100 - The 100th Episode

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hey, this is exciting.

[2] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[3] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[4] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[5] Who killed Saz?

[6] And were they really after Charles?

[7] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[8] This season, murder hits close to home.

[9] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[10] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[11] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[12] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[13] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[14] Only murders in the building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[15] Goodbye.

[16] Oh, Stephen, please edit that.

[17] Hey, it's the 100th episode.

[18] of my favorite murder.

[19] Remember the podcast you've listened to 99 .08 times?

[20] Holy crap.

[21] I'm pouring myself and Steven a glass of this beautiful rosé champagne that today I was, Vince and I were walking by this wine store and I was like, oh, let me go and get a bottle for the 100th episode.

[22] And I'm looking through this thing and this cute girl with blue hair is like, I love the podcast.

[23] I'm like, oh my God, thank you.

[24] And then the chick behind the counter who owns the place is like, I love it too.

[25] And they both started like talking to me about it.

[26] And it was really sweet.

[27] And so I just wanted to say thank you to Inovino, to Suzanne at Eno Vino and Jen Spain photography.

[28] Well, exciting.

[29] I have a cup of tea.

[30] I have a cup of tea and we have a cake from Carvel.

[31] That's right.

[32] Stephen went and picked it up at the one Los Angeles location.

[33] that's been there for a long time.

[34] Yeah, they've been there for a while and they were very sweet and...

[35] Yeah, they've been after us to give it to us.

[36] Yeah.

[37] So fucking cool.

[38] I mean, I don't even remember having the conversation about talking about how we were going to have this cake on this day.

[39] I don't remember we were talking about 99 episodes worth of things.

[40] So true.

[41] Here we are.

[42] And yet, we're just going to keep on talking.

[43] Yeah.

[44] Blotty, blah.

[45] Let's...

[46] First, we have presents from Stephen.

[47] Yeah.

[48] let's just describe these because we walked upstairs into the beautiful podcast loft and on the podcast coffee table there are two what I refer to as hat boxes gorgeous red like gilded hat boxes spoilers okay oh okay other hats another hat oh my god this is beautiful it is oh oh oh oh these are these head mics Are these microphones for They're like Are these like Janet Jackson mics?

[49] Steven Oh my God Stephen got us head mics This is what We're having a hundred podcast is like Holy shit Steven We're gonna record We're gonna record like gamers Do when they record themselves for YouTube It's totally true When you can do all your dance moves And everything oh Stephen you can like you can move your body the way you've always wanted to Karen when we're recording I've wanted one of these my whole life shut up I've just never had a reason for it I love it Stephen thank you we didn't get you we're going to no I'm so glad you like that I mean just like they're just so fun they're beautiful just watching Janet Jackson's just like yeah do it oh we're gonna be on the next level can we plug them in now that might take a while can we just put them on though yeah you can just wear them okay um they kind of look like um like retain what are the retainers that people head gear they look like head gear if you need a visual and it's totally like what someone would wear like in top gun or something like that and they have like um they've got like foam it's just really intense i feel like i get um very it's not that often that someone gives me the perfect gift because I do I don't I don't talk about what I like that much I only talk about and focus on what I hate um and this is just such a fucking hilarious this is such a perfect gift it's such a lovely uh it's so perfect for such a lovely gesture for us for this occasion everything about it thank you I've never been happier in my life oh my gosh well it's just yeah You're blushing.

[50] A special day.

[51] Thank you.

[52] You know what it is?

[53] He's forced to listen to us.

[54] Uh -huh.

[55] So he has to, he has to pay attention to what we say.

[56] He doesn't want the mic to keep bumping against my teeth anymore like it always does.

[57] The foam on teeth is real gross to begin with.

[58] How is your, the background noise of just gift wrap paper constantly being touched?

[59] I mean, that's the new ASMR thing.

[60] Oh, yeah.

[61] Karen, I think that you're just going to start wearing this always.

[62] I think you're exactly right.

[63] Like to sleep and, when you're in the car and you're on the phone.

[64] I have to say I have a lot of the same feelings that I had when I was, I think I've told you the story when I was like four or five.

[65] And my aunt Jean gave my sister a pair of red cowboy boots for her birthday.

[66] And the second I saw her open the box, I screamed, grabbed them, put them on and would not take them off.

[67] And I wore them for like three years.

[68] And this, I have very much the same feeling with this.

[69] Can I say, so you and I had blah, blah, blah said, like, we'll get each other presents for the hundredth episode.

[70] So that looks great.

[71] on you.

[72] Does it?

[73] Oh, my God.

[74] You look like, um, you look like you work at a call center.

[75] Thank you.

[76] You're welcome.

[77] You look like, you know, like Anne Rule in the 70s with Ted Bundy.

[78] You look like you work next to Ted Bundy.

[79] I'm trying to help people, but I'm also making friends with one of the most legendary serial killers of all times.

[80] Yes.

[81] Yeah.

[82] Um, so I was like, well, what do I get Karen and I've been stressing about it for like a week?

[83] Spoiler alert.

[84] I got you nothing, which is totally my style.

[85] I stressed and stress, don't do anything about it.

[86] You froze.

[87] So I had, but I had good ideas.

[88] And it actually, initially, those red cowboy boots you've talked about, I was going to get a cake made that were red cowboy boots.

[89] Oh, my God.

[90] No, I didn't do it, though.

[91] No, but that doesn't matter.

[92] That's an amazing idea.

[93] I had a couple, so I want points for them, even though I didn't do it.

[94] You get 50 points for red cowboy boot cake.

[95] I have a great imagination and crippling anxiety that doesn't let me do anything about it.

[96] It's that follow through, but I am an honest believer and it's the thought that counts.

[97] I am too.

[98] I really am.

[99] I am too.

[100] Okay, great.

[101] So that was going to be one.

[102] Then I was thinking I'd either go get.

[103] a tattoo or have a tattoo artist come here for us and give us SSDGM tattoos while we were recording but I couldn't remember if you wanted one or not okay well then I would have gotten one I mean I love the idea of it yeah but I want to get one just not me I have a tattoo that I shouldn't have gotten in the first place and in getting it realized I'm not a tattoo person I get that um so that like Christmasy gift wrapping gorgeous just a pan of cheesy potatoes like my lady from unhealthy obsessions or whatever that TLC show is oh yeah because you love cheesy potatoes and we eat them backstage a lot yeah so I was gonna do some version of potato and cheese or pasta and cheese right maybe mac and she I make a good mac and cheese maybe that green things make us cry someday cheesy potatoes yeah save our life well uh here's thank you for all those thoughts and for stressing about it that's even more of a gift of, like, drew anxiety over it means a lot.

[104] I came up with the idea.

[105] And when you said, oh, really?

[106] Like, and then I was like, yes.

[107] And then immediately forgot and haven't thought about it since I walked in the door.

[108] And you were like, I didn't get you anything.

[109] And I was like, okay.

[110] You're like, oh, why would you?

[111] I don't ever get me anything.

[112] And I'm like, but we both said.

[113] But immediately I was like, oh, thank God.

[114] She forgot to or she like didn't do it either.

[115] It's just so classic me. That would be like my bossy idea.

[116] Yeah.

[117] And then I'm just like, I don't know what you're talking about.

[118] Anyway.

[119] Well, because I didn't follow through, right?

[120] Yes.

[121] You have no memory of it and I have no follow through.

[122] And together, that's 100 episodes, man. Dude, we are, we, it was a match made in heaven for real.

[123] It really was.

[124] Because it's like, it's a friend of mine the other day.

[125] I forgot.

[126] We had made dinner plans and then she texted me. I was like, now, like, I had to move one night on her.

[127] Then she texted and she was like, now I have to move a night.

[128] And I was like, yay.

[129] Like, it's never bad news to me. Yeah.

[130] When you flake, cancel.

[131] Oh, God, I love it.

[132] Or I just never hear from you again.

[133] It's always a relief to me. If you see me out at night, I really like you.

[134] You know what I mean?

[135] Yes.

[136] Or you, you already think I'm a flake and I can't, I've used up all my flakingness on you.

[137] Yes, you're scared.

[138] Yeah.

[139] There are a couple of friends that are like, oh, you're actually here.

[140] But then they're always like, but you always make me come to your side of town.

[141] When I'm like, where should we go?

[142] I'm like, down the street.

[143] It's so great over here.

[144] Well, but here's the thing.

[145] And this is how it is sometimes.

[146] You've got a cop if you live in an area where it's just not that cool yeah like you can go out this is the thing you have to like master a plan you have to think of everybody in the plan because there are people who are like oh i'm married and have a kid so if we go to dinner i don't give a shit where we go because it's all the same to me but if you're like a single lady trying to maximize your time because you finally left the house after two weeks you don't want to go to fucking the grandma restaurant at 6 p .m. don't want to go to like when you're single and your friend's like just come over and we'll make i'll make dinner like no No, I want the possibility of seeing a hot guy at a bar.

[147] Don't waste my time in front of your TV.

[148] No, I 100 % get that.

[149] Yes.

[150] Yeah.

[151] It's like if I, if I'm going to make the monstrous effort.

[152] Oh, yeah.

[153] Of putting clothes on this body and rolling on outside, we've got to actually do something that's like worth the while.

[154] Plus there's no way your fucking whatever salad you throw together is going to be good as like a cheese plate from the fucking nice restaurant.

[155] Yes.

[156] And let's spend some money.

[157] Come on.

[158] Come on.

[159] Let's do it.

[160] It's Christmas time.

[161] And did you hear about the asteroid that came within three miles of the earth?

[162] No, I love that, though.

[163] I mean, guys, we're on a clock.

[164] Let's maximize this fun.

[165] Please, this Christmas season.

[166] I went to my Hanukkah party last weekend, over the weekend, which was super fun.

[167] And all my young sweet cousins listen to the podcast.

[168] No, how young?

[169] Well, they're like in there, they're like just out of college.

[170] So they're all cool.

[171] Savannah, Gillian.

[172] Hi, ladies.

[173] Hi.

[174] They're just like sweet little angels and then and I love them.

[175] It's so very cool.

[176] Yeah, I am I have family too who are like it's people that you don't expect.

[177] I was the young like 20 year olds that I know that that like Lauren and Connor and Johnny know are my family.

[178] No. I'm always like they don't care about anything from my era.

