Elvis Costello

[0] Hi, my name is Elvis Costello.

[1] And I feel splendiferous about being Conan O 'Brien's friend.

[2] Oh, that's lovely.

[3] That's really lovely.

[4] Splendiferous.

[5] I knew you wouldn't just give me a run -of -the -mill word.

[6] Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking blues, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be.

[7] me friends you're going to be friends hello and welcome to conan o 'brien needs a friend i'm doing my best to have a melifluous tone smooth and professional trying to sound like other people i've heard on podcasts on the radio and i'm in my head now but uh i can't help it i'm connor o 'brien i'm here to please.

[8] And I hope you enjoy this audio infotainment.

[9] I'm joined, as always, by Sonamov Sessian, my trusty assistant.

[10] Hi.

[11] And also sitting in with us, Sona's assistant, and boy, is that absurd?

[12] Because he basically does all the work that...

[13] He does.

[14] Sonner refuses to do David Hopping.

[15] How are you, David?

[16] I'm good, are you?

[17] I'm good.

[18] What's happening?

[19] I have a bone to pick.

[20] Oh.

[21] Now, how could you...

[22] You've been on maternity leave for, I think, four years.

[23] Oh, I'm up three months.

[24] Yeah, it's weird.

[25] For the last three months, things have been very efficient in my life.

[26] Everything's taking care of good work, David.

[27] Oh, thank you.

[28] David stepped forward and just started helping me on doing things that you refuse to do.

[29] Yeah.

[30] And so I'm stunned that you have a bone to pick with me because I think you've had a pretty...

[31] Yeah, so you've been on the gravy train now for three months.

[32] Okay.

[33] Well, first of all, that's a separate thing I have to, like, complain about is that it's not the gravy train.

[34] I'm a mom.

[35] I'm taking care of two babies now.

[36] Well, I was one of...

[37] I was one of six, and my mom used to put us all in the kitchen, throw a boiled ham into the center of the room, and say, good luck to you all.

[38] I'm out.

[39] Okay.

[40] So tell me about your plate.

[41] So I can't say that I listened to all of the podcasts while I was gone.

[42] Sure, why should you?

[43] But you guys released this whole segment about my FOMO, and you're like, oh, we're going to, you know, and you was when we're sending.

[44] FOMO, by the way, for anyone who doesn't know, fear of missing out.

[45] Yeah, and you were, you know, talking about going to sugarfish and sending me pictures and stuff.

[46] And then you're like, we're going to do all the things that Sona loves to do.

[47] And all you could think of was going to see Thunder from Down Under, the male strip show in Vegas.

[48] Yes.

[49] Drinking white wine and getting high.

[50] Yeah.

[51] So is that all you think of me?

[52] That is 98 % of what I think of you.

[53] Okay, that's fair.

[54] No. You watch TV.

[55] What's that?

[56] You watch TV.

[57] Yeah, you watch TV.

[58] but you do enjoy the male body.

[59] You used to obsess over any show that depicted men in all of their masculine glory.

[60] Obsessed.

[61] Jigilos.

[62] Yeah, you watched the show Jigil Lows.

[63] And you used to love your favorite movie that you would talk about all the time was...

[64] Magic Mike.

[65] Magic Mike.

[66] And when there was a sequel, you pretty much made me take you and a bunch of your lady friends to see the Magic Mike sequel.

[67] Yeah.

[68] Which...

[69] The midnight showing.

[70] Yeah.

[71] As soon as it came out, we went.

[72] As soon as it came out.

[73] Yeah.

[74] And so you love that.

[75] You loves, loves, loves your wine.

[76] I do loves my wine.

[77] And we have a picture that was hanging in her office for years of me in the background being swarmed by fans that wanted pictures.

[78] And they were just like lining up and I was taking pictures of people.

[79] And you're in the foreground ignoring me with the biggest poor of Chardonnay.

[80] I've ever seen.

[81] Just a massive glass and you're sipping in and not helping me in any way and it was a candid photo it wasn't a gag photo it was a candid photo.

[82] It was.

[83] You know what?

[84] Now that you bring all that up you also couldn't live without your gummies.

[85] It's fair.

[86] Okay, relax.

[87] I can live without gummies.

[88] No, no. Since you became pregnant, you stopped.

[89] Yeah.

[90] And...

[91] And you're right.

[92] It is a really tough time for me. Aw.

[93] Is it?

[94] Do you really miss it?

[95] Do you miss it so much.

[96] And I miss it.

[97] think, oh, maybe I'll just have like half of one, but then I'm like, oh, what if I sleep through one of the babies crying and, like, meeting me for something?

[98] And so I just, I don't do it.

[99] But I think about it a lot.

[100] So, you know what?

[101] Maybe you were, maybe you were right.

[102] You know, my wife, of course, we have two kids.

[103] And in the early years, her thing was that our door, our bedroom door always had to be open in case somebody cried.

[104] And then, of course, they got older and they stopped crying and they'd sleep through the night.

[105] And then they got even older.

[106] But always, door always open in case.

[107] Anybody needs anything, anything's going on.

[108] Yeah.

[109] Now my children are, you know, 18 and about to be 16.

[110] My son's like 6 .3.

[111] Still, door cracked.

[112] What if he needs us?

[113] What if he needs us?

[114] If he needs us, he'll smash through his bedroom wall.

[115] And then he'll come smashing through our bedroom wall because he's 6 '4 and like 185 pounds.

[116] What do you mean if he needs us?

[117] If he needs us, he'll pick up his bed, throw it out the window.

[118] Oh, my God.

[119] You know, it's just insane.

[120] Well, it's in case you need him now.

[121] I know, but she's never going to, you know, when they have their own kids and they're visiting us, she's still going to, and we're like, and we're like, 110 years old.

[122] Yeah.

[123] She's going to be like, we've got to keep the bedroom door open in case they need us.

[124] Who needs us?

[125] those people in their 50s what would we do how would I help them would I rip off one of my legs and hand it to them so they could use it as a crutch because I can pull it off right now I'm not withered and old it's absurd madness I was like you couldn't think of anything else and I'm like no you're a caricature yeah I defend most humans and I say well they're complex they're three dimensional I can make a couple of jokes but I really can't reduce them to anything cartoonish because that's not fair to them.

[126] But Sona, it's so great because you really are a two -dimensional drawing that likes your wine, your gummies.

[127] You love your Armenian snacks.

[128] Yeah.

[129] And you love to watch male strippers do their thing.

[130] Nothing wrong with that.

[131] I'm a simple person.

[132] Yes.

[133] And I came in hot.

[134] I love that this started with you having a beef with us and then immediately, immediately admitting that you were in the wrong and that we were right.

[135] It was accurate.

[136] The important thing is you came to Sugarfish, though, last week.

[137] Yes, I did.

[138] I did have, now, Sugarfish, I always explained things because I don't know if people know.

[139] Sugarfish is an amazing sushi chain, and there's one right near the podcast studio, and Sugarfish, sushi is one of Sona's favorite things.

[140] And so I've been taking David there.

[141] It's been great.

[142] Because you've been home with your kids.

[143] I never had it until.

[144] Oh, no, you've never, I mean, first of all, David.

[145] Oh, here we go.

[146] No, I'm being honest here.

[147] David, a man of humble means.

[148] And I'm saying that in, I think, a kind and gentle way.

[149] Okay.

[150] I don't think you are.

[151] No, no. David's idea of good eats is, you know, three sticks of beef jerky.

[152] And he gets to drink the whole sprite.

[153] And so, so we went, I took you.

[154] to Sugarfish and you just were, you couldn't believe it, you're like, oh, this tastes so good.

[155] And look, they've got, they've actually got silverware on the table.

[156] Okay, okay.

[157] He got all excited and there was a toilet there in the restaurant you could use.

[158] Dang it.

[159] But anyway, it was a big deal for you.

[160] Admit that.

[161] I will say, yeah, the rice was warm.

[162] The rice was warm, yeah.

[163] He just loved it and we kept to, and so I said, we started taking photographs and sending them to Sona, who was home, yeah, spoon feeding your kids, whatever they eat now.

[164] Are they eating solid food yet?

[165] No. They're three months old.

[166] I completely forget what age that happens.

[167] I think that for us, we're probably going to start doing that at like six, I think.

[168] I remember very clearly the first time we fed my daughter solid food.

[169] I remembered sitting at this little table, just watching it happen.

[170] And it was just seeing her expression as she was like, what is this?

[171] Yeah.

[172] Do you remember what you fed her?

[173] It was saltwater taffy.

[174] On a spoon.

[175] With, yeah, with very sharp nuts in it.

[176] We were told later on it was a mistake.

[177] No, it was some kind of mashed mush.

[178] I forget what it was.

[179] Some, you know, but anyway, seeing someone, a human being experience for the first time solid food.

[180] Yeah.

[181] And just their mind explodes.

[182] It's incredible.

[183] Everything for the first time.

