Bob Odenkirk

[0] So really get close to the microphone for this welcome, welcome, welcome, and your most clearest voice, if you can.

[1] Okay.

[2] All right, you ready?

[3] Go.

[4] Welcome, welcome, welcome.

[5] That was good.

[6] That was awesome.

[7] We also say armchair expert.

[8] Say welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[9] Okay.

[10] Welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[11] Yes.

[12] My goodness.

[13] I'm joined by D. Money and Monty Patty.

[14] She's going to replace you.

[15] Yeah.

[16] Well, one of us.

[17] Rob, you, me. Okay.

[18] Okay, we have an old boss of mine on today, Bob Odenkirk.

[19] I found love with him, of course, I'm Mr. Show, but he's an incredible actor, comedian, and writer.

[20] He came to great prominence in Breaking Bad, and he is, of course, Saul in the loved and acclaimed Better Call Saul.

[21] He has a new book out called Comedy, Comedy, Comedy, Drama, which we talk about in length.

[22] It's a show business memoir.

[23] It's really, really funny and really sincere, which I love.

[24] So in addition to that, please check out season six of Better Call Saul out April 18th.

[25] Enjoy Bob Odenkirk.

[26] Give me a Bob Odenkirk like that.

[27] Bob Oonkirk.

[28] Boom.

[29] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and ad free right now.

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[31] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[32] I did an interview with my hometown paper.

[33] Oh, okay.

[34] Naperville?

[35] This is years ago, yeah.

[36] Yeah.

[37] And a guy said, so did you like Naperville?

[38] Did you like living here?

[39] Or did you want to get out?

[40] And I knew when I said this, I'm in trouble.

[41] I said, well, when I was 15, I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there.

[42] Then the headline is, forget the words when I was 15.

[43] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[44] And so now I'm going back to my hometown to talk about my book.

[45] and you should never read the comments and I really try not to and I mostly don't because that is not the relationship I have with the audience.

[46] That's right.

[47] I put things out, you like them or don't like them, I don't need to hear about it.

[48] Yeah.

[49] I'll know because it's a success.

[50] You laughed or you stood up and walked away.

[51] Or it's forgotten because you didn't like it and that's fine.

[52] But some woman had written in he's coming to town.

[53] Why?

[54] He hates it here.

[55] Oh, geez.

[56] Why?

[57] Because this headline said I couldn't wait to get out but the guy had twisted the line.

[58] When I was 15, I couldn't wait to get out.

[59] And by the way, any 15 -year -old who wants to stay in their hometown, I'm a little worried about.

[60] Absolutely.

[61] By the way, it's on your Wikipedia page.

[62] That I hated my hometown.

[63] Yeah.

[64] Are you serious?

[65] I promise you.

[66] I just read your Wikipedia page.

[67] Oh, come on.

[68] And how about Chris Farley?

[69] When I did the interview on Chris for that Tom Shale's book, it's the S &L book, and it's a bunch of interviews of all the cast up until I'm going to guess that book came out 15 years ago.

[70] He's interviewing me about Chris, and I write about Chris a fair amount in my book because Chris impacted me and so many people.

[71] Yeah.

[72] I was writing at SNL.

[73] I got a phone call from my friend Tom Giannis, who was going to direct the next main stage show at Second City.

[74] Bob, do you want to be in the next main stage company?

[75] I'd been at Saturday Night Live for two and a half years at that point.

[76] So I said yes.

[77] So the second half of the season at Saturday Night Live, I was flying.

[78] back to Chicago after read -throughs.

[79] Oh, wow.

[80] So there's three improv sets I would do after their main stage show, and we'd write during the day.

[81] Uh -huh.

[82] And then I would fly back to S &L on Saturday.

[83] Oh, Jesus.

[84] And be there like I hadn't left.

[85] Was everyone aware of what you were doing?

[86] No. There's a total secret.

[87] Only Robert Smigel and Conan O 'Brien knew.

[88] Okay, good secret keepers.

[89] And it was only for the last half of the season, which at S &L tends to be two weeks on, two weeks off.

[90] Not to mention that doing the math, wake up Tuesday morning at 10 a .m. in New York, go into the office, stay up all night, Tuesday night, do the read -through Wednesday at one in the afternoon, leave on a plane at 6 o 'clock at night.

[91] You've been up since Tuesday morning at 10 a .m. Right, right.

[92] Go to Chicago, go on stage, do an improv set.

[93] And I got held up with a gun one of these nights.

[94] I was leaving the show with my girlfriend at the time in Chicago.

[95] So it's probably 1 a .m. after the improv set.

[96] And I've been up since Tuesday morning at 10 a .m. in New York.

[97] It's now Thursday morning at 1 a .m. And somebody pulls a gun.

[98] It looks like a shitty zip gun.

[99] You know what a zip gun is?

[100] Like a little 22.

[101] It's kind of a made -up gun.

[102] You build it.

[103] But it's also made...

[104] It's not made a plastic or...

[105] It looks like a fucked -up gun.

[106] And the round that comes out is a real bullet that comes out, most importantly.

[107] Yes.

[108] And this guy holds it up.

[109] I parked the car.

[110] I get out.

[111] He goes, give me your money.

[112] And I'm so wiped out.

[113] I can't think straight at all.

[114] You're probably inebriated at this point with sleep deprivation.

[115] Yes, yes, yes.

[116] I'm like numb.

[117] And I'm looking at the guy.

[118] I'm taking too long.

[119] He's scared and, you know, holding this gun up to me. Right.

[120] My girlfriend's in the front seat of the car.

[121] She's got the door locked and she's freaking out.

[122] And I have my clothes on from the show, which are not my.

[123] my clothes that I've traveled in, and that's where my wallet is.

[124] And I go, Mike, money is in my other pants.

[125] And he's scared, and he holds a gun up to my head.

[126] And I open the trunk and I take out my bag and I put it on the sidewalk and I finally get the bag open.

[127] And I know I have a lot of money in there.

[128] I was like at least 300 cash because I was traveling.

[129] So I figure I can make him happy.

[130] I'll hand him this money and he will be like, okay, thanks.

[131] Maybe he won't say thanks.

[132] Probably not.

[133] Maybe send me a card.

[134] Yeah.

[135] In his mind, he'll think thanks.

[136] And then I'll say that It'll sound weak to say thanks.

[137] I'll see it in his eyes.

[138] It'll flash across his eyes.

[139] Gratitude.

[140] So I give him the money and he goes, get your girlfriend out of the car.

[141] I want her jewelry.

[142] Now I'm going to credit this not to my bravado or my courage, but to how tired I was.

[143] I go, what the fuck?

[144] You greedy motherfucker.

[145] Yes.

[146] That's what I did.

[147] I said, look how much money you got.

[148] Get the fuck out of here.

[149] You should go.

[150] And he stands there right by the window of the car, not sure.

[151] sure what to do.

[152] I go, run, go.

[153] And he does.

[154] He leaves.

[155] Yeah.

[156] And we called the police.

[157] They came over and the lady officer said, uh, what did you do?

[158] And I go, well, the guy had the gun in my head and I, I don't know, I was tired, but also, isn't it true that people don't want to use the gun?

[159] That's generally they don't want to.

[160] Much bigger crime.

[161] And she says, if someone pulls a gun on me, I assume they want to shoot me. It's probably not a bad assumption.

[162] It's a safe assumption.

[163] It's a safe assumption.

[164] Intellectually, that's 100 % true.

[165] I agree with that.

[166] But if you have my history, I give him the cigarettes.

[167] His next thought is, that was easy.

[168] What else can I get from this person?

[169] And that unfortunately is true to some extent.

[170] So it's like, he got the money.

[171] And he was like, all right, that was easy.

[172] Where does it end?

[173] That's true.

[174] But in the years since, because I've also had these incidents in my home, I've done a lot of thinking about this.

[175] And some research, you could say.

[176] And generally, you should always give.

[177] give merchandise or money and get the fuck out of there.

[178] Agreed.

[179] Even the biggest, scariest guys, when I trained for this movie, Nobody, it's a great training facility, the best stunt men in the world.

[180] I always want to ask them, what do you do?

[181] What should a person do?

[182] And every one of them, get the fuck out of there.

[183] You don't ever want to fight.

[184] Yeah, there's some cardinal rules.

[185] You don't go to a second location with anybody ever.

[186] You might as well have that fight right now.

[187] Right.

[188] But yeah, merchandise.

[189] My calculus is a little bit like, if someone comes into my house and they want my shit, And what I'm angry about is that this person would be willing to kill me over things.

[190] Yeah.

[191] But then I can't now kill him over things either.

[192] The math is different if your kids and wife are there.

[193] What these guys say, the experts that I've talked to, I'm sure you could find some who would contradict this, but I was surprised how across the board it was, get the fuck out of there.

[194] Always, always get away from the fight situation.

[195] Right.

[196] That's number one, if you can.

[197] Get your family out of there.

