Jamie Fiore Higgins (on her experience as a manager at Goldman Sachs)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair, expert experts on expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by the newly returned Monica Padman.

[3] Welcome home.

[4] Thank you.

[5] I'm reborn.

[6] I prayed for your safe return and my prayers were answered.

[7] I'm here.

[8] You're here.

[9] The other person that's here with us today is Jamie Fiore Higgins.

[10] This is a juicy story.

[11] It is.

[12] We got an inside look into something you don't normally get.

[13] Yes, she is a former managing director of Goldman Sachs.

[14] Aside from her own personal story, which is really interesting, just the behind the scenes at those places, I had no idea how it all worked.

[15] And you get a really cool glimpse of what that world is like.

[16] She has a book telling her story called Bulley Market, My Story of Money and Misogyny at Goldman Sachs.

[17] She looks at her experience in a very cool.

[18] It's not victimy at all.

[19] It's very introspective.

[20] She takes a lot of responsibility.

[21] It's pretty fascinating.

[22] It is.

[23] I've found the things I learned from her.

[24] up all the time now that I look at finance and big business.

[25] Really good episode.

[26] Please enjoy Jamie Fiore Higgins.

[27] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[28] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[29] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[30] Welcome to Mom, is this carbonated?

[31] Yes.

[32] Thank you.

[33] Oh, so I was going to ask you because as I've been binge listening to everything, how are you doing with your caffeine?

[34] Because I am a heavily caffeinated person.

[35] There's been a round of justifications that have landed me in a very regrettable spot.

[36] So one was a two -week trip to Europe.

[37] What am I going to monitor my caffeine there?

[38] We're on vacation.

[39] That's right.

[40] You need that European coffee.

[41] And plus, you also have the time differential.

[42] You want to make the most of that first day.

[43] You don't want to be exhausted.

[44] I use that as an excuse for sure.

[45] Totally.

[46] I was also traveling with one of my really good friends, Eric, who's also a recovering addict.

[47] So all we have is that 2 p .m. Let's drink three iced coffees and get wild.

[48] And I'm going to do that on vacation.

[49] I come home and I'm like, all right, time to, you know, rain this in.

[50] And then I'm like, oh, we got to record fast and hard.

[51] Big time.

[52] So the last two weeks have been really among our busiest two weeks we've ever had.

[53] And so I'm like, what am I going to be tired in these interviews?

[54] No. Okay.

[55] What's the consequence you're receiving of caffeine?

[56] Well, that's kind of my take because I fully embrace it.

[57] If there's nothing bad coming along with it.

[58] And, you know, I feel like caffeine's one of those things where it's really bad for some things, but then they find that it's really great for something else.

[59] So I feel like on the margin, I'm probably all right.

[60] Well, I do read all the time that a cup of coffee is really beneficial for you because of the antioxidants and whatnot.

[61] Here are my issues.

[62] I am previously an insomniac, right?

[63] So sleeping is a big thing already.

[64] Ideally, I should not be having any caffeine pass, you know.

[65] 12, because if I do that, then, you know, I take like three things non -narcotic to go to sleep, some weird.

[66] No, I try to not be on Trazodon, but of course, yes, I've been on Trasidone this week because I've been drinking such an enormous amount of coffee.

[67] I just don't want to be on anything.

[68] Also, I did notice in my, like, six weeks of low caffeine, so calm in traffic, so less interested in joining the family debate.

[69] Like, just a generalized calmness, and I'm fired up enough.

[70] I don't know if I need it.

[71] Walk me through your coffee consumption.

[72] Where are we at?

[73] What was its peak?

[74] I have to imagine on the job we're here to discuss.

[75] Well, you know what I actually discovered on the job?

[76] Diet Mountain Dew.

[77] Oh, good for you.

[78] I'm not expecting that.

[79] Very Jersey.

[80] I mean, Mountain Dew would be Jersey of you.

[81] Yes.

[82] Right.

[83] But you went diet Mountain Dew to maintain that.

[84] I really never drank coffee until I started working at Goldman.

[85] And then I upped the intake once I became a parent.

[86] Right.

[87] another survival technique.

[88] It's not only the awakeness, it's the quality of how you have to be when you're awake, meaning before kids, you go to work, and what do you really do?

[89] I don't know, we watch TV, we exercise, we read books, but then it's like you really have to be on for your kids talking and listening and so.

[90] Yeah, yeah, you've got to keep forcing yourself to care.

[91] And looking at homework.

[92] So that's where it really peaked.

[93] Now I am one of those people where like, I'll work on the never -ending cup.

[94] So I kind of always have a cup going.

[95] Well, good for you.

[96] Have you discovered, and again, we're not sponsored by them.

[97] I have no financial ties to them.

[98] But Ember, a friend of mine turned me onto it.

[99] And this was instrumental in me reducing.

[100] So Ember is this mug that sits on a charger at night.

[101] And then when you fill it up in the morning, it keeps it hot.

[102] And so what I realized quickly into using it was, oh, I used to go through coffee quite quick because I didn't want to get cold.

[103] And now there's no time pressure.

[104] It's going to be a nice hot town.

[105] See, I have no problem with cold.

[106] Reheating.

[107] Really, it never gets cold.

[108] I don't reheat.

[109] Oh, okay.

[110] Room temperature.

[111] Oh, you like a nice room temperature.

[112] Well, you know, it's matching my body.

[113] It goes down real smooth.

[114] I feel like I read in a study once.

[115] This will come up in the fact check, maybe.

[116] That you'll consume more water if it's not super cold, if it's room temperature, because it's matching to your body temperature.

[117] So it's not as jarring.

[118] You know what I did the other day on recommendation of my brother, I did one of those, what McCollets.

[119] Macha?

[120] No. The caffeine drinks, the Red Bull.

[121] Oh, a Red Bull.

[122] Sure, sure.

[123] My wife's currently having a real love affair with a sugar -free Red Bull.

[124] That's what I got, a sugar -free red bowl.

[125] Something about it, it tastes kind of like the kids cough syrup.

[126] I try to make them drink.

[127] Yeah.

[128] I hate the smell.

[129] But I love the, and I'm totally being Jersey here, and I can't find it anywhere again.

[130] Wawa?

[131] Don't know Wawa.

[132] Me either.

[133] What's Wawa?

[134] Just the best place ever.

[135] It's a Jersey, Philly 7 -Eleven.

[136] Oh.

[137] Perfect.

[138] And they make great hoagies.

[139] Sure.

[140] Most convenient stores do.

[141] And they have these.

[142] They're basically knockoffs to like the Starbucks cold brews.

[143] Okay.

[144] They're great.

[145] They're nice.

[146] They're really nice.

[147] Okay.

[148] And do they have it on tap?

[149] Because cold brew on tap's really fun.

[150] No, the cans.

[151] Okay.

[152] We've already learned so much about you just in this deep dive.

[153] You probably can learn more about somebody by asking them how much coffee they drink than any other thing.

[154] You don't have a story prepared for that.

[155] Well, I, of course, was fascinated when you were pitched to us for the obvious reason of a woman's experience at Goldman Sachs.

[156] That seems like a unique story.

[157] But to be honest, once I started reading your book, we go from day one of the introduction to the place in the however many -week program it is to train you to work there.

[158] And already I'm like, oh, this is a whole view of a world I've always been curious about.

[159] And really, I just have no experience with.

[160] I haven't seen a cool movie about it.

[161] I haven't seen a documentary about it.

[162] I don't know what happens.

[163] How do they turn you guys into cash registers, you know?

[164] Machines.

[165] Yeah.

[166] So even if you weren't immediately intrigued by the feminine aspect, which I was, I think just learning what that process is like is really fascinating.

[167] Let's back up.

[168] Your second generation from Italy.

[169] Yes.

[170] Right.

[171] And you go to a college that you dreamt of going to.

[172] And shortly before graduating, you've taken a personality test.

[173] And they tell you what you'd be great at and you see that.

[174] and you're in total concert with their decision, you're going to be a social worker.

[175] You announce it to your parents, and they're like, fuck you.

[176] Really?

[177] Oh, those immigrant parents.

[178] Tell us that little journey of even deciding to be an employee there.

[179] I always really found myself wanting to do something like social work.

[180] So as a kid, I had really severe scoliosis.

[181] If I hadn't had surgery, I would have died because my spine started to compress my heart and lungs.

[182] Was it discovered in one of these?

[183] elementary school screenings.

[184] Did you do one too, Monica?

[185] Oh, yeah.

[186] I wonder if those went out of favor, but no, no, they still do, because I always get my kids extra screenings just to double check.

[187] I think it skips generations, though.

[188] Funny enough, my sister had a typical mild case.

[189] I was little, maybe five years old, and I was in a bathing suit, and my grandmother saw that I was tilted.

[190] And so I went to my sister's doctor, and then I started getting watched.

[191] But being that kind of kid who was bullied and always kind of teased because of my back brace and we had surgeries and I had surgery when i was 13 i had a spinal fusion so i always kind of just felt like i wanted to help other people and so i got the personality test and i was so excited my mom was like not happening i love my mom and it was so sweet she's going to be 80 in a couple months we went out to lunch not long ago and she said you know i'm really sorry and i said listen we all do the best we can with what we have and what we came from And goodness knows I'm trying my best with my four kids, but I know it's inevitable.

[192] I'm going to make mistakes.

[193] You also inherit a paradigm bigger than you.

[194] So in their case, her parents made sacrifices to leave Italy, leave a farm, come here, do what they could, work terrible jobs.

[195] She got to go to college.

[196] She got to go to college.

[197] And my mom didn't even have plumbing.

[198] She would always say, I didn't feel impoverished.

[199] I really just didn't think about it because we were all together.

[200] But she didn't have anything.

[201] And same with my father.

[202] They were the only ones in their family that got to go to college, the local college.

[203] you know, which they worked their way through.

[204] And they really did a lot for themselves in their generation.

[205] And for my dad, actually, sadly, he lost his father who took his life when he started struggling after the depression in his business.

[206] So money for my family was not about things, not about things.

[207] This is safety.

[208] Money is about safety.

[209] I heard you talk about your father.

[210] It was just about safety and knowing that you would be okay.

[211] And even now to this day, I mean, I joke, I took my mom shopping on Mother's Day and she wanted a workout sweatsher and we went to Old Navy and we're checking it out.

[212] It was $49 .99.

[213] And she say to me, I can get this for $16 .99 at T .J. Max.

[214] There we go.

[215] Well, you get the max for the minimum.

[216] I was like, Mom, I get that, but you like it.

[217] And T .J. Max is 15 minutes away.

[218] What's our time work?

[219] Do you know the next day?

[220] She returned it and got one at T. Good for her.

[221] Good for her.

[222] Oh, it's just embedded.

[223] It's just part of it.

[224] So their whole point was we didn't take out loans to pay for this very expensive college education for you to get a job not making as much.

[225] Well, and here's where I'll defend them even further.

[226] You picked a high status school.

[227] You applied to a bunch and the highest status one came in and you're like, well, I got to go there.

[228] Which is?

[229] It was Brynmar College.

[230] It's one of the seven sisters.

[231] Well, it's funny because I got full rides.

[232] At other places.

[233] But my parents also wanted me to go because they said.

[234] a school like that will open up doors for you.

[235] I was upset that I didn't get to do it, but I kind of just did what I was told.

[236] And I felt I owed them so much.

[237] What I put them through with the physical therapies and the surgeries, and I know that's what good parents do.

[238] But I still felt like...

[239] You were a big drain on the system.

[240] I was a drain on the system, especially because, and they never made me feel this way, but do the math.

[241] I'm 46.

[242] My brother's 56 and my sister's 55.

[243] Okay.

[244] You were an accident.

[245] I was a gift from my...

[246] God, right?

[247] That's what the Roman Catholics would say.

[248] Exactly.

[249] So here they were.

[250] They had their two kids.

[251] They probably had everything plotted out.

[252] You show up all crooked -backed with high aspirations.

[253] That's it, man. Busted up.

[254] Sell me for parts.

[255] Oh, no. Was I a little bit bummed?

[256] But I did what I was told.

[257] And my dad always said I was the best ROI.

[258] You love that.

[259] Return on investment.

[260] It took me nine correspondence with Tim Ferriss to actually figure out what he was saying.

[261] I just acted like I knew, which is my pattern.

[262] It's such a Goldman Sachs thing.

[263] I also say, when you started making money, for me here, I remember so vividly when we got our Spotify deal.

[264] It was a windfall, and it was really exciting.

[265] And I had therapy that day, and I was talking to my therapist, and she was like, how do you feel?

[266] Are you so happy?

[267] And I was like, I just feel relief for my parents.

[268] They can feel safe now.

[269] And I got to give them that.

[270] That was the takeaway, not like, I'm so happy.

[271] Yeah, a lot of people.

[272] Their parents would want a house or something.

[273] But the gift for them is like, oh, I don't have to worry about her.

[274] Yeah.

[275] That's right.

[276] That's like the enormous gift.

[277] Also, knowing as a child who feels like their parents did so much for them that you've got them.

[278] Yeah, exactly.

[279] But I will say, for me, the earning was not zero to 60.

[280] So it was a little bit fraught with some shame, too.

[281] Like in my first year, I made more than my parents ever had.

[282] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[283] And that felt a little icky.

[284] Interesting.

[285] I didn't feel icky, but I had the moment where my girlfriend, Brie and I had lived in this one -bedroom apartment in Santa Monica, $600 a month for a decade.

[286] We went from there to the house that my sister -in -law lives in 1 ,000 feet that way, which is a great house, like 3 ,600 square feet on a half acre with a swimming pool.

[287] And I remember she and I spent the night there before even the utilities were turned on.

[288] We're like, oh, let's go sleep in sleeping bags.

[289] And I was laying in there, and I just had this feeling of like, I skipped too many steps.

[290] I'm supposed to have three starter houses that I trade up on.

[291] Like, that part was just very weird to me because I have no example of it, and I feel like maybe even, well, it must get taken away from me because I didn't, yes, I didn't step up.

[292] It just kind of now I'm here all of a sudden.

[293] It was a bizarre feeling.

[294] The other thing I would point to that is how you felt about the work you were doing to get the money.

[295] Yeah, I felt proud of it, but I also knew that much more labor would have been involved in Michigan.

[296] I'm shooting the shit in front of a rolling camera and having fun.

[297] You break your back and take out loans and build a business before you get this.

