Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 3: Our Favorite Thirder

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Oh, and welcome.

[2] To rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[3] That's right.

[4] We are back here to cover episode three of my favorite murder, also with Karen and Georgia.

[5] That's right.

[6] So here's the deal.

[7] We're re -listening to our original old school episodes.

[8] We're going to add new commentary to our favorite moments from the show.

[9] And once we stop cringing, we are going to reflect on our humble beginnings.

[10] We're going to discuss important case updates about the murders that we talk about.

[11] And we're going to talk about all the things that have changed since way back when.

[12] The original air date for this is January 31st, 2016.

[13] Seems like a lifetime ago.

[14] It is 100 years of solitude ago.

[15] Now you can invite your book club and your pushy neighbors and your favorite apathetic arborists.

[16] so we can all be day one listeners.

[17] That's a group that I want to listen to podcasts with.

[18] A pathetic arborist?

[19] Yeah.

[20] They're just so stuck up about trees.

[21] I will not stop talking about trees.

[22] It's a very funny note.

[23] So, listener, just so you know, because this really is a painful exercise for Georgia and I in so many ways.

[24] I think we've already equated it to listening to your own answering machine message.

[25] Obviously, we volunteered for it, so our fault entirely.

[26] Yeah.

[27] But very difficult to actually press play and try to relisten ourselves.

[28] It really is.

[29] So what's beautiful about that is that we have many talented producers here at Exactly Right Media and on my favorite murder, who have been working for a very long time, basically taking notes on all of these episodes and telling us on paper what is in the episode.

[30] Yeah, because we tried the first one or two to listen to ourselves and take our own notes.

[31] And I was just sweating the whole time.

[32] It was a mess.

[33] I couldn't see my writing through my tears because of the kinds of things.

[34] Just a disaster.

[35] So this will actually be fun for us.

[36] That's the whole idea.

[37] This is fun.

[38] We're looking back.

[39] We're looking forward.

[40] We're looking around.

[41] We already lived through the mistakes and suffered through the repercussions of those mistakes.

[42] All of the listeners and other people that have been here with us know that.

[43] And they know those learning arcs that we've been through.

[44] So now we just want to have fun looking back.

[45] at the other stuff that happened in all those episodes.

[46] That's right.

[47] For example, both stories in today's episode, episode three, deal with the deaths of children, which is something we're a little more cautious of covering these days.

[48] Yeah, it's clearly in this episode, we are very new, we don't think anyone can hear us, and we are just having essentially a true crime kind of recap conversation.

[49] and there's, you know, sensitivity issues that, like, of course, in this day and age, and after all, we've learned and gone through, the conversation would go incredibly differently.

[50] Absolutely.

[51] These are two cases that we're both still pretty obsessed with ourselves.

[52] Yes.

[53] So I think we would have covered them no matter what and they're important stories to tell and there are updates on both of them, so that's exciting.

[54] It's very cool.

[55] The funny thing that someone figured out is that this episode of My Favorite Murder came out on a Sunday when the first two episodes had already come out on Thursdays and whoever the person was taking notes was like, do you guys know why?

[56] Just like because no one knew what they were doing.

[57] None of us had any true idea that this was supposed to be real, a business, a job.

[58] We didn't know when it was listening to care what day it came out on.

[59] And we didn't know that podcasts were supposed to come out on like.

[60] There was no reality to this.

[61] It was amateur hour, essentially.

[62] I mean, and I think we've kept that energy of amateur hour all throughout.

[63] We've been authentic.

[64] We've been our authentic, amateur selves.

[65] You guys know it.

[66] So you're about to listen to the top of episode three, where George and I are just chatting with each other as we do on this show.

[67] Time Machine, it's time to rewind.

[68] Here we go.

[69] Hi.

[70] How do we start talking about murder?

[71] No. Hey, Karen.

[72] How was your day?

[73] It was pretty good.

[74] Did you get murdered?

[75] I did and I lived through today.

[76] How about yourself?

[77] Didn't get murdered.

[78] See, that's all we want.

[79] Yeah.

[80] This is my favorite murder.

[81] I'm Georgia.

[82] I'm Karen.

[83] Let's start with a piece of news based on murdery stuff.

[84] Okay, good.

[85] Okay, so you know how one of the many ways that you can collect and present evidence is by matching hair follicles from the scene to the person or the murder or whatever?

[86] Yep.

[87] Turns out it's a completely bunk science.

[88] No. Yes.

[89] And the Justice Department is acknowledging that nearly every examiner at an elite FBI forensic unit gave flawed testimony in almost all trials in which they offered evidence against criminal defendants over more than two decade period.

[90] No. 95 % of the 268 trials viewed so far says that they overstated forensic matches.

[91] Holy.

[92] no, this is humongous.

[93] I know, because I've seen shows where they do this and I'm like, great, legit, that's crazy.

[94] Every, I feel like every forensic files that I've seen.

[95] The hair macs.

[96] Right?

[97] And they're like pulling up those, like, the microscopic things, the slides.

[98] And you see the ridges and you see the color.

[99] It turns out in one of the cases, it turned out to be dog hair that they found.

[100] Oh, shit.

[101] It wasn't even human hair and the guy got convicted on it.

[102] Do you know that in the, the guy, it's the Atlanta Child Killings?

