‘Rankly Unfit’: The View From a Republican Who Voted to Impeach

[0] From the New York Times, I'm Michael Labarro.

[1] This is a daily.

[2] There are 211 Republicans in the House of Representatives.

[3] This week, just 10 of them voted to impeach President Trump for his role in the attack on the Capitol.

[4] Today, a conversation with one of them, newly elected Representative Peter Meyer of Michigan.

[5] It's Friday.

[6] January 15th.

[7] So, Congressman, this has been quite a first week for you.

[8] Have you gotten used to being called congressman yet?

[9] I know it's just been a few days.

[10] Yeah, I think the statement that a lot of, especially as freshmen members ask each other, is kind of, you know, when does it hit you?

[11] You know, when does it feel real that, you know, you're part of a governing body at the federal level that you're one of 435 representatives in Congress.

[12] And I have to say when we had to flee an armed mob from the House chambers, everything became real very quickly there.

[13] Well, I'd love for you to take me back to the days before that, Congressman, to January 3rd.

[14] And I can imagine that it's a bit difficult to get back into that headspace with everything that has transpired since.

[15] But if you could go back to that day, that I believe, is that.

[16] the day that you were sworn in as a freshman member of the United States House of Representatives.

[17] What do you remember about that day and how you were feeling?

[18] Yeah, we have an incredibly diverse freshman class, especially a very diverse freshman class of Republicans.

[19] You know, I think we looked around at the group of us who were in orientation and, you know, it looked like America.

[20] And that, you know, felt hopeful.

[21] Like we were here to chart the next path of the Republican Party and of the conservative movement, you know, to work on policy forward, substantive, you know, governing concerns.

[22] I'd had a number of conversations with colleagues during orientation and saying, oh, you're interested in this, well, why don't we partner on that?

[23] You know, that sense of kind of hope and optimism that, you know, here's a way that we can really leave our mark as a, as a class.

[24] You know, that was the hope going in.

[25] Did any one of those conversations stand out to you with your colleagues?

[26] I don't want to betray any private conversations and discussions, but, you know, I think we're seeing political alliances when it comes to policy areas where there's a good amount of overlap, right?

[27] You know, I'm a big proponent.

[28] I've served in Iraq as a soldier.

[29] and spent time in Afghanistan, working in humanitarian aid, I'm a big fan of winding down these conflicts, of putting an end to our forever wars and found colleagues across the aisle and some on my own side too, who also felt very passionately about that.

[30] So I think there was a number of areas, environmental policy, recognizing the realities of climate change and working on ways that we can help stem that tide you know, that would be unimaginable a decade ago.

[31] But I think we're in, you know, a different political reality on a lot of issues.

[32] And to me, there was a great sense of hope that, you know, we could be a class that's coming in with fresh ideas and fresh energy.

[33] So you're someone who was hoping to work across the aisle in the Biden administration.

[34] A Republican who is committed to getting out of wars and combating climate change, which almost by necessity would seem to suggest that you're interested in, trying to build bridges to the other side.

[35] And, you know, holding folks to account where, you know, there are substantive disagreements, but, you know, always looking for a place where it doesn't fall neatly along party lines.

[36] You know, I think that was part of the hope going in.

[37] But really, the first thing anyone was probably going to be paying all that much attention to was this vote that you and your colleagues would have to take on this third day in office, a vote that would ordinarily be a formality to confirm the results of the presidential election, Joe Biden's victory in the electoral college, but which, of course, was very fraught this year, in part because so many of your fellow Republicans, your new colleagues were saying that they would support President Trump and object to the certification of Biden's win.

[38] How much were you thinking about how you were going to cast your own vote coming into that day and about how the rest of your party?

[39] was going to be casting their vote.

[40] Yeah, I mean, that the rhetoric and the narrative in the public was wildly out of step with, you know, what more serious minds were discussing, you know, in the halls of Congress.

[41] You know, a lot of my colleagues, you know, who were planning to object to the Electoral College certification, most of those objections hinged upon an interpretation of article to Section 1, clause three of the Constitution around the time, you know, placed a manner of the elections and how state legislatures, you know, had primacy in determining electoral processes.

[42] Now, it was an argument being made selectively against six states that the president had lost and not being made in, you know, a dozen plus states that he had won.

