Bradley Edwards

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, experts on expert.

[1] I'm Pete Sampras and I'm joined by John McEnroe.

[2] Hi.

[3] I wish I knew more about tennis.

[4] Really, I should have called you Billy Jean King, probably.

[5] Oh, that would have been nice.

[6] Yeah, because you're female and so was she.

[7] Yeah, and she's the best.

[8] And she was the best.

[9] I don't know if she is the best.

[10] Serena and, right?

[11] I'm trying to get Serena.

[12] Oh, I would love to get Serena.

[13] I know.

[14] Putting that on the ether.

[15] Well, that's not today, though.

[16] It's not today.

[17] No, you know, once in a blue moon, we'll hop into some topical conversation, and it's really fun, and that's what we did on this.

[18] Now, we both consumed the Epstein podcast series, which was fantastic, and we also watched the Netflix documentary.

[19] Yes.

[20] It's an endlessly fascinating story.

[21] It's horrendous on all levels, exposes the levels of corruption that really are currently happening that we pretend aren't.

[22] Yeah, oof, it is nasty.

[23] many ways.

[24] The size of it is overwhelming.

[25] Now, Bradley Edwards is a nationally recognized board -certified civil trial attorney who specializes in providing civil representation for children, victims of sexual abuse, and victims of violent crime.

[26] He most notably was the attorney of more than 20 alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein and continues to fight for them to this day.

[27] We really got a bang out of talking to Bradley.

[28] We had seen him in the documentary, but we found him in person to be just so darn likable and fun to hang with, right?

[29] And he just kind of walked us, through the story.

[30] And it's a lot to take in, but it's important to take in.

[31] Yes.

[32] And the weight of the things he knows that he still can't publicly say must be so daunting.

[33] Yeah.

[34] Well, this is a tasty interview.

[35] So please enjoy Bradley Edwards.

[36] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[37] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[38] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[39] He's an I'm transparent.

[40] Where are you at?

[41] I'm in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

[42] What kind of heat are we looking at down there?

[43] Oh, we're in the 90s now, but nobody goes outside anymore, right?

[44] The only time we see anybody is on Zoom through a computer screen, so it doesn't really matter what the weather is.

[45] Yeah.

[46] How is that affected legal proceedings, the different cases that you're currently pursuing?

[47] Basically, screeching halt.

[48] Yeah, it's bad.

[49] I mean, unfortunately, all of our hearings, are by Zoom, somewhat chaotic, although I think everybody is getting used to it a little bit.

[50] Depositions by Zoom, there's no jury trials.

[51] You know, as a trial attorney, you can't get anything done.

[52] There's no trials.

[53] No trials.

[54] In fact, we're being told that when they come back, that all of the judges are going to have to concentrate on the criminal trials, speedy trial and things like that.

[55] So civil trials are put on hold probably realistically for another year.

[56] Oh, my goodness.

[57] Wow.

[58] You represent many of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein.

[59] How many victims?

[60] Right now, 56.

[61] Oh, my goodness.

[62] Oh, my God.

[63] Wow, 56.

[64] And so you know what I want to do is I want to walk through what happened for anyone that's not listened to the great podcast that was about this or watch the great Netflix documentary.

[65] Was it Netflix?

[66] Yeah, the great Netflix documentary about it.

[67] Let's together walk folks through who Jeffrey Epstein was and how he can.

[68] came to be this prolific.

[69] Monster.

[70] Yeah, monster.

[71] All right, good.

[72] So, Jeffrey Epstein, it's best to kind of work backwards.

[73] We all learned that he was this kind of Uber, wealthy, control freak who had this penchant for engaging in sex with very young women and girls, as young as 14 years old.

[74] But he kind of worked into that.

[75] You know, that was what ultimately was revealed.

[76] But if you rewind time, you know, you go back to the...

[77] 70s, he's this teacher at the Dalton school and nobody really knows how he got the job.

[78] And then he gets plucked out of there to Bear Stearns and nobody really knows how he got that job.

[79] And, you know, it's like he conned his way into everything.

[80] He was very smart and very charismatic.

[81] And, you know, I met him several times.

[82] Well, can I just say, I hate to admit, we were watching the documentary.

[83] And both Monica and I were like, you know, it would be a lie to not say the guy was handsome.

[84] Like there was many moments where you're watching him.

[85] you're like, well, he's a good -looking older guy.

[86] Well, that's how serial killers happen.

[87] It's the same thing.

[88] There's a charisma and a bizarre, almost empathy where they know how to master manipulate.

[89] And I think it throws you off the trail a little bit because we have such generic, binary ideas of who can have access to sex and who can't.

[90] So when it's like a very handsome person who's charismatic and rich, you a little bit go like, well, there's no way he had to do anything scandalous to have.

[91] have sex.

[92] It's helpful to that person, I think, to appear to have a lot of options.

[93] Yeah, of course.

[94] He would even say that to me. Really?

[95] Look, I'm offering these girls the best life they've ever seen.

[96] Come on.

[97] Let's talk about this client or that client.

[98] They came from the trailer park.

[99] They came to my mansion.

[100] I paid a money.

[101] You know, who wouldn't want to kind of jet set and live this life?

[102] And now, you know, they're coming back and saying they didn't like it.

[103] then, okay, they're 14, 15, 16 years old, but who's to really say what controls who I can be with and who I can't, you know?

[104] And he did it in a charismatic way that almost made you want to believe that, okay, there's some weird philosophy here that he can almost convince somebody of this, you know?

[105] Yeah, was there any moment for you were, not to say that you ever lost your objectivity or it came under his spell, but were there ever moments where you're like, this guy's kind of likable?

[106] Like, if I wasn't involved in any of this and I ran him to him at a dinner party that I might just think the guy was fine.

[107] Every time.

[108] Every time I ever met him, you know, there came a point in time where he filed a lawsuit against me and then called me immediately and said, you know, look, I will drop the lawsuit against you if you'll abandon your prosecution against me. You know, that was his way of kind of extorting me or attempting to extort me into abandoning my clients.

[109] And there came a point we were talking through lawyers where we both decided we're going to get more done if we don't have lawyers there.

[110] So let's just start meeting in person.

[111] and we would meet at coffee shops and start talking.

[112] In person.

[113] Wow.

[114] In person.

[115] So there comes a point in time where I use that as a way to feel him out and learn who he is and kind of get in his head.

[116] And at the same time, he's trying to do the same thing.

[117] He wants me off his trail.

[118] And I want to figure out how to take him down.

[119] So we're meeting in person and jousting this kind of intellectual chess game.

[120] And every time, we were only three minutes into every conversation where I find myself laughing at his stupid jokes.

[121] I go, hey, wait, you know, he's not a bad guy.

[122] And then you go, wait, but I know all of the things that he's done.

[123] He's a terrible guy.

[124] Yeah, yeah, he's the definition of a bad guy.

[125] I would have to remind myself over and over again and go, okay, remember why you're here.

[126] Let's stick to it and try to pin him down on what his real game is, how I have you right now, and listen to him, try to talk his way out of it, you know?

[127] And he was a smart guy.

[128] So he would sometimes catch you in a situation where he would say, all right, Brad, you're a smart guy.

[129] we don't have to get pinned down with all of these nuance, these laws, when we're talking about I'm a billionaire who travels from Florida and the age of consent's 18 and then what?

[130] I go to New York and it's 17 and then I go to France and it's 15 and all of the girls are the same and how am I supposed to keep up with all of this?

[131] You know, biology should kind of dictate things, don't you think?

[132] Oh, geez.

[133] So his position was there was more of a logistical issue afoot.

[134] Yeah, I mean, the law is really discriminated against him.

[135] You know, they weren't really intended for somebody with his lifestyle.

[136] What he would say is, I am a victim of arbitrary circumstance.

[137] You know, it's arbitrary rules, and I'm supposed to keep up with them.

[138] Do you believe he believed that?

[139] No. Or he was just good.

[140] You don't believe he believed that.

[141] No, he didn't believe it.

[142] I mean, this is a guy who in high school, he was a nerd by all accounts, skipping grades.

[143] And I think that the people who rejected him the most were the real pretty high school.

[144] school girls, and he never really had that.

[145] So at some point in time, when he gets money, he decides, and he's a sociopathic guy who decides, I'm going to get back at this group.

[146] I'm going to control them at some point in time, and they become his targets.

[147] Yes, he had a nefarious agenda, but I'll also add, here I am at 43 years old.

[148] I'm in an interview.

[149] The guy that's interviewing me is wearing Air Jordan Fours, right?

[150] And that's what I wanted in high school.

[151] I school and couldn't afford.

[152] And I go to the guy, wow, nice Air Jordan Fours.

[153] He goes, yeah, you know, you can get them now.

[154] And I literally go, oh my God, I can afford Air Jordan Fours.

[155] And I buy them.

[156] And guess what?

[157] I just bought the truck I wanted in high school.

[158] Like, I'm doing it where I want the shit I couldn't have in high school.

[159] Yeah.

[160] Of course, I'm not a fucking scumbag and I wouldn't go so.

[161] Not using humans.

[162] Right, right.

[163] But I got to say it's not beyond my comprehension to think that he was trying to assemble all the pieces that he thought he wanted in high school.

[164] And for him, those included humans.

[165] Yeah, I agree.

[166] It's a little more complex because you weren't rejected by the Air Jordan force.

[167] Well, financially a little bit.

[168] Right, I guess so.

[169] But I'm not mean to my Jordans.

[170] I treat them very much.

[171] Yeah, exactly.

[172] No, he intentionally would target somebody who was very vulnerable, pray specifically on their vulnerabilities, and try his very best to force them to do things they otherwise would not do with the intention of harming them.

[173] It wasn't only for his own pleasure.

[174] He hated women from that rejection and he was a misogynist and he wanted to get even.

[175] And wanted to control them.

[176] I mean, I ended up having a mutual friend, not a mutual friend of his.

[177] He was my friend.

[178] Jeffrey Epstein was fascinated with this guy's mind.

[179] And the guy went to Jeffrey Epstein's island, kind of covert for me, doing this kind of undercover operation for me. And Jeffrey Epstein shared some of his philosophy with him and said, you know, I want a sister.

[180] a new system that won't get me caught to accumulate girls.

[181] And my friend says, you know, what are you talking about?

[182] And he says, well, you know women.

[183] They're basically a life support system for a vagina.

[184] Oh, my God.

[185] So that's how he thought.

[186] And so then it was how can I really target them and break them down?

[187] I mean, it was really a matter of just control.

[188] And do you think you noticed that it was an addiction in that it evolved and got worse and worse and less and less manageable?

[189] Because I guess the earliest case that I'm aware of, and you probably know, of them earlier is when he invited the artist to live at his place where that big mansion was.

