Katie Couric

[0] Welcome to the armchair expert.

[1] I'm your host, Dax Shepherd.

[2] Before I tell you about today's guest, I just want to share something that happened this morning while I was driving my daughter to a gymnastics class.

[3] I didn't even tell you about this yet, Monica.

[4] Okay.

[5] On Los Felas Boulevard, I passed a couple of guys in a range rover.

[6] And as I passed them, they honked the horn and threw the bird out the window and I could hear them screaming, fuck you.

[7] To you?

[8] To me. Yeah, yeah.

[9] We were the only two people going east.

[10] east on Los Felus Boulevard.

[11] And we got up to a light and they were next to us.

[12] And they had the windows done.

[13] So I rolled the window down.

[14] And I said, guys, what's, what's the problem?

[15] And this guy was all F bombs.

[16] You're driving too fast.

[17] What's the speed limit on Los Felis Boulevard?

[18] Screaming, his buddy was occasionally popping in with this or that he was upset about.

[19] But they kept talking about the speed limit.

[20] And then it occurred to me while they were, I kept going, guys, guys, guys, you're so hostile, hold on, just calm down, calm down.

[21] And I noticed as they were screaming at me about the speed limit, they were both sucking on gigantic dubies.

[22] There was so much pot smoke in the car.

[23] Oh, my.

[24] And I couldn't help but think, how funny it was that they had really prioritized the speed limit on those speedless Boulevard.

[25] But mind you, it was 8 .30 in the morning.

[26] Right.

[27] And they are chugging a couple of dubies with the wind.

[28] windows down.

[29] And at a certain point, it occurred to me, these guys might still be up from last night.

[30] Because why are they on the road at 8 .30 in the morning pounding dubage?

[31] Yeah, I don't like that.

[32] I bet they were up all night and then they were on their way to get a greasy breakfast.

[33] And they were smoking those dupies.

[34] But I will say, I had this whole exchange with them and I never got angry.

[35] I just kept going, guys, guys, hold on a second.

[36] You're very hostile.

[37] What is it I did?

[38] And, you know, I drove away and I have to say, I wasn't super excited.

[39] I even got involved in that with my daughter in the car.

[40] But yet, I was proud of the, what I want to say?

[41] The growth.

[42] Normally I would have been screaming and stuff, right?

[43] Yeah, you would have.

[44] And I would have done that in front of my child.

[45] And that wouldn't have been cool.

[46] But anyways, after I drove away and I thought, oh, you know what?

[47] I chose the de -escalation path.

[48] I think I'd learned that from our favorite documentary.

[49] wild, wild country, which is a real study of escalation versus de -escalation, right?

[50] Yeah.

[51] You guys should all watch that if you haven't seen it on Netflix yet.

[52] We're obsessed with it.

[53] It's almost all we talk about, the Bogwam and my new crush, Ma Anad, Sheila.

[54] It's so powerful.

[55] Speaking of super powerful, short ladies, our guest today is a real treat.

[56] We both hoped that this podcast would take off enough that we'd, we would not have to beg all of my friends to come to the attic.

[57] Sure.

[58] But that hopefully people would want to be on.

[59] And this was the first person who reached out to us.

[60] Yeah.

[61] Who wanted to be on?

[62] It was exciting.

[63] Guys, it's Katie Couric.

[64] What are the odds that Katie Couric reaches out, wants to be in your attic of your war zone construction project?

[65] Slim to none.

[66] Slim to none.

[67] How excited were we?

[68] Jumping up and down.

[69] Yeah, almost backflip level.

[70] Like truly.

[71] Yeah.

[72] I am very, very attracted to.

[73] short, smart ladies, right?

[74] My wife is a very short, very smart, powerful lady.

[75] My mom is a short, smart, powerful lady, and you are a short, small, powerful lady.

[76] It's fantastic.

[77] So without further ado, please enjoy one of the smartest, one of the most powerful, one of the funnest, Katie Couric.

[78] Stay tuned.

[79] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[80] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[81] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[82] I do.

[83] Yeah.

[84] Rob, you're ready?

[85] Katie Kirk, welcome to the armchair expert.

[86] Thank you.

[87] It's mind blowing you're sitting on the couch, I got to say.

[88] Thank you, Dr. Dax.

[89] When Monach and Rob and I started this, the goal was, oh, you know, hopefully it'll get known enough that just when I'm begging people to do it, it'll be less, you know, terrible on, yeah, on my end.

[90] And your publicist actually reached out to us.

[91] And I don't think you can imagine the celebration that happened in our kitchen when Monica goes, you're not going to believe who actually wants to be on armchair.

[92] Katie Couric.

[93] We were so excited.

[94] Well, you know, I'm a big fan.

[95] And I think it's so interesting in this day and age, how you get to people, you know, how you get to their eyes and ears.

[96] And I think it's really cool that you've embraced this new medium and that you're having fun with it.

[97] It's really easy to go like, oh, this business is changing.

[98] I liked how it was.

[99] And I'm just going to dig my heels in and be angry that it's not what it was.

[100] But that's a one way ticket out of the business, right?

[101] Definitely.

[102] I mean, listen, there are people who are doing a great job at what I did for years and years in terms of television news and primarily focusing on that.

[103] I think they're trying to expand in other arenas too, but that's their bread and butter.

[104] And that's still a really important genre, you know, television news.

[105] But I have always tried to predict or at least have my finger on the pulse of how things are changing when I was at CVS.

[106] doing the CBS Evening News, which is really one of the most old school networks there is.

[107] I said, when we were covering the Gulf oil spill, I said, hey, let's take some Twitter questions.

[108] Because when you're covering stories day in and day out, sometimes you lose sight of some very basic questions.

[109] Yeah, sure.

[110] And I thought viewers would have interesting questions that maybe we miss. You get very deep inside the forest, right?

[111] And I remember one of the, I guess the vice president of the news division, said to a colleague of mine, I think it's really beneath the anchor of the CBS Evening News to be on the Twitter.

[112] Right.

[113] And I was like, clearly this is not a sort of looking ahead at the future organization.

[114] And I remember getting a question, Dax, and it was, how much oil is down there?

[115] And I was like, you see, that's a really interesting question.

[116] Was it 10 gallons?

[117] Was that there?

[118] No, but it was a lot of oil.

[119] I don't even remember how much it was or if it was in.

[120] infinite amount.

[121] Millions of gallons.

[122] But, you know, so I have always tried to keep an eye on what's happening in the landscape and embrace it rather than shy away from it.

[123] Yeah.

[124] And you've worked through a couple of big paradigm shifts.

[125] One of them being, when you started, there were, what, three options for news generally, or maybe two on your local.

[126] And then the 24 -hour news cycle started and CNN was born in MSNBC and all these things.

[127] and what was your initial reaction to that?

[128] I actually started at ABC News as a desk assistant right out of college.

