399 - A Jack Ruby Type

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hard Star.

[3] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[4] She's sick.

[5] She's sick.

[6] She can't hide it from you anymore.

[7] She's sick.

[8] It's like your voice suddenly sounds even sexier than before.

[9] Did you think it was sexy before?

[10] I mean, yeah, you have like a voice for audio.

[11] You know what I mean?

[12] You've got that good for.

[13] For erotic audio you're saying?

[14] Thank you.

[15] Yeah, it's definitely lower.

[16] It's good.

[17] Well, I'm grateful to have gotten this illness because we went to New York.

[18] We had a fun trip.

[19] We did.

[20] We got to go to New York.

[21] In this day and age, that's what you trade, your health for traveling of any kind.

[22] Right, especially to New York, which is just always a blast.

[23] We went and took meetings, rode around on the subway of all things.

[24] Oh, my God, we were down there.

[25] We were getting on to trains.

[26] We were getting back off of trains.

[27] It was crazy.

[28] It was really.

[29] exciting.

[30] How do people do it on the day to day?

[31] Constant movement.

[32] I don't know.

[33] All those people knew exactly where they were going when we were on those trains.

[34] Yeah.

[35] Everyone had like a focus that like was scary that I don't have.

[36] No. We were like we could get off anywhere or never.

[37] We just stay on this thing forever.

[38] If no one told us to get off, we wouldn't have gotten off the train.

[39] Absolutely.

[40] We would have taken it all the way to the where does it go?

[41] I actually did that one time when I was working in New York for my brief stint in New York in the early tens.

[42] I got onto a train and just was sitting there looking at my phone and doing something.

[43] And then when I looked up, I had missed my stop by like six stops.

[44] And then I had to call my boss and was like, I'm going to make my way back up to Chelsea from what I believe might be Wall Street.

[45] I'm not sure.

[46] But I'll see you in a half an hour.

[47] It was so stupid.

[48] Well, after you and Danielle, left New York.

[49] Vincent, I stayed behind just for a couple days to, like, you know, tourist.

[50] Yes.

[51] And New York did the thing where it gives you one of those perfect nights that are unplanned, that just end up being awesome.

[52] Oh, please tell me every detail.

[53] Okay, so we're day drinking.

[54] The weather is gorgeous.

[55] Okay, tell me about that plan.

[56] It's just, you know day drinking is my favorite thing.

[57] That's my absolute favorite thing.

[58] So we go and have brunch.

[59] Did we eat lunch?

[60] Jesus, I don't remember.

[61] Go to these, like, bars in the East Village.

[62] They're all fucking lovely.

[63] It's sunny and beautiful.

[64] We go to some thrift stores.

[65] Perfect day.

[66] And then my friend Mara works on It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and said, do you want to come to the live show tonight at Radio City fucking musical?

[67] Oh, my God.

[68] I was like, absolutely.

[69] We go to that.

[70] Of course, the shows, oh, we eat a hot dog outside because we realized we hadn't eaten anything.

[71] Congratulations.

[72] It's getting hot dogs in there.

[73] Fucking New York cart hot dog, of course.

[74] Yes, of course.

[75] The best in the world.

[76] And then after that show, when it's ending, we realize who is playing down the street?

[77] Gwar.

[78] If you don't know who Gwar is, look them up.

[79] It's fucking, it's just, it's a gift.

[80] It was a gift.

[81] It was my first time seeing them.

[82] I remember my brother coming home when I was in like junior high from seeing them covered in fake blood.

[83] And so it was just epic.

[84] There's photos of me just like with the biggest fucking smile on my face.

[85] Oh.

[86] And you know that.

[87] Danielle's seen them in concert like 15 times.

[88] Really?

[89] Yes.

[90] Our COO is one of her favorite.

[91] Well, I don't know if she would qualify as that her favorite band, but it's definitely her favorite concert to go to.

[92] It obviously was epic and amazing.

[93] Yeah.

[94] That's great.

[95] How fun.

[96] It was perfect.

[97] And then we ate room service and fucking went to bed.

[98] Yeah.

[99] we also got to meet a bunch of listeners on the street and do you think that was because you posted something on Instagram like oh we're here we are in front of the Chelsea Hotel and so people knew to look for us yeah but it happened before that too so yeah that's true maybe it was very cool Diane who worked at our hotel was like you're the first podcast I've ever listened to and I was awesome and she's like it's nice to meet you and then I'm like Georgia was here but she like she's she left gabby who worked at a boxing place a boxing gym yep we ran into gabby on her way to work she was lovely yeah she was great there was so many i know i met anna at the airport a lot of people it's fun to go out into the world it is but then you pay with your health then karen gets deathly ill and we have to record on a random morning where i'm caffeined up now so is it going to change your performance hopefully it was so hard for me not to ask you this question when we were in new york to save it for the podcast because it's a really important question okay are you watching golden bachelor no but i've seen clips of it i saw the clips of like the woman who walked out and goes i'm not supposed to be here and she was like this genius new york lady yeah but just a recap for me in reality shows, I get too embarrassed on their behalf, especially if they're not embarrassed at all.

[100] Like, it is debilitating to me the level of shame, I feel, for most of the people that are on those shows.

[101] So I don't really enjoy them the way other people do.

[102] This one's got heart to it, though, I will say.

[103] Really?

[104] Like, he is this, like, sweet, dopey grandpa who, like, lost the love of his life.

[105] And so he's looking for love again six years later.

[106] Every time he talks about it, he starts tearing up.

[107] He is like the sweetest zaddy, you know.

[108] And then all the ladies too are like rooting for each other or at least pretending they are.

[109] And like some of them had lost their husbands and just are trying for another chance at love.

