156 - Mr. Cool & Nice - The Conan O'Brien Episode

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hey, this is exciting.

[2] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[3] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[4] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[5] Who killed Saz?

[6] And were they really after Charles?

[7] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[8] This season, murder hits close to home.

[9] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[10] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[11] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[12] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[13] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVeyne, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[14] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[15] Goodbye.

[16] And begin.

[17] Hello.

[18] Welcome to our podcast.

[19] Welcome to our podcast.

[20] Our podcast.

[21] Right?

[22] Yeah.

[23] I don't know when it's okay for me to speak.

[24] I feel like now.

[25] Now it's a good time.

[26] So, ladies and gentlemen, this is the first ever combo podcast of my favorite murder combined with Conan O 'Brien has no friends.

[27] Yes.

[28] That's not really the title.

[29] That's not the title.

[30] That's Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[31] Karen Kildaref, right?

[32] You just accidentally said this Conan O 'Brien has no friends.

[33] What I wanted to imply with my title was I have a lot of friends, but I'd like some more.

[34] What you intuited was Conan O 'Brien has no friends, which is shockingly closer to the truth.

[35] I'm sorry, let me try it again.

[36] This is take two.

[37] Oh, no, we're keeping that.

[38] Are you sure?

[39] That was really good.

[40] Because my take two is, this is the first dual episode of my favorite murder combined with Conan O 'Brien is shut down Irish Catholic and emotionally stunted.

[41] Yes.

[42] Right?

[43] That should have been the title.

[44] You please consult with me on these things So you can probably tell That I am a thin -lipped Very uptight Irish Catholic Yes There's a lot But you know what's interesting There's a lot broiling inside me And I didn't say boiling I said broiling Broiling, it's mostly from the top Broasted, remember broasted It's unbroasted Inside there's a lot broasting So We're an Irish Catholic right here too That's right I think you said Craftlett.

[45] I think I did too.

[46] I didn't realize we all drink beforehand, which is fine by me. I am more than happy to get loaded with you, ladies.

[47] This is one of the more high -stakes conversations, and we are, when it's the lowest of stakes, we fuck up constantly.

[48] So the fact that it's now high -stakes, it's like, we don't pronounce things correctly when it's the chillest version of podcasting.

[49] So now we feel like we've been kicked up into like the A -circle.

[50] I said Worcester instead of Worcester on the show.

[51] It's Worcester.

[52] Oh, everyone let me know.

[53] You just said Worcester.

[54] I totally did.

[55] And you thought that was the correct version.

[56] Say it like you spell it, bro.

[57] Like, come on.

[58] Wait a minute.

[59] You guys have been in the podcast game for a while and you've got a killer podcast.

[60] So I'm the newbie.

[61] So you should act like two Fonzie's to my Ritchie.

[62] I refuse.

[63] I'm Ralph Mouth.

[64] If only, if only we could.

[65] If only we could kick that proverbial.

[66] Well, I guess I am that leather jacket wearing Jewish motorcycle writing, Fonzie style person to begin with.

[67] Oh, you're claiming to be the Fonzies.

[68] Yeah.

[69] You sort of, your hair, you could comb that into the Fonsi hair.

[70] You have a very beautiful hair.

[71] Thank you.

[72] I went to Jewish camp with his daughter.

[73] Really?

[74] He's a lovely man. He was so nice.

[75] He's one of the nicest men.

[76] Yeah.

[77] He really is.

[78] If only one of us could think of his name.

[79] Winkler.

[80] Keep covering.

[81] It's Henry Winkler.

[82] It's obviously Henry Winkler.

[83] Of course it is.

[84] Everyone knows that.

[85] It's Henry Blinkler.

[86] Welcome.

[87] Okay.

[88] There's no transition here.

[89] No. We should actually have no transition so we can take that part out if we want to.

[90] The whole beginning.

[91] You don't, why?

[92] I don't edit anything out anymore.

[93] I think let people hear everything.

[94] Really?

[95] Let them hear how far.

[96] flawed we are yeah because i'm tired of people thinking i'm some kind of christ figure it must be exhausting that when you cut me i do believe oh i do resurrect but i do believe he does it all yeah welcome to the podcasting world it's fun yeah you made a splash yeah uh it's been a lot of fun um i think after 25 years of having to talk to people in very uh constrained circumstances and I loved that.

[97] I grew up watching that, but seven minutes and then you have to go to a commercial break and then you have to start it up again and being in a room with people and having a very intimate conversation and letting the part of your brain go that works in a writer's room that's part of the creative process and let it go unfiltered has been a real joy.

[98] We've only, I don't know, we've released five or, I think we've released five.

[99] and they've been really fun to do.

[100] That's been the biggest surprise is how much it doesn't feel like work to me. It's not, right?

[101] It's just chatting and riffing.

[102] And yet we're making tens of dollars.

[103] Oh, my God.

[104] The hundreds that are rolling in monthly.

[105] Yes.

[106] But more about me undies.

[107] The underwear.

[108] That's fun to wear.

[109] Yeah.

[110] Oh, no. Yeah, it's really fun.

[111] And I think for you, it's good too, because whenever you're interviewing people are talking to someone, and it's about their career and what they've got going on and whatever, yeah, whatever stupid movie that is coming out.

[112] Yeah, what they're promoting.

[113] Did you say stupid?

[114] Yeah.

[115] Oh, no, everyone's movie's amazing.

[116] It is amazing.

[117] Paramount put a chip in my brain about 15 years ago.

[118] So all movies are amazing.

[119] Great.

[120] I have a hard time watching.

[121] I love talk shows.

[122] I love your talk show.

[123] The interview part always makes me really nervous.

[124] In the same way that, like, watching an award show, the, like, speeches make me so uncomfortable.

[125] comfortable and cringe.

[126] You're worried for, I hope, I'm worried for these people.

[127] Right.

[128] Yeah.

[129] Well, I feel like when you're sitting in that seat, you have to do a thing, you have to pull off natural conversation that's entirely planned, and you have to be a good enough actor to make it seem real.

[130] You have to stay in the moment, so you have to have a little bit of improv awareness.

[131] And you can't drive it too hard.

[132] I've seen people that I know that have gone on there and just really try to drive it themselves, which is always bad.

[133] It doesn't work, no. There's so many ways for it to go.

[134] And bad that I think there's a stress because it's just not a regular conversation.

[135] One of the things I found out a long time ago about doing one of these late night talk shows or probably any talk show is the trick, you know, people used to say you've got to figure it out, you've got to figure out who you are, and I used to think, well, that's not the case.

[136] The trick is to figure out who you were all along, be completely yourself, but in the most unnatural environment you can imagine because I know you've worked for Ellen and it's lights and it's cameras and audience and you have to get out in six minutes and it has to be on a laugh then you get back into it again and what I have found is that it took me a while to figure out how to be Conan in that situation where that didn't feel weird and then get to the point where I started hunting for I don't want to hear the prepared story If the prepared story is really good, great But I'm always on the hunt for the accident Yeah Or someone sort of mispronounces something And I'll say, wait, what was that?

[137] And then we go down a rabbit hole And that's where the joy is And so if you can do that in that weird situation That takes a couple of years to get to Where you have that confidence But the nice thing about This format, and I listen to a lot lot of podcasts and I really enjoy.

[138] There's this ancient thing where someone tells you a story or people are talking and you fill in the rest.

[139] And we're so digitally obsessed that we think you have to see everything while it's happening.

[140] But I now listen to podcasts while I'm lying in bed and it reminds me when I was a kid and my mom, there were six kids in our family and we were all in different rooms.

[141] I was in a room with my two brothers.

[142] There were three of us.

[143] And my mom would put on records.

[144] And she would put on like a Bob Newhart record.

[145] We would listen to comedy records and we would fall asleep.

[146] And it was someone telling a story.

[147] And so just having that in your ear, having something in your ear and you're filling it in is lovely.

[148] Well, and we get that all the time people saying, you know, you don't know me, but I feel like you guys are my best friends.

[149] It's because people obviously listen to podcasts when they're working or doing stuff they don't want to do or when they're alone.

[150] So they are having this experience that like whatever the actual experience we had when we were recording it, they're having this then third party experience.

[151] It's kind of like filling up a part of their day that either they used to dread like it's a commute or it's work where it's making work better.

[152] And it's like we get all this credit when people like it so much and it's also like you've made my commute go by so fast or whatever.

[153] It's like we're just benefiting from the byproduct of people being able to be in their head and it's not a visual medium.

[154] Well, I also think that you're making connections with people and I'm sure you've seen this.

[155] I'm sure you've done live shows.

