E48: Jamie Laing & Ed Williams - The Sweet Success

[0] Candy kittens.

[1] I wonder what you think I'm talking about when I say those two words.

[2] And I'm guessing due to the success of this business, a lot of you will actually already know.

[3] It's one of the fastest growing confectionery brands in the UK, and it was started by reality TV star Jamie Lang with his business partner, Ed Williams in 2012.

[4] It kind of begs the question, what adult would start a candy brand at the age of 20 -something?

[5] But these guys have absolutely smashed it.

[6] They're selling a bag of sweets every couple of seconds.

[7] They've sold millions and millions of bags of candy, generating tens of millions in revenue over the last couple of years.

[8] And their brand is an absolute juggernaut.

[9] The momentum is absolutely crazy.

[10] And these two guys, Jamie and Ed, are the perfect pairing.

[11] If you've ever wondered what your perfect business partner would be, if you ever thought what the perfect complementary piece of the jigsaw puzzle that you might be missing, these guys have found that in each other.

[12] One of them is incredibly overly stimulated and excited and Ed, on the other hand, is calm.

[13] He's pragmatic.

[14] He's very, very practical.

[15] My conversation with them was funny.

[16] It was informative.

[17] It was real.

[18] It was everything that this podcast has always been.

[19] And I can't wait for you to hear it.

[20] So without further ado, this is the diary of a CEO and I'm Stephen Bartlett.

[21] I hope nobody is listening.

[22] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[23] Ed, Jamie.

[24] I alluded to the fact that I'd known Candy Kiddins some time before we started recording and here's how so I don't know what a year it was it was a couple of years ago I was on Cedars I was a broke young man entrepreneurial and investor and I was scrolling down Cedars and I saw Candy Kittens and I was so so compelled by the story I saw you on there I looked into the brand a little bit more I'm not talking shit here it was probably the closest I've ever come on Cedars to investing in something and so I've seen it grow and grow and grow since then.

[25] Every time I get on a virgin flight now from New York to London which I do all the bloody time it's the thing that I'm eating I'm eating like the watermelon ones and at the end of the flight you come to my chair and it's just all these fucking wrappers like the candy Yeah so that's my that's my sort of historical connection to the brand I love the fact that because when you said you said I was broke but I was looking to invest I was like how is that allows you to you right?

[26] You've got to click a couple of buttons and pretend you've got a little bit of excess income and you can bob your uncle, so...

[27] Did you ever invest in anything on Cedars?

[28] I never did, and I've invested off -seaters, but I was looking for a platform like that.

[29] I was obsessed with Dragon's Den, and it was one of those platforms that would allow me to invest a little bit and feel like an investor, and there was two ones that I really remember.

[30] One of them was like some indoor beach, whatever, and the other was Candy Kiddins.

[31] That felt the most solid at the time.

[32] Yeah.

[33] So I guess my first question is, how did you get there?

[34] How did you get to that point?

[35] What's the context of, you know, I know you guys met in a pub one day and all those things, but why did you choose Cedars as a platform to raise investment versus all the other options out there?

[36] It's a good question, actually.

[37] I think that we'd reached a point where we thought, okay, to get to that next level.

[38] And I think at this stage, we were probably a couple years in there.

[39] We'd kind of gone through family and friends, round of investment, pulled together enough money to kind of get the business going.

[40] Can I ask you a question on that?

[41] Yeah, I've always been too scared to raise money from anybody that I know and maybe that's maybe that's a sign that I don't back myself, but the thought of raising money from friends and family terrifies me. I think that, well, I think to be honest, this is, Jamie and I have always been sort of, we're very different people, but we bring completely different things.

[42] And one thing that Jamie's always been amazing at is finding money.

[43] So he's like a Jack Russell for money.

[44] He can go and sniff it out and just go and find the people and the right friends.

[45] And I think that.

[46] as long as you're doing it in a way that everybody's happy and everybody's up front and transparent from the beginning that actually look we're going into a point here where it could go wrong I think you can work but what do you think but also there's I think there's two things to this as well because firstly we were we were quite young we didn't really understand how important cash was for a business and so we were looking at the easiest place to get it we didn't realize that you we we did but we didn't realize the concept of you could go pretty much to other people and other people would do that.

[47] We kind of, well, what's the easiest place to get money?

[48] Okay, friends and family, and that's why we'll do it.

[49] And I think also for, I think it's important to understand that there's this sort of big misconception that I have money growing on trees everywhere and that I have this bank balance from McVitties.

[50] I've never seen that.

[51] I mean, and everyone always writes things saying that, oh, he's heir to McFitties.

[52] I'm not.

[53] I don't know where that money is.

[54] but it is true that yeah yeah have you seen that louis capaldi video where he's talking about he found his net worth of 10 million on google oh yeah yeah he's still got the new york wallpaper in his bedroom have you he's hilarious yeah he's as genius but it's true and people throwing numbers around with all different things and actually um you know most of it's not true but uh you know i think that i've always said this it's you know in terms of business you cash is so important it's oxygen you need it to make you breathe and for us we need the cash and i think that it's like a riddle everyone has money in their pockets It's just finding a way of getting the money from them into your pockets.

[55] If you have a great idea, if you're passionate, most people buy into the individuals.

[56] You know, they're not really buying into the business unless it's something like Seasvig.

[57] Okay, that's a great thing.

[58] But when you're meeting someone, you kind of go, okay, is this person, do I like this person?

[59] Are they passionate?

[60] Do you think they got drive?

[61] Do you think they're going to achieve what they want to achieve?

[62] And then you kind of invest in them.

[63] You know, you can create a great business, but if you have a wrong team surrounding it, it's probably going to fail.

[64] But if you have a great team and a mediocre business, more chance of it succeeding.

[65] So it's about going to different individuals and persuading them and proving to them and showing that you really have a belief that your brand or business is going to achieve something great.

[66] And I think that's what we were doing with Candy Kittens.

[67] Because it was so authentic and real to us, we found it quite not easy at all, but we found it easier to meet people who were potential investors.

[68] But Cedars for us was a platform because it was exciting.

[69] It was fun.

[70] We could make a big show about it.

[71] We were new.

[72] Publicity.

[73] Publicity.

[74] I think also at the time crowdfunding itself was new.

[75] It was a real buzz around it.

[76] So everybody that you spoke to that was talking about raising money or doing these things was doing it through crowdfunding.

[77] So I guess we also slight kind of human sheep mentality.

[78] We were like, okay, well, we want a bit of that.

[79] We want to go in and get involved in that as well.

[80] Did it work?

[81] Yeah, that's another story.

[82] Another story.

[83] But it was actually, it was quite a good thing, I think, from a PR and kind of hype perspective.

[84] And I think that's important.

[85] to to say is that it didn't work for us.

[86] Why?

[87] Because we approached it in the wrong way.

[88] We believed that because we had a profile in myself, because the brand had a profile, because we had 80 ,000 people following us on social media with the brand, we thought that people were going to invest.

[89] And we thought that was going to, that amount of people was going to turn into cash.

[90] And it just doesn't work that way, as you know.

[91] really doesn't um and we were mistaken i think with there's lots of i think uh crowdfunding is a great um place for a lot of different people but for some people it isn't because you know that you you kind of got to get investors before you got to get people interested before you've got to do all these different things and we did none of that work we just thought okay fine we're going to put candy kittens on the website and everyone's going to invest and it didn't work out that way for i mean you hear about all these kind of big success stories of people fund in 30 minutes or Yeah, but actually the reality is that a lot of them are doing a huge amount of groundwork beforehand.

[92] So we didn't really, we were too naive to that and actually didn't really line up any investment beforehand.

[93] We did a bit because Cedars kind of explained that that's sort of a good tip would be to do this.

[94] And we had a bit, but not enough.

[95] And so how did that play out for you to include the Cedar story?

[96] How much did you raise?

[97] So what actually happened, which was, again, just another example of one.

[98] of the hundred times in our lives where we've been just incredibly lucky.

[99] We hit a point where we were about a week out and it looked like we probably were about 80 % funded, but we didn't think we were going to just tip over and get that extra 20, 25%.

[100] So we spoke to our existing shareholders, our first investors.

[101] And one of them said, oh, well, if these 150 people have backed you and are really interested, maybe I've missed something.

[102] Why don't I just put all the money in myself?

[103] And we were like, okay, well, wish you'd said that six months ago.

[104] But let's Let's go for it.

[105] And he actually essentially put all the money in himself.

[106] And then we had a group of about 20, 25 people that had invested or pledged on CEDA's over $5 grand, I think it was.

[107] So in order to kind of honor their commitment to us and honor their faith they showed in the brand.

[108] We said, okay, well, you guys can still come in at that valuation.

[109] We're kind of on of that, bought them in.

[110] And then everybody that invested less, we kind of politely declined and sent them a bag of sweets and said, thank you very much.

[111] and kind of kept them involved in the journey but yeah i'm super intrigued there jami about the misconceptions thing yeah because it's got to be the case that that misconception follows you around right and and i also noticed you were very quick to address that particular point so i wanted to you to give me context as to what that what that's like as an entrepreneur you know because the more the more successful you get and this is just me guessing from a very because i've never had to sort of carry that misconception around with you because of the mcvitties thing um the more success you you get, the more people, because of the way that humans are, like to discredit or discount your success, because in some respects will make them feel good about themselves, or if they can take the credit off you and mitigate the hard work that you've done and try and take that away from you, then it shines a better light on themselves in some respect.

[112] The thought that you might have worked really, really hard and done something really, really good is something that makes others feel inadequate to some degree.