[110] It's got heart in a way that like the other ones don't.

[111] Oh, that's nice.

[112] Yeah, a lot of crying.

[113] Okay.

[114] Yeah.

[115] I love a good crying show.

[116] Yeah.

[117] What's up with you?

[118] So I talk about the opportunist a lot.

[119] I love that podcast.

[120] Hannah Smith was actually on our show.

[121] She's the host and she's one of the producers as well.

[122] It's season seven that I started listening to while we were on our trip and while we were on the plane.

[123] And it is about, do you remember the outward bound style?

[124] They were basically reformed schools for kids in the 70s and 80s and they would send you like out into the desert.

[125] So this is definitely a parallel to like all of those reform schools that like Paris Hilton did her story on.

[126] And we covered a bunch of those ones that were all like they're not run by licensed people.

[127] Right.

[128] It's very problematic.

[129] But basically, these were summer programs or they would send kids into the desert if you were some sort of rebel.

[130] Delinquent.

[131] Yes.

[132] So your parents would have you kidnapped out of your house similar to those reform schools.

[133] And which even that, I don't think I ever really processed how horrifying that would be.

[134] It's terrifying.

[135] It's so terrifying.

[136] It doesn't need to be that way.

[137] Like, it's such an indication of the wrongheadedness of the people that ran those places.

[138] But then in this one, you would just go get dumped literally into the desert in Utah.

[139] And they would hike you around the desert.

[140] They would take away everything that you brought with you.

[141] So your parents might send you there with a bunch of camping equipment and a bunch of different stuff.

[142] So you would like, it's your camping tough.

[143] Right.

[144] Right.

[145] You'll learn some grit or whatever the fuck.

[146] Right.

[147] there's people there that went through it that tell their own story talking about how they got there all of that stuff was taken away from them many of them were like stripped down and given like other clothes like it's like they were being sent to prison yeah but these are teenagers yeah and very vulnerable and like difficult part of their lives and none of these people were qualified in any way shape or form to be helping them the only way it started to get looked into was when kids started dying in the desert.

[148] And there's people telling firsthand stories of these deaths that are just like, you just can't believe it's real.

[149] And I remember seeing these ads in the back of Sunset magazine.

[150] Oh my God.

[151] Of course.

[152] Yeah.

[153] I named Outward Bound.

[154] That's not the one that they're talking about.

[155] So sorry for that, because that could be a legit one.

[156] Summit Quest is the one that this is about.

[157] And they advertised in Sunset.

[158] So like you have your bougie mom that's looking through.

[159] a bougie magazine then going, oh, if your kid is difficult, send them away to this camp.

[160] It's horrifying.

[161] Literally the only reason that my brother and I didn't get sent to one of those is because we couldn't afford it.

[162] There's no reason why we weren't put in there.

[163] Yeah.

[164] We were just such bad kids.

[165] And so thank God, I didn't have to go do that.

[166] Were you bad kids or were you good kids in a bad situation?

[167] Aw.

[168] For real.

[169] As my therapist would say, you don't start doing meth at 13 because everything's fine.

[170] Yes.

[171] You know.

[172] So that's a good point and we both turned out fine.

[173] So yes, look at you now.

[174] Look at us now.

[175] Yeah.

[176] So listen to the opportunist.

[177] Season seven, there's a, she already has a new season out, season eight, but this was one season ago.

[178] And I just, it got me through both plane rides so easily.

[179] That's my favorite part about podcast.

[180] They make travel feel like a time machine.

[181] Totally.

[182] All right.

[183] Should we get into the exactly right of it all?

[184] Let's do it.

[185] Okay.

[186] Hey, we have a podcast network.

[187] It's called Exactly Right.

[188] Here are some updates.

[189] So this week on our brand new limited series, infamous international, the Pink Panther story, Milan Lepoya, who's one of the thieves from the heist at the Wafi Mall, quietly spends nine years in prison before returning home to Serbia.

[190] And he's determined to go straight, but will it be possible for this Pink Panther?

[191] You have to tune in to find out.

[192] And then comedian Jimmy Pardo, legend, is Bridger's guest on I Said No. gifts.

[193] And then also comedian Tone Bell.

[194] Oh, what a gem.

[195] He joins Michelle Boutot and Jordan Carlos on Adelting.

[196] Tone Bell used to come to parties that like you would throw or Joe DeRose would throw and I would just be like, hey.

[197] He's perfect.

[198] He's like the sweetest, loveliest.

[199] Truly beautiful.

[200] Yeah.

[201] And so funny, such a good stand -up comic.

[202] Anyway, the annual I saw what you did, Halloween episode is here and Millie and Danielle covered a double feature of Candyman from 1982 and Da -da -da -da -da, Silence of the Lambs from 1991.

[203] Epic.

[204] And then as we officially enter our indoor era, our indoor season, this is your chance to grab a mystery cinema puzzle from the MFM store.

[205] It's a challenging puzzle.

[206] I wouldn't know because I don't do puzzles.

[207] Should I say that?

[208] Is that a good promo?

[209] But it's fun.

[210] I don't believe in this product, but we sell it.

[211] But according to people who do like puzzles, it's fun.

[212] And it also features gorgeous artwork by Alex Ray, who's a murderino.

[213] So please check that out at my favorite murder .com.

[214] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[215] Absolutely.

[216] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[217] Exactly.

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[231] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

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[233] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[234] Goodbye.

[235] Are you ready to tell me a story while I cough quietly into my hand?

[236] Yes.

[237] So because of Karen's ill. illness this week.

[238] I'm going to go solo, but I have an really excellent, fun, interesting story to tell you.

[239] Great.

[240] So put your listening ears on, put strap on your boots.

