382 - Under Underpants

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] To my favorite murder.

[2] That is Georgia Hard Star.

[3] And that is Karen Kilgariff, of all people.

[4] And we are here to tell you some bad news.

[5] Oh, shit.

[6] Yeah.

[7] You thought things were bad right now in the news.

[8] Wait, till you get a load of what we have to share with you.

[9] Take a dip into this, more bad, and maybe perhaps way worse things.

[10] Yeah, dip your toe in the cesspool.

[11] of true crime.

[12] Quick side note, though, of all the horrifying things that are happening in the news, and there are many positives that...

[13] Yes.

[14] After all this time, it's very nice to see.

[15] Always.

[16] The one thing I really am in love with, I'm sure you've heard about it, is the Orca's, the Orca Uprising?

[17] That's not what I thought you were going to say.

[18] What do you...

[19] Oh, the one that they're, like, fighting all the boats and shit and, like, causing wreaking havoc.

[20] They're gathering along coastlines.

[21] There's 30 of them.

[22] We're in Monterey.

[23] Bay for what the media called No Reason.

[24] It's like, what are you guys about to do?

[25] Oh, my God.

[26] And like, they're thinking it's revenge because when Orca got killed, right, by a boat for some reason?

[27] Either killed or injured by the rudder.

[28] So they started knocking the rudders off of boats, but then they were sinking them as well.

[29] So.

[30] How terrifying to be on like a little.

[31] dinky ship, I mean, to begin with, that's scary.

[32] Did you see the fucking huge, like, humpback whales swallow two fucking kayakers?

[33] There's video of it.

[34] They're fine, by the way.

[35] But, like, a legit, like, cartoon.

[36] Are they fine?

[37] Yes.

[38] And they were, like, they actually say, like, in the article that I read pro, there was, like, it was our fault.

[39] We got too close to where they were feeding.

[40] Like, oops.

[41] Lesson Lord.

[42] Like, they were very cool around it.

[43] I'm like, yeah.

[44] Yeah.

[45] You know.

[46] But it's such a cartoon of them, like, gulp.

[47] in like putting one in their mouth and like pulling bones out only.

[48] It's just...

[49] Did they say what it was like in there?

[50] They said it was so quick because they got knocked out of the mouth.

[51] Oh.

[52] The video looks like they went into the mouth and I guess they did, but they said it was such a quick thing that happened that they didn't even like think about it.

[53] Unfortunately, we all wanted it out, yeah.

[54] They didn't have time to light a cartoon candle and look around and see who else was in there.

[55] Light a thing at TNT to like make the...

[56] to make him open his mouth and spit him out.

[57] Yep.

[58] I mean, so many things could have been done in there.

[59] That makes a lot of sense.

[60] I think you wouldn't want to have a memory of being in a whale's mouth.

[61] No. That would wake you up at night, maybe, for a couple weeks.

[62] The thing I thought you were going to say in the news, that was, like, amazing, were the four children who saw, who fucking survived a plane crash and survived in the Amazon jungle by themselves for 40 days.

[63] 40 days.

[64] 40 days.

[65] Like, they're straight up, like, the Israelites over here.

[66] Saving the...

[67] Are they the ones that saved the oil for a really long time?

[68] That's a different.

[69] Yes, but that's the Hanukkah.

[70] 40 days and 40 nights is how long they trampled through the desert.

[71] Oh, that's right.

[72] Yeah.

[73] But the children, like, there was a baby.

[74] It was, like, baby to 13 years old.

[75] And that 13 -year -old needs a fucking medal.

[76] And they survived.

[77] That 13 -year -old is going to be the bossiest older brother or sister for the rest of their lives.

[78] It's like...

[79] Saved your ass.

[80] Yeah, do what I say.

[81] Go get me ice cream for real.

[82] But, you know, somebody sent me that on Twitter like a little while ago, but in this, I was like, oh my God, this is amazing.

[83] And then they were like, they cannot confirm if the children are alive or not yet.

[84] Like they heard the story of that a rescue team had gone in, but they could not, the media couldn't confirm it.

[85] So then people started sending it to me when it was actually the official store And I was like, thank God.

[86] That's some Jessica down a well shit right there where you're just like holding your breath.

[87] 40 fucking days in the Amazon.

[88] I want to know what they ate.

[89] And also like the baby would cry.

[90] And then what, jaguars would come around?

[91] Yeah, but also like, let's not get into the sad stuff.

[92] But yeah, it's total jaguars.

[93] What?

[94] You know, like the parents were dead in the plane crash.

[95] They had like a walk away from the plane seat, right?

[96] Which I hasn't said that, don't you?

[97] Well, you know, that's plane crashes.

[98] That's the nature of, it's like every story that we've ever told that's like this is like the person that wakes up and they're the only person that survived a plane crash.

[99] Because that's, so does that mean four children from one family survived a plane crash by themselves?

[100] Like they were the only survivors?

[101] I think they were from one family because the grandma, I guess, was like, they'll be fine.

[102] I've taught them how to survive.

[103] Like, I think she was just like, they're going to be fine.

[104] Like knew it already.

[105] They were going to survive.

[106] I know.

[107] She had her finger on the pulse.

[108] She was like, mm -hmm.

[109] They know what berries to eat, you know?

[110] Now I want to know what berries to eat.

[111] We have to learn what berries to eat.

[112] Like, we need to know these things.

[113] It's important.

[114] Not that I go in the fucking nature ever, but like, you never know.

[115] You never know when you drop out of the sky into nature.

[116] That's right.

[117] That's when you really know what berries you need to be eating.

[118] You don't need to know that stuff until you need to know that stuff.

[119] Until you're not planning to have to know it and are forced into knowing.

[120] So many things in life are like that.

[121] I was going to say we can't eat bright red berries, but I think actually that's bugs.

[122] Listen, anyone who's like a fucking horticulturist or what else, what kind of doctor would be know about that stuff?

[123] A jungle biologist.

[124] If there's like a rhyme that's like, the red ones are good, the blue ones are bad, the ones will, you know, make you.

[125] you go, sane, don't eat those.

[126] But, like, better than that.

[127] You had it.

[128] It was just, you just needed to rhyme the word bad.

[129] I know, it felt too easy.

[130] And I just, you know, it was right there.

[131] So, like, I guess.

[132] Also, it's like, what if this whole time blueberries have been poisonous?

[133] We're just like, fuck.

[134] I eat those all the time.

[135] What if we started spreading the rumor that blueberries were poisonous?

[136] Just be happy.

[137] Yeah.

[138] Just the zeitgeist.

[139] Yeah.

[140] It just takes like one TikTok to send that around.

[141] I'm like, guys, I need to de -influence blueberries.

[142] They're actually poison.

[143] It takes one true crime podcast who has their finger on the pulse.

[144] Yep.

[145] And here we are.

[146] Send the word.

[147] Send the word about fruit.

[148] What else?

[149] What else is in the news, ladies and gentlemen?

[150] That was a tangent.

[151] That really was.

[152] But I'm glad you brought that story up because I was, that was kind of a cliffhank.

[153] or for me from the original, I was just like, please don't let that.

[154] Please don't let me never hear about this again.

[155] That's worst case scenario.

[156] I have a recommendation for, do you want a movie or do you want a book?

[157] Let's start with a book.

[158] Okay, the book is called Push Off from Here by Laura McCowan.

[159] And she wrote the book, We Are the Luckiest, which talks about her adventures in addiction and recovery from alcohol.

[160] And so this is her new book that kind of gives you some building blocks for when you're trying to get sober, which I think a lot of us always are and always will be.

[161] It's called Push Off from Here, Nine Essential Truths to Get You Through Sobriety and Everything Else.

[162] So it's not just about alcohol.

[163] It's about life.

[164] And it's just such a beautiful book.

[165] And I love the idea of push off from here where it's like, okay, things might be bad, you might have made bad decisions, you think it's over, you think you're a failure, or you think you're a loser.

[166] all those things we think about at 3 o 'clock in the morning.

[167] But you can push off from here and like right now can be the old story and whatever you decide to do from here on out is the new story.

[168] And I just, that's always an opportunity to push off from right there.

[169] I love that.

[170] Yeah, that's great.

[171] I love that mindset stuff.

[172] It really all, it's just like choosing to have a certain mindset, although that in and of itself is difficult, you know, a lot of habits.

[173] But ultimately it is, you know, it's something that kind of goes.

[174] hand in hand with that that I saw on TikTok, of course.

[175] If you are feeling any kind of like frustration, irritation, that kind of feeling that gets into your, under your skin type of feeling, that you feel like it's kind of growing and it might affect your behavior, you just get up and do a kind of a little bit of a diagonal lean and push against a wall as hard as you can for like 30 seconds.

[176] Yes, my therapist has totally told me to do that before.

[177] It completely, it works.

[178] in the weirdest way, because it's almost like actually physically feeling the emotional feeling and then just being done with it once you're done with it.

[179] Because you do need a release at that point.

[180] It's the same way that animals shake themselves off after they've been chased by a lion or whatever.

[181] So you still need that physical release and that's what that does.

[182] Like same with like screaming into a fucking pillow or whatever.

[183] You know, it's a release.

[184] I love that.

[185] Yeah.

[186] Yeah.

[187] It's like in your muscles.

[188] There's chemicals in your muscles that you need to be feeling.

[189] having in your bloodstream and that a little flexing will do it sometimes also you know i've bookmarked so many like so many like kettlebells lifts and all these you should see the fucking bookmark section of my too it's all someday you're going to start stretching every day that's basically what the idea is the routine that i have is so unbelievable someday watch out i'm going to be the most flexible fucking person on the planet once i start doing this routine.

[190] Just not right now.

[191] Not right now.

[192] Like, I'm busy.

[193] There's a lot going on.

[194] You know one thing my therapist did say to me today that I, I, along the lines of like the mindfulness mindset, you know, where it's like it doesn't have to be perfect right now.

[195] The fact that you're trying to change it changes it, the action of just trying, changes it.

[196] Yeah.

[197] If you're stressed out, if there's a decision to make, if you're talking to yourself bad, what decision or what would a person who loves themselves do in this moment?

[198] and that's where you come from instead of what am I going to do?

[199] It's like, what would someone who loves me or loves themselves right now do?

[200] Do you have that information at hand?

[201] Well, you can think of it, right?

[202] You don't even know.

[203] You don't even know where to start on that one.

[204] Who I literally can't think of one person.