[113] Yeah, that's totally it.

[114] And I suppose, if I'm totally honest it's probably a defensive thing now because um you know i i think that that is it the sort of main question when ed and i go and do different talks and chats and all these different things the question that comes out every single time is said well you had a lot of money so surely your family helped you with that and i said well no that's not the case um and it's it's it's it's probably a um it's probably a defensive thing for myself but also it's important to know that um i we didn't come from a place from that situation so people listening to this podcast or listening to a talks or whatever it is, know that it is possible to achieve those things, even coming from a completely normal place in a sense.

[115] But I think, yeah, it is tough because I think in life, you want to be kind of proud of what you've achieved and proud of what you're doing and all those different things.

[116] And so when people try and give excuses or say for the reason, well, this is why you've achieved what you achieved, you kind of want to hit them back with something else a lot of the time.

[117] And so that's probably what I do.

[118] But I don't, you know, I mean, I joined a reality TV show.

[119] I mean, the amount of shit that I got given, you know, I'm used to it.

[120] I'm totally, I'm used to it.

[121] But I think it's more, for some reason, you have more, there's a lot of pride we have with our business and we have a lot of passion towards it.

[122] And Ed and I were 21, 22 years old.

[123] You know, you started a young entrepreneur.

[124] You know how hard is the beginning for people to take you seriously.

[125] For anyone to take you seriously, you know, even our parents didn't believe that we were going to set up a sweet company.

[126] And Ed and I, to our sort of credit, have built this company up from the ground up, you know, nearly losing it a million times and going through lots of different struggles like every single person does.

[127] And so you want to be proud of that because you kind of go, well, this is what we've done and this is what we've achieved.

[128] And we started with £3 ,000 in the bank.

[129] We didn't start with a million or whatever it was.

[130] And so I probably counter it every single time for two reasons, going back to your question, is firstly because I want people to, to realize that anything is kind of possible if you put your mind to it.

[131] You don't have to be in a certain situation to raise capital or to build a business.

[132] You don't have to be wealthy.

[133] And anyone can do it if you really put the hard work in.

[134] And secondly, we're proud of candy kittens.

[135] And we built it ourselves.

[136] And I don't want other people to believe differently because why would I?

[137] Also, as you said, then they can't, they won't see that path as being achievable for themselves.

[138] That's it.

[139] You want to kind of make the path.

[140] And I think, you know, in life, I think what is really important, I think that success, growing up, I always thought that if you made a lot of money and you had this and had that, that was going to equal success.

[141] And what I've realized now is that that is totally not success.

[142] That is actually having a purpose and that links to success.

[143] If you have a purpose in life, you feel very successful because you wake up every day and you want to achieve and do something.

[144] And for us, it's, we feel incredibly.

[145] successful every single day because we get to do something that we want to do all the time.

[146] And we really encourage the younger generation to go out there and do the same thing because freaking out, people now are told that you have to go into this job or into this industry to achieve this.

[147] You know, we always talk about this at schools.

[148] You're told you have to pass this exam to get to this university.

[149] And if you get to this university, you get this degree that means you're going to reach here, and it's totally false.

[150] You know, going out there and doing something that you really want to do and want to achieve, that is way more fulfilling and way better than anything else.

[151] You know, you dropped out of university and look where you are now.

[152] And it was because you just said, oh, screw this.

[153] I kind of want to go and do what I want to do.

[154] And we really want other people in this world to go, it doesn't matter what background from what gender you are, whoever you are, you can go and do it if you put your mind to it.

[155] And here's me playing devil's advocate.

[156] And this is a question for both of you.

[157] Yeah.

[158] And I guess the reason I asked this question is because I think as much as we, and I think I literally posted about this on my LinkedIn yesterday, as much as entrepreneurs, we did it ourselves and the reason my my one of my first questions to you was about misconceptions so it's interesting that you raised it before I asked the question the reason I are my first question was about misconceptions is I know that even if you come from say say you did I know that it's a great great whatever yeah even if you did come from a wealthy background it's not a precursor for success in your own life and I've got so in fact my most successful friends typically aren't the ones that go on to do great things because if they had it handed to them and it's often my friends that were deprived of their parents or whatever their parents' resources that end up going and building a life for themselves.

[159] Umar Kamani's a great example with Pretty Little Thing who's coming on to do this podcast live in a couple of weeks' time.

[160] He's had the credit robbed from him because his dad's the billionaire founder of Boohoo.

[161] But I've been there with him and I know his journey.

[162] And so I, even as an...

[163] It's a shame that, isn't it?

[164] I mean, we had somebody on our podcast.

[165] It's a tremendous shame.

[166] Jamie and I have got our own podcast.

[167] We had somebody on a few weeks ago.

[168] And I had a call the day before from there, her PR manager.

[169] And she said, can we just make sure we, whatever we do, do not talk about school life or early life because she had quite a privileged, went to a really nice boarding school, blah, blah, blah.

[170] And she doesn't want to talk about that because it always discredits what she's gone on to achieve.

[171] Sure.

[172] And it's just kind of a weird thing that people actually have that.

[173] Because with Umar, he is, he is the most obsessive, hardworking, it's, it's, he's obsessive to the point where you one might diagnose it as a bit of an illness.

[174] And, and to think, and to have watched him for five years, where he's a bit of a client of mine, but he's become a very, very close friend.

[175] Yeah.

[176] To watch what the sacrifice he's gone to and to hear everybody in the city and globally just say, oh, well, his dad's a billionaire.

[177] It, it feels like a massive injustice.

[178] Yeah.

[179] And I've had no, you know, right now and with, with my team and stuff, they'll ask me, what's, what's him I'll like?

[180] And I'll say, I'll give, I'll be honest with you, he's a bit of genius.

[181] He'll never be given that credit.

[182] Yeah.

[183] Yeah, yeah.

[184] And that's why the first question about that.

[185] Is that problem?

[186] He, he realized that was the case.

[187] And I think it did impact him early on.

[188] But now he's so comfortable because he's gone so far and so many people have been around him to see that he is the one that's taking the brand there that he's getting more and more relaxed with it.

[189] But that's why the first question to you was, because I didn't think that was the case.

[190] Yeah, but I think also it's, it's just, you know, that's the sort of cross you bear.

[191] But also I really think it's important not to not to forget about where you came from your roots and you know I went to a private school I went to a boarding school for the age of eight years old and this was my question about self -awareness was what are the privileges that you you think you've had in your lives that have put you here because they might not be financial privileges but they could be educated it could be good parents yeah I mean we talk about this a bit but I think actually for for both of us probably speaking for both of us is that our parents have always let us, have given us the confidence to go and do what we want to do and have never, ever held us back.

[192] Yes, when we started the business, they said, sweet company, you've been mad, what you're thinking about.

[193] But ultimately, they believed in us and said, actually, go on then, if you think you can do it, go and show us.

[194] And I think that's probably the greatest kind of gift that definitely I was given is the fact that our parents believed in us and kind of encouraged us to go and achieve anything.

[195] I was never told that I wasn't good enough or I couldn't go and speak to that person or go and do that thing.

[196] I would go and be confident to have a conversation with anybody from any background, any walk of life.

[197] And I think my parents gave me that.

[198] And that's probably for me, the biggest asset, I think, to do what I've done.

[199] Yeah, I think that's exactly.

[200] I think the biggest asset, I think, I think what you do, Growing up, right, you know, like I said, I went to sort of private school and things and I don't think you're educated better.

[201] I don't think that you have, there are lots of things that are positive about going to a boarding school, a private educated school, but there are lots of negative things as well.

[202] But the biggest positive for me was you're given confidence.

[203] You're told to stand up in front of the whole school and give a talk or you're told to read a perm out.

[204] And that inner confidence that it puts within you is so vital in life.

[205] The reason why a lot of people don't go out there and achieve what they want to achieve is because they lack confidence.

[206] They're scared about failing.

[207] They're scared about not achieving something.

[208] They're worried what people will think of them.

[209] And I think it's really important from an early late age to have confidence because then you can believe in yourself that you can go and achieve stuff.

[210] And for Ed and I at the very beginning, you know, we wanted to go and set up a sweet company, right?

[211] We had no idea how to make sweets.

[212] We had no idea where to get them from.

[213] We had no idea what we were doing.

[214] But we thought, well, no, we're going to do it because why?

[215] Why a sweet company?

[216] Well, it's interesting because I believe a lot in kind of sort of fate, I think.

[217] And when I was a kid, I sort of say this a lot, but it's just the truth.

[218] When I was a kid, I was scared of the dark.

[219] And I used to go and sleep in my brother's room because I was scared of the dark and wanted to share a room with him.

[220] And he used to tell me a story of Jamie and Sweetwell to make me fall asleep.

[221] So I had this obsession with sweets, coupled with the fact that my parents didn't allow me to eat any sweets, because I was so hyper.

[222] They fed me, I fed me white chocolate.

[223] There was more sugar in it than anything else.

[224] I said that's what they used to feed me. So I had this obsession with sweets.

[225] I love sweets.

[226] And growing up, my one wish would be to have a world made of sweets that sweets didn't damage your teeth.

[227] And I think this manifesting in my head kind of grew and grew.

[228] And I went to New York when I was about 17 years old.

[229] And I went to Dylan's candy bar, which is Ralph Loren's daughter's, sweet shop.

[230] She has a few over America.

[231] It's kind of like the Hamleys, the Harrods of sweet stores.

[232] You imagine Willie Wonka, Yeah, it's a crazy place.

[233] Actually, so it's amazing.

