Elijah Wood

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dax Shepherd.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Lily Padman.

[3] We are in Gay Pari.

[4] That's right.

[5] Oh, my God, what a tree.

[6] It's beautiful.

[7] It's rainy.

[8] And I don't even have sad here.

[9] Yeah, that is weird.

[10] Well, it's not weird.

[11] It's part of the vibe.

[12] If the shopping's good enough, you won't have sad.

[13] That's the cure.

[14] That's the key.

[15] So if you are suffering from sad, go shopping.

[16] We figured it out.

[17] You know who doesn't have sad?

[18] Elijah Wood.

[19] No, he has happy and he gives me happy.

[20] Yes, of course.

[21] He couldn't have sad and have lived in New Zealand for so long because it's a temperate climate.

[22] There's clouds and whatnot.

[23] Elijah Wood, of course, is an actor and a producer.

[24] You know him from Lord of the Rings, Green Street, Wilfred, and Sin City.

[25] And he has a new movie out right now called No Man of God.

[26] No Man of God follows serial killer Ted Bundy as he develops a strange and complicated relationship with FBI agent Bill Hagmire while detailing his heinous crimes after being sentenced to death.

[27] by electrocution.

[28] Oh, this is perfect for Halloween.

[29] Oh, my gosh.

[30] I got the spirit already.

[31] I want the armchairs to hear the sounds of Paris.

[32] Wee, we!

[33] What else?

[34] Merci!

[35] With lots of love and respect.

[36] That's all love and respect.

[37] It is.

[38] Oh, absolutely.

[39] We love it here.

[40] Okay.

[41] Please enjoy it.

[42] Elijah Wood.

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[44] Now, join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[45] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[46] Do you guys wear headphones the whole time?

[47] You don't have to.

[48] Yeah, it's totally up to you.

[49] Yeah, it's whatever you like to do.

[50] You've been interviewed a million times.

[51] I don't need to tell you, but I find that I feel 4 % smarter.

[52] When you can hear your voice loudly.

[53] When I hear my voice coming through headphones, I really do.

[54] I feel like it somehow validates that we should be doing this.

[55] It also like a real job.

[56] That's the thing.

[57] It feels real.

[58] It feels like what we're doing is real.

[59] That's right.

[60] Great point, Monica.

[61] Like, if we were just chatting, then we'd be like, what is this a fucking chat?

[62] Right.

[63] Put the headphones on.

[64] We're like, oh, this is an industry.

[65] That's a job.

[66] Wow.

[67] So this is where the magic happens, right in this room.

[68] Yes.

[69] I love it.

[70] This little room for like almost going on four years and we're both, well, I think all through, I don't know.

[71] Wobie Wobie Wobie Wobody feel about the building the new place.

[72] What do you mean?

[73] 40 feet that way I'm building a barn.

[74] Okay.

[75] And then above the barn.

[76] I love a barn.

[77] Me too.

[78] Good.

[79] It's kind of a dream.

[80] Yeah, same.

[81] Really?

[82] Is it because Iowa and Michigan?

[83] Why is it?

[84] No, I love them aesthetically.

[85] I love the giant art ceilings, all of the exposed post and beams.

[86] I love all that.

[87] Me too.

[88] Just from an architectural standpoint.

[89] And converting a barn specific.

[90] Because I love a barn as its function.

[91] Sure.

[92] But I also love a barn in a conversion sense where you can make it something.

[93] I love spaces that are meant to be one thing and are converted to something else.

[94] Mix messages.

[95] Mixed messages.

[96] We love mixed messages.

[97] We're all about mixed messages.

[98] I guess it's our motto or our life.

[99] What do we say?

[100] It's a mantra in a way.

[101] We love mixed messages.

[102] So even right now, you're banging mixed messages.

[103] So I know you're from Iowa.

[104] Yeah.

[105] And like I look at you, I'm like one of the least looking Iowa guys I've ever met.

[106] I don't even know what that means.

[107] You mean like he's not wearing corn stock shirts and stuff?

[108] No, cowboy hat.

[109] No, but you just look, I would say you look Euro.

[110] Okay.

[111] In a good way.

[112] That's cool.

[113] Like, even in fact, I just learned about you, is your partner Danish?

[114] Yes.

[115] I was like, you know, Elijah could be Danish.

[116] That to me...

[117] Oh, I could see that.

[118] I do have Dane way back in European lineage.

[119] Danish.

[120] And then there's also like English and Irish in there too.

[121] But yeah, there's Danish in there.

[122] Right.

[123] So you have this wonderful aesthetic.

[124] Your eyes are insane, obviously.

[125] You already know they're your calling card.

[126] But you have these enormous sharp blue eyes.

[127] You look healthy.

[128] Your style is a little bit Euro, which I really like.

[129] Thank you.

[130] You don't have like a fucking angel backpiece like Dan Affleck or anything.

[131] I have a stick and poke woman on my left shoulder.

[132] See, stick and poke.

[133] I have some silly tattoos from a film festival in Austin, Texas, called Fantastic Fest, where they give out free tattoos at the closing night party.

[134] They've been doing this for about six years.

[135] Give up free tattoos.

[136] I literally, I'll show you.

[137] Please do.

[138] Oh, this is great.

[139] Like not what you go to choose to have, but it's a firecracker.

[140] This was...

[141] A ship or something?

[142] Oh no, it's a laser gun.

[143] Yeah, it's a Raygun, which was the logo of the festival that year.

[144] That's a rubber chicken, which was in reference to a Danish movie with Mess Mickelson called Men and Chickens that played at the festival that year.

[145] And there's a kaiju, and that is in reference to a Nacho Vigalondo movie with a giant monster.

[146] This is my stick and poke lady.

[147] I like her.

[148] Who did that?

[149] Taddy Compton.

[150] She's an incredible stick and poke artist.

[151] based here in L .A., she's from the U .K. I and my fiancé had been following her on Instagram and just, like, loving her work and just made an appointment.

[152] And kind of, I gave her a variety of reference images that I sort of wanted, but without, like, a great deal of specificity because I just wanted her work.

[153] Yeah.

[154] And then she came up with something, and then we did a tiny modification on the day, and that's what it was.

[155] Okay, so back to me saying, like, tasteful.

[156] I stand by it, because you don't have, like, a big agro fucking skull.

[157] and some flames.

[158] Yeah, I don't have a, I don't have a sleeve.

[159] You don't have a, sure, sure.

[160] I want a sleeve.

[161] Do you want a sleeve?

[162] I want more tattoos.

[163] Yeah, but the acting gets in the way, right?

[164] I don't know.

[165] I mean, if you're okay with sitting in makeup a little bit longer.

[166] I'm not.

[167] Are you?

[168] Sure.

[169] Well, fuck, your whole career's been like prosthetic shit and really, really intense stuff.

[170] Right, so you don't have anything below your sleeve.

[171] Well, let's see.

[172] This was the thing I'm talking about.

[173] It was fucking tribonne, it was a sun with fire coming out and it was a from a, a punk band I liked soulside and it was just too big and not nice.

[174] A lotus tree or?

[175] Close.

[176] A cherry blossom.

[177] And so I'm heading in your direction.

[178] I'm trying to not be tough and anger.

[179] I'm trying to be delicate and tasteful and artistic and elevated.

[180] Yeah.

[181] I don't want to be a Philistine with my tattoo.

[182] Well, look, I think any approach that one takes with body art is fine.

[183] It's what means something to you.

[184] Tattoos by their very nature, I think, are.

[185] just meaningful expressions.

[186] And the stick and poke didn't have an emotional resonance, but it was an artistic one.

[187] It was a piece of art that I loved that I would love to have on my body.

[188] I have the Lord of the Rings tattoo.

[189] That is elvish for the number nine.

[190] That is very specific to a moment in time, to a group of people, to a connection to New Zealand and otherwise.

[191] So it's whatever means something to you.

[192] I have a question about the film festival tattoos.

[193] Yeah.

[194] So is it a standard tattoo that they give everyone?

[195] So it started, God I want to say it was pre -pandemic, right?

[196] So I have to go back an additional two years.

[197] So it would have been seven years ago that they were starting it and it was just an idea that they had at the closing night party and I think it was available to everyone at that stage.

[198] I think that became untenable.

[199] Sure.

[200] There's so many people and I think you could like opt in the first year.

[201] Then they figured out a way to basically service X amount of people and kind of cap it because it was sort of...

[202] Oh, and then the people that couldn't do it at the closing night party, they were like, you can go to this tattoo artist and get it on your own time.

[203] Brain check.

[204] Got it.

[205] If you want.

[206] And then every year, there were, I think, six designs that you could choose from.

[207] So it wasn't a single design.

[208] It was a series, and all of them were based on something to do with either the films that played at the festival or the festival itself.

[209] And it would change every year.

[210] Okay, so here's where I think we might have some overlap.

[211] Did you spend time in New Zealand?

[212] I did.

[213] With Seth Green, right?

[214] That's right.

[215] Who you remind me a ton of by the way.

[216] Seth is such a lovely human being.

[217] He's the best we've got.

[218] I don't understand how a person is that benevolent and also successful and driven.

[219] Yeah.

[220] He's extremely special.

[221] Without a paddle, was that the film?

[222] Yes, without a paddle, yes.

[223] Good.

[224] You're a fan.

[225] He's a big fan.

[226] I remember when that was happening because I just remember thinking, oh, God, they're going to have so much fun in New Zealand.

[227] Because that was after we had made rings.

[228] Exactly.

[229] And we had a good deal of your crew.

[230] So the year before, like this is a $20 million comedy.

[231] And I think like eight people in the production had won Academy Awards that previous year from your film.

[232] Yeah.

[233] Like the hair and makeup was that, the costume designer, all amazing people.

[234] And as you would know way more than me, I think I was down there for four months.

[235] And I just loved it.

[236] Like, I was bonkers for that place.

[237] Isn't it incredible?

[238] I'm saddened that I haven't found my way back for fun.

[239] Yeah, I was like 16 years ago.

[240] So you were there cumulatively for two years, maybe?

[241] It was 16 months of principal photography.

[242] And then we went back every year for additional footage, two months, one and a half to two months a year for each individual film.

[243] So it was over the course of four years.

[244] Yes.

[245] It was our time.

[246] Oh, and then here we go.

[247] So you guys had the premiere for the third one while we were shooting in Wellington.

[248] Yes.

[249] And they flew a fucking Monica.

[250] me tell the story.

[251] So I was renting an apartment like in the downtown street.

[252] Oh, you were based in Wellington?

[253] Yes.

[254] Okay, cool.

[255] And there was one kind of downtown street.

[256] You all marched down.

[257] Let me set this.

[258] Courtney Place is where we walked.

[259] Okay, great.

[260] So I had an apartment on Courtney place on the top floor.

[261] So I'm on my balcony.

[262] At that time in New Zealand, there were only three million human beings.

[263] And the one million people attended that.

[264] Do you remember this?

[265] There was a huge parade.

[266] Yes.

[267] And it went all the way.

[268] You guys left maybe the intercontinental and somehow walked.

[269] I think you're Right, yeah.

[270] So this was like, there's nothing to compare it to here in the States.

[271] Like, it was like Super Bowl times 10.

[272] Just one third of the country had come to this thing.

[273] And so I'm like, I'm bonkers to think about.

[274] Yes.

[275] And like spilling out of buildings and balconies and rooftops.

[276] Like it was really right.

[277] And then all funneling down this street and at the end of the street was this huge theater where the premiere was.

[278] But I'm outside like looking at this spectacle and it's incredible.

[279] And then I hear like, I think like World War II sound.

[280] Like I hear a fucking airplane.

[281] like descending, right?

[282] And I turn in, I look, and there is a 747, is that what it was?

[283] Yeah.

[284] Whatever the biggest goddamn airplane, Kwanis Airlines could scratch up.

[285] Was it Kwanis?

[286] No, it was Air New Zealand.

[287] Okay, Air Nose Zealand.

[288] A 747 fucking buzzed that parade, which I'm sure I'm exaggerating.

[289] What's that mean?

[290] Flew much lower than his - On the fourth floor of this apartment building, I thought I was, I could touch the fucking, yeah, it was incredible.

[291] Did you think it was a terrorist attack?

[292] No, because their faces were on the side of the airplane.

