LIVE FROM BROOKLYN: Ethan Hawke & Vincent D'Onofrio

[0] Arm jerry's in one spot.

[1] It's so warm.

[2] Someone made a sign already.

[3] He said I was hot in chips.

[4] Thank you so much.

[5] Of course, it's a man holding that, which confirms my suspicion.

[6] I really can't express to you how humbling it is for Monica and I to sit in a little stuffy attic a couple times a week and to know that this could happen.

[7] It's really mind -blowing, and I thank you so much for coming out tonight.

[8] I brought a very, very cute miniature person with me. I put her in the overhead.

[9] One of those little cute little chihuahua bags.

[10] Manika Padman is here.

[11] Okay, so I bet you guys are curious who tonight's guess is.

[12] I'm about to blow your minds because there's two guests tonight.

[13] Both of them are infamently...

[14] I sound like a president saying anonymous.

[15] Anonymous.

[16] Infinitely more famous and talented.

[17] They're a duo of sorts.

[18] Ethan Hawk and Vincent Dinoffrio.

[19] It's my show.

[20] Go ahead, Vincent.

[21] Just, can I start with something right away?

[22] A monologue?

[23] Yeah, go ahead.

[24] Yeah, yeah.

[25] This is my rifle.

[26] This is my rifle.

[27] There are many like it, but this one is mine.

[28] Without me, my rifle.

[29] is useless.

[30] Without my rifle, I am useless.

[31] Damn!

[32] Full metal jacket, baby.

[33] Full metal jacket.

[34] That felt set up, but it wasn't.

[35] So, my wife bought me this cream.

[36] This what?

[37] I don't like where this is going already.

[38] I do.

[39] Your wife Corinne, who's here, who's a beautiful, very smart, wonderful woman.

[40] Way too good for you.

[41] Continue.

[42] She got you on a moisturizer?

[43] No. No. She got me a cream for, like, muscle pain?

[44] Oh, sure.

[45] Yeah.

[46] Like an icy hot?

[47] No, no. No, okay.

[48] Like an icy hot.

[49] No, it's like a special thing.

[50] Tiger balm.

[51] It's special.

[52] Anyway, so she got it for me a couple of days, and she said that I should use it because I was complaining about my something or other.

[53] Okay, a muscle pain.

[54] Yeah.

[55] Yeah.

[56] And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[57] Of course, of course, of course, of course, right?

[58] And then I just have to get this off my chest because this was, this happened today and it's been bothering me ever since.

[59] Good, good.

[60] This is the place to do it.

[61] Yeah.

[62] So she goes, she goes to me, so did you use that cream?

[63] I'm like, yeah, she goes, you did?

[64] I'm going to, yeah.

[65] She goes, did it help?

[66] I'm like, yeah, a little bit.

[67] Not really.

[68] You know, but I'm going to use more.

[69] It's probably really good, right?

[70] Yeah.

[71] Okay.

[72] So this morning, it's, it's next to my bed and so I'm I don't know, we're talking about something I'm so nervous right now yeah, me too, yeah it's not good.

[73] Is it a personal lubricant this period?

[74] No, no, no, no, no. She picks it up and she goes, this is not open.

[75] Oh, fuck.

[76] Oh, no. Uh -oh.

[77] Uh -oh.

[78] Okay.

[79] Okay.

[80] Yeah.

[81] And I said, I, it's not, and she goes, you told me that you opened it and you used it and I said, I said that to you?

[82] Oh, boy.

[83] Oh, wow.

[84] She goes, yeah, he said that.

[85] And then she said, didn't say anything after that.

[86] So am I writing that this was like a public amends?

[87] Yeah.

[88] Or no, you're like...

[89] No, it's...

[90] I felt really bad.

[91] I feel really bad about it all day.

[92] And you're carrying it around.

[93] I'm carrying it around.

[94] You feel bad about it, because it's revealing of how easily untruths fall from your tongue.

[95] That's what I can.

[96] Yeah.

[97] Yeah.

[98] Exactly.

[99] Yeah.

[100] So the cream is representative of other things that might be hurtful is what you're talking about.

[101] Exactly.

[102] And you're trying to let your wife know that you understand you're not always your best self.

[103] Exactly.

[104] So, in a way, this is a story of healing.

[105] Thank God, Ethan's here.

[106] But not the muscle pain that it was intended to heal?

[107] No, that's still agonizing.

[108] Now, what I want to get out, the elephant in the room, I think, besides your relationship stuff, which I'm sure on the way home is going to be, it'll be all ironed out from this.

[109] you had an armchair expert interview I did right and wasn't it fantastic I've heard many people tell me your description of trying to find the little thread of positiveness in somebody and just try to tug it and let it build into something was a lot of people got a lot out of that myself included that's what I'm trying to do right now Karen I'm just trying to find that little bit of goodness In you, though.

[110] Well, and it's weird.

[111] So you already had a nice fat armchair interview, and we learned a lot about you.

[112] And really tonight we're going to learn a lot about Ethan.

[113] Yes.

[114] Yeah.

[115] And then you guys will get reminiscing and take over, and then I'll leave for about 15 minutes, start smoking again, come back, and then...

[116] That would be ideal.

[117] Yeah, do the bowels and whatnot.

[118] But you guys are really, really good friends.

[119] In fact, you're friends to a degree that I've often been jealous of your friendship.

[120] As I fell quickly in love with Vincent some five years ago now, I notice you guys text a lot.

[121] I think more than you and I do.

[122] He seems that I'd even say he reveres your skill set.

[123] He thinks you're incredible as an actor.

[124] Like texting or, oh, as an actor, yeah, yeah.

[125] And in fact, the reason we were blessed with your presence is really Vincent wrangled you into this.

[126] And so my assumption is you probably are just learning who I am for the first time.

[127] And I guess...

[128] How am I doing?

[129] Yeah, you're great.

[130] But did you like Scrubs?

[131] Did you think that was a good show?

[132] Do you remember ever, like, seeing it and thinking I was good?

[133] Or do you like the movie I made?

[134] Garden State.

[135] Garden State?

[136] My directorial debut, Garden State.

[137] Did you like that?

[138] my gut is telling me I'm being set up I bear an uncanny resemblance to Zach Brath so that's when I'm...

[139] Well, to make you feel better, I have no idea who the fuck you're talking about.

[140] Oh, okay.

[141] Yeah, if it makes you feel better, I'm right with Vince.

[142] I don't know who you are or Zach.

[143] That's right where I want you.

[144] So I'm a three -time taekwondo world champion.

[145] That's why I have a show.

[146] then let me say I respect you very much but the people who listen to the show know that I talk about boyhood I don't think I ever go more than 20 minutes without talking about boyhood it's just the best movie it's so real and I had a chance to interview my mother on this show as well and that was my favorite episode because she was unbelievably honest about our pretty wild rollercoaster ride of my childhood in her early 20s And both of us, when we saw that movie, particularly scenes at the dinner table, where everyone's waiting to see what drunk stepdad's going to do, I'm getting chills just thinking about it.

[147] It was so accurate.

[148] And it was my childhood.

[149] And then as I was reading about you a little bit in preparation for this, I saw some parallels in that.

[150] Your parents got divorced when you were three or something.

[151] my mom was 17 when she had my brother and your mom was 17 and then I have to say my mom gets it's so strange I often say she was 17 and she gets apoplectic she's like I was 18 I was 17 when I got pregnant but 18 when you were born and I'm like mom you still sound like white trash the 1817 thing is not like but to her it's a big deal yeah sure yeah Yeah, she could have bought a lottery ticket when she had you in her arms.

[152] I understand.

[153] I'm there for you, mom.

[154] But so you, they got divorced when you were three, and you then had a stepdad.

[155] Did you have one or more?

[156] I had a couple, yeah.

[157] A couple, yeah, I had several as well.

[158] Congratulations.

[159] It's great, isn't it?

[160] What my favorite part of it is is you have a whole way everyone's doing everything in the family and then a new buck shows up and goes no we live in new jersey now you're like wait okay i remember for me it was really strange it's it's kind of nice my stepfather and vincent knows me well enough to know that this is he was the first one to notice that i my mother had forgotten to teach me to brush my teeth you know and like So that, but I mean, it sounds kind of weird and everything, but all of a sudden you're 10 years old and all of a sudden you have to brush your teeth every morning?

[161] Are you nuts?

[162] You know, I thought this guy was so cruel and weird.

[163] Drill sergeant.

[164] Other people don't do this, you know?

[165] But you only know your own reality as a kid.

[166] And when your mother falls in love, you know, and we all know this when a person falls in love, their point of view shifts.

[167] You know, I mean, I think one of the things that I love about boyhood is you get that ride of, And you see it from multiple points of view where for her, she wants to be in love.

[168] For the kids, they want attention.

[169] They miss their own father.

[170] They don't want to get to know.

[171] And then no sooner do they fall.

[172] Sometimes for me, losing my stepfather was harder than my parents' divorce.

[173] Because my own father, you only get one father.

[174] You only get one mother, right?

[175] But these mentors and these other figures come into your life.

[176] and when they leave, you might not find them again.

[177] And that had a, for me as a kid, that was more terrifying.

[178] I always knew my father was there, you know, whether I was seeing him every day or not, he was there.

[179] And what's going to happen when my mom splits up with this, is he going to disappear?

[180] And often they do.

[181] Yeah.

[182] You know?

[183] So it sounds like you had a very favorable opinion of at least stepdad number one.

[184] I don't know.

[185] Are we really going to do this?

[186] We don't have to.

[187] I have my stepfather is named, he's not married to my mother anymore, but he is named Patrick.

[188] He is named Patrick Powers, and he's an amazing figure in my life.

[189] But that was stepdad number two.

[190] Okay.

[191] Fair enough.

[192] We'll leave stepdad number one out of this.

[193] I have a stepdad that I don't say his name because I'm afraid people might egg his house or something.

[194] Yeah, right, right, right.

[195] Um, but the thing that, um, for me as a kid was, uh, you, when your mom's single, you can often end up being her partner.

[196] Not in a sick way, but you become her partner physically, no, uh, uh, not in the sick way, I mean, sexually.

[197] Yeah, just, you know, in a very natural sex way.

[198] You never, you never, you never told me about, you never, you never, I'd like to Really?

[199] But And then a guy will show up And then all of a sudden it's like Oh, then they occupy that role And then you kind of get relegated And then there's a divorce And then you're kind of You're back up to play Yeah, yeah It's a starting lineup again Yeah, exactly They trade the good quarterback It's not really where you want to be Right You know, I mean it's And you don't know it There's a feeling of loss When your parent falls in love but then when that relationship dissolves, there's this weight that falls back on you of responsibility for their emotional life.

[200] Yeah, emotional responsibility.

[201] And if you're a young man and you really love your mom, you know, that's something you take really seriously.

[202] Yeah.

[203] And it's more of a burden than probably 15, 16, 17 -year -old boys really even ready for.

[204] Yeah.

[205] And I found that very hard.

[206] So I'm with you 100%.

[207] And I'm curious, I don't really have an explanation why early on I had a very huge fear of commitment, but I guess I think because I was in such a serious relationship as a child with my mother sexually.

[208] I would love to see her face right now.

[209] She's the coolest.

[210] She's the coolest.

[211] She'd be probably making a worst joke.

[212] But I think I had a little bit of hesitation about getting ensnared.

[213] in anything for a while.

[214] Once I left the house and I was like, oh, good, no one else's game plan.

[215] I don't have to go along for anyone's ride.

[216] I don't want to be a part of a bad plan.

[217] I have all these rules and no one can find.

[218] Now I'm in control.