[234] And I went in there, and it was incredible, and it was amazing, and it was wonderful.

[235] And people were spending $300 on sweets.

[236] I thought, this is crazy.

[237] I want to create a sweet shop.

[238] And the idea behind it was to create a sweet shop that was a mixture between Willie Wonka and Hugh Hefner.

[239] That was the idea, because I wanted the kittens to be beautiful girls, because I thought that would be fun for me. And I wanted the candy was a sort of generalized time for sweets.

[240] Had to drop the Hugh Heffner thing pretty quick.

[241] It wasn't a good luck.

[242] It wasn't a good luck.

[243] It wasn't a good luck.

[244] And Ed very quickly swooped in.

[245] and said, let's not set up a sweet shop.

[246] Let's not do that because that means there we only have one situation where people can go to, you only have a location.

[247] And why do you just want to have a location?

[248] Why do you want everyone to have these sweets?

[249] And I said, okay, this is a good idea, but what about the Hugh Heffner thing?

[250] He said, it's a terrible idea.

[251] Getting rid of that idea.

[252] I think it was the fact that Jamie had kind of stumbled across this massive opportunity in the market for a modern confectionery company, Somebody that was delivering something that was relevant and resonated with a young audience.

[253] If you look at chocolate, there's a chocolate bag, box, bar, but literally every single person out there from like a real cheap, cheap chocolate bar through to a champagne truffle, 75 % cacao thing.

[254] And then sweets, there's just sweets for kids and maybe a tin of sweets in that weird kind of like white powder, hard -boil sweets that your grandma's got in her front of her car.

[255] And nothing in between.

[256] as Jamie started telling me this idea it was sort of like a light bulb moment and it kind of came off together and yeah we've kind of been going at it ever since but also which I think is so important is that when you're selling a product right I really feel like it needs to have a story and it needs to feel real towards the consumer and for us it was very real it felt real towards everyone they actually believed it so it was kind of okay for us to to go down this road of making sweets because they went, oh, no, this is believable.

[257] Actually, I understand where this is coming from.

[258] We had this story and we had this background thing.

[259] So we kind of knew what we wanted to create and where we wanted to go with it.

[260] I think the trouble happens is when someone says, okay, what do we?

[261] They sit in a room, they brainstorm about what they want to create.

[262] I'm sure it has happened a lot of times, but I find it very rare that someone goes, okay, there's a gap in the market for a new water.

[263] Let's go and create a new water because you don't actually, it's not within you.

[264] And you really, you know this, Steve, like business, building a brand is hard.

[265] It's about, it doesn't matter if you're a billionaire or you have so many social media followers.

[266] It doesn't matter.

[267] Business is still hard.

[268] And going back to the pretty little things guy, it's amazing what he's done with that business.

[269] Doesn't matter if his dad's a billionaire and all these different things.

[270] It's incredible what he's done.

[271] And he should get the full credit for that.

[272] And it's because he actually really believed and he knew what he wanted to do.

[273] And if you get lost in life, it doesn't matter whatever you're doing, you then become muddle and you don't know what you're doing.

[274] You need to have a destination without a doubt.

[275] And for us, we always knew our destination.

[276] We knew what we were trying to create.

[277] We were trying to create the best suite possible, which we were doing all we're still doing today.

[278] That's what we want to just create the best sweet possible.

[279] That's what we're always trying to do.

[280] And I think if it's not authentic and not real, you suddenly forget what you're driving towards.

[281] I think consumers also can just see through that so easily now, right?

[282] There's so many touch points.

[283] If you were, when you were Harrybo and it launched a bag of sweets, they just put a bag of sweets on the shelf and they can kind of set, they can make up the story and say what they want.

[284] And there's nowhere else to find out.

[285] You see one TV advert and one bag.

[286] Whereas now, there's so many places for people to go and find out about your brand, whether that's the content you're putting out or the stuff that other consumers are saying.

[287] And there's so many brands as well.

[288] So there's so many.

[289] So much choice.

[290] So you can see, if there's 30 ,000 bags, different variations of Harrybo, it's very easy.

[291] for there to be a standout and then grey.

[292] Exactly.

[293] Everything actually that's, you know.

[294] It's a great point.

[295] And that's where we started this kind of unique segment for premium confectionery.

[296] So we're the first people to come along and make a gummy sweet and sell it for three pounds a bag.

[297] Just to, can we just quickly say, we did that by mistake?

[298] We did.

[299] That was an accident.

[300] We did it by mistake.

[301] Like a lot of things that we've done.

[302] They were happy accidents.

[303] Which part was a mistake?

[304] Three pans.

[305] So we just kind of made a sweet.

[306] We said, okay, we wanted to taste like this.

[307] We want to use real fruit juice.

[308] We want to use natural ingredients.

[309] We want to put it in this nice.

[310] bag.

[311] Sweet, okay, that's going to cost three quid.

[312] And then we just kind of put it on the shelf.

[313] It's interesting you referred to that as a mistake because it's like unintentional intention.

[314] You created something that you wanted and that you thought was great.

[315] And you are also probably the customer to some degree as well.

[316] So it's funny that the most, it's unintentional, but it comes from.

[317] I suppose, yeah, it's unconscious more than, more than unintentional, I think.

[318] We were just going, okay, this is the thing.

[319] and we talk about this a bit where we say I study design at university and a big part of design is all about doing your research and understanding the market and really going out there and we do all these things and you just think why because actually if we had gone out and asked the market what they wanted nobody would never have come back with this we would have come back with another harryboe exactly so for us that three pound thing was just so jarring and so unbelievable but for people in the industry but actually for us we thought well we believe it we can do it and we've proven that and um yeah you're right it's just don't go and ask the market for research yeah yeah the best business plan is no business plan supposedly it's a really interesting thing i say about my own business which you know we we we were a bunch of young kids we walked into this office the first thing we did we spent 13 grand of our startup budget on a slide and it was and we were like everyone can go on a holiday whenever you like you don't have to book holidays the next thing we bought was a basketball hoop so we've got this office no desks a 13 grand slide and ballpick being installed we're all sat on these fucking one pound bandit desk like yeah a couple of bean bags and there's this photo of this office massive office and they're just installing a slide before the desks have arrived we're going to be Google yeah but it was totally like this will be a fun place to work every day and it's funny that in reflection the naivity is the motivator behind all of our greatest decisions because if we had if we'd read a book on how to run a business and how to make an office and how to do marketing we would have been doing fucking newspapers in a four white -walled office but the naivety made you know these kids we started doing thunderclaps on Twitter with people like you back in the day and we create this tam thunder clap and then we you know in this crazy fucking wacky warehouse we have a hundred meter jungle in there where the birds sing and that naivety which you probably see in Disney and plt in your brand is in fact it's funny that when we um you talked about cedars at the start when we put together our cedars campaign we went out and got a few kind of testimonials for our campaign video and we thought we'd smashed it we were selling in self -witches at the time so when it spoke to the head of food at Selfridges, and she said, we said, can you say something nice about us and kind of put the camera on her?

[320] And she was like, and we thought she was going to say, these guys are geniuses.

[321] They've nailed it.

[322] They're experts of what they do.

[323] And she actually just said, do you know what?

[324] I think these guys are going to go really, really far because they haven't got a clue what they're doing.

[325] Yeah.

[326] They don't know anything about the industry.

[327] They're totally naive.

[328] And that was the, like, everything you've just said is the fact that we came at it from a completely fresh, fresh place.

[329] I honestly say this.

[330] And it's so funny that you use the word naivity.

[331] I said all the time naivity is your biggest weapon and it is so important to realize that people go out into the market and try and study everything and understand how they do this and that I put it down to the same thing if you someone said you should go and we're doing the mask too have you seen the mask with Jim Carrey or let's call Ace Ventura I go and do Ace Ventura number five whatever it's but it's not going to be Jim Carrey you're going to play it if you've seen Ace Ventura it is impossible to play anything else but how Jim Carrey played it it's impossible so it's actually the naivety of going into it just seeing it completely raw for yourself.

[332] That's when you'll gain success because you go about it just how you think.

[333] If you start following others it is so important to I think it's important to have a mentor.

[334] I think it's important to have someone that you can turn to and look up to.

[335] But in terms of what you're creating, do it yourself.

[336] We said we were 21, 20 years old creating sweets, putting them in the bags that no one has seen before, making them gluten free, making them cost three quid and just putting them out there.

[337] And we did it.

[338] And we said, well, we like it.

[339] so we're going to do it and I think that's so important people try and follow these trends and if you start following these trends you know the same thing goes for and it drifts into different things like I always talk to people who go into reality TV or who are creating a podcast or creating a YouTube channel you have to know the reason why you're doing it if you're going into reality TV or doing a podcast or doing each other just to become famous you will get lost because when you get that fame you won't know what to do with it yeah you go what's happening And this is why we have a huge problem at the moment with these different things because people gain fame and they don't know what to do with it.

[340] But you have to know where you want to go.

[341] And they didn't know why they wanted it in the first place.

[342] And then actually what you find out, yeah, Steve, is that you realize that actually it's very unfulfilling.

[343] It doesn't bring you happiness and success as much you thought it would do.

[344] And you go, oh shit, everything that was striving towards doesn't really mean anything.

[345] And the anti -climax must be crippling.

[346] Crippling.

[347] And so you've got to know from the beginning what you want to do and where you want to go.

[348] Otherwise you'll get lost.

[349] I think the same applies to, you know, you talked about fame there, but success and wealth generally as well, I think if you don't understand the motivations from day one as to why you were striving to get rich or, you know, build something great.

