'Rabbit Hole,' Episode 6: Impasse

[0] From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bobarrow.

[1] Today, rabbit hole.

[2] Episode 6.

[3] My name is Brad.

[4] How did you become the biggest star?

[5] Hey, man, congrats on your journalism.

[6] Oh my God.

[7] Our kids are listening to Elvis.

[8] We need to keep fighting back.

[9] The guy been stormed in.

[10] Subscribe to you.

[11] So it's been a while since you did one of these, huh?

[12] It's been a long time.

[13] How long?

[14] Probably two years, maybe.

[15] That's interesting.

[16] Yeah?

[17] All right.

[18] So Felix decides to sit down and talk with you for his first interview since the whole Wall Street Journal controversy.

[19] Yeah.

[20] And I was curious, first of all, like, just why he was doing this, like, why he was sitting down with someone from the mainstream media after so long.

[21] Yeah, I was surprised.

[22] Because, you know, I've been, like, I've been asking for, like, two years.

[23] Here we are.

[24] And also, like, after following his career for so long and just seeing everything that's happened, I just wanted to know what he made of it all.

[25] I was actually, like, in preparing for this going back and looking at some of your old, your old video, like old, old old videos.

[26] Yeah, like sort of Minecraft days.

[27] Do you remember feeling sort of happy during that time?

[28] Like, was that a good time in your life?

[29] Yeah, I think so.

[30] I think things were going pretty well.

[31] Things were going great.

[32] watch more than ever expected definitely and then like 2015 and into 2016 I think there was sort of this larger cultural thing happening where like the line between the internet and the like real world was sort of started to break down a bit yeah people started paying more attention to what's happening on YouTube and do you feel like I sort of remember from that time that things were starting to get a little edgier like there was sort of more incentives to try out Yeah, I think YouTube at that time was at a place where no one really knew where the limit was.

[33] And I think that's why it almost became, yeah, a lot of channels just pushing it as far as possible because there was no restrictions at the time, I think.

[34] And I think also my channel went through this, I didn't only want it to be associated with kid humor, even though edgy humor is a lot of childish, but I think it's more stepping up to teen humor.

[35] Do you feel like you recognize that there was a risk in getting sort of more into that space?

[36] That there could be like a backlash?

[37] I think I was really not focused on that at all in retrospect.

[38] I was pretty, I'll start my word, irresponsible about it.

[39] I don't think I really looked at too much of the consequences.

[40] Do you remember, like, getting pushed back from anyone in your life that was, like, before the journal article?

[41] Well, I kind of wish I had some.

[42] Clearly, I didn't.

[43] But fans were just into it, and they thought.

[44] I think, yeah, everyone, it's, it's when you're in this space where people understand that it's a joke, uh, you're in this area where everyone is on the same page.

[45] It's not really, no, I don't remember having that being.

[46] And was that how you sort of.

[47] viewed like that period as just people joking and being sort of stuff that might look serious if you look back at it today but at the time was just all joking yes i think so was there ever something that you like stopped yourself because you were like oh that's too edgy uh well definitely the infamous sign as felix and i were talking it became clear pretty quickly that like the things that he was doing in his videos these kind of like edgy experimental things.

[48] The goal isn't to purposely push too much or makes people feel bad.

[49] Including this Fiverr video with the Death Tall juice sign, they all felt pretty low risk to him.

[50] And how do you draw that line?

[51] How did you decide what was too edgy and what was just edgy enough?

[52] That's a good question.

[53] I mean, anything that would, I mean, the way me and my editor's work is that, that we kind of go uncensored, and then in the edit, we'll definitely cut out most of the edgy jokes or whatever.

[54] If we recognize that someone might get offended or hurt by it, then there's no reason to intentionally put it in.

[55] I think that's the way we looked at it.

[56] You're already to go to the Wall Street Journal?

[57] I feel like we're almost there anyway.

[58] Okay.

[59] When did you know that this was going to be a thing?

[60] As it was happening.

[61] It went really fast.

[62] I think just like two days before I heard about that whole thing.

[63] And it was so, it seemed bizarre.

[64] I was like, well, I couldn't possibly understand why it was a thing even.

[65] I didn't think it was going to be a big deal either.

[66] What was that day like for you?

[67] Like, where were you doing?

[68] It was on Valentine's Day.

[69] Me and my girlfriend had rented this little cottage.

