Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 4: Go Forth and Murder

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[2] We're supposed to say that for together?

[3] I don't know.

[4] We could, oh, we're doing it all over again.

[5] We have not fixed a thing.

[6] Take 37.

[7] That's the point of this show.

[8] Damn, you people.

[9] So obviously, the whole point of this is we're going back in time to revisit old episodes.

[10] And we, of course, now have all new commentary on our favorite moments.

[11] things that we want to correct, things that, you know, case updates, all that stuff.

[12] And we'll talk about everything that's changed along the way and reflect on the way things haven't changed.

[13] Yeah.

[14] So gather up your favorite pet grumer and crabby barista and artisanal baker and gather them around as we have a re -listening party.

[15] And we can all be day one listeners together.

[16] Yay.

[17] We are rewinding back to episode four of my favorite murder that came out on February 11th, 2016.

[18] I mean, where were you on February 11th, 2016 before this podcast recording?

[19] I don't know.

[20] I was, well, we were in my old apartment, and I guess the notes here said that I had just got new couches in my apartment.

[21] So apparently that's a conversation that we're having there.

[22] And I remember them, there were these gray bouncing.

[23] see the ones that I had just bought for like maybe 150 bucks off the super pregnant woman off Craigslist.

[24] And I was like really proud of them.

[25] They looked so grown up.

[26] Yeah, they were nice.

[27] They were really cool.

[28] Yeah.

[29] And I think they didn't squeak like the other ones did.

[30] Yeah, I think that's why I got them.

[31] That just reminded me, though, was like, I'm complaining about the couch squeaking, but that was back in my era where I used to shake the microphone all the time.

[32] And so people literally, listeners were.

[33] writing it and being like, you have to stop moving the microphone.

[34] Because we didn't have stands.

[35] We were holding the microphones.

[36] Yeah, and like laying on couches.

[37] One of my favorite facts that was found out about episode four is that this was a naughty weekly podcast at the time.

[38] There was a 12 -day gap between episode three and episode four.

[39] And it says in the notes, someone wrote, do you remember why?

[40] I mean, life.

[41] I had two jobs.

[42] You had two jobs.

[43] We kind of didn't know what we were doing.

[44] I also didn't know it mattered that much.

[45] Yeah, no. The whole monetization element, the business part, none of that was in play at all.

[46] I remember once, like before this, I found out that someone I knew paid their rent with podcasting, and I was shocked to hear that.

[47] It was like $1 ,000 a month in their apartment.

[48] And I was like, are you fucking kidding me?

[49] Yeah.

[50] How that's amazing.

[51] Right.

[52] And I can say, in fact, there's a little.

[53] line I say in this podcast episode that says that I joke about how I can't write off these couches I just bought because podcasting is not a money making venture.

[54] Everyone, don't quit your job.

[55] And you said, you never know.

[56] A rare moment of optimism and positivity coming out of my mouth.

[57] Yeah, it totally is.

[58] Like, yeah, it's wild.

[59] So this was just, this was just love and then real jobs were actually happening to.

[60] Yeah, we were making the time.

[61] We were trying, I was trying to do a Shonda Rhymes year of yes type of thing or I was just like, I don't like anything else in my life.

[62] I better do something.

[63] Yeah.

[64] Oh, God.

[65] Yeah, I was really unhappy as well at the time.

[66] It was rough.

[67] It was a weird, rough era.

[68] Yeah, I definitely felt like a pivotal moment in that I needed to start something new that felt good.

[69] That wasn't about, you know, money making or anything like that was just about fun.

[70] And this is, this was like a like a lifesaver for me in a lot of ways.

[71] Oh, well, me too, because my life was dark.

[72] It was dark shit.

[73] But also, yes, it was that kind of thing of like after we talked at that party and then had lunch, it was that kind of thing of like, yeah, I just want to talk about this.

[74] And I don't want to feel bad for talking about it.

[75] I want to talk to somebody that knows what I'm talking about so that we can go, oh my God, whatever.

[76] And, like, that alone, I think, is a, is, that was a dot that had not been connected for most true crime listeners or true crime fans.

[77] Yeah.

[78] It was very professional until these, these amateurs came around.

[79] Everybody had to keep it to themselves.

[80] Yeah.

[81] And then suddenly it was the great unleashing of, yeah, we want to talk about this too.

[82] Definitely.

[83] Oh, this was the first episode where we did Recommendations Corner.

[84] Oh, yeah.

[85] which is kind of great.

[86] It's not like we were like, oh, we have a big audience.

[87] We need to recommend some things.

[88] We were like, hey, do what we say from day one.

[89] All right.

[90] So here is the intro from episode four.

[91] That's Karen.

[92] I'm Georgia.

[93] That's Georgia.

[94] Two girls.

[95] One murder.

[96] Obsessed with true crime, both of us.

[97] With bad things.

[98] Bad things happening.

[99] We love it.

[100] We want to know all about it.

[101] never happened to us.

[102] And it turns out so to a lot of other people.

[103] Yeah.

[104] Because lots of people have been telling us about how much they like it.

[105] We got, we got a lot of emails from the last episodes of people telling us their town murders, which I love and it's like so exciting.

[106] And we haven't read them yet because we want to surprise each other with it.

[107] Yes.

[108] But so many, I would look at the first line in Gmail and it would say like these little things because I'm fucking curious and I want to know what they say.

[109] But so many people like, I didn't, I'm so, I was always so embarrassed that this is a thing that I was.

[110] into, which I'm like, what?

[111] I'm trying to talk to everyone about it.

[112] I know.

[113] Well, that's how I felt when I was younger.

[114] Yeah.

[115] Like, that I was like crazy.

[116] Or people would think that you wanted to murder people.

[117] Right, exactly.

[118] And then the second I started doing stand -up and every other stand -up comic knew every serial killer backwards and forwards.

[119] I was like, oh, I get it.

[120] I wonder what it is.

[121] Anxious people?

[122] Yeah.

[123] Probably.

[124] And it's so fascinating.

[125] It's like the worst of humanity.

[126] Yeah.

[127] I wonder if it's a little.

[128] CD -ish too.

[129] We're like, I need to know everything about this now.

[130] Yeah.

[131] And everything that's related to it.

[132] Yeah, please help help me prepare for when I run face -to -face into John Wayne Gasey.

[133] Because now you and I are going to be able to fucking beat up any serial killer murderer.

[134] I found a new podcast, not new.

[135] It's really old.

[136] But they talk about murderers and stuff a lot.

[137] Maybe I shouldn't plug it because then it's like, go ahead.

[138] No, it's really good.

[139] It's called, have he thinking sideways podcast?

[140] No, I've never heard of that.

[141] It's like a girl and two dudes.

[142] and they just talk about, like, weird shit.

[143] And a lot of it is murder.

[144] It's great.

[145] I like it.

[146] I started listening to Joe DeRosa and Pat Walsh's podcast.

[147] I'll see you in hell.

[148] Oh, my God.

[149] Which, because I had to drive home from San Francisco yesterday, six hours.