[293] And I was think those terrorists spent so much time and got a really good muralist because that is fucking phenomenal.

[294] So, no, it was clear that this was some kind of participation.

[295] But, man, they flew at 747, I don't know, 400 feet off the ground or something.

[296] It was incredible.

[297] Yeah, crazy.

[298] Really crazy.

[299] And then, and just to give you a little inside dirt, so Seth and Matt were, well, Matt in particular, Lillard.

[300] He was going to die if he didn't make it to that premiere on time.

[301] And we were, we had to shoot.

[302] that day, right?

[303] So, oh, no way.

[304] The whole day he was really campaigning for us to get out to go to the, anyways, we went to it.

[305] But the best part, we did.

[306] We did.

[307] I went to that premiere.

[308] Amazing.

[309] That was a big hoopla for you.

[310] I mean, that's a, that's sensory overload.

[311] It was a little overwhelming.

[312] Yeah.

[313] How do you feel in those stitches?

[314] That was like a Beatles moment for you.

[315] Kind of, you sort of lean on the people around you.

[316] Right.

[317] Like we were all experiencing that thing collectively together.

[318] And that's about all you can do to process it.

[319] Also, emotionally, it was the last time you guys were going to do that theoretically.

[320] There's that to, it was a homecoming.

[321] And New Zealand felt like home.

[322] So as big as that spectacle was, it was also, that was Courtney Place, it was the NBC theater.

[323] Like, we know this place, we know these people.

[324] Wait, does anyone hear this story of a million people on the street and like, panic?

[325] Like, I don't think I could ever be around that many people now.

[326] Well, can I tell you, though?

[327] Oh, that's interesting.

[328] Yeah.

[329] When you're in Manhattan, but when you're in Manhattan during the day, Manhattan and swells to like 12 million people and that's a nine mile long island but i'm saying now like even now in new york i wonder how i'd feel like oh my god so many people it's so crowded everyone's sick everyone's dying everyone's sick everyone might shoot me like i just like am panicked now around all those people i'm not are you not really i just came from europe and in denmark they don't have a mask mandate anymore so it's almost like it's not happening Yeah, yeah.

[330] Despite the fact that it is happening, but they don't have a mask mandate.

[331] So walking around, it's as if there is no pandemic.

[332] And we're on trains and train stations and surrounded by people.

[333] And it was kind of amazing how quickly you do accept that old reality.

[334] It's muscle memory.

[335] Your body just goes, oh, this is how it was, right?

[336] Instead of that panic.

[337] But I understand that.

[338] I think my body just went to, oh, this is good.

[339] I see faces and I'm, you know, around other people again.

[340] I'm with you.

[341] I was just in Michigan for like five days.

[342] And guess what?

[343] It's not there.

[344] That's a scary situation.

[345] Well, how's that different than Denmark?

[346] I bet it's the same vaccination rate.

[347] I doubt it.

[348] I doubt it.

[349] I doubt that.

[350] Well, where I was at in Oakland County, it's a blue bubble.

[351] Oh, actually, yeah, Michigan is a little bit more.

[352] We've only gone read the first Trump election.

[353] Prior to that, it's because it's a union state.

[354] So it's very democratic.

[355] But anyways, my take.

[356] away from that was like, A, I enjoyed it, just like you're saying.

[357] I was like, oh, fuck, I forgot there was a thing.

[358] And I didn't get sick.

[359] Whatever.

[360] I left going like, man, the power of your group is everything.

[361] Like the power of socialization, the power of groups, I adapted to that group within two days.

[362] Like I was aware of it the first day.

[363] And then it was gone.

[364] I just go to a restaurant, never thought about it.

[365] Everyone around me, I don't know.

[366] I think you get such clues from everyone that are almost inescapable.

[367] You do.

[368] And you also take comfort in that group dynamic as long as you trust that that group dynamic is making the right choice but absolutely yeah yeah I was just really overwhelmed with like oh wow I left L .A. panicked and then 36 hours later I've never heard of Corona and then I came back to L .A. and then it's like having a dream yes yeah where did you spend your quarantine here in Los Angeles well you did yeah and you've lived here since 1989 is that yeah 89 great year Monica's two years old at that point two and you're eight years old yes yeah it's a bummer that you're already linked up.

[369] Anyways, the age gap is nice.

[370] That's a good gap.

[371] Yeah, six years, seven years.

[372] That's kind of the dream for a man, because we're basically six years immature.

[373] That's true.

[374] That's true.

[375] That's very true.

[376] It really is.

[377] Yeah, women do mature way faster.

[378] They do.

[379] It takes us a while to catch up.

[380] That's true.

[381] Six years even is a little It's on the cusp.

[382] Yeah, it's a little on the cusp.

[383] It's a nice 10 -year gap.

[384] Also, I'm a little nervous that you're not comfortable.

[385] Do you feel like I'm...

[386] Well, I want you however comfortable you are, but I'm nervous that you're not, yeah, there we go.

[387] Fuck me, man. Rob, get the camera back out.

[388] I observed the same thing, and I thought, this guy is an enigma to me because he wants to sit up straight with not, he's not lazy.

[389] With this started before we're recording is that you wake up two hours early before your call time.

[390] Yes.

[391] And call times are generally quite early.

[392] Yes.

[393] So what time are we talking about wait?

[394] So it's anywhere between an hour and a half to two hours.

[395] So what's the cap?

[396] Will you wake up at four?

[397] I will say, yeah, yeah.

[398] Oh, wow.

[399] Yeah.

[400] In fact, I was just in Bulgaria working on a film and I think I had a 5 .30 a .m. call.

[401] And I think I woke up at like 3 .45.

[402] Wow.

[403] And are you able to go to sleep?

[404] Yeah.

[405] Wow.

[406] Yeah.

[407] Touch and go.

[408] It depends.

[409] Depends on how adjusted I am to a certain time zone.

[410] And also, yeah, it is not necessarily easy to get to wind yourself down that early.

[411] But within six to seven hours, like not a great eight hour sleep.

[412] Uh -huh.

[413] Wow.

[414] I want to observe you really bad.

[415] I want to, like, cohabitate to your Airbnb with you and watch this happen.

[416] It's a thing that I started, I don't even know when.

[417] It's just to retain some degree of control of your day prior to it being someone else's.

[418] Yeah.

[419] And when you go to work, you are on the clock as soon as you get there, and I just would get up early so as to have my own time.

[420] Make coffee not be stressed to be late.

[421] And so that was even a concern.

[422] It's just have a shower, make some food, have some coffee.

[423] You know, I used to smoke.

[424] So I would like smoke a little bit and hang out.

[425] It's kind of like preserving from an emotional and mental state, but also physically your time.

[426] I like it a lot.

[427] And when I'm realizing when you explain it that way is that I kind of do that in the reverse.

[428] Okay.

[429] So when you go, okay, I'm going to wake up at 3 .45.

[430] Odds are you didn't go to bed at 8.

[431] You probably went to bed at 930 or something.

[432] So you kind of go to yourself, you know what?

[433] I'm going to get 7 the night, or I'm going to get six and a half, but I want that time.

[434] I do the thing at night.

[435] So I look at the clock, I'm like, you should go to bed right now.

[436] And I'm like, I have to have an hour and a half where I just do my thing.

[437] Yes.

[438] And I'll eat it on that side.

[439] Okay.

[440] So I guess we're not too far astray.

[441] But mornings are hard.

[442] I mean, I'm impressed.

[443] I am too.

[444] It also helps with that process, too, because if I'm already two hours into the day by the time I'm being picked up, I've done that kind of uncomfortable wake -up process.

[445] Yeah.

[446] Right.

[447] You know, on rings, that was not possible.

[448] We were.

[449] were doing 15, 16 -hour days, and I, on many occasions, and this had never happened before, and it certainly hasn't happened since, would wake up to the lights of the car outside of my home.

[450] Oh, really?

[451] Like, oh, now it's time to, and I would have, like, a two -minute shower and jump in the car.

[452] That was brutal.

[453] Oh, brutal, but also kind of like, because I like getting shot out of a cannon a little bit.

[454] Yeah, totally.

[455] It became so the norm.

[456] We're very adaptable.

[457] Yeah.

[458] And I think you just adapt to whatever that situation is.

[459] If you're getting six hours of sleep a night and you're ultimately just waking up just in time to get in the car, that's just your norm.

[460] I would get coffee when I got to Stone Street and like, okay, now I'm going to stand as they put my feet on.

[461] You know, you just get used to that process because you're all kind of in it together.

[462] You guys, I know you had like a nice four -month kind of ramp up to production starting.

[463] Did you know those guys?

[464] I did not.

[465] I knew no one, no one.

[466] I mean, I met Sean Ashton in a hotel like a couple months before we started because he was going to get his wig fit as I was finishing my wig fitting.

[467] So we like saw each other and embraced like had never met, but I like knew who he was and we like ran up to each other and hugged each other.

[468] Can I ask a quick question?

[469] Sure.

[470] Do you find like Seth, him the handful of kids who've been acting since they were six years old when you meet them, do you feel like you've got like a shorthand to who they are or some connection that you.

[471] You guys both understand each other.

[472] Oh, that's interesting, from having started as a young actor.

[473] Because I got to say, I think it does something very specific to people.

[474] Maybe.

[475] And it's a positive thing from my point of view, but I don't know how you feel about it.

[476] With Seth, it's different, because I knew him at different times of my life, because Seth and his family lived at the Oakwood Apartments, I think, when we had first moved to L .A. You lived there, too.

[477] Yeah, oh, yeah.

[478] And you've seen the complex, the documentary.

[479] I haven't actually seen it.

[480] Is it good?

[481] It's incredibly well done, but I wonder if it would be.

[482] trigger people who lived there.

[483] It feels like there's so many stories to tell.

[484] My impression was that it didn't get deep enough, but I don't know.

[485] Oh, yeah, perhaps.

[486] Because you know, Nirvana lived there during Nevermind.

[487] Oh, they didn't say that.

[488] That's what I'm saying.

[489] I feel like there's so many.

[490] Jennifer Love Hewitt lived there when I was there.

[491] Oh, man. Yeah, it was a very specific story they were telling.

[492] That's what it seemed like.

[493] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[494] And I had always fantasized of the larger.

[495] Maybe you should do it.

[496] I don't know.

[497] That's what someone else.

[498] I don't need to tell that story.

[499] But it's fascinating to me. It is incredibly fascinating.

[500] So before I saw the documentary, and again, just to catch everyone up, there's a very famous set of apartment buildings where generally people coming from different states to audition for pilots and whatnot states.

[501] They're often furnished.

[502] You can get them unfurnished, but they're furnished, which makes it easier.

[503] They're furnished.

[504] They've got breakfast and stuff.

[505] There's a little cafeteria kind of situation.

[506] And there's a convenience store, a little market, a couple of pools.

[507] Yeah, yeah.

[508] That's everything you need.

[509] Yeah.

[510] So my brother worked at one of the convenience stores.

[511] Oh, he did.

[512] Oh, my goodness.

[513] I'd take beer home.

[514] Oh, wow.

[515] Well, so I did a movie with Josh Hutcherson when he was 12 years old, and he was, of course, living there.

[516] And I would go pick him up to take him to Bob's Big Boys on Friday nights because it's like car night, right?

[517] Yeah.

[518] And I just know he fucking loved that place.

[519] Like, I'd pick him up, and he would just be finishing playing with like 20 kids and he loved the breakfast there and stuff.

[520] It's kind of like the lost boys or something there, you know?

[521] All these transplants from different parts of the U .S. kind of in this fantasy land where your neighbors are like right there you're all kind of doing the same stuff I mean I was a little young to have participated in all of that yeah were you just kind of looking at all these kids going like wow these kids are huge I don't think I had any perspective we lived in I think three different units over the course of a year and a half because it's like month to month they bounce you around a little bit I can't remember why we moved but we would like move to different units and I was just young I was like eight years old certainly didn't have the autonomy to, like, run around with a bunch of kids.

[522] I had friends there.

[523] There were definitely hangs for sure.

[524] But I think for the kids who were older, it was probably a more formative experience.

[525] If you were a teenager there or an adolescent, it would have been insane.

[526] It would have been the dream.

[527] You know, like, kind of lawless.

[528] Yes.

[529] Yeah.

