#737 - Lance Armstrong

[0] Yeah.

[1] And we're live, ladies and gentlemen, Lance Armstrong.

[2] How are you, buddy?

[3] Good, man. Thanks.

[4] Thanks for doing this.

[5] Yeah, appreciate it.

[6] Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it, for real.

[7] And, you know, you were just telling me before this, we were talking about social media.

[8] And social media, the greatest part about social media is you get in contact with everybody.

[9] The worst part about social media is that you get in contact with everybody.

[10] Right.

[11] It's a tiny percentage of people that won't let it rest.

[12] Like, I was looking at something that you posted.

[13] and it was something about some, like, you had a great time doing some race.

[14] And, like, one of the first tweets, one of the first comments was, yeah, as good at times as running away from drug tests.

[15] Yeah, or, yeah, I mean, that's right.

[16] You're just going to have, I mean, what did we?

[17] I mean, I posted the other day we were putting our Christmas tree up.

[18] My family, you know, all the kids there and Anna and, you know, the lights and the ornaments.

[19] And it's the fucking Christmas.

[20] tree and you know of course most people love it they think it's a cute picture but then there's always the one you know is the tree juiced or or something i mean there's just always which i get i mean that's just part of it yeah but sometimes you're like come is that the best we got like yeah i mean maybe that is maybe i deserve i don't know but it's like give it a rest sometimes well you definitely deserve some of it right yeah for sure there's no way around of course of course This, but it's also, I think one of the things about this whole scandal, the whole thing, it illuminated the real issue.

[21] And the real issue is the entire, and this is what we're talking about, Bill Bird did that thing on Conan, where he was saying, the fucking whole sport is like this.

[22] It's not, there was, at all the people that won the Tour de France and all the years that you did it, if you go back to people that either weren't implicated or didn't test positive, like what is it, like 18th place?

[23] or something fucking crazy like that?

[24] You know, that's probably generous.

[25] Yeah, right?

[26] It would be, it would be hard to know that.

[27] And, look, Joe, these are all easy for me to sit here and say and talk about.

[28] And people would say, well, of course he says that.

[29] Right.

[30] Of course he thinks that.

[31] Well, it's all out on the table now.

[32] I mean, you really don't have anything to gain.

[33] But is it?

[34] It is.

[35] Isn't it?

[36] it's um well i guess it is but you know people don't want to talk about that i mean people want to talk about my issue and that's i guess also understandable um but like it was it was a fucked up time and and you had this you were at this crossroads of of a very hard sport uh a very hard event some would say one of the hardest sporting events in the world three weeks 2 ,500 miles conditions terrain etc etc so that meets really the perfect drug.

[37] I mean, you have a drug that's incredibly beneficial, and at the time, totally undetectable.

[38] And everybody dove in.

[39] And so nobody wanted to be in that position.

[40] It's not like any of us growing up as kids thought, dude, I'm going to go to Europe and get all doped up and try to win bikers.

[41] No, nobody wanted to be there.

[42] Like we all went with pure intentions.

[43] We got there, and we're like, and I'm talking about this crop of Americans that went to Europe, and the shit was messy.

[44] And we're like, whoa, like, okay, do we go home or do we stay and fight?

[45] And literally almost everybody stayed and fought.

[46] And they fought, you know, we fought the way that the fight was being fought.

[47] And, you know, and that all meets with where we are today and the people who we're there, I think, can speak to it.

[48] Me, my teammates, my peers, my rivals, the competition.

[49] And we have a unique perspective on it because we were in the war.

[50] But the person on Main Street, right, the corner of Maine and first, wasn't there and they don't understand it.

[51] And so they can't really speak to it.

[52] But that doesn't change the fact that they're disappointed.

[53] They're really disappointed.

[54] They're disappointed me. They're disappointing the sport.

[55] They might hate me. They might hate the sport.

[56] They were most likely defenders of mine.

[57] And so they're pissed off.

[58] And I, you know, it's taken me a long time to really understand that.

[59] But I'll spend the rest of my life trying to, trying to work that one out with that person.

[60] And I don't, you know, they're out there.

[61] There are millions of them.

[62] So, um, well, they have a legitimate point, but there's also So there's people out there that want you to be wrong and want you.

[63] They want to find someone who's done something bad and never let it go.

[64] And I think there's definitely some of that going on.

[65] And there's also people that they don't have a lot of sympathy for people who've been extremely successful and have made mistakes.

[66] Like it gives them the green light to just decide to just continually attack you.

[67] But what I tried to do when this whole thing was going down is I tried to put myself, in your position like you're this world -class biker it's 1994 and that's right around when you started uzPO 95 95 so around this time when you realized that was 20 years ago 20 years ago it's kind of crazy right crazy when you realize that this that pretty much all the best guys are doing this now what is that feeling like when you're like okay i've got to cross over into this deceptive territory now all of a sudden i'm i have to lie about this i have to hide this and have to be a part of this sort of underground thing this underground aspect that's a part of this great sport right well we we held off as long as we you know i mean the you know EPO came along in the early 90s um we sort of got to europe in 92 93 um and then it's it by at that point by 94 it's you know full on and we're thinking okay this isn't good but surely they're going to have a test for this for EPO and we waited we waited and it just never came and then then we get to 95 there's tremendous pressure on the team within the team we're losing the sponsor will the sponsor renew the team wants results and we're going all right we're We're really fucked here.

[68] And so we all collectively made the decision in spring of 95 that, all, we have to go play ball.

[69] The first time you shot that stuff, what was that like?

[70] No, it's not, it's, it's, it's not like, I knew you were going to ask these questions.

[71] It's not like that, it's not like, it's not like a, no, I don't mean like, like cocaine or, or, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not.

[72] I didn't mean it that way.

[73] I meant, was there a feeling like, oh, fuck, we've crossed it.

[74] into this land of cheating?

[75] It was so long ago.

[76] I mean, that would have been, that was 21 years ago.

[77] So it's, or 20 years ago, it's a little tough to remember exactly, you know, and also, too, I mean, it wasn't as if there were other things we did before that.

[78] I mean, their, EPO is this hugely powerful drug.

[79] But there was, you know, we sort of call them gateway drugs.

[80] I mean, if EPO is, you know, is the, you know, method.

[81] of performance enhancing drugs.

[82] I mean, there's marijuana, too.

[83] There's a lighter sort of entry -level stuff.

[84] Like, what was the entry?

[85] What was the first stuff?

[86] Well, cortisone is there.

[87] And that's just to relieve pain.

[88] Yeah, or just, yeah.

[89] I mean, it is, but it also works for racing bikes.

[90] How does it work for racing bikes?

[91] Well, it's such a strong anti -inflammatory that with that, you just inevitably, you feel better.

[92] Whether it's physically you feel better, a certain, even just a euphoria that comes with that, that's, you know, and who knows what, you know.

[93] But at the same time, you have, you have a drug that, you know, I love it when you, when, you know, in cycling, if you took cortisone, you would be, you would be banned.

[94] However, you know, you watch, you know, the NFL and somebody gets, gets banged up in the first half, they go in at halftime, they come out, you know, the announcer says, they went in, they got to, They got a cortisone injection.

[95] They're going to play the second half.

[96] They rush for 100 yards.

[97] They win the game.

[98] They're hero.

[99] It's like, wait a second.

[100] Yeah.

[101] So it is what it is.

[102] It is weird.

[103] It's weird.

[104] We've talked about that a bunch of times with me and my friends.

[105] Like when you go to GNC or, you know, like the UFC has this company muscle farm, which sells a bunch of supplements and things along those lines.

[106] But yet they ban performance -enhancing drugs.

[107] Like, what do these supplements do?

[108] Well, they enhance you in some way.

[109] But it's like a certain level will allow.

[110] We'll allow a certain level of improvement, certain level of aid and recovery, but anything past that is cheating.

[111] Well, it's all performance enhanced.

[112] A nap is performance enhancing.

[113] Vitamins.

[114] It's all.

[115] So we know that.

[116] But there also, too, has to be.

[117] And I don't want to be critical of whether it's the UFC's efforts to combat doping or USADA or.

[118] or water or anybody or any major sport, you have to draw the line somewhere.

[119] Right.

[120] And I get asked that all the time because people get frustrated with the issue.

[121] And they kind of throw their hands up and say, well, look, we should just, it should just all be legal.

[122] And, you know, they said that to me. And they're thinking, I'm going to go, yeah, you're right.

[123] But you can't, that's not the answer either.

[124] There has to be a structure in place.

[125] There has to be a line.

[126] It might, that line might seem weird or fuzzy to people sometimes, but shit, you have to have something.

[127] And so, dude, it's tricky.

[128] I mean, anytime you mix athletes that are super motivated with money, with pressure that comes with that temptation that comes with that, you know, people are for the rest of, I mean, come on, I mean, the original Olympic games they were, there was going on.

[129] So you have to think that it's going to happen forever.

[130] the substances will change over time but um just unfortunately that's part of the game so the original riders like way back in the early days of the tour de france before they had drugs they were using alcohol you know there's all there's a lot of stories about um whether it's alcohol cocaine um crazy substances but but at the same time you had guys the tour de france is 100 years old right so uh doping is cheating we know that but there's other ways i mean guys would hang on to cars.

[131] Guys would get in trains.

[132] They would, yeah.

[133] There were guys, they would take a cork out of a wine bottle, and they would put, this is fucking crazy, they would have fishing string in the cork, right?

[134] So, wired up, and they would have it, you know, they'd have a car up the road, and they'd put it in their teeth.

[135] Oh, my God.

[136] And it would be, you know, just a subtle pull.

[137] I mean, they, you know, any way to get ahead.

[138] I mean, this is, you know, the, the sport is just that.

[139] It's a brutal sport, and you're not getting your face pounded in like UFC, but you certainly feel like you're getting your face pounded.

[140] Well, psychologically, it's almost more devastating because it's so grinding.

[141] When you're talking about something that goes three weeks and it goes, is it 2 ,200 or 2 ,500 miles?

[142] Is that what it is?

[143] About 2 ,500.

[144] That's insane.

[145] That's an insane amount of time to be pushing your body.

[146] 100 miles a day.

[147] But once you get to the top level, it's remarkable how efficient it is.

[148] I mean, you have 200 guys going down the...

[149] road on a normal day if it's a flat day and there's not wind or crosswind or rain or you know the conditions it's pretty easy to be honest i mean it's conversational the final is tough and the final gets fast and people are competing for the stage win but um it's not you know those three weeks aren't like three weeks on the line i mean on you know in the red line so you have to pace yourself the the peloton paces itself like the you know they sort of pace and police for of a better word itself and when and obviously the mountains and the time trials right or where the race is decided and those are the hardest moments when they first started introducing uh things like when they started using transfusions and things along those lines how much of an improvement did it have on the times well you know it's it's it's hard to say because the times are you know people look at our era they look at my generation and they say okay well the times must be, you know, significantly faster.

[150] I mean, but you can't compare cycling to track and field or cycling to another sport that's had had a rough patch and is now trying to clean itself up because technology changes, road surfaces change, obviously training has changed, but, I mean, if you go back to the 84 games right here in Los Angeles, that was really the first major exposure you had for transfusions, which the American team did in Rolling Stone.

[151] exposed it.

[152] But a transfusion is just a, was an old school, EPO replaced that, right?

[153] Because you had, a transfusion is just adding red cells to your system, which carries oxygen and gives you more oxygen.

[154] Then you had a drug came along that did that for you.

[155] So you didn't have to extract the blood, you didn't have to put it back in.

[156] It made it, you know, it made it a lot easier.

[157] And then won the test, when they refined the EPO test and ultimately came up with it, then people went back to the old school system.

[158] So, and then came other ways to detect that through, not so much through a test, but just through what they call the biological passports.

[159] So just studying parameters in your blood, whether it's reticulocytes or red cells or, you know, all of these things that smart people can come up with tests for.

[160] That's, it was more of a screening method to detect a transfusion.

[161] what's kind of fucked up about all this is that you won the tour de france seven times you obviously trained like a demon pushed yourself to the limits you beat everyone in the competition and they were all doing the same thing you were doing right yet you're the one who's demonized and yet you're the one who takes all the grief for it yeah and there's a situation that happens when you're involved you're involving money you're involving sponsors you're involved when you once you first start once the ball starts rolling and the first deception has been launched out there into the ether yeah there's no way to take it back if you want to keep racing yep and that's the thing i mean people look i mean my story and and i i hear you loud and clear and you can say that i can never say that you know when i when i if i were to say things like that people would they would nuke me but it is what it is it is it is what it is, but that's, anyhow, there was the doping, okay, which led to the lying, right, which led to the treatment of other people.