[43] So I had issues on the consistency, but, you know, a lot of the folks who were arguing to not certify the electoral college results, and specifically Arizona and Pennsylvania ended up being challenged with a senator joining, so they were brought to the floor.

[44] You know, it wasn't that this was a massively fraudulent, stolen election.

[45] You know, it was much more grounded, kind of arcane basis, but, you know, with the understanding that this is an attempt for us to kind of talk more about the process, you know, that was the feeling inside the chamber.

[46] That was for the conversations.

[47] And then, you know, contrast that with President Trump's Twitter account, you know, and you see how kind of two worlds of thought emerged.

[48] You know, the world that said this was actually a landslide victory for Donald Trump, but it was all stolen away and changed and votes were flipped and dominion voting systems and they just kind of go into the fever swamp of conspiracy theories.

[49] You know, that's what that's what a lot of the supporters of the president were told.

[50] And that's where, you know, some could argue, oh, when we meant stop the steel, we just meant, again, we don't like these electoral process modifications, but that's not how it came across.

[51] Well, Congressman, you sound like you're being quite sympathetic toward your Republican colleagues in the House who chose not to certify their results.

[52] Do you think that those arguments and sentiments were genuine on their part?

[53] I think for some, absolutely.

[54] Again, I have disagreements.

[55] I do think some arrived at those conclusions in a genuine way.

[56] You know, it's...

[57] Because I think their support undeniably contributed, along with the president's claims, to a pretty widespread consensus among Republicans that was baseless, right, that the election had been fraudulent.

[58] You really don't think that they were operating.

[59] primarily out of fear of their constituents and of the president in making these objections?

[60] Yeah, I'm not going to speak to what's in their hearts.

[61] I know that I was watching the president's speech on January 6th.

[62] I was watching the speeches that came before it, you know, the threats from members of the Trump family that if we didn't, you know, object and try to change the results, you know, there was a tremendous amount of political pressure.

[63] Going into the electoral college certification, I thought it would be one of the toughest votes of this term because of how many people were calling in and sharing oftentimes easily disprovable Facebook screenshots or sending a report and I say, well, I've read this and I've looked into these citations or I've actually called that clerk and just how much got amplified and it was a kind of a game of factual whack -a -mole.

[64] You know, you would push back on one thing, such as, well, you know, 60 of the 61 cases that the Trump campaign brought, you know, they lost.

[65] And the one they won was very minor and I think it was a temporary stay.

[66] And then the pushback is, well, they were dismissed due to a lack of standing.

[67] Okay.

[68] I mean, that's a response, but that's also not a good response.

[69] Well, here was all the widespread front.

[70] Well, then how come even the president's lawyers were not arguing in court that there was a response?

[71] fraud.

[72] You know, and you just, you know, find me a law enforcement body that has actually substantiated any of this, an investigative body, a court of law, you know, anything that we can point to in a credible manner.

[73] But the point is, I mean, a lot of our constituents, you know, felt that this had been a stolen election because people they look to and trusted told them that it was.

[74] Right, including Congress people.

[75] Including members of Congress.

[76] You seem to be nibbling around the edges of this, but I just want to state it really clearly.

[77] You saw a distinction in what your Republican colleagues in the House were up to.

[78] They were concerned about a process, frankly, mail in voting during a pandemic and whether it was done properly.

[79] But the way their concerns were being interpreted by their voters and alongside the president's public claims was that a massive fraud had been perpetrated.

[80] Joe Biden's victory was fraudulent.

[81] And I just have to say, it feels to me that many of these colleagues of yours must have known that that would be the impact.

[82] That you can't really divorce what they're doing from what the president is doing and say, oh, they had a higher -minded approach to this.

[83] There's a reason why I voted to certify both.

[84] There's a reason why I signed on to a surprisingly, you know, cross -ideological letter stating why we believe that the challenge process was unwise.

[85] You know, I think the individual arguments, I understand how some could make it.

[86] It was when the collective argument became something completely different.

[87] You know, the whole was a more dangerous version of the sum of its parts.

[88] I'm sensing that very early on, you are already figuring out how to navigate your way in a Republican party where you, and your views are in the minority?

[89] You know, there was immense pressure.

[90] And again, I'm not, I don't want this to come across that any one individual's vote was influenced solely by one thing or the other.