[530] It makes me think of, like, when you go to the mall as, like, a 14 -year -old, like, everyone was an option.

[531] Sure.

[532] Like, you were going to chat.

[533] Yeah, so, like, basically, like, living at the mall kind of.

[534] kind of in the 90s.

[535] Kind of crazy.

[536] Oh, my God, I love it so much.

[537] Take it back to Seth.

[538] I had met Seth at different periods of my life.

[539] So when I would see him, I don't know that I identified, oh, he's another person that started quite young.

[540] He's also just in a very emotionally available person.

[541] You get that from Seth as soon as you meet him.

[542] Yes.

[543] So I think that's the way in there.

[544] It's like, oh, he's a lovely person.

[545] I can see that.

[546] That's very clear.

[547] But so, Sean, you weren't necessarily.

[548] And Sean's the same.

[549] And again, I don't know that I identified.

[550] He's another actor that started.

[551] young, 10 years my senior, certainly someone I looked up to and had watched as a kid.

[552] I mean, Goonies was huge, huge.

[553] You've got to be floored you're doing a movie with Goonies.

[554] Totally.

[555] Freaking out.

[556] So I don't know if I've ever had that thing that you're talking about, but I do think that's real, the sort of collective experiences of someone young, not shaping who they are, being able to identify that in someone else.

[557] I do think that there is something of that.

[558] I have found that most actors who started really young that at least I know this is so anecdotal incredibly well spoken like May Whitman Seth I've run out of people but you know I know a ton We had Drew Barrymore on yesterday I think because you are forced to navigate an adult world You really really brushens up Your communication skills I think you get older quicker And not even in a bad way No I think that's true You're just your peers are adults Basically most of your life It shapes who you are without question You do have to be a professional quite young.

[559] I mean, I was a professional working actor at the age of nine.

[560] With lots to do, by the way.

[561] Yeah, leading roles and stuff.

[562] Responsibilities and managing school, whilst also being treated like an adult from the people I was working with, which was kind of amazing.

[563] And, yeah, you learn faster, you grow faster.

[564] That's interesting, the observation about the articulation and vocabulary.

[565] That could be linked.

[566] That makes a lot of sense.

[567] Now, when you did the movie with McCulley, that's probably the first time I find out who Elijah Wood is.

[568] Okay.

[569] How old are you there?

[570] I was 12.

[571] So I'm 17, 18.

[572] Right.

[573] Yeah, so I see that movie.

[574] I want to see.

[575] Yeah.

[576] I'm a McCulley -Col and fit at that point, you know?

[577] Right.

[578] Yeah.

[579] Well, that's what I want to know, because as a little boy, you're virtually doing a movie with like Bert Reynolds in 79.

[580] Yeah.

[581] Right?

[582] No, he was huge.

[583] He's in, like, the rock.

[584] He was the big.

[585] movie star.

[586] Yeah, massive.

[587] And certainly for children, there was no other benchmark.

[588] I mean, that was it.

[589] Yeah, so what thoughts did you have going into that?

[590] Like, you had definitely seen Home Alone and all those things.

[591] Were you excited or intimidated?

[592] So excited.

[593] But there was also, like, a weird awareness of his family.

[594] Like, I remember that being something that already at that time.

[595] Oh, it was in the news that his family.

[596] Or just that there was sort of rumblings that there was discomfort there.

[597] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[598] That was a kind of, it's a curious thing to be aware of that as a kid.

[599] So I was sort of weirdly aware of that on some level.

[600] And did that make you feel compassion for him?

[601] Yeah.

[602] Oh, totally.

[603] Totally.

[604] But at the same time, it wasn't a part of our experience.

[605] We had the best time.

[606] He was professional and lovely and fun, and we had fun as kids working together.

[607] Like, that was an unhindered experience in that regard.

[608] I think excitement about working with someone who had this sort of huge profile as a kid.

[609] Billion dollar run.

[610] And I was a huge fan of Home Alone.

[611] And also, I think the intellectualizing the slightly controversial move of him playing this villain was really fun.

[612] Like, I kind of remember thinking that's really smart.

[613] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[614] This kid who is so lovable and indelible with this certain kind of...

[615] Mixed messages.

[616] Reputation, exactly.

[617] To play on that and to fuck with people's perception was...

[618] I remember thinking that's rad.

[619] I agree with you.

[620] Like, I went into that movie and, well, this kid's got.

[621] be the hero.

[622] He's America's hero.

[623] He's terrifying.

[624] He absolutely is.

[625] Do you have you seen that movie?

[626] No. You've got to see it because a little Elijah boy.

[627] It's scary.

[628] He basically plays a disturbed child and I play his cousin who comes to visit for a sort of winter.

[629] Oh.

[630] And it's this cousin fucking with me the whole movie.

[631] It's a psychological thrill.

[632] It's like the bad seed or that kind of thing.

[633] cool emotionally and mentally disturbed child yeah but here's where the rubber meets the road you go from a collie colkin and you come on and you go who's that other little kid yeah oh my god i remember literally i've had this moment a dozen times in my life maybe less where like you see train spotting you're like who is this guy you and mcgregor holy smokes and that was elisha yeah against uh bert reynolds it was really exciting stuff i like I love Mac as Bert Reynolds.

[634] That's amazing.

[635] And then, of course, he and Seth are best friends.

[636] And he comes back all roads, lead back to Seth.

[637] But again, I always found the fact that those two are really tight to be somewhat anchored in the fact that they were child actors.

[638] Yeah, a point of reference and understanding of each other.

[639] I think also a certain type of growth as well, you know?

[640] I think that might have more to do with it.

[641] Rather than the sort of we have a reference point that we can be familiar with or as common ground, I think that thing of it's shaped who we are and we can relate to each other in that level maybe has more to do with it.

[642] Let me put it this way.

[643] In the 20th century, there were more children that grew up in work camps than grew up on movie sets.

[644] Right.

[645] I mean, you're in a tiniest little pool of people who have shared this very bizarre experience.

[646] Sure.

[647] I don't even need to call it bizarre, unique.

[648] Unique, yeah.

[649] Yes, unique.

[650] So I guess I just feel like, yeah, if you had been in a work camp and you met another kid that had been in a work camp, You'd just kind of be like, oh, yeah, you do this thing.

[651] That's true.

[652] Like, if you would go hang with normal kids and you're talking about movie shit, they're kind of like, they don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[653] But I definitely feel, for me personally, I have also compartmentalized my work and my life.

[654] Sure.

[655] So as I'm actually not interested in talking shop.

[656] Okay, good.

[657] And never really have been.

[658] Great.

[659] Which isn't to say that I don't want to hang out with other actors or enjoy shared experiences because that is a part of all of our collective.

[660] life experience, right?

[661] Yeah.

[662] But I think maybe why I'm not connecting to that notion as much is just simply because I like to hang out a lot of people outside of the industry or people who don't necessarily do what I do because I find that interesting and fascinating.

[663] And by the way, I have no fantasy where you guys are sitting around talking about acting.

[664] Right.

[665] You know what I'm saying?

[666] But I have a fantasy here like the fucking Animal Rangler was drunk and he let the goat loose and, you know, that kind of shit.

[667] Totally.

[668] But I get a lot of that, too, even like New Zealand, for instance, is a huge reference point for me. So knowing that you had an experience there, I could talk to you for hours about New Zealand.

[669] Same.

[670] You know what I mean?

[671] And I don't feel that way about any other place other than Austin, Texas.

[672] Same.

[673] Austin, too.

[674] So I could just talk about Austin forever.

[675] So do you have a connection to Austin?

[676] So I did idiocracy in Austin.

[677] Oh my God, you were in that movie.

[678] In fact, you were there at the exact same time.

[679] You were doing Sin City.

[680] Okay.

[681] We were all at the four seasons, or at least I. I don't know if I saw you, but I saw during that time, Robert Downey was like two doors down for me. Keanu was like four doors down for me. Jessica Alba was hanging out with a bunch because she was there.

[682] Yeah.

[683] Everyone was there.

[684] There was a Linklater movie going on and a Rodriguez movie going on in yours.

[685] And then there was Judge's movie going on.

[686] My God.

[687] What a fruitful time for the film industry in Austin.

[688] The Four Seasons lobby looked like the holding area to go into the Oscars.

[689] Was it like the Sutton Place in Vancouver?

[690] Have you ever been to the Sutton Place?

[691] I haven't, but I've heard great stories.

[692] It's like that common space where like a million productions are happening at the same time.

[693] The Sutton Place is the Oakwood for adults in Canada.

[694] It is.

[695] In Vancouver, it certainly is.

[696] Yeah, right?

[697] Oh, yeah.

[698] Yeah, I do wish, because I know other actors that were stationed there in their 20s on movies.

[699] Stationed.

[700] It sounds like a tour of duties.

[701] It kind of is.

[702] Yeah, and there's so much bed hopping going on between all the actors on these different TV shows, which I absolutely love, because it's kind of what you hope would happen.

[703] But a bunch of young, beautiful people.

[704] It's the stories you want to hear, for sure.

[705] It's like a reality show.

[706] Like, stick them all in this hotel and see what happens.

[707] Yeah, and there's an explosion of a fervor of sexual tension and activity.

[708] Oh, I love it.

[709] Yeah, I'm sad.

[710] I never stayed here.

[711] But Austin, Texas, sorry.

[712] Austin, Texas.

[713] Yeah.

[714] What is happening down there?

[715] People get so mad when we talk about it on the show, too, because they're like, enough fucking people live here, stop talking about how great it is.

[716] But for me, it's the lakes, the barbecue, the liberal hillbillies, yep, grass grown out of the sidewalks.

[717] Yep.

[718] manhole covers each unique and stamped in a different time period.

[719] I mean, I fucking love it.

[720] Yeah, the pools.

[721] In fact, when you and I were both working there in 2004, I guess it would have been, I was looking at houses that were for sale on Lake Austin.

[722] That would have been a good time to buy.

[723] Oh, baby.

[724] You could get a house on two acres, like a 5 ,000 square foot house on two acres for $750.

[725] Fuck, yeah, you could.

[726] And I was like, is this my move?

[727] Like, I'm in an apartment in L .A., one -bedroom apartment, but should I just go all in on Austin?

[728] And fuck, I wish I had done that.

[729] There isn't a house on that lake under $4 million now.

[730] Yeah, that makes sense.

[731] It's a city that really reveals itself to very quickly.

[732] Some cities are elusive, I find.

[733] I find L .A. to be extremely elusive.

[734] It's too spread out.

[735] It's really hard to get your head around it if you're not from here.

[736] Austin, you land, you get to the city, and you're like, oh, I know what this is.

[737] I get a feel for this.

[738] I get a sense of the people.

[739] It feels like a small town, but it has everything I want out of a big city.

[740] It has a huge amount of self -expression.

[741] and identity true unto itself, which is so special and unique.

[742] The food is sick.

[743] So it's just like, it's instant.

[744] Every year I would visit, and I was like, what the fuck?

[745] Why don't I live here?

[746] I did live there for a while.

[747] I had a place for five or six years.

[748] No kidding.

[749] Just south of the river.

[750] So like South First and Mary Street was kind of around where I was.

[751] Bolden Creek.

[752] Barton Springs was literally a four -minute drive for me. Oh, wonderful.

[753] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[754] you dare.

[755] What's up, guys?

[756] This your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[757] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[758] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[759] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[760] And I don't mean just friends.

[761] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[762] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[763] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[764] We've all been there.

[765] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[766] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[767] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[768] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[769] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[770] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[771] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[772] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[773] I have an interesting question.

[774] Wait, I shouldn't congratulate myself on the question.

[775] I have a question.

[776] I'm going to quantify what kind of question this is.

[777] Well, the reason I refer to it as interesting is it's shocking to me. I have never thought of this question before.

[778] So it's a novel question.

[779] Cool.

[780] You're interested to hear the answer to this question.

[781] Big time, big time.

[782] That's what we're saying.

[783] Because here's what I'm wondering.

[784] I'm going to cut that out anyway.

[785] Don't worry.

[786] Yeah, just cut the whole fucking thing.

[787] What do we got about two musical minutes right now?

[788] That Austin part's completely gone.

[789] I'm just kidding.

[790] Soup to nuts.

[791] So here's my question that I can't believe I've never thought to ask a child actor is so much of your youth is, kind of defining your identity.