[219] And I think of a little bit the women, unfortunately, in my life early on were maybe a little bit, you know, I just didn't want, I wanted some freedom from maybe, that responsibility until I got older.

[220] That's just a story about me. Thanks for coming down to hear it.

[221] It's been great being here, dude.

[222] All right.

[223] So, you, you, you're born in Austin.

[224] You come to Brooklyn, right?

[225] You come to Brooklyn at three, four years old.

[226] Oh, it was never that simple, man. Never that simple.

[227] I was born in Austin.

[228] My parents were at UT.

[229] You're bringing up a very weird conversation in my psyche.

[230] Uh -huh.

[231] Just because I have so many.

[232] I'll tell you, you might like this.

[233] We did it.

[234] My story was weird.

[235] My parents ended up moving to Connecticut, and then they broke up.

[236] My father moved back to Texas, and my mother stayed, and she ended up falling in love with another.

[237] We moved to Vermont, and for a while, yeah, yeah.

[238] My mom was a, my mom was a waitress at Stratton Mountain Valley Lodge, you know, and she had this boyfriend that I loved.

[239] He's incredibly, uh...

[240] Not in the same way, you know.

[241] Not in the same way that Dax was talking about.

[242] No, no, no, very different.

[243] But I remember, this is, my skin is vibrating a weird way because I know what I'm about to say, and I know how much my mother's going to hate me for saying it.

[244] I decided I'm going to say it anyway.

[245] Okay, good.

[246] Yeah, and I was thinking about it the whole last, like, five minutes.

[247] But I remember we were, like, at a movie or something, my mom and I, and I'm in the fourth grade, third grade, and we pull into the house in Vermont, and there we had this little cabin of a house, and all my mother's lingerie was nailed to the front door, you know?

[248] And I was like, huh, what is that?

[249] And she's like, I think we're moving to Atlanta.

[250] Oh, wow.

[251] And basically, you know, she went in and I stayed in the car, she got some stuff, and we drove to Atlanta.

[252] Now, that's the kind of story that only happens to a woman who has a kid at 18.

[253] Yeah, 17.

[254] Now, if she was 17, God knows what would have been stapled to the door.

[255] So, of course, it's not that easy of a story, but you end up in...

[256] Please do.

[257] Just to help his mom out.

[258] First of all, she's absolutely lovely.

[259] Smoking hot.

[260] Oh, no. Well.

[261] That too.

[262] And she's, obviously, more than that, she's this, has this amazing life.

[263] And she moved to Romania and has done so much there.

[264] She's works with gypsy kids trying to stop child begging, trying to stop racism against gypsies.

[265] She grew up in near Abilene, Texas, where racism was really bad when she was a kid.

[266] and she was traveling in Europe and recognized the same kind of racism happened there.

[267] And she dedicated basically almost less 20 years of her life to trying to work towards stopping racism in Eastern Europe, in Romania specifically, and working on getting, you know, there's a big problem with child begging there and getting those kids in school.

[268] She's gotten thousands of kids in school.

[269] So as we joke and everything, I would...

[270] Pretty fabulous.

[271] It's real easy to...

[272] One of the things that I really like about what Linkletter achieved with boyhood is that you kind of don't ever really know what the parents kids see their parents through a particular lens and you don't really think about them as whole people you think about what their relationship to you is 100 % and you know I remember all the time people say well what does your mom do for a living or something I'd be like I don't know I mean who cares I mean but now that I have kids that's what they're like they don't they don't care what movie you're in or everything They just want you to take care of their stuff.

[273] Yeah, get them to where they need to be.

[274] Not getting the way.

[275] Throw them at 20 when you get out of the car.

[276] But you do end up in Brooklyn eventually.

[277] I do end up in Brooklyn eventually, yes.

[278] And then you end up in New Jersey.

[279] Yep.

[280] Garden State, first movie.

[281] You...

[282] Are you bummed to leave Brooklyn?

[283] I have no idea.

[284] Yeah, I have no idea.

[285] Was that bummed to leave Brooklyn?

[286] Well, first of all, I'm so sorry.

[287] said you left Austin.

[288] That's my favorite place in the world.

[289] I always went back to Austin.

[290] Austin.

[291] So great.

[292] And then you come to Brooklyn, but then you're going to leave there, too.

[293] And then you go to New Jersey.

[294] And so is your, the main chunk of your childhood, is it New Jersey?

[295] 7th grade through 12th grade, yeah.

[296] That's pretty substantial.

[297] Yeah.

[298] And all this moving, how did you do when you would land in these places?

[299] Well, here's the thing is...

[300] We already know from Vincent's story.

[301] He didn't do so hot when he moved around.

[302] So, we covered that.

[303] I don't know what...

[304] I remember...

[305] I was in a playground here in Brooklyn and I had a really, we lived in Atlanta for a while and had a nice prideful southern accent.

[306] And I lost it really fast.

[307] I got my ass handed to me several times.

[308] And I was miserable.

[309] I used to lay in my mom.

[310] We had this really nice apartment in Atlanta and then when we moved to Brooklyn, we had one room living with my mom.

[311] And so I had the little loft bed above.

[312] you know, where she would sleep.

[313] And I remember I would just sit there.

[314] This is going to sound so pathetic.

[315] I would just sit there and like, click my heels.

[316] Like, there's no place I comb.

[317] There's no place I. I just wanted to go back south so bad, you know?

[318] And I just kept thinking, could this be a dream?

[319] Please let this be a dream.

[320] And it wasn't a dream.

[321] It was my life, and it's been misery ever since.

[322] No, that was a hard transition.

[323] Going from the south to Brooklyn was super.

[324] hard as a kid.

[325] Jersey was better.

[326] It was, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[327] I don't know, I remember, like, my first day coming from Brooklyn to, there was this girl, I hope, maybe she's here tonight, Sherry Cabala.

[328] Sherry, are you out there?

[329] Cher?

[330] Come on out.

[331] Cher?

[332] Share, bear?

[333] Sherry was amazing, and Sherry, like, to my 12 -year -old self, she was smoking hot, and I loved her.

[334] And I loved her.

[335] And, um, I remember none of the boys liked me. You know, and I was the last one picked for the kick.

[336] I was the last one picked for the kickball team, you know.

[337] So I'm just, you're talking about moving.

[338] I'll just tell you, and I was kind of bummed, and they put me way out in the outfield.

[339] And I never, and somebody kicked this thing, and I caught the ball, right?

[340] I caught the ball.

[341] Yeah, thanks.

[342] And Sherry ran over to all the cool kids going, see, he's not a dork, he's cool.

[343] He can catch the ball.

[344] And it was kind of cool, and I knew I was lost.

[345] I was like, there's no...

[346] Well, nothing makes guys like another guy more than the hot girl saying I like that guy.

[347] Yeah, I'm sure that went to.

[348] It didn't help.

[349] It didn't help at all.

[350] Oh, shit, well, we like them now, too.

[351] Yeah, no, it doesn't work like that.

[352] I guess what the reason I'm curious about how you did in all these new environments is you early on were...

[353] Before even acting, maybe, yeah.

[354] You had a desire to be a writer.

[355] No, a little bit Or are they happening at the same time?

[356] You know, Vincent and I were joking earlier about crazy Dennis Hopper You know, and Dennis Hopper has an amazing quote That I love, which is that he always saw himself As basically a farm kid And he never knew that there was a difference Between writing and acting and directing And photography and music That all happened in that building called The Arts, and he wanted to get, like, away from his family into that building, you know, and that's really how I felt.

[357] So if that was going to be acting in a play, that'd be cool.

[358] If it was playing music, that'd be cool.

[359] If it was acting, that'd be cool.

[360] I wanted to contribute and be part of whatever that mysterious thing called the Arts was.

[361] Yeah.

[362] So I don't think my kid, mine, was like, oh, I want to be an actor, oh, I want to be a writer.

[363] That's a look in my eyes.

[364] since I didn't have an agenda like that.

[365] I would read But did you have a romantic notion of what a writer was?

[366] Yes.

[367] Okay.

[368] I want to, Jack London.

[369] I want to be, you know, travel.

[370] I was traveling.

[371] Yeah, Jack London, for sure.

[372] Right.

[373] Mine was Bukowski.

[374] Thanks for asking.

[375] Not at 12 or 13.

[376] 14.

[377] I mean, right when I decided and I'll tell you why, because I thought oh, this guy is a he shits his pants once a week.

[378] You related?

[379] He sleeps with his mom.

[380] Yeah.

[381] Yeah, yeah.

[382] No, but I just thought this guy is a failure on all accounts.

[383] He's drunk all day long.

[384] Every woman he's with hates his guts.

[385] But he fucking, he writes it down, and it's beautiful.

[386] And then the whole thing seems justified.

[387] And as a young guy, I just, I found that very romantic, that if you could contribute this, if you could tell it truthfully, somehow it would excuse what a shit bag you were or something.

[388] I think maybe that was secretly what, was going on in my mind.

[389] Since you're a boyhood fan, I'll tell you that, I often like to say this, that I think Richard Linkletter, Charles Bukowski, Jack Kerouac, and it's got to be somebody, there's another person in there, are responsible for more bad art, inspiring, more bad art. Because you read Bukowski and you think, oh, I fart, I could write a great poem.

[390] Do you know what I mean?

[391] You read Carowack, you're like, oh, I'll write a novel about my friends.

[392] It'll be awesome.

[393] I can live in a car.

[394] Yeah.

[395] You know, Link Letter makes a movie about growing up.

[396] You're like, yeah, I could grow up.

[397] Sure.

[398] And they make the simple things.

[399] Also, the timeline, you're like, I can get one done in 12 years.

[400] Sure.

[401] That's a manageable time table.

[402] Hell yeah.

[403] I don't think I get one done.

[404] It should be a lot better if it took that long.

[405] Yeah.

[406] But anyway, I do think those guys do put that in your brain.

[407] Yeah.

[408] So you start working very young.

[409] I mean, by my account, very young.

[410] Vincent, you were pretty young, too.

[411] No, not like him.

[412] God damn it.

[413] Can you just not?

[414] Talk to me, please.

[415] I'm done talking.

[416] But I just imagine that at some point we're going to hear mumbling and we're going to just go quiet, we're going to hear, I did put on the cream.

[417] I didn't open the thing, but I put on the cream.

[418] You don't have to open the thing to put on the cream.

[419] Yeah, I'm not sure.

[420] speaking to you anymore.

[421] I'm so sorry.

[422] Can we continue?

[423] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[424] Oh, well, you were asking me something.

[425] But when Vincent interrupted.

[426] But you started working really young.

[427] Well, did you, how do I say this delicately?

[428] Were you cool in high school, or did you feel like an outcast?

[429] I definitely felt like an outcast.

[430] I remember when I got cast in exploring.

[431] I had done this little I had done a play at the community theater MacArthur Theater I got cast in this I played Dunois Page in St. Joan Look, a kingfisher That was my line That's really good I still remember Yeah I actually thought a kingfish Thank you very believable I got scared there was a kingfish I actually saw a kingfisher walking in the world It was like scared I don't even know what a kingfish is and I saw it It was like huge and black Yeah I had like a nice Net.

[432] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[433] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[434] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[435] So anyway, I did this play.

[436] Thank you.

[437] Yeah, yeah.

[438] And I started, I went on a few big casting calls in New York with some people that I met from that play.

[439] And one of them was for this movie called The Explorers.

[440] which I ended up getting the main part in.

[441] And River Phoenix was in that with you, yeah?

[442] River Phoenix was my co -star, my first -scene partner.

[443] And it was an interesting thing at high school because for a second, I seemed incredibly cool.

[444] Actually, I mean, I had to leave the football team to go do a movie, right?

[445] Well, you're on the football team, that's pretty good.