[129] But then CNN was just starting.

[130] So I worked at CNN before it even started.

[131] Oh, really?

[132] Did you have encounters with Ted Turner?

[133] I, you know, I saw him from afar.

[134] I didn't really know him.

[135] I remember the first meeting he had with all these bright -eyed CNN people who were very excited about this new way of delivering the news.

[136] And I remember he got up in front of all the employees and said, ah, we're going to beam the shit all over the place.

[137] And everyone was like, really?

[138] That's our fearless leader.

[139] But so, you know, of course, he's kind of a larger than life figure.

[140] So I was kind of right there as that changed and have kind of tried to iterate, as they say, But I'm right to guess, though, that at the peak of the three nights, network options when you had like a Ted Cople or Tom Brokaw or one of these guys were getting tons of money, right?

[141] Because their viewership was in the tens of millions, right?

[142] And so when it became kind of diluted by all these other positions, did that bring the overall salary down for everyone?

[143] No. Not in the early days.

[144] I think, for example, when I was able to be a co -anchor on the Today Show.

[145] That show is such a cash cow.

[146] Morning shows bring in a ton of money to network news divisions.

[147] So as a result, you had a lot of leverage when it came to your salary.

[148] If you were considered an important part of that program.

[149] Yeah.

[150] So for the duration of my time at the Today Show, you know, I was very well compensated.

[151] Right.

[152] And just so people understand the reason those are so profitable, not just the viewership, but the cost of making them is very inexpensive, right?

[153] because you're on one set, you have your cameras already set, and you can bang out real -time content, right?

[154] Right.

[155] And the ad revenues are high.

[156] They're reaching.

[157] You know, I don't know.

[158] People watch it live as well.

[159] Yeah, I don't know as much as they used to, but the key demographics are younger, probably women who are making a lot of the purchasing decisions.

[160] You know, I've never really kind of explored totally the ad revenue models on those shows.

[161] But, you know, they got good.

[162] ratings.

[163] They're consistent.

[164] I think they were brand friendly, right?

[165] All those things.

[166] Yeah.

[167] Yeah.

[168] Monica and I were just at a live podcast at Dolby Center and we learned actually now I'm confusing.

[169] Sam Harris.

[170] I should say it.

[171] Yeah.

[172] We're sorry, we're obsessed with Sam Harris.

[173] We talk about them every single podcast.

[174] Stephen Pinker on as a guest and then they did a live thing at Dolby, which was really fascinating.

[175] But 80 % of the consumer market is driven by women.

[176] Women are making 80 % of the decisions, right?

[177] I think it's even sometimes I've heard as high as 85%.

[178] Really?

[179] Viewership is skewing female as well, right?

[180] Yes, mostly women.

[181] I have to imagine an ideal spot to advertise if you're trying to sell something to the ladies, yeah?

[182] Yeah, exactly.

[183] So you grew up in Virginia?

[184] I did.

[185] Is that an idyllic childhood?

[186] Was it rural?

[187] Was it?

[188] It wasn't rural.

[189] It's extremely suburban.

[190] I grew up in Arlington and Northern Virginia, which is really a suburb.

[191] of Washington, D .C., so most of the people in my neighborhood, they worked for the federal government.

[192] My dad did not, but he was in journalism early in his career.

[193] He grew up in Dublin, Georgia.

[194] He went to Mercer in Macon, Georgia, wrote for the Macon Telegraph when he graduated from high school, I mean from college, rather, and then went and worked for the Atlanta Constitution, United Press, and we moved to Washington, and he transferred into public relations, which I always thought was a shame, honestly, because my dad was so, so smart and such a Renaissance man could talk fluently about just about anything.

[195] Yeah.

[196] And I just don't think he was a big kind, I just don't think PR was a great fit for him.

[197] I mean, he did it.

[198] Right.

[199] But I wish he had stuff with journalism.

[200] Was he drawn into it for financial reasons?

[201] Yeah.

[202] I think it was really hard to raise a family of four kids on a newspaper man's salary.

[203] Yeah.

[204] And so that's why he went into that field.

[205] but.

[206] And were you a daddy's girl?

[207] You know, I love both my parents so much.

[208] You know, I think I was inspired by my dad and he really encouraged me to pursue journalism because I was always a pretty good writer.

[209] I remember the head of the NAB was a man named Vincent Wazelouski.

[210] And my mom, my mom picked my dad and Mr. Wazelouski up at the airport and I was in the back of our station wagon.

[211] And I kept asking him if he wanted to hear a joke because I was sort of a little joker like you were when you were little.

[212] And it was when Polish jokes were all the rage.

[213] Oh, sure.

[214] Sure.

[215] And so my mom.

[216] In fact, if you do the setup, I bet I can do the punch.

[217] Yeah.

[218] Oh, you know, my mom, knowing that Vincent Wazelouski probably would not find Polish jokes super amusing was about to blow a gasket.

[219] And she was driving.

[220] She said, no, not Katie.

[221] And I was, and Mr. Rosaluski was like, come on, tell the joke, tell the joke.

[222] And of course, I got immediately the vibe from my mom that I should not go there, but it was a, it was a, you didn't get it out.

[223] No. Were you going to ask him how to get a one -armed Polish man out of a tree?

[224] No, how?

[225] Wave.

[226] I don't get it.

[227] Well, because one -arm police, he would wave.

[228] One -arm.

[229] Yes, yes.

[230] And I'm not using, I'm not going to use the pejorative term.

[231] Those were all the rage for a little while, which is interesting because today it would be considered obviously culturally and inappropriate.

[232] It's culturally insensitive and highly inappropriate.

[233] Well, we talk about this non -stop.

[234] We're kind of obsessed with this issue because.

[235] Oh, I would love to hear you talk about this because I'm going a whole hour for National Geographic on this.

[236] Oh, it's about this.

[237] Well, I'm doing six hours.

[238] And one of the episodes is about sort of this heightened cultural sensitivity, what's happening not only on college campuses, but in literally.

[239] literature in books, Dr. Seuss.

[240] Well, just all of academia, too, has been.

[241] Fashion.

[242] It's been really interesting.

[243] Yeah.

[244] And so let me just, because I always make the mistake of saying after the fact, I'll make this argument.

[245] And then I go, oh, it should go without saying, I think women and men should make the same amount.

[246] But I've just said a bunch of others up.

[247] So I'm just going to start by saying, A, I'm probably getting to the age where I should shut up.

[248] You know, I think inevitably, as culture changes, you're going to get left behind on some topics.

[249] And I can accept that.

[250] And I can recognize that there are going to be things I just don't agree with as I get older and older.

[251] So this could be one of them.

[252] I could be wrong.

[253] But I do think we can definitely make Polish jokes because, as Monica would say, I'm white, so I'm entitled to make some Polish jokes, right?

[254] I'm probably not in Polish.

