354 - Heist You Up

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hard Star.

[3] Thanks.

[4] That's Karen Kilgareth.

[5] You're welcome.

[6] And here we are another week, another to spend together.

[7] Another season.

[8] Deep into autumn.

[9] What's that mug you're drinking from?

[10] Oh, this is just a mug Brandy Posey got me that says 12 -foot skeleton fan club on it.

[11] I'd laugh it.

[12] It's a picture of a skeleton.

[13] She gave that.

[14] me for Christmas.

[15] That's so good.

[16] The handle is broken, so I can't hold it from the middle.

[17] I have to hold it kind of weird from the bottom.

[18] It looks like a new thing old way that you invented to hold a mug, which I'm impressed with.

[19] Oh, you know, I spent that semester in Ireland.

[20] We all held our mugs like this.

[21] You spent that semester of college, of mug holding class.

[22] Yes.

[23] First I did pottery, then I held the mug I made.

[24] I would like to actually start.

[25] with an argument to say this.

[26] Yeah.

[27] I watched season three of Dairy Girls.

[28] Have you started it?

[29] Like a new season?

[30] There's a new season of Dairy Girls.

[31] I did not realize.

[32] It's a brand new season.

[33] And spoiler alert, if you need it to be fresh for you, I'm just going to talk about one thing that happens in the first episode.

[34] But the great Irish actor, Liam Neeson, plays a cop in the first episode.

[35] No. And he calls it London Derry.

[36] Okay.

[37] Well, yeah.

[38] It came out of his mouth, and I went, they're going to get so mad at him.

[39] I was like, and then I went, wait a second.

[40] He fucking said it?

[41] It depends on what side of the skirmisher on.

[42] Oh, he was a Protestant cop.

[43] Right.

[44] So they are like, it's London.

[45] It's part of London Derry.

[46] And they're like, no, it's dairy.

[47] It's fucking just Dairy.

[48] Okay.

[49] So that's why I think that's, but I didn't know there was a new season.

[50] I just kept seeing that it was like top picks of Netflix.

[51] and I was like, that's great.

[52] I'm so glad.

[53] Just thinking it was season one and two, which were like the most comforting, beautiful episodes of television I've ever seen in my life.

[54] There's more waiting for you.

[55] Yep.

[56] I didn't know.

[57] So you guys, Dairy Girls, if you haven't heard us talk about it forever, there's three seasons now.

[58] I'm so excited.

[59] I have been so freaking bored with television lately.

[60] Like, there's just really nothing right now.

[61] You know what I mean?

[62] I mean, here's what happens to me when I go through.

[63] usually it's on prime and I go into each of the like separate channels that I watch.

[64] It'll be like on Britbox.

[65] Yeah.

[66] Suggested for you.

[67] Seen it.

[68] And I literally will say it out loud.

[69] Seen it.

[70] Seen it.

[71] Seen it.

[72] Seen it.

[73] Where it's like you can't stay home for three years.

[74] No, exactly.

[75] And not watch every possible thing that you would like.

[76] That's exactly what it is.

[77] That's exactly what it is.

[78] I've been trying.

[79] There's new cold case files.

[80] Usually that brings me so much joy.

[81] Yeah.

[82] It's not.

[83] I'm missing something in my life right now, television -wise.

[84] Could it be that the key to watching Cold Case Files is you need to be in a hotel in a different city?

[85] That could be it.

[86] Kind of like exhausted and, you know, eating mac and cheese at 1 a .m. And watching Cold Case Files.

[87] Those are all my favorite things in the whole world.

[88] So that could possibly be it for sure.

[89] Yeah.

[90] It's just not the same, not being in a hotel room.

[91] You're right.

[92] I have been reading a lot, though, instead.

[93] But that's boring, too.

[94] God, I feel like, you know when people say, like, if you're boring, it means you're bored.

[95] No, no, no. If you're bored, that means you're boring.

[96] That's what I meant.

[97] I hate that saying because I'm bored so often.

[98] I use that saying to do drugs for a long time in my 20s.

[99] And I just want to say being boring isn't actually that boring.

[100] It's actually.

[101] kind of good for you being boring yeah okay in what way because you can just kind of like chill out and not be so for me the the energy i put into trying not to be boring yeah like whether it would be um needing to talk loudly in public places right or be with a certain crowd or be doing fucking stand -up comedy i've been in a real i've been in a real how the hell did i do stand -up comedy for 20 years place.

[102] Really?

[103] The effort and the kind of like non -stop guts that it took is such a clear trauma coping mechanism.

[104] Yeah.

[105] You don't even have to explain that to me. I kind of just like, as you say it, I'm like, oh yeah.

[106] Well, yeah.

[107] And we know a lot of comedians and like most of them have some trauma that makes sense.

[108] It's not like it's like, No, you're the only one.

[109] Everyone else is fine.

[110] No, no, that's...

[111] I mean, I think I found my people when I started doing it where I was like, oh, good.

[112] Yeah.

[113] I'm not the weird one anymore.

[114] I'm absolutely like, this is just how it is with these people.

[115] You're one of the normal ones now.

[116] They made me look good, a lot of them.

[117] Anyhow, we weren't...

[118] What are you reading?

[119] I've read a really good book called The Making of Us by Lisa Jewel, and it's like, it's basically like one of those stories of like a sperm donor and the like the four siblings who find each other as adults that were children of the sperm donor.

[120] But there's like a mystery and there's some murder going on in it and it's like or possible murder.

[121] I don't want to spoil it.

[122] But it was really, it's good.

[123] It's like it's like a mystery but not too heavy.

[124] You know what I mean?

[125] Like a lighthearted, a light mystery.

[126] Yes.

[127] So it's not like dragging me down in any way.

[128] It's just kind of compelling and fun and interesting to see what happens.

[129] Compelling.

[130] Why don't I use that word more often in my life?

[131] That's a great That's exactly the word.

[132] Word of the week.

[133] Look for what's compelling in your life.

[134] Oh, I like that.

[135] If you're not compelled, you're not compelling.

[136] That's the new saying.

[137] Oh, wait, should we just really quickly talk about the fucking midterms and how all of America stood up and said we're fucking sick of you taking away women's rights and being crazy fucking Nazis and attacking trans people and go home as a nation.

[138] We're so proud of us.

[139] Way to go.

[140] Gen Z came out and came up and you guys listened.

[141] So thank you so much for doing what needed to be done.

[142] You have to keep doing it.

[143] Just by the buy.

[144] Yeah, sorry.

[145] As a Gen Xer who never, like, didn't even understand why politics existed until I was in my 30s.

[146] Right.

[147] You guys are in it for the long haul now.

[148] Well, it was made that way back then for you not to participate.

[149] They didn't want you to participate.

[150] It wasn't like you were lazy or you were like, you know, it's like, it wasn't to rock the vote in the late 90s that anyone fucking gave a shit because they didn't want 21 -year -olds voting.