[150] So I listened to many.

[151] And it was really hilarious.

[152] I recommend that.

[153] What do they talk about?

[154] They talk about horror movies.

[155] They put on a horror movie, but then they just talk over it.

[156] You can't hear it or anything.

[157] They just tell you what movie it is and they talk about it incidentally as they have conversations.

[158] It sounds like it shouldn't work, but I bet it's fucking great.

[159] Well, it's so great because they both have these insane comprehensive encyclopedic cumulage of movies.

[160] So any tangent they go on, they know exactly who and what they're talking about, which, of course, it was a real sore spot for me. Yeah.

[161] As I, any time I bring up a subject, I'm like, you know the thing that happened that time?

[162] Hold on, hold on.

[163] Well, you need like the right person to fill in the blanks.

[164] Yes.

[165] And you're just like, oh, this is why I'm friends with you is because you, like, I was just rambling and you filled it in.

[166] and that's the best.

[167] That's what we do, right?

[168] It's totally what we do.

[169] I was going to make you say the last part.

[170] Didn't work.

[171] I guess I'm not good at that part.

[172] That's on this podcast.

[173] It's a two.

[174] Thank you.

[175] I'm really excited audience because Georgia got no couches.

[176] And when I was listening to our first episode, there's a sound in the background at the entire time.

[177] It's me squeaking on my couch.

[178] Like, I'm just constantly moving around.

[179] Oh, it was a leather couch.

[180] It was making.

[181] you laugh so hard.

[182] Oh, God, I didn't do it notice.

[183] So that's a, but no, it's all cleared up.

[184] I got these for podcasting, so they don't make background noise and podcasting.

[185] Perfect podcasting couch.

[186] You can write them off.

[187] Wait, not that I make any money on podcasting.

[188] This is not a money -making venture, everyone.

[189] Don't quit your job.

[190] You never know.

[191] You don't ever know.

[192] You don't ever know.

[193] You don't ever know.

[194] Like getting murdered.

[195] Yep.

[196] Should we jump into it or should we talk about making a murderer?

[197] Have you been reading all the making a murderer theories?

[198] Well, the natural backlash has happened.

[199] Yeah.

[200] Pretty sure he's guilty now.

[201] Are you?

[202] I'm pretty sure he's guilty now.

[203] Are you really?

[204] Yes.

[205] I think that's very adult of you to be able to change positions.

[206] Yeah.

[207] It doesn't feel good to do that.

[208] Here's the thing, and this is the one thing I agree with.

[209] In general, I think he's innocent and I think very bad things are happening in that state.

[210] I think people, there's a natural back.

[211] when you get kind of spoon fed an answer, not an answer, but like a villain and like, here's really what happened.

[212] And they're leaving just enough pieces free so you can put the mystery together yourself.

[213] And then everyone thinks they got it and they're on it.

[214] So there's always the hot take of like, no, actually.

[215] Right.

[216] Because everyone wants to know details.

[217] Right.

[218] That's the problem.

[219] The people who are looking up details are like, oh, this documentary was really one -sided and you guys left so much shit out, which makes me suspect of you.

[220] Yeah.

[221] And suspect of your conclusion.

[222] God, making a murderer was just as big of a thing.

[223] It was on par with the staircase.

[224] There was really, it was like boom, boom, boom with those HBO documentaries.

[225] They were good.

[226] And then serial, of course, like huge fucking shout out to the podcast.

[227] Serial, of course, were like, I just don't think that this would exist without it.

[228] No, no, no. So that was going on.

[229] People were, like, suddenly realizing that there was a big interest in true crime.

[230] So in episode four, I go first and tell.

[231] a story that it is truly still in my top five worst, most upsetting stories.

[232] And there's a documentary called Cropsey that was made about the story that's amazing and please go watch it and rent it.

[233] I think we talk about it.

[234] The story, like this is one of those onion layer stories where it just keeps, it starts bad and gets worse and then gets crazy and then you're like what are we even talking about?

[235] Yeah, it's straight horror.

[236] It's like what horror stories are based on.

[237] And the original, I mean, there's definitely documentaries about the exposure of Willow Brick Hospital and all of that, that story in and of itself.

[238] But then this wrinkle of the Staten Island local serial killer, child molester, like, so horrifying.

[239] And this is a person who had been arrested for attempted rape.

[240] and he was driving a school bus.

[241] Yeah, that's what it was like back then.

[242] Truly, like, just illogically bad.

[243] Yeah.

[244] So here is Karen telling you the story of Cropsey.

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[265] Goodbye.

[266] Uh, hey, Karen.

[267] Hey.

[268] What's your favorite murder?

[269] Well, I thought it would be good that I would do.

[270] a little damage control since on our last episode I was so sloppy and inaccurate talking about Cropsey.

[271] That was one of the ones we were literally guessing what the name of the thing was I was trying to talk about.

[272] We let everyone know that this is not an official report of anything that's happened.

[273] We're not doctors.

[274] You're looking in the wrong place.

[275] We're not therapists.

[276] But the story has all of the elements of murder, you know, creeper, urban legend story.

[277] Everything I love.

[278] It's got a mental hospital.

[279] It's got the woods.

[280] It's almost like, that's too much if someone had written this thing.

[281] Yeah.

[282] It's like you can pick one or the other, but you can't have a mental hospital in the woods.

[283] It's crazy.

[284] I haven't seen until long.

[285] Tell me everything.

[286] Okay.

[287] So this is, the story of Cropsey was an urban legend on Staten Island.

[288] And it was, there was a hospital named Willowbrook.

[289] And it is a hospital for mentally challenged children.

[290] And they built it in, say, like, the early 40s.

[291] And it is on Staten Island, set in the woods.

[292] It's already creepy as fuck.

[293] It was a state institution, and it was built for 4 ,000 patients, but by 1965, it had 6 ,000 children in it.

[294] It was built for how many?

[295] 4 ,000.

[296] So it was way over capacity.

[297] and and this was back when people used to dump their children and it didn't matter if they had Down syndrome or if they were very, very, you know, there was something really wrong with them.

[298] Or they had like cerebral palsy and they would just be like later days.

[299] Tons of cerebral palsy kids were completely intelligent and 100 % there just dumped.

[300] And so what ended up happening was, of course, because it's like a state -funded hospital so it's over, it's over overflowing with patients.

[301] What's the order I'm looking for us.

[302] I got it.

[303] It's good.

[304] Go with it.

[305] Understaffed, overpopulated.

[306] And so they end up, a reporter finally goes in.

[307] When we talked about it on the last episode, I said something really grandiose.

[308] Like Robert Kennedy shut it down, Harold de Rivera.

[309] Heralda Rivera.

[310] So Kennedy saw it in the 68 and said, this is a snake pit.

[311] This is a disgrace.

[312] and they started doing all these reviews.

[313] And what had happened was all these children being in this close proximity, they found out it was like they were just in rooms, naked, being hosed down.

[314] Horrible.

[315] There's no lighting.

[316] It's crazy.