[162] I think by and large, people can have the perspective that you have.

[163] They can say, look, looks to me like everybody did it.

[164] So, okay, then they can look to the line, and that's where they really start to not like it.

[165] They say, this guy lied to us repeatedly.

[166] But of course, you get, you know, my, there's no defense to that but if I could if I could share any personal insight I mean once you lie once you just keep lying you keep lying as if I'm going to sit here you know this is 15 years ago and Joe you're a nice guy and you I mean if I was on this podcast I would have lied to your fucking face a million times just so you know I would have just so you know just so you know but that's not a surprise to you or anybody else but but once you're in there it's not as if I'm going to go you know this this guy Joe seems like a really nice guy.

[167] I think I'm going to be real, I'm going to be honest with him.

[168] It's too much money.

[169] There's no way.

[170] You can't.

[171] Yeah, so I was, I was stuck for lack of a better word in that, in that, in that lie or that deception.

[172] But then the way that I took my competitive nature, which served me well in training and in racing, and took it into the real world, took it into a press conference, took it into a personal relationship, took it into former teammates, my relationship with that, that's the part where people go, okay, fuck this guy forever right we're i'm done and so um that you know you got sort of the three phases none of them are good but as it got further away um that um you know lack of respect for others is the thing that totally fucked me and you know to that i would i would say to anybody that i understand and and i'm i may be in their time out forever um i have and the only thing I will add that may sound like I'm trying to defend myself is I've I've tried to make amends with all those people right the ones that we all know the ones people talk about I've traveled the world I've sat with them I've looked them in the eyes and said what I did was totally unacceptable and I'm sorry and almost everybody has accepted the apology and and we've moved on but that doesn't get to this this you know this crowd of people that that you can't sit with face to face And you can't say you're sorry.

[173] I mean, I can talk to you.

[174] We can talk about it.

[175] Some people may view that as an apology or not.

[176] But the ones that I could go sit with, I did.

[177] And that's all that I would add to that.

[178] And I, and I, I mean, I'm proud that most of those people.

[179] And I say most, not everybody, because not everybody's ready.

[180] But most of those people said, you know what?

[181] We're good.

[182] We're done.

[183] And so if it was my son and he acted that way, first of all, I'd say, what the fuck are you doing?

[184] You can't act that way.

[185] But I had no, nobody was standing over me going, dude, what, are you, what do you, you're acting like an asshole.

[186] Nobody did that.

[187] So, but if my son did that, I would say, you get over there and you make it right with that person.

[188] So that's where it is and, uh, here we go.

[189] You're also in this bizarre position at the time to be the only famous cycler in the entire country.

[190] Cyclist.

[191] Cycler, is not it?

[192] No, that's a cyclist.

[193] A cyclist.

[194] Cyclist.

[195] Biker, but a biker is like sons of anarchy.

[196] And that's, yeah, yeah, I kind of get burned out on that series.

[197] But, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of weight to carry around.

[198] Yeah, and then there's the cancer organization, just live strong.

[199] All of it.

[200] There's a lot of weight you're carrying around.

[201] I speak to it all the time.

[202] I mean, it was a huge wave.

[203] But you're also balancing out so much good with this lie, and this lie is helping all this good.

[204] Like the Livestrong Foundation is generating hundreds of millions of dollars, helping all these people with cancer.

[205] I've seen you in the hospitals with these kids and it makes me having kids myself.

[206] It makes me cry.

[207] Seeing these kids with face masks on because their immune system is so compromised and they don't have any hair and they're just devastated.

[208] And you're hanging out with these kids and you're generating all this positive energy for them, generating all this money, all this research that's being funded.

[209] So there's all this good as well.

[210] You start telling the truth that stops well we know what happens because it happened yeah it did happen it happened and we know it dried up i don't see any of those fucking bracelets anymore no so god damn things were everywhere yeah yeah they were we had a good run and 85 million bracelets yeah but look i mean i don't want anybody to be mistaken my interests were selfish i mean i was uh uh defending myself and protecting myself um but at the same time it wasn't just myself i was protecting i was protecting the sport.

[211] I was protecting our sponsors.

[212] I was protecting the tour.

[213] I was protecting the foundation.

[214] And, you know, it's just hard to say, I'm going to, I'm going to stop.

[215] And what we just said, I mean, we now know on all of those things, right?

[216] We know what's happened to the foundation.

[217] We know what's happened to the sport.

[218] We know what's happened to the sponsor.

[219] We know.

[220] We can now see.

[221] It was a devastating toll.

[222] And, you know, most would say, well, that's all your fault, Lance, and maybe they're right, but it's been, you know, especially on the foundation side, dude, it just breaks my heart to see that the effect it's had on their effectiveness.

[223] Well, it's got to be way more complicated than it's just all your fault.

[224] It's way more complicated because when you're talking about an entire sport that's dirty, I mean, for lack of a better word, an entire sport that's being deceptive, an entire sport that's using these performance -enhancing drugs.

[225] And then you're talking about you, because you're this weird outlier.

[226] You're this one guy who is incredibly successful at it in a country where nobody gave a fuck about the Tour de France until you came along.

[227] I mean, is Greg Lamont and you?

[228] Yeah.

[229] You know, I mean, this...

[230] Yeah.

[231] I mean, that's it.

[232] But this is...

[233] I mean, the story, And the story being what it was, a cancer survivor that comes back that wins this event, that transcends the sport, that brings the sport to cycling.

[234] Although Greg did do, I mean, a tremendous job.

[235] Really, that was like the first blow -up of cycling in the United States.

[236] And then comes my story.

[237] I mean, that's the story was so, the story was too big, right?

[238] And that's the reason that, you know, that incentivized and motivated people like, like Novitsky and like the feds to come along.

[239] and say oh a hundred percent a hundred percent i mean they're not they're not doing that to save the world they're not doing that to save the children no matter what ulterior motives that they might you know try to list as well we wanted to make sure that children don't do this we wanted to send a great message we have bullshit it's it's a high profile high publicity avenue for them to achieve notoriety yeah but but right and we'll get into that but the you know my rivals so if you take you know my main rivals whether it's young Don Ulrich or Basso or Baloki or Bentani or, you know, their star factor, for lack of a better phrase, was just different.

[240] And they, you know, they weren't cancer.

[241] It wasn't, so it, it, it, there was this disparity which the sport enabled there to be because it's just kind of an old school janky sport in terms of the way it's organized and run as a business.

[242] That it was like a, you know, like a South American economy.

[243] me, there was really the haves and the have -nots.

[244] That's a crazy way of putting it.

[245] Yeah.

[246] I mean, when you have something like that, it doesn't work.

[247] And so what you need to, you know, all of those ships need to rise with that sea.

[248] And I probably didn't do a good enough job trying to push for that in my time.

[249] But don't you have only a certain amount of resources?

[250] I mean, one of the things that I've always said about extreme winners is there's a borderline between greatness and madness and it crosses back and forth.

[251] I always say the greatness and madness are next door neighbors and they borrow each other's sugar because there's almost no way you can get that good without almost losing your fucking mind.

[252] Right?

[253] I've met some people that are fantastic at things.

[254] The great ones, I've met great ones, especially great fighters, and they're all fucking crazy.

[255] Yeah.

[256] It's almost like you can't not be because you can't be a regular guy and get there.

[257] Right.

[258] I probably was it yeah I probably still am a little crazy oh you're crazy I can tell you're definitely crazy no but I don't I don't think you're bad I don't think you're a bad guy I mean I don't know you that well yeah but I just think you have to have that that sharpness yeah you have to have that that grit you have to have that aggressive competitive nature in order to succeed especially in some fucking thing where everyone's doing the same thing there's not a lot of creativity involved there's not a lot of uh variables you're fucking pushing yourself pushing yourself you're pumping your legs that's it you can't you know you can't fake to the left and go to the right you can't fucking throw up some new move that no one's ever seen before you're you're fucking pushing yourself yeah you definitely had some of those but at the end of the day you're on a fucking bike and everybody else is on a bike and you're going up the goddamn same hill right and there were no secrets right and that's the that that concentrates down what the competitive nature is to like the edge who's got the sharper edge Who's more intense?

[259] And you won because of that.

[260] He's getting riled up.

[261] I get riled up.

[262] Dude, I'm going to step back.

[263] Don't jump across his table.

[264] I mean, isn't that what it is?

[265] I've got a big old kettlebell over here that I'm going to swing at you if you come over here.

[266] Just settle down.

[267] Isn't that what it is, though?

[268] I mean, that it has to be what it is.

[269] It's the only way to win.

[270] Yeah, it's an endurance event, so you have to be a little careful with that.

[271] But there are those moments where you just have to unleash everything you have.

[272] And you can unleash them in training or in racing.

[273] and yeah but yes that seems like a really good point where you just put that up is there's you have to be careful with that you have to know when to put like how you have to know your body yeah like really intimately as far as it and you have to manage it over the course of many many many days say the marathon i mean nobody takes off and you know like it's a hundred -yard dash i mean you have to manage you obviously you have the experience of knowing what that effort is going to look and feel like and you know how to manage all of that.

[274] But, yeah, I mean, three weeks long, man, you've got to be careful.

[275] Yeah, is there a moment where you remember, like, during a race, where you wanted to push, but you had to back down?

[276] Like, there was, is there moments where you, like, you're managing your body?

[277] Because I didn't have it?

[278] Well, yeah, where you feel like, I just, this is not a smart thing to go.

[279] Yeah.

[280] And now, and, you know, now you can, I mean, when we race, you know, Well, in the old days, people just trained, and they thought, well, I'm going to go hard today, and I'm going to go easy tomorrow.

[281] Right.

[282] And then it came the heart rate monitor, and they followed their heart rate, and they managed their training and they're racing through that.

[283] And then came the power meters.

[284] And so now there's all these, you know, there are these devices where you can really monitor all of that stuff.

[285] And so you're out there, you're not just sort of driving around blind.

[286] I mean, you actually can see what you're doing.

[287] And that makes managing that effort a lot easier.

[288] what is it what are the differences in numbers like if you go back to like a hundred years ago well assuming that people weren't using corks and or corks and fishing line and whatever other ways they're cheating yeah like what what is like a realistic difference between the the early days of winning and today you just you have to look at modern cycling i mean you have to look at when when you know the bike basically got to the bikes and the wheels and these things got to where they are today and um you know they're uh I mean, they're fast now.

[289] I mean, these guys are fast.

[290] And that's, you know, two things have happened.

[291] Number one, my story got exposed.

[292] And so then people question everybody, whether it's Chris Froome, who won the Tour de France this year, or somebody that wins the World Championships.

[293] They question them because of me. And then they say, okay, well, you know, he's dirty.

[294] Seems like everybody's dirty.

[295] So you must be dirty.

[296] And then they go to the Times, right?

[297] They look at my times in the Tour de France.

[298] So they look at the Peloton's times, and they see now that the times are actually either the same or better.

[299] So they say, well, then, of course, that supports my argument that you're dirty.

[300] Does it?

[301] Well, if it's fat, I mean, I don't know.

[302] I mean, I don't have the answer to that.

[303] And I, you know, I get asked all the time, what's going on now?

[304] I said, I have no idea.

[305] I mean, I'm so far removed from cycling that I have no earthly idea of what's going on or not going on.

[306] But I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame those guys.

[307] I don't, I understand it, but, you know, shit, I mean, you could have, these athletes might be a lot better.

[308] The training might be a lot better.

[309] I do think technology, the bikes, the wheels, even road surfaces are a lot better.

[310] Is there any part of you that's kind of pissed off that there are performance enhancing drugs?

[311] Like, if there was nothing, and if it just had to be mono -a -mono.

[312] Same result.

[313] You would have the same result.

[314] I would have this.

[315] It is my belief that the results would be the same.

[316] There would be a few seconds slower or whatever it would be.

[317] It doesn't matter if the overall time is slower.

[318] What matters is if you were five minutes ahead of the next guy.

[319] That's what matters.

[320] That's what matters.

[321] That's my belief.

[322] But there are others that don't hold that belief.

[323] There are others to say no. I mean, doping effects, individuals differently.

