S3 E9: Absolute Evil

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] This podcast is intended for mature audiences and discusses topics that could be triggering to some.

[11] Opinions expressed by guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of this podcast.

[12] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[13] All resources, books, and sources mentioned on the podcast can be found linked in the episode notes.

[14] Please note, names have been changed in the story for anonymity purposes.

[15] If you or someone you love is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[16] If you or someone you love is struggling with a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 24 -7 at 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[17] Please note some of today's episode involves suicidal ideation or or thoughts of suicide.

[18] Please take care when listening.

[19] Thank you.

[20] This past Sunday, December 15th, I interviewed Aunt Diane, aka Victoria's sister -in -law, Brad's aunt, and Ted's close friend, aka the one that spotted the affair between Ted and Patty, and the aunt that told CJ, Patty was a lying, cheating bitch.

[21] Not only did I learn so much about this story through this interview, but the family did as well.

[22] I'd like to thank Diane.

[23] for taking the time and energy to share her story with all of us.

[24] I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is, something was wrong.

[25] You think you know me, you don't know me with at home.

[26] Thinking of me, you don't know me well.

[27] Okay, so my name is Diane, and I am related to Ted, Victoria, and Brad.

[28] Victoria is my husband's sister.

[29] and Ted is his brother -in -law, and Brad is his nephew.

[30] I have known Ted and Victoria probably for 36 years.

[31] I have been married to Victoria's brother for 34 years.

[32] And I have probably been friends with Ted for, I'm going to say, 20 to 25 years.

[33] When I first met Ted, I actually did not like him.

[34] I thought he was arrogant, kind of conceited, and full of himself.

[35] And my husband, who has been friends with Ted, for probably 51 years, said you don't know him that well.

[36] You need to get a chance to know him, and I was just not going to have any of that.

[37] And I can remember one night, I couldn't tell you when it was.

[38] We were at a family get -together at Victoria's sister's house.

[39] And Ted was complaining about his back being stiff.

[40] He says, I need to walk.

[41] He's like, you want to walk with me?

[42] I said, sure.

[43] And they live in a kind of a small borough.

[44] And so we were walking, just started walking, and we started talking.

[45] And obviously all of a sudden I discovered that we had a whole lot of things in common.

[46] Obviously what we did, we were both in public safety.

[47] His political views were very similar to mine.

[48] and just his belief system was the same as mine and I was thinking myself why didn't I really like him you know I didn't under kind of didn't know what were that impression initial impression came from other than probably part of it was we were probably 10 or 12 years older at that point too from our first meeting so to describe him as a husband back then he was a good husband he was very attentive and he was very didn't missed anniversaries, didn't miss birthdays, kind of went over the top.

[49] Sometimes I thought for those things.

[50] And maybe that was just because my husband didn't do that stuff.

[51] And as a father, his kids were everything.

[52] I mean, they were.

[53] They were absolutely everything.

[54] So he, at that time, he was a very good husband and father.

[55] I had heard Victoria and Ted talk about Patty and Kurt, but I had never met them.

[56] And we were down there for a graduation party.

[57] in the early 2000s and I there was a lot of family from up north that were down there just for the party and I walked into the kitchen and I saw an interaction between Ted and Patty and I mean my radar went off my bells and whistles I thought what the heck is this and it probably lasted maybe a minute a minute and a half and I don't think they thought I was watching and mind you Everybody was getting ready for this party.

[58] We were helping getting ready.

[59] And there were other people in the kitchen that obviously didn't see this.

[60] But I saw it, you know, like loud and right up in my face.

[61] And then it ended.

[62] And I thought, there's something going on here.

[63] I don't know what's going on here.

[64] So probably I never said a word about it, you know.

[65] And again, Ted and I were becoming close as friends.

[66] I mean, he was in public safety.

[67] I was in public safety.

[68] And, you know, there were a lot of times that I had bad calls.

[69] he had bad calls and we would call each other and discuss that, you know, or one of those things, oh, you're not going to believe this shit, you know, just what people in public safety do, how we deal with stuff.

[70] So probably about nine months went by to the following February.

[71] And there was a Super Bowl, and he had called afterwards because his team won, and he was obviously had been drinking.

[72] And we got to talking, and, you know, we were always kind of busting on each other, you know, making fun of each other.

[73] You know, he was what he did, you know, super fireman, and I was, you know, in the other end of it, the dispatch end of it.

[74] And I can't remember what he said now, but I something to the effect of, oh, I don't know him as well as I thought I did.

[75] And I said, yeah, I do know you actually better than you think I do.

[76] But what are you talking about?

[77] And I said, Ted, what's going on with you and Patty?

[78] His reaction was, what do you mean?

[79] I said, there's something going on.

[80] I saw it with my own eyes.

[81] What did you see?

[82] And I told him what I saw.

[83] he was kind of quiet for a second and he's like if you saw that how many other people saw it I said I don't know I said what's going on and he confessed that they were having an affair to justify having his affair with Patty I don't know if he ever really justified it other than the fact that he wasn't happy at home you know Victoria did this Victoria did that I you know I didn't live there I kind of you know Patty was engaging and she was what's the word of very, like almost over the top nice, kind of sickening nice, I guess, if that's the way you want to put it.

[84] And she was very social, so I guess maybe that was part of the attraction for him.

[85] I'm not sure, actually.

[86] I never really understood it.

[87] The problem is I didn't have a lot of contact with them.

[88] When we would go down there to visit, if I saw them, it would be in a situation where there might have been like a graduation party or something to that effect.

[89] And my interaction with her was not a lot.

[90] I mean, her and her husband seemed, I guess, loving.

[91] But again, we were in a social situation.

[92] So there wasn't a lot of, you know, everybody's interacting with other people and there was friends and family there.

[93] And I would say she seemed like a best friend to Victoria.

[94] They were, you know, Victoria would tell me how they went shopping together or they went and did this together.

[95] They, they, the families would get together and have dinner together they you know that kind of stuff so it seemed like it was normal other than the fact that I knew that Ted and Patty had this thing going on you know under behind the scenes um at that point in time back in early 2000s we would vacation together we would go to the outer banks together um we did some other trips together to Cedar Point and some places in Ohio.

[96] And rather abruptly, I would say after that, probably, I don't know, 2007, eight somewhere in there, we didn't vacation together.

[97] It was all about the O 'Brien's and the bishops vacationing together to the Outer Banks.

[98] We just sort of were, you know, not included in that anymore.

[99] And I guess I thought that was a little odd, but at the time, you know, there were things going on in our lives.

[100] We were, you know, I had children graduating.

[101] You know, we had moved into a new home.

[102] There was a lot of stuff that went on with that.

[103] I guess I didn't really, at the time, think it was that odd.

[104] And so, again, I didn't have a whole lot of interaction with Patty other than at events where there were lots of other people.

[105] Over time, when Ted told me that, you know, he loved Patty and he couldn't stand Victoria.

[106] and there was a period of time when he was getting ready to talk about retirement.

[107] I guess that's when this kind of escalated, is when Ted was talking about retiring and how he had gotten to this program, which was called the drop program, and, you know, you have to retire at a certain age.

[108] You can't back out of that.

[109] Once you sign the papers to do that, you can't back out of that.

[110] And his whole thing was that he was going to get the drop program.

[111] He was going to retire after Patty's triplets graduated from high school.

[112] she was going to you know or Ted was going to leave Victoria then after the trip was graduated from high school Patty was going to leave Kurt and essentially they were going to get together and ride happily off into the sunset and move probably he said about 30 miles away from where they lived and I said to him so you're going to base your retirement on the fact that you think she's going to leave her husband and he said yes i said do you really want to do that because i don't think she is going to leave her husband and he said oh yes said yes you know we're in love this is what we're going to do i i i just told him i said this is not a good idea you know this just is not a good idea and over that time frame there too also you know he ted had convinced my husband and i that victoria was crazy she you know and there were a lot of issues between the Victoria and my husband and I, and I know that she thought I was having an affair with Ted.