[241] I don't know why.

[242] Because today I'm going to tell you about an extraordinary woman, Karen.

[243] And this woman would not settle for a boring life, the basics, the things that trap and bore people.

[244] This is, she couldn't do it.

[245] This is the story about a globe -trotting notorious jewel thief who started her life of crime in the 1960s.

[246] Oh.

[247] And her most recent arrest was in 2017 at 87 years old.

[248] Oh, shit.

[249] Yes.

[250] This is the story of Doris Payne.

[251] Oh, damn.

[252] Uh -huh.

[253] My main sources for this story are Doris's own autobiography called Diamond Doris, written by Doris Payne with Zelda Lockhart and a document.

[254] men I recalled the life and crimes of Doris Payne, and the rest of the sources can be found on our show notes.

[255] So Doris Payne is born in October of 1930 in Slab Fork, West Virginia.

[256] Oh, yeah, Slab Fork.

[257] It's great.

[258] You know a good Slab Fork.

[259] I love it there.

[260] Which is like a crazy mining town.

[261] It's, you know, it's the 1930s.

[262] Times are fucking tough for everyone.

[263] And Doris' father is black, and her mother is a member of the Cherokee Nation.

[264] So it's, you know, you've got the racist aspect going on that definitely affects Doris's life.

[265] Right.

[266] Doris is the second youngest of six in a family of what she describes as, quote, stair step children, which just means that they're born with just enough time in between for their mother to recover from childbirth.

[267] So like each step is a fucking another kid.

[268] Right.

[269] Doris's father is a coal miner and he is abusive towards Doris's mother, sometimes violently beating her.

[270] Doris describes this saying quote It wasn't an everyday thing that my father beat my mother But she was a prisoner He didn't want her talking to any men And he didn't even want her talking Or gossiping with other women This taught me early in life That abusers try to isolate you End quote And in her mind she was like I refuse to let that be my life I will not be isolated by a man One day when Doris is about 13 Her mom tells her that as a reward For getting straight A's she's going to buy Doris a watch.

[271] Doris goes to her town's general store, and the owner, who she knows, shows her the watches he has.

[272] And then he's being lovely to her.

[273] They've known each other for a long time, you know, because of the town.

[274] And so when another customer comes in and the owner's demeanor completely changes, it's like a white person who comes in and starts treating Doris poorly and just ignores her.

[275] She gets really upset about this.

[276] All the warmth leaps his face, and he tries to hustle Doris out of the shop, and he, in the process, forgets that Doris still had the watch on.

[277] So she doesn't take the watch, but she walks to the front door of the jewelry store and almost like a show of like, how dare you, says, hey, by the way, you forgot your watch.

[278] Like, I could have just walked out of the store with this because of the way you're treating me, but I didn't.

[279] And so she keeps it back.

[280] But this incident really stung her because of this close relationship she had the shop owner who's Jewish.

[281] So she had previously seen him as an ally in her mostly white mining town.

[282] Yeah.

[283] And so this happened and it really affected her.

[284] She feels betrayed.

[285] Doris describes the incident as formative in her decision to, quote, go to war with jewelry salesman.

[286] This is when it kind of changes first.

[287] First, she makes sure she can replicate the success.

[288] She and a friend take a bus to Cleveland.

[289] They walk into a Woolworths and Doris tries on watches, makes friendly conversation with the salesman until he forgets how many watches.

[290] she's tried on.

[291] And when she gets to the entrance of the store with a watch hidden in her glove, she then goes back to the counter to return it.

[292] She's just kind of testing this out.

[293] Like, can I get away with it?

[294] So she almost took that moment with the original shop owner.

[295] It was almost like this traumatizing moment that then she's kind of like, wait a second.

[296] I think I found a weakness in the way this whole thing runs.

[297] And I'm going to exploit it.

[298] Exactly.

[299] Sticking a watch in your glove is a really good idea.

[300] I mean, right?

[301] Yeah.

[302] She goes back to the counter to return it, and the man behind the counter thanks her.

[303] And Doris writes in her autobiography, quote, when we got to the street, we ran and cackled like two witches who had stolen the heart out of the chest of the king's firstborn son.

[304] She wrote that?

[305] That's fucking floral writing.

[306] Yeah.

[307] We were as high as we could be.

[308] We were secretly in control of white men, end quote.

[309] You know what I mean?

[310] Power.

[311] This is where she's going to get her power.

[312] That's right.

[313] When Doris is in her teens, her father's abuse of her.

[314] her mother becomes even more violent.

[315] And knowing that her mom can't escape her father without money, Doris finally leans into her success as a jewel thief and steals a diamond, pawns it, and gives the money to her mother.

[316] Together they move to Cleveland while her father stays behind in slab pork.

[317] Doris has two children when she's 18 and 22, and it seems like the father of the kids take custody, and she kind of isn't in their lives until they're older.

[318] Doris's mother is a talented steamstress and gets sewing work while Doris starts working in a nursing home.

[319] So they reinvent themselves and start their lives in Cleveland.

[320] After a few years of this in the late 1950s, so she's not really stealing stuff.

[321] It's like out of necessity she did it.

[322] But when Doris is about 26, one of her coworkers confines in her that her mother needs medication that she can't afford.

[323] So Doris comes up with a plan.

[324] One day on their lunch break, Doris and the friend go to a department store.

[325] Doris dresses her friend who's white in a beautiful dress that her mother has made while Doris stays in her nursing home uniform.

[326] She tells the friend to, quote, slump over a bit like one of those wafy Victorian heiresses, end quote.

[327] So they tell the clerk that the friend will soon be engaged and they are ring shopping.

[328] So she's acting like her nurse.

