How Two Friends Beat Amazon and Built a Union

[0] From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bobaro.

[1] This is a daily.

[2] A year and a half ago, my colleagues, Jody Cantor and Karen Weiss, began examining labor practices at Amazon.

[3] In the process, they met two Amazon workers at a warehouse in New York, Chris Smalls and Derek Palmer, who had embarked on an improbable attempt to create the company's first union.

[4] Last week, they did it.

[5] Today, I spoke with Jody, Chris, and Derek about how, against all odds, that happened.

[6] It's Monday, April 11th.

[7] Chris and Derek, this is my colleague, Michael, who's the host of the day.

[8] Hi.

[9] I'm really grateful, because I know you guys are in the middle of what is perhaps the biggest moment of your lives that you made time to talk to us.

[10] Oh, absolutely.

[11] Thank you.

[12] Thank you, really.

[13] Is everybody good to go if we kind of, if we start?

[14] Yeah.

[15] We got to keep it, we got to keep it clean, too, right?

[16] I think if your, if your emotions take you someplace, you should follow your emotions.

[17] Okay.

[18] So, Chris and Derek, I want to start by asking you both about how you came to Amazon and to the JFK -8 warehouse in the first place.

[19] What was it that brought you both there?

[20] Well, I was employed for Amazon since 2015.

[21] I was an entry -level worker, got hired as a picker, warehouse associate, got promoted into process assistant my first year, opened up three facilities for Amazon.

[22] Wow.

[23] You know, JFK was actually my last facility.

[24] So I had to...

[25] at this point at this time i was um i was already you know a pa for over four years um trained hundreds of their employees trained management as well that was hired within the company and so i applied to relocate to jfkate which it didn't open yet it was still under construction so that was my plan to get into that building uh upon launch and i knew as a Having seniority, I should be able to pick my shift in the days and times that I'm supposed to work, especially opening up a new building.

[26] But I didn't get that opportunity.

[27] They threw me right on to the worst shift, which is 12 -hour RT shift.

[28] RT, which is reduced time.

[29] 12 hours, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

[30] They took my whole weekend away.

[31] And I live in New Jersey and didn't have a vehicle at the time.

[32] So my commute was two and a half hours, three hours each way.

[33] Wow.

[34] And then had to work a 12 -hour shift.

[35] So that's how I ended up at JFK -8.

[36] Derek, what about you?

[37] How did you come to JFK -A at this warehouse in Staten Island?

[38] Well, similar to Chris, you know, I started working at a facility EWR4.

[39] In New Jersey.

[40] In New Jersey, yes, Robertsville, New Jersey.

[41] So I started in July, 2015.

[42] I started off as a counter, so I would, like, count the inventory.

[43] Can I ask you, what did Amazon mean to you, to have landed a job back in 20, in Amazon.

[44] Oh, I mean, you know, at the time, you know, I was unemployed.

[45] I was doing like a lot of different temp jobs.

[46] And if it wasn't for my mother, honestly, wouldn't be at Amazon.

[47] So my mother told me about Amazon.

[48] Yeah, she told me about Amazon.

[49] So, you know, at the time, I didn't really know too much about it.

[50] I just knew that, you know, a lot of people were getting hired at these Amazon facility.

[51] And I said, you know what, let me just try it out and see what happens.

[52] So I thought that, you know, Amazon was having workers' like best interests.

[53] I thought they were just like, all right, you work hard, you move up.

[54] So immediately I, you know, adapt to that philosophy.

[55] And I just worked as hard as I could.

[56] You were going to move up.

[57] Yeah, that's, in my mind, I was like, you know what, I'm going to move up with this company.

[58] I'm going to excel because Amazon such a big name.

[59] So, unfortunately, you know, it didn't go that way.

[60] But, you know.

[61] What do you mean?

[62] It didn't go that way as far as, like, me getting promoted.

[63] Did you have a theory about why?

[64] At the time, I didn't know.

[65] I thought that I just had to just keep working hard and that I'll be able to get promoted.

[66] But what they did do is they offered me an ambassador position.

[67] So ambassador are basically workers who train other workers.

[68] So like all the new employees that get hired, it was my responsibility to train them.

[69] And Jody, how does all of that fit with your reporting on the company and how Amazon operates?

[70] So what Chris and Derek are describing is their experience, based on our reporting on Amazon, that's actually part of the company's design.

[71] Jeff Bezos intentionally created this system where the lower -level warehouse jobs were the lower -level warehouse jobs.

[72] Those were expected to have a tremendous amount of turnover.

[73] And then the management jobs in the warehouse or the corporate jobs in Seattle, those were totally separate.

[74] And rather than promote people from the warehouse jobs, those jobs he wanted to hire college graduates for.

[75] So while Karen Weiss and Greece Ashford and I were looking into this warehouse, JFK8, last year, we also discovered that Amazon has a shocking turnover rate.

[76] This is even before the pandemic, it's 150 % among warehouse workers.

[77] That's the equivalent of the warehouse workforce turning over every eight months.

[78] That's remarkable.

[79] So this experience that Chris and Derek are describing, it's actually not only common, but it's part of Amazon's whole business model.

[80] And that business model, from what you're saying, doesn't give people like Chris or Derek much of a shot of moving out of the warehouse.

[81] Exactly.

[82] We actually found out that one of the times Derek applied for a promotion, he was one of 382 people to apply for the job.

[83] Wow.

[84] That's how many people wanted it.

[85] Right, and just how little chance he had of getting a promotion.

[86] Exactly.

[87] So you're both, Chris and Derek, initially enthusiastic about Amazon.