[317] And a bunch of them started getting hepatitis.

[318] So then they had medical studies where they were testing hepatitis on these children.

[319] Like, might as well do some fucking scientific testing on this.

[320] Exactly.

[321] And they were basically giving them all hepatitis.

[322] They were getting it.

[323] It was so anyway, with all of this, these social workers, finally went in there, saw the conditions.

[324] They got a reporter in there, and that's what led.

[325] So a woman started writing exposés for, like, local newspaper.

[326] And then that's how Geraldo got on the scene.

[327] He worked as an investigative reporter for W .A .B .C. in New York.

[328] So he went there, and they did an expose story that ended up winning a P -Body because it was so.

[329] And they just kind of, like, they went when their doctors were gone and stuff, right?

[330] Or the doctors let them in?

[331] I don't know about the Geraldo part.

[332] I don't know how he got in.

[333] But we talked about this before.

[334] When you see the videotape and there is a documentary called Willowbrook, it's something like the Great Shame or something like that.

[335] It gets mentioned a lot in all the research.

[336] But he basically went in and like the only lighting was the light on the camera.

[337] It's so creepy.

[338] It looks like, like, American horror story, like asylum.

[339] Totally.

[340] Just exactly what you think it's supposed to be.

[341] Like, it would be like.

[342] 30 kids in a room, naked, sitting on the floor, a cement floor, rocking back and forth.

[343] And then they talked to one guy and he was like, one of the patients and he's like, I have cerebral palsy and I am completely mentally functioning on 100%.

[344] Yeah.

[345] And I'm trapped in here.

[346] Nightmare.

[347] So that alone is a nightmare.

[348] That's Willowbrook Nightmare.

[349] Heraldo being in it isn't great.

[350] But it ends up, they had, it, with all that and the exposé, they passed legislation, but, you know, about like, um, the rights of, uh, civil, civil rights thing for patients and stuff, all this stuff.

[351] Well, so then, the urban legend pops up.

[352] So they ended up closing it in 1987, but they basically closed it in 72 or four.

[353] After this expose, they came out, they shipped all of the patients to all different hospitals around and there was only like 200 patients left.

[354] So it was basically empty.

[355] And that's when the urban legends started where it was there's a mental patient that's still on the grounds because there's a tunnel system underneath the hospital.

[356] And he's living in the tunnels at night he comes out and steals children.

[357] And that was the big thing on Staten Island in the 80s.

[358] Oh my God.

[359] How fucking terrifying to live in Staten Island.

[360] Crazy, right?

[361] And so the high school kids, the big thing was go through the woods and get to the mental hospital and like touch the wall of it or whatever.

[362] Absolutely not.

[363] And Cropsies out.

[364] there with you.

[365] So, and there's a great documentary called Cropsey where they go into all this, this, they have all the information that you need if you're fascinated because it's really good and fascinating.

[366] So just imagine like parents in the 80s being like, you'd be good or we're, or Cropsey's going to come get you.

[367] Yeah.

[368] And Staten Island, you're like, well, actually that could happen.

[369] So anyway, so now, now we're going to introduce a new character in this story.

[370] Okay.

[371] And it's a man named Andre Rand.

[372] And he was, he's described in one of the pages that I read as a mentally incompetent, convicted sex offender.

[373] That's fun.

[374] So he's got it all.

[375] Yeah.

[376] And he was a janitor at Willowbrook from 19606 to 1968.

[377] I feel like anyone you're going to hire to be a janitor there, you have to be like, no, you're fired because why, like, you're crazy, clearly.

[378] Yes.

[379] So this guy gets the job in 66.

[380] Well, in 69, he, so he works there from 66 to 68.

[381] In 69, he attempts to rape a nine -year -old girl.

[382] and just by chance a cop car is driving by.

[383] He takes a nine -year -old girl into his car and to an empty lot and takes off his clothes.

[384] Her clothes are off.

[385] A cop car drives by.

[386] Sometimes life works well, you know?

[387] I mean, yeah, go on.

[388] This is an upside.

[389] This is one upside and it's hideous story.

[390] He gets sentenced to four years.

[391] He only serves 10 months.

[392] You know, the classic scenario.

[393] I hate everything.

[394] This is why we have to.

[395] do this podcast is because our fucking penal system blows.

[396] We get, because we got to talk about it.

[397] We get, we're going to affect change.

[398] Oh, clearly.

[399] By laying on these couches.

[400] I would have gotten 11 months if it was today because of us.

[401] So, uh, he gets out and then, um, that would be 69, 71.

[402] In 72, a nine -year -old girl named Alice Brererer disappears off Staten Island.

[403] Um, then in 1981, nine years later, a seven -year -old girl named Holly Ann Hughes goes missing and the eyewitnesses saw her with Rand.

[404] No way.

[405] And she's never seen again.

[406] And then in 1983, this is a real highlight for me. He picks up 11 children from a YMCA in a school bus, takes them in a White Castle, and then drives them to Newark Airport for five hours.

[407] And when he gets back, he gets arrested for kidnapping.

[408] Who the fuck is letting a guy has been in prison for attempted rape, drive a fucking bus of children.

[409] A school bus.

[410] Come on, the 80s.

[411] He rapes a 9 -year -old, tries to rape a 9 -year -old and then goes ahead and gets him job driving his school bus.

[412] The 80s needs to go to prison for fucking.

[413] So, this was back before we realized children were constantly in danger.

[414] So, in 83, an 11 -year -old name, Tahit Jackson, disappears walking to the store.

[415] And this is 12 days after Rand is released.

[416] I bet he was buying cigarettes for him.

[417] his mom.

[418] Like, I bet that's what, you know, that's the 80s.

[419] I think that's what all of it, this is, because Staten Island is not that big.

[420] No. And I think it's like run down to the store for Mommy.

[421] And it's probably, one of the girls lived in a motel is bad news anyway.

[422] Okay.

[423] So that was 11 days after he got out of prison for the kidnapping?

[424] 12 days.

[425] He does that.

[426] And that's the same year he did the, oh, so he did the YMCA school bus trick and then gets out of prison 12 days later, this kid goes missing.

[427] A girl, it's a girl.

[428] Um, and then, then in 84, a 22 -year -old guy who was a really low IQ goes missing.

[429] And then in 87, a girl named Jennifer Schweiger goes missing, and she has Down syndrome.

[430] And several eyewitnesses saw this guy, Andre Rand, leading her by the hand toward the woods.

[431] I mean, that alone, there's your poster for the horror movie.

[432] So they start searching.

[433] for her and after 35 days they find her nude body of a shallow grave on the Willowbrook property and then a couple feet you know several feet away Andre Rand has a makeshift campsite he's been living on the Willowbrook grounds and the whole urban legend is true and they eventually they charge him with kidnapping in first degree murder but they can't make the murder stick and he goes to prison for two years no no no they get him for first degree kidnapping and then they bring back and then once he's in jail for that he gets like 20 years then in 2004 he put him on trial for the Holly Hughes disappearance and he's convicted of kidnapping and he gets now he's set to get out in 2035 or something like that when he's 95 so he's in for good they also linked him to the disappearance of Ethel Atwell and the rape murder of Shinley who are both Willowbrook AIDS so oh my God that sucks man He's a beast.