[190] And that person was of, or they weren't of age.

[191] Were they of age, the sisters?

[192] Was one of age and one wasn't?

[193] Exactly.

[194] One was of age.

[195] Okay, there's a couple cases that are a little bit earlier than that would show up in the new indictment of Gilin Maxwell.

[196] And I think short chronology is his girlfriend's Guillen, Guillen realizes that Jeffrey is attracted to younger girls.

[197] I don't think that he really has the ability to give.

[198] get them, because he's not the guy on the street trying to pick up girls a natural way, but Ghilin is.

[199] And so she starts bringing him this 14 -year -old, this 15 -year -old, who are very talented people.

[200] I mean, that was really kind of her thing, is bring him talent, and he's going to pretend to be the Victoria's Secret Scout, or he's going to pretend to be the model scout.

[201] He can get you into any school that you want.

[202] And then the one that you're talking about Maria Farmer, he brings her in, gives her this job.

[203] She's a great painter, sets her up a painting for a movie, and realizes she has a sister that's 10 years younger.

[204] In between Gielin and Jeffrey, they then start grooming the younger sister, realizing that's the target age group.

[205] Once he gets a taste of that age group, it does become an addiction to the point that he personally develops the scheme of paying one victim to go get others, and it creates this massive spider web.

[206] Well, he creates a pyramid scheme.

[207] When I was watching the documentary, I'm like, this is a shared profit, multi -level marketing, recruiting other.

[208] people to recruit other people and incentivizing everyone along the way.

[209] And then, yeah, it just keeps multiplying and multiplying, right?

[210] Oh, yeah.

[211] And he used, you know, peer pressure.

[212] I mean, these are things that he studied, too, like psychological peer pressure.

[213] If you have a 15 -year -old who's convincing their friend, it's okay.

[214] They're doing kind of the dirty work for him.

[215] And once he gets them there, they have no chance.

[216] But other people described that at the peak, that it was like breathing air.

[217] He needed it three and four times a day.

[218] He was so addicted.

[219] Well, yeah, that's the part.

[220] I personally, as a normal 45 -year -old man, there's no way I could have sex three times a day.

[221] So I was just like, this is a pathology clearly that no person really wants to fuck four times a day.

[222] Something else is happening here.

[223] Right, right.

[224] I mean, physiologically, how could he even accomplish that?

[225] I wondered that myself.

[226] Yeah.

[227] But also, it really was not always a matter of sex as much as it was control because there were times where he might have sex in the morning.

[228] the next time and the next time and the next time that someone comes over, if you really pay attention to the details, it usually wasn't actual sex.

[229] It was this weird routine of, you know, not to be too graphic, but him masturbating while he touches and fondles them.

[230] Just shaming them, right?

[231] Like demoralizing them and.

[232] Yeah.

[233] So it's just a matter of like forcing people to do things they otherwise wouldn't do and then trying to normalize it and making them think, hey, look, this is what the rich and famous do.

[234] You're just a trailer part kid.

[235] So, play along like you're in my world now yeah if you want to be in this world this is the barrier of entry now this case what it's really exemplifying is income inequality like without income inequality on the level that exists it really couldn't happen people are so desperate there's so much financial desperation that of course an epstein can exist because you have so many people that $200 is life changing.

[236] You know, $200 shouldn't be life changing for anyone in the richest country in the world.

[237] I was just overwhelmed with that.

[238] Yeah.

[239] Well, it's the disparity of power and money was the difference there.

[240] I mean, that's what created that disparity of power.

[241] You know, people have focused really on the underage girls, the high school kids that he was paying $200 because that's what they needed.

[242] But there were 18 and 19 year olds that he victimized just as bad, some worse, by saying, hey, look, what do you want as an 18 or 19?

[243] you know, do you want to go to college?

[244] I can get you into a college because he had those connections.

[245] He roped them in innocently job interviews and things like that.

[246] And sometimes nothing sexual would happen for multiple times until he got him into school and they were indebted to him.

[247] Then he made his move and you felt like you didn't have a chance.

[248] Right.

[249] So all these predators, right, their bread and butter is leverage.

[250] So his genius was probably recognizing what leverage he had or what thing they desired and then exploiting that.

[251] That's why his side job was to accumulate all of these connections that he had so that he could then utilize those connections with universities and with scientists and with other businessmen and former presidents and whatever it was.

[252] And then he could leverage that to get what he wanted from the girls.

[253] Right.

[254] He's donating to all these institutions, right?

[255] And then he's calling in favors to get his sex slaves some kind of an interview or something.

[256] Exactly.

[257] I mean, sometimes he would call somebody that wanted to be in fashion.

[258] He would learn of an 18 or 19 year old over in Europe and say, oh, you want a job?

[259] I can get you a job with and without, you know, selling anybody down the river.

[260] But the top people, they come over here thinking, hey, look, I'm getting my foot in the door, which is what everybody wants, right?

[261] And all of a sudden, they have a job the day that they get here.

[262] And after two weeks of having the dream job of your life, you're in another country, now you're at his house and you feel like I have no choice but to do whatever he's asking you to do.

[263] Yeah.

[264] Just a question.

[265] And this is kind of a psychological question, but I just wonder your take on it because, you know, a lot of people, people hear these stories, this specific Epstein story, but also others of workplace harassment and they say, well, the girls should just say no or the girls should just leave or the girls should be smart enough to pick their integrity over their career.

[266] And that's so off base to the power discrepancy.

[267] I was wondering what your take on that was having talked to these people.

[268] Yeah, Shirley, you've had fewer suing somebody, right?

[269] Their lawyer is going to definitely, the defendant, make that argument.

[270] Like, well, this was a transaction.

[271] They wanted this.

[272] He wanted that.

[273] Well, and I also think that, you know, it's not one -size -fits -all, but with this specific thing that Jeffrey Epstein was doing, you have to almost put yourself in the shoes of the actual victim.

[274] Let me start by saying, I've talked to a hundred or more victims, and not a single one of them was able to escape getting abused at least one time.

[275] Not a single one.

[276] So, like, like, picture.

[277] you this, right?

[278] This is a typical scenario.

[279] You go over to an eight -story townhouse and you walk in thinking at most, you know, if you've been told even close to the truth, you might have to give a massage.

[280] But some of them is just, hey, you're a pretty girl.

[281] He might give you a modeling contract.

[282] Either way, you're put on an elevator.

[283] You're taken up to a floor.

[284] You don't know what floor you're on.

[285] You're taken into a room.

[286] You're expecting there's going to be a guy behind a desk.

[287] You walk in, now you're alone in a room and a guy comes out naked with a robe on, takes it off and says, start massaging me, what really are you going to do?

[288] Most of them thought, I just want to get out of here alive.

[289] I just want to get out live.

[290] And so you do whatever you're supposed to do.

[291] And then you realize, wait, this guy's not holding me down.

[292] He recognizes I come from a broken home or I have these vulnerabilities.

[293] And he's listening to me. He's talking to me. He cares.

[294] So then he starts trying to convince him.

[295] He cares.

[296] He keeps pushing limit after limit after limit.

[297] And then at the end, he actually pays.

[298] And then he says, you can bring others.

[299] Look, be like me. You're an entrepreneur.

[300] and he gets in their heads.

[301] The mind manipulation was just unbelievable.

[302] So there really wasn't ever a time where somebody says, I can just say no and pick my morals over anything and run out.

[303] That just wasn't the scenario here.

[304] I think we also underestimate this is something that I came to learn throughout the Me Too movement and Times Up, which is like hearing the account of some of the gals that Weinstein prayed upon, that you're there for this business meeting about acting, and then he's kissing you.

[305] And it takes a minute for your brain to even comprehend what's happening.

[306] How am I getting out of this?

[307] By that point, you can be pretty far down the road.

[308] He's moving fast.

[309] And you're like, your brain can't even catch up to that situation.

[310] And he truly can make her break your career.

[311] Mm -hmm.

[312] Exactly.

[313] And that was also Jeffrey Epstein, too.

[314] If you went along with him, he could make your careers.

[315] That's what he did with models.

[316] Or he could break it.

[317] And you knew that he actually did have those connections.

[318] Same as Weinstein, which I can tell you a funny story.

[319] When I would talk to Epstein, he was friends with Weinstein.

[320] He would call him that fucking pig.

[321] So Epstein would like put Weinstein down as like, that guy's a pig.

[322] You know, I even kicked him out of my place one time for trying to screw one of my girls.

[323] Oh, wow.

[324] Yeah, so he'd love to try to put himself on some different level.

[325] Additionally, if Jeffrey Epstein calls you a pig, you're probably a fucking pig.

[326] Exactly.

[327] Isn't that such an interesting human thing of justification?

[328] Oh, yeah, that he saw himself as much different than Weinstein.

[329] Yeah.

[330] We even had a talk one time about Catholic priests and he said, I just can't believe that these Catholic priests do what they do to some of these altar boys when they know that they're using religion as power over them.

[331] That's just not fair.

[332] You're going, I feel like you're getting some like sick excitement out of the fact that you're describing yourself.

[333] I mean, yeah.

[334] Yeah.

[335] Weird sociopath.

[336] How do you explain or what is your theory on Galane, Matt?

[337] her dad was kind of criminalesque or something he was a rich guy right who had some questionable ethics and rich fraudster and he dies in some pretty mysterious way and in about 91 you know he either falls off the boat or someone throws him off the boat or masad jails him or whatever the rumor is that you want to believe yeah and she almost immediately is introduced to epstein and epstein has the money to replace dad's money, and she has the connections.

[338] Can I ask real quick, did she get any of the dad's money, or was the dad's money confiscated because he was a criminal, or what happened with that?

[339] Allegedly, he lost it all because, you know, it was discovered after he died, that he was this fraudster and had stolen from the pension of all of his employees.

[340] And I understand that she didn't get any of it.

[341] So she needed money, and Epstein needed connections.

[342] They were kind of the perfect pair.

[343] and then she realized, hey, this is this guy who has this crazy sex addiction that I can't fulfill.

[344] And I think she would have done anything for him.

[345] And so she starts feeding him and just fuels the addiction.

[346] Without her, there would be no Jeffrey Epson.

[347] We wouldn't be talking.

[348] None of this would have happened.

[349] Yeah, he couldn't have done all this without a partner.

[350] She created him.

[351] The first people that were brought to him to start this pyramid, they were brought by her.

[352] None of this could have grown.

[353] he could not have become who he was without her.

[354] She created the monster, no doubt about it.

[355] Wow.

[356] Let me just also add, he is a criminal and a mastermind in this capacity, but he also, every element of his life is a con, right?

[357] I mean, from beginning to end, he's teaching at his school.

[358] He doesn't have a degree that he should to teach there.

[359] He then goes and works for Bear Stearns.

