378. 23andMe (and You, and Everyone Else)

[0] In 2018, police in Sacramento, California, arrested a man who had been eluding them for decades.

[1] The Golden State Killer, as he'd been known, was responsible for more than a dozen murders and 50 rapes.

[2] This morning, new details of the rigorous investigation that detectives say brought down the Golden State killer more than 40 years after his alleged killing spree began.

[3] Detectives had uploaded a DNA sample from the suspect to an open -futable.

[4] source website called Jedmatch.

[5] The site provides, in its words, DNA and genealogical analysis tools for amateur and professional researchers and genealogists.

[6] We've just learned from multiple law enforcement sources that investigators use genealogy websites to help link DeAngelo to what was previously the unknown mystery DNA of the attacker.

[7] Jedmatch lets anyone upload raw DNA data from home genetics testing companies like 23 and and Ancestry .com.

[8] It turned out that at least 24 relatives of the suspect were included in the Jedmatch database.

[9] The police, by cross -referencing the suspect's DNA data against census data and cemetery records, were able to confirm that they had the right guy.

[10] Police say the 72 -year -old appeared surprised when they swarmed his home Tuesday evening.

[11] More than 100 pages of heavily redacted court documents read like a real -life.

[12] CSI, revealing that a DNA sample recovered this April sealed the case against him.

[13] How remarkable is that?

[14] But a bunch of civilians, just looking to fill out their family trees, had inadvertently crowdsourced the capture of a murder.

[15] But not everybody saw it as remarkable in just that way.

[16] I'm Anne Wigiski, and I am the co -founder and CEO of 23 and Me. 23 and Me has become world famous for their mail -in DNA.

[17] spit kit.

[18] You send them some saliva, and for $99, they'll send you an ancestry profile, and for another $100, a lot of health information, from your purported risk of various diseases to whether you should be able to detect the smell of asparagus in your urine.

[19] But since the beginning, Wigiski says she was hypersensitive about how and where the personal data of 23 and me customers would be used.

[20] In our consent front, we specifically thought about, like, How do we make sure that we're not set up for crime and, you know, for, like, the FBI to come and use this?

[21] One story we read about recently was how the Chinese government has been using DNA testing, much of it driven by technology and data from the U .S., to enforce what some human rights advocates see is discrimination against racial groups like the U .GERS.

[22] Does 23 and me think about or participate in some kind of international regulatory structure to ensure that this kind of data is not used for, discrimination, oppression, etc. Since the early days of the company, there's a group called the Ethical Legal Social Community that has actively followed 23 Me and what we're doing and what our consequences are.

[23] So what's interesting is, like, people often compare us to the tech world and what's happening now.

[24] There's a big difference because there's never really been an ethical legal social group following Google and Facebook and others, but we've always been hounded by this group.

[25] And frankly, I'm grateful to them, now because I think that we premeditated, like a lot of, you know, what's coming in things like the Golden State Killer.

[26] If you think the arrest of the Golden State Killer represents a revolutionary use of personal DNA, just wait, because the revolution is only just beginning.

[27] Today, on Freakonomics Radio, what the revolution looks like from inside 23 and me?

[28] I think we have a long ways to go here.

[29] and from the user end.

[30] And in the middle of the night, I sometimes ask myself this question.

[31] Who am I?

[32] Who am I now that I know the truth?

[33] From Stitcher and Dubner Productions, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything.

[34] Here's your host, Stephen Dovner.

[35] Anne Wigiske's own family tree is pretty impressive.

[36] She's the youngest of three daughters born to Stanley Wichiske, an emeritus professor of physics at Stanford, and Esther Wichiske, a journalist and beloved educator who's won many awards.

[37] Esther recently published a book called How to Raise Successful People.

[38] One of their daughters, Janet, is a globetrotting anthropologist and epidemiologist.

[39] Here's Anne again.

[40] She's living in Japan now.

[41] She has studies in Rwanda and, you know, in rural Alaska.

[42] And then there's YouTube.

[43] Come on, don't leave out YouTube, sister.

[44] Oh, she's interesting, too.

[45] I love her, too.

[46] Susan Wojcicki, the oldest sister, is the CEO of YouTube, which is owned by Google.

[47] She was Google's first marketing manager, its 16th employee overall.

[48] But her Google connection predates her employment.

[49] When the company was just getting started, Susan Wojcicki rented out part of her house to Google founders, Larry Page, and Sergey Brin.

[50] The Google Wojcicki Link expanded when sister Anne Wigiski, shortly after founding 23 and me, married Sergey Brin.

[51] They had two kids and divorced eight years later in 2015.

[52] Anne Wigiske, who's now 45 years old, went to college at Yale, where she majored in biology and played varsity ice hockey.

[53] After graduating, she went to work in finance, primarily as a health care analyst for investment funds.