[298] To me, it was always the Jordash factory in Jersey City that I would drive by every morning.

[299] And I would see these people with their paper lunch sacks going into the building and just being like, they're working so much harder than me and I'm making so much more money.

[300] There was some guilt and then also some, who the heck do you think you are to leave?

[301] Oh, I see.

[302] Yeah.

[303] I really relate to the survivor's guilt thing.

[304] Why am I not walking into that factory?

[305] Do I believe I deserve to not be doing that?

[306] I don't want to take away any particular people's success because I feel we live in in a world of abundance where there's opportunities for everyone and cream rises to the top.

[307] However, a lot of times things happen because random, you know what I mean?

[308] Sure.

[309] And that one random thing can lead to...

[310] There was an article yesterday in the New York Times.

[311] They look at all these indicators of what will lead to people migrating north on the economic lab.

[312] And there's, of course, education.

[313] Married parents is a huge, huge indicator.

[314] Like, that's a huge step up.

[315] They're adding a new kind of metric.

[316] And if you didn't co -mingle with anyone else that was successful, which is, again, luck of the - Yeah, luck of the draw.

[317] Did your parents have any exposure to people?

[318] Yeah, cream rises to the top.

[319] Probably 80 % of the cream doesn't even get into the.

[320] That's exactly right.

[321] That's exactly right.

[322] And just knowing what could be possible.

[323] It's not a meritocracy.

[324] I mean, there's still so much nepotism.

[325] A hundred percent.

[326] And that's why I always.

[327] always just felt so fortunate that I got that spot.

[328] You start with the orientation.

[329] She goes into this kind of stadium seating little room that they have.

[330] The person comes in at 7 a .m. on the dot, locks the door and begins the orientation and lays out the rules for everyone.

[331] And the people that are in there already, I'd be fucking panic coming from a blue color.

[332] Well, I don't know.

[333] I'm cocky, too.

[334] I don't know.

[335] But tell me about how you were feeling and the people you were meeting in your story versus theirs.

[336] Some of it has to do with how we got there.

[337] Now, I wasn't the only one certainly hired in that room without connections, but a lot of people had them.

[338] I had 38 interviews to get my job.

[339] Oh, my God.

[340] This is where I was lucky.

[341] Goldman came to Bryn Mawr.

[342] So it paid off going to that school then.

[343] I mean, weirdly.

[344] I'd like to say I did a good job in my interview.

[345] Of course.

[346] However, they were the ones on that campus.

[347] Well, this is what we need to state.

[348] All things are true at the same time.

[349] You have to be bright.

[350] You have to work your fucking ass off.

[351] Even if your dad went to Harvard or whatever, you have to do all those things.

[352] After you've done all those things, you also need luck.

[353] That's right.

[354] So, yeah, they came.

[355] I had on -campus interviews there, and then I went to the Philadelphia office.

[356] I had about 10 interviews there.

[357] Then I went to what they called Super Days, which are on a Saturday morning in one of the big buildings, and it's speed dating.

[358] There's six doors with two people at each door, and it's like every 30 minutes, you go, you interview, then you go to the next door, then you go to the next door.

[359] Oh, my.

[360] So I did one of those.

[361] realized after when I was the interviewer on Super Days, that's when they basically decide, okay, you're Goldman Quality.

[362] Then you have to find a home.

[363] Can we say, well, you would know because you were in the recruiting side of things.

[364] What constituted Goldman Quality?

[365] I'm dating myself a little bit because I don't know what it is right now.

[366] But in my experience back then, you're probably already coming from a certain set of schools.

[367] Because remember, if anyone's there, it probably start off on campus and they only go to campus on certain schools.

[368] So great resume, great GPA, interest in finance.

[369] I joke that by the time I was interviewing, I probably wouldn't have made my own cut.

[370] You're also at the whimsy of whatever the current thought is at Goldman.

[371] So you had a mathematics degree.

[372] Who knows if one month before they're like, we need more mathematicians.

[373] We have too many finance people.

[374] Like you don't even know what prevailing wins.

[375] And actually, when I was being interviewed, their tagline was mine.

[376] wide open.

[377] We want anthropology majors.

[378] We want sociology majors, psychology majors.

[379] Now, years later, I think they started doing an analysis where they sliced and diced people's careers that they had hired and what they came with.

[380] And I think then they started determining they really wanted more STEM.

[381] Okay.

[382] That those people tended to do best.

[383] Sure.

[384] But I was not an economics major.

[385] I was a math major.

[386] It's very different.

[387] Yes, of course.

[388] You make it through and then you're at the introduction, a gentleman to your right introduces himself.

[389] He's like tall and blonde and blue -eyed.

[390] He was like an Abercrombie model.

[391] Here I come in with my like frizzy jersey hair.

[392] I was so clueless, my T .J. Max outfit.

[393] You drove six hours to get there.

[394] Seriously.

[395] No makeup.

[396] I really just didn't know.

[397] And big firm handshake.

[398] I joked that like I felt my knuckles rolling against each other.

[399] Wall Street Journal open and even buy a Wall Street Journal.

[400] And when do you say like Wharton?

[401] Warton.

[402] Taylor Hughes, Wharton Economics.

[403] Ew.

[404] Right.

[405] Like I didn't even, I'm picturing myself in this room and everyone's introducing them, you know, Harvard finance, Wharton Economics.

[406] That's like a archetype of a bad guy in a movie.

[407] It really is.

[408] That's like out of Wall Street or something.

[409] But that's the real.

[410] That's what it was.

[411] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[412] He would lock the doors.

[413] On my first day at 701, I started hearing like the doors shake because if you were late and it was like one minute late, you'd have to go get a sign.

[414] mind apology note from your partner who would inevitably be your new boss's boss or boss's boss's boss's boss.

[415] I didn't even know who my partner was.

[416] So for me, because of the way the trains worked on New Jersey Transit, I started leaving the house at like four so I could get there by six because it was either six or like 652.

[417] You can't roll that dice.

[418] You can't roll that dice.

[419] Okay, really quick, when you talk about the door locking part, I guess now when I hear you say at the ostensible message is you can't come in if you're like that's right that's not what i interpreted as when i was reading it i think if i saw the leader lock the door what i would be sensing was okay we're in the bubble now what we say in here and do in here isn't for out there and this is like a little code of secrecy like a safe space well and not in a good way in a we're gonna let that fly in here, you're going to learn the truth.

[420] You're going to learn how the sausage is made.

[421] I have to imagine all these places have a presenting image of what they are, and then they have the behind the scenes what we really do.

[422] In some weird way, you're inducting people into the code of silence.

[423] A dumb analogy is a writer's room in Hollywood is a sacred place.

[424] There was a Supreme Court decision.

[425] There was someone who sued for sexual harassment, and it was determined that in a creative space, the writer's room, people are going to step over the line.

[426] That's how we discover where the line is.

[427] That's where we find where the joke line is.

[428] I am largely in favor of that concept.

[429] I obviously think there's assholes who are sexually harassing people with that cover fire.

[430] But that's my analogy to these companies.

[431] Like once you're in the writer's room or once you get the real, like, oh, we don't ever get insider trading, but we have ways.

[432] I think it's implicit in my least fantasy of that world.

[433] But isn't it in your example in service to the product?

[434] Well, that's what I was going to say.

[435] it's not nefarious.

[436] Right.

[437] I feel like in my world, it was in service to keeping up a facade.

[438] Sure.

[439] But still down river is how the product is made.

[440] We predictably have these returns on investment.

[441] And we have a way of doing it that maybe the outside world's never going to agree with.

[442] And here's where you find out the truth.

[443] Yeah, but it doesn't have to be this weird, toxic, secretive.

[444] They make it that so that you feel like you're trapped.

[445] I mean, you're literally trapped.

[446] Your door is.

[447] locked.

[448] But I like what you're saying because it's almost like a secret recipe.

[449] Yeah.

[450] Yeah.

[451] Exactly.

[452] If you're cooking a great product and you're making the secret sauce, you don't want anyone else outside knowing what flavor you're putting in it.

[453] So when it's in service to the product and if you're talking about business and certainly as a writer, you want to see how far you could push the line for entertainment.

[454] In finance, you want to see how far you can push the line in terms of getting the best returns under the umbrella of being compliant with all the rules and That's what I was going to say.

[455] Even if we're assuming no laws are broken, there is so much nuance in pushing up to the micron before you've broken the law.

[456] That's right.

[457] And if it's in service to the product, which is inevitably, hopefully, the stockholders or people who invest in the products, I think that's one thing.

[458] Right.

[459] Then you have bad actors who leverage that silence where it's not in service to anything positive.

[460] Other than their own ego.

[461] And this is where it gets dicey.

[462] And this is what's exciting about this conversation is there has been a belief that that that, toxicity is actually part of the magic sauce.

[463] Let's just say that there's been all these social science studies on what happens to traders when they have wins.

[464] Their testosterone increases.

[465] Like you have a physiological response to taking risk and having one.

[466] So I can see some outsiders, some analyst firm going, well, we don't like how they behave when they're all teed up, but also we have to acknowledge the gains and the risk and all these things.

[467] Like if at the end of the day it's raising the bottom line, hush, hush, we're going to let that go because we think it might be part.

[468] I don't think it is.

[469] I can see the history of it.

[470] But then you're also looking at one segment of the population and how they perform under certain environments.

[471] Privileged people for the most part.

[472] I guess what I'm pointing out is in the many ways we've been slowly evolving, I think we're inching away from the old boys club.

[473] And within the old boys clubs, there's some probably erroneous assumptions about the value of walking around like a silverback and beating your chest.

[474] That's right.

[475] A problematic feeling that a lot of, especially corporate companies have, and just humans, is it has to be difficult to be worth it, successful.

[476] Again, it's with worthiness.

[477] It's like, well, I'm not really worthy of this, but it's really hard and I'm struggling and people are being mean to me. So I guess I've earned it.

[478] And that's like, honestly, abusive relationship type thinking.

[479] Well, it's interesting because I think it kind of goes back to having a scarcity mindset.

[480] This is so hard to get.

[481] And then therefore, I better hold on to it.

[482] Better hoard.

[483] I better, yes.

[484] The other example, to depersonalize it and not make it about finance, there's been a paradigm in coaching sports that has yielded lots of championships.

[485] And Pete Carroll is like, huh, I'm not going to do that.

[486] I'm going to recognize what each player needs.

[487] Some dudes need to be yelled at.

[488] Some dudes need this.

[489] But I'm going to have a different core, which is like, your number one job here is to know you represent a team at all times all these things are counter but until those techniques start yielding some positive results people are scared to deviate from the old way what was the coach in indiana would fucking chuck chairs across the end you know because that has produced results in the past people are wrongly married to those right and to your point you need time to try to test the new ways to approach it because maybe the result would be even better than the chair thrower yeah Yeah, Bobby Knight.

[490] Bobby Knight.

[491] I was going to say Gene Katie, but that was the Purdue coach around the same time.

[492] Was he wild, too?

[493] No, I just remember his comb over.

[494] He was one of those with the big comb over.

[495] You know, it's funny you think about that when we grew up.

[496] It's like, comb over was standard.

[497] You saw it on one and three men just had seven feet of hair on one side.

[498] I mean, legit.

[499] It must have gone down to his, like, mid -arm.

[500] You imagine them stepping out of the shower with just a waterfall of hair hitting the shoulder and the other side.

[501] Oh, God.

[502] Change, change, change.

[503] Okay, so I also think it's relevant to talk about because it all seems calculated.

[504] After this very scary first day, you're learning if you're one minute late, you're out, or you're going to have to get an apology letter, all that stuff.

[505] He mentions in this orientation that's harder to get where you're at right now than it is into Harvard.

[506] So you're just reminding the people, like, you have an opportunity that no one gets, and we're going to kill you, and that's how it's going to go.

[507] But then they flip the script at the end of it, and you guys all get invited out on the first night to a cocktail.

[508] thing.

[509] Yeah, so I always worry about being sensitive when I say this, but it's like a really abusive kind of relationship.

[510] Yes.

[511] It's the apology.

[512] It's the wine and dining.

[513] It's the berating.

[514] Exactly.

[515] The celebrating.

[516] The love bomb.

[517] That's how, that's how the bonus structure works.

[518] You beat, you beat, you beat, you beat.

[519] And then you get this crazy windfall.

[520] You're getting locked out.

[521] You're constantly anxious.

[522] And then they close Barney's for you and there's a private fashion show and you feel like a rock star when the husband hits you and then he's on his knees begging and apologizing and you feel this wash of the opposite extreme and then flies you to bermuda right so night number one you go to the crazy steakhouse unlimited drinks unlimited food i mean the seafood towers and for me it was right what well as an italian you guys love your seafood towers well and that you know i mean literally like my dad saturday nights were steak nights with the mashed potatoes and the corn the whole thing I'd been to like an Outback Steakhouse, but when this tower came in one of the women who, she only had three interviews to get her job.

[523] So, you know, she was more connected.

[524] She was like, oh, yeah, this cost about like $200.

[525] I was like, $200.

[526] Per seafood tower.

[527] And you're counting seafood tires.

[528] Wow, they're at $1 ,800 right now.

[529] What is going on here?

[530] They've already been trained for this.

[531] They were just well spoken in the world of affluence.

[532] They all had apartments in the city, most of them funded by their parents.

[533] So it was just a whole different world.

[534] And I felt like I needed an interpreter in some ways because I had no idea what was going on.

[535] Yeah, they're all talking about where they live and what cool restaurants.

[536] And then that gets to you and your fucking panic because you're in Jersey at mom and dads.

[537] And when I said Jersey, they're like, oh, Hoboken.

[538] Because Hoboken's a pretty cool area.

[539] And I'm like, no. They're like, what?

[540] You live with your parents.

[541] Yeah.

[542] People were ripping lines at the end of the night in the bathroom.

[543] People that are going to have to go to work at seven.

[544] I've heard these Wall Street stories.

[545] And it was just crazy to me because being such a rule follower, we had had drug tests that morning.

[546] We signed this thing and just like, what is this world?

[547] Yeah.

[548] Do you think those drug tests were ever ran?

[549] I don't know.

[550] How were they dealing with the drug policy?

[551] Everyone was getting gacked up.

[552] You test that first day.

[553] And then, off to the races.

[554] Yeah, there we go.

[555] So that's why I think they were parting it up that night because they were probably, you know.

[556] Had been clean for two weeks.