[329] Okay.

[330] Doris has a whole backstory worked out.

[331] The point is for the clerk to assume that this friend is some sort of, tragically ill heiress who's marrying a man who is undoubtedly after her family fortune like this whole story and it works while the salesman is distracted doris slips a wedding ban and engagement ring into her dress pocket the friend swoons a bit more and doris is like oh she's not feeling well i got to get her out of here we'll come back another day and they walk out of the store it's kind of a brilliant plan i mean right it's really good because then their eyes are on the quote unquote the woman with the money Right.

[332] And the nurse's outfit, keeping that on.

[333] So Doris pawns the wedding set for $1 ,500, which in today's money is $17 ,000.

[334] Oh, wow.

[335] That's a lot of money.

[336] Yeah, it is.

[337] She gives her friend the money.

[338] She needs for the medication and uses some of the profits to buy an expensive handbag and a different diamond ring.

[339] Now she looks for all the world like a wealthy married woman with all the time and money in the world to shop for jewelry.

[340] jewelry so they don't question why she's coming into these expensive jewelry shops.

[341] So she basically used some of the money from the last thing she stole to buy her new costume.

[342] So she doesn't have to depend on that friend anymore.

[343] She can just do it for herself.

[344] That's genius.

[345] Yeah.

[346] And then she quits her job at the nursing home and like it's fucking on.

[347] Bye.

[348] Bye.

[349] So Doris quickly hones her technique.

[350] She calls her operations, quote, her campaigns.

[351] Mm -hmm.

[352] So her method is this.

[353] She first researches the pieces she wants by looking at ads in town and country magazine.

[354] Harper's Bazaar and Vogue.

[355] So, like, she wants to know what pieces she wants.

[356] Yeah.

[357] She also gets ideas for how she should dress and act by looking at those magazines and by staking out department stores and watching the way wealthy women dress and act.

[358] Dora says, quote, when I'm preparing to go on a campaign, I'm preparing to play the part of someone else.

[359] I'm camouflaging myself.

[360] You have to look your part.

[361] You have to look like you belong.

[362] I have to behave so well -bred that they would have no idea who I am.

[363] I'm sure that they don't see me as a black American woman who just walked in.

[364] I'm sure of that.

[365] So once she's ready, she goes to the store.

[366] She sits down with the sales clerk and asks to see multiple pieces of jewelry.

[367] She moves them around.

[368] She tries them on.

[369] She talks about each peach.

[370] She kind of like does like a sleight of hand where everything's moving around.

[371] Like the point is for them to forget how many pieces they have out.

[372] Right.

[373] Then she'll distract the sales.

[374] clerk with a question take a piece of jewelry and then the sales clerk refocuses on her and she'll say well where did that one diamond go and then the clerk will start looking for it and doris will go oh here it is and then the sales clerk is so grateful and thinks she's trustworthy so then he relaxes a little bit okay yeah so then after he relaxes doris takes the piece of jewelry she actually wants sleight of hand right yes and also the psychology of that which is When it happens the second time, I'm sure that store clerk is like, if that is the case, it's like, well, it wouldn't happen two times.

[375] Right.

[376] She just gave it back.

[377] Right.

[378] So Doris knows that she's not going to get top dollar for her high quality jewels by continuing to sell them to pawn shops.

[379] You can only get so much.

[380] By word of mouth, she finds a broker named Harold Braunfield.

[381] He's a Jewish nightclub owner who everyone calls Babe.

[382] Babe has connections in the jewelry industry.

[383] And throughout the 1960s, he and Doris work as a team to sell the pieces that she takes.

[384] I think they have like a fondness and an admiration for each other.

[385] I would love to work with someone named Babe Braunfield.

[386] Oh, absolutely.

[387] Who owns a nightclub?

[388] It sounds like he has like a little stub of a cigar in the corner of his mouth all the time.

[389] And he's just like doing business.

[390] Just doing business.

[391] I'm thinking of like a Jack Ruby type, probably, right?

[392] You mean the guy that killed Lee Harvey also?

[393] Yeah.

[394] But not so unscrupulous.

[395] A little less?

[396] he was a Nyklob owner I know like you don't think of an actor or something you're like you know like you know I've started dating again I'm really looking for a Jack Ruby type out there he now he was a zaddy he was a golden bachelor if I've ever seen one and the other thing too is that their relationship remains unclear but they had like a connection with each other yeah absolutely so by using Babe and selling to actual jewelry buyers, although not particularly scrupulous ones, Doris can get more money for her jewels than by pawning them, and Babe counsels Doris not to take anything too valuable or else it would be too hot to sell.

[397] So he kind of helps her out.

[398] Yeah.

[399] Doris's years working with Babe are very profitable.

[400] She does a stint in L .A. with Babe flying back and forth to collect her stolen bounty and bring it back to Cleveland to sell.

[401] While in L .A., she steals two diamond rings from a Rodeo Drive boutique, which are worth about $20 ,000 then, or almost how much in today's money?

[402] 20 ,000 in the 60s.

[403] In the 60s, 300 ,000?

[404] Close though.

[405] That's closer than not close.

[406] Thank you.

[407] Can you imagine getting $200 ,000?

[408] That's fucking wild.

[409] And also, because they're not stealing the most expensive thing.

[410] Exactly.

[411] Those are the pieces that the jewelers, eyes aren't always on.

[412] Right.

[413] Right.

[414] Smart.

[415] And then it's like it's obvious if those are missing rather than the like smaller pieces that yeah kind of can go into the radar.

[416] Right.

[417] When Doris returns to Cleveland, she's done so well that she can afford to buy a house in the ritzie suburb of Shaker Heights.