[446] Well, I didn't start.

[447] Just to digress for a minute.

[448] On the eighth grade team, you know, we did a little, you know, at the end of the season, the scrimmage.

[449] No, no, no, at the end of season, it was a banquet.

[450] A banquet.

[451] Thank you.

[452] A banquet.

[453] We're doing a banquet.

[454] And, you know, I got up and gave a whole speech about the team, what a successful season had been, how we're feeling good about next year, blah, blah, blah.

[455] And I come and sit back down.

[456] And my mother's like, why did they pick you to talk you?

[457] You don't even start.

[458] And I was like, I was the only one who wanted to.

[459] If you get a sense of who I was.

[460] You were a team orator.

[461] Yeah, I remember in, you know when everybody's getting a bar and bot mitzvah, you know, there's all those things?

[462] Well, I got invited to a couple, and apparently I danced like a lunatic and really like, and I was, no, no, no, no. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

[463] No, no, no, no, and the point why I will not dance is because I dance at these things, and, and, and, and the point why I will, will not dance is because I dance at these things.

[464] And then I got excommunicated from my whole group of friends.

[465] It was really, this is vintage eighth grade stuff, where you're sitting around the table, right?

[466] And you eat lunch every day at the same table.

[467] And Paul's sitting there, and Brandon's sitting there, and David's sitting there, and Sean's sitting there, right?

[468] And you get your fries, and you come over.

[469] And one day after this bat mitzvah that I apparently behaved like an idiot, I just was dancing, you know.

[470] And Paul Hurst, his name, I launch into the stratosphere.

[471] So, um, says, uh, hey man, only ate to a table.

[472] Ooh.

[473] And I was like, but we eat here every day.

[474] Yeah, but it's, it's eight to a table.

[475] I know.

[476] And everybody, they're all sitting there.

[477] Fuck you, Paul.

[478] I look to all their eyes, you know, and they're all like, eight to a table, dude.

[479] And I was like, so they clearly had all talked about it, you know?

[480] You know what I mean?

[481] So I had to walk over to the one table by myself to give you an idea whether I was cool.

[482] And, and I sat by myself and I'll tell you this, ready for this?

[483] One guy, Brandon Boyce.

[484] There we go.

[485] He's dead.

[486] Yeah.

[487] Let's hear it for Brandon.

[488] He stood up.

[489] He stood up.

[490] He gave them a scowl and he went and sat next to me. Man among men.

[491] And he was my best friend.

[492] Yeah, there we go.

[493] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[494] So it was like, I can't buy me love the African An Eater Dance, but you didn't pull it off.

[495] Did you see that movie?

[496] I can feel the music.

[497] You fucking asshole.

[498] I was the lead.

[499] No, no, no. Stop tricking him.

[500] Well, to be honest with you, well, Amanda Peterson was in that movie, and Amanda Peterson was in The Explorers with me, right?

[501] And it was a very, to get us back on topic...

[502] Thank you.

[503] Somebody's got to.

[504] The Explorers, I was kind of a loser.

[505] I did this movie, and all of a sudden, I was very interesting.

[506] People were interested in me. Sure.

[507] Then the movie was a giant bomb.

[508] You took that really hard, yeah?

[509] I took it really hard.

[510] I took it really hard.

[511] I took it really hard.

[512] So I read a quote where you said that's just that's a lot of pressure for a 17 -year -old kid.

[513] Well, to be honest, it was the punch, hindsight 2020 is the punch in the face that anybody who's going into the arts needs to get.

[514] Yeah.

[515] That if you're looking for the world to love you back, it feels really good when you guys laugh.

[516] It feels really good when you make people happy.

[517] But if you're really going to be out here doing something and trying to do something interesting, you've got to fall on your ass.

[518] You're going to shit the bad.

[519] You're going to, or you're not doing anything interesting.

[520] Right.

[521] And so if that's going to crush you, then you really shouldn't walk out, you know.

[522] And so I survived it.

[523] It took me several years to put myself back together after that, to be totally honest with you.

[524] You know, I mean, that's when I started really thinking about writing and thinking, all right, my room at the table is going to be writing because I actually, this is no joke.

[525] I was at the movie premiered at the Ziegfield, right?

[526] This is the movie, the director done Gremlins.

[527] It was, it was 1985.

[528] It's coming out.

[529] It's supposed to $30 million.

[530] movie in 1985.

[531] Okay, it was a big deal.

[532] That's a billion dollars today, just so you guys know.

[533] The head of the studio was here.

[534] River and I walked down the escalator after the premiere.

[535] We went to go to the bathroom, and, you know, we overheard the executives from Paramount talking.

[536] I'm like, well, that's a loser.

[537] Yeah, it's a loser.

[538] Now, the public's rejected those kids.

[539] I mean, that's no Henry Thomas.

[540] He was smart.

[541] He was smart guy.

[542] And River and I were just, it, it felt like a horse, like, you know.

[543] And then you walk out of the John, your mom goes, you were great.

[544] You're like, no, the public has rejected me. And a 13 -year -old psyche like that, and especially when you've been, you know, your egos, the flames have been fanned, right?

[545] Yes, that's really where I'm heading.

[546] Okay, head there, baby.

[547] Before you get into the team, you know that group of guys that was standing there talking like that?

[548] It's happened again and again and again.

[549] But can you imagine being the guy saying, you know, River Phoenix and Ethan Hawke, you know, like...

[550] I know.

[551] Not kidding me?

[552] I just saw the picture.

[553] Yeah, come on.

[554] Nobody will know who those people are in 10 years.

[555] Well, let me ask you, though.

[556] Had River done stand by me yet?

[557] No. Oh, he hadn't.

[558] So he was just as vulnerable as you were.

[559] So he couldn't even go, hey, dude, sometimes it changed.

[560] And I'll tell you, the funny thing is that one of the most brutal moments of our friendship is, so a year or so, maybe 18 months, you know, and when you're 14, 18 months feels like eons have gone by, right?

[561] And I got a call about another audition for this movie called Stand By Me, right?

[562] And I went in and I did the precursor audition and that was my first audition after Explorers.

[563] Because my mother was like, all right, all right, you know.

[564] And so I went in again and I did a good job and I did a good job.

[565] job and I finally got to audition for the director.

[566] You know, Rob Reiner's directing the movie and I go in there and he goes, man, you're really good.

[567] I just gave the part to another kid with a funny name and I knew instantly who it was.

[568] Oh, no. You know what I mean?

[569] I was like, another kid, what's that kid?

[570] He's a weirder name than you.

[571] Two birds.

[572] Another bird name.

[573] What was it?

[574] Was it corky pigeon?

[575] No, wasn't him.

[576] Who we gave the part to?

[577] River Phoenix.

[578] Lake Eagle.

[579] No. They say, he says River's name, and, you know, that weird thing about friendships and young, it's like, one party who's, like, a little bit happy and another huge party who just died.

[580] Oh, yeah.

[581] Like, anybody but my friend, you know, like, and then he calls me up.

[582] He's like, hey, I'm so sorry.

[583] Oh, that's a rough call.

[584] You're not sorry.

[585] Yeah.

[586] You know, don't give me that, right?

[587] You know.

[588] That's okay, though, because you get a little laugh of your own a couple years later with Dead Poets Society.

[589] this is when I become aware of you.

[590] You're 19?

[591] You're 7, right?

[592] No, he's only 5 years old.

[593] 4 years older than me. Yeah, I was 18 when Dead Poets Society came out, so you would have been 11.

[594] No, 14.

[595] Jesus Christ, okay.

[596] I'm 14.

[597] That's a prime time to see that movie.

[598] You're 14, you're sleeping with your mom.

[599] Yeah.

[600] My mom and I. My mom and I Netflixed and chilled it No, that movie You know That movie means a lot to me And when I saw that movie I just It was such an emotional experience For someone who's 14 And you're so largely responsible For that experience And I remember going like Oh my God, that guy is so special And just really became a huge fan of you With that movie sincerely now what happens to your ego at 19 when that happens you you stopped you guys stopped going to bar mitzvahs didn't you during this period it's i have to imagine it is we're not going to start talking about his ego are we well that's that's our main focus that's uh that's what we talk about sorry what i would like to say One truth.

[601] Vincent might say otherwise.

[602] But one truth is I had actually been so scarred from the experience as a kid that it took me a long time to register that people like Dead Poets Society.

[603] Because the whole experience on the Explorers, everybody told me the movie was brilliant, right?

[604] Everybody close to me kept saying, oh, it's brilliant, you're brilliant, you're brilliant, you're brilliant.

[605] And I knew the world hated it.

[606] So Dead Poet Society was coming out and everybody was like, oh, you're brilliant, you're brilliant.

[607] And I just didn't believe them.

[608] I just wanted not to be a casualty.

[609] You know, not to be one of those teen actors that turns their life into a disaster.

[610] I was, I had dropped out of college, and my parents were really worried about me, and I really wanted to work and put one foot in the front of the other and prove that I was right to drop out of college.

[611] And so in a way, my ego might have clearly been affected in some way, But I was so sure that whatever success I was having was going to be so short -lived that I just wanted to use it to get through doors, you know, so that that was really how I felt.

[612] So, yeah, it didn't cure the fear that we all kind of carry, particularly in your case, having had that experience.

[613] And I can see that keeping you humble.

[614] But just the being 19 and going places and people saying hi to you and girls all of a sudden wanting to talk to you.

[615] Yeah, that was good.

[616] That's a lot to juggle at 19.

[617] Like, I wrote a wheelie on a dirt bike, and I thought I was fucking Elvis Presley.

[618] I mean, you know, it's kind of hard to keep that thing, you know, in the saddle.

[619] Did you have someone in your life that was checking in with you?

[620] Were you staying connected?

[621] Did you have a mentor?

[622] Like, how did you navigate that?

[623] Because you didn't implode as many people did.

[624] I didn't implode.

[625] I...

[626] Stop it, stop it, stop it, stop.

[627] Vincent knows some shit.

[628] Yeah, you really...

[629] I can tell you, Vincent knows he wore, like, a leather jacket for a month that was way out of his league or something.

[630] Yeah, no, it's way worse than that.

[631] Way worse than that.

[632] I guess you could say that what I...

[633] I don't know how I survived.

[634] I look back, frankly, I just don't know.

[635] You know, there but for the grace of God go I. what I want to answer.

[636] I don't know why I didn't get run over.

[637] I don't know.

[638] You know, Amanda Peterson, you know, passed away a couple of years ago, you know.

[639] Rivers passed away a long time ago now.

[640] This is, these are, we make jokes about how your ego can sustain, but, you know, egos are ferocious creatures, and they can destroy our lives if we don't keep them in check.

[641] And I don't know part of it is a biochemistry, you know, something that you're just born with.

[642] I have, you know, we talked about stepfathers.

[643] I remember.

[644] I remember I made my Broadway debut in this, in a Chekhov play, right?

[645] I'm 21.

[646] It's a couple of years after what you're talking about.

[647] And this is life for you.

[648] Actually, I remember this feeling because stage looked a lot like this right now.

[649] I remember walking out onto stage thinking, isn't this weird?

[650] I'm making my Broadway debut.

[651] I'm playing Constantine in the seat.

[652] It's just one of the greatest parts ever written.

[653] And I'm not nervous at all.

[654] I'm going to slay this part.

[655] You know what I mean?

[656] I remember that's like a...

[657] You were back on the dance floor at the Balmitsfa.

[658] Yeah.

[659] And guess what?

[660] The reviews showed that I wasn't taking it seriously enough.

[661] Do you know?

[662] My point being is that...

[663] Well, I wasn't going to go with that.

[664] But I had confidence, and I loved what I was doing.