[324] And, you know, you might have won two or you might have won none.

[325] Well, that means that some people weren't doping correctly.

[326] But look, once you're doping, if you're doping and the other guy's doping better than you, like, well, then you're not doing your job doping.

[327] You know, you're not being a good competitive doper.

[328] No, he's not like Bill.

[329] But, I mean, that's really what it is, right?

[330] I mean, doesn't it make sense?

[331] Yeah, it gets complicated.

[332] And we would talk forever and people would argue with us forever about that.

[333] Yeah, but they're not here, you know.

[334] Oh, they are.

[335] They're listening.

[336] Oh, they're here.

[337] But my perspective is really clear on that.

[338] I mean, I think if you have a sport where everybody's, you know, and we were both talking about the Bill Burr thing that he did on Conan, which is like, yeah, our psychopath is better than your psychopath, you know.

[339] That's really what it is.

[340] You can't say that, I mean, how could they take away?

[341] This is one of the things that drove me the craziest about this.

[342] Like, what did they do with the seven years where you won where they said you're not the winner anymore?

[343] Well, who the fuck won?

[344] it then that's how do you how do you find the guy who won it so that's that's that's a problem what's in the record books that's it's empty empty empty so that's empty for seven years yeah yeah that's ridiculous and look i you you you i agree with you but you can say that i cannot say that all i will say is that i don't i don't think it's uh far be it for me to talk about what's fair or not fair but i don't think it's fair for the sport to leave those empty.

[345] I think that's crazy.

[346] In compare and contrast, so in the tour, you have the yellow jersey, who's the guy who wins.

[347] You have the polka dot jersey, who's technically the best climber, and then you have the green jersey who's technically the best sprinter.

[348] Those seven years were, the green jersey was won by Zobel, who admitted to having doped all seven of those years.

[349] The polka dot jersey was won by Varank from France, who admitted to having doped all those years.

[350] Those all stand.

[351] Everything's still there.

[352] That's hilarious.

[353] But the yellow jersey has been erased.

[354] You know, second place, third place, all those places are still there.

[355] The years prior to me where somebody had admitted or was caught, all still there.

[356] So there's just an asterisk in first place?

[357] If you go to Wikipedia, there's just a line through it.

[358] That's so strange.

[359] So it's the word, man. It's very strange.

[360] And it's strange for me. And it makes me sad because, look, I'm going to be honest.

[361] I believe I won the races.

[362] And I think...

[363] Well, no, you did win the races.

[364] No, you won the races.

[365] The people to ask are the ones that got beat.

[366] Yeah.

[367] So if you ask them, right?

[368] If you ask Jan, if you ask Zula, if you ask...

[369] If you ask any of them, they say he won those bike races.

[370] And so, man, it...

[371] Do you still have those yellow jerseys in your house or do you have to give them back?

[372] No. Good, fuck them.

[373] She put up an Instagram picture of them every day.

[374] that was yeah that yeah i'm not going to put that picture up again that was a great picture though are you chilling on the couch at seven yellow jerseys on your wall i got i got i got nuked for that one well you're going to get nuked no matter what you do look but i i mean they're up yeah they're up and uh and and and i'm proud of them i really am and i'm proud of and that's the thing too is that as weird as it is and as strange as it is that there's just a lot of line through those years as if they did not happen.

[375] Man, I was paid to do a job, right?

[376] As messy as the job was, whatever, I was paid to do it, and I did it.

[377] And I wanted to win.

[378] I wanted to capture those memories for myself and for my teammates.

[379] And nobody can take those away from me. I still hold those memories to myself.

[380] And, yeah, it's had a complicated ending, but, you know, I still view those as victories and I still view those memories as good.

[381] The carrying around the lie and being interrogated and questioned and was that the hardest part about all of it?

[382] You know, I was only interrogated or questioned with the press.

[383] And even, you know, God, if it would have been in this day and age with Twitter and Facebook and social media, it would have been a thousand times worse.

[384] I mean, this was, you know, I mean, this was in the late 90s.

[385] I mean, think about that.

[386] That was a long time ago.

[387] And so the level of scrutiny while it was high wasn't nearly as high as it would have been today.

[388] But, yeah, I mean, once you dig in, you know, with these guys, you're stuck.

[389] Once you finally came clean, I mean, obviously there was a lot of blowback.

[390] But was there also a relief?

[391] not immediately not immediately i mean i i get asked that a lot and i think people um people people expect me to say well you know it was just this it was this this this huge relief off your shoulders when you when you talk to opra or you or whatever you did that that you can now move forward and live the life of an honest man and etc etc but it's taken me let me just sum it up i mean sitting here today having this conversation, I would much prefer to have this conversation than the one where I would lie to your fucking face 15 times 10 years ago.

[392] I'd much rather us talk like this.

[393] So that's a relief.

[394] But it was, you know, it's not like I walked out of sitting with Oprah and was like, oh my God, I feel amazing.

[395] That was, that was an ass weapon.

[396] And so.

[397] Was it like sitting there with Oprah?

[398] She's asking, she's drilling you, asking you questions.

[399] How about that start?

[400] She came out hot.

[401] Yeah, she came out hot.

[402] Yes or no?

[403] Yes or no. Yes or no. I thought, you know, I thought she did a good job.

[404] She did a great job.

[405] I thought she did a good job.

[406] I thought it was very compelling.

[407] Yep.

[408] Because the way she structured the beginning part of the conversation.

[409] Yeah.

[410] Especially if you're going to do something like that on television, you want to capture people and keep them there.

[411] You kind of have to approach it that way.

[412] I thought she did a good job.

[413] I don't, I know that it wasn't well received.

[414] And I, and I, in what way?

[415] You mean, people didn't.

[416] like you afterwards in that way.

[417] Well, I think there's two things.

[418] Number one, I wasn't emotionally ready to do that interview.

[419] I wasn't in a place where I think that I sit today where it's, it's, it is a position of contrition and understanding the tremendous sense of betrayal that's out there.

[420] Like my perception of that today is much sharper than it was three years ago when I sat with her.

[421] The feds and other lawsuits forced my hand.

[422] I had to sit there with that because I knew I was going to be sitting with her or with you or with Tom Brokaw or I was going to be sitting with a government lawyer, being deposed, being videoed, and being leaked.

[423] So I said, well, I'm going to go, I'm going to find the place that I'd rather sit down and talk about this as opposed to a grainy video that the government leaks to the world.

[424] And that's your coming out party.

[425] So I did that.

[426] But the thing about Oprah is aside from me just not being ready at the time to do it, you know, people sensed that.

[427] But most importantly, for the diehard cycling fans and sports fans, I didn't say enough.

[428] You didn't name names.

[429] You didn't call anybody out.

[430] You wasn't detailed enough.

[431] You're holding back.

[432] You're protecting people.

[433] That's what they said.

[434] That's a very small percentage of the population.

[435] For the majority of the population, those first five minutes was way too much.

[436] information.

[437] They were like, what the fuck did I just hear?

[438] Like blood bags, EPO, testosterone, transfusions, cheating.

[439] It was way too much.

[440] So you had people that, one camp, a smaller camp said, he didn't say enough.

[441] He's holding back here.

[442] The other camp was like, all right, that's, that's more than I needed to hear.

[443] And so everybody was pissed.

[444] But I don't know why they would think it's too much.

[445] I mean, I don't know.

[446] I don't understand that logic, because it is You're a grandma in Duluth.

[447] Right.

[448] And you supported the cancer survivor.

[449] Santa Claus isn't real.

[450] And you hear that?

[451] I mean, you're sitting there going, uh -uh, I don't like anything about this.

[452] So I see, because they were also supporting Livestrong.

[453] Yeah.

[454] Also supporting the cancer.

[455] How much of an effect did it have, like almost immediately on your foundation?

[456] I don't know.

[457] Because I was asked to leave the foundation before that.

[458] and I haven't been back, so I don't know, and I'm not, and I don't ask.

[459] Is it still around?

[460] Yeah.

[461] But it must have taken a devastating hit.

[462] I think so.

[463] I mean, it takes a hit in terms of, obviously in terms of fundraising, which directly leads to its, you know, its effectiveness in terms of helping create change for cancer survivors all around the world.

[464] You need to raise money in order to do that.

[465] Staff layoffs.

[466] I mean, you name it.

[467] I mean, it's, but I don't, I don't have specifics because once I left the board and left the organization, and they legally changed the name, I don't know.

[468] None of it was shocking to me. I mean, I knew, I didn't know, but I knew that every, I have a friend who is a professional cycller.

[469] Just say his name's John.

[470] Cyclist.

[471] Sorry.

[472] We're going to get this right.

[473] Okay, people.

[474] I'm going to write it down.

[475] Cyclists.

[476] Cycling 101.

[477] He's a biker.

[478] It's like people say the ultimate fighting challenge, it's a championship.

[479] See, I would say that.

[480] Yeah, the challenge.

[481] That's okay.

[482] My friend John was a professional cyclist.

[483] And this was 2003, three, four.

[484] And he told me. He was like, listen, man, we were all on it.

[485] He goes, guys would get off the bus in the middle of the night.

[486] You'd hear them taking off their bikes.

[487] and going for a ride because their blood got too thick.

[488] There are those old stories.

[489] Yeah.

[490] That's from EPO, right?

[491] That's, yeah, I've heard those stories.

[492] I never saw that.

[493] Well, so my friend John, I mean, maybe he was on a crazy team or something like that.

[494] But back in the day, you know, before they got it dialed in?

[495] Well, what happened was, there was no test, right?

[496] So no sport had a test, whether it's cycling or swimming or running.

[497] Or even boxing.

[498] Or whatever sport is using EPO, they didn't have a test.

[499] test for EPO.

[500] And so they, and with, you know, one of the side effects of EPO or, you know, or increasing your red cell count is your blood.

[501] It's literally a question of viscosity, right?

[502] So your oil and your motor oil.

[503] Yeah.

[504] Well, that's the only time you ever think of the word viscosity, right?

[505] Yeah.

[506] It's your motor oil.

[507] But more red cells means thicker blood.

[508] You've heard blood's too thick.

[509] We know what happens.

[510] It's not, it isn't a good thing.

[511] And so the sport had to go to, they couldn't test for it.

[512] The science wasn't there yet.

[513] So they went to these sort of preventative screening methods, right?

[514] So then they started testing the viscosity or the thickness of people's blood, otherwise known as hematicrit, right?

[515] And so they would use that as the screen.

[516] Anybody above 50 % hematicrit couldn't race.

[517] You weren't positive.

[518] You didn't get banned.

[519] But you were put on the side for two weeks as a health measure.

[520] Anyone under 50 % was fine to race.

[521] So everybody took that as, I mean, before that, there were people that were 60, 64%.

[522] Those guys might be getting up in the middle of the night going for a little spin yeah but at 50 you know they deemed that sort of the healthiest level you know but people pushed it right up to 50 then this and there's some side effects and there's some possible potential health risks as far as like strokes and things along those lines i'm sure did anybody that was on the tour ever dropped dead from EPO well there's there there was you know look there there i don't know i mean there are a lot of documented cases, especially in the 80s.

[523] Right when EPO, I guess, was first hitting the scene, there was this wave of Dutch cyclists that passed away in the night.

[524] And, you know...

[525] In the night, huh?

[526] In their sleep.

[527] And that's probably when it would happen.

[528] Well, I don't know.

[529] I mean, I didn't do the autopsy.

[530] You know, nobody, I don't know if anybody's ever proven that, but that sort of, I don't want to say that was the myth, but that was that, EPO, the drug, took blame for those deaths and so it hasn't happened since and it didn't happen uh in you know in our generation but i don't know but my point being that it is it can be fairly dangerous well if well if your blood yeah you can imagine if it gets too thick so that that would not be one of the things that it didn't surprise me that when you came clean uh i was like well good for him That was really what I thought.

[531] I was like, it's kind of fucked up that he was lying all this time.

[532] And it's kind of fucked up that he was suing people that were saying that he was telling lies.

[533] But one of the things that shocked me the most when I was thinking about it was that you had recovered from cancer.

[534] You had one of your testicles removed.

[535] You had brain surgery.

[536] You had lung cancer.

[537] You mean, your body was ravaged by this.

[538] And yet you still were taking drugs.

[539] Yep.