[156] Yeah, yeah.

[157] And you see when you do a live show, people come and they have this connection to you too, which is, might flip you out, but they've been building that connection because it's extremely intimate when someone's talking to you and they're listening to you sometimes in intimate situations like people are lying in bed or in their car alone and I do think that there's something there's a reason why podcasts they may not you know more people may watch the Grammys but their connection to it is not that deep right whereas people that connect to what you're doing and how you're talking and what you're talking about, it's this mind shaft that goes really deep, much deeper than other kinds of entertainment.

[158] I think that's what's really cool about this.

[159] Yeah, yeah.

[160] I think that when they say, I feel like I know you or you're my best friend, it's like if we're doing it right, then you totally know us completely, like you know everything about me. Well, when I listen to you, I feel like I know both of you and I'm very angry at it.

[161] That makes sense.

[162] You're two very good friends who have betrayed me. Who will not let you talk.

[163] No matter what you say.

[164] I keep talking.

[165] When I listen to you guys, I keep talking and you're not talking back.

[166] We're rude.

[167] And then I'd become enraged.

[168] Sure.

[169] Which is what we're like in real life.

[170] Yeah.

[171] I actually used to have that where I was, there's a couple podcasts I was obsessed with in the beginning and I would fall asleep listening to them and then have dreams where I was standing at a party and the people who host of the podcast would be talking.

[172] And I keep going, yeah, but, like literally trying to break into a conversation for the entire dream.

[173] That's when you're like, I need a podcast.

[174] Did you, here's what I happen.

[175] When I listened to a podcast when I fall asleep, when I wake up, I realize I fell asleep during the podcast, which is fine because you want to go to sleep.

[176] But then I have to go back and find out around where I lost consciousness.

[177] Yes, exactly.

[178] And that's really hard because I'm like, wait a minute, I think I remember this part.

[179] I got to go further back.

[180] It's all slightly familiar.

[181] Yeah, exactly.

[182] Sleep timer, man, that sleep timer function.

[183] Oh.

[184] And then you know you went a half hour back.

[185] Let me give you some technical.

[186] Let me tell you guys real quick.

[187] This is where the tips part rolls out.

[188] You're like the SPAC.

[189] Yeah.

[190] I have bad insombole.

[191] so I sleep with yeah always podcasts in my ear constantly yeah nice murder stories murder stories I well yeah that's my jam let's hear it that's crazy lifelong fan well okay let me tell you something about I have had a and everyone knows this about me when I told friends that I was coming on this podcast they laughed because not derisively not they just laugh that it's the perfect place for me to go Because my entire life, I'd been fascinated with murder and very morbid.

[192] It started with the Lincoln assassination.

[193] Whoa.

[194] And I was four.

[195] You were there?

[196] I was there.

[197] I know I'm older than you ladies.

[198] But yes.

[199] That play was amazing.

[200] I was born in 1858.

[201] I was a child usher at Ford's Theater.

[202] But yeah, I was, I remember we took a child, my dad, got us all to pile into the station wagon, and we drove to Washington, D .C., and he wanted us to see all the sites.

[203] And I would have been, I think, six maybe.

[204] And we visited Ford's Theater, and I was just, I couldn't believe that someone got shot there, let alone the President of the United States.

[205] And then we went downstairs, and they showed you could see the gun, and they have the bullet at the basement of Ford's Theater.

[206] And then we went across the street to the Peterson House where they have the bed.

[207] And I was transfixed and just read books about the Lincoln assassination as a child over and over and over again.

[208] And then in my family, they make fun of me. My brothers make fun of me because I always, like we visited Hawaii and the big island.

[209] And there was some big battle that took place there.

[210] And I was not paying attention.

[211] And we're up on a mountain.

[212] and I'm not paying attention on the guide said some say to this day if you look closely enough you can see the bleached bones of the Hawaiian warriors and I ran and leapt and leaned way over the railing and my dad had to catch my belt so I didn't fall like 500 feet my brother Luke was there and he was just he so everyone's always known that I've been an incredible freak for murder and I was embarrassed about it for a while because I know so much about so many different murders and when people start to talk casually about a murder I know something about and I start to say well it was the knife had a copper hilt come on and it's interesting the blood type was B you know whatever and they it's gone to the point where I just finished a tour an 18 city tour and in every city if you look hard enough at the right time of night you will find forensic files.

[213] Oh, yeah.

[214] And what I love is that forensic files, and what I loved is that I was in one hotel where they had a channel that was just yoga, and it was this beautiful woman wearing super tight Lulu Lemon doing yoga.

[215] And I was like, uh -huh, where's forensic files?

[216] And then I find forensic files.

[217] And they always pretty much tell you who the creep is, who did it.

[218] But then he has a quote, alibi.

[219] Yeah, yeah.

[220] And then they basically, they tail him for a while, and they get his DNA, and then they, they, they, they, they trap him, and then it's him at the end crying.

[221] Yeah.

[222] And that voiceover guy is the most, we, I used to know his name offhand, but.

[223] The worst, though, is that, like, it's so dated, which I love dated crime shows, because there's so many of those, you know, forensic, you know, the, the shit they used back then.

[224] Let's watch the language.

[225] Excuse me. This is a primarily a show for children.

[226] My young, my young daughter is listening to this, right?

[227] Oh, no. Fuck.

[228] She listens to everything.

[229] God damn it, penis.

[230] Vagina.

[231] Those aren't bad words.

[232] They're not bad words, but they're not words used in my house.

[233] Oh, okay.

[234] Got it.

[235] They're bad to the Catholics.

[236] You guys are unix.

[237] No one's allowed to identify their genitalia in my home.

[238] Please don't.

[239] I mean, what is more fun than identifying your genitalia, though, around your house?

[240] Oh, everything's dated.

[241] Hair, you know, hair samples and all this bullshit.

[242] It's all really dated.

[243] All the stuff that doesn't hold up in, court anymore.

[244] All the stuff that they find, and always it's an acid wash jacket.

[245] His flock of seagull's acid wash jacket left a trace.

[246] And so, yes, it's very late 80s, sometimes early 90s.

[247] Also, those repetitive, if they can get a reenactment where a young woman is wearing a red bra, they'll show that thing four times.

[248] Yeah.

[249] It's just like, oh, no!

[250] And it's like someone trying to fend off a knife.

[251] They don't really do that anymore.

[252] They've gotten, everyone's gotten a little more hip.

[253] to how disgusting that is.

[254] Yeah, exploitive.

[255] I do think one of my all -time favorite shows was autopsy on HBO.

[256] And my only problem with that show is that they didn't make enough of them.

[257] They clearly started to run out.

[258] So when I had the late night show on NBC, I was so obsessed with that show that I got the forensic pathologist from that show, Baden.

[259] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[260] I got him on the show.

[261] And all he did was tell jokes the whole time.

[262] I mean, I got him there because I'm a huge fan of, I love that show, and it was so graphic, and it showed you the autopsies and the photos and explained how it happened.

[263] So I got him on the show, and he told autopsy jokes.

[264] No. Like forensic jokes the whole time, and they were really dirty forensic jokes.

[265] No, they weren't like forensic dad jokes or anything like that.

[266] Well, one of them, I actually remember you can edit it out if it's too much, but he was talking about they were doing an odd, once a forensic.

[267] pathologist was doing an autopsy on a man they removed the sheet and the man the body had a giant penis and he said to this female assistant well that penis reminds me of mine and she said the female pathologist said wait it reminds you of yours is yours that big and he said no but it's dead and lifeless and I was just like and then you burst into tears no no I'm here to find out about murder not to hear but he clearly thought well I'm on Conan I better load up the old pathology dick jokes I better do the thing I'm not good at on TV and ignore the thing that I am That's a great show though Yeah That's amazing It's really graphic though And you don't like The crime scene photos And the graphic stuff Me Right Yeah well I don't like I'll watch a TV show of it Because I can just kind of turn away And then when I turn back Other stuff is happening But I won't look up a crime scene photo Just to stare at mangled bodies Yeah I can understand that It just kind of sticks at my head so I don't like it.

[268] Me too, but I fucking can't help myself.

[269] Again, with the language base.

[270] You're just going to have to keep saying it because that's how she does it.

[271] This is no podcast.

[272] Part of my deal is that all of these air on Nickelodeon the next day.

[273] Oh.

[274] You know you're not allowed to have a podcast if you don't curse in it.

[275] I didn't know that.

[276] Yeah.

[277] Yeah, all of them.

[278] Oprah.

[279] All of us.

[280] Super Soul Sunday is filthy.

[281] Super fucking Soul Sunday was the original.