[418] The house actually costs $20 ,000.

[419] So she bought a house with her Rodeo drive trip essentially.

[420] Hell yes.

[421] Doris has half of that in the bank but she doesn't want to advertise that so she gets a traditional mortgage.

[422] But this.

[423] This isn't a problem.

[424] She's a black woman.

[425] It was hard to do back then, but Babe has sold several of Doris's pieces to her bank manager.

[426] So he's like, sure, you can have a mortgage.

[427] Yes.

[428] Right?

[429] Got to make friends at the top, I guess.

[430] That's right.

[431] She's got like a mentor and, yeah, that's good.

[432] So Doris is arrested a couple times.

[433] It's just going to happen throughout the story, but is either not charged or given very short sentences because authorities never ever, ever, throughout this entire story, ever find the diamonds she's been accused.

[434] of stealing.

[435] Oh.

[436] There's never proof of the piece.

[437] Yep.

[438] So Babe and Doris' relationship, as I said, is a little ambiguous, but it sours when Doris meets another man named Kenneth.

[439] Kenneth and Doris want to have a serious relationship.

[440] It seems like Babe is jealous, even though he's actually married to another woman himself.

[441] Doris winds up severing ties with him, and he dies not long after.

[442] Oh, not sure what that story is.

[443] Doris winds up having a long -term romantic relationship.

[444] relationship with Kenneth.

[445] And while he knows about her business, he's not involved.

[446] He just kind of waits for her in Cleveland while she goes around the country and then eventually the world for her campaigns.

[447] So he's like her heckin husband at home.

[448] I love it.

[449] Love it.

[450] Also, I really love that she calls them campaigns.

[451] I know.

[452] That's hilarious.

[453] By the early 1970s, when Doris is about 40, a trade group called the Jewelers Security Alliance is on to Doris and sends out a bulletin to jewelers giving a description of her and her techniques and telling them to be on the lookout.

[454] So the jig is up.

[455] So Doris decides to take her show on the road to Europe.

[456] Yeah.

[457] A girl from fucking slab fork West Virginia in the 30s.

[458] And like this becomes her jet setting life.

[459] Yeah.

[460] A jewel thief.

[461] And also like a master mimic where all she has to do is look through magazines and like be around rich people for a while and then she blends right in.

[462] Like all those different things that she was doing to kind of make her campaigns effective.

[463] Like, clearly she's a brilliant person.

[464] Yeah.

[465] Okay.

[466] So Europe.

[467] On one occasion, Doris has, quote, a field day in a jewelry store in Zurich.

[468] And then goes back to her hotel and lays low until nightfall.

[469] She's getting ready to cross the Swiss border into France, but decides to go out dancing first.

[470] Girl, no. Priorities.

[471] Don't do it.

[472] I know, right?

[473] she goes to a nightclub has a great time dancing but she doesn't realize that the footage of this particular nightclub is actually broadcast on swith's television no it's like a webcam of like the nightclub that's genius right i want to hear the story of that nightclub i know it was the 60s right 70s which is like there's so much cocaine happening i want to see those videos do they exist yes please Yeah.

[474] Where are those videos?

[475] So at last call, the lights come on and the police are there ready to arrest her, like someone identified her.

[476] The policeman is sitting home with his wife watching the club on TV.

[477] That's how they hang out on Wednesday nights.

[478] And he's like, there she is.

[479] There's that woman from the jewelry store.

[480] Wait a second.

[481] According to Doris, the police then put her on a train to Geneva where other officers are waiting for her.

[482] They don't send anyone with her because the train isn't supposed to make any stop.

[483] You know, they were like, I'm going back home to my Swiss nightclub show.

[484] And let's just put her on the train and send her off.

[485] You get on this train and you behave yourself and don't do any more criminal stuff.

[486] That's right.

[487] Well, the train does stop briefly to load some water.

[488] And Doris is like, later days.

[489] Bye.

[490] Jumps off.

[491] Goodbye.

[492] She runs through some farmland and woods, flags down a car and gets her right out of Switzerland.

[493] Hell yeah.

[494] This is a true adventure.

[495] what you're telling me right now.

[496] This is some infamous international The Pink Panther story, guys.

[497] It's like the prequel, basically.

[498] Yeah, if you like this.

[499] Okay, so the biggest ties of Doris' career is in Monte Carlo in 1974.

[500] Oh, can you imagine?

[501] Come on.

[502] She's about 44 years old, prime of her life.

[503] Doris, I'm saying that because I'm 43 and I really want that to be true.

[504] And it is true because you just said it on a podcast.

[505] That's right.

[506] Doris arrives in Monte Carlo and checks into the Hotel de Paris.

[507] She tells people that she's the wife of the famous director, Otto Preminger.

[508] Do you know him?

[509] I mean, I've heard of him.

[510] Okay.

[511] I've never parted with him.

[512] So stupid.

[513] Otto at this time was married to someone else, but not someone famous.

[514] And so Doris, dressed to the nines, looks like she could be a famous director's person.

[515] Doris sits down with a salesman in the Cartier store.

[516] He brings out a large selection of rings on a velvet tray.

[517] the salesman leaves her briefly to greet another customer and then Doris walks out of the store with a 10 .5 -carat diamond ring with a $550 ,000 price tag on it.

[518] Whoa.

[519] Like back then, which in today's money, do you want to know how much or do you want?

[520] $2 .5 million.

[521] $3 .4 million.

[522] Oh, wow.

[523] Which is like, oh, no, that was too big of a heist.

[524] It's gigantic.

[525] But also, I wonder after a while.