[54] Her focus was on biotech firms.

[55] Wall Street was my, like, really in -depth look at the health care system and how it works.

[56] And I started to realize that if I was a healthy 100 -year -old, if I was never diabetic, I never had heart disease, I never had, you know, walking issues, I'm not generating money for the health care system.

[57] There's not a money -making opportunity in saying, well, I'm going to solve how to keep you healthy.

[58] Wojcicki realized that the U .S. health care system and its investors were really good at monetizing illness.

[59] What about wellness?

[60] Not so profitable.

[61] The problem is that the payment system is set up that you pay for treatments of conditions, but you don't pay for ongoing health.

[62] If I stay healthy, like, no one really cares, except for me. the consumer voice was really not represented.

[63] And it's a shame that there's not really a business model in place to say, I'm going to reward you for keeping you healthier.

[64] And then I read that Larry Page, one of the co -founders of Google, told you that even though you were doing this, you know, pretty interesting, good work on Wall Street, that you were really part of the problem and not the solution.

[65] Was that really, I mean, how true was that story?

[66] Was that a really big push for you deciding, hey, I'm going to get out of this, business of profiting from this kind of misaligned health care system and instead try to start a company that does something different?

[67] Well, by the end of, you know, my tenure on Wall Street, after 10 years, I was sort of in this very cynical place of like, you know, my sister would give a talk.

[68] She does work on obesity, and she would give a talk about obesity in the coming crisis and how it's going to be, you know, detrimental to society.

[69] And I would give the corollary talk that's like obesity, the ultimate money -making opportunity.

[70] You know, to say, oh, obesity in China.

[71] You know, like, these people aren't just going to, you know, get sick and die right away.

[72] It's, you know, 20 years of heart disease, diabetes, this and that.

[73] And people would look at me like I was evil.

[74] And I was like, no, I'm just reflective of how the system thinks.

[75] And so I was becoming really cynical.

[76] Like, look, this system, it is meant for making money off sick people.

[77] And it was at that point where I would brainstorm with people.

[78] people.

[79] Like, what can we do?

[80] We need a revolution.

[81] So I would complain a lot.

[82] And I think one day Larry was tired of me complaining and was just like, in his Larry way, was like, you're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem.

[83] And it sounds like you're part of the problem right now.

[84] And, you know, it wasn't the only motivating factor, but it's, you know, it's a good reminder.

[85] In 2006, Wojcicki co -founded 23 and me with the biologist Linda Avey and the entrepreneur Paul Kisenza.

[86] It was one of the first.

[87] first direct -to -consumer personal genomics companies, since then a few dozen DNA testing kit services have come to market.

[88] The MIT Technology Review predicts that by 2021, more than 100 million people will be part of commercial genetic databases.

[89] A lot of people are just in it for the family connections.

[90] That's the main appeal of the biggest player, Ancestry .com.

[91] But 23 and me has, from the outset, also offered the option of a personalized health report.

[92] It's a saliva test, remember, not a blood test.

[93] It doesn't diagnose disease.

[94] Instead, it purports to link your genetic makeup to potential risk for certain diseases and the likelihood of other traits.

[95] With 5 million customers who've bought the health reports, 23 and Me has the world's largest database of genetic information for medical research.

[96] And that, as we'll hear today, comes with a lot of complications.

[97] When 23 and Me was starting out, their health reports, were not approved by the FDA.

[98] Wigiski didn't think they needed the approval, but the FDA disagreed.

[99] In November of 2013, we got a warning letter from the FDA.

[100] Federal law states that any kit intended to cure, mitigate, treat, prevent, or diagnose a disease is a medical device that needs to be declared safe by the FDA.

[101] We did not believe at that time that we were a medical device.

[102] And to this day, you know, a lot of what we do is very different than traditional medical devices.

[103] So it became abundantly clear, you know, with our warning letter, like, there's no more debate.

[104] We are a medical device.

[105] And what we were asked to do was to stop returning health information.

[106] We could continue returning raw data and we could continue returning ancestry information, but we had to stop interpreting the health information for our customers and we had to go through an FDA process.

[107] And what was the response in your building to that letter that must have felt like a punch in the gut?

[108] It was more like, wow, well, the onus is really on us.

[109] Like, we own the responsibility to prove to the FDA that this is actually a responsible company and product.

[110] So we went through, you know, methodically trying to go and get approvals for our past reports.

[111] And it was hard work.

[112] But if the FDA wants data, like, wow.

[113] Wow, we're good at generating data.

[114] And so we'll prove it.

[115] And frankly, I am grateful to the FDA that when I buy a product, I have a high confidence that it's safe.

[116] So as much as I was upset about this, I'm also respectful of the position that they're in that they have a job to monitor public safety.

