Putin’s Opposition Ponders a Future Without Aleksei Navalny

[0] From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily.

[1] Last week, the Russian authorities announced that Alexei Navalny, the leader of Russia's opposition movement, had died in prison at the age of 47.

[2] Navalny was Vladimir Putin's most audacious and relentless critic.

[3] His fight against corruption resonated far beyond liberal Moscow.

[4] And his central message to Russians, do not be afraid because our fear is, their power.

[5] That was how Navalny lived his life, thumbing his nose at Putin's regime in the face of poisoning, prison, and ultimately death.

[6] Today, his friend, Yvgenia Albats, on how Alexei Navalny became such a singular political force and what it means for his country that he's gone.

[7] It's Thursday, February 22nd.

[8] Can you hear me?

[9] I can.

[10] Can you hear me?

[11] Oh, good.

[12] Yes.

[13] What's up, you know, lately?

[14] I enjoy it.

[15] I'm okay.

[16] I'm okay.

[17] How are you doing?

[18] I don't know how to answer this question to be also, you know.

[19] Yeah.

[20] After the death of Alexei Navalny, I called Yvgenia Alvats, who goes by Xenya.

[21] She's a Russian journalist and academic.

[22] She studies political science.

[23] She knew and worked with Navalny for decades.

[24] She now lives in exile.

[25] in the United States.

[26] I'm divided between two languages.

[27] I constantly think in English and in Russian, and I also listen to podcasts and YouTube shows in Russian and in English.

[28] And I think I live more inside Russia than I live inside the United States, except when you have your primaries, and then when you have shares.

[29] in South Carolina, and I'm waiting for this Super Tuesday, so.

[30] Jeanne, tell me about the first time you met Alexei Navalny.

[31] Remember back for me. Where were you at that moment?

[32] I was in Moscow.

[33] It was 2004.

[34] I started teaching at university as a professor of political science.

[35] I thought that I was done with journalism.

[36] So I decided to collect, you know, the group of young politicians, democratically ramped young politicians, and try to teach them grasswood politics.

[37] And so they started coming to my house in Moscow on Lesnarc Street each Tuesday.

[38] There was some 20 young people.

[39] Okay.

[40] I was cooking the medina, chicken and potatoes.

[41] And we were sitting around the table, and we were discussing, what can we do?

[42] The people who showed up to Zhenya's apartment, many of them have since gone into exile or been jailed in Russia.

[43] But back in those days, they all came to talk about politics and figure out how to do grassroots organizing in Russia, a country that had very little experience with that.

[44] And one of the people who walked through her doors, for her.

[45] one of those Tuesday get -togethers, was Alexei Navalny.

[46] And so he came.

[47] He was 27 -year -old.

[48] Back then, he was tall, handsome.

[49] He was slightly stooped.

[50] He had a bad hair card.

[51] She had a beer belly.

[52] A beer belly?

[53] Yes.

[54] A beer belly.

[55] And Jania, what was your first impression of him?

[56] What did you think?

[57] I mean, remember back for me. Smart, very attentive, very good in fulfilling thoughts and getting things done.

[58] But Navalny was not exactly very good speaker.

[59] When Janja first met Navalny, he was working a desk job for an opposition.

[60] party.

[61] Jeannia said he wasn't very happy and he wanted something more.

[62] At the time, he wasn't the polished political leader that we know today.

[63] And November mumbled something.

[64] And I was watching him, I was thinking, God, it's so unfair.

[65] He's so handsome, so good looking.

[66] He's a pure politician with this beautiful Slavic face.

[67] But he's unable to speak.

[68] But she quickly realized he had promise.

[69] When the two of them went out to Canvas on behalf of a friend from those Tuesday dinner, who was running for a local office in Moscow.

[70] We came to speak to people in the courtyard, and they were babushki, you know.

[71] Grandmothers.

[72] Grandmothers, exactly.

[73] And we were trying to ask them what are their concerns, and they were resentful.

[74] They didn't want to speak to us, you know, who are the old these young people, you know, who asking them all this kind of ridiculous questions.