[179] Like why would they?

[180] Right.

[181] We're boring old people.

[182] We're boring old people.

[183] They're all making their own homemade point.

[184] it's like the life the way we live is so different that it's like we might as well be from different sides of the planet so good god bless go do your thing yeah so when they come and they're like oh my god all my friends like you it's like what it honestly feels like a ghost has walked through the wall and been like oh my god we like you on our side it's like validating you suddenly it's like oh my god i'm not it's validating you from people that you're like i have to dismiss your group because it's sad when old people want young people to think they're cool.

[185] But podcasts, there's something about them.

[186] It's all old people.

[187] It's mind control.

[188] It's mind control.

[189] Mm -hmm.

[190] How's my headset look?

[191] It looks still glorious.

[192] You look like Judith from HR.

[193] And then every time you say something in it, you have to touch the ear piece lightly.

[194] That's right.

[195] Because I'm also, I have to be honest, I'm a little bit playing newscopter for pilot.

[196] Like I'm a traffic reporter right now.

[197] We have Karen K in the sky.

[198] guys I'm looking right down at the I -5 and everything's on fire oh on my way here that's the only thing you can say that's like the only time that rain care and chaos is when there's a fire in the Southland it's always on fire hey it's 2018 and we're on fire um sorry I did a terrible radio voice but on the exit to come here there was a there was a slow down of course it was I went five miles an hour the whole time this it's so fascinating to talk about LA traffic Oh, everyone loves it.

[199] But when I took the exit, there was like a huge tow truck.

[200] And then when we all had to drive by it real slow, it was a Maserati that had rear -ended like a Kia.

[201] And it was, I laughed so hard because a Maserati is, why do you drive that car?

[202] No. You're just flossing.

[203] You're just trying to make people think you're important.

[204] Oh, God.

[205] And then.

[206] Our one listener who drives a Maserati right now is like, I fucking knew it.

[207] My brother told me it was cool.

[208] I fucking do it.

[209] I fucking know it.

[210] You know, and I'm taking this fork.

[211] We brought forks up here.

[212] I'm digging into this Carvel cake.

[213] Eating food on a podcast into a microphone is now AMSMR, right?

[214] It's ASMS and ASAP.

[215] Oh my God.

[216] Isn't that so good?

[217] Fuck.

[218] Okay, let's fucking cooking channel unique sweets this for a minute.

[219] Do it.

[220] Can I say?

[221] Yeah.

[222] Steven, are you going to eat any of this?

[223] Stephen, there's a pork.

[224] Fudgy the whale cake.

[225] I said, grab the cake.

[226] and three forks and you got so excited that I didn't say plates yeah because there's no fucking chance we're cutting this and putting on plates what kind of monsters do you think we are yeah this isn't fucking tea time with Karen and Georgia or whatever um it it's an ice cream cake but there's like a layer of marshmallow fluff in it it's crunchy from the like it's like cookie pieces that's what it's like famous for right right and it's got the like fudgy um frosting and just a little bit of cake it's not a ton of cake it's there's barely any cake that there's also a strip of caramel oh my god underneath this fudge frosting it's like my mouth is watering and i'm eating it at the same time that's how good it is what's really fun about eating a thing wait i should talk i should talk in the microphone what's really fun about eating a thing like this like when you become an adult is you get to eat it and make as big a mess as you want yeah also here's what's really funny i think there's a lot of people in the East Coast that probably think this is hilarious because we're describing a thing that'd be like oh my god it's like the peanut butter is right next to the jelly where they're like yeah everyone's had this you don't need to describe it this is our childhood thing nobody cares anymore every single person had this for their birthday party yeah it's like you but we didn't no I've never had that in my life neither it's the best fuck let's get sugar high mm -hmm and party mm -hmm you know it's so funny lift we can get into it really quickly someone tweeted today at us.

[227] Yes.

[228] And said, okay, hold on.

[229] Stephen, wait, hold on.

[230] They said, please eat a whole cake on the show.

[231] And I said, sounds great.

[232] And we did it.

[233] I'd love to.

[234] He said, you know what, that's a great idea.

[235] That's my gift to you is dessert for dinner.

[236] Oh my God.

[237] That's so good.

[238] I want to cry.

[239] Steven, don't you love it?

[240] Stephen, keep eating it.

[241] Keep eating it.

[242] Keep eating it while I find this tweet.

[243] Hey, this is exciting.

[244] An all new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[245] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[246] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[247] Who killed Saz?

[248] And were they really after Charles?

[249] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[250] This season, murder hits close to home.

[251] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[252] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[253] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[254] Who knows what'll happen once the cameras start to roll?

[255] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[256] Only Martyrs in the building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[257] Goodbye.

[258] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[259] Absolutely.

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[277] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[278] Goodbye.

[279] name, his Twitter handle, is Mani Patinkin?

[280] Oh my God, Mani Patinkin.

[281] Mani 2189, Texas.

[282] Added us to say on Twitter said, so you guys talked about the staircase death a lot in the start of your podcast days, but you guys never fully got into it and I still have no idea what it is and owl question mark.

[283] Someone sent us that today.

[284] Really?

[285] Yes.

[286] That's hilarious.

[287] How weird is that?

[288] because on our first episode, and Stephen went back and listened to it, wrote up some nice notes for us.

[289] It's called due diligence.

[290] That's right.

[291] And he did it.

[292] He did his diligence.

[293] He did his duty.

[294] So we didn't have to do no duty.

[295] Exactly.

[296] But we talked about the staircase.

[297] We both believed, I think for a while we believed we had covered it, but it was just conversation, a long conversation.

[298] And then the fun reveal that you told me was that then, when we decided, okay, for the 100th episode, we're going to cover the staircase together officially.

[299] I just realized I'm like trying to surprise everyone by telling them that we're in the staircase, but then I just realized they saw it in the description of the podcast episode when they press play, probably.

[300] Yeah.

[301] So it's not a surprise.

[302] It's not.

[303] And, you know, at some point you've got to reveal the surprise.

[304] What if Stephen, you put in the description surprise 100th episode case?

[305] Yeah, yeah, I can do that.

[306] Okay.

[307] Oh, my God.

[308] They're going to fucking shit.

[309] Guys, surprise.

[310] Holy shit.

[311] But there is a surprise because then what was your, what was you?

[312] Your reveal.

[313] Okay, so yesterday, like, not yesterday, last week, this is how fucking, this is how professional this podcast is.

[314] As Karen Steven are walking out of my door after we recorded and we're trying to guess like what, what, we were going to, we want to cover a story together, blah, blah, blah.

[315] And as we're walking out the door, are you walking out the door?

[316] I'm like, one of us is like staircase.

[317] Great.

[318] I think there's you.

[319] Okay.

[320] And so credit.

[321] Thank you, but I don't want to.

[322] I don't need it.

[323] I turn on the staircase to watch it and realize I have just been bullshining it this past couple years when people are like, have you seen the staircase?

[324] And I'm like, yeah, because I don't want to be like, no. Of course.

[325] You know.

[326] A hundred percent.

[327] A hundred percent.

[328] And I kind of convinced myself that I had seen it.

[329] But as we're watching episode one, I was like, oh my God, I've never fucking seen this.

[330] I've watched the forensic files about it, and I've read a ton about it, but I've never fucking watched the actual documentary.

[331] It's so funny.

[332] Basically, the entire relationship and our story, our origin story, is predicated on the fact that we both talked.

[333] endlessly about the staircase at that at Matt's Halloween party yeah and all of that's a lie that's like a miss but I still knew about it no of course but I didn't know I didn't know you know after watching most of it I didn't know what I was talking about God bless you just goes to show what a fucking glass of whiskey will do but you did in that way where this is this is one of the stories that's been around for so long, and we've talked about that, where the first couple true crime, like, you know, 48 hours types of shows that I saw about it, presented it in a very clear -cut way.

[334] Yeah, I went back and watched The Forensic Files, which we'll talk about once we get through it, but it's definitely, this is the story, and then shit just keeps throughout the years getting added on to it.

[335] Yes.

[336] And it's really crazy, and I do have to say watching the documentary gave me a completely completely different.

[337] So guys, go watch the staircase.

[338] It's like a 10 -part documentary.

[339] Yeah, 45 minutes each or something like that.

[340] This is what I love about this case is it's all opinion.

[341] I mean, there's just so many potential.

[342] This is, I feel like this is the part of true crime where people started to go, oh, yeah, the justicism, and I should say this, white people or like not people of color started to go.

[343] Oh, the justice system could get swayed one way or the other, on what the people in charge think of who they're trying right and that i don't think anyone really really looked at that much before this case where it's like now look at it this way and then you're like oh my god they hated him because of this and that i mean this is the original jinks this is the original making a murderer like if you have feelings about that you know you need to watch this i think this was way before it's you know time and i think this also two years before right God, it seems so vintage, doesn't it?

[344] Well, the, like, the American Justice I watched today was super vintage.

[345] Well, I watched the forensic.

[346] Okay, let's talk about the fucking case.

[347] All right.

[348] Let's get into this.

[349] Are we getting into it?

[350] So this is, this is the death of Kathleen Peterson, period.

[351] The episode of the American Justice that I watched starring Bill Curtis from 2004 was called Blood on the Staircase.

[352] Okay.

[353] Well, the forensic.

[354] Files is called a novel idea because he was a writer because he was a novelist.

[355] It's a novel idea to kill your wife.

[356] Yeah.

[357] I'm like oh man. Yeah.

[358] Love it.

[359] Blood on the staircase.

[360] Okay.

[361] Sorry, I can I just say?

[362] Yeah.

[363] Oh wait, are we going to cut that entirely because Georgia got up to get something and as she walked over to the stairs started walking down and goes, oh my God, what if I fall down these stairs?

[364] That'd be great.

[365] And I just died.

[366] Are you falling down the stairs?

[367] So clean.

[368] 100th episode.

[369] About a staircase fall.

[370] About a staircase fall.

[371] You can't see anything.

[372] So Stephen and I can actually say anything we want happened.

[373] Yeah.

[374] And as long as we're on the same page.

[375] And the recording would be played in court over and over again.

[376] Because as I yell, I go, no, Karen and Stephen.

[377] That's what I yell for no reason.

[378] And then I'll be like, Your Honor, you can clearly hear Stephen stroking his mustache.

[379] You know he's sitting down.

