S1 E11: This is a Pattern

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] This podcast is intended for mature audiences and could be triggering to some.

[11] Please use discretion when listening.

[12] In Gavin DeBekker's book, The Gift of Fear, he writes, Unlike when people lived in small communities and could not escape their past behavior, we live in an age of anonymous one -time encounters.

[13] And many people have become expert at the art of fast persuasion.

[14] Trust, formerly earned through actions, is now purchased with a slide of hand and slide of words.

[15] I encourage women to explicitly rebuff unwanted approaches, but I know how difficult it is to do.

[16] Just as rapport building has a good reputation, explicitness applied by women in this culture has a terrible reputation.

[17] A woman who is clear and precise is viewed as cold, or a bitch, or both.

[18] woman is expected first and foremost to respond to every communication from a man. And the response is expected to be one of willingness and attentiveness.

[19] It is considered attractive if she is a bit uncertain, the opposite of explicit.

[20] Women are expected to be warm and open, and in the context of approaches from male strangers, warmth lengthens the encounter, raises his expectations, increases his investment and, at best, waste time.

[21] I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is, something was wrong.

[22] The following call was recorded on January 22, 2019.

[23] The day that we released.

[24] The day that we released this podcast, the following call was recorded on January 22nd, 2019.

[25] The day that we released this podcast.

[26] Hey, I don't, where to begin.

[27] I am, I am reeling.

[28] My mind is reeling.

[29] Dude.

[30] I'm brain dead at this point, to be honest.

[31] Wait, Sarah, is this the first day of the rest of our lives?

[32] This is, I'm.

[33] Oh, my God.

[34] Um, how are you feeling, Sarah?

[35] Actually, it was weird.

[36] It's just as of like 10 minutes ago.

[37] I was sitting there assessing going, okay, I feel like the weird foggy cloud is lifted.

[38] This day was like just total crapshoot.

[39] It was weird.

[40] like, well, it doesn't help when you've got, like, just PMS throwing itself in the next.

[41] Oh, God.

[42] I don't know.

[43] Today, I think, was just mostly, I was numb until I saw, like, the excessive posts.

[44] Birthday posts?

[45] Oh, my God.

[46] And then I was just, it felt like, you know how, I know, like, in the beginning, I always, I hear my own voice in the podcast.

[47] My chest goes cold.

[48] But I'm like, that kind of happen.

[49] But, like, your stomach just starts to twist around.

[50] And I'm like, oh, it.

[51] I don't know, I felt sick.

[52] That's what it was.

[53] I just felt sick.

[54] Yeah.

[55] He posted 50 photos, basically, total.

[56] Yeah, pretty much.

[57] It looks like he posted, like, once every year he's been alive or something.

[58] Oh, God.

[59] Honestly, every picture.

[60] I've been looking at his story, but I'm like, maybe I should stop.

[61] Yeah, I had to tell myself to stop.

[62] I was just like.

[63] It's too much.

[64] I was just thinking maybe I don't want it to stop because you can see my name.

[65] Oh.

[66] Yeah, there's that.

[67] Well, the thing that, okay, I don't want to, like, re -traumatize you at all, Sarah.

[68] So if you don't even want to talk about this, we can move on to this new girlfriend situation.

[69] But basically what I took away from the birthday post was like, if I was trying really, really hard to make my ex -fiancee feel like shit about herself, I would post what he posted today.

[70] That was where I was like.

[71] That is my interpretation.

[72] Even if this is, okay, let's say this is, like, he's a normal guy.

[73] Let's say that none of the crap happened.

[74] I would look at all that and go, dude, if you really are a man of character, you're pleading hard for sympathy.

[75] Like, yeah, I mean, I know people that have gone through hell, like, I mean, literal hell, and they don't post like that.

[76] Sarah, do you think he knows about it?

[77] Podcasts?

[78] Yeah.

[79] I mean, logic, I don't know how he could, and yet, I don't know how he couldn't.

[80] his ex has told me multiple times he's got eyes everywhere i mean he knew so much about her you know goings on and everything i'm like how how would he not wouldn't he talk wasn't he still talking to her when you guys are engaged or something he was when he and i met in september as according to her they were still like full speed ahead he was saying i'm going to marry you um because we met on the 14th and her birthday was on the 18th and she was like let's put it this way things were still like as usual.

[81] He ghosted her early October, and that was when he started flying me around all over the place.

[82] That was like whirlwind time.

[83] And then it was the end of October, she said that she finally got him on the phone and kind of like pinned him down asking, are you with somebody?