[360] He shouldn't be there.

[361] He got caught in some Reg D violations at Bear Stearns, insider trading type thing.

[362] and they kicked him out.

[363] And then he went and worked for another fraudster.

[364] This guy, Stephen Hoffenberg, who was running a Ponzi scheme, who's now running around after he got out of prison saying, yeah, we were running a Ponzi scheme together.

[365] I mean, he took 19 years in prison and never sold Jeffrey Epstein out.

[366] And then he comes out saying, hey, we were supposed to split it.

[367] And Jeffrey turned his back on me. Well, of course he did.

[368] You were going to prison.

[369] So is that his motivation to stay quiet?

[370] Is that if one of them stayed out, someone could control the money and then divvy it back up?

[371] That's what Hoffenberg says.

[372] I don't really know.

[373] But after Hoffenberg is when Epstein meets Les Wexner.

[374] Yes, and this is a relationship I want to know everything you know about.

[375] Because, again, just watching the show, I was like, okay, well, Epstein was definitely sleeping with the sky.

[376] Give some context as people may not have seen the dock.

[377] So who is he?

[378] Yes.

[379] So Leslie Wexner created a bunch of huge brands, Victoria's Secret.

[380] Yeah, limited.

[381] Limited.

[382] So a billionaire, many times over.

[383] Right.

[384] And he also started some weird real estate stuff, right?

[385] He was building like McMansion communities and stuff.

[386] And he himself is gay, right?

[387] Is that, or is that an allegedly gay?

[388] Or is he openly gay?

[389] No, I think it's allegedly because he has his wife and children.

[390] And so I think it's allegedly still.

[391] Okay.

[392] So allegedly he's gay.

[393] And what's factual is he for some reason allows Epstein to be his business manager and make all kinds of financial decisions for.

[394] right in guide where his money goes and he clearly must have siphoned off a ton of his money right because there's really no explanation of why epstein ends up with 600 million dollars or whatever it is other than he had to have been ripping off wexner yeah so i think right before epstein meets wexner epstein discloses some financials that he's worth somewhere between 11 and 20 million dollars so epstein has accumulated some some wealth but not the extraordinary wealth that we see later and then he meets Wexner.

[395] And what I understand is that Wexner hires an investigator, does some legwork on Epstein, because he's looking for somebody who's sharp to manage his business.

[396] And they learn that Epstein is kind of a fraudsteries, this grifter who sold a bill of goods to the Dalton School, to Bear Stearns, and still, Wexner hires him.

[397] So I guess he fits the bill of whatever he's looking for.

[398] That's interesting.

[399] Wexner hires him.

[400] And very early on, hires him to manage not just an account here or there, but his entire life, all of his companies, he's basically going to manage everything from a tax standpoint, from an estate planning standpoint, everything.

[401] Again, I'm sorry, I know it's all allegedly, but I cannot at all find a motivation for someone as savvy is Wexner, who built such a Goliath successful series of companies hands over the entire empire to somebody if he's not head over heels in love with the person.

[402] I just, I can't see it happening.

[403] It doesn't make any sense.

[404] And I don't know if you've heard the rumors that I have, but I talked to many people who said, look, everybody in New York at the time said that they were lovers.

[405] I don't know that it's true, you know, and nobody would testify to it, but they were saying they're lovers.

[406] Everybody knows that.

[407] Yeah.

[408] Again, I have a business manager.

[409] I never gave him an apartment in New York.

[410] You know, I give the guy a percentage, and that's how it works.

[411] You don't give your business manager a house.

[412] Especially the largest townhouse in all of New York City, right?

[413] The most incredible house on the whole island.

[414] Does it make a lot of sense?

[415] So he charges him a flat fee, which I think is over $100 million.

[416] So Epstein's wealth goes, you know, through the roof overnight.

[417] And then Epstein at some point in time realizes that Wexner is this rich guy who signed a power of attorney.

[418] He's turned everything over to Epstein.

[419] And he doesn't watch his own money.

[420] So Epstein starts setting up charities and siphoning some money over, letting it sit there for a while and then says, okay, look, this guy's really not paying attention.

[421] And he just starts stealing from Wexter.

[422] I mean, I think a lot of it, and I don't know how many tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions.

[423] Is there a paper trail of that?

[424] Like, had he lived and gone to trial, is that something that is well documented?

[425] I think that there probably is a paper trail.

[426] I don't think that Wester would ever give it up.

[427] It's embarrassing to him that he got, yeah.

[428] I think that they say that's why cons are so successful, right?

[429] Is that the people are too embarrassed to go to the authorities in most cases.

[430] Well, I think what Epstein realized is it's a lot more lucrative to steal from the super rich than it is to go, you know, rob a convenience store.

[431] That's, it doesn't make any sense, especially when someone's a billionaire and isn't going to miss $300 million.

[432] And has a secret.

[433] Right.

[434] Yeah.

[435] Right.

[436] It allegedly has a secret.

[437] I got to keep saying that word so that guy doesn't sue me. So also there was - We'll just call this episode allegedly.

[438] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[439] An alleged interview about alleged criminals.

[440] But didn't he?

[441] he either gave him or only charged him two million bucks for this, I don't know, 14 ,000 square foot house in that neighborhood and then he was allowed to sell it at some point for 15 million or whatever the hell it was, right?

[442] Like some crazy other creative ways to just give him tons of money.

[443] Yes.

[444] And over time, we did learn of other very wealthy people who were scammed by Epstein of $10 million here, $20 million there.

[445] I mean, he really was this grifter who had so enmeshed himself with like the upper echelon people.

[446] And because he had this clout from connections, there was this believability and credibility that he had, which allowed him to kind of pull off one scam after another.

[447] You know, if Gillen Maxwell knows anything, it's about those scams.

[448] Now, is she going to give information about those scams to reduce her sentence and her prosecutor's really going to care enough about them to kind of reduce her sentence for what is now sex trafficking.

[449] I don't know, but the secrets do lie with her.

[450] You know, if anybody knows the paper, it's her.

[451] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[452] We've all been there.

[453] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[454] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[455] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[456] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[457] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[458] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[459] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[460] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[461] What's up, guys?

[462] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[463] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[464] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[465] And I don't mean just friends.

[466] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[467] The list goes on.

[468] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[469] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[470] Okay, we'll catch people up.

[471] So if they don't know, so in 2008, he actually was tried for this.

[472] And he struck this insane plea deal with Alexander Acosta, the federal prosecutor.

[473] And he negotiates a, what, a 13 -month sentence.

[474] And then he later pays off the people involved there and he's in there for 13 months, but he's not there all day long.

[475] He can come and go from this jail cell and he's, but the most shocking part of the plea deal, right, is that Acosta gave him immunity for all co -conspirators.

[476] Yeah, I mean, that's one shocking thing.

[477] There's so many shocking things about it.

[478] It's like everything's shocking about it, right?

[479] Named and unnamed, right?

[480] So they're going to give immunity to anybody he has conspired to commit crimes with, and we will learn about.

[481] Does that ever done?

[482] I mean, that's the first time I've ever heard that.

[483] One, it's never done, but also it was in exchange for nothing.

[484] Right.

[485] You're not getting anything in return.

[486] What's the consideration for that?

[487] That's what makes no sense.

[488] Yeah, I mean, did they think that he was going to mount such a legal battle that it was going to end up dragging on and costing the government so much money that could have even possibly been financially motivated to strike that deal?

[489] No, I don't see how that's possible.

[490] I mean, when you really look at the paperwork, you know, we filed the lawsuit against the U .S. Attorney's Office for the purpose of invalidating that illegal deal.

[491] You know, it's an immunity agreement that was struck behind the victim's back, which violates the crime victim's rights act.

[492] So we filed it on behalf of the victims.

[493] They had located and already had evidence that at least 40 minors were sexually abused in traffic by Jeffrey Epstein.

[494] They had prepared a 53 -page indictment.

[495] And then Jeffrey Epstein informs them of his vast connections.

[496] I mean, you see that in the trail.

[497] He hires a bunch of very well -known lawyers who know a lot of people that are involved in the prosecution and Department of Justice and things like that.

[498] And then all of a sudden, you see it go from an indictment to an immunity agreement or the first drafts of the immunity agreement.

[499] And at the same time, how are we going to keep the victims in the dark and from knowing about this so that there aren't any objections to it?

[500] I mean, otherwise, this is all going to blow up in our face.

[501] And they very carefully choreograph how that whole thing is going to go away and no one's going to know about it.

[502] Yeah.

[503] You know, so then it takes Courtney Wilde walking into my office and telling me this, which sounded so unbelievable, I say, look, we just got to sue them.

[504] So we sued the U .S. Attorney's Office, which that lawsuit then kind of grows into everybody in the world knowing just how ugly this deal was.

[505] Okay, so, Bradley, were you already involved representing some of the victims when that was all happening?

[506] Or did your involvement come out of that?

[507] Yeah, there were no lawyers representing the victims when that was all happening.

[508] But that was kind of the point.

[509] It's like Epstein's lawyers start convincing the government to make it go away.

[510] The victims were being told, this is a massive investigation.

[511] Just be patient.

[512] And they're being sent letters that say it's a massive investigation, be patient.

[513] And so they don't know to do anything.

[514] They're just waiting for a trial.

[515] And meanwhile, this immunity agreement is signed.

[516] Well, one of the victims, Courtney Wilde comes to me and says, hey, look, what's going on?

[517] I can't get anybody to respond.

[518] And so I start trying on her behalf to get in touch with the government, who's giving me information that sounds very fishy, which leads to the lawsuit to try to disrupt the immunity agreement.

[519] And we find out in court that it was a secret agreement that had been signed nine months ago.

[520] So we were like late to the party, you know, that they had kept the victims in the dark too long.

[521] Yeah.

[522] What was the outcome of that, you suing the Justice Department?

[523] After 10 years, the judge ruled in February of 2019.

[524] So I filed that June 2008.

[525] February 2019, the judge finally rules that the government did violate the victim's rights.

[526] So we won, 11 years later.

[527] Was there any kind of financial compensation tied to that verdict?

[528] No, because there was not supposed to be any financial compensation.

[529] It was all about invalidating the agreement.

[530] Oh, okay.

[531] So after we prove that their rights were violated, we say, okay, the remedy is to invalidate the agreement.

[532] And then when Jeffrey Epstein died in jail, the judge said, well, it's moot.

[533] Nothing you can do about it.

[534] And we said, wait, it's not moot because he also got immunity for all these co -conspirators.

[535] Yeah.

[536] So we should still invalidate this thing.

[537] We have a bunch of co -conspirators running around who also can't be prosecuted now.

[538] Yeah.

[539] Now, in all of your investigation and your dealings with him and, and you're privy to all kinds of information that most of us aren't, is the co -conspirator element factually substantiated?