[117] In 2017, the FDA gave 23 and me permission to send their customers genetic risk reports for 10 ailments or conditions, including breast and ovarie.

[118] cancer, celiac disease, late -onset Alzheimer's disease, and Parkinson's disease.

[119] Here's what the agency said at the time.

[120] These are the first direct -to -consumer tests authorized by the FDA, which may help to make decisions about lifestyle choices or to inform discussions with a health care professional.

[121] We're really trying to make a constructive difference in the healthcare space.

[122] And I'm using all that information I had to empower the customer, to empower all of us.

[123] us to take charge and make a difference and actually, like, be healthy.

[124] Right.

[125] So by pursuing a vision that is about a solution and that doesn't monetize illness, you started a company that's now valued somewhere around between $2 and $3 billion.

[126] Is that about roughly right?

[127] You know, it's kind of the least of my worries.

[128] Like valuations are always important, but to me, the ultimate financial success.

[129] When I can point to, like, hey, like 20 million people didn't die in their 40s because of me, then I'll feel like, yeah, that's worth bragging about.

[130] I mean, the irony, though, is that you have successfully monetized the, I don't know exactly what to call it, the curiosity about or the pursuit of wellness and or connection.

[131] I think I actually disagree.

[132] One thing that drives me crazy in health care is that there's always this assumption that you and I, the individuals, the lay people, the non -PHDs, the non -MDs, that we are in capable of taking care of ourselves.

[133] And I think people, when they're sick, or they're given the opportunity, like, they actually want to step up.

[134] They just need that advice and they need the information, you know.

[135] The majority of people who are thinking about getting pregnant don't necessarily get carrier status screening before the pregnancy.

[136] But if I walk into my doctor and I say, hey, I'm thinking of having children and I'm a carrier for cystic fibrosis and my partner is a carrier for this mutation, that's a helpful dialogue.

[137] So we potentially fill in clues that wouldn't have otherwise come up.

[138] And do you feel that physicians and medical providers are taking this information in the spirit that you intend it?

[139] Well, I think we have a long ways to go here.

[140] We've put a fair amount of resources in the last couple years in terms of outreach to key providers.

[141] The next phase of this company is specifically about helping people take action with this genetic information and also helping the medical community value consumers coming with their genetic information.

[142] The thing I'm most proud of is that we have shown that you can get this information on your own, truly direct to consumer without a physician and without a genetic counselor.

[143] And I think that's a monumental step for the customer, for the individual.

[144] And the reality's average person has, you know, less than 10 minutes with their doctor, this is an opportunity for people to educate themselves in a way that best suits them.

[145] If I'm a doctor or the AMA hearing you say that, I shudder a little bit, though, because most doctors I know in most literature I've read on it says that one of the biggest problem that the medical profession has now is people coming in with information that's often incomplete or wrong.

[146] So persuade me that you defend that position because it's the right position and not just because you've chosen for your firm to go the route of direct -to -consumer rather than with physician or genetic counseling contact.

[147] Well, I think that the consumer today often doesn't have a relationship with a primary care provider.

[148] So I do think that there's a responsibility for the consumer to get educated, to have information, to keep track of it.

[149] So as you spoke, you made the assumption, like, well, some of the information is incomplete or wrong.

[150] Like, we just went through the FDA process.

[151] We prove the information we have is valuable and it's correct.

[152] There are a couple important caveats to consider here.

[153] Many other personal genomics companies do require some sort of physician approval or genetic counseling to ensure that customers don't misinterpret the risk information or perhaps make poor decisions based on it.

[154] Also, even though a 23 and Me risk report is definitively not a diagnosis, you can imagine how learning about a risk can carry some costs in addition to the benefits.

[155] It sounds as though you believe in the upside of knowing as much as you can as early as you can, but I'm guessing you can also empathize with those people who think that, wow, you know, just having that word in my head, Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, might exact a cost.

[156] It might not allow me to live my life to the fullest.

[157] I think this is where I go to that whole choice again.

[158] Too much of health care is forced on us.

[159] I think that health care should empower people with more choice.

[160] And it's like one of the core tenants that we have is like if you don't want to know your Alzheimer's results, you absolutely should not know them.

[161] And that's your choice.

[162] And so that's why we actually do have an additional layer of consent on top of Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, breast cancer.

[163] So we want to make sure that our customers are never shocked and surprised.

[164] Two years after 23 and Me was cleared by the FDA to deliver those 10 risk reports, it launched a new health report for type 2 diabetes, one of the most common diseases in the world.

[165] A recent CDC study estimates that roughly 40 % of the adult U .S. population, is expected to develop diabetes during their lifetime.

[166] It's the seventh leading cause of death in the U .S. The 23 and Me risk report for diabetes is particularly interesting in that it was developed exclusively using 23 and Me customer data, more than 2 .5 million customers who consented to participate.