[665] But I did have great people in my life.

[666] And I remember the opening night, like, I went to light a cigarette, and literally four lighters came out from agents.

[667] And manages them people like that.

[668] Because, you know, when you're 21, your future income is, you know, they're willing to take a bet.

[669] And my stepfather saw this moment.

[670] And he took me aside.

[671] And he said, you know, something along the lines of you're acting like an entitled little shit.

[672] Ah.

[673] You know?

[674] And that these guys are kissing your ass and you think it's so great.

[675] But, you know, you should be home because you weren't that good.

[676] you weren't as good as you can be and you know that you know and he was always challenging me to not remember he used to say he would say really wise things to me like it's always hard to tell when people are full of shit when they're complimenting you not because you're a bad person but because you want to believe them oh it's delicious so when the guy goes you're the next marlin brando you think really you know like you don't you don't think I mean it's so hard when in that seat to see clearly.

[677] And so that's the long answer.

[678] The short answer is I got spared somehow.

[679] I made it through a gauntlet that I didn't deserve to make it through.

[680] I don't know how I ended up getting to be 47 sitting here talking with you and getting to have this kind of...

[681] I also think knowing him, and it's why one of the reasons why we bonded, is that neither of...

[682] we've always had a, we've always been able to, especially when we were younger, no matter how crazy things were getting and how many the opportunities we had put in front of us, that we were always able to step out of ourselves a bit and see ourselves a little bit, you know, and I think that's because of people like your stepdad and stuff like that.

[683] And people like my stepdad.

[684] I mean, we could do that for each other.

[685] I mean, Vincent came to one of the first book readings I ever did, you know, and I never forget, we had this very funny.

[686] experience we're walking out of the bookstore and there were all these lovely people there and one of the sons and this one guy really wanted to give me a manuscript and we were being rushed somewhere else you remember this and we got rushed in the back of a town car and we got sat back in there and this guy said please will you read this thing and the door shut and we both looked at each other and and you said Samuel Beckett we just slammed the door and Samuel Beckett you know and this I mentioned only because that's the value of our French We were always reminding each other, well, lucky it was to be in the seat we're in and how we don't deserve to be here.

[687] Right.

[688] And then the tail end of what I was going to say goes a little darker, which is...

[689] Should I take my pants up?

[690] Please don't.

[691] I was going to say yes.

[692] But later in life, both of us had similar things, too, that we...

[693] you could say barely survived times, yeah, yeah.

[694] What he's trying to say is that we're not like choir boys over here saying that we're like such good people.

[695] I think that goes without saying.

[696] I don't think anyone here thinks that you're Kirk Cameron.

[697] Yeah, I have fallen...

[698] Thank you.

[699] Thank you.

[700] You know who he is?

[701] Yes, I do know who you.

[702] I have fallen on my ass many times and I don't know.

[703] Sometimes I really...

[704] I'll tell you a story.

[705] I'm scared to say this because it's really sad and really strange, but I hope this is okay.

[706] I mean, you're laughing, but I'm not, I'm not, actually.

[707] But I was 14, and River Phoenix and I stole a pack of cigarettes together, right?

[708] We'd both, we watched, you know, some weird thing on James Dean or something.

[709] We wanted to smoke Camel on filters, right?

[710] And so we went, and back in those days, you could put them in a box.

[711] bar.

[712] Yeah, yeah.

[713] You know, so we got some quarters and we hid from the guy, we put them in and we went out to this old, it was a, we weren't in high, we were making a movie, but other people were in high school and we went out to this back of this high school field next to this you know, the goalposts and we smoked three cigarettes in a row, right?

[714] And I remember, River puked.

[715] He turned green and he puked, and I didn't.

[716] And I thought of that the night.

[717] died.

[718] Yeah.

[719] It's not up to us.

[720] We don't know how strong our bodies are.

[721] We don't know.

[722] And some people can do asinine things.

[723] And they drive home drunk, and they park the car, and they wake up in the morning, and they go to an alcoholic's anonymous, and they save their life and they tell the story.

[724] Some people crash and burn and die.

[725] Yeah.

[726] And it's not, there's no, like, pithy statement where, well, because I had friends, I made it.

[727] You know what?

[728] You know what?

[729] You don't know about me is I'm 14 years sober and I've had probably eight thank you I've had eight good buddies die in the fucking cocktail every time it comes out with the cocktail is I'm like I've been on that exact same combination 25 times and they had two and you just don't know why that night so that's why I'm saying like the universe the truth is the universe is moving in these ways that we don't really know but one things we know is we know when we're hurting ourselves ourselves.

[730] We know it.

[731] We know when we're out of alignment with some...

[732] The symmetry of it all.

[733] You feel it in your heart.

[734] And you feel it when something is fun and when something is malevolent.

[735] And when you get attached to malevolent forces inside yourself, bad shit goes down.

[736] And good friends say, remember, we talked about this.

[737] Remember, and you go, no, we didn't.

[738] That's not what I mean.

[739] And then you hang up the phone.

[740] and you're like, that is what I meant, you know.

[741] And it haunts you, but and hopefully you can pull yourself out of those negative tailspins, you know, and...

[742] Well, one theory I have on you is what's kept you right -sized is you have an incredible work ethic for whatever reason, again, maybe biochemically, maybe your stepdad.

[743] No, he does.

[744] But you're an industrious motherfucker.

[745] He is.

[746] Suspiciously, you've written three books, directed three movies.

[747] You mean somebody else?

[748] And directed three plays.

[749] Why is it suspicious?

[750] Because three, three, three.

[751] Three movies, three plays, three books.

[752] Well, that means when he does another one, your whole theory goes out the fucking window.

[753] I'll never talk to him again.

[754] What kind of theory is that?

[755] No, no. He does a fourth of anything.

[756] I'm out.

[757] I've actually directed four movies, and I've written four novels.

[758] Oh, come on.

[759] So you're off track, too.

[760] I'm going to sue Wikipedia.

[761] But you can go with the three thing.

[762] By the way, my Wikipedia page I just discovered last week says my name is Dack.

[763] That's true.

[764] It's not dachymus.

[765] Hey, you know, since you're talking about mom's, I don't even think I told you this.

[766] This is what's funny about the time period we live in.

[767] My mom goes on my Wikipedia page and tries to correct it.

[768] And they won't let her.

[769] You know, like, they'll have my son's name wrong, right?

[770] And she'll be like, no, I'm his grandmother.

[771] He's, son's name is this.

[772] And they go, no, it's not.

[773] We know.

[774] In Vogue magazine, 1997, it says this.

[775] She's like, yeah, but that was wrong.

[776] And I'm his grandmother.

[777] I swear to God, I only learned to this because someone tweeted me, I named my son after you, Daxomis.

[778] And I was like, oh, no. That's terrible.

[779] Hold on, no, no, no. It's the ink dry on the birth certificate because I'm not Daxomis.

[780] And so where'd you get Daxomis?

[781] And then it was a screen grab of Wikipedia.

[782] So then I went there and I tried to correct it.

[783] And then I learned I've been banned.

[784] This is true.

[785] You're not allowed to do that.

[786] Because you're biased.

[787] Because I wrote something to pervert it or something.

[788] I've never written anything to Wikipedia and I'm fucking banned.

[789] That's not true.

[790] Daxymus is behind all this.

[791] Is Daxymus an actual name?

[792] Maybe in third century Rome.

[793] Certainly not in Detroit in the 80s.

[794] Maximus Daxemus.

[795] Or like one of those guys in a strong man contest?

[796] Magnus for Magnus.

[797] So you're an industrious dude and you've...

[798] He's non -stop.

[799] He's just non -stop.

[800] It's really impressive but what's impressive about it isn't the obvious that you're a hard worker.

[801] I think that that's awesome and there's a lot of people that are hard workers.

[802] To me, what's really admirable about it is when you are known as an actor and people like you and they like you in that lane and you come out and you go, but I'm a poet and they go, fuck you.

[803] Or you go, but I play bass and I It's weirdly scarier when you have something you've excelled at and then you're going to start all over again and try something completely unproven that you know the bar is going to be high and that the critics are going to be rough.

[804] So that is what I admire about you, is that you would go, fucking, I'm going to do this.

[805] And you had to have recognized the stakes or the risks, yeah?

[806] And you just didn't stop you.

[807] Well, I don't know what other people think about, but I often think about my obituary.

[808] You know, I really find myself thinking about it, and like, I remember this filmmaker, Michael Amarada, offered me a film of Hamlet.

[809] And I remember a couple of my people around me, friends, and this thing, don't play Hamlet.

[810] It's so pretentious.

[811] People think you're so pretentious already.

[812] If you play Hamlet, I mean, if you play Hamlet, they're just going to make fun of you so much.

[813] And I remember, it's just my brain.

[814] My brain thought, yeah.

[815] But I'll play Hamlet Yeah You know, like big fucking deal They make fun of me And I felt like When If you can't take Being made fun of Right If you can't take it Then they're right The funny thing is I realize this If you know people would say Oh he's writing a novel He wants to be taken seriously And I remember my brain went Well no I don't If I want to be taken seriously I'd keep acting Like I know I'm going to get made fun of So why would you say that But then I realized that, oh, do I want to be taken seriously?

[816] Because if this hurts my feelings, clearly I do.

[817] And I remember thinking, you know what?

[818] No. I don't want to be taken seriously.

[819] I remember this setting.

[820] There's a great Alan Ginsberg interview.

[821] You remember when he was on Carson and he would chant Ari Krishna.

[822] And like, I don't know if it's true or not, but the story is like William Burroughs or Kerouac or one of the guys said afterwards, don't you know the whole country's making fun of you?

[823] And he said, yeah, I don't know.

[824] But I'm a poet.

[825] And that's my job.

[826] My job is to fuck up the Johnny Carson show and make everybody realize that this is our life.

[827] You know, like, wake up, wake up, wake up.

[828] We're alive right now.

[829] You know, and that it's my job is not for everybody to like me or say, good job.

[830] What a nice poet.

[831] That's a good rhyme.

[832] Yeah.

[833] That's not my job.

[834] Yeah.

[835] You know, and I remember thinking, that's so cool.

[836] So what's cool is if you're following your North Star and you're able to kind of, put everyone else's opinion, dial it to a, you know, mute it down enough, you can end up succeeding whether or not anyone else thinks so, right?

[837] Which is a very liberating thing.

[838] So you've made a few movies and I would, I wonder if you feel this way that if you make the movie you wanted to see, you've won.

[839] Is that how you approach making a movie?

[840] You've cursed in the show, right?

[841] You said I call it the fuck you power.

[842] Okay, right?

[843] And the power's like, Vince and I did a play together once.

[844] It was called Clive and it's based on Brex Ball.

[845] It's a modern, and if you do Brex Ball, Brex Ball is not trying to be liked.

[846] Brex Ball's trying to be incendiary.

[847] In the same way that like early punk rock bands would get on stage and just scream, it's kind of designed to make you go, to wake you up.

[848] You're coming to the theater, you want to kind of fall asleep and have a nice, hazy dream that lets you cry at the right time.

[849] And Brecht was saying, no, people are, you know, I mean, he's trying to violently wake you up.

[850] And Vincent and I worked in this play, and we got to a place.

[851] I remember, it was really fun of sitting there and looking at the set, looking at what we're doing, and going, I believe in it.

[852] Do you?

[853] And it's a great feeling.

[854] When you know you do, and when we didn't believe it, we kept working.

[855] And, you know, we kept working.

[856] Now, and we're, okay, we got it.

[857] This is what, we'll die on this hill.

[858] Uh -huh.

[859] And I'm okay, Don.

[860] You don't have to like it.