[184] I remember when you took your first gummy.

[185] Wow.

[186] You weren't there.

[187] I was there.

[188] No, you weren't.

[189] It's incredible.

[190] I was happy.

[191] I had a time of show.

[192] I was happy.

[193] Oh.

[194] All right.

[195] Well, enough blether and blather.

[196] We have big shows.

[197] today.

[198] Big, big show.

[199] Very excited.

[200] My guest today is a Grammy award -winning singer -songwriter and member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

[201] He's recorded 31 studio albums over the course of his career.

[202] And his latest project, How to Play Guitar and Why, is part instruction manual, part memoir, and available now on Audible.

[203] I'm a huge fan of this gentleman.

[204] I listened to this instruction manual slash memoir and I absolutely loved it because I have my own fascination with the guitar and with this gentleman in his music I am thrilled he's with us today Elvis Costello welcome you're one of my favorite people to talk to and one of my all -time favorite artists so to get to sit here with you and have a thoughtful conversation for six hours did they tell you at six hours Yeah, I brought a little bit of Kendall Mint cake to sustain me. You also, we have a jar you can urinate into at any point.

[205] Thank you.

[206] Well, I carry one all the time anyway.

[207] Well, I saw that.

[208] I saw that.

[209] And it looks sad, Elvis.

[210] You said Splendiferous, and I was listening to, I don't know how to describe it.

[211] It's absolutely lovely.

[212] How to play the guitar and why.

[213] It's available and audible.

[214] And I was listening to it, and it is, Of course, because it's you, it's not what one might expect.

[215] Yes, you do talk about how one might approach the guitar, but it's also this tone poem about everything, and you write, no surprise, beautifully.

[216] And you have such great images in there, and I'm reminded that any time I go to the UK, if I go to London, especially if I go to Ireland, anybody I talk to.

[217] has this lovely, lovely way of speaking and this command.

[218] I think that that's really confirmed by watching the movies of Guy Ritchie.

[219] Yes.

[220] I mean, right.

[221] Well, I mean, there's some very creative swearing.

[222] You've got to be able to be able to swear creatively if you live in England.

[223] Yes, not just the swearing.

[224] Yeah.

[225] And the punching and biting too.

[226] Beautiful.

[227] Beautiful bunch punching, beautiful biting.

[228] And headbutting.

[229] Yeah.

[230] And of course, I've always loved your lyrics and the way they interconnect and the architecture of your lyrics.

[231] But listening to this, it's so funny, and you have these great images that stick with me. You talk about the wonders of the E minor chord and how evocative it can be.

[232] And then you talk about how it's like the lantern on a minor's helmet in a deep cave.

[233] And I thought, okay, damn it, this guy's good.

[234] that is exactly what it is well thank you I was trying to treat this I called it a work of comic philosophy it might be flattering a little bit to say it's philosophical but I don't think anybody would trust me to actually give them a music lesson just listen to the way I play the guitar I make the point that it's important to keep the inner idiot alive within yourself particularly if you're going to play rock and roll guitar you don't want to know what every note is right that's where some of the You know, they're called happy accidents, not unhappy accidents.

[235] Right.

[236] You want to be able to surprise yourself.

[237] Sometimes surprise other people in a bad way by the horrible noise you're making.

[238] But the point of this ramble, narrative, whatever you would call it, how to play the guitar and why is to try and get people past that inhibition to make a mistake that will lead them to the pleasure of playing a song simply.

[239] you can go and study music formally from page one of the theory book and it'll take you very logically through it but the point I make is that the piano is laid out like a diagram it is a beautiful diagram and all the order of music and the chaos of music is there at a glance when you pick up a guitar much as if you pick up any blown instrument it's not apparent it's facing away from you for one thing so you're always looking at your hands initially.

[240] And I'm trying to just prove the point that when you begin in the key of C, which many, many instructional books of my childhood did because they were married to musical theory, you struggle to play that lovely ringing C chord.

[241] You get that under your hands and you immediately encounter the chord of F. And the cord of F is nearly impossible for every novice.

[242] And it is truthfully, as I say in the piece, the real.

[243] reason why the world is not full of happy minstrels, but in fact, I mean when I say, I don't mean minstrels, as in the old horrible sense, I mean strolling players, but is, and is actually filled with sadistic dentists and taters, and they, all of whom have encountered the court of F and it threw them down a path of, you know, they thought this pain that was inflicted on their soul, they were going to inflict on other people.

[244] ever more.

[245] This is why I thought, when I was listening to this, I thought Elvis is talking directly to me for two reasons.

[246] One, I'm a narcissist.

[247] So I always think when I listen to a great man or great woman speak that they're speaking directly to me. And I was, of course.

[248] Oh, yes, I know.

[249] It says dedicated to Conan O 'Brien, which is lovely sentiment.

[250] And then the second thing is I took up the guitar, probably rather late for most people.

[251] I'd started as a terrible drummer, and then I decided when I got out to Los Angeles to start my comedy career.

[252] I am in comedy, by the way.

[253] Yes, yes.

[254] I just want to make that clear.

[255] Yes.

[256] I have to tell people a lot of the time because it's not...

[257] No, no, no. It's not apparent.

[258] But I've warned you about being taller than me. I know.

[259] You always say that.

[260] But what I decided was I need a solo instrument.

[261] I need to learn to play the guitar.

[262] So I went to Freedom Guitar, which was basically a pawn shop, here in Hollywood, and I purchased a 1970s -era Yamaha acoustic guitar, and I purchased the Mel Bay Chordbook.

[263] Well, that's exactly the kind of chord book that I'm talking about, you know.

[264] Yeah.

[265] And I quickly realized I don't want to learn theory.

[266] I don't understand theory.

[267] Theory scares me. What I want to do is play the songs that I love to hear.

[268] And I remember very clearly, if you start in C, you've got to then go to F, and then to G. Yeah.

[269] That's just the way it goes.

[270] That's the three -cord trick that will yield many, many songs.

[271] The problem is, as you point out, F for a novice, and even for, if you're not a novice, a proper F, requires you to contort your hand in a way that causes it to explode.

[272] It also causes you to exclaim and add three other letters to that initial F. And, you know, that...

[273] It truthfully does, frequently followed by hurling the set instrument across the room, dashing it to pieces, which is, as I say, why the world is full of frustrated Fers.

[274] The people that struggle never get further than F. Now, so it seems like I'm giving the game away.

[275] I want to take people down the trails, lots of other things I say.

[276] I want to take people down the trail in how to play the guitar and why.

[277] if you sort of imagine yourself learning C and you logically have to find F as the next chord if you then allow yourself the luxury of learning the chord of G you're immediately ahead of the game because if you switch to the key of G the chord of C is that second chord you're going to need that means you already know it so you have that wonderful feeling hey I'm halfway there the chord of D is actually a very simple triangle of fingers, probably the simplest chord on the whole fretboard, certainly in the first positions.

[278] And at that point, I would say most relatively nimble -fingered people can learn to play that sequence of chords, all bit haltingly.

[279] And that's why I recommend that you simply play the guitar for yourself.

[280] Maybe watching anything, you know, you could be watching something improving.

[281] You could be watching some dreadful history show or something much more sinister or seedy.

[282] Yeah.

[283] But whatever hypnotize...

[284] You're suggesting pornography.

[285] No, you suggested pornography.

[286] I did actually.

[287] You actually just then.

[288] I just did suggest it.

[289] Nothing could be further.

[290] I don't know what you're doing later.

[291] Nothing could be further from there.

[292] But the point being that what it, you can have your neighbor come and talk to you, particularly if he's boring person, then you don't, you know, really listen.

[293] Right.

[294] You can do anything.

[295] if you teach yourself just to move your fingers until it becomes natural.

[296] One of the things that I had to kind of think of again as I was trying to get to put myself in the mind that I was in when I first learned, assuming that he started in the key of G, and these first two positions were actually relatively simple.

[297] It was that mistake that people make is to lift the whole hand from the guitar in between the chord.

[298] You really don't need to do that.

[299] you're not about to put it down.

[300] Keep your hand just above the strings and after a while you notice that your hand will just slip across into that position and before you know where you are you're playing music and my thinking and writing all of this is to find an amusing way of saying this is actually easier than you think and then you get to three chords and we get to the wonderful illumination of the minor chord in the case of G the E minor that creates the a million songs based on that chord sequence after that it's really up to you it's up to your own curiosity you might go on to write a symphony and you might go back and learn all that musical theory you might take up another instrument or you might be content with those three chords because so many wonderful songs lie within the three or four chord range and add sevenths to color those chords and gradually your core inventory, so to speak, will just grow.

[301] And you talk about this in how to play the guitar and why.

[302] You reference Hank Williams, one of the great American songwriters of all time.

[303] They call them the Shakespeare of the South.

[304] He's the Shakespeare of everywhere.

[305] Well, Shakespeare may disagree with that.