[84] Because she knew he kind of had a pattern of just going radio silent if he was chasing someone else down.

[85] But then he would always come back.

[86] So now she's at the point where she set up with this crap and is like, okay, he's seeing somebody.

[87] And now there's no going back from this kind of thing.

[88] She didn't, I don't know if she really saw my face until photos were posted on engagement day.

[89] He's really good at his timing.

[90] Right.

[91] Yeah.

[92] I thought, I even thought, yeah.

[93] If the podcast, there was nothing about the podcast, let's say that he saw nothing online about, like, right on my block, whatever.

[94] It's still a dick move.

[95] Does he, is he hoping that I'm watching him or is he just doing this for a general public?

[96] Like, yeah, y 'all know I got engaged a year ago today, but look at me, you know.

[97] Oh, I think it's achieving all of the.

[98] those things.

[99] It was so apparent to me that he, in his words, he wanted people's sympathy, but he wanted to look strong.

[100] He wanted to look smart.

[101] Like he's living his best life.

[102] He wanted to look smart, but like he was humbled.

[103] Everything was orchestrated.

[104] He wants the best of every world.

[105] He's terribly, terribly broken, but also, and I quote, living the life he dreamed of.

[106] Is that what he said?

[107] Yep.

[108] Because he was 30, he was 30 when you were together still.

[109] Yeah.

[110] Yeah.

[111] And he's talking about, giving me the life I dreamed of or something.

[112] And I like, It felt like a knife with my stomach.

[113] I was like, that was for me. Oh, fuck.

[114] Yeah, it was.

[115] I'm so sorry, Sarah.

[116] Circpentine, you will.

[117] So I just, I can't let this go with her.

[118] With the new girlfriend?

[119] Yeah.

[120] That's how a week ago, not this weekend, but the weekend before, that they went skiing.

[121] They were on a snow trip or something.

[122] And I think they've been commenting a little bit, because I feel like, I feel like we had talked about her.

[123] Yes.

[124] Yeah.

[125] Like a couple weeks ago.

[126] Yeah.

[127] I mean, they've been, I mean, they're, they're using the L word, they've been, this started a while ago.

[128] I mean, well, for him, at least three weeks.

[129] Also, real quick to backtrack what you were saying about, about him, he was still talking to up until October, you said.

[130] Yes.

[131] And you started dating in September.

[132] Yes.

[133] And in that YouTube, and that's of 2017, to be, right?

[134] Yes.

[135] Okay.

[136] So that YouTube video that I found of him, which aired.

[137] November of 2017, he says in the video that he fell in love with somebody in August.

[138] He said August?

[139] He said August.

[140] Oh, he was exaggerating.

[141] So he was exaggerating even there.

[142] But, like, I'm not going to see that?

[143] I mean, can you imagine, though, how difficult it would be to maintain all his timelines?

[144] Right.

[145] Now that you say that, oh, my gosh, I never thought about that, that hello, I see that, but, like, he cares.

[146] It's the first thing when you Google his name.

[147] that pops up.

[148] Oh, my gosh.

[149] So, like, and if, with her, with everything she dealt with with him, why wouldn't she be Googling and making sure that, like...

[150] I have, like, a lump in my chest right now.

[151] I did.

[152] I forced myself to do, like, a liquid reset today, because my stomach has just been up, down.

[153] Like, I'm like, okay, enough it does, I'm taking control.

[154] Wait, what's a liquid reset?

[155] Because I think I had that, was, is that like when you have liquid diarrhea that burns all day?

[156] Oh!

[157] Or are you describing something else?

[158] No, it's literally like I think Dr. Oz I think it's by Dr. Oz.

[159] Oh my God.

[160] It's like an intentional thing.

[161] Oh, because I was going to say I was definitely on some sort of liquid, you know.

[162] But there's, I mean, that's a thing.

[163] I get it.

[164] I'm not saying I'm mad at it, but it was a different, you know?

[165] Like my pants are looser, but.

[166] Yeah, okay.

[167] Sorry.

[168] I'm not trying to give Ryan a bunch of credit.