[861] I'm not saying that it's actually good or something.

[862] I have no opinion about whether it's good or not good.

[863] It's what we were trying to do, to your point.

[864] And when you've done that, you can say, I remember, like, I knew, say another actor in the show, I knew he was good in the show.

[865] I didn't think he was good in the show.

[866] I didn't think he was good in the show.

[867] I didn't wonder if she was good in the show.

[868] I knew they were.

[869] And that's called the fuck you power.

[870] So somebody writes something bad about them.

[871] Fuck you, you're wrong.

[872] And you have to kind of hold that in your...

[873] Because everybody's got an opinion in the arts.

[874] And they're allowed it.

[875] That's the job of it.

[876] They're allowed not to like it.

[877] They're not bad because they don't like it.

[878] They're right.

[879] Sure.

[880] Yeah.

[881] And you're also in a business.

[882] The coffee is really hitting index.

[883] I'm really getting passionate.

[884] Oh, good, good, good.

[885] Yeah, it's creeper coffee.

[886] Yeah.

[887] It hits you right at the 30 -minute marker.

[888] But we're in a business where you do movies and you try your hardest on all of them, presumably.

[889] And then there's this huge element of luck that no one really can factor in.

[890] And you've had movies that were huge hits.

[891] You've had movies that weren't and you probably, there's no barometer while making them or, you know, occasionally you know you're in something that, a ship that's taken on water.

[892] When he's working with me, he knows.

[893] Back up the banks, the Brinks truck.

[894] It's going to be all right.

[895] Yeah.

[896] Start shopping from.

[897] property.

[898] But because it's so unknown, really what you have to hold on to or the thing that you can own is just the experience itself, right?

[899] You've got to learn to kind of love and value the process because that's the thing that really your life's really the process.

[900] It's not about that weekend, whether there's a power outage on the East Coast and no one went to the movies, or all these different variables.

[901] So knowing that you seem, and from the outside, I don't know what your internal dialogue has been, but you seem to be someone that's had a really healthy relationship with I'm going to go to a play no now I'm going to stop and I'm going to write a book now I'm going to do this like it doesn't appear that you've taken the low -hanging fruit too often like let's just bring up training day which is another fucking gangster movie oh my god when you've had those moments of a ton of capital because you've just been in something really successful how is it you've been able to decide, no, I'm still going to focus on this next thing that I really care about and not take that, that low -hanging fruit.

[902] Or have you taken it, and I just didn't realize it.

[903] Because you have, you're a human being, you have bills and shit, I presume, right?

[904] You're not independently wealthy.

[905] And the problem is, if you, if you you, you know, that's a funny thing.

[906] I was, when I was, Vincent knows this, I don't know if you remember this, but it's so cliche, what I'm about to say.

[907] It's so cliche.

[908] I'm turning 40, and I can't believe it.

[909] I can't, it comes out of nowhere to me. All of a sudden, I turned 40, and I've been the youngest my whole life.

[910] You know, I was 13.

[911] When I'd signed at my agency, I was the youngest client they had.

[912] My whole viewpoint was that of the youngest person in the room.

[913] And all of a sudden, I was 40.

[914] And I couldn't make sense out of that.

[915] And like, directors were younger than me. Yeah, yeah.

[916] And I just, my brain just wrestled with it.

[917] And I went online to try to figure out what actors I admire.

[918] You know, like, how am I going to live?

[919] All this energy we spend with young people teaching them how to be like 38, how to be 40.

[920] When you grow up and you're doing what you want to be, what's supposed to happen after that, right?

[921] You know, like, there's not this big energy teaching 40 -year -olds how to be 88, right?

[922] No. You're fucking on your own at that point, yeah.

[923] And kids are like, why would you care?

[924] you're like, I mean, I want to live and I want to do shit.

[925] I want somebody to tell me how to do this.

[926] I want to not screw up my life.

[927] I want to not, like, so I'm having these thoughts of like, how the hell am I going to be an 80 -year -old I like?

[928] You know?

[929] And so I started thinking about like, okay, I like Jason Robards, right?

[930] And I start reading about Jason.

[931] I'm up all night because I was shooting a movie and I was away from my family and I'm like, I decided that Christopher Plummer.

[932] Christopher Plummer.

[933] Yeah.

[934] What a class act, man. This guy, I love his acting.

[935] I started, and I started, like, going inside me, you know, the insider.

[936] And, like, going through, he's even got a little part in Malcolm X. He's always doing something interesting.

[937] He's playing King Lear.

[938] He's doing, he's Canadian, he's perfect, you know?

[939] Sure.

[940] And, and, uh, they teach it up there.

[941] And then my, and then my heart breaks, independently wealthy.

[942] Uh -huh.

[943] Because I was like, how do you not, how do you make all these artists, his families, from like a Canadian railway or something.

[944] And I mean, it doesn't take his greatness away.

[945] But it does mean the one of the things...

[946] No, one of the things...

[947] Canadian oligarch?

[948] Boo.

[949] I love the guy.

[950] What I'm not saying, the thing I was wrestling with is how am I supposed to keep chasing my dreams and do all the things I want to do?

[951] And I've, you know, Ryan was pregnant with Indiana and it was my fourth kid, you know?

[952] And so, and I was, the economy was falling apart.

[953] And I was, it was, I'd made it to 40 before I was.

[954] I'd hit that moment where you're scared, shitless about money.

[955] And all of a sudden, I just was...

[956] I'd never...

[957] When Dead Poetry Society came out, I got paid $30 ,000.

[958] I literally, I remember sitting in this apartment in New York and thinking, I'm the richest person I know.

[959] Sure.

[960] I've never met anybody richer than me. You're probably the richest 19 -year -old in the city, yeah.

[961] I remember I went grocery shopping.

[962] You know, I bought Mac and cheese.

[963] I bought whatever I wanted.

[964] You know?

[965] I bought the large Cheerios.

[966] I didn't give a shit.

[967] shit.

[968] You know what I mean?

[969] Gray Pupon, mustard.

[970] If I wanted as many hot dogs as I wanted.

[971] Hebrew National, bitch.

[972] I had a Tycho racetrack in my apartment.

[973] I got three of them to make it really big.

[974] Because I thought girls would like that.

[975] They didn't.

[976] They weren't impressed.

[977] But anyway, so the point, what am I?

[978] Oh, so Christopher Plummer, and I was thinking, damn it!

[979] I can't be Christopher Plummer, because he clearly got to do King Lear got to do, we'll make all these choices, because he could make these choices.

[980] I don't even know the man, right?

[981] But in my imagination, I was thinking he could make these choices just based on art. Yeah.

[982] And I was feeling all these like, damn it, I was going to let everybody, you know, if I don't follow my heart, I'm going to let myself down.

[983] If I do, I'm going to let my family down.

[984] Yeah.

[985] And it was a very, it was a kind of crisis moment for me. And I realized how much I wished I wanted to be independently wealthy.

[986] Yeah.

[987] Yeah.

[988] I actually have more respect for people when they are independently wealthy and they are successful.

[989] Like Julia Louis Dreyfus, she's from the Dreyfus family.

[990] She's amazing, and she's a billionaire.

[991] Her family's billionaires.

[992] I'm like, God bless her.

[993] She's got a work ethic.

[994] I want it.

[995] I know.

[996] I mean, with the Russian oligarchs and fucking Ibiza, like popping magnum fucking champagne bottles.

[997] Yeah, that'd be good for you.

[998] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[999] Lots of jewelry.

[1000] That'd be really good.

[1001] Yeah.

[1002] All right, well, listen, we're running out of time, And what I really want to talk about is two things that you have currently in the marketplace.

[1003] One of them is called First Reformed, which I watched.

[1004] Do you guys see this?

[1005] It's unbelievable.

[1006] It's so fucking good.

[1007] Oh, my God.

[1008] You're so riveting.

[1009] So is the guy at the beginning.

[1010] Who's that guy?

[1011] Do you see it, Vincent?

[1012] What's that?

[1013] Did you see the movie?

[1014] No, I could give a shit.

[1015] No, no, the movie's like one of my favorite things he's ever done.

[1016] kid is amazing he's talking about.

[1017] He's an amazing young actor.

[1018] He plays Michael, and I'm a priest, and I'm counseling.

[1019] He's a guy's having a deep crisis because his wife, he's a young man, they're expecting a baby, and he doesn't want to bring a child into this world when he's really worried about the future.

[1020] And the climate, the climate change and what's happening, and it's breaking his heart because he, and he really wants me as a religious leader to provide some leadership.

[1021] say what are we doing and what is the church doing for the environment for god's earth what what are we doing where are the grownups and how can I pretend to be a grown up for this child when all the grownups aren't taking care of the earth what do we care all these issues are totally irrelevant if the earth catches on fire you know and the filmmaking is so brilliant because in the back he's got the whole time we're having this conversation he's got a screensaver of the temperature of the earth every decade of the last yeah yeah and it's just getting hotter and hotter.

[1022] And it's a very, very well -made movie.

[1023] Paul Schrader wrote Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, American Jigel.

[1024] He's a great filmmaker.

[1025] And it's...

[1026] It's a cool kind of throwback filmmaking style.

[1027] And the reason why he did that different form that you're talking about is it makes your eye think differently.

[1028] Yeah.

[1029] It's a throwback to Bresson or Bergman films and all of a sudden your brain goes, wait, is this an old movie?

[1030] But this is one compliment I'm going to force you to listen to because it really hit me in boyhood.

[1031] I think you're a tremendous actor, but you're not a flashy actor, and I say that as a compliment, but I'll tell you when the power of your acting became crystal clear to me was in boyhood, because you were dealing with a lot of actors who were young, and you were filming at different stages of their life, and they're real human beings.

[1032] So when they're six and eight years old or whatever, they probably are not very self -aware.

[1033] And then when they get to be teenagers, they're very self -aware, and they're starting define their identity and think of how they're coming across.

[1034] So it was interesting to just watch them as humans.

[1035] The kids go through that.

[1036] And what I think is a testament to your acting is those kids were at their best every single time when they were in scenes with you.

[1037] You bring out such great performances in people.

[1038] Something about what you do makes people feel so at ease and so comfortable.

[1039] And it was just, it's so glaring in boyhood.

[1040] And I think that's such a tremendous, marker of a great actor.

[1041] And you could miss it.

[1042] But watch boyhood and watch those kids in scenes with all different people and then just watch them with Ethan, they just lock in and they're real as it gets.

[1043] And it's weird because you're not thinking to evaluate Ethan's acting, but that's really what's happening there.

[1044] It's really impressive.

[1045] I mean, I don't have to say this, but you know that the difference between doing something like this with Dax and doing another thing is that Dax actually means what he says.

[1046] Yeah, you're an incredible motherfucker.

[1047] It's impressive as hell.

[1048] When I worked with Vincent, he makes me worse.

[1049] But that's not because he's not a great actor.

[1050] Because I try and sabotage your performance.

[1051] It becomes your little, like they say every actor has a secret, and your secret is to destroy me in every scene we've ever been in.

[1052] Yeah, and so...

[1053] Try to make the director dislike you.

[1054] So first reform, you guys.

[1055] should see it.

[1056] It's fantastic.

[1057] But then you also have a movie out that you directed and you wrote and you have a writing partner in that one.

[1058] Did you write that with someone?

[1059] I wrote it with Sybil Rosen, the woman who was, she wrote a book called Living in the Woods in a Tree, which is the movie's called Blaze, and it's about the singer -songwriter Blaze Foley, and she was his lover and partner, and I co -wrote it with her.

[1060] No shit.

[1061] The Allie?

[1062] The Allie Shawcat plays her in the movie, and so it's really her story.