[91] You know, but I had colleagues who were resigned to the fact that they may get primaried because they wouldn't vote to object to electoral college certification in one state or another, that this would guarantee them they would fall on the wrong side of an out -of -office Donald Trump, who has hundreds and millions of dollars in the campaign account, I had another colleague who expressed concern about that colleague's family and their safety if he voted to how he were to be interpreted, if he voted to affirm a stolen election.

[92] So I think there was just a ton of pressure from a variety of angles.

[93] I'm myself, I had consigned myself that this would be probably a potentially fatal.

[94] I thought I could survive it, but a potentially fatal political vote.

[95] So that's where you're talking about what led up to January 6th.

[96] I mean, that's where our heads were at.

[97] Because it was certainly, it would put you on the wrong side of an outgoing president who had made it a mission to demand loyalty.

[98] That's a pretty remarkable thing that you had come to the conclusion that your first big vote, a vote to confirm Joe Biden's victory in the Electoral College could basically consign you to becoming a one -term congressman.

[99] It could be the beginning of the end of your career as a lawmaker.

[100] And there was also, you know, a solid 20 months to be able to try to bring it back, right?

[101] So, yeah.

[102] But that's where we were at on that day.

[103] Well, so let's talk about, the rest of that day.

[104] Tell me, from your perspective, what happened on January 6th?

[105] So the day, you know, the day start, I believe I watched in my office.

[106] The, I called a few constituents actually in the morning and made sure that they understood why I was voting to certify, you know, whatever electoral college challenges were brought forward, you know, tried to get the latest on what senators, would actually sponsor what.

[107] I watched the president's speech at the ellipse.

[108] I watched some of the speakers beforehand.

[109] You know, we had had our staff, most of our staff working remotely because we assumed there would be, you know, a large gathering and wanted to keep folks safe.

[110] I had brought a blanket and a pillow and some whiskey and some snacks because I thought this could go all night and thought I might have to sleep in my office.

[111] You know, and I had, spoken to some folks who were coming out to the stop the steel rally and had told them, you know, please, you know, be safe.

[112] You have every right to come and petition.

[113] But, you know, I was worried about the possibility of violence.

[114] More just because of the crowd size.

[115] I definitely, you know, I certainly didn't imagine that what would happen later that day was even a remote possibility.

[116] Okay.

[117] So you have your whiskey, you have your pillow.

[118] You are ready for a long night.

[119] It's in the office.

[120] It's in the office.

[121] Understood.

[122] So what happens?

[123] So we walk over, you know, the vice president gavels in the joint session.

[124] A lot of the members of the House, you know, we have to go up in the Senate gallery or the House gallery.

[125] You know, the senators have a little bit of, you know, primacy on the floor.

[126] They all come marching in.

[127] You know, it starts kind of going through the states alphabetically.

[128] And we knew Arizona was going to be the first one that had been threatened with the challenge.

[129] And then the challenge came.

[130] And then they made an announcement that there were folks who had entered the Capitol.

[131] They didn't know how many.

[132] Shortly later, they said, you know, there's been tear gas deployed in the rotunda.

[133] They told us to grab the inhalation hoods, kind of a gas mask that you put over your head with a filter on it, you know, in the event that there was more smoke or tear gas coming in.

[134] I have no idea how effective they would have been.

[135] You know, that was what our orders were.

[136] And after that, they told us, you know, kind of stay low, you know, get a little bit lower.

[137] You know, they were concerned about the possibility that, you know, someone may try to open fire into the house chamber.

[138] You know, we started to hear banging and had thought that that banging was, you know, the house chamber door is kind of being sealed.

[139] Someone's going out.

[140] They're closing the door again.

[141] and then it became pretty clear that that was people trying to get in to the house chamber.

[142] An order was made to evacuate.

[143] I was up in the gallery, which is kind of a little balcony section that surrounds the chamber with a colleague.

[144] You know, we grabbed our mass. We walked out and went right, hustled into an elevator.

[145] The officer pressed, you know, sub -basement.

[146] You know, we're walking through tunnels.

[147] occasionally we'll see Capitol Police sprinting bias.

[148] We got to, you know, became a group of about 30 or 40 lawmakers that didn't know where were going, didn't know what was safe.

[149] You know, eventually, after about 20 or 30 minutes, we wind up in one room, which ironically was the same room.

