The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] Michelle.
[1] Thank you so much for joining me today.
[2] I've, I have been very excited to do this podcast because we've not seen each other for a long time.
[3] A long time.
[4] You've changed your hat.
[5] I know.
[6] It's actually in my bag.
[7] Oh, good.
[8] But this is, this is Steve and then the other hat is Stephen.
[9] So when I do like, you know, public stuff, I put on the Trilby style hat and then this is more cash.
[10] So I'm feeling cash today.
[11] Got it.
[12] Which is, um, credit to yourself.
[13] Um, so you are someone that.
[14] I met several years ago when you were working on Badoo, and we had like a client -supply relationship back then.
[15] Badoo, as many people will know, is a billion pound in the dating space.
[16] And it's achieved tremendous success.
[17] You were the co -CEO of Bidu at one point, but since then you've gone on to do some pretty inspiring things.
[18] And a number of my listeners on this podcast have been insisting I further the audience, the guests we've had on in into other realms and dating has been one of them people have been in search of a real empowering inspiring female CEO and leader because I've the feedback speaking honestly I've had is that we haven't had as many on so I've got a lot of things I want to ask you today um and all I ask as I do with all my guests is just for um honesty as much as possible if that's okay I can't help that amazing that's a good one so here's where I want to start to speed up the the process of getting today before I dig into those elements and it's a little game I play with all of my guests And if you're up for it, of course, are you able to tell us your life story in 30 seconds?
[19] And this is a good way of filtering out the significant moments, etc. But are you up for it?
[20] Love it.
[21] Okay, cool.
[22] So looking at the timer, three, two, one, go.
[23] I started life as a corporate lawyer.
[24] I moved into the dating industry.
[25] I became deputy CEO at Badoo, had a little boy, decided I needed to do something in the mother space, created peanut.
[26] Peanut launched a year and a half ago and we have 350 ,000 moms using it.
[27] You did that in 16 seconds.
[28] That's a really good one.
[29] So Peanut.
[30] What is Peanut?
[31] Peanut is an app to connect like -minded women who happen to be mothers and it's really thinking about how do we solve this issue of women who are entering this massive life stage and life change and yet there was no product which is modern, cool, feels fresh and speaks to this entire generation of women who have an expectation that things will be mobile first, that they'll feel like it's for them and not feel like it's for their mum and take a move away from some of the slightly more old -school forums and other products out there and really think about creating something for this modern woman who happens to be a mother.
[32] And that's peanut.
[33] If I'm a mother and I download Peanut and you're the CEO of Peanut, what are you hoping for me to come away with or get from Peanut in order for you as a CEO to consider it a success.
[34] I just want you to have an experience of finding someone who's like -minded and to find support.
[35] They say it takes a village to raise your child, right?
[36] But we don't live in our village anymore.
[37] We live everywhere.
[38] We move for different reasons.
[39] And so it's about finding that support network.
[40] If you make one valuable connection, if you get one piece of advice, if you meet your best mate, if you just feel better about the fact that you're up at 2am and there are, you know, thousands of other women doing the same as you, then it's a success for us.
[41] Why are you trying to solve this problem?
[42] Why are you?
[43] I had my little boy, went back to work.
[44] How old you little boy now?
[45] He's going to be four and a half.
[46] He's going to be five in December, which blows my mind.
[47] So I think when I met you, he was a babe.
[48] And when I had him, I just felt frustrated by the products that were out there.
[49] there was nothing that I felt was relevant to me. And more importantly, I felt it was patronising and a little bit infantilising that the products that were out there aimed at women who are mothers just didn't respect the other parts of who she was as a woman.
[50] It didn't respect the fact that I was also a businesswoman or also a partner, sister, daughter, whatever it might be.
[51] You know, we're so many different things.
[52] Motherhood is definitely the best part of who I am, but it's not the only part.
[53] And so I wanted to create a product for other women who maybe felt the same.
[54] So why me?
[55] I took everything I knew about dating and creating romantic relationships and applied it to women to help them find connections on a platonic basis.
[56] And then the product has evolved from there.
[57] And do you have a co -found?
[58] I do.
[59] My co -founder is Greg Olowski.
[60] He was the co -founder of Deliveroo.
[61] He's from a technical perspective.
[62] He's kind of less hands -on.
[63] These days we have a bigger team and it's, you know, still me kind of pushing forward on the, on the vision and the kind of the growth because that's the part which is so exciting and so important.
[64] So are you the only sort of full -time hands -on founder?
[65] I am.
[66] Is that, how lonely is that?
[67] It's tough.
[68] It's really hard, actually.
[69] I don't think anyone really talks about how lonely it can be as a founder.
[70] your job is higher make sure there's enough cash set the vision but part of all of that is keeping the team excited upbeat motivated and that is great when things are great and when things are feeling a bit tough or you're having a tough day you haven't really got anyone to share that with now it doesn't mean that I can't you know share it with Greg or share it with you know a mentor or or other people, but it can be quite challenging sometimes because it's all on you.