[1063] And we worked on it together because, you know, I didn't know the man, and she did.

[1064] Right.

[1065] It's incredible, and the performance by Ben Dickey, if you guys haven't seen Blaze, you've got to go see it.

[1066] Well, let me tell you a little bit about that, because the man's sitting right to my right.

[1067] One of the things, I took a huge gamble, and I wanted to make a movie about music, and I wanted to cast musicians.

[1068] So I knew this musician I loved, his name's Ben Dickey, and I watched his band for years and I'd always wanted him to act because he has a powerful charisma when he's on stage playing.

[1069] And if I thought about this idea of, well, if I was making a movie about a blues musician, you know, I should get a musician.

[1070] I got Charlie Sexton, who is one of the best guitarists of my generation.

[1071] But when we were starting this journey together, Ben had never acted before, and I was going to put him in, you know, every scene, it's not a little performance.

[1072] It's a big bravora performance.

[1073] So I sent him to Vincent's house, you know?

[1074] Oh, boy.

[1075] You know, Vincent is the only, I shouldn't say only.

[1076] But when I think of the people, when you are 18 and in front of the camera, you learn by fire.

[1077] I've learned on my own, pretty much.

[1078] And I've read books and I see other people's work, but I've pretty much cobbled together my own education, but the person who reached inside me and spoke to me about acting in a way that made sense was Vincent.

[1079] We met very young.

[1080] No, Vincent Price.

[1081] Yeah, oh, no, not him.

[1082] Different Vincent.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] Oh, I thought everybody just assumed it was Vincent Price.

[1085] Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[1086] I'm sorry.

[1087] There's a joke I like to make, you know, like, every year you watch the Oscars and you watch these big, showy performances, and I always, I'll lean over to my wife and say, it's so funny about acting, right?

[1088] which is that most of the people that win these prizes and stuff are working with a world -class director, with a world -class cinematographer, with the best, with a Pulitzer Prize -winning writer.

[1089] Hans Zimmer scoring it.

[1090] Yeah, they got the best musician scoring.

[1091] If you weren't good in those movies, you suck.

[1092] You know what I mean?

[1093] If you watch criminal intent every night, okay?

[1094] My wife and I watched Criminal Intent, like, this is an Academy Award -winning performance.

[1095] There's no lighting.

[1096] There's no writing.

[1097] There's no plot.

[1098] And the guy's fucking brilliant.

[1099] You know, give it to some English dork who, you know, I mean, Jesus, makes me crazy.

[1100] And so I sent, I sent Ben to Vincent.

[1101] And it was one of the most, we had some charity function like in, and Ben went over for his first workshop meeting with Vincent.

[1102] And I was so nervous because I was like, what was I going to, I was deep in already, you know.

[1103] I'd raise the money.

[1104] I'd say, it's like, what am I going to do if Vincent says this guy can't act?

[1105] You know what I mean?

[1106] Because it was a big gamble.

[1107] I really didn't know.

[1108] You know, my gut.

[1109] My gut said, this guy has something in him that's dying to get out.

[1110] And music is where it's channeled right now.

[1111] But if I could just change that dial and let him apply his.

[1112] artistry in this other medium and have it be in a subject matter about a musician who couldn't get it out do you know the subject matter and the performance could be an intersection that was what cinema loves right and i remember we were at this like function and then i saw that you called and i was like but i couldn't pick up the phone because i had to so i went to the bathroom you know to listen to the message and i couldn't be and and i and it said it said you are so fucked And then I lost it.

[1113] I was like, what am I doing?

[1114] What am I doing?

[1115] What am I doing?

[1116] And then I pressed like replaying.

[1117] He's like, you are so fucking lucky.

[1118] This kid is so good.

[1119] And then you sent me some stuff that you guys were working on.

[1120] You make them sound like a jeweler in the Diamond District.

[1121] Like you got your hands on a jewel.

[1122] You got to send it over to him.

[1123] It's a little bit like that.

[1124] We do that a lot.

[1125] We actually do that a lot.

[1126] Yeah, we do it a lot.

[1127] And, you know, the funny thing is sometimes what Ben would say if he was here is it's kind of like you just put him on a path of what acting wasn't.

[1128] He had this idea about what acting was, like a lot of people do.

[1129] What's very hard to do is get rid of those phony ideas.

[1130] And you gave him permission to channel the same guts, the same heart, lungs, guts.

[1131] into that he used in his music see no no no just take that put it on the line put it on the text put it put it here put it in your guts and give it here and connect and connect and connect you know your turn is coming my friend yeah yeah yeah yeah well this is very reminiscent about what Vincent says about my acting which is don't ever take a class because the one little thing you do well it might kill Well, it was a wonderful thing And I could be on set with Ben And I could say, because I know Vincent really well And I could say just little key words That Ben would know exactly what I was talking about And it just unlocked And I'm really great One of the reasons why I'm so grateful to be here with you And I know that you guys are great friends And all joking aside I know Since the time that I agreed to be here You can't believe how many people.

[1132] People told me how lucky I am.

[1133] No, you know, people really, really have.

[1134] And so I really want to thank you.

[1135] But I really also wanted to take an opportunity to publicly for Ben and I to say thank you to Vincent.

[1136] You know, Ben's, it's been an amazing experience putting this performance.

[1137] If you get a chance, come see it's called Blaze.

[1138] He's unbelievable.

[1139] Yeah, he and Charlie and Alia, Josh.

[1140] Oh, I'm really proud of the act.

[1141] He's so good that I went, oh, this guy's probably a huge star, that gained a bunch of weight and I don't recognize it.

[1142] That's my only explanation that makes sense.

[1143] Oh, yeah.

[1144] Exactly.

[1145] I was just waiting to see in the credits.

[1146] Christian bail.

[1147] But I want to thank you both.

[1148] You know, the best part about, well, my favorite thing about getting to do this job we're so lucky to do is not all the things that I thought were going to be great, you know?

[1149] I thought money would be more fun.

[1150] than it is.

[1151] I certainly don't want to give it up, but I thought I would be thirst in the howl and people carry my shit around, whatever.

[1152] It just wasn't that.

[1153] The thing I didn't expect, that is the hugest gift of all this, is we get to meet each other, and you get to hang with people who have dedicated themselves to this kind of exploration, and you guys have met each other, and that's really the number one thing, isn't it?

[1154] Isn't that the best part of this?

[1155] Yes.

[1156] It's funny.

[1157] My son, my son's 16 and you know he's studying history and everything as he does and he was thinking about the expression the pursuit of happiness and he was like isn't that actually everything it's the pursuit of it people think it's going to be grabbing it holding it like i can own it like i can put it my bank account or i can build it or i can it's actually the pursuit of happiness is happiness yeah it's it's relationships when you think back in the favorite moments of your life they're like, go into the party.

[1158] You know, it's walking somewhere through the park when it's snowed.

[1159] It's always so simple.

[1160] Connecting with another person, it's probably the best thing that's ever going to happen to you.

[1161] You have a struggle to achieve 100 % even though you know you can't.

[1162] As an actor, that ends up to be your performance, that struggle, to pursue.

[1163] Where you fall is actually the most interesting part.

[1164] Same way with your kids.

[1165] You know, your kids always hate whatever unique about them, you know, whatever is like their weird, eccentric thing.

[1166] Yeah, my kid's got a horn, yeah.

[1167] Well, I did want to tell.

[1168] I'd probably remove that, but never.

[1169] No, you know what I mean?

[1170] What's unique about us is what we feel shame about, and oftentimes that shame creates tripping behavior.

[1171] That's what's beautiful, and the same thing as an actor, your shortcomings, if you let them be, are actually going to be what's most interesting.

[1172] Yeah.

[1173] You know?

[1174] Yes, for sure.

[1175] I just need to know really quick the first time you saw Vincent's character Mag 7 you know what was your reaction to that I was the first person to see it you were yeah yeah yeah have you guys seen Vincent mag 7 Vincent he's amazing in the movie and they hired him to be this big macho Paul Bunyan type guy and Vincent we're on the car going to set and he's like we're driving there and he says you know sometimes really tough guys that really high voices?

[1176] And you kind of think it's funny that this tough guy has this high voice.

[1177] He's like, I'm going to do that.

[1178] And I was like, no, you're not.

[1179] Don't do that.

[1180] I'm so glad you brought it up.

[1181] But I cannot tell you.

[1182] I was there first time when Denzel, Chris Pratt, Antoine Fuqua, all the producers and Vincent's on stage going, hey, guys, what are you over here?

[1183] And you should see Denzel going to go.

[1184] Because everybody's trying to be so macho, you know?

[1185] Yeah.

[1186] And then, but the funny thing, because Vincent's so intimidating, I just watch, nobody said anything.

[1187] And everybody's like, okay, yeah.

[1188] And Antoine goes like, do you want to do another take?

[1189] And it's like, no. And so, and then I saw the producers all like scurry over and start whispering in Antoine's ears.

[1190] And I just saw you answer on, go, you tell him.

[1191] That's the advantage of being a full -blown lunatic.

[1192] Everybody's scared to you.

[1193] Speaking of Vincent's special abilities, he's promised me something today.

[1194] If anyone listened to his episode, he revealed something so exciting.

[1195] He said he's going to do a little magic trick for us.

[1196] And I'm the magician's assistant, so this is the...

[1197] my dream come true.

[1198] It's going to be really super quick.

[1199] This is going to play so well on the podcast.

[1200] That's what you get for coming to a live show.

[1201] You get something special.

[1202] So the thing about magic.

[1203] Oh, boy.

[1204] The thing about magic.

[1205] And the reason I stopped doing it is because I find it to be one of the most unsexy things ever.

[1206] No, Monica.

[1207] No, that's the whole thing.

[1208] This is the one woman.

[1209] That's right.

[1210] Okay, so Corinne, you better watch your man right now because Monica's about to come on glued So two pieces of the paper This is called a trading thing But we both, right?

[1211] Okay?

[1212] So I need to take one, you take one, hold your hand to hold it tight though The thing is to hold it tight Put your hand over here Oh boy, I'm so nervous Before you do the trick Can I just ask you really quick How many years since you've done this trick?

[1213] 30 I don't even know if...

[1214] I don't know if it's going to work.

[1215] Okay.

[1216] But the magic word is fuck it.

[1217] Okay.

[1218] So, fuck it and tap my hand.

[1219] Fuck it.

[1220] No, fuck it first and then tap my hand.

[1221] All right.

[1222] Fuck it.

[1223] Okay, so...

[1224] So, for the listeners at home, what just happened was Vincent bisected Monica.

[1225] Yep, yep, yep.

[1226] Pretty much.

[1227] He juggled her torso and legs, threw her up in the air, scatty wampus, and when she landed, she was a perfect snowman.

[1228] That's exactly what this is...

[1229] Guys, you got to go.

[1230] I also want to mention, Vincent, you made a movie called The Kid that Ethan's in, and you directed that movie.

[1231] I did, I did.

[1232] And how was that experience for you?

[1233] It was the first time in my life that I've been directed by somebody who knows a tremendous, amount about acting.

[1234] I mean, it was one of the things, it was so much fun.

[1235] We made a western called The Kid.

[1236] It's a retelling of the Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid story.

[1237] Dane Dayhand plays Billy the Kid.

[1238] I play Pat Garrett, Chris Pratt.

[1239] What happened there?

[1240] Something this.

[1241] Second magic trick is he breaks the microphone.

[1242] And we shot it out in New Mexico.

[1243] It was a lot of work for you, but it was a lot of fun for me. And did you try a new accent like, hi guys.

[1244] Stick him up, motherfuckers.

[1245] Benignis to give him a taste of his own medicine.