[434] And it's basically the most fascinating story of that it all was true.

[435] What a bummer to go to work and then you get killed.

[436] Like, don't go in the woods.

[437] Don't walk to the store by yourself.

[438] But you're like, I'm just going to work.

[439] Just going to work.

[440] Just trying to pay my rent.

[441] Oh, fuck.

[442] So that's, that's Cropsey.

[443] That's a good murder.

[444] I mean, what's good about it is the worst thing I've ever heard in my life.

[445] You know, that's the stats on this show is like, what's the worst thing you've ever heard in your life?

[446] I mean, don't you want to, why hasn't anyone gone into the tunnels in that hospital and, like, dug around archaeologically and tried to find...

[447] Karen, 100th episode.

[448] Let's fucking do it.

[449] We get a school bus full of 11 children and drive them to Staten Island.

[450] Pay palace the money to get plane tickets to Staten Island and to not stay on Staten Island because fuck that.

[451] We're staying in Manhattan.

[452] We got to stay in Manhattan.

[453] We got to see Hamilton.

[454] Yeah.

[455] We got to go to the shoes stores.

[456] Yeah.

[457] Then Cropsey.

[458] Then Cropsey.

[459] Yeah.

[460] Oh, brother.

[461] I will not walk through those tunnels.

[462] My suggestion of our 100th episode, we take a walk through those Cropsey Hospital.

[463] Obviously didn't happen.

[464] We're aiming for episode 500 now.

[465] We're going to do episode 1 ,000.

[466] Yeah, exactly.

[467] Which means never.

[468] Yeah.

[469] The reason I covered this story in episode four is because in episode two, I tried to kind of tell you.

[470] you about it a little bit and did a bad job, which is the recurring theme, apparently, of my side of this podcast.

[471] Fix it.

[472] That's what this podcast is called.

[473] Make up for that shit you did.

[474] Yeah.

[475] And back then we pick, I think in the very beginning, we'd pick stories.

[476] I mean, for me and for this next story that I tell that has stuck with me for so long that I haven't been able to talk to anyone about.

[477] And that's what's so fun about this podcast is I finally get to be like, can you?

[478] believe this happened and then this happened because I've been keeping it to myself this whole time.

[479] Yes.

[480] And it's been keeping me up all night and I can't stop thinking about it.

[481] So like this is a great way to get that to like exercise those demons.

[482] Yeah, we almost, I mean, totally I did it that way too where I just went back and was like, what are all the times that I have traumatized myself on Wikipedia?

[483] Late night, late night.

[484] And by myself going, oh my God.

[485] Can you believe this?

[486] How is no one talking about this?

[487] Yeah.

[488] Yeah.

[489] That was really.

[490] cathartic.

[491] Yeah, cathartic.

[492] So as I said in the episode, Andre Rand was only ever convicted on kidnapping charges that involved two children, 12 -year -old Jennifer Schweiger, whose shallow grave was found near Rand's campsite and a missing seven -year -old girl named Holly Ann Hughes.

[493] Turns out that Andre Rand is still alive in jail.

[494] He'll be eligible for parole in March of 2037.

[495] when he's 93, but he's also connected to several unsolved cases.

[496] And I mention a few of them.

[497] So 10 -year -old Taise Jackson, 22 -year -old Hank Coforio, 44 -year -old Shin Lee, and 42 -year -old Ethel Atwell.

[498] But it is suspected Rand is linked to multiple other cases, including cases around.

[499] the disappearances of multiple children on Staten Island.

[500] Oh, my God.

[501] Horrifying.

[502] So horrifying.

[503] Okay, so my story this week is the murder of Michelle Wallace.

[504] My source was Forensic Files Season 9, Episode 4, where I saw this for the first time and just was so blown away by the monster that perpetrated this crime.

[505] And it's just, it's stuck with me for so many years.

[506] So here is the story of Michelle Wallace.

[507] well what's interesting about both of ours is that the murderer in question still alive in prison oh still alive how are these it's like isn't it weird that this person it's like in your mind they're like oh they did these awful things that long ago they're dead nope no live they had dinner tonight they watched some tv they watched some tv yeah at a conversation with the guard perhaps they played some bones probably play bones that what people do in prison i don't know what bones is.

[508] It's Domino's.

[509] Oh.

[510] I've got the, yeah, what do you think he had for dinner?

[511] Sounds gross.

[512] Chicken nuggets?

[513] Yeah.

[514] Yeah.

[515] He had dinner, you got.

[516] Yeah, it's better than what I've had for dinner.

[517] And he's a monster.

[518] And he's a monster.

[519] He's a monster.

[520] Speaking of monsters.

[521] Okay, my favorite murder is that of Michelle Wallace, Michelle with one out.

[522] And I remember seeing, I love cold cases.

[523] Like, that's, I love when murders get solved, of course.

[524] Yeah.

[525] But cold cases are my, like, passion in my dream.

[526] Passion of people getting away with shit.

[527] Because it's just so curious.

[528] I'm just so curious.

[529] Yeah.

[530] But I also like that the answer's never like satisfying.

[531] It's always like, that's just some fucking janitor asshole did this to all these people.

[532] That's such a bummer.

[533] I want to be like a monster or something.

[534] Okay.

[535] So, and I remember watching a cold hiss of this a long time ago.

[536] And two things that stuck out to me. Okay.

[537] She's a 25 year old photographer.

[538] This is 1974.

[539] She lives in Chicago.

[540] She's like this free spirit photographer.

[541] and she travels the world and taking photos and taking odd jobs and stuff.

[542] And she goes to, in 1974, goes to Oregon, spends a couple days in the Rocky Mountains, just taking some photos.

[543] I think I've seen this one.

[544] Yeah.

[545] Is it a forensic files?

[546] I think there's a forensic files on it.

[547] She's leaving the Rocky Mountains and she does the classic 1970s, I want to get murdered move.

[548] Do you know what that is?

[549] Is it hitchhiking?

[550] fucking hitchhikers.

[551] She picks up hitchhikers.

[552] Oh, she picks them up.

[553] She picks up two dudes.

[554] Oh, no. What?

[555] One girl alone picks up two dudes.

[556] What the f -se?

[557] Seventies and 80s.

[558] They're going to fucking prison.

[559] Yeah.

[560] What did they look like?

[561] I wondered that she was like, this is fine.

[562] Yeah.

[563] I don't know.

[564] Was one really short or something?

[565] Listen, short guys are strong.

[566] Don't pick up anyone.

[567] And they're mad.

[568] And they're angry.

[569] Yeah.

[570] So we're going to get a lot of hate mail for this.

[571] No, no, it's fine.

[572] I'm short.

[573] It's fine.

[574] So she drops one of them off at the bar, this one dude, and then, of course, she has never seen again.