[198] get you out of there and let that thing sort itself out with the police or just however it wants to but you're not there they can take care of all this shit because everything can be replaced everything you and I are both lucky enough to have homeowners insurance I'm making an assumption you do but you're a very fiscally responsible person I'm assuming you do okay now it made me think of two things one I was racing in a series while doing a movie on the weekends similar to what you're talking about yeah right I would leave secretly on Friday, have a race on Saturday that returned to this movie.

[199] And that was so stressful.

[200] Yeah.

[201] Your flight might get delayed.

[202] I might get an accident racing.

[203] I might get a scene on SNL that I have to help with.

[204] Yes, there's a myriad of things that could go wrong.

[205] And it sounds like for both of us, it kind of worked out, which is nice.

[206] It totally worked out for a variety of reasons it worked out.

[207] But you were talking about Chris Farley.

[208] Oh yeah.

[209] I was talking about the Tom Shale's book.

[210] He asked me, what was Chris Farley like?

[211] And I was trying to characterize sort of the core thoughts about him at that moment.

[212] And I said, look, this might come across the wrong way.

[213] And I love the guy, but he was kind of like a child in some important ways.

[214] Yeah.

[215] And of course, the only sentence that got printed at the beginning of the paragraph was Chris Farley was like a child, not the setup.

[216] He had an innocence.

[217] That's what I should have said.

[218] Well, like all of us, it was his sword that was the best part of him and then the most dangerous and vulnerable side of him.

[219] That's right.

[220] But my point, when you do an interview and you say something and then they go to the second half, of the sentence and just use that and they use it as the headline can i tell you the most unethical thing that happened for me i will not do print interviews i did playboy some 10 12 14 years ago whatever it was and i was very excited about that because those were my favorite great interviews the best when i got asked i was very excited about it and i hung with this person and the question he had actually asked me was you've i don't know if he said slept with or linked to a few different famous women how do you explain And so I go, I think dancing and being funny is my guess, because I don't think it's my face.

[221] So when I read this fucking interview, he wrote, you've been linked or had sex with several famous people, comma, enlisted several people.

[222] That was not part of the question.

[223] And on top of it, wrong people.

[224] And now I'm panicked like, this human's going to read this.

[225] Right.

[226] That I said I slept with them.

[227] I mean, I can't imagine being that fucking unethical.

[228] I know.

[229] Or being the guy who wrote the headline in my home.

[230] town he hated it here yeah like dude i'm gonna have to live with that the rest of my life and i don't feel that way or i wouldn't be standing here giving you this interview it's kind of crazy it's hard i mean i'm just about to do this tour you're at my first interview oh wonderful you can practice here because of my book yes comedy comedy comedy drama thank you somehow i told myself there will be three tests in this next three weeks of promotion three times i will be asked a question that will potentially fuck me up.

[231] Oh, really?

[232] I don't know why I got the number three in my head.

[233] Yeah, that seems arbitrary.

[234] Whatever it is, you better watch out.

[235] Are there specific ones you already...

[236] There's all kinds of issues I even talk in my book about.

[237] And I don't have Pat solid answers for any of them.

[238] Right.

[239] My answer is I'm a person who fucked up along the way and didn't know better along.

[240] Yeah.

[241] And now I regret it.

[242] And also in the context of today's social conversation, makes mistakes.

[243] Maybe 10 years, some of them won't be judged as harshly as we go through changes and learn and maybe grow sensitivity towards things.

[244] And some of them will be judged maybe even harsher.

[245] Maybe some things we haven't even noticed yet.

[246] I'll say this around LA and people hate it.

[247] Because I'm not, by the way, excluding myself from this.

[248] I do this too.

[249] There will be a point in time where they look back in 2002 and they'll go, hold on a second.

[250] So just only brown people did all the manual labor in Los Angeles.

[251] Yeah, but they were free and no one, no, there wasn't slavery, it wasn't this.

[252] Yeah, but all the white people, they didn't do any of the manual labor and then only the brown people did it?

[253] That'll be a thing that someone will point out is obviously fucking absurd that we all just kind of float along with and we have a reason for, forget all that.

[254] In 40 years, they'll just look at the pictures and they'll go, oh, wow, that's weird.

[255] Well, one thing I pointed out, because I did talk about this with the Guardian, was no women ever submitted a packet.

[256] We never said no to a female writer.

[257] No one ever asked.

[258] I'm not standing up for that either because they didn't ask because they figured there's no chance.

[259] They saw no precedent.

[260] There were, obviously, some great female writers.

[261] But again, no one ever submitted.

[262] But my God, we had funny women around us.

[263] Brett Paisal, Karen Kilgareff, Sarah Silverman, Janine, I don't think would have wanted to.

[264] Her career was taken off and doing great.

[265] Well, that's how I got introduced to the comedy world.

[266] When I moved here, was going to see all you guys in that alternative comedy scene.

[267] whatever.

[268] And it was pretty female heavy, which was rare, though, by the way.

[269] You noticed that, which says a lot about what had been just prior.

[270] But the thing that it compounds is like, A, we did shit that we certainly regret.

[271] Additionally, when you and I were watching comedy, we were watching whatever was on the television and we couldn't see what any of these people did 12 years ago or 15 years ago because it didn't exist.

[272] It was not like the VHS taped shows or stand -up sets.

[273] And you could find all this stuff.

[274] So just the fact that there's a very accessible record that we are now permanently in is an interesting thing.

[275] Absolutely.

[276] And without a paddle, my first movie, I do an Indian accent while there's a laser on my forehead.

[277] Bummer, I fucking wish I didn't do that.

[278] My best friend's fucking Indian.

[279] Terrible.

[280] But you can see it right now.

[281] You can go see it.

[282] Right.

[283] But that could have just never been seen.

[284] Right.

[285] Right.

[286] Maybe though that's going to be the way to a more forgiving and sensitive appraisal of people is the fact that everything they did is now on video and everyone's going to start to go, I have to be forgiving because you know what I did when I was 19.

[287] Yeah, the notion of skeletons in the closet almost can't exist anymore.

[288] Well, they're not in the closet.

[289] You've got skeletons.

[290] They're walking around.

[291] They're in the living room.

[292] They're greeting you in the foyer.

[293] They say hi every day.

[294] I don't know if you've had this because Of course, I'm always defensive about the things I did, but I can objectively watch, like I watch this Britney Spears documentary, I watch this Monica Lewinsky documentary, and they cut to the night show monologues, and the things they said five minutes ago is insane.

[295] I can watch it and go like, what you're calling her a slut?

[296] Oh my God, and I was watching it, and it wasn't a red flag to me. I know what you're saying.

[297] You're saying that we sound defensive, you and I, a little bit, but there's also, things you go like that's just wrong i'm happier yeah i'm totally happier i'm glad my daughters aren't watching those monologue sets i am and let me just say about mr shell i wish we hired one or two or three female writers yes i don't feel good about the fact that we didn't it's been an issue for a long time people need to see someone in their position that they could dream of so they believe it's possible for them you know what else that goes to is show business if you've known kids who grew up in show business, they can cut two ways.

[298] Obviously, they can be deluded to think I deserve a career in this because my parents and my neighbors, I grew up in L .A., they're directors, their writers, and you want to say to those people who take it the wrong way, oh, wait a second, your parents, the neighbors, they all came from other parts of the country.

[299] Did you notice that?

[300] Yes.

[301] They are the best from Chicago and New York and who knows where.

[302] And they all came to live on your block because it's in Hollywood.

[303] On the other hand, those kids, and you've met them too, can also have a more realistic in both an encouraging way.

[304] Like, sure, you can be a director.

[305] All you got to do is work on it, but it's possible.

[306] You know Gail, right?

[307] Penny's mom, Gail?

[308] Yeah, she's like a major director.

[309] Whereas if you grow up in Naperville or Detroit, these things seem so impossible that you don't even dream of it, which means you don't plan for it, which means you don't learn anything.

[310] Which is part of your book and the thing I relate to so much, I'm sure like your whole life and mine, too, I'd always get asking these interviews, like, when did you know you wanted to be an actor?

[311] And I'm like, never.

[312] I didn't meet an actor.

[313] How would I have thought I could be an actor?

[314] All these people saying they were going to be an actor, I don't even understand.

[315] I knew a lot of people that were mechanics.

[316] My book starts where I ran into Del Close on the street, and I had a long conversation with him.

[317] He was just rambling around his career.

[318] He wasn't trying to encourage me. He's like kind of the godfather of Second City, or a very revered person from Second City.

[319] He is a sham, for sure.

[320] Yeah.

[321] And, In one way, even while sitting there listening to him, talk, I'm going, I don't want anything to do with the kind of life he's led in a lot of ways.

[322] He's a heroin addict.

[323] Sure.

[324] If you had coke, he wanted it.

[325] Yeah.

[326] And he used it.

[327] On the other hand, just talking about his wide -ranging career made it feel like I could do those things.

[328] He was talking about a lot of, you could say, failure, projects that you never heard of, that I never heard of.

[329] But he had enjoyed them.

[330] He talked about them with energy.

[331] and a smile and it made me go.