[526] how much or little she was getting nervous when she knew because it's one thing to take a lower price wedding band or whatever these things are and how she's making those decisions but now she's in big heist business yeah like that's huge i wonder if being in another country helped too because like it's not like she was in cleveland or you know could quickly easily go somewhere else it's like this is a one -time thing i have to get the biggest thing i can and get the fuck out of here yeah so when she realizes how valuable the diamond is, she says to herself, quote, oh, you shouldn't have done this.

[527] She fucking knows what time it is.

[528] In addition to taking something so conspicuous and valuable, Doris says she made three other mistakes that day.

[529] One, she took the diamond when there was only one other patron in the store, which is like, so it's obvious that it was her.

[530] Yeah.

[531] Two, she didn't change her clothes before going from her hotel to the airport, making a little harder to be found.

[532] Right.

[533] And three, she waited for a, flight to New York instead of just getting on the first flight out of the country.

[534] All great tips.

[535] I feel like we are literally advocating for people to steal jewelry.

[536] That's right.

[537] We're writing the playbook right now.

[538] So while she's waiting at the airport, Doris is approached by customs agents who want to search her for the missing diamond.

[539] It starts out in Doris's coat pocket.

[540] Then she wraps it in a tissue, then holds the tissue up to her face and blows her nose.

[541] So making it able for her to put the ring in her mouth.

[542] oh because she knows if she's found with it she's fucked you know yes yes so the police frisk her they can't find the ring she coughs into the tissue one more time to get the ring out of her mouth and then somehow drops it into her boot once she's already been searched wow i will say i've seen bens go into like a concert before being frisked and he has a joint on him because that's what he does and he will put his hands up to be frisked and the joint is in his fist yes I mean, they're not going to be like, open your hands.

[543] They're just looking at your pocket, right?

[544] Right.

[545] They just want to see what's in your, like, what you've hidden in your clothes.

[546] It's like, no, I've hidden it in a way more obvious place.

[547] It's like, I'm holding it.

[548] That makes me think of the time I went to see Everclear.

[549] You know my favorite band, Ever Clear, in 1996.

[550] They're kind of bops.

[551] Their songs.

[552] Yeah, oh my God.

[553] You can't, in that era, and especially considering the speed I was on, driving around to ever clear in Los Angeles was like it's it healed your soul it's kind of beautiful songwriting it is surprisingly yeah okay authentic anyway we were walking in and I for some reason maybe I've told you the story ready I had a whole little container of weed in my purse and it was just in my bag and I just didn't think about it where it's like oh yeah for like security but they're going to check for weapons or something like that and this woman that worked at the security gate she comes and she opens my purse and she moves all the stuff around to like look in it and she sees the little plastic you know thing container and she picks up she goes open that up and then I open it up and it just filled the lead and she looks me and she goes girl put that in your car I could have been in so much fucking I was scared to death this was pre legalization pre everything it was like she was my friend going you're a fucking idiot yeah Don't make me fucking tell you how stupid.

[554] Why do I have to tell you to put this in your car?

[555] It was the funniest, funniest and nicest thing that anyone could do.

[556] She's not trying to get anyone in trouble.

[557] She just doesn't want anyone to bring any fucking stupid shit in the venue.

[558] She just doesn't want people to be stupid.

[559] Right.

[560] And it's like, you know what?

[561] I hear you and I will be doing that from now on.

[562] 100%.

[563] Okay.

[564] So because Moni Carlo has no jail facility for women, Doris is brought to a hotel.

[565] overlooking the Mediterranean Sea to await her legal proceedings which is like sign me the fuck up for real I mean she's been very lucky in those yes European situations yeah she asked one of the guards for a set of nail clippers and a sewing kit normal things to ask for which they bring her Doris uses the clippers to pry the diamond out of the ring setting she throws the setting into the Mediterranean which sounds beautiful and sows the diamond into her girdle girl yes then she wears that girdle every day for months even when it's wet from being washed she's like keeping this fucking thing on mm -hmm authorities never find the diamond but doris is still convicted and sentenced to three years she's held in a low security facility that she says is more like a bed and breakfast it's in the hills of monaco wow sounds kind of yeah you're like can I go get arrested and have a fucking vacation in prison please Still, Doris takes the first opportunity she can to escape.

[566] After about nine months, Doris fakes a stomach virus and is brought to a nearby hospital.

[567] At the hospital, she fakes more stomach cramps and a kindly nun sends her to the bathroom.

[568] She fucking escapes out the window, gets into a cab, goes to France, gets a fake passport, and flies to New York.

[569] Wow.

[570] Goodbye.

[571] I wish I knew how she was doing any and all of this.

[572] She must have had contacts over there, right?

[573] Yeah, you'd think, right?

[574] To get a fake passport over there?

[575] Yeah, or just like knew where to go because she's selling these diamonds too.

[576] It's like, you know, you find the right people who like know people on the low, on the down low, and you can find whatever the fuck you want, I think.

[577] Yeah, I guess that's true.

[578] A buyer on 47th Street pays her about $150 ,000 for the diamond that she had kept that whole time.

[579] And that is about $850 ,000 today.

[580] So it works.

[581] All kind of worth it, maybe, in the end.

[582] Yeah.

[583] Over the next couple of decades, Doris will be arrested many, many times, both in the U .S. and abroad.

[584] But at the same time, she's not arrested that much relative to how often she steals pieces of jewelry.

[585] So it's almost like it comes with the territory, but like it's worth the tradeoff.

[586] She pretty much takes a ring or a watch about once a month, but no one will ever find what she's accused of stealing.

[587] in her possession.

[588] She says, quote, I really don't know how many times I've been to jail.

[589] I've never tried to keep up with that.

[590] I never gave it a thought.

[591] I know I never went to jail and stayed.