[540] Like, is it likely that we will see some co -conspirators go down?

[541] Well, I mean, I think that you're seeing one in Gieland, you know?

[542] Right.

[543] And if anybody really digs into the non -prosecution agreement, it covered crimes in a certain period of time, 2001 to 2007, in Florida.

[544] So you're going to see people prosecuted in New York because Jeffrey Epstein, he didn't just come to Florida to commit his crimes.

[545] They happened everywhere.

[546] I think what you won't see are co -conspirators that are arrested and prosecuted in crimes in Florida that we know that they committed because of the non -prosecution agreement unless we're successful, potentially at the U .S. Supreme Court level, of getting it invalidated.

[547] So that is still binding, huh?

[548] So in Florida, they still can't prosecute anyone from that window of time.

[549] Right now, they can't unless we win our appeal.

[550] And I'm not asking you to get in hot water, but do you know of some of the ones in Florida that would be prosecuted?

[551] Oh, yeah.

[552] I mean, look, of the 40 victims in Florida, I probably represent 30 of them.

[553] And I know some of the people that were involved in their abuse and were definitely conspiring with Epstein or even engaged in the yaks.

[554] Now, what's your take?

[555] This is very dicey.

[556] So Bill Clinton.

[557] That's a good start of the Yeah, exactly.

[558] Yeah.

[559] Yeah.

[560] I just think it would be, I think people would be pissed if I didn't bring this up.

[561] Yeah, let's do it.

[562] Bill Clinton seems to be on 27 flights or something like that, 24 flights, right?

[563] At least.

[564] It seems clear he went to his island.

[565] Because I like Bill Clinton and I'm a liberal, I'm inclined to make the argument.

[566] Well, tons of people took meetings with Bill Cosby.

[567] That doesn't mean they were complicit in what Bill Cosby was doing.

[568] And he didn't do himself any favors acting like he hadn't even flown on the plane.

[569] I mean, what are your thoughts about that?

[570] I mean, again, people could have clearly been to his island and not been pedophiles.

[571] And also, it's not a great look to have been at that island.

[572] Yeah, I mean, I think that Bill Clinton's one of those people that we have to be careful to call it like it is with the evidence and not jump to any conclusions.

[573] So I'll just kind of lay out what I know and what the facts are.

[574] In 2009, when I learned that Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Clinton at one point in time were decently close and that Clinton was at Jeffrey Epstein's homes, had pictures in his homes, had pictures on his plane, had flown on the plane many times.

[575] I asked to take his deposition.

[576] I asked to speak with him.

[577] and have been met with refusals, usually through his lawyer, but hasn't offered anything up.

[578] I do know, after speaking with a lot of people, including those who were in his presence on some of the trips that I have not heard one thing that he ever engaged in any sexual acts, especially with anybody underage.

[579] Well, that's a big relief.

[580] That's nice to hear, yeah.

[581] I think that's important that people know that, you know.

[582] Yeah.

[583] But I also know that he was on the plane with Epstein and as, co -conspirators and some of the victims that Epstein abused.

[584] And so he made observations that it would seem like, again, let's just be a good person.

[585] Tell us what you know.

[586] Yeah.

[587] So I'd like to hear it, but I don't think that anybody should jump to these crazy conclusions, which just so far, to my knowledge, aren't really supported by, you know, by evidence.

[588] Okay.

[589] One of the most disturbing things to me was that, you know, when I wanted to take Gielin Maxwell's deposition, and she escaped the deposition the first time by telling me she was leaving the country because her mom was sick and never going to come back.

[590] And then I'm walking in my own kitchen and I look at one of my wife's magazines and it's open and I see Bill Clinton and I go, holy shit, I zoom in and I see it's Guilin Maxwell front row at Chelsea's wedding and he's walking her down the aisle and I go, help me out.

[591] Just give me some info.

[592] Well, look, I was once friend.

[593] with a guy that's currently being tried for three rapes in L .A. And it's deplorable and I hate it.

[594] But I had nothing to do with that guy's secret.

[595] I certainly didn't know anything about that.

[596] So it is tricky, man. I think it's extra tricky with the Clintons and why there's a constant denial of everything because I do think they get the brunt of a lot of conspiracies.

[597] There's so many people after them all the time that I think they're at the point where they're like, we just got to deny everything because we're going to.

[598] to get entrapped in something, whether it's true or whether it's not true, it's a lose -lose for us.

[599] So we have to deny.

[600] I'm not saying that's right, but I think that's part of this whole system with them.

[601] Well, also, they are in a position where they have this foundation and they are grooming donors.

[602] So people with money, I'm sure, have access to them as is how it works.

[603] And it's not great.

[604] It's not a great look.

[605] It's not ideal.

[606] No, it's an allegedly bad look.

[607] Yes.

[608] Okay, so right before his death, did he transfer all of his assets to his brother?

[609] Is that what happened?

[610] No, I mean, that's one of those bad news reports, just fake news.

[611] Oh, okay.

[612] Yeah, so two days before he died, he set up his will, which it seems the only real legal ramifications were that if anything that's left over from his estate that was set up in the Virgin Islands, which has roughly $650 million in it, after all the claims are paid, let's say all of the victims that make claims against the estate, after they're paid, then the money will go into a trust.

[613] We still don't know who the beneficiaries of the trust are.

[614] I assume that his brother might be one of them, but I have good reason to believe there are many beneficiaries.

[615] I don't know who they are.

[616] But that's all that he really did is set this will up.

[617] But he didn't do it to deprive any victims of the assets because we're making claims against the estate.

[618] A program has been set up, which I helped them to set up so that victims could be compensated without going through 10 years more of litigation.

[619] How's that work out?

[620] Like, yeah, what's the process there?

[621] So, you know, early on it was he dies.

[622] And so his estate basically stands.

[623] in his shoes, and each of the victims could sue the estate.

[624] And we worked with the estate lawyers to set up a non -adversarial process where they could submit a claim.

[625] There would be a program administrator who's kind of a neutral party set up, evaluate the claim, make an offer to the victim based on her particular circumstances, the damages that she shows.

[626] She can accept it or reject it and file a lawsuit.

[627] But what victim right now wants to be re -victimized through litigation with good lawyers who are going to drag them through this.

[628] And he's not even alive.

[629] Yeah, you can't even see him suffer.

[630] You can't even see him suffer.

[631] Now it's just his money.

[632] So the process is set up hopefully so that it can remain confidential, at least as to the crimes he committed against them.

[633] Yeah.

[634] He can't go to jail.

[635] He's dead.

[636] You know, so I think it's going to be a successful program.

[637] We've designed it to be very victim friendly.

[638] Have any victims receive compensation yet?

[639] It's only been up and running two weeks.

[640] Oh.

[641] Okay.

[642] Yeah.

[643] It took us about 70.

[644] months to get it set up in a way that the estate agreed to.

[645] We representing the victims agreed to and the program administrators agreed to.

[646] Now, well, you personally are representing 56 and then there's there's more, obviously, that you don't represent, yeah.

[647] I think overall there's probably going to be 125 that make claims.

[648] Okay, so even if you start with $650 million, 100 people making claims, you know, yeah, I don't know how there would be any money left in this estate for anyone to chop up.

[649] If the program is administered fairly and they're really evaluating some of the damages that were really done to some of these people, which, you know, as you can imagine, there's a continuum.

[650] Some of them have done okay.

[651] Others have not at all.

[652] It's been devastating to them.

[653] I don't see how there would be any money left either.

[654] Well, there's so much hard data that victims of that type of abuse, just horrendous outcomes of that kind of abuse.

[655] That's interesting.

[656] You say that because going through these cases, you know, these are women who don't know one another.

[657] The common denominator is what Jeffrey Epstein did to them, but the consequences are so similar.

[658] The number that self -medicated with drugs and got into drug addiction or got into escorting.

[659] Yeah.

[660] Any number of outcomes where people are going to be permanently changed.

[661] Oh, it's so horrendous.

[662] Now, well, let's just throw Prince Andrew out there.

[663] Is he being sued?

[664] He hasn't been sued yet.

[665] You know, we have clients who met Prince Andrew.

[666] He's his own worst enemy, really.

[667] You know, this is a guy who did, it was the worst advice ever to do that stupid interview that he did where he tried to say, you know, that photograph of him and Virginia Roberts and Gillen Maxwell was like Photoshop because his thumb was too big or something.

[668] It was so silly.

[669] Oh, my God.

[670] Can't you just say, I did it?

[671] She was 17 years old.

[672] 17 years old is the age of consent in England.

[673] and move on with your life.

[674] Yeah.

[675] But he didn't do that.

[676] You know, the denial thing, it doesn't look good, especially when there's a photo of it.

[677] It's like, are you kidding?

[678] And then we have been asking him for years to come over and give a deposition.

[679] Tell us what you know.

[680] And he hasn't.

[681] And now we have the U .S. Attorney's Office basically begging him to come over and he's saying, I really want to, but I don't know what, but like I can't find the United States.

[682] It's just too warm there this time of year.

[683] Yeah.

[684] It's just really hot.

[685] God.

[686] Now, okay, his death.

[687] I'm personally of the opinion that he, I mean, when you really understand just how insanely lavish his lifestyle was, I mean, each one of these houses they showed was more fantastic than the last.

[688] The fact that he was, what do you have, a business, Boeing business jet or something?

[689] Yeah.

[690] You know, he has the most outrageous airplane.

[691] I mean, this is me personally.

[692] I think that he sat in that cinder block box.

[693] for a while and said, I'm not going to win this one, and I cannot live here.

[694] This is not an option.

[695] And I am incapable of eating crow, and I refuse to go down that road.

[696] To me, suicide seems like a very plausible O -Cams -Raser outcome to that scenario.

[697] That's exactly right.

[698] That's not as much fun as all of the sensational rumors out there, right?

[699] That's why I made a point to put that into the book that I wrote because there were all these fantastical stories and I thought, listen, I've met this guy many times and he is all about control.

[700] He has to control everybody.

[701] He can't be controlled for a second.

[702] And he's smart.

[703] It's not like he was delusional.

[704] Obviously, he saw that he had wiggle room in 2008 and he played it out, but there was no wiggle room at this point.

[705] Well, I think that until his bond was denied, he was going to hang in there.

[706] Once his bond was denied, he realized I'm never getting out.

[707] I'm going to control the last.

[708] thing I can control and that's how long I stay here.

[709] Yes, I completely agree.

[710] Now, on the other hand, I think if he had stayed there long enough, somebody might have killed him.

[711] There's no doubt in my mind that he committed suicide.

[712] Well, I'm told they don't like pedophiles in prisons.

[713] I don't think he had many friends there.

[714] I can't imagine that they would have liked a billionaire.