[205] Okay, what about someone you?

[206] Wait, who loves themselves or who loves you?

[207] Who loves themselves?

[208] Like the ideal of like, got it, you know, because I think there's a lot of, you know, of like looking in the mirror and, you know, like blowing yourself a kiss and shit that is empty.

[209] It's an empty thing.

[210] It's very difficult to love this thing that you've been walking around inside of.

[211] Critical love for so fucking long.

[212] And to let go of that history and to let go of like those, the old mistakes.

[213] Let me tell you, okay, let me rephrase that.

[214] What would Gwyneth Paltrow do?

[215] She's literally the only human being in the entire.

[216] entire fucking world who likes herself.

[217] She would make a salad of gem lettuces and edible flowers and just a really a nice light vinaigret on top.

[218] You know, I have to say, I really enjoyed that skiing accident, courtroom drama that kind of played on social media.

[219] It was really, there was no one to root for.

[220] And so then you're kind of rooting for the Gwenath, the anti -hero.

[221] You are.

[222] Like, you are.

[223] Like, she's like, what is he doing?

[224] You know what I mean?

[225] Like, he, someone, someone, a celebrity skied into him and he's like, paid it.

[226] And her on the way out whispering, what was it?

[227] I wish you well or whatever.

[228] She said, um, goop promo code 20 % off.

[229] I'm right to do with you.

[230] Oh my God.

[231] Epic, iconic.

[232] I actually didn't watch that.

[233] So if that guy was truly some.

[234] legit victim, I apologize.

[235] I didn't get that feeling, but whatever.

[236] It didn't come off that way, really in any direction.

[237] What do you got for me?

[238] It's literally, did I say this last time, my gum surgery update that my periodontas said my gums look beautiful?

[239] I think I said it already.

[240] I've never heard that before.

[241] I'm really happy to hear that.

[242] I had to go for like the whatever month checkup.

[243] And I was a little worried because I think I put it off for an extra month.

[244] I could go on vacation.

[245] I was like, I'm not going, going there before.

[246] And so then I was scared to get bad news or like, don't eat pasta or they were going to tell you some.

[247] Or just like, we did all this work and then you're just, you're doing exactly the same thing, which I'm not.

[248] I've been so good about not just flossing.

[249] Here's what I have for you.

[250] Because you enjoy oral health, I believe.

[251] It's kind of my thing.

[252] For what I know.

[253] I do.

[254] Have you ever used those little, they almost look like pipe cleaners, but they're tiny.

[255] and you shove them in between and your little gaps.

[256] My dad carries one around with him everywhere we go and uses it.

[257] He got gaps like me. Yeah, I had them too.

[258] Because when you have gaps, you have to kind of get stuff out of.

[259] They're so like, it's just the best feeling because sometimes floss is just like a little painful, but these are almost like precise tools of cleaning your teeth.

[260] Yeah.

[261] So you're not at water pick yet, but you're at like one step above flossing.

[262] I have a water pick.

[263] Do you?

[264] But I think, oh yeah, I used to use it all the time.

[265] Then my gums got really bad and it was very painful.

[266] Like you'd go the one wrong way and be like, oh my God.

[267] But I haven't come all the way back to the water pick.

[268] Yeah.

[269] You know what I have?

[270] You know what they sell?

[271] It's basically a water pick.

[272] So it's just like, you know, blah blah, blah machine.

[273] But it's for cleaning out your nasal.

[274] Like it's like a nebby pot.

[275] Oh.

[276] But it's like electronically charged.

[277] So it's like double time on those nasal cavity.

[278] It is.

[279] It's the best feeling you ever fucking had.

[280] And do you use that when you have like allergies and stuff?

[281] Yeah, I think if you have like bad allergies every night to clean out your nasal.

[282] Oh.

[283] So this is a true crime comedy podcast.

[284] But we like to touch into health, wellness, personal problems, and orchids.

[285] You shouldn't believe how many dental assistants and dental students we have listening right now.

[286] So this is for them.

[287] Thank you for your service.

[288] Thank you.

[289] Great job, team.

[290] Good job, guys.

[291] Used to not be a fan of you guys.

[292] But now I am.

[293] I've learned my lesson.

[294] I'm in every six months, girl.

[295] I have to go.

[296] Because when my dad, the mom and dad divorced, his like, I'm going to take over this thing.

[297] Dad move was orthodontics and dentistry.

[298] He was just like, that's going to be my corner where I can show that I'm not an absentee father.

[299] And so like I'm not going to throw that away.

[300] You know what I mean?

[301] So then he was just like, you got to do it.

[302] Here's what we're doing.

[303] He was, like, on plan with it.

[304] Yeah, my daddy issues are about dental hygiene and orthodontics, which I'll take.

[305] There could be so many worse ones, you know?

[306] Hell yes.

[307] Hell yes.

[308] No, Marty, I, Marty did a great job.

[309] Thank you, Marty.

[310] Marty.

[311] My dad just used to yell, you got to clean your pickets down the hallway out of us.

[312] Your pickets?

[313] Clean those pickets.

[314] Yeah.

[315] That's what he called.

[316] Like a little picket fence?

[317] Yeah, that's cute.

[318] Well, they didn't divorce, so he didn't have to give a shit about it.

[319] that's right he could just he he was always there every three to four days depending on the shift he was on for the firehouse right he should have just put a firehouse in your face every couple days now it'll work kids get in the backyard we're going to get deep clean our gums all right should we do some exactly right network highlight notes let's do it okay hey this week on exactly right our podcast network kate winkler dawson is back with the third season of her true crime talk show.

[320] Wicked Words.

[321] Every Monday, Kate interviews journalists, podcasters, and authors about their most intriguing cases.

[322] And as you guys know, when we do these stories here on this podcast, we use these people's incredible deep dives and all the work that they have put in to this, you know, one case that means so much to them.

[323] And these are interviews with those fucking people.

[324] So it's just wonderful.

[325] And it's interviewed by Kate Winkler -Dawson, one of the most legit people in true crime to date, like a historian and a journalist, and she's done it all.

[326] So those conversations are really cool and, yeah, basically feature the people that make our job possible.

[327] It's great.

[328] Totally.

[329] Okay, so over on I Said No Gifts, Bridgers joined by siblings and comedians, Vanessa and Jonah Bayer.

[330] And then on I Saw What You Did, this week, Millie and Danielle's double feature is the movie Monsoon Wedding from 2001 and then Midnight Express from 1978.

[331] So what are the two movies have in common, you'll find out when you listen to I Saw What You Did.

[332] It's definitely smuggling heroin.

[333] I'm positive.

[334] In honor of summertime, over on the MFM store, we're featuring the restocked Stay Out of the Forest Tank Top and some other tops and tanks and teas celebrating the season.

[335] So go celebrate summer and check those out.

[336] I have a stay out of the Forest Tank Top that I just adore.

[337] It's so soft.

[338] I used to try to make fun of you for wearing armor.

[339] But it really is charming.

[340] Like, it's like you really are a believer in us.

[341] Vince wears his, too.

[342] Wins wears we watch wrestling merch all the time.

[343] But he also wears my favorite murder merch all the time.

[344] Does he?

[345] Yeah.

[346] And I have like a, we watch wrestling fanny pack that I wear when I'm walking cookie.

[347] It's like a whole thing.

[348] You know?

[349] You know what I think?

[350] I think that is a perfect example of the line of delineation between a millennial and Gen Xers.

[351] Because my generation, if you did that, you would be beaten in.

[352] into the ground, either physically or emotionally.

[353] I gotta stop you.

[354] Vince was born in 75.

[355] Was he really?

[356] Yeah.

[357] So he's a fucking straight -up Gen X. He's just proud, I think.

[358] He's proud.

[359] He's a true booster.

[360] He's a fan of things.

[361] He's a big fan of things.

[362] It's really fun to watch.

[363] It's a great way to live.

[364] He like goes to baseball games and shit, even if it's like not his team.

[365] And like, he doesn't even want a hot dog.

[366] He just fucking goes.

[367] It's crazy.

[368] There's a study, and the reason that people are so, like, some people are so keyed into and kind of fervent about their political affiliation and, like, can't let go of it is a thing that humans need and love, and it's called evervessence.

[369] And it means, like, when you're in a group of like -minded people, you begin to have the same experience, and, like, you are all kind of connecting with this singular experience.

[370] Wow.

[371] And the perfect example, and the example they used when I was.

[372] learning about it, is going to a concert, and it immediately made me think events where I was like, that's why he loves it so much.

[373] It's like tapping into that thing.

[374] It's his people and everyone's stoked to be there and like you can get involved somehow.

[375] Yeah.

[376] You feel like a part of things.

[377] That's why our live shows are so fun.

[378] It's like a bunch of people who actually are like on board going, yeah, we're all here together.

[379] Yeah, I thought you were to say that's why our lives are so sad, is that we don't have that.

[380] Like, reading a book doesn't give you that same effervescence.

[381] Now, watching the 90s version of Pride and Prejudice again doesn't, Karen, give you that effervescence.

[382] Well, it does a little bit.

[383] What if we both try to find one thing that, like, where we can get that effervescence from?

[384] Okay, but it has to be outside, right?

[385] Well, you have to have left the house or invited people over.

[386] So your game nights could totally be that, I feel like.

[387] Oh, right, right, right.

[388] You know, that's good.

[389] But I think that idea of, like, the crowd feeling.

[390] Yeah.

[391] Is the one I like the most.

[392] All right.

[393] I'll look into it.

[394] I don't like being in crowds, but I like that feeling when it's happening.

[395] I saw a meme that was like a group of humans, and it's like a photo of like a crowd at like, you know, a concert or over.

[396] A group of humans is called a fuck that.

[397] Which I know.

[398] Very funny.

[399] That's right.

[400] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[401] Absolutely.

[402] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[403] Exactly.

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[420] Goodbye.

[421] Okay.

[422] All right.

[423] Well, I'm first.

[424] Enough of this, chit -cha.

[425] We've effervesced enough at the top of this show.

[426] We've just effervesce all over this show.

[427] I'm going to tell you a mysterious unsolved crumption.

[428] like I love to do.

[429] Let's hear it.

[430] This is the 1960s Lake Summit Triple Murders.

[431] So most of the sources used in today's episode were written by North Carolina journalist Jenny Jones Giles, who did a big deep dive into the case between 2005 and 2006.

[432] So this is a lot of her awesome research.

[433] And the other sources are listed in the show notes.