[332] Maybe I'm not the most talented guy, but I just show up with my best energy and I keep trying to do new things and I could do some version of what he just told me. That would be a life worth living is what I thought.

[333] And if I didn't do coke and heroin, how much money would he have right now that he doesn't have?

[334] Yeah.

[335] So we're going to take a fast pass through Naperville, then going to school in Carbondale, kind of doing some writing there.

[336] And then this moment, you're 20, I guess, when you were walking down the street in Chicago.

[337] And then this starts this kind of road to comedy, which I guess the first point I'd be curious in is how do you go from the being involved at Second City to getting on to S &L as a writer?

[338] So I wasn't at Second City before S &L.

[339] I was at S &L first.

[340] How did that happen?

[341] So it's completely out of whack.

[342] So I go to Chicago because of the scene there and talking to Dell that day and feeling like, yes, I've got to try.

[343] So I left college with one class left because I knew what I wanted to do.

[344] And I started taking classes at the Players Workshop of the Second City, which was a theater school that was connected to the Second City.

[345] Right.

[346] Is this where you meet Smigel?

[347] Smigel, I met there and Dave Reynolds and a whole bunch of great young people starting out.

[348] And I started taking classes and doing shows, whatever's available, and I'm doing some stand -up.

[349] Smigel is writing great stuff already.

[350] He's like putting up a show at the screen.

[351] where we're going with sketches that he wrote, it's like professional stuff.

[352] Yeah.

[353] And then he takes his group of people that he met at this theater school, and he puts up a show, and it's a hit.

[354] It runs for a year and a half in Chicago.

[355] So Smigel sees me, we kind of chat, whatever, you run into each other in these circles.

[356] And he sees me in a show called Yuckshack, which is a sloppy sketch show that doesn't run for a year and a half, runs for four or five weeks.

[357] But I'm doing my crazy shit.

[358] And he loves it.

[359] We just become good friends.

[360] And we start talking about another show to write.

[361] And I move in to his apartment.

[362] Oh, wow.

[363] We even shared a bedroom for a while.

[364] Oh, my goodness.

[365] Wow.

[366] And meanwhile, his show has been running for months, and I take over for Dave Reynolds.

[367] When Dave Reynolds auditions for a movie gets the lead, Franken and Davis wrote the movie.

[368] And so then the movie gets finished, and Franken and Davis are going to executive produce Saturday Night Live.

[369] Lauren is coming back after his five years in Hollywood.

[370] So they're out looking.

[371] for writers and performers, and they hire Smigel.

[372] They go to Dave Reynolds show, the lead in their movie, says, I'm in a hilarious show.

[373] You should come see it.

[374] They come see it.

[375] It's great.

[376] They're not wrong.

[377] And who wrote this stuff?

[378] And they hire Robert as a writer.

[379] And he does wonderfully at SNL.

[380] And over that first year that he's there, a rough year at SNL, it's the Robert Down a year.

[381] Also, is this Julia Louise Dreyfus?

[382] No. Okay.

[383] No, she's left.

[384] But I just want to point out the weird similarity here because I interviewed her, and she was just in a show having nothing.

[385] thing to do with anything that Brad had been a part of as a writer.

[386] The practical theater company.

[387] Yeah.

[388] And the whole cast got hired.

[389] Yes.

[390] I was in Chicago when that happened.

[391] This is similar in Genesis.

[392] Like, you're in a show that you're filling in for.

[393] Yeah.

[394] So Smigel gets hired.

[395] He doesn't really know anybody there.

[396] Some great writers are on that year.

[397] And also some great people in the cast.

[398] They just didn't gel.

[399] Smigel's a great writer on that season.

[400] He writes the first show in the season, which is Madonna hosting.

[401] And then he writes the last sketch in the season, which is the Towering Inferno sketch.

[402] Oh, okay.

[403] Where the building's burning down.

[404] It looks like you're going to lose the cast, and Lorne only saves Dennis Miller and John Lovitz.

[405] Very funny, self -aware thing.

[406] And so Smigel's coming back for another year, and because he didn't know anybody there, we'd worked over the phone on sketches, and I'd been able to help him with a few things, which meant a lot to me. Yeah.

[407] And he also would pass my scripts around to a few writers.

[408] So then the next season, I'd fly in, spend a week there.

[409] Again, this is one of those weird things of writing for Saturday Night Live through the week, helping Robert, going to the show, going to the party, then getting on a plane and going right to Ed DeBevix and waiting tables, not having slept at all.

[410] Right, right, right back to reality.

[411] Yeah, right back to reality, which was kind of cool.

[412] Yes, it kind of made you that much more grateful for the party.

[413] Yeah, I didn't have a huge chip on my shoulder.

[414] I was like, this is fucking cool.

[415] I'm getting you your burger.

[416] you have no idea.

[417] I helped write Saturday Night Live this week.

[418] And the most important thing that I got out of that, it's just that thing of being close to the professional effort of making shows and feeling like maybe you'll belong there one day.

[419] It's not such a mystery.

[420] That's a thing.

[421] It's that mysterious aspect to this business that's very intimidating.

[422] It is.

[423] If you're only watching SNL and you're only seeing the finished show, you're unaware of the dress rehearsal.

[424] You're unaware of the 63 sketches that got whittled down to 20.

[425] Yeah.

[426] So it all seems overwhelming, but if you can watch it go step by step, it starts becoming a little more.

[427] Right.

[428] So you do start writing there.

[429] So I did get hired there mostly to help Robert because he was a very important writer pretty quickly.

[430] He's one of the all -time grade.

[431] He really is.

[432] When people reference Robert's excellence, they talk about the recurring sketches.

[433] Right.

[434] I think where he really shown was in the one -offs that were just fucking great.

[435] Like the Star Trek sketch with Chattner, where he goes to.

[436] of the Star Trek convention or the Steve Martin.

[437] I'm not going to phone it in tonight monologue.

[438] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[439] One of the best monologue opening pieces ever on the show.

[440] Can I make an outside guess and observation about what Smygel liked about you?

[441] What, that I thought he was a genius?

[442] No, I'm sure that didn't hurt.

[443] But as someone who was in that world forever at the groundlings, there's these tears of comedy, right?

[444] And it generally happens, in my opinion, that of this group of 15 people, there's a couple people that all the comedians like.

[445] is where you could potentially get offended, but I don't want you to.

[446] It's not the people that the audience loves.

[447] But the comedians I love there and that we all love there were these grumpy little fucking people that came out and they didn't give a fuck and the thing they were doing wasn't appealing and it was crazy and abstract and brave.

[448] The confidence to not be likable, to not seek approval.

[449] So I'm imagining that Smigel saw that in you.

[450] Like this guy makes me laugh.

[451] He's chosen a lane that is not the Chris Farley lane.

[452] You're not going to fall through a table.

[453] Everyone gets it.

[454] it's this much more niche point of view that is refreshing and novel to us because all we really want is something new to watch.

[455] Right.

[456] That's my guess of why he took you under his wing.

[457] I think you might be right.

[458] Somebody was asking me about Tim and Eric when they sent me that DVD of their little shorts.

[459] There were two things about it that got me. One was what you're saying, this intense point of view that they were fully committed to.

[460] Unwavering.

[461] And the only other thing was there were two guys and the pieces had a great deal of variety in their presentation.

[462] One was partly animated and every piece, as weird and different as it was from the other piece, there was a shared sensibility that is really unique and hard to get.

[463] And I think David and I have that, David Cross and I. Yes, you have a point of view that really transcends any setup, any characters you're playing.

[464] There's this fascinating aspect of writing sketch comedy in a group, which is like, at the growlings we'd write all week.

[465] We'd put them all up on Wednesday night.

[466] if we all bet on which ones we're going to kill almost unanimously those are the ones that sucked in the show because again we liked the most fucked up weird thing you're trying to navigate like what is going to work yet everything I love doesn't work kind of but works among us it's the last sketch on SNL right right which is often Jack Handy's sketch but it was great and all the writers that was their favorite fucking piece yes yes but it's hard to know the math doesn't make sense it doesn't from outside no so let's fast forward to Mr. Show, because that's where I fell in love with you.

[467] I loved Mr. Show.

[468] I liked kids in the hall so much.

[469] I was into punk rock, so it's like, as and now, I liked nostalgically, and then Mr. Show comes along.

[470] Yeah.

[471] My favorite Mr. Show sketch, the premise is that it's a talk show, and I think it's Dave, and the talk show is recorded previously.

[472] Oh, yes.

[473] Pre -taped call -in show.

[474] You got to know next week's topic, basically.

[475] To call in.

[476] And people keep calling, yeah, I hate lingerie or whatever it was.

[477] No, no, I'm so sorry.

[478] That's last show this week's show is about donkeys and then you go see and then the tv would turn and you'd see last week's show and it kept going back and what you found out in quick time was that you met this guy and he was a fucking mess it looked like he had been pulled out of the river yeah and it was only five shows previous that the show had launched and he looked great and he was like we're hoping this will go well we don't have a topic for tonight because we'll always be talking about next week's talking yeah it's a great sketch.