[557] Whatever you need to be to test fine.

[558] The not piss hot as we'd say.

[559] Stay tuned for more armchair expert If you dare What's up guys?

[560] It's your girl Kiki And my podcast is back with a new season And let me tell you it's too good And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest Okay, every episode I bring on a friend And have a real conversation And I don't mean just friends I mean the likes of Amy Polar Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox The list goes on So follow, watch and listen to baby, this is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcast.

[561] We've all been there.

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[569] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[570] Okay, so how long working there before you start experiencing some real vertical movement.

[571] And what is it that they latch on in you that they start betting on or they believe in?

[572] What was your kind of unique niche that you were great at there?

[573] I always think back to my grandma.

[574] She would always say to me, pick up enough pennies, you get a dollar.

[575] So I was definitely, for lack of better word, scrappy.

[576] Yeah.

[577] I always kind of saw opportunities and took them.

[578] And so I started making inroads and just some smaller clients.

[579] And I was the first one, and they used to call me Philo, which is an accounting term, first and last out.

[580] I was always the first one there, the last one to leave.

[581] Some of the kids I worked with would leave at two o 'clock on Fridays to catch their flight to Martha's Vineyard.

[582] I was at 10 o 'clock at night.

[583] And also, I covered a lot of small regional clients.

[584] So people from Iowa, Washington State, these little kind of smaller people.

[585] And I had an ability to connect with them.

[586] Yeah, right, because you hadn't vacation primarily or solely at Martha's Vineyard.

[587] Yeah.

[588] So you'd be a little.

[589] You'd be a little bit.

[590] You'd be a little.

[591] You'd been to Six Flags in New Jersey.

[592] I have been a six flag.

[593] Great adventure.

[594] Great adventure.

[595] And did you start becoming closer with your coworkers and speaking their language and finding that you were starting to fit in?

[596] They used to call me Sister Jamie because so many of the things I almost didn't get.

[597] And I remember I was working and there was a woman I work with a little more senior than me. She was off the desk a lot.

[598] And primarily we went out with clients for dinners.

[599] I mean, once in a while a lunch.

[600] And I kept taking those.

[601] like while you were out pink slips.

[602] And I said, oh, I hope so -and -so's okay.

[603] I was like, oh, no, no, she's out banging this guy at the hotel.

[604] Oh, great.

[605] And I was like, what?

[606] And I got so red.

[607] And they were like, oh, we're going to call you sister Jamie.

[608] And so there were definitely people here and there that I connected with some women that I'm still friends to this day.

[609] But I felt very much like one of these things is not like the other member.

[610] Yeah.

[611] Well, again, I'd imagine you'd fall quickly into this pattern if you work there, which is I'm taking on all this stress.

[612] So the one thing that the Jordaesh line worker didn't have is an abundance of stress that kept them up probably.

[613] They're not sitting at home worrying how many units per minute are going to be manufactured.

[614] Right.

[615] I mean, they're probably stressed about making ends meet, of course, but yes.

[616] But the labor of that job is the amount of stress you're taking on.

[617] On the line, as long as you're not falling behind, you don't need to be absolutely exceptional to stay and or move up.

[618] And they make it very clear there that the bar gets higher every.

[619] single day.

[620] So if you're not outperforming where you were yesterday, this is just one big firm, but, you know, they took a page out of Jack Welch's playbook at Goldman.

[621] Every year, bottom 10 % go.

[622] Even if it's record earnings every year, the bottom 10 % go, it's just a call because we want to keep people on their toes.

[623] I think there's a new book about the cult of Jack Welsh.

[624] Do you know David Gellis.

[625] Oh, okay, yeah.

[626] He was the GE CEO.

[627] Yeah.

[628] I'm actually reading the book.

[629] It's so fascinating to see the parallels because he was just worshipped.

[630] He's the Henry Ford of like management or something.

[631] Yeah, and he talks about how he approached business, but they took a page out of his playbook every year 10 % go.

[632] So you're in that constant state of paranoia.

[633] In fact, one of the partners, my first week at work said, welcome to Goldman Sachs, home of the most paranoid and insecure people.

[634] Because that's what it takes to put up with the environment.

[635] You have to start devaluing yourself to be able to put up with it.

[636] because if you feel confident and good, you'd be like, I'm not...

[637] Well, if you're just like, I don't deserve this, I can do better, I can feel better.

[638] It's not attracting those types of people.

[639] Well, that's what's weird is those are mutually exclusive.

[640] You can either earn a lot or you can feel better, but you're probably not going to be able to earn a lot and feel great.

[641] Right.

[642] I always feel like I was so ripe for their picking because I always kind of felt less than because of my physical issues and felt obligated.

[643] I was just feeling like I had to perform for my family of origin and then the generations before that.

[644] Yeah.

[645] And maybe you're representing women.

[646] A big theme for me is I always felt like I needed to prove people wrong because I always felt growing up when I had my back surgery like, listen, you may never walk again.

[647] And then you may be physical, but you're never going to be an athlete who was always like, I just wanted to break out of boxes.

[648] So I feel like I was right for their picking because you're right.

[649] Looking back now, I can't believe.

[650] what I tolerated and what I normalized.

[651] Back to the high stress environment that it is, all people are at the verge of burning out at all times.

[652] And so anything that can be a sanctuary away from this neurosis is going to be embraced.

[653] So when you get off the clock, the only way to not be absolutely obsessed with what's going to happen in the off hours and everything else, you got to get annihilated.

[654] You got to get fucked up.

[655] You've got to switch gears.

[656] I have to imagine rates of addiction are much higher in that environment.

[657] And then, yes, the sexual release.

[658] oh, I can go take my lunch break and I can feel powerful and in control and not stressed out for an hour.

[659] This is a tool to achieve that freedom.

[660] I'm going to take it.

[661] Yeah.

[662] I always joke that stop and frisk should be in Tribeca.

[663] Right.

[664] For drugs, probably.

[665] Yeah, for drugs.

[666] Because everyone had a poison.

[667] You know, whether it was alcohol, whether it was affairs, whether it was drugs.

[668] I'm not going to say everyone, but if it could happen to me, I know what happened to a lot of people.

[669] Did it start pre or post you being a manager?

[670] The unraveling?

[671] Yeah.

[672] Was it just slow and precipitous?

[673] It was slow or precipitous?

[674] I mean, definitely September 11th was hard.

[675] You've been there for three years at that point?

[676] 98.

[677] Yeah, three years.

[678] And so that's when I started my use of Xanax just to kind of get through the days.

[679] Initially prescribed by a psychiatrist or something.

[680] Yeah, I was just in a constant state of anxiety.

[681] As was most people, many people didn't even come back after that.

[682] The proximity to the World Trade Center was very close.

[683] Yeah, we were close.

[684] Looking back at that moment, I remember just thinking maybe there's a plane for every one of these buildings.

[685] We were on the 48th floor.

[686] Yeah, if they're trying to cripple commerce, if that's the goal.

[687] Yeah.

[688] And it was so hard coming back.

[689] And one of the mantras you always hear is you can only leave Goldman once.

[690] And so my mentor sent to me, listen, I'm not saying you should.

[691] shouldn't leave, but you can only do it once, so really make sure it's what you want.

[692] I carried a gas mask in my bag for years.

[693] So there's some PTSD from the whole of car.

[694] For sure.

[695] So many of us had it.

[696] It wasn't just me. Now I'm an ex -addict, so of course I'm going to geek out most on this.

[697] The original use of the Xanax is what in the evening or all day?

[698] Where does it start?

[699] Where does it end?

[700] So I was prescribed it right after September 11th.

[701] The second I knew I was pregnant, nothing.

[702] But Yeah, for years.

[703] Some days all day long.

[704] If it was really stressful, especially toward the end after I had kind of whistleblown on that guy.

[705] Well, tell us about that.

[706] You end up taking the position of managing director.

[707] What year is that?

[708] 2012.

[709] Okay, so 14 years.

[710] 14 years.

[711] Okay, so you get that job.

[712] Up until then, were men pissed at you yet that you were climbing?

[713] Well, men were pissed at me once I started becoming a manager.

[714] So that was earlier.

[715] So to be clear, it's funny.

[716] Managing director as a title, it doesn't necessarily indicate any different of a role.

[717] You can be a manager as a vice president.

[718] You could be a manager as a managing director.

[719] Okay.

[720] So I first got promoted in 2005.

[721] So that's when it was like, oh, wait, Jamie's doing what?

[722] I'm Trent from Wharton.

[723] Yeah.

[724] Let me break your hand.

[725] There was a lot of anger from the guys who felt I got promoted because I was a woman.

[726] There was a lot of that.

[727] Oh, right.

[728] And then.

[729] And then, implying that you were only there to fulfill some quota.

[730] When I found out, I was a woman.

[731] I was a lot of.

[732] I felt.

[733] I was a woman.

[734] I was a lot of I was becoming a manager, I was told about it before my team knew.

[735] So they're like, listen, this is going to happen the next week.

[736] I want you to go to some events so you can get a little bit of a lay of belang because my business was changing a bit.

[737] So one of the guys who was going to be working for me hit on me was pretty aggressive.

[738] And then when he found out the next day, that not only did I turn him down, turn him down, but now he was working for me. And he was also 10 years older than me. Women are scared of getting killed and men are scared of getting embarrassed.

[739] Yeah.

[740] And that kind of started it.

[741] I replaced somebody.

[742] And what ended up happening was I started getting calls from this guy's wife because she felt that he was having an affair with a client.

[743] I had heard about it, but I didn't have any proof.

[744] I had just become a manager.

[745] Also, it's par for the course.

[746] Right.

[747] You know, it's like, yeah.

[748] So it's like, whatever.

[749] I wasn't your responsibility.

[750] It's not your responsibility.

[751] But she kept calling.

[752] And she had little kids.

[753] She had just had a pregnancy loss.

[754] I had just had a pregnancy loss.

[755] I was like, oh, this is breaking my heart.

[756] I finally raised it.

[757] Fielding these calls is becoming disruptive.

[758] You have the power at this point to separate him from the client.

[759] Correct.

[760] To be clear, you're not supposed to be having an affair with your clients.

[761] You could have an affair with your hairstylist.

[762] Sure.

[763] But there's a conflict of interest.

[764] Yeah.

[765] Especially if it's someone you are working directly with, which was.

[766] the case.

[767] So I reached out to my boss and, you know, I joke that this guy had something better than a 4 .0 from Harvard.

[768] He was a scratch golfer.

[769] Yeah, yeah, that'll get you everywhere.

[770] So he knew all the pros at all the places, got them tea times anywhere.

[771] And my boss was like, listen, I'm not going to report it.

[772] I'm not going to do anything about it.

[773] Just get them off the account.

[774] So I'm like, all right.

[775] That'll solve the problem.

[776] I mean, I thought it was kind of crummy because it should be happening, but it was going to make it easier.

[777] And my business, You're being pragmatic.

[778] Exactly.

[779] So I pulled him aside and he lost it.

[780] And he pinned me against a wall.

[781] It was like out of a movie.

[782] It was crazy.

[783] He grabbed you by the chin.

[784] And what I tried to do was I tried to be so fair about it.

[785] So instead of just being like, I'm moving just these two, I mixed up everybody.

[786] Oh, my God.

[787] You bent over back.

[788] To protect his feelings.

[789] Because I didn't want to make it seem like because I didn't want to even talk about the affair.

[790] Right.

[791] She was like, hey, listen, I want to just mix it up.

[792] and just lost his stuff on me. Well, here goes his built -in excuse for why he's with this woman all the time.

[793] Yeah.

[794] Okay, so right now, this is a really complex moment.

[795] It's at the end of the day.

[796] Yeah.

[797] No one's around.

[798] You always send bad messages at the end of the day.

[799] Oh.

[800] That's another, I don't know if that's a Jack Welsh thing.

[801] That's something I picked up on.

[802] I don't know if they picked that up from Jack Welsh.

[803] But what makes it so complex is if I'm a guy in that situation, I have a lot of options.

[804] I fight back.

[805] I don't fight back, but I go above him and tell somebody.

[806] If I go and tell somebody, I'm not risking that the stereotype about me is true, that I'm just weak and can't handle shit.

[807] The survivalist urge to be one of the boys must have been complicating the experience, knowing, well, fuck, if I go now and tell them how terrified I am, I'm reinforcing this idea that I'm not tough enough to be here.

[808] Any of that happening?

[809] A hundred percent.

[810] Yeah.

[811] And when I was promoted, because this guy had gone from being the manager to working for me, I was asked, like, you can handle him, right?

[812] You can handle this, right?

[813] Right.

[814] And this was my first shot.

[815] This was my first tap on the shoulder that I was a manager, which meant that maybe I'd be a managing director.

[816] And I said I'd handle it.

[817] Well, what else were you going to say?

[818] You wouldn't have been given the opportunity.

[819] I really didn't think that handling it meant this kind of stuff.

[820] A fist of cuffs with an employee.

[821] But I did say something.

[822] My husband was irate.

[823] He's like, you got it.

[824] You got to say something.

[825] And it was like, look, you can complain.

[826] There are channels for this, but I'm not getting rid of him.

[827] So imagine how hard it's going to be for you to keep on working as his boss.

[828] With this guy after you say something.

[829] Yes.

[830] Oh, he trapped.

[831] You're just trapped.

[832] Oh, the point being, if you go to HR, which would be the appropriate channel, instead of keeping it within our little group, you're now changing the whole direction of everything.

[833] Well, they're saying nothing's going to change regardless.

[834] He's not going to fire him.

[835] Right.

[836] That's off the table.

[837] So now he's just going to.

[838] You're just making it double awkward that you quote rat it on him.

[839] That's right.

[840] Yes.

[841] I'm saying this without any sympathy towards him.

[842] But from the outside, this dude's life is in a fucking nose dive.

[843] He's having an affair.

[844] He's assaulting his boss at work.

[845] I mean, this guy is all fucked up.

[846] And also too, kind of looking back now, what was he on?

[847] He might be suffering.

[848] He might have been on something.

[849] Sure.

[850] Who knows?

[851] If his wife.

[852] calling you, the wife's bringing it up to him, and he doesn't want to be at home.

[853] Now work is the only place he can find comfort.

[854] And now he's at work.

[855] And now you're his boss, which wasn't supposed to happen.

[856] And now you're now bringing this thing up that this was my safe place.

[857] So now this thing's gone.

[858] Again, I'm not saying any of this with compassion.