[71] What are the things when it comes to being an entrepreneur that are written in the, I don't know, the like the fantasy, because it's almost quite glamourized these days, the thought of like starting your own business.
[72] There's, you know, so many quotes like, be your own boss, you know, live your dream or someone else is going to live it for you.
[73] And it all kind of frames it in this really positive aspirational light.
[74] but I'm sure as a founder yourself, and especially in the tech space, where it's particularly, there are particular challenges.
[75] And in many respects in the tech space, it's almost like a yes or no answer to the product.
[76] Whereas in my business, it's success is kind of a direct result of how good I am at selling.
[77] And, you know, I, do you know what I mean?
[78] Whereas from running a tech business previously, it was really, does the market give a F about this?
[79] Right.
[80] So what are the things as a tech founder that you think are inaccurate when you think about the perception of entrepreneurship?
[81] You know, it is a constant, constant, all -consuming story.
[82] That means I wake up, I check peanut and I check my emails.
[83] That's before I do anything else, before I go to sleep.
[84] Sometimes in the middle of the night, I do the same.
[85] It is completely all -consuming.
[86] It is not a given that people will want to use your app just because you've created an app.
[87] It is not a given by any means.
[88] There are thousands of apps released on the App Store every day.
[89] And unless you have a really strong route to market, a really strong brand narrative, and you have product market fit, there is absolutely no guarantee that anyone's going to use the product you're creating.
[90] And there are so many people that come to me, I've got an idea for an app, and it always makes my heart sink a little bit because I'm always like, don't start the app.
[91] Don't start there.
[92] Apps are really expensive to build.
[93] It's really hard.
[94] Unless you know what you're looking at, you're going to burn through money pretty quickly.
[95] There are ways to test what you want to build without having to go all in with the app, right?
[96] That's just a fact.
[97] And so I think that things that I know, getting visibility on an app store, really challenging.
[98] Unless you know how you're going to do that, it's really hard.
[99] And that's a key factor in growth.
[100] Getting people to understand what you're doing and why you're different and why they should care, again, really challenging.
[101] Getting investment, you know, we're all very aware that it's hard to get investment as a woman, not impossible, but it is challenging.
[102] It has its own challenges.
[103] And I suppose because you can only be what you can see.
[104] And if I can only see, like, you know, older white males around me who are controlling the checkbook, that can make it challenging for me. And, and, if I can only see, like, you know, older white males around me, in terms of how do I get in there?
[105] How do I have the confidence to go and pitch what I'm saying?
[106] How do they understand the product that I'm building?
[107] Do you have self -doubt because of that?
[108] Oh, massive.
[109] But I have to say, it's a huge sweeping generalisation, right?
[110] There are people that you meet all the time who won't get what you're doing, and that's fine.
[111] There are people who you'll meet.
[112] They don't care that I'm a woman.
[113] They don't care that this is a product for moms.
[114] They care about the market size and business opportunity and how I'm going to tackle the problem.
[115] They're the people that you want on your side.
[116] They're the gems.
[117] And they do exist.
[118] You just have to find them.
[119] Self -doubt is something that can consume you if you don't keep it in check.
[120] And I suppose it's just having that element of what's the worst that can happen?
[121] Seriously, what's the worst that can happen?
[122] I can try and I can build something.
[123] If people don't like it, I'll try again and I'll keep trying.
[124] But that's not for the faint -hearted.
[125] Where does your desire to even try and build something come from?
[126] Why don't you just, and this is a question I ask, well, a lot of people, is why, of all the stress that it is involved with being an entrepreneur, why don't you just get, you know, normal job, things, you know, like, you know.
[127] I had a, I was going to say a normal job.
[128] There was nothing normal about my previous job, actually, but I had, I worked for someone else.
[129] I worked as part of someone else's business.
[130] I created things for someone else's business.
[131] I loved every minute of it.
[132] I loved what I did.
[133] But there came a point for me, and it doesn't happen to everyone, but there came a point for me where I wanted to go and try something because I had a concept, and I felt that there was a market that really deserved a product and deserved something better, and no one else was going to approach it in the way that I was.
[134] No one else is thinking about the dating industry and moms.
[135] You know, the two are fairly like polar extremes.
[136] No one was thinking about my thoughts about building the product or brand in the same way.
[137] And I felt like that should be me to go and try it.
[138] I feel like if this wasn't to work out, let's say, you would try something else, though.
[139] And where does that desire to keep trying stuff come from?
[140] Because obviously in this instance, in hindsight, you can say, oh, I tried it because I felt a problem.
[141] But really your perspective is to try and build something.
[142] from nothing probably that's what it sounds like you know what I think I never I didn't always have this mindset and I think it's really important to note that you can change your mindset I trained as a lawyer and I was a corporate lawyer and I was doing a lot of M &A and the very real fact is as a lawyer you are trained to spot risk and you find the risk and you do everything you can to avoid the risk and you know yourself it's completely the opposite when you're an entrepreneur you see it and you do it anyway be aware of it but you're going to do it it was only through time that that mindset changed where I was like, okay, I don't want to be the risk person anymore.