[479] It's unreal.

[480] Brilliant.

[481] The math of it is so fucking brilliant.

[482] And it's precise.

[483] I mean, listen, that is the thing I'm most proud of with Mr. Show is just those great sketches that were mechanically perfect and also had great performance quality in them.

[484] Yes.

[485] In so many ways, a sketch like that was a great reaction to my time at SNL where you couldn't do that sketch.

[486] It couldn't be done live.

[487] So it was always frustrating there as a writer who was so into the writing.

[488] And so challenged by it and interested in it to go execute it as well as you could.

[489] And it was what I dreamed of having.

[490] And with Mr. Show, I got to have it.

[491] And when you break down our production schedule on Mr. Show, you essentially come up with, it took three weeks per episode.

[492] Oh, wow.

[493] That's not what we did.

[494] We didn't stop and do three weeks on the next episode.

[495] We wrote for six months.

[496] And then we shot video for a month and a half.

[497] And then we did the live shows for a month.

[498] That's why we were able to do those kinds of sketches well when Saturday Night Live, which is a great show.

[499] Oh, it's so impressive.

[500] It's just a completely different animal.

[501] It's a different animal.

[502] I did not get that.

[503] And Robert would look at me sometimes and I know what he was thinking now.

[504] Like, haven't you seen this show?

[505] Do you know what show we write for?

[506] It's on every Saturday.

[507] You could check it out.

[508] Where he had studied SNL.

[509] And I hadn't.

[510] And even when I interviewed with Lauren, I think I said.

[511] I like Monty Python.

[512] I'm exaggerating, but only a little dad.

[513] I went into that interview a fucking waiter at a hamburger restaurant.

[514] Yeah, but you're going to tell them your truth.

[515] Yeah, and I'm like, well, it's not so great here, is it?

[516] But partly I did that because I thought he would like that.

[517] Do you think that's a genetic trait of yours, or do you think that's a response to your childhood?

[518] Oh, I think it's a response to my childhood.

[519] Because your dad was a chaotic man, yeah?

[520] Yeah, I think all this stuff was response to my childhood, a lack of social skills and understanding and sensitivity and a real problem with authority.

[521] I mean, my attitude was so shitty.

[522] You and I are two peas in a pod because there were many adults in my life and they all had an agenda and I learned not to follow anyone's plan but my own.

[523] Because if I follow your plan, we end up in a ditch.

[524] And so I'm so fucking stubborn.

[525] I'd rather fail at my plan miserably in front of everybody than fail at your plan, or even win at your plan maybe, but it's my childhood.

[526] It's a bummer.

[527] It's gotten in my way a trillion times.

[528] I think my point of view, if I could characterize it, would be if you're in charge, that automatically means you're disconnected from what matters.

[529] You've gone to a place where you can't see effort on the ground, which is to say being a kid.

[530] You are living in a bubble that means you don't get it.

[531] Right.

[532] And in your father's defense, probably caught in a cycle where it was finally his turn to make the plan.

[533] He has a mystery, my dad.

[534] Two days ago, I was in Tucson talking to my brother, Steve.

[535] We learned a little bit about my dad's mom through my dad's sister.

[536] My brother sat with her before she passed away also a year ago and asked her about the family.

[537] We learned that my grandma, my dad's mom, would go on these jaunts pretty regularly with her sister and her brother -in -law.

[538] And they would leave for days.

[539] Was she an alcoholic?

[540] I'm sure she was.

[541] And they would go to casinos and things like roadhouses and shit.

[542] And they'd just go on a jaunt for two or three days.

[543] So your dad probably had the exact same thing you had.

[544] And it was his turn to run the show.

[545] Well, I don't know what it was.

[546] I think he had maybe more of that kind of spirit in him that, like, I don't relate to it all.

[547] I couldn't imagine leaving my wife and kids.

[548] I'm going to challenge that.

[549] So one thing you cherish or value or think is a necessity, which is work, and it justifies the leaving.

[550] I do too.

[551] But what if I value partying for seven days every few months?

[552] I mean, you're picking what thing you value, and both things result in your kids not being around you all the time.

[553] So it's hard to be too judgmental of it because I have the same complaints.

[554] My dad was a fucking alcoholic.

[555] He was a cokehead.

[556] But the end result can be the same.

[557] One's justified and one's not.

[558] So it's complicated.

[559] It is complicated.

[560] I'll give you that.

[561] There's seven kids.

[562] I'm the second oldest.

[563] He would blow in and out.

[564] Yeah, and mom would be really sad.

[565] She would cry and sometimes have a breakdown.

[566] Okay, right.

[567] And then he'd roll back in.

[568] Yep.

[569] And then it'd be fucking chaos again.

[570] Yep.

[571] So just a completely bipolar existence.

[572] As a kid, it was pretty fucked up.

[573] And you didn't know what was going on.

[574] And by the way, the whole alcoholism, A .A., that all came about when I was at 11 or 12 when my mom would take me to Elinon meetings.

[575] Uh -huh.

[576] It was great.

[577] I went to probably meetings for about a year or a year and a half.

[578] And it was so great because just bottom line, oh.

[579] So that's what's going.

[580] on and so getting the names for things and understanding it was so great but i guess i was talking a little bit about judging my father and how it's still really hard for me i can't tell you what he was going through but when i was 22 i get this call from my brother he's going to die so let's go right now and he'd gotten the diagnosis and his body was going downhill pretty quick bone cancer and i thought consciously.

[581] This is great.

[582] I haven't seen him in five years.

[583] Maybe I misjudged him.

[584] I'm going to take this opportunity.

[585] I'm going to talk to him.

[586] I'm going to see if we can connect.

[587] And we didn't.

[588] And not only that, I walk in the room and the same shit he's talking about that I remembered.

[589] They said he's making $100 ,000 for what?

[590] What does he do?

[591] You see the car that guy's driving a Lexus.

[592] He's talking about people's fucking cars and the job they got.

[593] No wonder you've rejected all this shit talking about other people I've never even heard of and you sit around thinking about this shit.

[594] Were you employed yet in show business?

[595] No, I was 22.

[596] I was living with Smigel.

[597] I was not making money.

[598] But you were pursuing comedy.

[599] Oh, yeah.

[600] I was actually enjoying it.

[601] Yeah, yeah.

[602] Doing my dumb jobs for money and even dumb showbiz jobs.

[603] We did a murder mystery once.

[604] It was so much fun.

[605] We wrote it ourselves and the setup was a wedding.

[606] celebration for a young couple or they were engaged engagement party and then there was a murderer and then we all went in and had dinner but first there was this show where all the actors were going to talk or say a speech or whatever and then one of them's the murderer right but i said i would like to sing i can't sing me either and i said as a gift for the young couple i have a song i want to sing and i sang the stevie wonder song you are the sunshine was it and i said bill withers song.

[607] You are the sun, sunshine.

[608] Yeah, I'd say it, Bill Withers.

[609] I'd sang that song.

[610] And you had to listen to the whole fucking thing.

[611] Oh, sure.

[612] Acapella.

[613] No music.

[614] There's going to be clues.

[615] So you've got to listen to what they're going to do and say.

[616] So I can guess who the murderer is.

[617] And I just sang it as best I could, which was terrible.

[618] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[619] If you dare.

[620] We've all been there.

[621] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[622] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[623] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[624] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[625] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[626] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[627] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[628] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon music.

[629] What's up, guys?

[630] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[631] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[632] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[633] And I don't mean just friends.

[634] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[635] The list goes on.

[636] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[637] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[638] You know what just happened real time?

[639] What?

[640] You were about to tell me what happened with your dad and then you went to the sketch.

[641] What was I going to talk about?

[642] Well, we were just on the precipice that I met him and I talked to him and he was.

[643] talking about the same old shit.

[644] Yeah, and you were disappointed.

[645] Well, I was also comforted that I wasn't just me being a prickly 14 -year -old asshole who didn't give him a chance.

[646] This was a guy who I was never going to connect with, no matter how long he lived.

[647] I'll share with you.

[648] So I don't feel this way currently, but I have felt this way much of my life.

[649] So my story is my mother is an angel, and my father was the villain in the story.

[650] and he was alive when I became successful.

[651] What I came to realize after he died was he was proud of me, but I wanted him to be a man that I looked up to and respected so that that approval meant something to me. And I now recognize my story.

[652] My mother's neither an angel, and he wasn't a villain.

[653] But I never bought into your mother's a saint, but keep going.

[654] I know she's very religious.

[655] No, my mother's not religious at all.

[656] One of the things I'm like, oh, your mother, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[657] Yeah, pious, maybe.

[658] Pious, extremely Catholic.

[659] She tried to join a convent when my youngest sister turned 18.

[660] Right.

[661] She applied.

[662] She went through the process and thank God the Mother Superior.

[663] And my mom told me this.

[664] She called and said, do you think you have a calling for this?

[665] And my mother said, yes.

[666] And then the Mother Superior said, you already have a calling.

[667] You're a mother.

[668] And I agree with the Mother Superior.