[88] You see yourself as succeeding in your work, but you start to question that.

[89] It sounds based on your inability to rise.

[90] How does that work start to change at this warehouse as the pandemic hits?

[91] well um it was it was just uh the fact that we were in the dark we ain't know what the hell we was doing uh what was going on with the virus because we're watching it on the news and the company's doing something else okay so it was something off in there something off in the building with managers with communication and i'm like what the hell is going on here we're in the break room, sitting shoulder to shoulder, Derek to tell you, we were sitting there joking, we're all going to die because we're sitting shoulder to shoulder and we're watching CNN and they're telling us we need to be six feet apart with masks.

[92] Do you remember this?

[93] Yeah.

[94] Yep.

[95] What were you feeling in this moment?

[96] Same way.

[97] Like, I was scared.

[98] I'm like, the energy in the building was just like everyone was quiet and no one knew what the next steps were.

[99] We didn't know what Amazon plans work.

[100] So that was the energy that was going on at that time.

[101] And Jody, what is going on for Amazon at this moment?

[102] Well, here you have this massive warehouse.

[103] It's serving this huge market.

[104] It's serving New York City.

[105] And right as the pandemic is shutting everything down, Amazon is recognizing people want and need our services.

[106] And so what we're seeing is that right in this period of greatest fear and greatest uncertainty, when every American who can get sent, home is going home, Amazon is trying to figure out how to get its staff to work to meet this demand.

[107] Right.

[108] This historic demand of the low pandemic.

[109] Exactly.

[110] They feel that this is their moment.

[111] And like Chris and Derek are saying, there's a lot of confusion in the warehouse.

[112] Our reporting showed that the information Amazon was providing to workers at this point was pretty spotty.

[113] And workers in the warehouse really did not have a clear sense of what was going on with COVID cases in their own building.

[114] Did you try to get some clarity, Chris, from your bosses about kind of what is the landscape here?

[115] There's a virus, it's making people sick, what's my relationship to work now?

[116] Right.

[117] So, you know, as a supervisor, you know, I felt it was my responsibility to say something.

[118] So I went directly to HR just by myself asking questions.

[119] Like, you know, trying to do the right thing, but keep it, you know, in -house saying like, hey, look, what are we doing as far as COVID?

[120] like we're coming to work what are we going to do for people that have children at home schools are closing senior citizen at home etc their response was oh we're following the CDC guidelines you have nothing to worry about um if you want to leave you can leave because they were offering us no they were telling us that we can go home and no time would be deducted you won't you know you can go home if you don't want to but you're not being paid okay so you can you can go home, but you're not getting paid.

[121] Any money.

[122] And they had workers coming to work because obviously they need to pay their bills.

[123] And that's exactly what was happening.

[124] People were coming to work sick at the time.

[125] And Jody, what do you come to understand about how Amazon is communicating to employees?

[126] Well, the company was essentially contradicting itself.

[127] We have proof that they told people that they could have unlimited, unpaid time off.

[128] And at the same time, JFK8, this warehouse, is sending notification.

[129] to workers of mandatory overtime.

[130] Right, which is not at all consistent.

[131] Workers were just confused.

[132] So what do you do as your anxiety and it sounds like frustration is growing here?

[133] I just kept applying pressure on HR.

[134] Like, every day I would go in there and like, what are y 'all going to do?

[135] Until March 24th, when I came in the work and one of the supervisors that worked the front half of the week, she was walking around sluggish she had her own mask and I looked at I'm like yo what's going on what's up with you and then she was like I don't feel good I went to go get tested yesterday I said wait a second you got a test they let you they tested you and you're here right so I'm like wait a second in order and I was watching the news and then you know obviously they said in order to get the test you had to be showing severe symptoms bloodshot eyes, rosy cheeks.

[136] She was showing all of them symptoms.

[137] So I said, you probably need to go home as a friend.

[138] And the colleague, she did.

[139] She went right home.

[140] I said, I'll take care of your assignments.

[141] I'll do all your engagements.

[142] But she's already been there for several days in a row for 10 -hour shifts around hundreds of people.

[143] And she tested positive.

[144] Wow.

[145] And I was like, am I looking around like, am I crazy?

[146] Like, yo, I'm leaving.

[147] I'm clocking out.

[148] I'm going home.

[149] And that's exactly what I went right downstairs, got Derek, because I ride to work with him.

[150] It was like noon.

[151] I said, yo, we need to get out of here.

[152] You're just walking out.

[153] We walked out.

[154] Whoa.

[155] So the next day, I came back to work.

[156] Derek came with me. We went straight into the break room at 7 o 'clock.

[157] 6 o 'clock, 7 .15, and at the top of our lungs, we yelling around, yo, we need to do something in the break room, telling the work is like, somebody's been in here positive.

[158] And now workers are panicking, like, oh, my God, yeah, I've seen such and such sick.

[159] Oh, I don't feel good.

[160] Even somebody was like, yo, I'm sick right now.

[161] We had one woman that was like, I'm sick.

[162] Like, stay away from me. That's what she said.

[163] Like, stay away from me. And where in your mind, Chris, is this going at the time?

[164] What are you hoping is going and when you go in to tell other employees that there is COVID present in the warehouse?

[165] I wanted to just tell the truth and have workers, you know, have that information and stand with us because me and Derek, we marched into the general manager's office along with a group of 10 workers, 12 workers, 15 workers, every day.

[166] Every morning, he didn't even get a chance to sit down and have his morning meeting because we was at his door at 9 a .m. As soon as he got comfortable, We were like, nope, this is your voice of associate board right here.