[380] Yeah.

[381] You can hear me eating cake and drooling about fucking cake.

[382] Well, where was the cake place at the time?

[383] Was it on the staircase?

[384] It was into my mouth?

[385] Okay.

[386] The whole time.

[387] Should we just read them at the same time?

[388] Sure.

[389] And then I was thinking, you mean two people talk at the same time?

[390] We just, okay, ready.

[391] On December, go ahead.

[392] 19.

[393] Ninth, 72.

[394] Also, I think at the beginning of this, we should say what we think, like, what we think the truth is.

[395] Okay.

[396] Okay.

[397] I think we should say that till the end.

[398] Well, I'm going to convince you as my truth.

[399] Okay.

[400] What about you?

[401] Well, I was just going to, I mean, maybe we just talk through it as we go.

[402] And we'll just say.

[403] If we're yelling at each other, then we have different opinions.

[404] Yes.

[405] If we're like building each other up.

[406] If love can build a bridge.

[407] Then we both think he's guilty.

[408] I definitely think he's guilty.

[409] Oh, good.

[410] Me too.

[411] Yeah.

[412] 100%.

[413] Well, you know what's funny is before I watched the duck, the staircase, I thought I was like, well, the owl theory makes so much sense, which we'll get to you guys.

[414] Yes.

[415] But now that I'm like, oh, no, you're so sweet baby angel.

[416] You think that fucking UFOs exist and an owl.

[417] Well, they do.

[418] Now we know they know they do.

[419] Alien unidentified alien alloys have been discovered.

[420] Aliens exist.

[421] I've known that.

[422] anyone that watches ancient aliens knows it and has known it for quite some time sidebar.

[423] A Siamese cat knows that they're fucking aliens.

[424] That aliens live here.

[425] They were here first.

[426] It's their planet.

[427] We're visiting it.

[428] Wait.

[429] No, but I was going to say that I think that the reason that documentary is so amazing and effective is because you never see or you rarely see the murderer.

[430] family featured the way this family's featured.

[431] So you go through it with the family and you want what the family wants because there's so much pain and horror going on and the layers keep unpealing where you're like, oh, no. So then you start to understand why people do the things they did.

[432] I had, it was so, watching it was so problematic for me because it kind of, it made me, what's so funny about the, the documentary is clearly made from a standpoint.

[433] that he is innocent, which is so ironic that it made me 100 % sure that he's guilty.

[434] So there's something fucking off there.

[435] And what is off is Michael Peterson's personality.

[436] Hell yes.

[437] And how fucking creepy and narcissistic and wrong he is.

[438] And I swear to God, the two adoptive daughters, they're in a fucking cult.

[439] Don't call your dad.

[440] Right.

[441] Because he's...

[442] Because you got to get off the phone with your dad.

[443] Those two girls, man. It's very sad, but it's, but I think, well, I think that documentary wasn't necessarily on his side.

[444] I think they were doing the, we're just verite, we're here to record what's happening and what happens.

[445] But they left out so much evidence that that's, I just don't think that's possible.

[446] Oh, okay.

[447] Well, but I think it in, in pretending that it's guiding you this way, opens the door to let you go that way.

[448] You know what I mean?

[449] It's that thing of like, you can come all the way into the house because we know he's innocent.

[450] And then you're like, yeah, I smell a rat, which none of that would have happened if they hadn't done it that way.

[451] It's like, it's the case of fucking this guy who thinks that he seems very empathetic and that and seems deep and interesting when really everyone is so on to him.

[452] Can I read what he's what he can I just, can we start by me saying, uh, when he got out, when he got out on bail of prison, the first thing he said, Are you ready for you ready for this to say that?

[453] Oh, do you have it on record?

[454] Go ahead and then we'll see if it's the same thing.

[455] Kathleen was my life.

[456] I whisper her name in my heart a thousand times.

[457] She is there, but I can't stop crying.

[458] Kathleen was my life.

[459] I whispered her name in my heart a thousand times.

[460] She is there, but I can't stop crying.

[461] It's just like, we're...

[462] I would never have done anything to hurt her.

[463] that's okay I am innocent of these charges real loud and we will prove it important well if we're gonna I have such to talk about those last two lines too oh my god let's get into this this is gonna be fun because those last two lines oh god I have the fucking okay but really quick so you and I just picked out the exact same moment where because that was also in that episode by the way everyone he's in an asphalt parking lot when he says that with with news cameras in front of him and he is doing the worst acting it's like of sorrow it's it's it's it's it's foe somber and then like I'm a really good writer so here's you can see him practicing this in the mirror it is the fakes fucking thing you've ever seen and it is such a presentation yeah it's so much artifice and the background is his poor daughter okay here we yes but I was going to say it's starting from the 911 call which is also insanely fake okay well here's what I told Stephen and let me know you're up for this you know what we might need to start doing things at the same one at the same episode 101 100 through fucking 199 is us together but not knowing either yeah we don't know what the case is either that or this is because we both want to say something the most irritating episode we've ever done this could be the biggest cluster fuck which is why like some people who don't know what this case is are like can you just tell me what happened first if you don't know what the cases you know what you know what you know what you can't afford it please don't hang up the phone hang up the phone all right okay On December 9th, 2001, the student named Michael Peterson, you heard his voice, he's a creep, called 911 to report that he had just found his wife of 14 years, 48 -year -old Kathleen, unconscious, and he said he thought that she fell down the stairs of their Forest Hills home in Durham, North Carolina.

[464] Michael said that he had been outside by the pool and had come in at 2 .40 a .m. to find Kathleen at the foot of their stairs.

[465] He maintained that she must have fallen down the stairs out because they had been drinking and she had taken Valium all night.

[466] interject at any fucking moment.

[467] Oh, I was just going to say Valium is kind of a one -off thing in my experience.

[468] It's not like you party with it all night long.

[469] Right.

[470] You take the one, you're going to go to bed.

[471] Good night.

[472] Yeah.

[473] The end of story.

[474] Yeah.

[475] Okay.

[476] But when police arrived, the amount of blood on the walls made them suspicious.

[477] So toxicology reports show that Kathleen had an alcohol content of 0 .07%.

[478] How many, Karen, I want to ask you something right now.

[479] I was thinking it would be fun.

[480] We got a breathalyzer and made Stephen and get that drunk and see how drunk that is.

[481] It's not that drunk.

[482] And then maybe that's like four healthy glasses of wine.

[483] Yeah.

[484] Because 0 .08 is legally...

[485] Right.

[486] That's not illegal in North Carolina.

[487] But see, my point is it's not that high.

[488] Like, you can get arrested for buzz driving because 0 .08 is not sloppy, drunk crazy.

[489] Yeah.

[490] Point 0 .8 is you shouldn't drive at that point.

[491] You have impaired yourself, but you're not, you know, blind drunk.

[492] So, you know, so devil's advocate, it's not impossible that that at that point you'd fall down the flight of stairs if you were running up them 100 % yeah but sorry she's running upstairs yeah and she's falling backwards not not from the top of the stairs but almost from the bottom of the stairs well let's get to that okay two so michael claimed that he had been outside by the pool with kathleen they had been talking because they're madly in love with each other according to him until she went in around midnight and that he had come home, come back in around 45 minutes later at two, four, I don't know, the timeline's weird, uh, to find her at the foot of the stairs.

[493] So, but here's the thing.

[494] It was fucking December and he's saying he's sitting by the pool finishing his drink and shit.

[495] Yeah.

[496] And shorts and a t -shirt.

[497] It's 50 to 55 degrees outside.

[498] You know how you do.

[499] Right.

[500] Which is like, yeah, your couch and your warm house is whatever, 40 feet away.

[501] Yeah.

[502] But you're just going to go sit by the unless they were fighting for 45 minutes there was but it's also a fucking palatial mansion so there's 800 rooms for you to go into yes but i mean like if they got into a spat at the pool yeah and she stormed in a if she fell so badly that she was killed yeah you would hear that and you would hope that you would the clunk even if you didn't know for sure you'd be like maybe i should go check even if i'm mad i should go check he doesn't do that right for an hour almost um yes okay do da da da da da okay and the other thing is too so he calls 911 and before the ambulance gets there between that time his son todd from a previous marriage who's like in his 20 is is already there what's he doing there okay oh he lived at the house though no we didn't oh I thought he did I don't think he did he didn't live there he was out of the house at a party this is this was a movie American justice that I watched he was down the street at a party okay and then came home So the autopsy report concluded that Kathleen sustained severe injuries, including a fracture of the thyroid neck cartilage, which isn't the hyoid bone.

[503] I always talk about, but something similar.

[504] And seven lacerations at the top and back of her head, consistent with blows from a blunt object caused by homicidal assault, and had died from blood loss 90 minutes to two hours after sustaining her injuries.

[505] So here's what I was thinking.

[506] Since we both think he's guilty and it's all bullshit.

[507] Should we listen to the 911 call?

[508] No. Come on.

[509] Okay, you can play it.

[510] You can play it.

[511] But it's...

[512] We can say it, too.

[513] It's...

[514] Normally 911 calls upset me because it's a real moment of the worst.

[515] It, like, makes my adrenaline go.

[516] Yeah.

[517] Like, but this instead fills me with absolute disgust because it's insanely fake.

[518] That's why I want to listen to it.

[519] Because it's like...

[520] Do you have it?

[521] I told Stephen to have it ready.

[522] It's just so unbelievable to me. Durham 911, where's your emergency?

[523] 1810 feet of street, please.

[524] What's wrong?

[525] My wife's trying to accident.

[526] She's still breathing.

[527] What kind of accident?

[528] She's still breathing, please come on.

[529] Is she conscious?

[530] What?

[531] Is she conscious?

[532] No, she's not conscious.

[533] Okay.

[534] How many stairs did you call down?

[535] Huh?

[536] How many stairs?

[537] 1520?

[538] I don't know.

[539] Please.

[540] Get somebody here right away.

[541] Please.

[542] Somebody's dispatching the ambulance while I ask you questions.

[543] It's off of, it's a force shield.

[544] Okay.