[255] I can tell you I am.

[256] Yeah.

[257] How would you possibly know how is Polish or not?

[258] I think it's within our realm as comedians to be making all the white people jokes we want to make.

[259] if we're white men, right?

[260] Probably not white female jokes.

[261] We should probably stay away from those.

[262] And then we can leave it to the comedians that are, say, who's your favorite, the Indian comedian you love?

[263] Oh, Hassan Minaj.

[264] Yeah, so he, so we, this is something we debated about, is Hassan Minaj points out that there is an official immigrant car, which is the Toyota Camry, which is a brilliant observation.

[265] So funny.

[266] And I said, you know, Monica, I could point that same thing.

[267] thing out, it's still a great observation.

[268] And I lament that that I don't have that option.

[269] But that's probably just my entitlement and my, you know, wanting to be a part of every single thing.

[270] And I'm not allowed to be a part of every single thing.

[271] It's all, it's all very interesting because it's changing.

[272] And I think people have very sort of hardened opinions about this.

[273] And one of the things I wanted to explore in this hour is, is this dividing us?

[274] Is it keeping us from, from being able to explore things that aren't, quote, unquote, in our lane and part of our cultural purview, or is this, you know, and it's much more nuanced.

[275] I think one of the problems in our culture today is people have these very specific opinions about things, and they don't hear other points of view.

[276] They don't kind of understand that it's much more nuanced.

[277] I think media -wise, it's so much easier to kind of say it's black or white, it's this or that.

[278] So, yes, and we talk about this a lot.

[279] My opinion on that is like we have slowly, weirdly embraced technology to the point where we work in binary opposition now.

[280] So we are black or white.

[281] We are a one or a zero.

[282] Well, you're getting affirmation, not information.

[283] Yes.

[284] And so this is great because this is a thing that Monica and I were just talking about a couple days ago, which is I reject the claim that I can't understand your experience.

[285] And specifically, I mean, I reject that I can't relate to a human feeling.

[286] you have.

[287] Now, I can't, I don't have the black experience.

[288] I never will.

[289] I, I don't claim to have that.

[290] But the example I gave was this.

[291] If you're a Muslim kid growing up in the Midwest and you've got to leave your classroom twice a day to go pray, that must feel very excluding.

[292] You must feel very other than, and it's us and them.

[293] And so I can't relate to being a Muslim kid leaving to pray twice a day.

[294] But I can relate to being learning disabled and going to the special ed room twice a day, which was humiliating beyond belief and excluding, and I felt less than.

[295] So, yes, I'm not claiming I know the experience, but I am saying as a human, I understand the feeling and the feeling of exclusion in feeling less than I can relate to.

[296] So just because I'm white doesn't mean I can't relate to that.

[297] That to me is the distinction.

[298] I agree.

[299] And I think, you know, we all want to have empathy for other people's situation.

[300] And if you can't talk about it, If you can't ask questions, if you can't have an opinion or try to contribute to the conversation, it's incredibly separating and divisive.

[301] And, you know, I have a friend who someone said to her, you can't really talk about this because you're not black.

[302] Right.

[303] I think that's a dangerous delineation for people.

[304] I understand, yes, that's true.

[305] And there are certain things about particular experiences that are unique.

[306] to individuals.

[307] On the other hand, if we silo each other off so much, how can we come together and form some kind of mutual understanding?

[308] That's my point, is that if you want a greater mass of people to join your movement, people don't join movements to be spectators.

[309] They join movements to be participants.

[310] So if the opening statement is, you'll never understand my story, you should never speak in my story, join my movement.

[311] I don't think you're getting a lot of people joining the movement because who wants to come just be in the audience of a movement?

[312] You, want to have an opinion.

[313] You want to be a, you want people to be invested in what you're doing and what you care about.

[314] And I think people want to.

[315] We're just living in these very polarizing times and it's complicated.

[316] And I've learned a lot about just in the course of this series about all these hot button issues and about sort of what cultural appropriation means.

[317] I was talking to Elaine Walter Roth, who was the editor of Teen Vogue and she left to pursue some other opportunities.

[318] And, you know, she talked about minstrel shows being sort of one of the first cultural appropriation, inappropriate use of someone else.

[319] And people would do those in blackface, right?

[320] And they're so deeply offensive.

[321] And I hadn't really thought of it as a case of cultural appropriation.

[322] And I think if you're, you know, it is hard.

[323] I think you have to acknowledge that it is, in fact, difficult to understand the experiences of a marginalized community, if you're not part of that community.

[324] Because it is such an accumulation of slights and attitudes that I think really do shape how you see yourself and how you interface with the world.

[325] On the other hand, I think we have to have some kind of open dialogue while acknowledging that to figure out how we're going to move forward.

[326] Yeah.

[327] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[328] If you dare.

[329] We've all been there.

[330] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[331] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[332] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[333] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[334] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[335] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[336] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[337] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[338] What's up, guys?

[339] This is your girl Kiki and my podcast.

[340] is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[341] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[342] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[343] And I don't mean just friends.

[344] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[345] The list goes on.

[346] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[347] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[348] I had to recognize, oh, this is why I can't relate.

[349] So there was a famous case that was.

[350] was in the media recently where an agent grabbed a black actress penis at a party.

[351] And then obviously that actor was very, very upset.

[352] And I happened to know both people involved.

[353] And my take was, hmm, if I was at a party, uh, at a friend's house and someone grabbed my dick in front of my wife, uh, I wouldn't care.

[354] That just me personally, I could give a shit.

[355] I would go, hmm, that was a weird joke.

[356] Uh, right?

[357] So I, and I, I can't relate to, feeling like, say, sexually assaulted by that.

[358] But then I thought, well, in life, in general, I'm a six foot two white guy.

[359] So I don't feel powerless very often.

[360] I don't walk into rooms and feel powerless all the time.

[361] So it takes a lot to make me feel powerless.

[362] But if I was regularly marginalized, I would feel powerless quite often.

[363] And it wouldn't probably take much to make me feel angry and powerless.

[364] So that's an example where like, yeah, my own blinders could make me not understand what that person went through.

[365] Plus, it's probably hard for you to really understand the nature of their relationship, right?

[366] Yeah, sure.

[367] You have a relationship with one and with both individuals, but in terms of how they interact, you don't really know.

[368] Yeah.

[369] So who knows the baggage that might be part and parcel of that relationship, right?

[370] Yes.

[371] And also, and now I'm going to jump into another hot lava topic, but another thing that needs to be considered all the time is if the three of us in this room right now, four, sorry, Rob, the four of us are asked tomorrow what happened in this room.

[372] All four of us will have a completely different version of what happened in this room.

[373] That's just human nature.

[374] We're not experiencing things the same way as one another.

[375] It's like I witness accounts, right?

[376] That's why they're so unreliable.

[377] They're almost useless.