[350] The day, I remember that, you know, some of the most confusing days of my life were the days when someone came across and said, we'll buy your company for X tens of millions.

[351] And going home, an 18 -year -old Steve showing up, right, in my mind, and being like, let's get that Lambo.

[352] And then going on right move that night, I remember being sat on the bottom floor of my house and going on right move that night, be like, okay, we'll look at mansions.

[353] And then looking at a photo of a mansion and thinking, okay, well, if I live there, that's going to be 45 minutes away from my friends.

[354] There's seven bedrooms of tennis court.

[355] I don't think that's going to make me happy.

[356] Okay, I'll look at Lamborghinis.

[357] Looks at Lamborghinis, black, Ivented all Lamborghini.

[358] That's really, looks really uncomfortable versus like the big four by four I have now and thinking, so why did I do this again?

[359] I know there's a reason, but I don't think I was fully in touch with it, right?

[360] Because I love getting up every day and I'm enjoying this.

[361] But 18 -year -old Steve, who was broke and come from a family that were bankrupt that never had Christmas and birthdays, had somehow told himself that, you know, if you get rich, then your parents might stop arguing, that kind of thing.

[362] But that wasn't the reason why I was doing it.

[363] And so it was success and getting success that made me super self -aware.

[364] And like, why are we doing this every day?

[365] And if you're just going to keep getting more and more successful, what is the purpose of that pursuit?

[366] Where's the finish line?

[367] Exactly.

[368] Because you're going to keep climbing and you're going to get more, you know, more power and more freedom.

[369] and you can't believe that every step up this ladder is going to make you more happy because if you believe that it will make you more miserable and that's the anti -climax point yeah and i think it's and and listen you know we're not i think all three us can agree we're not sitting here and saying you need to know exactly what you're doing right now you can you can start on your journey and understand that you want to create the best sweet possible but you're you've got to learn on your journey that actually you've got to really understand why you're doing this and what you know there's a great story that ed and i heard that again i've mentioned on another podcast i'm sure about a guy who worked for j p morgan i think it was he worked for somebody and only huge amounts of money um and he went on holiday to Thailand he was in thailand and he was sitting on a bus and uh this guy got on and he was like he didn't really want to him to sit next him so he kind of covered up a seat but the guy came and sat next him anyway and he was american guy and he said how are you doing started speaking he said yeah i'm good i'm great he says what'd you do?

[370] He says, oh, I work for J .P. Morgan.

[371] And he said, oh, you must be earning a lot of money.

[372] He said, yeah, I do.

[373] I earn a lot of money, actually.

[374] He said, are you happy?

[375] And he went, I don't really know if I am.

[376] And he said, okay, we'll do the test.

[377] If you were sitting in your rocking chair when you're 90 years old, are you going to be happy with your life?

[378] He said, I don't think I will.

[379] He said, okay, we'll change it.

[380] And he came back from Thailand.

[381] He quit his job there and then, and he set up a company called Change Please, which is a coffee company that is around London different places that it hires homeless people and houses them for a year and serves coffee and it's amazing business and he's happier than ever and actually he realized that his life wasn't about earning cash and those kind of things actually it was about success but success in a different form and his success was helping others and doing something to make a difference and it's so important to realize that from the beginning I think I think true I think it's true for going into any situation really whether that's a business or a relationship or even on a lower level going into you know having a coffee with someone what why am i doing what what's this for what why and and something that we've been talking about recently with our team is every meeting we go into what what's the reason for this meeting because you can just go through life just turning up to stuff sure but not really knowing what the purpose was what you were hoping to get out of it and i think thinking sometimes selfishly what what's in it for me what am i getting out of this is actually something that we are taught all our lives not to be selfish and growing up it's a bad thing to be selfish which on a macro level is true but actually day to day on those little things why do we want to go and do this thing what's the point and if you're not careful you can slip into probably a career of 30 years where you actually think well hang on a minute what happened there none of that was for me so I think yeah knowing what you're doing it and it comes back to that self -awareness point I suppose so key and also I just because I want to mention these guys we were in Germany in something called the ISM the other day, which is we've been there for the last eight years.

[382] It's been eight years, hasn't it?

[383] Ed went there by himself to begin with this amazing story, how you basically go there, you can think of every single sweets and snack.

[384] It's a big conference trade show thing, yeah, confectionery.

[385] It's amazing, and Ed went there.

[386] We've had a sort of a funny journey with our sweets, and Ed went there to look at different suites and find a manufacturer, and came across these guys called Catchers, who were a German company.

[387] I know Catchers.

[388] Yeah, yeah, they're great, right?

[389] And they, for listeners who don't know candy kittens, our brand, they make Percy Picks, which is M &S sweets.

[390] And Ed said to them, oh, look, we want you to make our sweets for it.

[391] And they said, OK, well, your minimum order is 400 ,000 tons a year.

[392] And we just dropped Morrison's.

[393] And we went, okay, well, we're a startup.

[394] This is probably not going to work.

[395] And anyway, what happened then?

[396] So skip to eight years later, they've just bought some of our business and they're making our sweets for us.

[397] And it was an amazing journey from the beginning.

[398] But I met these guys there who lit this year who have a chocolate bar called Tonys.

[399] And they were four Dutch guys who were journalists and they went and checked out the cocoa trade in Africa and saw how horrific it was, saw the child labour that was going on and said, okay, fine, we want to do something about this.

[400] So they wrote an article about it and no one paid any interest to them.

[401] They went, okay, fine.

[402] Well, why don't we set up our own chocolate brand and used the cocoa trade to try and get arrested?

[403] And they didn't get arrested.

[404] so what they did is they set up a chocolate that was completely ethical and their story and how they do it and the uneven road of all these different things and again for them the reason why they did that is because they went okay well this is something that we want to do we want to strive towards it's like with candy kittens we want to do it because we like sweets we're like well this is going to be fun this is going to be great this is going to be exciting and also at the same time we're giving other people pleasure because we're feeding sweets to everyone so for us it was always about doing something that we always want to do and I think that's really important I don't really have to reference what you said earlier because even as an entrepreneur I know that there's I think the outside perception is you know you start a business up you go fame success money it's all wonderful but there's there's a very rocky road to travel to get there and I wanted to know a little bit about your your really really tough times the time is when you know your darkest days in fairness I mean we've had tough times really really tough times and most of them probably are started off and finished with cash and I think that having that cash in the bank is literally your oxygen that keeps the business going but I wouldn't necessarily say they were dark days in that sense because I think that we've always been quite good at kind of managing the emotional part and the way that we're kind of involved in the business emotionally so yeah that's probably been a good thing we don't take life too seriously which definitely helps being an entrepreneur because it's pretty tough but yeah I mean the toughest times I think probably have been days where you look at the bank and you've got no money in there and you've got to pay the wages tomorrow that's pretty horrible we've had days where you've had to go out and get kind of 20 or 30 grand in an hour to kind of keep ourselves going and you just call in every single person you know how does that feel though on those days say days when you look at the bank account is not.

[405] Yeah, it's weird.

[406] I don't actually remember that feeling particularly.

[407] Oh, I do.

[408] I was scary and horrible, but I don't, I don't remember ever really thinking we're done.

[409] I never, never, ever thought this is the end.

[410] This is why it's, you know, very important to have someone.

[411] You know, I think there's something like 73 % of businesses have a co -founder or you have a business partner.

[412] And it's really important to have, um, I personally think it's important to, did you start by yourself?

[413] Were you completely by yourself?

[414] No, I had a co -founder.

[415] You had a co -founder.

[416] Yes.

[417] I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think, it's, It's important to have a co -founder because, firstly, it's a lot of stress.

[418] And to have someone else to do it with is a bit better, even stress.

[419] It's more exciting to be on a journey with somebody else.

[420] It's a bit of a lonely place.

[421] I heard you talk about an interview once where you said that, I think you spoke to Gary Vee, who said, if you want to be super successful, it's going to be very lonely.

[422] And I kind of definitely see that.

[423] So if you have a buddy along the way to do it with, that's quite a fun thing to do.

[424] And again, I think, you know, if you're greedy, then, yeah, you want to take the whole business yourself 100%.

[425] But if you're not, I think it's a great thing.

[426] But Ed has always been this guy who has never worried too much.

[427] I catastrophize.

[428] Oh, my God.

[429] But Ed has always had this level head.

[430] And I think that's really important to have.

[431] And especially when you're running a business, because you need to have in terms, in situations of emergencies or in situations of chaos, you need someone to break through the clouds who can look above like a tell.

[432] scope and say okay no we're going to be all right well you can't you can't worry yourself out of a problem right yeah so it's like okay crap we're in the shit what we can do about it and in this case okay we've run out we need 30 grand by 10 o 'clock okay who do we know that might have four grand five grand okay we're going to call this guy this guy this guy this guy and and you make it work and I think that we've had those are the kind of tough tough times really because it's kind of did your team ever realize probably not probably not probably not I'm quite fascinated by this world that employees never really get to see, which is same for my business, which is total chaos upstairs.

[433] Like with the CEOs and the founders, total chaos, but almost like a blissful ignorance blow.

[434] I find it really hard.

[435] Even just about 12 months ago, we were going through a really, really big kind of negotiation and kind of like top level conversation about the future of the business and what we were going to do in a strategy.

[436] and I came out of a meeting feeling pretty shit and thinking, you know, lots of thoughts going through my mind and just needed to kind of digest it all.

[437] And I got back and I sit on my desk and everybody gets up and having beers in the office and all the fun stuff that we have built and encourage and want people to do.

[438] And they're like, oh, we're going to order some pizzas there.