[792] And when you have such a clear -cut identity from like eight years old, like, I'm an actor, I act, that's what I do, I'm interested in movies, what happens then at like 18?

[793] It's a great question.

[794] Oh my God.

[795] It's a very interesting question.

[796] It is a very interesting question.

[797] Let's just leave it as a question.

[798] I think what you're getting at is at the core of, I think, some of the difficulty that people have navigating life from being a child actor to be an adult actor.

[799] And just being an actor young period is that sense of identity.

[800] Yeah.

[801] Because I often get asked, how did I make it unscathed?

[802] How are you 40 now?

[803] I can attribute to a few things, but one of them that always comes back in my mind is identity.

[804] And from a very young age, for me personally, my mom was really far more concerned with raising me as a good human, and especially being very humble.

[805] She didn't want me to accept special treatment to sort of have any elevated sense of self.

[806] Can I pause you for half a second so people understand?

[807] Because this is relevant.

[808] Often a child is the most important part of this 200 -person endeavor.

[809] And unless a child is dumb, a child realizes that at some point.

[810] Because I watched it.

[811] I've worked with kids.

[812] Yeah.

[813] they can't help but notice like, oh, all these people are here facilitating, like they're going to like that, and they built this, and the prop guy brought this, and blah, blah, blah, and now that was all for me to say this.

[814] There's a reality to their importance there.

[815] That's undeniable.

[816] And unless you're a dumbass, you're going to notice that.

[817] And then so you really need some guidance at that point.

[818] Like, when you recognize I'm the most important part of this whole thing, and not even in an arrogant way, in a reality way, that's a dicey thing to juggle.

[819] kid.

[820] It is.

[821] It totally is.

[822] And it's, I think, quite easy for your sense of self and your identity to be overly attached to what other people are saying you are.

[823] Sure.

[824] How you fit into the greater universe in terms of your public persona.

[825] All of those influence or can define your sense of self.

[826] For me, again, I had a mother who was so, so concerned with me keeping a level head on my shoulders, being really humble, not accepting special treatment.

[827] So it's all these things incrementally that sort of created, I think, a worldview and perspective that grew and I grew into as I got older.

[828] But there was a strong sense of reality and compartmentalizing the work I was doing as an actor and the life that I had on the side of that.

[829] And that defined me as much as what I was doing.

[830] Sure.

[831] And of course, that grows.

[832] Your sense of self continues to evolve.

[833] I certainly didn't have a fully formed sense of self at the age of eight or none.

[834] That's an evolution.

[835] And it was defined by a lot of things.

[836] It was defined by travel and work and being exposed to different kinds of people and different jobs.

[837] Like, I had a very unique child experience and childhood in comparison to what one would call normal.

[838] But it was normal to me. Of course.

[839] You know.

[840] It's the only one you knew.

[841] Yeah.

[842] I think a more specific question that I could have asked was so much of one's life is dedicated to figure out what they're going to do to support themselves.

[843] The future.

[844] Like as a career, right?

[845] So that's such a big chunk of your thoughts, what you're exploring as you leave high school and all this stuff, or you go to college or you get out of college.

[846] So that is an interesting dynamic.

[847] The decision you're going to make at 18, I'd imagine, is like, it's not career -oriented.

[848] Certainly you're going to try to pick good movies and stuff.

[849] But that, you've already established that.

[850] You've been doing that for 10 years.

[851] Yeah.

[852] That is your livelihood.

[853] So that's off the table.

[854] So now it's really just like, who am I going to be in life?

[855] What do I want to explore and see?

[856] Am I into music?

[857] Am I into this?

[858] Like that's really all that's out there that you need to decide at that point.

[859] That's so interesting.

[860] Yeah.

[861] And that's kind of unique.

[862] It is unique.

[863] It distills all those things down to self -definition, not by career and having the stress of figuring out what that career is going to be.

[864] Yeah.

[865] There's certainly stresses with that because there's ebbs and flows to one's individual career, even if you've established that 10 years or 20 years prior or whatever.

[866] It's a brutal fucking business.

[867] You could be Bert Reynolds in 88 You could be Macaulay Culkin, Bert Reynolds That's right Either or Did you have any fantasies of like By the way, I would find this So tempting because of my insecurity So if I had your exact trajectory I think around 18 I'd be going They think I'm dumb Like they think actors are dumb I'm gonna go to Harvard Like I could have seen myself Wanting to prove I was something else I'm gonna really shock these motherfuckers I'm gonna be a doctor I didn't But I definitely, at a certain stage, when I was in high school, had aspirations to go to university.

[868] Okay.

[869] My fantasy was to get into Columbia somehow and live in New York and have that experience and major in English and just have a full collegiate experience in the city.

[870] And that just fascinated me. And I loved New York and loved New York.

[871] And that didn't happen.

[872] I actually did not graduate from high school.

[873] Okay, good for you.

[874] I like that.

[875] I was in homeschool pretty young because public schools weren't super psyched by the fact that I was traveling a lot.

[876] So I ended up doing a correspondence with a school based out of Ohio that was sort of doing that online schooling kind of in its infancy.

[877] Oh my God, at the very beginning.

[878] Yeah.

[879] So I did that and I was traveling and working and I had finished, I think, my junior year.

[880] I had already completed all of my math requirements.

[881] Like I'd completed a lot of the essentials.

[882] the course and my teacher was kind of like you could sort of make your own curriculum for the senior year and I just kind of let it go and it even got to the point I mean bless her she was so lovely she was like how about this let's just write a paper comparing your experience in Lord of the Rings making it to the books and like let that be your giant last thing and then I'll graduate you and I didn't I didn't do it so I got too overwhelmed in New Zealand working And it's just the title, that's all that's left, is like a diploma.

[883] And so I guess it's like, it's evolved to be like, I don't need that.

[884] There were certainly periods of time where I regretted it and wished that I'd gotten a GED just to sort of say, like, I did it.

[885] I get the sort of credit.

[886] You're not missing anything.

[887] That's what I ultimately recognized was that I was getting so much out of life and I was fortunate enough to have a life that afforded me the opportunity to travel and have these experiences that were continually educational and fulfilling that I've I thought, I'm not really missing out on anything.

[888] I couldn't agree more.

[889] You'd be in a social studies class learning about New Zealand?

[890] Or be in New Zealand?

[891] Or be in New Zealand.

[892] How old were you when you got that?

[893] I was 18.

[894] Okay.

[895] So, Kristen and I were watching an interview with you.

[896] I think maybe like a GQ interview you did or something.

[897] You were talking about what you had done to get that role.

[898] Yeah.

[899] Self -taping wasn't really a thing.

[900] He had to go read the script at the casting director's office.

[901] That would have been the ass, yeah.

[902] Yeah.

[903] And then you went and shot your audition, like actually shot it in locations in Griffith Park and stuff.

[904] Yep.

[905] And then went and dropped off this tape, converted it to VHS, down converted from three -quarter probably, to half inch.

[906] VHS, that's crazy.

[907] I know you.

[908] I remember you giggled when you said VHS.

[909] I liked it.

[910] Anyways, Kristen goes.

[911] What's that gum?

[912] Oh, it's nicotine lozenges.

[913] Do you want one?

[914] No, I'm okay.

[915] Former smokers.

[916] 16 years ago, I quit, yeah 16 years.

[917] But I love nicotine.

[918] I'm never ever going to be off of it.

[919] Really?

[920] Oh, you were a smoker?

[921] Yeah.

[922] You've never done any...

[923] 20 years, I was a smoker.

[924] 20 years, good on you.

[925] And your skin is beautiful.

[926] Three years non -smoking come Christmas Eve.

[927] Okay.

[928] And you never have tried.

[929] So I didn't mean the diversity.

[930] Nicotine supplements.

[931] Never did.

[932] I went to a hypnotist.

[933] The first one was not successful.

[934] Like I got home, felt very vulnerable.

[935] Uh -huh.

[936] That, talking about identity.

[937] That was a huge part of my identity.

[938] Couldn't agree more.

[939] And to not have that anymore, that was really jarring.

[940] Yeah.

[941] And I cried, and it was very hard for me. And then I texted the hypnotist, and I said, I think I might need another session.

[942] Like, I don't know this is really working.

[943] I'm smoking and crying.

[944] You're coming back on Monday, and I, like, fished cigarettes out of the bin that had been thrown away.

[945] And ultimately, like, I fell off the wagon, but I was like, fuck it.

[946] I'll just smoke through the weekend.

[947] Yeah.

[948] And then I went to that session and I haven't had a cigarette since.

[949] You're kidding.

[950] Okay, really quick.

[951] How often would you go to 7 -Eleven and buy a pack of cigarettes and pull one out and light it and then throw the pack in the trash can?

[952] You never did that?

[953] You never did it.

[954] We had some herbal cigarettes around the house.

[955] Brown Bear herbs.

[956] The kind of a movie?

[957] Yeah.

[958] Or there's like these companies that almost have like a wellness aspect of it.

[959] Oh, okay.

[960] Which seems a little dubious.

[961] I don't know how healthy any of that is.

[962] I don't know that herbs is.

[963] It's still smoke in your life yet.

[964] But we had to.

[965] some of those because we would sort of smoke those occasionally and so I had like two or three of those just to have that sort of smoke oral experience but it wasn't the same because there's no nicotine yeah and that was it I never never went and bought like and do you feel like there are any skills you had that are now diminished no okay there are patterns that I don't have anymore there are rituals as a smoker you you can relate talk about that morning thing yeah that was a huge part of it and not to have it.

[966] So that first year of quitting was getting used to all of the things that I was used to having a cigarette associated with, not having a cigarette there anymore.

[967] It's like the first international flight, the first cocktail out, like all these little minor moments that had all been defined or had been in conjunction with smoking, suddenly not anymore.

[968] It's a journey.

[969] Yeah.

[970] It's a journey.

[971] So I quit straight up initially.

[972] And then I had sold a pitch and it was getting time to write this fucking script.

[973] And I sat down and I've never once in my life had writer's block.

[974] I'm not someone who has writers block.

[975] Oh, wow.

[976] And I literally was just staring at my computer for like, I don't know, two hours.

[977] Interesting.

[978] And I go, huh, I don't think I can write without nicotine.

[979] And so I said, I'm going to have to smoke.

[980] Like, I got to write this script.

[981] I guess I'll quit when I'm done.

[982] Yeah.

[983] Went to the store to get cigarettes.

[984] And I, and then just thought, you know what, fucking try those lozenges, at least get the lozenges, come back, see if it works.

[985] And if not, go get a pack of cigarettes.

[986] And I did that.

[987] And then I've been on lozenges for whatever 16 years.

[988] Yes.

[989] It unlocked.

[990] Oh, yeah, big time.

[991] Big time.

[992] Incredible.

[993] I mean, whether that's psychosomatic, I mean, obviously, it does have actual effects on your brain.

[994] Sure.

[995] So, but I just, I couldn't write without it.

[996] So I was wondering if there's anything that you like don't do period anymore because of it.

[997] No. No. No. Just loiter at coffee shops.

[998] You don't do anymore.

[999] Yeah.

[1000] Well, it's weird.

[1001] It's funny because it removes you from once.

[1002] Because oftentimes as a smoker, you're told, it's an antisocial drug.

[1003] And I'm I'm like, no, it's so social.

[1004] What are you talking about?

[1005] I am literally smoking with other people.

[1006] It's social for smokers.

[1007] So what I found kind of freeing, one of the liberating aspects of it was I could now engage in conversations that I kept taking myself out of.

[1008] Right, that's so true.

[1009] Because you would have that sort of like a tapping on your shoulder all the time every 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes.

[1010] Yeah, go outside.

[1011] And you'd go outside and I would remove myself from a conversation every time.

[1012] And now I found, oh, I don't have to do that anymore.

[1013] I don't have to go outside for anything.

[1014] Well, quite often you'll be like if New York or something and you're looking outside and it's fucking 10 degrees out there and people are just choking back darts and I'm like, oh my God, thank God I don't do that.

[1015] Oh my God.

[1016] Yeah.

[1017] Yeah, it's torture.

[1018] I still envy it.

[1019] I still walk around people.

[1020] To me if it rains, those are the only days where I'm like, fucking hey, I want to drive around a car with the window cracked.

[1021] So cozy.

[1022] Oh my God, the coziest.