[575] Then the guy who she dropped off, a couple, like, finds out this girl's missing.

[576] And he was like, wait a second.

[577] She dropped me off.

[578] And then the guy I was with, who I barely knew, said, I'm going to, can you take me to my car, actually?

[579] And the guy was like, I didn't think he had a car.

[580] So I thought that was strange.

[581] So they start looking, his name is Roy.

[582] Sorry, the guy that got dropped off of the bar is the one that says that.

[583] Yeah, he's like, I didn't think Roy, as his name, had a car.

[584] Okay.

[585] And he's like, yeah, why did you let her leave with him?

[586] Fuck.

[587] You know, like right there.

[588] You could have fucking fixed it.

[589] Anyways, Roy Mielsen, me, Melonson.

[590] Melonson.

[591] Should have looked that up before.

[592] Roy Melanson, he's a drifter and a convicted rapist.

[593] But he got out after very short time.

[594] Sure.

[595] Why keep him in?

[596] Yeah, why keep him in?

[597] Yeah, why keep him in?

[598] he knows to kill the person so they can't ID him.

[599] You know, it's like, that's how you do this.

[600] That's how you progress.

[601] I'm having a panic attack.

[602] He's found with her driver's license, camping equipment, car keys, and pawn tickets for her camera.

[603] And this is one of my favorite parts of why it stuck with me. And I can't fucking find this online now.

[604] Some reason it's not up there anymore.

[605] They find the camera at the pawn shop.

[606] They develop the film.

[607] It's all her photos in the Rocky Mountains.

[608] The very last photo is Roy sitting on.

[609] on a bed behind him laying down as a naked woman and it's it's not her so he has her you know it's like that's the proof yeah she she's missing and you robbed her and you took a photo of yourself you fucking idiot and i can't find that photo online i know it was in the forensic files or whatever i totally remember this episode because yeah because it's so freaky so freaky and then in 79 so what is that five six years later five years later five years later This is the other part that's really fucked up and it stuck with me. They find just a scalp with two brown -haired braids on it, like a scalp only.

[610] Oh, where did they do it?

[611] Some hiker found it near where she had picked up the hitchhikers.

[612] And then, so 12 years goes by, nobody.

[613] This woman Kathy Young, who becomes like the sheriff in town, or I'm sure I'm saying that incorrect, she's not.

[614] I'm sure she's much higher up.

[615] She hires this, this company called Necro Search.

[616] Oh.

[617] Which I remember thinking at the time, that's what I want to do.

[618] I want to work there for a living.

[619] Like, I just want to, like, volunteer.

[620] Yeah.

[621] Volunteer.

[622] I just want to follow them like the Grateful Dead.

[623] I'm going to be the receptionist as Necro Search.

[624] I can be like, Necro Search can help you.

[625] What's your, what's your emergency?

[626] It's going crossbones.

[627] But they like, they have uncovered what they, what they do.

[628] is they find, and they're really good at uncovering clandestine gravesites.

[629] So it's like, you badass motherfuckers.

[630] Is that, how?

[631] Do they have like a, they have like a farm.

[632] They have a farm where they like bury pigs, dead pigs and kind of understand the soil changes.

[633] And like what, you know, what doesn't, what doesn't look right out in the nature?

[634] What is man made?

[635] What is placed there?

[636] These sorts of things.

[637] And like, what is the decomposition of this pot?

[638] of soil or dirt or like you know these these kinds of things what has been dug up in the past 10 years even that's different from the soil next to it do animals scalp people and keep the braids for themselves exactly stuff like that well here's what happened is they took her braids and did some forensic analysis on them and found the leaves of a tree in that that was in a certain area of that those mountains.

[639] So they went there.

[640] They spread out on that area where the trees are day two fucking find her bones.

[641] What was left of them.

[642] Wow.

[643] I know.

[644] These guys, they've uncovered over 200 and, they've taken on over 235 cases.

[645] I don't know how many they've found, but these are the good guys.

[646] Necro search.

[647] I love that.

[648] I know.

[649] I bet at a party we would corner these people and I bet they get kicked out of parties a lot though.

[650] Oh my I would never leave a necro -searcher alone.

[651] No, can we get, can we have a request if anyone knows a necro -searcher to, I think they're in San Francisco to please have them be on the podcast.

[652] I just think that's insanely fascinating.

[653] It's almost like having x -ray vision.

[654] Like you can look at a forest or a like, what, you know, a ditch and know what's wrong and what, you know, what's off.

[655] Well, the woman who found the bones was like they were all, they were all searching for two days.

[656] She goes off the trail to take a piss in the world.

[657] woods, which too big it shouldn't be allowed if you're looking for us.

[658] Hey, she's still human.

[659] Yeah.

[660] And she looks, and there's a ray of light flashing on a gold tooth.

[661] She finds the skull.

[662] Oh, that's the Lord's work.

[663] Sorry, this is where my Christian part comes in.

[664] This is it.

[665] I know, not before she dies.

[666] And when he, no, no, no, it doesn't belong there.

[667] Well, it's at the bottom of a ravine.

[668] So, like, someone straight toss person over.

[669] Like didn't even, didn't even bury her.

[670] Just threw her in.

[671] Tossed her over.

[672] So they take Roy Mielenson to trial.

[673] He is found guilty in 93.

[674] So she gets killed in 74, found guilty in 93.

[675] Since then, and I didn't know this until I started looking up to it, he's been convicted for another murder, which happened 50 days before Michelle's murder in Napa in 1974.

[676] Yeah.

[677] Woman who was stabbed to death at a bar she owned.

[678] And they found a cigarette butt that had his DNA on it.

[679] Put it through the fucking codis, the most amazing thing in the world.

[680] Found a DNA match.

[681] Another woman in Louisiana who fucking, ugh, it's gruesome.

[682] So he's done it multiple times.

[683] Yeah, at least twice that they know of through DNA.

[684] But they're not taking the third one to trial because, it's too expensive to do all these things for which sucks for that family yes you know but they know it's him yeah this now they know it's him but he's going to go to jail anyway so their their rationale is he's there right which is why napa took them took him to trial is because he's he can be eligible for parole which i think is fucking hilarious for michel's murder in like the next 10 years eligible for parole so they convicted him to make sure that if that ever happens oh that's good he has to be extradited to California.

[685] Yeah, it's very strange the way the laws still work like that where it's just kind of like, oh, and then we let him out again.

[686] Right.

[687] And then, you know what?

[688] He was real good inside, so we let him out again.

[689] Yeah.

[690] We're like, well, at the trial, like one of this jurors sneezed Bronx, so he's out.

[691] Yeah.

[692] And we don't have enough money to try him again and we think we're going to lose.

[693] And we'll probably won't warn anybody just to keep it interesting.

[694] The good thing about all of this is that hitchhiking pretty much does exist anymore.

[695] Thank God.

[696] We've talked about this before.

[697] Like, I don't even understand, like, I know it's like an innocent time and shit, but like, I don't think that's common sense any time in your life, like in any point in history.