[439] Do you want anything?

[440] Do you want a beer?

[441] And I was just like, no thanks.

[442] Just put my head down and kind of just like, and that's the loneliness.

[443] That's the loneliness.

[444] That's an emotional.

[445] You just sat there on your own while the whole team are just having fun.

[446] I was thinking if only they knew what we've been talking about Are you sometimes envious of the ignorance to those in a respect You wouldn't trade it I wouldn't trade it but I think sometimes I think shit and I'd love almost the point where I'm like I could almost just tell them that I don't want them having fun right now And you just kind of hold back And you go no okay Is there a part of you that is somewhat Wishes you hadn't Because I think of entrepreneurship is like something that you can't unsee.

[447] And like when you're building a business, you can't unsee your dreams, your ambitions, where you want this to go.

[448] You can't turn that off.

[449] Yeah.

[450] But I wonder this.

[451] I know, I don't think this is true, but I wonder if I would have been more happy if I didn't have the like disease that I have of like, totally.

[452] You know what I mean?

[453] Yeah.

[454] The answer is probably just no, isn't it?

[455] Because you are who you are, right?

[456] Yeah, I'm happy.

[457] Yeah, exactly.

[458] But it's interesting.

[459] And I've actually on the kind of flip side, like that i've got lots of friends who are trying to run their own business so they're they're pursuing entrepreneurial endeavors endeavors and they and actually i look at it and go do you know what you'd probably be better just having a job yes and there's loads of people like that that we meet and you think why are they doing it why are they putting themselves through the pain that we we go through that pain because we believe it's it's right and that's just what's called us there but surely they do too right but i think no but i think actually sometimes people listen to to your podcast They look at your Instagram They look at people like Gary Vee And they go Yeah, that's me I want a bit of that And that's like it's like being the footballer now When I grew up I just I couldn't think of anything more Than wanting to go and play football And be a pro footballer Kids are now growing up going I want to be Gary Vee It's kind of a weird flip Nobody when we were growing up Wanted to be a businessman Or an entrepreneur That word didn't really even exist Because I think it goes back down To that situation now where we turn on Instagram or go on to YouTube and we see everyone drying Lamborghinis or fast cars and we think that generates happiness.

[460] And so we go, well, how are we going to reach that happiness?

[461] We have to become an entrepreneur, set up a business and we get success.

[462] But actually, it's a tough road.

[463] As you said, you know, there is a huge happiness in having security and working in a community where you have a job and you can go to your work every single day and you can switch off at night.

[464] being an entrepreneur and running your own business you can never do that you can never I said this to Ed the other day I said Ed when was last time you think you switched off and he went I don't and I went exactly you can never switch off and yes and what I honestly believe that the majority of entrepreneurs are filling a void within themselves they have something missing within them I don't think Ed actually has I actually just think Ed just quite likes running people just being a leader I think yeah I think yeah just but for for me or I think maybe if you used to there's something that you want to fill and so the reason why a lot of these successful people who people think or entrepreneurs put stuff on social media and things that is because they're trying to constantly create and constantly do and constantly do different things and hey hey and show this and that but actually I think honestly honestly probably for myself you're filling something or you're trying to be validated for something and so that's why we're doing it there is a huge bliss in being part of a huge corporate business and turning up and doing that and leaving work every single day and having your life being an entrepreneur is not all roses and sunshine at all and it's stressful yeah it's very yeah it's actually something that kind of bothers me a little bit in the fact that you know when we have our podcast or we we're bold with stuff like this there's lots of people listening that then perhaps get encouraged to take that path that perhaps didn't didn't need to go down that route and i sort of feel partly a little bit guilty sometimes to think you know it's actually okay you can have a great job and be really happy and enjoy that and there's nothing nothing wrong with that you're going to have probably any much easier life it's going to be okay it's i think there's a balance between sort of giving advice and then yeah and then glamorizing and also there's a real total difference between being an entrepreneur and being a businessman there is such a difference you can be a great entrepreneur but you can be a bad business.

[465] And I think I think personally I'm a good entrepreneur.

[466] I don't think I'm a very good businessman.

[467] I wouldn't be able to, without Ed, there is no way that candy kittens would be a success, not in my wildest dreams.

[468] But I also think on the flip side, Ed, Ed sort of is both he's an entrepreneur and a businessman.

[469] So, but without Ed, without me, there was probably no way that candy kittens could have been.

[470] But you would have seen this as well.

[471] I mean, you guys have now gone public, right?

[472] So presumably you're dealing with people in that world that are very high profile very well respected business of course every investment bank i've just but these are not entrepreneurs they don't they kind of think like no of course not no i mean the finance team typically you do well to find someone in a finance department that is entrepreneurial in their nature they are more it's more like a risk yeah do you find it hard to communicate um with with with individuals who who are in the big corporate banks it's it's it's um it's a lesson i've had to learn over the the last couple of years which is just if you want to succeed with those types of people, you have to know their motivations and what they care about.

[473] And you have to take your like dreamy ambition.

[474] We can do everything.

[475] We're going to take over the world stuff.

[476] And you have to try and filter it through the way they see the world.

[477] So I try and speak their language, even though naturally I'm like you where I'm big, dreamy, like the business would have gone bust if it was just me. Right?

[478] Same with you, Ma.

[479] Same with you ma.

[480] He's told me a million times.

[481] And I try and learn over time how to how to speak in a different language to those people.

[482] Whereas to, you know, on stage.

[483] Yeah, exactly, spreadsheets.

[484] And if I'm talking about culture and buying a slide, now I know to talk about it through the impact of the PNL.

[485] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[486] The positive impact of the PNL.

[487] And like, so we bought a slide in this, in our office, five, six years ago, whenever it was five years ago.

[488] And every major newspaper, BuzzFeed, Vice, Channel 4, gadget show came down.

[489] Vice did a documentary and that stuff.

[490] It's all about the fucking slide.

[491] And so you think about the market.

[492] marketing ROI on that slide, it's like, the BBC had me, like, laying in there the other day.

[493] And everyone comes to the, and it's the, it's like the, and you could not have bought that, but how do you communicate a bit of brand work that is going to have no direct, like, you know, you know, to a finance person.

[494] So that's the skill that I'm learning.

[495] But that's interesting, because that goes back to your naivity as well, the fact that you got that signing because you thought it would be fun and then you get all this press because of it.

[496] But also, I think that, that analogy of the slide is a great story.

[497] because it actually just shows what the culture within a business is so important, what you're creating.

[498] We spoke to an amazing guy called...

[499] It's brand now.

[500] This is the big distinction.

[501] In a world where companies are now glass boxes, where employees can take a Snapchat or an Instagram and show you inside and social media, there's no such thing anymore is internal company culture.

[502] It's just brand.

[503] And so you can tell me the stories of you hearing about Amazon staff pissing in bottles in the warehouse because we're all glass boxes now.

[504] You can tell me you knew about Google's office.

[505] people will know about your office through all of your employees doing beers and pizza and that is part of your brand i think the biggest contradiction in the world would be if i came to candy kitten's office and it was a bunch of like miserable you know sure you yeah yeah totally don't come yeah don't come is it but okay but i but i see but you're i think steve what you your your slide analogy is great because even though you spent 13 000 pounds on building a slide that you probably can afford and don't use and don't use you should still created something within your business that was exciting, fun, energetic, something that you, that was you.

[506] And I think that's really important because even though it cost you a huge amount of money, it represented something much more important.

[507] And I think that's key that you never lost what you were trying to do and what you were trying to show.

[508] You kind of just went, this is what we represent.

[509] But listen, changing subject, the podcast sponsor, which is boost by Facebook.

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[518] And if you do check it out, drop me a message and let me know how you find it.

[519] I always pop on there every now and then to try and make sure I'm staying a head.

[520] head of the curve.

[521] But yeah, do let me know how you find it.

[522] I was really interested in what you said a second ago about you've got a couple of friends who are trying to be entrepreneurs and you know from your perspective that they shouldn't be.

[523] And now to even have that that understanding, it takes a tremendous amount of self -awareness, right?

[524] Almost an impossible amount of self -awareness because the narrative is just keep going, never quit.

[525] You can do anything you say.

[526] But what you're saying is quit.

[527] You're saying you shouldn't do that.

[528] And that's, the counter narrative to all of the messaging out there.

[529] So I guess my question is, how is someone supposed to know when entrepreneurship is not for them?

[530] Not sure I'm intelligent enough to answer.

[531] I think that it's, I think it's so, so difficult, but it does come down to that kind of self -awareness piece.

[532] And I think Jamie mentioned earlier about, you know, people that are sat in a room trying to come up with an idea so that people that say, I want to be an entrepreneur, I just don't know what business is going to be yet.

[533] Yeah, it's the worst.

[534] That's like, well, that doesn't work.

[535] Like, it's like saying, I want to be a professional sportsman, but I just don't know what sport.

[536] Yeah.

[537] But you can't, how?

[538] How is that going to happen?

[539] I think you have to, it comes from those real kind of innate idea, like the ideas within you.

[540] And you genuinely, as you just said, you know, really believe, genuinely believe in.

[541] And also probably the way you're enjoying it and going through the process.

[542] I think some people talk, I talk to people about, you know, so.

[543] We meet people at different events or whatever, and they say, okay, I've got this thing and I want to do, I'm struggling to get hold of the right people to make the business work.

[544] They say, okay, well, what have you tried?

[545] And you said, well, we've sent some emails out, but nobody ever gets back.

[546] Okay, well, that's the point where you should stop now.

[547] That you should now quit.