[167] It also used a new method of detecting disease risk.

[168] One of the most interesting things that's come up scientifically over the last decade is these what's called polygenic risk scores.

[169] So not looking at just one gene and a disease, but looking at thousands or even millions of small effect sizes and adding all of those up to see, wow, this really adds up to a risk factor for people.

[170] And we feel like this is a lot of the direction where health care is going to go is in these polygenic risk scores.

[171] You might have expected that a new diabetes risk test would generate a lot of enthusiasm, but much of the immediate response was critical.

[172] Polygenic risk scores work best for people of the same ethnic background as those who provided the data that goes into the risk algorithm.

[173] And 23 and Me's database is overwhelmingly composed of people of European descent.

[174] Diabetes is an especially significant threat for African Americans.

[175] An article in Wired argued that the new 23MMEA diabetes risk test is tuned to be most useful for skinny white people.

[176] So let me ask you this.

[177] I know your database is pretty European heavy and some people think it's way too white.

[178] But, you know, it's also voluntary.

[179] So I don't know what kind of diversity you're trying to encourage, but let me just ask you about one particular element of that question.

[180] As I'm sure you well know, there's a really long and terrible history in this country of African Americans being exploited by the medical system.

[181] You know, some of the stories are just truly horrifying.

[182] And the data show that African -Americans today are still much less likely to participate in the health care system, whether that's a direct cause or not, who knows.

[183] And that's got a serious downside.

[184] So are we seeing that same reluctance now?

[185] Do you think among, you know, the African -American population, maybe other populations that there's just a skepticism, the idea of putting their DNA into a database like this is too, you know, frightening?

[186] And if that's true, what are we, the universe missing out on by not having the sample be as representative as we might like?

[187] Yeah, I think that's a great question.

[188] So first, you know, we have 20 % roughly of our customers are non -European.

[189] So while that's a small percent, that said, on our size and scale, it is the largest such communities out there.

[190] So we're actually really able to do a lot of research on different communities.

[191] That said, I'm absolutely empathetic to some of these communities that have been poorly treated.

[192] Secondly, we're doing a lot to try and improve relationships there.

[193] And so we actually have a global genetic diversity project where we are recruiting individuals from specific countries like Tanzania and Cameroon, Chad.

[194] So we have a bunch of countries where we're actually offering, you know, free testing for people to come in.

[195] And part of the reason why we do that is the more people who come in from those communities than we can actually develop the reports to be representative of all populations.

[196] So building a risk test that's useful for as many people as possible, that's one challenge.

[197] But there's another big challenge, perhaps far greater, when it comes to dispensing personalized health risk reports.

[198] How do you translate the knowledge of risk into action?

[199] How do you ensure that someone who learns they're at risk for someone, major disease actually does anything about it, other than worry or get depressed.

[200] We have a lot of information on the site in terms of like what are resources for you so that people look at this and they at least know where to go.

[201] We're actively now looking at programs of ways to help people better understand food and behavior.

[202] And our first step with that was this partnership we have with LARC.

[203] It's AI coaching and it's trying to help people change their behaviors.

[204] And I think that's sort of the next generation of what's coming.

[205] So give me whatever evidence there may be that learning about an increased risk via 23 and me or some other genetic test actually leads to changes in individual behavior.

[206] Well, we actually did a study with Robert Green at Harvard.

[207] And he looked at our saturated fat report.

[208] And he was looking at what people want to do with this information.

[209] And he found that I think it was even at six months, over 40 % of our customers, whether they had an increased risk of being overweight from saturated fat or not, they were looking to make changes to their diet.

[210] What does that mean looking to make change?

[211] And that was sustainable at six months.

[212] Like doing it or looking to do it?

[213] Well, what we find is like a lot of people don't know, like, what is saturated fat?

[214] Well, what do I do?

[215] People get a BRCA result or they get carrier status information.

[216] They write into us and they tell us what they are doing.

[217] Customers all over the world that I end up meeting and telling me about what they learned and how they've changed.

[218] The study that Wojcicki cited, Robert Green of Harvard, was one of several co -authors.

[219] It's not quite as persuasive as one might hope.

[220] It's called Diet and Exercise Changes Following Direct to Consumer Personal Genomic Testing, and it involved an online survey of about 1 ,000 users of 23 and Me and another personal genetics company.

[221] First of all, keep in mind something we've said on the show many, many times.

[222] Self -reported data are not necessarily the most robust data, and I'm putting that kindly.

[223] This survey asked people about their diet and exercise habits just before they received their health risk reports, and again, six months later.

[224] The studies authors write, although nearly a third of participants reported making diet and exercise changes that were directly motivated, by their personal genomic testing results, there was no consistent evidence that specific genetic risk information received from personal genomic testing were associated with the specific diet and exercise variables that we measured.