[715] Yeah.

[716] I think that, you know, those conspiracy theories made for some funny memes, but it just doesn't make any sense.

[717] Yeah, yeah.

[718] I think that we're probably going to find that he may have, buddied up with the guards because remember he still was a very charismatic guy and we do have these two guards where at the other end of the hall saying they checked on him every 30 minutes and the video shows they never got out of their seat for eight hours i wouldn't doubt it if he said hey guys i'm cool down here you don't have to come down so that you know he was sure that he would have time to kill himself yeah which is why they're under investigation or let's just even go for an even more human thing which is like i don't want to get out of this chair and i don't really give a fuck if that guy kills himself.

[719] I mean, that would be my opinion.

[720] Yeah.

[721] I'm not, I'm not too incentivized to make sure this guy stays alive.

[722] And I think the world might be better if he's not.

[723] I mean, you know, there's any number of reasons maybe why they didn't do a great job checking in on him.

[724] Okay, now your book, Relentless Pursuit, My Fight for the Victims of Jeffrey Epstein.

[725] When you wrote it, you know, you've spent more than a decade of your life involved in this.

[726] Did you learn anything about your own experience in writing this book?

[727] Yeah.

[728] I mean, I wrote it for a couple of reasons.

[729] One, I had learned that there were others that were trying to capitalize on this sensational story and we're going to write a book, you know, this book about Jeffrey Epstein and the legal process and everything.

[730] And I thought, that doesn't make any sense.

[731] It's going to be inaccurate.

[732] Nobody knows the story.

[733] I was the one in the trenches.

[734] Somebody's going to piece together news stories and police reports.

[735] That's not fair to the victims.

[736] I think that people need to understand who the victims and survivors were.

[737] how courageous they were, how we ultimately trapped Jeffrey Epstein and got him arrested, how we brought him to justice from the inside.

[738] So part of my motivation was, I don't want to let somebody else screw this up.

[739] Right.

[740] You know, so that was my first kind of complaint around the office was, I can't believe that somebody else is going to take this story and screw it up.

[741] It's not fair to our clients.

[742] And then also, as we were doing it, it was cathartic.

[743] You know, I needed finality.

[744] Yeah.

[745] You know, because as much as I did.

[746] didn't like him.

[747] I still got to know him well and thought, man, he's really deprived everybody, my clients, and me of we spent so much time getting him here and now he's gone.

[748] Yeah, I mean, aside from the victims, I can't imagine there was anyone on Planned Earth more upset.

[749] He killed himself than you.

[750] I mean, you were this close to a decades of work and being able to look at him in a courtroom, you found guilty.

[751] You know, that's what.

[752] what the 10 years was about.

[753] And fucking, man, that would frustrate me. Yeah, beyond frustrated.

[754] To the point that my office, you know, we run a very organized trial office where we're constantly chasing bad guys and let's just move on to the next one.

[755] And I was finding myself going, I can't believe somebody else is going to screw this story up.

[756] And the world will never know exactly how it was that we ultimately trapped him.

[757] And I complained enough to where one of my partners, Brittany Henderson says, look, why don't you just write the book?

[758] Why don't we just do this.

[759] And I say, yeah, but we don't have time to do this.

[760] She says, look, our work day ends at 6 p .m. I will literally stay here and listen to you.

[761] I said, all right, I'll start talking at 6 p .m. And we will just hammer this out.

[762] And that's what we did.

[763] I would start talking.

[764] She would type and we would start fighting over things because I remembered certain things.

[765] I would say, like, this is how the deposition went.

[766] And she would go look at the transcript and say, yeah, that's not really how it went.

[767] The mind is a tricky place.

[768] In my memory.

[769] I thought it would that way.

[770] But we hammered this thing out in about six weeks, and we would do it from 6 p .m. to 4 in the morning.

[771] But we were proud of the fact that, like, hey, six weeks later, we sent it to Simon & Schuster and said, hey, what do you think?

[772] Do we have anything here?

[773] Is it a mess?

[774] And they were like, it's great.

[775] We love it.

[776] You put the story together.

[777] And I just felt good that I did it as opposed to we let somebody else screw the story up.

[778] And did you have any cooperation from any of the victims you represent?

[779] Were there women that wanted to be a part of that?

[780] All of them.

[781] All of them.

[782] Every single one that I went to and said, hey, look, I think that it's important that this aspect of the story is told, every one of them was all on board.

[783] We agree.

[784] I mean, the story needs to be told the right way.

[785] That's great.

[786] Yeah, I have to imagine it's an empowering experience to, although I'm sure embarrassing and shameful and all these things, also empowering to say out loud what someone did you.

[787] And I know in my own experience with being honest about being molested and stuff, it really certainly takes the weight off to just have.

[788] it out there and then see that people don't think you're any of these things you feared they would think you were no and plus we painted them the way that they ought have been painted they were heroes they were heroes to me it was like we needed their voice to make all this happen yeah the thing I felt most bad was I could tell in their interviews that they had some level of shame for their own victimhood and then yet an entirely different bag of guilt and shame for including other people in.

[789] That's really the worst thing he did to them.

[790] Yeah.

[791] Oh, yeah.

[792] It really is, yeah, to make them participate in more is probably so hard for them.

[793] Because that's the guilt that no matter how much therapy they have, it's almost impossible to erase.

[794] You know, but you cope with the abuse that you suffered, but the fact that you brought your friends into it, it's like you're living with this additional weight.

[795] And that was his psychological hold.

[796] He created the system to make them complicit and make them feel indebted and make them feel like they were part of the problem.

[797] Yes.

[798] That was no accident.

[799] That was something he did intentionally.

[800] Yeah.

[801] I mean, boy, there's just so many layers to this.

[802] I got to be honest, when I started watching the the documentary, I was like, I don't know if I can go down this road, you know?

[803] Yeah.

[804] It was the corruption that interested me so much, the abuse of power, how it shined a light on how much corruption still really is existing on that level that I think even I was naive to.

[805] I mean, you know, I read Killing Pablo, this great book about Pablo Escobar.

[806] And the most sensational part of the whole thing is that he said, okay, I'll surrender if you allow me to build my own prison, which he did.

[807] And he built tunnels so he could leave whenever he wanted.

[808] and he played fucking soccer games in town.

[809] And then he came back and the prison was gorgeous and had big screen TVs.

[810] And I thought, you know, that is something that could only happen in Columbia from a guy that has $8 billion in 1988.

[811] Like that's such a unique situation that that could happen.

[812] And to see that it virtually happened in Florida, it was so shocking.

[813] Yeah, well, I went into it so naive too.

[814] I had just come out of the prosecutor's office myself and decided I'm going to represent crime victims in civil cases.

[815] and when Courtney Wilde came to me, I thought I'm going to make one telephone call to the U .S. Attorney's Office, and they're going to say, yes, it's this enormous, you know, investigation.

[816] Be patient, like we said in the letter, and it's over.

[817] You know, I didn't think that, wait, the corruption's real.

[818] I mean, her belief that something nefarious is going on is real, and it turned out worse than anybody could have ever imagined.

[819] So in the event that the Supreme Court ends up throwing out that deal entirely, right, which you say could happen in the future here, Do you think that they'll then lead to any kind of investigation of Acosta or anyone else around him?

[820] Or do you think we'll ever get an answer as to how that deal was made?

[821] You know, unfortunately, I think that the most thorough investigation that will actually be done is going to have to be done by some investigative journalist that cares to get to the bottom of it.

[822] Ronan Farrow.

[823] Yeah, Ronan, Farrow, if you're listening.

[824] Yeah, Ronan, figure this out, man. I mean, it could be that he was.

[825] just stupid, right?

[826] I mean, that's, no one would like, no, you're shaking your head, no. Okay.

[827] He's not stupid.

[828] Okay.

[829] No, it's not that.

[830] There's much more to it.

[831] How hard was it to have to edit out things in the book that you know you want to say, but that legally you can't say?

[832] Was that the most heartbreaking part of the book?

[833] So painful.

[834] We wrote the book in six weeks and the editing process was four months.

[835] And you're taking out things that you're going, you've got to be kidding me. I mean, we know this from three different sources, but if there's not a document, then all of a sudden we can't say it.

[836] I mean, come on.

[837] It is a painful thing that the truth sometimes you just can't, you can't get it all out.

[838] There's a couple things about him that shocked me that seemed inconsistent with him.

[839] In general, he did shy away from publicity, and that does seem to be the thing that traps most people, right?

[840] As people want to be recognized, in general, he did keep a pretty low profile, right?

[841] That is a guy that could have been doing interviews every other day.

[842] Sort of.

[843] But remember, so he set it up so that it would look that way, right?

[844] That he's kind of, he wants to stay out of the limelight.

[845] But he has Gielin out there who is pumping him up and making him even more important.

[846] You know, he's the Wizard of Oz.

[847] He's almost too important to even interact with the most powerful people in the world.

[848] But she's out there telling everybody just how philanthropic and powerful and all masterful that he is.

[849] So it was kind of a ploy that, hey, I don't really want to be that well known when he really has his minions on the street.

[850] He did it by proxy.

[851] Yeah, exactly.

[852] So what's ahead for her?

[853] I'm just curious.

[854] Like, what's the next step?

[855] They have taken her into custody.

[856] They wouldn't have done that if they didn't already have their case, right?

[857] They don't arrest someone before they have their case.

[858] So they already have their case against her, I would imagine.

[859] Yep.

[860] They have charged her with six crimes, which relate to enticement of minors for sex.

[861] on three victims dating back to the 90s and then charged her with perjury for two counts of lying under oath and civil depositions that we took.

[862] And the trial is set for next July.

[863] So she's denied bail.

[864] She's sitting in jail waiting for her trial.

[865] I mean, that's all that's really left for her.

[866] Are you allowed to tell me you've met her?

[867] And are you allowed to tell me what you're just feeling about her was?

[868] Sure.

[869] I mean, in meeting Gillen Maxwell, I would say that she's one of these people who walks in the room and tries to make everybody believe she's the most important person in the room, but also at the same time that she's better than everyone in the room.

[870] I mean, that's the feeling that she tried to give off, you know, in the deposition room.

[871] She's too important.

[872] She's too important for the whole process.

[873] Right.

[874] She's above the whole thing.

[875] Did she have any of the charisma that Epstein had?

[876] I didn't see it, but I've heard about it, you know?

[877] I mean, I've heard from many people that she's the life of every party and she's a chameleon.

[878] She can blend in with anybody.

[879] But she was on the defensive and depositions are not comfortable for anybody, no matter who you are.

[880] Yeah.

[881] Oh, my God.

[882] By the way, it was you that asked the question about his fucking penis, right?

[883] Was that you?

[884] Oh, what a moment.