[143] I don't want to be that mindset.
[144] There are other ways to achieve things and, you know, Andre at Badoo really changed my mindset about that and I owe him a lot in terms of challenging me to think in different ways.
[145] There were times that I despised what he had me doing because I didn't want to go out and door -to -door hawk an idea that he had, but actually it was the best learning I ever had because I learned to think about things in a different way.
[146] If everything went wrong with peanut tomorrow, would I try something else?
[147] Yeah, I think that I really strongly believe if there's something wrong or there's a problem and you want to fix it, why can't it be you?
[148] Why can't you be the person to do it?
[149] And if that's a rhetoric that I want to pass on to my son and if that's a rhetoric that I want other women to feel inspired by, then I have to stand by it.
[150] And do you think it's harder for women to be successful entrepreneurs than it is for men?
[151] No, I don't think so.
[152] I think there are more challenges.
[153] I think there are obstacles.
[154] I think it's becoming better.
[155] I think that what's important is we keep having conversations about it and we keep enabling women to feel able to try.
[156] On my own personal standpoint, I for a long time had a really, really big fear of failure.
[157] I still do to a certain extent, but that worry of if it all goes wrong, what will that mean about me and my capabilities and it's only actually by spending a lot of time with engineers when engineers are like, what?
[158] But failing is how you get to the right answer, what are you talking about, that you kind of starts to think, right, it doesn't matter.
[159] So, yeah, that's, I don't think it should be harder for women.
[160] I think there are obvious challenges.
[161] And I think we're having conversations trying to make it better.
[162] I read somewhere that of the 90 ,000 kickstaters that were started over a certain period, I can't remember, only 30 % were started by women.
[163] And the general trend is that there are less female entrepreneurs than male entrepreneurs.
[164] Why is that in your mind?
[165] I know that it's a complicated set of factors, but...
[166] I think it's, you know, there is that Harvard study which says that man and woman go for an interview for a job, both at the...
[167] the woman is kind of has the qualifications for it.
[168] The man doesn't.
[169] The man gets the job because he goes in and he kind of talks about his potential and the woman goes in and talks about where she is right now and she talks, you know, quite factually.
[170] And I think that we have to help women to feel like it's not self -promoting.
[171] It's not a bad thing even if you are self -promoting.
[172] You know, this is about opportunity, creating those opportunities, diversifying what we see at investment level, diversifying what we see at the top tables so that we know that we have mentors or role models, getting young girls at school involved in the same things as boys so that it's not just the boys who are playing Lego or Minecraft or any of these things which are really developing their minds in kind of problem solving, but girls are doing it too.
[173] So that there's just such a full spectrum of things.
[174] What we do know is this, women -led businesses, businesses which have women on their boards perform better.
[175] And they outperform because it's a diversification of what we have.
[176] Why wouldn't we want that?
[177] It's good for everyone.
[178] It's good for business.
[179] Good for the economy.
[180] It's good for women.
[181] So if we know that those businesses perform better, let's get more of them.
[182] I can agree more.
[183] Social change is led by a woman.
[184] A remarkable one as well.
[185] Doing a much better job than I could do.
[186] So on the point of, I guess, like, sacrifice, what are the things, you know, it's having a four -year -old, the sacrifice is quite unique as well because it's, I guess, it's time with a child.
[187] And having a child in general is a tremendous sacrifice.
[188] But what are the sacrifices that you've had to make in order to pursue this dream you have?
[189] Sacrifice.
[190] It's really interesting.
[191] No one's ever asked me that, you know.
[192] Really?
[193] And it's, it's, I think it's really important because you have to kind of be eyes wide open when you're going into this.
[194] It is all consuming and it means that there will be things that for my son I might miss or I'll go to and I might miss something for work and then feel horrendous about it.
[195] And there is that constant like kind of juggling of the guilt.
[196] What do I feel more guilty about?
[197] That can be hard.
[198] but on a even on a more you know basic level sacrifice I had a nice salary I had a nice life and I don't have that anymore you know I hustle hard and I work hard and I I don't take a salary from peanut currently because I really want it to push forward I believe in it and that means that there are things that I can't do that I used to do I don't go out with my friends as much as I used to.
[199] I am that boring person who considers whether they can really afford to take that one night to see their friends because the next day they've got a full day of meetings and am I going to be on my top of my game?
[200] There are sacrifices in terms of personal relationships.
[201] It will take its toll on some of your friendships.
[202] Not all of your friends will understand that you are consumed by this thing that you're doing and that inevitably your conversation or your mind space might turn to it.
[203] That can be hard.
[204] Not everyone, will be on the journey with you, that can be hard.
[205] Do you ever worry that even if you succeed, it might not be worth it?
[206] No, I don't worry about that.
[207] It will be worth it because if I can just change one woman's experience of motherhood, if I can just change one woman's perspective on what it means to have this title mother, then it will be a success.