[1023] Yeah, really cozy.

[1024] Let's go grab a pack of the fucking camel lights and see what's happening.

[1025] They don't even have my brain.

[1026] anymore, I don't think.

[1027] What was your brand?

[1028] Camel light.

[1029] Oh, it was camel.

[1030] Yeah, I loved it.

[1031] How about you?

[1032] Ultimately landed on American Spirit, orange, the sort of ultralights.

[1033] Yeah, okay.

[1034] Yeah.

[1035] Don't say American Spears.

[1036] I mean, if you're going to smoke a, I don't know, they would, less tar and chemicals.

[1037] There's less chemicals in it.

[1038] But people always, they would smoke that, and they would be very proud that it has less chemicals, and I'd be like, you're fucking smoking, man. Get some camels.

[1039] So get the full flavor, get a camel on it.

[1040] What are we talking about?

[1041] Amazing.

[1042] Like half having sex or something Just fucking go for it It was a flavor thing for me too You did like that flavor I just didn't like those American spirits Yeah they burnt weird too They burnt slow That means you're outside like enjoying that shit That's true That's true Wasn't quick your smoke break was long Because I gotta finish this That's true But sometimes I fucking line up too That won't stop me That's true Yeah two to your one How many were you smoking a day A pack a day Sure On average That's where you should be that's kind of the sweet spot yeah yeah like you'd read stories like I think watching hearts of darkness which I made Monica watch oh it's incredible what a doc oh my god fascinating in a weird way it's better than the movie but the movie's great but that doc is everything well the story of making sometimes sometimes is better than the thing that it yields especially that for sure so yeah you had Martin Sheen reportedly smoking four packs a day and when you do the math you're basically like you're lit the whole day you're just fucking that Because on like a day of getting close to two packs, I was done and feeling it the next day, you know?

[1043] Well, right.

[1044] If you get hammered, I would put back a pack and a half from like 9 o 'clock till 2 in the morning.

[1045] And I wake up in the morning and be like, I mean, it's terrible.

[1046] He had a heart attack.

[1047] He did.

[1048] He had a heart attack in his 40s.

[1049] He did.

[1050] On the movie.

[1051] On the film.

[1052] And the person in the dock, the person who's on the phone reporting that the heart attack had taken place to Coppola is one of our producers on Lord of the Rings.

[1053] Oh, really?

[1054] Yeah, one of our producers on Rings was working on Apocalypse Now, and I can't remember to what capacity.

[1055] Like, he was someone's assistant, he wasn't a producer yet.

[1056] Right, he was the guy reporting when heart attacks happened on set.

[1057] And he called him, and I feel like the response was like he dies when I tell him to die or something.

[1058] It was a crazy response.

[1059] He had lost perspective.

[1060] Oh, everybody had.

[1061] I think maybe my first thing, favorite part of that documentary is like it's just chaos right so they're in the philippines there's a fucking typhoon they've like working with the military but the military's also got some military operations in the middle of shots they're performing oh my god it's just chaos the fucking lead actors had a heart attack you got a 15 year old Lawrence oh oh fishburn yeah oh my god yeah was he a 15 year old kid down there like smoking hashish and go into prostitutes i mean it's it's a circus yeah the movie gets shut down because of this typhoon cut to they're in napa valley it's like a Fitzgerald party like everyone's dressed to the guilds they're at Coppola's winery and you're like they just left that jungle now they're hearing this like kind of crazy Fitzgerald party it's kind of like in the redux when they go to the French villa and they have that like wine and cheese and that's surreal like they've left the jungle and the nightmare and they're in this like unrealistic oasis yes that's what it felt like they're all panicked everything's in a shit shambles it's ruined my God and they have this beautiful outdoor party and everyone's happy as hell I love it regroup okay so I was wondering yes I've way laid us with the cigarette thing no you didn't I just curious no you didn't no you didn't the number one question people I was like what is Elijah smoking routine and now we know now we know okay so here's what it appeared happened from my perspective you did Lord of the Rings and then I feel like I notice you're like you know what that's a lot I'm gonna go do independent stuff I'm gonna do small stuff.

[1062] And I was wondering, at least on paper, that's what happened.

[1063] You kind of redirected into some more smaller movies with artistic directors and whatnot.

[1064] Sure.

[1065] Was that decision driven by anything in particular?

[1066] Kind of.

[1067] I think at the onset, when Rings was first coming out, and certainly once the first movie had come out and was as successful as it was, I think to combat whatever potential typecasting that could occur, it's all in theory at that stage.

[1068] Sure.

[1069] I thought, Well, as long as I continue working on things that are really different, and I think my impulse was, yes, let's do something super tiny.

[1070] Just both in contrast to the experience I just had in a way, like I remember it was a movie called Ash Wednesday, the very first thing I did.

[1071] Is that an Irish movie?

[1072] It was.

[1073] It was Ed Burns.

[1074] Filmmaker, writer, actor, incredible.

[1075] He had this film that was like partially scripted, but it was also, there was an improvisational element to it, I think, as well if I remember correctly.

[1076] Yes, another Irish American story, and it was a tiny commitment.

[1077] Like, I think the bulk of my work was in a week and a half.

[1078] Oh my gosh.

[1079] It was a tiny, tiny thing.

[1080] Yeah.

[1081] And I thought, incredible.

[1082] Like, there's not going to be a long makeup process.

[1083] I'm in and out.

[1084] It's in New York.

[1085] I get to work with this director and writer who I really admire and just on this, like, barest of bare bones productions.

[1086] And that was thrilling to me because it was such a contrast, because I was also, I think, physically and emotionally and psychically exhausted by 16 months of Lord of the Rings.

[1087] It was the greatest experience of my life, but it was also like, who, coming out of that was exhausting.

[1088] So it was initially like, yeah, I want to work on something tiny, something very different.

[1089] And then it was just, I knew that as long as I continued to work and work on things that were different, I was going to avoid this sort of, or at least hopefully avoid that over -association with rings.

[1090] So then it just became wanting to work on things that I care about and found interesting.

[1091] It wasn't a response to that level of fame.

[1092] Not really.

[1093] It wasn't.

[1094] No, it was more just wanting to continue to work and to keep working on things that were quite different as a means of just challenging myself, but also keeping my career going, so that I wasn't just sort of doing the one thing, I guess.

[1095] Right.

[1096] But no, it wasn't really a size thing.

[1097] Because I think had something come along that was on a studio level or was on a larger scale, I would have been open to that.

[1098] I don't think that I was eschewing studio films to just simply take an independent power.

[1099] Okay, right.

[1100] Although it clearly looks that way.

[1101] But you did have the goal of maintaining your career.

[1102] Yeah.

[1103] So then you end up in, God, I don't want to say, it's not my favorite movie, but it's the only movie that makes me cry, which is Eternal Sunshine.

[1104] Oh, I love that film.

[1105] What a fucking movie.

[1106] Oh, I love that film so much.

[1107] And in fact, I think that's where I came up with that opinion.

[1108] I think I saw you there.

[1109] I was like, oh, this guy was just the lead of the biggest movie ever made.

[1110] And now he's in this movie.

[1111] This is fantastic.

[1112] I wonder why.

[1113] Right.

[1114] Well, for me, like, I'll never forget, speaking to my then agent on the phone, she called and she said, I have a script here that's a Charlie Kaufman script that Michelle Gondry is going to direct.

[1115] And I remember the impulse was to, like, pull over.

[1116] I was like, what the fuck?

[1117] I don't even, I feel like I don't even need to read it.

[1118] Let me just, I'll do anything for them.

[1119] I agree.

[1120] Yeah.

[1121] I feel like that is a perfect reflection of where my head was, which is just, I'm moved by exciting artists.

[1122] And Kaufman, I'd seen everything he'd done at that stage.

[1123] Yeah.

[1124] Loved his writing.

[1125] Most exciting writer in that time period.

[1126] Incredible.

[1127] Still, I think, one of the greatest screenwriters of all time, certainly from perspective of having a voice that is uniquely entirely his own.

[1128] And then Michelle Gondry from music videos, and they had made a movie before together, and I'd seen that.

[1129] What one was that?

[1130] Human nature.

[1131] Oh, yeah.

[1132] Yeah, I saw that.

[1133] Patricia Arquette's in that?

[1134] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1135] It's great.

[1136] It's super fun and weird.

[1137] Big time weird.

[1138] And so just like, that was such a galvanizing moment of like, I just want to work on weird art with people that I think are incredible and that I admire.

[1139] And that's such a good example of that.

[1140] Yeah, so what was the vibe on a Michelle Gondry movie?

[1141] I bumped into him one time.

[1142] I was with Will Arnette.

[1143] He's French.

[1144] Yeah, he's fine.

[1145] And he came up to Will Arnette and he was like, oh my god let's go to prison this movie is the greatest movie ever this terrible well it's not terrible but whatever tiny movie will and i made for two million dollars about us being in prison and either he is the best actor in the world or by god he really loved that fucking movie and will and i walked away going like how how could that be the thing he loves let's go to prison anyways i love that but yeah he just seems like a very whimsical playful fun is and it was times feeling unsettled i remember the first week.

[1146] Not knowing when he was rolling was pretty common.

[1147] Sure, sure.

[1148] So you sort of were like a little unsteady on your feet in a kind of wonderful way if you like accepted that.

[1149] And he would just play with stuff.

[1150] Like I remember scenes he would come up to me and Mark Ruffalo and say, okay, I'm not telling Kirsten this, but you guys are just going to laugh the whole time.

[1151] So don't say any of your dialogue.

[1152] Oh, wow.

[1153] She's going to try and keep the scene alive, but you guys just laugh.

[1154] Let's see what And that would happen all the time.

[1155] Like a lot of deconstructionist stuff.

[1156] Yeah.

[1157] And really wild fun ideas.

[1158] But also his inventiveness, a lot of what you see on screen is in camera.

[1159] So a lot of the trickery, we didn't have to rely so much on CG.

[1160] It was a lot of in camera weirdness and inventive creations.

[1161] He was really known at that time for having sort of almost homemade aesthetic.

[1162] Yeah.

[1163] A lot of his music videos were all homemade.

[1164] So he carried that with him in the production design.

[1165] And so you're seeing the whimsy of that.

[1166] And that.

[1167] There's a childlike.

[1168] And the creation of it happened in front of you, and it was just a joy.

[1169] We were all, like, enthused to be working with this kind of weird French maestro.

[1170] Yeah, the low fineness of it all kind of really anchored it in childhood.

[1171] Totally.

[1172] Yeah.

[1173] Yeah, man, that movie, boy, I fucking, John Bryan.

[1174] Oh, my God, the score is so good.

[1175] And Jim Carrey is so good in the film.

[1176] He's so fucking good in it.

[1177] And so good.

[1178] Yeah, Kate Winslet, the cast was just insane.

[1179] And I think everybody felt.

[1180] Yeah, crazy.

[1181] Be tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1182] I just now remembered, because you said music video director, you want to hear one of the most exciting little tidbits about Elijah's career?

[1183] Always.

[1184] He was in a Paula Abdul video.

[1185] That's not the headline.

[1186] Okay.

[1187] Who directed that video, Elijah?

[1188] It was directed by David Fincher.

[1189] No. A David Fischer, Paula Abdul?

[1190] Well, he started in music videos and advertising prior to directing.

[1191] That is crazy.

[1192] Yeah, he was an incredible music video director.

[1193] Was he still, was he doing what he does now, which is like 400 takes?

[1194] I feel like I would have remembered that as a kid.

[1195] I don't remember there being a crazy amount of takes.

[1196] Wow.

[1197] Do you remember him at all?

[1198] I don't remember him.

[1199] Yeah.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] I don't remember her.

[1202] I remember the set.

[1203] I remember a lot of these sort of elements are clear in my memory, but I don't remember him, no. Wow.

[1204] I met with him years and years.

[1205] years and years and years ago, and we briefly sort of mentioned that.

[1206] Touched on that?

[1207] Yeah, yeah.

[1208] That's pretty good.

[1209] That is great.

[1210] What a fun thing to share.

[1211] I know.

[1212] He lives around here.

[1213] Does he?

[1214] He's incredible.

[1215] What a...

[1216] Oh, my God.

[1217] I couldn't be in one of his things.

[1218] Mind you, he'd never hire me. But I love watching it.