[592] Doris travels to different American cities and repeatedly travels the world.

[593] It's just like, God, that's the goal in life, you know?

[594] Yeah.

[595] She's living dream life while she's doing this stuff and then she's kind of bankrolling her dream life.

[596] Totally.

[597] So sometimes she travels under aliases with fake passports.

[598] She steals from a Cartier store in Tokyo.

[599] For a while in her 50s, she sets up shop in Athens, stealing from smaller shops in the tourist shopping district, and selling what she steals in Amsterdam.

[600] She's arrested around 20 more times in other countries.

[601] She uses fake names and fake passports to continue to get around, even after so many run -ins with the law, she's able to get away with it.

[602] When she's 52 years old, Doris is arrested.

[603] in San Francisco and it turns out she's wanted on multiple state and federal charges.

[604] So she's ultimately brought to Fort Worth, Texas.

[605] And there, she escapes from U .S. Marshals in the similar way she did in Monte Carlo, first by being admitted to a hospital and then walking out.

[606] She's also very beautiful.

[607] I should have said, like, I think people are thrown off by a beautiful woman, of course, right?

[608] And like taken aback.

[609] Absolutely.

[610] And it kind of like maybe more prone to believe them or to all that pretty privileged stuff where it's like she would never.

[611] Right.

[612] And then the older she gets, she's like a beautiful dignified woman, older woman, you know.

[613] At the time that she walks out of the Fort Worth, Texas thing, she's also wanted for questioning in Geneva in connection with the disappearance of an emerald, which in 1982 was worth 90 ,000 Swiss francs, which is about 167 ,000 U .S. dollars today.

[614] Doris has always returned to Cleveland, though, as a home base to her mother and to her boyfriend Kenneth, but in her early 60s, she quickly loses both of them and her best friend to cancer.

[615] And this sets off an even more intense 13 -year spree of thefts.

[616] I'm sure she was devastated, mostly based within the United States.

[617] Though there's always been a compulsive aspect to Doris' crimes, it does seem like.

[618] almost an addiction if you were to look at it through that lens this is when it kind of starts to become clear that she can't stop there's more arrests more short stints in jail and more parole and probation violations in 1998 77 year old 77 year old Doris so picture my fucking mom yeah is flipping through an issue of Harper's Bazaar and she sees an ad for a large square cut diamond at a Neiman Marcus mall in Denver and she says quote, I was on a plane before you could say boo.

[619] I'm sure that was like an illustration or something, but I bet they don't advertise diamonds like that anymore.

[620] Right.

[621] Where they're like, here's where to come get it.

[622] We've got this one big gigantic square cut diamond here at this one store and this one town, just in case anyone's interested.

[623] That's very silly.

[624] Doris walks out of the store with that very diamond worth $55 ,000 in 1998 or $100 ,000.

[625] $104 ,000 today.

[626] She hops on a plane to Philadelphia where she's recognized and arrested.

[627] Of this, Doris writes in her autobiography, quote, fucking Interpol, fucking Internet.

[628] Because now it's the late 90s and she's getting fucking recognized.

[629] Doris, I couldn't agree with you more.

[630] So Doris is brought back to Denver and is charged and convicted.

[631] She serves five years in prison, which is the longest stretch of time behind bars ever.

[632] and at her oldest age.

[633] So by now, Doris is actually quite famous, both among jewelers and us regular folks.

[634] The media has caught on, and there's a lot to write about her.

[635] It's kind of, it's a fascinating story of an old lady jewel thief.

[636] Hell yeah.

[637] She's got her cute white hair now, and she's like a darling old lady.

[638] So like, you can't imagine that she had this life and she's still this person.

[639] Right.

[640] In the documentary, they're with her as an old lady.

[641] the whole time.

[642] Yeah.

[643] And just the years, she's put in the time.

[644] Like she's mastered the idea of being a jewel thief.

[645] Yeah.

[646] Where it's like, yeah, it's me. I'm the real one.

[647] I'm the one with the guts to go into a store, look people in the eye, move their stuff around, try on a bunch of stuff, and leave with.

[648] So much money.

[649] With a big old diamond.

[650] It's crazy.

[651] What people make it in a couple years, you know?

[652] Yeah.

[653] There is one scene in the documentary where like a guy, who like owns or works at a really nice jewelry store, like has her come in to show him how she does it.

[654] So she can help him like catch people who are trying to steal shit, you know, like she's the expert.

[655] That makes me think of there was a time when I worked at the gap, San Francisco Gap, 91, 92.

[656] There was a person that came in and tried to do that thing.

[657] They never used to let us make change.

[658] It's like you can only have an interaction if somebody's buying something.

[659] Right, right, right, right.

[660] You can only open the cash register.

[661] So you can't just like hit a button and open it up and help.

[662] And we watched this guy do a thing where he was completely trying to like, two fives for a 10, two, you know, that kind of thing.

[663] And it was wild.

[664] It went so fast.

[665] And then our manager came right over and was like, no, no, no, we're not doing any of this and, like, kick the guy out.

[666] But they're such fast talkers.

[667] They're very magnetic.

[668] I was just witnessing it.

[669] I wasn't even the one talking to him.

[670] And everyone knew that was happening.

[671] Well, we didn't really know what was going on at first.

[672] It was just this very kind of charming, compelling man who just needed to.

[673] change and was explaining the change he needed as he was holding up bills.

[674] And so he's essentially tricking you into believing he's going to give you this 20 and you're going to give him two tens, but he actually ends up giving you 10.

[675] Right.

[676] He says, you know, give me back that 20.

[677] He keeps making you hand stuff back to him over and over.

[678] Right.

[679] And then you get totally confused.

[680] Yeah.