[169] here but credit where credit is do we were talking the other night and it was like there's a chick and like he's like you guys gonna see anything and i was like well it's not my it's not it's not i just don't really feel like it's my place and he's like why do you not feel like it's your place now like because like it didn't happen to me like i don't know and he's like yeah but like she's your friend and you know everything like you know that it happened and like he's like you don't feel any like and then i was like yeah of course i do like of course i feel like oh little bit of responsibility because yeah it didn't happen to me but I have I have as much knowledge as anybody other than you Sarah and like your closest family and so like I've just been like I can't stop thinking about or her and like it's almost keep going keep going sorry well I don't know I just I was thinking more about it today and I was like no like it needs to be Sarah it needs to be like Sarah Dick is going to like spin whatever fucking thing she hears and it's going to be like you know well of course my ex is going to throw me into the bus and and why would she and why would she not believe him you know like at this point he probably hasn't done anything to cause her to question yeah yeah so i don't know i'm not saying like i'm the person but i'm just throwing it out there because yeah but like if it's like how could it why would it not be you right because i don't have again like i'm like i don't have again like i I don't have a ball in the game.

[170] I'm not trying to get with him.

[171] He's a piece of it.

[172] Like, that's not the point.

[173] Like, I don't have, I'm, this is not my game to play.

[174] You're not making anything up.

[175] It's nothing vengeful.

[176] It's public information that she can access and make a decision with from there.

[177] Right.

[178] You're an outside party that's like, why wouldn't you?

[179] I mean, hopefully she's not so far in that mentally, you know, when you get far enough, you almost don't.

[180] I mean, like, when my roommate told me what happened a maple, look what I did.

[181] Like, nothing.

[182] I was already too far in to act.

[183] Well, and I was thinking, too, like, people have exes, you know, people, people get engaged and break it off.

[184] That doesn't mean they're a sociopath.

[185] So, you know, like, you know, if we had said something to you, you may have not, I don't know, you know, there's no knowing, really.

[186] But now it's like, there's a pattern.

[187] There's two of you now.

[188] This isn't just, like, you know, he made a bad mistake.

[189] There was a bad match.

[190] They broke, you know, he broke up with her.

[191] Like, you know, this is a pattern.

[192] Yeah.

[193] There had been two people.

[194] I would, it would have been different.

[195] Like, for me, what I would have done, even if I had believed her, I would have gone to him and been like, what do you have to say for yourself?

[196] Right.

[197] He would have probably had a lot to say and had me convinced that, you know, somehow it turned around and he would probably take just.

[198] enough ownership of just enough things and say, I'm willing to work this out, and I probably would have tried to walk through it with him.

[199] Right, right.

[200] But if there were two of them.

[201] Right.

[202] It seems like they're still in the honeymoon phase.

[203] Like, God, I don't know.

[204] I'm totally speculating from an outside perspective.

[205] I can tell you from his laugh.

[206] This sounds so, like, that laugh, I will never forget the night that we met friends of his in Colorado.

[207] And I remember the night I talked about where we stayed up until like 10, 10 .30.

[208] and we're like drinking wine, talking about life and kids and just dreams and all that stuff.

[209] I had never, like, he was in real, real social mode, and I remember he and the husband were in the kitchen and the wife and I were at the table and he let out this laugh.

[210] And I thought, keep in mind, we're at like peak honeymoon phase here.

[211] I am on cloud nine and I, my gut turned.

[212] And I was like, that laugh was fake.

[213] That was something forced about that laugh.

[214] And the wife said, I just love that laugh.

[215] I've missed it.

[216] And I was like super polite.

[217] I'm like, yeah, but really something in me. I never forgot that moment.

[218] And I even through the I love yous and the, I mean, it was, I think the trip maybe after that right before that that we said, I love you and all that stuff.

[219] I never forgot that moment.

[220] And that was when he was in like real charm mode because his goddaughter was there.

[221] Like, I mean, these were people that he really, really needs for his image, really bad.

[222] I never forgot that laugh.

[223] And it was the exact same laugh in his stories when he was with his new girlfriend and those other people.

[224] And I was just like, oh my gosh, she's working it.

[225] But I never thought and laugh outside of those situations.

[226] Yeah.

[227] Yeah.

[228] I mean, would you just like reach out to her on Insta?

[229] Yeah, I would.

[230] But I think I would like draft it and run it by you guys.

[231] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[232] I'm trying to think of when she will be most receptive and also not with him.

[233] And if it's a Friday night, you know, chances are higher of them being together.

[234] You're so smart, Sarah.

[235] Of course.

[236] Yeah.

[237] But, you know, Wednesday, middle of the day, he's probably.

[238] you know, at his fancy little Instagram -friendly job.

[239] Do you think he has my address in his phone from when you guys came to my daughter's birthday party?

[240] No, I was navigating.

[241] You were?

[242] Yeah.

[243] Oh, God bless.

[244] Okay, good.

