196 - The Baddest Of Them All

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] My favorite murder, the maxi -sode.

[2] I've been listening to old mini -sense.

[3] You have?

[4] I'll admit it.

[5] Okay.

[6] And?

[7] It's pretty funny.

[8] I don't know.

[9] I like it.

[10] I'm always, you always got to say to me, I've been listening, and I'm like, oh, fuck.

[11] Listen, I've been listening, and we really got to tighten the shit up, especially the intro.

[12] I don't know how to do that.

[13] I wouldn't know where to fucking start.

[14] I'm actually not that interested in doing that.

[15] We're in an office.

[16] What more do you want?

[17] Yeah, we are indoors.

[18] Stephen has all kinds of equipment.

[19] You should see the equipment.

[20] We have a lovely lamp lit because we don't want overhead lights disturbing our precious, precious eyes.

[21] Because Grandma is 69 years old, nice.

[22] And goddamn, fluorescent lighting is rough.

[23] I was thinking how fun it would be if we recorded at my house with the fire going in the background.

[24] But then that would be really distracting to people who don't like the sound of fire.

[25] Places.

[26] Not just like a lit fire.

[27] Either we light the house on fire and then try to record and get it done before the whole thing goes up.

[28] That's the challenge.

[29] We start the fire downstairs.

[30] Ready?

[31] Trash can.

[32] Ignite.

[33] Go.

[34] On the count of five, we're going to start a fire and then record a podcast.

[35] There's just one episode.

[36] You know what's really funny.

[37] It makes me think of and it's, it's, you got it.

[38] I'm not going to do it.

[39] I'm not going to do it.

[40] What could have Karen said?

[41] What do you think it would have been?

[42] I want to talk about.

[43] And you, Stephen, you're the one that's going to help me here.

[44] Sound it out.

[45] Our friends.

[46] Sound it out.

[47] Have a podcast.

[48] I'm friends with one of the people on the podcast.

[49] It's called podcast, but outside.

[50] And do you know those guys?

[51] Oh, yeah.

[52] It's, um, oh my God.

[53] Why can't I remember his?

[54] Tall, comic, who's hilarious in skateboards.

[55] Yes.

[56] Um, nice.

[57] This is boring and dumb.

[58] I can see his face.

[59] I can see his face.

[60] Well, you look at podcast, but outside.

[61] They just podcast outside.

[62] They just set up a card table somewhere and see who comes and talks to them.

[63] That is so brilliant.

[64] It's really enjoyable.

[65] And they've gotten into some shit.

[66] It's really fun.

[67] Andrew Mishon.

[68] It's Andrew Mishon is the one I know.

[69] And then Cole Hirsch.

[70] Cole Hirsch is the other host.

[71] We'll have to listen.

[72] I love that idea.

[73] They've done at the beach.

[74] They did it at Cole's or Andrew's father's third wedding.

[75] Oh, my God.

[76] I want to say third.

[77] I follow them on Twitter, but it's really funny.

[78] to just see when they post and they're like we've got another one we're at the where could they be we're in the Santa Monica promenade or whatever oh I love that and they just set up and like have to podcast what happens I love that that's so creative I think it's super it's super genius sorry tell me what yours was oh my I have one it's called family secrets I really love this podcast um it's hosted by Danny Shapiro who's this incredible author and speaker and she has she interviews people who have had these crazy family secrets in their life that come out or that they kept their whole lives They just found out.

[79] There's a lot of, like, my DNA testing and this crazy thing came out.

[80] And, like, that's kind of shit.

[81] But the stories are so heartfelt and beautiful, and the podcast is beautifully done.

[82] Wow.

[83] Family Matters?

[84] Family Matters?

[85] Family secrets.

[86] That is a TGIF show starring Urkel.

[87] Herkel has a beautiful podcast.

[88] Okay.

[89] I mean, I guess.

[90] Every way you look.

[91] Oh, no, that's family secrets.

[92] Family secrets.

[93] Danny Shapiro.

[94] Oh, well, then if we're going to do this, I'm sorry, I forced us into a podcast, Roundup, but let's be here.

[95] I don't even know why I was mentioning podcasts, but outside.

[96] Oh, I guess it was just like, we can podcast in any situation, but fire podcast.

[97] Someone's already doing it.

[98] Podcast on fire.

[99] Podcast on fire.

[100] We're basically taking Andrew's idea and then just upping it a notch.

[101] But I did want to mention do you know Chris Garcia?

[102] He's a comic from San Francisco that I'm friends with.

[103] I think I've met him.

[104] You would know him from like shows around town, but he has a podcast called Scattered.

[105] And I was on it, Harvey says guest one time, because his dad died of all timers.

[106] And so he and I had this conversation that's pretty great.

[107] I love him very much.

[108] And he and I, it's not like we came up together or anything.

[109] We didn't know each other that well.

[110] And then we kind of did shows together and figured out both of our parents.

[111] His father had recently died and my mom was still alive with it.

[112] And it's this very strange, immediate bonding, amazing thing.

[113] And we had this conversation talking through the experience that I, loved.

[114] And so they're re -releasing it on November 22nd with more time, I guess, an extended version of the conversation.

[115] Because I think we talked so long that like there were producers that were like on the phone in New York that were, I'm sure sitting there like, well, we can't interrupt them.

[116] They're both crying.

[117] But we have to stop recording this podcast.

[118] So if you're interested, and that's something that isn't a devastating bummer to you.

[119] Well, one of the things I love when we do meet in graces or when people meet you, as I hear them say, thank you for talking about what you went through with your mom.

[120] I'm starting to go through it.

[121] I've been through it, whatever.

[122] And like, talking about it with other people, I'm imagining and hearing other people talk about it would be so, you know, gratifying.

[123] Yes.

[124] I think it's such an isolating experience.

[125] Yeah.

[126] That any time you get a chance to hear anybody else talk about it and talk about the guilt and talk about the horrible parts, it does, I think.

[127] It definitely helps me when, you know, like when he and I talk.

[128] So anyway, if you want to listen to that.

[129] Little things that like you keep secret and you don't want to talk about because it's too deep and it's too much with anything in life, all these fucking struggles we go through.

[130] And the minute one person goes vulnerable and starts fucking talking about it, everyone else is like, oh, I don't have to be ashamed of this.

[131] And someone else knows what I'm going through.

[132] And then you meet random people and you're like, maybe they've been through that too.

[133] And then you bond with them.

[134] And because you never know what people are going through until they fucking talk about it.

[135] That's right.

[136] And oftentimes people have been raised not to talk about The whole setup in our family, and I think in a lot of, I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's Irish Catholics.

[137] I don't know if it's like the second generation immigrant.

[138] I don't know what it is, but it's like your problems are not relevant to other people.

[139] They're not anybody else's business.

[140] It reflects poorly on the family.

[141] And you do not talk about that.

[142] All you do is put on a brave face and go to work all the time.

[143] And that's the solution to everything.

[144] And it's like the relief that people hear from.

[145] The thing a lot of people say to me is, like, when you talk about how, like, much you hate the parent that has this disease, which is such a terrible feeling.

[146] Well, that's so taboo.

[147] You don't hate that parent.

[148] You hate the person, I'd imagine, that is going through these things and it's become this different person.

[149] Yeah, you hate this situation.

[150] Right.

[151] But it comes out terribly.

[152] But hate's okay, you know?

[153] Like, hate is an emotion that we all have and talking about it isn't fucking the end of the world.

[154] And you're not a bad person because you are suffering under.

[155] excruciating circumstances.

[156] Fucking crazy.

[157] Say the name of the podcast again?

[158] Chris Garcia.

[159] It's called Scattered.

[160] Oh, did you have a corrections corner?

[161] Oh, I do.

[162] Our best friend, our number one fan, and the man who has brought all of our web platforms together.

[163] Thank God, Denton.

[164] He's the reason the fan cult is fucking awesome now.

[165] Yes.

[166] And the website.

[167] And the website.

[168] And the merch store.

[169] And the fucking.

[170] I mean, he's, he's really, and he's my old friend.

[171] I know, when he came to him, he was like, let me fix this.

[172] We didn't have to be like, can you help us?

[173] He was like, this sucks.

[174] Can I help?

[175] He came and was like, me and my 26 -year -old cousin need you to fix this website immediately.

[176] And we're like, we want to so bad.

[177] Anyway, he let me know on episode 193.

[178] I said that the fan cult, basically when you, if you break it down, it costs $0 .25.

[179] I claimed that it cost $0 .99 a year.

[180] It's $39 .99 a year.

[181] yes or something and so I claimed it cost 25 cents a day well then immediately texted us in that episode came out and said actually I want everyone to know that it breaks down to 10 cents it's 10 .9 cents a day wow just less than 11 cents a day wow now not everybody has 11 extra cents a day understandable in this fucking day and age we get it so fine but if you think you can scare up 11 cents a day for a year you can join the fan cult and the fan cult's fun we post videos every week We post a new live episode every month that isn't ever going to be probably maybe played on the show.

[182] Released.

[183] Release, thank you.

[184] There's a fan cult merch store that's exclusive, really rad merch for fan cult members.

[185] And also, now we have fan cult gift memberships available in the regular store that you can buy for your friends for the holidays.

[186] Yeah, that's very cool.

[187] If you don't have the 11 cents, but you think your mom might, you can go ahead and drop that hint, put it on your list.

[188] that that's what you'd like for the holidays.

[189] That's a great point.

[190] And also when you join, you get 20 % off your first, like, merch purchase, total.

[191] Were you going to call it a merch purge?

[192] Merchis?

[193] Merchis.

[194] Oh, that sounds gross.

[195] It does.

[196] Your first merches, you get 20 % off.

[197] You put it in your Merce, your man purse after you merches it.

[198] As a path of merches in.

[199] So you can get a lot of gifts for the holidays.

[200] And we're going to, oh, my God, we're about to fucking drop, as they say.

[201] An album?

[202] Coolest merch.

[203] The most fire album of 2016.

[204] That's right.

[205] It's going to be just flames, the sound of flames.

[206] On the side of my face.

[207] We actually are so excited about the merch items that are coming out.

[208] We're collabing with a really awesome murderino maker.

[209] We'll tell you all about it.

[210] There's good, good stuff coming.

[211] And also, Denton wanted to tell us that tell you that everyone, the men...

[212] This is Denton's Corner, really.

[213] Many members of the fan cult are up for renewal.

[214] Happy FanCold birthday.

[215] If you were on auto renewal on the old site, you still need to renew on the new site because we made it better and different.

[216] Basically, it's a brand new website.

[217] So if you don't expect anything to happen automatically, please come over and update and start afresh.

[218] And we are working very hard to make sure that it's worth your 11 cents day.

[219] We really fucking are.

[220] We really are.

[221] We're even getting into the occult for you.

[222] Just so you know.

[223] Get in that forum and say what's up to Marty.

[224] Yeah.

[225] who bought himself a fan called membership.

[226] He didn't try to get it from me. I wanted to see what the experience was.

[227] I fucking swear to God.

[228] Marty's a lover of life.

[229] Marty is a supporter of his children.

[230] Oh, I have to tell you something.

[231] Okay, let me get this out of the way.

[232] And then, like, less than a week we're going on tour in the UK.

[233] It's the lash of our shows for 2019.

[234] Jesus Christ.

[235] Isn't that crazy?

[236] I'd love to know the number of shows we did in 2019.

[237] Stephen.

[238] Don't do that right now.

[239] That's a lot.

[240] I think it's 60 something.

[241] It's got to be 60 something.

[242] Well, so there's a few tickets left for Manchester on November 22nd, Glasgow on the 23rd, Dublin on the 24th and 25th.

[243] It's like, it's like 96 % sold out on those ones.

[244] So get your tickets to you guys and come see us.

[245] Please come see.

[246] We're already preparing our stories.

[247] Yeah, we're going to be so prepared.

[248] It's so exciting.

[249] I'm at one of those places in the like coming up.