[548] Yeah.

[549] Because if you just sent an email and somebody hasn't replied and you can't possibly think of any other way to get hold of them, then it's not going to work for you.

[550] But also, Ed made such a good point the other day.

[551] We were talking to a friend of mine who is working for a gin company.

[552] And he said, oh, I'm trying to get hold of waitros and things at the moment.

[553] I can't get hold of them.

[554] How do I get hold of them?

[555] And Ed's sent them email saying, honestly, just go in there.

[556] Go to the headquarters and walk in.

[557] That's what you need to.

[558] You need to have that.

[559] And I think you know when you shouldn't be an entrepreneur if you're not willing to take risks.

[560] And risk is everything.

[561] You've got to put yourself out there and just be willing to do anything and everything to achieve what you want to achieve.

[562] Question to you then.

[563] Yeah.

[564] How does one go from being a non -risk taker?

[565] Because you guys, one of the things that you said you shared, one of your privileges per se was confidence.

[566] Sure.

[567] So if someone's listening to this right now and they are maybe not the most confident person, is there anything they can do to build said confidence?

[568] Yeah.

[569] Different types of confidence there, right, as well?

[570] Because it's not always about saying, I'm confident enough to stand up on a stage and deliver a keynote.

[571] It's also the confidence to say, I really believe this idea can work.

[572] And I don't care what anybody tells me, I've got confidence in my idea.

[573] Or there's confidence in knowing that you're very good at maths and you're going to absolutely kill it and your numbers are always, there's different levels.

[574] And I don't know which one you necessarily need or if you need all of them or maybe one of them to be right.

[575] But confidence is a quite a hard thing to teach, I think, particularly as you get older.

[576] So where did it come from in you though?

[577] What would, can are you, because one of the things that when I look back, you know, there's obviously nature and natural and I'd be somewhat naive to not, you know, pay homage to the presence of those things in my life.

[578] But when I look back at my life, it's doing something and then being like, oh, that was cool.

[579] I didn't know I could do that.

[580] And then taking these small steps that, you know, today, it's almost like a staircase.

[581] You take one step up the staircase and you think, oh, yeah, fuck me, look at me. You take another small step.

[582] For me, it's like public speaking.

[583] I spoke in front of 50 people.

[584] I was shitting myself.

[585] Shaking, couldn't read what was on the thing.

[586] And then the next, you know, 100 people.

[587] And I'm like, oh, my God, fuck.

[588] And then I'm doing fucking 15 ,000 people in Brazil with Obama and I feel the same and I think it's that it's almost like this little staircase and the problem with motivational speakers and shit like that is they tell you to just throw yourself into this like fiery abyss of uncertainty whereas for me the the way to get there is just these tiny fucking steps over a long period of time and that could be make the Instagram account today like come up with a name yeah you know I think that's exactly it I think you've sort of hit the nail on the head there where okay for example if you sort of say to someone so you know So Ed and I and yourself, we were lucky to probably have confidence from the beginning.

[589] We did something, whether it was score a goal in football when we were younger or pick up an instrument or sing once and so, oh my God, that's great.

[590] Go and do here.

[591] And slowly by slowly you build it up like that and that's how you build stuff.

[592] But it's the same way if someone says, I'm going to go start the gym.

[593] You know, don't make these huge dreams that you go, okay, I'm going to have a six pack or whatever by one month's time.

[594] You've got to slowly do a bit by bed.

[595] If you go on a five minute run one day and then do a 12 minute run the next day and then a 30 minute and you build it up like that, that's the one.

[596] way to success and that's the way to building these different things and repeating that repeating that yeah you just have to I think in terms of confidence you have to be willing to work at it like everything and you have to be willing to take this step by step and trying different things whether that is giving a talk in front of five people then doing a talk in front of 10 people you know I um I wanted to stand up comedy for the first time yeah in my life the other day and holy shit it was one of the worst things I've ever had to do um but i went i went and did it and i thought i'll just go and do this i went on stage and it went really well and it was funny everyone laughed i was like this is amazing so i then went okay well i'm gonna go and do this again and i went on stage again and it was one of the worst things i have ever done yeah don't make a joke at the beginning about i made a joke my first i came on pretty confident for the second time and my first joke was as oh i've done stand that comedy before and this is the second time doing it and i got in a taxi coming here and i spoke to the taxi driver said can I practice my routine on you and he went yeah go on lad and he said obviously he spoke like that because he's working class and no one laughed and i went oh my god don't make a joke if you're white privilege and posh in hans but it was this learning and it's the same thing you learn these different things you learn you learn how to get confidence so going back to your question how do you teach on it's about within you if you want to start becoming fit you have to do it yourself if you want to give up alcohol you have to do it yourself if you want to learn to get confidence you have to do it yourself but it's bit by bit and you have to go on that journey yourself no one else can teach you it but that's the big thing right no but not there's only a small amount of people that are willing to put the work in and i suppose then that goes back to the question of how do you know when to quit is are you genuinely really really willing to sacrifice and and give up but i think if you if you start seeing it as a sacrifice that's also part of the problem because i never considered i don't i mean you have obviously made lots of sacrifices to choose to kind of live the life you're living but I don't know do you kind of of course not of course not doesn't go okay well I'm gonna make a decision today I'm gonna sacrifice this thing instead and do that because it always the nature of sacrifice almost makes you believe that you're giving up something you wanted to do more yeah for this but I never wanted to go out and go to tiger tiger in Manchester more than I wanted to sit and build my website so although it's it's a it's almost yeah like it's something people will look at your life and say oh you sacrifice so much I'm like well no, I didn't want to do those other things.

[597] And you can tell what I wanted to do by my actions.

[598] So that's really interesting.

[599] But you're a rarity for sure, because you were 17 when you started, was that right?

[600] 18, I said, yeah.

[601] And that's pretty rare to understand what you want to do at that age.

[602] I said, once I said it again, I think the educational system is completely flawed in lots of different ways.

[603] Because firstly, it drives creativity out of you in lots of different ways.

[604] secondly it's a it's a place where you can't copy cheat you can't collaborate you can't do anything and life is all about collaborating and copying and helping each other and at school does happen and you meant to know exactly what you want to do at the age of 18 years old you meant to know you want to go study this at university and do that and no one fucking knows I didn't know yeah but I think you're weird because I didn't know what the word entrepreneur was until maybe two years after I'd become one like when I when I started out there wasn't this like, you know, like the social network movie and all this, you know, Gary Vee's stuff and all this I was, I was a kid that my favorite game with my brothers was turning my bunk bed into a business and making fake money and passing it to each other.

[605] My mom was always really entrepreneurial, although she never had any money and she failed and she slept on the shop floor of her business every night, never came home in her, in her corner shop.

[606] But I just thought that by 16 years old, I realized that my grades were going to be really, really, really bad.

[607] And that that meant that this narrative of getting good grades and being rich was never going happen for me. And I also think I overvalued money because we never had it.

[608] I think I was like insecure and inadequate.

[609] I'll give you one more layer.

[610] I was the only black kid in a school of 1500 white kids in an area where everyone was middle class, but our house had like six foot grass at the front and smashed windows on the front for a decade and a half.

[611] I felt inadequate.

[612] I was dealing with this complex about me being black and having fluffy hair and all the kids having straight hair.

[613] And it was just like this constant, I need to like, if I'm getting, my parents aren't around either.

[614] So I'm like, if I'm going to get it, I need to get it on my own.

[615] Yeah.

[616] And I definitely want to get it.

[617] And so you had that, you had that hunger driven within you because, uh, you know, your mom was sleeping on the, the shop floor.

[618] And, and, and you, it's crazy.

[619] And you, and you, so you saw, um, what a lot of, what a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of successful people, um, I experienced when the younger is that they experience, um, sort of pretty hard times.

[620] And they, and they, and they can see that what, not what hard work, but where life can lead.

[621] And I suppose what you're saying is that you didn't want to, you didn't want to lead that, you wanted to change your family's life and, and build it like that.

[622] And that comes from a place.

[623] So even though you didn't know what you wanted to do, you knew where you didn't want to be.

[624] Yeah.

[625] And so that's, but that's even better, right?

[626] That's actually, so for, I suppose for Ed and I, and a lot of people listening, they're 18 years old, they, they probably didn't experience the same things that you experienced and probably have you know they probably go on nice holidays and they probably do different things and so like my friend that i mentioned earlier um you know his dad's a billionaire but he he experienced the exact same thing but in a because it's all it is is an emotional feeling and that emotional feeling can arrive from say your dad being a billionaire and you feeling like you're always in his shadow and that you can get the same thing the same motivation in the same drive there's this huge misconception amongst like entrepreneurs that we're all on fucking playground selling fags at 12 years old and we're all like wheeling but the emotional feeling can come from any circumstance it can come from like female rejection it can come from you know it's just that feeling of inadequacy or or independence you know so i totally i i totally hear what you're saying i i think that's so funny there is that there is that kind of misconception again where when you know you ask when did you start your first business and i always say oh i make i didn't make it up but I said oh I picked heads off my daffodils of my mom's daffodils I don't think it I don't think it happens that it gets to a place like you said where you wanted to build something for the reason you know Ed and I when did it is because we we were more excited about the prospect of building candy kittens than actually going and working for a corporate business I think that's sort of an example of life doesn't really play out like a like a movie so you think it does so you go and I'm like oh shit what was my first business like shit how did I because everybody expects that kind of Disney fairy tale entrepreneur story but it's not always there so like yeah I was washing my dad's car and getting a couple of quid for it but that wasn't a business but it was probably something that led to work hard get money work harder get more money and and it it did turn into a bit of business but yeah it's just I guess it doesn't always play out it plays out definitely for everybody It's so important because, again, that's empowering to a lot of people who can't think of, you know, them selling fags on the playground at 12 years old.