[669] I'm like, you're right.

[670] finish.

[671] You're not done because your kid turned 18.

[672] Here's the thing about my dad and your points a good one.

[673] If my dad had lived and maybe even gotten sober and said, that stuff you do is pretty cool.

[674] If I didn't respect him and I didn't, what would it have meant that he liked what I did?

[675] I might have felt a little more sympathy for him like it's a shame you never sort of found what would make you happier and healthier in life.

[676] Yeah.

[677] But it's hard because you don't want to be too judgmental of someone you don't really know that well and it is hard to be a dad and we don't all get equipped from our childhood.

[678] I will say his father was a great guy.

[679] He was, your grandpa.

[680] Sweetheart.

[681] But same with mine, by the way.

[682] His father raised us.

[683] Like, that was the mail in my life.

[684] We'd go see him every other weekend.

[685] So what's the fucking logic in that?

[686] We share a theme, you and I, and I'm going to tell you what it is.

[687] I have come to have the greatest gratitude for my failures and in fact every time I got the thing I planned on getting it was never what I thought it was going to be and every time I had an epic failure and I was devastated it led to something so I directed chips it comes out it does not do well I'm thinking about retiring I somehow end up doing this this is the best thing I've ever done in my life that I would have never found if chips was successful because I would have made two more and I could chart my whole life like that I've been wrong every time about what I needed and what I didn't need and that's primarily what your book's about, isn't it?

[688] Yeah.

[689] I mean, look, that conversation with Dell was about a bunch of failures and a bunch of misfires and a bunch of tries and about the fun of that, of living that life and keeping that spirit up for trying stuff.

[690] And that that constitutes a successful career to me. And then some things work.

[691] And that's great.

[692] But I can't help but think about better call salt.

[693] That's not where you were aiming your fucking ship at any point, right?

[694] If they'd asked me to audition for that, I wouldn't have done it.

[695] Right.

[696] You almost needed a baby step into it, right?

[697] By joining Breaking Bad.

[698] Right.

[699] You're like, oh, I can come in and play this, I'm sure in your mind at least at the time.

[700] Yeah, I can come in and nail those little scenes of a shithead attorney.

[701] Yes, bottom line.

[702] I hadn't watched the show.

[703] I watched it on the plane.

[704] I watched 10 minutes of it.

[705] Yeah.

[706] I was like, okay, I get it.

[707] Even Vince saying, you know, do you think there's a sequel in this or another show?

[708] And I would just say what?

[709] I don't know.

[710] You think so.

[711] I don't sit around.

[712] think about it.

[713] You've not ever dreamt of being the lead of a drama.

[714] No, even when I went and shot the first season of Saul, it's a little hard to express this.

[715] There's something about my point of view in this, and I don't think I've nailed it down completely, but it was so hard to shoot that first season.

[716] I was in every scene, except for one episode where I wasn't in anything.

[717] I came home two times from Albuquerque that season, once for a week and a half when it was the John Banks episode, and then I had one more weekend where I had a Friday off and I got to come home.

[718] But for five months, I didn't come home at all.

[719] I worked my ass off.

[720] I had so much dialogue.

[721] I lost my voice.

[722] I had all kinds of stress issues.

[723] When the season was done, all I did was walk my dog for four months all day.

[724] I went to the dog park every day.

[725] I was a basket case.

[726] I was numb.

[727] But as far as like pursuing the job, getting the job, It didn't even occur to me what a big thing it was until they put the billboard up.

[728] I'd been home for a few months and I'm going to Trader Joe's with my little list.

[729] It was the new Trader Joe's, which was on Highland.

[730] And they're putting this massive billboard of me up.

[731] Right.

[732] And I'm like, oh no. Where's the other people?

[733] Shouldn't Vince be on the billboard?

[734] I want this to be on his shoulders.

[735] That's the first time it occurred to me. Everyone's going to at least sample this thing.

[736] They all love Breaking Bad.

[737] Yeah, that's right.

[738] This isn't some project you did that, like, well, if it's no good, no one's going to see it.

[739] I mean, I came to Breaking Bad at the end of the second season.

[740] It was not remotely a hit.

[741] No talk of a hit.

[742] Yes.

[743] Yet to be a hit.

[744] Critics loved it.

[745] People who knew it loved it.

[746] And that was a small group of people.

[747] Right.

[748] And then Netflix comes along.

[749] And so that's the first time that that phenomenon really happened.

[750] It was an unbelievable marriage of material and machine.

[751] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[752] Literally, the computer machine got fast enough to stream a show that was perfect and amazing for streaming.

[753] They had cliffhangers like you can't believe at the end of every episode and at the end of every season.

[754] It feels like it was designed for that even though...

[755] Even though that didn't exist when he started writing it.

[756] I don't know if you remember, you remember bumping into me at Gelson's?

[757] No. Okay.

[758] People will be furious if we don't mention the fact.

[759] We did Let's Go to Prison Together.

[760] We were in Illinois together for a while.

[761] And then we didn't see each other much for years.

[762] And then I bumped into you at Gelson's.

[763] And I said to you, I'm so thrilled with your role on Breaking Bad.

[764] It's so fucking awesome.

[765] And you're like, I know.

[766] And now I'm going to shoot the show.

[767] That's this spinoff.

[768] And I'm like, isn't this wild like where everyone's life goes?

[769] And you're like, yeah, I mean, fuck, I love this.

[770] And I bought a house there.

[771] I just remember us kind of both marveling at like, okay, we did this thing together that didn't work out in any of the ways we would predict or hope.

[772] And yet here we are at Gelson's and everything's fine.

[773] Like if you asked during, let's go to prison, where we're going to be.

[774] Where we're going to be.

[775] There's no way either of us would guess.

[776] That would just sound like one of the most outlandish.

[777] Yeah, we'd be like, how?

[778] You're at that point going to be a director.

[779] And I'm going to have a podcast about emotions.

[780] That's even crazier.

[781] It's bonkers.

[782] Well, I like to say, keep in mind, I tried just as hard at the shit that didn't work.

[783] A thousand percent.

[784] If you want to give me credit, you got to watch out.

[785] That's like saying your prayers worked.

[786] For my own point of view, the less hard I've worked, the more rewarded I've been.

[787] It's actually been flipped for me. Like writing and directing and starring in a movie is a fucking undertaking.

[788] That was two and a half years of my life 12 hours a day.

[789] And then this I show up and shoot the shit.

[790] Well, okay, can I tell you why?

[791] Forgive me for bringing up our friend Mark Marin.

[792] Oh, right.

[793] You guys have a talent without trying of being curious, of being interested, of getting people to open up, of opening up yourself without being overt about it.

[794] But if I were to try to do that, it would come across as counterfeit and effortful.

[795] Because you don't go five times a week to a room with strangers and talk openly about...

[796] You're not giving yourself any credit for just having a talent, a natural inclination that's...

[797] I acknowledge that.

[798] And I have a ton of practice of being open and vulnerable for 18 years at these meetings and hearing other men be open and vulnerable and realizing no one really got made fun of over.

[799] it like i needed that real -time witness it over and over again to go we can all be flawed we can all be regretful we can all be scared we can and everyone likes us more actually they don't no one likes a champion to be honest right you like them on tv you don't want your best friend to be a champion you want your best friend to struggle as a dad and tell you how he figured out this trick and struggled as a fucking filmmaker struggled as a comedian this was as you point out that's at the core of the book and and it was hard by the way it's very hard to write about your failures for a couple reasons.

[800] One, most of them don't see the light of day.

[801] And by the way, I only share about a third of my failures in the book.

[802] There are loads of shows that made it to pilot or made it to script or didn't make it to script but were deals.

[803] Yes.

[804] That I don't write about.

[805] Because it was enough.

[806] I mean, it was like, if I'm going to go through each one of them, you're going to go crazy and you're going to think this can't be real.

[807] Yes.

[808] When I tell people I've written more professionally than I have acted, they're like what is it how it doesn't make sense but as for a young person and that's one of the reasons i wrote the book was for myself and for what dell did for me that's the thing i want to hear i want to know that dach shepherd tried all these things and continues to right and that a lot of them never see the light of day because then he's more like a person he's more like me i can fail that much it's encouraging you feel isolated in your failures and you feel alone in them I think I can do this with my failures.

[809] I think I'm a good judge.

[810] We all do, right?

[811] But I think I'm a good judge of which of those things should have gone.

[812] Like really genuinely, they were good.

[813] Objectively, yeah.

[814] And which things, no, that was not good, man. I do talk about one project in there called Highway to Oblivion.

[815] That was in every way, awesome, awesome, except one horrible way.

[816] But it should have been fixed.

[817] If I was the network, I would have said, fix that one thing, which was the theme.

[818] male co -lead, terribly conceived character.

[819] Right.

[820] And you could reshoot those scenes and it would be a great show.

[821] That's all you'd need to do.

[822] And this is a pilot you got to shoot.

[823] And you could keep the same actress, by the way.

[824] She was great.

[825] Not her fault.

[826] Not her fault.