[250] to tour where I'm like I can't wait to get on that plan and sleep I know you know it's we uh there's nothing more fun than touring it's really a joy but when you do it for six months straight and go through two full seasons it gets a little you get a little bit a little bit exhausted or a lot and then have a nervous breakdown we should have a bit of a nervous breakdown we had to though but it's I'm excited because usually when we're on the road or at least the process has been up until this point.

[251] We go on the road.

[252] We find our stories.

[253] We write last minute.

[254] There's a lot.

[255] We add in the tension, which is kind of how I always kind of do everything.

[256] But this time we're like, we've already done it so much that now I'm like, I regret all those times the last time we were in Ireland and the UK where I sat in a hotel room because I couldn't get my shit done in time.

[257] Totally.

[258] And basically didn't get to look at stuff.

[259] We're going to explore.

[260] We're going to go for it.

[261] We're going to do it.

[262] I have just a quick thing to tell you.

[263] Okay.

[264] It's on the same level.

[265] and plain and like of existence as the cocaine bear Oh, okay I love that level of existence Vince read me this headline today and I was like text that to me immediately I have to tell Karen Farrell Hogs find and destroy $22 ,000 worth of hidden cocaine I love those fucking feral hogs I want to read you this one line It's in Italy These motherfuckers Okay it says An unknown number of boers Allegedly dug up and destroyed this gang's packages of cocaine dispersing their contents in the woods.

[266] It was not immediately known what happened to the curious animals.

[267] Oh, they're just kind of out and about now.

[268] Yeah, that's from Newsweek.

[269] Yeah, we don't know.

[270] So we have cocaine hogs now.

[271] They're down shooting pool and smoking a ton of cigarettes.

[272] That's where they are.

[273] And plans for a restaurant.

[274] Let's make our dreams come true.

[275] Tapas.

[276] I want to talk about stuff.

[277] Sushi, but tapas.

[278] Sushi.

[279] Jam bands.

[280] She put top us.

[281] Okay, well, then in that realm of I want to tell you something, this is the new segment, I want to tell you something.

[282] Okay, great.

[283] Because I loved some, a listener named Emily George, assuming it's a listener because she's talking about a mini -sode.

[284] Okay.

[285] Remember on minisode 148, the story about the little girl who said to her attorney, father, fuck you, daddy, it's Bobby Shapira.

[286] Of course, it's my lifeblood.

[287] Okay.

[288] Well, Emily, George, tweeted to...

[289] to, she says, I feel obligated to inform Karen Kulgarov that Chloe Kardashian would have been around the right age and the daughter of the right attorney for that fuck you daddy, it's Bobby Shapiro hometown in my favorite murder minisode 148, along with a Chloe Giff where she's going, hashtag fact.

[290] How hilarious is that?

[291] Okay, Kim Kardashian, if she yelled, fuck you daddy, it's Bobby Shapiro, then I, then she's our new Oprah.

[292] Right?

[293] But she's saying it's Chloe.

[294] Oh, Chloe.

[295] Okay.

[296] Because Chloe was the right age.

[297] Great.

[298] She's done the math on this.

[299] Dude.

[300] Emily George went to town on this.

[301] That's brilliant.

[302] I love it.

[303] Thank you.

[304] Thank you for that information.

[305] I would never have put that together.

[306] No, I wouldn't have either.

[307] Yeah.

[308] Maybe it is.

[309] K -Dash, baby.

[310] Do you have anything else?

[311] No, all my, look at all the shit I had written here.

[312] Yeah, you had a lot.

[313] Yeah.

[314] Covered it all.

[315] Covered it all.

[316] Slightly sweating.

[317] I know.

[318] We really powered through that.

[319] We're like feral hogs on cocaine.

[320] It really are.

[321] I mean, they didn't just come upon it like the bear did and like dove in.

[322] They dug that shit up.

[323] Yeah, they were like, I don't know.

[324] It doesn't smell exactly like truffles.

[325] It smells more exciting than that.

[326] Does cocaine smell like anything?

[327] I guess people should know that because they sniff it.

[328] Yeah.

[329] Chemically?

[330] Yeah.

[331] It doesn't smell.

[332] The smart hogs were like, let's have some fun.

[333] It smells like Drano and baby aspirin.

[334] That's what my dealer cuts it with.

[335] Guys, drugs hurt.

[336] They hurt you.

[337] And they hurt others.

[338] And hog.

[339] They hurt feral hogs.

[340] They hurt feral hogs who are just trying to be themselves.

[341] And sweet, sweet cocaine bears who are just trying to live their lives in the forest.

[342] What if those feral hogs tore open those packages with their big crazy fans and started running and they ran into cocaine bears who were coming the other direction?

[343] And they all made friends.

[344] And they had the most intense picnic.

[345] Conversations about.

[346] Intentities.

[347] About beehives.

[348] and fucking being vegan.

[349] Okay.

[350] We've worked it all out as much as we possibly can.

[351] I just want to see a little, I just want to see a little hog, put his little paw in the cocaine and rub it on his teeth and tell his friends, yep, it's cocaine.

[352] And he's got a capri in the other.

[353] A hoof.

[354] One long hoof pinky finger.

[355] Pinky ring.

[356] What is it?

[357] One long hook.

[358] Oh, Jesus.

[359] A pinky nail?

[360] Thank you.

[361] And then everyone dives in.

[362] There's definitely a pinky ring on that.

[363] Hoof pinky.

[364] That's right.

[365] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[366] Absolutely.

[367] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[368] Exactly.

[369] And if you're a small business owner, you might know Shopify is great for online sales.

[370] But did you know that they also power in person sales?

[371] That's right.

[372] Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere, online, in store, on social media, and beyond.

[373] Give your point of sales system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[374] From accepting payments to managing and inventory.

[375] They have everything you need to sell in person.

[376] So give your point of sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[377] Their sleek, reliable POS hardware takes every major payment method and looks fabulous at the same time.

[378] With Shopify, we have a powerful partner for managing our sales.

[379] And if you're a business owner, you can too.

[380] Connect with customers in line and online.

[381] Do retail right with Shopify.

[382] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify .com slash murder.

[383] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

[384] Go to Shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today.

[385] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[386] Goodbye.

[387] I think you're first, right?

[388] Am I?

[389] Yes.

[390] Oh, well.

[391] All right.

[392] I'm going to slow down on this whiskey.

[393] Georgia, Georgia.

[394] She's sleeping.

[395] It's nap time.

[396] I actually brought my tweezers because for the bathroom.

[397] Yes.

[398] Okay.

[399] You guys need to know at the exactly right office is here.

[400] We have this bathroom that has this overhead lighting that is so fucking bright and obnoxiously lit.

[401] And it's like, hey, here's what you really look like.

[402] You hagg.

[403] You think you put makeup on?

[404] Didn't do anything.

[405] It didn't do shit.

[406] So we got a, we got an office tweezer.

[407] Because every time we go in there, all of us go, oh, shit, have so many, like, a black hair sticking out of my chin where it's like, you just sit there going, oh my God, are other people looking at this?

[408] Yeah.

[409] So now we have a, we have a community.

[410] It's probably not super sterile community tweezers we can get some um rubbing alcohol and stick it in there you can just kind of and every time stephen's bad we pluck one mustache hair please don't it hurts that would hurt so bad so I mean I know personally it hurts really fucking bad mine are numb now all my mustache hairs they're like please take us please help you help yourself okay you know what's funny is when I was trying to find a murder for tonight when I was looking up my choices I kept finding British murders I'm like, I'm not doing this one.

[411] Yeah, I'm saving it.

[412] So that's good, getting my homework done.

[413] So I thought I would do, and I wonder if you remember this story because it happened in the early 2000s in Los Angeles, California.

[414] Oh.

[415] And it is very upsetting.

[416] It's the gray widow murderers, Helena Golay and Olga Rudder Schmidt.

[417] Not off the top of my hand.

[418] Okay.

[419] Well, I think you might as I go.

[420] Okay.

[421] So the sources that I used for this, there's a beautiful.

[422] article from Los Angeles magazine and the title of it is what can I tell you by a writer named Paul Brownfield and is this the Katie Perry connection one no no never mind John Benet no okay Wikipedia although in the Wikipedia article they call them the black widow murders which isn't accurate so it's a little bit odd I think they later kind of adjusted that title because it's not a black widow murder right technically there was a couple of Times articles from the time just reporting on what happened.

[423] And then there's a great article written by a writer named Stephen Johnson for a website called 13th floor .tv.

[424] Have you ever gone on there?

[425] It's really good.

[426] And this guy wrote a great and very comprehensive article about these murders, Stephen Johnson, for 13th floor.

[427] TV, the website, not a secure website, just, you know, that came up as a, in the little are they telling you that up at the top?

[428] I guess nothing's secure online anymore.

[429] Nothing secure in life anymore.

[430] Don't kid yourself.

[431] It's all going down the drain.

[432] It's all a lie.

[433] It goes all the way to the bottom.

[434] It goes all the way to hell.

[435] Anyway.

[436] So tell me. Let's start in 2003.

[437] Okay.

[438] Were you working on Melrose Avenue at the time?

[439] I was 23, so no. Oh, okay.

[440] I think I was a lunch lady at that time.

[441] San Francisco?

[442] No, here.

[443] Oh, okay.

[444] Back or hadn't gone yet?

[445] Hadn't gone yet.

[446] Okay.

[447] I just need to keep your personal timeline in my head.

[448] I wish you would.

[449] Thank you.

[450] All the red strings that are going in weird triangles about your life in my head.

[451] It's real boring.

[452] Okay.

[453] So it's 2003 and the Hollywood Presbyterian Church, the one on Gower, which is Gower and almost Franklin.

[454] It's the one that's right by the overpass and the one, the Gower exit.

[455] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[456] And it's red brick.

[457] Oh, yeah.

[458] Yeah.

[459] Yeah, that real big one.

[460] Yeah.

[461] It is doing what it can to reach out to the homeless people of Los Angeles.

[462] Among the needy is a 48 -year -old man named Kenneth McDavid.

[463] So on top of the nightmare of being homeless in Los Angeles, he also suffers with schizophrenia, and he doesn't have any family to turn to.

[464] So he goes to the Big Brick Church on Gower near Franklin, hoping that there will be someone there that will help him.

[465] And there, he meets two older women who are more than generous to him.

[466] 72 -year -old Helen Galae and seven -year -old Olga Rudder Schmidt Seven -year -old?

[467] Did I say seven?

[468] Yeah, I picture a little kid.

[469] 70.

[470] Great.

[471] Seven, zero.

[472] They take it upon themselves to find Kenneth an apartment to pay his rent and his bills and try to help him get back on his feet.

[473] Amazing.

[474] So, of course, this is a godsend for him, and he, I mean, he believes it to be, and why wouldn't he?

[475] Yeah.

[476] Because these two nice old ladies, very charitable.

[477] they found him a safe place to live and all he has to do is sign a little paperwork.

[478] Oh dear.

[479] So two years later on June 21st, 2005, around midnight, Kenneth McDavid's body is found in the alley behind the Bristol Farms grocery store in Westwood.

[480] Now, if you've never been to Los Angeles, I don't think Bristol Farms are national.

[481] Bristol Farms are the fanciest fucking grocery stores.

[482] When I first moved to L .A., I wouldn't go inside.

[483] No, I go inside once in a while and I'm like in the neighborhood of one.

[484] and I feel like they want to kick me out.

[485] Yes, I always felt like in the 90s when I would go there, I felt like they thought I was shoplifting.

[486] Totally.

[487] I think because I was thinking of shoplifting the whole time.

[488] Because it's like these $18 bottles of olives and shit.

[489] Everything has truffles in it.

[490] Everything is like, oh, you're the truffle candy.

[491] Truffle sugar.

[492] It's all truffles and it's all insanely expensive.

[493] It is hoity.

[494] Fucking tooty.

[495] Hoity -toity, like crazy.

[496] And only in the way that Los Angeles can be where it's that, But it's very conspicuous consumption bullshit.

[497] Totally.

[498] Don't vulvor it.

[499] But they have nice brown muffins.

[500] Well, and also it's like, and if you do have the money, you can go in there and be like, yeah, I'll buy a $37 brand muffin.