[103] That guy, they only had him on carpet fibers.

[104] Holy shit.

[105] Which one's that?

[106] That's the one where there was tons of little kids in Atlanta, little black kids only, that were getting murdered.

[107] And they had this guy, and he is super suspicious because he was like, do you want to be a star?

[108] Posters all around the neighborhood, and he had a recording studio, which is, like, textbook, like, pedophilic entrapment stuff, or also a way to get a young star.

[109] on the rise.

[110] But these kids were like getting dumped.

[111] They were getting murdered and then thrown into the river.

[112] So like and and then one night it was like connected to him because one night someone was near the bridge where a kid was rolled up in carpet and dumped over.

[113] And then his car was spotted like somewhere nearby.

[114] Yeah.

[115] And they they they got him on it.

[116] But it was all about matching the carpet kid was wrapped up in to carpet somewhere else in the home or in the car.

[117] Yeah, there was a big piece of carpet cut out at his house.

[118] Yeah, I think so.

[119] I mean, now it's...

[120] It's pretty stupid, right?

[121] Yes.

[122] But the idea of that were, because it's such a believable piece of evidence.

[123] Well, you know what?

[124] Another one is, that might be flawed, that is one of my favorite ways to collect evidence besides handwriting analysis is blood spatter evidence.

[125] that they might totally debunk that too really i think i feel like it it's i mean yeah i guess it doesn't how do you scientifically prove those things true every for every single time uh which of course puts me in the mind of the staircase where all that blood spatter and i mean that was a big part of that documentary was all that but but are they saying that the science of how it lands and all that kind of stuff isn't real.

[126] Yeah.

[127] I mean, yeah, you can't call it scientific evidence because it's not science.

[128] It's kind of like conjecture.

[129] It's like, yeah, and magic talk.

[130] So when do they get to the part where they throw out owls?

[131] Because I feel like if you can use these things to get someone to confess, then great.

[132] But using it like the only thing to convict someone, that's insane.

[133] Yeah.

[134] Well, but also, So I think it's fascinating, like the Memphis, West Memphis 3, where you can get stupid people to confess very easily.

[135] Right, that's true.

[136] And those tactics, the other thing they need to reform is like keeping people in a room for 12 hours with no food and water and asking them the same question over and over and eventually having them just kind of go insane and want to be out of there.

[137] You lead the conversation.

[138] Yeah.

[139] You convince them that they did it.

[140] They're not confessing because they want to get out of there sometimes.

[141] It's like, maybe I fucking didn't for caught, right?

[142] Yeah, they tell you all these possibilities.

[143] It's crazy.

[144] It is super crazy.

[145] However, if there's some fucking creepy -ass dude and there's a missing blonde kid and they find a long blonde hair in his trunk, why would her, you know, why would that long blonde hair be in there?

[146] Because he's a wigmaker, because his mother has long blonde hair, because this.

[147] Yeah.

[148] It's the kind of thing where it's like saying being creepy is illegal.

[149] yeah that's the problem is that it's that thing of like you can't wear a black shirt depending on which part of the country you live in right certain things aren't allowed so that culturally that ties into my favorite murder today is does it really i want to hear your let's do let's tell each other our favorite murders okay wait you don't want to use that natural segue to go into yours because you tell like then i would be talking too much you're taking up too much of but you know this is a podcast right Okay.

[150] I'll go into mine.

[151] Get into talking.

[152] Okay.

[153] We talk about the staircase owl theory a lot in the beginning of this show.

[154] I feel like it was kind of, you know, the staircase had just come out.

[155] It's how we first met talking about it.

[156] It was very relevant and kind of pop culture at the time.

[157] People were blown away.

[158] I can't, these notes they give us, that our producers give us, keep saying, like, what do you think now?

[159] And I actually don't remember.

[160] I've gone.

[161] back and forth so many times on whether it's the owl or the husband.

[162] I mean, I was very dismissive of the owl theory being an ornithologist myself.

[163] What's the term?

[164] I just was dismissive of it in the way that it really felt like someone was trying to figure out a way to get somebody off a murder charge.

[165] Yeah.

[166] But having heard, of course, in that time, it explained, like, that idea that tiny feathers were found in her hair and, like, explaining.

[167] Scientists.

[168] Scientific explanations.

[169] Scientific -based explanations.

[170] Can you imagine?

[171] But all of it is like still, you know, that's why we continually talk about not being experts.

[172] It's because we all, just like every average person on the internet, it's all just a bunch of people who read the same article pretending that they know more than other people.

[173] So of course I have no idea and if the owl theory eventually gets proven, I will laugh along the loudest at me for having argued that hard but like to me it seems like of all the possibilities knowing about you know domestic violence or women being murdered in their home it's just like you're pulling out a theory right and the circumstances of their actual life i mean yeah you know what we need is one more documentary just one more throwing it out there i'd watch it for sure that's so fucking lilly did you wait you did watch the series oh my god it was excellent i still haven't i just remembered that right this second i'm so jealous What's it called?

[174] Is it called the staircase?

[175] Yeah, it's called the staircase.

[176] You can watch it on Max.

[177] I'm so jealous of your weekend.

[178] Like this weekend coming up.

[179] Yay.

[180] Wow.

[181] If nothing else, the Rewind series has brought me this piece of information and improved my life.