[150] I got my COVID shot on Monday.

[151] And then we're in there, closing the blinds, stay quiet, don't tell anyone where you are on your phone.

[152] You know, after 15 minutes, some police officers come and say, we're going to escort you to to another room, and eventually we gather in a committee hearing room, and that's where most of the members of the house who had been on the floor at the time, that's where we were sheltered for several hours.

[153] I'm mindful that you have a background in the military.

[154] Was that informing at all how you were digesting all of this?

[155] You know, none of us had weapons.

[156] You know, the thought that just went through my mind as we're walking is what happens if we turn a corner and there's 15 or 20 folks rushing towards us.

[157] What happens if this angry mob encounter, you know, a bipartisan group of lawmakers, some Republicans who voted who were going to vote to certify, some who weren't, I had already had colleagues that had death threats against them because of their voting.

[158] to certify.

[159] They said they were going to vote to certify.

[160] I had colleagues who had been harassed on the streets by folks who accused them of trying to affirm a rigged election.

[161] You know, I don't know what would have happened.

[162] I mean, that was our concern.

[163] But, you know, the only thing I could really control and what I give a lot of my colleagues credit for is we, you know, made an effort to stay calm, made an effort to make sure that we were reassuring folks who were rightly panicked at the circumstance and that we just stuck together.

[164] You know, a couple of our colleagues, I remember at every turn, we'd both kind of make eye contact, and it was clear we're all, you know, very subtly saying, you know, we're together.

[165] Okay, I got you.

[166] Buddy check, buddy check, buddy check.

[167] We now know, Congressman, that some of your Democratic colleagues were at that point already starting to think about and even draft the article of impeachment holding President Trump accountable for what was happening to you all.

[168] I wonder if the question of blame and of the president's role in this attack on the Capitol was something that you were starting to think about that early on.

[169] You know, like I said, I'd watched his full speech.

[170] I had watched him call those of us who were going to vote to certify weak Republicans.

[171] You know, I think that was part of his charge to the protesters, the folks who were marching over, was to have them.

[172] you know, force us to have a little bit of courage.

[173] I mean, you know, we had seen that type of language.

[174] And then, you know, to me, the breaking point was when the president's video came out at 4 .17 p .m. I, we were in this committee hearing room.

[175] It had been probably 90 minutes that we were in there.

[176] Nobody knew what was going on.

[177] So, I mean, we were very much on kind of tenter hooks.

[178] and his video comes out and it's just kind of almost thanking the people.

[179] His tone was appreciative, it was supportive.

[180] He gave a little, okay, like go home, you know, but there was, you know, you're special.

[181] We love you.

[182] Look at what great thing.

[183] I mean, I just remember watching that video and that was a moment where if ever there was a time for leadership, for visible leadership.

[184] If there was anybody who could have stopped or put an end to the violence that was occurring, if there was ever a time where the country in this chaotic moment where people are glued to the screens watching just insane footage of police being beaten, you know, that was the time for a president to take center stage, you know, to assert law and order, to say enough is enough.

[185] And instead, we got that video.

[186] I just, that was a kick in the stomach.

[187] In that moment, did you think about impeachment?

[188] In that moment, I thought the president immediately disqualified himself.

[189] I thought that every creditable accomplishment all the efforts towards peace deals in the Middle East, all of the economic revitalization that occurred pre -COVID, you know, Operation Warp Speed, all of that, which could have been, you know, could have cemented him some very favorable comments in the history books, got wiped away.

[190] It erased all of that.

[191] Because the images from that day, that said everything.

[192] So at a certain point, the Capitol is cleared, and the decision is made that you and your colleagues can return to the House instead of Chambers to finish this certification process.

[193] Did you think that what had happened there might change the minds of any of your Republican colleagues, who had planned to object to the certification of Biden's win?

[194] I had hoped that folks would see I mean, just the fire that was being played with.

[195] And I think several senators did.

[196] I mean, many of the objections that had been raised were withdrawn.

[197] But not many House members.

[198] there were a handful and you know i get it i mean the names were signed right the statements have been put out they've been talking about it on social media it wasn't the easiest thing to to undo but um let me put it this way there were a number of folks who got up on the floor and gave the same speech, you know, that night while there was a crime scene investigation and a dead woman's blood drying, you know, a couple of feet outside the door, they were given the same speech that evening that had written this morning.