[167] The VOA board is right here.

[168] You look around the room, you got women of color, you got women that were pregnant, women with small children, you got, you know, fathers, parents.

[169] We all just wanted the building to be closed and clean.

[170] So just to be clear, what you're asking for is a shutdown of the building because you know people have tested positive who are working inside of the warehouse.

[171] That's your request.

[172] Yeah.

[173] We just wanted to be closed for 14 days, incubation period, clean, and we would have came back to work.

[174] And we probably wouldn't be sitting here today.

[175] That's as far as you could see at that point.

[176] At the time, you know, at the time, that's all we wanted.

[177] Meanwhile, the virus is just getting worse and worse, spreading.

[178] And I had enough.

[179] I say, you know what?

[180] Everybody stayed back.

[181] And they stayed outside the General Mansors' office.

[182] I went in there by myself.

[183] And that was the last time I had a conversation with them because, I said, if y 'all don't close this building, there's going to be something done.

[184] And I didn't tell them, you know, I pretty much warned them about protests that I didn't even plan yet.

[185] I was just pretty much bluffing.

[186] But I said, you know what?

[187] Like, I would just say that to scare them a little bit to kind of make, give us a decision.

[188] And, yeah, their decision was to quarantine me the next day.

[189] Mm -hmm.

[190] You know, after I left the office on that Friday, we came back me and Derek next day at 7 a .m. to sit in again.

[191] And that's when, you know, Zach remarked at the time, he was just a senior ops.

[192] He came.

[193] Pretty senior official in the warehouse.

[194] Yeah, and he's like, I'm sorry, we're going to have to put you on quarantine.

[195] I said, yeah, I know.

[196] Yeah, Barbara's been positive.

[197] I know that.

[198] And I pointed it, like, what about Derek?

[199] I ride to work with him.

[200] What about you?

[201] I was like, oh, what about you?

[202] His answer was like, no, it's just you for right now.

[203] Now, that's when I was like, fuck that.

[204] I was like, no, I'm like, you know what, man. We saw an article about Upmore and it was Kentucky.

[205] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[206] Yeah, Kentucky did a walkout and their governor closed their warehouse.

[207] And I saw that in the article.

[208] I'm like, well, how the hell we can't get that?

[209] So that's when I said, all right, let's plan a walk out here.

[210] Hmm.

[211] And now the media started to call.

[212] I'm like, oh, all right, all right, I'm picking up, telling them like, yeah, at noon, March 30th, it's going down.

[213] And I just kept telling the media that over and over, yes, we're playing the walkout.

[214] How many people?

[215] And I knew the media wasn't going to come if I would have said, five people.

[216] So, of course I lied.

[217] Of course I lied.

[218] What did you say?

[219] 200.

[220] I said, there's about be 200 people outside.

[221] And I knew that it wasn't going to be.

[222] But I knew I checked the weather I played chess I checked the weather I was like oh it's going to be 60 degrees I know as an Amazon worker myself We outside eating lunch So I said the perception is everything And so what happens on the actual day of the walkout Oh wow On the day of the walkout We got up real early Because I don't even think I slept the night before I think I was like, slim, shady, mild spaghetti, and my stomach was turning.

[223] You know, Derek came to get me. It was like, we was going across the bridge, and I'm like, you know, in my head, I'm like, damn, we're about to do something.

[224] I don't even know what's going to look like.

[225] I don't know what's going to happen.

[226] Yeah.

[227] All these emotions are going through.

[228] And, you know, we get to the building, and I knew it was real when we saw a helicopter hovering.

[229] And we saw, like, a row of, media vans.

[230] I'm like, oh shit, yo, look what we did.

[231] That's what I said out there.

[232] Like, yo, look what we did, yo.

[233] So that gave me a little bit of confidence.

[234] And it was funny because when we first started at it might have been 12, 12 .30.

[235] You know, it takes five minutes to get to the time clock.

[236] So media was looking around like nobody's coming out and I seen it on their faces.

[237] I said, give me about five minutes.

[238] Today, workers at Amazon's Staten Island warehouse walked out demanding the facility be shut down and cleaned after a worker tested positive.

[239] Five minutes, see 60 workers, 50 workers, 100 workers coming out.

[240] Staten Island, Amazon workers walked out of the fulfillment center warehouse on Gulf Avenue.

[241] But it's really like the handful of us that's in the parking lot holding the signs.

[242] Dozens of workers walked out today over safety concerns about the spread of coronavirus, demanding the facility be closed for at least two weeks and sanitized.

[243] And then I was fired.

[244] I got fired the same day to walkout.

[245] They called me over the phone a few hours after the walkout, around like 4 .35.

[246] And what was the rationale for you being fired?

[247] What did the company say?

[248] I didn't give him a chance to finish.

[249] They didn't even get them really a chance to explain it.

[250] Jody, what do we come to learn is behind Amazon's decision to fire, Chris?

[251] Because it will turn out to feel quite fateful.

[252] So Amazon's official explanation, always has been and is to this day that Chris was violating quarantine.

[253] However, I'm going to read you text messages that were sent between two Amazon HR officials on the same day Chris was fired.

[254] They're saying things like, come on.

[255] They were social distancing as requested.

[256] It was a peaceful protest.

[257] His right to organize is protected.

[258] This is going to be perceived as retaliation.

[259] Not a good look.

[260] These are HR officials within Amazon expressing some real reservations about Chris being fired.

[261] Yes.

[262] They're saying, this is crazy.

[263] I don't even know what to say.

[264] So this is proof that even on that day, there were HR people at Amazon who thought this was a very bad idea.