[245] I can't believe, Sarah, do you know that, have we talked about this that I met?

[246] Dick?

[247] Did we talk about this before?

[248] Dick, what?

[249] At your daughter's birthday party.

[250] We just, yeah.

[251] So you were leaving.

[252] when I fucking got there because she was like, I was like, wait, I met a really nice couple at Alyssa's daughter's birthday party, and I remember thinking they were such an attractive couple, and she's like, well, the only other couple that came was them.

[253] And I remember shaking his hand, because I remember thinking, I'm not even kidding you, I remember thinking your eyes are dead.

[254] Yes.

[255] And that's the only reason I remembered it.

[256] Because I remember thinking such an attractive couple, like Alyssa's got good -looking friends.

[257] And then I remember, like, you were really sweet and you were just like, oh, hi, we're on our way out.

[258] Oh, my gosh.

[259] You know, the baby's so cute, blah, blah.

[260] And I'm like, oh, yeah, nice to meet you.

[261] And then he was like, hey, what's up?

[262] Like, youth pastory is the only way I could explain it.

[263] I felt like he was probably wearing cargo shorts and a polo when he was doing it.

[264] But I just remember looking at his eyes and just think.

[265] on fire.

[266] I just remember it because I just remember thinking like disingenuous.

[267] So when Alyssa said that, I was like, it like shook me again because I was like when she said that and then I connected the memories, holy s. Oh my gosh.

[268] Oh my gosh.

[269] Well, and in that moment, you probably saw more than other people did because no offense, but you didn't matter.

[270] Mm -hmm.

[271] Right.

[272] You know, you didn't have to impress you.

[273] So a little bit of that wall kind of comes down.

[274] Sarah, do you think, like, sooner is better?

[275] Yeah.

[276] Do you think?

[277] I mean, yeah.

[278] As far as, like, from an emotional damage standpoint for her, the sooner is better.

[279] If we're talking, like, hours versus days, I think.

[280] Sure.

[281] You know, in the next, like, I'm thinking, like, two days, like 48, 72 hours that she would need to be contacted.

[282] I don't know why we'd wait beyond that.

[283] Well, especially with the podcast being out.

[284] like, you know, podcast is out.

[285] And chances are that they're just now posting, posting on social media, like, there might still be a chance to kind of get through to her.

[286] Yeah.

[287] I don't know.

[288] I mean, I'm really curious what I, I mean, I'd love to talk to her and find out, when did you guys meet?

[289] How soon, how soon was he on the hunt?

[290] How soon did he tell you he loved you?

[291] And what did he, obviously, of course everyone's going to want to know this, but what did he tell you?

[292] What does he have everybody believing?

[293] Like, how has he taken such a massive story and turned it into?

[294] such a, you know, I would just start off with instance, see where it goes.

[295] And then if, honestly, if it's not successful, we can call in someone else.

[296] Yeah.

[297] I mean, if she starts getting multiple messages from people, she doesn't know.

[298] Yeah.

[299] Like, hello.

[300] Do you think, and sharing the podcast seems like a very good thing to me?

[301] At some point, yeah.

[302] I mean, I wouldn't, like, march into it.

[303] At some point?

[304] Okay.

[305] I mean, very soon, but I don't, I picture it a few different ways.

[306] like I wouldn't like message her just like with the link or um right like I wouldn't do it like in the very very very introductory part of the conversation but I would definitely mention it be like obviously I'm not going to come up with the wording but in my brain what I was writing already was like I know this message is going to seem really difficult to believe you know but I'm pretty sure there's a lot that you don't know and I feel like it's my duty I just feel protective of you, you need to be able to make an educated decision.

[307] And there's a lot that I know there's no way you know.

[308] It happens to be out on a podcast that's still in progress right now if you want.

[309] But if you don't want to listen to that yet, if you'd really like to just chat with me, you know, you can have my number.

[310] But please let me know if you're willing to talk to me because me and hundreds of other people have the exact same story that I'm pretty sure you don't.

[311] Something like that.

[312] Like to just get her to have open ears.

[313] Right.

[314] So you mean don't open like I did with my message to real Kimmy.

[315] Hey, so this is going to be the weirdest message on Instagram you get this week.

[316] Sorry.

[317] I cope with laughing.

[318] I'm sorry.

[319] Yeah, so Alyssa, you're going to draft it then and run it by Sarah first.

[320] Yeah, I'll just put it in the text out with you guys.

[321] I'm not going to be it.

[322] Oh, God.

[323] If I send it, I'm not going to be able to sleep.