[859] Just those are the ingredients in this crazy situation.

[860] Now that I'm looking back, I see things in such different ways.

[861] I would argue, and this is probably too dramatic to say, but.

[862] You see behavior in times of war from people you just don't see when they return stateside.

[863] There's all these examples.

[864] The rate of opiate addiction for vets while they were in country in Vietnam is staggering, 30 % or something.

[865] They come home and only like 4 % remain addicts.

[866] So what you see is, oh, this environment really can change who people are.

[867] Especially because it changed me. Yeah.

[868] You had told me that I would have cheated on my husband.

[869] I was a Girl Scout.

[870] Like, no. I was just a really good person.

[871] Right.

[872] You're like, it's your identity that you're a good person.

[873] You make good decisions.

[874] Gosh, like, it's just so important to me to be a good person over anything else.

[875] So in order of what we would call bottom lines in certain programs, like in your mind, I'm not a drug addict.

[876] I would never cheat on my husband.

[877] Yeah.

[878] I will be present for my kids' lives.

[879] Whatever these cornerstones of your identity were, in what order do you start stepping over them?

[880] The reliance on the drug.

[881] drugs came first.

[882] I feel like my infidelity was another escape.

[883] Yes.

[884] It was another coping mechanism.

[885] It just happened to be this person.

[886] It could have been something else.

[887] I do also think my contribution as a misogynist, you know, like I look back and I'm like, you know what?

[888] I'm part of someone's Me Too story.

[889] You know?

[890] And that I think was probably in between.

[891] So I really think it was the Xanax first to just cope.

[892] And then it was me getting promoted and then me having kids.

[893] kids.

[894] And I was the poster child for the Goldman Sachs working mother.

[895] And so these women would come to me for advice, how do you do it?

[896] You have two girls.

[897] You have a husband.

[898] How are you making it happen?

[899] And so I relished in that.

[900] It was being a social worker.

[901] Well, I love that irony is you're not making it happen.

[902] But you're going to tell them how to make it happen.

[903] Well, I joke and I say that I felt like the smiling flight attendant who said everyone was fine while the pilot was no dive in the plane.

[904] Yes.

[905] Well, that's a great analogy.

[906] Yes.

[907] Yes.

[908] Yes.

[909] Everything's great.

[910] Because I think part of me wanted to believe what I told them.

[911] I wanted to believe what I told them.

[912] Well, if you were to acknowledge that you couldn't, something then has to go.

[913] Either your definition of who you are as a mom, who you are as a wife, or your role or a successful woman.

[914] One of those things is going to have to go away if you acknowledge it.

[915] So you must perpetuate the lie.

[916] It's what an addict does as I would do.

[917] It's like, no, I'm still functional.

[918] I'm getting great grades in school.

[919] The kids are great.

[920] My husband's great.

[921] The marriage is great.

[922] We have a nice house.

[923] Everything's great.

[924] So I feel like the drugs kind of perpetuated my kids up the ante.

[925] Then managing director really fueled my perpetuating the bad environment.

[926] So for example, when one of my subordinates who I loved, she was awesome.

[927] She was having a really hard time.

[928] Guys who also berated me were berating her.

[929] She finally left.

[930] I never knew for sure, but I suspect she sued because someone sued.

[931] And my partner said, outside counsel is going to call you.

[932] They want to hear.

[933] what your experience is as a working woman in my group.

[934] And I trust you're not going to say anything.

[935] I'm going to promote you this year.

[936] What's negative about that?

[937] Now at this point, I got two kids at home.

[938] Imagine you're biting off more in life as we do too.

[939] Now you're probably beholden to a mortgage that you wouldn't otherwise be.

[940] That's right.

[941] Car payments.

[942] You become trapped by what you take on in these moments as well.

[943] And so going back to I want to prove people wrong, I want to prove Taylor Hughes from Warren that I could be an MD.

[944] yes yes I could do it too because you know they had said to me you'll never be able to make it here you don't know anything you haven't been managing a portfolio since you were 12 like I have right you know yeah yeah and then I hate that guy and as the kids got older then responsibilities changed at home and tensions were brewing and then in walks this guy and you're too young for this you'll appreciate it I always say it was my Calgon take me away moment yeah yeah yeah you never see those commercials?

[945] Oh, Monica.

[946] They were great.

[947] I wrote it in my book proposal and then I had to take it out because I was dating myself by saying come and taking you away.

[948] There was these great commercials and there would be a woman and we don't know what the stresses of her day were.

[949] Was it family?

[950] Was it work?

[951] All we know is that she would escape to that big sunken in tub and she'd get in there and Calgon would take her away and she'd have a bubble bath and it was romantic.

[952] It was almost like she's having a fair with her bathtub in those commercials.

[953] Yeah.

[954] Oh.

[955] She's She seemed, she seemed orgasmic.

[956] Well, what we know is she was using the sprayer to reach climax.

[957] But it wasn't explicitly stated, but it was all right there.

[958] Good for her.

[959] Yeah, I wish I could remember the theme song.

[960] So, yeah, so when this guy was like, hey, listen, let me get you a glass and wine.

[961] Like, you're working so hard.

[962] You're so amazing.

[963] Is he at work?

[964] Sorry.

[965] Yeah, I worked for him.

[966] Okay.

[967] I'm imagining, you know you're disappointing the people in your family at this point, that you're not giving them as much of you as they would want.

[968] And someone presents you with love without any of the requirements normally involved in a relationship.

[969] It's like, this is going to be nurturing and affection without any responsibility on your end.

[970] That's a very appealing proposition.

[971] Some weeks I'd hardly see the girls during the week because I had a long commute and then I would go out with clients.

[972] I'd get home at midnight and get up at 4 .30 and do it again.

[973] I'll never forget one night I came home early and the girls wouldn't go.

[974] go to me. And I'll never forget my one daughter, she wiped my kiss off her cheek.

[975] Listen, they were like two.

[976] Yeah, but still.

[977] They do that shit when you're around every day.

[978] But you definitely are assuming the worst.

[979] And I'm just like, oh my God, I'm doing all this for what?

[980] For what?

[981] Yeah.

[982] And then I would imagine with that deficit of your poor identity markers, now the need to achieve gets even higher because it's the only thing bolstering the whole story is Now I need even more the money and the status because that's all I've now got.

[983] That's right.

[984] And it's amazing because I didn't come from materialistic people, but I couldn't walk away from it because it was the only thing I felt that I was contributing in the world.

[985] Yeah.

[986] That's your one sole value proposition to people around you.

[987] And Goldman was so good to make me feel that I was nothing without them.

[988] I really thought I would never make a penny again.

[989] And I would see it because they would target people.

[990] There was this one guy.

[991] The partner just had an issue with him because he would leave every day at 4 o 'clock because he went through a divorce with his kids.

[992] He wanted to see his kids.

[993] What a fucking wimp.

[994] And my partner was like, you got to tell him.

[995] And so I told him.

[996] And I was like, listen, don't shoot the messenger.

[997] I'm just letting you know.

[998] And he's like, I don't give a crap.

[999] I'm doing what I want.

[1000] And his bonus got slashed.

[1001] He blamed me. I tried to stand up for him.

[1002] But I didn't stand up that much because my boss was calculating my bonus too.

[1003] So, you know, he stayed.

[1004] And so my partner was like, well, that's what he's worth.

[1005] Where's he going to go?

[1006] He's nothing without Goldman Sachs.

[1007] So not only was I told that, but I also witnessed that being told to other people.

[1008] So I was afraid to leave.

[1009] So I would make up stuff I needed to save for.

[1010] I joked, I had this spreadsheet called the spreadsheet of freedom that my husband and I worked on.

[1011] It was my budget spreadsheet.

[1012] And I would almost make up stuff because it was like I would never make money ever again.

[1013] You're breaking up with the Param King.

[1014] And you know what?

[1015] The breakups are always messy.

[1016] Bloomberg posts an article supposedly, I mean, you'll fact check me on this, but two guys left.

[1017] They were doing really well at the firm, and now the firm is saying they weren't doing well.

[1018] You know what I mean?

[1019] So it's like, oh, you're leaving the family?

[1020] You were a piece of crap anyway.

[1021] We don't want you.

[1022] Yeah, yeah.

[1023] Who broke up with who?

[1024] Right.

[1025] So it's always like a messy, messy divorce.

[1026] So what are the consequences?

[1027] How do they stack up enough that you start fantasizing about leaving?

[1028] What ended up happening was I finally got to my moment where the boss I had been with had left and I got a new guy.

[1029] We were out with clients and he was really drunk, really out of control, and he used a racial epithet on one of the employees.

[1030] So now we're in a public space with my colleagues, with clients, with the public.

[1031] And you know, it's funny, going back to kind of abusive environments, I always kind of felt.

[1032] like we were in this bubble the secret society and the secret society and like all this crazy stuff was happening but we kept it in the family yeah and now it was like our nasty knickers were hanging up for everyone to see and that moment for me was like I can't be a part of this anymore and so I called HR it's technically not called HR it's called employee relations ER by the way that's apropos right you're only calling for like emergency exactly yeah the whole thing is if you see something, say something.

[1033] Our reputation is paramount.

[1034] And I talked to someone I knew.

[1035] I was promised anonymity.

[1036] I had known him.

[1037] I had worked with him before on sensitive issues around when we would let people go.

[1038] And he's like, I got you.

[1039] Don't worry about it.

[1040] So I was like, good.

[1041] I'm getting a little bit of myself back.

[1042] At this point, I had reconciled with my husband.

[1043] So I was kind of on the road to getting back to who I was.

[1044] And the next day, I joke that it was like a scene from the godfather.

[1045] My partner calls me in the office.

[1046] I'm an idiot.

[1047] I'm thinking it's to go over my latest client report he's like close the door he's like ploy relations called said you said something bad about just so you know we solve problems within the family there's so many parallels to your story one is like it's also the dirty cop paradigm it's like you got internal affairs which is in this case er and then you've got your squad and you're supposed to have each other's backs the other police parallel i would say is your own admitted misogynistic ways while there i think of black cops that enter this kind of racist system but now they're on an in tribe that has to look at all the guys in the neighborhood with one light and they end up doing it themselves even though they two are black like the power of that in group that's right is so strong that you will betray your own previous quote group it's wild it's a powerful culture society our group in group I think so many of us think that our identity and our morals and our ethics are poured in concrete but there's They're so malleable by who we're around.

[1048] So malleable and so motivated by money.

[1049] And again, even if you're not buying lupitons or expensive bags.

[1050] Yeah, AMGs and Ferraris.

[1051] Oh, by the way, you had me at the Honda Odyssey race.

[1052] Oh, okay.

[1053] I'm not a car person.

[1054] But you love your Odyssey.

[1055] Oh, I love my Odyssey.

[1056] Yeah, that's a great machine.

[1057] Over 200 ,000 miles, my friend.

[1058] That's nothing.

[1059] You've just broken it in.

[1060] It's so funny.

[1061] It's so funny because I was so upset because I was driving it.

[1062] I'm like, I got to get a picture when it hits 200.

[1063] And I totally missed the memo.

[1064] And my husband, I was like, oh, my God, we missed it.

[1065] And then he's like, don't worry, we'll get it at 300.

[1066] Yeah, exactly.

[1067] That's right.

[1068] I want to make one distinction about in -group, out -group, though, because it's in our bones to have these tribes, basically.

[1069] But when they're reinforced, like they are in a police system, like, like they are here when they're just shoved down your throat and reinforced and reinforce.

[1070] It's impossible to see outside of it.

[1071] It's not just like, oh, these are my people.

[1072] They're telling you every day.

[1073] These are your people.

[1074] They're instilling fear that if you don't say these are your people, you're out.

[1075] There's a lot more to it, I think, than just our innate biology.

[1076] I always joke that Goldman put the cult in culture.

[1077] Because in a lot of ways, it's that cult mentality.

[1078] The fact that this guy who choked you, you might be able to say, well, he's just a violent misogynist.

[1079] But no, it's when you go to your boss and then they say, don't contact HR.

[1080] That's where now you expose that the system itself might be contaminated.

[1081] A lot of the things I did wrong was either by action or just by silence.

[1082] Yes, right.

[1083] You're the watching officer.

[1084] That's right.

[1085] In some ways, I wasn't, some ways I outright lied when they called me. But in other ways, there were women who complained and I didn't get involved.

[1086] I didn't speak up.

[1087] And I'm sure in your own motivation of the people under you, you were employing all the tactics that had worked on you.

[1088] Years later, I was in charge of the intern class.

[1089] So the guy who locked the door.

[1090] Yeah.

[1091] I locked the door.

[1092] Sure, sure, sure.

[1093] I'd make people cry.

[1094] Mm -hmm.

[1095] Yeah.

[1096] And there was a sick part of me that felt like I was on the right side.

[1097] I had made it.

[1098] Did I see metaphor?

[1099] But it's the slaves who worked in the field versus the slaves who worked in the house, how there became a hierarchy within the oppressed.

[1100] That's right.

[1101] I was the bullied kid who became the bully.

[1102] Once I was out of it, things started to really become clear to me. Yeah.

[1103] It's like leaving a cult.

[1104] I mean, it really is.

[1105] When you talk about the moment, your bonus is handed out in January, and you're waiting for it to load to find out.

[1106] And then you find out, and your husband's there with you.

[1107] And then you say, oh, my God, look at it.

[1108] Okay.

[1109] Your husband immediately goes, okay, so now you're out, right?

[1110] that moment to me is so similar to deciding to get sober because you have wreckage on one hand you've recognized you have wreckage you have a spreadsheet of your fantasy departure which i'm sure involves all the reasons you would need to do it and then you have the drug you have the money and what's crazy is be like me having quit cocaine on the day the kilo showed up in my house that's right yeah but in your case this is also the thing that's going to allow me to leave Right.

[1111] Money, it's like so much about how we view ourselves, how we view safety, how we view our value, what we're worth.

[1112] It's really interesting.

[1113] How bad was the Xanax, two things about Xanax and just benzodiazepine in general is it's among the very hardest things to quit and to detox from because it drastically changes the chemistry of your brain.

[1114] And it takes months and months and sometimes years.

[1115] I don't know if people realize that as they're ratcheting up a benzodia addiction.

[1116] So how bad did it get and did you have a bad detox and how did you confront that?

[1117] Are you currently popped up on a dozen Zanis?

[1118] No, not anymore.