[378] Right.

[379] And that has now been, you know, thoroughly proven.

[380] And so what is scary and what is dangerous is that quite often both people are telling the truth.

[381] And we don't really have an answer for that.

[382] So often both people are telling the truth.

[383] They're true.

[384] Exactly.

[385] Yes.

[386] Now there is a third truth.

[387] If there were a camera in the room, we would have, you know, an objective truth to it.

[388] But I, you know, I have a friend who is a nanny who feels a little less than because of that title and has gone into a store.

[389] been told that they can't they won't sell it to her because she's a nanny that's for mothers are you a mother or are you a nanny this whole experience which i found to be not possible but i do believe that she had that experience i don't deny that she had that experience does that make any sense yeah we hear things that confirm hunches we already have so what happened to her exactly she went into a store with baby goods and she wanted help with something and then according to her the owner said, are you a nanny or a mother, which I can't, I just can't comprehend that that would ever happen.

[390] I don't know why the owner would say that.

[391] But if you're waiting for people to be pointing out that you're a nanny, then you hear certain things.

[392] I'm not, help me, Monica, make that.

[393] Yeah, that makes sense.

[394] But I think it easily could have happened.

[395] I could totally see a scenario where I was buying something and they were like, oh, do you, are you a mom?

[396] Well, yeah, in a cheerful way.

[397] Well, yeah.

[398] She probably did say, are you a nanny or are you a mom?

[399] They probably get multiple types of people coming in.

[400] Well, why would they say that, though?

[401] I don't know, but I wouldn't even think twice about that.

[402] Like, I would never think about that after the fact that they were wondering if I was a lowly nanny or a mother.

[403] But if you're insecure about that, you're going to hear it.

[404] That's my greater point.

[405] Yes.

[406] And I have, when I have insecure, my insecurities are people think I'm dumb, you know, the list goes on.

[407] And then everything someone's saying, to me, I'm thinking.

[408] You're hearing it through that filter.

[409] Yes.

[410] And so I will repeat the story.

[411] But it's just that that was my version of what happened.

[412] But I do want to say one thing before we go on.

[413] It's a little dangerous, I think, to say that everyone's truths are truths.

[414] No, no. Listen, many men are lying.

[415] The vast majority of men are lying in those situations.

[416] Yeah, but I don't even need.

[417] But what I'm saying is sometimes both people are telling the truth.

[418] I think often, Everyone is telling their version of what happened.

[419] But I think it's dangerous to say everyone's telling the truth because that gets into fake news situations.

[420] That gets into a lot of things.

[421] Or people say, well, I was there and I saw this.

[422] To me, it was this.

[423] Right.

[424] To me, the, you know, inauguration was full of people.

[425] Well, and I'm sure you've had this in your own experience, which is you're much like my wife.

[426] You were very powerful.

[427] You're very accomplished.

[428] I'm assuming you have pretty good self -esteem.

[429] So you've probably had interactions with men who have later been exposed as being predatorial that weren't predatorial with you because you're not a good target.

[430] Yes.

[431] Right?

[432] Does that happen?

[433] Mm -hmm.

[434] Yeah.

[435] And so it puts you in a weird position after the fact of going like, yes, I recognize that, yet I didn't experience that.

[436] Yeah.

[437] And I just, to go back to what Monica said, I think what we're saying is sometimes when people are talking about their feelings, and this is, of course, the controversial area as well, Because some people feel that this emphasis on feelings is too much, but that it's their perception of how they felt or what, you know, how something transpired.

[438] And when we talk about their own truths, I think their own accounts of how they felt about something that happened.

[439] Yes.

[440] Yeah.

[441] In a personal situation.

[442] That's what I was sort of talking about.

[443] Yeah.

[444] But anyway, getting back to that.

[445] So, and then, because I just want to come back to one thing you were talking about.

[446] by the documentary you're about to make.

[447] I think, too, what's dangerous now about the sensitivity is that the way academia has always worked and the reason we've gotten such great breakthroughs scientifically and whatnot is that someone writes a paper, a good percentage of it is flawed.

[448] And we have peer review and they go, you know, you might want to check this data set.

[449] I think this doesn't really add up with what we've gotten, right?

[450] And through this process of peer review, we come to find the truth.

[451] But it requires that somebody has the latitude to say something.

[452] something wrong, right?

[453] Or that the bulk of what they're saying is right, but then 10 % of it is wrong, and then that comes under scrutiny, and then it gets corrected.

[454] And that's, that is a great process for finding the truth.

[455] And I think now that people's careers can end, if they say the wrong sentence, they can be ostracized.

[456] That's, that's dangerous.

[457] Demonized on social media.

[458] Yes.

[459] I think we, we have to have, we have to be able to go, okay, someone's going to say a lot of things.

[460] Some of them are going to be insensitive, wrong.

[461] And they should have the ability to correct.

[462] Or ignorant, right?

[463] Yeah.

[464] But it's okay to be ignorant.

[465] I think you're right.

[466] I think that's when it does get dangerous.

[467] When people can't with with genuineness and a true curiosity and with no intention to offend, cannot ask questions or talk about an area that, you know, the very, the very question brings them ridicule or, you know, they're portrayed as something they're not.

[468] I think, you know, that's a whole big sticky wicket about all this, about does it stifle free speech?

[469] Is it, I interviewed Adam Carolla for this hour, you know, who has testified on Capitol Hill.

[470] It's actually doing a documentary testified on Capitol Hill.

[471] And what's his position?

[472] He thinks that college kids are basically they need to have the fortitude to hear things that they don't like and that's part of that are offensive.

[473] But, you know, the other side is, you know, maybe there's nothing wrong with people being more thoughtful about how they approach certain topics.

[474] I guess it's a really, it's a fine line, isn't it, like everything?

[475] It's kind of a little of both sides are right.

[476] Yes.

[477] When it becomes so intense that people feel like they can't have a conversation, that can't be good.

[478] Yeah, you've got to float some bad ideas to discover their bad, I guess is what I'm saying.

[479] Yeah, that's how you learn.

[480] But this whole issue of microaggressions and, you know, making comments.

[481] I interviewed Morty Shapiro, who's the president of Northwestern about this.

[482] And he told a story about being, or the Trojans, the USC Trojans, right?

[483] Yes.

[484] He was at a football game.

[485] when there was a band playing.

[486] And this is when, you know, a number of years ago, I think the president administrator's wife turned to him and said, oh, you must really love this band.

[487] And he said, yeah, I like the, I like this marching band.

[488] And he said, because this woman said, because your people really like music.

[489] What?

[490] And he is Jewish.

[491] And he didn't realize at the time that he was the only Jewish person in this group of people.

[492] Okay.

[493] And.

[494] I don't even know the stereo.

[495] type that Jews love music, but that's new to me. I know.

[496] I know.