[306] Whereas Shakespeare, if we say that Hank Williams is Shakespeare.

[307] It's true.

[308] He's fucked.

[309] It's true, but he's long gone.

[310] He's not that bothered now.

[311] You're right.

[312] You're right.

[313] Hank is only recently gone.

[314] I do think he's from, Hank Williams is for everybody.

[315] You know, I mean, you have to, as I point out, one of Hank Williams' first national hits was Cole Cole Hart.

[316] Yes.

[317] But it was called call Hart as song by Tony Bennett.

[318] Yes.

[319] So he was immediately put himself in, I've always argued, when people talk about the great American songbook, it's wonderful that we celebrate George Gershman and Cole Porter, but you can't leave out Willie Dix.

[320] You can't leave out Hank Williams.

[321] These are the other American music.

[322] You can't leave out Jelly Roll Morton.

[323] There's just dozens and dozens of songwriters that we should be grateful.

[324] They thought of that idea, whatever it is.

[325] Hank Williams wrote so many unbelievable songs based on three chords.

[326] And I chose deliberately a Hank song because it's such an emotional song that I think you're, from the outside, you would imagine it must be more complex musically in order to, you know, to render this feeling.

[327] But I try to strike the balance in writing the piece and then performing it between genuine instruction, which there is a little bit of genuine instruction, and heartfelt feeling for songs like Cole Cole Heart.

[328] And I think you mentioned the fact that I'm clearly not American, so I've come to appreciate musicians like, Hank Williams, or for that matter, Willie Dixon and countless others from America, from the perspective of somebody who grew up on English radio musically and comedically.

[329] Because I think that I might be right in saying, radio comedy remained recognizable in a form that my parents would have known, with just changes of personality, whereas those same performers in America became television entertainers because television took hold in America much earlier.

[330] So the people who I didn't know anything about when I first came to America, I knew who Lucille Ball was, I knew who Phil Silvers was, because I really loved Sergeant Bilko.

[331] I had never seen Jackie Gleason until I set foot in America.

[332] Right.

[333] I might have seen his name in a movie cast list, but I didn't know how revered he was from the honeymooners.

[334] Yeah.

[335] Well, the equivalents of those shows in England were on the radio.

[336] Yes.

[337] So, of course, they contained all of the surreality of much more use of sound effects.

[338] What American television comedy achieved with slapstick, they had to achieve with sound effects, which is why I was attracted to writing the score, you know, accompanying myself throughout this piece in the spirit of BBC radio comedy, really.

[339] Well, how to play the guitar and why you're taking people on this journey that was very inspiring for me to, the point where when you were talking about cold, cold heart and talking about the power of it, I went and got my guitar, it's three chords, and played along and realized I could have played this song three months into learning the guitar and felt just as powerful and lovely as I do playing it now all these years later.

[340] That's how simple it is.

[341] And you're playing Hank Williams.

[342] The power is all there.

[343] I know.

[344] I've never really understood, you know, like why, I mean, some of the songs that they teach you in, that kind of play in a day book, which was very common when I was a kid, they weren't very interesting songs.

[345] So they didn't push you on.

[346] No. If it's a song that you really love, you have that desire to find out what the chord is that links those phrases together.

[347] And little my little, that becomes a way to learn harmony.

[348] You know, you start to hear, if you have any kind of natural ear for music, you're going to eventually become curious that you'll try to play a song and the few chords that you do know will not render it and that's when maybe you have to consult some sort of dictionary of chords and you little by little start to piece the elements of harmony which a piano trained student of course is taken through but very few people are taught to play just chord shapes on the piano they're immediately the independence of the hands playing melody in one hand baseline in the other or chords in the other in the left hand isn't the same as playing the guitar where you have a choice between learning scales and say you wanted to be Eddie Van Halen you could you could practice and practice until you got as fluid as some of half the speed of some of the solos that he played but you could only play that solo at the end of all that study it wouldn't lead you back to a full song my method is taking you from the song and then you eventually you're going to know for yourself whether it's in you to want to be that kind of person that cuts loose and finds those other things higher up the neck of the guitar that's all very thrilling that's a different study that's why I don't go into it that much you know it's funny because I'm reminded that John Lennon and Paul McCartney were steadfast about not wanting people they didn't want to know what the hell they were doing they very much clearly had this incredible facility with music and they had their 10 ,000 hours of playing and they had the ambition and the creativity but they didn't want to sit down with someone and have them explain musical theory and yet look at the body of work is there so they approached it in the way you're talking about which is sheer enthusiasm.

[349] Like a song like Michelle which has some diminished chords in it which would be much more common to the language of jazz musicians they must have I don't know maybe because the song had this French theme maybe they heard some music that contained these other voicings of chord and it's only one note different you know in the chord and it just opens a door it is like colours there are people talking colours when they're talking music but I tried not to get I did sort of try to lay out out the musical theory aspect of this in a way that was funny so that it didn't become indigestible for somebody that simply was curious to know what I felt about it because the last part of the title is why they're playing the guitar like some people just like you look good holding an instrument you know people will say well you know the piano players hidden behind a piano that's not kind of going to help me communicate with people to if you have something that you have to blow through a saxophone or a trumpet then you can't sing you can't really smile while you're playing those instruments you have to concentrate you can smile when you take it away from your mouth but if you only if you're a singing soloist so the guitar is the obviously it's the show off instrument I used to think I was shallow well I am shallow but I used to really think that I was shallow because when I first I started on the acoustic then I got my first electric guitar, which for you nerds out there was a Gretsch Tennessean.

[350] Ooh.

[351] Pretty fancy.

[352] 1964 Grech Tennessean that I got for $600 at the time, which today would be worth a lot more.

[353] Awesome.

[354] And it's the same guitar that George Harrison played on their second US tour.

[355] But I'll stop there.

[356] It goes too far and it's really sad.

[357] But I started to work on that guitar and then I realized I cared more about the look.

[358] than the sound of the electric guitar.

[359] So I liked a big Gretch and people would say, well, do you like the tone?

[360] And I'd say, I really don't know.

[361] I just know that when I'm holding a big Eddie Cochran Gretch, I think it looks cool.

[362] I don't know what you're talking about with tone.

[363] Well, I did.

[364] I can really sympathize at that because I went a stage further than that when I was a lot younger than I imagine you were if you could afford a $600 guitar.

[365] My first ever group, I formed with my childhood best friend, like a man who was like a brother to me, Joel Peterson.

[366] And we had a group called the Meteors, which consisted of one of us hitting a biscuit tin with knitting needles and the other playing what was a very impressive cardboard replica of a Rick and Backer or sometimes I'd have a bass modeled on a Hoffner, cut out of cardboard boxes glued together.

[367] And then we would hide a record play behind a curtain and we would play Freddy and the Dreamers and a mime along to this.

[368] This was like a preparation for a life in show business anyway because half the time on the BBC they didn't allow you to actually sing when I became a professional musician.

[369] So this mime or lip sync, as you call it in America, was a perfect preparation.

[370] But it was all about making the cardboard replica, a flat cardboard replica of the guitar.

[371] I mean, I hasten to add, I was only 26 when I was doing this, so it's not as pitiful as it sounds.

[372] at the time you were 52.

[373] Yeah, I was 52 while I was doing it.

[374] And you could afford a guitar, but you had gone quite mad.

[375] Yeah, I still preferred with the cardboard.

[376] And the cardboard guitars, of course, were not that resilient to the kind of shape -throwing, as we call it in.

[377] I don't know whether you call it that over here, the kind of shape -throwing that one has to affect while playing the guitar.

[378] So any kind of posing with the guitar would immediately bend the rather thinner piece of cardboard that had been cut out to fashion the neck.

[379] Now, I felt really as if I was in command of the music because I never made any mistakes while doing those.

[380] You can't.

[381] You can't because the music was coming.

[382] There's no strings.

[383] It's coming from behind a curtain.

[384] Yeah.

[385] But it confirms what you're saying about how good it feels to hold a certain kind of guitar.

[386] I remember buying a Gretch on, I think my second tour of America, I bought a Gretch White Falcon.

[387] I thought, oh my God.

[388] All I need is the fringe jacket now and I'll look just like Neil Young.

[389] And all it did was feedback all the way through the first show that I tried to play it on.

[390] And I never played it again.

[391] I just immediately went back to the shop.

[392] I just couldn't get along with it.

[393] The White Falcon, for anyone listening, and it's going to be a lot of you who don't know, it's Mike Nesmith played one when he was with the Monkees.

[394] So if you go back and look at an old Monkees episode, it's this giant white guitar.

[395] Gold fittings and everything.

[396] From a distance, it's gold, and it's got jeweled insets, and it's got a big falcon, and it's the most amazing thing.

[397] When you get up close...

[398] It's not going to like a thing with a big falcon on it, you know, like, I mean...

[399] Yeah.

[400] That's the essential part of anything.

[401] A big falcon.

[402] Everything should have a large falcon on it.