[540] that's that's what got me i was like that what a crazy desire to win that you you got to this place where your body was you know you were on death's door and recover from it and then put yourself back in risk yeah i mean yeah saying it like that it there's no there's no justifying that other than i was in this sport that that i really wanted to to to be in and stay in and after the disease i wanted to go back to and that was the that was the landscape and so you viewed it you thought okay this is not ideal but you asked the question what am i really you know having knowing my health history right with cancer with all that i went through is going back to my sport and taking EPO a risk to that to that you know to my to my disease or to my health um and And the answer to that, obviously, my answer to myself was no. You really didn't think that it was a risk to push your body like that and to put all these, I mean, stuff.

[541] They're, you know, they're, in a lot of ways, they're pushing your body in an unnatural way or to an unnatural level.

[542] Testosterone and human growth hormone and EPO and all these.

[543] And that's challenging, really, and that's the only difference that was made was, I mean, I had a slight experience.

[544] with growth hormone before the disease, and then after the diagnosis and the treatment and the recovery, I said, okay, that does not sound like a good idea.

[545] Because it's too dangerous.

[546] Yeah.

[547] And in my own fucked up way, I was thinking, well, that would lead to the growth of, you know, malignant cell, et cetera, et cetera.

[548] So, but I didn't view those to the same.

[549] Plus, I don't think HGH is for cycling.

[550] I don't think it's very effective anyways.

[551] I think it's a waste.

[552] Did you alter your diet?

[553] Well, for sure, yeah.

[554] What changes did you make when you came back from having cancer?

[555] Man, I was, and again, this is the stuff that we can talk about.

[556] I talked about forever, and it's almost sort of mocked now, you know, because we talked about the change in diet and the increased, you know, intensity of training and the reconnaissance and the technology and the wind tunnel.

[557] And we did all of those things.

[558] And they all worked, you know, but I say they're mocked now because people, people now know the truth.

[559] We all know the truth.

[560] And people say, oh, he told us it was all that other bullshit.

[561] He told us it was the training.

[562] He told us it was his diet.

[563] Right.

[564] Now we know.

[565] It was just the doping.

[566] Well, it wasn't, though.

[567] It was the doping end.

[568] That was the last, that was the final piece.

[569] Yeah.

[570] Which just was unfortunately, as we've said numerous times, it was just, it was unfortunate and it was inevitable.

[571] But that was the final piece.

[572] And it was also the piece that we never talked about, of course.

[573] Right.

[574] Of course.

[575] Yeah.

[576] See, this is the weight you're carrying around.

[577] What I'm asking you about your diet, I literally didn't know that you had discussed this ad nauseum.

[578] Yeah.

[579] So you're carrying this around.

[580] You're always assuming that people heard this.

[581] If you look at me racing in 96 before I was diagnosed, and then you look at me, went in the tour at 99.

[582] I mean, this is 20 pounds difference.

[583] So, I mean, I went, I had this when I got out of sort of my cancer mission, you know, and recovered and took a year and a half away and went back, I viewed I mean I viewed racing bikes as life and death I viewed it I viewed my disease as a as a competitive event as a sporting event it's me versus the opposition looking at the scoreboard how we doing and then when I got to when I got back on the bike it was it was it was like life and death and so everything was intensified starving yourself training your ass off just being as you said a minute ago just being generally fucking totally crazy for for a result mad not mad but madness you were starving yourself to be lighter yeah we that's part of it i mean these poor guys now i mean they're they're a lot skinnier than we were i mean this is guys riding five six hours a day and not eating i mean it just it fucking sucks how do they do it you don't eat this just just just deal with it just go to bed hungry wow just just keep your body weight light it's all power to wait i wish you were still i wish i would like to to know what the fuck these guys are doing now i would like to know when you see guys with faster times and really ridiculously stringent drug testing yeah and well anytime i go anywhere near that i just get i just get destroyed because um i don't know the the people view it as as me accusing them i mean i've made because i get a lot of questions so i'll tweet back so i don't ask me i have no idea you know people take that as saying well he just he just blamed him he just accuse them of doing the same shit and I feel bad for those guys man I feel I feel bad for any top level rider that that is racing their bike in 2015 and has to answer questions about a guy from 1999 like if I was winning in 99 what is that 16 years somebody asked me a question about somebody from 1983 I said what the fuck are you talking about don't ask me that question like why are you asking me about some dude 20 years ago well I'm here today so but it's well that's the craziest thing about you in the sport.

[584] Like, you're inexorably tied to it.

[585] There's no way to pull it away from you.

[586] Like, that scandal was one of the, at least in the United States, was one of the biggest aspects of that sport ever.

[587] It's still, I mean, any, any story that gets written, I mean, so I don't know if you follow track and field or all of this stuff that came out of...

[588] Ben Johnson.

[589] That's all everybody will talk about.

[590] But there was just this revelation that came out of international track and field and the Russian Federation and the covers up there.

[591] All of those stories that get written, whether it's on Deadspin or The New York Times or on Twitter, they all reference this story as well.

[592] So you get put back, which is, I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing, but it just brings people back to that, you know, to my history.

[593] Yeah, it's like it's baseball and Barry Bonds.

[594] It's just they're tied.

[595] There's just no way you're going to separate the two of them together.

[596] Yeah.

[597] It's got to be a very bizarre thing for those people that are racing.

[598] ask them yeah you should you don't want to nobody knows who they are that's the most fucked up thing about it's like you're like I mean in a way like Tony Hawk is the only skateboarder I've ever heard of I'm sure I met a few other ones but I don't remember their names but Tony Hawk is that guy like you think of skateboarding you think of Tony Hawk you think of bike racing think of Lance Armstrong and now that you think of swimming you think of Michael Phelps yeah there's just yeah there's just a few Well, Greg Lamont is a diver.

[599] You think of him, I guess.

[600] He's kind of a swimmer.

[601] But there's not a lot of names.

[602] Greg Lamont's a cyclist.

[603] No, what's the other guy?

[604] Greg.

[605] Luganis.

[606] Sorry.

[607] Dude.

[608] I'm going to pay attention.

[609] At least you said cyclist.

[610] I did.

[611] I'm getting better.

[612] Greg Lugan.

[613] Greg Lamont's probably like, what the fuck?

[614] Yeah.

[615] There's just, it's weird when you have a sport that's where the public locks on to one person.

[616] And they don't know any of the other people in it.

[617] Like, if it's football, there's like, fucking.

[618] Hundreds of guys.

[619] Hundreds.

[620] Boxing, hundreds of guys.

[621] But with cycling, there's just so few.

[622] And you carrying the weight of that sport in the United States and trying to popularize it as well as holding onto this lie.

[623] Yeah.

[624] Yeah.

[625] I mean, when I hear you say that, and you may not be defending me, but it sounds as if you're defending me. So I don't necessarily want that.

[626] I mean, I don't...

[627] I'm not defending you.

[628] Right.

[629] What I'm doing, I'm trying to illuminate reality in a pretty objective way.

[630] Well, you can, yeah, do that on your next podcast.

[631] Okay.

[632] Because me sitting here right now, people...

[633] It makes you uncomfortable?

[634] No, it doesn't make me uncomfortable, but I'm of the belief that nobody wants to hear that shit.

[635] They're still...

[636] I think people are upset.

[637] I know they're upset, and so...

[638] Some people do.

[639] I mean, look, you're going to have people that are upset.

[640] I think what we're dealing with when it comes to the Internet is just a gigantic.

[641] There's too many people to like say some people want this, some people, you can't manage it.

[642] We're doing hundreds of millions of people who can get on their Facebook or get on their Twitter and just start giving their input right now.

[643] And that's never happened before.

[644] And when that happens, you're going to be understandably sensitive to the outcome.

[645] Yep.

[646] Yeah.

[647] What was the blowback like when you, when you did the Oprah thing and then you just went out into the public?

[648] Did you just try to lay low for a while?

[649] Yeah, I tried to...

[650] Well, there was several variations of quote -unquote blowback.

[651] There was just the public's perception, so if I walked down the street, which I have to admit, it was better than I expected, right?

[652] Nobody...

[653] It's not as if I left talking with Oprah and I walked out on the street and, you know, people were throwing shit at me. I mean, that's never happened.

[654] It could happen one day, but it hasn't yet.

[655] There's the blowback, which is the most important part, which is the way my kids were treated.

[656] You know, I've got five kids, three older ones.

[657] You know, I was very concerned with what they heard in the hallways, you know, what they saw on their social media stuff.

[658] You know, what does that news do to them?

[659] That is the most important thing.

[660] And a real credit to the city of Austin and the schools that they go to and our community and their friends and the kids in the school, very little blowback.

[661] So that was, for me, that was, that was, like, the biggest relief.

[662] Like, people can throw shit in me and say shit all day long.

[663] But if my kids were treated roughly, I mean, that would just, that would break your heart, wouldn't it?

[664] I mean, yeah, it would be devastating.

[665] Yeah, that'd be the, by far the worst.

[666] So that was, that was very fortunate that, that, that was not seamless.

[667] I mean, there was some stuff, but they managed it and we managed it, and the community managed it pretty well.

[668] And then there was the legal blowback, which was, which was pretty nasty.

[669] I mean, I got, as soon as I stepped off the stage with Oprah, call it a stage, the lawsuit just piled up, I mean, and piled up big.

[670] And how many of them are still ongoing right now?

[671] There's one.

[672] Just one.

[673] One.

[674] The federal government one?

[675] The federal case.

[676] And the federal case.

[677] But there were, and some of them were highly publicized, and some were not.

[678] Some, the problem, the team was ensuring all of my salaries and all of my bonuses, unbeknown.

[679] to me. And so, because they didn't have the money.

[680] And so when this goes down, all of these companies came back and said, where's our money?

[681] And I said, well, who are you?

[682] I said, well, we're, so the team, I knew about one situation, right, the big one, the SCA case, which, which has been settled since.

[683] But there were many, many others.

[684] And some were public, some were private, but they all had to get settled.

[685] And so we've navigated that landscape, and now we're just down to the postal case, the federal case.

[686] And when is that going to be resolved?

[687] That's a good question.

[688] It's been going on a long time.

[689] And it came on the heels of a two or three -year criminal investigation, which you're well aware of through Jeff Novitsky and through the U .S. Attorney's Office here in Los Angeles.

[690] So once that case was closed, then the Civil Division picked up the postal case.

[691] And it's been ongoing for years.

[692] And we've sort of finished that first phase of litigation.

[693] And it'll go to trial maybe a year from now.

[694] in Washington, D .C. We talked about this very briefly before the podcast.

[695] We wanted to kind of say before the podcast.

[696] I don't understand the criminal investigation.

[697] I don't understand the allocation of resources towards someone who was bike racing.

[698] I feel like in the world where we have bankers that causes gigantic 2008 financial collapse, where we have pharmaceutical companies who are making billions of dollars getting people hooked on OxyContin's when we have crime and murder and all the fucking problems.

[699] problems we have in this culture, to spend taxpayers' dollars on bike racing, a guy who may have cheated or definitely cheated in a sport where everybody's cheating.

[700] That seems kind of fucked up.

[701] Well, you can, it's McCarthyism.

[702] I mean, you can have, first of all, cyclists don't have any lobbyists.

[703] Nobody's out protecting us, whatever we did or didn't do in Europe 20 years ago.

[704] The banks do, Big Pharma does, et cetera, et cetera.

[705] So that's kind of a good old boys club that we're not a part of.

[706] But, and we've talked about this offline, I mean, when you have a federal agent in a guy like Novitsky who's, who's, he's made his career with the.

[707] types of cases, whether it's Balco or Bonds or Marion Jones, when you have a guy like that that all of a sudden is interested, it's going to happen.

[708] And when you have that particular agent or any agent that walks into interview a witness or interview an old teammate with a badge and a gun, they're talking.

[709] Yeah, it gets weird, right?

[710] It's a different kind of investigation.

[711] Yeah, it's, so of course, I mean, I heard what you said, of course, I don't think it makes much sense, but I'm, I was in the cross here, so people are going to say, well, of course you don't think it makes sense, but, um, look, I mean, uh, and I, and I listened to your, to your podcast with, with Novitsky, and, uh, I mean, it's just, there's some bullshit in there.

[712] And so, what specifically?

[713] You know, I think the idea that, and again, I'm not, I don't work for the government, I don't work for the U .S. Attorney's Office here, but I think the idea that he was brought into the investigation, I don't know that that's necessarily true.