[70] And then, I mean, I can laugh about it now, I guess.

[71] But it was crazy.

[72] Like, extremely stressful.

[73] I didn't know what was going to happen.

[74] So you just spent the day on, like, calls with people.

[75] I spent the day being in this little cottage outside with no internet.

[76] And I told myself, okay, I should not check what is happening on Twitter right now.

[77] And then I go on Twitter.

[78] And then there's, like, J .K. Rowling, calling me a fascist.

[79] And I'm like, how is this happening?

[80] This is crazy.

[81] And when you sort of were trying to figure out how to respond to that, Were you torn between, like, okay, on one hand, like, I probably should apologize for this.

[82] Yeah, and I did apologize in the video.

[83] But also wanted to be like...

[84] I also wanted to set the record straight.

[85] At least give my side of the story.

[86] And, you know, it was crazy because Wall Street Journal, they also came to my house to say, we want to help you, like give you a full story again.

[87] It just felt kind of crazy.

[88] Oh, so after the story published, they came back, yeah.

[89] And you said, I said, well, I'll tell my story on my channel.

[90] And that's kind of what I, how I saw it.

[91] Was there a moment where you're like, fuck, like, what if, what if they have a point?

[92] And I got too edgy and, like, were there moments of?

[93] Yeah, of course, definitely.

[94] It wouldn't have happened if I didn't push it too far, obviously.

[95] But I think the whole thing also that happened with Wall Street Journal made people really strongly want to support me. People felt like it was unjust what happened.

[96] And they wanted to support the channel even more for that.

[97] So I really felt like, well, maybe media doesn't want to write nice things about me, but at least I have the support from so many people that it felt like it doesn't matter to that.

[98] I don't really care if that's the case.

[99] I think also after the Wall Street Journal thing, I sort of got labeled as a bad person.

[100] And then that sort of line of the word just kept going, I think.

[101] Is there one sort of piece of criticism that stands out that you sort of wrestled with more than others?

[102] I think the constant association with the alt -right and politics in general has been really frustrating.

[103] Because that whole world feels so far away from me. so yeah that's frustrating I think any label you know it seems pretty common to just label throw labels around oh he's this he's that and be called things that you don't think you are at all what are your politics I'm just curious how do you identify what issues do you are you passionate about beyond YouTube I think I'm more apolitical than anything but I'm probably somewhere in between I don't know I mean, I don't really feel passionate about politics.

[104] I know that's a really lame reply.

[105] I wish maybe I was, but I am not that invested.

[106] Are there any politicians who excite you?

[107] No. Like anywhere in the world.

[108] I could not name one, no. I don't know.

[109] Because you know, there's this whole community of, like, conspiracy theorists and people who, like, think that you're secretly hiding.

[110] I know.

[111] Conspiracy theorists is the right word for it, yeah.

[112] I mean, I was looking at, I have this whole log of, like, messages from these Discord servers for these all right guys, and they're saying stuff like, you know.

[113] Discord servers?

[114] Oh, yeah.

[115] Like, PewDiePie will red pill all his millennial and Gen Z subscribers.

[116] It will be glorious.

[117] I get the feeling that PewDie Pye is far more red pill than he lets on, keep me the great ally, stuff like that.

[118] Like, what is that?

[119] That's this conspiracy theory of Mongo Jamba.

[120] I think it's really cringy as well when people try it's annoying as well people trying to have me as some sort of symbol that doesn't apply let's talk about subscriber PewDiePie like when you started did you have any idea that it would become this whole meme that would like I think you know the answer I thought it would be a fun joke for like two weeks maybe max and now it's like six months later were there parts of it that you thought were funny like the printer hack or like Yeah, I think a lot of it was really funny.

[121] People, you know, putting up posters, putting up banners.

[122] And yeah, the printer hack was kind of pushing it, but it was still pretty funny.

[123] No one was hurt by it at least.

[124] So, Kevin, the timing of all this is that you met Felix just weeks after the shooting at Christchurch.

[125] Right.

[126] And not only was this his first interview with the mainstream media in years, But it was also the first time that anyone had really gotten to ask him about the attack.

[127] Walk me through that day and like where you were when you heard that this had happened.

[128] Yeah, I mean, it was like 4 in the morning.

[129] I rarely checked my phone at that time.

[130] But I had got a bunch of messages and I was like barely conscious.

[131] And then obviously I saw what had happened.