[265] So then Amazon's chief counsel sends an email.

[266] In it, he describes Chris as not smart or articulate.

[267] He mistakenly sends the email to like a thousand people at Amazon.

[268] Wow.

[269] And what he's recommending in the email is that Chris become the face of all organizing in Amazon.

[270] So I just want to make sure I understand this.

[271] an Amazon executive, a senior executive, is saying in a very dismissive way, Chris, let's make you the face of all unhappy Amazon workers who might want to take their grievances public, because in his estimation, that will undermine their efforts.

[272] I have to ask how that felt to read that.

[273] I'm just, you know, obviously, I have the same nonchalant, cool, com collective attitude.

[274] But, you know, of course it infuriated me, you know, I just say, okay, noted, not smart or articulate, black man. You know, that's the stigma.

[275] That's how they try to stigmatize us.

[276] We're not smart enough to be on the same level.

[277] Derek, what are you thinking at this point when this email from company leadership goes around about, your friend.

[278] I was just appalled at that.

[279] Like, how can you guys sit down in the meeting?

[280] You know, you guys are making billions of dollars and you worried about Chris and he's only making, what, $25 an hour?

[281] So I just, I knew that they wanted to pretty much silence the whole efforts.

[282] Like anyone who spoke out, that's how they were going to treat them moving forward, including myself.

[283] So because you've held this walkout, you've been fired.

[284] this email has gone out about you that's pretty derogatory what happens next what do you decide to do at that moment that's when we decide to continue to advocate for workers we founded an organization the Congress of Essential Workers The Congress of Essential Workers Yeah and that was just you know at the time I'm getting emails from people from all over the country, Amazon workers, non -Amazon workers that just want to help advocate as well.

[285] So you being fired has turned you into a kind of magnet for lots of people.

[286] Right.

[287] And I just say, you know what?

[288] We need to form something that's going to just bring us in collectively as sort of like a coalition.

[289] And we formed this organization and we traveled the country starting in New York at Jeff Basil's mansions and penthouses that we can Google we couldn't find all of them obviously we missed a couple we missed the one in Miami but we started in New York and then we went to D .C. Then we went to Beverly Hills then we went to Seattle and then we at that time that's when they started to unionize in Bessemer.

[290] And Jody, remind us what's happening in Bessemer, Alabama at this moment.

[291] Well, it's an important period to note because it really seemed like Chris and Derek did not have a lot of momentum.

[292] They had had this initial burst of publicity around Chris's firing and the walkout, but that had really faded at this point.

[293] It just feels like the company has the upper hand.

[294] The pandemic is progressing.

[295] Americans are very reliant on Amazon.

[296] The company is reporting record gains, and it's hiring like crazy.

[297] Like, in three months, it scoops up 350 ,000 workers.

[298] That's equivalent to the population of St. Louis.

[299] There's almost no equivalent for that kind of hiring in American history.

[300] They're offering health care on day one and really solid wages.

[301] So the idea that the small band of workers are really going to be able to significantly challenge the company in the midst of all this, it seems really unlikely.

[302] But then, like Chris says, comes Bessemer.

[303] Right, which is this much more publicized and much more organized nationally led effort to unionize another Amazon warehouse in Bessemer.

[304] Yes, this one has the support of national labor groups and eventually some big -name politicians like Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez.

[305] And Chris and Derek, what are you thinking as you watch Bessemer start to heat up?

[306] up.

[307] I was like, okay, sure.

[308] I support it 100%.

[309] And I supported it so much that we decided to drive 16 hours down there and trust me. We have no attention on that.

[310] So when I went down there, I'm expressing to them like, I'm here as an actual worker, former worker, trying to make that bridge saying this is the reason why you need to sign up for the union.

[311] I thought that would be helpful to their efforts.

[312] Instead, they said, no, we want to do this to Alabama way.

[313] And I said, whatever the hell that means.

[314] What's the Alabama way?

[315] I don't know.

[316] But I know now what it is because they didn't allow us to rally.

[317] They barely wanted us to talk to workers.

[318] They told us like, you know, we don't really want you to talk to the workers because it's going to intimidate them even more because you got fired.

[319] It was frustrating because if you're an organizer, his story's a gold mine if you're talking to workers and convincing them why they need a union.

[320] It makes no sense for you to say that, oh, if you talk to these workers, they're going to be even more scared.

[321] Your job as an organizer is to lay his story into why it's important to have a union.

[322] They just didn't want anyone else, especially from the north, because the south and north for some reason, don't get along sometimes.

[323] So I felt like it was like, oh, you guys from New York, y 'all can leave.

[324] We don't need a job.

[325] So it sounds like you don't think the organizers in Alabama are handling this effort correctly.

[326] What do you think that they should have been doing?

[327] Well, what we were doing.

[328] Well, we were at the Circle K gas station talking to workers at the Alabama facility.

[329] And we noticed that some of them didn't even know about the election coming up.

[330] So if this union is so strong, then how come you have workers who don't even know what's going on?

[331] When this, this, this, the biggest story that's going on in Alabama, you need to talk to these workers.

[332] They need to understand why it's important that we need a union.

[333] We've had thousands and thousands of workers signed support cards.

[334] And so, you know, we believe that those workers will turn out and they'll have their voice.

[335] They were so confident that they were going to win.

[336] And I didn't get that type of vibe.

[337] Workers were not on board the way the media was portraying it as if this union was doing this amazing campaign.

[338] That's not what we saw.

[339] We saw something totally different.

[340] Right.

[341] And the reason this matters, and Craig Mark from Long Jody, is like, when it comes to a union vote in a place, like Bessemer.