[208] And so the fact that there are women meeting, connecting, not feeling lonely, not feeling isolated, not feeling like they don't really fit within the description.
[209] That's success.
[210] So no, I don't worry about that.
[211] You mentioned having to take like a salary cut, something that I had to do the same when I started a social chain three and a half years ago.
[212] What role does money play as a motivator in your life?
[213] was that changed over time?
[214] Because for me, when I was 18 years old, I was convinced I was doing it to, I wanted to start a business to become a millionaire.
[215] And I would look at mansions and cars and I'd fantasize about them.
[216] And then at 25 years old, 24, 23, when I first got an offer to like sell the business, I remember 18 year old Steve showing up on that day.
[217] And he was literally went on auto trade and right move, like to look at what I could buy.
[218] And then that weird moment of confusion when I realized that I didn't want any of these things.
[219] And then I questioned why I was doing all of this.
[220] had to almost trying to refine my why because if I realized it wasn't about money then why was I working so hard why was it getting up every day?
[221] Why am I not seeing my family?
[222] Right.
[223] So what role has money as a motivator played in your own life?
[224] When I was a junior lawyer, my very first role as a junior lawyer I was paid 17 ,000 pounds a year and I felt rich.
[225] I'd gone from being a student I felt like it was the most money in the world I felt that anything was possible and I was a lawyer and I was earning this salary and it was only when I started to live and realize actually that's not going to take me so far that you know that you start on that almost like a treadmill of the more money you have the more you spend and I certainly really you know, have always worked hard.
[226] I've always had a tremendous work ethic because I think that's just something that I took from my kind of early career.
[227] You had to.
[228] And I earned well.
[229] Was it the thing that motivated me?
[230] No, can't be.
[231] Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to step out and do this.
[232] Does the potential of having a life -changing amount of money at some point excite me?
[233] Yes, but not because I want to stop working, because maybe it will give me the opportunity to do something else.
[234] People always say, you know, what's the goal?
[235] I don't know.
[236] In 10 years time, I would like to have my own fund that invests in women, for example, because I know that was a challenge.
[237] I'll be able to do that if I get to a point where I've exited peanut and I've made a life -changing amount of money.
[238] So it impacts me in terms of I want to work hard and I want to achieve things it's not the motivator in terms of i want to have a nicer car or um because i i don't know i just feel that that's it's like quite immediate and do you think uh what money what role does money play in your happiness um and happiness generally you know i don't i don't know i didn't come from money i worked hard i didn't i i want to give It's ironic.
[239] I didn't, you know, I went to school in Peterborough and now I want my son to have a better life than I did and I want him to have more opportunity than I did and I work hard for that.
[240] But equally, I want him to understand what working hard is and I want him to understand that, yeah, you get up at six and you grind and that's how it feels and some days it feels amazing and some days you're like the walking dead and that's okay and like I want him to experience those things and yet that massive like contradiction of and yet I, also want you to go to a better school than I did.
[241] And I want you to have more opportunity than I did.
[242] And I want you to see parts of the world that I never saw and still have never seen.
[243] So is it linked to happiness?
[244] It's not happiness.
[245] It's linked to security.
[246] I have an obligation to have a secure home for my son and a secure future for my son.
[247] And money is linked to that security but more what's more tied to happiness is like the integrity of work ethic and the integrity of feeling like yeah I did that for us and you can do it for you and that kind of reward I suppose that sounds really corny I don't mean it to be corny but and I think I'm asking this question for myself more than anything because you're an entrepreneur you've been in the working world longer than I have so what are the other things that you've figured out um make you happy.
[248] You made me sound really old there, Steve.
[249] You're just a couple years ago.
[250] I am actually odd these days.
[251] What are the other things?
[252] Professional integrity.
[253] Never really thought about that when I was younger.
[254] Not that I didn't have it.
[255] I just didn't care.
[256] Like, what's that?
[257] And now, to me, it's everything.
[258] I want people to know that I act with integrity and I want to act with integrity and I want to work with people who do.
[259] and that is really important and has become so much more important the older I get.
[260] Interesting.
[261] Because my mum used to say this weird thing of like, show me your friends and I know who you are.
[262] And I think about it a lot.
[263] I think it more and more as I get older.
[264] And so that is important to me. The importance of that network, there are people that I met along my journey who I never really understood why they might be important to me later in life, and yet they are.
[265] And just culturally within peanut, being a good person, being a good person doesn't mean you're weak.
[266] Being a good person doesn't mean that you're ineffectual.
[267] It just means that you are acting with good values.
[268] Those good values might be, I'm telling you that you're not doing a very good job today.
[269] That's okay.
[270] That's still good values because at least you're being open and you're acting with integrity, and that's important.
[271] And your intent is good.
[272] I think that's the important thing.
[273] Exactly that.
[274] If you're not trying to rip someone's self -esteem apart, you're trying to make them happy by being better in the future.
[275] Exactly.
[276] And it's good for you, and it's good for them, and it's good for the business.