[282] Hey, this is exciting.

[283] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[284] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[285] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[286] Who killed Saz?

[287] And were they really after Charles?

[288] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[289] This season, murder hits close to home.

[290] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[291] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[292] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists around.

[293] eyes.

[294] Who knows what'll happen once the cameras start to roll.

[295] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, Devine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[296] Only Martyrs in the building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[297] Goodbye.

[298] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[299] Absolutely.

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[316] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[317] Goodbye.

[318] It is funny how what I've said to my people, this is how much.

[319] I'm into it.

[320] My wife found a company recently.

[321] We have this door that's always blowing open that leads to our backyard.

[322] And so she went to get, you know, we had a door stop that wasn't very good.

[323] She just happened upon a company that makes big wooden blocks that hold the door in place and you can print anything you want.

[324] Now she's my wife of 16 years.

[325] So you think It would be like, I love you or Conan Rules or something like that.

[326] For me, for my birthday, it says murder.

[327] Because she knows I'm obsessed with murder.

[328] And so people come in, my head writer for the first time, he's been to the house before, but he hasn't seen this block.

[329] And he just held it up and went, what the fuck?

[330] Says murder.

[331] And that's one of my obsessions.

[332] I just feel like when you, you know, knock on wood someday die, she's going to be suspected.

[333] based on that brick alone.

[334] Well, the other thing I've always said is I love murder so much that my goal is to either murder or be murdered.

[335] Great.

[336] And people, people, I've said that to people and they're like, don't say that.

[337] And I'm like, no, no, no. I really either want to murder or I wish to be a murder victim.

[338] But I'm so into it that being a murder victim would feel like, oh, I'm part of this whole cool thing.

[339] Well, yeah, you've studied so long.

[340] And you've put so much work into it.

[341] I would know how to lie.

[342] on my shag carpet just the right way.

[343] Oh, okay.

[344] I've really put a lot of thought into it.

[345] You have a shack carpet?

[346] Yeah.

[347] Well, just because of all murders happen on shag carpet.

[348] Yeah, that's right.

[349] You have to be wearing a red bra too.

[350] That helps.

[351] Trust me. Don't even.

[352] Don't ask about the panties.

[353] But I, yeah, I just have always been fascinated with it.

[354] Well, we brought you here tonight to, it's the game we play on the show now called Kill us and then we'll kill you.

[355] Kill or be killed.

[356] Do you think growing up in Boston had anything to do with that with your Whitey Bulgers and the people that were around in that culture?

[357] I'll tell you, Whiteie Bulger did not influence me at all.

[358] Okay.

[359] I was not really that aware growing up in the late 60s and 70s.

[360] I wasn't that aware of Whitey Bulger.

[361] I was very aware of the Boston Strangler, and I heard a lot about the Boston Strangler.

[362] and one of the detectives who worked the case apparently lived sort of in our neighborhood down the street and my mom would talk about him working on the case and all I knew about that case because obviously it was not a case it was appropriate for a kid to be reading about but I was always interested in it and I always felt intuitively dissatisfied with the result of that case.

[363] Yeah.

[364] And then later on, when I read about the case, it does not have the resolution that gives you satisfaction.

[365] No. And so it's always in my mind.

[366] And all of those murders happened around the time, probably maybe shortly before I'm born.

[367] I'm born in April of 63 in Boston.

[368] But they all happen in the areas where my families, my mother and father are living in Belmont.

[369] and then they moved to Brookline but it's all very close to where we were and the ones that intrigue me are always the ones where I think you know what I don't know what the answer is I really don't and I think there was a little bit of a sense in Boston like well we arrested somebody they stopped he dies in prison so we're done and you think I don't know if that would hold up today with today's forensic pathology I don't know they found DNA on that match him on eventually on one of the victims but you know there's however many eight other victims that don't have a DNA match I think you can't just blame all of them on him well and also I feel like definitely back then there was so little oversight that any cop could go put any DNA anywhere they wanted because I think that was one of those things of like like comic book style of like we got to close this case the pressure's mounting you know what I mean like in those those murders especially were so graphically horrible and like even hearing a little bit about the details of those cases just like old women splayed and it's disgusting and horrifying it's like end it and we're not talking about it i think the other thing too is now there's this sophistication about um you know crimes that involve only women there's this sophistication about um male rage male inadequacy and how it's manifest itself with women and there were certain things that whoever the Boston Strangler was, was doing to these victims, which was meant to humiliate them as women.

[370] And so clearly you're dealing with someone who's got incredible gender stuff they're dealing with.

[371] And today I think they'd be much more sophisticated about it.

[372] But if you look at black and white photos, you know, of, I mean, so many crimes back then You see these sort of big, heavy working class guys in heavy coats with gunstrapped to their hips, and they're nine to five guys.

[373] And this is freaky.

[374] This is not, this is way above what anyone can imagine.

[375] Well, they're still human beings.

[376] So, like, no matter how grizzled a detective you are, you know, a lot of those cases that are like the really high profile ones, like Richard Speck or whatever, whereas like the guys, they immediately call in.

[377] the guys that have the most experience and people are walking into the that apartment building in Chicago walking out and vomiting and they're just coming in and out like as if they're being told to do it because it's that there are levels and limits to even what a experienced detective has experienced and they were those people were seeing things they'd never seen ever I just feel like in the modern era um they've broken it down so that science literally scientists go And they're looking at things, they're not looking at the whole picture, they're just there to see, I'm here just to look at, you know, what DNA evidence is on the scene.

[378] Well, I'm here to look at what the gun splatter is, what the blood splatter is, you know, and I'm here to look at.

[379] And so because they've been able to break it up into different categories, it might be more tolerable for people.

[380] I mean, I don't know when there's a school shooting, like Sandy Hook.

[381] And then you think human beings had to go in there.

[382] Yeah.

[383] And I don't know how they can, I don't know how you can do that.

[384] And my, I have incredible respect for people that could do that.

[385] Yes.

[386] I just think it's absolutely.

[387] And how do you do that?

[388] And if I had to do that, I would retire immediately afterwards.

[389] A hundred percent.

[390] You know, I would just say, okay, I saw.

[391] that and now I am no longer able to do this for a living.

[392] Because those are also the, like those cases are the extremes of, of the business.

[393] You know what I mean?

[394] It's not like, thank God, those aren't as common.

[395] I mean, that's becoming less and less true.

[396] But I think especially for the, I mean, some of those cases from the 60s or whatever, the cops went in with members of the press.

[397] Like there was not only no taped off crime scene and please be careful where you walk, It was everybody come on through and take a look and let's just see what happens.

[398] Like the more recent advancement of all this forensic stuff is like it basically is kind of, it's opening all those doors.

[399] And then at the same time, it's kind of like making people realize how wrong it's been.

[400] Like it used to be, if a guy went in and was there at the crime scene for the Boston Strangler, he would see something horrible and be like, no one's talking about this.

[401] Do you not take pictures.

[402] like he would be making decisions as a human being that were very bad for crime solving.

[403] You know what I mean?

[404] And thinking he was doing the right thing because this is a human being and you know what I mean?

[405] Like that's, he was doing what he thought was best.

[406] And now we, only now we know with like the advancement of technology that like, no, no, no. Nobody comes in, but we have to talk about it and it has to be brought to the light of day because people need to know that this is a possibility.

[407] I mean, I think that's why, especially these days, true crime is more and more people are going, yes, I am interested in this because I felt like I was a ghoul before when nobody seemed to be interested in it.

[408] And now I can say it now that it's like, quote, unquote, a trend.

[409] I think there's a thing where it is comforting to know that there are just people that are interested in this.

[410] What makes somebody, as someone who is raised Catholic and I think with a really good moral compass, I've always been fascinated by why would someone do the worst thing that you could possibly do so surprising why would someone do that and then there are i found myself just getting immersed in you know macdonald like the green beret like what really happened yes what made him yeah what made him i don't see it when someone quotes snaps and it was just in the news recently where someone kills his pregnant wife and i suppose is it three children and, and I think it was two.

[411] Two children.

[412] Yeah, two children.

[413] And, you know, you can't help.

[414] I can't help but think as a dad, I don't understand what gets you there.

[415] I don't understand.

[416] I've been annoyed, but I don't understand what gets you there.

[417] That's beyond.

[418] And we're used to thinking, well, we're pretty smart.

[419] We can understand things.

[420] but what it's why of all the murder cases and I've read I think I've read about so many murder cases the one I've got a few that I'm really fascinated with one I've never understood is the Jean Bonnet Ramsey I don't understand it I've read a lot about it no explanation makes sense to me yeah even the one I've the answer I've settled on that I think a lot of us have of you know what is your answer An accidental, you know, fatal blow by the brother, and the parents helped cover it up to not tarnish his entire life, their own name, all this bullshit.