[151] They still don't.

[152] They still fucking don't.

[153] And that's why.

[154] And the midterms are why.

[155] Right.

[156] Exactly.

[157] It's so important.

[158] If Twitter goes down, Gen Z, well, they're all on TikTok, so it doesn't matter.

[159] Yeah.

[160] Gen Z has to know.

[161] How's TikTok for you, by the way?

[162] Oh, it's just a blessing every goddamn day.

[163] You buy anything good lately?

[164] I need to know.

[165] I already bought like three things that you were like, I found this on TikTok and I was like, what is it?

[166] And I just looked it up and bought it.

[167] I'm just getting the reciprocal, like, bonuses.

[168] The thing of it is, it knows you better than any relationship you've ever had, where they're just like, Karen, don't you think you need a new foundation?

[169] It's like, well, I did just buy one four days ago.

[170] It's like, yeah, but don't you need this one that's moisturizing and for older skin?

[171] Look at all these skins that look good on it.

[172] You should try it too.

[173] Look at this 20 -year -old who's wearing 50 -year -old makeup and it looks good on her to look good on you.

[174] Perfect.

[175] 50 -year -old makeup.

[176] Wait, let me really quick just because my sister and Audrey and I have a real good thread going back and forth constantly of TikToks.

[177] Okay.

[178] So it's everything from really beautiful, like, therapists giving you top five ways to deal with anxiety or whatever.

[179] Yeah.

[180] Through to, like, drunk girls falling down so wonderfully.

[181] Yeah.

[182] Just so, like, like a Broadway show.

[183] but a drunk girl falling down.

[184] They're just like so much good shit in there.

[185] I want to see those.

[186] Little kids lip syncing.

[187] Yeah.

[188] Little kids saying the F word.

[189] Oh, I can't get enough of the little kids saying fuck.

[190] Like that.

[191] And they don't kind of know what they're saying when your parents are like, what did you say?

[192] Because they're trying to make like a cute video and instead it's a foul video.

[193] I love those.

[194] There's a lot of people that are talking to their grandparents or talking to their grandmas.

[195] Mm -hmm.

[196] This one, like this one, Dan Lamort.

[197] his grandma has the top ten magnetic top ten it says family and then it has one two three four five six seven eight nine ten on either side and it's all her grandchildren her grand children and she rates them she likes the best ranking her grandchildren and then he's standing there and he goes I'm number four but let's see what happens now and he goes grandma did you see my new tattoo and she goes and then grabs him off of four and puts him to ten It's so funny.

[198] And it's very wholesome.

[199] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[200] That's very wholesome.

[201] I like that.

[202] I'm so upset.

[203] Oh, one girl, Jolie underscore Ari did a video of her mom holding a class at the local library teaching people how to grow basil.

[204] And it is the most wholesome.

[205] Yeah.

[206] It's the most wholesome thing you've ever seen.

[207] Yeah.

[208] Like there's just a bunch of stuff like that you'd never get to see otherwise.

[209] Okay.

[210] It's really funny.

[211] All right.

[212] I got to go back because I was like, I was a little overwhelmed with, like, suddenly all mine were dances.

[213] And it just was like, it's like not conducive to like a good night's sleep just to watch choreographed dancing for fucking six hours straight before you go to bed.

[214] You know?

[215] No, unless the dancers are like 10 gigantic construction workers wearing their like reflective vests and doing that Beyonce dance.

[216] Oh, I saw it.

[217] I saw that one.

[218] Yeah.

[219] There's a lot of those ones I love.

[220] All right.

[221] I'll do that one.

[222] Okay.

[223] Once you're in there, you have to say not interested to the ones you don't want to see as much.

[224] Oh, I didn't do that.

[225] And then you have to heart the ones that you like, and then it'll get you on the right algorithm.

[226] I didn't know that.

[227] Look at me being an old lady, not knowing how to...

[228] Could I explain that more grandma -like?

[229] I was literally doing gestures above my head.

[230] You touch the heart.

[231] Touch the heart.

[232] Uh, all right.

[233] Also, there's a girl that does a like three -minute time lapse, how she's getting good at roller skating.

[234] And it starts where she's terrible.

[235] and it ends with her doing, like, full front flips at the, like, skate park.

[236] Oh, my God.

[237] I like time lapse.

[238] Yeah.

[239] Okay.

[240] There's good stuff in there.

[241] Okay, I'll do it.

[242] Okay.

[243] Okay, fine.

[244] Fine.

[245] What else do you got?

[246] Oh, Marin, our researcher, Maron, very shamefully pointed out, she's an amazing researcher, does a great job.

[247] When she did the research, she misused the word life boat, and she meant, seats on the lifeboat.

[248] So we were talking about the Titanic having like 1 ,500 lifeboats.

[249] Oh.

[250] But it had 1 ,500 seats got on the lifeboats that they had.

[251] Okay.

[252] The numbers were kind of screwed up and I think there were some historians that were pretty upset about it.

[253] Really?

[254] Mm -hmm.

[255] That was just a mistake.

[256] Okay.

[257] No big deal.

[258] Miss wording.

[259] It's not a big deal.

[260] It's like, if you listen to the episode where I talk about the guy that survived the Titanic and you go like, God, that's a lot of boats.

[261] You got to know.

[262] I'm wrong.

[263] Well, part of the Titanic was that there were not enough lifeboats.

[264] So for you to then have a number that's out of control, doesn't, wouldn't make sense.

[265] And you'd go, oh, she must have misspoke or something like that.

[266] It's not a big deal.

[267] You have to really look at it like if your friend was forced to give a speech in front of the high school, but we do this for a living.

[268] Right.

[269] Every week.

[270] That's all.

[271] That's all.

[272] Don't come here.

[273] Are you coming here to fact check your newspaper article?

[274] Go away.

[275] bad idea.

[276] That's just a straight up bad idea.

[277] All right.

[278] Should we do some exactly right highlights?

[279] Yeah, let's do it.

[280] Oh, well, this week, Curt and Scotty had a little guest on bananas and her name was Georgia Hartstark.

[281] Hey, that's me. You guys talked about all the weirdest news in the world, I imagine.

[282] We absolutely did.

[283] We had a lot of fun.

[284] I love those banana boys.

[285] The bananas boys, can't beat him.

[286] Can't beat him.

[287] Can't beat them.

[288] And then on adulting with Michelle Boutot and Jordan Carlos, comedian and the Daily Show correspondent Roy Wood Jr. joins Michelle and Jordan to discuss all things adulting.

[289] Roy Wood is one of the funniest stand -up comics on the planet.

[290] Rumors he's going to replace Trevor Noah because he's a very popular correspondent on the daily show.

[291] He's so hilarious, truly one of the greats.

[292] Check that out, you guys.