[434] All right, here we are Friday, July 22nd.

[435] or we're in 1966.

[436] All right?

[437] Two laborers are trimming trees and brush around Lake Summit in North Carolina.

[438] It's just south of a town called Hendersonville.

[439] And once their job is done, their tree trimming stuff is done, they take the tree limbs and brambles to a nearby dumping spot.

[440] You know where this is going.

[441] They finish unloading the trimmings.

[442] They hop back in the truck, try to go to turn around.

[443] And then one of the men sees something in the tall grass.

[444] They think it's amazing.

[445] They do.

[446] Then they think it's two mannequins.

[447] They need it to be two mannequins.

[448] Yeah.

[449] Just that feeling in between the mistake, you're like catching your eye of like, that's weird.

[450] And then the slow realization, horrifying.

[451] Absolutely.

[452] So they get out, of course, a strange smell, hits them immediately.

[453] They walk over.

[454] They find not two mannequins, but three human bodies.

[455] Two men and one woman.

[456] The things that jump out at them right away and shortly after, you know, when the law enforcement show up is how their bodies are arranged.

[457] They've been placed in, what they say is a, quote, crude semicircle with different objects resting on each of their bodies.

[458] One of the men's crutches that he had been using, and you could tell he had a broken leg, are laid on top of him in the sign of a cross.

[459] The other man has an 18 -inch long piece of scrap metal sitting across his neck.

[460] And the woman has a whiskey bottle leaning against her neck.

[461] So it's definitely like a stage scene, and it's very odd.

[462] The local police are in complete shock because none of them have seen a crime of this magnitude, obviously.

[463] It's a small community, and because of that, the victims are quickly identified as two local men who had been missing since the previous Sunday.

[464] Oh.

[465] So Vernon Shipman is 43, and Charles Glass is 36.

[466] And the woman is later identified as 61 -year -old Louise Shoemate, who's a factory worker from Asheville, North Carolina.

[467] Charles has 21 puncture wounds in his chest while Louise has 17 in hers and all three have head injuries looking like they've been bludgeoned both men are clothed but Louise is found partially nude with clear signs of sexual assault and strangely Vernon and Charles have no known connection to Louise at all so very odd scene very word circumstances to begin with and almost kind of like partially ritualized looking so it would be like even eerier because you're out in the middle of the woods.

[468] Yeah.

[469] Yeah.

[470] Scary.

[471] So let's move switch over.

[472] We're going to talk about the men.

[473] With a population of about 6 ,000 in the 1960s, Hendersonville, North Carolina is of course one of those small tight -knit communities.

[474] Everyone feels safe.

[475] No one locks their doors.

[476] Vernon Shipman, who's 43 in 1966 when this happens, is well like to, in town and is the owner of tempo music, a popular record store.

[477] He's close with his family.

[478] He's known for his cooking and throwing large dinner parties for his friends and family, often described as polite, kind, and a soft -spoken gentleman.

[479] His boss describes him as very dependable and punctual.

[480] And Vernon is actually one of the only out -gay people in Hendersonville.

[481] So you can imagine back in the 1960s in fucking North Carolina, that seems like it would be very, very rare, right?

[482] he's clearly a very brave man definitely an authentic man definitely and he meets his partner charles glass the other man who was 36 in 1966 in either the late 1940s or early 50s and the two are immediately inseparable so somehow they find each other in this chaotic world you know lovely yeah where vernon is more soft -spoken Charles is more outgoing and eccentric he's a big music lover He's very chatty.

[483] And so he always strikes up conversations with the customers at the record store tempo music where he's the manager.

[484] He also has an interest in voodoo.

[485] He makes elixirs with mineral oil and other ingredients, and he makes charms and hexes made of crushed up like oregano and herbs and stuff.

[486] He even writes a booklet called Tales of Voodoo and Black Magic under a pen name.

[487] And it's sort of out of left field, but no one reads too much into it.

[488] It's almost just more of a hobby than it is like he's into voodoo magic, that kind of thing.

[489] And Charles is also known for throwing big parties at his house, sometimes with over 100 people.

[490] And together, the couple opens tempo music in 1952.

[491] So on Monday, June 18th, 1966, Vernon doesn't show up for work.

[492] And he works at an office.

[493] So they own the record store together, but Charles is the manager and Vernon has a regular job at an office.

[494] It's super unlike him to not show up for works.

[495] This is always the story.

[496] So his boss actually calls the local police to report him missing pretty immediately.

[497] Yeah.

[498] Like for me, I just would never show up to work, so I feel like nobody would have.

[499] No one would ever report me missing it.

[500] It would just be like, yeah, she just stops talking to people all the time and just be like, shoot.

[501] Mine would be, She's sleeping.

[502] It's that thing about a reliable person and the kind of people that, like, check in or, you know, that's the story that's always on, like, true crime shows.

[503] It's like she called her mother every Friday at 6 and that's how they knew something was wrong.

[504] She was a reliable, it's like a testament to their personality that there was someone you could count on.

[505] So the minute something is off, people know something, you know, it's not normal.

[506] Right.

[507] So then Vernon's dad, who he lives with Harley, rushes to the local newspaper, the Times News, and tells the editor to put Vernon's image on the front page of that day's paper because he also knows that his son and his partner are missing.

[508] Something's very wrong.

[509] Yeah.

[510] And the last time anyone had seen them is Sunday afternoon.

[511] So one of the Times employees named Ronnie Hollifield overhears Vernon's dad and comes over to tell him he saw Vernon on Sunday, the day before, July 17th, He said he saw him when he was driving his car at 1962 Ford Fair Lane.

[512] Charles was riding shotgun.

[513] Nothing were there.

[514] The pair were on Little River Road, headed south toward the nearby town of Flat Rock in North Carolina.

[515] But they weren't the only people in the car.

[516] In the back seat, Hollifield spotted two people he didn't recognize.

[517] A woman, and he said she had an odd smirk on her face and a man in sunglasses.

[518] And he also said it was weird that Vernon didn't, like, wave at him as they drove by.

[519] like that.

[520] It was just like odd.

[521] He had both his hands on the steering wheel, just purposefully driving.

[522] Yep.

[523] So when he gets the missing persons report, police chief bill powers doesn't think much of it.

[524] He says, quote, both Charles and Vernon being homosexuals, we thought they were probably off partying someplace.

[525] So there you have it.

[526] I mean, it is 1966, but man, when you hear those like excuses slash reasons and it's always like, essentially it's like, it's like, the person's saying, well, that's your fault that you are the person that you are.

[527] Right.

[528] Well, we're not going to care too much about it because...

[529] We don't have to care about you because dot, dot, dot.

[530] It's just like, can we change this approach?

[531] But then two days later, at about 5 .30 on Wednesday, July 20th, 1966, police find Vernon's car on a dirt road near his home in Hendersonville, but there's no sign of Vernon or Charles, but the keys to the car are in the ignition and the doors are unlocked.

[532] people around town start fearing the worst and police chief powers starts finally entertaining the idea that maybe foul play is involved.

[533] And then we get to that Friday, July 22nd, 1966, when those two treat -termurds find the bodies and they're quickly identified.

[534] So unfortunately, when the local police arrive on the scene, their shock of what's going on outweighs their care with the delicate evidence, of course.

[535] Again, 1966, they step all over the scene.

[536] They pick up items without gloves.

[537] make it impossible for anyone to meaningfully look for footprints or any other clues that might help them solve the case.

[538] So frustrating.

[539] Also, just like, this seems to be right on the edge of when that started to change.

[540] Like, they probably had just stopped inviting photographers in at that point.

[541] And now they were like, well, some of us are in here, but, you know, a smaller number is fine or something.

[542] Totally.

[543] When was police tape invented, I wonder?

[544] Hmm.

[545] Hmm.

[546] Hmm.

[547] Something to think about.

[548] Do you use police tape?

[549] Let us know when you invented it.

[550] Did your dad invent police tape?

[551] Lieutenant Harold Crisp of the Buncombe County Sheriff Department says, quote, it was like a circus out there.

[552] Everybody and his grandmother went down there.

[553] So not good.

[554] The autopsies reveal that all three of the victims, Charles Vernon and Luis, died by blunt force trauma to their heads.

[555] The stab were puncture wounds in Charles and Luis's chest.

[556] are determined to have been inflicted before their deaths but are not ruled the cause of their deaths.

[557] There's also evidence that Luis had been sexually assaulted with a foreign object prior to death.

[558] Horrifying.

[559] But, of course, at the time, there's no rape kits, there's no semen analysis or DNA testing available.

[560] So there's no way for authorities to test for these materials and they don't properly secure or archive anything to be tested in the future when science catches up, which is a huge bummer.

[561] Horrible.

[562] Yeah.

[563] I mean, I'm listening to a podcast right now from the 90s and the nail clippings are just starting to be taken because the idea that science might catch up at some point is just starting to take hold, you know?

[564] Yes, I mean, 1966 in some ways, is so, so long ago.

[565] It's just like before, like, that was when you could only talk on the phone sitting in your kitchen at a chair.

[566] Totally.

[567] Well, I want to hear something crazy about this that I was going to get to you later.

[568] Hendersonville in 1966 is just starting to integrate.

[569] Oh.

[570] That's how, like that is the history that we're dealing with right now.

[571] Okay.

[572] You know what I mean?

[573] Yeah.

[574] Yep.

[575] On top of that, Hendersonville is a small town and extreme crimes like this are basically unheard of.

[576] So rumors start to circulate as they always do.

[577] Because of the odd arrangement of the bodies and Charles's love of voodoo, residents speculate that voodoo or witchcraft may somehow be involved.

[578] This is never proven.

[579] With Vernon and Charles both being gay, there's speculation that the murders are hate -driven, and there's no theory to prove this one or the other.

[580] Another theory that crops up is that the murders were racially motivated.

[581] All three victims are white, but Vernon and Charles sold records made by black artists.

[582] They had black friends, and they welcomed black customers into tempo music.

[583] And as I said, Henderson County had just started to integrate, so that was a possibility.

[584] And 12 days after the killings, a cross was burned just about a quarter mile from the murder scene.

[585] Isn't that insane?

[586] But the police rule the cross burning as a, quote, juvenile prank and dismiss the idea that it had anything to do with the murders.

[587] It's not a juvenile prank.

[588] No, I want more info than that.

[589] Yeah.

[590] If you're going to do a prank, you just light a dumpster on fire or throw eggs at your high school or something.