[403] I always, you know, carry one at all times, you know.

[404] You walked in with a large falcon.

[405] Yeah.

[406] And we immediately subdued it in a cage.

[407] But when you get up close and look at those guitars, they're actually very garish.

[408] When you get close, it's like seeing a clown, but from like, two inches away.

[409] It's horrified.

[410] Which is never good.

[411] Never good.

[412] No. Unless you're...

[413] That's actually a very frightening child of memory.

[414] You've just summed up now.

[415] In fact, I have to leave.

[416] I think maybe I was attracted to it because my first electric guitar was a Vox and it wasn't a cool Vox either.

[417] It was the name Vox attached to this Les Paul copy I bought in Frank Hessey's shop, which is quite a famous shop for people.

[418] Beatles fans will know that you know that we'll know this name it sort of lurks in the Beatles mythology because it's where George Harrison bought his first guitar I think when I lived in Liverpool in the early 70s I would go there and try all the guitars on the rack even the ones I couldn't afford they had this Rick and Backer that used to have a white card stuck between the strings hit formerly owned by George Harrison and I would occasionally block up the courage to ask to play it even though I couldn't afford it and it would disappear as if it was bought by people and I think in the end I got just good enough on the guitar to recognize that it was a really horrible guitar it was a rickenbacker but there was a good reason why Georgia got rid of it it was just not a good one So you think it's true you think it did belong to George Oh I think it probably did but he probably would say you know what Frank take this back and I bought instead I bought this box for exactly those reasons had fake gold fittings Yes the look weighed a ton It sounded absolutely horrible.

[419] And, you know, I struggled on that for a number of years until I found a combination of a clip -on pickup with an acoustic guitar that actually sounded funkier than my actual electric guitar.

[420] You ended up, I think what's very hard to do, you really know you've made it when you can name the artist and name their guitar.

[421] And the two go together.

[422] it's Lennon Rickenbocker and it's McCartney Hoffner and it's you know Brian Jones in that teardrop that white teardrop Vox Vox and you and the Fender Jazz Master like just that guitar I just whenever I see anybody with that guitar I think what are you doing with Elvis Costello's guitar?

[423] That's very nice of you to say but I think I have to give credit I was playing a I graduated to a telecaster I had a friend at work for Fender Showroom and managed to get me a little bit of discount on a Fender.

[424] And I played a brand new Fender for a long while, which wasn't, again, not a very good guitar.

[425] And I saw this jazz master in a secondhand shop covered in furniture varnish.

[426] It was very unattractive in its original appearance.

[427] And I had seen a guitar player from Cincinnati, Ohio, called Danny Adler, who was playing in a group in London at the time.

[428] And he kind of, he was, he employed.

[429] impressed me because he could play the guitar part from Clean Up Woman, the Betty Wright record, my little beaver, the guitar player from Miami.

[430] And I'd never heard anybody play that kind of funk kind of rhythm guitar so well in person.

[431] And I thought, well, that's a bit of a different kind of sounding thing.

[432] It's got a...

[433] So I have to credit him, really, as a person that I saw play at first.

[434] I think you'd get a few people who would lay claim to that guitar other than me. Tom the lane of television played one.

[435] I know that Fender put out several models name for artists long before they got around to remaking my one.

[436] I mean, it was only about 10 or 12 years ago that they made a brief, a small run.

[437] But I think really the mistake that they made was to recreate my guitar with its original, can I say, ship brown furniture branch look.

[438] It sounded actually really good, but it looked like hell, you know, And I don't really see any young kids.

[439] What I really need a guitar is going to make me look cool.

[440] I think I'll have one that looks like the color of a roadkill.

[441] Yeah, exactly.

[442] I want a fecal look to my guitar.

[443] Yeah, that's what's going to make me a hit with the girls and the boys.

[444] Listening to this audible book that you made.

[445] First of all, it's lovely to listen to you have this great melodic speaking voice.

[446] So it's very seductive.

[447] And several of them, it has been pointed out.

[448] Yes.

[449] Several of them.

[450] Yeah.

[451] This was pointed out to me by Scott Sherrod who produced the audio book version of my memoir on Faithful Music and Disappearing Inc. And when I began talking, I was the first couple of chapters were set in Liverpool.

[452] And when I start to talk about Liverpool, I start to sound like my mother a little bit more.

[453] And then the third day I was recording.

[454] I had a passage where I had to say, well, I was born in a street that my first home when I was a child, a baby, was in a street that had one of the blue plaques that commemorates famous people that lived in that street.

[455] Now, this was a very modest street.

[456] We lived in a basement of a boarding house.

[457] By this point, the neighbourhood had gone to hell.

[458] We had moved in.

[459] There's the clue.

[460] but at some point Sir Edward Elgar had lived probably when these houses were you know dedicated to one family living on a four -story building not broken down into little bedsets and I started to speak like this I said on that morning I got up and the horse -drawn milk float came around early in the morning and parked next to the Morris Minor and I suddenly started to sound like David Niven and I didn't know how to stop doing it And it's happened to me a few times.

[461] I get on a microphone and something comes over me. My wife Diana and I did a season where we played cartoon cats for Pete the Cat.

[462] And on the day that I was playing Pete's father, I had a cold.

[463] And when I spoke on the microphone, it sort of pritched my voice very high.

[464] And I started to speak like David Beckham.

[465] So I think, like, Pete.

[466] He's way up here.

[467] Can you go in the garage and get my rent?

[468] And, of course, it was fine.

[469] They all loved it.

[470] And nobody told me to stop.

[471] And then when I went back, like, a month later to do the next episode, I couldn't do the voice.

[472] Right.

[473] I mean, it was, I'm not, I'm not, clearly, anybody that's ever seen me act knows that some things that I do border on acting.

[474] Not close enough to the border, but they border on acting, you know.

[475] But then something happens when I start to read things that have written down.

[476] I find, I can hear my voice changing in the headphones.

[477] And I think it's just the excitement of what I'm talking about.

[478] Sure.

[479] The idea of hitting the guitar like that, I'm sort of, I'm seeing John Lennon's stance when I'm saying it.

[480] So I start to speak like the more in the parts of my voice that really come from movles, you know.

[481] I hope that people don't think that it's insincere because I change my voice a little bit.

[482] My assumption was that you were a sociopath.

[483] Well, that was that as well.

[484] You had no core personality.

[485] I don't have any core personality.

[486] You just adopt.

[487] Just adopt and whoever you're with, you've become me pretty much.

[488] And the well of hatred that obviously is apparent from the torture that I like to put people through in this.

[489] No, it's really fantastic and I learned so much and I'm such a fan of yours that I thought, well, I'm not going to really pick up anything new about Mr. Costello here and then I find out that you always wanted to be a song first and not a performer which I can't believe I didn't know because I think every youngster comes at it thinking I want to be the rock and roll god I want to be the one on stage with the guitar it really surprised me that you came at it thinking I want to be a songwriter and then it led to this I think it's explained by by two things one of them is from very a very early experience of music as a child watching knowing that my mother sold records and I knew that one of the things that she had to do in those days was to be able to recommend more than one version of a song people didn't think in terms of covers they thought in terms of interpretations of songs so if you were going to be good at selling records you needed to know the difference in recommending Frank Sinatra or Victor Mohn's rendition of the song, which not just down to whether that person even liked it.

[490] People would quite often come in and sing to my mother in the shop, she told me. They'd come in, do you have this?

[491] And they go, and they wouldn't know any of the words.

[492] They wouldn't know the title of the song.

[493] And they would just sing the melody of something, and she would have to try and decode it and then recommend a rendition.

[494] So you can sort of see that my first impression was that the songwriter was very important.

[495] then you have to remember I'm just old enough that I'm just old enough.

[496] That's the important thing to kind of remember.

[497] Not too old, just old enough.

[498] The Beatles obviously really, we talk about Hank Williams, obviously in the 50s.

[499] I didn't know Hank Williams' songs very well when I was that young.

[500] The Beatles really changed the whole music business because they wrote their own songs and it was very unusual for performers to write their own songs.

[501] Certainly in English music, there were fewer of those and then it became the norm so the two things were going along parallel my observation of music my knowledge of my family's involvement in music my mother is in what you'd call here record retail my father's singing on a radio dance band and again bringing home sheet music well the sheet music sort of made me feel well somebody was responsible for writing this song I didn't just hear a song on the radio and go oh Johnny Jimmy, Bobby, whoever that is singing, made that up.

[502] I kind of knew that he didn't make it up until John and Paul came along and then we all knew that they were writing those songs and they sort of stood out from the crowd.

[503] That's why I love Carol King.

[504] That's why I love Bert Baccairac so much because those songs were incredibly popular in England and they would quite often say, here's the new Burt Baccarac song.