[75] And then I saw Navalny, who came.

[76] forward and he smiled and then he said some joke and he helped one grandma to get to the bench and he took another grandma under her arm and he started talking and all of a sudden it was like a miracle all of them they were listening to him they were looking at him They were totally in love with him.

[77] And that's when, you know, the first time when I thought he's a born politician, that's his talent, his amazing ability to get people on his side, to talk to them.

[78] So he had charmed these resentful grandmothers.

[79] He not just charmed.

[80] You know, he sort of, he became best son.

[81] really, who was capable to help them, you know?

[82] I see Navarna had a lot of great qualities in himself, but he was lacking education.

[83] And he himself realized that pretty early in his life.

[84] And then what was...

[85] Navani grew up in a military town outside of Moscow.

[86] Jeannia says that the schools he attended there were pretty bad, with a narrow Soviet curriculum.

[87] But Navalny was hungry.

[88] to learn.

[89] If he was going to have a real political future in Russia, he needed to do more than just charm grandmothers in courtyards.

[90] And so in 2009, he had an idea.

[91] Navalny came to my office and he said, Zhenya, I want to go to Yale University.

[92] I really think I need to spend a year in the good university, take classes.

[93] And he got English.

[94] to this world leaders program at Yale University.

[95] And Thurston for Miles, he started all things related to American Party politics.

[96] It was very important to understand for him what kind of system of check and balances was built in this country, the role of the Supreme Court.

[97] But also, how do you win elections?

[98] That's what he was looking for, first and for miles.

[99] It was important for his political education.

[100] Exactly.

[101] He was looking and he had to learn how to do it, how to win.

[102] Jeanne says he became a voracious consumer of all things politics.

[103] But also, you know, this famous TV series, The Wire.

[104] Even TV shows.

[105] Remember, you know, season three and four, there are election campaign for the mayor of Baltimore.

[106] Everything that had to do with politics.

[107] He was watching or reading, and he was picking up different tools.

[108] And he started trying out some of the things he was learning.

[109] He told me that he put chairs for the elderly people who came to his rails precisely so that, you know, they could see it comfortably.

[110] And he said, you know what, Jania, I saw it in the House of Cards.

[111] I saw it in the House of Cards.

[112] And I thought, that's a great idea.

[113] So he saw in the House of Cards the television show with Kevin Spacey, he saw that political leaders would put chairs for elderly people because, you know, that was something you were supposed to do as a politician.

[114] Navalny did that.

[115] Yes.

[116] Meanwhile, he wasn't just studying up on American politics.

[117] He was also teaching himself how to use YouTube, building a following online.

[118] And he was studying public speaking.

[119] And he came up on this.

[120] stage.

[121] And that was brilliant speech.

[122] And his political activity and his speeches started getting more polished.

[123] Asking this 100 ,000 strong crowd standing in front of him, who is a real power in this country?

[124] We, are we going to give up our inspiration to take our country back?

[125] No. There was huge energy, which was coming out of him.

[126] He was very sincere, and you felt like he was talking directly to you.

[127] Okay, so Navalny is getting a political education.

[128] He's becoming a more polished speaker, and he starts to run for office.

[129] So he runs for mayor of Moscow in 2013.

[130] He gets a pretty significant share of the vote.

[131] by Russian standards, right?

[132] 27%.

[133] 27%.

[134] And then in 2018, he makes a big move.

[135] He takes on Putin himself.

[136] Tell me about that.

[137] Navalny decided to run for the presidency.

[138] By then, everybody in Russia already recognized that the only guy who was capable to challenge Putin was Alexei Navalny.

[139] And Navalnyi started He started traveling around the country.

[140] Russia is a huge country, it's the biggest country in the world, 11 times on.

[141] So he was going from Ural Mountains to the Russian Faris, from the Faris to Magadar, from Magadon to the White Sea, and et cetera.

[142] And he was running a campaign pretty much the way that campaign is run in the United States.

[143] And Navalini spoke from the roof of the garages from the stairs of different buildings.

[144] He spoke from the roofs of the apartment buildings.

[145] You know, he would speak from the lampples.