[225] In other words, maybe people who sign up for a genetic risk report are the kind of people who are already motivated to make a change.

[226] And getting the risk report may be a consequence of that change, not a cause.

[227] We found another study suggesting this explanation may be the truer one.

[228] So I am looking at a 2016 British Medical Journal report about whether genetic testing leads people to alter their lifestyles or behaviors.

[229] And it finds basically it doesn't.

[230] It says, quote, expectations have been high that giving people information about their genetic risk will empower them to change their behavior to eat more healthily or to stop smoking, for example.

[231] But we have found no evidence that this is the case.

[232] So we know behavior change is really hard.

[233] And I'm just curious, I guess, about holistically overall confidence that the information will actually be a net gain.

[234] I'd throw the Larry Page quote back at you.

[235] Like, if you're really that down on humanity that you don't think people can change their behaviors and there's no way of getting them to change their behaviors, it's a really sad outlook.

[236] And I believe that there is a way to do that.

[237] and we just haven't figured out the right way.

[238] And I look at a lot of these cognitive behavior tools that are online that are working.

[239] Like honestly, you look at the diabetes prevention program that started in the early 2000s and that that was better than most drug therapies out there.

[240] So there are ways to get people to change your behavior.

[241] I'm really optimistic about the potential of the Internet.

[242] I think it's a sad state that the majority, of the medical world has essentially resigned themselves that people are not willing to change.

[243] And I'm a believer in humanity that people, given the right tools, I think people will step up.

[244] I am so optimistic about your optimism and I'm generally very much an optimist as well.

[245] But the only thing I would say on this point in particular in terms of especially personal health is that we do have a lot of data.

[246] in the modern era, when the risk factors to personal health have been really pronounced in part by the abundance and cheapness of low -grade food and the ability to be really sedentary.

[247] And what we see is that even though we have known for quite a long time now what a good diet looks like, what good sleep looks like, the dangers of smoking, the benefits of exercise, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, the vast majority of people are not able to commit themselves to that routine, even though the knowledge.

[248] is there.

[249] And it speaks, I think, to a lot of things that are complicated about humans, which is things that are pleasurable are really hard to constrain.

[250] And I just wonder if maybe, you know, the issue is that the people like you who are incredibly accomplished and intelligent, but also disciplined, maybe assume that the rest of us are as disciplined as you are and whether that's a sort of disconnect.

[251] I base more of this experience.

[252] And even, a lot of my customers, like customers all over the world that I end up meeting or people who, you know, are doing my hair for a talk and telling me about what they learned and how they've changed.

[253] I think the one thing to recognize, like, it's absolutely hard.

[254] It's much easier to say, here's a pill.

[255] Your high risk for type two diabetes or you're pre -diabetic, here's metformin, like take a pill and be done.

[256] It's harder to change behavior.

[257] And that's 100 percent, but it doesn't mean it's impossible.

[258] And there's something about your DM.

[259] of getting something that's in black and white, that's like, wow, we should potentially really take this seriously.

[260] Coming up after a quick break, the clock is always ticking.

[261] For somebody with a fatal illness, that can be maddening.

[262] Like, I just gave you my data.

[263] Like, do something.

[264] Anne Wigiske is CEO and a co -founder of the Personal Genetics Testing Company 23 and me. It provides for a fee of 99.

[265] a wealth of information about your ancestry, and for $199, an additional report on your health characteristics and risks.

[266] The company has about 10 million total customers, slightly more than half of whom buy the full Ancestry Plus health report.

[267] But those are one -time fees.

[268] Is that enough to justify the company's valuation of several billion dollars?

[269] Here's another way to look at it.

[270] 23 and me charges people, a couple hundred dollars, to supply individual genetic information, which, when aggregated with millions of other people, creates a database that may have massive implications for the future of health care and for the financial future of 23 and Me. Last year, the British pharmaceutical firm, GlaxoSmith Klein, made a $300 million investment in 23 and Me in exchange for the rights to use their genetic data for drug discovery.

[271] In addition to GSK, 23 and Me has partnered with or taken investments from Pfizer, Genentech, and Procter & Gamble, as well as several non -industry partners, including universities and institutes.

[272] So let's start with just what you're trying to accomplish in these cases and how your data gets put to use.

[273] Or maybe I should say how our data collectively gets put to use.

[274] Yeah, one thing I always found interesting when I was on Wall Street is that people would consent.

[275] to be part of research, and then they'd find out that nothing had happened to their sample.

[276] What do you mean, nothing had happened to their sample?

[277] Like, they were disappointed that nothing happened?

[278] So cancer patients, for instance, consent to a study at Harvard, for instance, or Stanford, and then they find out that their sample is just sitting in a refrigerator.

[279] And for somebody with a fatal illness, that can be maddening.

[280] Like, I just gave you my data.