[505] You know, they wouldn't necessarily always say the name of the artist singing at first and the curious nature of record releases between America and England was that there was a little bit of time when the local act could have a hit with a new American song so you would have Billy J. Kramer and the Dakota singing, wishing and hoping and then there would be the American version which made the songwriter seem like an important kind of guy if you could have like two hits in the chart with the same title.

[506] Somewhere along the way even when I started to play the instrument myself I was drawn to particularly the band.

[507] Now, a group that had three of the greatest singers ever.

[508] That's right.

[509] But the guy that wrote the songs didn't sing.

[510] That's right.

[511] Robbie didn't sing.

[512] He sang a bit of harmony, but he didn't really feature as a lead vocalist.

[513] Those two experiences of really always being very aware that the songs were created by somebody and getting to know the names of those songwriters and the fact that many of them had a fame that in some cases was superior to that of the, people who sang their songs.

[514] It's fascinating.

[515] I've always wondered there's, there was something about the alchemy of the band that I know Robbie wrote the songs, but clearly he was drawing on, there was something with that group that he was drawing on.

[516] There was some kind of, yeah, I think that's fair.

[517] I'm sure, you know, the incredible thing to have not just Livon's anecdotal memory of Arkansas, but to have Rick Dancoe and Richard Manuel's voices.

[518] to imagine melodies for, and the fact that they also wrote, at that time in the earlier days, they also wrote melodies.

[519] Some of the most beautiful songs the band ever recorded were, you know, Wheels on Fire is a Rick Danco melody and, you know, Tis of Rage is a Richard Manuel melody with Bob Dylan.

[520] So, I mean, all of this seems very obscure, maybe the people, but that's the way I learned it, because my father came from jazz and therefore the songwriter.

[521] of the previous generations, the music that my grandfather would have heard when he came to America in the 20s, the songs that have been handed down to us through the hands of jazz musicians and constantly reinvented.

[522] That made those songwriters seem like very important fellows, and that would be something that you'd want to get into that tradition, if not that business.

[523] Nobody could guess when you're just writing something in your bedroom whether you're going to get heard, much like whether you'd ever have a hit record or any such nonsense.

[524] You're not usually thinking that.

[525] And that's not what I'm trying to propose with this piece, is that this is...

[526] You might get to your dream, but you're not going to get to your riches.

[527] You probably wouldn't go into music now trying to get rich.

[528] I mean, I can speak about comedy.

[529] I can't speak the way you can speak about music, but I can speak about so many young people have approached me over the years.

[530] And they've said, I want to do what you do.

[531] I want to be famous.

[532] And I think, well, you just lost me because I swear to God, when I got involved in all of this, there was always a dream that I might become a known person doing it and wouldn't that be kind of fun?

[533] But what came first was the enthusiasm and the desire and that came from watching everything from Monty Python to old Jack Benny to W .C. Fields to the Marks Brothers to...

[534] I think it works the same way in comedy and in music.

[535] I think they're very similar.

[536] It's a lot about rhythm and notes and timing but it starts with, I've got to know this.

[537] And what you described really beautifully in this audio book is you talk about, for a while you had a guitar, this old beat -up, worthless Spanish guitar, but you never touched it.

[538] And then I think if your parents had hired a professor to come by and teach you the guitar, it would not have gone well.

[539] What happened was you heard this one song by Fleetwood Mac, Peter Green's song, Man of the World.

[540] Man of the World.

[541] and you thought, it got to you, and I know what you're talking about because I know that song, and it fits that this would be the song that you would hear that would make you think, I've got to get inside that tune somehow, and if it kills me, I'm going to learn how to play it on that shitty guitar over there on the wall.

[542] It's a very odd thing that happened about that because I came to understand when I got older and I got a little more fluent with one instrument and that obviously I'm not having any brothers and sisters, I only had my own experience, apart from forming this group of subterfuge with my best friend, I never really understood that I had any kind of gift of an ear for music until I was much older.

[543] So I wasn't attracted to learning any of the three -cord songs.

[544] I did actually, believe in or not, take classical guitar lessons for about three weeks and could not get along with the what they call tablature, which is a kind of way of notating the fingering of the guitar.

[545] I found that even more confusing than actual notated music and could not.

[546] It was like trying to trim your mustache in the mirror.

[547] And, you know, at 11, it was a bit unusual that I had that mustache in the first place.

[548] But it really was, I just could not get to grips with it.

[549] And so back in the corner it went until I was 13 or 14, whatever year.

[550] whatever age I was, 14, I think, when Man of the World came out, I was youngest in my year at school.

[551] And somebody, probably in an upper year, had the chord changes written out in chord symbols.

[552] And it really was like, I've said this story several times, but it is really true.

[553] It was almost like, have you seen this picture of Diana Dawes in her underwear?

[554] You know, it was like something furtive about it being.

[555] If you play these, if you put your fingers on the guitar, this sound will come out and you can do and the words were written out with the chord shapes drawn little boxes with where the fingers went and I just studied and studied and studied.

[556] I realize now that the song is actually really complicated and a very odd song to pick as a novice one so in writing this piece I had to almost think my way back to what it would have felt like if I had picked up the guitar and learned one chord then a second.

[557] I think I had made that attempt once or twice and literally gone through the C to F roadblock and just that this is not for me. Maybe I can play the euphonium or something instead coming from a line of...

[558] I think you'd have had just as much success.

[559] I'm not so sure.

[560] But some people would have said yes, it would have kept this quiet more.

[561] That would have been a good thing.

[562] But I come from a line...

[563] I come from two generations of brass players.

[564] So that was the start.

[565] of it.

[566] And that gave me quite a combination.

[567] And then I realized that learning the chords of man of the world actually sort of really didn't lead me. In the analogy of learning a flashy guitar solo, you just learn that one solo.

[568] You don't know any other songs or any other solos.

[569] I had to then humble myself to go back and go through the rudiments.

[570] But it was at that moment that I stumbled on this.

[571] If I start from a different place, I'll be able to play more songs more readily.

[572] This one song got you in the door.

[573] Yeah.

[574] And that's really all I'm trying to do with this piece.

[575] I mean, I'm not on some mission to flood the world with millions of guitar players.

[576] That's a lot of competition for me. I'm still in the business.

[577] We have enough.

[578] We have lots of extra guitar players out there trying to get the gigs.

[579] But I have tried to say it because at the end of it, all the other reasons why you play, that you play to give praise, to lament, to seduce.

[580] You know, you have to acknowledge some of the nefarious reasons.

[581] why one might play instruments just to gain attention.

[582] Like you say, narcissism, that's part of it.

[583] Holding a guitar is great.

[584] If you have a big nose like me, Pete Townsend put it out, having a guitar in your hands distracts from having a large nose.

[585] I wore glasses.

[586] I'm curious what you think of the fact that famously there's the stories of the lads in Liverpool wanting to know what the B -7 was.

[587] And no one knew how to make a B -7.

[588] And so, and then I think, you know, George and Paul heard there's a bloke across town.

[589] If we take this bus and then that bus and then that bus, this guy will show us how to make a B7.

[590] And he did.

[591] And then they had that magical chord that you need to play.

[592] Pretty much every Elvis song from the Sunsession era, you've got to have the B7.

[593] And so it was a quest.

[594] It's like the Tolkien creatures trying to find the magical ring.

[595] they needed to find the B7 you describe in how to play the guitar and why how we now live in this era and I'm familiar with it because I've discovered it didn't exist when I was learning the guitar but we now live in this era where I can pick any song off any of your albums and I can plug it into an app called Cordify this is not an ad for Cordify I'm not getting paid and they will play the song your song and they'll show all the chords in time everything is right at our fingertips but something might get lost that there's no struggle and also the feeling and there is something really I mean I'm not saying oh it was better in the old days but people will be familiar and probably still familiar if they if they frequent their local record emporium you know those places where there's still a record shop that's curated in some way people say you know not that record that one you know you know not that record that one you need that one.

[596] That was part of the process, too, of learning somebody to point you in the way in the same way as the Beatles talk about, somebody across town that knew B7, that liberated them to play those Elvis songs.

[597] I think there's something to that.

[598] I think the instantaneous availability doesn't come with it complete understanding.

[599] It's like getting a toothache and reading the possible causes of that toothache on the internet without a qualified medical doctor next to you, 20 minutes later you've got a brain tumour, right?

[600] Or your leg is going to drop off.

[601] Or you've got some blood disease or whatever it is.

[602] You can convince yourself of that with unqualified information.

[603] We don't even want to go into how bad unqualified information can be in the world.

[604] But in terms of simply playing music, it doesn't follow that just because everything is available, everything of value is understood.

[605] And the very rarity of music when I feel fortunate in a way, although it felt frustrating and I even wrote songs about it that I had to tune in the radio at certain times of the day and week to hear the songs that I wanted to hear, it did make those moments when that record came on really stick with me. And the instant availability of it isn't necessarily preferable because it makes you blaze about how easy.

[606] That's all I'm trying to say.

[607] I'm not trying to say, I know better than somebody much more skilled.