[146] We should, we must live better.

[147] But we don't because they've stolen everything from us and they steal from us every day.

[148] He said, let's go to the Kremlin and get our power back.

[149] power should be in our hands, not on the hand of those crooks, of those cheaters, of those people who told the wealth of the country.

[150] He called the people in the Kremlin crooks and cheaters and said they had stolen your money, in fact, Russia's money, that they were thieves, basically.

[151] Exactly.

[152] And people were cunning by thousands to listen to him.

[153] And a friend of mine wrote to me that he was impressed to see.

[154] how people who were pretty much resentful about Navalny, who considered him to be a populist and was afraid of his populism, at the end of the meeting, they gave him a standing ovation.

[155] They were so impressed.

[156] And so it was important to bring politics from Moscow down to the provinces, to the regions of the Russian Federation, and bring people there.

[157] to recognize that they need him as a president because he was going to make life of their city, their town, their region, better, more democratic, more prosperous.

[158] And, Genia, what were you thinking as you were watching all of this unfold?

[159] I mean, he's doing this very unusual thing for Russia, right?

[160] This thing that to an American audience is just sort of meat and potatoes political campaigning.

[161] But in Russia was kind of a revelation.

[162] Yes, I was thinking that I was afraid that they were going to kill him.

[163] It was already after Boris Nizzov was killed back in 2015.

[164] This is another important opposition leader who was killed, not far from the Kremlin, actually, in a political assassination.

[165] Yes.

[166] Did Nivalny himself worry about being killed?

[167] Did he talk about this with you?

[168] No, I wouldn't say that he talked.

[169] But, you know, whenever I was bringing about the question of his, you know, security or getting people who would at least protect him, he kept saying that basically it's impossible.

[170] I think, you know, he just didn't allow himself to think about that.

[171] Jeanne, did you have any personal conversations with him about why he wanted to run against Putin in the presidential election?

[172] why he wanted to do that?

[173] Because we knew that Putin was very dangerous, that it was important to stop him, because already the majority of democratic institutions in the country were subverted.

[174] Courts didn't exist.

[175] Judiciary didn't exist.

[176] Putin's subordinates from the efforts being, all these checkers, they were grabbing people's property, keeping out people, you know, putting them in jail, making them to go in exile.

[177] So it's already, And it was clear that Putin was preparing for some awful development, and they had to be stopped.

[178] And it was clear that the only one who was capable to stop Putin was Aynnawan, nobody else had goals to do that.

[179] As simple as that.

[180] It was not that we discussed whether he should or should not.

[181] It was clear that he had to.

[182] We'll be right back.

[183] officials in Russia have banned opposition leader Alexei Navalny from running for president.

[184] The country's election commission has barred the Kremlin critic from standing in the March vote, citing a controversial embezzlement conviction, Navalny says, was politically motivated.

[185] We're objavely for a bustle of hisbrietyly, to get and to get billioletain, it to the country's Central Election Commission rejected his bid to take part.

[186] Well, Alexei Navalny believes that if he ran against Vladimir Putin in what he deemed would be a free and fair election, that he could beat Vladimir Putin, and he actually thinks that Putin is afraid of him, afraid of Alexei Navalny.

[187] When the effort to get him on the ballot failed, what was Navalny's reaction?

[188] He was extremely upset.

[189] He was very, very angry.

[190] But he doesn't relent in his political activities, right?

[191] He continues to speak out against Putin, and eventually Putin tries to take Navalny out.

[192] He poisons him.

[193] And Navalny ends up convalescing in Germany where he recovers.

[194] This is a very dramatic part of his life.

[195] And he makes at that point an interesting decision, which is that he's going to leave his family in Germany and return to Russia.

[196] where it seemed like he was pretty much certainly going to be arrested and put in prison.

[197] And yet, he goes back.

[198] So why?

[199] Why?

[200] To be honest with you, I think that he didn't have any other option to return back.

[201] You cannot ask people to be brave and to resist and to reject the regime sitting in the luxury of the European capitals.

[202] You have to be with your people.