[132] And just this pit in my stomach is just awful.

[133] to hear about that someone would go so far what were some of the messages you got at 4 a .m. It was a big mix of fuck PewDiePie.

[134] Now he's really gone too far.

[135] We need to shut him down.

[136] And just this is awful.

[137] And even people saying, you know, I don't think he's responsible.

[138] But blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[139] Even though it's like, it really, really hurts.

[140] It was a fucked up day.

[141] It was a fucked up week.

[142] It's been a fucked up month.

[143] I mean, fuck.

[144] I feel bad even like, oh, it's so bad for me that he used my name when it's like people really affected by it.

[145] But it felt like I was dragged into, again, like this whole sphere of politics.

[146] Do you feel like the responsibility that you have?

[147] Because, you know, so many of your fans are young and they're so passionate and whatever.

[148] Or like, do you feel like you've sort of gained a new, I guess, responsibility or ability to, like, shape the way those people see the world?

[149] Yeah, obviously, yeah.

[150] It is a lot of responsibility.

[151] What do you think the responsibility is?

[152] Well, who I don't know exactly what I would say.

[153] But, you know, having such a large audience, obviously.

[154] It is a responsibility.

[155] Yeah, I mean, I stress out about publishing stuff in the New York Times, and we have four million subscribers.

[156] You only have four million?

[157] I know, it's pretty bad, right?

[158] It's true.

[159] One fallout, one piece of fallout from this Wall Street Journal thing and then some of the other stuff and then this news, you don't think, like there are a lot of people who don't follow you, but who hear your name and think, oh, that guy's problematic, or he's a neo -Nazi, or he's all right.

[160] Right.

[161] Like, how does that affect you?

[162] It is obviously tiresome to be associated with something that you're not.

[163] It's a lot more than I think I signed up for.

[164] I don't want it to seem like I'm completely innocent either and I've just done nothing wrong and I've just been targeted and I don't think that's the case either but it does feel pretty unfair I know also how people's minds kind of shift toward certain things and I hope that within the next maybe year or two people will have their mind changed because that's usually how long it takes for people Because your videos will change?

[165] Yeah, yeah, I think so.

[166] I don't know, what's your message to those people?

[167] If you could, like, shout something from the rooftops and, like, hear everyone, have everyone hear it?

[168] Just click on the latest video I upload, and it's literally just me laughing at memes.

[169] I don't really know.

[170] So it's literally just, like, watch my stuff, and you'll get it.

[171] But a lot of people are not going to watch your stuff, right?

[172] That's the problem.

[173] They're going to see these headlines.

[174] Yeah.

[175] I mean, do you feel like you can do anything to set the record straight at this point, or have you done pretty much all you can do?

[176] I can definitely set the record straight more, yeah.

[177] What would that look like?

[178] I don't know yet.

[179] I think it's step by step.

[180] I don't think anyone's going to change your mind over one thing.

[181] I need to keep pointing out.

[182] I think hopefully conversations like this helps as well.

[183] I see it as a bill block kind of I am sort of curious about like your relationship with the media and sort of I mean that's sort of a consistent theme of the past couple years for you is that you feel like sort of the media has bad intentions when it comes to covering you that there's publications that consistently get things wrong like how have the past couple of years shaped or changed your views on me, yeah.

[184] Well, a lot of times me calling out is when things have been said that I felt like were either one -sided or flipped in a way that wasn't really fair.

[185] And I think, you know, I should at least defend myself.

[186] If those things happen, it's very frustrating to see certain things published about you that you feel like that is not what is true about me at all.

[187] I mean, the hostility toward the media on, not just your channel, like, the subreddit, and, like, I just look through that stuff and I'm like, dear God, these people are, like, never going to believe anything.

[188] Like, it's like, these are people who just reflexively distrust everything we do.

[189] I mean, I think it's because people who watch me know who I am and then they see me in this article that is so different.

[190] Obviously, they're not going to, they feel like it's unfair or that it's not correct.

[191] I don't really know where the line is drawn of who controls that, you know.

[192] But I think it's getting a bit tiring as well.

[193] I'm not really interested in having some sort of, I don't like the media sort of approach to things.

[194] That's not my intention.

[195] And I think, yeah, yeah.

[196] I hope at least I've grown a little bit to see past that even if an article isn't perfect, then it doesn't have to be a whole thing about it.

[197] I mean, let's be clear, you've made a lot of videos about the media.