[421] Even that is like kind of, it's so far -fetched and like so far out there that parents would do something like that to their kid.

[422] But also I thought she was, wasn't she?

[423] She might have been sexually assaulted before.

[424] have history of it.

[425] So that...

[426] Nothing makes sense in that one.

[427] And then it's so tragic all around because the mom passes away and, you know, you think, you know, just to lose a child.

[428] And then if you're, if someone is being wrongly accused, that's, you know.

[429] What if we're inflicting more pain.

[430] I mean, just, I did that so, I don't know, I just, so I get into this, uh...

[431] But, I mean, that one has every piece, though, because it, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, just as likely or like, you know, percentage wise, because they had so much money that they could be covering up and, you know, potentially somebody in that family is like a sociopath.

[432] So they don't care.

[433] They are, they just want to make sure that their shit is covered and everything, like the decks are clear.

[434] So you're not buying that someone came, that you definitely think it was someone in the house.

[435] I mean, statistically, the statistics would say overwhelmingly it's someone in the house.

[436] the house.

[437] And the fact that the dad said, let's go searching, and he went down and found her first, is very weird.

[438] Suspects.

[439] And, I mean, this insane ransom note that just has.

[440] But how come they've never been able to match up the handwriting?

[441] They matched it to her.

[442] They did?

[443] I don't think conclusively, but yeah.

[444] But the problem is, then, it's like basically a small police force in, is it Colorado Springs or Boulder?

[445] It's Boulder.

[446] And it's Christmas Day, right?

[447] So the most inexperienced people went to be the first people on the scene because everyone else was like, I have time, I'm and stay home with my family.

[448] And they, from minute one, began to botch it.

[449] And then on top of that, there's somebody who potentially, now it could be entirely victims and some weird thing happened, someone broke in.

[450] But also it could be that there are people with the money and the resources to begin to cover things up and do things that you were.

[451] all their friends over when the ransom note says do not call the cops don't tell anyone they invite all their friends over which we know we know when someone kills someone they want someone else to find the body right you know so he's leading him around the house and they're not finding her body where he where he hit it right finally he stumbles upon it the the um the other thing about murder which we've learned like a billion times is how money affects it how much it is about class Yes.

[452] So, and this is clearly like a legitimate source of anger for, you know, members of the, you know, American population that don't have money or there are a certain race and they feel like no one care, you know, 35 of us could get killed and no one cares.

[453] And then a rich white person is murdered.

[454] And what happens is, you know, ironically, many people think it happened in the OJ case where because he was a celebrity, yeah, he's African -American, but he's a celebrity.

[455] And so because he's a celebrity, they showed him so much deference.

[456] And they cut the interview off when they finally did get him.

[457] And with a little pressure, he might have said more, but they clearly cut that interview off.

[458] And I think it is very common when people come into a house and a big house and a fancy house.

[459] And someone who has status is saying, being polite to them, they show them deference.

[460] And then you get, you don't get the same result as if, you know, law enforcement was going in and saying, hey, wait a minute, we're going to assume 95 % of homicides that happen in a home.

[461] The person was killed by someone in the home.

[462] So we're going to treat everybody that way until we get the answer.

[463] That probably doesn't happen if they're rolling in a rich neighborhood.

[464] I think it's an automatic bias, you know, that they have that, they call them high -risk victims, you know, and they, it's almost like when you call them high -risk, it's like, you deserve it a little more, and it's, you know, more likely to happen to you, so we're going to care a little less.

[465] Right.

[466] You brought it on yourself.

[467] Right.

[468] I mean, we learned that lesson because liking true crime for so long, I never put it together, realized it, but it's like these true crime cases I was interested in are the ones.

[469] that have been served up.

[470] So it's like your John Wien Gasey's and your Ed Geese and your Boston Stranglers and all these ones.

[471] But then as you look at it, you're like, oh, but you can go in and find just as many people.

[472] Like the Grim Sleeper was active in like South Central for over 20 years.

[473] He just killed women whenever he wanted, however he wanted, people in the neighborhood knew, everybody knew.

[474] It's such a huge case that we've never covered it because it would take so much research for a 20 -year serial killer when most of them work for like five max.

[475] And if he's operating in Brentwood, California, or...

[476] And blonde ladies were disappearing.

[477] It would be a totally different story.

[478] But this is like, it's things like that where I had no awareness of it until we start telling these stories and then realizing these are the stories that get brought that the media knows if it's a blonde little girl that gets murdered, people will buy more newspapers.

[479] Or at least that's the story they tell us on themselves.

[480] And so that's the way things get prioritized.

[481] And the story of the grim sleepers isn't about, it's about, it's about police complacency and negligence.

[482] It's not about this serial killer.

[483] You know, I mean, it is, but it's about victims mattering or not matter.

[484] You know, it's funny because this brings up one of my, one of the tropes I've noticed most about any murder show, whether it's, you know, it could be forensic files, it could be American justice it could be a dateline all of these shows begin the same way they had the perfect life and I've noticed this over and over again they always describe these people as having the perfect life then they'll go on and describe the life and a lot of times you'll think well wait a minute they had the perfect life he was you know a successful biology teacher you know she was a stay -at -home mom they had a small lake house they had it all you know but lurking behind the american dream was american tragedy and i think they love to set it up as they had it all and i think americans and probably this probably is worldwide or it may be unique to america we love to think that this person quote had it all and the shorthand for that i think a lot of times is that you know there's It's this white couple that owned three cars and a boat, and they lived in a house with more than three bathrooms in it.

[485] They had it all.

[486] And that shows no understanding of mental illness.

[487] Just, you know, just domestic abuse.

[488] Domestic abuse.

[489] A substance abuse.

[490] It shows no understanding of any of that.

[491] And so they love to start with that.

[492] And someone could literally be almost homeless.

[493] And these shows will say, they had it all.

[494] He had a sternocan and he had a hot dog.

[495] And he had one shoe.

[496] He was living the American dream.

[497] Because he had three cars.

[498] Right.

[499] Everyone thought he slept in three cars.

[500] He didn't own.

[501] But then it all went sour when he strangled someone.

[502] Well, okay.

[503] You know, to me, that is the, that is the trope they keep.

[504] handing us over and over again and that we seem to love, and I think it's why the John Bonnet case is huge, why initially, you know, the, there was so much shot in Freudo with the Sharon Tate murders at first because everyone thought, well, this beautiful movie star and the wife of this great director, Roman Polanski, and, you know, this this hairstylist to the stars and these rich people are all butchered so it must be their fault and it must be they had it all but of course they were doing having drug fueled orgies and a drug dealer paid them back and it's so heartbreaking to watch the footage of polanski this is when everyone still believed that long before anyone dotted the eyes and crossed the teas and which led to charles manson and his family they're all he's there saying that was not Sharon that was not her she didn't do drugs she was pregnant she was incredibly good and he's telling them all and you know the press kind of isn't buying it because they're like well yeah you just did rosemary's baby you people are sick right and this is and and um it was a refusal to believe in the sad randomness of at all at all well and also that does sorry but that doesn't sell enough magazines either the story as they were trying to sell it is the combination of a celebrity magazine and like pulp horror magazine it's like it's the perfect story the way they were telling it in that way whereas like do you like celebrities that have orgies and do a ton of drugs also are you interested in murder well this has everything instead of like this is huge this is massive human loss i wonder if there's part of it too with those people who have everything and get it taken away which is why the stories are so good is that we you know kind of love to see those people get everything you know we love to see the downfall because it makes us feel better about our not having everything lives.

[505] You want to say, there's part of people that want, you know, that want to say, like, with a, with a Klaus von Buehlo, Sonny von Buello, okay, I may not have what they have.

[506] And they have so much, but look what that leads to.

[507] Yes.

[508] So I'm content with what I have.

[509] And that's why I say it.

[510] There's this shout on Friday to, you know, almost, you know, it's, you know, it's.

[511] I mean, it's ancient.

[512] It goes back to one of the most famous murders of all time is Caesar.

[513] And Caesar's, you know, Caesar is one of the most famous conquerors of all time.

[514] And he's stabbed by all of his friends in the Senate and stabbed by one of his best friends and dies.