[545] he is the fakery is he wants to get off that phone yeah he he is playing a part and he can't sustain it he's delivering his part and that's all he can do and he it's that thing in like acting where it's like if you scream really loud then you've are there's nowhere else to go so he did he didn't start trying to be calm which is i think what people normally do or if they're having a reaction they they listen because they need help so they want to listen to what the person who can give them help doing and saying and because the person on the other line is going to tell them how to potentially save this person's life so you need to calm down and listen to the that's what they're trained to do yeah but he's not doing any of those things because he just wants the big show of how upset he is right and he wants to deliver his information a that she's still alive to to lie about the timeline and that she fell downstairs the fact that he doesn't mention and if you see the photos it's an insane amount of blood and the fact that he doesn't yell there's so much blood oh my you know like most people if they see that amount but a blood would freak the fuck out yes uh no the blood part when you like in the when the one that i was watching the second the camera goes in and they have like the police camera of walking in the amount of blood that's there is so ridiculous for a stairfall for a slip and fall downstairs yeah which is not if you think about like when you fall down you skin your knee if you hit your head you'd have a little bit of blood they bruised there is blood everywhere at the bottom of the staircase pooling pre and then smeared and then splatted over it like it's nuts and the other thing that this so this person ursla franco who's a criminologist she has a really great uh website um mal k e crime notes she she does the thing i love which she breaks down the wording and in a lot of his speeches and things he says and one of them is that when he when she says how many stairs that's a question he did not expect to hear and it takes him 15 to 20 five seconds from the beginning of the call to answer that because he wasn't near the body when he was asked that question.

[546] So the thing is, and she says, most people, when someone is hurt, are next to the body because they're ready to help and they want direction on how to help.

[547] But he was in another room away from the mess.

[548] And so he stalls by saying, oh, um, stairs.

[549] And it's only because he has to run over and see how many stairs there are.

[550] And they said when they did the luminal test, they showed barefoot tracks away from the area and going into different parts of the house so he was in the blood he was standing over her body and then left which is like if you if your loved one the person that you love the most in the world was laying in a pile of blood where are you going yeah like what that's doesn't it doesn't really track no seemingly yes well we're always right so um um blah blah blah da da da da So also there's a bloody shoe print.

[551] So Kathleen is found in this prone position on her back at the bottom of the staircase, like laying up the first couple stairs, right?

[552] So she's on her back.

[553] Yeah.

[554] But on the back of her sweatpants is a shoe print that matches the shoes that Michael was wearing that night.

[555] But when the ambulance arrives and the EMT arrives, he's not wearing shoes.

[556] For some reason, he's fucking barefoot, and his socks and shoes are off and, like, near her body.

[557] Why is that?

[558] Because you didn't want to track it, probably, right?

[559] So how would her, how would his shoe print end up there?

[560] You mean, like, when he kicks her down the stairs or kicks her from behind or something?

[561] Yeah.

[562] Well, also that when they get into, and I mean, we're not going to be able to do this chronologically.

[563] I don't, like, it's, it's Brexit for the discussion.

[564] But, like, in the case, when they talk about the, when the defense is talking about, what possibly could have happened to make that much blood that is not an not an attack and that many and that many wounds on her head because it's seven wounds so it's not like she fell down the stairs and maybe would have sustained two head injuries let's let's be generous because we also know she didn't fall from the top of the stairs yeah she fell from five or six stairs up yeah so to get seven head injuries how did they explain it it's fucking hilarious she falls she hits her head she gets up spits blood like they're trying to rationalize how blood is everywhere she slips and falls back down which is explaining the fact that she had blood on the bottoms of her bare feet even though if she had so if she had fallen and become unconscious she wouldn't have blood on the bottoms of her feet right so she did how like they have to explain that too right so that's then they say that she does that multiple times tries to get up falls and hits her head hard enough to lacerate her fucking skull So meanwhile, her loving, loving husband is sitting out by the pool.

[565] She is slipping and falling in her own blood and dying, and he doesn't hear it and doesn't come inside for 45 minutes.

[566] From a 0 .07 wine intake and a Valium.

[567] I just keep thinking of the time I fell down on the street in front of the movie theater, my legendary story, where I skin my knee knee, when you fall down, even like, say, eight stairs, you break a hip, you break your kneecap.

[568] You, I don't think anyone ever does that, but I'm saying, which case scenario.

[569] Yes, you sprain your ankle.

[570] You get a concussion on your head.

[571] If you did cut your head, you have a little bit of blood.

[572] The idea that there's a pool of blood, blood splattered on every wall, smeared all around.

[573] And to be fair, we all know, the head, the scalp bleeds profusely.

[574] Yeah.

[575] Fair enough.

[576] But why would seven lacerations be present if, you know, it's.

[577] And all in the same spot.

[578] it's not like all like she's falling down and hit her tempo hit the back of her head it's all on the back and lower part of her head as if she was running up the stairs away from someone yeah and they hit her with something who clocked her like repeatedly beat her down yeah essentially um what i think is interesting is that there's a spot of blood on the wall as if the first attack had happened someone tried to clean up the blood and then she wasn't dead and there's blood there's blood spray over the spot where someone was trying to clean the blood off the wall yes as so that means either I think it's either that she became conscious again and wasn't dead and he beat her again or he tried to clean it realized it wasn't going to work and so tried to cover up that clean spot with more blood just kind of sprayed it on there Jesus do you know what I mean yes that's dark I mean like the idea that then he's just he's just like this is associated like but you can tell the difference between the blood that was already there and the blood that wasn't that came later yeah yeah I mean there's so many things in this case that make it so he'll never so people can question this forever and one of them is the fucking blood spatter analyst I mean who Dwayne Dwayne might this about Dwayne he's truly my favorite part of that documentary because he looks like he was cast by the Cohen brothers there he is the goofiest looking motherfucker and the way he talks about the blood spatter the way he gets excited like he's the expert here or whatever and then of course come to find out later on after this case after he's tried after he's convicted this blood spatter guy it turns out wait i have the the details here from stephen's timeline and also from uh i wrote dirty dwayne deaver Dirty Dwayne.

[579] A government ordered inquest found the agents of the FBI, including Dwayne Dever, repeatedly aided prosecutors and obtaining convictions over a 16 -year period by misrepresenting blood evidence and keeping critical notes from the attorneys.

[580] That was 34 cases where he falsely represented evidence.

[581] So essentially, Michael Peterson gets found guilty.

[582] He spends eight years in prison and then fucking Dirty Dwayne comes out.

[583] that he's a lying liar who lies.

[584] And all this shit comes out.

[585] And so even if his fucking, even if his blood's batter analysis in this case was totally correct, it doesn't fucking matter, which some of it is and some of it I understand isn't.

[586] Well, it's a lot of it is just him riffing.

[587] So it's like him at home going, well, if you do this, then this.

[588] And if we hear, I'm going to do this with this.

[589] Yeah.

[590] He's doing a lot of like, I, I approximated it.

[591] So now this is scientific evidence.

[592] Like he does it enough times until it fits the story he wants.

[593] wants to tell.

[594] Right.

[595] Which is so problematic.

[596] Yeah.

[597] Yeah.

[598] And crazy.

[599] And the idea that, um, that amount, what was I going to say?

[600] It was the amount of blood and the, yeah, just to me, it's open and shut in that part where it's like, if you're saying she fell backwards down the stairs a couple times, it still does not, it just doesn't explain that amount of blood.

[601] Right.

[602] It doesn't.

[603] Right.

[604] Well, he, So Michael Peterson also had blood on the inside crotch of his shorts.

[605] So that, you know, the Dirty Dwayne's argument was that could only happen if he was standing over her beating her, blood spatter, which is probably fucking true.

[606] Yes.

[607] But.

[608] But then, I guess, scientifically you can say, but you could sit here and go, or if he, he flicked his shoe up and there's some, like, you can't attest for what happens to liquid in a certain scenario the thing i think is super fake i mean like it sucks because that guy himself being a fraud made everything a fraud where it's still it's the amount of blood it whatever direction it's spattered in or whatever yeah this is not a i fell down the stairs and hit my head a couple times reasonably yeah this is like a murder scene there's but there's like four thing we'll get to all of them but there's four things that make you go this isn't this isn't an open and shutcase and one of them is dirty Dwayne and we'll get to the other ones well and the daughter I never saw this in the staircase but the daughter Caitlin who was Kathleen's daughter from her first marriage she said that when they first when Kathleen and Michael first got married and she moved into the house with the family she saw him with like a hair trigger temper and rage issues several times I've never heard that in this episode of American justice they have her speaking and she She's not in, as far as I remember, she's not in the staircase.

[609] She's not because she was, every, his two biological sons, his two adopted daughters, and Caitlin, who was Kathleen's daughter, were all on his side.

[610] And then Caitlin saw the autopsy report.

[611] And changed her mind.

[612] But she ended up suing him, too.

[613] Yeah.

[614] And winning.

[615] And winning for wrongful death.

[616] okay sorry because he did it because it's like he did it just from the get go but okay um let's talk about the fucking problems that pop up and they pop up it's so interesting on the staircase because they pop up during the recording do you want to get into those sure the gay porn thing I love that guy he's my favorite part in the staircase oh my god what did he what was his argument on the stand what did he say verbatim I knew dittily.

[617] Oh, I don't know.

[618] I mean, I think he had a lot of good quotes.

[619] Let's get into it.

[620] Okay, so what I wrote about was that, like, there were, uh, there were two motives.

[621] And one was that Kathleen had a $1 .5 million life insurance policy.

[622] Why?

[623] Uh -huh.

[624] Well, because she, she was very fucking wealthy, had a good job.

[625] But, so around two million with all of her assets.

[626] at the time of her death, and that the Peterson's at the time we're facing financial issues.

[627] They had $143 ,000 in debt at the time of Kathleen's death.

[628] Kathleen's company was undergoing major layoffs.

[629] Kathleen was in danger of losing her $145 ,000 a year job and her benefits.

[630] And she had deferred a lot of her salary, so they didn't have a lot of cash, which is why they were in so much debt.

[631] And Michael hadn't had income for a lot of years.

[632] So, so, and also, I think secretly, the sons were in a lot of debt as well, because there was an email to Michael Peterson's ex -wife talking about how they were going to deal with their son's debt.

[633] And in the email, it said, Michael says, I cannot speak to Kathleen about this.

[634] Oh, because it's like, because the money was such a huge issue.

[635] Because who knows why, yeah, because money was an issue, because she was sick of, you know, this is speculation, because she was sick of, you know, this is speculation, because she was sick of.