[1246] You know, the thing is, when it comes to him, it's like, he's like the perfect Pat Garrett.

[1247] Like, you just, he could play Pac -Garrett right now on the stage.

[1248] I mean, it's like he is Pat, like...

[1249] But I'll tell you this, thank you.

[1250] But the amazing thing is about Vincent is his understanding of acting is actually really, he's been doing it a long time, he's taught it for a long time, He knows a lot about it and the nuance of it and one of the things here's an interesting thing Training Day I'm going in for my screen test who do I call Vincent right and I'm like I got to do this I got to do this I got to do this and it's not what you think about a voice or tagging it or something there's a time for that and there's a time for something because I was all worried about how I was going to bring I was going to do this with the character I was going to do this I needed a secret and Vincent basically said let's play a game what if you were enough what if there was no secret what if you went in and looked you just go in you're good you know who this guy is be you in this situation looked in until in the eyes and answer him on just like the same thing I would say to Ben when we were doing blaze you know be you breathe and respond find your voice and don't don't be fancy don't be important Don't be amazing Disappear Disappear with him in his imagination Go go go fly And it was very liberating the idea of what if I am enough Like what if I don't have to be better than I am to be good You know and it's one of the things It's really hard about working with great people You know like somebody like Denzel Washington Somebody who really excels at what they do You have to believe in yourself Or you completely let them down Because you know Being intimidated by them is not helpful to them you know that is not i keep my daughters going into acting now and that's one of the big things you have to say is like they're not there to teach you they're not your dad i am you come to me with this stuff but when you show up on set do your thing have an idea i mean that's what it does make magnificence seven a richer more full movie that that guy is not a cardboard cut out of another macho person vincent is putting a human being in the middle of this you know swashbuckling western and in the movies better for it.

[1251] But nobody told him to do that.

[1252] He's not waiting for permission to do that.

[1253] You've got to go claim that.

[1254] And Vincent gave me permission to do that on Training Day, and it was a huge leap in my life.

[1255] Well, we are both lucky to have Vincent in our corner.

[1256] And that's why we didn't talk to him in the whole podcast.

[1257] No, he's the sweetest.

[1258] He doesn't want to be here.

[1259] He came out here to help me talk to you, and I love you so much.

[1260] You're the sweetest.

[1261] Of course, Monica.

[1262] I love you.

[1263] Ethan, thank you so much for coming.

[1264] So great to talk to you and meet with you.

[1265] You guys, put it together.

[1266] Great to meet you, Zach.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] What's up, guys?

[1269] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[1270] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[1271] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[1272] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[1273] And I don't mean just friends.

[1274] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[1275] The list goes on.

[1276] So follow.

[1277] Watch and listen to Baby.

[1278] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[1279] Hey, fact check, you're so fine, you're so fine, you blow my mind.

[1280] Hey, fact check.

[1281] Hey, fact check.

[1282] Hey, fact check, you're so fine, you're so fine, you blow my mind.

[1283] Hey, fact check.

[1284] Hey, fact check.

[1285] That was to Hey, Mickey.

[1286] I know, cool.

[1287] You know that song?

[1288] I do.

[1289] I actually do.

[1290] Hey, Mickey, you're so fine, you blow my mind.

[1291] Wouldn't you love to be Mickey in that song?

[1292] I don't even know if Mickey's a boy or a girl in this scenario.

[1293] Or a mouse.

[1294] Or a mouse, a very famous mouse.

[1295] Could be.

[1296] If it was about Mickey Mouse, I bet he didn't even care because he gets so much attention anyways.

[1297] Yeah, everyone already knows he's fine.

[1298] He's very fine.

[1299] He knows that about himself.

[1300] He's one of the sexiest mice I've ever seen, you know?

[1301] Top three for sure.

[1302] Yeah, behind Mighty Mouse and Modest Mouse.

[1303] All very fine mice.

[1304] That's true.

[1305] The three blind mice.

[1306] The three blind mice.

[1307] No, I think they're, what do you mean they suck?

[1308] No, fuck Mary Kill, you're killing the three blind mice.

[1309] I don't think so.

[1310] I think they're incredibly resourceful.

[1311] They're blind and they're still doing all kinds of stuff.

[1312] Three blind mice, see how they run.

[1313] They run.

[1314] Okay.

[1315] All right.

[1316] What else are they doing?

[1317] That's impressive.

[1318] Go on.

[1319] I don't remember the rest of the rhyme.

[1320] So.

[1321] They're to be admired because they're persevering even despite the blindness.

[1322] Exactly.

[1323] But that doesn't put them on my hot, lit list.

[1324] All right.

[1325] Well, you care about things that are different than what I care about.

[1326] Right.

[1327] You care about running.

[1328] Personality.

[1329] Well, hold on.

[1330] No one said that these mice have a good personality.

[1331] They have fantastic personalities because your personality gets better when you have to deal with something hard.

[1332] When you have to overcome something?

[1333] Yeah.

[1334] All right.

[1335] I've never met a blind person with a bad personality.

[1336] How many blind people have you met?

[1337] And I want you to be honest.

[1338] I don't think you've ever met a blind person.

[1339] I don't think you've met one blind person.

[1340] I don't think so.

[1341] I don't think so.

[1342] You don't know me. You met me a couple years ago.

[1343] You don't know how many blind people I've met.

[1344] Well.

[1345] I've met.

[1346] Go ahead.

[1347] I'm thinking.

[1348] I knew it.

[1349] All right.

[1350] Blindness must be really rare because I was racking my own brain.

[1351] I don't know.

[1352] I mean, I've seen someone on the street, of course, with the cane and whatnot.

[1353] Yeah.

[1354] I'm always so impressed.

[1355] If I'm in New York City, which I've seen.

[1356] seen that there a few times like I'm nervous navigating those sidewalks and crossing those streets and to watch a blind person do it is incredible do you sometimes think they're faking they never ever think that do you that's very cynical I think you think that no yeah no no no I mean I guess maybe if I've seen a homeless person panhandling and they've got the cane by them that person I might be suspicious of okay but not the person going about their business crossing a busy street in Manhattan with the cane, no. Do you think they like the attention?

[1357] I don't even think they're aware of the attention they're getting.

[1358] No, you can feel attention.

[1359] You think so?

[1360] Yeah, you know, the eyes are on you?

[1361] Yeah, you can feel it.

[1362] Even when people are behind you, but they're staring at you, you can feel it.

[1363] Oh.

[1364] I do.

[1365] Maybe you have more acute spiky senses than me. Anywho.

[1366] I have a lot of good senses.

[1367] Knowing that you and I both have seemingly never had a conversation with a blind person, it makes me think it must be a very low percentage.

[1368] of our population that is struggling with...

[1369] Blindness.

[1370] I would agree, and I think that's great.

[1371] Me too.

[1372] Well, you know what?

[1373] My very best friend in the whole world was legally blind.

[1374] Legally blind.

[1375] Now that's much different.

[1376] I'm best friends with a blind person.

[1377] No, you're best friends with someone that's legally blind.

[1378] That means she was blind.

[1379] And I'm friends with someone that was legally blonde, but that doesn't really say anything.

[1380] What was her character's name?

[1381] You know it.

[1382] Okay, Reese Witherspoon was...

[1383] And Legally Blonde, like, share or something?

[1384] No, that's clueless.

[1385] Clute, clue, that's clueless.

[1386] It was...

[1387] What was her name?

[1388] I can't remember.

[1389] Elwoods.

[1390] Oh, yes.

[1391] El Woods.

[1392] Yeah.

[1393] El Woods.

[1394] I should have remembered that because...

[1395] It's popular.

[1396] I know someone who has almost that exact name.

[1397] Mel Woods?

[1398] Your dad's drinking buddy?

[1399] He drinks.

[1400] himself okay okay you're very sassy today i have a hunch it's because you're wearing a red jumper and it's got your confidence i hate to do this again this is not red okay what burgundy wine yeah wine is nice wine bordeaux okay so you've got this bodacious bordeaux jumper mm -hmm i do front overall i do yeah and i think you're feeling a little cocky today it's about time I welcome it.

[1401] Eton Hawk and Vincent D. Yeah.

[1402] So he said that he did, the movie he did in 1985 was a $30 million movie.

[1403] Really quick.

[1404] Who's he in this?

[1405] Vincent or Ethan?

[1406] These are Ethan facts.

[1407] I'll clarify if they're specifically Vincent.

[1408] Okay.

[1409] So if you're just using a general pronoun, he, it means Ethan.

[1410] Correct.

[1411] And then Vincent will mean Vincent.

[1412] Actually, Trevor will mean Vincent.

[1413] That's way too confusing.

[1414] So he says.

[1415] said that this movie that he did in 1985 was a $30 million movie.

[1416] And you said today that's a billion dollars.

[1417] Adjusted for inflation, that's $70 ,506 ,970.

[1418] Big movie.

[1419] Yeah.

[1420] To be about two kids, which ultimately was what the film was about, right?

[1421] It was he and River Phoenix.

[1422] Yeah.

[1423] Yeah.

[1424] Yes.

[1425] So that would be a big budge.

[1426] Big budge for two little kid lead.

[1427] Mm -hmm.

[1428] So you said your Wikipedia page says, your name is daxymus and that must have been changed i believe you that that happened but it's not on there anymore oh that's good you know i put out a call to arms on twitter because you know i think i told you i am barred from wikipedia which is so weird to me i don't know what i've done but i'm unable to edit anything on wikipedia so i put out a call to action on twitter saying if you know how to Apparently, someone fixed it for me, so thank you.

[1429] This really explains a lot that you did that because your Wikipedia page is so extensive.

[1430] It is?

[1431] Oh, my God.

[1432] There's so much information about you on there.

[1433] I've never, well, I've not never read it.

[1434] I read it about eight years ago, and I decided I should never read this again because, and the only reason I knew about the Daxymus thing is that a couple people on Twitter, like, tweeted me. I didn't know your name was Daxymus with the link to the Wikipedia page.

[1435] Got it.

[1436] I didn't then go on to read more.

[1437] But I just, I have to imagine it's just completely chocked full of errors.

[1438] It's not.

[1439] It's all correct.

[1440] It is?

[1441] And it's a lot of info.

[1442] Too much information.

[1443] I mean, I wouldn't say too much, but it was, I was like, whoa, this is a lot of info.

[1444] In what way?

[1445] It took me a long time to read.

[1446] Oh, okay.

[1447] It's a lot of words.

[1448] It's voluminous.

[1449] Yeah.

[1450] And people have just included tiny, tiny tidbits that most Wikipedia pages don't have.

[1451] Oh, okay.

[1452] I found it interesting.

[1453] Do you think it's a result of this podcast?

[1454] Maybe.

[1455] Okay.

[1456] Is it in there that I, like, shit my pants at Home Depot or fuck some jello?

[1457] Is that stuff in there?

[1458] That stuff will be on your page for sure.

[1459] Okay.

[1460] Anyway, so you have a great Wikipedia.

[1461] Good job.

[1462] Congrats.

[1463] No, that's not what I, from your tone and your delivery, I thought you were complaining about my Wikipedia page, but now I see it was a compliment.

[1464] It's hard to know.

[1465] It's hard to know.

[1466] You, again, you've got a real short fuse today, and you're feeling 10 feet tall and bulletproof, as they say.

[1467] That's how you feel every day.

[1468] It feels good, right?

[1469] It's nice, huh?

[1470] Yeah.

[1471] Okay.

[1472] Ethan said that Christopher Plummer's family, he's independently wealthy and that they own a Canadian railway.

[1473] I don't think that's true.

[1474] Okay.

[1475] He is the only child of an artist who was the secretary to the Dean of Sciences at McGill University and a man who sold stocks in securities.