[681] It's crazy.

[682] It's crazy.

[683] That's in one of my favorite movies, Paper Moon.

[684] Oh, yeah.

[685] They do that grift.

[686] And it's just, it's the exact thing.

[687] If you want to see it done really well, watch Paper Moon.

[688] I love that movie.

[689] Okay.

[690] In 2011, at 81 years old and looking to all the world, like a sweet little lady with white hair, Doris is found guilty of yet another department store theft and sentenced to five more years in prison in California.

[691] I think this is where she goes to my childhood mall, which is a South Coast Plaza and Costa Mesa, which is like the high end mall.

[692] But they have an amazing.

[693] marrying around.

[694] By that time, over the course of her career, she had made an estimated $2 million from stealing jewelry.

[695] Wow.

[696] Doris says she spent most of that and has depleted most of her savings.

[697] The Shaker Heights House was foreclosed on a long time ago.

[698] She's had 32 aliases, 11 social security numbers, and nine passports.

[699] Wow.

[700] I can't even get my fucking driver's license renewed on time.

[701] I know.

[702] Right?

[703] You know we have to get that real ID thing.

[704] done by like I think it's next year and I'm just like how how am I going to do that why does one do that I don't understand after her release doris is arrested in 2016 at 86 years old for stealing a two thousand dollar bracelet she's given three years probation and she's had one or two minor brushes with the law since then but that is the story of the jet setting woman who wouldn't settle for a normal life the notorious jewel thief doris pain Doris Payne, I respect you.

[705] It's weird, right?

[706] It is.

[707] Like you want to condemn crime and stuff and stealing, but it's also like, wow, what a life.

[708] But also, and we've said this before, it's like everybody has their reasons.

[709] And that's why it isn't so black and white and so easy to say, like, you know, lock her up and throw away the key.

[710] Yeah.

[711] Especially when you know that background of like when women are doing stuff like that, it's usually escaping that kind of oppression of like abuse of households or whatever.

[712] Doris and her mother trying in the 40s or, you know, 30s, whenever you were saying, to break away from an abusive husband.

[713] Yeah.

[714] And it's also like kind of a fuck you to capitalism, right?

[715] Those diamonds are only worth what we say they're worth.

[716] Whether or not it was compulsive later on.

[717] It's not like it started out with her loving diamonds so much.

[718] It was like, oh, this is my way of getting out of here.

[719] Totally.

[720] Like that feeling of like the disrespect and the betrayal of that first shop owner.

[721] We're just like, oh yeah, that's kind of everywhere around me and I can take that and use it again and basically get myself out of a bad situation.

[722] It's very compelling.

[723] Yeah, it is.

[724] It is.

[725] Yeah.

[726] Well, great job.

[727] Thank you.

[728] Thanks for taking all the work this week.

[729] I really appreciate it.

[730] No problem.

[731] Now, you try to talk for 45 minutes straight.

[732] See how that goes with your throat.

[733] When Hannah texted and was like, so are you good with if Georgia just does a solo?

[734] I'm like, oh, my.

[735] Oh, my God, that really is the solution.

[736] Because I thought we were still doing a regular one, and I was like, ugh.

[737] Maybe we should both go next week, and I can save my solo for a time when I need it, when I want to fuck off.

[738] Yeah.

[739] We just start banking these away.

[740] Ooh.

[741] God.

[742] I just missed the time before we had, like, actual producers and actual people who, like, depended on us.

[743] And we could just go to Stephen, like, I don't feel like recording this week.

[744] I know.

[745] We used to do that a lot.

[746] I know.

[747] We used to do that a lot, though.

[748] And it's a real testament to Stephen Ray Morris because he was doing it with us and then making it work no matter when we ended up recording.

[749] He wasn't saying like, yeah, that means I have to stay up until 6 in the morning editing this.

[750] Like, we didn't really know that.

[751] No. He never complained once.

[752] Hannah, you hear that?

[753] Stephen never complained.

[754] I'm just kidding.

[755] Hannah's amazing.

[756] Hannah's never complained once.

[757] Never.

[758] She's had reason to.

[759] She's had a lot of reason to.

[760] Cool.

[761] Well, I hope you.

[762] feel better.

[763] Can you take a nap today or no?

[764] We'll see.

[765] Okay.

[766] I'm definitely going to lay down while I do the rest of my work.

[767] That's for sure.

[768] Good.

[769] Well, thank you for listening.

[770] Listener, we're talking to you now.

[771] Definitely.

[772] Thank you for being here with us always.

[773] Thank you for stopping us in the street in New York City, if you did.

[774] It meant a lot to us.

[775] Definitely.

[776] It's nice to leave the house and then be reminded that people like you.

[777] I know.

[778] The first part happens so rarely these days, leaving the house.

[779] Yeah.

[780] It makes the second part even more special.

[781] It makes the second part such a huge payoff.

[782] Yeah.

[783] We appreciate you guys so much.

[784] We're so lucky to have this life because you guys listen to the podcast.

[785] Yeah.

[786] When we were running around New York and it was for the podcast and for the network, it just, it hits home that this life we get to lead is so lucky.

[787] And it's because you guys listen and like.

[788] Yeah.

[789] We appreciate it.

[790] We do.

[791] Stay sexy.

[792] And don't get murdered.

[793] Goodbye.

[794] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[795] This has been an exactly right production.

[796] Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[797] Our managing producers, Hannah Kyle Creighton.

[798] Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[799] This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachey.

[800] Our researchers are Marin McClashen and Ali Elkin.

[801] Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[802] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[803] Goodbye.

[804] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

[805] If you like what you hear, rate and review the show.

[806] Visit exactly right store .com to purchase my favorite murder merch.