[342] Every single worker's vote counts.

[343] Absolutely.

[344] And they were using a more conventional model.

[345] This was a big union, the retail workers union.

[346] But I think that part of the question, in retrospect, about Bessemer, is how much of this was coming from the Amazon workers inside the warehouse.

[347] Some of it was, absolutely, but not all of it.

[348] So the vote is over, and it was fairly one -sided.

[349] It'll give you the final numbers, 1 ,798 votes against the union, 738 votes for the union.

[350] It sounds like Chris and Derek, Jody, you're all saying a version of the same thing.

[351] Chris and Derek, what you saw was organizers not really connecting with workers, organizers from a big national union, and that they were taking a top -down approach.

[352] And Jody, you're saying that's a pretty conventional, traditional, old -school approach and put it all together, it just didn't succeed.

[353] Well, I should say technically the fight in Bessemer has stretched on a long time, but the initial vote there to form a union, that did fail.

[354] And when that happened, you know what a lot of people just said was, okay, the conventional wisdom is true.

[355] You can't organize an Amazon warehouse.

[356] So the public takeaway from Bessemer not working, Jody, is that Amazon is kind of ununionizable?

[357] Is that the vibe?

[358] That is the vibe.

[359] It's been a topic of conversation in union circles for so long.

[360] They know that this is the big one.

[361] This is the second largest employer in the U .S. It's on trajectory to become the first largest.

[362] This is like the defining employer of our time.

[363] Of our time.

[364] As my partner, Karen Weiss, our colleague often says.

[365] And it just feels from the union side like they cannot make inroads on Amazon.

[366] Chris and Derek, is that how you saw it?

[367] As you head back to New York, having seen this failure in Bessemer, you guys make this very meaningful decision to try to form your own union, the Amazon Labor Union, the ALU, rather than join a national union.

[368] Was that based on what you had just seen?

[369] Yeah, the main reason for me was, like, going down there and seeing how Bessemer handled their campaign, the fact that they weren't engaging with these workers was a red flag.

[370] About working with a big union.

[371] Yeah, about working with a big union because I feel like unions have been around for a long time, they have like their own approach.

[372] So if we're workers and we say we may have a different approach than them, they're going to say, oh, you guys don't know what you're talking about.

[373] We've been doing this for years and we're going to go with that approach.

[374] We knew it was going to be hard.

[375] It was harder, you know, obviously resources, you know, money.

[376] That's what big unions provide.

[377] But the fact that we're the workers and we can connect with them, that's all we needed to really know.

[378] rest we're just going to have to do.

[379] You know, it's going to be harder for us, but I've rather do that and fail on our terms than going behind a big union and watch them make mistakes that we know our mistakes and allow them to continue that.

[380] So we didn't hesitate.

[381] As soon as it was over, there was some people in my team at the time that were like, you know, we should wait.

[382] They wanted to study Jane McAlevy.

[383] They didn't want to study all these expertise.

[384] And they did.

[385] We signed up for the courses, I never got a chance to take them.

[386] You know, Derek, it was working.

[387] Me neither.

[388] So, unfortunately, we didn't get this.

[389] So you signed up for your unionization courses, but you don't end up taking them.

[390] I know, we just, because the timing, the onion was hot with Bessiver.

[391] I said, if I take these courses going to set us back like weeks, and I'm like, we're going to lose a lot of attention.

[392] So I said, let's go while the iron's hot.

[393] And also, I thought in my head, I said, I said, how the hell we're going to listen to expertise when this has never been done before?

[394] Mm -hmm.

[395] In reality, we're the experts.

[396] We're the ones who invested into this company.

[397] We know the ins and out of company.

[398] Right.

[399] And that's exactly how this campaign, our campaign, played out.

[400] We'll be right back.

[401] Okay, Chris and Derek, you get back to New York after your experience in Alabama.

[402] Tell us about how you go about trying to build your own union from scratch.

[403] We didn't know what we did.

[404] We had no playbook.

[405] We went to Walmart, picked up two tables, four chairs, and a tent.

[406] I spent $150 out of GoFund me, by the way.

[407] And we went out to JFK, and we said, all, let's stay at by the bus stop.

[408] We just picked that spot.

[409] So you set up a tent and chairs by the bus stop.

[410] By the bus stop.

[411] Why the bus stop?

[412] Because it's public.

[413] And we can't be removed because it's public.

[414] And the workers are going to get off of the bus stop.

[415] Exactly.

[416] They're going to get off the bus stop.

[417] We're going to see us.

[418] And what are you doing at the bus stop?

[419] What are you saying to people at the bus stop?

[420] In the beginning, it was nothing.

[421] I was out there by myself, literally.

[422] I would go there, set up the whole setup by myself on hot summer days and sit out there for hours just like that.

[423] Hands crossed.

[424] And feet up, just waiting for workers to trickle off the bus, and I would just catch them.

[425] And I'd try to get as many people as possible.

[426] And we didn't even know what we were.

[427] We're pitching.

[428] We were just like, yo, y 'all need to sign up.

[429] We're going to form a union.

[430] We didn't have too much to offer it.

[431] We only had a pamphlet and authorization cards.

[432] That's it.

[433] Wait, and, wait, Tuddy, can you just explain to us the significance of authorization cards in forming a union?

[434] Sure.

[435] They're the first step towards forming a union.

[436] You need enough cards signed from workers to show that you have enough support to even trigger an election.

[437] Once you get enough signatures, typically it's 30%.

[438] of basically everybody in the potential union.

[439] Exactly.