[636] helping them because, you know, they weren't her biological sons for whatever reason.

[637] You know, they'd gotten in illegal trouble in the past, which is true.

[638] So, so there was some secretive stuff going on about money.

[639] So there's money, which I don't think is, I think this is a crime of passion.

[640] I don't think the money.

[641] No, I don't think the money and I don't think the gay porn, which in the American justice, they're like, Kathleen was on his hour, on his computer two hours.

[642] before her death.

[643] And the theory is that she stumbled upon.

[644] I don't think it's the gay porn.

[645] I think it's the fact that he was trying to hire a sex, a gay sex worker to have sex with.

[646] And she stumbled upon that information.

[647] You don't think it's that?

[648] No. What do you think the motive is?

[649] I don't know.

[650] But I mean, you could, her going on his computer doesn't mean she found anything.

[651] Yeah, but, okay, except that she never went on that.

[652] computer the only reason she was doing it is because that more the next morning she had a a conference call and so she didn't have her home her work laptop at home with her so one of her colleagues sent her some information that she needed to get off the home computer so she checked it before midnight which she never did she had to ask Michael Peterson for the password to get into the their like joint email account so she was never on that computer and he had printouts of a conversation he had with a mail escort about the kind of sex that they were going to have and like when he could come over I read all those e -mails between the two of them it's fucking intense well but is there proof that she read that well I mean no but if she opened the drawer one drawer to get a pen or whatever and found this or you know clicked on one email in their email chain and saw it I mean it's so easy when she's on that PC to find any evidence of this gave this you know his bisexuality his hiring escorts his affairs with men that he had had in their relationship it's so easy if she had not stumbled upon that and then died that night i mean it's just it there's there's too much of a link between those two things to me well i just think if he'd been doing that secretly for a long time he wouldn't have them printed up and sitting in a drawer like he probably gotten away with it for so long with he was he thought well it's not that i mean it's like what they were together for eight years or like they were going to 10 years before they got married well so i guess my point is this i i don't i don't buy the idea that all the sudden she's clicking things and it's like that's it and also because he that's her being enraged at him i think something happened where he like she was like she's like i'm going to what the fuck is this i'm going to expose you get the fuck out of my house you're not he has no money he hasn't had a job in three years she's like but that's like so you're saying that the marriage was like eroding anyway and then this was her like left final straw no i think her finding emails that he is literally planning for that week a meet up with a gay escort to and in the emails brim job he's a top like this is how big as dick is he's he's had sex in the past with these men he's done like the emails are insane and a conversation of not someone who is new at this right so she finds those emails and and realizes and comes downstairs and confronts him what the fuck is this this isn't like this is not who i married uh i'm losing my fucking mind you know has the emails in her hand goes to walk upstairs he fucking panics his whole life is about to be exposed so do we know for a fact those emails we're printed up yeah that's that's a that's evidence that they had yeah not that they the lawyers printed them but michael peterson printed the email according to forensic files yes they were printed in his in the drawer in his office okay well just to i guess my point is that's all very that just seems like if he had a secret gay life that would be something i just didn't see that relationship and the and the way i guess it was presented i was thinking more of she did some said something him um that was more of like her attacking him so why couldn't it be you're fucking gay it can what is this shit i'm telling i'm just telling you that it seems really it's convenient because it's the one night she uses the computer the one time and then she finds everything like he's not hiding it at all a and then b the lawyers use that in the courtroom um as this huge thing of like oh my god he's not who anybody and it was to me that was one of those moments in the documentary that was so amazing because then you watched all of those people in Durham be like, this is disgusting, this is horrifying.

[653] Oh my God, this is insane.

[654] Where it's like, actually, there's tons of people to do it all the time.

[655] See, but I think, which is why I loved that fucking sex worker because he got up there and just like, yeah, this is what, it happens a lot.

[656] It's not a big deal.

[657] What I don't think, I don't think that the people in Durham and in the, in the documentary, Michael Peterson talks a lot of shit about closed -mindedness here in North Carolina, blah, blah, blah.

[658] But I don't think they were upset with him being bisexual or having homosexual or sexual relationships.

[659] I think that they were pointing out what a liar Michael Peterson was.

[660] And Michael Peterson was saying that Kathleen knew about his infidelities with men, was open to him being bisexual and experiencing that outside of his relationship with her.

[661] But I think the argument was he's a known liar.

[662] He lied about getting the purple heart in Vietnam.

[663] He lied that his injury, he had gotten some injuries in a car accident in Japan years before and said that he had gotten them in Vietnam, his ex -wife, and he divorced because he was having affairs with men and women.

[664] So they were showing him as a known liar.

[665] And saying that she knew about the gay relationships takes away the motive that he would have killed her because she found out about it that night and he flipped the fuck out.

[666] Well, I mean, look, it's not like I'm saying that isn't true.

[667] Or I'm not arguing that.

[668] I'm just saying to me, that seems like it pulls through the thing.

[669] Because in the documentary, they do, in the courtroom, people.

[670] act like holy fuck it's on camera it's like one of the biggest parts of that documentary i mean so that no that's just my point of people in durham were freaked out about it people in durham were it it did become the way that that woman free to brown the prosecutor starts talking about him and this yeah and she's so evil about it it's like she's like the wicked witch of the west so that to me i felt like that was a card that they played to cast him in this light in the courtroom to make him look bad and then when you watch the documentary you're like well those people are bad and that makes him good and so you start playing against you know what I mean it's like yeah they're bad and he's good but maybe but I think maybe the card was he's I think they were surprised to hear that a married straight buried man was having these illicit relationships with men I don't think it was that he's having relationships with men this man's having relationship with men I think it was definitely do.

[671] I mean, I'm not so fucking stupid that I think that, you know, people don't get surprised when they find out someone's gay, obviously.

[672] But I think part of it was, did Catholic, I mean, it's such a, it's such a great narrative of, she found out this thing about him that he, you know, even if she knew he looked at gay porn, found out that he is, uh, he's planning on meeting up with and paying for sex from a, a gay escort.

[673] She found out that night That's the night she died Like the fact that she was on the computer that night Even though she's never on the computer And that's the night she slipped and fell But we don't know for a fact That's the night she found out We just know that he had printed up emails And that he erased that Like that the cops found out He was erasing stuff off his computer And then they went in and were like Your computer's filled with gay porn And you're having these affairs But she went on But she went on the computer for the first time In a long time that night That she died Yes I guess that's a crazy coincidence it's not though i mean i just don't think it's not a crazy coincidence it's not a coincidence it's like that's the motive that she found out that he was paying for sex from a gay guy but i get it my thing is i think it's too much of a coincidence to say all of those things happened because she was like oh i got to check my email here i i in my mind that's that's a thing that got pulled through so that it would be like yeah you know salacious so it would be against him and and then you know and then when the documentary comes and everyone in like 2015 or whenever it was looks at that they're like well fuck those southern bigots yeah and then and that makes him look good somehow but I guess my point was I think something else happened uh that would like when he talks and he is so remote and calm and oh he's just so affable and so intelligent and so you see that thing where it's like but the one thing that would turn him and I don't I'm not saying I know what it is I'm just saying it's a thing that makes him snap go into a rage and then beat her till the whole fucking stairwell is bloody so like it's not it's not like hey you and you did this and you did that or her like being shrill and up maybe he's never been abusive before he no he has been oh he has he yes but the well then we get into okay right then we get into the family friend the woman in germany who they find out okay yes so the other weird bombshell that came out during the it was during the staircase being filmed well it's during the case but i mean it's because her Kathleen's uh uh is it Kathleen's sister or his first wife's sister calls and says you do realize right oh no sorry it's the girl's mother's sister so it's the girl's aunts that that Michael Peterson is there his words and the aunt calls and says you do realize their mother was like died at the bottom of a staircase after he walked them home and he was the last person to see her alive yeah he walked the mother and girls home after they ate dinner at the Peterson's house and then a neighbor saw him running out of the house later on and she was found at the bottom of the stairs with seven lacerations on her head on the back of her head exactly the same fucking death 20 years before that's insanity it it here let's see uh da da da da okay so yeah so so two decades before michael peterson found kathleen at the bottom of her stairs he had been friends with another woman named elizabeth ratliff and they had all lived in germany uh michael peterson was married to his first the time had his two sons.

[674] Elizabeth apparently died after a fall down a staircase and Michael had been the last person's year alive.

[675] They ruled authorities ruled Ratliff's death to be of natural causes concluding that a cerebral hemorrhage caused her to fall and strike her head.

[676] Which makes absolutely no sense.

[677] Right.

[678] So they're saying something, basically she was at the top of the stairs went, oh my God, my head and fell down the stairs, got seven lacerations.

[679] It's the same thing.

[680] That one time you want, You get what happened.

[681] You get why they concluded that.

[682] You know what I mean?

[683] It's almost like, yeah, okay.

[684] That could have happened.

[685] Fell down the stairs.

[686] Right.

[687] Not looking into it.

[688] She had headaches before, like, supposedly it had headaches before weeks before that happened.

[689] So she also looks so fucking identical.

[690] Elizabeth Ratcliffe and Kathleen look like they could be fucking sisters in the most insane way.

[691] Yes.

[692] There's a part where there's side by sides of.

[693] Elizabeth in the like 70s probably and Kathleen and you could completely go oh that's her in the 70s and that's her now yeah totally they look so similar totally it's insane and it's this thing of like you know did he kill the first woman did he kill Elizabeth or did Elizabeth just die that way and so when he killed Kathleen 20 years later he set up her body to look the way Elizabeth you know like maybe he didn't kill Elizabeth the first one maybe she actually died that way and he and he in this moment of like well I need to set the body to look like it was an accident kind of recreated the same scene but that would mean he was at the scene right right because he probably no he found her body he came he came when the nanny found Elizabeth Rackless body she went and got Michael Peterson oh so he saw it yeah okay but i also don't believe that i think he killed no i mean well also because it doesn't explain the seven lacerations it doesn't explain it's like um in the what was that fucking uh jessica beale show oh yeah uh the center remember when she stabs them the exact same way it's that's what it reminds me of where it's like seven seven head lacerations where it's like if it's a blow poke or if it's whatever the thing is it's like someone goes fuck you walks away from him goes upstairs or however it happens and he just walks up and goes no no no no and like that's his muscle memory that's what he does to stop someone and it's a rageaholic explosion where it's like this crazy attack and it happens the same way and then i mean who knows this is all obviously bullshit theory but but we're right but but to me he does really seem like one of those people that's like he's gonna keep it so chill no matter what because he does it all the way through the it's so crazy Him talking to camera in the staircase is, like, one of the most infuriating things to me. This is why part of the reason why I didn't, I couldn't watch more than five episodes is I was just like, I do not want to see this man again and hear him speak.