[199] Maybe a throwaway line about condemning political violence.

[200] But, I mean, just the dissonance.

[201] It was staggering.

[202] Right.

[203] Let me ask you this.

[204] were you disappointed by the number of House colleagues who, after what had just happened that day, after their own lives had been threatened, went on and voted to object to Biden's win?

[205] I think there was just a disbelief.

[206] I get the sense that sometimes, especially if you're running in a decision, district where winning the primary means you win the general.

[207] You get these feedback loops and where...

[208] But you're talking politics, and I get that, but I'm asking if you in your heart of hearts were disappointed.

[209] Yes.

[210] Yes.

[211] Can I go back to politics?

[212] What do you remember thinking as you went to sleep that night?

[213] after that very, very long day.

[214] I mean, I don't even know if it was night when you eventually got to sleep.

[215] I felt in immense sense of pride that we had reconvened.

[216] That the message being sent was we're not going to let you take this, right?

[217] We're not going to be scared away.

[218] We may have had to flee before, but right now, we are here to finish the job before us and uphold our constitutional responsibilities.

[219] You know, I was angry.

[220] I was, you know, just had this, I mean, just this heartbroken feeling over everything that had happened that day, but still a sense of pride that we, you know, we didn't let that, you know, ruin the constitutional process.

[221] You know, there were windows broken, in the house chamber and we're still there finishing the job.

[222] They're cleaning up the glass.

[223] You know, I went back and tried to take an elevator and, you know, I'd say, you know, you can't take this elevator.

[224] It opens into an active crime scene, right?

[225] So, you know, by the time that day was done, you know, just fell asleep on my couch around, on the couch of my office around 4 .30 a .m. And didn't know what the days ahead would look like.

[226] Well, Congressman, did you drink any of that whiskey?

[227] Yes.

[228] A couple of colleagues, you know, we had, I think there were nine freshmen and we, who voted to certify both states, Republican freshmen, who voted to certify Arizona and Pennsylvania.

[229] So we all shared, it was, well, sky.

[230] Gotch, actually.

[231] I had whiskey, but the staff finished the whiskey earlier in the evening.

[232] We'll be right back.

[233] So almost immediately, attention turns to the question of impeachment.

[234] And so how did you approach the question of your own vote?

[235] Because you mentioned that you felt that by the end of January 6th, the president had disqualified himself.

[236] But this would be a very public form of rendering your feelings about him.

[237] I mean, I had, well, to say I'd gotten outspoken is probably a little bit of an understatement.

[238] I had said some things that were unprintable to a reporter, and that I thought the reporter would, you know, put little characters, you know, ampersands and whatever, but printed in full.

[239] the political reporter asked me how are you feeling and i said do you want me to be honest she said yes and i said what is your publication stance i'm printing profanities and she said they were a family publication so i said in that case i'm fucking livid now the only thing that made it in the article was what is your stance i'm printing profanities and then the profanity but um but no and i had expressed my feelings that the president had disqualified himself, that his actions that day were rankly unfit.

[240] And I kept waiting.

[241] I kind of an old -fashioned view on leadership, you know, where you take accountability for happens.

[242] You know, even if you didn't directly do it, if it happened under your watch, if it was something that you contributed towards, I mean, you take accountability.

[243] And it just was left waiting.

[244] You know, the article, I think there were a couple of different impeachment articles that were drafted, the one that Speaker Pelosi ended up selecting.

[245] You know, we saw that, I believe it was Sunday night and read through it.

[246] And a lot of the folks who had worked through and tried to understand the electoral college process and kind of pressure test that from all angles, you know, we're trying to run ideas by each other and say, well, here's kind of what I'm thinking.

[247] and what else should I be considering?

[248] I mean, there's no precedent for figuring out what a seven -day impeachment looks like for a president who arguably incited an insurrection that ransacked the Capitol.

[249] So I'm not going to lie.

[250] I haven't slept a lot.

[251] I haven't eaten a lot.

[252] I'll go through a day and realize that, you know, I had one meal.

[253] You know, I mean, this, it's, it was honestly a sickening feeling of walking towards this moment and knowing that I could try to convince myself that the timing's not right.