[827] Now, let's go to prison.

[828] Yeah.

[829] I'm very proud of you and all the actors were wonderful in it.

[830] I also think I had a good vision for how to shoot it.

[831] Uh -huh.

[832] I had the idea I wanted to shoot it on 16mm.

[833] They wouldn't let me. Right.

[834] But we got the oldest 35 -millimeter stock.

[835] that they had.

[836] So it would be grainier.

[837] And I thought we could have fun and shoot it like a 70s movie with snap zooms and energetic choices.

[838] Stylized.

[839] Stylized with this gritty film.

[840] All that's good.

[841] And it works.

[842] I don't think it was figured out entirely as a script.

[843] And by the way, I look at Let's Go to Prison and there's so many things I love about it too.

[844] So let me just say that.

[845] It was the first time I had the balls to do very little.

[846] If I hadn't figured that out there, I can't then do parenthood.

[847] I can't then be in fucking the judge.

[848] Ironically, too, it found some life I didn't expect it to find.

[849] I can't tell you how many times around L .A. It has a very specific demographic.

[850] And I love it.

[851] Here's what really tortures me. Tom Lennon and Ben Grant wrote it.

[852] Maybe if they'd directed it.

[853] I think I didn't really understand the heart of it.

[854] And I still don't.

[855] But I would love to see my fantasy idea of what happens, what they would have done.

[856] Because I have a feeling it would have been better.

[857] It would have been right.

[858] I don't really have an opinion on that.

[859] And from the bottom of my heart, I don't ever think you mishandled that or like you're the thing.

[860] That's never ever been my thought.

[861] I do think that's it.

[862] Well, we're so similar.

[863] And it all worked out.

[864] You're happy.

[865] I'm happy.

[866] It's lovely.

[867] And I think that's kind of the theme.

[868] So I just wanted to say two things that I learned along the way, that I think is what the message of your book is too.

[869] I had a sketch about Wilford Brimley at the Groundlings that was running for a while.

[870] Someone who wrote at Saturday Night saw that show.

[871] I then saw a Wilford Brimley sketch on Serrient Life four weeks later.

[872] At this point, I'm not saying anyone stole anything.

[873] But at that point, at 26, with no money, I was convinced someone had stolen the sketch from me. To the point where I was like, what can I do about this?

[874] Someone pulled me aside that was older than me at the Groundlings, and they said, if you think that was your only good idea, you should get a lawyer and sue.

[875] But if you think you have endless ideas, go on to the next one.

[876] And I think that's the theme of you and I. Just keep creating.

[877] Yeah.

[878] It's a volume game.

[879] Edison, we know about the light bulb.

[880] That motherfucker had 8 ,000 inventions and 7 ,800 of them sucked.

[881] And without being careless about what you're doing, obviously liking and wanting to make things work, joy has to come from doing the work.

[882] And that is part of that Dell conversation that I had on that day, too.

[883] He was excited.

[884] He had quit Second City.

[885] the day before.

[886] He had quit heroin and cocaine like a month before, a month and a half.

[887] And he was telling me about a show he was going to do next week at Cross Current's Theater with two guys who we'd never worked with.

[888] And we're going to have monologues.

[889] He was on fire to do a show nowhere with nobody.

[890] Right.

[891] And if that's happening to you, holy shit, that's worth a lot.

[892] Yes.

[893] That is worth so much.

[894] And in fact, sadly, you almost have to get all this shit to recognize, oh, the sweet spot was writing sketches at the groundlings for no money.

[895] I mean, I'm just measuring joy meter.

[896] It's just the joy and the interest in what you're doing.

[897] And I've gotten to interact with Warren Buffett a little bit because he's a fan of Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad, yeah.

[898] Have you learned bridge yet so you can play with him?

[899] No, I haven't.

[900] That's the move, I think.

[901] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[902] But that guy, if you took all his money away tomorrow, the next day would go to work.

[903] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[904] He wouldn't blink.

[905] As long as he had his $2 .50 for his birthday.

[906] or McDonald's breakfast.

[907] If ever there was a guy, I still remember as a kid watching the 60 minutes profile on Warren Buffett in the mid -90s and going, wait, this guy's the richest guy in the world, and he's driving a 20 -year -old Cherokee back to his 3 ,000 square foot ranch that he's had since the 70s.

[908] Right.

[909] What is the point?

[910] And I was the one that was missing it.

[911] That wasn't the point for him.

[912] That just happens to be the outcome of that.

[913] We're lucky, though, because it's not easy to find that thing that you like to do with your time and your energy.

[914] You have two kids, right?

[915] The only thing I desire is just if they catch fire for any fucking thing, I don't have a criteria of what that thing is.

[916] Just, God damn, if they could have the fire in their eyes about something, I'm like, I'm going to die happy.

[917] Right.

[918] And it's also often the key to making good coin.

[919] Yeah, yeah, which no one hates.

[920] All right.

[921] Comedy, comedy, comedy drama is out.

[922] March 3rd, comedy, comedy, comedy drama.

[923] Did you go back and forth on maybe doing two comedies in drama?

[924] Well, here's what I was concerned with.

[925] I am most famous for Better Call Saul, I would believe.

[926] Maybe nobody now, because that movie was huge around the world.

[927] Right.

[928] And I can easily imagine some guy in an airport or gal.

[929] Uh -huh.

[930] Women are allowed to fly now, right?

[931] They just got the right to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[932] Thinking, I need an easy -to -read book on this flight and look, this actor from Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul.

[933] He's a decent enough actor.

[934] I'll buy his crazy book.

[935] Wait a second.

[936] What's all this crap about comedy?

[937] I never, you never did any comedy.

[938] I mean, part of me was really worried because I knew I was going to write mostly about comedy.

[939] And yet I'm mostly known for drama.

[940] It is ironic, right?

[941] So I just wanted to warn people.

[942] Three times.

[943] Three times.

[944] If you didn't get the fucking message, don't you get mad at this book, you dummy.

[945] You read the title, right?

[946] Drama's the last chapter of your career.

[947] Yeah, and I actually somewhat struggled to say much about it because comedy I studied and thought about and worried about and wrote poorly and wrote well and took me long time to get there.

[948] I even loved it afterwards.

[949] I continued to make sketch comedy and do shows even after Mr. Show, which I considered like, okay, that's what I wanted to do.

[950] Now you've seen it.

[951] Yep.

[952] But drama is harder to talk about for a lot of reasons.

[953] I have some thoughts on it because I too have gone.

[954] accolades from drama work.

[955] Mm -hmm.

[956] And what I'm screaming in my head is like, this is so much easier.

[957] Like, you don't understand.

[958] If you just show my face and push in on it and play the right song, you're going to get the emotion.

[959] I have to make you laugh.

[960] There's no cheat for it.

[961] I know what you're saying.

[962] I would say some of the stuff I've had to do in Saul has been the hardest stuff I've done.

[963] There are scenes that they've written for me that really push you to your limits of digging inside.

[964] I don't know any way around.

[965] And there's a great book out.

[966] It's called The Method.

[967] And it's about the different strains of acting exercises and schools of thinking about acting.

[968] And one of them, I guess, is the method, which is like digging into your past and into your feelings.

[969] And the other is Stella Adler, which is about using your imagination to feel these things.

[970] I don't get that.

[971] You're always going to be digging into your past.

[972] I don't know.

[973] What do you mean your imagination?

[974] Obviously, I'm playing Saul Goodman.

[975] It's not me. Yes, there's imagination.

[976] work.

[977] But the things that I'm drawing on when it's a challenging scene where he's lying or running away from the truth and then he confronts the truth inside him, that's going to be from my life.

[978] And it might be something I think about before I start acting it or it might be something that comes to me. I did a really intense scene about three weeks ago.

[979] And of course, you load up some memories and things you'll draw on because you see a parallel from something in your life.

[980] But there are things that come to you in the middle of doing that scene.

[981] My dad, when I was nine, woke me up in the middle of the night and my brother and told us he was leaving and that he was going to send us money.

[982] And I mean, I was back in that scene when I was doing this scene.

[983] I was back in that room at 2 a .m. And the weirdest thing about acting is then you have to stay there for eight hours.

[984] And the protective part of myself was like, guys, I did it.

[985] I can't now do that 10 more times and 10 more angles because of the filming style you now have to stay there for 12 hours and maybe again tomorrow yeah yeah this scene was shot over three days so that is hard yeah about drama acting but you don't get a lot of scenes like that if it's done right you shouldn't be going there because no one could watch that right that would be like torture to watch so a movie or a tv show every couple episodes you'd have a scene that hard that elemental and that intensely engaged and kind of turbulent.

[986] You just can't be going there all the time, or it's just going to sap everybody, the viewer and the performers.

[987] Oh, I watch my Handmaid's Tale, and I'm like, how can she live this life?

[988] Elizabeth Moss just lives in this state, clearly for months that's just torture.

[989] And I think, God, how can she do it?

[990] When I used to read about Gandalfini or even Cranston would sometimes, I think he would suggest, like, I'd be happy to be done with Walter.