[627] And the narrative is that if you weren't doing that, then maybe you're not cut out for it in some respect.

[628] But the entrepreneurs that I've met on this podcast alone are so diverse in their upbringings.

[629] They are introverts.

[630] And again, that breaks the narrative because apparently all entrepreneurs are these fucking wacky, wacky, you know, super confident people.

[631] They are introverts that have remote teams and have built businesses that are making hundreds of millions.

[632] They are sometimes extroverts.

[633] They are sometimes the, you know, the people like me and probably a little bit like yourself, Jamie and Gary, who are, you know, much more sort of externally confident and they come in different shapes and sizes.

[634] I think that the question that I wanted to pose to you guys is we've done a lot of, I guess, looking backwards.

[635] Yeah.

[636] And like looking at now, but what is, what is it that you guys are playing for?

[637] Like, why did you get up every day now?

[638] And what's the, where is this going over the next couple of years of your life?

[639] Yeah, it's a tough one.

[640] Take this one, buddy.

[641] I think that for me I want to continue to build the best possible business we can build and when we started we really had ambitions of going out there and kind of knocking Harry Bow off their perch and going okay let's really properly challenge your market we're now the fastest growing manufacturing company in the UK but beyond that where we're still got a long long way to go isn't that nuts then it's crazy a packet of candy can and sweets has bought every 12 seconds is yeah i mean maybe is that wrong have i just lied that sounds interesting yeah it is we look at how i just totally lied about that the stats in the office of the day and we're selling more in the we were selling more things than like major brands like skittles we're growing quicker than skittles we're going quicker than a whole heap of brands and these are these are kind of like household names that we grew up with that we're then going toe to toe with and challenging which is fun so that i think is great but we want to do that properly on a kind of global stage.

[642] Personally, I think it's about that kind of sense of achievement inside yourself to say, yeah, okay, I'm really proud of that.

[643] Really, really happy with what we've done.

[644] Nothing makes me more happy than building the team.

[645] And I think seeing the team grow and go on to do amazing things, we employ some great people, some really talented people, people that have come through our internship program and end up being then kind of senior managers in the team is really fun.

[646] How does it feel like when they quit?

[647] Um, I've probably only had, we probably only have one person quit that I was, that I was upset about.

[648] And how, talk me through that feeling?

[649] You find out you get that email or whatever, you get there, you have a chat and they're going elsewhere.

[650] How does that feel?

[651] I think it's, it's quite upsetting.

[652] But actually, in this case, she would have to go and start our own business and do something else.

[653] And I think that was, that was kind of cool as well, because you think, okay, well, she's kind of been a part of what we're doing, um, in some way perhaps has learned from us and being inspired by what, what's happening within these walls.

[654] so actually that's kind of cool.

[655] She can go and do her own thing.

[656] She leaves to go to a competitor or leaves to go somewhere else.

[657] Then I don't really get upset about it.

[658] I say, okay, cool.

[659] Go and do you do your thing.

[660] Interesting question.

[661] And I'm going to ask you both in isolation so you have to answer separately.

[662] Jamie, how would you feel if Ed turned around tomorrow and said, I'm quitting?

[663] I said, like, I don't want to do this anymore.

[664] I'm going to sell my steak, whatever, to this guy, and I'm going to leave and I'm going somewhere else.

[665] I would, in all honest, I'd probably feel quite, let down um i would because i think that i think there's a i think persistency in is a really big thing and you kind of if you go into something you kind of got to stick at it and go for it so yeah i would probably feel um i probably feel let down because uh you know i for ed i have not been an easy journey for him you know i i started a tv show i was doing lots of different things and he had to build, run the business while I was, oh, ha, and I'm like that on bad days.

[666] So, but I think at the same time, when you go into something together, you kind of have to stick at it and you kind of got to do it together and you go on this journey together.

[667] And I get that people change their opinions and change their minds and different things, but you kind of want to stick things out.

[668] And how would work feel the next day?

[669] So Ed's gone, are you getting to the office?

[670] It would like to be going into a cockpit and a cockpit and trying to land a plane.

[671] I'd have no freaking clue what is going on.

[672] So it would be pretty damn scary for me You know, Ed and I, as Ed said at the beginning We are two very different people But we're similar in lots of different ways And we have the same aim And we complement each other in loads of different ways Would you feel like a bit of your sense of purpose As to why you were doing this was gone?

[673] I would probably I would feel inadequate to do it I don't think I would not be the right person to run it It's you know when you're building a business It's very important to hire people who are better than you in so many different ways and it's very important to hire people who do the job better than you um and ed does the job far better than me than every single way so it would be a tricky scenario because i don't know how to find another ed and that would be a very hard task to do so i would probably um is he about to tell me is that the whole point of this this is like a very second i would i would feel i would feel scared i would feel worried but i would with everything you just got to push on and you've got to achieve what you've got to achieve and you just got to go through it you know and that's what I think what about you Ed tell him tell me the truth so we set this up today yeah I think it's tough I think that there's this kind of old adage that everybody in a business is replaceable but I think actually in our case that the relationship that Jamie has to the business and the relationship that Jamie and I have, Jamie has made himself very, very difficult to replace.

[674] It's so synonymous with the brand and kind of such a sort of bedrock to what we're about.

[675] I think it's probably safe to say that candy kittens wouldn't be candy kittens without Jamie's energy and personality and everything that he gives to it.

[676] So, yeah, it would be very tough.

[677] I think that we would have to seriously consider kind of how the business would move forward from that point.

[678] We've got to an amazing stage.

[679] Putting that to one side, we got to an amazing stage.

[680] And from day one, we were kind of keen to make sure that Candy Kitten stood on its own two feet as a brand.

[681] And there's lots of places now, you know, we sell in the States where people don't know who Jamie is and we've got, we're building the brand there based on the fact that it's a really good product.

[682] But it would be tough.

[683] And I think that, as Jamie says, it would be that kind of sense of being let down and thinking, okay, if he quits, then what am I still doing here?

[684] Why is what is he seeing that I can't see?

[685] Or what am I looking at a goal and the potential that just isn't there anymore?

[686] So yeah, I would feel a little bit disappointed, I think.

[687] Let's go back to that question about the future then.

[688] So the future of kittens and where you want to go with this and where you're...

[689] I think probably for both of us, I think that at the beginning we want to establish ourselves as the leading confectory brand in the UK that's what we want to do and we still have that aim we're a British brand we want to continue to do that but I think that you kind of in terms of the future you don't really want to give yourself boundaries you kind of want to just go you want to aim for the stars and try to reach it.

[690] It's the answer you don't know I think for us we just I think you know Ed and I if we are totally honest with ourselves will we be selling sweets for the rest of our lives you know and we always say the same thing you know if we had gone and sold socks we would probably be doing the same thing you know we we actually don't make the sweets a German company catches make the sweets for us but what we what Ed is and the team is and I am we're good at is we're good at building brands and I think for us we will constantly whether it's candy kids or something else we'll constantly build brands and we'll constantly start things and build things and create things I think creativity is the most important thing in life and I think that's what we will constantly be doing whether that's candy kitchens or something else and you don't know how long that you know that could be three years five years 10 years could be you know just depends how i mean i think the goalposts keep moving further away for us sure we thought okay when we get our first supermarket we will have smashed it and then you get that one and you want the next five supermarkets and then you get those supermarkets in different country and then you and you keep going and it just those goalposts keep moving further and further away but i think i'm okay with that as long as i keep enjoying it as long as we keep having fun um and we we'll still be chipping away.

[691] And this is my last question before the last one.

[692] Money, you talked about catchers coming in and buying some of your company out.

[693] I'm guessing that was they bought your equity.

[694] Yeah, we're rich.

[695] We're really rich now.

[696] See you later.

[697] This was in fact, this podcast was to announce to your employees.

[698] Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're off.

[699] We're billionaires.

[700] We're really excited about it.

[701] No, catches came in.

[702] They bought out, I can say this kind of, yeah.

[703] Yeah, they bought out the minority shareholders.

[704] Okay.

[705] So Ed and I are still in very much.

[706] Sure.

[707] We're still there.

[708] We just wanted to team up with someone that, again, we've built the business a very long way.

[709] But I think we know exactly what we want to do and we continue doing what we want to do.

[710] But to have someone on board who are a manufacturer is really important.

[711] And that's what the German company catchers do for us.

[712] They make amazing sweets.

[713] But you haven't got a payout per se yourself yet because they brought out the minority.

[714] Same in my company.

[715] They brought out the minority shareholders.

[716] Yeah.

[717] So we're still kind of disband.

[718] working away.

[719] And I think that what's amazing for us is that we've suddenly got this startup world that we're in and we've got a young team, lots of naivety, energy, creativity and everything that comes with it.

[720] And then on the other side of the coin is this huge German company that's over 100 years old and they're generating hundreds of millions in revenue, owning companies across the globe, real kind of corporate mentality.

[721] And those two worlds kind of collide in a really nice way for us.

[722] So we're able to work with them, learn everything that they have to offer.

[723] And ultimately, the reason we kind of went and made the partnership happen was because we really believed in them.

[724] And they were just a great bunch of people.

[725] It's still family -owned organization.

[726] And although it's this huge thing, they share a lot of our kind of mentality and ethos.

[727] So, yeah, really nice way.

[728] You know 53 % of German businesses are still family run?