[113] And I had told her, and my husband had told her numerous times, you know, that's not the case.

[114] That's not the case at all.

[115] I live almost 200 miles from them.

[116] So, you know, that was not what was going on.

[117] And she obviously knew something was going on because, you know, something, he was changing and acting different at home.

[118] And it just escalated from that time, that time on.

[119] escalated.

[120] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[121] I'm Sachi Cole.

[122] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[123] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[124] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[125] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[126] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[127] Follow scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[128] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on OneJ Plus.

[129] I'm Dan Tibersky.

[130] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[131] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[132] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[133] She's like, I can't.

[134] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[135] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[136] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[137] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[138] Well, you were holding something back.

[139] Intentionally.

[140] Yeah, yeah.

[141] Well, yeah.

[142] No, it's hysteria.

[143] It's all in your head.

[144] It's not physical.

[145] You're, oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[146] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[147] Or is it something else entirely?

[148] Something's wrong here.

[149] Something's not right.

[150] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[151] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[152] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[153] You can binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free.

[154] now by joining Wondry Plus.

[155] You know, listening to the podcast and looking back and reflecting now, there were just little seeds, little things that were planted over the course of years.

[156] It wasn't like a bang, that's it, this is what's going on.

[157] It was so subtle that none of us realized what she was doing, then, you know, she started contacting me via email, and I would email her back, and I'm thinking, you know, if he is going to leave Victoria.

[158] This guy is one of my best friends.

[159] You know, this is a sounding board for me when I go through bad stuff at work or I have bad calls and I don't want to lose my, I don't want to lose my relationship with him because, you know, he gets it.

[160] He gets what I do and I get what he does.

[161] And hopefully if this does happen and he leaves Victoria and he and Patty get together, we can rebuild that relationship with Victoria.

[162] You know, we can rebuild that.

[163] You know, maybe that's what she needs is to get away from him.

[164] You know, if they're not happy let's you know get separate get up get away from each other but um I could recall some of the emails between Patty and I how she was you know in love with him and she did care about him and I was like okay you know I believed her I did I bought the whole thing but I recall an incident I was taking a class back in probably 2014 I believe it was it was in February 2014 I was taking a class at a facility a few miles away from my home.

[165] And the class ran late one night.

[166] And I had no internet connection inside this building.

[167] I had no cell service inside this building.

[168] So I come out, and it must have been about 10 .30, quarter to 11, and there was a text message from her on my phone and said, please pray for, I don't remember which triplet had gotten injured at a volleyball game.

[169] And I did not call her.

[170] I didn't text her back.

[171] I thought, you know, and it was snowing and it was very bad.

[172] Rose were very bad, so it took me about 15 minutes to get home.

[173] And I got home shortly after 11 o 'clock.

[174] I thought, I'm not texting her now.

[175] She may be in the hospital with him or in bed or whatever.

[176] I will text her in the morning.

[177] And I did.

[178] I texted me the next morning.

[179] I said, I'm so sorry, I didn't respond last night.

[180] And you'd get your message till late.

[181] Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[182] Well, she told Ted that she saw what kind of friend I was.

[183] I didn't care about her or her kids.

[184] And I thought to myself, are you kidding me right now?

[185] Really?

[186] And I thought, you know something?

[187] I don't know.

[188] Yeah, this is not, something's wrong here.

[189] This isn't, this doesn't make any sense.

[190] So after that, I didn't have a whole lot of contact with her because I thought, you know, this is so high school.

[191] I am not playing these games with you.

[192] You know, I explained to you that I was inside a facility.

[193] I did not have self -service.

[194] I got out late.

[195] I was not going to text you at late that late at night.

[196] And I text you the next morning.

[197] So whatever, you know, and I was just sort of done with her.

[198] And I knew at that point that, you know, this is going nowhere.

[199] with them so when Victoria and Patty would converse via email at work a lot of things that Victoria would put in those emails would be about Ted what Ted last did last night what he said to Victoria you know if whatever fight they might have had or whatever might have incident might have happened she would email all that stuff to Patty then Patty would forward it to Ted and then Ted would forward it to me and I'm thinking to myself this is crazy.

[200] This is absolutely crazy.

[201] And it would start out with like, what did you get into last night when you got home?

[202] And it was stuff like, you know, I made dinner and we had, you know, hot dogs and french fries.

[203] And Patty would be like, oh, we had the same thing.

[204] Then she would tell Ted, well, she heard me saying that, so she's copying just exactly what I had for dinner.

[205] And I'm thinking of myself, who in the hell cares what who had for dinner last night?

[206] How was this important?

[207] I mean, It was insane stuff like that.

[208] Then it would be like after I had dinner, I did the dishes, and I did a load of laundry, and then I ran over to whatever department store because they were having a sale on some shirts I wanted, and Patty would forward it to Ted.

[209] See, she's going to the same stores I go to to buy the same shirts I'm buying.

[210] And I'm thinking of myself, nobody does this.

[211] This is not normal.

[212] I've got to tell you, I have close friends, and no one is emailing me and saying, what did you get into last night?

[213] What did you have for dinner?

[214] What did you do after dinner?

[215] What time did you go to the bathroom?

[216] That stuff does not go on with my close friends.

[217] And I just, and I told Ted, I said, you people are crazy down there.

[218] Absolutely crazy.

[219] You know, they would come up here.

[220] They would come up here for a weekend and they'd have to rush home on Sunday because they had to get back because they were supposed to watch a football game with A. O 'Brien.

[221] And it was just like, really?

[222] Their football game, you can listen to it on the radio on the way home.

[223] And it was just all the time stuff.

[224] like that and in time it seems like ted became obsessed with patty and what she was doing where they were going to the point where he ignored his own children now mind you at this time they were married and out of the house but he ignored his own children because he had to go to the triplets volleyball games you know across the state i can remember we had a um friend his son brad had a friend who is also a friend of my sons who was graduating from the academy And we went down to see him graduate, and I called Ted.

[225] I said, hey, we're going to be down that way.

[226] Can we crash at your house overnight?

[227] Oh, we're not going to be here.

[228] We have to go to wherever on the other side of the state to watch triplets play volleyball.

[229] And I'm thinking to myself, you've got to be kidding me. Because if you call me right now and said, hey, we're coming up here, and I had plans or something like that, I would cancel them immediately and open my door because I'd be so glad to see you.

[230] And I was kind of hurt over that.

[231] I really was.

[232] And I can remember towards the end of this whole thing in December when he I told him I said you have got to if you are not in love with your wife anymore you've got to tell her that and you've got to leave because at that time you know I said you know even though Victoria is you say she's crazy maybe she is crazy maybe she's not crazy she deserves to meet someone and be happy because she's got a long life ahead of her and you need to move on to because this is not healthy this whole thing is not healthy and he was still hanging on to the fact that that she was going to leave her husband and they were going to ride off into the sunset.

[233] And it was so painfully obvious that was not going to happen.

[234] And we got in a horrible fight over that.

[235] And he wouldn't speak to me for about three or four weeks.

[236] He wouldn't converse with me. Wouldn't text.

[237] Would call?

[238] Wouldn't email.

[239] Wouldn't anything.

[240] And I finally called him one day and I basically said, listen, now you don't acting like a little bitch because this is stupid.

[241] And that was in January.

[242] And after that, from January until when he took.

[243] his life, our relationship was very superficial.

[244] Hey, how are you?

[245] The snow up there?

[246] Yep.

[247] How much did you get?

[248] About two inches.

[249] Oh, we only got an inch.

[250] Oh, okay.

[251] What else is going on?

[252] Oh, nothing.

[253] All right, I'll talk to you later.

[254] And that's what it was like.

[255] It really was.

[256] I mean, I guess I'm really jumping forward, but I watched him become a shell of a human being for about the last, I'm going to say, a year or so.

[257] I literally watched him become a a shell of a human being, no emotions.

[258] No happiness, the sadness, no nothing, just going through the motions.