[714] I think, and again, I don't know, Jeff, but I think he went, I think he looked for those cases.

[715] I mean, and whether or not, and by the way, when you're an agent for the Food and Drug Administration, I don't.

[716] know how i mean all of these things have missions he was you know he was an agent for the irs and so that that's when balko and bond started i don't i don't know that doping and baseball is an irs issue i don't know that doping and cycling 20 years ago is an issue for the fda i mean they regulate who makes aspirin and who gives you your lettuce and your eggs and what does that have to do with but i think he i think he was opportunistic when it came to uh these cases whether it's Barry Bonds or myself, and, you know, he thrived on that.

[717] Well, I think you look at it two ways.

[718] In one, on one hand, he certainly capitalizes on these high -profile cases.

[719] He certainly goes after that.

[720] On the other hand, him capitalizing and being the rabbit investigator that he is, it highlights the issues that are going on.

[721] Sure.

[722] So I think the real problem is the allocation of money, like how much money is being spent on these cases.

[723] You know, he told me that the Barry Bonds case, that they only spent like $100 ,000.

[724] I didn't, I didn't expect that from, I didn't question them and I didn't research it beforehand.

[725] I didn't, I didn't know that that was even going to come up.

[726] But then once I did research it, it seems like it was a fuckload more money than $100 ,000.

[727] Yeah.

[728] Well, that's, that's, obviously, that's laughable.

[729] But whatever the number was, it, you know, it wasn't 100 ,000, but it was, it was Probably not as much as what was reported.

[730] But, hey, that's the United States of America.

[731] That's what they get to do.

[732] And also, you get a guy like him, and that's how these issues get highlighted.

[733] I mean, that's why we know about it, because he was so aggressive in his tactics.

[734] He was so aggressive in chasing down anybody that he thought was doing these drugs.

[735] That's why we know about these cases in such an extreme detail.

[736] Yep.

[737] Yeah.

[738] Yeah.

[739] Yeah, man, it was, it was, it wasn't pleasant watching that or listening to that podcast.

[740] I mean, and the fact that, I don't know if you're bullshit me or not, the fact that he wanted to do the podcast with me. Oh, he did.

[741] Yeah.

[742] He asked to do it.

[743] What kind of crazy is that?

[744] Well, I think he wanted to find out, like, how he felt about it, what it feels like now, you know, he wants to, I mean, he's ongoing, I mean, he works right now doing drug investigations for the UFC.

[745] And he's done a fantastic job to the point where, as I was telling you before the podcast, we've seen radical changes in fighters' physiques and their performances.

[746] Guys who are world beaters have dropped off substantially.

[747] The word in the mixed martial arts community, when I talked to fighters, when I talked to trainers, has had a gigantic impact, and they're terrified because they've imposed these very strict fines and probationary periods.

[748] Yeah.

[749] And as you also said before the podcast, I mean, you have a sport where, you know, the bigger and stronger you are physically, the more you're pummeling somebody else's head in.

[750] Yes.

[751] It's different.

[752] It's different.

[753] Yeah.

[754] It's different than baseball.

[755] It is definitely different.

[756] I think it's much more important.

[757] Is this sport just as exciting?

[758] It's pretty damn exciting.

[759] It's hard to say if it's just as exciting or not, because I think there's a lot of great fighters who are world champions who are clean.

[760] It's just It's like some of the all -time greats I mean there's great guys right now Frankie Edgar clean as a whistle Chris Wybin very clean Rockhold clean He's the new champion In the middleweight division There's a lot of great fighters that are clean It's hard to tell There's a lot of fighters who weren't clean Who are fucking awesome When they weren't clean Vitor Belfort Who went on this wild run For like at 36 years old When he They had this is one of the one of the big problems with the UFC was that they had legal testosterone replacement for a short period time for a few years and guys were just fucking juice into the tits you know like a skittles oh they would come back with these hyperhuman levels like they would test them and you know like a normal person in your testosterone level would be like a low three high 800 Vitor was like 1475 and he looked like a fucking silver back and just hyper aggressive super confident that's different you know that's that's dangerous and winning and beating guys to you know to a pulp right that's uh is that's a different situation it's a you know you're not talking about an extreme endurance sport like that like that kind of aggression and explosion wouldn't benefit you in cycling because it's such a long endurance race and also the the benefit isn't the the end result isn't someone someone's Health doesn't get compromised by it.

[761] So, yeah.

[762] So, I mean, that's, I don't know that sport that well, and I don't know what people's feeling are in and amongst the sport.

[763] I mean, you just gave a pretty good perspective on it.

[764] So more power to him there.

[765] It's just, it's messy to pull it out.

[766] It's messy because it was so pervasive.

[767] It's like if they had figured out, it's, if the tour, if half the guys were clean and half the guys were dirty.

[768] than Tour de France and then they figured out how to pull the drugs out from half it would be messy right because then it would be like okay well what what happened why were these guys doing so well and now they're not the guys are winning or not winning but if they the tour seems like it's so pervasive that if they pull the drugs out the same guys would be winning the times it'd be slower but but what happened what happened was primarily i guess through novitsky's investigation, which when was closed, he more or less handed everything to Usada.

[769] Usada picked up the investigation.

[770] And then they acted.

[771] They gave me the lifetime ban.

[772] That left the, like when the world reads that in 2012, it was the summer of 2012, the world reads that.

[773] The impression is, or when I do Oprah, for example, which is three or four months later, the impression is that we were hanging a blood bag six months ago.

[774] Like, it's a current event.

[775] It feels, although it, it has, it had been it had been seven years before any line had ever been crossed ever even during the comeback so but it made it current the comeback made it current for people novitsky investigating getting everybody to speak through his own tactics um it made it a current event when it when it really it really wasn't it's like it's like uh i remember sitting there in 2012 thinking all right this shit's going down this is this is unbelievable Being in the middle of it, being me, this is unreal.

[776] And I thought, you know, and we're talking about 1999 through 2005, but let's use 99 as an example.

[777] I remember thinking to myself, who won the Super Bowl in 99?

[778] And it was the Broncos, and Elway was the MVP.

[779] I remember thinking to myself, what if I opened the paper today and the NFL's opened a case against John Elway in 2012?

[780] I would have read that and gone, this is a joke, right?

[781] Is it April Fool's?

[782] Like, what the fuck?

[783] He's like an old guy who stands on the sideline.

[784] now.

[785] So it just, they were able to go way, way back and sidestep and ignore any sort of due process and statute of limitations.

[786] And they made it a current event.

[787] I'm not, I'm not blaming them or defending myself.

[788] I'm just telling you what happened.

[789] And, you know, that, you know, it's not totally accurate, but.

[790] Well, it's because it was so long.

[791] It went on for so long.

[792] Like, remember, they had that Nike commercial when that Nike commercial when you were doing that Live Strong Nike commercial and you're riding your bike and you're talking about people calling you a doper this is before you had come clean that was in 2000 yeah and you this is this is before you'd never failed any tests there was not but you still had to address it in a fucking Nike commercial yeah so this was this was something that was ill advised yeah it seems right now right but that's again I mean all of this whether it's agreeing to that commercial or the way you treat it I needed, you know, somebody in my life to go, I just read this script or this storyboard, and I think that's a real bad idea.

[793] Yeah.

[794] But did you have anybody like that in your life?

[795] Well, clearly not.

[796] But did anybody suggest it?

[797] No. No one.

[798] But no. But I was.

[799] But isn't that hard, though, because you're such a fucking winner.

[800] You're like, you're on top of the world.

[801] Nobody wants to say, hey, man, don't do that.

[802] Dude, it's like when you're.

[803] when you're in that position nobody everybody's saying yes yes yes yes yes that's a great idea yes lance yes absolutely right now yes yes nobody's sitting there playing the devil's advocate or saying i think that's a bad idea there's i didn't have that north star man and again i'm not the fucking buck stops with me man it i should have been mature enough and worldly enough to go bad idea let's make another commercial or bad idea lance let's say something else in the next press but it seems like the the weight of it all and the air of it all was so thick that you kind of had to address it all the time because it was being thrown at you all the time i was i peripherally watched cycling peripherally and i knew about it everyone knew about it but but but the more defensive i became and the more aggressive i became in the denials all that does right is what it might appease some people or supporters go lad did you i heard it in his voice i believe that but what it really did especially with the press was it just it just made the next occasion the next question the next episode even more inevitable like it just it added fuel to that fire like i should you know looking back in hindsight i should just say like i'm not gonna talk about or whatever the answer was but instead of saying you know it was literally like finger in your chest fuck you don't ask me that I mean that is when you're guilty that's a real bad approach right and it's the one that I took and quite honestly it's you know probably one of the main reasons that we're sitting here today talking about this why do you think you took that approach and looking back on it because I because that is the approach that I took in training and in racing and even I mean these are guys that I raced against it I liked but I would make up reasons to fucking hate them like I'd read something and be like look at this asshole did you read what he's I mean he probably didn't even say anything I'd take it and be like I can't believe he said just his fuel just his motivation so that's all fine and good when you're training and you're racing and you're competing but when you step off the bike that you have to have that switch to say okay that's been done you won the rate don't we're not going to go treat another human being that way right and in just a in a professional context or in a press context, you got to turn it off, man. And I couldn't.

[804] Like I was, I had my finger in people's chest on the bike, off the bike, everywhere.

[805] And so my bad, dude.

[806] I mean, I didn't have the ability to turn that off.

[807] I mean, it's good to be a competitor, but it's not good to be too competitive.

[808] And once you started, once you took that approach, once you started with that approach, did you feel like there was like a weight of momentum behind you?

[809] Like, to dig you?

[810] You your heels in and stop it and try a new approach would be very difficult well yeah once once it gets rolling it's it's tough to alter what was it like with the people that you were close to obviously the people that you trained with they knew what you were doing but what about your family and your close friends how many of them were aware of what was going on i think you know by and large i don't know i wouldn't have asked him and they wouldn't have asked me i think it was sort of this So your friends never at Hanyland, man, come on.

[811] I think it's more, don't ask, don't.

[812] They never pulled you aside?

[813] Don't ask, don't tell.

[814] Really?

[815] Yeah.

[816] Because they probably, you know, they probably didn't, they didn't want to know.

[817] Do you have close friends outside of cycling?

[818] Yes.

[819] And they didn't ask you.

[820] Well, no, they didn't.

[821] Really?

[822] Yeah, I mean, they might also ride bikes, so they're not in the sport.

[823] Right, but.

[824] Yeah, nobody sort of saddled up at the bar.

[825] It was like, dude, come on.

[826] Really?

[827] Yeah.

[828] No one?

[829] No. Wow.

[830] That's fun.

[831] fucking crazy.

[832] If I was your friend, dude, I would have got you fucked up.

[833] I was just going to say, I would got you drunk.

[834] I'm like, come on, dude, we're going on a hike.

[835] Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, we'd be talking about it now.

[836] He's like, yeah, I remember that time.

[837] I got him all fucked up and no, no, no, he admitted it.

[838] I would have never said a word until you came out.

[839] Once he came out, then I would have told him.

[840] Until the guy with the badge and the gun showed up.

[841] And then you would have said everything.

[842] I would have ducked.

[843] Jeff Novitsky?

[844] No, I would have hired some lawyers.

[845] I'd be like, you guys sit with me when this guy comes in?

[846] What's going on?

[847] What do you want to know?

[848] about bike racing I would have mocked it bike bike racing like a kid's bike you have a gun someone stealing bikes no they're they're killing people with bikes the fuck's going on with that gun yeah what happens in these podcasts when the interviewee has to take a leak you go take a leak man what happens to the podcast we'll just pause it for a second what about the people at home I'll talk to them don't worry about it oh yeah that's right you're also here too don't worry about it man go take a leak it happens all the time it's no big deal oh really yeah yeah okay All the time.

[849] Don't sweat.

[850] Well, I'm going to go take a leak.

[851] Go take a leak.

[852] Please do.

[853] It's one thing about athletes.

[854] They drink fuck loads of water.

[855] Lance is here.

[856] He's hung over, too.

[857] He has a very specific schedule, he told me. He drinks two cups of coffee in the morning.

[858] Then he takes a shit.

[859] Then he drinks water all day.

[860] And then he waits until about five.

[861] About five, and then he started drinking.

[862] That's a good drug.

[863] I was going to ask him about marijuana.

[864] Because if he smoked marijuana and he was holding in all those lies, that shit would fuck.