[698] No. I mean, think of like if you were at a party with your friends' friends, you probably wouldn't want to be in a car with any of those people.

[699] Yeah.

[700] And those are like cold.

[701] So imagine if it's just anybody driving down the street.

[702] Have you ever Is that negative of me?

[703] No. You don't want to be a party with your friends?

[704] No, I've never hitchhiked.

[705] I've never done anything like that.

[706] I think I have when I was a kid, but like with a friend and I think the person like, it was like an Irvine where it's just like the safest place.

[707] But it was idiotic and I think the person who picked us up like yelled at us.

[708] I did pick up to girls who were in junior high.

[709] We were driving home.

[710] We were driving up to Petaluma from L .A., me and my ex.

[711] and we stopped at a gas station and there were two little girls that couldn't have been more than 14 years old sitting at this gas station.

[712] It was two in the morning.

[713] And they were trying to make phone calls.

[714] The whole time we were getting gas, I was watching them.

[715] And they were trying to make phone calls and they were doing this stuff.

[716] Two in the morning.

[717] Two in the morning.

[718] And I was watching them.

[719] And the guy that worked there wasn't, seemed a little creepy.

[720] Yeah.

[721] And he was kind of like coming out and looking at them and going back in and people would pull in.

[722] And I was just the whole time staring at them.

[723] And finally, when we went to leave, I was like, drive over there.

[724] And we pulled up and I was like, do you guys need a ride home?

[725] And they were like, yep, and immediately got in the car.

[726] And I was like, first of all, never get into a car with people.

[727] And then secondly, did you go to Luce Sutton Grammar School?

[728] And they both went to my sister's grammar school.

[729] And I got names.

[730] And they kind of smelled.

[731] It was like, clearly they were from the bad side of town.

[732] And they got like, they probably snuck out.

[733] Right.

[734] And then got stuck somewhere and then ended up at this gas station out by the freeway where I was like.

[735] And it's not walkable.

[736] No. It was, it was, it's like five miles away from any neighborhood.

[737] And it's all farmland and shit.

[738] Yeah.

[739] So we dropped them off and I, I was like, don't ever do this again.

[740] And they were like, hey, ha, and then bring them in and they will.

[741] Where are they now?

[742] I wonder if they remember you.

[743] No, they both own that gas station.

[744] Because of my setting them on their way.

[745] Yeah.

[746] Correctly.

[747] Good job.

[748] Thank you.

[749] Well, I just want to take a second to brag about something good I did for the community.

[750] Do you mind?

[751] No, I love it.

[752] Thank you.

[753] What if they went home and killed their mom?

[754] Can I turn this into a bummer real quick?

[755] They were the ones that were all along.

[756] Yep.

[757] That's a good twisteroo.

[758] That is.

[759] That's write a book.

[760] They went home and killed their mom.

[761] Oh, I'm dead inside.

[762] Is it satisfying to realize that you really have liked cold cases from the very beginning?

[763] You didn't just make that up in episode 85?

[764] I was really going after them.

[765] I mean, it's not a cold case anymore.

[766] thankfully, but it was a cold case for a very long time.

[767] And the way it got solved is amazing.

[768] So the book that I have since recommended a million times in this podcast called No Stone Unturned by Steve Jackson talks extensively about this case because it's a book about necrosearch and what a huge part of solving this case and finding evidence they were for this story.

[769] And so for the updates, as I said in the initial episode, Roy Melanson was found.

[770] of murdering Michelle Wallace in 1993, 19 years after Michelle's murder.

[771] And that's why we do cold cases because they can still be solved.

[772] There's still time.

[773] And I mentioned in my initial story that Melanson was convicted of two other murders, but I didn't give the victim's names.

[774] So in 2009 and 2010, DNA evidence connected Melanson with two other unsolved murders, those of 51 -year -old Anita Andrews in Napa, California, and 24 -year -old Charlotte Sowerwin in Walker, Louisiana.

[775] And those cases are also talked about in no stone unturned.

[776] And Melanson was only tried for the murder of Anita Andrews in 2011 and received an additional life imprisonment term.

[777] And Melanson died on May 22nd, 2020 at the age of 83 in prison.

[778] And actually, which is, you know, this is part of it is law enforcement agencies are still trying to review cold cases around the kind of.

[779] country to connect Melanson to any of those cold cases I talk about all the time.

[780] That is a really creepy thing to some of these serial killers and some of these murderers are, they're interpreted by police as one -off, like rage killers or whatever, yeah, crimes of passion type of thing.

[781] Yeah.

[782] When they find out and uncovered, no, this has been going on for a long time.

[783] And actually, it's not just in this jurisdiction or this area, that really is the scariest reveal or it could be any cold case from anywhere in the country right okay so here is our first listener hometown story so exciting that is so exciting e allen the stories from e allen can you please comment and let us know if that's you we need to give you all the credit and like send you merchant ship because yeah for real right that's somebody who you came up with the idea of tell us your hometown i gave out my personal email you gave out don't almost said it And then people actually responded, and E. Allen is the person who was like, this is the example of what we want people to be doing.

[784] Right.

[785] So you deserve all the credit.

[786] We need to hook you up and shout you out.

[787] Yeah.

[788] And if you only want to remain E. Allen, that's your business.

[789] That's fine, too.

[790] But E. Allen, let us know.

[791] Let us know.

[792] But E. Allen, I gave you my personal email address.

[793] So I feel like it's only for that you give us your PO box so we can send you a stay sexy and don't get murdered shirt.

[794] It's like, yeah, and I want your fucking phone number.

[795] I want to read one of our, so at the end of the show, we like to do your favorite or your town, no, we do your town murder.

[796] Yeah.

[797] So either we'll have a guest tell us a story or we're asking you guys to send us your stories.

[798] Should we start my favorite murder Gmail?

[799] I probably should.

[800] Sure.

[801] Let's do it.

[802] My favorite murder Gmail.

[803] And then there's also, um, there's also a Facebook group.

[804] So you can start.

[805] Facebook page, we call it.

[806] Facebook page.

[807] Group page.

[808] I think it's a group.

[809] I don't know what I said.

[810] Last time you just called it plain old Facebook page and it made me laugh really hard.

[811] We have Facebook page.

[812] We have Facebook page called my favorite murder and you can tell your story on the front page on the front.

[813] Like tell everyone your shit and like you guys should like bond over it and stuff.

[814] I feel like I should also start a Twitter account.

[815] Maybe this is business that you guys.

[816] is what I need to hear about, but I should because it seems like that's also a good way for people to.

[817] You're really good at that and it stresses me out to start from zero like from zero followers.

[818] I'm really good at starting Twitter.

[819] No, you're good at Twitter.

[820] Oh, thanks.

[821] It's my passion.

[822] I'm really bad.

[823] I started like a year ago because I hated it and I hate it now because I...

[824] It's a difficult exercise.

[825] Yeah.

[826] It's just it's can you handle putting things out there and wanting something in return and not getting it.

[827] No. Well, or can you?

[828] Because you do it.

