S4 E4: We Will Kill You

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences.

[11] Many episodes discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional and physical abuse, suicide, and murder.

[12] Please take caution when listening.

[13] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[14] Opinions expressed by guests of the show do not necessarily represent the views of this podcast.

[15] If you or someone you know is being abused, please contact the National Department.

[16] Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[17] If you or someone you love is experiencing a suicidal crisis or thoughts of suicide, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[18] Thank you.

[19] I'd like to dedicate this episode to my baby brother Bobby.

[20] He was murdered eight years ago today.

[21] In his memory at the end of this episode, there's a cover song I performed with one of my best friends, Isaac, a few years back.

[22] The song is by Death Cab for Cutie, one of Bobby and I's favorite bands that we bonded over.

[23] I will love and miss him forever.

[24] A quick note, the formatting of season four is slightly different due to the unique nature of the story, interviews, and historical significance of the People's Temple and the murders at Jonestown.

[25] In order to shed more light on the Bogue family story as a whole, narration based on and including content from books, essays, media coverage, and FBI documentation will be included to further round out the story, provide background information, and explain the context of some interviews.

[26] Additionally, it's sometimes easier for trauma survivors to write about specific parts of their story, and that is okay.

[27] I respect that not all survivors want to verbally record all aspects of their experience, and the last thing I ever want to do is re -traumatize anyone.

[28] It is truly an honor and a privilege to get to tell these stories.

[29] P .S. You may notice a tapping sound in some of today's recordings.

[30] Not to worry, the bog men just like to emphasize when they talk.

[31] Thank you, friends.

[32] The once good reputation of the People's Temple Church began its downfall as defectors left and started sharing their stories with the media in the mid -1970s.

[33] Because of this, Jim Jones was motivated to isolate members further by moving them from California to Guyana in South America.

[34] The group's new compound was sold to members as a magical utopia of equality and good works, an opportunity for members to start over and rebuild their lives from the ground up.

[35] Defectors taking a stand and leaving the people's temple impacted families like the Bogues, who saw both the bravery of the people escaping and yet the backlash of the abuse of the people.

[36] those who tried to escape.

[37] The messaging to rank and file members of the church was clear.

[38] Those who leave will be punished.

[39] This further tightened Jones grip on members both emotionally and physically.

[40] A few People's Temple members died under suspicious circumstances after defecting from the church.

[41] Tom and Jim both spoke with me about a principal church member, Bob Houston, who was found dead in a suspect train yard incident in 1976, two years before the massacre at Jones Town.

[42] I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is.

[43] Something was wrong.

[44] You think you know me, you don't know me away at home.

[45] Thinking of me, you don't know me, where.

[46] Of course, by then, some other people already died who left here in the States.

[47] That had defected, and mysteriously, they'd come up dead.

[48] But Jones would prophesy it.

[49] Oh, they should have never left.

[50] You know, I see them.

[51] They're getting gunned.

[52] down in the street.

[53] Oh, they should come back to the father.

[54] They should come back to the house.

[55] You know, and it's just like, and then a few days later you hear they got shot down on the street.

[56] Coincidence?

[57] Really.

[58] There was Chris Lewis.

[59] Okay.

[60] And he grew up in the streets.

[61] And he was, I'm just guessing at his age, you know, considering my age, I was young, you know.

[62] And I figure he was probably in his mid -30s.

[63] So he'd grown up in the streets all of his life.

[64] But the moment he defects from the church, somehow he gets gunned down in the streets.

[65] Then he had Bob Houston.

[66] Now, here's a gentleman who, I don't know just how many years, had worked for the railroad, but many years, many, many years, you know, definitely journey level.

[67] But somehow, after he left, Jones saw him having an accident at the train yard.

[68] And next thing you knew, yeah, somehow he'd got stuck between two cars crushed as they were backing one train up to another.

[69] It's like, hey, do you think this guy didn't know to stay out of the way?

[70] So, but that was a direct message to people.

[71] We will kill you.

[72] So that was a very, so basically some of the others who did defect, they didn't stay local.

[73] They flat out disappeared for many, many years.

[74] Bob Houston, he was in San Francisco there somewhere, but he was killed in the train yards.

[75] They said it was a suicide, but we know it wasn't.

[76] I'm Dan Tversky.

[77] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[78] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[79] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[80] She's like, I can't.