[865] with you.

[866] Like, I'll smoke some weed and, uh, I'll think about a lie I told it in high school and it'll fuck with me. It really will.

[867] I'll think about some shit that I did in high school and it'll make me go, oh, why the fuck did I say that?

[868] Like, it, that's the one of the crazy things about marijuana.

[869] It never lets you forget.

[870] It'll bring those things up to you're trying to hide.

[871] But alcohol, alcohol's like, ah, don't worry about it, pussy.

[872] Alcohol is the best drug if you're trying to hold back a lie just throw that down and you know as soon as you can't walk straight you're thinking about that as soon as you know you're you're you're thinking about the songless playing you're thinking about your whatever you're thinking about other things it's a good it's a good close your focus drug whereas pot is the opposite pot is a open your focus this is fascinating isn't it jamie forget you have a secret yeah you forget you don't give a fuck about your secrets.

[873] I mean, that's why people make horrible sexual decisions when they're drunk.

[874] You know, I mean, it's also why people think that people that are drunk shouldn't, you shouldn't have sex with someone who's drunk, even if you're drunk.

[875] I mean, that's why the crazy feminists try to say that that's rape, you know, that if a man and women have sex and they're drunk, it's rape.

[876] Well, they say it because obviously not exactly of sound, I mean, it depends on how drunk you are, right?

[877] But at a certain level, you're certainly impaired and you can't make good decisions.

[878] I'd think it's funny, though, that a guy who's just such an athlete, lifelong athlete, fucking pounds the ooch like that.

[879] I'll ask him how often does it.

[880] We're talking about marijuana and whether or not you used marijuana while you were holding back all those lies and how it would fuck with you because when I was, I'll get high and I'll think about some shit I lied about in high school and I'll go like, oh, you know, paranoia and it'll illuminate areas of your life that you're trying to avoid.

[881] Hmm.

[882] The economy of all this is a fascinating aspect of it.

[883] Because there were a lot of people that were making money off of you racing.

[884] A lot of people.

[885] There was a gigantic industry.

[886] And for them to pretend that they didn't know what I knew as a fucking comedian who, again, peripherally watched cycling.

[887] You know, I'd watch you win and I'd be like, damn that motherfucker won again damn that's it you know I mean I never race race bikes I never rode bikes so for me and I knew you know I'm like how the fuck does the US post office not know how the fuck does Nike not know how the fuck does they know they know they can pretend they don't know but they know if they didn't if they didn't know then they're irresponsible that's irresponsible but they kind of new and they just said it's all right we're getting away with it we're getting away with it but then once the shit came down then they all wanted their money back yeah well that's a weird aspect you can't talk too much about this right that one that one gets sensitive well the post office one tricky the post office one I know you can't talk about it but can you talk about this is a reality when you are accused of defrauding the federal government which is what they're saying because you were riding for the U .S. Post Office, that was the team, and you won X amount of money during that time, they can sue you for three times that money.

[888] Correct.

[889] Right, so they won $100 million.

[890] Yeah, a lot of money.

[891] How's that going?

[892] That's, you know, honestly, that's the only active case, so that one does get a little trickier to talk about, just from a, I don't want to get crushed by my lawyers, But we like our case.

[893] We think that we're confident in the case.

[894] We believe that the Postal Service, while none of this story is perfect, we believe that the Postal Service, and their own numbers support it.

[895] I mean, the Postal Service commissioned three separate studies to analyze the effect of the sponsorship on the team.

[896] We believe they made hundreds of millions of dollars.

[897] And we know that they were also.

[898] using the team as a sales vehicle.

[899] So coming to the, during the tour, bringing over potential new clients, bringing over new clients, they were actually converting their business to the Postal Service.

[900] We know that happened.

[901] And we know that it equalled a significant increase in revenue.

[902] So we like our case.

[903] I mean, and at this point, would I like to have all legal issues out of my life?

[904] Yes, but settlement's not an option.

[905] And so we have to just fall back on what we think is the strength of the case.

[906] Does that, if they made a ton of money while you were being dishonest, does that exonerate you from owing the money?

[907] Like, how does that work?

[908] Well, I'm not a lawyer, but my view of, it's called a Ketam case, which is a false claims case, my view is, and I think is one that that our side shares is it's about damages right what was the postal service damaged right and what can we prove to be the damages and uh you know if there are no damages then i would like to think then there's no case but it's it's it is what it is the federal government is interested in the department of justice is interested in the case uh and we and i have no choice but to fight it uh i don't I don't have, after the dozen previous lawsuits, I'm not in a position to really cut any more checks.

[909] And so I'm in a position where I have to go fight this one out.

[910] How do you get by financially now?

[911] Well, the first thing that I did was, and I saw this come and knew this was going to happen, is life was big.

[912] I mean, we had three houses.

[913] We had a jet.

[914] I mean, we had the whole.

[915] So you just take that burn rate way down.

[916] So you just, your overhead goes way down.

[917] And, you know, the crazy thing is, is if you'd have told me before, like, you're going to go sell a bunch of shit and sell your plane, I'd be like, dude, that is life is going to suck.

[918] Was that a plane?

[919] Well, just, you know, the house and Hawaii.

[920] Right.

[921] This is, I'm not trying, I'm not bragging.

[922] I'm just telling you what really happened.

[923] But I would have thought, man, that life is going to be terrible.

[924] as you take it down and you live a simpler life and you get your burn rate down and you get it manageable life's exactly the same like I don't know I mean the happiness factor is exactly the same yeah like none of that studies on that they've done studies on that none of that shit it's more convenient yeah right obviously getting going direct somewhere and not dealing with the terminal and and you know fucking TSA obviously that's different but takes a little more time you know around more people but I'm just as happy as I was.

[925] Yeah, they've done studies on people that actually complicate their lives with more success, more houses, more things, and it actually makes you more tense.

[926] It gives you more to think about.

[927] Well, you got to, yeah, I mean, you got to keep, you know, you have to feed that beast.

[928] Yeah.

[929] And so you get a little bit of the dog chasing the tail going on.

[930] And, you know, life was moving real, real fast for me then, and it moves a lot slower now, which I don't, I don't, I don't, it might be a little.

[931] little slow for my taste right now, but I don't, I didn't like it when it was that fast.

[932] So you cut back on all the expenses, and what do you, do you earn money now?

[933] Like, what do you do to earn money?

[934] You know, occasionally.

[935] So I'll, I still speak, and sometimes I'm paid to speak.

[936] And then there's just other other appearances.

[937] I mean, I still have some investments that, that, you know, that help sort of ease that pain.

[938] But, you know, and who knows.

[939] And who knows, what the future holds.

[940] I don't know what, what, if that stuff dries up forever or comes back or who knows.

[941] What does it like to sit while this is all going on and watching the economy of this story grow and develop?

[942] Because it's not, it wasn't just the, the lawsuits.

[943] There's also, there's books, there's documentaries, there's all these television shows, it's all its focus, there's ad revenue coming from those shows, there's all these people that are dedicating all this time, like their careers become, a big part of their careers become telling the Lance Armstrong story.

[944] Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a small industry.

[945] Yeah.

[946] I mean, there, there was the industries that benefited on the way up, and I was one of those industries.

[947] They were the sponsor.

[948] I mean, you look at track bicycles, for example.

[949] I mean, before the first tour, I think we did 125 million in sales.

[950] They do a billion now.

[951] So, yeah, that's a big difference.

[952] So you have those sort of industries but then you know on the way down so those are all people making money on the way up and then on the way down uh it's i think it's it did happen but it's probably normal and natural that people capitalize on on the way down i mean look at bill clinton i mean as he's going through everything he went to believe me there were plenty of people going all right now it's my turn to make some money and fair play i mean that's just that's just the way it is and uh you know some people may think that's that's bs but shit i mean everybody was hopping on uh on on the way down.

[953] Well, they have to, right?

[954] Yeah.

[955] I mean, it is a gigantic story.

[956] Now, your friends didn't know what you were doing when it came out.

[957] How many of them had a hard time with it?

[958] How many of them were cool with it?

[959] Like, what was it like?

[960] You know, it's, yes.

[961] I mean, obviously the people, you know, the sponsors fled.

[962] Right.

[963] Did any of them stay?

[964] No. None.

[965] How many did you have at a time?

[966] maybe 10 but they have to leave right I mean like some of them are publicly traded companies so they have concerns about that some of them are just covering their ass whatever but they're all gone and friends are interesting I mean you have I mean just use the foundation as an example right I mean I was on the board I was the chairman of the board I was the founder the board was my friends but these are the friends that say okay you're out and so I get it that that there might be a strategic reason for that.

[967] But then when you never hear from these, then all of a sudden these people disappear from your life.

[968] I mean, the way I sum it up is anytime anybody goes through anything, and I don't know if you've had some heavy shit in your life.

[969] But when you're going through it, people either lean in or they lean out.

[970] And some people lean out, which means they run away.

[971] And you're surprised by that.

[972] And you're like, what the fuck?

[973] I mean, that guy was at every champagne party we threw in Paris.

[974] Right.

[975] And now he's like, I've heard from the dude in three years.

[976] Like, that's strange.

[977] Right.

[978] But he probably has his own motive, either covering his own ass, or maybe he's one of these people that has a tremendous sense of betrayal.

[979] And it's just so pissed still and hurt.

[980] We have to, I mean, I have to be receptive to that.

[981] But then they're the ones who lean in, right?

[982] And most of those people don't surprise you.

[983] But then there are others that lean in and they surprise you.

[984] Like, wow, I didn't know you had my back like that.

[985] And so you get surprised on both sides.

[986] And at the end of it all, dude, you look around and you're like, like, all right, this, this, if these people are here, these are the people that are going to ride anything out with me, which is, is kind of cool and refreshing for me to, to, to, to, to really know, right?

[987] If you're, if you're in the, if you're loading up a bus with all your most loyal closest friends, I fucking know who's on that bus now.

[988] Yeah, you know now.

[989] At this point.

[990] And, and for 20 years, you know, there was just a bunch of chumps that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that on that bus but you know as soon as soon as the the somebody changed the music they hopped off and so um it takes adversity yeah to illuminate that there's no other way and until you test them you really don't know yeah adversity i remember this is a funny we were this is a postal thing but we were once i was out of i don't remember the postmaster general's name his name at the time but we we did a this is totally unrelated but you said adversity so it reminded me he was introducing me at this thing, and he wanted to say, you know, introducing me, he's overcome great adversity.

[991] He says, in his last, he's, he's overcome great diversity.

[992] And I'm even thinking, Jesus, white kid from Plano.

[993] I didn't overcome shit when it came to diversity.

[994] Diversity.

[995] Whoops.

[996] Raising kids.

[997] We both have children, and obviously, when you you're raising your kid, you're teaching them about life, you're trying to set an example.

[998] Yep.

[999] Did you have to sit them down and explain what was going on?

[1000] How old were your youngest at the time?

[1001] Oh, and the youngest, we're one and two.

[1002] Whoa.

[1003] Yeah.

[1004] So you didn't have to explain.

[1005] So I have three kids with my ex -wife, Kristen, and Luke is now 16 and twin girls that are 14.

[1006] And then I have a six - and a five -year -old with Anna.

[1007] and by the way all you know it's the craziest blended family you've ever seen like those five kids are five siblings it's the most beautiful thing and anna and christin are like sisters i mean it's i got a great situation that's awesome awesome awesome takes a lot of work but um or took a lot of work to get to this place but it's awesome and christin to her credit was who i was married to during this this ugly period, and who, you know, would obviously, would have known everything, has been great, whether it's, whether it's conversation she's had with our older children while they're at her house, or just, just helping massage this thing.

[1008] But I'm still sitting down with my kids.

[1009] I mean, our whole, you know, I go to therapy, Anna goes, we all go to them, the kids go.

[1010] So we still sit down and just kind of work this out, dude.

[1011] This is not, this is a complicated thing.

[1012] And the crazy thing is my older kids have kind of gotten through it.

[1013] The six and the five -year -old will come into it, right?

[1014] I mean, the Internet and, you know, fucking Google, Wikipedia, you name it.

[1015] They're going to, they will grow into this.

[1016] Like at some point, my six -year -old boy, who's just a fanatical athlete and everything is sports and sports and sports.

[1017] I mean, I hear him and his friends talk about Tom Brady and one of his friends is like, oh, he's a cheater.

[1018] My son loves Tom Brady.