[254] I could try to convince myself that, you know, even though it's a political process, that, you know, we should still have more opportunity for due process.

[255] I could try to convince myself that, well, it's not going to change the timing when the president's leaving office.

[256] You know, I could, I tried to convince myself of that, and I, I just couldn't.

[257] I respect my colleagues, you know, who take those positions.

[258] But in my heart of hearts, I just couldn't.

[259] So you tried to talk yourself in a way out of voting to impeach, but then you kept coming back.

[260] Oh, and then I kept talking myself into voting.

[261] I mean, it was, I didn't want to think about what, you know, some folks have said, well, this is just going to lead to more divisiveness or we're worried that if we do this, there might be something bad might happen.

[262] I didn't want to give the insurrectionist veto.

[263] didn't want to give the assassins veto, didn't want to give the heckler's veto, or the primary challengers veto.

[264] And I kind of came back to the fact where reading the article of impeachment, you know, was that, to the best of my knowledge, an accurate summation of what occurred and is impeachment an appropriate remedy to send the signal that the president's actions and behavior were unconscionable?

[265] And at the end of the day, I had to say yes to both.

[266] Mm -hmm.

[267] You know, it is not lost on me that I'm not only occupying a seat that was most recently held by a member who voted to impeach Donald Trump after leaving the Republican Party.

[268] Right, Justin Amash.

[269] But also a seat that, you know, from 1948 to 1973 was held by Gerald R. Ford.

[270] president ford he he showed grace and he showed political courage in pardoning richard nixon um and that that decision you know cemented his his defeat it was reviled at the time i think historians will generally agree that it is now viewed as you know one of the most important moves if not the most important move to get the country past watercate and to try to heal you know but in that case I mean, President Nixon had resigned and he had accepted responsibility for the actions that led to his resignation.

[271] So I had this desire to show grace and say that we have to move forward, but I mean, the fact that I still had colleagues saying it was a stolen election, the fact that the president was still saying that, the fact that the president hadn't accepted any responsibility, you know, to me, unity has to come after it has to come after accountability.

[272] If we just try to paper over these divides, they're still going to be there.

[273] You know, if you don't let that wound air out, if you don't, you know, clean it, it's going to fester.

[274] And again, I respect, you know, colleagues who think differently because it's something that I go back and forth on.

[275] But again, in my heart of hearts that if we don't tackle this head on, if we don't look to, you know, to get people who believe that Dominion voting systems and Hugo Chavez and North Korean ballots and QAnon, if we don't have leaders who start to tell them what they need to hear and not just what they want to hear, then we're in deep trouble.

[276] And whether we face that trouble now or in 20 years, I would much rather bite that bullet and have, you know, a moment of reckoning with reality in 2021, then push that off because otherwise it's just inevitable.

[277] And I don't want to be back on January 6th ever again.

[278] I think what I'm hearing you say is you are a person who aspires for grace and forgiveness once there is punishment and accountability.

[279] Michael, it's almost like you can put words in my mouth.

[280] That's great.

[281] No, I mean, 100%.

[282] I mean, that's where I believe in forgiveness, you know, but it can't just be blanket tolerance and it can't be tolerance of an assault on the Capitol.

[283] Five people are dead.

[284] I mean, a Capitol police officer was bludgeoned to death with a fire extinguisher.

[285] I mean, this, I think there's a lot of folks who want to move on because staying here forces introspection.

[286] that is painful.

[287] And I think that introspection is necessary.

[288] I think that that interrogation of how we got to this point, understanding that.

[289] And I'm not just talking about the legal investigation, you know, that the Department of Justice opened.

[290] I'm not talking about what the FBI is doing.

[291] I mean the actual honest to goodness, you know, look in the mirror and say, is there something I did that contributed to this?

[292] You know, I look in the mirror and say, I should have pushed back earlier on claims.

[293] it was a stolen election, right?

[294] I had the fig leaf of, and I truly believe this, but saying, you know, every candidate has a right to mount legal challenges.

[295] The rhetoric was irresponsible, but, you know, until that electoral college, you know, safe harbor date, you know, that was the day that I said that, you know, Joe Biden was going to be president -elect, that he would be our next president.

[296] I think it was a month after the election and I was still one of the first handful of Republicans to say that.

[297] If that's a regret that you are voicing now, can you more forcefully say that you think that your colleague should have gone further as well?