[293] And then also, guys, the holidays are upon us.

[294] Hate to be the ones to tell you this.

[295] If you're looking for discounts on holiday gifts for your favorite murderinos, including yourself, our Black Friday sales starts November 25th, and it runs from the 25th to November 28.

[296] Everything is 20 % off.

[297] And now you can find merch for our exactly right shows on the MFM store.

[298] So shop for everybody, for every podcast, the lover of all podcasts, all at one time.

[299] It couldn't be simpler.

[300] That's right.

[301] That's at my favorite murder .com.

[302] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[303] Absolutely.

[304] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash?

[305] Exactly.

[306] And if you're a small business owner, you might know Shopify is great for online sales.

[307] But did you know that they also power in -person sales?

[308] That's right.

[309] Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere, online, in store, on social media, and beyond.

[310] Give your point of sales system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[311] From accepting payments to managing inventory, they have everything you need to sell in person.

[312] So give your point of sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[313] Their sleek, reliable POS hardware takes every major payment method and looks fabulous at the same time.

[314] With Shopify, we have a powerful partner for managing our sales, and if you're a business owner, you can too.

[315] Connect with customers in line and online.

[316] Do retail right with Shopify.

[317] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[318] important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

[319] Go to Shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today.

[320] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[321] Goodbye.

[322] You're going.

[323] It's your week to go.

[324] Yes, sit back, relax.

[325] I'm gonna.

[326] My lady.

[327] Let me take my slightly broken 12 -foot skeleton fan club mug and sip out of it.

[328] What if she gets to do the exact same thing for Christmas this year?

[329] Just so that...

[330] I'd love it because then I don't have to use this janky.

[331] ones that I glued.

[332] All right.

[333] Today, Karen, sit back, as I said, because I'm going to tell you about how one of the largest Vegas heists in history made a 21 -year -old, one of the most wanted women in America.

[334] Oh, shit.

[335] This is the story of Heather Tall Chief.

[336] Wow.

[337] Okay.

[338] Love a heist.

[339] Love a heist.

[340] The sources used in today's episodes are a Dateline article in an interview by Keith, our friend, Keith Morrison, friend of the show.

[341] Keith Morrison.

[342] A 2021 Netflix documentary called Heist, a crime reads article by Jonathan Lee, two Newsweek articles by Molly Mitchell, and all that's interesting article by Marco Maragatoff, and an Esquire magazine article by Lauren Crank and other sources that are listed in the show notes.

[343] Okay, here we are.

[344] Let's start on October 1st, 1993.

[345] We're in Las Vegas, Nevada.

[346] Yeah.

[347] Does bring you visceral memories or no?

[348] I mean, just the 90s were rough.

[349] They were.

[350] They said it a thousand times.

[351] This is a rough era.

[352] Well, imagine Vegas in 93.

[353] Like, it was kind of a pit at the time.

[354] It wasn't what it is today where it's like Bellagio and these beautiful fancy -ass wind hotel.

[355] Like, it's not nice in 93.

[356] A lot of cigarette smoking.

[357] I think they handed out free cigarettes at the door of every casino.

[358] I'm not wrong.

[359] I feel like it wasn't in its heyday.

[360] It was like, it was like what Times Square was in New York, you know?

[361] Yeah.

[362] It wasn't a family -friendly place at the time.

[363] No. They did have the Luxor.

[364] Oh.

[365] That was fancy, for sure.

[366] That was a true pyramid.

[367] Also, don't tell my dad that it wasn't a family -friendly place because guess where he would take us when he had us for the summer to Las Vegas for some reason?

[368] For how long?

[369] Like a weekend.

[370] Whatever.

[371] We'd stay at Circus Circus.

[372] We'd play video games while he would gamble.

[373] Just run loose.

[374] Come on, can you imagine.

[375] Hey, Marty, do your thing.

[376] Marty's got to do what Marty's got to do.

[377] Marty.

[378] Kids, you love the desert and you love air conditioning.

[379] That's right.

[380] And gambling and cigarette smoke.

[381] Let's do this.

[382] Let's do this.

[383] On October 1, 1993 in Las Vegas, Nevada, 21 -year -old Heather Tall Chief is clocking in for work as a Loomis armored van driver.

[384] And so it's one of those armored vans that are all, like, official, there's armed personnel, super high security.

[385] They're the people who go around distributing cash to the various ATMs, banks, and stores around Las Vegas.

[386] So we're talking a lot of money being exchanged.

[387] It's a heist movie starting.

[388] The Loomis vans are what you see at the beginning.

[389] Any kind of armored car.

[390] It's an armored car.

[391] We're there.

[392] Exactly.

[393] Again, this 21 -year -old Heather is the driver, meaning she doesn't handle the money directly or even get out of the van.

[394] She just kind of pulls up to where the two people in the back jump out and they're the ones who handle the money.

[395] But she's manning a vehicle that day that's carrying millions of dollars.

[396] On this particular morning, she's hauling $4 .6 million.

[397] Wow.

[398] A 21 -year -old should not be near $4 .6 million.

[399] But I bet that happened all the time in Vegas, because that's all they're just taking your money.

[400] It's just hand over fist and putting it in the bank.

[401] That's right.

[402] So Heather's not exactly the most experienced driver, and she doesn't even know Las Vegas that well.

[403] She'd just moved to the city.

[404] She's only had her driver's license for a few months.

[405] Her partners that are in the back, like admit on this documentary that she's a bad driver and almost hit one of them before.

[406] Oh, Jesus.

[407] On paper, she's not the most obvious candidate for a high -risk job that involves transporting millions of dollars around a pedestrian -filled U .S. city.

[408] But she has a certain energy about her.

[409] She's described as hardworking, empathetic.

[410] She's kind.

[411] She is so fucking beautiful, too.

[412] Like, that's another thing.

[413] She's very charming and very beautiful.

[414] And she shows a real interest in her co -workers' lives and well -being.

[415] She's just, everyone loves her.

[416] Sounds like a plant thing.

[417] Yes.

[418] Gorgeous.

[419] Yes, gorgeous.

[420] A gorgeous 21 -year -old plant.

[421] Well, because who better to go in and be like, I think I should do this job.

[422] Yeah.

[423] I can barely drive.

[424] Yeah.

[425] And they're like, okay, sounds good.

[426] Yeah.

[427] She knew what she was doing.

[428] Yeah.

[429] She's also interested in learning the ins and outs of the security industry.

[430] She's really good with a firearm, which is important for the job.

[431] She passed the test with flying colors.

[432] And because of all these things, and despite having only been employed with Loomis for around six weeks, she's already being promoted doing higher risk ATM cash runs.

[433] So there are levels of cash runs, and she's already, like, been promoted.

[434] As I just said, in different words.

[435] In a different order.

[436] One more time, just so we get it.

[437] A different order of words every time, but the same words.

[438] Just backwards and forwards.