[829] And then you get stuff.

[830] It's true.

[831] I do get stuff out of it.

[832] Okay.

[833] Okay.

[834] Yeah.

[835] Start one.

[836] Let's do that.

[837] Okay.

[838] By this point that people are listening, it's going to be up anyways.

[839] Okay.

[840] We made a whole file.

[841] Should we, let's see.

[842] All right.

[843] I'm just going to, I'm going to close my eyes and scroll and pick one.

[844] Great.

[845] And if it sucks, then we'll delete it and start over.

[846] Okay.

[847] Oh, my favorite murder, Adam Walsh case.

[848] Here we go.

[849] Oh, yeah.

[850] This is from E. Allen.

[851] very fucking long.

[852] Ethan Allen, the furniture maker?

[853] Ethan Allen.

[854] Hello, Georgia.

[855] Big fan.

[856] What a great podcast.

[857] My info relates to the Adam Walsh, who was abducted in 81 from a mall in Hollywood, Florida.

[858] In 1978, my dad had this great idea to move our family to Florida to get away from the brutal cold of western Pennsylvania.

[859] His growing paranoia and black ice phobias that killed my social life.

[860] Oh, I thought he was going to say killed my.

[861] We're not allowed to leave the house.

[862] Can I skip over shit?

[863] Does that do?

[864] I think so.

[865] By 1980, I found my first job at the Hollywood Mall, uh -oh, in Woolworths working at the snack bar, free pretzels and ice cream.

[866] But sadly, the icing machine was always on the fritz.

[867] The mall was close enough to our house that I could ride my bike to it in about 15 minutes.

[868] I remember that it was an indoor mall with a lot of tropical plants, pastel colors, herds of seniors, and totally 80s vibe.

[869] The location of Adam Walsh's abduction was the Sears department store at the Hollywood Mall.

[870] Now, I wasn't working July 27, 1981, the day when a six -year -old, Adam was abducted.

[871] But the news coverage was non -staffed beginning that evening.

[872] From what I remember, Adam's dad, John Walsh, was the police top suspect to begin with.

[873] There was lots of silent and not silent judgments from neighbors and community people being, but him and his wife, Reeves.

[874] By the way, they are still married with new replacement kids, he says.

[875] Oh, no. That's the joke we made, though, right?

[876] Yeah.

[877] We made that about Jean Vanay, right?

[878] I think we opened the door on that, yeah.

[879] Right.

[880] have some replacement kids.

[881] Oh, my, yeah.

[882] Oh, right.

[883] Sounds pretty harsh, though, when you read it back.

[884] Yeah.

[885] Okay, so here's the freaky part, he says.

[886] My mom worked locally and came home for lunch that day.

[887] On her way back to work that afternoon, when she had to drive right by the mall.

[888] She remembers being tailgated towards the freeway.

[889] The person eventually pulled around her to get by.

[890] It was to the point of her getting a good look at the vehicle and thinking the person was really in a big hurry.

[891] When the news of Adam's disappearance was on every local TV station, the police begged anyone with infotocall.

[892] tip reported by witness that they saw Adam being pushed into a blue van by a blonde man when he was abducted.

[893] When we heard the info about the blue van news, my mom started screaming that the blue van had been tailgating her that day.

[894] I can remember how crazy and gross and creepy it felt.

[895] She ended up calling the police and giving them the information.

[896] It's like a month later, they find Adam's head in a canal chopped off with a machete and another part of Florida somewhere.

[897] A deviant felon, Otis Toole.

[898] Have you fucking read about this motherfuckerger?

[899] Tule says he drove around with Adam's head in his car for a few days before disposing of it.

[900] Tool confesses to killing Adam, but he told the police he snatched him in his car, which was an old Cadillac.

[901] Let's see here.

[902] He totally checks every box in the know -your -show serial killer study.

[903] He then recanted his confession, but in 96, while dying in prison again, admitted to killing Adam.

[904] However, there's no actual evidence to link Toll to Adam.

[905] So what about the blue van?

[906] Is this what are you going to say?

[907] Yes, go ahead.

[908] He said, so what was a blue van?

[909] In 2007, there was another investigation and witnesses linking Jeffrey Dahmer to Adam Walsh's disappearance.

[910] Is this what you're going to say?

[911] He was in Florida at the time and drove a blue van for work.

[912] Yeah.

[913] If he read that info on, he read info on Dahmer.

[914] He didn't cut off victims' heads.

[915] He did cut off victims heads.

[916] Often boys, but none as young as Adam.

[917] But Dahmer denied killing Adam.

[918] Is Dahmer still alive?

[919] No. They killed him in Joe.

[920] Good.

[921] The police and John Walsh believed that Toll was the killer of Adam.

[922] Police close.

[923] is the case.

[924] Yeah.

[925] Here's another thing.

[926] If he, is that done?

[927] Yeah.

[928] Because, wait, no, he says, Karen, you were hilarious on Twitter and I loved your Mark Mary in an interview.

[929] Oh, thanks.

[930] This was Ethan Allen.

[931] E. Allen.

[932] Yeah, E. Allen.

[933] And then he says, wait, Georgia, I don't really know your work.

[934] I thought of the podcast.

[935] I think you're cool.

[936] Thanks, E. Thanks, E. Um, so I was reading all those, like, the Jeffrey Dahmer thing came out of the blue.

[937] I was like, what?

[938] Which is kind of amazing.

[939] But it, but it didn't seem like that was his, he's not a kid.

[940] Yeah, but cutting off the head and driving a blue van are so much closer than just to some guy being like, yeah, I totally did it.

[941] Yeah, absolutely.

[942] And blonde and like young and blonde and they, they had a really clear description.

[943] But here's the thing.

[944] Adam Walsh, both of his front teeth were missing the day that he was there at the mall.

[945] He's there, his picture, I think it's his baseball picture that they used of like, have you seen this boy, had only been taken like a week or two before and he has no front teeth.

[946] And the head that they found in the canal had one front two.

[947] So there's...

[948] My whole body is shivering.

[949] A whole theory that the boy in the canal was not at a while.

[950] I'm sorry, I mean a minute.

[951] I'm like literally going to start crying right now.

[952] Oh no. That is the most...

[953] Send us to my favorite murder.

[954] send us your hometown stories.

[955] We fucking love them.

[956] Yeah.

[957] It doesn't have to be a murder even like crazy crimes.

[958] Crime something creepy, like a Cropsy story.

[959] The woods.

[960] Oh, and people who live near the woods, sort of creepy woods.

[961] Yeah.

[962] And then go to iTunes and review us and subscribe and do those things that help us.

[963] Please rate, review, subscribe.

[964] Yeah.

[965] Please do that.

[966] Because like, you know, two women hosting a podcast.

[967] Let's please.

[968] beat the men.

[969] I'm making this feminist out of nowhere.

[970] Are you going to make it like you didn't believe in us like two women hosting a podcast?

[971] This thing's bullshit.

[972] No, I mean like, don't you guys want us to do well?