[182] That's right.

[183] Okay, so we're going to go into my story.

[184] I'm telling the story of Cameron Todd Willingham.

[185] I mean, devastating.

[186] I was telling Georgia earlier, this is one of this.

[187] cases, but I think this case, most of all, I think about this case and this man once a month.

[188] Yeah, me too.

[189] It's crazy.

[190] And because we didn't cite sources back way back when, my sources are the New Yorker, an article called Trial by Fire by David Gran and Wikipedia.

[191] I'll have a couple updates and recommendations at the end of my story.

[192] So here is my favorite murder.

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[213] Goodbye.

[214] As a segue into mine is this person had, like, Led Zeppelin and, like, death metal band posters on the wall, so they were like he's, but I feel like he's early 90s, yeah.

[215] So this, my favorite murder is, a man was tried and convicted and put to death for this murder.

[216] Oh, shit.

[217] But it might probably isn't a murder in the first place.

[218] What?

[219] Have I heard of, oh, my God.

[220] Have I not heard of this one?

[221] That's what I would love.

[222] Okay.

[223] His name is Cameron Todd Willingham.

[224] In the early 90s, he busted out of his house that was engulfed in flames and his three little daughters died in it.

[225] Oh, no. Have you heard of this one?

[226] No. It's like a big, it's a big case about like the Innocent Project and debunking the arson investigator's testimony that ended up being just completely bullshit and wrong.

[227] Oh, no. Dead children.

[228] High stakes, we start out high stakes on this one.

[229] Yeah.

[230] He was fucking but to death for this.

[231] Okay.

[232] Fuck.

[233] Oh, yeah.

[234] Don't mess.

[235] So, yeah, he, and they think that what, how it really started.

[236] So the, the arson investigator said that they found puddles where accelerant would have been and like the, the outline of where the accelerant had been, you know, distributed.

[237] around the apartment or the house because the burns don't happen this way and this is what fires do and here's you know we've been studying this for years and years right but we all saw back draft right exactly so uh it turns out that that's just bullshit and the the neighbors and the firefighters and all the people who initially got there said that he seemed so insanely distraught and was trying to get back into the house but he couldn't because it was on fire and then they later changed their testimony like yeah he was too upset i think it was fake and no he didn't seem upset at all.

[238] He moved his car.

[239] And then they said he moved his, he said he moved his car so it wouldn't explode and add to the fire in the cotton fire.

[240] Right.

[241] I don't know.

[242] But maybe he's guilty though.

[243] I mean, maybe, but so sorry, would he be guilty of wanting his family dead?

[244] Just like, was his wife gone?

[245] His wife was gone at the time.

[246] And he said he was sleeping and heard his daughter say daddy and he, and it was already heavy smoke.

[247] So he left the house with the children inside.

[248] He tried, yeah, he said he tried to get to them, but the firehead originated in their bedroom.

[249] The children?

[250] Yes.

[251] So he couldn't get to them.

[252] And he tried to go back in.

[253] He tried breaking windows.

[254] See, I was like of one mind when you started this story.

[255] That just turned me hard.

[256] Well, here's what they say probably happened.

[257] And I kind of can see this and believe it, that they used space heaters.

[258] Yes, those things are deadly.

[259] Yeah, old junkie space heaters.

[260] that literally are on fire.

[261] The daughter liked to lay near it and fuck with it.

[262] And her fucking blankie probably caught on fire.

[263] And her cheap Kmart polyester pajamas.

[264] Yes.

[265] Wait, this was the 90s?

[266] Yes.

[267] Because when I was growing up, those pajamas were covered in stuff that caught on fire.

[268] How are we not dead from the 80s and 90s?

[269] It's a miracle.

[270] It's like anyone that's my age is a total kind of just a walking miracle.

[271] Yeah, that we got to this point.

[272] No seat belts.

[273] No, you got left home alone all the time.

[274] Can you imagine having a kid and watching them fucking run full throttle into death?

[275] Fuck.

[276] Well, here's the thing.

[277] It's that thing.

[278] Like, it's the moralistic thing of, oh, no man. Which kind of goes back to that, the thing that happened, the last episode when we talked about, we were like, no man would let his wife get raped in front of him or whatever.

[279] It makes me want to say that of like, no man would leave a house where his three children are burning.

[280] Right.

[281] but the instinct to get out to live and the amount of heat I mean think of like the last time you cooked something and like the pan was hot and you touched a pan yeah yeah that's what the walls would have been like if the house is on fire I mean reading his account it sounds like it was it was already up in smoke and he came out got a breath and tried to go back in but just it was walls of black smoke and he couldn't get him what's the poster like the metal posters and stuff what is that a about um there was like an iron maiden poster that had like a skull and cross phones on it and they're like he's satanic and he's a sociopath and here's the proof because he has a like a sword and a heart tattoo on his arm so he's in the cult cultism and satanism and it's just that kind of small that small town shit you know yes and the 90s and now that would be anyone if you went to intelligentsia right now it's like oh so this whole place is filled with satanus although i have a feeling like there's places in this country where you could still get, you know, that's evidence towards you being a murder still.

[282] Yeah, for sure.

[283] Thank God we don't live there.

[284] And also, think of how creepy it would be if you were the fire investigator and you were walking through a burnt house and you see, but, because that's, those people, they're just people and they're just civil servants.