[1019] He's like, oh, he's a cheater.

[1020] I'm like, oh, he's a cheater.

[1021] I'm like, it ain't going to be.

[1022] long before Max Armstrong is at school and some kid in another class goes, isn't your dad that cheater?

[1023] Like he's going to be like, what?

[1024] Like he doesn't know that, but he, so he's going to grow into that.

[1025] So that conversation will then be had at that time.

[1026] It's tough to have it with a six -year -old today.

[1027] But so I know that's coming, right?

[1028] But I have the experience of having dealt with it with a 16 -year -old boy who at the time was 13 and still dealing with it with those guys.

[1029] You know, so far, I mean, I think we've been super proactive.

[1030] Probably, you know, Anna and Kristen probably think I should have been more proactive.

[1031] But I think it's in, I think that's in a good spot.

[1032] So you have group therapy sessions where you just discuss?

[1033] So I've sat with all three kids, the older kids, you know, and it's just sort of free for all.

[1034] Wow.

[1035] Yeah.

[1036] And they had no idea until the scandal broke.

[1037] Yep.

[1038] And what was their reaction?

[1039] You know, the girls were, they were nine, so they were still, they were young.

[1040] I mean, a nine -year -old girl, they really didn't have a reaction.

[1041] Luke was, you know, was a 13 -year -old boy.

[1042] So they were 11.

[1043] So Luke was 13, they were 11.

[1044] They still sort of were immune to it.

[1045] You know, he was, I mean, he watched, when he watched Oprah, because it aired three or four days later, I had sort of fled to Hawaii.

[1046] I mean, he called me, because I talked about Luke on, on her short.

[1047] show with the whole idea that I know he's defending me at school.

[1048] I mean, there was enough smoke that people were going, dude, your dad's are doper, et cetera, and he was defending me. And my point to Oprah was that at this point I get to say to Luke, stop defending me. You don't need to defend me anymore, right?

[1049] It's true.

[1050] And so he watched that, which is probably a heavy moment for him.

[1051] It would have been awful watching it with him.

[1052] But he called me and said, I understand and I love you and but we still I mean that was three years ago we still have to talk about these things man it how often not not often but it still occasionally comes up especially if you're talking about the importance of being honest and truthful and and having character yeah and he's an athlete I mean look I mean that that's the only thing that I will I mean, I will say, I mean, I don't want, ideal, and my son's huge, six, six, three, two hundred thirty pounds, plays offensive line, like a, well, that's good.

[1053] That is good.

[1054] Not too many people would be fucking with him.

[1055] Yeah, he's, he's, I think he's good there, but he's also a real sweet guy.

[1056] Like, he's not, he's not, he's not, he's not in anybody's face.

[1057] But I don't want him to say his football passion or career, call it what you will, ends up, you know, at a high level.

[1058] I mean, I don't want him in a messy spot where he's got to make tough choices.

[1059] Right.

[1060] In fact, I don't want that at all.

[1061] And football is a sport where you have to make tough choices.

[1062] I mean, I'm not a football player, but I can.

[1063] Yeah, I can imagine.

[1064] I have friends that are.

[1065] Yeah, I can imagine.

[1066] Yeah.

[1067] I mean, and it's also open, and it's also brought up by coaches.

[1068] It's also brought up by trainers.

[1069] I mean, it's just a part of the game as much as I'm sure it is in cycling.

[1070] Yeah.

[1071] Yeah.

[1072] That had to be just, it's just how to like be chewing you apart when you know that your kid's defending you and you know it's going to come out.

[1073] You know he's having these conversations at school and he's like, my dad's not a cheater.

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] Well, we didn't know it was going to come out.

[1076] I mean, even when the Vitsky was investigating, I mean, that case went away, right?

[1077] So we thought at that point, maybe we're done.

[1078] you know and and and and and and and and and and and and and it didn't I mean you saw it picked up uh the investigation and then uh you know based on all his work they picked it up and then it came out but man it fucking it happened fast like it was seemingly like instantaneous man it did it surprise you um yeah yeah I think I mean I guess it's yeah it surprised me but shit, anybody would have been surprised, I suppose.

[1079] And it was just surreal, you know, the way it all came out.

[1080] And in the method at which they sort of advertised the findings, you know, it was, and there was a whole, to their credit, I mean, there was a strategy on their end.

[1081] So let's, let's take Novitsky's work, let's do some additional investigations, let's package it in what's something they called the reasoned decision.

[1082] and then let's go out and talk about it all over the place.

[1083] Like that was kind of unbelievable to me. Why do you think they spent so much time and resources going after you?

[1084] As opposed to all the other people who've won?

[1085] Well, they needed a landmark case.

[1086] I think there's plenty of people that, and I'm just guessing.

[1087] This is not based on any proof.

[1088] And I've had conversations with you, Sada.

[1089] I mean, I think we're still getting to the point where we can do stuff together or have a conversation, so I'm not trying to criticize them.

[1090] I mean, I think there ought to be a place for them.

[1091] But I think there's also realistic, I mean, in reality, there are people that think they're ineffective.

[1092] They think they spend 10 or 20 or 50, whatever the number is, millions of dollars a year, and they don't catch anybody, right?

[1093] I mean, if you look at the amount of positives, it must be, you know, less than one.

[1094] percent.

[1095] Well, if I told you, well, Joe, we're all good, man. It's less than one percent testing positive.

[1096] You would, you'd think that.

[1097] Right.

[1098] Yeah.

[1099] So they needed, they needed a landmark case to say, no, we are effective.

[1100] And here it is.

[1101] And I think also from a legal perspective, it sets some legal precedence for them that they can use going forward in other cases with future future cases but uh and then you add in uh just a ginormous story that was guaranteed uh to get a lot of press but it still pains me to to look i know what went on we all know what went on but i can't take uh when when i hear that that this program or this particular athlete being me was the greatest fraud in the history of sport you know i i can't that's just not true right and then when you hear that our the our team's doping program was the most sophisticated program in the history of sport well we also know that's not true right um so those are and then and then the final one which is really i think bothered a lot of people that that this person being me forced young impressionable young men to put dangerous substances into their body right that just is not true and uh but if i heard somebody If somebody said that about one of my son's friends, I would be pissed off, too.

[1102] Like, I'd be like, dude, screw that guy.

[1103] Right.

[1104] But we all made our own choices.

[1105] We were all grown men.

[1106] They were bad choices, right?

[1107] Most would say, we would say.

[1108] But there was no forcing to do that.

[1109] What is it like now, like, in, I mean, I want to get too personal, but your personal life, like, people value honesty.

[1110] It's one of the most important things in friends.

[1111] and lovers when you have this thing where you're on video over and over and over and over and over and over again being deceptive over and over and over again defending yourself when you it's and then you come out and say it's all a lie and so this is like database of lying like what is it like trying to get people to trust you right hey man that's this is what this is what I talked about in the beginning is that that that road is a is is net that will be never that is a never ending path i will be walking that walk the rest of my life and there are a lot of people that'll say uh -uh i'm never trusting this guy ever again i don't care i don't care how apologetic or contried he is i'm done um but that's that's the the key is that i have to be committed to that path right And so I can walk that walk and take each case individually in one -on -one.

[1112] But talk about endurance.

[1113] I mean, we've talked about endurance.

[1114] That will be the longest walk or the longest journey of my life.

[1115] Do you have a code that you follow now?

[1116] I mean, have you imposed like a stringent set of rules on yourself where like, you know, like because of this history, you can't.

[1117] about anything ever.

[1118] No, I mean, I haven't thought, I mean, I guess the answer is no, because I haven't, there's not been a, you know, sort of a new mission statement or sort of this key, but, but, I mean, life was pretty transparent anyways before that, but, I mean, there was obviously, there was the huge deception, but it's not as if, you know, there's anything crazy out there.

[1119] outside of that right yeah but i mean you know um it's just that's a a big thing with people you know to be able to trust their friends or be able to trust their boyfriend or girlfriend you know yep yep for sure what what is a life like for lance armstrong now like is a is is everything calmed down to the point where the stress is minimized except for the lawsuit uh yeah it's it's it's as i said a second ago it's just simple man i mean i i i still i love to work You know, so I train every day.

[1120] I think that's...

[1121] What do you do?

[1122] I primarily run, and then I'll do a little bit of gym work, and then I'll ride occasionally, although very rarely, very rarely get on a bike.

[1123] Why is that?

[1124] I just...

[1125] It takes too much time, and it's just...

[1126] It takes too much time?

[1127] I mean, you could run for an hour.

[1128] Oh, I see.

[1129] If you do a hard run for an hour, you've got to go ride for three hours.

[1130] Right.

[1131] So that's two more hours that you...

[1132] Plus, you've got to get all the shit on and go out.

[1133] out and deal with traffic and does it psychologically fuck with you when you get on a bike it's a it's it's i mean i i have some bitterness there towards what we've talked about primarily in and around the economy of it how it was right and now everybody's like no no nope we're out or we don't right we're going to you know so that's that's that's but that's that's on me i got to work that out and that's not that's not their fault that's that's my fault so there's some of that and it's nice to do, I love to run.

[1134] I mean, I grew up, I ran before I rode.

[1135] So it's, it's nice to go into something where I can still get, I mean, I view working out, you probably view it the same way.

[1136] It's almost like a therapy.

[1137] Like, you're in there, you're suffering.

[1138] You're just working shit out, right?

[1139] And that's what, that's what I do when I, when I work out, or go for a long run.

[1140] So I do that.

[1141] A joke, I mean, we have, you know, we have five kids.

[1142] They're in four different schools, so it's, I'm like an Uber driver for my kids.

[1143] Traffic in Austin is not like LA but it's bad now it's getting bad now dude and so all I do is like drive my kids around too many people talk about how great Austin is that's what happened right well but they didn't build that city 50 years ago to accommodate two million people no right and then uh I play a play a play a a lot of golf which is why we're going to end this podcast a little bit so I can go play play Riviera today man don't don't mess with my tea time I don't I don't want to mess with your tea time I appreciate your time very much man but uh we're already done we can keep going Want to keep going?

[1144] I don't know if Higgs is here yet.

[1145] I'm sure he's here.

[1146] Someone's calling me. No, it's not on him.

[1147] And then you got the Hunter book.

[1148] We've got to talk a little bit about Hunter.

[1149] Yeah, definitely.

[1150] I didn't know you were a fan until I saw your, maybe Bill Burr, retweeted, maybe your tweet that said, if anybody, if there's one person that's dead that, you know, that I could meet today or was alive, it would be Hunter.

[1151] Yeah, it was a Instagram post that I made about one of his incredible quotes about it was about heroes and it was a it was particularly poignant about uh it was after ronda rousey got knocked out yeah i posted it that people they they love the idea of someone who is like a superhuman person like someone who's a legend someone who who can defy the odds because it gives them hope in this crazy world of boredom and cubicles and i'm doing a shitty job of paraphrasing it but it's a fantastic quote.

[1152] And then you got a hold of me about it and had that incredible book sent to me when Hunter was running for sheriff of Aspen.

[1153] Yep, yep.

[1154] So he, yeah, he just, you know, he kind of ruled the valley.

[1155] I mean, he lived down in Woody Creek, but the whole, the whole valley was, the Rohing Fork Valley was kind of his domain.

[1156] And he was just, and his best friend was our longtime sheriff.

[1157] He was the sheriff for 26 years, Bob Browis, who was a great friend of mine, his undersheriff is probably my best bud there, a guy by the name of Joe DeSalvo.

[1158] So how a kid from Brooklyn ends up in Aspen is now the sheriff is on his second term.

[1159] So Joey and Bob were Hunter's best buddies.

[1160] I mean, fucking crazy stories.

[1161] And not to toot my own horn, but Bob is the sweetest guy.

[1162] He was the guy that was sheriff for 26 years.

[1163] He says to me one day, he says, he calls me Champ, which is also funny.

[1164] He says, champ, he says, did you ever meet Hunter?

[1165] And I said, no, I never met him.

[1166] And he pauses for a long time, and he goes, man, he would have loved you.

[1167] And I was, I took that, I was like, fucking, hey, that is a compliment right there.

[1168] That is a compliment.

[1169] I mean, Hunter was, was nuts in a lot of ways.

[1170] But I know, I mean, he had such a diverse group of friends, whether it's, whether it was our sheriff or whether it was Lyle Lovett or whether it was Johnny Depp or whether it was Doug Brinkley.