[324] If I don't send it, I'm not going to be able to sleep.

[325] Well, you know that if you send it tonight, she's not going to read it until tomorrow.

[326] It's like midnight over there.

[327] I think they're too often.

[328] And it's his birthday.

[329] still.

[330] Ooh, don't send it.

[331] So they're probably together.

[332] I'll draft it tonight.

[333] I won't send it.

[334] But, yeah, they're probably together.

[335] All right, I'm going to draft it.

[336] You guys give me any and all feedback, please.

[337] Okay.

[338] I feel like I'm never going to sleep again.

[339] Yeah.

[340] Probably not.

[341] Yeah, I'm like looking at all my oils on myself going.

[342] Seriously, I'm about to go find that stress reliever you made me. Where is that shit?

[343] I need to make you something heavier.

[344] Oh, my.

[345] Girl, what you got?

[346] You got that legal good, good, or what?

[347] I'm in there.

[348] Okay, everybody gets sleep and rub ourselves in oils, and we will recap.

[349] We will reconvene.

[350] Okay.

[351] All right, happy, first day.

[352] Happy for day one.

[353] All right.

[354] Love you.

[355] Good night.

[356] Good night.

[357] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[358] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[359] In January 2020, local woman Karen Reed, was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[360] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[361] What happens next?

[362] Depends on who you ask.

[363] Was it a crime of passion?

[364] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[365] This was clearly an intentional act.

[366] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[367] or a corrupt police cover -up.

[368] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[369] Everyone had an opinion, and after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[370] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[371] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[372] You can listen to Karen, exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[373] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[374] I'm Dan Tibertsky.

[375] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[376] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[377] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[378] She's like, I can't.

[379] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[380] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[381] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[382] Everybody thought I was holding something bad.

[383] Well, you were holding something back in tensionally.

[384] Yeah, yeah, well, yeah.

[385] No, it's hysteria.

[386] It's all in your head.

[387] It's not physical.

[388] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[389] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[390] Or is it something else entirely?

[391] Something's wrong here.

[392] Something's not right.

[393] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[394] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, hysterical.

[395] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[396] You can binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[397] The following interview was recorded this past Wednesday, March 13th, 2019.

[398] So it was on his social media and it was on the anniversary of our engagement.

[399] I think we found her before that, though.

[400] We knew that there was something because there were some comments back and forth, so there was definitely like a highlight on this person.

[401] And I was like, okay, flirting, you know, we'll see.

[402] But then it was just blasted out there on our engagement anniversary.

[403] They were going on like weekend trips and there was definitely the L -bomb and it was no questions, you know, no questions about it.

[404] They were definitely a thing.

[405] And there was a story, a video of them together.

[406] So it was undeniable that it was real.

[407] Yeah, yeah.

[408] Arms around each other.

[409] Yeah.

[410] Within a couple of days, I think, like, they were out at dinner for his birthday.

[411] And it was definitely an I Love You Post.

[412] And it was like something about, like, you know, basically this woman has saved me from my horrible, painful life.

[413] And I love her.

[414] I didn't mention this before, but the birthday post.

[415] Oh, that's right.

[416] With the, like.

[417] You refreshed my memory.

[418] I had totally forgotten about the 50.

[419] picture birthday posts.

[420] Yeah, like five separate posts with the max number of posts within those posts.

[421] Probably characters too.

[422] Yes, no, I was going to say then the captions beyond them.

[423] Like, if you're going to go through and read all of his birthday posts, you might as well just go to a birthday party because it's going to take that long to read everything.

[424] But he had a lot to say for a 31st birthday, which, you know, not going to lie, felt a little personal, but it's cool.

[425] And his birthday was right before.

[426] Is it before?

[427] or after your engagement anniversary?

[428] We got engaged on January 20th, and his birthday is January 22nd.

[429] So he posts the 20th about the new girlfriend.

[430] And then on the 22nd, the day that the podcast first came out, right?

[431] Yeah, that was great.

[432] Then there was like five or six separate posts with, I don't know what the max number of photos is you can include in a post, but whatever that is, they were there, like 10.

[433] Yeah, yeah, they were all maxed out.

[434] and in there I think there were photos of mostly him, animals, him with other friends, animals, other friends' kids, and some kids.

[435] And then some, I don't know if she was actually in any of those photos, but they definitely commented.

[436] I think she was in like one or two.

[437] Okay, okay.

[438] Then it was like, okay, full speed ahead, this is a thing, we're happening.

[439] Oh my gosh, I just found the birthday post.