[501] Check it out.

[502] I don't care about money.

[503] I just want to shit.

[504] I just want that fiber in my system.

[505] I just want to be regular.

[506] And I'll pay any price.

[507] Okay, let's get back to the horrible.

[508] Can we?

[509] Okay, so this, it's also the irony.

[510] And it's so Los Angeles.

[511] that this homeless man who's murdered is his body is behind this grocery store that is literally only for rich people.

[512] And it's in a high -end neighborhood.

[513] Yeah, Westwood is very fancy.

[514] If you went to UCLA, you know that.

[515] Your fucking cookie store.

[516] Anyway, when the authorities get there, they find that Kenneth McDavid's body, there's pooled blood around his head due to lacerations on his scalp.

[517] He has three broken ribs, a fractured pelvis, and lacerations on his body.

[518] spinal cord.

[519] Oh my God.

[520] The coroner later describes these as crush injuries.

[521] And according to the toxicology report, Kenneth has a high dosage of prescription sedatives in his system.

[522] So authorities find an ID card in his pocket that points them toward a Hollywood apartment building.

[523] They contact the landlord.

[524] That person says McDavid has been staying there for a few years, but recently moved out.

[525] And the landlord is able to provide police with the name of the woman who's been helping McDavid pay the rent and who signed his lease for him a woman named Helen Golay so they contact Helen to notify her about McDavid's death she says that she's his cousin she comes to the morgue to identify the body and then she pays to have him cremated so investigators track down they're eventually able to track down surveillance video from the hit and run so they think it's a car accident well basically with the crush injuries they were consistent with somebody being hit or run over by a car.

[526] So they find surveillance video that shows a silver 1999 mercury sable sedan hitting McDavid and leaving him for dead.

[527] But nothing else on the car is identifiable, no plates or whatever.

[528] So it's the only lead and it goes cold until the mighty insurance investigator comes calling.

[529] Oh, shit.

[530] Yeah.

[531] A few months after Kenneth McDavid's body was found, an insurance investigator.

[532] An investigator named Ed Webster shows up to collect the incident report about the accident from the LAPD.

[533] He's been trying to get in touch with the beneficiaries of the $500 ,000 life insurance policy that had been taken out on Kenneth McDavid with his company Mutual of New York.

[534] They had filed a claim, but Webster had been unable to track them down.

[535] So essentially, they filed the claim to get the money, and then he reached out and said, yeah, I'd like to meet you guys so we can talk about this.

[536] and they never called him back.

[537] So that immediately sent his senses tingling.

[538] So as he starts looking into this strange case, he discovers another $500 ,000 life insurance policy, also on Kenneth McDavid's name.

[539] The beneficiaries on that policy, also Helen Galeigh and Olga Rudder Schmidt.

[540] So Helen told authorities that she was Kenneth McDavid's cousin, but the life insurance policies state that she, and Olga are investment partners who are funding Kenneth McDavid's screenwriting career.

[541] That's just not a relationship that happens in this town.

[542] Right.

[543] Nobody funds screenwriting careers.

[544] Right.

[545] And also...

[546] Unless you're a successful screenwriter.

[547] Right.

[548] Then it's like, hey, we're Paramount.

[549] We'd love to fund your screenwriting career.

[550] Yeah.

[551] Insurance inspector, Webster, smells a rat.

[552] So he goes to the LAPD robbery homicide division for help, and he talks to a detective Dennis Kilkoin.

[553] So, Kilcoyne isn't immediately convinced that these two little old ladies are capable of this level of crime.

[554] He's got lots of other robbery homicide shit to worry about.

[555] And he's kind of like, yeah, okay.

[556] Until as everyone's talking about, oh, the two little old ladies that people think or whatever.

[557] And then a colleague reminds Kilkoin of another hit and run case from 1999 in which a 73 -year -old homeless man named Paul Vedos had been the victim.

[558] And when they look into that, they find that Vedos also had insurance policies taken out in his name, and the beneficiaries are Helen and Olga.

[559] What the fuck?

[560] So they now have picked up a rock where...

[561] Thank God someone remembered that.

[562] Yes.

[563] Well, that's kind of the beauty of like these people, it had happened, what, four, five years before.

[564] Yeah.

[565] But they carry that around.

[566] It's like a 73 -year -old man in this hit and run, like, you know, but they're kind of like, oh, wait a second.

[567] Yeah.

[568] Yeah, and sharing information at least.

[569] Yes, and talking about it.

[570] Yeah.

[571] Okay, so now the authorities get serious about this case, and they call in the big guns.

[572] The FBI, the U .S. Attorney's Office, and the baddest of the mall, the California Department of Insurance.

[573] Don't fucking mess.

[574] They...

[575] That's their motto.

[576] Don't fucking mess.

[577] They're cold -blooded.

[578] They don't even need to finish the sentence.

[579] Okay.

[580] So they all begin to investigate these seemingly sweet old ladies.

[581] So let's talk about Helen Gowley and Olga Rutter Schmidt.

[582] They meet in the 80s because they're two health -conscious, middle -aged women in Los Angeles.

[583] Yeah, girl.

[584] And they meet at a West Los Angeles health spa, and they find out that they have a lot in common.

[585] So Olga, she grew up in war -torn hungry in the 40s, suffered injuries from a World War II bomb raid where they said.

[586] an entire building collapsed on to her and basically barely escaped World War II hungry.

[587] And Helen had suddenly and tragically lost her father in a car crash at a young age.

[588] So the two women bond over their childhood trauma and they become fast friends.

[589] So as the years pass, both Helen and Olga suffer failed marriages.

[590] They have problems with their kids and they have intense financial instability.

[591] They have friends who have very distinct memories.

[592] of the two women complaining about needing big money fast.

[593] And so as their desperation peaks, the two women decide to start committing petty crimes together.

[594] So the story is that Helen Olga would sneak into the Beverly Hills Hotel or the Roosevelt in Hollywood.

[595] Fancy as fuck.

[596] Right?

[597] They pretend to be registered guests.

[598] They go into the locker room.

[599] They change into their pool stuff.

[600] Now they're both physically fit.

[601] It's very L .A. They're both these blondes.

[602] How come I can't do that?

[603] I'm too scared to do that.

[604] Yeah, it's just, it's, you're not a sociopath.

[605] Oh, right.

[606] Yeah.

[607] So, Helen has this big blonde buffon and she's like, she's leggy and she's, you know, used to being a hot lady from the past.

[608] And Olga has like a Zhaja Gabor thing going on.

[609] So nobody thinks twice about these two seemingly rich middle age ladies.

[610] Right.

[611] Because when you're a middle aged friend, you can become completely invisible.

[612] It's kind of exciting, actually.

[613] No one fucking gives a shit Oh, God.

[614] So what they do is they change into their pool clothes and they go hang out and then they steal purses and credit cards out of people's lockers.

[615] Wow.

[616] And no one suspects them because of old white lady privilege.

[617] So essentially it's like, oh, it could never be these two.

[618] Right.

[619] They have so much shitty lipstick on.

[620] Yeah.

[621] Or whatever.

[622] She's almost exactly like Zajajajabor.

[623] She could never be stealing my fucking credit card.

[624] Right.

[625] Okay.

[626] They do that so much and so often.

[627] and they never get caught.

[628] They never even get suspected.

[629] So, of course, those petty crimes going on prosecuted, emboldens the old gals to escalate to credit card fraud, then insurance fraud, suing small businesses, faking, or exaggerating injuries.

[630] Fuck, what dicks.

[631] Yes.

[632] So they start realizing how they can make money, which is basically by ripping people off in all different ways.

[633] Oh, man. Just like these small businesses I think about who are like suddenly have the stress of a fraudulent claim.

[634] that they have to deal with her just trying to fucking make ends meet where it's like you've seen it in a bunch of movies or whatever where it's like I'm sure one of them went in you like have a little vial of you know 18 dollar olive oil or whatever you throw it on the ground you got to slip and fall now it's a lawsuit you own that dry cleaners or whatever right that's the story and these guys worked that system so with all these cases Olga finds herself a fellow Hungarian immigrant lawyer named George Brownfield and he handles all of her cases she turns to him for personal injury claims from auto accidents and slip and falls that's one of my favorite petty crimes is a fake slip and fall slip and fall where people fake slipping and falling and then like I'm gonna sue you oh it's the worst all of these cases that she brings to him seems sketchy and embellished but george is known for his loyalty to fellow Hungarian immigrants in the LA area so he continues to represent Olga and this is the lawyer who Paul Brownfield wrote the article about it's his father.

[635] And the article is beautiful.

[636] It's all about how he kind of didn't know his father.

[637] And after his father died, he had to go in and he found all these cases, case files and went through all of this stuff to figure out why he would continue to represent this criminal.

[638] I'm telling you this is some family secret podcast shit right here.

[639] It's totally family secrets.

[640] So that's Olga story.

[641] Now, Helen Goulet, she's a bit of a mystery lady.

[642] but from the L .A. Times article, her hairdresser, who wouldn't give her name because she was afraid for her personal safety.

[643] But she told the L .A. Times that Helen once explained to her, quote, how a woman could score a windfall by marrying an older man, ensuring his life, and then secretly feeding him daily doses of Viagra until it triggered a fatal heart attack.

[644] Oh, God.

[645] What a way to go.

[646] You're just trying to cut some bangs into some old lady's hair.

[647] And then you're like, sorry, what's this?

[648] I didn't ask you for advice.

[649] I'm, ma 'am.

[650] And then, and listen, this is what she says.

[651] The hairdresser, who asked on to be named, oh, I said that already.

[652] The hairdresser quotes Goli as saying, I am evil.

[653] You have no idea how evil I am.

[654] Anyway, bye, have a good one.

[655] Anyway, so three weeks from now, we'll just touch up these roots.

[656] I tipped you 10%.

[657] See you later.

[658] I'm evil, so I tipped you 10%.

[659] Bye.

[660] my god yeah that's oh i want to meet that that uh hairdresser how unnerving yeah to come upon these people in real life and have them be like well you are my hairdresser i guess i'll tell you my dirtiest secret and she's just like can you stop talking please please go somewhere else there's a super cuts down the street okay so um usually the cases that olga would bring to george brownfield were small and petty until she arrives at his office one day in early 2000 to tell him that her quote cousin paul vedos had been run over and killed in an alleyway she explains to her lawyer that she and helen had been taking care of paul who she claims was a quote retired electrical technician who was barely getting by on his social security olga explains that out of gratitude for their help paul agreed to make she and helen the beneficiaries oh it would be her and helen uh paul agrees to make her and helen the beneficiaries on his life insurance policy but now that he's dead the insurance company refuses to give them their payout because Paul's death is a potential homicide and the authorities couldn't rule out Olga and Helen as potential suspects yet.

[661] So George takes the case and fights the insurance company because he's Olga's lawyer.

[662] He says that they can't withhold payment unless they can prove Helen and Olga are actually under investigation for the death of Vados.

[663] And since there's no proof that they're involved, involved, George wins the case, and Olga and Helen are awarded their payout.

[664] Holy shit.

[665] Their success with this scam emboldens them both to move on to help out another homeless person in need, Kenneth McDavid.

[666] Run!

[667] Which is where we started.

[668] Oh, my God.

[669] But as all of that proof is piling up, investigators are now hot on the old gal's trails, so they start tailing them and watching them in action.

[670] Yeah.

[671] So, the ladies would frequent that first Presbyterian church on Gower, troll for victims, and usually they would look for alcoholics or people with mental illness.

[672] Easy targets for them.

[673] Right.

[674] Then they'd offer them food and shelter with no strings attached.

[675] And after some time passed and they'd secure the man's trust, they would tell their new charge that they're going to help, they're going to the bank to help him open his own bank account.

[676] This is basically getting him back on his feet.

[677] And they would make sure to take them to Bank of America because at the time, it offered a free $1 ,000 life insurance policy once a checking account was open, somehow in connection.

[678] So they would sign their, basically their target.

[679] They would sign him up for that.

[680] Oh, then it would automatically.

[681] And then they would send notifications to increase the amount.