[608] There are more methodical ways one could learn.

[609] And I didn't set out to really write an instructional manual so much as ways not to prevent yourself from having the pleasure of playing.

[610] More importantly, just to play in the sense of a child, that you play without any embarrassment, without caution.

[611] You jump off things.

[612] You shouldn't jump off when you were a kid and then you learn better that I'm going to spray my ankle.

[613] if I do that, but you didn't half enjoy jumping off it when you were a kid, whatever the thing is.

[614] And that's what I'm trying to sort of remind myself as much as anything, even the age I am now, that this was, you know, I recorded this during the period where we couldn't travel around so much.

[615] And I've done a lot of work in that time.

[616] I've made, I don't know, I think we counter them up between my producer, Sebastian Chris, and myself.

[617] I think we've worked on 11 records worth of music that includes remixing in a back catalogue that have come out in the interim we have two records that are prepared for a release next year and I think that was a reaction to not being able to go out and do my regular job which is travelling around and playing the songs that I've gathered together over 45 years maybe but the responses to this interlude seem to be listening to you know choices were listening to like echoes, unreliable echoes, withdrawing and kind of sort of getting this way face kind of mopey music coming out, singing songs about isolation that are not as good as John Lennon's isolation, which is nearly every song written about isolation.

[618] Or say, well, we're in a box that we didn't choose to be in.

[619] Let's kick the fucking way out of here with whatever it is we do.

[620] Let's be alive to what we're doing.

[621] And I feel like if anybody listens to my daft ramble, I hope they enjoy the ridiculous aspects of it that I relate, that, you know, that like I really did want to learn to play April come she will because I knew a girl called April, and then I thought maybe I could write a song about another girl I liked if I learned minor chords and then I discovered that that song's actually in a major key.

[622] I mean, all these things where you miss hearing, all the mistakes that you make along the way, are all part of it, just as much as book learning, you know, and I think it's true of every subject, really.

[623] I've never yet used algebra in real life, but I still studied at a time.

[624] I think sometimes you taught things to teach you how to learn.

[625] I've used algebra several times during this interview.

[626] Have you?

[627] Yeah.

[628] It didn't show.

[629] No, my mind works on so many levels, Elvis.

[630] You just couldn't believe it.

[631] You know, I would have to ask, you've had a very unusual experience, which is that you wrote, co -wrote songs with Paul McCartney and I've thought, how did you not step outside yourself in that moment and think of the boy in London, Liverpool yourself, listening to this rock god and now you're with him?

[632] Were you able to detach all of that and just get down to the business and do the work?

[633] I actually was.

[634] I think that I've been a ramphole enough and I've seen the, you know, it is a balance that I've seen some quite eminent people completely lose their minds in his company briefly.

[635] And I had to remind myself every day that I went to work to sit opposite him, like just as we're sitting here only with two guitars and a couple of notebooks, that he hadn't hired a nine -year -old to come and write songs with him.

[636] You know, he didn't hire me in that sense, but I hadn't invited.

[637] He'd invited me, whatever age I was, 33 or four or something.

[638] Maybe I was older than now.

[639] I can't even remember.

[640] You know, I was supposed to be there at that moment.

[641] I wasn't stepping into anybody's shoes.

[642] That would be, and that is often, I think, the strange thing when there's a level of fame that probably very few of us can imagine that people have a lot of dreams about those people.

[643] And I obviously imitated.

[644] I had briefly had one of those beetle wigs when I was eight or nine.

[645] No, really?

[646] Plastic hat molded like hair.

[647] I mean, I also worked in a cosmet...

[648] I wish you still had that and wore it around.

[649] No, no. Well, I mean, I think I wore it once and realized it it was such a hideous look.

[650] I looked like...

[651] I didn't even know who the three stooges were, but I looked like one of them.

[652] You look like Mo, I'm sure.

[653] I looked like, is it Moe?

[654] It's Moe.

[655] You look like Mo. I didn't know the...

[656] Mo was the Beatles before the Beatles.

[657] Yeah.

[658] And then, you know, but the same way as when I worked for Elizabeth Arden, when I was writing my first record, I was still working in a day job.

[659] I could get cheap lipstick and mascara.

[660] You know, they had a company store where you could get the seconds.

[661] It never occurred to me to put it on.

[662] You know, like during the glam era, I was working the back end of the glam era.

[663] It's just with this face, you know, we're both patties, you know.

[664] It just doesn't work.

[665] It just doesn't work.

[666] You know, it was sort of like this pasty kind of skin like with the rouge on it.

[667] It would just look awful.

[668] Yes.

[669] And it just never occurred to me to visualize myself in that.

[670] that kind of fantasy way.

[671] So I think, again, it's probably something to do with the fact that I saw how work a day making music could be through my father's experience.

[672] And then I had all the same kind of kid and teenage magic of like the first time I saw Marvin Gaye on television or the Supremes, you know, like they came over and there was a ready steady go dedicated to Motown.

[673] Well, you call Motown, we call Tamla acts.

[674] And it was just like, oh, yeah, so we can have like four lumpy lads from Bolton in beetle suits or we can have Stevie Wonder.

[675] Yes.

[676] Like, suddenly another world exists that we didn't know about.

[677] And that keeps on happening.

[678] So I've been very, very fortunate in the people that I have worked with.

[679] I mean, this week, I have to tell you this because I think you'll appreciate it.

[680] You mentioned Paul, who that was the most wonderful thing.

[681] We wrote some really good songs.

[682] We recorded them together, which, That part was thrilling to sit, you know, to write a song with Paul McCartney, go downstairs from his writing room into a studio and harmonized together.

[683] Wow, okay.

[684] That was like one of the most.

[685] And those are by far the best versions of those songs.

[686] I would, at the risk of offending it better than the versions he recorded of them, better than the versions I recorded of the ones that I cut.

[687] Like two days ago, I was at Capitol Studios, a mile from here.

[688] Yep.

[689] With a 30 -piece orchestra and a rhythm section cutting two songs.

[690] songs I wrote with Bert Bacharach.

[691] Oh, my God.

[692] With Bert in the studio.

[693] Now, you know, work out the arithmetic.

[694] I mean, he won't mind me saying he's 93 this year.

[695] And by the end of the day, I was completely exhausted from the intensity of singing those songs trying to do my best, singing live in the booth with the 30 -piece orchestra being conducted by Vince Mendoza, the ringery, incredible rhythm section, and watching Bert stand up at the board and then go bar 61 we've got to get that downbeat Elvis you're not singing the melody right at bar 12 Jesus you know and by the end of the day we have these two beautiful songs we're going to issue next year as part of a package celebrating the it'll be 21 years since Painted from Memory came out next year and I thought everything I ever wanted to be as a songwriter is embodied in being the lyricist for two Burt Bacharack songs realized at this level.

[696] Like at the highest possible level with musicians who were totally committed to the job in hand and at the end of the day when he came in to thank them stood up and gave him a standing ovation.

[697] Wow.

[698] And I mean, that's about as emotional experiences I've had in a studio.

[699] Yeah.

[700] And I've had a lot of really magical things but, you know, I do feel fortunate that some of the things that I've dreamed of, this is a funny question that's proposed by journalists quite a lot.

[701] What would the 21 or 22 year old you that say, say to the person that did this, that with the implication that there's something you betrayed or you didn't keep some part of the pact?

[702] And I'm going, one, I could never have imagined most of the things that have happened to me. And many of the unusual things are sort of, they're not a side issue because 15 songs with Paul McCartney, maybe as many as 30 songs written with Bert Baccarac, you know, a half a dozen songs written with Alan Toussson, and the numerous other people I've collaborated with is not the main part of my output as a songwriter.

[703] That's hundreds of songs that I wrote on my own.

[704] And play in shows to this day, I'm opening, you know, a tour next week.

[705] That's what I wanted to do all along.

[706] But nevertheless, in writing this piece, I don't know if anybody can learn to play the guitar from listening to me to talk but I can maybe make people laugh about the fear they might have about not doing it because I've just been incredibly fortunate that all these things have unfolded from getting past that chord of F. Yes, yes.

[707] What I really feel about this how to play the guitar and why is that it also has nothing to do with playing the guitar, which is really lovely.

[708] It's just nice, it's an hour and a half listen, it's also very funny.

[709] I can tell that part of you wanted to be a goon show comedian or you wanted to make those sound effects you wanted to play.

[710] You're doing that.

[711] Your philosophy's coming out and the journey's coming out which I'll go back to any journalist that says what would the 20 year old Dolvis Costello think about what the you know 50 year old Elvis Costello it's a journey.

[712] You'd have no idea what they were talking about.

[713] The 20 year old would be...

[714] We all look at old pictures and go what was I thinking when I bought that shirt, those shoes, that haircut.

[715] We all have that moment.

[716] And I'm no different than that, of course.

[717] And there's something inherently ridiculous about playing rock and roll in a great way.

[718] That's why you have to keep the idiot.