[298] You know, I don't I don't want to speak for how others arrived at their decisions.

[299] The colleagues that I think have betrayed their oath, those that I think you know, should feel a sense of responsibility and shame, you know, are not the ones who, you know, found an argument and use that argument to vote in a way that I disagreed with, you know, but those who had been repeatedly, energetically, and emphatically lying to people who looked to them, who trust them, and who supported them.

[300] that to me is contemptible.

[301] You are in a very unique position where you're experiencing up close just how difficult it seems it's going to be for the United States to come back from this to have unity, when, as you say, there are many people who believe in their heart of hearts that you betrayed a president fighting to save democracy.

[302] When you see your action as its own fight on behalf of democracy?

[303] I think it's hard.

[304] The emotional attachment, the feeling that a lot of the most fervent supporters of the president, the feeling that they had was that this was finally a leader who cared for them because the same people they felt looked down on them and hated them, looked down on and hated Donald Trump and that sense of alienation, that sense of isolation, that is something we have to grapple with.

[305] I mean, the people who think that, and then Plenty make this argument, and I think it's true, the people who think that Donald Trump somehow created the situation we're in, I mean, this was somebody who saw Elaine and the trends were there.

[306] My charge, the thing that I want to do, the thing that is even harder to do today because of the vote that I cast yesterday is to be able to reach out and connect with those people and say, you know, there is a home, you know, but we need to get on the same set of facts.

[307] And I'm not judging, you know, how you arrive at your position.

[308] the people I judge are the leaders who misled those masses.

[309] The amount of fundraising off of Stop the Steel.

[310] Hundreds of millions of dollars.

[311] And what, 10 million spent on legal challenges?

[312] Again, I'm not exactly a, you know, a Pollyanna -ish individual.

[313] When I was in Iraq, I was an interrogator, right?

[314] I mean, that was, I interrogated folks.

[315] because I mean it was you know mostly giving them cigarettes and having conversations there was nothing nothing that violated anything but you know in Afghanistan you know I dealt with some really awful situations you know I'm not sitting there looking at you know humanity is as being some you know bright shining um you know paragon of excellence um but it just it astounds me I am astounded by the sheer, just malevolent cynicism that I've seen.

[316] And to me, I mean, that forcing that cynicism out into the open, forcing it to have a reckoning, you know, there are some folks who were pounding the table on Stop the Steel and all of a sudden were like, well, I never, of course Joe Biden won the election.

[317] Okay, well, can you be a little bit more clear there, right?

[318] I mean, you need to tell your supporters who trusted you.

[319] You need to walk them through.

[320] You know, if you believe this, tell us why.

[321] And if you don't believe that now, tell them why.

[322] Because the fact that so many have lost faith in the media, they've lost faith in every prevailing institution, it's not good for the country.

[323] It is not a picture that ends well.

[324] Let's talk for a moment about the possible consequences of these divisions that you're describing.

[325] Because you certainly know this.

[326] The FBI has pretty explicitly said in the past 48 hours that as a result of all of the threats and violence that have happened in the past week, that the homes of Congress people are considered targets right now.

[327] Do you fear for your safety?

[328] I am aware that I am living under an increased threat posture.

[329] You know, I...

[330] When I was in Afghanistan, I lived essentially by myself.

[331] I mean, I had some unarmed guards who opened the gate, but in downtown Kandahar City, right?

[332] I mean, I was very aware that there was a latent risk out there and there were things I could do to raise my risk profile and increase the likelihood that someone tried to kill or kidnap me, and there are things I could do to try to lower that.

[333] Now I'm thinking through that same process and realizing, you know, I knew that those of us who voted to certify would have a bit of a target on our back.

[334] I never thought that impeachment was in the realm.

[335] But, you know, I think there were 70, 80 of us who voted to certify out of the Republicans in Congress who voted to certify both, there are 10 of us who voted for impeachment.

[336] Right.

[337] It's a small number.

[338] It's a very small number.

[339] I've already had someone call me. We're planning to show 1 ,000 people, 2 ,000 people up at your house this weekend.

[340] I don't know how you fit that on my block.

[341] I'm not even there.

[342] But the last thing I want to do, because, I mean, I understand the risk that I'm taking for myself, but I don't want to put any of my family members in that position because, you know, if there are consequences that I should be the one, you know, to suffer that.