[885] What did they say it would look like a potato with a...

[886] Oh, yeah.

[887] Some horrendous egg shaped.

[888] Egg shaped.

[889] Oh, my goodness.

[890] So most of the ridiculous questions that were asked to get under his skin were me in depositions.

[891] But that particular one, every time we got a deposition of him, you had to assemble this large group of attorneys, which was a real pain in the ass.

[892] He assembled this large group for that deposition, and it was another lawyer's deposition.

[893] That was the first question.

[894] Oh, boy.

[895] Oh, boy.

[896] We were not in that room 10 minutes.

[897] We had just set up, first question, is it true, sir, that you have an egg -shaped penis?

[898] Yeah, because he had to imagine, wow, that's the icebreaker.

[899] This thing is going to get even gnarlier.

[900] But you see Epstein's face, he kind of smirks at it, like, I don't know, do I?

[901] Yeah, yeah.

[902] Now, was drugs a part of this whole thing?

[903] Not at all.

[904] Epstein's never drank, used drugs in his life.

[905] Oh, my God.

[906] Absolutely against it.

[907] And when he would catch any of the girls on the island, he would send him home.

[908] Really?

[909] Wow.

[910] That was something you were not allowed to have anywhere in his presence.

[911] Well, that would diminish his control.

[912] probably if they were totally right and i've heard some of his girls actually got kicked off the island for having cocaine there but although i do know of some of his friends that he hung out with who had cocaine problems in fact but a kind of funny story in 2009 or 2010 i went to serve with a zapina one of his friends in new york and the process server literally walked up to his friend to serve him and he turned around and put his hands behind his back he like thought he's being arrested.

[913] I think it was just paranoid on Coke.

[914] Oh, boy, oh, boy, oh, boy.

[915] Well, Bradley, I'm very excited to read your book, and I am glad that you are attempting to give the gals closure and yourself closure, and it must have just been the most frustrating outcome that no one got to look in his face and say, fuck you, man, you did not get away with this.

[916] Yeah, that's true.

[917] I mean, it was nice to see him at the bail hearings and things like that, but you're right.

[918] The ultimate justice, just we didn't get it.

[919] And I commend you for just staying on the trail the whole time.

[920] I mean, he could have tired people out.

[921] You know, he could have won the war of attrition.

[922] And I'm glad you're a hound dog and you wouldn't get off of it.

[923] I appreciate it.

[924] Well, great to meet you, Bradley.

[925] I really appreciate you walking us through that and giving us some insight on one of the more compelling, crazy, horrifying, you know, stories of the last 20 years.

[926] It's wild.

[927] Thanks for having me on.

[928] I really appreciate it.

[929] Yeah, absolutely.

[930] I hope we chat again.

[931] I would love it.

[932] All right.

[933] Bye.

[934] See, Monica.

[935] Bye, next.

[936] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[937] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[938] I woke up so early today.

[939] Oh, my God, because we had a big guest.

[940] And I was nervous.

[941] Yeah.

[942] Yeah, yeah.

[943] I sprang awake at 5 a .m. And I was like, time to work.

[944] Like you got to get your shit together.

[945] You only have six hours.

[946] It's a big week for us.

[947] We had a big guest today and we have a. Titanic guest tomorrow.

[948] That's not a Leo DiCaprio hint.

[949] No, it's not Leo DiCaprio.

[950] Although we would love to have him on.

[951] Yeah, Leo?

[952] We'd love to have you.

[953] Leo, come out.

[954] He's a cute boy.

[955] He is a cute boy.

[956] I'm hung out with him like six times and I've never had a conversation with him.

[957] Really?

[958] Yeah.

[959] We have a couple of mutual friends.

[960] He's kind of playing hard to get.

[961] He is, well, it's working.

[962] Yeah, he's got me on the hook.

[963] Yeah, you're all a flustered.

[964] I do love him, man. He's so fucking talented.

[965] Oh, I know.

[966] He's such a big star that I always think I'm not going to be able to stop thinking that it's Leonardo DiCaprio.

[967] Does that make sense?

[968] And then every time I do, every time I'm like, oh, he's that fucking good.

[969] Yeah.

[970] He's just got the cutest face.

[971] Oh, it's a very cute face.

[972] It's interesting because he was like, boyishly cute, but he got very handsome.

[973] Yeah, that's, that's rare.

[974] Yeah, he had it both.

[975] It's what it is is the grass was greener on both sides for him.

[976] He had boyish, good looks, and now it's super handsome.

[977] How come?

[978] How come what?

[979] He doesn't want to marry you?

[980] Well, yeah, how come that?

[981] Well, maybe he does.

[982] We'll see what it's like when he comes on at some point.

[983] Yeah, I think the only reason he doesn't want to marry you is he doesn't met you.

[984] That's nice of you to say.

[985] Yeah, that's my guess.

[986] You're lying so hot.

[987] I want you to marry him because I guess he's got dinosaur bones.

[988] in his house.

[989] I heard he's got like a T -Rex skull.

[990] Ooh, and you want me to like grab it for you?

[991] No, I just want you to invite me to your new house with Leo and let me look at that dinosaur.

[992] Okay.

[993] I know he won't talk to me. I'll go over there.

[994] I'll probably have like five, six dinners with you guys and nothing.

[995] First of all, I feel like you'd feel protective, but also you'd feel...

[996] Well, if you start dating him?

[997] Yeah.

[998] Oh, sure, I'd have to shake him down in a way that I never would normally need to shake him down because I'm your dad.

[999] Yeah, I know.

[1000] And my dad is.

[1001] is not going to shake him down at all.

[1002] Your real dad.

[1003] Yeah.

[1004] Yeah, your biological father.

[1005] But not your father who raised you.

[1006] Of you, my dad.

[1007] Yeah.

[1008] Current.

[1009] My current dad.

[1010] I don't like saying that because that makes it sound.

[1011] That's true.

[1012] It's got to be something about regional dad.

[1013] Like I'm here basically is what's going on.

[1014] Stand in.

[1015] My stand in dad would be you and you'd be shaking him down.

[1016] But he would be so good.

[1017] at playing hard to get, that you kind of wouldn't be able to do that.

[1018] And then you're going to get mad.

[1019] I could see you getting really mad in this scenario.

[1020] Well, it could happen.

[1021] Yeah.

[1022] Because here's the thing.

[1023] It doesn't bother me at all that he's never talked to me. When I've been around him, I have recognized the extreme, cumbersome nature of how famous he is.

[1024] Like, it's just on everyone's mind anywhere he's at.

[1025] Yeah.

[1026] It's palpable.

[1027] And so I have always been like, yeah, dude, I fire you, like, the gate's shut.

[1028] I got my friends and I'm good.

[1029] Yeah.

[1030] I want to leave the house and doesn't mean I want to talk to everyone that is around me. Yeah.

[1031] So I've always had no problem with it.

[1032] But now you want my daughter's hand in marriage.

[1033] You got to chat with me or it's going to get physical.

[1034] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1035] I will attack him, I guess, is what I'm saying.

[1036] Oh, and then my real dad's going to have to get involved because he's not going to want his son -in -law and his other dad partner to be upset and, oh, things are going to get real.

[1037] Oh, messy.

[1038] Maybe we should just skip this whole Leo thing.

[1039] Yeah, maybe I should pick someone up.

[1040] Surely someone else has a Tyrannosaurus rex skull in their house.

[1041] Okay, I'll do some research.

[1042] Yeah, find that person and marry them, please.

[1043] You know what is going to be hard?

[1044] Tell me. When I marry Leo, another hardship is I'm going to want him to move into my house.

[1045] Right.

[1046] But he's probably going to want to stay at his house.

[1047] It's most assuredly bigger and of more value.

[1048] If it can house a T -Rex skull and, like, you can walk around it.

[1049] This is going to be a problem with a lot of my husbands, like Brad Pitt.

[1050] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1051] Matt, Ben.

[1052] Brad might live in your house.

[1053] He might like to live in my house.

[1054] Brad feels like he likes cozy, architecturally specimen house.

[1055] Yeah, specimistic.

[1056] He insists on specificistic architectural design.

[1057] Yeah, and that's what my house is.

[1058] Absolutely.

[1059] It screams pessimistic.

[1060] But Leo might not like.

[1061] like it because there's probably not that much space for his dinosaurs.

[1062] There isn't a room in your house that would accommodate a T -Rex.

[1063] Maybe the living room, but I don't even know.

[1064] I think the width, it makes it hard to walk around in the living room.

[1065] We're going to have so many fights about this because I wanted to...

[1066] His big cumbersome T -Rex skull.

[1067] Yes, and I wanted to look aesthetically pleasing.

[1068] Wabiwob just arrived.

[1069] And he's never here.

[1070] Yeah, he's...

[1071] He doesn't trust us.

[1072] No, that's not what it is.

[1073] He's just being really careful and doing the right thing.

[1074] and we're proud of him.

[1075] And he thinks we're diseased.

[1076] Dax!

[1077] He does.

[1078] Why don't you hop on your little microphone over there?

[1079] Hello.

[1080] Oh, he looks so cute today.

[1081] He's got a little hat on and he looks very little boyish.

[1082] It's not a little hat.

[1083] No, it's a normal size hat.

[1084] It's not like one of those ones that have a propeller that's tiny.

[1085] No, no, no. It's not my son's hat.

[1086] It's not your son's hat, no. Okay, so we're going to pause to make a video.

[1087] We're going to resume.

[1088] Let's resume.

[1089] Are we resumed?

[1090] Oh, yes.

[1091] It's August, and we have been in quarantine.

[1092] We have since mid -February.

[1093] Mm -hmm.

[1094] But a very privileged, luxurious one where we got to travel as a pod once.

[1095] Yep.

[1096] That helped.

[1097] That helped.

[1098] Do you think that was a big shift in everyone's attitude?

[1099] Yeah, it was nice.

[1100] People were in the doldrums just prior to that trip.

[1101] Or I'll speak for myself.

[1102] I was in the doldrums.

[1103] You were.

[1104] I need a little something to look forward to.

[1105] I got a couple of things right now.

[1106] What are they?

[1107] I'm going to do a review of the track hawk.

[1108] What's that?

[1109] It's an SUV that makes 700 horsepower, and I'm going to Willow Springs on Saturday to test that for top gear.

[1110] And I think some of the test will be on the racetrack and some will be on an off -road course because it's an SUV.

[1111] Whoa.

[1112] Yeah, really, really excited, really excited.

[1113] That's fun.

[1114] Can I be on top gear?

[1115] we never have anyone on, but if we had someone on, yes.

[1116] What would I do?

[1117] Jump a car.

[1118] Can you imagine?

[1119] Well, it'd be like, I'll set it up for you.

[1120] I'll make it real easy.