[440] You file them to the National Labor Relations Board.

[441] Then you can have an official election on whether or not a union will be formed.

[442] Okay, got it.

[443] And Chris, what happened once you started hanging out at the bus stop trying to get these authorization cards signed?

[444] Amazon didn't waste no time.

[445] The first day, as soon as we set up, they came right over.

[446] You guys can't be here.

[447] A dude coming over there yelling at us.

[448] And then we're like, no, we ain't take it out of, yo, get the fuck out of here.

[449] And we ain't going nowhere.

[450] We ain't going nowhere.

[451] He threatened to call the cops.

[452] We said call him.

[453] Mm -hmm.

[454] He ain't call him.

[455] And, Derek, you are still working at Amazon, right?

[456] That seems like a very difficult and pretty awkward spot for you to be in.

[457] So tell us about this kind of dual role that you're playing, working at the same company that you're trying to organize against.

[458] Yeah.

[459] Yeah, so that's complicated.

[460] Yes.

[461] First of all, we have the TCOEW Congress of Essential Workers' shirts, so I'm wearing it throughout the building.

[462] So I'm letting Amazon know right then and there, like, look, this is my stance.

[463] I'm going to continue to work, and I'm going to be like the voice of the associates in the inside of the facility.

[464] Because after Chris got fired, you know, a lot of workers were scared, scared to speak out about anything in general.

[465] So if I'm in the building, like I'm showing Amazon that I'm fearless and I'm not going to give up.

[466] and I knew that they can't, you know, if they do something about it, then it is what it is.

[467] But I'm going to go out with the fight.

[468] And what are you kind of seeing on the inside in terms of Amazon's efforts to communicate and its efforts to stop this?

[469] Well, they're saying the ALU is a third party.

[470] What's the format in which they're doing this?

[471] How are they doing this?

[472] Oh, this is a text message.

[473] This is messages in the bathroom called the installments.

[474] So, like, if you're sitting down the toilet, But there's a big, there's a big, on the door.

[475] What does it say?

[476] It's saying, do not talk to the ALU members.

[477] Their group of workers with no experience, as far as having a union.

[478] They were saying, oh, you have to pay dues if you sign this card.

[479] So they were just throwing all types of jabs at us.

[480] If there's a union, they're saying to workers, you have to pay financial dues to the union.

[481] Which is true.

[482] Yeah, but what they're trying to, it wasn't clear.

[483] It was saying, like, if you sign this authorization card, you're paying due.

[484] Got it.

[485] If you sign an authorization card, you get to election and lose, then you're not paying any dues.

[486] But, you know, me being organized and me being an inside, that's my job to, like, ease detention and let them know, like, look, you sign this authorization card, you know, there's not going to be any penalty for signing the card.

[487] We just need to gather support so that we can have an election so that we can have a union.

[488] Every day, I'll be talking to workers every single day.

[489] They would either sign the card inside the building.

[490] If they didn't sign the card inside, I'd go out, go out there, talk to Chris.

[491] And, you know, it worked.

[492] Well, Chris, tell me more about what's going on on the outside in this tent as this progresses.

[493] What's happening at the bus stop?

[494] What's being offered at the tent?

[495] You know, I had the outside game.

[496] They had the inside game.

[497] And every day shift change, we know that we're about to see 600 to 800 workers getting on and off this bus.

[498] But then it came to a point where, you know, we'd unsigned them all up.

[499] up already.

[500] Now we're like, did you sign?

[501] We're asking the same people.

[502] That's like, damn.

[503] So we had to change up our strategy.

[504] We was focusing more on days.

[505] So now it's like, all, we got to do the overnight.

[506] So now I'm telling the team, y 'all got to come at a later time so you got to stay into the morning because we got to get the night shift.

[507] And night shift was lovely.

[508] We had nights on lock from the moment we started.

[509] You know, people loved the fact that we was out there, you know, setting up bonfires.

[510] And bonfires.

[511] Yeah.

[512] We were, you know, cooking s'mores.

[513] We were singing, you know, guitar, acoustic music and playing music.

[514] And it just felt like we built a little community right there, right at the bus stop.

[515] Basically, we'd be there in the middle of the night, two, three in the morning.

[516] And workers would just come that were leaving and just sit down.

[517] Didn't know us.

[518] And they would sit down and they would tell us, honestly, like really powerful stories.

[519] Sometimes we would be out there praying.

[520] holding hands, crying, singing.

[521] It was just like a real, you can't explain the emotions that were going on.

[522] It was spiritual.

[523] And that's when I knew, like, this is going to work.

[524] Like, we were, like, a glimmer of hope for these workers because when they got out of the bus, if we wasn't there, they were like, yo, where was y 'all?

[525] So, like, I knew once we got to that point, I'm like, we got so.

[526] And think about it, like, how were we saying, we went to Bessemer, and they weren't engaging with the workers, We had to make sure we did that consistently.

[527] So this to you is the opposite of the top -down approach you saw.

[528] Yep.

[529] There's people that I know and heard them say, I signed up because I saw y 'all out here for the last year.

[530] I respect the hell out of y 'all.

[531] Like, they've seen us.

[532] What happened to your personal lives during this period?

[533] We ain't have none.

[534] I didn't see my children the last 11 months as much as far.

[535] I saw them.

[536] maybe three times in the last year and the last time was recently like two weeks ago so we sacrificed we all sacrificed our personal lives Amazon's 24 -7 so I would tell my team that every time we're not there we're losing so we got to be there one of us two of us got to be out there no matter what y 'all doing you got to be there to the point that we would even sleep outside in that tent overnight and wait for the night shift workers to get off.