[591] It's like everybody knows what a burning cross means.

[592] Yeah.

[593] Insane.

[594] That's insane.

[595] So Charles and Vernon had last been seen in the afternoon on the day they disappeared that Sunday, as I told you.

[596] They had never shut up to pick up a friend for dinner at 5 .30 Sunday evening, so that's when they disappeared.

[597] Another person comes forward.

[598] His name's Calvert Hunt Jr. He's a part -time employee at Tempo Music, who's close with Vernon and Charles.

[599] He also saw Vernon and Charles driving with this mysterious man and woman around 6 .30 on Sunday heading south.

[600] So that's the last sighting of them.

[601] They both described the man, the mysterious man on the backseat, as 40 to 50 years old, white with light colored thin hair, and that he wore an outdated suit, dark blue with pinstripes.

[602] And the descriptions of the woman in the car match the woman found dead at the scene, Louise Shumate.

[603] So no one in town has ever heard of Luis Shumate, and they have no idea how Vernon and Charles would have known her, which is such a weird mystery to this story.

[604] So the police start to dig up as much information as they can on her, but Louise would turn out to be something of an enigma.

[605] The last time anyone sees Louise Shoemate is around 4 .30 p .m. on the afternoon of Sunday, July 17th in 1966.

[606] She spotted leaving her home at Ravenscroft Apartments in Asheville, North Carolina.

[607] It's about 25 miles north of Hendersonville.

[608] Her car is found two days later on Highway 191, just northwest of Hendersonville.

[609] All the windows are down.

[610] The keys are in the ignition, and her purse is hanging on the car's door handle.

[611] So something happened right there, you know.

[612] Well, also, you would have to, like, very specifically place a purse on a door handle if I'm not, right?

[613] I mean, like, how do you do that?

[614] I don't know.

[615] I don't know if they mean inside the door or outside the door.

[616] But yeah.

[617] It just feels like somebody being like, and we're leaving this here and we're walking away.

[618] Totally.

[619] And I want someone to see it, too.

[620] Yeah.

[621] It's just eerie.

[622] I don't know.

[623] I could be wrong.

[624] Also, all the windows, I know this is like semantics, but all the windows at the time are manual.

[625] So you'd have to go in and purposely roll all of them down.

[626] I don't know if that matters.

[627] Yeah.

[628] True.

[629] So Luis Shumate is born in Asheville, North Carolina, on August 21st, 1904.

[630] But no one knows much about her beyond that.

[631] In fact, most people think she's younger than she lets on because some people say she looks like she's in her 40s, even though she's 61.

[632] Plus, her driver's license says she was born in 1911, which is later.

[633] So it's kind of this weird, who is she, you know, thing.

[634] She's briefly married.

[635] She has no children.

[636] She bounced around between various factory and retail jobs and is working at Taylor Instrument Company in Art in North Carolina in between Asheville and Hendersonville at the time of her death.

[637] No one at work knows her particularly well, and they find her tough to get along with.

[638] Wow.

[639] that's when do you hear about that like which part usually men are like this where they're kind of like drifters and lone wolves it's really kind of compelling to hear about a woman that's like that and potentially but i could be completely wrong obviously sounds like she might have a fake ID if her if her birthday doesn't line up with how old she's supposed to be yeah she does have a niece in town.

[640] Oh, okay.

[641] But it is very weird.

[642] And her niece calls her Aunt Louise says that she is a, quote, very private person who is, quote, hard to get to know.

[643] Like, your own fucking auntie is like hard to get to know.

[644] That's like, she's got some secrets, you know.

[645] She doesn't have a phone and she keeps no letters or photos in her home, even though she often carries a camera around with her.

[646] So definitely very mysterious.

[647] Yeah, we'll get to theories.

[648] But she has one known friend in Henderson County.

[649] So there is someone she knows there, a woman named Ruby Taylor, who she often visits and sometimes stays with her and her husband for days at a time.

[650] But Ruby hadn't seen or had contact with Louise in the days leading up to her murder.

[651] But she does tell police one insightful thing, which is that she and Louise would sometimes pick blackberries along the side of the road near where Louise's car was found.

[652] Holy shit, picking blackberries.

[653] Yes, that's right.

[654] Waiter to talk about that.

[655] She suspects maybe Louise had been picking blackberries and the murderer, like, somehow came across her and abducted her, but police find no evidence to confirm or deny this.

[656] So what happened between the time she left her apartment and wound up in Vernon's car or how she wound up in Vernon's car is a total mystery.

[657] Hmm.

[658] I want to know if, like, her car was working or if it had broke down and maybe she hitched a ride with them.

[659] Or if, like, somewhere...

[660] Here's total, like, just writing.

[661] But what if that camera she usually carried around with her, ended up at like a thrift store somewhere that had a roll of film.

[662] That's the kind of thing that I always would do when I was thrifting is like, you pick something up and immediately write a little story about it where it just like, what's on that?

[663] What if that camera is somewhere and he threw it like the person that did it threw it in a dumpster and it was findable?

[664] Totally.

[665] Ooh, got the chills.

[666] I love that.

[667] Nine months later, after the victims had been found, on May 11, 1967, a local...

[668] Hey.

[669] Oh, your birthday.

[670] Oh, my God.

[671] A local teen confesses to police that he and three friends had found Vernon's car where the supposed killer had left it and took it for a joy ride before police found it.

[672] He says they came across it just before dark on Sunday the day they disappeared, hidden in tall grass, about six miles from the crime scene with the keys in the ignition.

[673] They just find this car and they fucking take it for a joyride, totally unassuming.

[674] That was very honest of a teen to admit that.

[675] Yeah, but the fact that he did it nine months later, you know, he was shitting his pants the entire fucking time, right?

[676] Like, what if this has something?

[677] Like, they're going to think, I kill these people.

[678] Like, all the cars you steal when you're a teenager, the fucking murder victim's car.

[679] Right.

[680] That's kind of just hidden in grass.

[681] Like, ugh.

[682] Totally.

[683] Wow.

[684] And so eventually they ditch the car, but they just happened to ditch it right by Vernon's house.

[685] So it's just a total coincidence.

[686] Wow.

[687] Yeah.

[688] The boys are questioned.

[689] They're ultimately not marked to suspects.

[690] And so they set up a tip line.

[691] A few random suspects pop up, as they tend to do.

[692] No one really leads anywhere.

[693] But another suspect who pops up is a more promising lead.

[694] A man named Paul Saxman.

[695] He owned a house next door to Vernon's, but rented a house.

[696] out while he lived in Indianapolis.

[697] And so Vernon had agreed to look after the property and collect the rent and then take it to the bank for the mortgage payments on Paul's behalf, kind of like managing the property.

[698] But then Paul gets notification from the bank saying they hadn't received the mortgage payments like Vernon hadn't been fucking depositing those checks.

[699] Okay.

[700] And so he accuses Vernon of taking his money.

[701] And soon after the murders, Paul the sued for closes on the house and it's auctioned off.

[702] And the buyer finds an old, broken, what's called a frog gigging pole in the closet, in one of the closets with blood on it.

[703] And he turns it over to the police thinking it may have been the murder weapon, but the authorities analyze the blood and they can't determine if it's human or frog blood.

[704] Like that's how the science was at the time.

[705] They couldn't be like, is this fucking, what is this?

[706] Blood of a frog or blood of a human?

[707] Yeah, that's, I mean, it's like the dark ages in terms of this kind of investigation.

[708] Yeah.

[709] Also a frog gigging pole.

[710] That sounds, it's like when you stab a frog, right?

[711] Yeah.

[712] Sometimes people eat frogs or like, you know.

[713] That's fine.

[714] Frog -leg stuff.

[715] That's true.

[716] So they hit a dead end with this dude and drop him as a suspect.

[717] But that is definitely a reason to kill someone, right?

[718] Like money is in like the Steve Harvey family feud top three of, of the, all the stories we hear.

[719] I mean, Big motivator.

[720] So the entire investigation keeps going this way.

[721] A suspect will turn up.

[722] Police will look into it, and there's either a good reason to rule them out or no evidence to bring any charges against them.

[723] But when a crime spree breaks out in May of 1968, in Hendersonville, police think they might finally have their killer.

[724] So throughout his spree, Edward Thompson Jr., who's 37 in 1968, had kidnapped nine different people.

[725] He raped five and kills two before he's finally caught later that year.

[726] Oh, my God.

[727] Yeah.

[728] So he went berserk.

[729] He was berserking.

[730] Yeah.

[731] The crimes he's arrested for share some very striking similarities with the triple murder.

[732] First, Thompson usually forced the people he abducted to drive him around until finally landing on his desired location to commit his crimes.

[733] So right off the bat.

[734] He wore dark glasses, like the ones that the witnesses had seen the man in the back seat wearing.

[735] He laid a rubber hose on top of one of the other women he had murdered, so laying random objects.

[736] He also had an interest in voodoo, which people thought explained the laying of objects on victims and further fed into the voodoo rumors surrounding the triple murders.

[737] And he also allegedly told one of the surviving couples that he had kidnapped, quote, I've already killed three people, two more won't make a difference.

[738] He also left the keys in the ignition.

[739] Just like little things like that that just are too much of a coincidence.

[740] Yeah, they completely match.

[741] I mean, when you just said that the more recent victims also had things laid on their body, that's big, I think.

[742] Or he could have read about it in the paper, right?

[743] And I don't know how much information they put out.

[744] True, like he was a copycat.

[745] But still, like, it feels like if he's going on the spree you're describing where he's like kind of has to.

[746] victimize these people and it just keeps continuing.

[747] It would make sense that the cold case are the first three that he did it to.

[748] Absolutely.

[749] But there's one major problem with the suspect.

[750] So Edward Thompson Jr. is black and the still unidentified man spotted in the back of Vernon's car on that day was white.

[751] So we can't confirm or deny if Thompson had anything to do with it, but it does seem difficult to rule him out based on those, you know, topics.

[752] BMO.

[753] Yeah.

[754] Yes.

[755] So after he's arrested, Thompson is sentenced to five consecutive sentences plus 20 years.

[756] Police question him about the triple murder while he is in prison, but he denies having anything to do with it.

[757] He dies in 1989 in the state penitentiary.

[758] Even though it's never proven, police chief Bill Powers is certain that Thompson is the one who killed Charles Vernon and Luis, and many other people share this opinion.

[759] But in 2020, author Terry Neal brings this assumption into question in his book, The True Story of the 1966 Henderson Triple Murders.