[1219] I know.

[1220] And I don't have a hard time being a part of something so meticulous because it's just against my nature.

[1221] I like that.

[1222] Yeah, I could see you like that.

[1223] I like it.

[1224] I think it's funny because I think sometimes...

[1225] I've spoken to actors who have worked on films directed by people with a very heavy hand or a meticulous way of shooting.

[1226] And their response was, I didn't have autonomy.

[1227] I didn't feel like I had my space to do my thing because it was so rigid.

[1228] I kind of love that, though.

[1229] Interesting.

[1230] I love space to work, but I also like rigidity if it's in service of something that I think is going to be great.

[1231] Yeah.

[1232] And if I'm inserting myself and my parameters are tight, I'll work within those parameters.

[1233] If I can understand where the vision's going and I can see it and that's exciting, fuck yeah.

[1234] I think that's interesting.

[1235] It's almost like at its highest level, it's like physical ADR or something.

[1236] Yeah, again, and I can't stand ADR.

[1237] I love ADR.

[1238] I know.

[1239] Because I like the technicality of it.

[1240] I think it's technical and I get off on the rhythm of it and the precision and the precision.

[1241] I find that fun.

[1242] Are you OCD at all?

[1243] Minorly.

[1244] Minorly.

[1245] Yeah.

[1246] Okay.

[1247] Minerly.

[1248] Because aesthetically, you're very put together.

[1249] You're very tight.

[1250] You're very in shape.

[1251] Your skin is very clear.

[1252] The white of your eyes is fucking intimidating.

[1253] Dax is really impressed by whites of eyes.

[1254] I'm obsessed with it.

[1255] Lights of eyes specifically.

[1256] It's a thing.

[1257] Yeah.

[1258] Yeah.

[1259] Yeah.

[1260] Yeah.

[1261] Yeah.

[1262] But maybe you like that because it's something achievable.

[1263] Like in this industry, you don't have very much of that.

[1264] It's like acting.

[1265] is so subjective and like maybe I did a good job, maybe I didn't do a good job, maybe it was real, maybe it wasn't.

[1266] I still go through that.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] Oh yeah.

[1269] All the time.

[1270] In like an ADR session, if you do it perfectly, you're like, I did it.

[1271] You know it.

[1272] You know it.

[1273] It matches perfectly.

[1274] That's a really good analogy.

[1275] I think you're right.

[1276] Yeah.

[1277] I think you're right.

[1278] And I do love that feeling of ADR specifically of like.

[1279] You want something definitive.

[1280] The challenge, knowing what I have to do, working within that and doing it.

[1281] Yeah.

[1282] So people are definitively knowing that it was successful yeah i should have said this right at the beginning aDR is when you something has gone wrong with the audio on the day you were filming so they bring you in they showed the scene up on a big screen and you literally have to match perfectly your mouth moving and resay the lines which i have all kinds of objections to one i'm not even there with the other actor yeah like i'm in a fucking yeah the conditions are not i could have done the whole movie in a telephone booth is that how important you want to hear something fucked up tell me lord of the rings every line dialogue.

[1283] Every single word spoken in Lord of the Rings.

[1284] We shot, we recorded audio and our onset audio was great.

[1285] Our team was incredible, but we always knew, and I didn't know this during production, but once we started our ADR, it was like, oh, fuck, we're doing everything.

[1286] They shot guide track because of how many elements that were uncontrollable.

[1287] For instance.

[1288] The wind and wind and water.

[1289] Wind water.

[1290] Any SFX elements that were making noise on set.

[1291] Motion controlled cameras made noise, whining noise.

[1292] The iteration of Stone Street Studios at that time was they weren't soundproofed.

[1293] Okay.

[1294] So it was an old paint factory with tin roofs.

[1295] So if it rained, that was loud.

[1296] That was our spot too, by the way.

[1297] Right.

[1298] Yeah, yeah.

[1299] So it was just all these outside elements that they knew they didn't have control over, that they were like, we'll just shoot with the best audio we can get.

[1300] And it was great.

[1301] Sure.

[1302] But I think for continuity purposes, there may have been scenes that were absolutely salvageable and perfect.

[1303] But they no longer would have matched the sound of the...

[1304] From a continuity perspective, they just did everything.

[1305] But I have to say, it turned into a new artistic process because we were able to look at our performances and kind of go, okay, that's it.

[1306] You almost get a rewrite.

[1307] Which was lovely.

[1308] I kind of loved that.

[1309] I mean, it's a little masochistic because you're just hour upon hour because in addition to the dialogue, you're also just doing all the breaths and the efforts and that, you know.

[1310] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1311] Oh, my God, it had to be weeks of ADR.

[1312] For everything?

[1313] Yeah, yeah.

[1314] Yeah, oh, my goodness.

[1315] Oh, my God.

[1316] But for each actor is probably a number of days for everything, for each film.

[1317] I remember I was on the show, Parenthood.

[1318] My character had been estranged from his fiancé.

[1319] They're dealing with this.

[1320] They share a kid.

[1321] And then she asks him to marry her at some point.

[1322] They finally get back together after seasons of keeping us apart.

[1323] And there's a rain machine.

[1324] And I literally, my first thought is like, we're going to do this, I'm going to feel this, and we're not going to hear a goddamn thing.

[1325] And I'm going and say all this into a microphone, like the scene about love and unrequainted and finally rejoining, stuff that just happened.

[1326] Yeah.

[1327] I can't do that on command.

[1328] I need joy.

[1329] I need the whole thing.

[1330] That is the challenge.

[1331] That is the real, real challenge.

[1332] It's hard.

[1333] That shit's hard.

[1334] I don't want to make light of it.

[1335] It's when you have to get to an emotional place and recreate an emotional.

[1336] It feels basketball.

[1337] Because so much of what you're getting, you're right, is happening in front of you and energy in the moment on the day.

[1338] Yeah.

[1339] Because in that physicality, and that is a very hard thing to recreate.

[1340] And to your point where, in yours as well, which is we've all left second going like, I don't know if I gave them what they needed.

[1341] Happens all the time.

[1342] Happens all the time.

[1343] I've also left going like, I was great.

[1344] And then I was average.

[1345] So my worst scenes are sometimes my best, blah, blah, blah.

[1346] Sure.

[1347] That scene, I was like, I left.

[1348] You were already resenting it midway.

[1349] Yeah.

[1350] fuck this it's not gonna matter we're also about like 150 feet from that overlook at universal onto the 101 so it's just like this most important then you say like in the fucking rain machine and it's so brutal but anyway I drove home that day you know going like that was a beautiful scene man I really glad that turned out the way it did and I felt all the things and she felt all the things and then I'm like you know and then I got to go fake it yeah I had to do the whole fucking thing I'm surprised you weren't like I'm not doing it Oh, I tried that route.

[1351] Yeah, you know me. I will say that what you're doing, the expression you're making, the choices you're making physically, that's all preserved.

[1352] Yeah.

[1353] It's just getting the nuance of the voice to fit, right, you know, and match it.

[1354] And look, my wife, I watched her do ADR and it's maddening.

[1355] I mean, they'll do another.

[1356] Is she just a machine?

[1357] She's a robot.

[1358] She's an acting robot in general.

[1359] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1360] I can see that about her.

[1361] And she'll literally go, show me once.

[1362] And then she does it.

[1363] Absolutely perfect, and they're like, I guess we should do a second for safety, but every second is for safety.

[1364] She doesn't ever need a second one.

[1365] I love it.

[1366] It's like a precision drummer that can, like, actually overdub.

[1367] You hear that about Dave Grohl.

[1368] He can actually overdub drums, which is a really hard thing to do.

[1369] So if you do a drum track, to actually play that again on top of that drum track, exactly hitting it at the same time.

[1370] That's like a robotic thing.

[1371] He can do it.

[1372] He double tracks his drums.

[1373] Wow.

[1374] It's the equivalent of having perfect.

[1375] pitch.

[1376] Right.

[1377] Yeah.

[1378] Do you play the drums?

[1379] I mess around with drums.

[1380] Hey, me too.

[1381] I mess around with a lot of instruments.

[1382] It's kind of one of the great, not great regrets of my life.

[1383] I don't have a lot of regrets, but one of them is I never took an instrument and stuck with it.

[1384] Right.

[1385] It's like I played piano when I was young at various times took lessons, but I got bored with practicing or whatever it was.

[1386] I think I just wanted to play was always my thing.

[1387] I was impatient.

[1388] Of course.

[1389] Yeah.

[1390] And so I stopped and I never took guitar lessons.

[1391] So it's like I love music.

[1392] I have an ear.

[1393] I have an ear.

[1394] I I think for it, so I can mess around, but I can't play anything well.

[1395] This is identical.

[1396] So I played the guitar at a two.

[1397] I've been playing it for 20 years.

[1398] I refuse to take a lesson.

[1399] You can self -teach, and I just haven't gone far enough.

[1400] You know, I can play some songs.

[1401] I can play Sweet Home Alabama.

[1402] I can fucking, I can fuck around and make melodies to myself.

[1403] More than I can.

[1404] Okay, so I consider myself a two on the guitar, and I'm a four drummer.

[1405] Do you have a set at home?

[1406] Downs right below us is a beautiful DW kit.

[1407] Yeah.

[1408] Yeah, you, you consider.

[1409] would be welcome and invited to bang around on.

[1410] Thanks.

[1411] How did you end up having...

[1412] Wait, well, quick, Colin.

[1413] Do you sing?

[1414] I think I can hold a tune, but not well.

[1415] I have terrible range.

[1416] Like, I think I have a real...

[1417] There's like a sweet spot that works, but beyond that high, I can't.

[1418] So it's...

[1419] But I think musical people are better at ADR.

[1420] Oh, well, Kristen, in particular.

[1421] I think you're right, because it's rhythmic.

[1422] It's matching tone.

[1423] Like, I think it's the same part of your brain.

[1424] that retrieves sound in a musical way.

[1425] I think you're right, because it is musicality, especially if you're recreating the line exactly as you said it and not changing it because you're having to fit the rhythm of it and the musicality of it.

[1426] It's like singing.

[1427] It's like singing a line out of a song.

[1428] This just reminded me, you said you saw idiocracy?

[1429] Yeah, oh, yeah, I love that.

[1430] So the studio was like, this is unacceptable, his character.

[1431] Like, what is he doing?

[1432] Like, me, my character.

[1433] What's that speech impediment he has?

[1434] You know, like, this is so distracting.

[1435] why the movie's testing so terribly.

[1436] They were convinced it was all mean.

[1437] And I believed them.

[1438] I was like, that was new line, right?

[1439] Was that?

[1440] Was it new line?

[1441] It was Fox.

[1442] It was Fox, okay.

[1443] Yeah.

[1444] Because I remember there was a lot of controversy about that movie.

[1445] There sure was.

[1446] There's conspiracy theories and everything.

[1447] But at some moment, it just sat on a shelf for like two years maybe.

[1448] I don't remember.

[1449] Yeah.

[1450] And so at one point, they're like, you got to fix this, Mike.

[1451] So Mike, he's like, they don't want you to redo all the dialogue.

[1452] They're going to make us try this.

[1453] So I was like, okay, so I went in.

[1454] in there, man. It's good, Mike, Judge.

[1455] Docs, do you want to go get some eggs?

[1456] He would call me occasionally.

[1457] It was wonderful.

[1458] But I go in there, man, and I start, there's nothing without that crazy voice I'm doing.

[1459] And we did about an hour of it.

[1460] And I looked at him.

[1461] I was like, I don't know how you feel about it.

[1462] But this is about the worst moment.

[1463] I had a show business.

[1464] He's like, yeah, it's terrible.

[1465] Okay, so we tried.

[1466] And then we just laughed.

[1467] We tried.

[1468] And it was ridiculous.

[1469] Because you're doing your normal voice.

[1470] Yeah.

[1471] I'm like, oh, you like, money i like money too go away baiting oh god are you kidding me can you imagine if that's what the character was doing oh my god yeah so i love that you tried it and that you both were like only because of mike judge i promised you like had it been anyone else who i wasn't in love with i would have been like fire me or sue me or whatever but there's no way i'm going to try to unravel that character i barely did it the first time i'm not going to try to whatever amazing yeah so that was one of my adr experiences that's a good one your new movie you play an FBI agent, it is...