[515] And it's like one of the most, it's a very well, considering that it happened almost 2 ,000 years ago, it's such a well documented murder and it really was well look out for you know if you fly that high and you try and become too powerful that's what happens there's almost a comfort that I think people take from it yeah then you're sitting on your little plaid couch and you're you know like watching a special on it and you're like I'm fine I don't want to fly that high I'm good I cannot have a plaid cal I would never have a plaid carpeting and you know it if you have a plaid couch out there I will mind coming to more you But you're less likely statistically to be murdered if you own a plaid couch Did you know that?

[516] Is that true?

[517] No, but what if it was?

[518] That'd be the best.

[519] I wonder if there's...

[520] Can I say if I was a celebrity and, you know, an affable people...

[521] And you are?

[522] Let's say I'm an affable celebrity.

[523] Okay, let's go with that.

[524] And I start just murdering on a massive scale.

[525] Does that put me on...

[526] That puts me in the books, doesn't it?

[527] Some kind of record book?

[528] Do you want to be in that record book?

[529] No, I don't want to be or do.

[530] He just pulled a knife out.

[531] Just like the police are like, they're putting up pictures of me and they're like, this is Conan.

[532] We all know who he is.

[533] This is not a joke.

[534] He's out there.

[535] We think he's headed to Topeka.

[536] Nope, he's headed north and I'm just going on a spree.

[537] What about instead if you just start showing up to crime scenes before the cops get there, let's pretend you have a scanner and it works.

[538] Oh, I have a scanner.

[539] Leave your, okay.

[540] Leave some of your hair at the crime scene so they can tie you to it.

[541] Trust me, my hair is everywhere.

[542] I have a lot of it, and I leave it everywhere.

[543] You know, I have another theory alongside your Schrodenfreude theory, and mine is, because this is just my personal interest aspect, is I want to see, it's Scooby -Doo.

[544] I will call it the Scooby -Doo theory, is I want to see the monster among us unmasked.

[545] So, like, on those datelines, when it turns out to be the doctor husband, who is there on dateline to tell you he didn't do it with his weird dead eyes and his lack of affect in any way, And you're like, it's clearly him.

[546] Like, you're getting weird cold chills through the TV because you can tell this person's not right.

[547] And they are a socio or psychopath.

[548] We could debate the term that's supposed to be used.

[549] But they clearly don't, they think they're smarter than everybody.

[550] So they know it's fine that they go on this TV show because they're going to dictate reality.

[551] And that's the life they've always lived.

[552] To me, that's the most fascinating one.

[553] And that's sometimes why I am cheering for it to be this person that, oh, that's so sad if he's being maligned but also it would be amazing if it's him because the double life leading a double life and the second life being you being a total monster I think is so fascinating so for example Jeffrey McDonald the Green Beret you guys are both like he did that I think so yeah they've come out a million times different ways that he didn't do it and I think no but I don't understand it right I honestly don't understand it I don't understand what you know what gets you to killing your wife and children like that.

[554] I mean, but we see it all the time.

[555] It's really simple.

[556] It's these people.

[557] You know, it's the thing of like...

[558] You think it's just they're too tightly wound and then they snap?

[559] No, and I think actually the word, I think that we call it snapping, but it's not fair to the victims who would testify that, no, he was always this narcissist, he was always controlling.

[560] It wasn't him snapping.

[561] It was him, like, you know, still having control over people over his life, and he didn't want to be in this marriage anymore.

[562] He didn't want these kids anymore.

[563] Right.

[564] had other fucking ideas and plans and affairs.

[565] You know, this makes me so crazy when so many murders, so many murders are a guy who, yeah, you know, I met this, I met this girl at the bank and she's really hot, and I've got this wife and kids.

[566] And, well, only one thing to do.

[567] Yeah.

[568] Murder them all.

[569] And I think, wait a minute, I have another idea.

[570] You go to your wife and you say, we got a problem.

[571] You know, and you go through a messy divorce.

[572] And I know that that's terrible for me to say.

[573] But guess what?

[574] It's so much better than I'm going to commit murder and 20 % chance I get away with it.

[575] That's why I don't think it's snapping.

[576] I don't think it's snapping.

[577] I think that person in his entire life has done what he wants and does what he needs to get his way.

[578] So that's, you know, it's the thing that you and I can't believe because we're not like that.

[579] Or I'm pretending not to be able to do.

[580] Right.

[581] You're doing great.

[582] Oh, yeah, that's right.

[583] but you're eventually going to reveal.

[584] Listen, I am very good at putting on the affect of someone who really understands what you're saying and is appalled.

[585] It's the hand gestures that work for me. But I am using these hand gestures that show that I'm a creep.

[586] Everyone was going to say, we would have never suspected Conan.

[587] Listen, is it possible that I came on this podcast to talk in -depth and insensitive way about murder to use that as evidence later on when I murder?

[588] Yes.

[589] And you two will come in and you'll be like, no, no, no, no. He talked in a very sensitive way about murder.

[590] No. Or did he?

[591] Oh, did he?

[592] Your Honor, I want to go on the record.

[593] I always thought he was a creep.

[594] I think he fucking did it.

[595] I will testify against you immediately.

[596] I'll flip.

[597] As a sociopath, I think you're both in love with me. Yeah.

[598] And you won't flip on me. There's a murder case that I became enthralled with and I actually be, I took it to the next level, which was when I was a writer on Senate Live, there was this America's Most Wanted that came out, and it was for John List.

[599] Yes.

[600] And John List, the best.

[601] Famously, John List is this guy who had, I think, probably a problematic marriage.

[602] He had all these kids.

[603] He was very sort of fundamentalist, orthodox, religious.

[604] And he really, he bought this massive, mansion in New Jersey and couldn't really afford it, then lost his job.

[605] He's having trouble.

[606] He's worried that his daughter is becoming sexually active.

[607] He's worried about his kids and losing control of his family.

[608] He pretends to go to work every day.

[609] This is the part that I, that's so eerie.

[610] He gets up every morning.

[611] He's lost his job, but he goes to the train station and he eats a sandwich and reads books and then comes home at night after his quote, long, hard day of work.

[612] And the whole time he's doing it, no money's coming in.

[613] The debt's rock.

[614] and he starts to think of this plan.

[615] So what he does is he gets a gun and then he starts his morning by getting up, killing his mother, who lived in, I think, on the attic, kills his wife, then waits one by one for his kids to come home and kills them all, shoots them, and then drags all the bodies in the living room, drives to the airport, I think he drives to JFK Airport, takes off, this is before there are like digital records of where, you're going and you don't need to show an ID.

[616] Real casual airport time.

[617] This is back, yeah, long in the old days.

[618] Good old days when a murderer could really leave space.

[619] And he leaves, and it's such a creepy story because nobody knows.

[620] He had written notes to the school saying I'm taking the kids out of school.

[621] So slowly, it's getting closer and closer to Christmas.

[622] The lights start to go out in the house because they burn out and people notice it.

[623] And then finally, policemen are called, they break in.

[624] And the eerieest thing is that there was a sound system in this big mansion that was playing sort of like, imagine Bach kind of funereal, weird, you know, not weird, but creepy to hear at night, orchestral funereal music.

[625] And the cops break in and it's dark in there and they hear this music and they come in and they see all the bodies lined up.

[626] He's nowhere to be found.

[627] So America's Most Wanted does a, they do like a sculpture of what he would look like today.

[628] It turns out to be very accurate.

[629] Someone sees it and says, that's my neighbor.

[630] They arrest him.

[631] He has married again.

[632] And this is 20 some odd years later, maybe 25 years later.

[633] He married again.

[634] He was starting to have trouble with her.

[635] As they will.

[636] They arrest him.

[637] He denies it until they see these identifying.

[638] scars.

[639] So they put them on trial in New Jersey.

[640] I'm a writer on Cernet Live.

[641] And I hear about this and I'm just electrified by this story.

[642] So in my downtime at S &L, I start driving to the courthouse.

[643] No. Yes.

[644] Are you serious?

[645] There's no downtime at SML?

[646] Yes, there is, actually.

[647] It's called summer.

[648] Wait a second.

[649] Were you pretending to have a job at S &L and leave every morning and go to the courthouse and eat your sandwich there?

[650] Yes, exactly.

[651] And then I would come back and And my girlfriend at the time was like, there's no money coming in from S &A.

[652] And I was like, no, it's over for you.

[653] And then she killed me because she was stronger.

[654] But no, I went to the trial.

[655] And I watched, because I was staring at this guy.

[656] And I was looking at John List.

[657] And I was staring at this guy.

[658] And I'm trying to see the evil.

[659] You want to see it.

[660] I wanted to see it.

[661] And you know what?

[662] Completely uninteresting.

[663] Yeah.

[664] A schlub.

[665] A guy who, I mean, I don't.

[666] There was no there there.