[760] He argues that, well, Thompson's other crimes make him a possible culprit.

[761] It's also plausible that he had been made into a convenient scapegoat for a crime that, you know, has so many questions.

[762] Yeah, just to clear it out.

[763] Exactly.

[764] He claims to have found more evidence that indicates that Thompson had nothing.

[765] thing to do with the triple murder, but with all the known suspects long since deceased, it seems like we may never know what truly happened.

[766] And that is the story of the cold case Lake Summit, Triple Murders of Vernon Shipman, Charles Glass, and Louise Shumate.

[767] You got so angry at the end of that, I could tell.

[768] I mean, isn't part of this show the last part of the story, which is here's what happened like oh i didn't know we haven't talked about that seven it doesn't drive you it doesn't drive you crazy to not know yes and that's why i'm fascinated by them because they deserve to be solved and they're probably at some point in history all of these things were solvable and because of whatever fucking reason you know whether it's man -made or because of you know science it's unsolvable and But there is an answer.

[769] But that doesn't mean there's not an answer.

[770] And that drives me fucking crazy and keeps me up all night.

[771] And that's why I love covering these stories is because it's a puzzle that we could put together and that has a fucking answer.

[772] So like how did she get...

[773] If we could finish college in some sort of meaningful way.

[774] Like how did she...

[775] Like let's speculate on how she got in that car.

[776] You know?

[777] Did they know her because maybe she, Luis was gay as well and there was like a, you know, a club in town or something like that that they all went to.

[778] Sure.

[779] Or she's picking blueberries by the side of the road.

[780] He kidnaps her first.

[781] Right.

[782] He kidnaps her second while he has like the other two men in his possession, like holding a gun on them and then stop here.

[783] I'm going to get her.

[784] Or he he kidnaps her and they and Vernon and Charles witness it.

[785] And so he has to take them hostage as well, right?

[786] Because maybe he had a gun on him so he was able to like, because there's no defense wounds on any of the victims.

[787] I mean, I have to say you can see like not only in a case like this where they were just like, okay, somebody else did these heinous crimes that are similar.

[788] Let's just like, let's, we have to believe it's this guy because if it's not this guy, there's another that guy free in our community.

[789] Right.

[790] There's always a that guy.

[791] But that's how you get to the oddest tool, you know, one million confessions.

[792] Right.

[793] I mean, people in this one confessed and they found out they had been in prison the whole time.

[794] Like, who the fuck are these people who, like, come forward?

[795] It's just.

[796] Yeah.

[797] Mentally ill, maybe or some sort of, some sort of thing.

[798] But, I mean, God.

[799] And maybe could there be science in the future that somehow does a thing that, none of us even understand just like how we didn't understand DNA in 1966.

[800] Absolutely.

[801] I feel like touch DNA is something that is going to be bigger, which they can do now, but it's like has to be so specific.

[802] Like not all cases can have it, but touch DNA and minuscule pieces of fiber and, you know, and skin cells and DNA are going to be able to be used eventually, you know, something.

[803] Who the fuck knows?

[804] Retinal scans?

[805] I don't know.

[806] Minority reports.

[807] starring Tom Cruise and Colin Farrell.

[808] Is Tom Cruise going to become our president?

[809] I don't know.

[810] Tell me you have something more uplifting or satisfying.

[811] Girl, you know I do because Hannah Crichton and Alejandro Keck plan these stories and they do it on purpose.

[812] They know what we're going to do.

[813] Great job.

[814] That was very compelling.

[815] Very compelling and also like how do they do it where they're going to say if anyone has information, if anyone has information, like what has changed societally where somebody could come forward and say, I was friends with these two men.

[816] I couldn't admit it back then, but now I can talk about it and here's the thing I know that no one knew.

[817] Well, that's when the love of our lives, deathbed confessions come up.

[818] Right?

[819] We need more of those.

[820] We do, you guys.

[821] Hometown murders are like sorely lacking in deathbed confession.

[822] The thing we're going to do right now is take a serious left turn.

[823] Because I'm going to be telling you a person who I know is a lifelong Royal Watcher and fan of the Windsor family about Queen Victoria's stalker, the boy Edward Jones.

[824] Ooh.

[825] Uh -huh.

[826] So the main sources used for this story, there's a book by historian Jan Bondison called Queen Victoria and the stalker, the strange story of the boy Jones.

[827] And that book is heavily cited.

[828] Jan Bondeson is kind of like the premier expert on this kid and this book was used a lot.

[829] There's also a three -part series from the podcast, Hysterical History about Queen Victoria's stalker.

[830] I don't want to say the full name right now because it gives a little something away.

[831] Yeah.

[832] And then Britannica's entries on Queen Victoria and the rest of the sources are in our show notes if you want to look any of them up.

[833] So this starts at 5 a .m. on December 14th, 1838.

[834] And you know what this means.

[835] We are in Victorian England, my favorite place to be.

[836] You have to imagine it.

[837] The streets of London.

[838] There's piles of ash being rooted through by street urchants.

[839] There's bearded men in stovepipe hats walking to the bank they own.

[840] Not at 5am, but I'm just trying to paint a picture.

[841] There's hands reaching through the bars of the workhouse.

[842] Fog.

[843] Lots of fog.

[844] There's so much fog, but there's also smog and there's smoke.

[845] And there's chimneys and there's children working in factories.

[846] Yeah.

[847] And it reeks of beans on toast.

[848] Meanwhile, over at Buckingham Palace.

[849] Everything's quiet as palaces are wont to be like, because almost no one is awake.

[850] The one exception is an overnight porter named William Cox.

[851] Cox is on standby.

[852] He's the one man ready to attend the needs of whoever might need something, the palace's residence or any guests that might be there, including the young Queen Victoria.

[853] So Cox is basically his post is at the entrance where the palace's most important royal aides enter and exit the building.

[854] And this room has an exit out to the street as well as doorways that lead to the interior of the palace.

[855] So it's like it's kind of like a main artery into the palace if you work there and know where it is.

[856] So Cox is sitting by a fireplace.

[857] He's finishing out his shift, hoping nothing happens because he's almost done.

[858] then one of the inside doors bursts open and a very strange -looking figure slinks into the room.

[859] Cox is dumbfounded.

[860] He's completely taken aback and also very frightened because this thing looks otherworldly.

[861] It stands on two legs, but it's short and it's incredibly shiny.

[862] And it's so dark that it's almost camouflaged in the darkness of the night.

[863] It's basically like it's a thing that looks like the color of oil walking across the room.

[864] And if the fireplace wasn't lit, Cox is certain he wouldn't have been able to see this creature at all.

[865] So he's staring in a daze and as he stares, he can see its features and he has a human face, quote, large and misshapen with the brow protruding and the mouth extremely wide.

[866] And, right?

[867] Nightmare.

[868] So, and again, this is 1838, so there's almost no light in this room.

[869] But Cox can see that this thing's eyes and teeth are standing out.

[870] So it's looking at him and smiling at him.

[871] Oh, my God.

[872] Because the eyes are bright white and the mouth is twisted into a huge toothy grin.

[873] The mouth is really big.

[874] So both people, things freeze and sizey, other up and then the creature basically just backs out of the room and closes the door behind it back into the palace.

[875] Have a good sleep.

[876] So Cox once again is standing there dumbfounded.

[877] He jumps up, he rushes toward the door, he pulls it open, he calls out, who are you, into the long corridor?

[878] Of course, there's no response.

[879] So he starts walking down the hallway, looking for another glimpse of this figure, but he immediately trips over something like all the way down onto the floor.

[880] And when he gets up and is able to look down and see what he tripped over, it's an abandoned pile of odds and ends.

[881] So it's three pairs of pants, some money, a book, a big lock, and a small sword that has the name Charles Augustus Murray etched into it.

[882] And Cox recognizes Murray as one of the Queen Victoria's closest aides who has a bedroom in Buckingham Palace, although he isn't on site at the moment.

[883] So Cox realizes all of these items seem to have been taken from around the palace.

[884] So he's wondering if that thing he saw is actually just a thief, and this was the items he was planning to steal.

[885] So Cox immediately calls palace constables to conduct a thorough search of the palace, but when he tells them what the very strange creature looked like that he saw, they laugh in his face.

[886] Of course, they do conduct the search, and it doesn't take long before Cox's outrageous story is actually proven true.

[887] True.

[888] When they enter Charles Augustus Murray's bedroom, where the sword had been taken from, it's a complete mess.

[889] There's soot and grease all over the place, including on the bed, as if, quote, the intruder had been rolling around in it.

[890] End quote.

[891] So now the constables, the porters, and the other aides are searching every inch of Buckingham Palace for this creepy intruder by candlelight.

[892] Oh, fun.

[893] Right?

[894] And it was making me think of like, you know, that was back in the time where like the supernatural and the spiritualism was getting really popular.

[895] And I was like, it finally dawned on me here in my middle age of like, no wonder, everything, there was no light anywhere.

[896] It was everything was candlelight or gaslight.

[897] Like everything was shadowy and creepy.

[898] And imagine seeing this thing and then having you to go chase it around.

[899] Yeah.

[900] A big palette.

[901] Oh, my God.

[902] So, oh, no. They follow the greasy prints.

[903] all throughout the property, they finally go into the marble hall, which is obviously the big, grandiose hall, and there a constable will see something move behind a pillar.

[904] So he sprints toward the figure, and he tries to grab it by the collar, and when he can finally kind of grasp it, he sees what William Cox had seen.

[905] It's a, quote, grinning blackened face with white staring eyes, end quote.

[906] But this creature is like greasy, so it manages to wiggle out of the constable's grasp and it dives out an open palace window.

[907] Holy shit.

[908] So the constable calls for backup, yelling that the intruder is headed outside and a small group of staffers are waiting on the lawn and they tackle this little greasy figure all together.

[909] They're finally able to maintain a tight grip on it, on him, we should say, because it's not a creature.

[910] It's a boy.

[911] They lead it back into the palace.

[912] and then the light of the morning, they can finally see what they're dealing with.

[913] Of course, not a creature.

[914] It's a teenage boy covered head to toe in soot.

[915] And when the constables turn out his pockets, they find various items that have been stolen from the palace, including items from Queen Victoria's own bedroom.

[916] This boy has a portrait of the queen, some of her personal letters, and multiple pairs of her underwear stuffed down his pants.

[917] Oh, my goodness.