[682] And so by tens of thousands of dollars, it would start out of.

[683] as a $1 ,000 life insurance policy.

[684] But they'd already signed it so they could just keep increasing.

[685] They could keep increasing and they were in charge.

[686] And once they had that policy, they could take out several more policies on the same man with companies that did their business either online or through the mail only.

[687] They didn't have to meet anybody in person.

[688] They would just sign him up and then show that he had already had, they already had all his information.

[689] Well, I think these policies should be changed.

[690] It seems like it's too easy to do that to somebody.

[691] Yeah.

[692] And I bet they have been since that time I would hope.

[693] Got to hope.

[694] So basically Helen and Olga learned how to game the insurance system pretty severely.

[695] They were cunning and calculating and they're cold -blooded killers.

[696] So as they're tailing the women, authorities are horrified to discover that Helen and Olga's names have popped up again as beneficiaries on a life insurance policy for a homeless man named Jimmy Covington.

[697] Okay.

[698] So Olga and Helen meet Jimmy and offer to put him up in a Hollywood office building at no cost.

[699] But Jimmy Covington is smart.

[700] They picked the wrong guy when they pick Jimmy Covington.

[701] Cool.

[702] Because he already thinks it's weird that they're these nice old ladies and they're just doing all this stuff for free.

[703] Yeah.

[704] But that they keep insisting he fill out this paperwork and provide them with his personal information.

[705] So they keep coming back and trying to get him to fill out these forms.

[706] and he just isn't doing it.

[707] So one time they just snap and they get really angry and yell at him.

[708] And that's when he knows that he's sure he was right and that something isn't cool about this.

[709] So the next time the grannies go back to check on him and get that paperwork, Jimmy Covington is nowhere to be found.

[710] Get the fuck out of there.

[711] He was like, yeah, I'm not buying any of this anymore.

[712] Later days, ladies.

[713] But by this time, the police have now amassed enough proof of the two women's 20, year escalating crime spree and they have enough evidence to charge both Helen Golay and Olga Rudder Schmidt with felony mail fraud and suspicion of murder.

[714] As they were tailing Olga, they just watched her steal her neighbor's mail.

[715] No. Yeah.

[716] That's a federal offense, Olga.

[717] You can't sure.

[718] No one's tailing you first.

[719] Okay, so on 18th, 2006, two separate teams of police officers arrive at both Helen Golay's residence on the west side and Olga Rutterschmidt's residence in Hollywood and arrest them simultaneously.

[720] And Detective Dennis Kilcoyne in one of those articles talked about how they wanted to go in, they went in with all these cops, they wanted to like shock and awe dazzle both of these old ladies so that when they brought them in, like they knew it was a big deal.

[721] Everyone saw, the neighbors saw everybody.

[722] So when they came into the same jailhouse, where they were getting booked, they would know that they both, that they were super busted, and it was time to start singing, and they knew it would only be a matter of time before they each flipped on each other.

[723] Totally.

[724] Which is kind of a genius plan.

[725] So there's lots of pictures of them getting arrested that you can look at on the internet.

[726] Okay.

[727] Yeah, I love it.

[728] So once the police are inside Helen's home, they find a mixture of ground -up prescription pills.

[729] They say enough to put an elephant to sleep.

[730] She just has it fucking sitting around in her apartment.

[731] Oh, my God, like a mortar and pestle just like, do, do, do.

[732] And she's also handcrafting specialty cocktails as well.

[733] Okay, so they also find organized files of all the life insurance policies that she and Olga had taken out on their victim.

[734] Okay, so she's killing people and can be that organized and we're fucking can't.

[735] I know, you know.

[736] Yes.

[737] Well, also, it's like, why would you keep all that stuff right there in your apartment?

[738] Like, how about you go out and get like one of those?

[739] storage lockers Thank you storage wore that shit they also find documents from three other men that Goli and Rutter Schmidt had tried to insure for around $800 ,000 but those applications had been denied and the police say that there was no reason for them to believe that those three men were in danger anymore but basically that they had kind of gotten processed and denied yes holy shit so though Goli and Rutter Schmidt worked as a team there was evidence that each was not always aware.

[740] Oh, sorry, this is from Paul Brownfield's LA magazine article.

[741] It's a quote, though Golay and Ruder Schmidt worked as a team, there was evidence that each was not always aware of the other's activity.

[742] Of the 13 policies on McDavid, for example, that's Kenneth McDavid, the murder we started with.

[743] Gole was the sole beneficiary on eight.

[744] So she had taken Helen off of eight of them.

[745] You can't trust a murdering liar, I guess.

[746] Yeah, no honor.

[747] Sometimes they tried to remove each other as co -beneficiaries.

[748] Regardless, insurers sold policy after policy and paid up as often as not, end quote.

[749] So between the two women, Helen and Olga, had gotten themselves paid with these scams nearly $2 .8 million.

[750] Holy shit.

[751] Imagine how much they'd make if all of them went through.

[752] Right.

[753] These bitches are dirty birds.

[754] Yep.

[755] Okay.

[756] So authorities also discover when they, they're going through these apartments that the Mercury Sable that was used to kill Kenneth McDavid is registered to a Hillary Adler who goes to the same gym as Helen's youngest daughter, Keisha Haleigh.

[757] Hillary Adler, however, didn't buy the car.

[758] Years before, her purse had been stolen from the locker room at that gym.

[759] Later, Helen had used Hillary's ID to buy the car, telling the dealer it was a gift for Hillary.

[760] So basically, they find that Mercury Sable.

[761] And they find proof that on the night of Kenneth McDavid's death, Helen Gowley had called AAA to have a broken down Mercury Sable toad.

[762] No, the car broke down.

[763] Yes.

[764] After she killed someone with it?

[765] After they killed someone with it, they had to have it towed.

[766] And AAA has it on record.

[767] Yeah.

[768] When the police possessed the car and they test the undercarriage, they find Kenneth McDavid's DNA on it.

[769] Wow.

[770] And so this, they have everything they need to now charge these women.

[771] So the trial begins on March 18th, 2008.

[772] They both plead not guilty.

[773] Neither one testifies.

[774] You know they're lunatics.

[775] Over the course of the three -week trial, each woman's lawyer tries to pin the entire scheme on the other woman.

[776] It must have been, this is really horrible and tragic, and it's shocking how cold -blooded these murders are.

[777] but to sit in that courtroom and see this would be a circus.

[778] This would be like high, high level courtroom viewing, I think.

[779] I wonder if this was on court TV.

[780] God, I don't know with this at all.

[781] Okay, so Helen's defense attorney argues that her daughter Keisha had conspired with Olga referring to records of phone calls between Olga and Keisha to support this argument.

[782] Olga's attorney, however, argues that Helen dazzled Olga with her lavish lifestyle and manipulated her into going along with the insurance fraud plan.

[783] He claims Olga didn't know that the schemes would involve murder.

[784] But then Jimmy Covington takes the stand.

[785] Oh shit.

[786] Yes.

[787] Our friend who got out and was like, fuck these two old ladies.

[788] He busts in and blows the doors of both of those defenses.

[789] He is their only living murder for insurance scam victim and he sets the record straight.

[790] And because of that, three weeks after the start of the trial in April of 2008, Helen Goulet and Olga Rudershmit are both found guilty of insurance fraud and of the murders of Paul Vados and Kenneth McDavid and they're each sentenced to life in prison where they remain to this day.

[791] And that is the truly disgusting story of the Grey Widow murderers, Olga Rudder Schmidt and Helen Goli.

[792] Wow.

[793] I have never heard of that.

[794] You haven't?

[795] No. So wait, let me show you this.

[796] These are the ladies.

[797] Show me. Oh, my.

[798] That's Helen and that's Oh, my God.

[799] And then who does Helen remind you of?

[800] I don't know who.

[801] The woman who killed Sylvia.

[802] You're right.

[803] Isn't that crazy?

[804] They look exactly.

[805] Dorothea.

[806] Dorothy.

[807] She has that crazy long.

[808] Steven, sorry.

[809] Gertrude Banezzeus Benazzyffsky.

[810] Yeah.

[811] Yeah.

[812] Because it's Chuckles lock in.

[813] Isn't that weird?

[814] She completely looks like that lady.

[815] They look exactly the same.

[816] For a second when I was researching this, I was like, that's the lady that's the lady that tortured Sylvia Likens but it's just that same weird upsetting awful face so do you think they were in the car together when they hit him yes that's so awful I hate that you know I hate taking advantage when people take advantage of people who are the easiest targets mentally ill homeless you know yeah it's just like and I hate the people would have the fucking balls to attend church yeah as if they're there to help too totally when actually they're doing the exact polar opposite of helping anybody there it's so calculating it's so mercenary and it's totally disgusting that is a fucked up story isn't that awful god good job thank you never even seen it in my my deep dives into stories it's when this one came out because it was like no one they were like on the news would be like two old women like no one can believe old ladies but then these pictures come up and you're like i fucking believe it that's the lady that would like pinch you when no adult was looking and be like, little girl.

[817] These are both little girl women.

[818] Oh, my God.

[819] Yeah.

[820] That's fucked up.

[821] Horrifying.

[822] All right.

[823] Okay, so if you'll humor me. Sorry, did you hear that?

[824] Yeah, it was loud.

[825] I'm so sorry.

[826] That was a, I'm so excited that like fall is turning into winter here and I had to pull out my old thermal long sleeve shirt.

[827] You're double cup in that mug in a really cozy way.

[828] I really, like kind of a lipped in teeth, looking out the window, staring out the window.

[829] You did.

[830] If only we had a fire.

[831] Oh, if only we started this building on fire.

[832] And then ran, podcasting.

[833] That would be our podcast.

[834] Okay.

[835] All right.

[836] If you'll humor me, I'm going to start this in a different way.

[837] Okay.

[838] Having an intro and then telling you what it is.

[839] Interesting.

[840] I know.

[841] I'm hooked.

[842] We're 196 episodes in and I'm going to change it up a little.

[843] Yes, this is the time.

[844] That's right.

[845] You have four more episodes to figure out what your permanent style is going to be.

[846] I just want to keep a relationship interesting and fun.

[847] Thank you.

[848] Keep you on your toes.

[849] That's why we're going on vacation together soon.

[850] We really are.

[851] After London, me Karen and Vince are going on a little, we're calling it a retreat.

[852] Yeah, it's a company retreat and only we get to go to.

[853] Because we're already there.

[854] Right.

[855] No offense, Stephen.

[856] Stephen, we'll think of you.

[857] Let me start.

[858] Okay.

[859] Karen, let me tell you about Speedway, Indiana.

[860] Speedway Indiana.

[861] It's a middle class enclave of Indianapolis, which we were just in, and it's a fucking rad place.

[862] We love doing shows in that place.

[863] It was great.

[864] All I think of is the crowds that it just went on forever, and everyone was great.

[865] Everyone's nice.

[866] So Speedway, Indiana is a town, and it's home of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

[867] Sure.

[868] It hosts a Formula Racing's annual Indianapolis 500 every Memorial Day weekend.

[869] Why just say that?

[870] Like, you've never heard of the...

[871] The Indianapolis 500.

[872] Those words have never come out of my mouth in my fucking life.

[873] Truly, that's the first time I've ever said Indianapolis 500.

[874] You're not a crazy NASCAR head?

[875] That's weird.

[876] There were zero sports in my house.

[877] I had a single mom.

[878] Oh, yeah, that would make sense.

[879] We just didn't have sports.

[880] We didn't have Indy 500 style.

[881] Car racing was a different realm.

[882] Sure, but you know about it.

[883] But I do know about it.

[884] I've seen other people like it.

[885] Also, what I hear is when you go there and watch it, firsthand pieces of tires fly up into your face like it's intense car experience I just keep thinking about if they all have fancy crazy hats on but that's the I was going to say the home run derby that's the what do you call it derby yeah the derby Stephen any idea derby oh I just want to say my mom was a huge NASCAR fan and she was on a documentary about I think Jack Johnson not the singer the Jimmy Johnson Jimmy Johnson yeah she was a huge fan she was in a document, like a fan documentary about him.