[667] There was nothing there that satisfied me. And so I watched the trial for a bit, and he just sat there and then proceeded to be found, obviously, guilty of this, you know, multiple murder.

[668] There's no death penalty.

[669] So he's sentenced to life in prison.

[670] He later dies, but he gives a lot of interviews afterwards.

[671] And he just says, no, you know, I'll see them in heaven and we'll all talk it out.

[672] He thinks he did them a favor, too, right?

[673] His rationale was they're going to go to hell if they keep going the way they're going.

[674] So I'm doing them a favor by murdering them.

[675] Yeah.

[676] But that was just, I mean, and I also drove to the site of the house, which had burned down after the murders, no one, I don't think, would live in the house.

[677] So it burned down, because kids just used to break into it and get high.

[678] So it burned down, and then they built a new house there.

[679] So I went to the site of the, and this is before you could Wikipedia stuff.

[680] This is before you could use Google Maps.

[681] I, like, found where the house was.

[682] So I'm a creep.

[683] Tell the addendum to the story.

[684] I was going to say, I think this is the lifeblood of being interested in stuff like this.

[685] It's almost like we know these secret dirty stories, and there's only a handful of us that want to talk about it.

[686] So that when we're talking, It's just like the entire time It was so hard not to Basically sing it along with you Because it's like I did this story on our podcast I know every word he's saying Oh and you know it's the great Oh Henry irony Yeah I was gonna tell you The Tiffany Yeah So he's in debt That's it You can't out murder us And there's a well I'm doing pretty well I mean you did go to the court There's this yeah You have that Hey guess what I didn't see you guys there Hey But yeah There was a Tiffany original Tiffany Skylight which if he had known that he could have sold it and been out of debt and actually you know more than out of debt he would have had a he would have had a nice profit if that was in a script they'd be like you have to take that part out it's too cheesy it's too simple what they would do is at the end they would just have at the end of the story they would have everyone's cleaning up the crime scene and that's interesting what's up Bub what are you doing that skylight so what big deal Well, that's a Tiffany.

[687] Yeah, so what are you saying?

[688] That's worth over $140 ,000.

[689] Really?

[690] Well, you owed 20.

[691] That's why he killed everyone.

[692] Yeah.

[693] Real shame.

[694] Slow pan out to the ceiling.

[695] Pan up through the skylight.

[696] The box song.

[697] To heaven.

[698] This is what I love, though, about he was this boring guy who you couldn't see the eel in him, which I love.

[699] I'll be at a grocery store or like a party and lean to my husband who is not into murder at all and be like, who here do you think killed?

[700] someone because chances are for in a room 100 people someone someone once which random person that looks totally normal do you think it is and it's just like I don't know it's like electrifying to me that that's like that's what that's really what humanic looks like what what if that person is your husband then he's the last person anyone would suspect too which means he did it is mr cool and nice yeah murderer that's the way I would play it casual hands I'm just saying There's some serious casual hands Who won't kill Lincoln One of the most acclaimed actors of our day John Wilkes Booth Let him into the box He'll be okay That's like if George Clooney shot the president And then ran away Yeah So I mean I think it's terrifying to us That you know That these people can Seem so normal You know And then later on You're looking for this reason And everyone's looking for this chip and they never get it.

[701] Like, no, but what's the ingredient?

[702] And there isn't one.

[703] Yeah.

[704] There's no one little thing that you can identify that shows up on a cat scan.

[705] Yep, you got that.

[706] You're a murderer.

[707] There's not.

[708] Except if you hit your head as a kid a lot, then maybe.

[709] It's very common.

[710] Yeah.

[711] Well, then Jerry Lewis would have been a murderer.

[712] We don't know.

[713] He wasn't.

[714] We don't know.

[715] I trailed him for a while in the 70s.

[716] I did see some suspicious activity.

[717] Before us, no. Now, do you know, whether or not it's of interest of you, I'm not sure, but people who listen to our podcast have decided to call themselves murderinos, which is actually a word that was taken from The Simpsons.

[718] Oh, I didn't know that.

[719] Yes.

[720] Somebody saw it in, I think it's a Halloween episode of The Simpsons.

[721] Ned Flanders comes over and he's like, hi, how we have.

[722] I was going to say it has to be Ned Flanders because he adds Enoes to everything.

[723] And so they call themselves that.

[724] I'm just saying it seems to be fateful.

[725] That's true.

[726] That you are actually one.

[727] There would be of the Simpsons writers that I knew back in the day, I haven't written there in a long time, there would be a number of them that would be murderophiles.

[728] Just, you know, and when you're in a writer's room, you're constantly, as you know, you're constantly looking for, can we talk about something other than the script we're supposed to be breaking?

[729] Yes.

[730] Can we please?

[731] So if someone brings up a murder.

[732] and people have theories, that will take precedence over how do we get BART out of this ice cream shop at this year?

[733] It's way, way more interesting to talk about.

[734] All I want to talk about is theory.

[735] Like, all I want to talk about is cold cases and theories.

[736] And I don't, I want to hear everyone's theory.

[737] I don't think I'm right ever.

[738] It's just the most fun conversation to me, especially because nobody wants to have it with you except a few of your select friends and people you know.

[739] There was a good, I mean, I was obsessed with the JFK assassination as a long as a kid.

[740] And then this book was written called Case Closed, and I'll think of the author in a second, but it came out in 1993, and it did me such a favor because I read it and it's so logical.

[741] And when you read it, and this is going to get people angry because you cannot reason with conspiracy theorists.

[742] And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but you read it and it shows you, case closed, oh, there could only be one answer.

[743] There is one answer, which is Lee Harvey Oswald.

[744] He worked in the book Depository before there was even a plan to go to Texas, before there was any itinerary.

[745] And conspiracy theorists would say, well, that's because 800 people in the Pentagon got him into the...

[746] No, they did.

[747] No. They didn't.

[748] He's a violent person.

[749] He buys a rifle.

[750] He had a history of trying to kill, you know, a right wing, a political leader.

[751] And he has a history of being this erratic, troubled person.

[752] And, you know, A goes to B goes to C. And it's not super hard shooting as everyone says it is.

[753] And so that's going to get a lot of people saying, well, wait a minute, you've been.

[754] fooled by the establishment and everything, but I don't know, Posen, what's his name?

[755] I think his name is Posen, just wrote this great book called Case Close.

[756] And if you read it, and he says in the beginning, I wanted to crack this and find the murder because then I'd be really rich and famous.

[757] And the conclusion I came to against what I wanted to find was that there's no other explanation.

[758] What do you think is like is scarier or more like earth -shattering to you that it's just this one fucking little bitch was able to change the trajectory of our entire fucking lives for generations and generations?

[759] We don't want that to be true.

[760] It'd be so much better if there was this insane background, like, you know, this insane conspiracy because we just don't want to think that this fucking asshole did that, you know, was able to do this.

[761] History always turns on the slightest little flap of a butterfly's wing, you know?

[762] And I think that's something we are very uncomfortable with.

[763] Very uncomfortable with the idea that Lee Harvey Oswald with that really crappy rifle.

[764] No real assassin would buy that rifle with a bad telescopic sight, you know, and happens to work that building and, oh, the president's going by.

[765] I don't even think there's no evidence he had animosity towards Kennedy.

[766] It was just an opportunity.

[767] Well, what's also crazy is there's so many, it makes you realize that, say, if that author is right, or if that really is the ultimate truth, we'll never know.

[768] But because there are so many conspiracy theories, because if you analyze anything, there's always the lady in the polka dot dress somewhere.

[769] There's always, not just a red herring, but like an entirely feasible theory that's standing there waiting, that anyone can develop.

[770] You know, I have a theory that if you put enough attention on any small event, you can start to, let's take tonight, for example, I was eating at a restaurant nearby, thought I was much closer than I was, and I'm always on time.

[771] I'm a punctual person, very punctual, and I'm doing your podcast, I don't want to be rude, but I'm in this restaurant, and I'm with two friends of mine who work at the show, and I thought we were right next door to where we taped the podcast, because I've been here before, and we leave, and then we're, but we're late.

[772] And so, let's say something of historic significance happened right now with the three of us.

[773] It is.

[774] Yeah, exactly.

[775] It's happening.

[776] Wow.

[777] Sociopath.

[778] But if you started to break it down I'm sorry I think you killed Karen Yeah But no if you start to break it down I'd be like Wait a minute Conspiracy theorists would say like Conan was 10 minutes late He said he was You know He was late because he didn't realize How far away Earwolf Studios was Conan's taped at Earwolf many times And we know historically he's always on time And he's on time But wait a minute He's been at Earwolf So then that's the thing And then it's wait a minute You know, isn't that weird that, and then you start to break it down, like pick 15 random things.