[439] So these higher risk runs are carried out by a three -person.

[440] team.

[441] And rounding out Heather's group are her colleagues, Scott Stewart and Steve Marshall, who are the guys that actually handle the money.

[442] So when Heather starts the engine and takes up on her route, Scott and Steve are sitting in the back of the armored van.

[443] They're surrounded by these heavy bags of cash, and they're ready to hop out and reload the ATMs in various casinos.

[444] So they're like the action guys.

[445] She's like the getaway driver, but it's not like, but not getaway because it's actually her job.

[446] Right.

[447] She shouldn't be getting anywhere.

[448] She's not getting anywhere.

[449] She shouldn't be.

[450] And their first stop is our favorite casino, circus circus.

[451] That's right, baby.

[452] Do not do drugs inside circus circus, may I just say.

[453] Oh, that sounds like great advice.

[454] I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm not testing it, and I believe you.

[455] I'm just saying, of all the places you could be, you're not going to want to be inside circus circus when those mushrooms hit.

[456] Oh, my God.

[457] I haven't been in there since I was at.

[458] child, honestly.

[459] I can't imagine.

[460] It's a bit heavy.

[461] Well, oh, you can actually just watch, if you want to know what it's similar to, you can just watch Fear and Loatling in Las Vegas.

[462] Oh, sure.

[463] Yeah.

[464] They go there, and they're on drugs.

[465] There you go.

[466] So they get to Circus Circus.

[467] As they've done countless times before, Heather dropped Scott and Steve off at the casino's basement entrance.

[468] And so the guys get out with around $1 million in cash, these big bags of like locked cash bags.

[469] They go to various AT &M.

[470] throughout the casino, and it's one of their biggest casinos that they have to go to, like money -wise, because there's a ton of ATMs.

[471] So the run takes the longest amount of time, which is about 20 minutes.

[472] And so they are supposed to meet Heather.

[473] She's supposed to pick them up at a different entrance because they have to go all the way through the casino to drop off the cash at each ATM.

[474] So as expected at around 8 .20 a .m., Scott and Steve are finished reloading the ATMs.

[475] they exit the casinos, still carrying their Loomis bags, and they head towards the pickup spot, but the van isn't there.

[476] Uh -oh.

[477] At first, the men assume, oh, this dumb 21 -year -old, she must have gone the wrong way, and she forgot where was she supposed to pick us up, so they walk all the way back through the casino to where she had dropped them off.

[478] She's not there either, and they're just standing there with these bags of cash now, kind of like targets.

[479] You know?

[480] And so since she's not there, they tried to radio her.

[481] There's no answer.

[482] They think that maybe she had been a target because she, like, maybe she had been kidnapped.

[483] So, or maybe she got in a traffic accident.

[484] Maybe she got lost because she's new to the city.

[485] Like something, they weren't thinking something nefarious had happened.

[486] And she still has $3 million in the van.

[487] So they're like, maybe she got kidnapped.

[488] Oh, yeah.

[489] They call Loomis and tell them that Heather is MIA and not.

[490] Not long after authorities are alerted to the missing driver and the cash, and this kicks off the decade -long drama -filled search for Heather Tall Chief.

[491] A decade -long?

[492] Mm -hmm.

[493] Oh, Jesus.

[494] That's right.

[495] So let me tell you a little about Heather Tall Chief.

[496] She is of Seneca heritage on her father's side and Italian -American heritage on her mother's side.

[497] She's born in Buffalo, New York in January, 1972.

[498] Her parents are just high schoolers who like to party when she is.

[499] is born.

[500] They have a shotgun wedding.

[501] And in Heather's early years, her parents are unable to provide her with a safe, stable home.

[502] She grows up in a house where strangers are in and out, partying, openly consuming hard drugs and alcohol.

[503] You know, her parents are coming and going.

[504] Parties get so rowdy that cops have to stop by often to break them up.

[505] So it's not a good, it's not a good childhood home for her.

[506] That's not for babies.

[507] No. When she's a toddler, her mom leaves Buffalo and moves to San Francisco and puts Heather in sole custody of her father, who's struggling with his addiction and not always able to take care of her.

[508] He remarries a woman that Heather herself describes as emotionally and verbally abusive, saying that, quote, it was very, very clear how much she hated me. She manages to get through her childhood, and when she's 17 years old, she decides to leave home, heads to San Francisco, hoping she can reconnect with her mother, but finds that her mom is in a really rough spot, and she's not able to establish that, relationship at all.

[509] And it's incredibly hard for Heather, but she's a very strong young woman and decides to stay in San Francisco.

[510] She gets her GED and then trains as a nursing assistant and spends the next four years working in hospice care.

[511] And so this is the early 90s in San Francisco.

[512] So she's working with a lot of young patients suffering from AIDS.

[513] Oh, yeah.

[514] That's heavy.

[515] And it's really hard for her.

[516] By all accounts, she's an excellent caregiver.

[517] One of her co -worker says that she, quote, had this amazing empathy with patients.

[518] Even the ones closest to death would be smiling when she left their bedside.

[519] But, of course, it takes a huge emotional toll on her every time one of her young patients dies of AIDS.

[520] And so she turns to drugs and pretty quickly her life spirals.

[521] Eventually, the emotional stress is so intense.

[522] She's unable to maintain the job and just starts doing drugs and drinking alcohol to cope.

[523] And by early 1993, at just 21 years.

[524] old.

[525] She has no money, few people to turn to, and feels incredibly hopeless about her future.

[526] Oh.

[527] I know.

[528] That is until one night, who's going to come into this picture now?

[529] Is it going to be a handsome young man?

[530] It's going to be a handsome young sociopath, right?

[531] Yeah.

[532] Yeah.

[533] Well, he's not that young, actually.

[534] He's a lot older than her.

[535] He's 27 years older than her, actually.

[536] Sorry, I misledged you with the young man thing.

[537] That's all right.

[538] She looks like a young Naomi judge.

[539] Oh, my God.

[540] So she's, like, gorgeous.

[541] And this guy looks like Benicio del Toro.

[542] So like...

[543] Gorgeous in his own way.

[544] Yeah.

[545] Not young, just now.

[546] So, like, the most attractive people you've ever seen in your life, essentially.

[547] Yeah.

[548] So Heather is in a bar in San Francisco, and this handsome man offers to buy her a drink.

[549] Wait, which bar I could have been there.

[550] I know.

[551] Literally, like, 1991 in San Francisco.

[552] 93.

[553] Was it the deluxe?

[554] Oh, that was the...

[555] year before I moved.

[556] I could have been there.

[557] They might have just saw you do stand -up.

[558] Gornado.

[559] They were like, God, we saw this girl.

[560] She was 14th on this lineup.

[561] Amazing, real deep.

[562] She really got us into wanting a closer relationship.

[563] She gave us this vibe of, like, needing each other.