[719] And there's no accident that the Beatles were on Pallophone, the label on which Peter Sellers recorded and the goons recorded.

[720] I'm sure they were delighted to be in the studio with George Martin.

[721] George Martin was a Goon show producer.

[722] He was the producer of those.

[723] Spike Milligan, you know, it was like something.

[724] I just adored, you know, who is the less well -known of the goons because Peter Sellers' fame as a movie actor.

[725] But as I said at the beginning, you know, the radio comedy is very important part of just the ritual of living in England in those days because we didn't have 24 -hour rock and roll radio.

[726] So Sunday afternoons, you would, there would be shows like Round the Horn.

[727] Well, round the horn, there's a great name for English.

[728] That explains English comedy right there.

[729] The man is called Kenneth Horn.

[730] Round the horn suggests voyage.

[731] But the word horn itself is inherently double entendre, you know.

[732] So it's taken much further than that.

[733] The characters that appeared in Round the Horn included an outrageously gay couple that spoke in Polare, you know, in arcane gay slang.

[734] And they said the most unbelievable things in the 1960s when homosexuality was illegal.

[735] It was illegal.

[736] Yeah, yeah.

[737] You know, it was illegal to be gay.

[738] So there were the subversive element of them infiltrating, mainstream British comedy and this guy played straight man to it even though his name was horn it was inherently a joke right there saying everybody in the face pardon that you know that is a lot of English comedy is what my father used to call bumbelly and po that the jokes are essentially something to do would go into the toilet your belly either the size of it or the how euphonious it is and the poe which is the chamber pot so anything to do with bodily function is inherently...

[739] You've just described 32 years of my comedy career.

[740] I wanted to end, just speaking of comedy, if you did something for me, you probably won't remember this, but years and years ago, you recorded a piece for us which bashes and wobbles around the internet and people bring it up to me all the time.

[741] A quick comedy sketch and you were so funny in it.

[742] You're sitting there very, playing it very straight, and I play you, Allison.

[743] And I urge people to look this up because you are so, goddamn funny in this.

[744] I'm playing you Allison and I'm playing it so, so soulfully and I'm looking at your eyes and I remember how hard this was to shoot because I didn't think I could play this song to you, but I did and I'm playing it and I'm playing it very soulfully and you're listening and it's just the right time you reach over with wire cutters and you start cutting the strings on my guitar.

[745] And then there's a pause and I look at you and you look at me and I start to about to go strum again and you reached over and cut the remaining string.

[746] Please go look at that.

[747] It is...

[748] It's very hard to do that kind of thing.

[749] I mean...

[750] Oh, no, no. You did it.

[751] It's like the Marx Brothers.

[752] You mentioned the Marx Brothers.

[753] You know, and the Beatles having that legend of 10 ,000 hours or whatever it's supposed to be that will look at...

[754] The reason the Marx Brothers could walk up, that Harpo could walk up to somebody, pull their tie out, pull shears and cutters.

[755] That's years of being...

[756] in vaudeville to do that.

[757] Have you ever tried to cut somebody's tie off?

[758] It's not easy.

[759] It's not easy.

[760] And they get angry.

[761] They get angry quickly.

[762] And it's around the neck and then you've got an angry red face person coming at you.

[763] And really the only thing to do then is kill them.

[764] Oh, and you have to.

[765] And I've done it.

[766] Well, look up that clip, please, people.

[767] Because you are a vaudevillian in that moment.

[768] Your timing was absolutely fantastic.

[769] And that clip keeps coming back as some of people's, you know, 30 years of me doing late night comedy.

[770] And people still say to me, When you tried to play Allison for Elvis Costello and he cut the strings on your guitar and how quietly and with great dignity you do it, it's one of my favorite things.

[771] I'm going to wrap this up, but this is an unequivocal joy for me to get to talk to you.

[772] You're just one of my all -time favorite artists, and you're so thoughtful about everything that you've done and the complexity of it all.

[773] I think it comes off beautifully in how to play the guitar and why.

[774] And I was so excited today.

[775] I've never done this, but I brought my 1946.

[776] Maybe can I see it?

[777] Yeah, you can.

[778] It's right here.

[779] You don't have to strom it or anything, but you don't.

[780] No, I'd like to strom it.

[781] But I've been looking at it throughout the...

[782] I have an old Martin guitar, which is my prize possession.

[783] It's got no metal in the neck because the U .S. had embargoed metal during World War II.

[784] And this is from what year?

[785] 46.

[786] I just thought I want that in the studio to absorb the magic I've been waiting my time just to talk to you being looking all down in the mouth and down at your shoes the baby I've come to tell you the news I'll paint rainbows all over your blues I heard you've been spending a lot of your time up in your room and at night you've been listening to the dark side of the moon you don't talk to nobody if they don't talk to you so I came here to sing you a chum I give up is really all you have to say it's time to find a brand new style because this really ain't the way let's go for a ride on my trampoline I can show you the prettiest fountains that you've ever seen let's run to your closet put on you blue sweet shoes I paint rainbows All I paint rainbows Okay All right Well this is the happiest I've been in memory John Sebastian John B Sebastian I love that man I've met him many times One of the great songwriters in America There's another one And a great American songbook Should contain the man that wrote Do You Believe in Magic?

[787] And she's still a mystery And six o 'clock And many many others so you didn't have to do it.

[788] And that beautiful song, just so easy to love and such a wonderful, wonderful voice.

[789] Well, you somehow did that and then made it about someone else, which is a very gracious beautiful thing to do.

[790] I don't think he wrote the song about their line about the dark side of the moon.

[791] I put that one in as a cover reference.

[792] And you didn't cut the strings off with the cheers while I was doing it.

[793] Guess what?

[794] This is a beautiful...

[795] People thought it was funny when you stopped me from singing.

[796] If I had stopped you from singing and playing, people would kill me. Elvis Costello, a true honor to be in your presence.

[797] How to play the guitar and why, if you have no interest in the guitar, listen to this.

[798] It's an hour and a half of your time.

[799] It's absolutely lovely, funny, sweet, evocative, poetic, everything we need right now.

[800] So check it out.

[801] Elvis, thank you so much.

[802] Thank you, my friend.

[803] Thank you.

[804] Okay, Conan, it's time for another review.

[805] The reviewers.

[806] I love it when you are authoritative, David.

[807] These are all, thank you so much.

[808] You can't even do it.

[809] Oh, God.

[810] These are all real five -star reviews from fans about your podcast.

[811] If you out there would like to leave us a review, just go to Apple Podcasts and please rate and review five stars.

[812] The first review comes from Shria who writes.

[813] Wait, did you just ask people to give us five stars?

[814] Well, yeah, we're not going to read a one -star.

[815] Maybe we should.

[816] Isn't that more honest?

[817] No. I don't think we want to know.

[818] Yeah.

[819] It's probably people I know.

[820] I can't believe you're saying it.

[821] Yeah.

[822] It's like, hey, that's my brother, Neil.

[823] I think sometime we should read a one -star review.

[824] You will spiral.

[825] That would be a disaster.

[826] Because now what if everyone listening to this goes and leaves a one -star review and your ratings just...

[827] Oh, I see.

[828] I refuse to listen.

[829] I'll only listen to five stars.

[830] Great.

[831] And plus there are cash prizes if you leave five stars.

[832] Oh.

[833] Previous was not true.

[834] Oh.

[835] All right.

[836] That was my lawyer.

[837] Okay.

[838] First reviewer comes from Shrew who writes, question, hi guys, this first line.

[839] Matt, I hope you read this.

[840] Well, sorry, sorry, Shria.

[841] Shria, Matt's on paternity leave as it's called in the business.

[842] Go ahead.

[843] I saw Conan's latest post on Instagram with David.

[844] His teeth look extremely white.

[845] Does he have fake teeth?

[846] Thanks, Shria.

[847] Do you have fake teeth or do I have fake teeth?

[848] You.

[849] What are fake teeth?

[850] Teeth that are not real.

[851] I don't understand what that is.

[852] When you mean?

[853] Like dentures?

[854] I guess.

[855] Oh, veneers.

[856] Veneers.

[857] Oh, God.

[858] Oh, Jesus, yeah.

[859] I've got some veneers on my...

[860] Do you really?

[861] Well, aren't your front teeth all fucked up?

[862] Yes, thank you.

[863] I grew up...

[864] Thank you.

[865] I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts, in the 70s.

[866] I regularly got my face punched in.

[867] So, yes, I got veneers, but they're not big fake...

[868] I don't have big fake chompers.

[869] They just, they're just on the front, right here.

[870] like the four teeth in the front have a nice little veneer on them what do you think David so what do you guys think I think they're great teeth wait is it really because you got them knocked out no I didn't get them knocked do you really think that people beat me I was beaten up once I was beaten up once in 1981 we don't need to get into that Boston's North End not important smashed my they smashed my nose what did the doctor say about your nose my mother came to the emergency room and said is my son's nose okay and he said, okay, it's a bag of bones.