[285] So, like, they go in and see dead children in a room.

[286] They're first responders.

[287] That's a huge emotional reaction.

[288] Yeah.

[289] They look up and see a pentagram poster or whatever.

[290] the thing is.

[291] And they're not thinking, let's not be reactionary or whatever.

[292] They're just human beings going, this whole thing looks like living hell.

[293] Yeah.

[294] Or look at this pentagram.

[295] Let's look for accelerant traces.

[296] And you can find them if you look.

[297] Or, you know, I can't remember how they explained away the accelerant.

[298] Maybe that, oh, they did say something weird that I was like, that there was accelerant in the door frame.

[299] Yeah.

[300] Like lighter fluid.

[301] And when the firefighters came, there was a barbecue grill on the porch.

[302] Maybe that's, it got blasted off and that's how the lighter fluid got there, which sounds like a little fishy, but it couldn't happen.

[303] It totally.

[304] And also, it doesn't sound like they didn't, it wasn't like they were running a tight ship over there.

[305] Right.

[306] It doesn't sound like it.

[307] If you have shitty old space heaters, yeah.

[308] Probably the rest of your house is like a lot of random paper towels in bad places and stuff, right?

[309] I mean.

[310] Oh, there was a refrigerator blocking the second.

[311] door in the kitchen and all this you know it's like but my dad used to talk all the time because my dad was a sanchisco fireman and he would talk constantly about how stupid people were about stuff like at christmas when they're they would not water their tree cover it in lights leave the lights on all night and people and then and everything's next to old curtains or like the people don't even realize or like i'll just take the time right now to tell everybody clean out the limp trap in your dryer every time you do a load of dry, every time you dry a load, because that's the number one way people's houses catch on fire.

[312] You know, when you pull off like that big crazy sweater of lip trap?

[313] Because it's so much fun to see all the line.

[314] It's the, like, right?

[315] And it's like a big, thick thing.

[316] But that's how people's houses catch on fire.

[317] Also, battery.

[318] I heard the thing about batteries.

[319] If you leave like a deep battery out and near another one, they can spark somehow together and light on fire.

[320] Is that true?

[321] Jesus.

[322] It's just the most like crazy way.

[323] Yeah.

[324] I worry all the.

[325] I know.

[326] Well, and some people don't at all.

[327] And that's why shit like that happens.

[328] They're just like, you know, we'll see what happens.

[329] But that's fucked up.

[330] Three little kids died because of that.

[331] Either way.

[332] And in the beginning, his wife was like he's absolutely innocent on his side.

[333] Later, she divorced him and kind of went back and forth between if he was innocent or guilty.

[334] In the end, when he was put to death, she thought he was guilty.

[335] But she went back and forth a couple times.

[336] Yeah.

[337] How could you not?

[338] And also, it's not, you didn't lose one.

[339] child you lost all of your children and now there's uh there's kind of uh backlash because there was a uh there was a prison informant that he shared a cell with um who's now who who testified that this this uh cameron willingham guy uh confessed to the murders but now it's coming that he actually had been like paid with money and less jail time to testify yep and uh yeah jail house uh tests.

[340] Oh, yeah.

[341] Like, it's also in, how do you ever go, no, this guy's really telling the truth this time, though?

[342] Yeah.

[343] This one is trustworthy.

[344] This is it, because it perfectly fits our investigation and what we need to hear right now, and now we have the information.

[345] I have a hard time when, like, in this article that I was reading, it's not in the New Yorker.

[346] It's called trial by fire.

[347] They were saying that, like, his parole officer had said how nice and sweet he was, which I can never, sociopaths are the nicest much charming people.

[348] will ever meet.

[349] So I don't believe any that.

[350] I don't give a shit about Nice.

[351] Nice does not qualify for anything with me because it's the easiest way to be.

[352] Right.

[353] Nice is not a big deal.

[354] I don't like charming.

[355] I'm creeped out by charming people.

[356] Yeah.

[357] Well, they want something.

[358] Right.

[359] I mean, everybody does.

[360] But like if you're going to be, if you're going to put the energy behind being charming, then there's something going on.

[361] There's an agenda at play.

[362] Also, if you feel like you need to please every single person that you meet, you've got a fucking emotional mental issue that.

[363] Yeah, there's something going on right i mean truly at the end of the day give me an asshole and i don't mean that the way you think and want me to make it i didn't think about it until this now yeah but you know what you stand by that i who stand by it in every interpretation no of just like people who are self -possessed enough to not care what other people think or need them need to manipulate what other people think that's what it is it's like i'm going to make you think this certain thing about me Yeah.

[364] That's where, that's the problematic thing.

[365] That scares me so much that I just don't ever believe anyone until I know them well enough.

[366] But I think that's the healthiest way.

[367] Yeah, that's true.

[368] Because I remember being in my 20s and getting tricked by plenty of people who I'm sure were sociopaths or just deep narcissists.

[369] Yeah.

[370] And you kind of, I think eventually you learn, you know, you just start picking up on those signs.

[371] And that's a good thing.

[372] That's what we're supposed to do.

[373] This is my therapy session.

[374] This is it.

[375] Let's like, let's do half murder, half, half a kind of a psychological analysis of how to be.

[376] It's all intertwined, isn't it?