[343] But, and then maybe it's because I'm kind of a, I'm a little stubborn this way.

[344] Not to be too flippant, but I've said this to folks to try to cheer them up in different places, you know, but if no one's trying to kill you, you know, do you even matter?

[345] That's pretty dark humor.

[346] I mean, okay, and I'm telling this to folks in, you know, Afghanistan who are dealing with death threats and trying to figure out if this is just a disgruntled employee or, you know, are they going to wind up in Waziristan, right?

[347] So, if anything, I mean, it shows that there's something, there's something there's something they're worth fighting for.

[348] And I, you know, this process is this first, this first 10 days, oh, 11 days now.

[349] Yeah, it's just been an exercise in finding people who, and I think I've used this word to describe like one or two people in my entire life, but who are truly patriots who have given no consideration to their political fortunes, little consideration to their personal safety, and every consideration to, you know, their oath, of office and their loyalty to the Constitution.

[350] Given everything that's happened and everything you know now, what do you want your Republican Party, the one you're in to look like for the next 18 months, two years of your term?

[351] What do you want to represent?

[352] What do you want it to be?

[353] What do you want it to do, given what we have just been through?

[354] I want it to be honest with itself.

[355] I wanted to hold, you know, those who were responsible for what happened on January 6th, accountable.

[356] I wanted to rebuild trust with its supporters and have those supporters be able to trust their institutions.

[357] I think that when I could talk about accountability, I mean, that's what I'm talking about, is that the folks who have profited and seeing electoral success based on this, this moment, but in ways that have, have, you know, fundamentally damaged the electorate and those who supported them, right?

[358] And I'm not, this is not a broad side against all of my colleagues, but, you know, there are folks who are, who just, you know, that I don't know they could, like, sit and meditate, because I don't know what type of thoughts would kind of come in, right?

[359] I mean, the people who are always in motion because, you know, I shouldn't try to armchair analyze, but I just hope we can take the steps necessary to be able to earn the trust of the voting public.

[360] Because without that, yeah, what do you have?

[361] I'm thinking again about your predecessor, Justin Amash, who left the Republican Party.

[362] Do you think, Congressman, that there could come a day where you have to decide if the Republican Party is actually the right party for you?

[363] And this is where our approaches differ.

[364] I'll fight like hell or high water to get my party to where it needs to be.

[365] I already know who I'm going to have to fight for it and I should be very clear I mean in the sort of rhetorical political sense right but you know to me I mean it's those the foundationary principles work they work a cult of personality those organizations don't last very long there is a natural expiration date and the charge is to make the party one that can be sustainable.

[366] That is not going to run off a cliff.

[367] Well, Congressman, I really want to thank you for making time for us and for a very thoughtful conversation.

[368] We appreciate it.

[369] Thank you, Michael.

[370] I appreciate it.

[371] Have a wonderful day.

[372] You too.

[373] We'll be right back.

[374] Here's what else you need to know today.

[375] The Times reports that the U .S. Capitol Police is in crisis, with 17 officers under investigation for their conduct during the attack, including one who took selfies with rioters and another who directed rioters inside the Capitol.

[376] A congressional committee is investigating how the Capitol Police prepared for and handled the riot, accusing it of, quote, systemic failure.

[377] And it's not hard to see that we're in the middle of the once -in -several generations economic crisis with the once -in -sever -generations public health crisis.

[378] On Thursday, President -elect Joe Biden proposed a $1 .9 trillion relief package aimed at combating the coronavirus and the economic crisis it has caused.

[379] There's no time to waste.

[380] We have to act and we have to act now.

[381] The package includes more than $400 billion to speed up vaccine distribution and school reopenings, $350 billion to assist state and local governments with budget shortfalls, and direct stimulus payments to many Americans of $1 ,400.

[382] The Times reports that the scope of the plan could make it a challenge to pass in the Senate, even with a narrow democratic majority.

[383] Today's episode was produced by Jessica Chung, Leslie Davis, Luke Vanderplug, and Daniel Guimet.

[384] It was edited by Lisa Tobin and Mike Benoit and engineered by Chris Wood.

[385] That's it for the daily.

[386] I'm Michael Babarro.

[387] See you on Tuesday after the holiday.