[1119] Really, for me, it was the pregnancies.

[1120] Oh, okay.

[1121] That did it.

[1122] I was able to just white knuckle it through those things.

[1123] And then with my last child, I was able to breastfeed her.

[1124] I never did that with the others.

[1125] That kind of lasted me through because I left.

[1126] She was like seven months old and I was still nursing.

[1127] so I basically stopped.

[1128] I remember being so sick, nauseous, dizzy.

[1129] It's an equilibrium thing.

[1130] Yeah.

[1131] Like I just remember almost feeling like spins.

[1132] And it's hard to stay the course because you must in those moments be thinking, well, I permanently did this to my brain.

[1133] It's been months.

[1134] It's been whatever it's been.

[1135] I guess I don't have an option but to be on this because I can't really function this way.

[1136] Well, then I was just so afraid because of my miscarriages that I had.

[1137] I worried enough that it had been on my bloodstream so long because for my last child, I didn't find out I was pregnant for a while.

[1138] I was like so sick over, could that have hurt her?

[1139] Of course.

[1140] And I mean, she seems like.

[1141] She's doing great.

[1142] She's seven now.

[1143] But I mean, that's really what got me to be like, no. The other thing that's just a spot on parallel is the fact that right before quitting, you're admitting I missed first steps.

[1144] I missed first words.

[1145] I could Kind of have a shot still to repair and be present or young enough.

[1146] I can't tell you how many dudes I've watched get sober where it's like first owning, I missed all that.

[1147] Yeah.

[1148] And then two, I got to make it up and I got to really be present.

[1149] And quitting this thing is going to allow me to do that.

[1150] And that's exactly right, because I really don't feel I was ever present with them.

[1151] I'll never forget.

[1152] I used to have to sneak out of the office to go to things, meaning I think they thought I was present.

[1153] I was physically there.

[1154] I was literally dialed into conference calls, like on mute, hardly paying attention.

[1155] Right.

[1156] Because I was always so anxious.

[1157] And I will say it's interesting, though, because I think there's a function of Xanax.

[1158] I don't know the pharmacological thing about it.

[1159] Despite having a sibling, that's a pharmacist.

[1160] She's a pharmacist.

[1161] I should ask her.

[1162] But I definitely think there's an element of the more stressed you are, the less you feel it.

[1163] I was on Xanax all day long.

[1164] I did not feel calm.

[1165] Yeah.

[1166] I barely felt calm.

[1167] I felt functioning.

[1168] If I took a Xanax now, I'd be like probably dueling on the couch.

[1169] Yes, yes, yes.

[1170] This is the diminished returns of opiates, benzos, cocaine.

[1171] That's the only great thing about alcohol is you can at any point still get fall down drunk.

[1172] But you didn't.

[1173] But I could have, right?

[1174] Like if I had chose to have two fifths of Jack Daniels instead of one, I could have been inebriated.

[1175] But you reach a point with Xanax and opiates that you're just doing a lot to get back to status quo when you started.

[1176] When I was at the office, I would be shaking without it, shaking from anxiety and stress.

[1177] I just needed that to be functioning.

[1178] Right.

[1179] Back to zero.

[1180] Right.

[1181] Oh, it gives me heart palpitations, remembering when you know you need it to be.

[1182] And by the way, towards the end of any addiction, you're not even getting to zero.

[1183] You're now doing a ton of stuff to get to negative 5 % of what you would be without anything.

[1184] Right.

[1185] Yeah.

[1186] So it's so nice to live in a world where I don't need that anymore.

[1187] Right.

[1188] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[1189] Okay, so you left in 2016.

[1190] I did.

[1191] And well, I have one weird question for you, and this is a gross one.

[1192] I'm not even asking you to tell me. I'm more curious about the complex nature of the topic, which is when you say, Say the bonus came in, you don't tell us how much it was.

[1193] You tell us that in multiples of what your house cleaner made, what your children's teacher made, and what your doctor made.

[1194] Why not tell us what the bonus was?

[1195] I do earlier in the book.

[1196] Oh, okay.

[1197] There is a point where I talk about right after the assault, I got my bonus.

[1198] Uh -huh.

[1199] Your hush money?

[1200] My hush money.

[1201] Prior to that, I was making maybe 300, 400 a year.

[1202] And I got paid a million dollars.

[1203] Yeah, that's a significant.

[1204] And that guy made 9 -9 -99 -999.

[1205] Oh, wow.

[1206] I want a mental fuck.

[1207] Oh, my God.

[1208] Oh, wow.

[1209] So it wasn't so much that I earned it.

[1210] It was I had to make more than him.

[1211] So bonuses are in the millions.

[1212] I mean, the interesting thing that a lot of people don't appreciate on Wall Street is what a large percentage of your total compensation is in your bonus.

[1213] Right.

[1214] So it could be upwards of 75%.

[1215] You could have a $200 ,000 base.

[1216] and have your total comp be 1 .2.

[1217] Whoa, that is crazy.

[1218] So that's really why those golden handcuffs, and then on top of it, again, depending on the firm or the structure, the bonus has a cash component, a securities component where they give you stock.

[1219] Then the stock has vesting.

[1220] Meaning you've got to stick around for it to.

[1221] So maybe a third vest immediately, a third vest in a year, a third vest in two years.

[1222] Right.

[1223] So yes, it's further leverage against you.

[1224] Yes, yes, yes.

[1225] So what is the range at that company for people to make?

[1226] Oh, my gosh.

[1227] I mean, some people make 10, 20, 30.

[1228] It also depends on your book of business.

[1229] Some people you get just based on your trading P &L.

[1230] If you're a salesperson, you get sales credits.

[1231] So how much of what you sold translated into it.

[1232] So imagine when you take the managerial route, you're kind of saying goodbye to maybe the huge eat what you kill portion of the business.

[1233] So my business was a little different.

[1234] It wasn't that traditional like sales and trading.

[1235] It was a little more of like an annuity.

[1236] We kind of made money every night on our business.

[1237] our book of business.

[1238] And so it was sliced and diced, which in some ways got a little bit interesting because if you were in a straight trading business, it's like, this is your book.

[1239] You get X percent of the total value, and that's it.

[1240] With us, a big question was attribution.

[1241] So, okay, we made all this money.

[1242] What is your value versus your value, which is my value.

[1243] And so if you know the guy in the office, you know, one of the things I noticed was the year I got that huge bump up that kind of got me into that million dollar realm.

[1244] And above, I had to give my new team their bonuses.

[1245] I had to tell them.

[1246] And it was interesting because what I observed was, here I was this up -and -comer who got promoted to manage people.

[1247] And yet I was making hundreds and thousands less than some of the other guys who were considered middle -of -the -row performers.

[1248] If they had technically been a better performer than I was, they would have been the manager.

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] So there's clearly a gender.

[1251] I saw it.

[1252] They're currently Goldman's ensnared in the largest civil lawsuit about gender in the industry right right now started 12 years ago oh my wow oh wow it started in 2010 and i believe before it became that i think it was actually opened prior to that by one individual even before 2010 okay i got to ask this because i imagine i might even be thinking about this listening to this what would you say to someone's like hey tough shit this is how it works for people to make 15 30 million dollars yeah they don't have family lives they're miserable they get shit on they're motivated in a very calculated way.

[1253] That's how they perform.

[1254] Pick another business.

[1255] Why you got to try to take down that business.

[1256] I think I mentioned when I first started it was minds wide open.

[1257] My thing is it should be eyes wide open.

[1258] Okay, I say to that person, but then make sure that the glass offices are really saying what's going on.

[1259] Don't say it's one of the best hundred places for women to work.

[1260] It's all the smoke and mirror campaign.

[1261] Be more honest about it.

[1262] Be more honest about it then.

[1263] This is hell.

[1264] You'll hate it, but you'll be rich at the end of it.

[1265] Because when they're marketing it and when they're going out to college campuses and certainly when I was towing the party line and waving the Goldman flag all across the country at colleges, we were told to say all the right things.

[1266] These are our goals and we want work life, you know, and we have state -of -art lactation rooms that are empty.

[1267] We have generous maternity leaves that you dial into every day.

[1268] So my whole point is it's a bad game of telephone that I play with my kids around the dinner table where you say one thing and it ends up in my family at being about farts.

[1269] Because my son's always a second to last person.

[1270] It always becomes about farts.

[1271] Good for him.

[1272] So let's just be open and honest about it.

[1273] Don't say that we care about all these things when you clearly don't.

[1274] Right.

[1275] I don't even know it would have an impact on them financially, to be honest, because I can't imagine an investor gives a fuck what happens there, truly.

[1276] I think they're looking for some percentage return they think is what they want.

[1277] And they're not really concerned with how they get it, sadly.

[1278] Right.

[1279] Well, I respect that.

[1280] I don't think they pay a price to be transparent, to be honest.

[1281] I don't know.

[1282] I don't think they'll get the best people or they'll get some people, but they won't get everyone.

[1283] I mean, I would not work there.

[1284] Hearing that, hearing that story, you're making a deal with the devil.

[1285] We talk about it on this show all the time.

[1286] Money is not worth that.

[1287] It's not worth your happiness, your well -being, your health.

[1288] It, like every drug, has completely diminished returns.

[1289] If you go from $20 ,000 a year to $60 ,000, it is damn impactful.

[1290] And the drug works.

[1291] If you go from 60 to 120, it works a little less, but still significant.

[1292] You're going to own a house, you know, and then you go to 200.

[1293] Well, guess what?

[1294] You guys might take vacations.

[1295] But then, and this is well documented by a bunch of social scientists, it starts dissipating.

[1296] The amount of money going up is not resulting in the same amount of ease in your life.

[1297] At a certain threshold, it's now complicating your life.

[1298] I mean, I saw that firsthand.

[1299] And I always joked, you know, the more money people made, the poor they were in spirit.

[1300] It's important to just think about how large, powerful organizations can change people.

[1301] And it's interesting with what a naysayer would say that I would say, okay, well, then what kind of personalities are you going to get working there?

[1302] Are you going to get the silverbacks beating their chest?

[1303] What's the iteration of that in terms of who has the wealth?

[1304] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1305] The reason to bring it up is I want the best for people.

[1306] I want the best for organizations.

[1307] I want the best for the country.

[1308] And also, I'm a realist.

[1309] So, like, Wall Street is gross to me, okay?

[1310] 100%.

[1311] But Wall Street's now a part of, I don't know what it is, 33 % of our GDP.

[1312] Like, it is their biggest industry.

[1313] So the notion that you can Bertie Sanders in, like, let's dismantle Wall Street, you're talking about living in a country that is vastly different than when we're in.

[1314] You're talking about a third of our wealth disappearing.

[1315] So, okay, I don't like it.

[1316] And yet, perhaps we need it.

[1317] Now it's who wants to go do that?

[1318] I don't want to.

[1319] I don't want to sell my entire.

[1320] higher existence on planet Earth to make the money.

[1321] So some bizarre way, I'm a tiny bit grateful that there's these lunatics out there that want to do that because we need it for the country.

[1322] It's not just good, bad, this or that.

[1323] It's one of the many cogs in a very complex system.

[1324] Yes.

[1325] There isn't an answer, right?

[1326] And it's okay to not have an answer.

[1327] Like, I love living in a world where there is no answer.

[1328] We're just being honest.

[1329] Right.

[1330] And I just think for me writing this book was shining a light, a personal and unlawful.

[1331] honest and authentic view on what goes on.

[1332] So people have their eyes wide open when they look about future careers.

[1333] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1334] There's a reality also to social pressure.

[1335] So we can say it won't affect them, but more people write books about these things or come out.

[1336] And there's pressure put on companies to do better when everyone's like, that's dangerous or that's bad or you're bad.

[1337] It weirdly distills down into an issue of consent.

[1338] Because if someone wants to work 90 hours a week and snort coke all night, I don't care if they're consenting to that.

[1339] We all get to pick what life we want to live and I want everyone to have whatever option suits them.

[1340] I can be a piece that some people have lives I would find toxic and terrible.

[1341] As long as they knew what they were up for and that they actually consented to the thing they were sold.

[1342] I think that would be the best outcome of this is just knowing what people are consenting to.

[1343] And then if they consent, I don't really give a fuck how miserable their life is.

[1344] I mean, I guess also in that vein, if you're with an abusive person and you're deciding to be in that relationship, you are deciding to be in that relationship, like you're making that decision.

[1345] It doesn't mean that the abuser is good or okay or should be doing it just because the person's like, okay, I'm okay being in an abusive relationship.

[1346] I agree with you.

[1347] He's still horrible or she is.

[1348] I agree with you.

[1349] But also, it's just everywhere.

[1350] It's like, do you want to play football and make tens of millions of dollars?

[1351] Yeah, okay, you might get CTE.

[1352] Let's at least tell everyone you might get CTE.

[1353] But I do think in this country, on this planet, if that's your decision, I'm going to have to respect it.

[1354] What's happening is not only is there a lack of transparency of what it's really like, there's actually a pitch that's very different.

[1355] Yes.

[1356] It's like, say, play football.

[1357] It's entirely safe.

[1358] Yeah.

[1359] Oh, this is really so outside of our wheelhouse.

[1360] I've really, really enjoyed this.

[1361] You too.

[1362] Thanks for sharing.

[1363] So the book is called Bulley Market, My Story of Money and Misogynia Goldman Sachs, Bulley Market.

[1364] Really a great read.

[1365] I got super sucked into it.

[1366] It's very well written and a world that I can't imagine many of us have any connection to.

[1367] I really want to commend you for leaving because I know, like that is the hardest thing anyone can do.

[1368] Right now you're telling her story.

[1369] Like she's stuck with me with these golden handcuffs.

[1370] She just wants out so bad, but she's got to remodel.

[1371] No. For a woman, especially, to have reached a level of success, to be applauded for that, the pride.

[1372] Knowing there's less opportunities for you.

[1373] So if you got one of the few opportunities.

[1374] Exactly.

[1375] They made you feel like you scored in a lot of ways you did.

[1376] To walk away from that, it is almost impossible.

[1377] So the fact that you did it is really, really commendable.

[1378] Thank you.

[1379] And I do think that's why my story is a bit unique.

[1380] because a lot of women who got to that rank stayed or went to a competitor.

[1381] Well, I'm a cynic by nature, too.

[1382] So I will say if you had written this book after three years of being there, what I might have cynically thought was, well, yeah, you didn't make the cut, so that's why you're pissed at the place.