[377] We should tell everyone these, I mean, who else are they going to hear it from?

[378] Right.

[379] There was my story.

[380] Yeah, that was just such a wild miscarriage of justice.

[381] Everything retelling, like all of it, what a great choice to have for your story.

[382] Because really that's like, I think this is what the true, true crime fans that are the hardcore, you know, they don't want any chit -chat, they don't want anything, they want to talk about these cases, they want to go over the facts.

[383] This is what they're looking for.

[384] It's because we, I don't know, there's something about us, true crime people who just want to look at the ugliest side of humanity because we know it's there and I can't bury my head in the sand.

[385] I've never been able to and pretend it's not.

[386] So like show it to me completely.

[387] At that point, I'll be able to handle it.

[388] Or anticipate or be able to recognize in the moment, oh, this is what happened to that person, I'm seeing the same signs or something.

[389] It's like we're telling ourselves that it's going to give us some sort of experience that will help us in the future or save us in the future.

[390] But then this one where no one knows what's going on here and the more people interact with this, the worse it gets, not the better.

[391] That's not what we're used to.

[392] as a story.

[393] Yeah.

[394] So here's some updates.

[395] In 2014, the State Bar of Texas formally accused the state prosecutor overseeing the case, John Jackson, of misconduct.

[396] Specifically, the board accused Jackson of making false statements, concealing evidence and obstructing justice.

[397] There's like a bunch of stuff, including the jailhouse snitch, having been promised favorable treatment, and in return for testimony at Williamham's trial.

[398] And in 2017, a Texas jury found that Jackson had not committed a misconduct.

[399] So since then, the family of Willingham has been seeking a pardon for him.

[400] And it seems like that's still in the process.

[401] There's a 2010 documentary called Death by Fire from Frontline that I highly recommend that tells the story.

[402] And it's just this hole you could fall into finding out more info about the case.

[403] I mean, the idea that the state bar accused the prosecutor, they went through the whole thing.

[404] And then they were like, no, he's not guilty or that didn't happen.

[405] That's one more wrinkle that no one needed on a case.

[406] There's still no satisfaction.

[407] There's still no direct anything.

[408] Awful.

[409] So frustrating.

[410] So we go from there, as is our style, into my story.

[411] So I just want to warn everybody, it's the Oakland County Child Killer case.

[412] Again, murder children, which is really sensitive.

[413] But in this story, I use the outdated term for child sexual assault material.

[414] So I just want to put that out there.

[415] Very difficult story to listen to.

[416] Most people know it.

[417] So here it is.

[418] What's your favorite murder, Karen?

[419] My favorite murder this week is one that I was so, I've been so excited to talk about.

[420] Because this was one of those ones where I went deep Wikipedia one night alone.

[421] And had no, it was too late at night and often, there are not very many friends I have that.

[422] I can be like, yes, what?

[423] Not until I met you.

[424] Yeah, we're the only people that won't text back.

[425] Are you okay?

[426] Are you doing okay?

[427] What's really going on?

[428] So there were these, four kids were murdered in Oakland County, Michigan in the late 70s.

[429] And this whole case was called the Oakland County child killings.

[430] and sounds fucking awesome already right so they found a 12 year old boy kidnapped and raped and smothered and that was the first one um and uh then like a week later at these i i didn't write down i didn't do my super accurate homework but if people are coming here for facts that are in the wrong fucking place yeah and also i it's all off wikipedia so you can get it and really really enjoy it for yourself firsthand but essentially all 11 and 12 -year -old children.

[431] And so it goes, a boy, and then a girl, a 12 -year -old girl was found, kidnapped, not raped, bathed, fed, and then shot point -blank and left in the snow.

[432] How was the first kid killed?

[433] Smothered.

[434] Smothered.

[435] So those aren't the same murderer, probably.

[436] Well, they don't, they probably didn't connect them then.

[437] Okay.

[438] But then the third kid, who was an 11th.

[439] year old boy who was kidnapped and so he was gone for like he disappeared and so on say the seventh day or whatever they went on the parents went on the news and said please um you know bring him home so we can give him his favorite dinner or kentucky fried chicken you know that that thing they do to personalize and the next day they found his body don't tell me he had kentucky fried chicken in his belly.

[440] Rape, smothered with Kentucky fried chickens left in his belly.

[441] No. Exactly what you didn't want to hear.

[442] Oh, my God.

[443] And he was also washed like the girl was.

[444] His nails were trimmed.

[445] His clothes were spotless.

[446] They were washed and pressed.

[447] And his body was still warm when they found it.

[448] So that's when they knew something super terrible was happening.

[449] Oh, my God.

[450] And then the last girl, was 11 and she was she disappeared she was kidnapped and then she was found murdered so the girls were not sexually interfered with and the boys were raped yeah so that was just that was like a big thing that happened and they called they so after they got all that information they called him the babysitter killer which is it's fucked up and almost sweet to him because the way he treated because the way he well because of the way he left them which kind of implies the way he treated them was nice, except for we all know that's not true and imagine.

[451] Because he kept them for a while, which is the nightmare part.

[452] Alive, alive.

[453] So, yeah, so that's horrifying.

[454] So I feel like when you're alive, there's some chance of escape.

[455] Like, there's some hope left.

[456] Yes.

[457] Well, while it's still happening, for sure.