[886] Oh, and it's her birthday when this episode comes out.

[887] Oh, my God, my birthday, Mrs. Ray Morris.

[888] So she's the one exception to the NASCAR rule.

[889] You've said the words Indianapolis 500 before then.

[890] Okay, here we are in Speedway, Indiana.

[891] During the post -war years, and into the 1970s, Speedway became a suburban utopia of Indianapolis.

[892] Low crime, good schools, none of those big problems with the big cities.

[893] Yeah, you know.

[894] And by 1970, more than 15 ,000 people lived there.

[895] So it's small, but it's a suburbia.

[896] Okay.

[897] Though normally a safe place to live, the year, 1978, brought some crazy fucking shit to this relatively small suburb.

[898] I believe it.

[899] 1978, man. People are still hitchhiking, a lot of brown cords.

[900] That's right.

[901] Okay.

[902] Set the scene.

[903] Well, so first on July 29th, 1978, a local, like, total church -going grandma named Julius Seifers was shot to death in her own garage in the middle of the afternoon when a stranger showed up at her front door.

[904] Her husband answers the door.

[905] The man is like, hey, you had had a recent rummage sale.

[906] I wanted to see some of these like higher end items that you were selling.

[907] No, that's not how rummage sales work.

[908] No. And the guy was like, okay.

[909] Come back later.

[910] Right.

[911] So he's like, let me get my wife.

[912] He grabs Julia and she brings him to the garage to check out them antiques.

[913] Oh.

[914] And he takes out a gun and shoots her, killing her, and then drives off without taking anything.

[915] What?

[916] So it's like a hit?

[917] Yeah.

[918] Okay.

[919] Oh, okay.

[920] You're like, oh, okay.

[921] You'll talk about it again.

[922] Oh, I don't have to guess until I get it right.

[923] You're going to tell me a whole story.

[924] This podcast is called My Favorite Murder.

[925] My Favorite Guessing About Things.

[926] Then, starting a month later, a month after this on September 1, 1978, and lasting until the six.

[927] So it's just a few days.

[928] A series of six seemingly random bombs go off in public places around the town of Speedway.

[929] What the fuck?

[930] Yeah, small town and all these fucking bombs are exploding.

[931] The first five explosions didn't hurt anyone.

[932] It's almost like they purposely didn't.

[933] They were put in places where, like, parking lots and where people wouldn't be around.

[934] But then the final bomb, an explosive device concealed in a Speedway High School gym bag, detonated in a parking lot of Speedway High School.

[935] shortly after a freshman football game.

[936] Uh -oh.

[937] Yeah.

[938] So, like, all these people are going to see this football game.

[939] It exploded there.

[940] And Vietnam War veteran Carl DeLong is struck by the bomb, which severs his right leg and severely injured his left leg and right hand and severed an artery in his wife, Sandra's leg.

[941] So this elderly couple is hit.

[942] Carl's leg had to be amputated.

[943] I fucking look at this up on the My Favorite Murder Gmail, and this woman named Miranda emails us.

[944] Oh, God.

[945] This badass woman, she says, in September 1978, there was a series of bombings in Speedway, Indiana, the last of which took place at my dad's high school parking lot and blew my grandpa's right leg off and severely injured my grandma.

[946] My grandpa was a Vietnam veteran and killed himself in 1983 after becoming depressed due to the loss of his leg and chronic pain.

[947] And she says, my grandma is a fucking badass, by the way, just so everyone knows.

[948] I bet she is.

[949] At this point, so at this point in the 56 -year history of Speedway, only two homicides had been reported and just half a dozen robberies a year had been recorded.

[950] So it's a safe place.

[951] I was sorry, but I was just going to go back really quick.

[952] Sylvia is the name of the woman who got shot in her garage.

[953] Julia Seifers.

[954] Julia Seifers.

[955] I was just going to go back really quick and say this about Julia who got shot in her garage.

[956] And now that you say that there is only, did you say two homicides a year?

[957] Oh, no, wait, sorry.

[958] two homicides that have ever been recorded in the history okay so when people the neighbors and the town found out right what happened to julia right that must have been the scariest as i mean like a woman shot in her own garage right that neighbors friends people i'm sure knew her like what a bewildering frightening thing and you have no mode there's no this woman had no known enemies there's no reason to for this to happen to woman.

[959] For some reason the daytime element also.

[960] Absolutely.

[961] The world's gone insane.

[962] And it's targeted.

[963] And then suddenly a month later, these explosions start happening around town.

[964] I just want to, I don't know why I just felt like we didn't sit on that long enough where I'm like, oh, the growing feeling of Julia being murdered for no reason and no one knowing how to explain it.

[965] So no one's getting any relief.

[966] There's no arrest.

[967] That's just a growing thing.

[968] And then bombs start going on.

[969] The worry over these two seemingly unrelated events, which we'll get back to you later.

[970] Yeah.

[971] The murder of Julia and the bombings was about to be quadrupled by an event that shook the community and still fucks people up to this day.

[972] What?

[973] This is the story of the Burger Chef murders.

[974] Are you?

[975] Ew.

[976] I just got the weirdest chill.

[977] Are you, because what the fuck?

[978] 1978.

[979] Oh, Mike.

[980] All this happened.

[981] Okay.

[982] Please tell me. And actually, I fucking want your opinion on this because it's, I'm sorry to, spoiler alert, it's unsolved.

[983] No, I knew that.

[984] Yeah.

[985] So I need your opinion on this.

[986] Okay.

[987] I got so much information from Indianapolis Monthly, Indy Star, Medium.

[988] There's a podcast that their whole first season is about this.

[989] It's called Circle City Crime Podcast or 3C podcast, and they just cover, like, the theories and the, you know, evidence and all this about this podcast.

[990] Wow.

[991] About this crime.

[992] About this crime.

[993] The Already Gone podcast, there's an episode about, it.

[994] And then I read a book.

[995] I bought on it.

[996] I bought a book and read it over the weekend called the Burger Chef Murders by Julie Young.

[997] Wow.

[998] Okay.

[999] Awesome.

[1000] Highlighter in fucking hand.

[1001] So you're really doing it now.

[1002] So are you saying that's what we have to do now is like really do research?

[1003] There's certain.

[1004] So this is like this is a case that hits all my buttons, you know, like the yogurt shop murders.

[1005] There's something about fast food murders or like, you know, store murders that really just like get my blood boiling and get my blood boiling and get my brainworking and when they're unsolved, I just fucking can't handle it.

[1006] And I'm like, the answer's there, we have to find it.

[1007] And so I want to know everything about it.

[1008] Yeah, it makes sense.

[1009] Yeah.

[1010] So, um, let's get into it.

[1011] Okay.

[1012] On the night of Friday, November 17th, 1978, uh, employees of the local burger chef fast food restaurant, do you know that?

[1013] Did you, you didn't have them?

[1014] No. So it's basically like Carl's Jr. Oh, okay.

[1015] So, and they were eventually bought by Hardee's and Vince knew about it.

[1016] It's like a Midwestern kind of chain that everyone knew.

[1017] for her chef okay yeah so it's in speedway indiana they're closing up the shop for the night assistant manager jane freet who's 20 um she had recently transferred from the plainfield burger chef uh it ruth ellen shelton who's 18 daniel davis is 16 and mark flemins who's also 16 so there's a bunch of fucking kids closing up the shop also i think is part of it right if someone's taking advantage of the youth element in most um fast food and retail situation where it usually is a couple of 17 -year -olds pretending that they're holding it down when actually that's like the most exploitable, like they're trapped as a victim.

[1018] But it also makes it so much more scary that it wasn't someone alone closing up.

[1019] It was four fucking people.

[1020] Yeah, okay.

[1021] All right.

[1022] So they're closing up in the evening a little later after midnight.

[1023] Another employee drives by the burger chef and he notices all the lights are on.

[1024] And he's like, that's fucking weird.

[1025] It should be closed and dark by this point.

[1026] So he stops by to check it out only to find the backdoor open and all four employees gone.

[1027] Oh.

[1028] He notices that the both female employees' purses are still there and there's two coats left behind, which is strange.

[1029] It's the middle of fucking November.

[1030] It's like 30 or 40 degrees.

[1031] You don't leave your coat behind.

[1032] He immediately calls the police and when they arrive on the scene, they find over $580 in cash missing, which doesn't sound like a lot.

[1033] And today's money, it's $2 ,200, about $2 ,200.

[1034] Yeah.

[1035] But a couple hundred more in change are left behind.

[1036] And Jane Freit, the assistant manager, her car is missing from the parking lot.

[1037] The cash register tills are like thrown on the ground.

[1038] The manager's office is kind of a mess.

[1039] It's where the safe is.

[1040] And it shows signs of a struggle.

[1041] And there's an empty roll of duct tape nearby.

[1042] So, but instead of thinking it looks suspicious like the teenager did who called the fucking cock.

[1043] and treating it like a crime scene, the local law enforcement assumes that the missing workers stole the money and later day to go out partying for the night, left the back door open, left their purses and jackets behind, left it a mess.

[1044] And it's these four fucking responsible kids who have jobs and are all in like, I don't know, 4H or whatever the fuck.

[1045] Right.

[1046] If you're a teenager that has a job that's as hard as fast food, you are not messing around like that.

[1047] No, absolutely not.

[1048] You don't, you're not that kid.

[1049] That's the rich asshole.

[1050] that have no idea what, how these things impact people.

[1051] Exactly.

[1052] It's a different style of person.

[1053] And then you look at clues like purses and jackets leaning left behind and you know something is not right.

[1054] Now, but this just, it's pops, this pops into my head because we've heard so many of these stories.

[1055] But there was this time where whoever showed up first got to theorize and if it was the kind of person who was like, I don't want to do this that much longer.

[1056] I don't want to get, basically I don't want to get involved.

[1057] And I think maybe sometimes it.

[1058] It's, I don't want to, I want to think this because the alternative is horrifying.

[1059] Right.

[1060] Or, and also, there's only been two homicides in my city in this long.

[1061] I don't know how to fucking work a homicide scene.

[1062] Yeah.

[1063] And if I don't know how, instead of getting someone that does know how I'm being like, I don't know, better to just blame and feel superior and walk away.

[1064] And walk away.

[1065] Which, I don't know if it happens as much anymore.

[1066] I don't think, I feel like there's more oversight.

[1067] Yeah.

[1068] Well, that's exactly what happened.

[1069] So they call the store owner, and the next morning, an opening crew are told to finish the closing duties, clean up, and open the store as usual.

[1070] No. And this is like, in my mind, this is why the case has never been solved.

[1071] Like they - Because they clean up the crime scene.

[1072] They wiped away any fingerprints that could have been there, any DNA or blood samples.

[1073] They wiped down all the countertops.

[1074] no crime scene photos were taken there's nothing and I want to remind you of the Brown's Chicken Massacre which they had bagged and tagged all the trash remember and then nine years after the murders they used a chicken half -eaten chicken leg in the trash as a DNA match to the killers so the shit's important they threw all the trash away couldn't be more important right yeah so the next morning though when the four employees hadn't shown up at their homes they're worried families all knowing their kids weren't all knowing their kids were responsible and reliable they raised the alarm they file missing person's reports and they're like something's fucking going on yeah later that day jane's missing car is discovered parked a short drive from the restaurant and just a couple blocks from the police station oh no i know the car is like vaguely searched and cops find a couple burger chef wrappers They take some cigarette butts.

[1075] The driver's side door is locked, but the passenger door is not.

[1076] What does that mean?

[1077] I don't know.

[1078] But it's becoming clear that the workers had been abducted while closing the restaurant and possibly when someone was throwing trash bags out because there was like one trash bag in the dumpster.

[1079] So while the door was open, maybe that's when someone hit.

[1080] A full -on search is issued for the missing kids.

[1081] And on Sunday, two days after the burger chef employees are reported missing, Some local hikers find a gruesome scene in a rural wooded area in Johnson County, which is the next county over.

[1082] It's about 30 to 40 minutes drive from Speedway.