[281] Like, do something.

[282] In the early days of 23 and me, Wajiski says they recruited a community of sarcoma patients to share their genetic data with the hopes of advancing research.

[283] Sarcoma is one of those diseases that's very diverse.

[284] It's poorly understood.

[285] You know, it's hard for anyone's center to have enough patients to do big research projects.

[286] We had all these people come in and we talked about different ways.

[287] We're going to do research and, you know, consent.

[288] And we're getting their feedback.

[289] I remember the woman looking at me. she's like, Anne, I'm going to die in the next 12 months.

[290] Like, stop asking me. Like, do something meaningful that's either going to have an impact on me or is going to have an impact on my children.

[291] And I think about that all the time.

[292] When I look at academia, there's a lot of fiefdoms.

[293] You know, like, it's hard for one center on the East Coast to share samples with another center on the West Coast.

[294] And it became almost insulting to me. Like, I want to do more.

[295] And so 23 Me is a platform, essentially for people to say, I want my data to be used broadly in research.

[296] And frankly, pharma companies are the companies that are discovering treatments for diseases.

[297] 23 Me has over 150 publications that we've done, and we've done hundreds of studies.

[298] Almost every disease has representation.

[299] So we have over 19 ,000 people with Parkinson's.

[300] We have over a million people who are genetically high risk for Alzheimer's.

[301] 800 ,000 people with heart disease, over 10 ,000 people with colorectal cancer, 750 ,000 people with depression.

[302] So massive numbers.

[303] We're trying to allow individuals to have an impact on the research world and discoveries and improve, you know, the state of health care for all.

[304] Are these the largest such numbers in the world?

[305] Oh, by far.

[306] There should be more media outcry that I'm not doing enough, frankly.

[307] A cynic might have a different complaint.

[308] A cynic might say that Anne Wigiske tells an origin story about 23 and me that's based on her disgust with how Wall Street monetized illness, but that the firm she built uses consumer data to partner with pharmaceutical companies in order to monetize illness.

[309] When we asked listeners of our show what they most wanted to hear about, when it comes to home DNA testing, a majority dealt with privacy.

[310] The privacy concern was one that we hear a lot.

[311] And another is, frankly, it's profit.

[312] So the idea is like, wait a minute, I'm paying 23 and me for a kit and the test and the results.

[313] $100 for just ancestry or $200 for health and ancestry.

[314] So I'm paying for the service.

[315] But then I read that 23 and me uses my genetic data to make commercial, deals with pharmaceutical companies or so on.

[316] And then I start to think, well, okay, I opted in.

[317] I understand that.

[318] And I really like the idea of advancing science.

[319] But shouldn't you be paying me for that instead of me paying you?

[320] Because my data is worth a lot more to you than maybe it is to me. Right.

[321] So the most important thing I found from customers is that they want to see the results.

[322] They're not interested in like a $50 check.

[323] I think, secondly, like we're not a profitable company.

[324] We are doing all kinds of research deals.

[325] We have our own drug discovery team.

[326] We are also investing a lot in researching prevention.

[327] So the theoretical funding of like, oh, all this money coming in is not there.

[328] That said, we're really committed and I think this is something that we think about quite a bit in the long term when we do have a successful therapeutic on the market.

[329] Or I do have a successful way of preventing a condition.

[330] How do I give back to my customers?

[331] And that's 10 years out.

[332] So at this stage, the most important thing I can do is give people a sense of pride of what they have done and say, here's the papers that you've been part of, here's the contribution that you've had.

[333] And I think that as we develop therapeutics, when that theoretical, you know, cash flow can come, we'll have to think about what's that right way that our customers feel like they've benefited.

[334] Do you know what the first one or two therapeutics will be?

[335] I mean, the one thing I learned from biotech is that at this stage, you never know.

[336] We have 13, 14 compounds in research stage and in development.

[337] I'm hopeful that we will be in humans in the coming years.

[338] And it's diverse from, you know, cancer to asthma, heart disease.

[339] And, you know, we have this big partnership with GSK.

[340] And what was great there is that we needed a partner who could help us scale.

[341] If I know that I have a genetic discovery and I'm sitting on it, like, my customer should be angry at me. I should do whatever I can to try to develop those sooner.

[342] And so that was the beauty.

[343] GSK really helps us scale.

[344] How does 23 and me protect?

[345] a customer's privacy, generally?

[346] I mean, privacy is key to the company.

[347] So in terms of, like, internet security, we do everything we can, recognizing that there's always limits.

[348] We try to be very real with people.

[349] When you're online, there's always a risk.

[350] But we do everything we can to make sure from engineering, infrastructure, and a data security, we're doing everything we can there.

[351] Has 23 and me ever been substantially hacked?

[352] No. I'm really proud of the team.

[353] You know, we had a lot of our core engineers from the early days came from banking.