[81] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[82] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[83] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[84] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[85] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[86] Yeah, yeah.

[87] Well, yeah.

[88] No, it's hysteria.

[89] It's all in your head.

[90] It's not physical.

[91] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[92] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[93] Or is it something else entirely?

[94] Something's wrong here.

[95] Something's not right.

[96] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[97] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[98] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[99] You can binge all episodes of Histerical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[100] scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[101] I'm Sachi Cole.

[102] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[103] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[104] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills and action.

[105] active lawsuit followed by Larry King and no real product to push.

[106] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[107] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[108] Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[109] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[110] As punishment for trying to run away from the People's Temple Church with his best friend Brian Davis, Tom was kept in isolation for two weeks and then escorted by Jim Jones himself to the jungles of Guyana at the age of 15.

[111] Tom and Jim hadn't seen each other in over two years.

[112] Based on her interviews she did with Tom and Jim, Julia Shears wrote about Tommy's arrival to Jonestown in her book A Thousand Lives.

[113] On the day Tommy arrived at Jones Town in July 1976, Jim Bogue heard the tractor laboring up the muddy road before he saw it and reluctantly stopped working.

[114] Jones was expected.

[115] Everyone but Bogue was a flush with excitement.

[116] As farm manager, it was his job to debrief the leader on food production and as he walked down a pathway toward the central area in his rubber boots, he ticked over the points he wanted to make.

[117] He lined up beside the road with the others, cheering with them as the tractor lumbered into view.

[118] Bogue composed his face into flat lines, hoping Jones wouldn't detect his low -simmering anger.

[119] He could hardly bear to glance at the newcomers jumping down from the trailer behind Jones, but the bubble of hope he knew would only hurt him rose in his chest anyway.

[120] His eyes were drawn to a slight figure balancing a duffel bag on his shoulder, a boy, a teenage boy.

[121] The kid was staring at him, a wide grin, spreading over his face.

[122] It was Tommy, his son, filled out and groan some, a scraggle of fuzz on his upper lip.

[123] Fifteen now, almost a man. Two years Jones had stolen from them.

[124] Jones and the others stood back and watched the father -son reunion in smug unison.

[125] They kept Tommy's arrival a secret from him, like so many other things.

[126] But it didn't matter now.

[127] His family was being returned to him.

[128] Of course, that was one of my happy days of my life.

[129] You know, I couldn't believe that he was really there.

[130] Tom had a way of being in trouble from the word go.

[131] I mean, he was constantly...

[132] Did it make you nervous for him?

[133] Yeah.

[134] Me and Brian Davis had ran away.

[135] Me and him were in so much trouble.

[136] You know, from nearly the beginning, all the way to the time they shipped me to South America.

[137] But a couple of years later, they said, him and again I was even in trouble all the time down there okay so he shows up and within about six months or so they said they're going to put him in charge of me as as to watch over me on one of my disciplines okay me and him were you know and at first we were a little on guard with each other he didn't know if I had changed since last time we saw each other I didn't know if he had and so but it didn't take as long to figure it out we were still on the same page and once you figured out I was just like how stupid are these people We remember talking about that.

[138] How's stupid of that?

[139] You know, he's like, they actually put me in charge of you.

[140] You know, I know, I know, they put you in charge of me. You know, and we devised this whole plan to run away again.

[141] And we did.

[142] And that's how we ended up with scars on our ankles from having shackles welded on our ankles to each other.

[143] Because one, he's like I, and we didn't want to be part of this on any level anyway.

[144] He wanted to go back to his mom's.

[145] I believe she lived in Santerville or Marin or something like that.

[146] And I just wanted to get the hell out of there.

[147] But we decided that we were going to walk back.

[148] Over 3 ,000 miles, we're going to walk.

[149] We're going to go through the jungle.

[150] We don't care.

[151] We're going to take our cutlasses and go.

[152] And before he had showed up, I'd been working out, working a lot with the local Indians.

[153] So they taught me a lot about survival in the bush, you know, what you can eat, how you can get it, and all this other stuff, right?

[154] I could have done quite well.

[155] So anyway, we came up with this plan that since he was in charge of me, we were going to go out to the woods to collect wood for a forest.