[991] Walter White.

[992] Yeah, yeah.

[993] And I would think, really?

[994] Come on.

[995] It's not that hard.

[996] You act like a tough guy.

[997] Yeah, yeah.

[998] It is hard to be in the mind of a really messed up person or a person who is suffering a lot of pressure emotionally.

[999] I do think that the plot and everything you've done up till now gets you there, too.

[1000] I think that's your point.

[1001] Just cinematically talking about the machine.

[1002] The machine is very well suited to help.

[1003] And in comedy, it's a different ambit.

[1004] animal that has to be done right or the joke isn't there the one thing about comedy though is it's so rewarding in the moment yes drama's not last thing although I'm thrilled with all this drama success how delighted I was to be watching season two of I think you should leave oh yeah yeah fucking scene at the rest or you like the cars no no I have three kudas I yep it's three it's three kudas and it's two chival's what a fucking scene You know what's crazy?

[1005] When I read that, Tim asked me to do it.

[1006] I was sure, well, I didn't even think about it.

[1007] I was going to be the dad.

[1008] Right.

[1009] And he would play that crazy guy.

[1010] But do you recognize, like the Smigel thing, do you recognize you're the original Tim?

[1011] Maybe.

[1012] You are.

[1013] I know what you mean.

[1014] It's a level of crazy commitment.

[1015] That's his lane.

[1016] Like, you guys have a very similar lane.

[1017] That's my favorite sketch show of the last 20 years.

[1018] Oh, yeah.

[1019] It's beyond.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] It's so fucking good.

[1022] And to see you in it, and I was like, this is a nod, I think.

[1023] I don't know him, but I think this is a nod.

[1024] And let me tell you, Tim did me a favor because a project that my son wrote, and I co -wrote with him, but he wrote the original draft, is called Summer and Argyle.

[1025] And it comes out on Audible on March 12th.

[1026] It's a funny, super silly, like radio show.

[1027] All my friends did it willingly.

[1028] And Tim did a great part in it.

[1029] So whatever, he returned the fifth.

[1030] favor but also if you like really silly comedy like unjustifiably insane please do check out argyle on audible and also on march second check out comedy comedy comedy drama by bob odenkirk my old friend and colleague thank you so much took a very twisty path to this room i adore you it so good to see you thanks buddy stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1031] Okay.

[1032] Okay.

[1033] Holy smokes.

[1034] I'm just going to start with Jack.

[1035] How about that?

[1036] Okay, great.

[1037] Aaron and I's best friend from junior high was Jack Keefe, who we spent every day with.

[1038] And every single weekend we were at his house because it was just anything went.

[1039] I feel fraudulent now because we already recorded this.

[1040] And then my machine shut down.

[1041] to know.

[1042] But I don't even know if I can do it.

[1043] But in a nutshell, we haven't seen Jack Keefe in 33 or so years.

[1044] And Aaron found out that he was in northern, northern Michigan, in the hospital was something.

[1045] And, you know, none of us know anybody in northern Michigan.

[1046] And so when Aaron found this out, I flew out the next day and Aaron drove up from Detroit.

[1047] And then we walked into the Oh, gosh.

[1048] This is almost worth telling.

[1049] Okay.

[1050] No, it would out the hospital.

[1051] I had to do the best selling of my entire life to get us both in the room.

[1052] Let's just say that.

[1053] Oh, because see, they're not allowed to have guests.

[1054] Yeah, one a day.

[1055] And we had both traveled such great distance.

[1056] It couldn't really work that way, at any rate.

[1057] It turned out wonderful.

[1058] Did you make out with someone?

[1059] Virtually.

[1060] No. It worked out for everyone because I did get to meet every single nurse.

[1061] the hospital.

[1062] I went to all the different floors and I kind of tried my best to cheer up the folks who had had the worst two years any occupation is probably ever had.

[1063] But again, we had not seen Jack and we love them so much.

[1064] And I think I want to mention too that we got separated because I went to a totally different school district for high school and Aaron got kicked out of their high school like midway through ninth grade and everyone just went on different paths.

[1065] And at any rate, We walked in and we were masked and Jack just sees these two dudes come in super familiar, just pull the curtain back.

[1066] I'm like, hey, buddy, or whatever.

[1067] He's like, are these my new doctors?

[1068] These terrible doctors in street clothes.

[1069] But then when he kind of put it together, oh my God, it was like the sweetest moment in a decade.

[1070] and we both got to squeeze them forever.

[1071] All three of us were really emotional.

[1072] And then we spent the three best days ever in the hospital with him all day.

[1073] And then he got discharged and Aaron got to drive him home.

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] And then I flew home.

[1076] But I just love Jack Keefe so much and it was so lovely to see him.

[1077] Oh, the other amazing thing is too, because your mind wanders to like, okay, 30 years.

[1078] Like, I have a total memory of exactly who.

[1079] is in my mind, but A, is that accurate.

[1080] B, how has he changed?

[1081] Within like 45 seconds, we were just in seventh grade again.

[1082] Zero time lost kind of feeling, just telling stories.

[1083] I brought all the recording equipment.

[1084] You got some stuff?

[1085] Yeah, yeah.

[1086] So we kind of all told stories because Aaron and I are, we're really curious if what we think happened happened.

[1087] So it was fun.

[1088] He remembered a bunch of stuff that we didn't.

[1089] We remembered stuff he didn't.

[1090] And then we had a bunch of overlapy stuff.

[1091] Vulner Boys?

[1092] He's another lead singer for sure.

[1093] The Vulner Boys now has three lead singers.

[1094] I love that you did that.

[1095] You and Aaron did that.

[1096] That's such a heartwarming story and gift to give somewhere.

[1097] It was incredible.

[1098] And I was saying right before the equipment failed us, recognizing it's easier for me to do that the most people I was able to clear out three days I can afford to fly there last minute but man if you ever have the chance to do that and you're kind of like I don't know will it be awkward or well I have to spend the whole time trying to figure out why we haven't spoken like just fuck that and go because if it's even half the experience the three of us had it just is it's so wonderful to remember and remind the other person how important they are in your life even if you haven't seen them yeah the role they play Yeah, I mean, I really think I became this exact person in those two years in junior high with those three, you know?

[1099] And I think all three of us did in a way.

[1100] Anyways, I love them.

[1101] Oh, so lovely.

[1102] So, so lovely.

[1103] Yeah, we, a spoiler, we have an expert on Soon, who we've recorded, who talks about regret a lot.

[1104] One of the main regrets that people have is about social relationships, like letting them go.

[1105] Right.

[1106] Oh my gosh.

[1107] I wonder if that was somehow a seed in my head.

[1108] But I remember saying, yeah, in that episode that you have to recognize that it's a zero loss proposition.

[1109] Like you're free to reconnect because it'll be, quote, awkward or whatever.

[1110] And then maybe they won't want that.

[1111] But then again, you'll just be left with the thing you currently have, which is not a relationship.

[1112] So there's really no risk, weirdly.

[1113] Yeah, I agree.

[1114] It's a beautiful thing.

[1115] I mean, I think you're not giving y 'all.

[1116] much credit like it is brave it is hard to do and scary to do but you're right at the end of the day it's all a positive well hospitals in general are just scary like even if you saw someone yesterday just going to see people when they're vulnerable is is an anxiety provoking kind of situation yeah you're not like meeting up at a hotel or something yeah you have a tea time plan I mean, golf.

[1117] Yeah, I know.

[1118] Or, or.

[1119] Well, if you're English, though, for our British listeners.

[1120] Oh, I just wanted to say one more thing.

[1121] I'm listening to an incredible biography right now on George Washington, written by Ron Chernow, my favorite, who wrote Titan.

[1122] Your favorite, yeah.

[1123] Oh, my God, is he good?

[1124] And they just keep talking about, you know, the French Indian War, the French Indian War, the alliance with these Indians, Indians, Indians.

[1125] And I was like, I can't believe that.

[1126] a mistake.

[1127] The reason we call Native Americans Indians is the explorers thought they had hit India.

[1128] Yes.

[1129] And they were wrong and they quickly realized that no, they weren't in India.

[1130] Ah, fuck it.

[1131] Like that an error could be so lasting and just either no will to correct it or just like once it started, how do you put it back?

[1132] I've been like ruminating on how weird that a mistake can perpetuate itself for 350 years.

[1133] Forget them.

[1134] moral stuff.

[1135] I'm not even getting into the ethical.

[1136] I'm just going like, you had it wrong.

[1137] You weren't in India, but just call them Indians anyways forever.

[1138] Yeah.

[1139] Now I am getting a little bit into the moral thing, but it's easy to be like, ah, it's so annoying to have to change a name every two seconds.

[1140] There are reasons why if you're an indigenous person and you're like, this is all based in something totally wrong.

[1141] Erroneous belief they had landed in India.

[1142] Well, there's this inclination to think that things that have lasted a thousand years or i mean i just cherry picked that subtext that that means that it somehow has merit but no the mistakes last 400 years as well yeah things just fucking carry on they're like self -perpetuating once they're started any you i was fascinated by that yeah that's interesting oh let's hear about moni a little bit you mean bob no moni you oh me i don't there's not much to say you know besides the vortex that I'm in.