[277] It's much worse to think you're being kind by kind of not really telling them or digging on them a bit, but not really getting to the point, and then discovering that actually you've really destroyed their confidence because that little dig that you've been delivering every day is really like buried somewhere within, them.
[278] And that's no good for your business either, right?
[279] So that's become more important, I think.
[280] So my next question is an interesting one, right?
[281] So kind of links to something you said earlier, but talking about dark days and sacrifice, etc. One of my worst ever days professionally, you might be, you're familiar with it.
[282] Am I?
[283] Because it involved you.
[284] Did it?
[285] What was it?
[286] So this was in our second year when we got hacked.
[287] Oh.
[288] Okay.
[289] So I've spoken about this on the podcast multiple times, right?
[290] And my audience on the podcast have probably heard me talk about this incident about three times, 6 a .m. in the morning, driving to work, get a email from my CFO saying, you didn't mean to send that to me, did you?
[291] Pulling over with Dom and then that continuing all day.
[292] Arriving at paintballing at 8am with my team and discovering that we were getting a lot more emails of that nature, pulling everybody back from paintball to go to the office, pulling up at the office and realizing that all of our clients, including you, had been sent very personal, very malicious, very offensive emails, including the marketing director of the NBA, the marketing director at Fox, who was one of our biggest clients at the time, and dealing with that backlash.
[293] Probably the hardest single day I've dealt with because I didn't have the perspective I have now.
[294] so I was still quite young in my like my experiences of going through tough, difficult situations and handling them.
[295] Probably today it wouldn't be, it'd be much easier to handle.
[296] I've got a question, and I've been meaning to ask you this.
[297] Do you remember that?
[298] I do now, but I haven't thought about that probably since it happened.
[299] And here's something I've always wanted to know.
[300] And I think because I've spoken about this on my podcast before, it'll be really interesting.
[301] You're one of those people that received an email of that nature.
[302] Can you talk about it from your perspective as a client and what what happened then because we have our perspective we know what went on our own and i've never known what went on it then so i remember it now um it wasn't about me it was about someone in the team was it yeah and so i remember it um i mean i remember receiving it i remember getting the email about it you know listen we've been hacked and you know you you're not the only one we're really sorry um what did i think i suppose at the time i you know just being honest i probably thought it was unprofessional um i thought that gosh this is like quite lambasting um i think i probably would have appreciated a phone call from you at the time i think we spoke maybe the next day or but at the time i was a bit like huh um but to be honest then i moved on with our day you know it was one of those things that happened um i haven't thought about it since so the question is what's your toughest day and are you able to share that what's the one day when i when i say that to you that jumps out and you think fuck that was the day that i nearly didn't yeah i've i've had some pretty tough days dark days um with peanut um one of them is kind of work related but but nothing to do with directly peanut um it was a per person personal relationship with someone who I really considered to be a friend.
[303] And it broke down in the most like dramatic and catastrophic way for reasons that I just didn't really understand.
[304] And it wasn't actually until very recently that I started to understand them and they still don't, you know, that's gone past.
[305] But that was very, very low.
[306] And it was a member of the team?
[307] It was someone that I had formerly worked with.
[308] Okay.
[309] And it hurt me in a way that I didn't know was possible when it comes to business.
[310] I think the reason that it felt so bad and made my day feel so low or the time feels so low is because I really wanted this person to be on the journey with me because I'd been part of a journey with them.
[311] Okay.
[312] And that felt really hard.
[313] Lonely portrayal, was it like?
[314] A bit of despair, a bit of confusion, self -doubt.
[315] Because they didn't believe in you?
[316] No, no. It was something far more basic than that.
[317] But I started to think, I don't want this, actually.
[318] Maybe this is not what I want.
[319] Maybe I just want to go and get that nine to five.
[320] And not, like, raise my head above the parapet and kind of stand out and, you know, have this product and be a founder.
[321] And I want to go and run someone else's business again is actually what I thought.
[322] So they shook your self -esteem on.
[323] Exactly.
[324] Yeah.
[325] That was hard.
[326] And what's your best ever moment in the last, specifically with creating peanut?
[327] What's been the moment you're most fond of?
[328] I think it was.
[329] being peanut at WWDC, which is the big Apple developer conference, and Tim Cooks on stage.
[330] And there's little peanut, like, there's my little face bobbing around.
[331] And then they later did that kind of conversation around peanut being the first, like, and then meet the developer on the new app store.
[332] We were the first company they featured.
[333] We were four months old.
[334] we were genuinely i've just i couldn't believe it i couldn't understand that our tiny little company of five people had created something where people at apple knew who we were let alone they were were talking about us at the biggest event of the year for them um it was also cool because like you know average person in the street wasn't seeing it it was like our peers it was like people who were at WWDC, developers, engineers, like other geeks, for one of a better word, that were seeing us.
[335] And that was, to me, really exciting.
[336] I felt so proud.
[337] It was testament to peanut and the team.
[338] And it was testament to Apple, like, even knowing who we were and recognizing, yeah, and recognizing what we were doing for women who were mothers, that was massive.
[339] It will always be one of the best days.