[198] I think my, I know it's like...

[199] It seems to be like your primary enemy sometimes.

[200] Let's put that out there.

[201] Yeah.

[202] I don't want it to seem like I'm, oh, I'm sitting.

[203] that with the media now, so now I'm going to be, like, cuddly, wuddly, or like...

[204] I mean, that is a little bit how it feels.

[205] That's good, then.

[206] I mean, I don't want to be too hostile, but I also feel like my, genuinely, like, my opinion about a lot of it has changed over the years.

[207] I think going through all these controversies constantly, and obviously, when I feel the need, I need to defend myself, I do, but I also think I'm getting to a point where I don't think it's going anywhere.

[208] And Kevin, what did you live?

[209] leave this interview thinking about, especially around this question of why he finally talked with you?

[210] I mean, obviously, like, he doesn't need me to get a message out to the public.

[211] He has millions more subscribers than the New York Times.

[212] But by talking to me when he did, it almost felt like he was proposing a truce.

[213] He was saying that, like, that era of my career is over.

[214] And I'm going to change.

[215] I wanted to talk seriously and honestly for a moment about my thoughts on what's been going on for the past couple months.

[216] And hopefully you can get a better understanding.

[217] And a few days after our interview.

[218] Something happened that I don't think anyone would have predicted.

[219] The Christchurch shooter said subscribe to PewDie Pie.

[220] Felix posted a new video.

[221] I think it's time to end the Subscribe to PewDiePie Movement or me. Where he directly asked his fans to end the subscribe to PewDiePie meme.

[222] To have my name associated with something so unspeakably vile has affected me in more ways than I let Shown.

[223] I just didn't want to address it right away and I didn't want to give the terrorists any more attention.

[224] I didn't want to make it about me because I don't think it has anything to do with me. Not long after that.

[225] Nine years ago, I uploaded my first video onto YouTube.

[226] this is what that video looked like Felix hit 100 million subscribers I won't bore you with every step of the way of the journey it's been long it had its ups and downs and to celebrate I made a lot of mistakes on the way but I've grown he reflected on how he got there and I feel like I've finally come in turn with the responsibility I have as a creator about 100 million subs too late but you know but the channel's done a lot of good too And also pledged to give a $50 ,000 donation to the Anti -Defamation League, which is one of the organizations that had criticized him for making Hitler Nazi jokes.

[227] We did it!

[228] I want to thank all the people I work with over the past couple years, but most importantly, I want to thank the bros. And yet again, it sparked a controversy.

[229] Stop!

[230] I just wanted to interrupt this video because I need to make an announcement.

[231] Did you guys see the video?

[232] I made where I celebrated 100 million subscribers.

[233] But this time, it wasn't the mainstream media coming after him.

[234] I made the mistake of picking a charity that I was advised instead of picking a charity that I'm personally passionate about, which is 100 % my fault.

[235] It was the internet.

[236] The whole internet just didn't believe it.

[237] Like, why is he donating to his charity?

[238] Look at his face.

[239] Full conspiracy mode.

[240] Some of his fans claimed that the Anti -Defamation League was too partisan.

[241] Websites and comment sections filled up with all these conspiracy theories saying like PewDie Pye is being blackmailed into this donation.

[242] I'm sorry for all the confusion and I'm sorry for messing this up.

[243] That's what I do.

[244] So he apologized and took back his $50 ,000 pledge.

[245] Good one.

[246] Here we go, guys.

[247] Historical moment.

[248] My first video ever was a Minecraft video.

[249] And in the midst of all this, nearly a decade after it first brought him attention.

[250] God, after all these years.

[251] Felix uploaded a video of himself playing Minecraft.

[252] Is that a fucking horse?

[253] That's a freaking horse.

[254] Oh my God, there's horses in Minecraft.

[255] Can I ride it?

[256] Have you ever wondered why we go to war or why you never seem to be able to get out of debt?

[257] Why there is poverty, division, and crime.

[258] What if I told you there was a reason for it all.

[259] What if I told you it was done on purpose?

[260] What if I told you that those who were corrupting the world, poisoning our food, and igniting conflict were themselves about to be permanently eradicated from the earth?

[261] You might think that an idealistic fantasy.

[262] Well, let me tell you a story.

[263] To hear more, go to whatever app you're using to hear me right now.

[264] Search for rabbit hole, two words, and hit subscribe.