[1143] It's lovely.

[1144] So I'm here on a bachelor party.

[1145] Uh -huh.

[1146] Congrats to Laura.

[1147] Yes, big congrats to Laura and Matt.

[1148] And you're not cooking up there, so no Seinfeld stories.

[1149] No, I don't have any Seinfeld stories.

[1150] We are going to do wine and watercolor in a little bit, and I'm sure I'll have a story because I'm really bad at painting.

[1151] But really good at drinking wine.

[1152] That's right.

[1153] Mixed messages.

[1154] Very mixed messages.

[1155] Oh, you know what was really fun.

[1156] We had dinner last night a really yummy nice dinner.

[1157] Our tables were split, which I don't like that, but you know, it is what it is.

[1158] Our tables were split.

[1159] And because there were people who don't know each other, someone suggested to play an icebreaker game.

[1160] So we went around, we set our names and our ages.

[1161] Then we had to cast our parents.

[1162] Like, who would play our parents?

[1163] Oh, with other fun and really informative.

[1164] Oh my God.

[1165] I'm trying to think who I would cast as your dad.

[1166] You had to go colorblind, obviously.

[1167] Right.

[1168] It's not looks, vibe.

[1169] Oh, so me. Did you cast me if you dad?

[1170] What if I said that?

[1171] You showed up.

[1172] I can't imagine there's an actor whose vibe is more similar.

[1173] No, you're too, look, I love my dad so much, but you're cooler than my dad.

[1174] Like, he's not cool.

[1175] He's smart and interesting.

[1176] That's like the coolest thing, yeah, but I feel you.

[1177] No, you know what I mean, like swagger.

[1178] Sorry, Dad.

[1179] Yeah, yeah.

[1180] So I actually picked, for him, I picked James Gandalfini, but not in the Sopranos.

[1181] James Gandalfini in that movie with Julia Louie Dreyfus where he like spills food on his face, but he's really kind.

[1182] But he's like smart and kind, but spills food.

[1183] Yeah, has rewards on his face.

[1184] Oh, yeah.

[1185] He then goes to a homeopathic healer and gets rid of them with some herbs.

[1186] Yeah.

[1187] But don't you think that's kind of good?

[1188] Or no?

[1189] You don't look like you buy it.

[1190] No, because I think you know, you want to talk about swagger.

[1191] Here's a dude who maybe, you know, he's balding.

[1192] He was a little heavier and just the most confident guy on the planet.

[1193] Every woman in love with them, swag galore.

[1194] But my dad is confident.

[1195] Like, not, like, with the ladies, but he just like, he's just like, is sort of non -puls, plused, pulst, whatever that is.

[1196] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1197] Like, I don't ever think of my dad as, like, insecure.

[1198] I wouldn't, he's not.

[1199] No, for sure.

[1200] But probably because he's just not observant or paying attention.

[1201] I'm probably too locked into him as Tony Soprano, very violent, very aggressive.

[1202] Not that version, not that version.

[1203] Right, right, right.

[1204] Well, I want to give some time to this and think about the perfect casting for him because you're right.

[1205] It's got to be about the essence.

[1206] Yeah.

[1207] We can come back to it.

[1208] I would just as a way to whittle it down, I would start with our favorite writer's projects.

[1209] Aaron Sorkin?

[1210] Yes.

[1211] Okay.

[1212] Because you're dealing with characters who are super intelligent.

[1213] They're super self -assured.

[1214] Yeah.

[1215] They have a moral compass.

[1216] Like, you know?

[1217] A hundred percent.

[1218] But they all speak so eloquently.

[1219] Not that my dad doesn't, but he doesn't, like, he doesn't like wax.

[1220] Well, no, he does.

[1221] I don't know.

[1222] Yeah.

[1223] Yeah, we're going to circle back to this.

[1224] This will be an update.

[1225] I wonder if it's Brad Pitt Moneyball.

[1226] And we can't guess you as your mom.

[1227] You're an actor and you could play her.

[1228] You know her mannerism so well.

[1229] It's not that because there's talented people who could play anyone, but it's essence.

[1230] Like, I am not my mom's essence.

[1231] No, you're your dad's essence.

[1232] I think I'm a mix.

[1233] Yeah.

[1234] We said one of Laura's friends, Judy, who's very in the know, when I gave a description of my mom, she said, what about Catherine de Nouve?

[1235] And I was like, that seems kind of right.

[1236] Like a little austere.

[1237] I'm hearing that name for the first time.

[1238] De Nouve?

[1239] De Nive.

[1240] She's French.

[1241] And you would have seen her and stuff.

[1242] I saw her at Cannes.

[1243] Oh, I've gone here a big trip.

[1244] My big, big trip.

[1245] Oh, my God.

[1246] What?

[1247] Matt Damon would play your dad.

[1248] No. Yes.

[1249] No. Yes.

[1250] Don't say that.

[1251] This is wild.

[1252] Oh, my God.

[1253] This is so wild.

[1254] That's not even, no. Like, the character, look, look, remember him in our favorite movie of his, the informant?

[1255] Oh.

[1256] he can totally get rid of his his like sex charge he can put that right in the toilet if he needs to and then so intelligent like stands his ground you know but i just i i i can't get on board with this matt's too it's too because you're too attracted to matt yes because he's like your dad no don't do that yes yes yes ding ding ding ding ding ding ding was the game called edipid complex?

[1257] No, ew, I hate this.

[1258] It's taking a turn.

[1259] We only have a couple minutes, so we might not get to facts.

[1260] You know how I cast as your grandma?

[1261] Who?

[1262] Zazzy beats.

[1263] That's pretty good, and I'm not surprised.

[1264] Yeah, not surprised that was your choice.

[1265] Okay, well, I think we're just not going to get around to facts.

[1266] Well, do one.

[1267] Just do one.

[1268] Do you have one?

[1269] Yeah.

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] So this is Bob Odin Kirk.

[1272] I'll pick the best fact.

[1273] Oh, people are probably wondering, like, what do you mean you don't have time?

[1274] Well, I have therapy.

[1275] That's what's going on.

[1276] Yeah, we're on a time crunch.

[1277] And plus, we lost some minutes because of technical difficulties.

[1278] Yeah.

[1279] Okay, one really fun, one that's quick, is when did you do that Playboy interview?

[1280] Oh, great question.

[1281] Oh, can I guess what year?

[1282] Yeah.

[1283] I'm going to say 2007.

[1284] 12.

[1285] Oh, Jesus.

[1286] Wow.

[1287] 20 questions, Dax Shepard.

[1288] I wish I could read it.

[1289] because we don't have time.

[1290] Maybe next time.

[1291] Oh, my God.

[1292] This is a cool picture of you.

[1293] Is that you?

[1294] Am I on a motorcycle?

[1295] Yeah.

[1296] Yeah.

[1297] This is it.

[1298] Let me see.

[1299] Oh, I want that picture.

[1300] That's a very cool picture.

[1301] You're all muddy.

[1302] Yeah, well, Playboy then, you know, they had enormous budget, top -notch photographers.

[1303] Like, yeah, they got that motorcycle.

[1304] They had wardrobe.

[1305] This is cool.

[1306] Okay.

[1307] Well, next week I'll read it.

[1308] Okay.

[1309] Okay.

[1310] Oh, I'm so scared to hear that.

[1311] That's one of the last things I wanted to ever do in print because of the shadiness that happened.

[1312] Okay, I'm going to do one more.

[1313] How many inventions did Edison have?

[1314] Because you said like 8 ,000.

[1315] I mean, you were just like saying a number.

[1316] Yeah, hyperbolic.

[1317] He had 1 ,093 patents.

[1318] Okay.

[1319] And then it does stand a reason.

[1320] Those are the things he thought worthwhile to go get a patent on.

[1321] I'm sure he tried a bunch other things that didn't even hold up to that standard.

[1322] Yeah.

[1323] And how many are good?

[1324] What a guy.

[1325] What a guy.

[1326] There's on this history .com, there's six key inventions.

[1327] So people are talking about six, three, you know, you know.

[1328] It's in that realm.

[1329] Yeah.

[1330] Well, this, I'm so glad I got to check in with you during this fun bachelorette weekend.

[1331] Me too.

[1332] I hope you guys get a male stripper and that people, like, they dance close to your face and in their underwear.

[1333] It smacks you in the chin.

[1334] cheeks and stuff.

[1335] Flip the script on the patriarchy.

[1336] Right.

[1337] But this is what I've seen in other Bachelorette movies.

[1338] Sure.

[1339] I get that.

[1340] I'll let you go.

[1341] Yeah, I guess what version do you guys want to do of that.

[1342] That's what we should do.

[1343] None.

[1344] None of it, right?

[1345] Yeah.

[1346] Okay, that makes sense.

[1347] All right, I love you.

[1348] Okay, I love you.

[1349] Okay, have fun.

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