[354] And, you know, I love saying, like, look, your DNA is beautiful, but would I rather see your DNA or your bank account?

[355] So there's a lot to learn from the banking industry.

[356] The thing that we've really tried to pioneer is sharing options.

[357] So for instance, right now in HIPAA, you know, it's really super restrictive.

[358] And I would say it's harmful.

[359] A lot of the ways HIPAA functions, it prevents any kind of beneficial sharing.

[360] And what 23 of me has tried to pioneer is saying, I'm giving you options.

[361] The thing people don't understand about privacy is what privacy means is choice.

[362] Is that I want the choice of saying I opt in and I want the choice of opting out.

[363] Now, let's say I want to opt into all those things, but I'm also concerned that my data, non -aggregated, non -anonomized data, may somehow end up in the hands of one day a health care company or insurer or an employer, present or future, or a future partner or spouse.

[364] So we explicitly say we never share your individual level data without your explicit consent.

[365] So unless you have explicitly told us we can share your individual level data, we are never going to.

[366] When someone decides to take a home DNA test, whether for the health risk profile, or just for ancestry purposes, there's one huge variable that is perhaps impossible to prepare for.

[367] How the information contained therein will affect you and the people you know and perhaps people you don't know.

[368] Police say the 72 -year -old appeared surprised when they swarmed his home Tuesday evening.

[369] A very public outcome, like the capture of the Golden State Killer, may be rare, at least for now.

[370] Much more common are the revelation that can reverberate within a given family.

[371] In 2010, when Anne Wojcicki was still married to Sergey Brin, one of the founders of Google, Brin took a 23 -Me test and learned he had a genetic mutation associated with higher rates of Parkinson's disease.

[372] It's an interesting story because it was recommended to us that there was no reason to test because it was so unlikely that he would ever have it.

[373] And so right there, it's like kind of, of an example where the medical community was like, don't bother getting the information.

[374] There's no reason to get it.

[375] And what would you do if you did have it?

[376] So, you know, the convenience of having a genetic testing company is like, well, don't mind me. We'll put that mutation on our chip.

[377] And so we were able to test for it.

[378] And I remember the moment sitting in the kitchen and being like, hold on a second.

[379] Like, I think your mom, like, she has two copies of this.

[380] And you have one copy.

[381] And like, the surprise of like, holy cow, like, you guys have this.

[382] And the advantage of finding out young is that it gives a lot of time to think about what are the actions you're doing and how do you want to try and prevent and how do you want to live your life.

[383] Did everyone in your family do a 23 -me DNA test?

[384] Yeah.

[385] For a while, we felt bad.

[386] We'd have relatives visiting and we'd present them with a spit kit.

[387] We're like, no, no, no. It's not an entry criteria to dinner.

[388] You know, we're just really interested in building the family tree in this way.

[389] It's super interesting.

[390] Now, I understand you learned at least one surprising thing in the familial DNA testing.

[391] Yeah, my mom called me one day, and she's like, you know, there's this guy on 23 mean.

[392] It looks like we're pretty closely related to him.

[393] And I joke because she's a brother who, you know, who never had children, but lo and behold, it turns out that, you know, he did have a child and was given up for adoption.

[394] And, you know, this person was raised as an only child and then suddenly logs in to 23 Me. And lo and behold, there's a lot of us on 23 Me. And so, you know, it's been really lovely.

[395] There's a lot of things I can see, you know, similarities with my uncle, similarities with the family.

[396] So you've developed a relationship, it sounds like, yeah?

[397] Oh, yeah, for sure.

[398] Oh, no, we see them quite a bit.

[399] To me, one of the most exciting things that 23Me is doing is redefining family, identifying people who were part of the family.

[400] family, that for one reason or another, have, you know, been disconnected.

[401] As a child of Jewish descent, you know, lots of family left Russia and the Holocaust, and it's amazing to be able to reconnect people.

[402] I love it.

[403] You know, I looked actually online the other day, and I saw, wow, like, I have a couple other relatively close cousins I need to connect with.

[404] I'm sure you've heard a lot of happy stories.

[405] I'm guessing you've heard weird stories, too, and it seems that there's like a new literary genre being born right now, which is the memoir where someone discovers that their relatives aren't who they thought they were, and you are part of the mechanism that made that possible.

[406] And like you said, for you, it's got great connotations and great actualities.

[407] But it's also, there are all these family secrets that are being kind of exploded by science.

[408] And I'm just curious, A, how you feel about that, and B, I'm also curious whether that was an unintended consequence of what you've done or whether you kind of anticipated that would be happening.

[409] So I recognize you have a range of stories.

[410] Often, you know, people are pretty excited about being united.

[411] And sometimes it's not easy on day one, but that it's a journey.