[918] Turns out the boy is named Edward Jones and he's one of the first celebrity stalkers in recorded history.

[919] Holy shit.

[920] As far as we know.

[921] Victorian perverts.

[922] I had no idea.

[923] Teen Victorian perverts.

[924] So here's a quick overview of what is going on in England at the time.

[925] The late 1830s, there's a huge class divide.

[926] Many people are poor, struggling to get by.

[927] Violence is pervasive.

[928] And so is polluted.

[929] according to the British National Archives, quote, crime and how to deal with it was one of the greatest issues of Victorian Britain.

[930] There seemed to be a rising crime rate from about 5 ,000 recorded crimes per year in 1800 to 20 ,000 per year in the 1830s.

[931] So it's a major concern this crime for Victorian Brits.

[932] Theft, vandalism, assaults are very common.

[933] And throughout the 1830s, newspapers are dominated with headlines about grisly murders.

[934] This is also the period where there's cultural acceptance of the supernatural.

[935] Many people believe in ghosts, spirits, and even monsters.

[936] In 1837, so just the year before, stories of the legendary Springheel Jack burst onto the scene.

[937] He's described as, quote, a fire -breathing devil man who could jump unnaturally high, end quote.

[938] There's an amazing last podcast on the left where they talk about Spring Hill Jack.

[939] It is so hilarious.

[940] It's so funny.

[941] And it really is crazy because the people who spotted this person, the way they described, they would be like he jumped 40 feet in the air.

[942] Like they were just going crazy with what could this be?

[943] Yeah.

[944] There's multiple Spring Hill Jack sightings throughout the United Kingdom.

[945] And it's possible that the Porter William Cox actually may have thought for a second that that is who he was dealing with that night because it was so in the news.

[946] But 1837 is also the year, so just the year before, that 18 -year -old Victoria takes the throne.

[947] Her predecessors, George IV and William IV, were both deeply unpopular rulers, but in a huge shift, the country more or less rallies around the young Queen Victoria.

[948] She's widely seen as a young innocent girl.

[949] Her ascension feels like a much -needed change, and finally, British people have something to feel hopeful about.

[950] But the public support for Queen Victoria doesn't translate into literal support from within the palace, Victoria's Royal Court is actually a mess.

[951] Historian Jan Bondison describes Victoria's Court as, quote, three groups of equally ineffective royal guardians operating independent of each other, the elderly and feeble royal porters, the royal pages who valued their night's sleep, and the military sentries who did not take their job very seriously, end quote.

[952] So basically, and kind of mind -bogglingly, this results in no one person.

[953] or team being directly responsible for Queen Victoria's security.

[954] In the midst of all this, here comes 14 -year -old Edward Jones.

[955] He was born in Westminster, England, to a very poor family who are sinking deeper into debt.

[956] Because Edward is the oldest of five kids in his family, he's sent to work when he's 12 years old.

[957] He hates it.

[958] Sure.

[959] Yeah, I mean, 12?

[960] Yeah.

[961] Please.

[962] A Victorian job when you're 12?

[963] Oh, please.

[964] Fuck no. They're like, here.

[965] Here's a bunch of fish guts, organize them.

[966] Yeah, break big rocks into little rocks for the last year, fucking life.

[967] So he spends all of his time daydreaming about being filthy rich.

[968] And now that there's a young popular queen on the throne who isn't really that much older than him, four years older than him, he becomes transfixed by her, by her life, by her wealth.

[969] Bondison says, quote, Buckingham Palace and its inhabitants, particularly the queen herself, were Edward's prime interest.

[970] in life.

[971] End quote.

[972] So by most accounts, this interest eventually morphs into a platonic obsession with the queen's life, her possessions, and her home.

[973] Which brings us back to that night in December of 1838 when the boy, Edward Jones, is greased up, tackled by palace constables.

[974] Now, they're racking their brains, trying to figure out how this kid not only got onto the property, but got close enough to the queen that he actually was able to steal her underwear.

[975] Very disturbing to all of them.

[976] Yeah.

[977] Also, what did Victorian or her underwear look like?

[978] They were giant.

[979] Blooms, right?

[980] Like, they're basically white pants.

[981] Yeah.

[982] So he, like, stuffed those in his pockets.

[983] So, like, his pockets were bulging, probably.

[984] Or were there under bloomers that are what we believe and call underpants today?

[985] Underpants.

[986] Down underpants.

[987] Fashion historians, let us know.

[988] Please bombard us with angry emails.

[989] So they, of course, the palace constables want to know what happened.

[990] Edward is not saying a word.

[991] He refuses to tell them anything about how he got inside.

[992] That's right.

[993] Don't fucking snitch.

[994] Keep your mouth shut.

[995] Don't snitch on yourself for sure.

[996] So they send Edward to appear in front of a judge.

[997] And this is when Edward catches the attention of the British press.

[998] Within days, newspapers and tabloids are flooded with the headlines about the boy Edward Jones and his palace adventures, and they call him the boy Jones, but they're very unforgiving when they describe his appearance.

[999] The Times reports that the boy Jones is, quote, a dirty, ill -looking fellow, end quote.

[1000] Meanwhile, the Morning Chronicle calls him, quote, very short for his age and very meanly dressed with a most repulsive appearance.

[1001] Ouch.

[1002] End quote.

[1003] Hurtful.

[1004] Yeah.

[1005] So Edward finally starts talking when he goes in front of the judge and when he does, he drops a bombshell.

[1006] The boy Jones claims that he's been living inside Buckingham Palace for 11 months.

[1007] What the fuck?

[1008] Oh my God.

[1009] That will later, of course, there's a huge reaction to that and everyone goes crazy.

[1010] Later on, they kind of debunk it.

[1011] So I don't want to like overpromise on that one.

[1012] But when I first read that sentence, I was like, it's from the mixed up files of Mrs. Basil Frankweiler.

[1013] Do you remember?

[1014] Was that the one where they lived in the mall?

[1015] Like, that they, like, the orphan kids lived in the mall.

[1016] Oh, I don't know.

[1017] I was thinking of West Side Stories from Wayside School.

[1018] That's a different one.

[1019] It's just a dream.

[1020] It's a child's dream.

[1021] Like, I'm just going to go hide in the palace.

[1022] Yeah, absolutely.

[1023] So Edward tells the judge to avoid being caught, he would simply hide under furniture or behind curtains during the day.

[1024] And then at night, he'd roam freely around the grounds.

[1025] And he'd wash his clothes, eat some food from the pantry.

[1026] And most importantly, he'd try to eat.

[1027] eavesdrop on private conversations.

[1028] In fact, he claims that he was only in the palace to dig up royal dirt, gossip, and drama so that he could write a tell -all book to make a ton of money and get out of poverty once and for all.

[1029] That's a fucking brilliant fucking career like plan, don't you think?

[1030] Yes.

[1031] Luckily for all of us, eavesdropping is not a crime.

[1032] And at the time, trespassing isn't even a criminal offense.

[1033] So him breaking into the palace, they can't.

[1034] charge him with anything.

[1035] They're like, if you can get in here, man, like, more power to you.

[1036] Yeah, actually, congratulations.

[1037] But it is a civil offense, except that monarchs usually aren't in the business of suing their subjects in civil court.

[1038] That would be a whole thing that the monarchy would have to choose to do.

[1039] They wouldn't do it.

[1040] So the judge charges Edward with theft, even though he didn't get away with any of those valuables that were found inside.

[1041] And then he sends him off to court.

[1042] So expectedly, this trial is a. media circus.

[1043] So he went and talked to a judge, like, basically first, and then the judge decided, yes, he does need to stand up in court.

[1044] Every second of testimony is gobbled up by British tabloid reporters.

[1045] They run with the Boy Jones' goofy story.

[1046] They write in salacious detail about what he might have heard, like hiding behind a curtain in the palace.

[1047] Oh, yeah.

[1048] Oh, my God.

[1049] And for weary British readers of the time, who normally cannot escape headlines about crime and murder and and, you know, horrible things happening.

[1050] These juicy stories just offer up a refreshing and often very funny break from reality.

[1051] Within days, everyone knows the boy Edward Jones's name.

[1052] He even attracts a fan base of disgruntled Brits who see him as the perfect foil for the stuffy out -of -touch monarchy.

[1053] But not everyone likes the boy Jones, of course.

[1054] Over at Buckingham Palace, the Queen's royal court, and of course Queen Victoria herself, are reeling from Edward's claims that he lived in the palace for nearly a year and, of course, the threat about writing a tell -all.

[1055] They're freaking out, they don't know what he actually may have heard or witnessed, and so kind of anything is possible.

[1056] Jesus.

[1057] After a quick investigation, though, they decide that 11 months is out of the question that he's probably lying because the specific claims he made like that he would hide during the day and then roam the palace at night, wash his clothes, and eat food from the pantry.

[1058] They just don't check out.

[1059] Right.

[1060] For starters, the fact that he could be doing this for that long without being seen by one palace staffer seems highly unlikely.

[1061] Right.

[1062] And although he, if he was covered and sit a lot, I don't know.

[1063] Maybe he could, but...

[1064] Yeah, but then he would have left behind Prince and someone would have been like, what is going on.

[1065] True, that would be, he would be like, it would be like a family circus cartoon of him walking all over the palace.

[1066] Right.

[1067] Also, at night, all the lights in Buckingham Palace were extinguished.

[1068] Oh.

[1069] So that means roaming the grounds, while technically possible, would be difficult.

[1070] And then inside, you would make noise.

[1071] You would be running into stuff.

[1072] Sure.

[1073] Not only that, but the pantry is locked at night and the water is turned off.

[1074] So it's not out of the realm of possibility.

[1075] Edward could have found food that had been left out or maybe a basin of water somewhere, but those two things aren't something he'd have access to most nights of the year.

[1076] Right.

[1077] That said, palace officials do admit that Edward might have been on the property for several days.

[1078] How he got inside remains a mystery.

[1079] At first, they wonder if Edward was ever employed at Buckingham Palace.

[1080] That could explain how he was able to find that entry door and then navigate the grounds.

[1081] He's also the right age and size to be a chimney sweep.

[1082] Again, because he was found covered in soot, but no one on the staff recognizes him.

[1083] There's no record of Edward Jones ever being employed at Buckingham Palace.

[1084] So eventually, Edward admits the simple truth.

[1085] He got in by searching for open windows and unlocked doors.

[1086] Oh, man. You want it to be harder, you know?

[1087] Yeah.