[259] And I told him a week before he did this, I had gone with a, my son, who is also a first responder in public safety, to a conference, a presentation by someone put on, it's called Helping Those Who Help Others, and it's all about taking care of the people who are in public safety because nobody helps us, and how prevalent suicide is among that.

[260] And I'm not kidding you, that was on a Tuesday night.

[261] And I called him on Wednesday morning.

[262] I said, but I went to see this last night.

[263] And because when I come out, when my son I come out, I said, does anybody fit that profile?

[264] There's like seven things.

[265] And my son looked and he was like, yeah, Uncle Ted.

[266] I was like, yeah, exactly.

[267] And I called him next morning.

[268] He said, man, you need to get some help.

[269] Go get some help.

[270] I'm fine.

[271] I'm fine.

[272] No one's going to get in my head of root around and open those files.

[273] You know that?

[274] I'm fine.

[275] I said, you are not fine.

[276] I said, I will come down there.

[277] you and go please go get help nope what didn't want to hear about it not going to have any of it and a week later he took his life so i kind of saw that one coming and tried to intervene but he just would not he didn't want to hear about it and you know he i'm sure he had some post -traumatic stress syndrome from being in public safety all those years but when he left and went to iraq and he came back it was so noticeable i just and i told him i said man you got to talk to somebody.

[278] I'm fine, I'm fine, blah, blah, blah.

[279] And I can remember when he came back, it was like in June he came back and we were up here at a restaurant eating breakfast.

[280] It was right before the 4th of July.

[281] And somebody on the other side of the restaurant dropped where those big, sick, heavy glasses, they put water and tea in.

[282] And I thought he was going to jump out of his skin.

[283] He was sitting right across me. I said, bud, you better go talk to somebody and gets your shit together because the 4th of July is coming up and you know what that means fireworks and you know I knew that he had been at a place where that the bombings were relentless and you know it was just all the time and his hearing was affected because of that he had you know ringing in his ears which was you know not repairable because of that and yeah when he came back and and I have to think that after he came back from Iraq that that's when I seemed like she just Patty just amped up her game, I guess, if you want to call it that.

[284] You don't think, I guess you don't, someone who's never experienced traumatic events like that don't really get that and don't think it's real and it is.

[285] It's really, it's, it's incredible how those events mess with your head.

[286] It smells, it's noises.

[287] it's words that people say the way they say them or it is it's crazy how that messes with your brain and if you don't know how to process them and even sometimes you do know how to process them how it it gets it takes control of you and it causes problems not only in your life but the people who are you know live with you your children your husband whoever and you know the unfortunate thing is is there is help out there but people are too proud to go get it or don't think it's going to work and it does work.

[288] I know I've been there.

[289] It does work.

[290] So you just got to find the right person.

[291] No, she never alluded to that, not one time, which kind of made my radar go off that she didn't talk about the end, what the end, what the outcome of all this would be.

[292] She never alluded to that.

[293] And it just seemed like after the trip was graduated from high school, it was only something else.

[294] her mother was sick or her son got into trouble or it was always something that she did not leave Kirk it was always something and I was like this is going nowhere you know and then she was insanely jealous of CJ and Ted's relationship I mean they were close they kind of had the same sense of humor they kind of like the same programs they kind of you know and they would you know joke about that stuff and talk about things they had seen on TV, episodes of movies or serieses that they followed.

[295] And it made her crazy.

[296] It made her crazy.

[297] So she started bashing.

[298] I guess her first victim was Victoria.

[299] And then she moved on to CJ.

[300] And she just, you know, she was, anytime they'd have some type of event, Kurt and Patty in time, they'd have some type of event at their house, which they had a lot of, you know, stuff, summer parties, whatever, winter parties.

[301] she would tell Ted how disrespectful CJ was.

[302] And I don't want her around.

[303] And he bought into it.

[304] He bought right into it.

[305] And in order for her to keep Ted away from CJ, she had to work on him with Brad because as long as Ted and Brad were close as a father and son should be, CJ was always going to be around.

[306] She was always going to be around.

[307] And I think part of it too was CJ started to see how Patty was and kind of called her out on some of that stuff because I saw some of those emails.

[308] And I can remember telling Ted, you know something?

[309] That is your son.

[310] And to think that a 40 or 50 -year -old woman is jealous of a 20 -some 30 -year -old girl is ridiculous.

[311] It is so high school and so immature, I can't even wrap my head around it.

[312] That is your daughter -in -law.

[313] so the relationship between CJ and Brad became very strained with my husband and I as well and honestly Brad was like I have two sons of my own but Brad was like a son to my husband I mean he was I said you know something he never did anything to me Ted I don't know what your issue was with him but Brad has never done anything to my husband and I so you know and I can remember my husband on the phone saying to him that is your flesh and blood, Ted.

[314] How can you do this?

[315] This woman is not worth it.

[316] You know, stop what you're doing.

[317] That is your son.

[318] And I can remember Ted saying, I'm not ready.

[319] I'm not ready to, you know, I'm not ready to rebuild that relationship.

[320] And, you know, hunting seasons would go by.

[321] And that was a big thing with the two of them.

[322] They did all that stuff together.

[323] And he just, you know, anytime that Brad was around, whether it be the holidays or whatever, he would twist everything that Brad said into what he wanted to hear because I can remember him telling me. I was like, Ted, that is not what he meant.

[324] I know that's not what he meant.

[325] That doesn't sound like Brad.

[326] Oh, yes, it is.

[327] Oh, yes, it is.

[328] You know, I talked to Patty and she said the same thing.

[329] I'm thinking of myself.

[330] Wow.

[331] Wow.

[332] This woman is, and I cannot tell you how many times I told Ted, I said, you think Victoria is crazy.

[333] I got news for you.

[334] Patty is a, you.

[335] You know, off the charts insane, which, of course, he didn't like him, you know, that would start another whole conversation, but yeah, I know.

[336] What just blows my mind is like how she is able to insidiously, she's in control, she's evil.

[337] She's evil.

[338] She has to be because I just, she was.

[339] The hold that she had on him and the way, it's just, she alienated.

[340] Victoria first, then she worked on C -Day and Brad, then she pretty much did a good job of alienating the relationship between my husband and I and Ted, and she was working on Ted's daughter next.

[341] That was, she definitely, I mean, she had her sight set on his daughter.

[342] I'm telling you what, I was just like, holy shit.

[343] And I told him, I said, do you see what's going on here?

[344] She has isolated you from everyone that you care about and loves you.

[345] she did it with your wife, she did it with your son, she's trying to do it with my husband and I, and now she's working on your daughter, and it was the same thing.

[346] He had three grandchildren, she's not a good mother, did you see what she did, did you see what she posted on Facebook, did you see when they were at the house, how she pawned off her responsibilities, or the son -in -law, how he didn't do this, it was so ridiculous, so ridiculous, and he got right into it.

[347] He was like, oh, I know, I know, I know, and I told him that.

[348] So now, now your daughter's next.

[349] Now she's going to start working on her.

[350] And he, well, she is.

[351] She is that way.

[352] I said, this is your daughter.

[353] These are your grandchildren.

[354] Are you kidding me right now?

[355] I just, it's just how, I just don't understand how she, how it was worth it to him.

[356] You know what I mean?

[357] I don't know.

[358] And I don't know that anybody knows the answer, but it's like, at the end when I, at the end, when I told him, I said, she is not going to leave Kurt for you.

[359] You understand that.

[360] And I think he realized it.

[361] I think that might have had something to do with, you know, how it ended.

[362] He's like, I don't want to be alone in my own apartment, sitting around in my underwear, eating cheese balls, watching TV reruns.

[363] I said, well, you know, you're going to have to make a choice here.

[364] You're either going to have to go to counseling and rebuild your relationship with Victoria or you're going to have to leave her and move on.

[365] Oh, yeah, right.

[366] And now I can see that.

[367] You know, birthday parties, I'll be standing one quarter and Victoria will be standing the other corner.

[368] I said, oh, you created this monster, you know.

[369] I think he was concerned about Victoria getting half of his pension.