[1476] His great grandpa on his mom's side was the Canadian Prime Minister, Sir John.

[1477] Abbott.

[1478] Was he a railroad baron?

[1479] Magnate?

[1480] I don't think.

[1481] Okay.

[1482] But I could be wrong.

[1483] Who knows?

[1484] But it, I Googled it a lot.

[1485] If you're, we got a prime minister.

[1486] As your grandpa.

[1487] Yeah, you're probably, things probably worked out.

[1488] Probably had some money, yeah.

[1489] But I don't know.

[1490] A couple hundred bucks.

[1491] I don't know if you have that much money.

[1492] Like, think about presidents.

[1493] They don't make that much money in the United States.

[1494] Well, it all depends, though.

[1495] No, they seem to all make.

[1496] Like, George W is fucking loaded.

[1497] Somehow Al Gore got stocked to Apple at some preferred rate.

[1498] He became super rich.

[1499] Well, I think the Bush family is very rich.

[1500] But again, the dad, senior, he was the CIA director.

[1501] All that wealth came post service to the government.

[1502] They weren't like rich and then he became the director of the CIA.

[1503] I think like, no, they go sit on these boards for these crazy fees.

[1504] and they accumulated post -government success.

[1505] And then, yeah, Cheney, he wasn't the president, but he certainly loaded.

[1506] The Kennedys, they were loaded way before.

[1507] Before, yeah.

[1508] But I'm saying as...

[1509] The Clintons, they're loaded, right?

[1510] Now.

[1511] Yeah.

[1512] Because after you can...

[1513] It's a floodgate.

[1514] Yeah, if you open that door, for sure.

[1515] If there's anyone out there that wants me to speak at an event for a million dollars, I'll do it if you're out there.

[1516] Also, you know, people were critical of Hillary speaking to the Wall Street people.

[1517] And I was thinking, well, you're not condoning any, you pay me, I'll go talk to anybody.

[1518] I said the same thing.

[1519] Yeah.

[1520] My parents disagree.

[1521] They love Hillary, but they did not like that.

[1522] She did that.

[1523] I guess if the insinuation is you've taken their money so you're going to owe them something later, I understand and the suspicion there.

[1524] Yeah, yeah, that's what people think.

[1525] But I like taking the money from people.

[1526] I don't like more than I like taking money from people I like.

[1527] Yeah, but I think there's also, I think some people thought, like, that's just such a stupid political move.

[1528] It was, yeah.

[1529] And it wasn't a good one.

[1530] Yeah, it was bad.

[1531] So, like, what is she doing if she's, like, has plans to run and then is still doing this and making these weird political moves?

[1532] My parents, they didn't like it.

[1533] Yeah, and I guess there's scenarios where your involvement appears that you're condoning someone.

[1534] But like if I was a rock star, I'd go play at, I'd go play at Kim Jong -un's birthday party.

[1535] I would just say I don't believe in anything he's doing, but yeah, I'll take $10 million out of his pocket and play.

[1536] I do think it's different when you're the president.

[1537] You're not a rock star.

[1538] I mean, you are.

[1539] You are.

[1540] Obama was.

[1541] I know.

[1542] Yeah.

[1543] I love him so much.

[1544] I really do.

[1545] I would love to hang out with him.

[1546] Yeah, I'm nervous about that.

[1547] I'm not.

[1548] Why?

[1549] You think we're going to have sex?

[1550] No, I would love it if you guys had sex.

[1551] I would be nervous for you that it wouldn't be stimulating the same, what your expectations.

[1552] Rob looks so scared when I said that.

[1553] Do you think he would be rough with her?

[1554] Well, I think he'd be a very gentle lover.

[1555] He's a very small girl.

[1556] You'd probably want to, you know, start off.

[1557] I think he would be so gentle.

[1558] So.

[1559] I think he'd be perfect.

[1560] This is the power of the female mind is that like, when you like someone's integrity and stuff so much, you actually assume they're going to be an amazing lover.

[1561] They will be.

[1562] Which no guy would look at a girl and be like, oh, my God, she's so good at math.

[1563] She's got to be great in bed.

[1564] There'd be no connection to their virtues and what they'd be like in the rack.

[1565] But you do think Obama would really deliver a lot of pleasure.

[1566] No, see, that's, oh, wow.

[1567] Okay.

[1568] Well.

[1569] Is this disrespectful?

[1570] I don't know.

[1571] I think that's why Rob got scared.

[1572] Okay.

[1573] But it's because girls think about the connection that's happening during sex.

[1574] Sure.

[1575] And you don't.

[1576] No, I just think about the connection of the genitals, the genitalia.

[1577] The physical connection.

[1578] The intermingling of the genitalia.

[1579] Yeah.

[1580] Yeah, so it's different.

[1581] Right.

[1582] Why did you get scared when I said I wanted to hang out with him?

[1583] Because I think you probably have an expectation of how stimulating he'd be in real life, but you've only heard him talk when he's making a speech.

[1584] So it's just going to be very misleading.

[1585] Mm -mm.

[1586] I've heard him on interviews.

[1587] Same shit.

[1588] No. I don't think so.

[1589] You think interviews and speeches, you can put together a good sense of how the person interacts outside of those.

[1590] If I'm using you as an example, yeah.

[1591] Okay.

[1592] I think so.

[1593] All right.

[1594] I think you're a lot like the person you present on TV on interviews and stuff, for sure.

[1595] All right.

[1596] I'm just nervous.

[1597] for you that's all okay you can be i'm not nervous for you guys in the rack i think that'll be great for everyone but i'm so tall he's really he how tall is he eight feet oh my goodness well now i'm a little nervous anatomically for you guys but it's gonna be an adventure yeah i guess st bernard's can have sex with chihuahuas and have fertile offspring so sky's the limit look i'm not looking to look i'm not looking to well you wouldn't want to carry his child well yes you would he is a family I know.

[1598] Let's say Michelle was like, Michelle's like, I don't, what if Michelle was like, please do this for him?

[1599] He wants another kid.

[1600] I don't want to do that.

[1601] Monica, please help us.

[1602] You wouldn't want your child to have half his genes?

[1603] I would love that.

[1604] I think that's what I'm saying.

[1605] I can't imagine you wanting to procreate with anyone even more.

[1606] I would love that.

[1607] Even more than Matt and Ben.

[1608] Wouldn't you rather look at your offspring and see half of Obama in the mind and all that?

[1609] I would love that.

[1610] you're right but I would feel bad because he's so tired who is Obama well he was now he's always on vacation and shorts and stuff and he dances when he's places I know yeah he's always eating ice cream and stuff oh he's living his best life there's no question about it pailing around with like Jay Z and Beyonce and whoever else Jerry Slingfeld and Letterman Jesus good good life okay all right let's be serious This is disrespectful to Eden.

[1611] The kid in first reformed.

[1612] Because, by the way, not a kid.

[1613] Everyone was referring to him as a kid because they just mean a young actor.

[1614] Younger actor.

[1615] His name is Philip Eddinger.

[1616] Philip Edinger.

[1617] He was tremendous.

[1618] He was great, yeah.

[1619] Last thing is not a fact, but the story he tells about River Phoenix and the cigarettes.

[1620] Yeah.

[1621] It was so powerful.

[1622] I've told a lot of people that story.

[1623] Yeah.

[1624] And I thought it was such an incredibly skillful way to be truthful and still holding on to your own.

[1625] Privacy.

[1626] Level of privacy.

[1627] Yeah.

[1628] If you want to maintain, it was like you could learn everything you needed to learn.

[1629] Absolutely.

[1630] Yeah, it was done in a very neat way.

[1631] Mm -hmm.

[1632] Yeah.

[1633] Yeah.

[1634] Would you have his daughter?

[1635] River Phoenixes?

[1636] Ethan's.

[1637] And you don't have to have everyone's daughter.

[1638] Do I?

[1639] When we become handmade, when I become a handmade, I am going to have to have everyone's daughters.

[1640] Yeah.

[1641] You're kind of in handmade gear.

[1642] That's basically the same color.

[1643] It is the color.

[1644] But I'm not wearing a shower cap.

[1645] You know, this is my vanity.

[1646] But if I booked Handmaid's Tale, that would be a dream come true and then I get there and then I'm wearing a shower cap the whole show that might be a deal breaker.

[1647] Well, one of your great features is your hair.

[1648] I look terrible without hair.

[1649] I have a terrible face.

[1650] So my hair is the only thing bringing in any.

[1651] You have a beautiful, inviting, warm face.

[1652] You have these big brown round eyes.

[1653] You look like a, no. You shut the fuck up for one second.

[1654] I'll tell you what you look like.

[1655] You know that stupid cat that was in the movies that Tony B. Oh, yes, from Shrek.

[1656] From Shrek.

[1657] Pussy boots.

[1658] So you remember pussy boots?

[1659] You know those stupid big, big round eyes it had?

[1660] Yes.

[1661] That's what you have.

[1662] Okay?

[1663] Yeah, and imagine.

[1664] Now let's go south.

[1665] Okay.

[1666] Your lips are full.

[1667] Your smiles off the charts and it's white as fuck.

[1668] That's because of my toothpaste.

[1669] I don't believe that.

[1670] You have good genetics.

[1671] Okay?

[1672] And then you have got this beautiful caramel skin or caramel.

[1673] And what the fuck?

[1674] Listen, thank you.

[1675] That was a nice string of compliments.

[1676] But when you remove hair, trust me, I wear a shower cap in the shower.

[1677] Oh, you do?

[1678] You're so weird.

[1679] No, I am not.

[1680] You have a squatty potty in a shower cap.

[1681] Don't talk about my squatty potty.

[1682] That bathroom door closes and you just, turn into the weirdest person.

[1683] I do.

[1684] Yeah, you have to put your legs over your head to number two.

[1685] To take a shower, you got to put on a swimmer's cap.

[1686] I wish I had more space in my bathroom.

[1687] To do more weird shit.

[1688] Yeah.

[1689] Yeah.

[1690] It's pretty tight in there.

[1691] But anyway, I have to wear a shower cap because I can't wash my hair every day.

[1692] My hair will get dried out.

[1693] Okay.

[1694] I have a fancy one.

[1695] Not a plastic one that you get at the hotel.

[1696] Oh, all right.

[1697] It really looks like the handmade hat.

[1698] I'm serious, except mine's.

[1699] Black, but that's what it looks like.

[1700] And then when I look in the mirror and I think if I had to be on camera like this, will you please post a picture of yourself in the shower cap with your glasses on?

[1701] Never.

[1702] Okay.

[1703] That's all.

[1704] Thanks for owning your vanity.

[1705] Yeah.

[1706] It's terrible.

[1707] I'm vain.

[1708] Everyone's vain.

[1709] Is everyone?

[1710] Yes.

[1711] Rob, Wob, are you vain?

[1712] Some.

[1713] Who's not?

[1714] I've never met.

[1715] I don't think.

[1716] Kristen's very vain.

[1717] I mean, she regularly is posting pictures of herself looking her worst, intentionally.

[1718] Okay.

[1719] Here's the difference.

[1720] Her worst is still good.

[1721] When you are beautiful like that, you can post pictures of yourself in a shower cap and you still look great.

[1722] Go on.

[1723] I can't do that.

[1724] So I'm not going to.

[1725] I don't have her face.

[1726] All right.

[1727] All right.

[1728] That's it.

[1729] I love you and happy holidays.

[1730] Oh, happy holidays to you.

[1731] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1732] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[1733] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.

[1734] We've all been there.

[1735] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers and strange.

[1736] rashes.

[1737] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[1738] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[1739] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[1740] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[1741] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[1742] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[1743] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.