[497] You know, he gave an example of that, like just a boneheaded, prejudiced, weird thing to say and made him feel really uncomfortable.

[498] That's an example of something that he remembers to this day, even though it happened many years ago.

[499] So I think kind of asking people to appreciate their preconceived notions and their own implicit biases and prejudices is something that's appropriate, especially.

[500] especially as these colleges and universities try to be more inclusive and try to make people feel welcome.

[501] You know, so I'm trying to present all these different sides so people can kind of hear people talk about it.

[502] And back to the first point you made, which is we're so inclined to black and white options.

[503] This like so many things, it'll fall in the middle.

[504] So it's not that, no, you should be able to go dressed in blackface for Halloween on a college campus.

[505] It's not either that option or you saying that, I don't even know, some innocuous observation makes you a racist and blah, blah, blah.

[506] Those aren't the two, only two options, right?

[507] I think there's, like everything, there's a little pendulum.

[508] It swings a little too far this way and a little too far that way.

[509] I also recognize that I'm probably buying into the hysteria about the college campuses.

[510] So there's been these Evergreens, a popular case of when this happened.

[511] Read, college is another.

[512] Yes.

[513] There's been a handful of them.

[514] And, of course, I witnessed them because they, they're on YouTube.

[515] And so I start thinking that all college campuses are this way.

[516] And it might be a very rare thing that happens that I'm probably overreacting to.

[517] Well, I think people, again, getting back to gathering your own set of facts, right?

[518] People cherry pick things that support their point of view.

[519] Yeah.

[520] And sometimes I do think it's just a lot more complicated than if people listen and kind of understand and hear other points of view and why, you know, safe spaces might, it might be important to be comfortable before you engage in uncomfortable learning if you, in fact, feel uncomfortable.

[521] You know, maybe that is actually a good thing.

[522] Yeah, or be up front, go like, hey, this is going to get dicey for the next hour and a half.

[523] We're going to talk about some stuff that's going to be offensive.

[524] Yeah.

[525] I think maybe if you have the appropriate expectation, you're not caught off guard so much.

[526] Right.

[527] And I think, you know, I was talking to Morty Shapiro about that.

[528] And it's almost like warnings before a movie.

[529] You know, he said he went to a film about the Holocaust.

[530] It was interesting for him to give examples about himself personally.

[531] It helped me understand it more.

[532] Yeah.

[533] And he said, you know, some of my family died in the Holocaust.

[534] And it would have been nice if I had just known.

[535] Because, you know, everybody sort of mocks this whole notion of retramatizing people.

[536] But it does happen.

[537] And why not just kind of, it's really just kind of a courteous heads up.

[538] Yeah.

[539] Yeah, right?

[540] Yeah.

[541] Yeah.

[542] So you've done a bunch of amazing interviews.

[543] I watched a few of them last night for fun.

[544] First and foremost, the fact that you were on 60 Minutes, that's my all -time favorite show.

[545] So that's exciting.

[546] Two of them jump out at me. One of them is you famously asked Sarah Palin the question, what magazines or newspapers are you reading to start your day, right, to stay informed?

[547] do you remember this monica yeah very famous question one of the top 10 most famous questions probably and then her response obviously was like oh i read all them and then you said well specifically which ones do you read and then it was pretty much exposed that she's not reading any of those when i watched the video that's now 10 years ago or 11 years ago right yeah yeah and i no longer have the ire towards her that i used to have because it was a threat to me at that time.

[548] I was so in support of Obama and I was so terrified of her and McCain being, you know, president and vice president, that you know, I disliked her at that time.

[549] And now I don't.

[550] I don't dislike her.

[551] Now it's 11 years later.

[552] And what's weird is I'm watching that video and I loved when it happened when it happened.

[553] But now I'm watching it 11 years later and I'm like, God, I just kind of feel bad for this person.

[554] I think she just ended up in way over her head and was just underprepared and probably Any one of us, you know, plucked out of somewhere, would have had that same experience.

[555] Do you, when you have to break stories, which is your job, and we need you, and we've relied on you to expose things.

[556] And that was a very relevant thing to know about a candidate.

[557] In those moments, when you were in that moment, I don't know if you can remember exactly walking with her.

[558] Oh, yeah.

[559] I remember everything about that.

[560] And you start recognizing, oh, I know where this is going.

[561] What part of your human body is going, oh, this is a little bit sad.

[562] and what part of your intellectual brain is saying this has to be exposed.

[563] What's walking that tightrope?

[564] How does that feel in that situation?

[565] I think you've, well, I think you've actually described her the way I feel about her.

[566] But let me backtrack for a moment.

[567] I think you can hold those two feelings simultaneously.

[568] I think as a person, I, you know, I did two interviews, long interviews with her, the first at the United Nations and later in Ohio.

[569] And that was when we were just getting a B -roll shot.

[570] And I was curious because I'm fascinated by how someone becomes so extreme in their beliefs.

[571] And I think she was quite extreme in her beliefs.

[572] And I really, the question I was curious about is, what did you read?

[573] Like, what shaped your worldview?

[574] And what do you read to stay informed in?

[575] Because I feel, I think I felt even back then certain materials, certain people, certain, you know, yeah, resources affirm or how.

[576] help shape you.

[577] And I think early on, and you, you know, I didn't know whether she was going to say William F. Buckley or, you know, there's certain people who I really believe strongly in their point of view.

[578] Or I didn't know she'd say the Bible.

[579] You know, a lot of my view, views come from that.

[580] And, you know, so that was kind of a just a B -roll question.

[581] It wasn't a throwaway, but that was just a walk and talk.

[582] So you didn't think that was going to, you, you know, it was really, and in your head had you prepared like, oh, she might say, no, no, no, that, no, that, no, that, no, that was I just didn't know how honestly, intellectually robust she was.

[583] But I had spent a lot of time with her after her meeting with world leaders at the UN and New York.

[584] And we did many more questions that I think were much more relevant to her accomplishments, her competence, her, you know, how she viewed the country and some of the big issues she would inevitably face.

[585] And it just was clear, honestly, from the get -go, that she just wasn't ready to be thrust in this role.

[586] Yeah.

[587] And of course, of course, you'd have ice water running through your veins if you didn't feel sorry for her because one of the pieces of advice I got is, you know, let her talk.

[588] And one of the things about interviewing people, if you're in a situation like that, not so much like this, is you jump in because nobody likes dead air.

[589] Yeah.

[590] But sometimes you just have to...

[591] Katie, I'm learning this.

[592] You have to stop.

[593] You just have to not say anything.

[594] And the less I said, the more she kind of was wrestling with trying to sound like she actually understood some of these issues.

[595] When frankly, I think there were just some things that she didn't really have a lot of understanding of.

[596] When you weren't interviewing, did you get a sense, again, none of this is, I'm not trying to steer it politically because there's plenty of.

[597] political stuff you could listen to.