[564] I caused this crime.

[565] He did.

[566] This is your fault.

[567] His name is Roberto Ignacio Solis.

[568] He's from Nicaragua, and he's this charming, romantic man, older man. He's 48 years old, and she's 21.

[569] So, of course, he's unlike any man she's ever met in her life, because of course, right?

[570] Yes.

[571] Yeah.

[572] The two of them hit it off.

[573] He has this intrigue about him.

[574] He tells her about his interests, which include mysticism and self -hypnosis.

[575] Yeah, that guy at the bar.

[576] You know that, you know, when you get all hot and bothered because a guy tells you he's into self -hypnosis.

[577] In five, four, three, two.

[578] But he's also into, like, tarot card readings and, like, mysticism and also sex magic.

[579] Oh.

[580] Which is spelled with a CK.

[581] CK.

[582] It's like a certain kind of...

[583] Yeah.

[584] It's the kind of thing that make...

[585] I guess the idea behind it is that, like, sex has so much energy behind it, and it's, like, taking the energy of sex and using it in your actual life, not just in sex.

[586] That is the most, like, I'm 42 years old, and I have never experienced this in my life.

[587] kind of definition.

[588] Basically, it's a way someone can convince you you have to like, hey, we've got to harness all this sex energy so we can go use it to like work out or whatever.

[589] Right.

[590] Is that what it is?

[591] I mean, it sounds like the 90s version of would you like to come up and see my erotic edgings where it's just like, are you cool enough to get into sex magic or are you lame?

[592] Right, exactly.

[593] Are you a square or like, do you have an open mind and an open heart, 21 -year -old.

[594] Of course, you're 21.

[595] Every 21 -year -old is an open mind and an open heart.

[596] Like, that's the easiest fucking place to start.

[597] And I think that thing when you're in your 20s and you're kind of like out on your own and that idea of somebody, basically what this guy said is, I'm super deep.

[598] Yeah.

[599] I read tarot cards.

[600] I like mysticism.

[601] Yeah.

[602] I hypnotize myself.

[603] Yeah.

[604] And let me tell you, you think you know magic.

[605] Well, I know magic that's spelled with a K at the end.

[606] That's right.

[607] No idea.

[608] Like, it's the, basically, the occult version of the boyfriend that's, like, name three of their albums.

[609] And you can't.

[610] And you're shamed.

[611] And he's like, fine, I'll fuck you anyway.

[612] And then you're in.

[613] That's the bond.

[614] That's exactly what this.

[615] I don't even have to read the next couple paragraphs because you just explained the bond.

[616] No, I'm totally serious.

[617] You just explained it so well.

[618] She later says, quote, when I discovered all these metaphysical concepts, it made me feel like I wasn't floating out in the ether.

[619] So, yeah.

[620] It was, like, grounding her.

[621] But you know what that actually is?

[622] Can I just say?

[623] the floating out in the ether is addiction and that feeling of not being grounded, of feeling like you don't know things, everybody else does, you're lost, da -da -da, that's addiction.

[624] And so those kind of solutions that come that are like learn sex magic and you won't have this feeling anymore.

[625] It's like, right, but you're still going to be an addict deep down because that's how you're raised.

[626] Or it's depression too.

[627] I feel like floating out in the ether having nothing to cling on to in my experience is what depression looks like.

[628] So that is a really good point and she seems like had probably both in her life going on.

[629] Yeah, both of our points are just, it's best to look to yourself.

[630] Right.

[631] As opposed to like, I'm going to read some cool book at like a bookstore where the book bindings aren't complete because that's San Francisco in the 90s.

[632] Get into sex magic all you want.

[633] Like that might be your thing.

[634] But you don't have to have like a swarthy dude in the bar tell you about it to like to make it meaningful.

[635] Well, and also, what if that isn't the thing that doesn't make you feel like you're floating out there anymore?

[636] And then what are you going to do?

[637] Right.

[638] There should be more than one book that solves it for you.

[639] It should be this podcast.

[640] We have all the answers to people that this thing happened.

[641] That's right.

[642] Forty years ago.

[643] We're the ones right here.

[644] I just wish I'd done it differently.

[645] That's all I'm trying to say.

[646] I wish I'd made better decisions for myself.

[647] Look, where you are right?

[648] You're fine.

[649] You're good.

[650] You made it.

[651] You're second.

[652] You all.

[653] are sex magic, baby.

[654] Wait a second.

[655] Hold on.

[656] You're right.

[657] Hold the phone, Karen.

[658] Hold on.

[659] This is the moment I've been waiting for.

[660] I made it.

[661] You and your mug.

[662] You guys have, you did it.

[663] We did it.

[664] So, of course, the relationship moves super fast.

[665] Within weeks, she's moved in with him.

[666] And she, it's important to remember how young she is, compared to him, especially, how fragile, emotionally she is.

[667] And he just swoops in with all these solutions to her problems.

[668] She says, quote, he was the stillness in the eye of the storm.

[669] He gave me a sense of purpose, direction, and security.

[670] He made me feel like a queen, which she deserved.

[671] She was, you know?

[672] But of course, there's some massive red flags around Roberta, like the fact that he has aliases.

[673] Lots of aliases.

[674] Oh, how many?

[675] Lots.

[676] I think like 20s in the 20s.

[677] So what do we cut it off at?

[678] Like five?

[679] Yeah, yeah.

[680] Three?

[681] Under a dozen.

[682] Let's say under a dozen is...

[683] Yeah.

[684] Then that's a red flag.

[685] Yes.

[686] Eleven, fine.

[687] 13?

[688] No. Baker's dozen?

[689] No way.

[690] No way.

[691] Gross.

[692] And he apparently...

[693] Oh, he apparently goes by at least 20 different names.

[694] It says it right there.

[695] Thank you, Marin.

[696] She knows the questions Karen's going to have.

[697] He also has done prison time for murder.

[698] In 1969, when he was 23 years old, he killed a 61 -year -old, Loomis -armored, guard during a botched robbery.

[699] Oh, no. Uh -oh, foreshadowing.

[700] Foreshadowing or backshadowing.

[701] Backshadowing.

[702] He was sentenced to life in prison, but while incarcerated, he wrote several critically acclaimed anthologies of poetry under a pseudonym.

[703] And so several famous writers lobbied for his release because of his amazing poetry should somehow get him off from killing a person, an innocent person.

[704] Oh, man. So in 1991, he's paroled.

[705] Oh, just before she meets him.

[706] Yeah.

[707] And so not long after he's released from prison, he's back to his old ways.

[708] So in July 1993, just a few months after they met for the first time, Roberta has convinced Heather to hastily move to Las Vegas with him.

[709] They get an apartment off the strip, and within weeks of getting there, he's pressuring her into getting a job as a Luma Armored Van Driver.

[710] For her.

[711] Exactly right.