[537] We would have our alarm setting our phone so that the alarm go off, oh, these workers about to get off.

[538] So, like, that type of commitment, workers seeing us there consistently helped, you know, ease the tension.

[539] We was giving out marijuana.

[540] We was giving out books.

[541] We was giving out clothing items.

[542] We were helping workers just, we were paying for people's Ubers.

[543] One time a worker came out, high blood pressure, he needed to get to the hospital.

[544] $100 Uber, go to the hospital.

[545] Amazon refused to pay for it.

[546] Refused.

[547] They told him to go home on the bus.

[548] This man had, if he didn't get to that hospital, they immediately walked him in.

[549] He could have passed out right there.

[550] But we paid for the Uber.

[551] Worker needed ride home.

[552] Here's $10.

[553] Get on the bus.

[554] Whatever it took to get even one person, we were doing it.

[555] And we got the national agreement signed.

[556] That was in December.

[557] Now we switched up our strategy again.

[558] Okay, hang on just a moment.

[559] agreement.

[560] Jody, can you explain what that is?

[561] Sure.

[562] So this is a really important thing that happens.

[563] They get a landmark settlement from the National Labor Relations Board that allows them to organize inside the building.

[564] So now the team is spending hours and hours a day in the break room.

[565] And there's one particular day when Chris himself comes up to the building to deliver food to the workers inside.

[566] You are currently trespassing on Amazon property if you are not an Amazon associate.

[567] So anyone here?

[568] You didn't answer the question, though.

[569] That sign over there says visitor, right?

[570] I'm a visitor.

[571] And I've asked you so many times.

[572] I know, but I'm a visitor.

[573] I just told you I'm a visitor, right?

[574] That day they called the police who arrest Chris for trespassing.

[575] They didn't just arrest me. They arrested two other workers that made it worse.

[576] Oh, now you got more hands on you.

[577] They're hurting my wrists once again.

[578] ALEU organizers arrest.

[579] arrested for bullshit.

[580] They're not protecting anybody.

[581] What was the response to your arrest?

[582] Oh, that that was a gym.

[583] That was a gem.

[584] They lost the election right there.

[585] What do you mean?

[586] Trust me, we knew that workers were upset about me getting arrested because everybody that's seen me for the last 11 months, whatever amount of months it was at that time, they saw me giving away stuff food whatever every single week every single day so for them to see me get arrested for giving them food the people that were undecided are on the fence about the union they was like full on me with y 'all that was the turning point they lost the election right there that's interesting because it strikes me that's the second time that amazon's handling of you seems to really play a key role in your understanding of how this all plays out.

[587] The first, of course, being their decision to fire you.

[588] Right, and that's why I stood my ground.

[589] Hmm.

[590] Okay, so Chris and Derek, you're feeling good at this moment.

[591] Employees are upset about this arrest.

[592] You finally have the signatures you need, this show of support required to hold a vote.

[593] And that's, of course, what happened last week.

[594] Before we get to that story, Jody, I want to ask you what the prospects look like, as you understand them, heading into this vote.

[595] The conventional wisdom, I have to tell you, just based on the David and Goliath nature of the story, is that this is not going to be a successful effort.

[596] Amazon, we know, spent $4 .3 million in a single year on anti -union consultants.

[597] Chris and Derek, the ALU, had a total budget of $120 ,000.

[598] And then there's the fact that essentially this hasn't happened in modern times for a really large facility with thousands of workers to form a union.

[599] To take one very rare example of that, which is over a decade old, there's a slaughterhouse in North Carolina that took 15 years to organize.

[600] But if you want to find an example of it happening with a company this big, you'd probably have to go back to the auto workers who unionized.

[601] General Motors in the 1930s.

[602] So over a century ago.

[603] So, look, it's awkward to say to your faces, Chris and Derek, but the conventional wisdom was that, look, this was a notable effort, this was a homespun effort, but one that ultimately could not succeed, given the odds.

[604] Yeah, which we knew.

[605] We knew that.

[606] Chris and Derek, are you at that point internally?

[607] I mean, just how historic this would be.

[608] If you're being honest about this moment before any vote counting is being done, do you realize, in most people's eyes, just how unlikely this is?

[609] Hell no. I sat my prayer by myself, at home.

[610] I went to the board and my favorite color.

[611] Which is?

[612] Red.

[613] And I sat here just like, like this, and I watched them drink water and sweat the whole time.

[614] Well, just, explain this, explain the scene.

[615] You go to the board to watch what?

[616] To watch the vote count.

[617] You're inside a government building, National Labor Relations Board.

[618] The vote is being counted to set that scene.

[619] What's happening in the room?

[620] Amazon had six multibillion -dollar lawyers compared to our one pro bono lawyer on their side, six of them.

[621] And then we sit in the front, two people are allowed.

[622] one on each side gets to sit at the table in front of the ballot count.

[623] There's like four or five board agents, two or three of them are opening up the ballots and like prepare them to be read in a smooth fashion.

[624] And then there's one person that's reading them.

[625] Then the other two are tallying them.

[626] And it's like from right to left pretty much, you know, they're sliding.

[627] And we're sitting in front of this small table and we're watching them say yes or no. Yes, no. Yes, no. So it was boring, but...

[628] At what moment in this counting, do you feel certain that you did this, that you won?

[629] When we got down to the last two boxes and we were up, three, four hundred, they're not coming back from that.

[630] I was like, oh, it was too bad.

[631] I was looking back at my team looking back over the show, and I'd be good.

[632] What kind of communication is going out between you guys?