[598] When the cameras aren't rolling, do you just genuinely like her?

[599] Like was she a personable?

[600] Yes, she was very personable.

[601] She was personable.

[602] She seemed very nice and down to earth, unpretentious.

[603] And, you know, but my job wasn't to be her friend or to go out to lunch with her.

[604] It's actually, you know, she at the time, John McCain had a lot of some health issues.

[605] Right.

[606] It had melanoma.

[607] It was conceivable that she would be called upon.

[608] Exactly.

[609] And I thought it was exceedingly important to be able to ensure the American people that she could take over.

[610] She would have been a heartbeat away from the presidency.

[611] And I was there to make sure she could lead this country.

[612] Well, of course, now you look at the situation and you wonder, well, probably, I guess, given today's standard, she could have.

[613] But, you know, it was important back then that she had a real ability to be a critical thinker, had accumulated knowledge and could understand important issues in a way that would give people confidence if she, in fact, were called upon to be president of the United States.

[614] Yeah, but there's a, you are a primate, I'm a primate.

[615] We have all this human wiring, right?

[616] So I have to imagine you are fighting some instincts in your job.

[617] This is the part of journalism.

[618] I don't know if people really ponder a lot, but I compare it selfishly to I was on this show punked and I had to pull pranks on people.

[619] And there were times where I was like, this is, this is evil, maybe.

[620] This is a little bit dicey, you know, but this is going to be great TV.

[621] And like, I'm aware of that.

[622] Like, I'm still looking at a human being in the eyes in the same shared space.

[623] And there's, there's two parts of my brain going, you know, this primitive side is like, no, I want to, I want to be locked step with a human being.

[624] I want to connect with them.

[625] And yet you might have a job to do that is, that goes very much against all those instincts.

[626] Is that something you can practice?

[627] I think that this was such an important interview and any personal feelings I had had to be put aside for the good of educating the electorate.

[628] That doesn't mean that I didn't feel bad for her.

[629] Like my heart broke a little bit as she was struggling.

[630] Someone wrote that it was like a seventh grader trying to fake their way through an oral exam.

[631] But that was an insult to seventh graders and oral exams.

[632] You know, I mean, so, but, but, and you did feel like, you know, listen, it would be hard to answer a lot of the questions I asked.

[633] Oh, but I'm guilty of that.

[634] By the way, I'm, I'm watching a thing going like, oh, my goodness, she doesn't read a single newspaper.

[635] Mind you, I don't read a single newspaper.

[636] So there's definitely.

[637] But you're not running.

[638] No, yeah, yeah.

[639] Like, she needed an answer for that.

[640] Sure, absolutely.

[641] But I do think sometimes we are holding people these standards that we ourselves are not meeting.

[642] Well, I just want the president, you know, to.

[643] to be smarter than the person at the checkout counter.

[644] Yes, absolutely.

[645] But there is an element to your job, right?

[646] It's not unlike a defense attorney, a criminal defense attorney, which I'm in support of.

[647] They have to represent murderers that they know murdered people.

[648] And that's how our system functions.

[649] They have to give them the best defense humanly possible because that we have to protect this system.

[650] And I'm in favor of that.

[651] But I would imagine in journalism, you have this huge, you're the fourth estate as that what we call you guys, right?

[652] Yeah, I guess.

[653] Yeah.

[654] You're you're the fourth wing of our democracy, which is you're going to help expose things that we need to know about that could be hidden.

[655] That's a huge responsibility.

[656] It's an enormous responsibility.

[657] What's interesting now is, we don't want to get too political, but you watch what everything that's going on and getting back, Monica, to your notion of Daniel Patrick Moynihan said everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own set of facts.

[658] But now it seems that people do feel entitled to their own set of facts.

[659] Yeah.

[660] And no matter.

[661] And I really give kudos to all my colleagues in journalism right now.

[662] They're doing an incredible job.

[663] The question is, in the current environment, there's so much happening.

[664] It's almost hard to keep up with it.

[665] Yeah.

[666] And it becomes white noise a little bit to me. white noise, which is really upsetting.

[667] You know, any one of these incidents would have really shattered other presidencies.

[668] And this one, it's just, I think, you know, it's almost like we're all frogs in water that is slowly boiling.

[669] And it starts to, we don't realize what's happening.

[670] And I don't know.

[671] It's just a very strange time.

[672] I'm optimistic.

[673] I think a lot of these things in the long historical view will turn out to be great.

[674] Again, whether you love Trump or you don't love Trump, what could very likely happen is this could result in our first female president.

[675] This could be the push.

[676] I very much think that the hatred towards George Bush from the left opened up the door for our first black president, which is amazing.

[677] So historically, if you look at what he served, you know, ultimately a long -term view, it helped.

[678] If George W. Bush had left office testing in the 80s, I don't think we would have Obama, sadly.

[679] Yeah.

[680] So you don't really know how this will all shake out in the end, right?

[681] No, you don't.

[682] You don't.

[683] But in real time, it's excruciating.

[684] And I also, yeah, I think one of the silver linings, it is really galvanized and motivated so many different groups who feel that they do not like the direction the country is going in.

[685] They do not want a president who speaks this way, who conducts himself this way, and who threatens various groups.

[686] who doesn't seem to stand behind all Americans.

[687] And so they are becoming galvanized.

[688] Similarly, though, I think sometimes because of his behavior and his tweeting or whatever he's doing, it is a distraction from talking about big policy issues.

[689] Oh, sure.

[690] And maybe some of the things that he's doing actually are worthwhile.

[691] You know, maybe there needed to be less regulation.

[692] Maybe there needed to be, you know, some of these things happening.

[693] but everything he does obscures sort of these deeper issues.

[694] And I don't think it's by design.

[695] But I think inevitably that that's what happens.

[696] And there's so much kind of these gnats flying around and the, you know, the Mueller investigation aren't gnats.

[697] But these other things may be like, oh, look what he tweeted about Chuck Todd.

[698] You know, that becomes like a big news story.

[699] And it's such a distraction from so many other important issues.

[700] So let's also take potentially a little.

[701] inventory of where media may have gone wrong.

[702] And this would just be from my having no knowledge of it.

[703] To me, when I grew up, the anchors that we trusted, right, they were very neutral by my assessment.

[704] Except on Vietnam.

[705] Remember, Walter Cronkite spoke out against Vietnam, said we're losing and LBJ said if we've lost Cronkite, we've lost the war.

[706] But yes, you're right.

[707] In general, right.

[708] It stayed so neutral that when Cronkite did say that about Vietnam, people went, well, holy shit, this is really something because he wouldn't do this.

[709] It carried a lot of weight.

[710] And to me, unless I'm watching my local news, I'm either watching CNN or MSNBC or Fox News or whatever.

[711] And now it is very, it's very biased.