[1383] But you made the cut.

[1384] You were in the gravy spot.

[1385] You could have written that out.

[1386] I'm so glad I left.

[1387] I mean, my husband and I talk about it all the time.

[1388] Back to who I was.

[1389] Yeah.

[1390] Who you like.

[1391] Yeah.

[1392] That's incredible.

[1393] Well, thank you, Jamie, so much.

[1394] Thank you for having me. It's been amazing.

[1395] All right.

[1396] Be well.

[1397] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1398] Here we are.

[1399] Welcome home.

[1400] Back in the attic.

[1401] Is your famous welcome home song?

[1402] Welcome home.

[1403] Welcome home.

[1404] That's our cure all song.

[1405] That's right.

[1406] There's that Edward Sharp home song.

[1407] Oh, is that one going on?

[1408] Oh, I love that.

[1409] song i don't sing i don't sing well home is where i that's my um naive melody my favorite song of all time talking heads which by the way this is fresh off the press this is a couple hours old driving the kids of school this morning yeah and there is a new version of my very favorite song this must be the place by the talking heads it's by sure sure can i play you two seconds of it it's an exciting version of it I like that version, right?

[1410] Yes.

[1411] I mean, to me, you're really taken, you're like, you're rewriting the Bible for me on this one.

[1412] You're remaking Godfather.

[1413] This is a dangerous endeavor, and they passed my test.

[1414] It's very playful.

[1415] Incredibly playful.

[1416] You should even hear how it takes off.

[1417] I don't want to bore everyone with the entire song.

[1418] But, boy, does it take off the playfulness?

[1419] Exciting.

[1420] I just ordered Calvin a banner that says this must be the place yesterday for his bedroom.

[1421] It's like a big camping banner.

[1422] Wabi.

[1423] What's a camping banner?

[1424] Like your camp...

[1425] A flag?

[1426] It's like a flag.

[1427] Okay.

[1428] Like you declare like Camp Rascal.

[1429] Like that's the division.

[1430] That is Rob's camp.

[1431] Of course it is.

[1432] Camp Rascal.

[1433] Do you want to tell people about your pants?

[1434] Speaking of Rascal.

[1435] I mean, I think you would be way better up describing my pants.

[1436] Okay.

[1437] So you bought some pants and you've made an alteration yourself.

[1438] I thought these pants were going to be like thin summer.

[1439] linen -y panes.

[1440] Linen, okay.

[1441] And when they came, they were so voluminous around the haunches, and then up like mid -cath at the end, they were crazy -looking.

[1442] I put these on it.

[1443] I was like, what do we do with these?

[1444] And I had spent a good deal of money on them.

[1445] Sure.

[1446] So they were sitting, right?

[1447] Yeah.

[1448] As they do with things I spend a lot of money on, and I can't accept that I'm never going to wear them.

[1449] Yeah.

[1450] And then I think on Friday, I was like, let's cut a foot or two off these and see where we're at.

[1451] And I did that and then I wore them all day Friday and I just love how they feel.

[1452] And they're either hideous looking on me or they work.

[1453] I can't tell.

[1454] No, I actually don't think it's either or.

[1455] Oh, okay.

[1456] Because they're not hideous.

[1457] Of course they work.

[1458] Well, I mean, yes, they're covering my genitals.

[1459] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1460] But they are intriguing.

[1461] They're one -offs.

[1462] I mean, they're an original.

[1463] They are.

[1464] because they hit you at about.

[1465] They're like koulots.

[1466] Let me stand up.

[1467] Let's get a real.

[1468] Let's not guess.

[1469] Okay.

[1470] So it's about, what, four inches below the knee, five inches?

[1471] Yeah.

[1472] But it's definitely two -thirds of the way up the cab and shin, maybe even three -quarters of the way up.

[1473] You know what you're doing?

[1474] What?

[1475] You're being Brad Pitt.

[1476] You're being so out there with your fashion right now.

[1477] And you even called it.

[1478] You said, oh, I'm going to be wearing skirts.

[1479] I'm going to be wearing skirts.

[1480] I'm going to be wearing skirts here in a minute.

[1481] And that's, I'm, you're right, I'm inching towards.

[1482] Wow.

[1483] I could in fact just have these seams opened up and maybe have them joined.

[1484] Yeah, make a skirt.

[1485] Oh, okay.

[1486] Cute.

[1487] This might be the first iteration of this karma.

[1488] I think so.

[1489] It's definitely that billowy material that works for a skirt.

[1490] They're comfortables all get out.

[1491] I mean, I'm really comfortable in these.

[1492] That's good.

[1493] I slept in these last night if you got to know the fultures.

[1494] Sure.

[1495] And then I woke up and I ran out of time.

[1496] I did look I was in this outfit when I dropped the kids off at school and when I got out of the car I was like I'm going for it are my kids self -conscious about this outfit that's very brad pity yeah it's pity real pity and then I ran into my good friend Scott Schaefer who was an AD on parenthood a great AD and now is head of physical production at HBO cool A I just love seeing him because we were good friends and then I get to talk to him about all the inside scoop at HBO which is fun yeah behind the cursory But I was wearing this outfit, well, two things happen.

[1497] God damn it, now we're here.

[1498] Yeah.

[1499] What's wrong?

[1500] Okay, back up.

[1501] I have the new goal of waking up at $5 .50 in the morning so I can write for two hours before I drop the kids off at school.

[1502] Well, I woke up at $4 .50.

[1503] I was kind of fucked.

[1504] And I'm like, what am I going to now stay up until $4 .15?

[1505] And I knew we had a long day.

[1506] So then I had to wrestle myself back to sleep, which means I didn't wake up till 7, which means I only got to do my journal, not my, my prose writing and my meditation.

[1507] Okay.

[1508] So I pretty much ran out the door.

[1509] I hadn't even looked in a mirror and I'm wearing the same outfit I slept in.

[1510] Run into Scott.

[1511] I'm like, I look like a bozo.

[1512] I look like a circus clown.

[1513] That's just the outfit.

[1514] Then I get back in the car.

[1515] I don't normally have sleepies.

[1516] Oh, my God.

[1517] I looked in the rearview mirrors.

[1518] I got like, I was like, fucking A, I had sleepies all.

[1519] Poor Scott was talking to me in this crazy outfit and I had sleepies.

[1520] He must have been grossed out.

[1521] No, he wasn't.

[1522] He must have thought I was unhoused.

[1523] No, he thought you were sleepy.

[1524] That's what sleepies mean.

[1525] I got in that car and I was looking in there and I white.

[1526] Oh, fuck, I had a sleepy on my left.

[1527] And then I was like, oh, my God, I'm on the right eye too.

[1528] Was it really yellow?

[1529] No, it wasn't like a goober in the middle.

[1530] It was literally below where like the folds of my chubby eyelids would be.

[1531] And it was like a little crust.

[1532] But why crust?

[1533] It wasn't so gross as just that's crust.

[1534] No, it's.

[1535] Oh, my God.

[1536] People are going to stop listening.

[1537] You're going to have to at some point.

[1538] No, it's fine.

[1539] Between the shitting my pants.

[1540] It's an audio podcast.

[1541] They can't see your crust.

[1542] But at some point, are they like, you know what, this guy's disgusting?

[1543] No. Okay.

[1544] Well, that's what happened this morning.

[1545] You're not a little embarrassed.

[1546] Oh, I'm sorry that happened.

[1547] It's okay.

[1548] You weren't going to tell us that.

[1549] You were keeping that.

[1550] No intention of telling anyone that.

[1551] That would have been something that.

[1552] Never came up.

[1553] Why?

[1554] Because you thought you might cry?

[1555] Just be my quiet, quiet shame.

[1556] I don't know.

[1557] But it's out there.

[1558] It came up.

[1559] Let's talk about the fact that you're home from your European vacation.

[1560] And massage.

[1561] And people are not going to.

[1562] And massage.

[1563] They're not going to be cool with us not asking an update because our last fact check ended with heavy speculation.

[1564] That's right.

[1565] And heavy encouragement.

[1566] You have a ring on your finger?

[1567] Yep.

[1568] I am engaged.

[1569] Oh, my, it was a huge development.

[1570] I do have a new ring.

[1571] Thank you for noticing, Rob.

[1572] It's a beautiful ring.

[1573] Chanel.

[1574] Oh, my God.

[1575] Shout out to Chanel.

[1576] I bought it myself.

[1577] It was not by my massage therapist.

[1578] Okay.

[1579] But I will give an update on that.

[1580] Please, please, please.

[1581] Can I suggest that you start on, say, Saturday when?

[1582] Oh, she.

[1583] Because you've now told Molly, Amy, and Kristen that you're, seeing him, and they've all had massages by him.

[1584] Right.

[1585] I mean, I get, sure, they arranged it.

[1586] Yes.

[1587] Because they've had these massages.

[1588] They believe it was a life -changing massage.

[1589] And so now they're starting to get really excited for you as the appointment closes it.

[1590] I want to point out that so much hype started building that you went into it, I would imagine, with the mindset of like, isn't this going to be terrible compared to, I think that's important.

[1591] Yes, it was very hyped up, but it's been hyped up for years.

[1592] And then, yeah, I'm going in.

[1593] I'm like, okay, well, really, I think I was looking for it to disappoint.

[1594] Okay.

[1595] I think a little part of me wanted it to be disappointing.

[1596] So then, well, I didn't tell the girls this.

[1597] I said it on here, right?

[1598] That he told me that it was early in his experience when he massaged them, but he has since ratcheted up his performance.

[1599] Oh, my God.

[1600] And I didn't tell them that.

[1601] You don't want them to feel like they got a bunk version.

[1602] Yeah, but they did.

[1603] Okay.

[1604] Because then.

[1605] We already know that he looked you up on Instagram from the previous?

[1606] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[1607] He looked me up on Instagram, and we know that because last episode, you made a joke about the oil.

[1608] Do I bring a lot of oil or not a lot of oil?

[1609] Yes, I'm just wondering how much oil to bring.

[1610] And then I said, well, he's looked at my Instagram, so I think he knows.

[1611] Okay.

[1612] So, massage was Sunday.

[1613] So Saturday, he said, tomorrow.

[1614] Tomorrow's the day.

[1615] Oh, yeah.

[1616] Foreplay.

[1617] Uh -huh.

[1618] And I was like, oh, yay, you know, I'm so excited.

[1619] And so he sends me his address.

[1620] So he was at his home.

[1621] Yeah.

[1622] It's his home, but it's his studio.

[1623] Sure.

[1624] I'm not taking anything away from his home.

[1625] It's just, it's not a brick and mortar storefront.

[1626] No. Yeah.

[1627] It's a residence.

[1628] I arrived at a residence.

[1629] Okay.

[1630] Yes.

[1631] And I was early.

[1632] Oh.

[1633] I text him.

[1634] I'm early.

[1635] No rush, though.

[1636] I'll just be standing outside the door.

[1637] So then he opens the door, he says, voila!

[1638] Oh, my God, that's how he greeted you?

[1639] No, actually, I don't remember.

[1640] He said something.

[1641] He had some bedhead.

[1642] Oh, interesting.

[1643] But it looked good on him?

[1644] Yeah.

[1645] This guy's got it made.

[1646] I was like, he's hot.

[1647] He is hot.

[1648] They were, okay, they were right.

[1649] Yeah, he's objectively hot.

[1650] Yeah.

[1651] But also, like, in a French way, like bedhead, like, then I come in.

[1652] He picks out my shoes for me. like my little sandals.

[1653] Oh, okay.

[1654] Okay, because you got to transfer from your your street shoes.

[1655] Yes.

[1656] Okay.

[1657] He sits me down on the couch.

[1658] There's all these oils in front of me. Um, and then he's just like wants to chat for a little bit.

[1659] Great.

[1660] So then we're chatting.

[1661] He's asking about my vacation, you know, no normal.

[1662] Okay.

[1663] Get to know you stuff.

[1664] Yeah.

[1665] He asks about Kristen.

[1666] Sure.

[1667] Updates.

[1668] Yeah.

[1669] He asked what I do.

[1670] So we, whatever, we're chit -chatting.

[1671] And I'm feeling so on edge a little bit.

[1672] Then it makes me pick out my oils.

[1673] Okay.

[1674] I pick a body oil and then also a scent oil.

[1675] Sure.

[1676] Lavender?

[1677] I picked lavender from my body and then this like kind of woodsy one.

[1678] Oh, smoky.

[1679] A whiskey.

[1680] Woods.

[1681] He doesn't speak great English.

[1682] Mm -hmm.

[1683] Which is kind of great.

[1684] Yeah.

[1685] Yeah.

[1686] So then he leads me into this other room, the sauna.

[1687] Okay.

[1688] That's in his home.

[1689] Yeah.

[1690] It's part of his studio.

[1691] No, I know.

[1692] I know.

[1693] I know.

[1694] I'm not being demeaning to him.

[1695] No, I know you're not.

[1696] I'm just telling you like, how big is the sauna?

[1697] Big.

[1698] It's infrared.

[1699] I help him learn the word infrared.

[1700] Great.

[1701] We go in there.

[1702] Now both people are getting something out of this experience, which is great.

[1703] He says 20 minutes in the sauna.

[1704] And then you'll shower.

[1705] There's a shower.

[1706] Oh, my God.

[1707] In front of the cameras.

[1708] And I said, okay, do I wear this?

[1709] So there's a robe hanging.

[1710] And I said, do I wear this robe?

[1711] And he said, no. Like he really hated the idea of me. wearing the robe in the sauna.

[1712] Yes, yes, of course.

[1713] And so I said, oh, okay, yeah.

[1714] And he said, nude.

[1715] Like, he kept saying nude.

[1716] He doesn't say naked because that's, I guess, an American word.

[1717] And I said, okay.

[1718] And then he said, you can wear this.

[1719] And there's this, like, little kind of paper underwear.

[1720] Okay.

[1721] If you want to wear this, you can wear this.

[1722] And he said, and then you'll put on the robe.

[1723] Right.

[1724] You can wear this underwear if you want, but it's better if you're nude.

[1725] Yes, yes, of course.

[1726] Does he stay in the room?

[1727] No. I think he sensed that maybe I was a little, hmm, about.

[1728] The nudity.

[1729] Yeah.

[1730] So he said, you'll be covered with a towel the whole time.

[1731] I was like, okay, great.

[1732] At this point, I'm like, I'm just going to have to surrender to this experience.