[458] Yeah.

[459] But then it's just that thing of, like, it's the it goes to the total insanity and and I don't know what depravity I wish I knew the difference yes depravity for sure but like when you're really psychotic or whatever where you're keeping the thing you're going to murder like you know this is all the plan and so you're keeping a child like a pet or whatever it's just beyond um but when they started looking at the suspects that were around Oakland County.

[460] One of the people, and this is where I went down the hole, one of the people that was a suspect was like a 24 -year -old rich kid, and his name, oh, shit, I'm not going to find it.

[461] Dang it.

[462] That's okay.

[463] Christopher Bush.

[464] Okay.

[465] So his father was like either the GM or the vice president of one of the huge motor company.

[466] It might have been GM and his father was the vice president of GM or one of those ones.

[467] Hugely rich.

[468] He was always in this big mansion by himself.

[469] His parents were always like working or on vacation or whatever.

[470] And there was a constant stream of young boys coming in and out of the house.

[471] Why?

[472] Because he was a child molester.

[473] So he was paying kids to come over and whatever.

[474] And so he got arrested for sexual assault and child molestation several times.

[475] Like he was known pedophile.

[476] How do the fuck those people stay out?

[477] Because he was rich.

[478] So they always bought him out of jail and cleared him and whatever and tried to do stuff.

[479] So they went and found him and started looking through his room and looking through all his stuff.

[480] And they thought that they found a picture of one of the boys.

[481] I think it was supposed to be Tim, the third one, screaming, like a drawing of him with his hoodie on because I think they said he was found.

[482] in a hoodie or something.

[483] So it was a picture of him with the hoodie looking like he was in total terror.

[484] But they don't know for sure that that's who the face was, but that's what he looked like.

[485] And so it was like, it was the circumstantial evidence.

[486] That's such a small thing to go on though.

[487] Yeah.

[488] And they were trying to put all that together.

[489] But apparently his room was really messy and filled with all kinds of creepy stuff.

[490] And then one of the things that they connected, because apparently so that kid Christopher Bush of, they confiscated eight roles film in his room.

[491] And it was all a kitty porn.

[492] Holy shit.

[493] And then they find out, and this is the thing that stuff like this is what makes me so fascinated.

[494] It piques my interest in it.

[495] It's probably the writer in me where it's like this is such a good story separate from tragedy or whatever.

[496] They figure out that there is an island.

[497] So I guess there's like an island chain up way north in the peninsula area of Michigan.

[498] And one of them is called North Fox Island.

[499] And it was empty, they thought.

[500] And they find out that there is a Christian boys camp.

[501] There's a camp like St. Somebody's for Wayward Boys on North Fox Island.

[502] The only way to get on or off the island is by plane.

[503] There's one airstrip down the center of it.

[504] And that when they go to investigate this island, they find out that, they had set up this fake boys camp to get boys like poor children who would sign up for a place like that so it was like this free thing like come and they were all being used in kitty porn it was just a kitty porn ring it was a kitty porn ring so when they showed up that's what was happening and it was nightmare I mean like that's like a Friday the 13th Freddie Krueger nightmare movie right there so they had all these people that they suspected um And they found a man named Ted Lambertine, who they got on those kitty porn charges where he was definitely involved in that.

[505] There was the ring that they busted in the bad part of Detroit.

[506] He was somehow definitely linked to it or whatever it was.

[507] And this was a thing where a prisoner, a detective from Detroit was out in California interviewing someone about something else.

[508] And then the prisoner was like, I know who your babysitter killer is.

[509] Holy shit.

[510] And says it's Ted Lambertine.

[511] I knew him from this pedophile ring.

[512] He basically pointed to a picture and said, doesn't that look like Tim, whoever, the third little boy?

[513] Oh, my God.

[514] And so that detective went back and went and they started casing this guy who is now 70 and only leaves his house to go to church.

[515] And da -da -da.

[516] And living like this silent old man that no one knows anything about.

[517] And then they'd go into his house.

[518] and they find all this evidence and he will not admit that he was the babysitter killer.

[519] But he first should be like all the evidence points to it.

[520] All the evidence points to that and he and they have him on all the pedophile charges and all the the ring charges and all that.

[521] Does he, when did this happen?

[522] When did he get busted?

[523] 2005.

[524] Oh my God.

[525] Yeah.

[526] So and they, uh, oh, Christopher Bush, the rich kid killed himself in 1978.

[527] So they kind of.

[528] like, assumed it was him because there was all that weird evidence and stuff.

[529] So then the Ted Lambertine thing, they, like, kind of came out of the blue.

[530] So they're arresting the 70 -year -old, and that's how it's ending?

[531] Well, they got him on the other charges, but they can't get him.

[532] They don't have enough hard evidence on those murders, but they're positive.

[533] They lined up because he also, the murder stopped when he moved to Cleveland.

[534] And when he moved to Cleveland, he started going to church every day.

[535] And they think that the priest there knows.

[536] Like, they think he confessed to that priest and the priest isn't saying it.

[537] Yeah.

[538] There's all kinds of things like that that are very clear.

[539] And it was like the days he wasn't at work or the days the children disappeared, all kinds of stuff.

[540] Those are always so interesting to me or like finding out that someone, you know, had someone clock in for them, even though they have an alibi.