[712] Man, that sucks.

[713] Because here's a thing, like when we were talking about that other stuff.

[714] And it's like, yeah, the age thing, look, if you meet somebody and you have that magic moment.

[715] Yeah.

[716] There's no fighting that.

[717] No. Especially when you're 21.

[718] Yeah.

[719] You have a couple ciders down at the tornado.

[720] Sure.

[721] Whatever.

[722] Oh, the tornado.

[723] But then the peeling, the layers of like, but this, but this.

[724] Yes.

[725] And then, yeah, this sucks.

[726] Well, these are the stories.

[727] Yeah.

[728] It's the stories that we tell that are always...

[729] For every story that we tell on this podcast, there's a million that are like...

[730] And then they lived happily ever after.

[731] Or they didn't.

[732] But they didn't rob a bank.

[733] It was like, fine.

[734] And then...

[735] But the idea that the reveal is he's murdered an armored truck driver before, and he's essentially using her like a tool.

[736] He's using her like he would use a map or a gun or anything else.

[737] And that fucking sucks.

[738] Well, just wait.

[739] Because...

[740] So Heather knows about...

[741] Roberto's pass and the botch robbery that sent him to prison involving a Loomis guard, but she's not concerned.

[742] She trusts him.

[743] So in August, 1993, she applies for that job and she gets hired.

[744] Yeah.

[745] So, of course, she tells Roberto the ins and outs of her job.

[746] He asks a lot of questions, wants to know all the details.

[747] She starts taking notes for him, tells him about Circus Circus and how it's the longest period that she's alone for.

[748] And it's at the beginning of the day.

[749] So she has the most money at the time.

[750] Long story short, a robbery is in the works before long.

[751] Roberta runs a garage space under a fake name and fake business.

[752] And this is going to be the place that Heather will soon bring her armored vehicle and all the cash to, when she escapes, to avoid suspicion.

[753] And meanwhile, Heather starts practicing the drive from circus, circus to the garage, making sure she gets it completely right and is like they're practicing for this heist, essentially.

[754] Right.

[755] Yeah.

[756] Heather's super nervous.

[757] And she hasn't even known Roberto for a full year yet, but she convinces herself that going all in on this plan is the only way to prove to him that she's devoted to him.

[758] In the documentary of the heist, he, like, shows her hypnosis tapes and, like, gets her hypnotized to, like, get her ready to do this.

[759] So, like, they're super into, like, sex magic and tarot and all the things we talked about.

[760] But, yeah, like, grand larceny is not the same as that.

[761] It's such a weird.

[762] entree into it.

[763] It is.

[764] This is how I'm deep.

[765] I also loved rob people and murder people.

[766] Right.

[767] So now we're back to October 1st, the morning of the heist, and Heather is ready.

[768] Roberta has given her detailed instructions and everything is in place.

[769] She drops off her two co -workers, our friends, Steve and Scott, at the designated spot at Circus Circus.

[770] Then they go inside, and in a moment that will change her life forever, she drives away.

[771] Now, I wonder, sorry, at the very beginning, I was thinking, if she just did that independently.

[772] Like, because that would be a...

[773] Wouldn't that be a thought that would go through your head?

[774] Yes.

[775] If you had that job where you're just like, everything's on the straight and narrow, but then they leave and you're just like, there's so much money in this truck I could just leave forever.

[776] Yeah.

[777] Well, it's $3 .1 million that's in the truck.

[778] And 1993 money, which is almost double.

[779] Like, I think more than double today.

[780] So it's $6 .something million.

[781] She drives, just takes off with.

[782] She soon arrived at the garage, where Roberto was waiting for her, but she kind of panics when she gets there because she realizes, as he aggressively takes her gun, which rattles her, she suddenly realizes that this man that she knows is capable of murder doesn't really have a lot of incentive to keep her around at this point.

[783] She's done her job.

[784] So she's like, oh, fuck, is he going to kill me?

[785] But he doesn't.

[786] And they're just running on pure adrenaline.

[787] She changes into her disguise that's been picked out by Roberto.

[788] She's going undercover as an old lady.

[789] Oh.

[790] She has this, like, gray shampoo set wig, a big old, like, you know, sweater, Afghan sweater, massive glasses.

[791] Together they put all the bricks of cash into several moving boxes, tape those up, load those boxes into the vehicle.

[792] They leave the garage and they make a quick stop to mail the boxes of cash to Miami.

[793] So they're just mailing huge boxes of $3 .1 million to Miami and just trusting it'll get there.

[794] It's like if I plan the highest.

[795] It like shouldn't have gone so well.

[796] It really shouldn't have.

[797] Yeah.

[798] But it does.

[799] So then at 1120 a .m., Heather and Roberto go to the airport with Heather in her disguise, disguised as a frail elderly woman.

[800] And Roberto, who's now dressed as a doctor, he pushes her in a wheelchair.

[801] They get on the plane.

[802] The flight crew notices something weird, though.

[803] The old woman simply stands up from her wheelchair and walks right off the plane when they land.

[804] And they joke about witnessing a miracle.

[805] So you got to act the part the whole way, you know?

[806] The whole time.

[807] Yeah.

[808] That's like a thing in theater where it's like once you exit the stage, you should still be acting as you go past the curtains.

[809] Don't just run.

[810] Yeah.

[811] Don't just suddenly drop it and start making phone calls because the people might be able to see you.

[812] It's like that thing but for Florida.

[813] Oh, I need that.

[814] At least act old and decrepit until you're inside an apartment.

[815] of some kind or a hotel room.

[816] Yeah.

[817] Also, she's, like, beautiful with perfect skin, so it's going to be kind of hard to, like, pretend that you're, I don't know.

[818] She's like, I never went outside.

[819] That's right.

[820] That's my secret.

[821] SP at 30.

[822] I ate cherries every day.

[823] What?

[824] Why are you standing and doing cartwheels?

[825] Meanwhile, the police are looking for Heather.

[826] They're afraid that Heather had been kidnapped.

[827] Like, they're still not sure that she had anything to do with this.

[828] So there, of course, this huge manhunt goes on.

[829] And but in Denver, Roberto and Heather take a limo to a motel.

[830] They change outfits.

[831] Then they go from Denver to St. Louis to Missouri to New Orleans.

[832] Finally, they end up in Miami where they hide out in a hotel.

[833] They get the cash that they had sent.

[834] No problems there, because of course not.

[835] Like, what the fuck?

[836] It basically seems like at this point, Roberto takes the money somewhere else, and Heather kind of has nothing to do with the money.

[837] Like, she's kind of just hiding out.

[838] Like, her job had been done.

[839] By mid -October, which was only a couple weeks after the heist, Police have received a few interesting leads.

[840] The charter pilots, of course, were like, oh, we saw this miracle where this woman, like, they told on her, basically.

[841] Oh, sorry, that was a chartered plane.