[871] He was British.

[872] Shout out if you're out there, Dr. Constable.

[873] Never forget that.

[874] Anyway, anyone listening to this can imagine why someone in the North End would want to beat the shit out of me. It was a couple of guys, to be honest with you.

[875] Actually, it was an entire village.

[876] It just keeps getting bigger.

[877] They called my mother at work, and they told her, your son was attacked by a mob, and her reaction was like, well, that makes sense.

[878] Oh, my God.

[879] Anywho, no, it's not because of that.

[880] But, you know, I grew up in that era where you drank, we had this drink called like Zarex that was pure sugar.

[881] I mean, it was a terrible time in the 70s.

[882] Kids, I know a lot of youngsters out there, listen, just be glad you didn't grow up in the 70s.

[883] And, you know, during the hostage crisis, I gnashed my teeth a lot.

[884] And during the Carter presidency in general, I compensated for his failed economic policy.

[885] by just chewing a lot of sugar, cubes.

[886] And so, yeah, I had some, I'm an honest person.

[887] I have, I don't think that's a, of all the cosmetic work a man can have done for me to have just a little bit of a porcelain veneer on the front teeth.

[888] I think that's fine.

[889] I also take very good care of my teeth.

[890] What's her name, Shria?

[891] Shria.

[892] Yeah, Shria.

[893] I resent any implication that my teeth are nice and white because they are porcelain veneers.

[894] Yes, I'm sure that's 80 % of the battle.

[895] but I also brush regularly.

[896] I also floss carefully and use various rinses, bombs, creams, and ointments.

[897] This is fascinating podcasting.

[898] This is gripping.

[899] I think we cracked the riddle.

[900] Shria, by asking a very personal and I think rude question, I gave you an honest answer, but also we found out that I was savagely beaten in the 70s in the North End by hundreds of people who set up on.

[901] our next view comes from going to guides who writes you are a joy and a delight just listen to the latest episode where you ponder products to endorse like cluny and his tequila a wine cooler or rose wine was mentioned what if you created a fizzy wine cooler that was not rosé pink but conan pompadour orange i for one would buy it by the case anywho i love you conan and i get so happy when i see there's a new podcast episode to listen to let me know when the cocozze is ready to buy X -O -X -O -S -O Shannon.

[902] I wish she had said X -O -X -O -Gossip Girl.

[903] Shannon, you know, who would love this is my manager, Gavin Pallone, constantly begging me, why aren't I doing some kind of big product integration that's going to make him a billionaire?

[904] And, you know, and he really was fascinating.

[905] He was, you see what, Clooney, Clooney has this tequila.

[906] You know, he and Randy Gerber, and they sold a company for a billion dollars.

[907] And I think, right, that's George Clooney.

[908] Nobody, like, that's a very, very handsome movie star.

[909] And people want to emulate what he's doing.

[910] There's not a goddamn person in America who's like, how do I capture that Conan Magic with the ladies?

[911] Shannon.

[912] No, Shannon, that's very nice of you.

[913] But I swear to God, no one, when they saddle up to the bar, says, what is Conan O 'Brien drink?

[914] That's the drink for me. Or what's he wearing?

[915] I've got to wear a Conan O 'Brien suit.

[916] That says, this is a man who means business.

[917] Now, Fizzy Wine Cooler probably kind of works.

[918] Yeah, it does.

[919] So an orange, and she had a pitch for the Cocoa, what?

[920] Cocozze.

[921] I like Co -Co -Zae.

[922] I like Conan Pompadour orange.

[923] I like Cocozay.

[924] But I just, I honestly don't see, and this is not me being hard on myself.

[925] This is me being completely honest.

[926] I don't see anyone linking me to a, product that's meant for socializing, having drinks.

[927] You know what I mean?

[928] I don't know.

[929] Who's going to say, let's get a co -cozay?

[930] Seriously, something.

[931] I think it's going to be funny.

[932] I think people will do it not to be, like, cool, but to be funny.

[933] Like, hey, I'll have a co -cozay, and an orange, fizzy drink shows up.

[934] Like, that's funny.

[935] I don't know that people buy liquor because it's funny.

[936] Yeah, maybe not.

[937] I don't think so.

[938] And so I think, like, a bubble gum cigarette.

[939] What?

[940] You know, what about like a pompadour wig for Halloween?

[941] Just like a one -time, one -seasonal thing?

[942] You're not going to make that much money.

[943] You'll make like $4.

[944] And then Gavin will not be happy.

[945] The best idea I've heard is a hair product.

[946] Yes.

[947] Like a pomade or something, a Conan pomade.

[948] Yeah.

[949] And that, I mean, but then again, I think I've been sticking with this hairstyle that I came up with.

[950] like in the 80s, just because I realized my hair could do it, and that's the only reason I did it.

[951] No one's ever emulated it.

[952] No one's ever said, you know, Jennifer Aniston, people wanted the Rachel.

[953] You know, George Clooney had that Caesar do, or whatever he had on ER and everybody wanted it.

[954] No one, I've been sticking with this for like 35 years.

[955] Not one person has ever said, get me some of that.

[956] No one's ever gone to a barber and said, give me a Conan.

[957] No one.

[958] Not one person.

[959] So why is anyone going to buy the Conan Pomade?

[960] They're not.

[961] There's not one product I can think of.

[962] And I implore my listeners, if you think there's a product that lines up with me. Yeah.

[963] Pitch it.

[964] Maybe I'll even cut you in.

[965] But I want it to be something realistic, not a joke.

[966] Like, I go toilet seat.

[967] You know, no. Okay.

[968] Why are you guys laughing?

[969] Furniture.

[970] No, no one wants to sit like Conan.

[971] What would the furniture be?

[972] I don't know.

[973] I was thinking about letting you.

[974] Kravitz, he just did a thing with, I think, Creighton barrel.

[975] He's Lenny Kravitz.

[976] He's so cool.

[977] He's cool.

[978] He is so cool.

[979] I'll buy anything Lenny Kravitz tells me to buy.

[980] Yeah.

[981] You know?

[982] Okay.

[983] Well, it seems a little extreme.

[984] I love Lenny Kravitz.

[985] Smoke detector.

[986] Yeah, that's great.

[987] I want the carbon monoxide detector Lenny Kravitz designed.

[988] No. I want one that's made that's approved.

[989] You know, by OSHA.

[990] Oh.

[991] Blaze says sunscreen.

[992] Oh.

[993] Sunscreen has been pitched.

[994] But again, I don't think anybody wants to look like me. I'm freckled.

[995] There's a lot of people who have your complexion who are like, what is the best sun protection?

[996] And then if they see your face on a bottle, they'll be like, that must be real good stuff.

[997] Yeah.

[998] Because he's still alive.

[999] Still alive.

[1000] I don't know.

[1001] We've got to crack this because I do want a product that's just selling out on shelves and the money's just rolling in and I'm going to get a Bentley.

[1002] And I'm going to wear a year.

[1003] yachting cap and just be an incredible douchebag, just drive around and be like, the money's just pouring in from the sunscreen, the pomade, and the Conan Zay, Coco Zay.

[1004] And I want to be really obnoxious about it, just constantly be dropping, you have no idea how much money's coming in from that sunscreen.

[1005] And guess what?

[1006] It doesn't even prevent cancer.

[1007] Oh, no. Yeah, we did something so it just doesn't even function properly.

[1008] You're saying this publicly?

[1009] Well, I shouldn't.

[1010] I forgot I forgot that this was a podcast.

[1011] Oh, okay.

[1012] I thought we were just talking in a car.

[1013] Sometimes I forget.

[1014] Listen, if I do come out with a sunscreen, I do promise it'll provide some protection.

[1015] Wow, you're really selling it.

[1016] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1017] The numbers, the SBF may be inaccurate, but by the time they track that down, I'll be out of the country.

[1018] Okay.

[1019] I'll say it's a 50 when it's like a 15, you know?

[1020] Wow.

[1021] But it'll smell like coconut.

[1022] Okay.

[1023] Thank you to all our reviewers today.

[1024] and if you'd like to leave us a review, please go to Apple Podcasts and rate and review five stars.

[1025] We might just read your review on the air.

[1026] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[1027] With Conan O 'Brien, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Gourley.

[1028] Produced by me, Matt Gourley.

[1029] Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Solitaroff, and Jeff Ross at Team Koko and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf.

[1030] Theme song by The White Stripes.

[1031] Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.

[1032] Take it away, Jimmy.

[1033] Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.

[1034] Engineering by Will Beckton.

[1035] Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Kahn.

[1036] You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode.

[1037] Got a question for Conan?

[1038] Call the Team Coco hotline at 323 -451 -2821 and leave a message.

[1039] It too could be featured on a future episode.

[1040] And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

[1041] This episode was produced and edited by me, Brett Morris.

[1042] This has been a team Coco production in association with Earwolf.