[203] And that's exactly what he said.

[204] I am Russian politician.

[205] So I have to be in Russia, he said.

[206] And he had to demonstrate to people that it was possible to overcome any fear.

[207] When he was on trial, he had a piece of paper and he wrote on it, I am not afraid.

[208] And you shouldn't be.

[209] a parade as well.

[210] When he gave his interview to the director of this movie, documentary, Navalny and she was asked, what's going to happen?

[211] What people should know if you get killed?

[212] And his answer was, if I get killed, my only message to you, and he said this in Russian, don't give up.

[213] Don't give up.

[214] Don't give up.

[215] That was his slogan.

[216] That was the main principle of his life.

[217] Don't give up.

[218] Don't be afraid.

[219] It's important, Sabriva, to understand that Soviet KGB and nowadays Putin's FSP, this political police, which are running the country, its power is based on people's fear.

[220] They're capable to control the country because people are afraid.

[221] And so Navalny was trying to send this message.

[222] Don't be afraid.

[223] We have to fight these people.

[224] This is our country.

[225] And that's what we have to do.

[226] So really more than any other political issue, his fundamental message was our fear is their power.

[227] Don't allow them that.

[228] Don't give it to them.

[229] That's what he was saying to people.

[230] Exactly, 100%.

[231] And I realized it sounds like, Jeannia, he didn't think he had any other option.

[232] You don't think potentially he had any other option.

[233] He had to go back because that's who he was.

[234] But I wonder if you think now, was that the right decision to return to Russia?

[235] Yes, it was the right decision to return back to Roth.

[236] Yes, he gambled.

[237] Yes, he thought that Putin, he wouldn't dare to kill him because he was well too famous.

[238] And he returned back after he exposed Putin's henchman.

[239] And he wrote to me in one of his letters, I know that I'm going to sit in jail as long as Putin is alive.

[240] He knew that.

[241] You know, it's very difficult to get into someone else's head.

[242] But, you know, I just think that he felt humiliated to be afraid of Putin or anybody else.

[243] He had the sense of mission of he was running a good fight, and he had all the intention to win this fight.

[244] And if you think that you're going to get killed or you're going to start to pity yourself, you know, like he wrote to me, stop being upset.

[245] said, everything is okay.

[246] It's just a historical process.

[247] Russia is going through this historical process and we are going along with it.

[248] Everything is going to be okay.

[249] And even if everything is not going to be okay, we can console ourselves.

[250] We will get consolation in the fact of having lived honest lives, of being honest people.

[251] And yet it strikes me that Navalny's true superpower was that he was not afraid.

[252] He had this kind of incomprehensible lack of fear, this confidence, that he could win, despite what it looked like from the outside.

[253] And that that gave him this ability to kind of thumb his nose at the system, right, to sort of make fun of it and show people that in the end it's just a bunch of idiots trying and failing to poison his underwear, right?

[254] Like, the system was nothing but that.

[255] It wasn't that scary.

[256] But now that he's dead, it's like that magic trick, it disappears.

[257] And the death itself seems to teach a different lesson, that people should be afraid, that the system is that scary.

[258] What do you think of that?

[259] I'm not afraid.

[260] And, you know, if you look at those in Russia, thousands and thousands of people, come and, you know, they mourn and grief Navalny.

[261] Almost 400 people were arrested.

[262] People were beaten by the police.

[263] But people keep coming and coming and coming.

[264] And when you look at their faces, you see that these are predominantly young people.

[265] He presented a future to them.

[266] Are they going to give up on their future?

[267] Are they going to go into exile?

[268] all of them, it's not possible.

[269] But they may stay quiet and do nothing, which is what he advised against, right?

[270] I mean, you know, you say, Jena, you're not afraid, but you're in the U .S. in exile, right?

[271] It's frightening this regime, and it's a natural response to be afraid of it.

[272] So I guess I'm just wondering, what is his legacy?

[273] Like, what's left, you know?

[274] He's gone.

[275] Is there anything that survives him?

[276] I think his legacy is his belief that Russia is not doomed, that Russia will become a normal, civilized, democratic, free, peaceful, and prosperous country.