[156] fire for the fire in the kitchen right so we had actually put inside these big gunny sacks our supplies we take off across the field we each have a cutlass which is like a three foot long knife used for going through the bush and it's a very good survival tool he's telling me run hurry up let's go let's go run run you know like like he's supposed to do and and i remember and i remember as as people are thinking that he's making me run across this field like he's just being hard on me almost with pride in her face and a couple of them laughing and stuff like, oh, look, he's making him run.

[157] He deserves it, right?

[158] And as soon as we get past the into the jungle, get past the woodrow area, which is transitioning from the open field into the actual jungle, we stop, we break up our gear, and we start leaving.

[159] We're out of there.

[160] And ultimately our plan was going to be was to get to Matthews Ridge, where we were going to contact, because there's a military base there, a small contingent, and we were going to contact them to the U .S. consulate in Georgetown, Guyana, and get out of there.

[161] Pretty much she stayed in the jungle for the first couple hours, then we came out on the road, and we heard the tractor coming.

[162] It was getting to beat nightfall, so we hid behind this little hill that this road went between.

[163] And after they passes up, we thought we were going to be clear, you know, at least until we could hear them again.

[164] So we started walking again, and it sure as hell they caught us from both sides and took us back.

[165] Oh, they were discussing all kinds of punishment within the meeting.

[166] Because we were being made an example of, too.

[167] So we're in front of everybody.

[168] They were just discussing everything from just beating us down to actually shooting us in the stomachs with wet cardboard with a shotgun.

[169] And so they decided that they were going to chain and shackle us together and make us work 18 hours a day hard labor.

[170] So that's exactly what they did.

[171] We went out to the warehouse.

[172] And they had made these shackles with chains.

[173] to put between us and they welded them on our legs and then they dip our feet in a bucket of water to cool down the metal which actually would burn our skin and it actually made deep wounds on both our ankles I still have that scar to this day although it's not nearly as as easily seen but no that scar is still there so then they welled out on and yes we had to work 18 hours a day but you know there's there's one thing even while they were doing that that I didn't come to appreciate until the next evening when we got done with our first time, first shift.

[174] How do you change your clothes?

[175] You don't.

[176] Nope.

[177] So our clothes got washed every day because that's the only way we could wash. So yes, we had to go out there and work 18 hours a day, cutting them with this log and everything.

[178] It was a huge log, probably about three foot around.

[179] And they had somebody supervising us with a shotgun.

[180] And they put this one guy, I don't know, he was probably, 17 and 18 himself watching over us and his knucklehead hadn't even been trained with a firearm in any sense of the word so he's sitting there bouncing it on the ground because he's bored right and sure as hell about the third bounce it goes off he shoot himself no no he came close though he came close he probably came within 12 inches or less of his face and we're talking turn I go, well, that answers one question.

[181] It's loaded.

[182] So, yeah, they came out there.

[183] He actually ended up on a disciplined crew himself over it.

[184] And then they put somebody older with the shotgun watchovers after that.

[185] But I can't say this also.

[186] During that time, we ate the best of anybody there.

[187] And that was Jim Jones's wife who made sure of that.

[188] Marshaling.

[189] Because it's like, you know, you can't have these kids working like this and not giving them the food to do it with.

[190] you'll kill them.

[191] So anyway, so yes, we ate better.

[192] We're probably the only ones that actually got eggs and meat.

[193] And so we were the initial two that formed the discipline crew, which grew later.

[194] When the actual discipline crew or the work crew, whatever we want to call it, began to grow, the hours shortened.

[195] But so I remember about two weeks in, we were cutting the wood up in the firewood, splitting it.

[196] And Brian was holding the mall, the splitting mall.

[197] on top of one of the logs and he's like dude he goes well we we used terms like dude back then but he he was like he he was like tom he goes hit my thumb i was like what he goes i'm gonna put my thumb on the mall hit it with the sledgehammer right i'm like no i'm like it'll bust your thumb and he goes i just need a break i just need a break right he goes just be careful i'm like okay We're swinging a five -pound sledgehammer at a splitting mall to split this hard wood.

[198] And he wants me to be careful on how I hit his thumb, totally desperate.

[199] And I thought it was absolutely insane.

[200] But then he got so desperate with it, I actually went to do it.

[201] I actually did it.

[202] He stuck his thumb up there.

[203] I brought that mall over my head.

[204] But by the grace of God, all I did was break the skin.

[205] Did he get a break?

[206] Oh, yeah, we got a break.