[1121] And it'll just put you in the car and I'll say, just go this speed.

[1122] That's all you got to do.

[1123] Go this speed.

[1124] Go 27 miles an hour and hit the ramp and you'll be fine.

[1125] Wouldn't you feel scared if you knew I was doing that?

[1126] You know, I weirdly have some bizarre confidence that you would do it.

[1127] Really?

[1128] Because you learn to play the drums in like five minutes.

[1129] Okay.

[1130] And ever since you did that, my opinion of what you're capable of is gone through the roof.

[1131] It's way off.

[1132] Like one time.

[1133] No, the level of coordination is I think you'd be great at jumping ship.

[1134] Hmm.

[1135] Okay.

[1136] I'm going to have my agent pass.

[1137] Okay.

[1138] You're passing.

[1139] Yeah.

[1140] Passing on the op. On the potential opportunity.

[1141] So you're excited about that and that.

[1142] And you're excited about what started this whole thing.

[1143] We have a mega guess.

[1144] tomorrow and you're excited about that and I'm excited I dare say this is the best we could possibly do yeah yeah yeah I'll say that too we we really compared it to like we named everyone yeah like would you rather have this person would you rather have this person nobody I know there was a tie yeah yeah yeah it's not Obama it's not Obama but he was the tie he and it was the only tie and I don't even know, which is crazy to say.

[1145] I know.

[1146] Yeah.

[1147] I think I'd actually want to talk more to the person we're going to talk to you tomorrow.

[1148] Oh, man. Oh, man. Yeah.

[1149] The simulation.

[1150] It's the first time I told my mom that I was interviewing someone, but I told my mom over FaceTime yesterday, and she just was like, can you believe it?

[1151] I know.

[1152] From Milford, Michigan.

[1153] And she got pretty excited, and I did too.

[1154] Yeah.

[1155] I told my parents, too, and they were excited.

[1156] Oh, yeah, what'd they say?

[1157] They weren't excited enough.

[1158] Of course not.

[1159] They never will be.

[1160] Exactly.

[1161] Because they're so stinking Indian.

[1162] I know.

[1163] Yeah.

[1164] Well, they're not stinky Indian.

[1165] No, stinking.

[1166] Stinking.

[1167] Yeah, they're not stinky, Indian.

[1168] Some people think Indians are stinky.

[1169] Who thinks that?

[1170] People.

[1171] Are you sure people don't think the food is a fragrant?

[1172] Yeah, so that's all connected.

[1173] Okay.

[1174] Yeah, I get really triggered.

[1175] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand.

[1176] Well, the food has a very distinct fragrance as.

[1177] does spaghetti and pizza.

[1178] Exactly.

[1179] Exactly.

[1180] Yeah.

[1181] I love spaghetti and pizza.

[1182] Me too.

[1183] But we would love Tiki Marsala.

[1184] We had it yesterday.

[1185] Tika.

[1186] Tika.

[1187] Tika.

[1188] Tika.

[1189] Tika Marsala.

[1190] That's right.

[1191] Okay.

[1192] Tika Marcella.

[1193] Well, we had it and it was so delicious.

[1194] Oh my God.

[1195] And then I've proposed having a new doctor's cleanse.

[1196] That's right, which is.

[1197] Tika Marsala superfood cleanse.

[1198] Yeah.

[1199] That's just eating chicken tea.

[1200] Three meals a day.

[1201] Yeah.

[1202] And what I think is, even though I love it so much, there'll be times over the course of the week where I'm like, I'd rather just not eat than have a third portion of this.

[1203] Yeah.

[1204] So it's going to have like a caloric reduction built into it.

[1205] Wow.

[1206] Because you'll just tire of it.

[1207] Sure.

[1208] Anyways, I think it's going to be the next big diet.

[1209] Oh, boy.

[1210] It feels like a superfood.

[1211] I feel like it's got everything you need.

[1212] Like if you only ate Tika Marsala.

[1213] I'm saying it wrong.

[1214] No, you're not.

[1215] You're not.

[1216] I'm trying so hard when I say it.

[1217] Can we just call it TM?

[1218] No. People think Transcendental Meditation.

[1219] We can call what it is because you can do it.

[1220] Okay.

[1221] Tika Marcella.

[1222] Yeah, great.

[1223] Tika Marcella.

[1224] Oh, my.

[1225] Okay.

[1226] Well, this doctor's first Tika Micella superfood cleanse brought to you by this doctor.

[1227] With an inherent caloric reduction element.

[1228] But yeah, I got to imagine it's a very complete, you know, with the rice and the chicken, the protein, the carb, the, you got some tomato.

[1229] The sauce is a, the sauce is a, you know, the sauce is a. is a tomato base.

[1230] That's right.

[1231] So some vitamin C probably in there.

[1232] I think it's a pretty comprehensive dish.

[1233] Probably got some turmeric.

[1234] Tumeric.

[1235] I like calling it turmeric.

[1236] Well, are you going to play the Indian card right now?

[1237] Yeah.

[1238] I think it's turmeric.

[1239] I know, but I think Indians call it turmeric.

[1240] Turric?

[1241] So do they spell it T -U -R?

[1242] I think.

[1243] Oh, my gosh.

[1244] These Indians.

[1245] Now I get it.

[1246] Stinkin Indians.

[1247] I don't like them anymore.

[1248] Any group of people, any population that would pronounce it, turmeric when it's spelled turmeric it's turmeric it's a turmeric it's a turmeric it's not a turmeric uh oh oh it's been a long time it has it has you had a nice reprieve oh god you can't even look over here i can't are you eating your are you eating your terminic like the terminator or is it a turmeric it's not a turmeric oh my Oh, my God.

[1249] All right.

[1250] That's enough.

[1251] Okay, that was good.

[1252] Thanks for letting me do it a little bit.

[1253] Oh, you're welcome.

[1254] Five percent of the audience likes that and they missed it.

[1255] I bet 95 likes it.

[1256] I don't know.

[1257] That seems high.

[1258] I bet they do it.

[1259] It seems a little high.

[1260] They're not sitting here so they don't have to be around me. Yeah.

[1261] I think I look cute when we do it.

[1262] This is the problem.

[1263] Is that I won't stop.

[1264] Yes.

[1265] You're right.

[1266] It's hard.

[1267] It's very, very hard once I start.

[1268] Especially if I find a pot of my voice like that.

[1269] At the back of my throat, it's getting so enticing to do all the time.

[1270] Stop, please.

[1271] Okay, okay, I'm over it.

[1272] Beep, beep.

[1273] Oh, my God.

[1274] She took her headphones up.

[1275] All right, I quit.

[1276] I quit.

[1277] Official quit.

[1278] Man, I mean, look at your reaction.

[1279] It's violent.

[1280] That's why I think only 5 % because you're violently reacting.

[1281] No, because you cannot stop, even when you're trying to stop.

[1282] And there's something horrifying about it.

[1283] Uh -huh.

[1284] Oh, impulse.

[1285] control.

[1286] Like that I might start swinging or something.

[1287] I know.

[1288] I just, oh, you have no control.

[1289] That is true.

[1290] And I feel uncomfortable.

[1291] You don't like seeing me out of control.

[1292] Yeah.

[1293] That's fair.

[1294] Oh boy.

[1295] You barely got through that.

[1296] Oh, wow.

[1297] It's so hard not to do it right now.

[1298] I feel like I can't breathe.

[1299] It feels torretic.

[1300] I know.

[1301] Yeah.

[1302] And I think I feel really uncomfortable.

[1303] Not safe.

[1304] Exactly.

[1305] Okay.

[1306] So Brad Edwards.

[1307] Brad was a party.

[1308] I'm going to label him a party Right?

[1309] It's not very often we get like a rocking expert on Who's kind of a rag -tag partier Not that he is a partier But I think he likes to get down What I call him a party?

[1310] I call him like a charity fundraiser So it's like it's fun But it's also very helpful Oh yeah, yeah, yeah The guy is incredible Yeah But he's also like you go Oh I'd love to go on a trip And rent jet skis with that guy Sure What a piece of ass Yeah We look like you were struggling for a word, and I thought that's what you were thinking.

[1311] No, I was just, what a life he's living.

[1312] Yeah, he's inundated in this story and helping all these women.

[1313] Yeah, he's the hub of the wheel of this crazy story.

[1314] Yeah.

[1315] Okay, so the name of the Epstein doc, which I very much encourage everyone to watch if you haven't watched it, is Jeffrey Epstein Filthy Rich.

[1316] It's on Netflix.

[1317] Good title, Filthy Rich.

[1318] Oh, I looked up the age of consent in different sense.

[1319] States.

[1320] Yeah, I did this the other day, too.

[1321] It's all like 16 and above, basically.

[1322] No one's under 16 anymore.

[1323] But just 10 years ago, there were many places that it was 15.

[1324] There were several places that were 13 in the 80s.

[1325] It just has recently changed.

[1326] Yeah, 16 is the minimal, which still, I was surprised by that.

[1327] I thought everywhere was 18.

[1328] I don't know.

[1329] I would imagine what gets tricky is that it's not abnormal for a 16 year old to date a 19 year old.

[1330] Right.

[1331] And so you're in a pickle.

[1332] Yeah.

[1333] Because if you say it's illegal to be with a 16 year old as an adult, then no one that's 18 or above can date a 16 year old, which is in high school, many 18 year olds are dating many 16 years.

[1334] That's right.

[1335] That's true.

[1336] So I think it'd probably just get cumbersome.

[1337] That's interesting.

[1338] Yeah.

[1339] But then some states have these mutual laws where, for instance, it's illegal to have sex under 16.

[1340] In some states, two 15 -year -olds would have sex.

[1341] There are states where they would try to prosecute the boy in that scenario.

[1342] Are you sure?

[1343] Yeah, and then many states have specific exclusions if both parties are minors.

[1344] Oh.

[1345] Because they can even get, like when a seventh grader sends a nude picture and then another seventh grader forwards it, they can charge that seventh grader with trafficking or underage pornography, even though they're both minors.

[1346] Wow.

[1347] Minors, but some states have an exclusion for if both people are minors and others don't.

[1348] That's interesting.

[1349] As is predicted, California is 18.

[1350] It is.

[1351] That makes sense.

[1352] And George is 16.

[1353] Yeah, that makes sense.

[1354] It all makes sense.

[1355] Michigan is also 16.

[1356] Yeah, that holds.

[1357] Yeah.

[1358] Okay.