[440] Oh, you screenshot of that?

[441] Yeah.

[442] While scrolling through photos to choose for this highlight reel, I'm struck by the realities of 30.

[443] It was probably the hardest year of my life, which isn't captured.

[444] What isn't captured is pain, the anxiety, the anger, the regret, the sadness, the fight, the all -out brawl that was.

[445] 30.

[446] I'm thankful for that, though.

[447] It's in the war of life that you learn the most.

[448] You learn how broken you are, just how much you need Jesus.

[449] You learn that you can't do it by yourself.

[450] You need Kimmy and Brian.

[451] Nope.

[452] Okay, where was I?

[453] You learned that you couldn't do it by yourself, that you need herds of humans to love you, to support you, to challenge you, to fight for you, to lift your head when you can't lift it yourself.

[454] But for those that loved me well, thank you.

[455] I wouldn't be the man I am today without you.

[456] For those who fought for me when I had no fight left, thank you.

[457] I wouldn't be the man I am today without you.

[458] For those who didn't abandon me in the mess, thank you.

[459] I wouldn't be the man I am today without you.

[460] For those who chased after me when I tried my best to hide, thank you.

[461] I wouldn't be the man I am today with you.

[462] Looking at 31, the realities.

[463] that await are incredible.

[464] 31, like quite the opposite of 30.

[465] I know there will be brawls, fights, and wars.

[466] But I know that my Jesus is in them the more.

[467] So thinking about 30, I wanted to leave something here.

[468] Never give up, even if you have to crawl.

[469] Don't you dare give up.

[470] Never love with conditions.

[471] Jesus is the example.

[472] Strive for it.

[473] Does it keep going?

[474] Oh, it does.

[475] Never forget you've got the scars that will keep you from getting as many.

[476] Never make excuses on seeing family.

[477] It's far more important than you think.

[478] Never use absolutes.

[479] They are almost always wrong.

[480] Always do your best.

[481] Assume the best in people.

[482] Always pray.

[483] It's far more powerful than you think.

[484] always spend time in silence and solitude your soul needs it always do your best to pour your life out for others you'll be incredibly full always do your best to go to church they are your family dear 30 thank you what i noticed a lot is it leads you to kind of read between the lines and what you start to feel is oh this is a very broken person who's also the best person in the whole world That's just the impression you walk away with.

[485] But if you start to break apart the words and analyze the actual sentences and their structure, none of them actually are specific or really lead to anything or make sense.

[486] It's just more like, thank you all for loving me so, so well.

[487] 31.

[488] So which alludes to you thinking, I really need grace.

[489] Maybe kind of, sort of.

[490] But also, I have a killer job.

[491] I'm in love.

[492] I'm the best I've ever been and I am living the life that you know I think that everyone would want to see me living there's a kind of a weird coincidence about this date there are a lot of dates but this one was kind of a big one last year I mean I don't want to make any assumptions that this was directed at one person in particular don't want to assume but you could have picked any date you just so happened to get engaged on this day a year ago you could have waited for your birthday It's your birthday.

[493] It's your day.

[494] It has nothing to do with me. January 20th, I've had a heck of a lot to do with me. But now there's a new girl.

[495] Go on and live your life.

[496] But in any normal breakup, you know, I think most people kind of think through those things and maybe be aware of the fact that the whole world knows that, you know, less than a year ago, May 2018, you were about to walk down the aisle.

[497] And now, what was it, nine months later on the date that you.

[498] posted a photo of a ring with another girl, you're saying 31's giving you the life you've always dreamed of and there's a different girl in your photos.

[499] But he doesn't, you know, think through all that.

[500] I think the main goal is to put out an image that promotes success.

[501] And in his mind, this is success.

[502] He's in love and he's financially successful.

[503] And from all outward appearance, also humble, do you want people to think you are?

[504] So in all aspects, he's crushed it, but also really humble.

[505] But this is, that's what, and I think what's heartbreaking at the core of it all is I know that, like, people, people often strive to put forward what they desperately want other people to think.

[506] And if he truly was satisfied, if he truly was, if he didn't hate himself, he wouldn't want everyone to love, you know, what they see so much.

[507] You don't feel the desire to get affirmation like that.

[508] So I think what's really sad is at the core of it, what I've felt in my gut is that it the core is self -hatred but there's nothing obviously that I can do to change that you know I think that social media too makes it really really easy to get that kind of validation and affirmation like so much so much easier than it's probably ever been even in a healthy you know non -sociopathic people it bakes for it it's yeah it's narcissistic by nature you know social media.