[412] And I think what's so interesting about the time period we're in right now is that all kinds of things that we're not disclosed are suddenly being, you know, unearthed.

[413] And so I think the most important thing we can do is make sure that our customers are aware of the potential.

[414] Is this, however, the end of, let's say, anonymous adoption, as we know it, an anonymous egg and sperm donation?

[415] I think that, you know, egg and sperm donors have to be aware that this is a technology that allows people to find each other.

[416] But a lot of people who've donated over the past, let's say, even 50 years, who are now being discovered.

[417] I mean, you can imagine what a jarring moment that may be.

[418] Yeah, and I empathize with those people.

[419] Like, I can imagine the shock for some of them.

[420] The world is changing pretty rapidly.

[421] And I'm happy that one of the unintended consequences of 23ME is connecting people.

[422] And, you know, my hope here is that people start to look as it kind of goes from the weird to the wonderful people.

[423] absorb and they can say, like, this is actually pretty common.

[424] I was just thinking how boring the world would have been if you had come along a few thousand years ago, because so many stories throughout history from the Bible and royal families, so many of them are about fertility secrets.

[425] Think of all the plays that couldn't have been written, so I'm glad you waited until the 21st century to do it.

[426] Well, now there'll be a new generation of fertility -related stories.

[427] There's something about your genetics, which is potentially more powerful.

[428] than looking in the mirror.

[429] There's a reveal that happens.

[430] Why do you think that is?

[431] It's so curious to me, because I've read, do you know the book by Danny Shapiro, Inheritance, it's called?

[432] I have.

[433] I haven't read it.

[434] She came from an Orthodox Jewish family, and she was always the blonde outlier.

[435] She was very, very, very, very proud of her family's Orthodox history and ancestry.

[436] And so for her, it was jarring because she had no idea that her father was not her biological father.

[437] Let me tell you what it's like to find out you were wrong, just plain wrong, about who you are and where you come from.

[438] And literally, she wrote almost something like you just said, like stronger than looking in the mirror.

[439] To look in the mirror one day and see a stranger staring back at you.

[440] That's what happened to me. A family secret was kept from me for my entire life.

[441] And in the middle of the night, I sometimes ask myself this question.

[442] Who am I?

[443] Who am I, now that I know the truth.

[444] I'm curious why you think that is, because I didn't frame it that way in my mind.

[445] I think that, you know, who raises you and the environment you're in, you know, that is so much more powerful or meaningful than the biological determination.

[446] And yet, it seems a lot of people, say what you're saying.

[447] And I'm just curious if you have any, I guess, philosophical -ish thoughts about why that pull is so strong and deep.

[448] Well, I think a couple things.

[449] There's something about your roots.

[450] You're connected to these people.

[451] There's a story.

[452] And for some people, that story is important.

[453] And for some people, it's just not.

[454] And I think that we are in a moment in society where a lot of people don't feel grounded.

[455] And there's something about looking at your DNA and finding a trace in the past and where it's been and those roots and the connections and understanding why are you the way you are today?

[456] Why do I have these preferences?

[457] Why do I look a certain way?

[458] Why does my pee smell like asparagus?

[459] It's everyone's top questions.

[460] Are you kidding?

[461] No, I'm kidding, yeah.

[462] I just say it's like people I think are looking for a question of like, why am I the way I am?

[463] And that's actually a beautiful question.

[464] There's spectacular human diversity on this planet.

[465] And we're all a little bit different.

[466] And you see mutations in certain areas have given rise to certain characteristics.

[467] And there's all kinds of reasons why those mutations have happened.

[468] Each mutation actually has a story.

[469] And those mutations connect you to other people into the past.

[470] One of the favorite things my children and their cousins love doing is looking at what DNA do they have in common with each other?

[471] And it's fun to look at like, okay, the eye genes.

[472] Like, who has them in common?

[473] Who got them from other grandparents?

[474] There's a different way of feeling like, oh, I'm connected to you.

[475] I have this bond.

[476] And I think that, like I said, people are looking for meaningful connections.

[477] Coming up next time on Freakonomics Radio.

[478] Have you ever noticed that every project from a dissertation to kitchen renovation to, a huge infrastructure project always takes way longer than planned and costs way more.

[479] There is a phrase for that.

[480] So the planning fallacy is a tendency to underestimate the time it will take to complete a project.

[481] The planning fallacy, optimism bias, blown deadlines, and how to beat them all.

[482] That's next time on Freakonomics Radio.

[483] Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dubner Productions.

[484] This episode was produced by Rebecca Lee Douglas.

[485] Our staff also includes Alison Craiglo, Matt Hickey, Harry Huggins, Zach Lipinski, Greg Rippin, and Corinne Wallace.

[486] We had help this week from Nellie Osborne.

[487] Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by The Hitchhikers.

[488] All the other music was composed by Luis Gera.

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