[633] Head nods, smiles, fist pumps, and stuff.

[634] Yeah, I salute it the cameras, Zoom cameras.

[635] camera, everybody watching the studio was like, oh, that was fire, do it again.

[636] I did it again.

[637] I was trying to tell people, stop being nervous.

[638] We got this.

[639] And I'm not going to lie.

[640] Several members of my team thought we lost to him.

[641] I ain't going to call them out right now, but they know who they are.

[642] They thought that we were going to lose, and you know, here we are.

[643] To the first Union of American history.

[644] Do you have a message for Jeff Bezos?

[645] Oh, we want to thank Jeff Bezos for going to space, because when he was up We decided to keep a good.

[646] We got it.

[647] How are you processing that?

[648] I still can't believe it because even though I was out that bus stop, I was looking at certain articles, quotes from people, expertise.

[649] So y 'all know what the hell y 'all talk about.

[650] We out here, y 'all can say what y 'all want.

[651] I know what we were doing.

[652] And I was like, they have no idea.

[653] And they were best of my, best, them, best of me. I said, we didn't need none of that.

[654] We got a workers' budget.

[655] and sometimes no budget.

[656] So our campaign was built off of pure love and caring for one another.

[657] That's it.

[658] We got contacted by over 50 buildings, different buildings, in different states.

[659] Amazon workers around the country.

[660] Around the country.

[661] This interest in California, Texas, Arizona, Michigan, is growing.

[662] So I do have to say in many ways, the hard part is still ahead for you guys.

[663] I'm sure you know that.

[664] Yeah, we know that.

[665] You won the right to unionize, but the next step is negotiating a labor contract.

[666] And in talking to all of our colleagues, talking to you, Jody, about this, one of the most difficult task for any union at birth is negotiating a contract with a company, any company, let alone a company like Amazon, which is going to be pouring millions and millions of dollars into making it really hard for you to achieve that contract.

[667] And without a contract, the union is not really much of anything.

[668] So how aware are you of that?

[669] People should know me by now.

[670] We're fighters.

[671] That's one thing for sure.

[672] We're fighters.

[673] We're going to get a contract, whether they like it or not.

[674] And whatever way, by any means, whatever it takes, we'll get it done.

[675] I'm just reflecting on your journey here, Chris.

[676] You've gone from dissatisfied Amazon worker to leader.

[677] of this movement.

[678] I mean, on some level, are you glad this all happened?

[679] Because I wonder if you feel like through this process you found out what you're really capable of.

[680] You know what?

[681] I found out that, you know, I am who I've been my whole entire life.

[682] I always been the leader.

[683] They just didn't know that.

[684] You know, I was born this way.

[685] My mom's oldest child, my dad's incarcerated.

[686] So I didn't have real guidance.

[687] I had to learn and adapt to society my whole life.

[688] And I had to grow up, no, obviously a little bit faster than other kids because I had responsibilities at a younger age, babysitting, my younger brother, while my mom's at work.

[689] I watched my mom fight every day in my life.

[690] My mom was a part of the reunion.

[691] She was 1199.

[692] She actually fought for a contract.

[693] changed.

[694] And when I got a job at Amazon, I thought it would make my life better, take care of my family, be the head of household.

[695] But they took everything away from me. So you take everything away from somebody with nothing to lose.

[696] In the middle of a pandemic, you just created a monster.

[697] And that's exactly what I'm showing people.

[698] It's like who I am.

[699] I've been this way.

[700] So at least let me do something that's going to help people out.

[701] Well, Chris and Derek, thank you very much.

[702] Thank you for having us.

[703] Thank you.

[704] And Jody, thank you very much.

[705] A pleasure.

[706] I'm grateful for all your time.

[707] On Friday, as expected, Amazon sought to challenge the legitimacy of the vote that created the Amazon Labor Union, filing a formal objection with the National Labor Relations Board that listed 25 complaints.

[708] In its filing, Amazon argued that the results of the election should be thrown out and a new election held, in part because of the unorthodox tactics used by the ALU, including handing out marijuana to workers, which Amazon said amounted to buying votes.

[709] But labor experts said, it would be an uphill battle for Amazon, warning that employers rarely prevail in throwing out union elections.

[710] We'll be right back.

[711] Here's what else you need to another day.

[712] Over the weekend, Russia appointed a new battlefield commander to oversee its six -week -old invasion of Ukraine in an attempt to bring order to what has been a chaotic military operation.

[713] which is now focused on Ukraine's east.

[714] The commander, Alexander Dvornikov, is known for his brutal tactics.

[715] He previously oversaw Russia's 2015 military operation in Syria, during which Russian forces committed widespread atrocities against the civilian population.

[716] Meanwhile, in a dramatic show of solidarity, the Prime Minister of Britain, Boris Johnson, made an unannounced visit to Kyiv, where he met with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, promised him additional military aid, and joined him for a heavily guarded tour of the city's streets.

[717] Video of that tour showed several Ukrainian.

[718] civilians, thanking Johnson for taking such a risky trip to the country's embattled capital.

[719] It's nice to meet you, and we simply wish to keep supporting the people of Ukraine for as long as it takes.

[720] Today's episode was produced by Diana Wynne and Mujadie, with help from Claire Tennisketter and Caitlin Roberts.

[721] It was edited by Lisa Tobin, Michael Benoit, and John Ketchum.

[722] contains original music from Marion Lazzano and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

[723] Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly.

[724] Special thanks to Karen Weiss, Martin DeChico, and Steve Mang.

[725] It for the Daily.

[726] I'm Michael Barbaro.

[727] See you tomorrow.