[509] So someone that already, you know, is desperate for validation and desperate for approval and wants to, you know, believe that there's something that they're not or wants someone to believe that there's something that they're not.

[510] It is set up.

[511] 100%.

[512] And needs constant stimulation.

[513] Well, there's endless amounts of that on the internet.

[514] You got all these different platforms.

[515] And if you also don't want to be alone or you hate to be alone with your own thoughts.

[516] The internet is there to be your outlet.

[517] You can just fill it.

[518] So the feelings around being responsible of like wanting to reach out to her.

[519] It was such a torn mixed feeling because there's this sense of justice.

[520] Like I cannot allow this to happen on my watch and almost a sense of like a feeling of solidarity between this girl and myself.

[521] I mean, not to mention the fact that she even just looking at photos, you know, you can see a lot in someone's eyes in a photo and you can see this is a genuine girl who seems sweet and she just looks like a good person that sounds like a snap judgment but you can you know you can see a lot in some photos and so my justice meter is shooting through the roof and I'm just like not on my watch but also having been there I have you know pretty strong memories of where your brain is at where you're what you're thinking in those moments and what you want to see and what you don't want to see and all your preconceived ideas and And if she has nothing contradicting all the rosy, you know, honeymoon feelings that she's got, yes, she has a possibly jaded ex -fiancee coming in to say that this person who has quite literally swept her off her feet is crazy, who's she going to believe?

[522] You know, and there's no way that I could go back and determine what exactly I would have done if his first ex -fiance had contacted me first, quite honestly, having full trust and faith in my boyfriend at the time, I might have gone to him and said, hey, what do you have to say and tried to assess it, would have ended up in a mind spin and been words saladed like crazy and thought, oh, crazy ex -fiance, and maybe it would have been even harder for her to get a hold of me or me to listen to her later, because I would have had even more to unravel.

[523] So I've got these conflicting timelines going, now is the time, but also maybe wait, but also maybe get in there now and risk rejection, and wait until crap hits the fan, and maybe she'll still have my number and remember that she can call me when the crap does hit the fan.

[524] Just pray that it hits the fan before she walks down the aisle.

[525] So, I mean, and then that's when Alyssa, like we were all talking about, okay, well, now we feel like something needs to happen.

[526] So we just, you know, we discovered her and we knew that they were, like, a thing for sure.

[527] And I remember we waiting on, like, you and how you were in communication with his first ex, first fiancé, whatever, and that you guys were like talking about it and thinking about it.

[528] And I remember you saying that in the text started a lot, like, not on my watch, not on my watch.

[529] And I was like, okay, good, yes, awesome.

[530] But I just, like, it was just like a weight inside of me and I could not let it go.

[531] And I was just thinking about like, well, at first, I was like, this isn't, it's not my place to say anything to her because this did not happen to me. And this isn't my news, you know, this isn't my story to share.

[532] And then there was a turning point where I thought, just because it didn't happen to me, doesn't necessarily mean it's not my story to share.

[533] Like, obviously it's your story.

[534] But, um, I had more information than most people, you know, other than like those, your family.

[535] And so I felt a certain responsibility as a woman with this information to protect her, to give everything to her.

[536] And the more I thought about it, the more we talked about it, it kind of almost felt like I should and not you.

[537] because I didn't have a leg in the game Dick didn't hurt me directly so you know if she came back to him and was like Alyssa on Instagram messaged me all he would say is well she's crazy feminist of my crazy feminist friend of my ex -fiance she's she's crazy you know like it's not gonna like he's gonna be like she's out to get what's he gonna say about me he can say whatever the hell wants and he probably would.

[538] But I just thought, well, first I thought if this podcast is for one person, it's for her, if it's for no one else.

[539] And so I just felt this weight and I could not let it go.

[540] So ultimately we decided that I actually was probably the right, you know, person to say something.

[541] I wanted to say something, what part of me felt like this is not my cross to bear kind of thing this is not my hill to die on which sounds so counterintuitive to really what I care about most but it's really weird to be in that position and feel like I I am the one who knows best of all people what she needs to be saved from like his ex -fiancee and I are really the only people who can you know truly I mean obviously other people who've been through this but I mean in this particular with this person and his ammo and all that stuff that's why I felt like I shouldn't say something at first but exactly and I get that but also Also, you are an objective party who is very diplomatic.

[542] You can approach it like, look, I watched this go down.

[543] Woman to woman.

[544] Here is what happened.

[545] And now you can make an educated decision about the person you're with.