[729] Really?

[730] It's amazing.

[731] And in the UK, what we do is we think, okay, we'll build this and sell it.

[732] Build it now sell it.

[733] And actually it's a really, the Germans are amazing because it's not about being cash rich.

[734] What it's it about is having generational wealth in terms of building for your family and for your family's family and for your family's family and it's about building family.

[735] Passing it on.

[736] And they never sell.

[737] They never sell.

[738] And in the UK, we think we are incredibly selfish and we go, okay, we're going to make the money.

[739] And that's why we have something called the third generation curse, which his grandfather makes it.

[740] father sustains it and then son loses it because they don't do anything and it happens over and over again and generally it doesn't happen because it's all about keeping it within the family very mafia of them but it's a good way to to be and it's an important way to be as as founders that are yet to take cash off the table what do you does that does that play on your mind as you're getting older you're signing families and those kinds of things and do you do you think i would like to take some cash off the table at some point.

[741] Well, I think, listen, there was an interesting statistic came out later day.

[742] The happiest people earn $72 ,000 a year.

[743] Those are this peak of happiness because anything that you earn less, you want more and anything after that actually is more problematic.

[744] You don't really have to earn that much money in order to be super happy.

[745] What cash brings you is a bigger house and a faster car and nicer holidays, pretty much.

[746] That's what it brings you.

[747] But it's interesting because Because we're actually talking about this with the German guys.

[748] And they were explaining that if you, every increment you get a salary increase up until about, say, 50 ,000, there's a level, call it 50 ,000.

[749] Sure.

[750] Every time you get a salary increase, it has a real benefit to your life.

[751] So you can suddenly rent a nicer flat.

[752] You can do this.

[753] You can do this.

[754] And then when you get to like 50 ,000 pounds, say, there's nothing that you can do differently to the guy earning a million pounds at year.

[755] because, okay, and he gave an example, this is the owner of the business in Germany, he said, okay, well, I'm going on holiday this year to Cuba with my family.

[756] Okay, cool, I'm going to fly probably first class and I'm going to do some nice things and we're there and nice to tell, but you could still go to holiday, you could go on holiday in Cuba, you just get a different plane to me and maybe you're saying, but the core experience is still the same.

[757] Yeah.

[758] You can still live in London.

[759] You can still do this.

[760] You can do, so what you do with your life is the same.

[761] So there's a massive void, as Jamie's then saying, the more money you earn, more money, more problems, you get to a point where actually that doesn't benefit you so i don't know for us i think we want to get to a point where life is sustainable and i think as an entrepreneur if you are not able to kind of do the things you want to do in terms of having a family or i got married last year these kind of things you you're then sacrificing a little bit maybe too much it's going to make your business really difficult to run so that's if that's causing you financial stress and anxiety and and trouble outside of your day -to -day life then you're going to probably be a worst person in the business and you can see the value you've created and it needs to be a balance and we were taught from the very early stage of candy kittens to pay ourselves a uh a reasonable salary um i remember going into a meeting and then kind of putting out on the table with our um our board of directors kind of what we thought we wanted to earn and being quite punchy and saying okay well we want to earn that and it was like it was silly it was like 18 grand a year because we thought okay well we can that's enough to pay our wage i'll pay our bills and we can survive on that and it'll make the business work and they were like no no you guys need to pay yourself a proper salary because otherwise you're going to be resentful and you're not going to be working properly and you're going to be scraping around for cash so so yeah there's a balance but I don't feel desperate to take cash off the table I think there's a lot we still want to do and we're in it for the long run my last question then you mentioned marriage I always I'm always intrigued by the impact that the entrepreneurial pursuit has on romantic relationships for entrepreneurs And I know you're in a relationship, Jamie.

[762] You're married now.

[763] What impact has being an entrepreneur, running a business and being obsessed with your own, with Candy Kittins had on your relationships?

[764] I think actually probably in the early days of my relationship with Charlotte, it was probably the thing that drew us closer together because it gave me an escape, gave me something else to think about.

[765] She did.

[766] She gave me something else to think about and focus on.

[767] I thought you meant Kandikins gave me an escape from Charlotte.

[768] I'm in trouble.

[769] Totally different.

[770] No, but actually, you know, not sitting in the office at 11 o 'clock at night and just getting a takeaway.

[771] I actually had somebody to go and see or go and go out for dinner with or whatever.

[772] So that was quite a positive thing.

[773] She also runs her own business.

[774] So in my case, I'm very lucky.

[775] We spend a lot of time talking about each other's work.

[776] So that kind of works well.

[777] I think it's finding the balance though and also knowing when to switch off and we've sort of seemed so far to be able to do that.

[778] Yeah, and I think, I think sort of the same.

[779] I think it's about, I think it's really healthy and a good appetite to have is when you lead two different lives and you lead different lives and you kind of come together as one.

[780] I think for my, I've had a sort of checkered pass in terms of relationships and that's for lots of different reasons but I think now I'm in a relationship where we kind of, value each other immensely and understand and appreciate each other.

[781] And I think it's just about balance.

[782] I think balance in life is really important.

[783] Are you easy to date?

[784] God, I was thinking about this the other day.

[785] I think I'm, I don't know.

[786] I think I am and I'm not.

[787] Why aren't you?

[788] Because I'm hectic.

[789] I think I'm hectic.

[790] I'm a really good in relation.

[791] So I would consider myself fun and loving and all those different things.

[792] I've had to learn to not be so selfish and actually there are other people who you need to appreciate and love and different things I think compromise yeah compromise I think for a lot of my 20s most of my 20s it was all about what pleased me and then you realize actually it's not about what pleases is what how about pleasing others and I think that's what I probably had to learn a lot but I think it's a it's about having a healthy balance between work life and relationship life.

[793] Because at the end of the day, if you don't have family and love, I said this before, the meaning of life is really to love, I think, and it sounds super cheesy.

[794] But I think it is.

[795] And, you know, when you're old, you're just going to want your homie next to you, and that's pretty much it.

[796] You don't really care about anything else.

[797] The last point I always say on this podcast is just about my little dinner party song and dance.

[798] I don't know if you've had this before, but I tell the guests that they can pick if they were to have a dinner party today at this very table, and you could invite four guests, Dead Are Alive, who would you invite?

[799] So I'm going to let you invite two guests each and just explain why you'd invite those two people.

[800] Dead or Alive, anybody you want?

[801] Oh, God.

[802] And also what we're going to eat?

[803] Okay, I would probably go for, I'd have to go for an adventurer.

[804] So I'd probably go for Shackleton.

[805] Wow.

[806] Shackleton would be great just because he had a leader.

[807] Oh my, what a leader and the things he did and the things he saw.

[808] So I'd go for someone like him in terms of a leader.

[809] And in terms of someone entertaining, I would probably go for someone like, I think Elvis would be quite cool just because of what he stood for what he did but also why it tumbled so badly towards the end when you have that much success and that much fame and all the different things and everyone what they want to achieve and why they want to achieve it why does it go wrong what happened was it unfulfilling and I don't want to find out quite depressing but that would have a starter would have a barata delightful you can pick the main then I yeah okay cool I Italian theme as well, actually.

[810] It's already sort of in my mind.

[811] So I would go for Muhammad Ali.

[812] Nice.

[813] Because I just think he's super cool.

[814] I watched the Will Smith Arby film the other day.

[815] Again, one of my favorites.

[816] I just think that...

[817] Never seen it?

[818] Oh, so cool.

[819] Is it great?

[820] Just insane.

[821] I need to do that.

[822] Homework for you, Jamie.

[823] I was watching Bruno last night.

[824] Isn't that?

[825] A bit more highbrow.

[826] So yeah, I think he just, the experiences he's gone through and the, the challenges he faced, but also super entertaining and fun, I'd imagine.

[827] And just the guts to say, do you know what, I'm going to give up my whole career because I don't want to go to war.

[828] Yeah.

[829] And being willing to go to jail and all those things.

[830] It's crazy, crazy.

[831] But just so quickwitted and away with words and be a real kind of capture the whole nation.

[832] And similar sort of vein, actually, Obama, I think would be pretty cool.

[833] I mean, you look at this kind of state.

[834] politics kind of globally at the moment and um somebody like trump in power i just think that's it's just you can't get your head around how they've gone from like one of the greatest spokesman spokespeople of all time to then go to and and you know whether you not you agree with like the the details of obama's policies and politics but actually just to be that great spokesman and such a great ambassador for a country and then you just go to don't Donald Trump.

[835] It's just like, how did that happen?

[836] But those two, I think, would be pretty cool.

[837] And what are we eating?

[838] We're going to eat Nocky, which I just love.

[839] So simple.

[840] What?

[841] That heavy, heavy, heavy pasta.

[842] Yeah, you sound like my wife now.

[843] What?

[844] Because I've never allowed it at home, so that's why.

[845] Yoki.

[846] I'm never allowed.

[847] I have everything we could have had.

[848] We're having barata than yoki.

[849] I'll let you guys sell on that later.

[850] Thank you so much for giving me your time today.

[851] It's an absolute pleasure.

[852] Cheers, but.

[853] I'm super excited to watch the future of candy kittens unfold.

[854] It's an incredible brand.

[855] And, yeah, every time I get on the flight, every single time I see it.

[856] And it's my somewhat innocent or guilty pleasure, however you want to look at it.

[857] But I want to say thank you as well because you've created something that makes my flights a lot more pleasant to New York.

[858] So thanks.

[859] Thanks, buddy.

[860] Appreciate it.

[861] Thank you.

[862] Thank you so much.