[541] And it turns out it's total bullshit.

[542] And here's how they know.

[543] And I just, it's so fascinating.

[544] The detective work that he takes to find that.

[545] And also those poor detectives, like the way your life gets affected by having to go and investigate these people.

[546] I mean, nothing justifies the crazy murdering that's happening on the street of most black people today in America.

[547] I will never, I never, ever mean anything is justified in that way.

[548] What I mean is that when you, like as a detective, when you have to visit time and again, people who are depraved.

[549] So it's not just crime or like I'm desperate and on drugs and so I'm doing this thing.

[550] Or I'm going to fight with my wife and killed her.

[551] Yeah.

[552] It's the depravity of like a child rapist murderer.

[553] They're coming face to face with the actual evil thing, which you and I probably never will unless we search it out.

[554] But these detectives then knock on wood.

[555] But these people have to then delve as deep as they can into it.

[556] And all the facts.

[557] Right.

[558] And not kill them so that they can be brought to justice and have some jailhouse justice and just.

[559] get killed terribly in jail.

[560] That's the ideal.

[561] But them getting even arrested is a small, you know, can't be a huge percentage of them.

[562] So even getting someone arrested has to be hard.

[563] So imagine retiring after never having solved this case.

[564] No, that's terrible.

[565] I know.

[566] And it ruins people's lives to go investigate this stuff and to discover this, like, it's just the seamy underside.

[567] Yeah.

[568] And I only, I surfed it on Wikipedia and was just like, I'm.

[569] mesmerized by how horrifying it is.

[570] Okay, wow.

[571] Yeah.

[572] So that's a heavy one when I'm still completely fascinated by, I think there's the answer out there.

[573] Yes.

[574] Like you've discussed, but it's just never going to be closed.

[575] I don't think it'll be closed.

[576] Well, the people, so clearly this is a thing about the rich.

[577] I mean, what I think is incredible is there was a period of time at Oakland County Child Killer.

[578] It was all supposedly like conspiracy theory about who is.

[579] was responsible and all that.

[580] It was all proven that the Fox Island situation was real.

[581] It was proven.

[582] It did not come out anywhere.

[583] And that millionaire that did it got into his airplane and fucking flew away.

[584] And then basically, culturally, at the time, we were like, oh, that didn't happen.

[585] That's too crazy to happen.

[586] Now we live in the post -Eptstein world where we're like, it absolutely happened and it is still happening.

[587] Totally.

[588] Absolutely.

[589] Absolutely.

[590] There's a really good podcast I want to recommend that came on in 2018 called Don't Talk to Strangers.

[591] And it's like a whole deep dive into this case.

[592] It's great.

[593] Also, just as a, it's kind of a correction, but I did not actually say the names of the victims in this episode.

[594] I can explain that simply in the way that there were some decisions being made on the fly of like, oh, it'll make it less sad or something or it'll, it was a true misunderstanding of kind of the purpose of true crime storytelling and I think it was like oh maybe if we just say a boy a girl it'll make that easier somehow which was just a I was just thinking wrong about it I think we thought it might be less salacious somehow but really it's just like you know not giving the victims the proper respect that they deserve which we didn't really realize at the time correct so the victims in the Oakland County child killer case are Mark Stebbins Jill Robinson Christine Mahalic and Timothy King, and you could say Timothy King's father, Barry, who spent decades searching for justice for his son and died in 2020 with no answers, was also a victim of these crimes.

[595] Yeah.

[596] I was thinking about my use of the term kitty porn in that story and realizing that was the only word anyone used back then to describe that.

[597] That was like the vernacular.

[598] Yeah.

[599] And once you see it, once you hear it in the light of day of like that, it should not have been that way, it's not only how great this evolution of talking about these crimes, talking about victims, talking about all of it, that evolution really is happening.

[600] But on top of that, it just kind of made me realize, like, the people who termed it that in the first place, the reason we're saying it that way, the reason no one cited it is because of kind of the call.

[601] culture that we have been living in for so long that is just seeming to start to change right now.

[602] Which is downplaying, which is ignore.

[603] I mean, it does like make light of this very serious problem that then people don't take seriously.

[604] Or worse.

[605] Sorry to interrupt you.

[606] Or worse.

[607] It is this kind of like, I equate this with porn.

[608] It's just that there's kids in it.

[609] That's the problem with that term.

[610] Right.

[611] Obviously.

[612] And it is, it should have been gone long ago.

[613] Yeah.

[614] Well, that's why we're doing this rewind us to, you know, write some wrongs, to see how far we've come.

[615] Well, and also because all of this, if you listen to any true crime podcast that started, you know, five years ago or further back, all of this is how people speak.

[616] Yeah.

[617] This idea of canceling people retroactively takes everything out of context and immediately assumes bad intentions.

[618] And it assumes things that are actually not true.

[619] And I think it's like if you grew up only ever hearing one term and then you hear the old disgusting term that was fully in use and no one questioned it, you do want to say you're a bad person for saying that.

[620] And we learn and people said you shouldn't use that word or you should use this phrase instead.

[621] And we did.

[622] Oh, they still have, this is kind of important.

[623] The Michigan State Police confirm this case is still an open case and they have a tip line.

[624] And all new tips are investigated as they come in.