[340] even though I forget to enjoy it.
[341] So that's your best day and on the other hand we've got like your worst days.
[342] What's your average day like?
[343] What's your average routine?
[344] I don't think you know yourself.
[345] I don't know if there is an average day.
[346] I mean, it really depends.
[347] Yesterday was very much like an office day and I was really doing a lot of data work speaking with the team about product and priorities and that kind of thing.
[348] Today has been a bit more I've been to investors, I've had some calls, I'm having a great chat with you.
[349] I've got another, like, so it's a bit more random.
[350] Some days we're working on, like, branding and marketing.
[351] So there is no, like, average day.
[352] I suppose the days when I come home and I feel like nothing got off that list, nothing moved off that list.
[353] They're the days where I...
[354] But you're naked.
[355] Yeah, and you feel like you've been on it, but nothing's really changed.
[356] They're the days where I suppose I feel the most, like, this has been an average day, and I don't mean average and kind of normal, just average in terms of, you know.
[357] And different.
[358] Yeah.
[359] What you mentioned earlier about relationships and the impact that running a business has had on your relationships, but, you know, from my own experience, as a single guy still.
[360] Yeah.
[361] And actually since we met, I did have a girlfriend for about a year.
[362] But being a single guy still, I've seen the impact on romantic relationships and trying to find people that understand what my world is like.
[363] I noticed that you've got a massive ring on your finger.
[364] Oh, thanks.
[365] You're married.
[366] It's not bad.
[367] I am.
[368] What impact is, if you're able to share, running a business like this and creating a business from nothing had on the romantic relationships?
[369] That is really hard.
[370] And that again is something that no one never really speaks about and no one really told me about.
[371] I'm really, really, really, really fortunate in that my husband is a bit older than me. and he has his own career in a different totally different field but he's really really supportive and I don't just mean supportive to me I mean to our home life he's really like 50 50 with Finn my little boy everything is a shared like obligation or like juggle so tomorrow is Finn's first day at school and I am going to drop him off and pick him up because I really want to do it but then I have to go to Sweden for a couple of days for an investor event and then Rich will be on and it's his kind of over to him and we really share that and I'm really fortunate for that.
[372] I'm also really fortunate for the fact that he is like the biggest team peanut supporter and like he's like our biggest stalker.
[373] He finds like weird bits of press that we didn't even know we had.
[374] He's he's really like fully involved but also because he's an amazing cheerleader and will always say, you know, keep going or, you know, doesn't matter if that one hasn't worked out.
[375] What about the next one or whatever it is?
[376] He is amazingly proud and supportive.
[377] That said, it is hard.
[378] I travel a lot.
[379] I'm away from them both.
[380] That's really tough.
[381] How do you keep a relationship alive when your mind is all consumed with your company, which becomes, you know, whether you like or not in some respects, has to become your priority at certain points?
[382] How do you then juggle being a mother, but then also being a wife and a partner.
[383] That's so hard.
[384] I mean, it is really hard.
[385] Sometimes we're having a conversation and I'm only partially participating because in my head I'm thinking about all the things that I need to do that are peanut -related.
[386] I think it's about forgiveness, a lot of forgiveness in our house.
[387] I'm sorry.
[388] And a lot of kind of, okay, I understand and we have to be like that.
[389] And communication, if I'm being shit, He's very clear about it.
[390] And vice versa, if I feel like he's not really understanding what I'm working on or going through, I'm pretty vocal about it.
[391] I think it's just accepting we're human, right?
[392] We get stuff wrong all the time.
[393] Sometimes I'm the world's most amazing mom, and sometimes I'm not.
[394] And sometimes I'm killing it at work, and sometimes I'm not.
[395] And that's just the way it is.
[396] And it's about getting over it and giving myself a bit of a break.
[397] I sent Finn to school he wasn't in fancy dress it was a fancy dress day I felt like the worst mom in the whole world Finn probably hasn't thought about it since I'm still scarred but I'm trying to like move on from that and like next time I'm never going to make that mistake again right so it's just about balance juggle whatever and with all the struggles and all the sacrifices and such there's often consequences for entrepreneurs that are much deeper and I think one of the big things that has taken a greater share of conversation in the world of being an entrepreneur and a founder and a CEO, along with the thoughts of, you know, like loneliness is all of our, what's the word, all of our, the importance of taking care of your mental health because it is so lonely and because it's high stress, high pressure and working within like a tech startup.
[398] And a startup in general, there are unique pressures that nobody will really understand that has a nine to five job where they don't have to worry about the bank balance, making sure everyone gets paid.
[399] When it comes to mental health and entrepreneurship, what are the things that you think are important?
[400] And have you been through any of your own battles that you're able to share?
[401] I'm an insomniac.
[402] I really don't sleep very well.
[403] And I'm getting better.
[404] But there was a period of time last year where it was unrelenting every night.
[405] I'm I was maybe sleeping for an hour or two.
[406] And it was like having a new baby.
[407] And the honest truth is not sleeping is so detrimental to your health.