[712] Even in your era, right, you could be, you can have this conversation that we're having and then still be an anchor tomorrow.

[713] somewhere, right?

[714] The requirement isn't neutrality so much anymore.

[715] And is that an issue?

[716] Is that why now you have two camps.

[717] You don't know who to trust.

[718] They're saying you can't trust CNN.

[719] We're saying you can't trust Fox News.

[720] Is that a product of people being more outwardly political?

[721] I mean, I think you're right.

[722] It's so bifurcated.

[723] I think sort of the feeling among journalists who might have been ostensibly more objective is that some of this behavior is so beyond the pale.

[724] It is really hard to be on one hand and on the other hand.

[725] Even when George W. Bush, though, was president or Obama, that was already happening.

[726] Yeah, but I think CNN was probably much more neutral when George W. Bush was president and when Barack Obama was president.

[727] And I think, you know, I think it has become intensely partisan.

[728] You're right.

[729] I mean, you can watch Fox News and have, feel like you live in a different country than when you watch MSNBC.

[730] Oh, for fun when I'm at a hotel room.

[731] I do too.

[732] I go back and forth to watch them cover the same story.

[733] I do too.

[734] They bear no resemblance.

[735] It's in the middle that someone could go like, well, let me check in with the middle to see what maybe the, you know, the blurring of all these facts might be.

[736] Well, I think probably the evening newscasts are the most down the line.

[737] Right.

[738] But I think certainly on cable, it has become.

[739] just bitterly partisan.

[740] And I think there is a meanness.

[741] And I don't know whether that's because we have a president who's kind of routinely mean.

[742] But there does seem to be kind of a nastiness that has imbued all the coverage, I think, and infused all the coverage.

[743] And, you know, I was watching Laura Ingram on Fox when I was traveling and she was doing the whole LeBron James take down.

[744] And I was just like, God, that.

[745] That is so nasty.

[746] I don't even, I missed the little bit.

[747] That was when she said, dribble and shut up.

[748] Oh, great.

[749] Shut up and dribble.

[750] Oh, wonderful.

[751] And it was just, it was so, you know, I guess she didn't like something that he had said and he is anti -Trump.

[752] And then she thought he shouldn't do that.

[753] And the whole thing felt so just vitriolic.

[754] Yeah.

[755] And awful.

[756] It's, it's very hard to, I don't know.

[757] it's hard to have that in your head all the time.

[758] And that's why I think probably, you know, the ratings are really high on Fox and CNN and MSNBC.

[759] Oh, it's all been great for television for late night.

[760] But it, but I, yeah, but at the same time, it does feel like, can't we all, like want to say a Rodney King?

[761] Like, can't we all get along?

[762] But it does make it hard to find common ground.

[763] And I think one of the reasons, and there's been some recent science to support, which is if you look at people's brains during an MRI or whatever, by the way, Monica corrects us at the end of this, you'll leave, she'll listen to it and she'll point out everything.

[764] If you look at people's brains while they start talking about politics, you see the area of the brain that is your identity, right?

[765] And anytime people are discussing things that potentially affect their identity, that's when you see the most outsized reactions, the vitriol, what you're talking about.

[766] So even the fact that people, You listen to our language, you go, I'm a Democrat, I'm a conservative, I'm a liberal.

[767] Well, no, you're not those things.

[768] You're a father.

[769] You're a mother.

[770] You're a daughter.

[771] Those are identities.

[772] These are ideas you have that you happen to support or not support.

[773] But because it's filed and I am pro -life, I am pro -choice, when you start talking about that topic, your identity is being threatened.

[774] And you will fight very hard to protect your own identity.

[775] to the death.

[776] And so that, just the way we frame all these things, is a little dangerous.

[777] Definitely.

[778] That is, I am a liberal.

[779] Well, no, I have some liberal thoughts and I have some conservative thoughts and I have whatever, you know, I think that's where it gets really dangerous.

[780] If you're only getting, as I said, affirmation, not information.

[781] Humans are almost incapable of receiving new information.

[782] You basically have opinions and then you find other information to support that opinion and then you throw out and reject information that threatens that opinion.

[783] So what's great is, and that's what we were talking about earlier, is systems can counteract that.

[784] So humans are very bad at this, but systems are good at it.

[785] Peer review is great at it.

[786] Science is great at it.

[787] The academia has been traditionally very good at this.

[788] And left to your own devices, you really can't escape confirmation bias, any of us.

[789] And I think it's uncomfortable, right?

[790] It requires listening.

[791] It requires processing.

[792] It requires thinking.

[793] And I think all those things, the world is working against those tendencies.

[794] And so that's one of the things, honestly, I tried to do in this series is to help people develop empathy for people who are different than they are.

[795] So one of them I did on what is it like to be a Muslim in America right now with so much Islamophobia.

[796] When Kamal Najiani hosted S &L, he said Islamophobia is having a moment.

[797] And I wanted to understand what it's like to be a Muslim in this country right now, given the rhetoric, given the talk of the travel ban.

[798] And, you know, I'm hoping that people, you know, 50 % of Americans say they've never met a Muslim.

[799] They probably have.

[800] They just don't realize it.

[801] That's like when you just asked if they knew a gay person in the 80s and they're like, no. Yeah.

[802] And so I wanted to give Muslim Americans a chance to talk about it.

[803] And I wanted to also provide a counter -narrative to what we're hearing, what we're seeing, how our biases are being formed by what people hear on the news on television.

[804] Georgia State did a study and said when a Muslim person commits a terrorist act, it gets four and a half times the newspaper coverage as when a white American commits a terrorist act.

[805] And the way these acts are framed by the media and by politicians are so different that no one.

[806] it feeds into our confirmation bias, right?

[807] Or supplies.

[808] And we're born xenophobic.

[809] We have in -group, out -group, us, them.

[810] That's all hardwired into there.

[811] And if you think you're going to overcome that without a pretty sophisticated apparatus to help you overcome that, you know, it's just, it's your state of nature.

[812] Right.

[813] Is to do us and them.

[814] I see my four -year -old daughter.

[815] I like a certain motorcycle racer.

[816] And so I watched the race with her and she was like, I hope those other guys, lose.

[817] Like she already fit, you know, it's just in her to know, oh, that guy's got to win and those guys got to lose.

[818] And I was watching like, oh, this is just the circuitry.

[819] It's there.

[820] Well, you're also modeling for her, right?

[821] Yeah.

[822] But I wasn't saying I hope those other guys lose.

[823] I'm just saying I love Valentino Rossi, which I do, Katie, so much.

[824] Listen, I want, I'm respectful.

[825] It's so interesting, by the way, isn't it?

[826] It's, you know, it's interesting to talk about these things.

[827] I have this very remarkable experience during the course of making this documentary series.

[828] I I went to Johnstown, Pennsylvania, and spent some time with some EMS workers.