[277] And I think that his belief and his courage.

[278] and the fact that he sacrificed his one and the older life for the future of Russia, that's what will become an inspiration for millions of young Russians.

[279] I cannot stand the thought that his death was in vain.

[280] And I think that his wife, Juliennayne, she is going to defend and to carry on the kind of fight that Navalny tragically failed to accomplish because he was killed.

[281] Jeanne, what are you going to miss most about your friend, about Alexei?

[282] His smile, I'm going to miss his smile.

[283] I'm going to miss our conversations.

[284] I'm going to miss the friend who was ready to give his hand, even from jail.

[285] I'm going to miss a politician who was capable to turn my country into a normal democratic, free and peaceful country.

[286] I still, you know, I sometimes, you know, I just walk around my apartment and I say out loud, Ayocha, where are you?

[287] it's still hard to comprehend that he's no longer with us.

[288] And I'm going to miss my friend.

[289] That's why he was my friend of 20 years.

[290] You know, the last time I saw him, it wasn't in his penal colony.

[291] It was in the summer of 2022.

[292] And he came and he hugged me. And I told him, don't worry about your parents.

[293] taking care about them.

[294] And then I saw how, you know, he walked out of this hole.

[295] He was getting into the door that led to this prison barrack.

[296] And, you know, a minute ago, he was smiling, and he was, you know, saying something funny and encouraging, et cetera.

[297] And I saw how his face became dark.

[298] And I was thinking, God, you know, what are they doing to this brilliant human being?

[299] How long will he be able to extend all the torture and humiliation?

[300] And now, of course, I think how he died.

[301] And it makes me sick to think that he died alone, surrounded by all this dirty, little people, and I'm so sorry for him.

[302] He was just 47 -year -old.

[303] And I think that it is so unfair that an evil guy, an evil person, he lives in comfort, even though he brings no good to anyone around him.

[304] and Navajani is laying somewhere in the morgue in the Arctic Circle and there is no sun.

[305] Cheyenne, thank you for talking to me. Thank you, Sabrina.

[306] Good night, Jane.

[307] Good night.

[308] The Russian authorities have yet to give Navalny's body back to his family.

[309] On Tuesday, his mother, Ludmila Navalnya, stood in front of the Arctic prison where he was being held to demand her son's release.

[310] I'm about you, Vladimir Putin.

[311] Reschering of the question is only from you.

[312] Daites me, to see my son.

[313] She said, quote, I ask you, Vladimir Putin, let me finally see my son.

[314] The decision is entirely in your hands.

[315] We'll be right back.

[316] Here's what you should know today.

[317] Alabama's Supreme Court has ruled that frozen embryos in test tubes should be considered children, a decision that sent shockwaves through the world of reproductive medicine.

[318] The ruling issued late last week stemmed from appeals cases brought by couples in Alabama, whose embryos were destroyed in 2020.

[319] On Wednesday, the ruling was already having a profound effect.

[320] the University of Alabama at Birmingham Health System announced that it was pausing in vitro fertilization treatments while it evaluated the court's ruling.

[321] And the Times reports that President Biden is considering executive action that could prevent people who cross illegally into the United States from claiming asylum.

[322] The extraordinary action would put into effect a key policy in a bipartisan bill that Republicans thwarted earlier this month.

[323] It is similar to a 2018 effort by then -President Donald Trump to stop migration, which was eventually blocked by federal courts.

[324] But even if Biden's effort gets stopped in court, a legal fight could allow him to try to neutralize one of his biggest political vulnerabilities, the chaos at the southern border.

[325] Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Muzzii, Ricky Nevetsky, and Sydney Harper.

[326] It was edited by Lisa Chow.

[327] Fact -checked by Susan Lee.

[328] Contains original music by Marian Lazzano, Alicia Buketube, and Pat McCusker, and translations by Milana Mazaeva, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley.

[329] Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly.

[330] Special thanks to Anton Trinovsky.

[331] That's it for the daily.

[332] I'm Sabrina Tavernisi.

[333] See you tomorrow.