[1088] Break into someone's home, essentially.

[1089] Palace.

[1090] Palace home.

[1091] Filled with fucking diamonds and shit.

[1092] I bet that little pile that the porter fell over by itself was worth like 500 pounds, just like stuff he was picking up.

[1093] Oh, my God.

[1094] Totally.

[1095] And he was covered in soup because he had tried unsuccessfully to escape up a fireplace with his stolen goods.

[1096] Just go out a window.

[1097] Right.

[1098] But I think he thought that would be like the smarter way to go.

[1099] Because maybe when he walked into that little room where the porter was, he had that stuff and then he had to dump it.

[1100] Yeah.

[1101] What's up with a smile, though?

[1102] Does he have some kind of...

[1103] He had a really big mouth and maybe he was like he didn't think anyone was in that little room before he thought he could just walk out the door so he just got nervous.

[1104] The smile's been bothering me. Well, this smile is something straight out of a horror movie.

[1105] Oh, for sure.

[1106] Right?

[1107] Okay.

[1108] So now when Edward Jones's trial ends, to everyone's surprise and Buckingham Palace's horror, the jury finds him not guilty of theft, and he is free to go.

[1109] Goodbye.

[1110] So the people, the jury of his peers, perhaps, are just 12 people that aren't his peers, are just like, come on.

[1111] Yeah.

[1112] Yeah.

[1113] So Edwards' exoneration floods Victoria and her court with a new wave of anxiety.

[1114] The queen even writes in her diary that, quote, suppose he had come into the bedroom, how frightened I should have been, end quote.

[1115] Her feelings of uneasiness and vulnerability presumably only get stronger as time passes.

[1116] And he's, you know, still out and about.

[1117] By 1839, the year after Edwards break in, the queen is caught up in a huge political scandal.

[1118] The short version of it is that Victoria, publicly accused one of her own maids of having an out -of -wedlock pregnancy when, in fact, the maid had developed a tumor so large, it made her abdomen look like she was pregnant.

[1119] Oh, my goodness.

[1120] And then when that maid dies soon after, the public is enraged at the queen for her cruelty and her accusations.

[1121] So that's horrifying.

[1122] Yeah.

[1123] There's more trouble that October after she marries her first cousin, Prince Albert.

[1124] the British people are angry because Albert is German.

[1125] And at the time, Brits, broadly speaking, don't love Germans.

[1126] Their stereotyped is rude and brutish.

[1127] So it seems to be going against, you know, the country's identity.

[1128] No problem with the first cousin, though?

[1129] That they don't even blink an eye at.

[1130] Good.

[1131] I guess because they knew that's what the royals do.

[1132] They love to marry their family.

[1133] Blue Bloods and all that, yeah.

[1134] In June of 1840, a man motivated by his.

[1135] belief that a woman should not be rolling England tries to assassinate Queen Victoria and Prince Albert as they're leaving the palace in an open carriage.

[1136] This assassination attempt is not successful.

[1137] The man is quickly arrested and thrown into Bedlam.

[1138] But amazingly, even after all of these things, Queen Victoria's royal court still fails to put in any meaningful security measures in place to better protect her.

[1139] So...

[1140] Cool, guys.

[1141] Great job.

[1142] She can't be more at risk.

[1143] And they're just It's like, well, we'll get around to it next weekend.

[1144] Okay, so now it's December 3rd, 1840.

[1145] We're almost two years exactly from Edwards' soot -covered night.

[1146] And Queen Victoria has recently given birth.

[1147] So on this night, as she is sleeping, her midwife, Mrs. Lilly, is taking care of the newborn baby in a room just down the hall when Mrs. Lily hears a door creak open.

[1148] She listens intently.

[1149] No one should be awake on the floor at that.

[1150] point.

[1151] So she calls out into the hallway who's there in classic horror movie style and then she hears the door to the queen's nearby dressing room slam shut.

[1152] So Mrs. Lilly immediately rings a bell alerting the queen's aides of an emergency and within seconds and an aide has rushed to the scene along with one of the queen's baronesses.

[1153] The three immediately surround the dressing room door.

[1154] When they try to open it, it's locked.

[1155] So it takes some effort but they eventually unbolt the door and they force their way inside.

[1156] But when they search everywhere, they search behind the drapes and the cabinets behind the chairs.

[1157] No one's there.

[1158] Then the baroness drops to the floor and looks under the couch.

[1159] Oh, no, no. Guess who's back?

[1160] Back again.

[1161] Yep.

[1162] She finds, quote, an ugly boy grinning at her with his wide mouth.

[1163] Stop with the grinning.

[1164] Like, just break into a house without smiling about her, please.

[1165] Sorry, he loves it too much.

[1166] It's the boy Jones.

[1167] he's back, baby.

[1168] I got this back.

[1169] I wrote it.

[1170] I wrote it down on paper.

[1171] So the constables arrive.

[1172] They quickly and quietly take Edward downstairs to question him so that they don't wake up the queen.

[1173] Yeah.

[1174] When they do, Edward tells them that he had, quote, strolled up to the palace and entered through a window.

[1175] Jesus.

[1176] And then he slept in one of the beds in the servants' quarters.

[1177] He helped himself to some soup that had been left out in the kitchen, and he found his way to the throne room.

[1178] there Edward, quote, sat on the throne and handled various ornaments.

[1179] He's a scamp, I'd say.

[1180] He's a true 14 -year -old scamp who's like, guess what?

[1181] Here's what's better than being a 14 -year -old or now a 15 -year -old with a full -time job.

[1182] Yeah.

[1183] Anything else.

[1184] Including this kind of mischief, criminal mischief, or non -criminal mischief because it wasn't against the law, apparently.

[1185] So he left the throne room, he made his way to the queen's dressing room, and that's where he was caught hiding under the sofa.

[1186] Edward's insistent that he doesn't want to hurt anyone, including Queen Victoria or her baby.

[1187] He points out that he hasn't taken anything this time.

[1188] He just explains he's back in Buckingham Palace to get more material for his upcoming book.

[1189] But Queen Victoria staff knows that this is a big deal.

[1190] Regardless of what Edward says his intentions are, he managed to get within steps of the sleeping queen and her new baby.

[1191] That's bad.

[1192] So this time, the Queen's court does things a little differently.

[1193] Instead of being sent to court, Edward is prosecuted out of the public eye by the Queen's, quote, privy council made up of several high -ranking government judicial and religious officials.

[1194] So very...

[1195] Yeah, fucked.

[1196] That's bad news.

[1197] Like, the Royals are taking into their own private court.

[1198] Yeah.

[1199] Who's going to win there?

[1200] I wonder.

[1201] Yeah, fucked.

[1202] It's highly unusual.

[1203] it's very controversial, and given the fact that Edward didn't commit a felony, it is borderline authoritarian or legitimately authoritarian.

[1204] Anyway, trespassing is still not a criminal offense.

[1205] So aside from the soup, he actually didn't steal anything.

[1206] But behind closed doors, the Privy Council quickly sentences the now 17 -year -old boy Edward Jones to three months hard labor in a London prison.

[1207] And that is literally breaking rocks, like what you said earlier.

[1208] That is hard.

[1209] labor.

[1210] Queen Victoria's royal court is hoping that they can keep this new incident under wraps since the first break -in made the palace staff look like bumbling idiots.

[1211] And if Ward got out about the second break -in, that reputation would almost certainly be cemented and, of course, could have serious effect on anyone else interested in exploiting this loose palace security.

[1212] But unfortunately, Ward gets out and it spreads like wildfire, of course.

[1213] Oh, my God.

[1214] The press and public are still totally obsessed.

[1215] obsessed with the boy Edward Jones.

[1216] In March of 1841, he gets out of prison.

[1217] And again, he is a tabloid darling.

[1218] People can't stop talking about him.

[1219] The press literally follows him around.

[1220] Sure.

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] He's like actually kind of a celebrity in a way.

[1223] He's an influencer.

[1224] He's the original influencer.

[1225] He's a Victorian influencer.

[1226] Covered in soot.

[1227] So now the Queen's Court finally has decided to act.

[1228] Ahead of his release, the team of 14 constables and two sergeants start guarding the grounds.

[1229] And at the same time, police follow Edward wherever he goes.

[1230] So along with the obsessed British press that's surveilling him.

[1231] So like when he goes to church, it's printed in the newspaper, when he goes to a temperance meeting, it's covered by reporters.

[1232] Within just a few days of his release from jail, Edward has had enough of all this attention.

[1233] he decides to spend much of his time hold up at home under the watchful eye of his now very weary parents.

[1234] Oh, I bet.

[1235] Yeah, they're like, life is hard enough for us.

[1236] What are you doing?

[1237] Yeah, can you not, whatever it is?

[1238] But what he does and what he has done in the past, he goes out at night.

[1239] So while the rest of London and his family sleeps, he sneaks out and moves freely around the city.

[1240] And that's exactly what he's doing on March 16th, 1841.

[1241] just two weeks after his release from prison.

[1242] Now, over at Buckingham Palace, the team of security personnel is on duty and everything's in order until a little past 1 a .m. And that's when one of the constables hears a noise in the picture gallery.

[1243] No, a third time...

[1244] You're kidding me. When he follows the sound, he spots a man crouching in a nearby corner.

[1245] The intruder is stuffing his face with boiled potatoes stolen from the servant's kitchen.

[1246] Come on.

[1247] And the constable shines his lantern in that direction and calls out, Jones, is that you?

[1248] Oh, my God.

[1249] And the boy Edward Jones replies, yes, it's me. Oh, my God.

[1250] Or now he's 17.

[1251] So he's like, yeah, it's me. Once again, the boy Jones, which is my favorite nickname of all time, is arrested and sentenced to three months hard labor.

[1252] And again, words spreads like wildfire, of course.

[1253] Just poor parents.

[1254] They're like, can you just go work so we can feed the rest of your siblings?

[1255] It's all we're asking.

[1256] We need it, actually, please.

[1257] Or at least be successful enough in stealing stuff that you get back here with something.

[1258] Totally.

[1259] You fool.

[1260] Okay, tabloids now are kicking off another entire news cycle with the Boy Jones.

[1261] There's such a frenzy that people start singing songs and writing poems in his honor.

[1262] Jan Bondison writes, quote, after his first intrusion into Buckingham Palace, the Boy Jones had become something of a B -List celebrity.

[1263] his second strike had taken him to the A -list, and his third catapulted him into becoming a medius superstar, end quote.