[973] Because we're two women and we're like.

[974] Yeah, Hillary, do you hear us?

[975] Yeah, I'm making this feminist immediately.

[976] Don't kill women.

[977] It really is ultimately.

[978] Yeah.

[979] It's a feminist movement.

[980] It is.

[981] It's talking about murder.

[982] We're fucking, we're feminists.

[983] Is that all anything else?

[984] Yeah, no. Any final thoughts?

[985] Don't murder us.

[986] This really seems like a concern of yours.

[987] I was just saying, like, I don't want to talk about it because I'm just going to convince someone to kill me by telling them why I think it's possible like they should do it.

[988] I have to say I feel ready.

[989] I've been prepared for so long.

[990] That was Karen, by the way.

[991] I just want everyone who know that was Karen who said that.

[992] Oh my God.

[993] I'm going to prepare my speech for when it happens, like to the news like I just didn't we didn't know here's your speech she asked for it straight up intentionally recorded it set it into a marketplace all right thanks for listening guys i'm really proud that we ask people to rate review and subscribe i mean that's like we're not we're not about business in some ways because this came out two weeks after the last podcast but you know we're right there wasn't about we were not trying to get money we were trying to get on the comedy charts.

[994] Truly, that was kind of, well, I was, I kind of like, I like to chart.

[995] I got to say it.

[996] You're a charter.

[997] Yeah.

[998] But I mean, it's like the idea of actually seeing yourself on the Apple podcast website is a really big deal.

[999] It was thrilling.

[1000] It still fucking is.

[1001] Yeah.

[1002] I mean, it's so long ago that I created a Twitter account.

[1003] And that Twitter account, I actually ran for quite some time.

[1004] Yeah.

[1005] Using our, you know, company name to tell people to shut up on Twitter.

[1006] We were so bad.

[1007] It's all very unprofessional.

[1008] Oh, we were so bad.

[1009] Here's the weird thing, too, about social media I do want to say, and I think a lot of people that have listened to this podcast see this and understand it.

[1010] The lens through which things go from a podcast out into social media and then change and morph and become like this, a thing of its own is such a trippy thing to be on the original side, to be on the outgoing side of it.

[1011] Because you watch and then you learn like, oh, Yes, of course.

[1012] Yep, now that you say it like that, you're completely right.

[1013] Yeah, at first it feels a little bit like, who are these people?

[1014] Who are you?

[1015] Yeah.

[1016] Listening.

[1017] Yeah, it comes out of nowhere.

[1018] Well, and it's hard to be corrected.

[1019] It's hard to be wrong.

[1020] And most people hate it.

[1021] I do think that is a part of why people ended up liking us because we weren't like, we weren't lying or trying to say we didn't or any of that shit.

[1022] We just feel like, wow, I feel terrible.

[1023] I didn't, I didn't mean it that way.

[1024] And also just that the combination of like us being conversational about a thing that people pretend is not conversational but actually is.

[1025] Right.

[1026] Is I think we were writing that line and kind of just learning by mistake.

[1027] Yeah, as we went along.

[1028] You know, it's good for, good for personal development to be like, I'll never forget one of the, on the Twitter page, one of the early comments.

[1029] woman and she came on there a lot oh no and one of the first things she says was why these two oh that's right and i it was like one of the times where i was like oh i should not be engaging with any of this i don't need to see it why these two why these two because we did because that's it why aren't you saying that on a on a hate thread on reddit instead of to us on our yeah we're the ones reading it dumb ass fuck you lady fuck you lady it's what you wanted to say at the time but you fucking couldn't, and now you can.

[1030] Did you just splash water all over yourself?

[1031] I did.

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] I did.

[1034] Um, why these two?

[1035] It's like, instead of saying that, go start your own fucking podcast.

[1036] I bet they did.

[1037] I think that's part of it.

[1038] I think that's the, I think that's the downside of success, blah, blah, blah.

[1039] It's like you get, you get the disdain that I personally felt so free to give out when I was in the same position.

[1040] So I kind of of like, when that started happening, at first I was like, oh, I don't want to read this shit and I don't want it to sicken my head.

[1041] But then I processed it for a little while and was like, it's actually a compliment.

[1042] It's actually a sign that you're doing well.

[1043] That's true when people are pissed about it.

[1044] It's a, it's a negative version of what I have always said.

[1045] And I think what like totally brought me to this podcast, which was like, why not us?

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] You know?

[1048] Yeah.

[1049] Like, why these two chicks?

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] But why those?

[1052] So let's.

[1053] fucking do it ourselves.

[1054] And also, you know, separate from that, we do not have to talk about that person anymore, but it is that kind of thing.

[1055] That's what's beautiful about podcasting, is podcasting is the people's media where they get to say, oh, we like this, we like this conversation, we like listening to these people.

[1056] And it isn't some weird NBC presents.

[1057] Right.

[1058] Here's your, like, here's your spoon -fed entertainment.

[1059] Right.

[1060] It's really not about that.

[1061] It's about, like, It's about saying fuck in places where you normally couldn't even fit it and you're saying it.

[1062] Yeah.

[1063] Which is why it's so important to rate reviews.

[1064] So to end, we tell each other alternate title options.

[1065] If we hadn't done number puns, the actual name is go forth and murder.

[1066] That's kind of good.

[1067] Yeah.

[1068] But it could be called, my favorite title is The 80s need to go to prison, which I said about your story, that the 80s need to go to prison.

[1069] Because just everything was wrong.

[1070] It's so true.

[1071] Yeah.

[1072] I said this is the perfect podcasting couch.

[1073] It would be perfect podcasting couch would be a good title.

[1074] That's a good one.

[1075] I had just bought us a perfect podcasting couch.

[1076] I had.

[1077] I still haven't written that off in my taxes.

[1078] Call your tax guy.

[1079] Oh, my God.

[1080] You can get that back.

[1081] I wonder.

[1082] Oh, my God.

[1083] The pregnant lady I bought the couch from is like eight years old now.

[1084] Not the lady, the child.

[1085] The child of the pregnant lady.

[1086] I bought the couch from is like eight.

[1087] That's crazy.

[1088] He's like a walking, talking human.

[1089] Yeah.

[1090] Don't blame that little baby for the stupid shit that baby said when he was zero years old.

[1091] There's a baby.

[1092] He didn't know when anyone was listening to Babble.

[1093] Do what you want.

[1094] Blame who you want.

[1095] We can't.

[1096] We did it.

[1097] It's already happened.

[1098] There's nothing we can do about it.

[1099] That's the whole point of rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[1100] That's right.

[1101] It already happened.

[1102] It happened.

[1103] Look at it.

[1104] Look at it.

[1105] Look at it.

[1106] All right.

[1107] Well, I guess we'll see you next week, next Wednesday, when we do this again.

[1108] That's right.

[1109] Thanks for listening, guys.

[1110] Yeah, thanks for joining us.

[1111] Stay sexy.

[1112] And don't get murdered.

[1113] Goodbye.

[1114] Elvis, do you want a cookie?