[1083] In a clearing, the bodies of the four missing workers, this is so sad, all still in their brown and orange burger chef uniforms were found.

[1084] Daniel Davis and Ruth Ellen had both been shot execution style numerous times with a 38 caliber firearm.

[1085] So it was almost like they had them lay down there.

[1086] Then Jane was found a little ways off and had been stabbed twice in the chest so violently that the blade was later recovered from her body, but the handle was never found.

[1087] Oh, my God.

[1088] So to me it seems like Jane and the other employee, Mark, made a run for it.

[1089] Yeah.

[1090] Right?

[1091] So about 75 yards away from the others, Mark Flemmons is found.

[1092] He's also, he's the strongest and most athletic of the group.

[1093] So it's determined that he was bludgeoned with an unknown object, maybe a chain that was never found.

[1094] But he also, this is fucking horrible.

[1095] He also suffered blunt force head injury.

[1096] So coroner speculate that he tried to make an escape, but maybe ran into a tree while he was running away.

[1097] Right.

[1098] And then Fallen choked on his own blood.

[1099] And it's possible that the captors thought he had got away and didn't know until the bodies were found that he had died.

[1100] Oh, God.

[1101] So it sounds like the two of them made her fucking run for it, which is like heartbreaking.

[1102] Right.

[1103] It also sounds like she fought them if she was stabbed at violently.

[1104] Like they were mad at her for doing something.

[1105] And it does seem too that like it's weird to have three different ways of murder.

[1106] Right.

[1107] So maybe it says there's like more than one assailant or even two.

[1108] Right, right.

[1109] So officers from Johnson County where the bodies are found, Marion County, where the burger chef was and the Indiana State Police all arrive on the scene.

[1110] Good.

[1111] No. Oh.

[1112] It's the state police's crime scene since it's inter -jurisdiction.

[1113] And of course, there's a fuck.

[1114] It's 1978.

[1115] There's a power struggle between the department's Johnson County Sheriff Tom Pritchard.

[1116] So he was left out of the loop and he was by the state police and he was pissed about it and he said, quote, if they're going to treat us this way, we're not going to bend over backward to help them.

[1117] You're like, you're not helping them.

[1118] You're helping these fucking murder victims.

[1119] Yeah, it's not.

[1120] If you can't handle the basic politics of this stuff, you probably shouldn't be in that business.

[1121] I mean, it's so frustrating.

[1122] Every time anything is like this, I immediately just think of, I start watching the Zodiac movie in my mind.

[1123] Because it's all that stuff of like, it's all weird, like, pissing contests.

[1124] Totally.

[1125] It's infuriating.

[1126] Especially for a cold fucking case.

[1127] that, like, is just mishandled.

[1128] Yeah.

[1129] So either way, some of the first officers at the scene claim that the state police move the bodies before the forensic team or the coroner arrived.

[1130] I don't know if that's true.

[1131] I just read it in a lot of places.

[1132] Yeah, why would they do that?

[1133] I don't know.

[1134] And since no one roped off the crime scene, there are footsteps everywhere from the three different departments trampling into potential forensic evidence.

[1135] Just a different time, too.

[1136] Totally.

[1137] After the news of the discovery, the burger chef puts up a 25 ,000, dollar reward for any information on the case and they help the families with funeral costs the town of speedway is of course now fucking in a goddamn panic i bet i mean that's it's too much that's like too much it's that's three massive tragedies right you move away from the city to get away from like the crime and this is and your town is just fucking besieged with it yeah is that word yes it is okay great the same day the burger chef murder oh okay this is fucking up.

[1138] They're found on Sunday.

[1139] That's the next day the murders are in the paper.

[1140] It's the exact same day.

[1141] It shares a headline with the news of the bodies being found of the mass suicides in Guyana at the Jonestown compound.

[1142] Reverend Jim Jones, he's an Indiana native, had originally formed his People's Temple cult in Indianapolis.

[1143] So this not true?

[1144] Yeah.

[1145] So like this fucking little area is losing its fucking mind.

[1146] That's, and also that news itself eclipsed.

[1147] Eclipses everything that happened for months after that.

[1148] Right.

[1149] So maybe this could have been a national news story and could have gotten more leads, but instead.

[1150] Yeah, and everyone's focused on this massive, insane huge tragedy.

[1151] Understandably, but still, it could have, if it had the airtime, something could have been made of it.

[1152] Oh, God, this is awful.

[1153] I know.

[1154] Sorry.

[1155] No. Okay.

[1156] I want to take this on.

[1157] Okay, you sure?

[1158] Yeah.

[1159] Okay, thank you, because I can stop.

[1160] No, you can't.

[1161] If we could have stopped, we would have done it by now, but we can't.

[1162] We would have done it 195 episodes ago.

[1163] The leading theory in the Burger Chef murders is that the employees were kidnapped following a botched robbery when one of the killers entered the burger chef while one of the employees were taking out the trash, maybe one of the abductors was recognized.

[1164] by one of the employees, and they were like, we now have to kill you all.

[1165] But it's still puzzles investigators that the employees weren't killed at the burger chef because there's so many of these stories from back then where they're found in the cooler or in the manager's office by the safe all killed.

[1166] Right.

[1167] But it's such a huge risk to take them to another location 30 to 40 minutes away.

[1168] And four people.

[1169] Four people who are still alive.

[1170] And they take one of the cars and maybe there's like a car waiting that that's where they take them to, whatever.

[1171] It's just, it's really fucking weird and there's no like explanation.

[1172] Yeah.

[1173] So after the bodies are discovered, a 16 -year -old eyewitness comes forward and he says that the night of the murders, he and his girlfriend were making out on the train tracks overlooking the burger chef and they see two suspicious men in a 1973 or 75 green van with bubble windows outside the burger chef just before closing.

[1174] It's the only eyewitness.

[1175] He describes the men as shabbily dressed white men, both estimated to be in their 30.

[1176] these.

[1177] One man has a beard who becomes the bearded man. Okay.

[1178] And the other is clean shaven with light hair and he's acting suspicious.

[1179] He keeps looking down while trying to conceal his face with a bandana.

[1180] Oh, God.

[1181] Sounds like them.

[1182] Like the people who did it.

[1183] Yes.

[1184] Right?

[1185] The teen said the men approached them and tells them to leave because there's been reports of vandalism in the area.

[1186] So the teens take off.

[1187] It's almost like they, the perpetrators knew that there was someone nearby and they were like get the fuck out of here they cased it maybe they cased it they see these kids they're waiting for the kids to leave they're not leaving they know they have to get in there before the trash is taken out or whatever they make them leave yeah yeah yeah that makes sense so the police make a make composite schedule it also just a theory it also maybe points to they only they could have been totally on drugs they only wanted to rob it and then something went wrong right they weren't looking to kill anyone.

[1188] Yeah.

[1189] They wanted no witnesses.

[1190] They wanted their money and they wanted to get out of there, which is usually how those things, I think, go.

[1191] But then robbers and burglars aren't necessarily murderers.

[1192] No. Or don't want to be at least.

[1193] One would think, because that's the whole idea you want to get away and spend your money and, you know, just steal money.

[1194] Right.

[1195] It's a different thing than cold -bloodedly, terribly viciously murdering teenagers.

[1196] Also, warning two teenagers.

[1197] To get out of here.

[1198] Right.

[1199] They would have just killed those kids if that was the case.

[1200] If they were.

[1201] But here's the other thing that bothers me. These two guys might have nothing to do with it.

[1202] They're just two weirdo randoms that like, yeah, it could be red herring.

[1203] That's the problem.

[1204] And it's those, these two.

[1205] So the police make composite sketches based on the eyewitness description of the suspects.

[1206] Those look incredible and so fucking realistic and creepy.

[1207] And so they're like that's, that is the clue because everything else was fucking destroyed.

[1208] They make clay, 3D.

[1209] clay models when the leads don't come up with the drawings they don't look anything.

[1210] They're the creepiest nightmares I've ever seen.

[1211] I know.

[1212] Bless their hearts.

[1213] They need to get the artist that did the John list, 3D clay model.

[1214] Very much so.

[1215] That genius.

[1216] I think it was a woman.

[1217] There's fucking so many theories to get into.

[1218] Listen to the 3C podcast.

[1219] They get into them.

[1220] Okay.

[1221] Pretty much every investigator, whether they've been assigned to the case or not, has a different suspect.

[1222] They're convinced as the perp.

[1223] They're all mad at each other and they all think this is the perp or that's the perp and no one can, you know, prove it.

[1224] Okay.

[1225] Each theorist claims to have inside information regarding their suspect.

[1226] It includes ties to biker gangs, armed robbery crews, organized crime, a police officer's nephew, and connection to the I -65 murders.

[1227] There's just so many theories going on.

[1228] Just can I come in as a armchair quarterback?

[1229] That's what we're here for.

[1230] And say, it's not the mob.

[1231] No, it's not the mob.

[1232] You take that off the list.

[1233] Yeah.

[1234] Because even that it's stupid.

[1235] That's not how they do it.

[1236] And you know that's not how they do it.

[1237] drug smuggling aspect I kind of believe there's even a theory that like maybe they were using the drug smugglers and there were a lot in that area at the time were using the bathrooms at the burger chef to like put their drugs in and then the person would come pick them up in a hiding place and maybe one of the burger chef employees found it and those people lost their shit and also knew that they could turn them in for those drugs so they had to kill them all yes yeah like they became witnesses to the to the bigger crime that was going on and then they had to be gotten rid of.

[1238] Exactly.

[1239] Yeah.

[1240] Wow.

[1241] So, this is big.

[1242] I know.

[1243] One through line is the bearded man. This guy comes up in like a bunch of different iterations.

[1244] Investigators, Ken York and Stoney Van from the Indiana State Police are certain that a robbery gang was operating in the Indianapolis area.

[1245] They think they're the culprits.

[1246] Okay.

[1247] This gang had already hit several other burger chefs and fast food restaurants.

[1248] They were like fast food bandits.

[1249] Okay.

[1250] including burger chefs.

[1251] And in fact, after getting a hot tip about one of these dudes dubbed the shotgun man, they were serving a warrant to this guy.

[1252] And his next door neighbor is mowing his lawn.

[1253] And they're like, holy fucking shit, that's the bearded man. Like, apparently it looked exactly like him.

[1254] Really?

[1255] Yeah.

[1256] And the shotgun man is the fair -haired guy.

[1257] There's other people involved.

[1258] As a result, they had the man, this bearded man, whose name we don't have because he was never indicted.

[1259] Okay.

[1260] He is brought in for questioning and for a lineup.

[1261] When he shows up the next day, he had shaved his beard that he had had for the past five years.

[1262] Uh -huh.

[1263] Sure he did.

[1264] Of course he did.

[1265] Sure he did.

[1266] Years later, when the bearded man dies, his son comes forward and says his father had given him a deathbed compassion that he had done it.

[1267] But there's no, there's nothing.

[1268] Okay.

[1269] There's nothing.

[1270] Can't prove it.

[1271] To tie it together.

[1272] Okay.

[1273] And there's some of those people who are part of that gang that are still alive that there's nothing to tie him together.

[1274] And these, um, investigators are like, the case is solved.

[1275] We know who did it.

[1276] We just can't prove it.

[1277] Wow.

[1278] What about those cigarette butts?

[1279] I don't think they might have just belonged to Jane.

[1280] Oh, right.

[1281] And the burger chef rappers, she worked there.

[1282] And there's just been hers.

[1283] It's so frustrating.

[1284] I know.

[1285] So, Marion County Sheriff's Department, a different department.

[1286] Investigators Mel, uh, Willsey and Gary Maxie, they're certain.

[1287] It's a man named Donald Wayne Forrester.

[1288] He's a popular suspect among us.

[1289] followers of this case.

[1290] At 34 years old, Donald Wayne Forrester, this guy's a fucking piece of shit.

[1291] He had just been convicted of raping a woman in Hamilton County and had like priors for like he was a fucking pedophile burglar piece of shit.

[1292] Okay.

[1293] He and an 18 -year -old accomplice had abducted a woman as she left a nightclub and driven her out of town and raped her.