[1733] Because I will say, when he texting me tomorrow is the day.

[1734] Yeah.

[1735] I thought, is there a world in which Kristen has told him to have sex with me?

[1736] Oh, right.

[1737] And I really did not like that.

[1738] I need to make a charity case.

[1739] Yeah, I have a lot of baggage about being a charity case.

[1740] And so, and also it was just like, no, like I don't want that.

[1741] I'm making the decisions.

[1742] Yes, yes, yes.

[1743] So I had some fear about that.

[1744] So I went in being like, I need to make it pretty clear.

[1745] I'm not interested in that.

[1746] Yeah.

[1747] So anyway, he leaves the room.

[1748] I get into the sauna and it's really nice.

[1749] Yeah.

[1750] And then I get in the shower.

[1751] And then I was confused about the shower.

[1752] shower because I'm like, do I wash my hair?

[1753] I thought he was going to do some hair play, and I don't want my hair to be wet during hair play.

[1754] Of course.

[1755] So then I do get my hair wet, but I don't wash it.

[1756] And I wash my body.

[1757] And then I put on the robe and I put some makeup on my perfume.

[1758] No, you're in the opposite headspace of where I was.

[1759] It's so obvious you weren't in that headspace.

[1760] Is this why I made that joke.

[1761] Things do take a turn.

[1762] So then I go in.

[1763] Oh, he asked me, he says, do you want the music with lyrics or without?

[1764] Okay, great.

[1765] And I was like, I don't know.

[1766] You don't have preference.

[1767] Yeah, what do you think?

[1768] It's my first time.

[1769] In your apartment?

[1770] Reminding everyone that he has referred to this as an experience many times.

[1771] He was like, this is an experience.

[1772] Like, sometimes people cry and feel free to have all the emotions you're going to have.

[1773] Okay.

[1774] Okay.

[1775] So then I pick with lyrics.

[1776] Okay.

[1777] Go in.

[1778] He tells.

[1779] me to lay down and put the towel on.

[1780] And I look and like, in American massages, you get under a sheet.

[1781] That's right.

[1782] And it's like really covering your whole body.

[1783] You slide under that sheet.

[1784] Yeah, like some Brooklyn.

[1785] A beautiful Brooklyn.

[1786] Yeah.

[1787] This was not that.

[1788] It was a towel.

[1789] Yep, that you had just dried off or a new towel.

[1790] A new towel.

[1791] Okay.

[1792] But it's, you know, a towel doesn't cover that.

[1793] It's not like it's flowing off the table.

[1794] It's just just covering my body.

[1795] comes in, turns on the music, it's already, it smells so good that Woodsy oil smells lovely.

[1796] Yeah.

[1797] And then he starts and it, um, was.

[1798] Is it instantaneously connected and, and hot and lovely?

[1799] Yeah.

[1800] It is.

[1801] But he pulls the towel down.

[1802] And does he go down all the way past your butt or right out of the gates?

[1803] So you're just, your whole back is totally exposed.

[1804] Yes.

[1805] Oh my gosh.

[1806] Okay.

[1807] And I was like, okay.

[1808] Okay, here we go.

[1809] Let's go.

[1810] Buckle of.

[1811] And he does, like, he massages sort of to the music.

[1812] It was so, so sensual.

[1813] Oh, my God.

[1814] Extremely.

[1815] And he massaged everything, except my pussy pacidermis.

[1816] Okay.

[1817] But he's close.

[1818] When he was on your butt cheeks, does he, how close is he getting to your anus, if I can ask.

[1819] Yes.

[1820] I wasn't like, oh, his finger is touching my butthole.

[1821] Right.

[1822] Okay, good.

[1823] But, oh, the whole thing.

[1824] Well, so the back's the back.

[1825] You can only get so crazy.

[1826] Yeah.

[1827] Now, it's time to flip.

[1828] Oh, okay.

[1829] So he whispers to turn over.

[1830] And I do.

[1831] And there's multiple seconds before the towel comes back down on me. Oh, Rob.

[1832] What are your, what's your heart rate at right now, Rob?

[1833] He's just staring.

[1834] Oh, my God.

[1835] And does he make eye contact with you?

[1836] Well, my eyes are closed.

[1837] Okay.

[1838] You can just feel that he's staring.

[1839] It's not like you flipped and he walked to another side of the room.

[1840] No, no, no. He lifted the towel.

[1841] So you could roll over all the way on your back.

[1842] When I'm used to with the flip.

[1843] They stay on the side.

[1844] They lift the towel.

[1845] They're on the side and they're like keeping the towel is still pretty close.

[1846] I mean, the sheets still very close to the, so you're kind of squirming to get over.

[1847] This is not that.

[1848] The towel comes up.

[1849] Right.

[1850] You flip over.

[1851] Out in the open, I flip over, and then I'm there for some time before the towel comes back on.

[1852] How long do you think?

[1853] Five full seconds?

[1854] Four to five.

[1855] Four to five seconds.

[1856] Four to five.

[1857] Wow.

[1858] What's happening at your titillation meter, just being bare nude in front of him, knowing he's just enjoying the show?

[1859] Well, at that time, since it was like halfway through...

[1860] You're warmed up.

[1861] Yeah.

[1862] I was...

[1863] You were in no hurry for him to feed.

[1864] I wasn't.

[1865] It was fascinating.

[1866] That's very erotic.

[1867] It was incredibly erotic.

[1868] Just someone deciding they'd like to stare at you nude might be more erotic and exciting than, yes, than even, like, touching in the middle of kissing.

[1869] This is such a weird thing to say, but I feel like we had...

[1870] sex.

[1871] Right.

[1872] I really do.

[1873] Because of the level of intimacy and exposing yourself and trust.

[1874] It was so intimate.

[1875] There was one thing he did.

[1876] I was facing up.

[1877] He was put his hands under my back.

[1878] And lifts you up a little bit.

[1879] Yeah.

[1880] Yeah.

[1881] So you're arching.

[1882] Yeah.

[1883] Oh my goodness.

[1884] But your breasts are now being jutted out.

[1885] Everything's out.

[1886] Right.

[1887] And as he pulls your back up, they're now shooting out.

[1888] Right?

[1889] Am I understanding this, right?

[1890] Like, he's kind of rolling your spine.

[1891] It was like what you would do during sight.

[1892] It's a sexual move.

[1893] Yeah, yeah.

[1894] He did not touch my vagina.

[1895] I would be very clear about that.

[1896] Great.

[1897] Now tell me about the breast portion.

[1898] Yeah, he was rubbing your breasts.

[1899] Yes.

[1900] Over the nipples and everything.

[1901] Yes.

[1902] Oh, my God.

[1903] Does he do men's massage?

[1904] I don't know if he's ever done a man. I don't know how.

[1905] I need it.

[1906] Did you feel like you might.

[1907] you were too afraid to go like fuck it let's go for it let's embrace it and actually try to climax you weren't willing to go do that no could you have climax i guess that's a question um my body was ready for it yes that's that's all i can that's all i feel comfortable saying sure it's very hard to explain it was like if something actually crossed the line yeah it was would have ruined it.

[1908] Yeah, yeah, I feel you.

[1909] I got you.

[1910] You guys were on the perfect line between inappropriate and appropriate.

[1911] I mean, you're on the other side of appropriate, but not like whatever your bottom line was.

[1912] Also, if anyone has the opportunity, I would say, you take it.

[1913] Don't miss it.

[1914] I'm going to send my mom to him.

[1915] Your mom would love it.

[1916] I know.

[1917] I wonder if he would give her the same treatment he gave you.

[1918] I mean, probably not.

[1919] I mean, I love to believe he's just like a spreader of joy and eroticism and that he would give my mother.

[1920] that same yeah but he wanted well he would no he certainly wanted to date you well he said after he said you have a perfect body wow i was glad he said it after yes yes and not during right it was once i had my road back on and we were out of the room yes and then am i right that he asked what you were doing yeah but i think you think that was just innocuous yeah yeah What do you think, Rob?

[1921] He asked what I was doing later that night.

[1922] Directly after he said you have a perfect body.

[1923] No, it was a little, five, six minutes after.

[1924] Yeah, Rob, that was a request for a date.

[1925] Yeah, it sounds like it.

[1926] Once he said I had a perfect body, I was incredibly flattered.

[1927] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1928] You were on, you were floating.

[1929] I was already a mess.

[1930] Yeah.

[1931] And so then he said that and I was like, I got to go.

[1932] I got to go now.

[1933] Right.

[1934] Right.

[1935] Yeah.

[1936] Wow.

[1937] This is one of the best stories I overheard on this show.

[1938] It was a big day.

[1939] It was funny because of your joke about massaging the boots was so clearly a joke.

[1940] And then so when that was a real thing happening, I was like, I can't believe this.

[1941] This is actually happening right now.

[1942] that he did need to bring a certain volume of oil.

[1943] Exactly.

[1944] Okay, so here's what I thought might happen.

[1945] So you were very clear on all your things and then you left, and it was perfect.

[1946] It was perfect.

[1947] My prediction, and it wasn't like a 70%, I wouldn't a bet.

[1948] Like if I was doing odds in Vegas, I had a 30 % thought that you're going to have like a full half day to marinate on the post kind of euphoria of it all.

[1949] And then you'd go to dinner and you'd be drinking a glass of wine and then he'd reach out.

[1950] And he'd say like, how are you feeling after your experience?

[1951] And then I thought there's a 30 % chance that the thing could still take a turn that evening.

[1952] Right.

[1953] Did he reach out that evening?

[1954] He reached out, but it wasn't that evening.

[1955] It was later, but it wasn't like late.

[1956] Okay.

[1957] And it wasn't while you were having a glass of wine.

[1958] No. Perfect text.

[1959] I didn't want that.

[1960] I know.

[1961] I know you didn't.

[1962] I believe you a thousand percent.

[1963] I just think it's hard for you to understand that.

[1964] As a yes.

[1965] Yeah.

[1966] I won't even say as a guy.

[1967] As me. Yeah.

[1968] So anyways, you came home.

[1969] What an experience.

[1970] So the fact that after all the hype, the buildup, it was everything they said and then beyond that.

[1971] And I will say, I asked him, how long have you been doing this?

[1972] And he said, this three years, massage 17 years.

[1973] Wow.

[1974] So when he said he.

[1975] is doing something different.

[1976] He is doing something different.

[1977] Yes.

[1978] Yes.

[1979] I did think though, like if I had a boyfriend and I went to France and I had this experience.

[1980] Yeah, yeah.

[1981] It would have, I think, felt like...

[1982] I just cheated.

[1983] A little.

[1984] It really does like, it's like, oh, I'm awake.

[1985] I'm awake now.

[1986] I'm awake now.

[1987] Yeah.

[1988] Wow.

[1989] What a guy.

[1990] It was something.

[1991] I was not expecting to be able to report all of that back.

[1992] I thought it would just be like, Yeah, it was like a little hyped up, but it was great.

[1993] I expected it to be like an incredible massage, but this, it wasn't that.

[1994] It was an experience by God.

[1995] It did cross my, I got to tell you, because I'm so protective of you.

[1996] Yeah.

[1997] The only thing I thought is like, okay, so 30 % chance some wine happens.

[1998] You're not on the pill anymore.

[1999] Oh, I know.

[2000] That's what crossed my mind.

[2001] Are you going to come home right now with this guy's kid?

[2002] Luckily, abortion is legal in California.

[2003] That's true.

[2004] That's true.

[2005] But see, that's why abortion should be legal.

[2006] Because like if they need to go to have this.

[2007] Sorry, your massage therapist.

[2008] No, at that point, it's a masseuse.

[2009] No. Yeah, because what they don't like is that masseuses imply some kind of sexual flavors.

[2010] So if he did climb on top of you, then we could rightfully probably call him a masseuse.

[2011] And I was like, culturally, this is so interesting.

[2012] Like, what if it just feels so erotic?

[2013] Yeah, what if it's standard?

[2014] Because it's French.

[2015] I know.

[2016] Incredible story.

[2017] Incredible story.

[2018] Okay.

[2019] Now, ding, ding, ding.

[2020] We mentioned Six Flags in this episode, Six Flags, New Jersey, because that's where she's from Six Flags Great Adventure.

[2021] And that is a ding, ding, ding, because we just brought that up on another fact check.

[2022] About the roller coasters.

[2023] Biggest roller coaster is there.

[2024] Okay, pros and cons to coffee.

[2025] It has a lot of nutrients.

[2026] The coffee beans do.

[2027] vitamin B2, vitamin B5, B1, B3, folate, potassium, magnesium, phosphorus, lots of stuff.

[2028] It can add up to a significant portion of your daily nutritional intake.

[2029] But coffee really shines in its high content of antioxidants.

[2030] In fact, the typical Western diet provides more antioxidants from coffee than from fruits and vegetables combined.

[2031] Whoa.

[2032] Yeah.

[2033] That's the only place I'm getting my antioxidants.

[2034] I know.

[2035] I haven't had a vegetable in a while.

[2036] I know, I did think like, you're not even seeing it in its peak form.

[2037] Yeah, you're seeing it after a food orgy over the last 10 days.

[2038] Exactly.

[2039] Okay.

[2040] Caffeine, a stimulant that can enhance brain function and boost metabolism.

[2041] May protect your brain from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

[2042] Ooh, it says coffee triggers have a much lower risk of type 2 diabetes.

[2043] Low risk of liver diseases.

[2044] A low risk of depression and suicide.

[2045] And this fact check was bought to you on the American Council of Coffee.

[2046] Okay, but then it says coffee can cause anxiety and disrupt sleep.

[2047] Yeah, we can live with that.

[2048] Addictive and missing a few cups can lead to withdrawal.

[2049] Oh, yeah, who cares?

[2050] Just keep having the coffee.

[2051] You can't get your hands on a cup of coffee.

[2052] Exactly.

[2053] Yeah.

[2054] I guess if you add a lot of sugar, that's bad.

[2055] Yes, of course.

[2056] But this isn't an episode on sugar.

[2057] This is about coffee.

[2058] That's right.

[2059] Anyway, it sounds like a lot of pros.

[2060] Yeah.

[2061] Yeah, which is good.

[2062] I'm glad I'm drinking so much of it.

[2063] Okay.

[2064] Cold water versus room temp water.

[2065] I'm always told the Chinese believe it's not good to drink cold water.

[2066] I don't think it's about Chinese.