[207] So they didn't unchain you even after that?

[208] Oh, no. Oh, no. Did not unchain us.

[209] Oh, and we had big sores on our ankles now.

[210] Yes.

[211] I mean, there were probably the sores on our ankles where we had been welded.

[212] We're probably silver dollar size at this point.

[213] And so now we go to the nurses station, okay, because, you know, they take us there because his thumb's been hit, right?

[214] And while we're in there getting treated, Stephen Jones walks in, and he saw it, and he tells the nurse, keep him here, I'll be back.

[215] Because Stephen was nothing like his father.

[216] Stephen actually cared about people.

[217] He was like the big brother of our generation.

[218] He really did his best to look after us.

[219] So anyway, he goes and gets his mother.

[220] She comes over there and she looks, and then she tells them the same thing.

[221] Keep them here.

[222] And then she leaves, and then she comes back, and she says, Jim said to take, our father said to take the shackles off.

[223] Yeah.

[224] So they used air -driven cutting wheels to take them off.

[225] Oh, yeah.

[226] Yeah, so we got, you know, another burden with that, right?

[227] But at least they got them off.

[228] So from that point, yeah, it probably took four months to heal up.

[229] So after those came off, then we, you know, we went back to splitting with.

[230] And as other kids got in trouble, whatever else, they were.

[231] were assigned to the learning crew also and then they put this real sadist in charge of us Sebastian seven years older than us eight years older than us and he was uh he was a black belt and he had this this thick stick hardwood stick probably about six feet tall that he'd stuck rubber shielding on both ends probably about a quarter inch thick and so if you weren't doing what you were supposed to do he'd crack you with that stick some kids got totally knocked down got beat pretty bad over his stick he went to whack Brian once at once and honestly by after we had gone through Brian just looked at him I was like that's all you got because he really had nothing left yeah he'd just about taking his knee out from the backside and all and all and I don't even remember seeing Brian's face wins all he did was just fall back, just got back up, like nothing happened.

[232] Almost as though he'd just trip.

[233] Did you ever dare fight back?

[234] Oh, hell no. Because you have nothing and this guy's got a giant stick.

[235] Well, not only that, but it's pointless.

[236] It's not a battle you're going to win.

[237] I mean, we learned that lesson when we were still in San Francisco.

[238] Oh, when I was about 13, 14 years old, when I'd gotten in trouble.

[239] And back then, it was boxing.

[240] And they would take somebody who they felt could just, you know, take you down.

[241] And they put me up against this one kid.

[242] they didn't know that me and this kid had gotten into a tiff the day before so we were already you were actually ready to go oh yeah cocksucker bit me yeah the day no no no the day before so yeah i was it was like yeah we're ready right and and they and they felt because he was the son of a marine that he'd be able to kick my butt and all this stuff right but we'd kind of grown up together too right and they didn't know crap but anyway um and i win that one i straight up knock him out.

[243] So then they decided, oh, so you're not just going to stand there and take it like you're supposed to.

[244] So they went and got this other kid that was a few years older than me. Right afterwards?

[245] Oh, yeah.

[246] Oh, yeah, they're going to beat you down until they beat you down until you get beat.

[247] And this kid, you know, it was an interesting thing because he kept like knuckling me on my, on top of my head.

[248] And, you know, and I was, you know, and I was just ducking cover, duck and cover, duck and cover.

[249] And I remember you don't, you're hitting my head.

[250] Okay.

[251] you're hitting a block of wood buddy and so after a while you know it was just like okay he's had enough and I remember thinking myself that dude didn't do crap to me until the next day it felt like somebody had ripped all my hair out by its roots oh yeah he knew exactly what he was doing I mean you couldn't touch the end of your hair without going oh oh I probably hadn't combed my hair in a month oh yeah he bruised the hell out of my head I think he spent most of his His time on hard labor, pretty close.

[252] What did that feel like for you as his dad?

[253] Well, I learned Tom was probably one of the strongest people I ever met in my life.

[254] He's awful close now hearing that.

[255] I never told him that.

[256] But he took him away.

[257] He took beatings.

[258] I've seen him choke down so much that I thought he was dead.

[259] But he'd get right up and pull another prank.

[260] A lot of people don't consider Jones very bright, but he was an extremely brilliant man. Things he did, you know.

[261] He knew medicine inside out and upside.