[1294] And she had only escaped by jumping from the moving car.

[1295] Jesus Christ.

[1296] Hell yes, girl.

[1297] Guess how long he got for this conviction.

[1298] No, no, no, no. This is a good one.

[1299] Oh.

[1300] 95 years in prison.

[1301] Really?

[1302] Can you fucking believe in the 70s?

[1303] Fuck, yes.

[1304] That's what we're talking about.

[1305] Female judge in Indianapolis.

[1306] Jesus Christ.

[1307] That's incredible.

[1308] Isn't it great?

[1309] Yeah.

[1310] And he was about to be transferred as a sex offender in the general population of the...

[1311] AKA killed.

[1312] You're going to get killed at the Indiana State Prison in Michigan City, which what everyone's saying is you'll get killed even if you're not a fucking pedophile.

[1313] Oh, okay.

[1314] If you are, you're fucking dead.

[1315] Now you're truly dead.

[1316] Which makes me not believe it's him because he's trying to get out of this.

[1317] So he's like, I know about the Burger Chef murders.

[1318] Oh, got it.

[1319] You know what I mean?

[1320] Yes.

[1321] It's the jailhouse confession type of thing that's going to get him out.

[1322] And he never has anything totally concrete.

[1323] He is an attention horror too, which is why many people think that they write off his subsequent information on the case.

[1324] And he eventually confess on tape that he had shot Dave.

[1325] He was the one who shot Davis and Shelton.

[1326] And according to him, what had happened was that Jane Freight's brother, James.

[1327] So, Jane is the assistant manager closing that night, that her brother owed money from a drug deal.

[1328] And in fact, that that made sense with James Freitz criminal record.

[1329] Okay.

[1330] But that's what he's been cleared.

[1331] So they say that the brother owed money, he and his associates came to threaten Jane and to threaten her brother.

[1332] Okay.

[1333] And then Flemmons, who was one of the kids, stepped in to protect her, and he's killed, so then they have to kill everyone.

[1334] But wasn't he killed 30 miles away in the forest?

[1335] They said, like, he hit his head, and they had to take them all away all of a sudden.

[1336] But it's like no blood was found, but also no blood was looked for.

[1337] So who the fuck knows?

[1338] Okay.

[1339] So that's just one of the theories.

[1340] Yeah.

[1341] The most compelling fact is that Forrester's ex -wife told authorities in 1979 that her husband, this guy, Forrester, had brought home some shell casings and had to be a lot.

[1342] flush them down their toilet from the area.

[1343] Right.

[1344] The investigators, years later, dig up the septic tank of this house.

[1345] Yes.

[1346] And find shell casings.

[1347] Fuck yeah.

[1348] Which they say match the bullets used in the Burger Chef murders.

[1349] But they must not completely, that must not be enough evidence.

[1350] There must just not be enough.

[1351] It's probably not, it can't be conclusive for.

[1352] Exactly.

[1353] Which I think now they're saying that's not conclusive evidence anymore, like hair.

[1354] and fiber shit, how they're like...

[1355] Bloods battered and all these things.

[1356] I mean, ballistics, though.

[1357] Ballistics, but they've been in a septic tank for fucking, like, a decade.

[1358] Metal is affected by your acidy urine.

[1359] That's right, by your brand muffet.

[1360] And stuff.

[1361] You're blaming me for the acidy urine?

[1362] I'm so sick of the way your acid urine ruins.

[1363] Sorry.

[1364] No, I love it.

[1365] So they, in all detect, these detectives spent 18 months pursuing Forrester, full time they just like zero in on him and I think they maybe get blinders on it and don't and in my mind it's like it makes sense yeah they they drive him out to and they're like he picked out where it was but now that we know all these like confession tapes on Netflix talking about how easy it is to feed to lead someone to a spot like it's just hard to believe he failed two polygraph tests and later recanted his confession died of cancer in 2006 so but they still think it's him um okay roundabout member of the bombings you sure do we're going back to that okay on september 20th 1978 federal agents arrested a 27 year old man named brett kimberlin for attempting to illegally obtain united states government credentials here's this guy he's a fucking odd bird he's a known drug trafficker in speedway and around the surrounding areas but he also put his money in legit cover businesses like retail health food store a vegetarian restaurant an earth shoe franchise?

[1366] Earth's shoes.

[1367] Did you know them?

[1368] Yeah, they went up hill.

[1369] The front of the shoe was higher than the back of the shoe.

[1370] And so I think they tried to sell them like, ergonomics or something where it was like you were always walking up hill and it was supposed to be good for you.

[1371] Oh my God.

[1372] Well, he had a franchise.

[1373] He had an Earth shoe.

[1374] That'd be like if he was like, I'm going to take my drug money and invested in a bunch of Dr. Scholes.

[1375] Yeah, it's basically in health food stores back in the 70s.

[1376] Like nobody's that.

[1377] That guy's a genius because no one suspects hippies.

[1378] Exactly.

[1379] Okay.

[1380] So they obtain a search warrant after this, after they arrest him for his home and vehicle.

[1381] Investigators found wiring similar to those used on the explosive devices of this guy.

[1382] Yeah.

[1383] And subsequent search of his home reveals more than 1 ,000 pounds of marijuana.

[1384] That's too much marijuana.

[1385] That's not a problem.

[1386] Oh, you're right.

[1387] That's way too much marijuana.

[1388] But back then, it's like an elephant.

[1389] Like one pound of marijuana is equal to like one hit of marijuana.

[1390] Is it?

[1391] Today.

[1392] Today, yeah.

[1393] You had to smoke all of that and knock it as high as you cut off like a vape pen today.

[1394] Off of one gummy that you accidentally eat at the concert that your friend's like, come on, split it with me. And then you're just like crying in the corner and you can't actually sip your drink because the liquid won't go in.

[1395] Did you see me at this bill?

[1396] Yes, I've been watching.

[1397] Oh, shit.

[1398] Okay.

[1399] So there's no motive established at the bombing trial, but prosecutors and police believe Kimberlin went on the bombing spree to deflect attention away from another ongoing investigation that was focusing on him.

[1400] What's that other ongoing investigation that he used a bomb to distract from?

[1401] The murder of Julia?

[1402] Yep.

[1403] Are you fucking kidding?

[1404] Here's what fucking happened.

[1405] While authorities were looking into the murder of 65 -year -old Julia Seifers, they discovered that Julia, quote, violently disapproves of her daughter, her daughter's relationship with Kimberlin.

[1406] So her daughter, who's like in her 20s, is friends with this guy, Brett Kimberlin.

[1407] And she's, and she's, Julia's especially concerned about the strange affection.

[1408] Kimberlun is paying to the, her, to Julia's granddaughter.

[1409] Yep.

[1410] Who's fucking 10 years old.

[1411] And he's like 20 something.

[1412] Yeah.

[1413] And he's fucking clearly grooming her.

[1414] And Julia's like, no thank you.

[1415] No, this isn't happening.

[1416] No way.

[1417] Her daughter is kind of letting it happen.

[1418] Or blind to it.

[1419] Yeah.

[1420] Yeah.

[1421] Julia learned that her granddaughter had gone with Kimberlin on several solo out -of -state trips.

[1422] No. And proclaimed that he wanted to marry her when she grew up.

[1423] No, no, no, no, no. No. So Julia's like, hell, no. And was in the process of arranging for her daughter and granddaughter to come move in with her because she wanted to get them away from Kimberlin.

[1424] Yes.

[1425] And it was possible.

[1426] So she was going to report him for drug smuggling and pedophilia because she knew that her daughter was beginning to help smuggle drugs for Kimberland.

[1427] Shit.

[1428] So she basically tried to break in on this super, super pervy, disgusting criminal and the bullshit he was pulling on her family.

[1429] And before she could do it, she was shot in the head in her garage.

[1430] So the husband didn't know, Julia's husband didn't know what the boyfriend looked like.

[1431] Well, here's the thing.

[1432] Oh.

[1433] He briefly saw the shooter.

[1434] It wasn't Kimberlin.

[1435] He knew Kimberland.

[1436] But it was identified as a closest.

[1437] associate of Kimberlens named William Bowman, and he's the one who shot his wife, he said.

[1438] So you were fucking right in the beginning of the hit.

[1439] Holy shit.

[1440] It goes all the way to their feck and bowels of hell.

[1441] That's right.

[1442] In June 1981, Kimberlin's convicted of the bombing and drug charges.

[1443] He receives a sentence of 50 years in federal prison.

[1444] After his conviction, prosecutors released yellow legal pads that they had confiscated from him, which said, had detailed plans to kill key eyewitnesses and prosecutors on the case as well as stage another series of bombings to provide him an alibi.

[1445] Dude, the bombing thing doesn't work.

[1446] So the day of the first bombing was the same day that Kimberlin was supposed to come into the police office to talk to detectives about Julia's claims.

[1447] So that's, he used a bomb to distract them and make them busy.

[1448] He couldn't come in and talk to them.

[1449] Oh.

[1450] So the bombing part being a distraction to the investigation is an important include here because you see Kimberlin had begun to include Julia's daughter in his drug smuggling business and the night before she was going to be called in to talk to authorities the burger chef murders occurred so this is fucking conspiracy theory bill and there's no fucking proof at all I'm just getting the feeling of the cop that starts linking these things together and the feeling they must have gotten as they're like wait ding ding ding these random crazy awful violent things are not random.

[1451] And it's a stretch to go from killing this specific target and setting off bombs.

[1452] It seems like he didn't actually plan to hurt anyone.

[1453] And as soon as he did, the bombing stopped.

[1454] But he did counter, Melinda told us, he did counter sue her family when they tried to sue him to get money for her grandparents' injuries.

[1455] Are you serious?

[1456] Yeah.

[1457] Investigators continue to follow leads relating to possible suspects.

[1458] They go to Cincinnati, Milwaukee.

[1459] Chicago.

[1460] They go everywhere trying to fucking track down leads, but they've been unable to come up with anything promising.

[1461] They can't locate any of the evidence they thought would have been useful, like a gun, any of the murder weapons.

[1462] Despite thousands of hours of police investigation, the attackers were never prosecuted and the case remains officially unsolved 40 years later.

[1463] It'll be 41 a couple days after this comes out.

[1464] Oh my God.

[1465] That's right.

[1466] Retired state police investigator Brock Appleby said, quote, that investigation could be used.

[1467] as an example of what not to do.

[1468] During the summer of 2018, the community of Speedway raised money to plant four red oak trees in honor of the Burger Chef victims.

[1469] Each tree is a plaque with a short description of each of the victims.

[1470] Ruth Shelton says creative, honest, and kind with a love for music.

[1471] Jane Freight says, a leader with a sense of humor and a heart of gold.

[1472] Mark Fleming says, friendly and selfless with a sense of style.

[1473] And Daniel Roy Davis as talented photographer who made love one smile.

[1474] And that is the burger chef murders.

[1475] Holy shit.

[1476] That is unfucking believable.

[1477] How crazy is that fucking story.

[1478] It's so weird.

[1479] And you know what's funny is that I really did.

[1480] I've heard the name of the burger chef murders.

[1481] And I assume I put them in, I put it in with basically every other case.

[1482] Brown's chicken murder.

[1483] There's so many.

[1484] Where you just go, okay, this is a story of human greed.

[1485] where somebody who, it's the 70s, people are all on fucking terrible crank and really bad white drugs, shit that like no one should have put into their body, they've gone totally insane, and now they're just shooting other human beings for $40.

[1486] And like for thrill, like thrill kills and shit.

[1487] And weird bullshit of like, we'll just do this until the cops kill us, essentially.

[1488] I mean, that's a common story.

[1489] So a lot of those ones, and we have different interests when we look in these things, I'm more in the serial killer realm of what is this intense psychopathy, but stories like that, especially when they're unsolved, I find very frustrating and upsetting.

[1490] So I just put this in the file of all the other fast food murders, basically.

[1491] I didn't know any of that shit.

[1492] I did too, and then I started reading the book about it, and it's just there's like crimes that, like, I could have gone into the I -65 murders.