[842] It wasn't like a, it wasn't a regular plan.

[843] Yeah, sorry, yeah.

[844] That's also not a good idea.

[845] No, I don't think so either.

[846] It's, like, so obvious and so, like, specific of, like, who was on that.

[847] Yeah, because you still have to show them your ID.

[848] Yeah.

[849] It's not like you can just get on a chartered plane.

[850] Right.

[851] And buy your way somewhere.

[852] You still have to give it all up.

[853] Right.

[854] So we're not just get on a Southwest and, blend in with all the other weird old ladies that act young.

[855] In 93.

[856] Yeah.

[857] The man who rented the garage to Roberto realizes who his tenants were, he tells on them.

[858] They basically figure out that Heather has a lot to do with this, and she wasn't a victim in this.

[859] But they're still worried about her because they also are like, well, he doesn't need her anymore.

[860] So they're all kind of assuming he killed her at some point.

[861] So like, yeah, her whole family is like worried that she had been killed for this $3 million.

[862] But back in Miami, Heather is sick with anxiety.

[863] is increasingly isolated and it only gets worse as Roberto becomes more and more distant.

[864] He uses his charm to enlist a young local woman named Marlene to run errands for them.

[865] So they had kind of had an agreement that it would have been an open relationship on his part.

[866] So he brings in another young girl.

[867] And Heather's starting to feel pushed to the side.

[868] She's not sure what she can do about it because she's a fugitive.

[869] She has to basically stay in this hotel or motel the whole time.

[870] Before long, Roberta decides to get the cash out of the U .S. and so the trio all end up in St. Martin about a month later.

[871] Then something totally unexpected happens.

[872] Heather discovers that she's pregnant.

[873] Oh.

[874] Marlene, the third, is pissed.

[875] And so she gets the fuck out of there.

[876] So now it's just Heather and Roberto again.

[877] He organizes fake travel documents to the Netherlands and where they'll be protected from extradition back to the U .S. So their escape plan is executed perfectly.

[878] Again, no hitches.

[879] They end up in Amsterdam.

[880] everything is fine.

[881] They have fake passports and all this shit.

[882] Do they speak the language?

[883] Like, how do they, they're just there?

[884] The language of what?

[885] I don't know.

[886] Like, the language of, I have, here, I have three million dollars.

[887] Let me do it.

[888] I want.

[889] That is a good language.

[890] A lot of people speak that language.

[891] They end up in Amsterdam in 1994.

[892] And in the summer, Heather gives birth to the couple's son.

[893] By the way, by the time they escaped to the Netherlands, it's only been about a year since they first met.

[894] It's been a very short whirlwind romance, if you can call it that.

[895] Yeah.

[896] Back in the United States, investigators are scrambling to track the couple down.

[897] In May in 1994, the case is featured on Unsolved Mysteries as part of an FBI alert.

[898] Tips roll in, but the trail goes totally cold.

[899] So they're like Scott Free essentially at this point.

[900] Wow.

[901] Yeah.

[902] So investigators think that if she's alive, Heather's probably living the high life somewhere with Roberto.

[903] But of course, the reality is way different.

[904] She's deeply unhappy, does not have any access to the stolen money.

[905] Like, she's not living the high life at all, even though she's the one who, like, made the big heist, you know?

[906] Like, give her that money.

[907] She should have set up a little bit of a deal where it's like, if you're going to mail three boxes, I get one of the boxes.

[908] Just because I, yeah, it took the hit.

[909] That's right.

[910] And then Roberto is, like, increasingly cold and distant.

[911] He continues to have affairs with other women.

[912] So eventually, Heather has had enough and she realized that she's being manipulated.

[913] And so, and motherhood has changed her completely as well.

[914] All she wants now is to give her child a stable, safe home.

[915] So not even a year after the heist, Heather leaves Roberto, takes their two -month -old son and $18 ,000 with her.

[916] And Roberta doesn't even try to convince her to stay.

[917] So she leaves.

[918] But she stays in Amsterdam.

[919] But not much time passes before the money is running out.

[920] And as a fugitive, Heather's options for making money are super limited.

[921] But, you know, she can't just walk into an office and get a job.

[922] So she begins working as an escort.

[923] And in early 1997, through the connections she's made working, she gets passports for her and her young son.

[924] They get new names.

[925] And in February that same year, the heist is featured on America's Most Wanted with a $300 ,000 reward for information.

[926] So the FBI is not fucking around.

[927] Heather, who police still think could have been killed following the robbery, she's ranked number three on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list, which makes her the highest ranked female criminal since the list began in 1950.

[928] and the most wanted women in America at 21 years old.

[929] Do they have Roberta's name?

[930] Yeah.

[931] She's the only connection.

[932] Oh, he's on there too?

[933] Yeah, yeah, yeah, they know.

[934] Yeah.

[935] From that point on, Heather starts working as a hotel maid, and aside from this huge secret she's keeping, things start looking up.

[936] She soon meets a man, she falls in love with.

[937] He seems to genuinely love her back and wants to take care of her.

[938] They have kind of this happy, quiet life under this new alias, But she, of course, knows that the clock is ticking because when her fake passport expires in a few years, the whole thing could fall apart.

[939] And all she really wants to do at this point is give her son a stable life.

[940] And that's not going to happen if they have to keep moving around based on the passport.

[941] So then over a decade passes since the heist.

[942] And Heather really wanting to give her son a stable life is ready to come clean, knowing it's the only way.

[943] So on September 12, 2005, Heather, who's now 32 years old, flies to Los Angeles.

[944] She meets her attorney at the airport.

[945] They sneak off to a hotel, and under strict confidentiality, her lawyer invites the New York Times and Dateline to attend a private interview where Heather tells her story, tells them everything, and explains why she's returned to the U .S. The plan is to sell the story to other media outlets to raise money, which would go towards repaying what was taken during the heist.

[946] So she knows she's going to have to pay back everything she took.

[947] And she also knows she's probably going to have to go to prison.

[948] Doesn't matter.

[949] She's totally relieved.

[950] Her relief is palpable in the interviews.

[951] She says she feels positive despite the circumstances.

[952] And when she talks about her son, she says, quote, I'm doing this for him.

[953] I feel that by turning myself in and surrendering, I can give him a better life, one that he deserves.

[954] And she says she feels like she's setting herself free.

[955] And he's only like 10 at this point, by the way.

[956] Just three days after arriving in Los Angeles, Heather travels back to Vegas for the first time since the heist.

[957] There, she hands herself to the U .S. Marshal, and she's charged with bank larceny, fraud, conspiracy, and making false statements to obtain a passport.

[958] If she's convicted, she's faces up to 40 years in prison, in federal prison.

[959] Oh.

[960] Her family back in Buffalo are stunned.

[961] They all thought she was dead.

[962] Like, they didn't know that she was alive and that they had another grandkid at all.