[1359] So what's confusing about this is that he won after 10 years the, overturned like he he he finally got a court to look at the case like it got upheld yeah and then finally they're like yeah we're going to break this open which is what's currently happening right okay so that's kind of what i meant about his like fortitude in that he saw it through to that end is but he said so after 10 years we won but then they said it doesn't really matter anymore it's moot because he's dead and he's like no it still matters because of the co -conspirators uh -huh so that's confusing because now they're still working on getting that co -cons like i don't understand because they won but really they didn't win well no what what's happening i guess my understanding of it was he won a trial basically he got to make his case it didn't get upheld at some level i don't know if the supreme court or one under whatever it is he finally got to a court that was like yes we're going to look at overturning this and if they overturned it which they haven't done yet.

[1360] Okay.

[1361] Then they can go after all the co -conspirators.

[1362] But currently they're still protected by that until it is overturned.

[1363] Okay.

[1364] So it's not overturned.

[1365] Correct.

[1366] But I felt like he was saying that it's being heard and that's where it's going.

[1367] Okay.

[1368] I was a little confused on those details.

[1369] Okay.

[1370] So Prince Andrews said that picture isn't real.

[1371] Okay.

[1372] Well, it looks real to me. It looks really real.

[1373] And everyone in it says it's real.

[1374] And a professor of digital forensics and image analysis at UCLA.

[1375] Oh, well, I'm going to trust this person.

[1376] I know you are.

[1377] He said the pitcher is not manipulated.

[1378] You said he was a UCLA professor?

[1379] Yeah.

[1380] Not professor.

[1381] Oh, I did.

[1382] Yep.

[1383] He goes, what, he went there.

[1384] He hangs out there.

[1385] Okay, he likes the commissary.

[1386] Yeah.

[1387] Well, what kind of food do they have at the commissary?

[1388] Nothing outstanding, but there was a cute little, you know what, I don't know what your college experience was.

[1389] What you lived on college on campus?

[1390] So you were probably walking across the whole thing.

[1391] Anthro was all in like a very specific area of the campus.

[1392] And I just drove there every day and then I drove back.

[1393] So there's probably some options that were good that I didn't even know about.

[1394] Got it.

[1395] There was just a cute little cafe by all of our buildings that I'd go in and have a little treat.

[1396] But I was on such a budget.

[1397] I couldn't really eat at those places.

[1398] Hmm.

[1399] Guess what we had?

[1400] What?

[1401] Chick -fil -A.

[1402] Get the fuck out.

[1403] On campus.

[1404] University of Georgia.

[1405] Yeah.

[1406] What a joke.

[1407] I know.

[1408] And free tuition.

[1409] And free tuition.

[1410] What a joke.

[1411] That's right.

[1412] Oh, my God.

[1413] Well, free tuition for some.

[1414] I wonder, though, if their little taste of the chicken sales is so great that they were offsetting the tuition expenses.

[1415] They probably were.

[1416] Yeah.

[1417] There was a huge line every time.

[1418] Of course.

[1419] Yeah.

[1420] But it moves fast.

[1421] Okay.

[1422] And you were in it how many times a week?

[1423] Most days.

[1424] Most days.

[1425] This is before.

[1426] Yeah, it was revealed that they were anti -LGBQ.

[1427] God.

[1428] Okay.

[1429] So, this professor.

[1430] This professor's superfood cleanse?

[1431] This professor's first commissary diet.

[1432] Okay.

[1433] He said the lighting from the flash shows no inconsistencies with a strong cast shadow, with a strong cast shadow for the figures.

[1434] This is all talk I don't know much about.

[1435] It's very technical jargon.

[1436] Esoteric.

[1437] Yeah.

[1438] You also scratched your tongue in the middle of it.

[1439] Like, I want to know if you can walk the listeners through what happened.

[1440] You had a mouthful there.

[1441] You didn't get one of the words out.

[1442] So you appeared from my angle to scratch your tongue.

[1443] really abruptly and then you said it again and by God it worked so what happened it was to play by play do you have a cat hair on your tongue or something got gum in my mouth oh you're adjusting your gum I took my gum out very quickly oh it looked like you just scratched your tongue really quick like watch it's watch uh well you know the the the word from the movie super frailic chip super califragile Listic expialadocia.

[1444] That's what it looked like happened.

[1445] Give your tongue a quick scratch.

[1446] Oh, my God.

[1447] What if I could do that?

[1448] Well, it seemed to me, and really quickly, I was like, oh, she's experiencing some numbness of her tongue, some paralysis, and she wants to bring it back online with a little quick jab of pain, wake everything back up and get it online.

[1449] I can't believe that was you taking your gum out of your mouth.

[1450] It looks so much like you scratched your tongue.

[1451] I can't believe it wasn't clear what was happening.

[1452] Not at all.

[1453] I'm so glad you brought it up because you would have just thought I was doing something crazy.

[1454] I'm glad about that.

[1455] And then I'm also, of course, glad about your reaction.

[1456] Because I thought it was at great risk that I pointed it out because I didn't know if you were going to get embarrassed.

[1457] I think he did get embarrassed.

[1458] It's making you laugh, which is a good outcome.

[1459] Well, no, I'm not embarrassed.

[1460] Scratching my tongue would have been embarrassing.

[1461] But taking my...

[1462] Oh, my fucking tongue is so easy.

[1463] Taking my gum out is normal.

[1464] That's very normal, yeah.

[1465] Oh, man. Okay.

[1466] So he points out it's unlikely Andrew's head or body could have been spliced into the picture.

[1467] He said it can be difficult to get the body poses just right when splicing two people together.

[1468] The fact that the two figures are so seamlessly and closely placed next to each other suggests that this is unlikely to be a full body splice of Prince Andrew.

[1469] Also, duh.

[1470] First of all, what a waste of time that anyone had to analyze that.

[1471] Secondly, you know, here's what.

[1472] happens with that photo expert he looks at he's like shit looks real to me he's like but now i got to come up with some reasons why and i think he's clutching at straws no the by shadow cut pattern of a full body transfer would have the telltale signs of a digital that's not fair digital shimmer slash drop down shadow of a three percent or greater he looked at it and he's like that shit's real i know but there's also stuff we don't know about that a forensics digital expert knows And we are nearing a time where it'll be indistinguishable.

[1473] Yeah.

[1474] You know, they'll be able to do my face and my voice.

[1475] Yeah.

[1476] There's like an AI just needs this show.

[1477] There's what 300 hours of us talking.

[1478] That would be plenty enough for them to build.

[1479] Well, that's like that deep fakes and porn.

[1480] Yeah.

[1481] Uh -huh.

[1482] Where they put celebrity faces on other people's bodies.

[1483] I've never seen it, but I understand Kristen's one.

[1484] Yeah, she is a deep fan.

[1485] No. Yeah, I mean, it's a salt.

[1486] Yeah, it's a salt.

[1487] Yeah.

[1488] Yeah, yeah.

[1489] Also, I don't think anyone's put my face on anything.

[1490] I guess that's what I'm saying.

[1491] I feel left out.

[1492] Even though if I got included, I'd yell assault.

[1493] But now I'm on the outside.

[1494] I see.

[1495] You understand.

[1496] It's complicated.

[1497] I do.

[1498] I do.

[1499] I do.

[1500] Here's another like just, it is what it is difference between men and women for obvious reasons.

[1501] For very obvious reasons.

[1502] But no guy in the world, if he found out a woman had masturbate to anything of him, like him talking.

[1503] on a talk show, picture of him.

[1504] Okay.

[1505] I got to imagine in the high 99 % guys would just be flattered.

[1506] And I get it.

[1507] I know the difference.

[1508] I know that we're aggressive and predatory and all that stuff.

[1509] But with that said, it is interesting how drastic the difference is, right?

[1510] Because I'd say 98 % of women would be horrified to think of a man masturbating to an image of them that they didn't know.

[1511] Yeah.

[1512] It's just one of these really stark differences between men and women.

[1513] again with the power structure context makes sense but but it's so stark yeah that's true every guy to be like who jerked off thinking to me well listen i think many girls if they knew a guy saw them and thought like oh she's pretty or oh i like her everyone likes that but it's it's once it starts getting into this like sexual perversion secrecy no consent power or strong i am i just want be clear as day.

[1514] I am not defending it.

[1515] I know.

[1516] I'm only saying any guy I know would be like, who whacked off thinking of me?

[1517] Like you'd have their interest in a good way.

[1518] I think it's also just because sheer numbers like women, I don't think.

[1519] I mean, some people might, but I don't think women generally like see a video and then are like, I have to masturbate right the second.

[1520] Like, I have no control over my body and I have to.

[1521] Right.

[1522] Like they may make the choice to.

[1523] Look, I think both things are true.

[1524] I think a high percentage of women don't watch pornography or are visually stimulated the way guys are.

[1525] But also there's a good amount of women who watch pornography.

[1526] Oh, no, I don't even mean...

[1527] I don't mean porn.

[1528] Oh, okay.

[1529] I'm talking about, like, you're saying, like, watching someone on, like, a talk show.

[1530] Yeah.

[1531] Boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, boys.

[1532] That's all type of boys.

[1533] That's all...

[1534] That's everything.

[1535] Yeah.

[1536] Okay, so it appears that the photo is real.

[1537] Yes.

[1538] And we're unclear about this decision in the court case.

[1539] And we'll let you know about this doctor's diet, teakamarsala diet.

[1540] And I don't think people know the context for that.

[1541] Not that they would care, but there's been two this doctor's diets.

[1542] Yeah.

[1543] I don't think we've ever really gone into that.

[1544] I don't think so.

[1545] Oh.

[1546] It started a couple years ago when I did this doctor's first super food cleanse.

[1547] That's right.

[1548] And all I ate was broccoli and spinach for a week.

[1549] And by the way, this doctor is dax.

[1550] That's right.

[1551] Yeah.

[1552] There are a lot of scrutiny at the home about whether or not this doctor's superfood, first superfood cleanse was good.

[1553] That's right.

[1554] Mainly by me, skepticism by me. You were very skeptical.

[1555] Yeah.

[1556] But then this doctor came out with another diet called, what was it called?

[1557] This doctor's worst super food cleanse.

[1558] Right.

[1559] Yeah.

[1560] And it was all the junk food I made all in my 20s.

[1561] Yeah.

[1562] That was fun.

[1563] That was way more fun than the first superfoods.

[1564] And we had about six meals.

[1565] Yeah.

[1566] It was.

[1567] They're still in heavy rotation.

[1568] And now.

[1569] This doctor's Tika, Tika Marcella, superfood cleanse.

[1570] That's right.

[1571] Vietnamese and that are going to be real, they'll be my challenge.

[1572] You're overcoming them.

[1573] Yeah.

[1574] Vietnamese?

[1575] Yeah.

[1576] That sounds really wrong.

[1577] That's exactly right.

[1578] Vietnamese.

[1579] Now I'm getting in my head about it because Vietnamese.

[1580] Vietnamese.

[1581] Don't.

[1582] Okay.

[1583] Until next time.

[1584] Okay.

[1585] I love you.

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