[694] Like, it was one of those things where Vince had to be like, okay, Georgia, we need to go to bed because I was screaming at him about, not screaming, but I was like, oh, you know, just yelling at him because he's such a fucking narcissistic creep.

[695] And he's a little bit of a like Mr. Magoo where he's like, oh, I don't really know.

[696] he's making jokes he's like his brother's there and they're all just kind of oh wow that's very interesting and it's there's no shame there doesn't seem to be any real affect so he's not like you don't see him he the only time he ever seems like worried or to have real human reactions is when they're talking about how much jail time he's looking at other than that it's like oh kathleen she was really something he also doesn't he answers things in a way incorrectly like Like, so I printed out this thing from the Malky crime notes where, um, so, blah, blah, okay, so at the, at the end of that, I whisper her name bullshit when he says, uh, I would never have done anything to hurt her.

[697] He, the way he says that, it's an unrel, so she's, this chick, Ursula Franco says, it's an unreliable denial saying, I would have never done anything to hurt her.

[698] And then you can add in unless, blah, blah, blah.

[699] Unless she sasked me on the stairs.

[700] done something wrong.

[701] I would have never done anything to hurt her to begin with.

[702] Right.

[703] And then he also says hurt instead of kill to minimize and distance himself from what happened to deal with the negative emotions.

[704] And she says it's a common strategy used by guilty people to deal with feelings of guilt.

[705] And then he says, I am innocent of these charges.

[706] That doesn't mean he didn't kill her.

[707] He's innocent of the charges he's being brought up on.

[708] Right.

[709] Right.

[710] So it's another not reliable denial to affirm to be innocent is different from saying, I didn't kill, which is expected.

[711] When people say they are innocent, they're just denying the conclusion that they are guilty.

[712] And just when they say, and when they say, I didn't do it, they are denying the action.

[713] So he's saying he's not guilty of the charges, leaving out what the charges are, again, not telling you.

[714] I'm innocent of killing my wife.

[715] And it's that, it's the super egotomaniacal thing of, I am innocent.

[716] This is about me and I'm being persecuted and it's so sad for me. I didn't kill my wife.

[717] I would never hurt Kathleen.

[718] Yes.

[719] Nothing like that.

[720] I will, I would never hurt Kathleen conceptually.

[721] I mean, not really.

[722] Yeah.

[723] But yeah.

[724] It's so fucked up.

[725] Oh, and then he says, in the, oh, when he else says, I'm truly innocent of these charges, of course, when you say truly, it's like, why are you making a, why are you making a, like a qualifier, blah, blah, as opposed to regular innocent.

[726] Right.

[727] But then another quote he says is when I think of Kathleen, and he says it's in the staircase, when I think of Kathleen and I remember unfortunately, what I remember unfortunately is her dying in my arms.

[728] That's true.

[729] She died in my arms.

[730] Why did you have to say that?

[731] He's like goosing the sympathy for himself.

[732] And it's also like, we think she died hours before that.

[733] So him saying it's true, she died in my arms because the first time he called 911 when he said she was still alive and the second time he said she wasn't.

[734] But based on the neurons, which we need to talk about, the red blood neurons in her brain, she died hours before.

[735] Then he says, he says, he says something about how the last time that was, he says when she was walking to go back into the house after they have been sitting outside, that that was the last time he saw her alive.

[736] And then he goes, except for when I found her, like, he has to be like, oh, fuck, my story is that I found her alive at the bottom of the stairs, which he didn't.

[737] he forgot right he forgot that was the story right well the one thing i was going to say is they talk about um the it it really bugs me like i when i was watching the documentary the the prosecutorial team which he hired before there were charges against him and uh what another narcissistic creep yes that lawyer yeah what's his name uh i remember rudolph but um something but basically he tries to say There is no way that somebody could beat somebody else with a blowpoke in that staircase, like, or with any instrument that would have given her those seven deep lacerations in the back of her head at the bottom of that staircase.

[738] There's not enough room that you couldn't pull that thing up over your head over and over and beat some with that, which is a bullshit because you don't know.

[739] It's not the blow poke itself.

[740] So it's like predicating everything.

[741] on this one concept, which is like, we don't know if that's it.

[742] We also don't know if it's a blow, that's the murder weapon, is what I'm saying.

[743] Yeah.

[744] And also, or could he could just be holding it right up to the hills and not, it's not like he's got it at the very end.

[745] Or I read in another thing that maybe he just hit her head against the stairs.

[746] Sure.

[747] And that's, that's, and that would take a small hit to open the scalp up and not cause brain or skull fractures, which is one of the points that people made is if he would, beaten her there'd be skull fractures and there wasn't so if it was an up close hit there wouldn't be skull fractures maybe because she died by bleeding out she didn't die from a skull fracture right which normally I think most doctors would say if you fell down the stairs hit your head a bunch of times you still wouldn't bleed out right wouldn't bleed out that quickly and you'd have a concussion but the but the other thing is that then later on they try they attempt to get a retrial because the neighbor finds a tire iron and then they they say they they withheld this evidence that the prosecution withheld this evidence and so the defense was like we need a new trial because they withheld the possibility there could be a prowler that had a tire iron so all the sudden the same people are arguing the exact same the opposite of what they were saying which is like oh so a prowler could beat her with a tire iron but he couldn't beat her with a blow poke right that makes sense it doesn't it's so crazy also that the blow poke was missing and later in the in the documentary one of the other son finds the blow poke in the garage, which is weird, right?

[748] Well, and the police, who we all know, like, you know, it's, we're very biased in this, but the police in the American justice are like, we went all over that garage.

[749] The blow poke was not in the garage.

[750] And didn't they find the blow poke without the end, the tip?

[751] Yeah, I mean, and they all they did was they didn't find it, leave it where it was, call the cops, and everybody to go take pictures.

[752] They presented it in court to say, we found.

[753] found this.

[754] Yeah.

[755] And it was on video, right?

[756] Like, while they were recording the documentary.

[757] Yeah.

[758] Yeah.

[759] So then we're like, here it is.

[760] We found it.

[761] Here it is everybody.

[762] And then they're just like, well, yeah, you could have any, you could put that there.

[763] And then the camera was recording.

[764] Oh my God.

[765] This is so perfect.

[766] Yeah.

[767] Like it doesn't mean anything.

[768] But they were introducing, they were doing that tricky shit of introducing.

[769] Yeah.

[770] Ideas that are like, ooh, reasonable doubt.

[771] Yeah.

[772] Um, also.

[773] So there's all these injuries.

[774] to her head and neck contusions all over her arms and the back of her arms and she has zero injuries to her knees and legs, which you think falling down the stairs, you'd absolutely hit your fucking leg.

[775] 100%.

[776] So then the other thing, oh God, can we talk about Dr. Henry Lee at some point?

[777] Oh, my God.

[778] Oh, him spitting that ketchup.

[779] Oh, my God.

[780] It's so and also, you know, they hired him really early.

[781] Yeah.

[782] They hired him.

[783] They made sure he was available.

[784] Like, basically these lawyers knew this thing was going to blow up.

[785] He was.

[786] He was, was like semi famous author so they knew they just they got their all their heavy hitters like they knew this could be a big thing yeah and they could they could make it a big thing that they're going to get if he's the guy that got off uh you know that was it a football player right basically exonerated for murder then he then they also was like well we'll get dr henry lee he's from the oj trial and we'll get these people and like just line everybody up so it looks like here's here's what it looks like a team of people who get people off They wouldn't pay this amount of money if they didn't think he wasn't, you know what I mean?

[787] Um, okay, so here, okay, so rare red neurons, okay, basically there were these neurons in Kathleen's brain that were consistent with, uh, the brain having a long period, like a couple hours, lack of oxygen before dying.

[788] So essentially it shows that these injuries to her head happened hours before he, called 911 and she died.

[789] And to me, that's, uh, yeah, this means she was unconscious a while before she actually died.

[790] Right.

[791] So that to me, that's all you, that's all you really need.

[792] Like, because it's even longer than his claimed 45 minutes of like, I was out drinks out by the pool.

[793] And when he found her and he's on 911, he's like, she's alive.

[794] So that would have been 45 minutes.

[795] Yeah.

[796] And that's not consistent with, you can't, neurons don't lie.

[797] Right.

[798] That's, that's, that's, that's, that's deep science.

[799] Yeah.

[800] Also, the thyroid cartilage that was damaged, I can't remember how they described that.

[801] Was it like, you can't break cartilage, right?

[802] So it's like it was, but it was hemorrhaging.

[803] And so basically that means when your thyroid cartilage is damaged, that's strangulation.

[804] It says a fracture of the thyroid neck cartilage.

[805] Oh, okay.

[806] So you can fracture it?

[807] So, but it's indicative.

[808] It's indicative of being strangled, but it also is hemorrhaged.

[809] So she was being strangled.

[810] She was alive.

[811] This isn't a thing where she fell down the stairs, broke her neck.

[812] And that's why that was damaged.

[813] She was strangled while alive.

[814] Yeah.

[815] Almost like someone was holding her down.

[816] Yeah.

[817] And also had their foot on the back of her leg to keep her in place and was straddling her at the same time.

[818] And that's how he got bloods battering.

[819] on the inside of his shorts.

[820] Yeah.

[821] And just hit her on the back of the head as she was sitting on the stairs, flipped her over so that she looked like she had tumbled down.

[822] Tried to clean up a little bit.

[823] She came back.

[824] She came back to consciousness, consciousness, and he had to hit her again, covered up those blood spatters.

[825] Called 911.

[826] I mean.

[827] Or a prowler came in and hit her with an owl.

[828] let's add those together if we're going to fucking do this the owl theory the idea the owl theory is from a neighbor like a nosy neighbor who has nothing to do with the case but he's like I I know what this is and it can't be him and this is really what it is when you for me people believe it people totally believe we're going to get to that and I get the thing where people I was looking up owl injuries today because I was like what do those look like compared to what these both of these cases of both of these women with seven lacerations on the back of their head what do they look like?