[370] The house they had, you know, bought and remodeled.

[371] And, you know, there was a lot of, you know, marital assets and things there.

[372] I think he was concerned about that because he said, I'm not going to get half of my pension.

[373] I said, well, she's going to get half of your pension if you leave and you go with Patty, you know.

[374] And, you know, in the end, he talked in circles because none of it made any sense it just it just you know it just didn't make any sense part of the other thing too was you know there were some of the questions he says did we ever think about trying to tell you know victory about this and you know there were parts of me that wanted to tell her and her brother wanted to tell her as well but it's like he said my my husband he said you know she's not going to believe us that her best friend is having a affair with her husband and you and i are going to be the assholes because ted will never talk to us again she'll never talk to us again they'll go merrily on their way and you and i else to be sitting here up north with you know estranged family and there were times over the course of those years that victoria and i had conversations we had e -mailed each other and you know she and i told her i don't know how many times i told her victoria i am not having an affair with your husband you obviously don't know me i would never do that to my family and i would never do that to yours it's not me it's not me i am not having an affair with your husband i can't tell you how many times I repeated that to her.

[375] And after she found out what, you know, what obviously was going on, and she looked at me, she said, Diane, I don't know how many times she said to me, it's not me. She goes, I never got it.

[376] I never picked up on that.

[377] So I, you know.

[378] I wonder if Patty was planting that seed.

[379] Yes, I do believe she was.

[380] I do.

[381] I actually, and I said to Victoria's sense, and I said, what were they saying to you about me that made you think it was me?

[382] said, you know, it was just little things.

[383] It was when I would see you and Ted together.

[384] It seemed like when they would come up here or we would go down there, we hadn't see each other for a month, six months, however long it was.

[385] She said it seemed like the hug was a little extra longer.

[386] Or it was like, and I looked at her and I said to her, there are only three people in this world that have reassuring hugs.

[387] And that was Ted, my husband and another person.

[388] and who I am very good friends with.

[389] It's a hug that it's going to be okay.

[390] You're safe here.

[391] This is a shelter.

[392] I don't know if you've ever experienced that before, but Ted was one of those people when he gave you that hug.

[393] That was very, it was a safe place.

[394] Just playing everybody against each other.

[395] It's just like you said, pure evil.

[396] And what was your impression of Kurt?

[397] Like, their dynamic, if you can speak to that at all, if you recall?

[398] No, I didn't, I didn't, know him well i really didn't more of my interaction the emails was with patty so i really can't say i he just he seemed like a dud he was just sort of there you know what i mean it was like if we were at any functioned just kind of talked like and it was just mundane you know oh yeah oh yeah the steelers played the other night did you see that tack or did you see that touchdown he just didn't seem like he had a lot to say for the most part i can't say that I ever sat down and had a meaningful or lengthy conversation with him because I did not.

[399] The interesting thing is the Johnson, they were a lot of those functions too.

[400] And Mr. Johnson, he was sort of in your face.

[401] Want to be part of the conversation, want to know what was going on.

[402] Hey, how are you?

[403] I'm good.

[404] Oh, yeah, what's been going on?

[405] You know, I know what your profession is and what's been going up there north.

[406] And it's just like, dude, back off a little bit.

[407] You know, he just came on so strong.

[408] And I will never forget he left his employment with the fire department and became an employee of the state in the fire commissioner's officer, whatever he does.

[409] And there was something going on up here with one of the fire departments that were getting some type of a law.

[410] I don't know exactly what happened, but he was up here for that signing of paperwork.

[411] It was kind of a big event.

[412] And he showed up at my place of employment.

[413] And he walked in the door.

[414] And I initially, I recognized him, but I put a name to the face.

[415] And he's like, hi, have you been?

[416] You know, and I was like, oh, my God.

[417] This was after I knew what was going on and had a confirmation.

[418] And I was, Ted, was pretty certain that Patty was messing around with Mr. Johnson, too.

[419] And I mean, my radar went off.

[420] My hair stood up on the back of my neck.

[421] My gut is sick healing in my stomach.

[422] I was like, what the hell is this and why are you here?

[423] And he wanted to be all chummy, chummy.

[424] And fortunately for me, I was busy.

[425] I said, listen, I'm not trying to be rude, but I am really busy right now.

[426] It's good to see you.

[427] And he went on and talked to several other people in my office who were kind of involved in this fire department thing too.

[428] But it was just like, I called Ted.

[429] I said, what the hell?

[430] And he said to me, are you kidding me?

[431] He showed up at where you work?

[432] I said, yeah, yeah, he showed up here where I'm working.

[433] He said, did you talk to him?

[434] And I said, no, not.

[435] No, I said, virtually nothing.

[436] He said, he's sufficient for information.

[437] I said, well, I don't know what he's doing here, but I'm telling you what, my spiky senses are going off.

[438] And this is, this is not cool.

[439] No, he thought that, he thought initially it was flirting.

[440] There was a lot of flirting going on.

[441] But at the end, he did.

[442] He suspected that there was some messing around going on there.

[443] He absolutely did.

[444] And I told him, I said, well, she was messing around with you.

[445] She would, what makes you think she wouldn't do the same thing with him?

[446] I mean, come on.

[447] She's a cheater and a liar, so, you know.

[448] The one thing it made it easy was these guys worked shift work.

[449] So when the husband was working, Ted was off.

[450] And when Ted was working, the husband was off.

[451] So it was shift work.

[452] So it was easy for Ted to have interaction with her because Kurt would be on shift.

[453] and they worked opposite so that made it easier and it's like they said it was so subtle over time that it seemed normal Ted was very smooth he was very charismatic he was charming and and he was flirtatious he was flirtatious I saw him do that with other women you know and it was a kid say it was harmless you know what I mean it wasn't he'd meet someone and he would be like oh you know and all bubbly and that would be the last interaction at last interaction he'd never see that person again you know I look at this bat right now it looks like a bad Jerry Springer episode I swear to God I don't think this is the first time that Ted was the first one I don't think so I think that he is used to this and for the sake of his family and obviously the marital assets their pensions as well I think he just puts up with it and tolerates it I honestly believe that I really do because he's very passive I would yeah that would be the word I used to describe Kurt's passive He just tolerates it and takes it.

[454] I had told my husband, I said, listen, one of these days, and I had said this for probably three or four months, I said, we're going to get a call.

[455] Ted's going to have killed himself.

[456] And he said, nah, no, because, you know, as public safety, we went, we dealt with suicide.

[457] We dealt with this on a daily basis, what it was intentional, unintentional, and unfortunately, our way of dealing with it, we joked about it.

[458] We joked about it.

[459] And, you know, it's like my husband said, he goes, if anyone knows, what a weapon will do, it's Ted.

[460] And he, because he owns so many, and he fired so many.

[461] I mean, he was very familiar with weapons, all kinds.

[462] Handguns, you know, long guns, assault rifles, whatever.

[463] He was very familiar with what they could do.

[464] So, that Wednesday, I was in a meeting with my boss and one of the other employees came back and said, hey, your husband just called.

[465] You need to call him right away.

[466] thought, oh, that's not good, you know.

[467] And in my head immediately, my parents are elderly.

[468] I'm thinking, okay, something happens with one of my parents or, you know, and then I'm thinking, why would they call it along?

[469] Why not me?

[470] Something happened to one of my kids, you know, my oldest son works in construction and, you know, is in buildings and on high places.

[471] And my other son is a state employee and, you know, is on the road all the time driving, you know, big trucks and stuff.

[472] And then my boss's line starts ringing.

[473] And he answers that and he says, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's your husband I said okay and I said hello and he said you know um excuse me he said I'm coming up to get you I'm taking myself what do you need to come up to me I said what's wrong and I could tell by his voice something was wrong he said I'm just coming up to get with you coming up to get you need to be ready to leave work I said what is going on and he told me he said you know Ted killed himself and I uh I couldn't even process that.

[474] I dropped the phone and fell into the floor.

[475] And my boss got on the phone and asked what had happened.