[1472] No man of God.

[1473] No man of God.

[1474] Is it on a streaming?

[1475] It is now on streaming platforms, yeah.

[1476] It is because I think I saw it.

[1477] It's for rental.

[1478] It's for rental, great.

[1479] Like iTunes or whatever.

[1480] Yeah, so I haven't called iTunes anymore.

[1481] It's Apple TV.

[1482] I call it iTunes.

[1483] I still do.

[1484] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1485] I like it.

[1486] Put it on your iPod and watch it.

[1487] Right?

[1488] Oh, iPods, I miss iPods.

[1489] I know.

[1490] My daughter has one in it.

[1491] She calls it her iPhone.

[1492] An iPod classic or the one with the screen?

[1493] It looks like an iPhone, but it's not.

[1494] But she can text on it though It has Wi -Fi The old school iPods I rejected the iPod With the screen because to me That was just an iPhone Without the phone The cellular feature Well that's what she's got Yeah Don't tell her that Yeah she thinks she's got a phone Right She tells all of her buddies How old your daughter?

[1495] It's a phone eight Yeah yeah She tells them that she's got a phone And then they're like That's an iPod She's like flummoxed At the same She doesn't have like a backup Why for that That's amazing Yeah I still think it's a shame They discontinued I know.

[1496] I do love that old, like heavy as fuck, tons of metal.

[1497] It's great.

[1498] I just want a music device.

[1499] I don't need my music device to take photos or to have apps.

[1500] I just need music.

[1501] I have them all.

[1502] I've got like four or five generations of iPod.

[1503] Oh, wow.

[1504] Oh, you can have them all.

[1505] Yeah, yeah.

[1506] I have too many of those things too.

[1507] I've gotten rid of some of them.

[1508] It's nice to like, when you're exercising, I just hate when I'm like on a run and I'm listening to music and then my texts are coming in and I really want to check it, but I feel like it's stressful.

[1509] It's too much.

[1510] Too much.

[1511] I'm going to find you an old iPod that somehow will still allow you to download music onto it.

[1512] Okay, great.

[1513] How did this movie come about?

[1514] Again, I could be wrong, but to me, from the outside, it seems like you're in the catbird seat because you've done these huge movies.

[1515] You're probably financially solvent, and you kind of dance around to what you want a bit, no?

[1516] Are you still neurotic about longevity?

[1517] I wouldn't say I'm neurotic about it.

[1518] Yeah, that was not a nice word to use.

[1519] Because you haven't proven yourself to be neurotic even earlier.

[1520] Or concerned about it.

[1521] I don't take anything for granted.

[1522] Right.

[1523] I think I still know that I need to continue to work to continue to work.

[1524] Right.

[1525] But this is sort of a crossroads, this film.

[1526] I'm a producer on it too.

[1527] So my life with this movie, my relationship to it, for four years, was trying to get it made as a producer, not as an actor.

[1528] Right.

[1529] So that started six years, five, six years ago, actually in Austin, funnily enough, at fantastic fest.

[1530] The writer of the screenplay was sitting down, knew that my producing partners and I were making genre movies with Spectrevision, our company.

[1531] At that point, I think we'd made A Girl Walks Home Alone at night.

[1532] I don't think we'd made Mandy yet.

[1533] That was sort of the milieu of the kinds of movies that we like were genre movies.

[1534] And so he was like, I guarantee you're going to love this, but I've written this script about Ted Bundy and his relationship to Bill Hagmire, this FBI profiler.

[1535] And it's largely based on audio transcripts.

[1536] And it's mainly their conversations.

[1537] And they were like, what?

[1538] That sounds incredible.

[1539] Yeah.

[1540] Are those publicly available?

[1541] Are they like Freedom of Information Act kind of stuff?

[1542] No. No. But you've heard that.

[1543] Have you heard them?

[1544] I've heard interviews.

[1545] I don't know that I've heard the like audio of those conversations.

[1546] I've heard audio interviews with Bill Hagmeyer talking at nauseam about all of that and his relationship to Bundy in a great detail.

[1547] And then a ton of Bundy stuff.

[1548] So like in the film there are interviews with.

[1549] other investigators looking to get answers from various states to find where some of Bundy's victims might be.

[1550] There is actual audio of that, and I've heard that stuff.

[1551] So some of that's in the film.

[1552] The movie kind of starts, if I'm correct, Bundy's already on death row.

[1553] Yes.

[1554] And you're trying to hopefully find out if there's more victims and if so, where their bodies are and whatnot.

[1555] That's sort of part of it.

[1556] The FBI had started this profiling division.

[1557] The movie sort of addresses that.

[1558] It was in its infancy.

[1559] It was just starting.

[1560] Is this the similar story to Manhunter?

[1561] MindHunter.

[1562] Mindcraft.

[1563] Yeah.

[1564] Yeah.

[1565] Yeah.

[1566] Okay.

[1567] It's the same idea because that deal with a lot of the same folks.

[1568] It was very new.

[1569] Yeah.

[1570] Oh my God.

[1571] Ding, Ding, Fincher.

[1572] Right.

[1573] So what they, Paul Abdul.

[1574] It all goes back to Fincher.

[1575] In establishing the profiling division, they were trying to get at what made these people tick, both serial killers, child molesters, serial rapists, people that were re -offending, what was happening to them psychologically, what made them who they are, and if we gather all this data with these interviews, can we be better equipped to stop it from happening, identify it quicker, all these sorts of things?

[1576] Yeah, potentially treat, I imagine.

[1577] Yeah, exactly.

[1578] So Bill was sort of one of these guys at the beginning of this initiative, and various people, they had the option to take whoever criminal they wanted, and he opted for Ted.

[1579] And what made that unique was that Ted had a pretty serious reputation for not trusting law enforcement, specifically FBI, and that fat chance.

[1580] Like, good luck with that, Bill.

[1581] Like, he's not going to talk.

[1582] So he went down to Florida.

[1583] He exchanged letters with him initially.

[1584] And there was an interest on Ted's part to meet.

[1585] So they arranged a meeting.

[1586] Bill subsequently, and I talked to Bill a little bit about this, kind of what went into the planning.

[1587] Like, how do you prepare for that?

[1588] What are you feeling when you walk into that room?

[1589] And ultimately, what goes into the preparation, especially knowing what you know about him and his relationship to law enforcement, you have sort of everything against you at that moment.

[1590] Sure, you're starting a pretty big hole.

[1591] Yeah.

[1592] Yeah.

[1593] He spoke to a lot of investigators and people who did not have good times with him or that he didn't trust them and just gathered a lot of information.

[1594] What not to do?

[1595] Yes, sort of.

[1596] And built kind of a sense of who he was and what he was walking into to kind of emotionally and intellectually prepare for it.

[1597] This sounds so fun.

[1598] This sounds like the ultimate interview you got to prepare for.

[1599] Oh, God.

[1600] Yeah.

[1601] Like how not to trigger this person.

[1602] Massively.

[1603] Yeah, yeah.

[1604] And so that went reasonably well.

[1605] What was this unique approach?

[1606] If I'm to sort of define Bill's kind of greatest strength, I think it's that.

[1607] He genuinely doesn't walk in with judgment.

[1608] Right.

[1609] So that person feels seen on some level.

[1610] Sure.

[1611] As a human, rather than this person coming in with an agenda or certainly judgment of what they've done.

[1612] and a mind made up about who they are.

[1613] And I think he walks in with an openness.

[1614] Curiosity and curiosity and a genuine sense of wanting to understand.

[1615] He's an anthropologist.

[1616] And I think he makes that very clear and that's very disarming.

[1617] It worked time and time again.

[1618] He is a sort of genius in his field.

[1619] His reputation is extraordinary.

[1620] And subsequently, after Bundy, people reached out, like, requested him.

[1621] Oh, wow.

[1622] Because of his success with Bundy and the fact that Bundy Well, people looked up to him, right.

[1623] And it really changed the course of his career in a pretty profound way.

[1624] And how complicated did it get for him?

[1625] Like, we interviewed one of the lawyers who represented the Epstein victims in Florida.

[1626] Right.

[1627] And I said, like, did you ever hang with Epstein?

[1628] He's like, yeah, I had like several lunches with him.

[1629] Whoa.

[1630] And he is a fucking charming guy.

[1631] and you'd have to kind of like regularly check yourself like oh yeah this person's a monster jokes you know he's a likable human being or our friend david ferrier he went down and he interviewed in columbia a pablo askervar's main hit man pa pa pa he's kid like 300 people killed his wife the guy's fucking likable and he's sitting there laughing it up and then he just blurt's out he's like it's so weird to be laughing with you you killed your girlfriend it's just complicated did he have any of those kind of i think so i think that was a part of that i think it's complicated.

[1632] I don't know that Bill would have considered or say that now that he was friends with Ted.

[1633] Right.

[1634] But there was an exchange.

[1635] There was a human exchange that was unavoidable.

[1636] And I think did he feel something for him as one human to another human?

[1637] I think he had to.

[1638] You spend that kind of time with someone.

[1639] What starts to strip away is the sort of architecture of the monster that we are told that person is, and certainly is in terms of what he did.

[1640] But that's too easy, by the way.

[1641] It is.

[1642] And you separate what someone does from who they are because it's not the whole picture.

[1643] It's not everything.

[1644] And I'm not giving a ton of space to Ted to be sort of appreciated as the human.

[1645] He was a fucking nightmare.

[1646] And a narcissist and deeply, deeply flawed.

[1647] I think he was also a psychopath, a sociopath.

[1648] Sure, all the paths.

[1649] He was putting on a skin of a human.

[1650] But he was also human too.

[1651] Uh -huh, uh -huh.

[1652] Not literally.

[1653] That was other serial killers.

[1654] Well, that's the other great mystery.

[1655] Or that's not a mystery, but I guess it's counterintuitive.

[1656] which is they say, we use this word empathy as just a catch -all euphemism for kindness, but true empathy, the ability to imagine what another person is experiencing and then play to that is a uniquely strong gift of sociopaths.

[1657] They're the most empathetic because they know exactly what you want to hear.

[1658] Yeah, that's really fascinating.

[1659] Yeah, so I can play that role and play to your expectations better.

[1660] Yeah, they know exactly what you want to hear.

[1661] And so in that respect, I could imagine sitting down with Ted Bundy and him being, like, incredibly intuitive and charming.

[1662] Yeah.

[1663] Because how the fuck else did he lure all these people?

[1664] Yeah.

[1665] I don't want to give away the end of the movie, but it yielded results.

[1666] Did the FBI agent feel like he achieved some things?

[1667] There were some results in terms of information.

[1668] Right.

[1669] Probably more in the profiling than in the number of bodies.

[1670] Bodies that he would cop to.

[1671] Right.

[1672] Look, Ted was desperately trying to hang on to anything that could.

[1673] stay his execution and at the end that became withholding information.

[1674] That was his leverage.

[1675] It was believed in his mind that was it.

[1676] Like if it was believed that he had the key to where all these people were and more and I can be helpful to other cases too.

[1677] They'll keep me alive.

[1678] And he was doing that right up into the end.

[1679] But he did give some information away.

[1680] But the sheer like estimated breadth of that, I think it far outweighs what he admitted to.

[1681] That's the popular opinion.

[1682] And globally, just theoretically, do you think we can understand?

[1683] I don't know that we can understand that.

[1684] I think we can intellectually imagine it.

[1685] I don't think we can understand it.

[1686] I don't think we can put ourselves in that place because we are not capable of thinking that way.

[1687] But I think we can kind of go, I understand what it might mean to think that way.

[1688] Yeah, yeah.

[1689] I just wonder if that's knowable.

[1690] Like, truly.

[1691] Like someone who has the desire to kill 40 people I don't know that we'll figure out what gene it is we could turn off or what I don't know I wonder It's just so out there But I also think it's a combination of so many things I don't actually think it's psychopathy on its own Or it's sociopathy I think it's it is literally Those making you susceptible To not feeling regret Not feeling sorry And being able to kill and not feel anything Yeah, that's wild, yeah.

[1692] We can identify those things, I think, but in terms of...

[1693] I'm saying causality more.

[1694] But that's the thing.

[1695] I think it's a combination of having the unique sort of brain defect that makes it possible.

[1696] Yeah.