[1493] I could have gone into like other local, there were other local fast food chain murders that had happened around that time.

[1494] Unbelievable.

[1495] There's so many stories about them.

[1496] And then these four fucking people who you think about what they went through the last couple hours of their lives being taken away and knowing this was like not going to end well, you know, knowing their killers.

[1497] Right.

[1498] Personally, it's just, it's horrific.

[1499] It's horrific.

[1500] Oh, my God.

[1501] Amazing job.

[1502] Thank you.

[1503] Yeah.

[1504] Oh, there was something as you told me that I was watching my own reactions to it.

[1505] And I couldn't stop wanting to say jokes because it was starting to freak me out.

[1506] No, no, no, but I mean, when people ask us about the weird connection or isn't it an appropriate or blah, blah, blah, it really is the way I deal with stress and being upset and being extremely unhappy for other people is I need to comment on it in a way that.

[1507] Well, we break the tension.

[1508] You're breaking that because tension is filled with tension right now because that's incredibly terrible.

[1509] No, I mean, but also it's the kind of tension where you go, yes, let's all talk about these stories as long as we have to so that you do have current day police people saying you do not do it this way.

[1510] Yeah.

[1511] We no longer do it this way.

[1512] We have learned the lessons from these terrible cold cases where people are murdered and nobody pays for it.

[1513] Well, it's the same thing, too, of why I love hometown stories and why, like, I've always been fascinated by people's hometown murders is, like, Speedway, Indiana is this place where everyone was traumatized.

[1514] Yes.

[1515] In the late 70s, everyone's parents have this story about it.

[1516] You know, everyone's parents worked at this fast food place and had the night off and all these.

[1517] And everyone was scared of the bombings.

[1518] And it kind of like, you have this little town where this little thing happens that's not national news that traumatizes.

[1519] the town and makes everyone make decisions differently.

[1520] Yes.

[1521] And everyone has those stories.

[1522] And if it wasn't for the very bizarre coincidence of Jones Town happening breaking on the same newsday, it would have been a national story.

[1523] It would have stayed a national story.

[1524] But instead, it just got obliterated, yet it was still there.

[1525] And for that town, it's never not been there.

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] I mean, unbelievable.

[1528] Yeah.

[1529] Wow.

[1530] Crazy.

[1531] Should we do?

[1532] Fucking hooray.

[1533] It feels inappropriate, honestly, to do fucking hooray?

[1534] Well, that's the whole idea of fucking hooray, though.

[1535] It's the record scratch moment of cocaine.

[1536] We're not there anymore.

[1537] And it, hey, a little gratitude that it's no longer 1978.

[1538] Oh, thank God.

[1539] It wasn't a nice time.

[1540] I was there.

[1541] Yeah.

[1542] I was there riding backwards on station wagons with 17 other kids in one car.

[1543] No seat belts.

[1544] No seat belts.

[1545] Smoking with a windows rolled, adult smoking, children smoking.

[1546] You were forced to smoke in carpool.

[1547] That's right, Anne Benedetti.

[1548] I'm confronting it.

[1549] Just kidding.

[1550] She was the best.

[1551] She was the best carpool mom.

[1552] And pounds, thousands of pounds of weed would still not get you I. It was all skunked.

[1553] Just give you a headache.

[1554] Okay.

[1555] Speaking of that.

[1556] Do you want to go first?

[1557] Sure.

[1558] I just, my fucking hooray.

[1559] Vince?

[1560] No. No. Sometimes you get that tone of voice or you're like, I just have to say one more thing Vince did, which I love.

[1561] It's not far away.

[1562] It is a love.

[1563] Okay.

[1564] I got to see my brand new baby nephew over the weekend.

[1565] So, yeah, you fucking saw the look in my face.

[1566] Yeah, it's your love voice.

[1567] I recognize it.

[1568] He's just, he's brand new.

[1569] How big?

[1570] Like a month old, barely opening his eyes.

[1571] Is it like this?

[1572] He's not funny yet.

[1573] Like watermelon size?

[1574] Not even.

[1575] Smaller than?

[1576] Like teeny tiny.

[1577] Canaloupe?

[1578] Can't, mm. Little oblong?

[1579] Yes, exactly.

[1580] And he just spent.

[1581] so good and he's got the little hands and he's just like so precious and sweet and cute and I love holding him I'm just staring at him but this is my other nephew's baby brother the 101 to the 405 to the 110 yes just quick reminder if you don't know George's of the other nephew who is four for you just repeats what he hears his parents say which is what all children do but when you live in Los Angeles you often say things like the 101 to the 405 to the 10 to the 110 to 10 to the 110 well you know what else he says no and I feel like he's such a hard stark and I love it he's when someone asks him to do something he doesn't want to do he goes I'm tired which hard starks are like champion nappers and I'm just like yes I'm tired I'm tired so he has this little baby brother now and oh that's the best so sweet that's nice that's a good one yeah what's yours mine's very similar it's about my fan weekend no we didn't because we posted a live show last week we never really got to like I was saying this before we started recording I was saying this to you and Stephen we never really got to like do a full on talk down about how that weekend was for us so I just want to say now it was bewilderingly wonderful and we were or at least I'll speak for myself no I have I have I I can speak for you.

[1582] Yes, you can.

[1583] We were so fucking worried that it wasn't going to go well.

[1584] We were so worried.

[1585] There were so many variables that could have gone wrong.

[1586] Yes.

[1587] And we were thinking about all of them.

[1588] And we were worried.

[1589] We were very stringent about the way we were doing it and how much we were asking of people.

[1590] And we were very uncomfortable.

[1591] And the whole thing was very worrisome in our way of we want people to feel good and be happy that they're participating.

[1592] And so holding, I didn't understand how much of that stress I was holding until the night one when we walked out to give the welcome speech and all of these listeners were standing there.

[1593] And they also put it in this, the most echoey kind of the spot that they could have.

[1594] But the, like, the cheering and the clapping that we got in that moment was so exciting and beautiful and kind of like another one of those moments where we stand there and go like, oh, they're with us.

[1595] Yeah.

[1596] Like, we don't have to worry that all the sudden, all these people are going to be, like, cross their arms and be like, my thing didn't come on time.

[1597] We don't like you anymore.

[1598] That's not how our people do it.

[1599] No. And that kicked off the most fun weekend where we got to have great conversations and talk to people and see people.

[1600] There are people that have come to so many shows of ours.

[1601] Laura, who came, who, I mean, there's all these people.

[1602] And there was people that we just kept meeting who kept saying, like, I just met these friends.

[1603] I came alone.

[1604] Yes.

[1605] I got tagged in so many group photos of we didn't know each other and now we're all best friends.

[1606] And we all came together because we met through my favorite murder.

[1607] And it was so heartwarming.

[1608] It was incredible.

[1609] Then the murder, you know, makers who came to sell their stuff at the weekend all told us they had the best sales weekends of their lives.

[1610] And everyone was so friendly and cool and excited.

[1611] And the products were amazing And it just all felt It was just like It was such a satisfying And then of course All of our friends got to be there You know We per cast Murder Squad I O Tillett Wright DJ Dante Fontana And DJ Fifi LaRue Our close friends Amazing And then just all the people That came and like Threwdown and participated And the very last night I will say this Just to wrap it up This is a big thank you But it's also like This is a It's such a weird experience The weirdest And it just keeps getting fucking weirder.

[1612] I know.

[1613] It's like, it's hard to anticipate anything.

[1614] I felt the same way when we came out that first night.

[1615] It was like, you're with us.

[1616] You're so with us.

[1617] Like, it was 25 times louder than what I thought it was going to be.

[1618] Because I thought it would be like, people sipping their wine and being like, oh, yay, we finally landed.

[1619] And the energy and the enthusiasm and the love was so amazing.

[1620] So lucky.

[1621] And with great conversations.

[1622] But then at the very, very end, the last night, we went back to our hotel.

[1623] and there were two sets of people that were in the hotel in this hotel bar that was completely empty except for I want to say one woman's name was Joyce I bet you're right and I think the other one's name was Kathy but anyway one was there with a it was her and her husband's anniversary weekend that he got the package for her and he was saying he had a shirt that said keep your eyes on the what was it he had a shirt about how his wife might kill him Right.

[1624] That was so funny.

[1625] Never turn, never, never, like, sleep with one eye open.

[1626] When you were married to a murdering now?

[1627] Yes.

[1628] She had made him a shirt that said that.

[1629] She, when we walked into this empty bar, basically, stood up, gave us a standing ovation.

[1630] I walked straight over because she looked like a familiar person.

[1631] And then she gave me a speech about how proud she is of us that was so goddamn touching and so momish and beautiful.

[1632] And then the other woman's name and I want to say Kathy, but that's kind of a. She was on her honeymoon.

[1633] She was on, it was her birthday weekend.

[1634] That's right.

[1635] And her husband got her the package for the birthday, for her birthday as a gift.

[1636] They were so sweet.

[1637] It was just like everywhere we turned, there was a person going, hey, hooray.

[1638] And it was cool too because like our agents were there who we love, Joe and Orrin.

[1639] Yeah.

[1640] Stephen was there with his amazing girlfriend.

[1641] Jay was there with his amazing girlfriend.

[1642] Danielle was there.

[1643] Adrian was there.

[1644] It was just like, it was a really fun.

[1645] Vince, of course.

[1646] And Vince, of course, was running the show.

[1647] but it was like it was really also it was like a shit it was um live show experience for us but we weren't alone yeah because we've been going out and traveling all around and having those experiences by ourselves and then coming back and being like bye say you're like it's very weird to we hug in the elevator and like good job and ben's like 6 a .m tomorrow please be downstairs at 6 a .m. um yeah so it's it was kind of like pulling everybody in to go can you please come and watch this experience that we've been having and understand it with us because it's not so long story short thank you yeah and hopefully we'll do more weekends and in different places yeah we have to do it we have to do it more because we really we and thank you for CID which the company that arranged the entire thing every single person said that the people they worked with all the people that helped them were great everything went on time everything was beautifully done and the Arlington theater in Santa Barbara was so generous and gorgeous.

[1648] Gorgeous and it was like our home base.

[1649] Anyway, just like, oh my God, and thank you and the usual.

[1650] And if you didn't get to go, almost everybody from exactly right network has posted their live shows from that weekend.

[1651] So there's a live per cast, there's a live murder squad, there's us and there's the minisode as well.

[1652] Yeah.

[1653] And there will be more to come, but don't feel left out.

[1654] We will do it again.

[1655] And, you know, for all the people that were there, thank you for making it such a really special experience.

[1656] I've had so much coffee that I could actually keep on talking about that experience for 10 more minutes because now I want to talk about the fancy hotel we stayed at.

[1657] Now I want to talk about it.

[1658] It's really sweet because there's so much going on with us in our lives.

[1659] It's only been for almost four years.

[1660] That's it.

[1661] And these live shows are so, they've become this thing that we just do and we go on stage and they're great and we have so much fun and it just happens and we record in this office and it just happens.

[1662] But then there's these little moments like when you meet a special, like, a fan, or you go to these incredible weekends or, like, someone, you know, sends you a lovely letter that just, like, hits you how fucking big this is.

[1663] Yeah.

[1664] And how life -changing this has been for us.

[1665] It has.

[1666] This is not how I expected my life to be at all.

[1667] And it's the most shockingly wonderful thing that's ever, let's, I could have ever imagined.

[1668] Yeah.

[1669] I might have to go under the table and have a quick cry.

[1670] I'll be down there with you but I'll be making fun of you the whole time that's okay because I can't cry it's just from the inside of this people tell us from the outside all the time like we're proud of you or this is exciting or it's been so cool to watch this from the inside it's been so fucking weird we can't even explain it we might as well have been abducted by aliens but thank you for still being there with us because it continues apparently we'll do it as long as you feel like doing it totally like let's fucking and just do it.

[1671] And we appreciate you guys listening.

[1672] Yes.

[1673] Thank you so much.

[1674] Stay sexy.

[1675] And don't get murdered.

[1676] Goodbye.

[1677] Elvis, you want a cookie?

[1678] Gras.