[476] And he told him, he said, okay, she'll be ready to go.

[477] And he was up there in about maybe five minutes.

[478] I don't know.

[479] I'm kind of a blur.

[480] And he got ready and we knew it.

[481] We came home and threw a bunch of stuff in clothes, basket and was on our way down there.

[482] And I told him, I said, are you sure that he's dead?

[483] And he said, yes, Brad called me and he's gone.

[484] And I said, are you sure that he did it?

[485] Are you sure that God forgive me?

[486] Victoria didn't come home and find him and Patty and she did it.

[487] He said, no, he said that he did it.

[488] And then I said, are you sure Patty didn't do it?

[489] And he said, I don't know.

[490] I don't know.

[491] We're going to have to get these answers when we get down there.

[492] So, you know, About a two -and -a -half or two -hour and 45 -minute drive was about, I don't know, maybe two hours and ten minutes.

[493] And as we got closer to Brad and CJ's house, I told my husband, I said, you need to get your shit together.

[494] I said, I don't know what we're walking into here, but I'm telling you right now.

[495] He's like, well, I'm going to tell them what's going on.

[496] I said, no, we cannot tell them that right now.

[497] I said, we cannot tell what we know.

[498] So this funeral has got to be dignified for this family.

[499] I said, you, John, we can't do this.

[500] We can't do this to this family right now.

[501] No, this is not the time to do this.

[502] No. So as we pulled in the driveway, I looked at him and I said, you got your shit tight.

[503] And that's the one thing people in public safety.

[504] You know, you better have your shit tight.

[505] You better have it tight.

[506] And, you know, there's no time for emotions.

[507] It's a process.

[508] There's a checklist in your head of stuff you've got to do because you've got to get this job done.

[509] And that's how he and I went in there.

[510] and it was hard it was really hard you know and Victoria was sitting on a couch a mess and she is blaming herself she says I was pressuring him this morning to go to counseling with me and you know I told her my husband told her you know no it's not your fault it's not your fault you know it's not your fault this is not your fault and and Brad I had absolutely broke my heart.

[511] It was his fault because he was estranged from his father and he didn't try to rebuild.

[512] And he just kind of said, you know, I've tried everything.

[513] I don't know what else to try and kind of threw his hands up in the air.

[514] And I said, this is not your fault.

[515] I am telling you.

[516] And he is just such a mess.

[517] And I, you know, he's not hearing me. I could tell you wasn't listening to me because he was just, you know, and I finally got his attention.

[518] And I said, this is not your fault.

[519] I promise you, this is not your fault.

[520] Do you understand me?

[521] And he kind of looked at me like, what are you talking about, you know?

[522] And then it was gone.

[523] That moment was gone.

[524] And it was, it was, it was bad, you know.

[525] And I knew he was going to do this.

[526] I just didn't think he would.

[527] Does that make sense?

[528] I totally know what you mean.

[529] It's like you weren't surprised, but you also are shocked.

[530] Yeah.

[531] Right.

[532] And I think a lot of times people who do this, I, you know, I'm hurting and nothing makes the hurt go away.

[533] And this is the only way out.

[534] And whether it's hanging, pills, a gun, I don't sometimes think that they completely understand what is going to happen when you.

[535] put that rope around your neck and you kick the chair out from under any of you or if you take that bottle of pills or if you pull that trigger but ted knew i know he knew what was going to happen when you pulled that trigger he saw it in his job so he knew what was going to happen and i just cannot wrap my head around the fact that he was okay with that this will be okay this is the way i'm going to do this i just freaking cannot accept that.

[536] I just, I just was like, this isn't real.

[537] This is not real.

[538] I am going to wake up and this is not going to be real.

[539] This is just not real.

[540] But it was.

[541] It was real.

[542] The Thursday, that was on a Wednesday, Thursday morning, they were getting ready to go to the funeral home to make arrangements for his funeral.

[543] And Victoria was in the bedroom speaking to her employer about the days off that she needed.

[544] And the detective showed up at the house, seek with her.

[545] And let me back up.

[546] That's not right.

[547] She was in the bedroom talking to her employer.

[548] She got off the phone and she said to me, she goes, look at this.

[549] I want you to read this and tell me what you think of this.

[550] Because Victoria and I had kind of mended our fences a little bit.

[551] We weren't super close, but we had kind of a conversation after in the summer of 2014.

[552] And I said to her, I apologize for some of the stuff I had said about her, some of the stuff I did.

[553] And I felt really bad about it.

[554] I had some self -reflection, and I just was like, this is not right what I did to her.

[555] This is just not right.

[556] So we were not in a great place, but we were in a better place than we had been.

[557] So when she said to me, I want you to look at myself and look this message for Patty to me, and it said something to the fact of, Kurt found text messages between me and Ted and me and Mr. Johnson that weren't exactly what they should have been.

[558] I can't remember the wording exactly, but essentially saying, there's something going on here.

[559] something that there was things going on between Ted and Patty that were not right and she's admitting this to Victoria and I looked at her and I said to her she's like what do you think of that I said um I don't really know what to think what do you think about it she's like well I don't you know I just you know I just do you think they were having an affair I said well the more important thing is do you think they were having an affair and she looked at me she's like no no No, no, I'm thinking myself, oh my God.

[560] So the doorbell rang, the detective came in, he came into the bedroom to speak to Victoria.

[561] I went out and brought him into her, and she says to me, don't go in what you're staying in here.

[562] I'm thinking of myself, oh, please, why?

[563] Why do I have to, you know, I don't want to do this?

[564] And so he's asking her all these questions.

[565] And one of the things he asked, he says, do you guys having miracle problems?

[566] And she said, yeah, there was some marital problems and do you think he was having an affair?

[567] And she's like, no, I don't.

[568] And I'm thinking of myself, holy hell.

[569] you have the proof in a text message on your phone and my brain is screaming Victoria wake the hell up what else do you need you know and I'm thinking of myself oh my God she is not going to believe us when we tell her this so um they went to the funeral home I can't and I could not wrap my head around the fact that she had the proof on her phone she didn't either she didn't read it right or she didn't interpret it right which I'm sure, you know, at that point in time, she was a wreck.

[570] So my husband went with her and some other family members to the funeral home.

[571] And I remember that she said to me, I need you to go over to the house and I knew you to get the gun that's and Ted's truck out of there and there.

[572] And there was something in the house she needed.

[573] I said, okay, she said, I can't go over there and do this.

[574] I said, fine.

[575] Well, this other friend of the family who was friends with my son and her son, who was a firefighter there, he was there.

[576] I said, you're going with me. So we get in the car and we're driving, it's a short distance.

[577] And he can't wrap his head around this because he was, Ted was this kid's assistant.

[578] You know, he was his supervisor on the ship he was on.

[579] He was on Ted's trick, as they called it.

[580] He's like, I can't believe he did this.

[581] I can't believe he did this.

[582] Why would he do this, Steve?

[583] Why would he do this?

[584] I just can't believe he did this.

[585] And he's rattled on and I finally looked at him and I said, I know why he F and did it.

[586] And I'll tell you why he F and did it.

[587] and I unloaded on that poor kid about the whole affair thing.

[588] I said, and you need to keep your freaking mouth shut until this is over because me and my husband need to be the ones tell him this.

[589] And he's just sitting there like, holy shit.

[590] And he looks at me. He goes, so much makes sense now that happened to leave her ready to go to volleyball games.

[591] Her stop and buying dropping off pot roast.

[592] him leaving to go do something and we see him over by the place where she worked he's like oh my god i was like huh amazing isn't it and i mean he i felt bad after i looked at him and i unloaded on this this kid he just looks and he's like oh oh you know and he looks and he's like wow wow wow i got nothing else i said yeah yeah you know crazy so we go back to the house and that evening The wives were coming over to bring some stuff, food and some things like the customary do when you know, someone in your family has died and she was going to be, Patty was going to be with him.

[593] And I looked at my husband.

[594] He's like, I'm going to, I am going to spill my guts.