[829] not the same because owl talons look like puncture wounds right and these and the lacerations are long drag -marky like cut deep cuts they'll do the emphasis what do they put it when they put the talon over the wound to show you what it looks like but actually owl talons it's not three claws in the front and one in the back it's they have three and it's you know less yes I'm not a fucking owl doctor it's mostly just those three that go like that.

[830] Right.

[831] They're kind of like, they take up all that space.

[832] And the one in the back's up here.

[833] And fun and cool and I like reading about it, but it's not true.

[834] I don't think it's true because was there, are you then saying, you would have to then say that the, that, um, what's the woman in Germany's name, Liz?

[835] Elizabeth.

[836] Yeah, Ratcliffe.

[837] Ratcliffe.

[838] Ratcliff.

[839] Ratliff.

[840] Um, that she was also attacked by now.

[841] Like it, it doesn't make sense because it's the exact same death.

[842] Yeah.

[843] Um, he's the common denominator like maybe the fucking owl found the gay porn could you imagine that owl's like i never use this computer yeah but tonight that's how fucking ridiculous it is i mean look also with that theory he it was long ago enough that he could have been keeping all of his porn in a little file that said porn underneath it and then she was like you know what i'm that's true what kind of women does he like what kind of boobs is he into maybe he was maybe she was fine with him being into gay like that's my thing about it it's like maybe he she did know he was bisexual and was okay with it yeah like it's fine nothing's wrong with that but i think when you get over into fucking paying for sex territory yes having affairs is a different thing having an affair with a male escort in your home while you're at work yeah you know that's and kathleen had divorced her fucking first husband because he was having an affair so she's not okay Hey, or, you know, had cheated on her.

[844] So she's not okay with affairs based on the fact on her history.

[845] Fuck, no. Well, no one's okay with affairs.

[846] I don't even mean affairs.

[847] I mean, like, you know, open marriages.

[848] Yeah.

[849] And he did write in one of the emails to this dude he was trying to hire.

[850] I'm a married man to a wonderful woman.

[851] And she knows or, you know, something like that.

[852] So it's like, it's just such a weird mindset.

[853] it's like he does whatever he wants right and rationalizes it probably i think you know what would freak me out even more is that the way that kathleen and michael met was because when they um when after michael got divorced from his first wife and i think her name's patty and they moved out she took the sons and michael stayed with the two girls um the two girls started playing with katelyn in the neighborhood and that's how Kathleen and Michael met in the first place is because all the girls were friends yeah and I don't know why that freaks me out so much but it's like it's not like they they came together in this weird way that well the there's so there's like family photos of them that make me uncomfortable like but they're all standing together as like this Brady a bunch family yes I don't how old were the the adopted girls when Michael and Kathleen got married They were older.

[854] Yeah, because they had, they, I think those girls met each other when they were like, preteens, maybe.

[855] So the fact that they were together for, like, eight years.

[856] So the fact that they called Kathleen Mom makes me a little uncomfortable.

[857] I just, the whole, the, Michael just seemed like a cult leader to me. And these two adopted girls who lost, first they lost their biological father, then their mother died in these insane circumstances.

[858] They go to and live with this man, family friend, and his wife.

[859] They divorce.

[860] Yeah.

[861] The two girls are with this guy.

[862] They find this great woman and they're like, oh, like, it's almost this like, did Michael tell the adopted daughters to call Kathleen mom in a manipulative way?

[863] Because it would make her want to stick around?

[864] You know what I mean?

[865] Or is it just that they wanted normalcy?

[866] Right.

[867] And they just were like, okay, great.

[868] This is our mom.

[869] We've landed.

[870] We're doing this.

[871] Like, we're building our own.

[872] family and we're going to make this work.

[873] Well, the son's called her mom too, didn't they?

[874] Yes, but No, they couldn't have.

[875] They had their own mom, like a living mom.

[876] They did, but that whole dynamic, there's something off about it to me. Well, because in this I keep talking about it, like, it's my pride and joy.

[877] In this American justice, there is a part where they are all, and I wonder if the producers of that show manipulated them, but they're all sitting around, at like Christmas pictures and one of the daughter says oh yeah this is she loved her stairs she always had to put her Christmas decorations and basically she's talking about the front like the main house staircase which there's a photo of them together in her wedding dress on the stairs yeah so creepy and though and but basically it's just her it's them talking about it like oh she loved her stairs and like didn't even and it's and but there she goes it's so cute and it's just like them all trying to act like we had the best we had the most perfect life we had the most perfect life they were so in love it's almost like if i guess what i guess in the staircase the daughters the adopted daughters feel like they're being paraded to to show to give michael peters and sympathy that he has a family who supports him the way they're shown emotionally so much and and talked about as and they speak on camera so like, you know, emotionally that their dad could never do this.

[878] It almost seems like they're being used by him and his side in a way to show, to have empathy because he has fucking none.

[879] Well, I mean, they, it seems like it's absolutely their choice.

[880] So it's what they want to do.

[881] And I feel like they understand the importance of if someone is accused of this terrible crime, especially if they're innocent, which they believe he is, or at least.

[882] But there's no room for them to even grapple with that idea otherwise you I don't think you could in that scenario because it would be like you this is like now it's us against them right there's no room for gray I need my dad what happened I need my dad to not have done this there's could you imagine because then if he did that then he also it opens the door to their own mother they fucking end up okaying their own mother their biological mother Elizabeth at Ratliff being fucking exhumed.

[883] Yes.

[884] And they think it's going to prove him innocent.

[885] Right.

[886] And instead her cause of death gets changed to homicide.

[887] Yes.

[888] Because they see those fucking lacerations.

[889] And it's all mirror image.

[890] But instead, everyone is against Michael Peterson.

[891] And that's the, that's his narrative is instead they're against him.

[892] Right.

[893] And they're making this stuff up.

[894] Which maybe it's true because this fucking blood analyst was making shit up.

[895] I mean, that's the, nothing is simple.

[896] That asshole.

[897] Nothing is simple and nothing is ever all one way of.

[898] These are the good guys and these are the bad guys.

[899] Totally.

[900] I have room for the fact that I could be totally fucking wrong about all of this and he might be innocent.

[901] 100%.

[902] I am not, I will never be like, not never, but there's room for that.

[903] Yes, there is.

[904] This is just how this seems based on the information that I've been able to find.

[905] And the vibes.

[906] And the vibes.

[907] It's that vibe that that's the thing that drives me the craziest is I just want to go, you don't think you're convincing me of all people because I don't buy your dumb pipe bullshit.

[908] Those eyebrows in that pipe are not fooling me. And also it's just the, I'm like, I'm a connoisseur of good acting.

[909] And this is not good acting at all.

[910] And why are you acting to begin with?

[911] Yes.

[912] Why can't you just talk?

[913] It's like you can still tell acting whether it's good or bad.

[914] Why are you bothering?

[915] The thing that we both named, the thing that I played a recording of is it's terrible acting it is inappropriate it's the there is absolutely nothing genuine about it whatsoever it is as rehearsed it's like bad community theater it's the first time of him speaking to the media too and he thinks that's what's going to make them get on his side because he doesn't understand basic human emotions such as be if you're crying and you are freaking out about what's going on people are on your side because they're like that's a real emotion right that's how he's real and now i can hear the people that would argue of like nobody grieves the same or he was in a position that's not grieving he was in a position that nobody could anticipate or imagine well then why did he's doing it's corny ass fucking statement exactly right he's not this isn't like they they trapped him on the street yeah forced him to give a statement this was him breaking his silence to the press and giving a an official statement And so these are the words he thought would work.

[916] So, fuck you.

[917] It's so crazy.

[918] And now I told you that the way I realized he was guilty.

[919] Tell me. I had been watching, it was the last season of Breaking Bad.

[920] I'm pretty sure it was the last season.

[921] And it was right at the end where everything's going crazy.

[922] And Walt keeps having to leave and then he comes back to the family and, you know, his wife's like, what the fuck.

[923] I hated it.

[924] and he was always lying and there was a part where he is trying to, you know, the thing where he would always make breakfast.

[925] So he was trying to make breakfast and look, I'm making breakfast pancakes everybody.

[926] Normalcy.

[927] And he is as, um, I think either his son or his wife are trying to talk to him and he's opening these drawers and kind of going, what?

[928] No, yes, of course.

[929] And like, keep fucking with the cupboards and doing stuff while answering questions and like trying to pretend to think, but then doing stuff with the cupboards.

[930] There is an almost exactly.

[931] act seen in the staircase where Michael Peterson is in the kitchen and they're like asking in some really kind of crucial you know things and he is doing walt exactly from Breaking Bad where it's like it was such a mirror thing where I was like whoa he's totally lying it was like the exact same thing.

[932] Cranston watched that I wonder Brian Cranston.

[933] Frank that's what I meant Brian Cranston watched that did Jonathan Overholt watch it listen there's a Jonathan Cranston out there I bet you anything I you went to high school with him you loved him great guy you want to know I watched breaking back I bought meth from him um that's fucking crazy I know I just got this weird chill where I was like oh Brian Cranston made that acting choice because that's what it looks like when you lie and when you're trying to make it seem casual and to give yourself time to answer yeah because you look like you're focused on something else Yep.

[934] And you're not.

[935] I'm so distracted by pancake batter bowls.

[936] Wait, what?

[937] I'm in the middle of a, what's that?

[938] Yes.

[939] It's like the weirdest.

[940] And for me, I was like, that's it.

[941] It's over.

[942] If I was on the jury, I'd be like full on, full on death penalty.

[943] Well, at the end of my American justice.

[944] Your favorite.

[945] My favorite American justice.

[946] Your favorite hour of TV show ever.

[947] Thank you, Bo Curtis, for your service to us as true crime listeners.