[779] Why did he bring his head writer and his digital guy that night?

[780] You wouldn't need them for the podcast what was going on.

[781] And then you start to go more into it, which is why were you wearing that watch?

[782] You wear a lot of, but why that one tonight?

[783] You can start to tease apart anything.

[784] And that is what humans do.

[785] our brains are very good humans at finding patterns.

[786] The only problem is we're really good at finding patterns that aren't there.

[787] And that's where a lot of, wait a minute, there were nine people in Dealey Plaza with blowdarts and mortar shells and 35 different rifles.

[788] And I mean, if you look at Oliver Stone's movie, what he's really kind of positing at the end involves about, seven hundred and fifty people yes all of them goes all the way to the top all of whom would be instantly famous and rich right they went on op -red any time in the 80s and said okay here's what happened any of their children their spouses anyone like they would eventually deathbed confession all of all of well however though you have to admit sirhan sirhan a straight up fucking ms 13 mind control right uh i don't know i listened to that i was to the podcast on on that one and I think you don't I mean I don't buy that no and I he was in the kitchen at the ambassador he fired the gun and then admitted to it has a diary that says RFK must die and if they've managed to make a conspiracy theory out of that which involves him being a robot yes which interestingly involves the plot of a Frank Sinatra movie almost to the letter.

[789] You think they'd give a robot a better name.

[790] Which implicates Frank Sinatra, by the way.

[791] That son of a bitch should be going down.

[792] Fuck that guy.

[793] Let's watch the language, please.

[794] Would you stop calling out my fucking language?

[795] I think also what's interesting is these days because of social media and there's so many, it's almost like all the conspiracy there's are together on message boards now, disproving each other.

[796] Because to me, that's what most of all of the true crime talk on any of those kind of websites are now a Reddit or whatever it's people going well here's this theory and trying to pass that along and people just being like boom boom boom and having the proof and here's the year book here's the year here's the police report and that's there's all these people that are now acting like they work for police departments because they can just go through files and they have the access it's fascinating so it's almost like curtailing some of that I hope so because I you know we live in this you know it's Occam's Razor the most obvious answer is usually the right one and I think we have this need that that's too obvious so there's a reason you know what's interesting to me is that the police detectives real season detectives they're usually working off of probability so they know when a when a we've all heard the 911 calls where a husband's like, I just came home, my wife, I mean, I don't understand, my wife.

[797] And when they get there, they know that, now sometimes this is to the detriment of solving the crime, but the overwhelming majority of the time is they're working off of, you know what, I've done this a thousand times.

[798] And so we really need to drill down on this guy first and eliminate him because 85 % chance it's this guy and he has a story about a guy dressed as Santa Claus coming down the chimney with a machine gun and he just got home and he was decided to go and get a hamburger at three in the morning which he never does drill down on that guy and work off of statistics first and I think that's why season detectives are so good at most of the time I mean we've gotten past the day of like the, as you said earlier, like the Lindberg kidnapping where the police and the press show up at the exact same time.

[799] And everyone's walking around, smoking cigarettes, filming it, touching everything.

[800] Touching everything.

[801] And Charles Lindberg is saying, I'm taking charge of this case.

[802] And people so respect Charles Lindberg that they let him.

[803] And it's just a mess.

[804] Yeah.

[805] I also think it's interesting the maybe reversal of that which is those experienced detectives that when they come face to face with a true psychopath don't recognize it because they're a perfect cloaking animal that those they're like we don't like him for it doesn't give he doesn't make the hair on the back my neck stand up whatever where it comes back It's the Ted Bundy effect Yes or then the opposite is that is then the husband isn't grieving that the way that they expect someone to grieve and so they look at the or they look at the husband you know as the person who did it he's not crying right well that's also i mean that's disturbing when people have to mourn a certain way or you're a murderer unfortunately i mean they are most the time those people and then when you look at the shows later on it's chilling to see the footage when later on when when they've later on confessed and they've they're in they're doing a life sentence And they finally say, yeah, I did it.

[806] And you go back and you look at them saying, I just want her back.

[807] Yeah.

[808] I know she's out there.

[809] Steffi, if you can hear me, it's, you look at them and you think I'm, you know, that's, how do you do that?

[810] But I feel if you've ever taken like a scene class in North Hollywood, you see that acting and you're like, no, no, no, no, this isn't real.

[811] Because it's, no one is that good of an actor unless.

[812] Excuse me. I was trained in North Hollywood.

[813] Excuse me. That is why I'm confronted.

[814] you right now.

[815] I took those classes to become a murder.

[816] To become the murderer that you want to be so badly.

[817] They were always saying, don't you want to, do you have a headshot?

[818] I don't need it.

[819] I just need to learn how to say, Who's Steffy?

[820] Come home.

[821] Who's Steffy?

[822] That's not the play we're doing.

[823] Why did you file your fingerprints off too?

[824] That's real creepy.

[825] All of this is so odd.

[826] It's so creepy.

[827] Changing your face into a smooth surface.

[828] I think that's why I hate 911 calls so much.

[829] It's just the acting is so bad.

[830] When it's someone that's guilty and pretending, it's just the most cringing, horrifying, like, people don't act like that when they're truly in panic.

[831] Right.

[832] And I love acting.

[833] I'm dying to do a thing of where we play, you know, three 911 calls of a husband, and two of them didn't do it and one did.

[834] And can we fucking tell which one didn't do it.

[835] I'm not the swearing.

[836] Listen, I'm so offensive.

[837] I'm about to leave and consult with my priest.

[838] No, but I think that would be.

[839] Who was also here?

[840] He was at dinner with you.

[841] He's busy writer.

[842] He's busy murdering.

[843] No, that would be chilling because we'd all get it wrong.

[844] Totally.

[845] And, you know, I think, I mean, imagine being on the jury of a murder case.

[846] You would, and knowing that it must be so hard because unless, and I'm guessing if you're in that experience and the person clearly did it.

[847] But what a responsibility to have to look at.

[848] people and say, no, they're lying.

[849] And so I will help you either be put to death or go to life for prison.

[850] And we know it comes down a lot of times to who can afford a good defense attorney.

[851] You know, it's like who has a, is a prosecutor better than the defense attorney?

[852] Because that's, that's going to decide it more than did you actually fucking do it.

[853] Excuse me. Did you actually do it?

[854] I really am.

[855] I didn't realize.

[856] It's pretty standard, actually.

[857] I didn't realize we're in the Navy.

[858] Oh, we are.

[859] I am.

[860] It's very upsetting.

[861] I am.

[862] This is the podcast enlisting with Karen and Georgia.

[863] We should have told you earlier.

[864] If the Marines were in town, okay.

[865] Sorry.

[866] He's so mad at you.

[867] I know.

[868] I am.

[869] I need to, hold on, I'm going to, I have a little, these oils that help me from fainting.

[870] I have the vapors.

[871] I have a little fan.

[872] Swering is upsetting, vicious murder.

[873] Oh, my God.

[874] Knifes through the eyes.

[875] You're there.

[876] Yeah, I'm there.

[877] Yeah.

[878] I'm there for murder, but I'm sorry.

[879] Swearing me. I will not have it.

[880] Too far.

[881] That is not how I raised both of you.

[882] Wait, what?

[883] It's another sick fantasy I have.

[884] When you told the story of John List and you working on SNL, I thought...

[885] He was a really good gag writer, by the way.

[886] He just would come up with stuff so fast.

[887] I thought in my mind I began to see a sketch, like one of those fake commercials of something that had to do with that spinning head because I saw that happen real.

[888] time on America's last one.

[889] They made a three -dimensional wax head.

[890] The clay head.

[891] And it was so, it's such a specific visual.

[892] You didn't ever do anything with that.

[893] Did you?

[894] No, we didn't do an, I never did anything with that.

[895] Maybe someone else did.

[896] Okay.

[897] I was fascinated by that that they and then it worked.

[898] Yeah.

[899] Really worked.

[900] They came up with this is what he should look like.

[901] And a neighbor said, guess what?

[902] That's Gary.

[903] Yeah.

[904] Yeah.

[905] That's Gary.

[906] That's Gary.

[907] And he's our local murderer.

[908] He calls himself on Ist and that's John Liz.

[909] That's totally.

[910] That was dumb.

[911] I am on Gitch.

[912] It's me. He couldn't be John List.

[913] No way.

[914] Should we do a fucking array?

[915] Excuse me. That's actually the name of the segment.

[916] We always close the show with a thing that we're really happy about.

[917] Oh, yeah.