[595] I said, you are not going to do anything.

[596] Not right now.

[597] No, this can't happen right now.

[598] And I remember her coming in and she always had that look on her face.

[599] like poor me oh my gosh this is going to affect my kids so bad and she's got his shoulders hunched up and she's just like oh you know she went to my husband first and hugged him and said I'm sorry and he just looked at her and then she came to me and she hugged me she tried to hug me and I mean I my body was rigid there was no hugging back there was no I wanted to throw up I was so sick to my stomach, I thought I was going to throw up.

[600] I mean, I absolutely thought I was going to vomit when she touched me. I could have spewed venom on her.

[601] I swear to God, I was so upset and so angry and blaming her for doing this because I knew she had something to do with this.

[602] And, you know, they come in with all this stuff and she's standing there laughing and talking about her new granddaughter that was born and I'm just seeing her look at her like you are un frigging believable what a piece of work I it just I couldn't process that I just could not process that in my head I I mean I Friday morning I told my husband I said we need to get the hell out of here I said I got to go home I have got to go home we have got to go home, take care of our dogs, get them to the kennel because we had to come back down for the funeral in the beginning of the next week.

[603] And I said, we've got to get out of here.

[604] We got to get, I can't do this.

[605] We've got to get out of here.

[606] And it was in like, I mean, we literally ran out of there to get the hell out of there because I just needed to get away from it.

[607] And yeah, so the whole way home, we just, you know, we just talked about what had happened.

[608] And, you know, and the more you talk about it, the less sense it made.

[609] Does that, does that make sense?

[610] yes i knew that he had taken his life i absolutely knew that but i knew that morning i text him and he did not text me back usually if we text in the morning you know hey how's it going today you know whatever um usually he would text back and say hey i'm busy i'll talk to you later okay fine you know um or hey i'm in needing to say i'll talk you tomorrow okay fine whatever and there was nothing and i got very busy at work and i thought it was a little odd that i didn't hear back from him So I text him again.

[611] It must have been around 10 .30, 11 o 'clock.

[612] You know, some jab like, hey, asshole, you know, are you so busy?

[613] You can't at least say, hey.

[614] And I got nothing.

[615] And, again, I was busy at work that morning.

[616] And I, you know, but I knew there was something triggered this.

[617] Something happened that night or that morning that triggered this.

[618] And I am 100 % certain.

[619] I would bet everything I own that.

[620] she had something to do with this that morning.

[621] He talked to her.

[622] I know she talked to him and said something because it wouldn't have been the first time that she said to him, I wish you were dead.

[623] I know that she said that to him in the past.

[624] And I know that she said that.

[625] I'm willing to bet a large amount of money that she said that to him that morning.

[626] I wish you were dead.

[627] You've ruined my life because she told him that before.

[628] You've ruined my life.

[629] You've turned me into somebody I didn't want to be.

[630] I hate you.

[631] I wish you were dead.

[632] I guarantee that some type of that conversation happened that morning.

[633] almost 100 % certain of it and he said okay okay fine you want me dead i'll be dead almost like a bully thing i don't believe he did this to punish her i believe he did this because she wanted him to she put that she planted that seed he realized he had he caused so much damage between him his son and himself he caused so much damage with his wife he caused so much damage with his daughter there was starting to be things there with my husband and I, I think that the fact that they were having a fair was going to come out, and he couldn't face that from the people that he worked with.

[634] I think he was getting to retire, was going to retire at the end of that year, and he was going to lose his identity.

[635] I mean, let's face it, people in public safety have huge egos.

[636] That's part of our problem, and he was going to lose identity.

[637] He wasn't going to be the hero fireman anymore, you know.

[638] I think there were so many things that played into it, but I am.

[639] I'm 100 % certain she planted that seed that morning.

[640] He said, I hate you.

[641] I hate what you've done to my life.

[642] You've turned me into someone I don't even know, and I wish you were dead, because she said that to him before.

[643] He told me, she said that to him.

[644] I don't know what he recognized at the end.

[645] I don't even know who he was at the end.

[646] The last four or five months, he was, I don't know who he was.

[647] He was, he looked like a walking skeleton with sunken eyes.

[648] just going through the movements of going to work, coming home, taking the garbage out, eating dinner, and just doing the things you're doing them because they were so ingrained to his brain.

[649] You know, you go out, you start your car.

[650] You don't think about that process.

[651] It's just something you do because you've done it so many times.

[652] So his life at the end was like that.

[653] He just did it because that's what he did every day for the past 30 years.

[654] And I told him that.

[655] I said, do you have no emotions?

[656] They were up here in January for a funeral.

[657] His uncle or someone died.

[658] And he came in my house and he sat here and he offered.

[659] for nothing to the conversation.

[660] He just kind of was there sitting, you know, and he had his parents with him because it was his mother's brother.

[661] And there was, he just, it was like, okay, I brought them up here.

[662] It was the right thing to do because her brother died.

[663] Okay, it was its time, and they'd get back, you know, and it was, there was just nothing.

[664] There was just no emotions, nothing.

[665] That's almost like you turned into Kurt, turned it to a dog.

[666] Probably worse.

[667] Probably worse.

[668] Yes, I think that was Sunday morning.

[669] She called me and she was hysterical and she said that they were there and the O 'Brien's there and how Patty was going on about, she didn't know how her son is going to deal with this because he looked up to Ted so much with Brad standing there who's been estranged for his father for well over a year, possibly longer now.

[670] And she was crying and she said, Diane, there's something, please tell me. She goes, do I have a rat in my house?

[671] I said, you absolutely do have a rat in your house.

[672] And if I were you, I'd throw her ass out.

[673] She's like, how am I going to do it?

[674] I said, go in there, tell them, get out.

[675] This is not the time for you.

[676] This is our family.

[677] Get the hell out of my house.

[678] And, you know, that's not who CJ is.

[679] I mean, she's not.

[680] I don't think she did that.

[681] I think she was, you know, respectful.

[682] And I, you know, I said, yeah, you got a rat in your house.

[683] You absolutely do.

[684] Then shortly after that Brad called and said, we weren't supposed to come back down until anyway Brad called and said but you please come back down now please come back down now I was like okay let me see and get my dog into the cattle unfortunately I was so again we threw our stuff in a suitcase and went flying down there and he and my youngest son went down with us and we got there and Brad and my son went out in the garage out back and that was kind of the place that the guys went to deal with it I guess And there were some counselors that came from the FDNY and spoke with them.

[685] And my husband went out there that evening.

[686] And CJ and I were in the house in Victoria had gone to bed.

[687] And it was late.

[688] It was very late.

[689] And her and I were talking in her and Brad's bedroom.

[690] We were sitting around the bed talking.

[691] And she said, will you tell me what is going on?

[692] Because she knew that my husband and I knew something.

[693] And I told her, I said, you cannot repeat any of this until after this funeral is over.

[694] and I told her what was going on and she just sat there like oh my and she's like I know it you know like all these things that she had been thinking or feeling but couldn't put her finger on it or confirm it or didn't have you know confirmation of it and she said you have to tell Brad and Victoria I said we're going to we are going to but it has to be after this funeral this has to be a dignified event for this family it just has to be for the department for the community for the friends it has to be a dignified event It absolutely, you know, and she agreed, you know.

[695] So I remember at the calling hours on that evening, on Monday evening, the O 'Brien finally showed up.

[696] And CJ and I were standing next to each other.

[697] And I could see her whole body stiffen up, and my body got very rigid and stiff and like, oh, my God, how are we going to get through this?

[698] And my youngest son, who was also aware of what had happened, because I had told him about the whole thing, And he came over and he basically positioned himself between me, CJ and the O 'Brien's and the line of the people were coming through.

[699] And he looked at both of us and said, not now.

[700] This is not happening right now.

[701] And, you know, CJ and I were both sort of like, oh, okay, okay, okay, okay, you know.

[702] And she came through and her husband came through.

[703] And it was, and my husband had to leave the room because he was so upset.

[704] He left the room and went outside.