[262] But a lot of people just don't never want to print that part about him too much.

[263] But he wasn't extremely brilliant.

[264] and until he got on drugs.

[265] And he probably always was on drugs to a certain amount, but I don't know, but down there he just got sloppy ass.

[266] Of course, he had his young girls that he stayed there with him most of the time.

[267] But, no, that project could have worked.

[268] That was the part that bothered me, but it wasn't to be.

[269] It seems like you said, He was the actual detriment to his own self because it's not the work of the group that...

[270] No, but the group supported him.

[271] Do you think blindly?

[272] Blindly, a lot of them did simply for his attention.

[273] And, of course, he weeded them out right away to get that inner support from the support of the other people.

[274] And they become like little Gestapo's, you know.

[275] And that's why down there I learned right quick.

[276] I said, oh, Jim, Bog, you better get yourself some smarts.

[277] And I did, and I got, most days I was away from the general group.

[278] I become a mining person.

[279] We knew there was gold there because the Guineas was finding gold all over the place.

[280] Did you guys ever find any?

[281] No. We just used that for an excuse.

[282] I had two buddies, and they probably heard about the Indian ones.

[283] We would take off every morning and we'd stay gone.

[284] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[285] She had been under the influence that she left him there.

[286] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[287] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[288] What happens next?

[289] Depends on who you ask.

[290] Was it a crime of passion?

[291] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[292] This was clearly an intentional act.

[293] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[294] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[295] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[296] Everyone had an opinion.

[297] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[298] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[299] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[300] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

[301] Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcast, or Spotify.

[302] Oh, I went through some periods of feeling sorry for myself, you know.

[303] I can imagine why.

[304] I mean...

[305] Do you feel like you sort of just had to be neutral?

[306] No. On the outside, you went with the group.

[307] On the inside, you went...

[308] I mean, you felt sorry for yourself, or you felt degraded or...

[309] It kind of, and of course, you would do the best you can so that you wouldn't be put in trouble.

[310] Was it ever hard to contain yourself, like physically speaking?

[311] Well, yes, but you got to the point, you know, you was only going to make the matters worse.

[312] But the main thing was to stay ahead of the crowd.

[313] These two Indians, they were dad and the son.

[314] They were great guys.

[315] So you had people in the church that you were, close with?

[316] Them, too.

[317] And, of course, my physical condition went down pretty bad.

[318] And Tina and Juanita, my two daughters, they were both there.

[319] And they would steal eggs, so we could boil and they feed them to me because they was afraid I wasn't going to be able to have the strength to get out of there.

[320] A lot of us had opportunities to do Jones Inn.

[321] I mean, a lot of us.

[322] when you have a gun and you got live ammunition and you could put it right on him.

[323] And it didn't happen.

[324] And I wonder why we didn't, especially me, why I didn't.

[325] I had such a couple of real opportunity.

[326] I could have blowed him right out of that chair.

[327] And why I didn't.

[328] Do you think because you were afraid of how the other members would respond to you?

[329] No. I don't think any of us ever thought how.

[330] other members would feel about anything.

[331] No. Yeah, because I can see that night just as plain as if it was yesterday, I'd land there with that high -powered gun and all, just a short distance away.

[332] You know, why I didn't.

[333] And when I got home, I'd have dreams about getting him with a pitchfork.

[334] I remember my father telling me three months beforehand, you've got to stay out of trouble.

[335] He goes, because when time comes for us to leave, we've got to leave.

[336] Because these things are going to be all put in place.

[337] He never did survive very well.

[338] We used to tell him that Tom be ready any time, but we didn't dare tell him too much because he talked to any sleep.

[339] If it got out, we were doomed.

[340] Next time.

[341] You know, by this time, we all knew something was going to happen.

[342] Something Was Wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

[343] Thank you so much to the Bogue family for participating in this season.

[344] Music by Gladrags.

[345] Follow me on Instagram at Looky Boo.

[346] L -O -O -K -I -E -B -O -O.

[347] Resources mentioned on the podcast can be found linked in the episode notes or at something was wrong .com slash episode.

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[349] Uh, okay, you get the point.

[350] Okay, love you.

[351] Bye.

[352] Illuminate the notes on their face Beside you when you're soul in far You've seen everything from Bangkok to Calgary The soul are down The time for sleep is now There's nothing to cry about To hold each other soon Black is da -boot If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

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