[546] And I thought, this makes perfect sense.

[547] Yeah.

[548] I knew that you would stay logical and that you would just give the facts.

[549] And there wouldn't be any drama.

[550] All right.

[551] So I wrote this on January 23rd.

[552] So this is the second day the podcast was out, I think.

[553] Dick's Instagram and her Instagram were both public.

[554] Okay.

[555] Hi, Blank.

[556] I'm not sure how to start this message, so I'll just get right to it.

[557] One of my best friends was engaged to your boyfriend, Dick.

[558] Less than nine months ago before she called off the wedding.

[559] She, Sarah, was his second fiancé.

[560] He has shown a pattern of dysfunctional, even dangerous behavior in his romantic relationships and now has two women he's nearly married.

[561] I'm not sure how much information he's given you, about his past relationships, but if you ever wanted to talk to me, or dozens of other people who can vouch for his ex, I would be more than willing to talk to you.

[562] I feel a responsibility as her friend and as a woman to give you this info about your boyfriend so you can make an educated decision about him and his character.

[563] Before you ask him about this, know that he will make every effort to put himself in the best possible light, and that it might be in your best interest to hear all sides of these stories.

[564] I sincerely wish you the very best, and I am sure that you are a strong, intelligent, fiery, incredible woman as Sarah is who deserves to know every bit of truth.

[565] She waited, I think, like, four or five hours.

[566] So, of course, I was refreshing.

[567] She said, hi, Alyssa, what is Sarah's side of the story?

[568] So at that point, I'm like, here you go.

[569] And I thought, I'm not going to give, like, every gory detail, but I'm going to give the big stuff.

[570] So I said, they met in September of 2017 and got engaged January 20th, 2018.

[571] Their wedding was going to happen on May 20th.

[572] I met him once in November at Friendsgiving and once in March at a birthday party.

[573] Sarah discovered about a week before their wedding that Dick had been texting her from two other phone numbers through their whole relationship, posing as a married couple that he had been friends with for years, people that in actuality don't exist.

[574] Sarah also found out soon after that he had physically abused her dog her roommate at the time was a witness, enough to cause her dog to have a hip injury.

[575] He was emotionally abusive towards her, and lied to her and her family about many different things.

[576] There's a lot more to it, but those are some of the big details.

[577] I know this is a lot of weird information to receive on a random Wednesday, and I hope that you know this is all coming from a place of deep concern for your well -being, nothing else.

[578] Sarah knows that I reached out to you and would be willing to talk to you and show you screenshots of the text messages, there are many.

[579] Here is Sarah's phone number as well as both her IG accounts that she asked me to give you, sending love from California.

[580] And then I included both Sarah's Instagrams and her phone number.

[581] So then, so that whole day, we were like monitoring their accounts.

[582] And I remember around like five o 'clock, because I remember like where I was, I was going to Starbucks to finish working.

[583] and all of a sudden, both of their accounts went private.

[584] And so the three of us were like, oh, shit, like something happened.

[585] And she never wrote back again.

[586] And she never wrote back, and I kept refreshing it, refreshing it, and refreshing it, and then all of a sudden she blocked me. Next time.

[587] A message on Insta, it just has the blue photo, and there was like three of them.

[588] And then underneath it said, It hurts my whole heart to hear how he met and hurts Sarah so completely, just a few months after him and I met.

[589] Something Was Wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

[590] All of the music this season is by the band Gladrags.

[591] A special thank you to Sarah, her family, and friends for participating in this series.

[592] Check out Sarah's personal blog, Space and Purpose, linked in the show notes.

[593] Thank you to Alyssa and Ryan Doyle for their time, support, and hype.

[594] Shout out to my husband Michael and our three amazing children, Jude, Ruby, and Ozzie for cheering me on every step of the way.

[595] Subscribe now and follow the hashtag, Something Was Wrong Pod, on Instagram.

[596] If you like something was wrong and you're not a troll, please consider leaving a five -star review and sharing the podcast with any human you've ever met.

[597] We will soon be recording an AMA Q &A episode, and we'd love to hear your questions.

[598] If you would like to ask a question, please give us a call at 1 -323 -379 -5678.

[599] And leave us a voicemail with your first name, location, and question.

[600] Your voicemail might be shared on a future episode.

[601] If you or someone you know is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 Safe.

[602] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[603] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

[604] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.

[605] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[606] I'm Sachi Cole.

[607] And I'm Sarah Haggy, and we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[608] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[609] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together, stealing from them behind their backs.

[610] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[611] Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[612] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.