[2067] That's what I'm always told.

[2068] Oh my God, it is.

[2069] Okay.

[2070] All water is good.

[2071] Dr. Jill Blakeway, a licensed and board certified doctor of acupuncture and Chinese medicine and founder and clinical herbalist at Yenova says cold water is refreshing and cooling.

[2072] It's great on a hot day and a good choice after exercise.

[2073] Okay, so drinking warm water may be better in some instances where I'm drinking cold water might also be more beneficial.

[2074] It says room temp water can make you less thirsty.

[2075] Cold water is beneficial after a workout.

[2076] Room temp aids in digestion.

[2077] In Chinese medicine, you're right.

[2078] In Chinese medicine, we advocate drinking warm water because of its effects on the digestive system.

[2079] Drinking cold water can congeal the fats and food and because of that can make the digestive system.

[2080] Well, look, this I think we can say, without getting into too much hot water, ding, ding, ding, different populations of people around the world struggle with different issues kind of pandemically.

[2081] Warm water improves circulation and can relax muscles, which combat constipation and abdominal cramping.

[2082] Cold water can stuff up your sinuses.

[2083] Room temp water boosts metabolism because it increases your overall body temperature.

[2084] Cool.

[2085] Okay.

[2086] That's enough.

[2087] Yeah.

[2088] Does scoliosis skip generations?

[2089] Is scoliosis genetically passed from parents to their children?

[2090] Strong evidence suggests that scoliosis rented families, but no direct evidence has been found.

[2091] Also nearly a third of patients with adolescent, ideopathic scoliosis have a family history of the condition.

[2092] Only a third.

[2093] So, yeah.

[2094] That's not huge.

[2095] And that's from the scoliosis Institute.

[2096] Okay, she went to a good college, and she says it's one of the seven sisters.

[2097] And I didn't know what that was.

[2098] And I felt like a bad unophile.

[2099] I don't either.

[2100] Okay.

[2101] The Seven Sisters refers to seven highly selective liberal arts colleges in the Northeastern U .S. that are historically women's colleges.

[2102] Okay.

[2103] Barnard, Bryn -Marr, Mount Holyoke, Smith, Wellesley, Vassar.

[2104] Vassar College is currently a co -educational college and Radcliffe College was absorbed by 1999 by Harvard College.

[2105] Oh, wow.

[2106] Okay.

[2107] I only knew two of those.

[2108] I knew Vassar and Barnyard.

[2109] Barnard, you knew Wellesie, right?

[2110] Oh, yes.

[2111] I think that might have been in Catcher in the Rye.

[2112] And Smith, I knew.

[2113] But I didn't know, well, Bryn Mare, I think, is where she went.

[2114] Okay, now we know it.

[2115] Now we know.

[2116] Now we know.

[2117] I didn't know Mount Holyoke.

[2118] Nope, still don't.

[2119] These colleges were created to provide women with the educational equivalent to the traditional male Ivy League colleges.

[2120] It's pretty cool.

[2121] I like that.

[2122] Okay.

[2123] The New York Time article about the indicators that lead to climbing the economic ladder, it's called, quote, friending bias.

[2124] Okay.

[2125] And it was in August of this year.

[2126] A large new study offers clues about how lower income children can rise up the economic ladder.

[2127] Growing up in a community connected across class lines improves kids' outcomes and gives them a better shot at rising out of poverty.

[2128] That's what's cool about our kids' school.

[2129] It is very cool.

[2130] It's half -haves and half -half -nots.

[2131] Yeah.

[2132] So if you guys want to read this article, it's interesting.

[2133] Okay.

[2134] You said when traders have wins, they get a bump in testosterone.

[2135] Right.

[2136] So I could not find evidence of that.

[2137] What there is a ton of evidence of is when city traders have high morning testosterone levels, they make more than average profits for the rest of that day.

[2138] Oh, wow.

[2139] So the testosterone affects the outcome.

[2140] in some ways, weirdly, but I couldn't find the reverse.

[2141] Okay.

[2142] Do you know women have more testosterone than they have estrogen?

[2143] Yes, but the percentage is lower than males.

[2144] But what's interesting is we think of estrogen as being the female hormone and testosterone being the male hormone.

[2145] And obviously there's a big difference.

[2146] But I don't think anyone realizes women have more testosterone than they have estrogen.

[2147] Yeah, we learned that in our fertility podcast.

[2148] Oh, you did.

[2149] I learned it on Huberman talking to Peter Othiel.

[2150] It was with human life.

[2151] Oh, okay.

[2152] And depends on the person, the levels.

[2153] I have a lot, I think.

[2154] Self -diagnosed, like my sad.

[2155] Testosterone is the big opponent of fertility in men.

[2156] So for people who are thinking about doing testosterone replacement therapy, you absolutely cannot do it if you want to have kids.

[2157] It destroys your fertility.

[2158] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[2159] Okay, the rate of opiate addiction in vets while in Vietnam is 13.

[2160] 30 % and they come home and 4 % remain addicted.

[2161] That's the numbers?

[2162] That's what you said.

[2163] Oh, okay.

[2164] I've lost complete faith in those guesses.

[2165] There's this huge publication I found, and there's a table in here.

[2166] You're definitely right, let's just say, you're definitely right that the number goes drastically down.

[2167] There's a staggering drop off when they return.

[2168] But I'll read some of this because I have a broken down to any narcotic use, any heroin use, narcotics more than weekly for a month or more.

[2169] addicted to narcotics at any period, you're in positive for narcotics.

[2170] Okay.

[2171] So let's just use any narcotic use, 10 % since return.

[2172] And 43 % in Vietnam.

[2173] Okay.

[2174] And 11 % before Vietnam.

[2175] That's really weird.

[2176] It came down.

[2177] It came down after.

[2178] Wow.

[2179] But yeah, 43 % narcotic use.

[2180] Yeah.

[2181] That's a lot.

[2182] Yeah, two out every five.

[2183] Okay.

[2184] I have a surprise.

[2185] It's not really a surprise because you're, You told me to look it up, but.

[2186] Although it is a surprise because I've forgotten.

[2187] You have the best speakers I've ever heard on it.

[2188] Really?

[2189] It's so loud.

[2190] The traffic.

[2191] I can't read.

[2192] The boss.

[2193] Look that bathtub.

[2194] Calgon baths.

[2195] She's in a 6 ,000 gallon.

[2196] Circular bathtub, the Roman pillars.

[2197] I love it.

[2198] Pamper yourself with a Calgon bath.

[2199] Lose yourself in luxury.

[2200] They were one sentence away from saying have an orgasm in the bathtub.

[2201] It's kind of ding, ding, ding, ding.

[2202] It's very ding, ding, ding.

[2203] They're promising that that Calgon can give you the experience you got in that man's apartment.

[2204] Good luck, Calgon.

[2205] Oh, no. You lost something.

[2206] You lost the whole document.

[2207] No, what happened?

[2208] Well, I would imagine it'd die after the volume of the...

[2209] All my tabs went away.

[2210] Oh.

[2211] I don't think I have very many left, but...

[2212] Did your Chrome crash?

[2213] Sometimes if you reopen it, it says reopen tabs.

[2214] I know, but it didn't.

[2215] You guys both use Chrome?

[2216] Yeah, you should use Chrome.

[2217] It's good.

[2218] Fuck.

[2219] Sign that you're a good employee.

[2220] That's right.

[2221] That's right.

[2222] Was it Chrome, though?

[2223] Yeah, because Safari comes default on Apple.

[2224] Yeah, yeah.

[2225] And Chrome, you've got to add.

[2226] And Windows Explorer is the default?

[2227] browser I don't know what Windows Internet Explorer I think is discontinued now I think Firefogs maybe Oh Firefox yeah That was the most best employee Wasn't it Firefox?

[2228] No Chrome I just like to integrate With Google everything right Fuck okay I'll start using Just use it It's always begging me when I open Gmail The switch over Do you think maybe you're not using it Because you're like I don't want to be an employee anymore No No I don't It's probably an inflated confidence in Apple.

[2229] Like, well, Safari's got to be the best.

[2230] I like all the other Apple suite of products.

[2231] Safari's good.

[2232] Safari's good.

[2233] You know what's cool about Chrome.

[2234] Tell me. I could pull up my history.

[2235] Oh, well, you can do that on Safari.

[2236] No, no. You can.

[2237] You can do that on AOL.

[2238] That's OG shit right there.

[2239] Definitely, it's Chrome.

[2240] I'm just want to earmark out loud, but on a next fact check because this one's been so wonderful.

[2241] Good and long.

[2242] Yeah.

[2243] But just on an earmark that I have a grievance to error.

[2244] Oh, my.

[2245] Got outraged you.

[2246] So just speaking to that while you look at your thing, there's two things that sound racist that aren't in Formula One.

[2247] Oh, what?

[2248] Because they say regularly, like the Spanish driver, because it's an international sport and all these guys are from different countries.

[2249] Yeah.

[2250] So they'll say, like, Carlos signs like, oh, the Spanish driver is, you know, running.

[2251] They'll refer to their nationality a lot.

[2252] Oh, I see.

[2253] But when they say the Mexican driver, because Perez is from Mexico, it just feels racist.

[2254] That's right.

[2255] And the other one is Joe Granu, he's from China.

[2256] And when they say the Chinese driver, like that, especially if he's like, he's spun out or something.

[2257] And they'll say like, oh, the Chinese driver went wide.

[2258] It's steeply racist.

[2259] But it's objectively not because they're saying everyone's nationality.

[2260] But for some reason, when they say the Chinese driver or the Mexican driver.

[2261] There's a reason.

[2262] It's because in America, we do that to those nationalities.

[2263] Well, you just rarely hear someone saying this Mexican.

[2264] It's never positive after it's someone.

[2265] That's what I'm saying.

[2266] That's very American, though.

[2267] Always I'm like, oh, Chinese driver.

[2268] Why did they just say?

[2269] It's good that you have that reaction.

[2270] I like that.

[2271] Okay, hold on.

[2272] The history is not going as well as I wanted it.

[2273] To be on Chrome?

[2274] Maybe thinking of Safari.

[2275] No. I found it.

[2276] Okay.

[2277] So the question is, is America's GDP?

[2278] Is the Wall Street?

[2279] I'm so sorry, I'm pretty jet lagged.

[2280] Of course.

[2281] Does it look like I'm getting frustrated?

[2282] No, I'm frustrated with myself.

[2283] Because I can't talk right now.

[2284] What do you think about this reframing?

[2285] I kind of like it.

[2286] I've heard that it's a good idea.

[2287] I know you're aware of it.

[2288] Instead of saying, I'm sorry, I blank, say, thanks for your patience.

[2289] Oh, that's nice.

[2290] Thanks for your patience.

[2291] Yeah, no problem.

[2292] You don't want me an apology.

[2293] I don't know why that's a thing.

[2294] I just know intuitively I like it.

[2295] Like instead of coming in and going like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry.

[2296] I'm like, it's, oh, God, thank you for your patience.

[2297] Right.

[2298] Do you feel like it's taking less responsibility?

[2299] A little.

[2300] Hmm.

[2301] Yeah.

[2302] A little.

[2303] Because, like, I am sorry if I'm making mistakes.

[2304] Well, you don't need to be because I'm not upset.

[2305] I think it's for more mundane things that you're not supposed to over apologize because I've heard that too.

[2306] Like, this is a other thing I would love to help Blinking get over.

[2307] She says I'm sorry so much and drives me crazy because I'm like, you don't need to be sorry.

[2308] She does say it as it.

[2309] She almost says it.

[2310] It's a default.

[2311] Yeah.

[2312] Like, when we're playing soccer and she doesn't kick it perfectly to me. I know.

[2313] And I'm like, baby, you don't need to be like, this is part of.

[2314] But do you know what she's doing.

[2315] She's doing what I just did.

[2316] She's saying I'm sorry to herself.

[2317] And that's what I, in so many words, I said to her, it's okay for you to have a goal for yourself.

[2318] Yeah.

[2319] That you might even want to say, like, I know I can do better to yourself, but you don't owe me anything.

[2320] Yeah.

[2321] I don't have an expectation of you being perfect at passing a soccer ball 300 times.

[2322] Right.

[2323] So you don't owe me an apology because I had, there's been no unsaid contract that that's what I expect from you.

[2324] Yeah.

[2325] It's totally dependent on the scenario.

[2326] I think it's courteous to say, I'm sorry if you've impacted somebody.

[2327] Okay, the percentage of America's GDP that's Wall Street.

[2328] Oh, finance.

[2329] In 1970, the finance insurance industry is accounted for 4 .2 % of U .S. GDP, up from 2 .8 % in 1950.

[2330] By 2012, they represented 6 .6.

[2331] The story with profits is similar.

[2332] In 1970, the profits of the finance and insurance industries were equal to 24 % of the profits of all.

[2333] other sectors combined.

[2334] In 2013, that number had grown to 37 % despite the after effects of the financial crisis.

[2335] Wow.

[2336] Yeah.

[2337] So 30%.

[2338] 37.

[2339] Wow.

[2340] In 2013.

[2341] Yeah.

[2342] So it could be more.

[2343] That's why people should be critical of the finance industry, but the notion that we should get rid of it are totally.

[2344] Well, that's how this came up.

[2345] Yeah.

[2346] Yeah.

[2347] It's like it's naive.

[2348] You can't really talk about getting rid of any industry that's 30 % of our GDP without humongous colossal collapse of many systems in people's life.

[2349] Yes, I'm not interested in getting rid of it at all.

[2350] But I don't subscribe to the thought that it has to be toxic to work.

[2351] Right, right, right.

[2352] No do I think we should be held hostage by any industry.

[2353] That's not what I'm saying.

[2354] I'm talking to the people that are like dismantle Wall Street, no private banking.

[2355] No, I agree.

[2356] It's a big cornerstone of our overall economy.

[2357] And really, it's all England is now.

[2358] They stop manufacturing.

[2359] They have some luxury goods.

[2360] They have burberry.

[2361] That's a luxury good, yeah.

[2362] Burberry trench.

[2363] Okay, that's all for today.

[2364] Okay.

[2365] Now you have it.

[2366] We have an Easter egg for next fact check, which is always exciting.

[2367] Love you.

[2368] Thank you for that great story.

[2369] You're welcome.

[2370] Follow armchair expert on the Wondry app.

[2371] Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2372] You can listen to every episode of Armchair expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts.

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