[948] watchers you don't know how much you mean to us um does he Bill Curtis do he does oh you no could he know yeah I don't know I don't know I don't think he could possibly understand how much we love him yeah as a remember in the very beginning the very first live show we did was that show in Chicago that was for the Chicago podcast festival and they knew Bill Curtis somebody said that they might be able to get us a Bill Curtis walk on and we were like oh my god it was like we were so excited for so long but bill curtis our lord and savior he was he was busy anyhow at the end of this american justice my television show that i produce um there's a jailhouse interview with michael peterson and in it he says i'm in here i'm as free as i would be out there and to me that's that thing of like the truly psychotic where he he's basically saying you haven't gotten me yeah like you you can do anything you want but you haven't gotten me it's also like this the system is so messed up outside of here like the government in your life and stuff it's the same as in here when really instead of being like i'm in here because i'm in here because of a huge miscarriage of justice please do something this is wrong like he's okay with it i'm innocent i'm innocent i'm i didn't kill her none of that's happening he's like look what your life he basically is trying to say some bullshit theory of like you know whether your life is heaven or hell it's all in your mind and he's like at peace with it he's yes basically he goes i'm not saying i like jail obviously but like and but it's this thing where to me it's what it is about michael peterson which is to me what's fascinating about killers and psychopaths and all those people where they have they have to do it.

[949] They have to win.

[950] They can't not say that thing.

[951] So even if it's going to make them look even guiltier, that's his M .O. That's his goal.

[952] He has to tell you.

[953] You didn't get me. Yes, I'm wearing this jail outfit.

[954] Yes, I'm in here, but no, I'm actually free.

[955] Right.

[956] So, you know, too bad.

[957] Or almost this, like, he thinks of himself as this beautiful miscarriage of justice.

[958] Yeah.

[959] And this, like, he's a martyr.

[960] He's a martyr.

[961] Yeah.

[962] Yeah.

[963] And it's like, dude, this isn't, Your wife is dead.

[964] There's no talk of her.

[965] Oy, ve.

[966] I know.

[967] I know.

[968] But that, that American justice was made in like 2004 or five.

[969] So they had no idea that this story continues for quite some time after.

[970] Well, that's what's funny about this, this novel idea episode of Forensic Files, which you can watch on YouTube, is that I think that they get, so of course, it's before we find out.

[971] all of these issues around it and our friend dirty dwayne is in it like being interviewed as the guy who solved the case yes and so that's problematic but i think really if you ignore that i think that that episode gets it correct the whole thing is correct it's just the the shit that happens afterwards is problematic so it's so funny that this like dated forensic files without the uh you know fucking addendums and shit yeah i think it's correct i do too i mean but it does it really well to show you exactly why he's guilty and then so much shit comes out later that whole thing was like what is real oh nothing i mean blood spatter evidence experts are fraudulent to the core where it's not even a real thing yeah you can't even you can't even rely on them who can you rely on whoever the other person is that's made up their specialty of like no no no I did this in my basement don't worry I tested it out on myself we had a great time here's the video we laughed we loved well shit that's fucking Michael the murder of Kathleen Peterson by a Michael Peterson and in Stephen's timeline that I was reading off of he said that those French documentarians have another as yet to be released as of December 2017 but They have a third...

[972] Yeah, they're working on a third documentary because he was released this year.

[973] Yeah, he got...

[974] So he did an Alfred plea, which we know from the West Memphis 3, basically says that you know that the state has enough to convict you, but so you're agreeing that they have enough to convict you, but you're still saying you're not guilty.

[975] Yeah, you're not pleading guilty.

[976] Right.

[977] Yeah.

[978] So he's out now.

[979] Yeah, he had a time served situation.

[980] Right.

[981] which we don't need to get into all right bye no no no I just mean like he served 86 months and so now he and it's concurrent with them yeah all of the the way he gets out and gets bonds and in between shit and all that him going in and out of jail is like imagine if that was a black man how you would have never seen that person again yeah that the way this keeps just getting entertained because this does happen to other people when it's like, oh, yeah, this, all of this has to get thrown out.

[982] And they don't immediately throw up a bond and like, hey, let's get this person out of there.

[983] Hey, this blood spatter analysis has lied in 34 cases.

[984] I bet he's lied in these other ones as well.

[985] No, it doesn't turn around like that.

[986] It doesn't at all.

[987] No. I wonder what Christmas is like with fucking Michael Peterson.

[988] What do you think this Christmas is going to be like for everyone?

[989] Well, so at the last, so the second addendum French documentary, The Staircase 2, Electric Bougaloo, I have to say it every time.

[990] In that one, one of the daughters, I kind of like that we're not naming their names because I feel like they are, they let them live their lives.

[991] And also just they're, they're really kind of the subject of this documentary.

[992] It's like they're, it's so much pain for them.

[993] Yeah.

[994] It's been so horrible for them, the whole way.

[995] I almost want to go, like, if you need to fight and believe that, please do that.

[996] Because, yes, because.

[997] It just sucks that their other sister is on the other side, you know, that they're fighting.

[998] But in the part two, one of the sisters no longer is speaking out for Michael Peterson.

[999] Okay.

[1000] Well, the daughter, Caitlin, Kathleen's actual biological daughter, said, that when she saw the autopsy there's like this beautiful quote by her that's somewhere here says the only thing I have to say is that about the trial and all the subsequent fallout is that if there was any closure to possibly come from all of this it came after sitting through the entire trial and listening day after day to all the evidence on both sides and after the closing arguments when all was said and done I felt confident that I knew what happened I knew what happened to my mom Well, there's no true closure that can ever come from an event like this for a loss of steep.

[1001] I was ready to walk away and start moving forward with my life.

[1002] And that's Caitlin, no, thinking that Michael Peterson killed her mother.

[1003] Right.

[1004] Yeah.

[1005] So sad.

[1006] And not feeling caught up that.

[1007] Yeah.

[1008] Her stepfather was also being persecuted.

[1009] Right.

[1010] She just was kind of like, yeah.

[1011] I see this.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] It's just awful.

[1014] It is.

[1015] It's intense.

[1016] I'm glad we jived it together.

[1017] Should we say what we're happy about this week?

[1018] Go for it.

[1019] Should we, should it be like something boring or should it be like, thanks everyone?

[1020] Definitely boring.

[1021] Tried to do in a very flat voice.

[1022] Well, I was just thinking about how different both of our lives were before we started this podcast or when we started this podcast and when we kind of came together at the Halloween party and I lied about having watched the staircase.

[1023] It sounded right.

[1024] And just how grateful I am from this podcast by this podcast and the listeners and the community.

[1025] And I mean, I was kind of in a rough.

[1026] We think we were both kind of in different reasons and rough points of our lives and going through some of our own shit.

[1027] And this podcast has changed that completely and made my life into this beautiful fucking thing that I'm so happy for and grateful for.

[1028] And, you know, if all we ever do is 100 episodes, this is.

[1029] than one of the highlights of my life.

[1030] For real.

[1031] Like one of, I, it feels like a dream.

[1032] It's so true.

[1033] It's been insane.

[1034] I love you very much.

[1035] I love you too, Karen.

[1036] And I love that you thought to do this and made me come to your house to do it.

[1037] I love that you said okay.

[1038] But it was one of those things where it was just like, in starting to do it, it was just like, oh, yeah.

[1039] This is like, even if it's just for us, it's so much fun that conversation we just had about the staircase even when we were arguing about certain things was so much fun that's all I want to do I know it's the best it's so much fun but also because and sometimes it's been I will say this I'm I totally agree and every I mean that's part of the fun for me has been this experience of basically kind of standing in the center of an explosion with you and and getting through it with you and like truly growing with you I feel like oh my god completely but there have been times where you know we when we started out we said whatever the fuck we wanted because we right just in your house and then you know of course then we went through like a teenage phase where we got super self -conscious because people started going you're saying this word wrong and you're doing that wrong and you have the wrong thoughts and you have the wrong ideas and we're like you have to do this right yes and then we got real worried about what if we lose people or what if we you know and there's just all it's like the natural growth process.

[1040] And now, so that conversation we just had felt so much more like one of the first episodes because, of course, in my mind, I'm going, we can't say that, that's libel, that's whatever, we're talking, we're putting words in someone's mouth.

[1041] But overall, that's the point of this podcast.

[1042] And I said this at the Kansas City show, I believe, was we're not trying to be 48 hours.

[1043] We're sitting on the couch watching 48 hours talking about 40.

[1044] hours to each other.

[1045] Yeah.

[1046] And we've never wanted to be broadcast, you know, professional broadcasters or newscasters or anything.

[1047] We just want to talk about the thing that freaks us out so much.

[1048] Right.

[1049] And fascinates us so much.

[1050] And we're sitting in this room, this loft pod loft surrounded by art made by these incredible people who we have somehow fucking touched in a way and.

[1051] Well, because we have so much in common with.

[1052] Right.

[1053] And I'm just honored.

[1054] I'm honored and I'm amazed.

[1055] And thank you, Stephen, too, for being here.

[1056] Yeah.

[1057] It's just, I feel really lucky.

[1058] It's weird.

[1059] We are two of the luckiest people.

[1060] I can't believe it.

[1061] For sure.

[1062] Yeah.

[1063] And we're filled with ice cream cake.

[1064] Oh, my God.

[1065] I mean, and for all you guys that have been, you know, one of my favorite, favorite things is it's sometimes when we meet people at shows.

[1066] And they say, I've been listening since the beginning.

[1067] And then I'll go, oh, you have since the first.

[1068] one and they'll go oh well no I mean like I came out in episode five yeah and on that on the last time we were out someone said that and I go from the beginning and she goes day one I found you remember that girl that told us the story she said sorry I don't remember your name but she said I opened I was in a bad mood I opened up my um you know iTunes podcast saw the thing and was like that seems interesting and clicked on it yeah and she was like at first I hated your voices yeah that's the other thing because she said at first I thought you're both annoying or something.

[1069] And then I kept listening and I loved it and I couldn't stop listening.

[1070] Yeah.

[1071] It is cool.

[1072] And we read all of the notes and all of the messages on Twitter and all.

[1073] I mean, it's just, it doesn't, it doesn't make any sense.

[1074] My mind is fucking blown.

[1075] Yeah.

[1076] We're both, you guys have changed our lives.

[1077] Thank you so fucking much.

[1078] We love it.

[1079] We love it.

[1080] We love you.

[1081] 100 episodes.

[1082] So fun.

[1083] Thank you for being here with us.

[1084] Yeah.

[1085] We're very grateful.

[1086] Yeah.

[1087] And mostly we want you to stay sexy.

[1088] And we also want you to don't get murdered.

[1089] Bye.

[1090] Elvis, want cookie?