[705] And after it was all over and the people had kind of cleared out and we were talking, it was just my youngest son and my husband and I, he was so furious.

[706] And he said, did you see what Kurt did?

[707] I said, apparently, I didn't.

[708] I wasn't paying attention.

[709] He said, there was honor guards on each side of his casket.

[710] He said, he turned his back to that casket.

[711] He goes, you don't ever do that.

[712] Turn your back on your comrade who has, you know, died.

[713] He goes, you don't ever do that.

[714] In the military, in the fire department, you don't ever do that.

[715] And he's like, what a piece of shit.

[716] And, you know, we were kind of like, wow, I obviously didn't see that, or also I wasn't paying attention, or did see it, didn't realize it was going on.

[717] And he was absolutely furious about that.

[718] So the next day, we went, you know, we did the funeral thing, and we were going into the chapel there where the funeral was going to be, and Victoria was all about having new Brines up there.

[719] They've got to be up here.

[720] They're like family.

[721] They've got to be up here.

[722] And Brad is like, mom, my husband and I, they're going to sit behind us.

[723] That's where they're going to be.

[724] No, this is for the O 'Brien.

[725] Just for the O 'Brien.

[726] And my husband looked at her and said, the O 'Brien can sit back there.

[727] We're family.

[728] Now sit down and let's get, let's do this.

[729] And, you know, we did the whole service.

[730] And she sat back there, not beside her.

[731] her husband, not beside Kurt, with a couple people between them.

[732] Afterwards, she basically, I don't know where she disappeared to, because when we were leaving, there was a fire truck with, you know, leaving the procession with the hearse behind it, and there were people lined along the sidewalk, because she was nowhere to be found, and I thought, what?

[733] What?

[734] So typical.

[735] You know, go run and hide the other way, because I'm pretty sure she knew what was coming.

[736] She absolutely knew it was coming.

[737] So we get up here up north, and he was buried in a cemetery.

[738] up here and I thought it was very interesting that they did not come for as close as they were and she said they were the families did everything vacation you don't come up for the final services at the cemetery are you kidding me really she struck him with her motor vehicle she had been under the influence and she left him there in january 2022 local woman karen reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend boston police officer john o 'keef it was a last alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[739] What happens next?

[740] Depends on who you ask.

[741] Was it a crime of passion?

[742] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[743] This was clearly an intentional act.

[744] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[745] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[746] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent.

[747] one of their own from going down.

[748] Everyone had an opinion.

[749] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[750] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[751] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[752] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[753] Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[754] And, you know, it was snowing.

[755] It was snowing and blowing.

[756] It was so cold at that sanitary which is on top of the hill.

[757] And I thought to myself, you know, this is so fitting.

[758] Just a cold, terrible, cold day.

[759] Your life ended this way.

[760] You alone, now you're going to be up here atop this hill alone in the ground.

[761] This is, this is poetic justice, I guess, you know?

[762] I don't know.

[763] It was, we came back to the house, and I don't know even what transpired.

[764] I don't know.

[765] But the next thing I knew, Brad and C .J. and Victoria, and their Brad's sister, their daughter was staying here.

[766] And Brad and C .J. had come up to the second floor of my house for the bedroom where they were staying.

[767] And Brad called me. It's like, yeah, I came up.

[768] He's like, what the hell is going on?

[769] And I told him.

[770] He's like, we need to tell my mom.

[771] He's like, I know that.

[772] I know that.

[773] I know that and there were some other people here and they left and it must have been I don't know probably seven o 'clock at night and we went down in our basement which is like a man cave of bringing in the woodburger down there it's very cozy and comfortable down there and C .J. Brad came down and his daughter came down and her husband and their grandchildren had been in bed already.

[774] It was been a long day and we're sitting down there and my husband said that Victoria's like you need to come down and he goes and talked to you and she came over and she sat down and she sat down.

[775] She's crying, you know, and he's like, put his arm around, and he's like, you know, I got something I get, we have to tell you.

[776] And she's like, what's that?

[777] And he said, you know, this was not your fault.

[778] She was, yeah, I think it might have been my fault.

[779] He's like, no, it wasn't.

[780] No, this is not your fault.

[781] And Brad said to, too, Mom, you need to listen to what I'll go, you know, what he's going to say to you.

[782] You need to listen to this.

[783] And he told her.

[784] He said, you know, Ted and Patty have been having an affair for years.

[785] And she just looked at him.

[786] She looked at him.

[787] she's like no they weren't he's like yes they were victoria yes they were it's been going on for years she kind of sat there she looked at him she looked at me and i shook my head yeah yeah she took her cell phone to try and she was just i'm calling her right now and brad's like no you're not you're never going to have any contact with her again and she just kind of sat there and she you could see the anger coming over her.

[788] It was like coming from the bottom of her feet, up to her legs, up to her stomach, into her face, and her face got red, and she just lost her shit and whipped her cell phone across the room and bounced it off the wall and started screaming and bawling and carrying on, and it was like, let her get it out.

[789] You know, you just got to let her, you've got to let this happen.

[790] You've got to get this out.

[791] And after she calmed down a little bit, she's like, how do you know this?

[792] and John told her some of the stuff that we knew and she's like I just I can't believe this I can't believe this you know and she looked at me and I had obviously access to all kinds of emails stuff that she had told Patty that only Patty would know that I knew and she looked at it and she's like how in the hell do you know that I said because you told Patty Patty Ted told me she's like oh my God I was like yeah everything you told Patty, she told Ted, and everything, if you came home from work one night and Ted was nice to you and you told Patty that, Ted paid health work the next day.

[793] If you came home and that evening you and Ted were romantic in the bedroom, you told Patty, you thought there was hope for your marriage, and then Ted suffered the wrath of that.

[794] She's like, oh my God, I was like, yeah.

[795] And I mean, I think we were up to four or five o 'clock in the morning discussing this stuff.

[796] It was, there was.

[797] so much energy and so much truth that was expelled in that basement that night, it was just like, it was, I don't know about them, but it was healing for me because I had had all that shit bottled up inside of me and had been accused for so long that I was the one that I finally was able to say, I wanted the one, you know, I wasn't me. Have you had any contact with Patty or Mr. Johnson or anybody aside from your family within the situation after the services?

[798] The only contact I had with Patty was the detective told me to send a text message to him, to Brad, to Patty, and to Kurt saying that there would be no other communication, all communication would say.

[799] ceased no social media no nothing and if it if there were any type of communication that there would be um consequences for that there would be legal steps taken to so that you know she because we didn't know what patty was capable or what she was going to you know victoria was in such a fragile state at that point right then we didn't know what she would try because we all realized it's what she was that was the last um conversation and i received no reply from patty or kurt on that nothing other than a confirmation detective yes that the message went out i i can't even put into words you know and i always told my husband i said you know something it's going to be you and me telling her this story and he said i know you know i know um but i know that my husband was so torn between that but the biggest thing that stuck with him is like she is not going to believe us and she wouldn't have i don't think she would have believed us i really don't think she would have because patty would have never done that to her patty was her best friend in the whole world Patty was there for her all the time and I listened to that and I'm thinking myself bullshit you know and she didn't you know and she her relationship with my husband and I wasn't good so she would have I'm sure that I don't know what she would have done but I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have believed this I I I do I look back on this whole thing now and I can remember saying to myself after we told Brad and CJ and their daughter and Victoria what happened and all the absolute gory details because I had to pull emails from my email at work and send the detective.

[800] I had to talk to the detective about what was going on.

[801] And Brad alluded to all that stuff, the detective confronted her, and she admitted and all that stuff.

[802] But I, honestly, and I've had this conversation with Victoria, she should hate, she should hate me, and she doesn't, I, and I have said to myself, the few times I've been up to the cemetery, I said to Ted, I said, you definitely.