[1697] Because there's plenty of psychopaths that don't kill people.

[1698] Right.

[1699] True.

[1700] And then a series of other elements in your life, childhood, various markers that sort of drive you to that place.

[1701] Yeah.

[1702] He blamed it on pornography.

[1703] Oh, okay.

[1704] Well, we would have roughly 200 million.

[1705] serial killers in the U .S. We've landed on specific, yeah, totally.

[1706] Again, it's a combination.

[1707] I think it really is a combination of so many things.

[1708] We never will know.

[1709] Well, here's my explanation.

[1710] There's seven billion humans.

[1711] And guess what?

[1712] A handful of them are going to be fucking incomprehensible.

[1713] Yeah.

[1714] They're what they do, what they think.

[1715] There's seven billion of us.

[1716] When you think of how evolution works and a mutation might end up yielding some kind of reproductive advantage, of seven billion that's a mutation he's a mutation of someone who thinks he should kill everyone around him or whatever it is yeah but i think it's it all falls under similar mental health issues as schizophrenia like we know less about the human brain than we do about space yeah sure sure sure yeah that's staggering yeah and we're still discovering you know yeah we just had Andrew Huberman who runs the Stanford lab on neuroplasticity.

[1717] Whoa.

[1718] And so like we are inching towards, right, like marrying psychoanalysis and what's actually physically happening in the brain.

[1719] And it's really kind of exciting because like you really had your story taking place in 15 years.

[1720] We might be able to hook Ted Bundy up to a machine and talk to him and actually get some kind of like flare ups of where physiology that's happening.

[1721] That's so interesting.

[1722] So fascinating.

[1723] But it's also ultimate, I mean, it is a puzzle, just a horrible puzzle that comes together because it's also so much about control and power.

[1724] And they're environmental elements that lead people to want that and need that.

[1725] Yeah, so it's so many.

[1726] I think with him with a lot of insecurity, sense of place in the world.

[1727] He's the real handsome one, though.

[1728] What's that?

[1729] He's the real handsome one.

[1730] Ted Bundy, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1731] I think deep -rooted issues with women clearly.

[1732] Clearly.

[1733] Power issues there, too.

[1734] But I think that was compensating for what he felt he wasn't.

[1735] There's a big theory.

[1736] And I don't know, of course, he always denied it and addressed it as being bullshit.

[1737] But before he started killing people, I'm pretty sure the timeline works out, he had a relationship with a woman who was kind of above his station a little, a little bit more successful, financially solid, higher education, right?

[1738] So just a few rungs up the ladder above him, social standing, and so on and so forth.

[1739] And he was in love with her.

[1740] And that relationship ended.

[1741] She left him.

[1742] And a lot of people theorized that he was heartbroken.

[1743] He then ended up going about fixing his life, I think, a little bit, and got back together with her and dropped her.

[1744] Like as an act of back, as an act of revenge.

[1745] And a lot of people theorized that that.

[1746] relationship was the sort of crux or the straw that broke the camel's back in regards to that feeling of like I need to overpower I felt less than I was heartbroken it's maybe too simple honestly but it probably did have something to do I don't think it's too simple this is happening all over the place this is like the shooters who write the manifestos and the in cells that's what they're called right like there's a whole grouping of men who do feel insecure and like women owe them affection I don't know it's such a strange thing but it's a lot of places yeah well I'm lucky I didn't kill any people when I broke up with Kate we're really lucky you didn't kill any yeah yeah we're so lucky you didn't kill any tipping point where I could have gone into serial killing I want to tell people because a lot of people probably won't know but one of the greatest Hollywood stories of all time is Lord of the Rings in that Lord of the Rings had been bought by another studio.

[1747] They were not making the movie.

[1748] They invested, I think, a couple million dollars in development funds.

[1749] Yes.

[1750] And they were not going to make it.

[1751] It seemed, it was Miramax.

[1752] Meramex.

[1753] And so one of the producers, I guess, said we would like the movie back.

[1754] We would like it in Turnaround, as they say.

[1755] And Meramex said, we will only give it back to you in Turnaround under two things have to happen.

[1756] One, we're giving you this weekend.

[1757] You have to go get it set up this weekend.

[1758] The window of time was insane.

[1759] Yeah, it was like two or three days.

[1760] Something I thought, yeah.

[1761] And whoever makes it has to agree to make all three at once.

[1762] The backstory a little bit is that they shopped it around town.

[1763] Peter had, I think they'd made a sort of pitch video, a sizzle or something.

[1764] It's pretty impressive.

[1765] Taken into a variety of places.

[1766] Miramax were the ones to bite.

[1767] Most people were balking at the notion of doing more than one film.

[1768] And certainly the notion of doing one movie and not waiting to see how it did.

[1769] That was the popular opinion was like, no, you've got to see how it does.

[1770] And then you invest the rest of your money.

[1771] Of course.

[1772] Miramax was like, we'll do two.

[1773] And they were like, okay.

[1774] And then they ultimately reneged on it.

[1775] And I can't remember why.

[1776] But they were like, we can do up to two, but that was it.

[1777] And then that didn't really go anywhere.

[1778] And then, yeah, it was brought up to, like, then Peter was like, can we have our movie back?

[1779] Like, we want to shop it around.

[1780] And ultimately, New Line, which isn't a huge studio at that time, they fucking risk that entire.

[1781] studio on that movie and they did agree that weekend okay we'll make all three and we'll take it over and we'll pay them back to two i think peter flew out here and sat down with bob shay and everyone at new line and i think the lore is that they were coming with two and it was bob shay that said we have to do three oh which is insane if i remember correctly but yeah incredible risk this impossible errand they sent them out on yeah they did which is crazy and miramax there was no chance in hell that they would do it and Miramax people don't know is the wine steams but at that time it was probably already owned by Disney nope it wasn't it that was Bob and Harvey oh wow oh yeah that worked out can you imagine this interview could be so different I could be asking if you had to it's funny actually and this was recently spoken about a little on because Dom and Bill have a podcast for friendship onion Dom and Billy were two of the hobbits in the film Marion Pippin and they were just talking about they were talking with Sean Aston about how his first memory of getting to New Zealand for the first time and he had seen these orc masks and one of the orc masks and I remember this vividly was designed to look like Carpy WineShare.

[1782] No way!

[1783] As a sort of...

[1784] Fuck you.

[1785] Oh wow.

[1786] I think it's okay to talk about that now.

[1787] The guy's in prison.

[1788] The guy's fucking incarcerated.

[1789] Yeah.

[1790] Oh, Kim.

[1791] Wow.

[1792] Yeah, someone will be making another movie about some FBI guy is going to go talk to him in person.

[1793] Yeah, that's what's a head for him.

[1794] We don't need to give that man anymore.

[1795] Exactly.

[1796] We already know.

[1797] Yep.

[1798] Going back to the process of identifying yourself as a young person and growing up in this, I think as I got older, I was also just conscious of like, I'm going to stick to certain spots, but also not engage with other things.

[1799] You know what I mean?

[1800] Sure.

[1801] Consciously.

[1802] It's hard to do as a young kid, I think.

[1803] As a kid, I think I had the benefit of growing up in this.

[1804] But by the time I was an adult to be able to go to those places, I had already sort of formulated who I was and what I was about and what I wasn't about.

[1805] Well, I'm going to add one piece of good luck that came your way, which was the thing that made you an international sensation, was an experience shared with many other people.

[1806] Yes.

[1807] That's huge.

[1808] If you're Iron Man, you know, or if you're the guy, you're so right.

[1809] Your mind can run away from you a little bit.

[1810] But you all were there together.

[1811] You're all promoting it together.

[1812] Yep.

[1813] Yeah.

[1814] And we shared in that experience releasing the films.

[1815] We traveled together.

[1816] Yeah.

[1817] No one was bearing that.

[1818] entirely on their shoulders.

[1819] Yeah, and it can keep you humble because everyone's getting fucking popular.

[1820] Oh, you're popular too?

[1821] Yeah, I am too.

[1822] I guess we're all popular now.

[1823] It's not that exciting.

[1824] Right, right.

[1825] It's lovely to be a part of an ensemble in that regard.

[1826] Yes, yes, yes, it is.

[1827] Well, Elijah, this has been so much fun.

[1828] This has been great.

[1829] Yeah, those eyes.

[1830] Do you have a eye care routine you could let me in ours?

[1831] I don't.

[1832] I mean, I wear contacts for vision.

[1833] Okay.

[1834] Maybe I should get those.

[1835] Do you put any drops for the whites?

[1836] No. Are you drinking a lot of water?

[1837] Not enough.

[1838] Oh, my God.

[1839] I don't, I don't hydrate.

[1840] I'm a terrible water drinker.

[1841] Fucking Monica's eyes are really white too, and this bitch makes a fucking glass of water once a week.

[1842] Maybe that's the key.

[1843] Yeah, let's just stay dehydrated.

[1844] Mix your eyes very white.

[1845] Elijah, this was really fun.

[1846] It's really fun.

[1847] And you further substantiate my stereotype about young actors who are very articulate.

[1848] Yeah, very well -spoken.

[1849] I know, that's what's so funny.

[1850] It's like there's this stereotype about, I mean, and I know why, but none of the ones we've talked to, everyone's like extra special.

[1851] We should try to get a hold of some of the duds.

[1852] I bet they're amazing too.

[1853] Yeah.

[1854] Like the people that we put in the category of, oh, child actors, they've gone crazy.

[1855] They're probably cool.

[1856] Well, the one thing I will say, because I'm from, well, I don't know exactly where in Iowa you're from or what the vibe was like, but I'm from kind of very working.

[1857] class area, a suburb of Detroit.

[1858] And when I was doing this movie as a thorough with Josh Hutcherson and Jonah Bobo, and Jonah Bobo was, he was like you.

[1859] He was just a fiend.

[1860] Just beautiful, fucking brilliant improvving child.

[1861] Like, he was so special.

[1862] And his parents were very protective in a great way.

[1863] They're from New York.

[1864] They live in Roosevelt Island.

[1865] And I just fell in love with this kid, Jonah.

[1866] He was just so good.

[1867] I would just theorize with the mom.

[1868] I'm like, I understand that you're concerned and you should be, and this is a very tricky road to navigate, but this kid, like, is so special.

[1869] I would just hate to think he would be somewhere where this level of specialness wouldn't be appreciated.

[1870] Right.

[1871] So in some weird way, like, it's such a great home for certain types of kids.

[1872] Like, I don't know how you would have done in Iowa, but I feel like this was a really good place for you.

[1873] It was a good place for me. Yeah, yeah.

[1874] For Jonah to be in a place where being sensitive was, like, rewarded and cherished.

[1875] in nurtured.

[1876] So awesome.

[1877] Yep.

[1878] You know?

[1879] And I relate to that.

[1880] Yeah.

[1881] I definitely relate to that.

[1882] Like your performance in that movie, the good son, like, it's beautiful and emotionally available.

[1883] And you're, that's not a good look when you're eight where I grew up.

[1884] Right.

[1885] So, right.

[1886] Or 10.

[1887] So I think in some weird way, it's like a very special thing to be able to be encouraged to be emotional, celebrated for being emotional and sensitive and all these things.

[1888] I agree.

[1889] Vulnerability being an attribute that is celebrated, which often.

[1890] time, especially as a man, is...

[1891] The thing you're trying to rid yourself up.

[1892] Yes, indeed.

[1893] Absolutely.

[1894] And that's something I've always related.

[1895] Have you heard that great Brené Brown sort of vulnerability TED talk that she does?

[1896] We interviewed her.

[1897] Did you?

[1898] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1899] And I've been on her podcast too.

[1900] Oh, amazing.

[1901] She lives in Austin.

[1902] She should.

[1903] Yeah.

[1904] Well, she lives in Houston, but she has a place on Lake Travis.

[1905] Okay.

[1906] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1907] I got the whole deeds.

[1908] And if you want her address.

[1909] She's a professor in Houston.

[1910] Oh, right.

[1911] I think still.

[1912] All right.

[1913] Wonderful meeting you.

[1914] you as well.

[1915] Good luck with the movie.

[1916] It is available for streaming now and it is called No Man of God.

[1917] Check it out.

[1918] Buy it tonight and get freaky.

[1919] Thank you, Elijah.

[1920] Thank you.

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[1924] way.