[625] And that tip line number is 1 -855 -M -I -C -H -T -I -P, M -H -T -I -P, M -H -T -I -P.

[626] So can I be cynical as fuck for a quick moment?

[627] Of course.

[628] And say that the reason it's still open is so that we don't, the public won't have access to the files.

[629] Because if it's a closed case, then we could put in a freedom of information act to look at the files.

[630] True.

[631] Yeah, that's a good point.

[632] I don't know.

[633] Like it could be exposing.

[634] Yeah.

[635] However, if it's a cold case, it's still going to be open no matter what.

[636] But like it is also like there's a lot of information that we don't have, which is what drives me crazy about cold cases is they understandably keep information back from the public.

[637] Yeah.

[638] But when it's been decades, maybe that a couple of those pieces of information could help lead to, you know, a suspect.

[639] Right.

[640] Right.

[641] It's just, I hate it.

[642] It's horrible.

[643] Yeah.

[644] And also there's so many, there's so many suspects and.

[645] and kind of guilty parties in this story of what is going on.

[646] Yeah.

[647] What I think is exciting, though, is it's not just an open case, but they have a tip line.

[648] Absolutely.

[649] They have a tip line that they're letting people know about.

[650] They're like, please let us know if you know anything.

[651] So that's different than the average cold case, I think.

[652] Definitely, definitely.

[653] You want to add anything?

[654] I don't know.

[655] Just like, try to be nice to people.

[656] Yeah, people don't get murdered.

[657] Like people you don't really know once you see in the grocery store line.

[658] Don't suck for them.

[659] And also just for yourself, like be excited that you're not murdered yet.

[660] And enjoy yourself.

[661] Do what you want.

[662] Don't do what, like, you're someone's telling you you have to do because there's no have to because you never know what could happen.

[663] You never know.

[664] This is really, I mean, when it comes down to it, this is a positive podcast.

[665] Yeah.

[666] But we're trying to lift people out.

[667] Yeah.

[668] And make them their best selves.

[669] And sometimes you lift, we lift each other up by pushing down, The murdered.

[670] Yeah.

[671] It's as if to say it's a celebration of life.

[672] Lechayim to life.

[673] Life and death.

[674] All right.

[675] So let's move from that to what we would have also done differently, which is name these episodes.

[676] Don't shit on the episode names.

[677] We were doing our best with what we had.

[678] This is called My Favorite Thirder.

[679] My Favorite Thurter is pretty good.

[680] It's pretty good.

[681] It's pretty good.

[682] It's pretty good.

[683] Okay.

[684] So we're both going to give each other alternative option names.

[685] if we didn't do number puns, if we had done what we do now, which is get a funny quote from the podcast and use that as the title.

[686] Right.

[687] So we both have a couple.

[688] So one is a walking miracle, which I guess I was referencing how any of us were born like before 1990 are still alive.

[689] That's so true.

[690] Mine is magic talk because that's what I talked about, how blood spatter isn't scientific evidence.

[691] It's fucking magic talk.

[692] It sounds so much like me. I can't even handle it.

[693] Well, it was you.

[694] It was me. 2016 in Georgia.

[695] Bless our heart.

[696] This one is hilarious.

[697] Just be nice to people, the thing I say at the end to you, when you're like, do you have anything else to add?

[698] Just be nice to people.

[699] Just like, wow.

[700] Was I having a hard week or what?

[701] And did we?

[702] It's a good thing we went to stay sexy and don't get murder because I feel like if we had that had been our catchphrase, it would not have caught on.

[703] Be nice to people.

[704] I mean.

[705] Oh, my God.

[706] It couldn't.

[707] It had to happen the way it happened.

[708] It did.

[709] Thank you guys for listening.

[710] We're going to put one of these out a week, turns out.

[711] So we hope you like them and tell your friends.

[712] And oh, please rate review and subscribe.

[713] That really helps us.

[714] Yeah, join us on a look back and a look forward.

[715] The update part of this is so compelling to me. Really cool.

[716] This is fun.

[717] And it's fun to just like, we had no fucking clue what our lives were about to become.

[718] Yeah.

[719] No clue.

[720] Yeah.

[721] And then Hannah Crichton and Asia Hamilton and Alhander Cech went and typed up for us what we were doing.

[722] that got us to this place and now now we can look back.

[723] It's like they typed out a yearbook for us that we can look back on with no pictures.

[724] Sign your buns.

[725] Also just to like, I have to say once you do start hearing back from an audience about all the things you're doing wrong, which rightfully so, it does make you self -conscious and it changes the dynamic and it changes the energy and it's like that part of it too is kind of interesting to me where we were very funny when we thought no one was listening.

[726] Totally.

[727] How it always is.

[728] And then I think my self -consciousness started coming where it was like, of course I knew my own intent, but it doesn't matter because people are sitting there and it's like the impact of what you're saying.

[729] Well, we were very funny to each other, which was the only point of the podcast because we didn't realize there were other people really didn't realize like that many more people that would listen besides us.

[730] Yeah.

[731] And they did.

[732] But you did and you do.

[733] And we appreciate it.

[734] All right.

[735] Well, we'll see you next time.

[736] for episode four next week.

[737] Stay sexy.

[738] And don't get murdered.

[739] Goodbye.

[740] And be nice to people.

[741] Please.

[742] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[743] Meow.