[1171] I mean, just, just this diverse group of fucking artists and thinkers and lawmen and, and drugs.

[1172] And, dude, gnarly.

[1173] I mean, he'd go out to the shit they did was just, I probably can't even talk about it.

[1174] I'm sure you can.

[1175] He's dead.

[1176] It's fine.

[1177] Some of the people are still alive.

[1178] He's still alive.

[1179] Well, we were talking before the podcast about his ritual, before he would write, like, superhuman.

[1180] So you read that, and if, for those listening, you just Google, you know, Hunter Thompson's Daily Regime, and it'll come up.

[1181] I think Esquire wrote it.

[1182] And the shit starts it like, what is he?

[1183] He wakes up.

[1184] at like three in the afternoon, right?

[1185] And just, you've got to go read it.

[1186] I mean, it's unbelievable.

[1187] So I thought, this is so unreal, it ain't true.

[1188] So I called Joey, our sheriff, and I said, dude, have you seen this?

[1189] And he says, yeah.

[1190] I said, that's not real.

[1191] You know what he said?

[1192] He said, that isn't enough.

[1193] He said, that's light.

[1194] Can you believe, go read it, people, and then imagine that that didn't quite get there.

[1195] Well, Jamie, why don't you find it?

[1196] Because it's kind of hilarious.

[1197] actually read it on the air dude yeah he um he had a strong tolerance for substances and he i don't think he ever went without i mean it's just he wasn't interested no no yeah i mean that was that was the life that he was interested in he was interested in just getting fucked up and having a great time and and writing about shit and pontificating on the demise of civilization yeah but it but you know i don't know if that's what caught up to him but it definitely did Yeah, I mean, how could you...

[1198] Did you ever see the late appearances?

[1199] I have a really hard time watching these later appearances.

[1200] Like, we would do, like, the Conan O 'Brien show.

[1201] And you couldn't understand a word he was saying.

[1202] Like, here, you can see it right here.

[1203] 3 p .m. rise, 3 .05.

[1204] Shivas Riga with morning papers, Dunhills.

[1205] 3 .45, another glass of Chivas, another Dunhill.

[1206] 4 .5, first cup of coffee.

[1207] Remind her.

[1208] This is PM.

[1209] Yes, PM.

[1210] 415, cocaine, 416, orange juice, Dunhill, 430, cocaine, 454, cocaine, 505, cocaine, 511, coffee, Dunhills, 530, more ice and the shivis, 545, cocaine, et cetera, et cetera, 6 p .m., grass to take the edge off the day.

[1211] Three hours, he's been awake and been stressful.

[1212] Seven o 'clock, Woody Creek Tavern for lunch with Heineken, two margaritas, koslau, taco, salad, double order, fried onion rings, carrot cake, ice cream, a bean fritter Dunhills, another Heineken, cocaine, and for the ride home, a snow cone, a glass of shredded ice over which is poured three or four jiggers of shivas.

[1213] God damn it.

[1214] Nine.

[1215] Start snowing cocaine seriously.

[1216] Now I got serious.

[1217] Ten drops acid.

[1218] 11.

[1219] Shartreuse, cocaine, grass.

[1220] 11 .30.

[1221] Cocaine, et cetera, et cetera.

[1222] Midnight.

[1223] Hunter S. Thompson is ready to write.

[1224] That is.

[1225] And then it keeps going on.

[1226] 12 .05 to 6 a .m. Chartreuse, cocaine, grass, shivis, coffee, Heineken, clove, cigarettes, grapefruit, Dunhills, orange juice, gin, continuous pornographic movies.

[1227] Six.

[1228] In the Hot Tub, Champagne, Dove bars, Fettuccini Alfredio.

[1229] Alfredo, 8 a .m. Halcyon.

[1230] Is that I say it?

[1231] That's the first, that was before I am being.

[1232] Yeah, 8 .20 sleep.

[1233] Wow.

[1234] Jesus Christ.

[1235] So I asked these guys, I asked the sheriffs, I'm like, that shit's not real.

[1236] Yeah, there's the quote that I put.

[1237] Myths and legends die hard in America.

[1238] We love them for the extra dimension they provide, the illusion of near infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality.

[1239] Weird heroes and mold -breaking champions exist as proof to those who needed that the tyranny of the rat race is not yet final.

[1240] I mean, isn't that, I mean, that applies to you, too, dude.

[1241] I understand that.

[1242] Yeah, it applies to your life.

[1243] Yeah.

[1244] I mean, and that's part of the reason, I'm sure, why some people are pissed at you.

[1245] It's like you were a legend with a caveat.

[1246] Yep.

[1247] Yeah.

[1248] I mean, the story in its totality, right?

[1249] If I was just a cyclist, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[1250] But the cancer part of the story, right, is what, you know, everybody relate.

[1251] Nobody could relate to society.

[1252] They got to figure it out.

[1253] They started to watch it.

[1254] Like, cool, he won again.

[1255] Right.

[1256] The cancer part of it, everybody can relate to, right?

[1257] I mean, everybody has either had the disease themselves or lost a loved one or had a loved one or a friend or a neighbor affected by it.

[1258] So they're like, all right, I'm in.

[1259] Like that, that's some bullshit right there, that disease.

[1260] And they rallied around that.

[1261] And that's, you know, that's why that fall came swift and hard, man. Well, there's parallels in life when it comes to this story in a lot of ways because everything is kind of messy.

[1262] You know, the reality versus the narrative, it's always messy.

[1263] And there's so many variables that don't get discussed and there's so many aspects of it that they're flexible and they move around.

[1264] And that's...

[1265] Yeah.

[1266] I mean, more and more now.

[1267] I mean, the transparency we see in our society today, whether it's politicians or politics or sports or entertainment.

[1268] I mean, dude, imagine, like I always say, like, you know, if I give you three names that we're alive today, like Sinatra, we just, you know, just had celebrate his 100th birthday, if you took Sinatra, JFK, and Michael Jordan, and they, and they were at their peak today.

[1269] TMZ alone.

[1270] Would be nuking people.

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] And so it's just, it's, it's, it's, we're just getting deeper and deeper into that.

[1273] Yeah.

[1274] And I think this is just still the beginning.

[1275] Yeah, for sure.

[1276] Well, I think what's going on with technology, too, is we're seeing this very obvious trend, that the boundaries between people and thoughts and ideas and reality and facts, they're getting smaller and smaller to the point where they're going to be erased.

[1277] And I don't know how it's going to happen, but I think it's going to happen with something that connects us in a much more personal way than peripheral devices like laptops or phones.

[1278] I think there's going to be some technology that connects us body -to -body, whether it's some sort of a neural implant or something along those lines.

[1279] Damn.

[1280] I really do.

[1281] I think it's inevitable.

[1282] Yeah.

[1283] I mean, the symbiotic relationship that we have with cell phones right now is undeniable.

[1284] I leave my phone.

[1285] Like you, you dropped your phone.

[1286] You're like, fuck, where's my phone?

[1287] My phone's broken?

[1288] Fuck, fuck, fuck.

[1289] No, here, yeah.

[1290] Yeah.

[1291] I mean, I dropped it, so I did drop my phone, but I'm like, I'm like fucking scratching myself because I haven't had the phone for like two or three hours.

[1292] Yeah.

[1293] Dude, it's, that ain't.

[1294] good.

[1295] No, it's not good.

[1296] I leave my phone sometimes in the car when I go do the podcast and I don't realize that I left it and I'll be in the middle of a great podcast, but like, fuck, my phone's not here.

[1297] I'm not even going to use it.

[1298] It's out there.

[1299] I don't touch it.

[1300] But the fact that it's not physically like, I want it right there.

[1301] Dude, imagine if like, you know, you're on here and you just start, like, you know, you got some guests on and you're like texting them and the guests would be like, what the fuck?

[1302] I come all the way over here.

[1303] This Godforsaken Valley and that L .A. traffic and the guy's on his phone?

[1304] Yeah, well, I have.

[1305] had people that are guests that start checking their Twitter, like Neil Brennan will start checking his Twitter in the middle of the pocket.

[1306] What the fuck are you doing?

[1307] I want to see what people are saying about it.

[1308] Talk to them afterwards.

[1309] Just flip your phone on.

[1310] You don't let people call in and ask questions or tweet and ask questions?

[1311] We've done that before, but the problem is that people that want to do it are usually trolls.

[1312] You know, some of those might be fun.

[1313] If I wanted that kind of a show, I would do an all call -in show, which I think would be fun.

[1314] I did a a couple months ago in Denver, and there's 600 people, and it was kind of a moderated Q &A, and then the audience was allowed to ask questions.

[1315] And people were cool.

[1316] They were asking questions, and the moderator says, and there's a line to get to the mic to ask questions, and the guy says, not that this lady, I'm not calling her a troll, but the guy says, is anybody in line really pissed at Lansing want to ask a question?

[1317] This lady in the back, she's like, me. She comes trucking up there.

[1318] And so, you know, I was like, this is going to be super interesting.

[1319] Like, what the hell is she going to ask me?

[1320] How am I going to answer it?

[1321] So I, you know, maybe I like a challenge, but...

[1322] You definitely like a challenge.

[1323] I think you're just bored.

[1324] In between golf games, you want to spar with somebody verbally.

[1325] Hey, ask Kigs if my phone got fixed.

[1326] Did he text you?

[1327] Let me see.

[1328] He's probably out there.

[1329] I looked when I went to go the bathroom.

[1330] It says, ha, cool, thanks.

[1331] That's the last thing he said.

[1332] Here, I'll text him right now.

[1333] You out there?

[1334] Who says ha cool, cool?

[1335] thanks he did because he said because I said you wanted Advil he says I said Lance would like you to bring Advil he says ha cool thanks and I said you out there yeah it was his birthday last night so we went out to dinner and just we got you know way too drunk it happens dude it happens what we were talking about about technology though about bringing people closer together and this the fact that There's going to, I mean, I really think there's going to be no secrets.

[1336] I don't think anybody's going to have secrets from anybody in the future.

[1337] Right.

[1338] I think you kind of, you caught, like, the wave of this trend before it got even crazier than it.

[1339] I mean, you caught that wave.

[1340] And even in 2012, the comparison between 2012 and 2015, it's like, it's ramped up considerably.

[1341] For sure.

[1342] And it'll continue to do that.

[1343] There's no getting around it, right?

[1344] Yeah.

[1345] Is that good?

[1346] Is that a good thing?

[1347] Or is it just what it is?

[1348] Yeah.

[1349] You and I are not going to stop it, so it's inevitable.

[1350] No one is.

[1351] Nobody's.

[1352] I think it's going to not just, it's just, it's, one of the things that's going to happen is it's not going to just be celebrities.

[1353] It's not going to be just people like you, people like Michael Jordan or whoever.

[1354] Right.

[1355] It's going to be everybody.

[1356] Right.

[1357] It's going to be, if you want to find out anything about Jamie, it's going to be all on the table.

[1358] Maybe Jamie was one of those Ashley Madison clients.

[1359] He could have been.

[1360] Maybe Novitsky was.

[1361] Ha!

[1362] Well, there have been some fucking ridiculous people that were that want to kill themselves when, like, preachers and shit like that, that it was found out.

[1363] But how dumb do you have to be to think that that's going to be secure?

[1364] You're going to go on some dating site?

[1365] I mean, come on, man. That's insane.

[1366] But, you know, what kind of a fucking weirdo wants to find out about people that were on the dating site?

[1367] Like, what do you give a shit?

[1368] Leave me alone.

[1369] Exactly.

[1370] But that's not the world we live in, right?

[1371] I got to take a leak again.

[1372] Do you?

[1373] Well, let's end this fucking thing.

[1374] Let's end it.

[1375] Yeah, we're done.

[1376] I think we're done.

[1377] It's 11 .30.

[1378] It's not supposed to tee off at 1130, but.

[1379] All right.

[1380] Were you?

[1381] Really?

[1382] But I'm going to meet them out there.

[1383] It's all good.

[1384] It's all good, man. Well, thank you, Lance.

[1385] I really appreciate it.

[1386] Thank you.

[1387] Thanks for doing this.

[1388] And thanks for listening, whoever.

[1389] Hopefully, somebody listened.

[1390] A lot of people listen.

[1391] I'm sure.

[1392] All right.

[1393] That's it.

[1394] Bye, everybody.

[1395] Bye.