[408] It is like a form of torture.
[409] And when you're trying to run a business with clarity and be visionary and yet you feel a bit like a zombie, that's really tough.
[410] And I had to do something about it because it was, you know, It's just really getting on top of me. You can't function.
[411] And also, you know, you look skinny and you just don't feel like the best version of you.
[412] And that was pretty tough.
[413] Do you know what caused that?
[414] Was it a new thing in your life or was it?
[415] I would say it was relatively, I've never been an amazing sleeper, actually, since I had my little boy.
[416] Before that, I was literally that person who would sleep in a nightclub and that didn't bother me. But like, since Finn, my sleep was not as great.
[417] I think the cause was anxiety, like being new to being a founder, as you said, knowing what it's like to keep the lights on, knowing how much runway you've got, what your burn is, you know, are you going to raise money again?
[418] All of those things, is the product working, crazy things that pop into your head at 3am and make you sweat and your heart race.
[419] And that can be really tough.
[420] I started using an app.
[421] um which help calm yeah uh for sleep stories to help me get to sleep like the meditation stuff wasn't really working because I couldn't really lose myself in the meditation my thoughts were just even louder but the sleep stories were good Stephen fry like talking to you about lavender or whatever that was pretty good um and that did make a big difference not checking my emails past 11 o 'clock and you know turning my phone onto airplane that made a difference um not having a glass of wine every night and you know all of those that did make a difference so i think um that's that's all had an impact people don't really talk about it and i suppose there is this element of a little bit of bravado right sure i founded this company i'm going to make it work i'm not going to be like a nutcase or i don't want anyone to think i'm like crazy or whatever as a stigma which is right which isn't which isn't conducive with being a, you know, a leader, right?
[422] Exactly that.
[423] So that's, they almost act in opposite of like, well, the stigma, and I've got to be clear on this, the stigma, I'd say the old stigma of having mental health issues was people would run from you because you're weak and you can't control yourself and you're, you know, you're out of control.
[424] And the association of a leader is someone that's in control, that's strong, that is to be followed.
[425] And they kind of play it opposite ends of the spectrum.
[426] And does anyone want to hear that they're, their CEO was up at 2 a .m. with the sweats because she was freaking out about, I don't know, runway.
[427] No, no one in the team needs to know that.
[428] That's my issue.
[429] And so I suppose it was just finding different ways and outlets to manage that.
[430] And just recognizing that, you know, it's not good to work on no sleep.
[431] I think all of the CEOs and entrepreneurs, that I've interviewed on this particular podcast, have said the exact same thing.
[432] But I've never heard it from them until I've asked.
[433] And when you think about it, it makes perfect sense, because the type of person that has to be the leader and has to care about all of those things is going to be most susceptible to things like anxiety and, you know, loneliness and other forms of, you know, mental health issues that are derived from the role.
[434] So I think it's important to talk about more, you know, and I definitely for sure.
[435] how do you want to be remembered by your son let's say oh by my son uh i want to be remembered by finn as someone who worked tirelessly but played tirelessly with him too like i always want him to feel like we have fun and we have serious moments too but we go out and we do things we went to see matilda the musical last weekend and it was you know, just trying to make it so that he knows that mommy works hard, but she always has time for me. It's really important to me. We're reading, like we're working our way through Roll Dahl at the moment.
[436] So we read a chapter of George's Marvelous Medicine every night.
[437] And it's really important to me that that's our thing.
[438] And I want him always to remember that we had our things.
[439] Sure.
[440] Two more questions then.
[441] My next one just sprung to mind.
[442] You're a remarkable role model for all entrepreneurs, but because of the point of relatability and people seeking out a role model that they can relate to, as I do for young black men and certain minorities I've found, you'll probably found already that you are a much stronger role model to people who can relate to you.
[443] So I'm a 18 -year -old young woman looking to start a business.
[444] What is your advice to me going into the business world?
[445] And specifically, I want to start a business in tech.
[446] I think my advice is speak to as many people as you can.
[447] Get information from people, learn from people, be around people.
[448] you can go into a business for a day and shadow someone and sit and watch them and unless you're asking what they're doing, why they're doing it, most people want to tell you.
[449] Most people want to help you anyway.
[450] So just getting in and speaking to people is really important.
[451] What do you mean by tech?
[452] Tech could be engineering.
[453] Tech could be product.
[454] Tech could be marketing.
[455] I'm a, I'm a, it's fine for it to be vague.
[456] Exactly.
[457] And the point is there are no limitations.
[458] And when I was growing up, definitely, I was like the first person in my family to go to university and the messaging was always, you can be anything you want as long as it's a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant or a teacher.
[459] And that was what I was presented with, work hard and go and be one of those things.
[460] Okay, I went with lawyer.
[461] I liked Ali McBeal at the time.
[462] You're too young.
[463] You can google it.
[464] And I think that that was so prescriptive and I never knew what the big wide world.
[465] I never knew what was out there.
[466] So it's okay to, like, go and explore and find different things.
[467] And not to know.