[1264] Mm -hmm.

[1265] That's what happens.

[1266] It would be so enjoyable if you were just like the lady that makes the meat pies, and you're just like, what, snapping up your newspaper?

[1267] Totally.

[1268] The greatest.

[1269] Okay, but Edward remains uncomfortable with this newfound fame.

[1270] Because of all the things he wants, which is to be a royal, to be rich, all those things, Fame is famous.

[1271] Fame wasn't in that list.

[1272] He finds it suffocating.

[1273] In addition to the journalists and police that continue to track his every move, people are, people now point and stare and refer to him as the Queen Stocker, like they know him on site.

[1274] He becomes a walking one -man freak show.

[1275] He's even offered a job at a music hall to basically tell his life story to an audience for four pounds of performance, which in today's money would be 330 pounds of performance.

[1276] Oh, my God.

[1277] The answer is yes.

[1278] The answer for Edward, the boy Edward Jones, is no. Bro.

[1279] It's the only job he can get because nobody wants to hire the enemy of a queen.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] And still he...

[1282] And it's a good job.

[1283] Yeah.

[1284] No shame in the paycheck, as Marty says.

[1285] Right?

[1286] I mean, truly, but maybe he...

[1287] Maybe it's that kind of thing where they've been really mean about his appearance.

[1288] Right.

[1289] You know, they've probably said all kinds of crazy shit that he's read or people.

[1290] have read to him or people have said to him.

[1291] So at this point, he's like, I'm not getting up in front of anybody.

[1292] Yeah.

[1293] It's more like he's become a sideshow.

[1294] Yeah.

[1295] And doesn't want the attention.

[1296] Got it.

[1297] So meanwhile, Queen Victoria's court and all her people are stressing because Edward has continued to talk about this book he's going to write.

[1298] They are so worried about it.

[1299] And they're also worried that he's just motivated to continually break in and continually eavesdrop to try to write that book.

[1300] There's no telling what politically sensitive or personally humiliating things he has seen or could see or hear in the future.

[1301] Even worse, they worry that Edward's behavior could escalate to something more dangerous and violent.

[1302] And then shortly after his second release from prison, Edward Jones vanishes.

[1303] Even his own family doesn't seem to know what happened to him.

[1304] And after some time passes, his parents receive a letter in the mail from Edward claiming that he's enlisted in the Navy and he's currently stationed in Brazil.

[1305] But this letter, which is written in Edward's handbook, writing, or seems to be at least, does not sound like their son at all.

[1306] Edward at home is a reserved, aloof young man. These letters are gushy and sweet.

[1307] And Edward's parents worry that he's been coerced into writing them.

[1308] And according to Jan Bondison, that's indeed what was happening.

[1309] His research suggests that Edward Jones was kidnapped by the British government and forced into the Navy to get him as far away from Buckingham Palace as possible.

[1310] Oh, that's one solution.

[1311] I mean, it kind of is.

[1312] And it's unclear for how long exactly Edward Jones has held at sea, but some sources claim it was for six years.

[1313] Oh, my goodness.

[1314] I love that.

[1315] It's like, our son is being too loving.

[1316] It's not him.

[1317] It's so sad.

[1318] He would never write us this nice letter.

[1319] It's not him.

[1320] No. What we do know is that Edward is a free man again by 1848.

[1321] He's 24 years old.

[1322] It's said that he's finally freed because the British government is nervous that he might die during his unjust incarceration.

[1323] So what was he like on some ship where he was just like, ugh?

[1324] Dysentery everywhere?

[1325] Prison ship, something horrible.

[1326] Yeah.

[1327] So they're afraid if that happens, there will be a huge backlash against the queen.

[1328] Ironically, little has changed about Edward's life after all these years.

[1329] When he gets back to England, he is still recognized on site, extremely famous.

[1330] Wow.

[1331] He's unable to escape people's sneers, and he still cannot find a job.

[1332] And then in his history, things get a little bit murky.

[1333] What we do know is that Edward winds up in Australia.

[1334] And it's unclear how or why.

[1335] By some accounts, he's arrested in 1849 on burglary charges and he's sent to a prison colony in Australia.

[1336] Yeah, that would make sense.

[1337] Yeah, right?

[1338] He's like, get him off the continent.

[1339] Yeah.

[1340] Other accounts say that the British government gave Edward a deal.

[1341] They said he can be free of the British government's constant surveillance, but he has to move to Australia.

[1342] And still other historians say that Edward goes to Australia because his brother lives there.

[1343] He's settled into a comfortable life as a civil servant and basically says, come down here and, you know, get yourself together.

[1344] Get away from that palace that just calls to you in the night like a siren.

[1345] It's like, it's one thing of like, wow, how crazy of you to love breaking into Buckingham palace.

[1346] But it's like, he's finding open windows.

[1347] Yeah.

[1348] making it difficult for him is a problem in this story or any less enticing in any way what we do know is that edward jones does in fact wind up in australia he works in a pie shop under the alias john frost and he even serves as perth's town crier where he's responsible for making public announcements on behalf of the local government but even though edward is now safely on the other end of the planet and he seems that he's over the, you know, obsessed with Queen Victoria stage.

[1349] He can't escape his reputation.

[1350] It doesn't take long before people find out that John Frost is actually the boy, Edward Jones, and when they do, Edward, of course, is again the butt of everyone's jokes.

[1351] Wow.

[1352] He tries to adapt.

[1353] He drops the alias and gets a new one, Thomas Jones.

[1354] That doesn't really help.

[1355] People always find out who he actually is.

[1356] And before long, he starts drinking to cope, which eventually.

[1357] morphs and do a decades -long battle with alcoholism.

[1358] Then on the day after Christmas, 1893, Edward Jones is seen by multiple people lying on his back on the edge of a bridge.

[1359] He has a bottle in his hands.

[1360] And at some point that afternoon, he drunkenly rolls off and plunges 12 feet headfirst onto the rocks below, and he dies at the age of 70.

[1361] Oh, my God.

[1362] Yeah.

[1363] So Edward Jones' life comes to a tragic end, but his story keeps going.

[1364] In death, Edward continues to be dogged with the stalker reputation.

[1365] As far as we know, he was not motivated by any kind of infatuation with the queen.

[1366] In fact, he never really showed much interest in anyone romantically and said many have argued that Edward's obsession with Victoria was about the wealth, the comforts, and the privilege that she enjoyed.

[1367] Throughout Edward's whole life, these things were never in his reach.

[1368] In 2010, historian and boy, Edward Jones expert Jan Bondison publishes a biography on Edward Jones in which he says, quote, the way Edward Jones was treated is something you can imagine under the rule of a tyrant.

[1369] He was undesirable, so they got rid of him.

[1370] His trial was held in secret and as a result of this suppression, information about the boy Jones is very hard to come by.

[1371] So Jan Bondeson basically had to go through and find all the old articles like basically pieced together the book that he wrote.

[1372] but pure research because there was just no centralized information about him.

[1373] Yeah.

[1374] So even though the boy Edward Jones' story is obviously insane and a very memorable case of a Buckingham Palace break -in, it's not the only one.

[1375] What?

[1376] Very famously in 1982, Queen Elizabeth woke up to find a disgruntled man named Michael Fagan sitting at the foot of her bed.

[1377] Basically, the rest of the story is just, this is according to Routers, Queen Elizabeth, quote, kept him talking until she could summon help.

[1378] So she actually had a conversation with him and asked him like what he wanted and he was just talking about.

[1379] It was 82.

[1380] So it was a horrible time in England.

[1381] Yeah.

[1382] There was all the garbage strikes.

[1383] There was the minor strikes.

[1384] Big labor movement.

[1385] I think that was the time of Thatcher.

[1386] I'm not positive, but...

[1387] And the troubles going on.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] Oh, yeah.

[1390] Always the troubles in Ireland.

[1391] That was a pretty constant 800 -year issue.

[1392] But, yeah, but definitely a big thing.

[1393] And I think he was like this kind of beleaguered citizen that was broke and just like, you have to do something, like help us out.

[1394] So despite all these incidents, it wasn't until 2007, nearly 170 years after the boy Edward Jones was caught in Buckingham Palace, that trespassing on the palace grounds officially became a criminal offense in the United Kingdom.

[1395] And that is the story of the boy, Edward Jones, one of the first celebrity stalkers in recorded history.

[1396] Oh, my goodness.

[1397] He just did it and did it and did it.

[1398] But the fact that they didn't pass that law immediately, it's like, hey guys, we're going to prevent this from happening again.

[1399] For the queen.

[1400] For the queen.

[1401] Like, you can't get the queen protected.

[1402] What the hell is your common man supposed to be expecting for?

[1403] Right.

[1404] Maybe they thought it was a bad look.

[1405] You know what I mean?

[1406] Like, let's just be chill about it.

[1407] They can get in here.

[1408] Let's wait 150 to 170 more years before we take care of this as a real issue.

[1409] Wow.

[1410] Also, this Jan Bondison who did all the research, like what a, how many other figures are out there that have these wild stories from the past that we don't know about because, you know, it's like a hodgepodge of articles written 150, years ago and then to get to like go find that and to go like basically be an archaeologist of history that's got there's probably a word for that that I'm not thinking of yes almost like a newspaper archaeologist where you're putting together how they used to do it what's real what's not yeah that would be a newspaper archaeologist hi we did not finish college and we never will here's the thing this show is accessible it's accessible it's not one of those podcasts for smart people.

[1411] God forbid somebody make a podcast for the average thinker.

[1412] That's us.

[1413] Hi.

[1414] That's what we like.

[1415] Nice to meet you.

[1416] Wow.

[1417] Great job.

[1418] That was, that was fun.

[1419] That was a fun one, though.

[1420] That show had everything.

[1421] Cool.

[1422] Well, good job.

[1423] Thank you.

[1424] And I guess we did it again.

[1425] We did.

[1426] High five over Zoom.

[1427] High five over Zoom to you too.

[1428] Guys, thanks for listening, you know.

[1429] Yeah.

[1430] All this time you just keep coming back and we really appreciate it we really do y 'all are fucking tits and we and high fives to all of you out there over our emotional zoom calls that we're always on with you that's right we're in your emotional zoom heart at all times we hope and now we're going to leave this meeting by saying stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye yeah Elvis do you want a cookie This has been an exactly right production.

[1431] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1432] Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1433] This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris.

[1434] Our researcher is Marin McClashen.

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