[803] underestimated Victoria because I think Ted thought she would go crawl up in a hole somewhere and just with her away to nothing you know I really do I think he thought that and she she hasn't I have watched Victoria absolutely come to life again she walked into my house here it's been I don't know it's been months ago I can't give you a exact but she walked in she was smiling I looked at her and I thought oh my god she's going to be okay she was happy she was living life she was enjoying life she was doing what she wanted when she wanted how she wanted and Ted wasn't at home tell her you can't do that I don't like how you're doing that you're not doing that right you're crazy you're insane you go to the counselor that all ended that all ended it was like the bond that the two of them had on her was kind of and all of a sudden she realized like I can breathe again I can breathe again and I I am so I am so proud of her I am thankful that she and I and my husband have a great relationship it's incredible it really is incredible it is it's amazing and that Brad and CJ are back in our life again because the interesting thing is Ted and Patty successfully drove a wedge between Brad and C .J. and me and my husband.

[804] He successfully drew a wedge between my boys and Brad and C .J. And I don't even know how the hell that happened.

[805] She wanted him to herself.

[806] She wanted to suck the life out of him and isolate him.

[807] You talk about abuse.

[808] She is a master.

[809] I mean, a freaking master at this.

[810] And which leads to be believed this is not the first time she's ever done in.

[811] It's certainly not going to be the last.

[812] yeah she's still doing it to mrs johnson mrs johnson is the new victoria and now she's probably got more energy than ever to be stuck in the life i am you know and who knows who else she's dating but like you said it's like the thing you said about the shifts oh my god like the way you put that just like really helped my brain understand it because with with a narcissist or a sociopath these types of people they need constant stimulation and constant attention for their ego.

[813] And she had that.

[814] She had somebody stroking her ego all hours of the day.

[815] She had them in shift.

[816] Right.

[817] Literal shift.

[818] And you know, the unfortunate thing, too, is I think that Ted was kind of the same way.

[819] When I look back now about how I was used, I question my own.

[820] I question my people skills, so to speak.

[821] Yeah, I am a firm believer that there are people on this earth who are just absolute evil.

[822] The devil has got control of them, and they're walking this earth wreaking havoc.

[823] And she is one of them.

[824] She's not using a weapon.

[825] She's not using a gun.

[826] She's not, you know, she is absolute evil.

[827] There's no other word to me to say.

[828] And, you know, I have thought a million times if I ever see her what I would say to her.

[829] And I honestly got to tell you right now, I don't know what I would say to her.

[830] I don't know if I'd say anything.

[831] I don't.

[832] I'm not one to just kind of turn my back and walk away.

[833] I think I would probably just say to her, you know what, you might not have to pull the trigger, but she got his blood on your hands and you have to deal with that every day.

[834] You are going to rot in hell.

[835] I assure you of that, which I'm not God.

[836] I don't make those judgments, but I'm, you know, there's just no way.

[837] And, you know, the bad thing about it, she is a predator.

[838] and you know who's her next victim it's one of the stories that doesn't have an ending the ending is you see her looking at some guy going hmm and that's the end of the story and you know what he may be a shell of a human being too because she has completely sucked a life out of him and he's just going through the motions and he probably is I mean if she's willing to say to Ted I wish you were dead and those sorts of things I mean And it's usually abusers, if they're saying it to one of their victims, they're saying it to all of them, because that's just how they operate.

[839] What has transformed you or changed you as a person from this?

[840] I look at suicide completely different now because, you know, before this happened to other people.

[841] This didn't happen in my family.

[842] It just didn't happen in my family because we were stronger than that.

[843] And obviously, we apparently were not.

[844] So it has definitely changed my outlook on suicide.

[845] I have become more in tuned to the people I work with and situations that are going on, bad calls that have happened, and we've had some really bad ones, and I have reached out and gotten counseling for some of my folks that I work with.

[846] There are other people in the community who I have reached out to and have reached out to me that were in the public safety community, not that our employees of my agency, but in the fire departments that have gotten help because they were struggling with stuff.

[847] And I will say that I become much more suspicious of people who want to be my friend.

[848] Why do you want to be my friend?

[849] I am not quite as, you know what, I can't say I'm not quite as trusting because I've never been a, I'm not really easy to people who want to be my friends.

[850] I'm not a person who is, oh, sure, okay, let's be friends.

[851] I'm very selective about my friends.

[852] And I'm always questioning when people say things that make my stomach go bloop or my back of my neck kind of tangle.

[853] It's like, wait a minute.

[854] Whoa, whoa, whoa, what?

[855] What?

[856] You know, I, no. Just something, no. So I'm very suspicious, I guess, of people.

[857] I guess the biggest thing is, you know, your family comes first.

[858] Your husband, your kids.

[859] when outside people are paying attention to you and there's a lot of infidelity that goes on to public safety you know the grass is not always greener on the other side it absolutely is not greener on the other side you need to remember the person who you're with why you married them or why you got involved with them and you know what you have together you need to be very you need to protect that you absolutely need to protect that because it's precious it really is precious, especially in today's world.

[860] And if someone's struggling with something, you know, reach out to them, try to go the extra mile.

[861] And I think that with Ted, I did go the extra mile, that you can't force someone to get help even if they don't want to because I would have had to have literally tied him up and carried him, which I would have never been able to do, and thrown him in a car and taking him to account.

[862] So that was the only way that was going to happen.

[863] And then when he got there, he did just sat there, stone face and not said anything.

[864] I know he wouldn't have talked.

[865] But, yeah.

[866] So be cognizant of what's going on around you.

[867] If someone's not acting right, you know, try to find out what's going on.

[868] And again, don't let people come into your life into your relationships who seem too good to be true.

[869] Be very cautious of that.

[870] Absolutely.

[871] Thank you so much for your time and for speaking with me, and I really, really appreciate it.

[872] And, yeah, I'm really sorry for your guys' loss as well, and I just appreciate you being open.

[873] You know, when I heard this, I listened to the podcast, and when CJ contacted me last week and asked me if I'd be willing to do this, she was kind of apprehensive about asking me. I said, yes, absolutely, there are some things I need to say and get out there, too.

[874] So I appreciate the fact that you do this kind of stuff because I don't know, you know, I guess I didn't realize this type of things out there.

[875] You know, I'm kind of not as computer savvy as some folks are.

[876] I'm computer savvy in other ways because things I do at work, but not this side of, you know, podcasts and stuff.

[877] So, yeah, thank you for what you do and keep on doing what you're doing.

[878] Thank you so much.

[879] Well, I hope you have a good rest of your day.

[880] All right.

[881] All right.

[882] Take care.

[883] Thank you.

[884] Thanks.

[885] Bye -bye.

[886] Thank you again to Diane and the Bishop family for sharing with us this season.

[887] Also, I'd like to thank you for listening to Something Was Wrong this year.

[888] It's been an action -packed whirlwind of an experience that I am forever grateful for.

[889] I'm looking forward to sharing 2020 with all of you, diving into more stories and growing through it all.

[890] Also, I'm really excited to share that next year we'll be having a fun opportunity for our listeners.

[891] listeners that are musicians.

[892] If you're musically inclined, submit an MP3 cover of our theme song You Think You by the band Gladrags in its entirety to Something Was Wrong podcast at gmail .com.

[893] When you send over your MP3, please include a paragraph about your musical background or current music projects so we can send listeners your way to hear more.

[894] All styles of music are welcome and encouraged.

[895] So get creative.

[896] I'm so excited to hear what y 'all come up with.

[897] Thank you so much.

[898] And happy holidays, friends.

[899] You think you know me, you don't know me well at all.

[900] Something Was Wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

[901] Music on the show by the band, Gladrags.

[902] You can find them on iTunes, band camp, all over the place.

[903] They're also on Instagram, so check them out.

[904] I'd like to thank the Bishop family for being so vulnerable and brave.

[905] If you want to hang out some more, you can add me on Instagram.

[906] I am at Looky Boo, L -O -O -K -I -E -B -O -O.

[907] We also have a hashtag, Something Was Wrong, Pod on Instagram.

[908] Also, if you are interested in any of the materials, sources, sponsors mentioned on the podcast, you can check them out under the episode and show notes.

[909] Thank you so much.

[910] If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

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