[468] And not to know.
[469] Read.
[470] Go read.
[471] Speak to people.
[472] Read about it.
[473] Like, don't be like hard on yourself and prescriptive.
[474] And then be dogged and get a thick skin because you're going to need it.
[475] Some of the, like, you're going to get rejections or you're going to, you know, get things wrong.
[476] It's okay as long as you're kind of put yourself up and get back and do it again.
[477] How do I know if my idea is good, though?
[478] You have to speak to people.
[479] You cannot create a product for yourself.
[480] You have to speak to people.
[481] Everyone says yes.
[482] Everyone says it's great.
[483] My mom, my sister, my best friend.
[484] Yeah, no good.
[485] As much as that's amazing.
[486] You have to go and speak to your user base.
[487] And so even with peanut, I spoke to one woman and then every, I would always get that woman to introduce me to another woman, right?
[488] So it's not my network.
[489] So that woman would then give me the number or email address of another woman, and I'd speak to her and get her view, and on and on.
[490] And what it also meant is when it came to launch Peanut, I had 100 women who I could go and see the product with and say, here's what you help me build.
[491] What do you think?
[492] They're natural ambassadors for your product.
[493] They're going to go and share the word.
[494] That was really important.
[495] Amazing.
[496] Last question then.
[497] The table was sat at right now has four edges, right?
[498] So it has like this bit here, this bit here, this bit here.
[499] We can, this, we're going to have delivery because that's the co -founder's business.
[500] And, um, We're going to invite four guests to this table, dead or alive.
[501] Oh.
[502] Who are those guests and why?
[503] And also want to know what we're ordering from delivery.
[504] Such a good question.
[505] Who are we having?
[506] I'm going to say two really random ones.
[507] We're going to have Jackie Kennedy.
[508] Jackie O. I don't know who that is.
[509] What?
[510] I know.
[511] I knew you were going to say that.
[512] Because I could tell by your face.
[513] Steve, like JFK.
[514] Oh.
[515] Jackio.
[516] Jackio, Nassus.
[517] Okay, we're going to have Jacqueline Kennedy because I have a friend who is just completely all knowledgeable about the Kennedy family and it really is something that I find so interesting that she's so into it and she got me into it and I watched the Natalie Portman movie and I got really into it so I'd love to sit with her.
[518] She was a cool woman.
[519] And I think the other person I would like to have the founder of Verve Clico, the champagne.
[520] So her husband died and she was amazing and changed the label to yellow.
[521] So you know the label is yellow.
[522] And no champagne was yellow.
[523] And she was basically this unbelievable, like female champion hundreds of years ago.
[524] I'd check that fat, but a long time ago.
[525] and really was like at the forefront of the kind of changing a perception, taking something that was there and loved and respected and changing the perception slightly and running that business and, you know, how amazing.
[526] What story is she could tell?
[527] So they're the two.
[528] There's still two more.
[529] Weird.
[530] What?
[531] I thought it was.
[532] Four seats.
[533] This is.
[534] Four seats.
[535] Okay.
[536] They're my two.
[537] I'm going to go with Frida Callow.
[538] My little boy is obsessed with Frieda Callow.
[539] He's got this book, and he reads about her all the time.
[540] And I've got this, like, weird flower thing that I wore for some fancy dress.
[541] And he's always like, wear it, Mommy.
[542] You'll look like Frida Callow.
[543] I don't know anything about art. I'm really ignorant about art. I just have feelings about stuff that I like.
[544] And I don't, you know, it's not something that I grew up around.
[545] And it's like something that I actually have to try hard to understand.
[546] But I do love her.
[547] And I love her story and I'm interested in her story with Diego.
[548] And so I think she would be amazing and fascinating.
[549] She would be number three.
[550] And number four, I'm going to bring my best mate, Sophie, along because I think she's a journalist for the BBC.
[551] And I think that the thing that I find most interesting about Sophie is that she is so nosy and has brilliant questions.
[552] so she would make sure that we got all of the best information out of those women.
[553] Nice.
[554] And what would we be eating?
[555] Yeah, that's a good one.
[556] I eat so much junk food.
[557] I'm terrible for it.
[558] So...
[559] It's your favourite food.
[560] We'll just go for that.
[561] I love pasta.
[562] I like Vietnamese.
[563] I like steak.
[564] I like steak.
[565] I'm a feeling good like pasta.
[566] Yeah.
[567] Italian.
[568] Italian.
[569] More important than the food is the wine.
[570] Okay.
[571] A really good red Italian wine.
[572] We'll have the best night.
[573] Amazing.
[574] Well, thank you so much for your time.
[575] Michelle, I've really enjoyed it.
[576] And I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people that want to reach out to you for various reasons.
[577] But where can we find you?
[578] It's the easiest place to get in touch.
[579] Probably Instagram these days or peanut.
[580] Okay.
[581] Amazing.
[582] Thank you so much.
[583] And I'm sure we'll continue our conversations off the microphone.
[584] Thank you so much.
[585] Thank you.