[963] Oh.

[964] I know.

[965] That's sad.

[966] They said it was like seeing a ghost.

[967] During her trial, Heather is remorseful, and she says that Roberto targeted her when she was young and vulnerable.

[968] And she also claims that he brainwashed her into following his orders through things like hypnosis and our friend, sex magic.

[969] Yeah.

[970] Nonetheless, Heather pleads guilty to embezzlement and possession of a fraudully obtained passport.

[971] At her sentencing in March 2006, she tells the court, quote, I've made a decision to do what is right.

[972] I want to be accountable.

[973] She receives five and a half years in a federal prison and is ordered to repay $2 .9 million to Lumis before she does.

[974] which I'm going to call bullshit on because there's no way they weren't insured for that money.

[975] They're insured, but also he's got it.

[976] Yeah.

[977] Go find that guy.

[978] Yeah.

[979] You get it.

[980] Exactly.

[981] Go find his moving boxes.

[982] She doesn't have it.

[983] She clearly doesn't have it.

[984] They would have found it if she had had it and it had been repaid through insurance.

[985] There's no fucking way it wasn't.

[986] Also, if she had it, she'd be living on the Amalfi Coast.

[987] That's right.

[988] She'd be fucking George Clooney's neighbor and be like, peace.

[989] Yeah.

[990] She wouldn't have had to turn herself in if she had the money.

[991] No. In June 2010, she's released on parole and remains under federal supervision until 2015, so she's free now.

[992] Today, Heather's 50 years old.

[993] She remains incredibly close with her son, who's now 28 years old, and they've both been able to reestablish themselves in the U .S. Heather's reportedly working in health care once again, but other than that, we don't know much about her.

[994] She's very secretive.

[995] She doesn't like the spotlight.

[996] In fact, in the documentary, the heist that I watched about her, an actress plays her.

[997] talking head.

[998] So, like, she doesn't even want to be on camera.

[999] That's smart.

[1000] Yeah.

[1001] She keeps a low profile and she protects her privacy.

[1002] As for Roberto, Heather says she hasn't spoken to him since she left him in 1994, but she remains fearful that he'll someday track her down.

[1003] And she said that even if she knew where he was, she wouldn't tell anyone.

[1004] Because of the danger?

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] Yeah.

[1007] Which is sad and scary, you know, that she's still so afraid of him.

[1008] Yeah.

[1009] Robert Ignacio Solis remains on the run with the missing cash and is still wanted by the FBI.

[1010] If he's alive today, he would be 77 years old.

[1011] And that is the story of Heather Talcief, the 21 -year -old woman who pulled off one of the largest heists in history.

[1012] So we're giving her credit for the heist, but then we're kind of saying it's not her fault also.

[1013] Right.

[1014] Well, she drove off.

[1015] She did drive off.

[1016] And she served her time.

[1017] She did.

[1018] I can see myself in that, at that age, In that era, behind that wheel, literally being like, can't I just drive off right now?

[1019] Couldn't I do this with no sex magic involved?

[1020] There's one part that's so 21 -year -old in the heist where she explains how once they got to Miami, they like took the money out of the bags.

[1021] And the money had come from the ATM machine.

[1022] So it was like used money.

[1023] And she wanted to roll around in it.

[1024] And she was like, it was the most disgusting smelling money.

[1025] Like the reality of it, it was pretty like.

[1026] like, oh, yeah, that's what it's really like, is it actually is disgusting, smelly, dirty, money, and it doesn't feel that good.

[1027] This isn't a movie.

[1028] This isn't a movie.

[1029] You should probably realize that pretty quickly.

[1030] Yeah.

[1031] First of all, I think there are rules from what, and I feel like last podcast on the left has talked about stuff like sex magic a lot.

[1032] I'm sure.

[1033] I think my knowledge of it is probably because of Marcus Parks, but I feel like you can't have that kind of materialistic drive.

[1034] Attachment to money.

[1035] To use in sex magic.

[1036] Got it.

[1037] It's supposed to be more like nature -based.

[1038] And like, these are human drives.

[1039] You're not supposed to be like using it for manipulation.

[1040] That's bad.

[1041] Yeah.

[1042] It did have, it did seem like that positive witchcraft, Satanism, like nature aspect of it is what it's supposed to be.

[1043] Yeah.

[1044] Right.

[1045] I think it is.

[1046] But also it's just like, yeah.

[1047] Any dude that's like opens with, hey, I read tarot cards and I'm really into, you know, self -hypnosis.

[1048] It's just like, sir, no, do your own heist.

[1049] Sir, you can buy me a rusty nail or a lemon drop shot, but that's as far as this is going.

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] Like, slow it down.

[1052] Yeah.

[1053] And also just to be in the midst of that, like that's such an actual heart -dropping moment when once they're driving away and she realized and he takes the gun.

[1054] Yeah.

[1055] And then she's like, oh, whoops.

[1056] Like, that's the moment she's out of that.

[1057] All you are is an accessory.

[1058] that point.

[1059] You've served your purpose.

[1060] I mean, maybe he was in love with her, the fact that she served her purpose, he was a murderer, but he didn't kill her.

[1061] He could have.

[1062] Right.

[1063] Yeah, he must have loved her.

[1064] And also, she clearly was very in love with him to have it not even occur to her until that moment.

[1065] That's like watching your fifth date guy be rude to a waiter.

[1066] And then you're like, oh, shit, except for it's a horrifying murder crime version of it.

[1067] That's a very good point.

[1068] Well, that was great.

[1069] Thank you.

[1070] Good job.

[1071] That was a really, for a shorthy, that was very compelling, good story.

[1072] Thank you.

[1073] I'm glad it went well for you.

[1074] Me too, because I would have fully fucking bailed.

[1075] Thanks guys for listening.

[1076] As always, we appreciate you.

[1077] You're our pals.

[1078] We'll do a heist with you.

[1079] We'll heist you up.

[1080] Yeah.

[1081] If that's what you need, if you're 21 and you're looking, looking for a grounded plan for your future.

[1082] Here we go.

[1083] Well, actually, you know what?

[1084] We'll be the ones on the other side of the 48 -year -old man trying to get you to heist with him.

[1085] And we'll just be like, can I talk to you in the bathroom for a second?

[1086] It's important.

[1087] Go home right now.

[1088] That's who we are for you.

[1089] Always.

[1090] That's who we are.

[1091] And we always will be.

[1092] So stay sexy.

[1093] And don't get murdered.

[1094] Goodbye.

[1095] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1096] This has been an exactly right production.

[1097] Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1098] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1099] This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris.

[1100] Our researchers are Marin McClashon and Gemma Harris.

[1101] Email your hometowns and fucking hooray's to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[1102] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[1103] Goodbye.

[1104] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like.

[1105] like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

[1106] If you like what you hear, rate and review the show.

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