[918] So we try to do the positive version of just anything to counteract the story.

[919] When we tell two murder stories in a row, then we feel like it's a good idea to kind of mention something that you're stoked about that's not death.

[920] Yeah.

[921] Do you think you have one of those?

[922] Does anything bring you joy?

[923] You can go third if you want to think about it.

[924] I'm going to just mention, and this is, it just came to me. But I've got this new podcast.

[925] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend, and you can just get it anywhere where podcasts are free, and you swipe up.

[926] And there's no murder on this podcast, but it's a lot of fun, and I think you'll enjoy it.

[927] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend, available wherever podcasts are free.

[928] How is going to be my fucking hooray, is your podcast.

[929] And also, I try to keep the swearing to a minimum on the podcast.

[930] Good luck with that.

[931] Good luck with your podcast.

[932] Good luck keeping your podcasts alive.

[933] Guess what?

[934] The original name was Conan O 'Brien needs a fucking friend.

[935] I think you would have done better.

[936] I think you're right.

[937] I'd like to say a fucking hurry this week for my favorite new podcast.

[938] Conan O 'Brien has no friends, which is this funny little thing this guy's doing.

[939] He's short.

[940] He's got dark hair.

[941] Really?

[942] He's the opposite of me. He's the literal opposite of you.

[943] of cartoon style.

[944] He's Brian Conando, the opposite of Conan O 'Brien?

[945] Yeah.

[946] That's him and he just kind of talks.

[947] What's the opposite of Irish?

[948] I mean, he doesn't say a word.

[949] To himself.

[950] Yeah, he talks to himself.

[951] He just mutters and he, but he's very sexually liberated.

[952] That's right.

[953] There's no repression issues.

[954] He loves cursing.

[955] Single way.

[956] I don't know.

[957] I just, I think most humans are good.

[958] I'm going to say that seriously.

[959] I do think most humans are good.

[960] Most humans don't murder.

[961] It's the, it's the tiny, minority of us that do murder and I think most people respect human life and I think I mean that's something don't you think that's something we should end on as a positive 100 % let's hold on to that yes you know sorry let's fucking hold on to that because I think that's let's hold on of that fucking that's fucking right what does that mean I want to say mine this week for real is I just watched yet another cochleal ear implant video where a baby no not the operation happening.

[962] Oh.

[963] The baby for the first time hears its mother's voice.

[964] Right.

[965] I'm telling you, you line up like four of those and you'll be good to go for the day.

[966] Yeah, you'll be crying, but it's the most beautiful, like, and maybe that does kind of circle back to podcasting, but it's the human voice, the effect it has on babies and people who haven't heard anything is the, it's so magical to watch someone experience that for the first time.

[967] That's beautiful.

[968] It's really good, and I invented it.

[969] That's my idea That's beautiful I think the only thing That I can top that with Is if you see a really good Colombo With Peter Fogg From the 70s Truly, one more thing I mean I would watch that over Oh look I can hear And he did it with a freaking glass eye And just jacked up teeth Oh exactly That's true No one else can do that these days I'm sorry I didn't mean to say I'm sure your thing is moving too With the kids in the hearing I mean, maybe you're into...

[970] But Pierre Fopp, when he's on his game.

[971] Your one -up and shit thing is I'm sure it's great on your podcast.

[972] Listen, what I like to do is challenge people and make them, you know, feel bad about their choices.

[973] That's my podcast.

[974] Oh, cool, cool.

[975] Well, we're sociopath, so good luck with that.

[976] There's a chance one of you will murder me. I'm just trying to figure out.

[977] It's going to be, I don't know.

[978] One, two, three, not it.

[979] Oh.

[980] Oh, that'll get you out.

[981] Sure.

[982] What if that held up in court?

[983] Yeah.

[984] Oh, no. Your honor.

[985] I want to talk to, which if you're not it.

[986] Well, we find no choice.

[987] We must let you go.

[988] Wait, should we give him the sociopath test?

[989] You may have heard of this already.

[990] Okay, I'm ready to go.

[991] Which, I don't know.

[992] Oh, great.

[993] I'll probably fail because I'm in entertainment business.

[994] That's true.

[995] That's true.

[996] A woman goes to a funeral.

[997] Yes.

[998] I don't think I got this right yet.

[999] A woman goes to a funeral.

[1000] It's like a family member.

[1001] And there she sees a very attractive man. And she doesn't get his, I think we're so.

[1002] who's a pass for not remember.

[1003] And she doesn't get his info.

[1004] A month later, another member of her family dies, and they're at the funeral together again.

[1005] How did the family member die?

[1006] How is this a test?

[1007] I don't know.

[1008] I'm just more...

[1009] This is a test of us telling stories.

[1010] You guys are terrible.

[1011] Thank you.

[1012] This is your specialty.

[1013] Right.

[1014] Is describing crime and murder.

[1015] Yep.

[1016] So wait a minute.

[1017] Let me see if I can do this.

[1018] Okay.

[1019] someone has lost a family member right they go to the funeral yes and there's this handsome person there the next time they go they see that they've lost someone else who's also from their family yes yes okay maybe and they see that same person that person that they're seeing is in the casket that person is dead no no it's not great it's really not a great i don't get this the wording is But essentially, it's the sociopath test because they said people who are sociopaths will get it immediately and they'll go, oh, they killed their other family members so they could meet that person again.

[1020] Oh, you didn't tell it right.

[1021] Yeah, I didn't tell it.

[1022] I've done this.

[1023] I've killed people to get closer to people.

[1024] And this doesn't count.

[1025] You know what?

[1026] I've looked into confessions in podcasts.

[1027] Admissible?

[1028] They're not admissible.

[1029] If it's a podcast, if it's a podcast that's popular with millennials, it's not admissible.

[1030] I feel used.

[1031] That's pretty cool, though.

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] No, I know I've done this.

[1034] You know your shit.

[1035] Nothing's cooler than being popular with millennials, though.

[1036] That's right.

[1037] Well.

[1038] They're all freelance.

[1039] Exactly.

[1040] They're all listening with their wool hats and their unicycles and their ukuleles.

[1041] Moustaches and razor scooters and they're eating their cashews.

[1042] I don't know why I said cashews.

[1043] It has no, doesn't apply at all.

[1044] They're delicious.

[1045] I think that was a, I think that was a plus.

[1046] wasn't it for your new cash you company?

[1047] Are you working for big cashew?

[1048] God damn it.

[1049] I'm in the pocket of big cash shoes.

[1050] Big null out.

[1051] Big nut.

[1052] Thank you for being on.

[1053] This was really fun.

[1054] Thank you for having me and I do mean it.

[1055] I'd like to come back because I murder has been ask anyone who knows me. It's the theme in my life.

[1056] I'm so surprised and I love that.

[1057] I love knowing that.

[1058] We would love to talk to you more because I feel like we barely scratch the surface.

[1059] I have so many murders we can talk about.

[1060] So that was a yes, yes, yes.

[1061] Yes, yes.

[1062] Okay, I'll be back.

[1063] I'll be back.

[1064] The sad thing will be when your listeners complain, why is Conan on for the ninth time?

[1065] Yes.

[1066] Come on.

[1067] That's awesome.

[1068] I'm cool with that.

[1069] You'd be our like, was it Bert Reynolds that was a regular on Carson?

[1070] So many people were regulars on Carson.

[1071] True.

[1072] Bert Reynolds, Buddy Hackett.

[1073] I'll be there, Buddy Hackett.

[1074] Okay.

[1075] Yeah, that suits you more.

[1076] Or you're George Siegel.

[1077] Oh.

[1078] Or you're Henry Winkler.

[1079] He didn't do it.

[1080] Come on.

[1081] Carson Daly.

[1082] Okay.

[1083] What?

[1084] Sorry.

[1085] We should say Carson.

[1086] It can be one of the two.

[1087] I did Carson nine times.

[1088] Wow, that's impressive.

[1089] Carson Daly.

[1090] Oh, cancel that.

[1091] Cancel it.

[1092] Okay.

[1093] Is that, are we wrapping it up?

[1094] I think so.

[1095] So, yeah.

[1096] You did your incredibly confusing riddle.

[1097] The test you failed.

[1098] It was a test in you.

[1099] No, no, no. You guys failed.

[1100] test because you couldn't tell it correctly.

[1101] You know, we all failed together.

[1102] We fell together.

[1103] I think that's the joy of podcast.

[1104] Yeah.

[1105] Stay sexy.

[1106] And don't get murdered.

[1107] Goodbye.

[1108] Goodbye.

[1109] Elvis, you want a cookie?

[1110] Good boy.