[829] And I wanted to hear their reaction to sort of hot button cultural issues.

[830] So I asked them what they thought of Colin Kaepernick and the takeny movement and what was being done at NFL games.

[831] And then I asked them, what do you think when you hear Black Lives Matter?

[832] And it's a group of white men all gather around a table or eating cold pizza.

[833] And they said all lives matter.

[834] Right.

[835] And, you know, I started talking a little bit about systemic racism and the long tale of sort of what's what this country has been about and how we've never really acknowledged it, which is the subject of another hour I'm doing on Confederate statues.

[836] But anyway, so this guy, man, an EMS worker named Carlos walked in and he's African American.

[837] And he said, he started talking about what Black Lives Matter means to him.

[838] And he said, you know, when I was younger, I would read articles about men being lynched for looking at white women like, you know, he pointed at me. Yeah.

[839] And, you know, he talked about the civil rights movement and he talked about the hatred that existed towards African Americans.

[840] And he said, he was much more eloquent than I am right now, but he just in a very measured way kind of talked about how he perceived his movements.

[841] historical content text right and and all the guys around the table just listened and they said wow just listening to Carlos talk about this yeah really has changed my perspective yeah and I was like if people sat around a table I think I said this in the episode and talked and shared their experience and ate cold pizza and one of the guys even said we've never talked about this because we didn't want to make you feel awkward well maybe people need to feel a little awkward and a little more open to hearing and because it is not black and white.

[842] Right.

[843] But even in that situation, what was helpful is that he was an us.

[844] Because they were EMTs together, right?

[845] They were co -workers.

[846] Yeah.

[847] There was a level of us.

[848] And I think of white people are watching a black person interviewed on the nightly news, that person is them.

[849] And you need some binding agent to have your ears open, right?

[850] So luckily in that scenario, they came to know this guy and he was now us and not them.

[851] They didn't find him threatening for your point.

[852] And they, you know, they say that the biggest leap forward in race relations ever was the Vietnam War weirdly because that was the first time we had non -segregated troops.

[853] And it was the first time white people from the middle of the country are living next to black folks and they're talking to them and realizing, oh, we're fucking the same thing.

[854] And it's hugely helpful, right, to be interacting with one another and realizing there isn't in us and them, which is hard.

[855] But also, you know, the kind of narratives that were fed that feed our implicit biases also need to be altered.

[856] You know, in the Muslim episode, in 2008, I want to say, I can't remember the year I was interviewing some actors from this show in Canada called Little Mosque on the Prairie.

[857] And it really just portrayed a Muslim family.

[858] And I said, you know, I think in America, we need a Muslim version of the Cosby show.

[859] this was before we knew about Bill Cosby, so, you know, keep that in mind.

[860] I got.

[861] Take that with the greatest.

[862] Asterix.

[863] Yeah, I got eviscerated for making that suggestion.

[864] Oh, really?

[865] But the thing is, that's what most Muslim families are like in this country.

[866] And I think because we see so little depicted of normal, you know, Muslim Americans who are, you know, share our values and believe in what we, what.

[867] sort of we collectively believe as Americans, we don't have a counter -narrative.

[868] And I think that's really important.

[869] And I think we're in the current climate, we don't get any kind of counter -narrative of any kind.

[870] Well, I believe we're getting about the most extreme info from the left, the most extreme 10 % of the left and the most extreme 10 % from the right.

[871] I think they're making the headline.

[872] So it's very deceptive, actually.

[873] I don't think, like when I'm out in the real world, I don't find it as bifurcated is I'm led to believe if I go on Twitter.

[874] Listen, I'm very respectful of your time.

[875] So I just want to ask you a couple more personal things before you leave us.

[876] And it's going to be sad when you do that when you leave us.

[877] You're a female.

[878] Yes.

[879] I've noticed this about you from looking at you.

[880] Last time I checked.

[881] Yeah.

[882] And you raised daughters.

[883] You have two daughters?

[884] I do.

[885] And did you at all wrestle with the thing that my wife wrestles with that a lot of women I know wrestle with, which is if you're not pursuing your career and you're at home, you're feeling guilty.

[886] And then when you're pursuing your career and you're not at home, you're feeling guilty.

[887] This like this terrible thing that is put upon women to just basically live in a state of guilt.

[888] Did that at all plague you?

[889] Not as much as it might other moms because I was very lucky.

[890] I could go home at noon or 1 o 'clock and pick my daughters up from school.

[891] That's great.

[892] I traveled some.

[893] You know, of course, my situation, when my husband died, my daughters were just two and six.

[894] And so that was obviously an incredibly challenging thing, but I feel very strongly that women need to be financially independent and have their own thing.

[895] I respect people who stay at home and raise their families if they have that choice and that luxury.

[896] Yeah.

[897] But I also feel that you never know what's around the corner.

[898] And it's really important for you to develop your whole sense of self as someone who's also contributing to the world, if possible.

[899] Yeah.

[900] And that, you know, that's really what I wanted to teach my daughters, the importance of being independent.

[901] And, yes, at times I felt guilty about not being there.

[902] I missed when my daughter, Ellie, first walked.

[903] I think I was in Barcelona covering the Olympics.

[904] Uh -huh.

[905] But they have turned out really, really well.

[906] They're great young women.

[907] I think they have an extraordinary sense of themselves.

[908] and about their potential and what they can do in the world.

[909] And I just think that kids really benefit from seeing that.

[910] Yeah.

[911] And your husband was 42 when he died?

[912] Yeah.

[913] And you were, I was 41.

[914] You were 41.

[915] And now I live in abject terror of this scenario because we have three and four year old.

[916] And I just think, oh, my God, what if tomorrow I'm doing this all by myself?

[917] Did you have a support system?

[918] Do you like grief counseling?

[919] Celine, how do you, it's by my estimation about the worst thing that can happen to somebody, you know.

[920] Yeah, I think.

[921] Well, no, your child being sick would be worse.

[922] Yeah.

[923] But have a, losing a child, I think is.

[924] Yeah, I don't know how one goes on after that.

[925] But, I mean, I don't think we have to rate like how bad one thing is over another.

[926] Tragedies or tragedies.

[927] And, you know, listen, I was lucky in that I had a job I loved.

[928] I had a very supportive community of people who watched me on the Today Show.

[929] It's horrific enough to have that experience privately, but to show up to work when that is, I'm sure, a national headline, how are you not, how are you just not so self -conscious that everyone in this room is thinking about this?

[930] Did you have that feeling?

[931] Well, my husband was sick for nine months.

[932] And for me, because when he was diagnosed, he had metastatic colon cancer.

[933] And for me, the two hours at the time I did the Today Show were kind of a respite from thinking about him and find a magic bullet, find a better treatment.

[934] I was doing tons of research on the side because he didn't really want to know a lot.

[935] It's just unusual and interesting because he was exceedingly intelligent.

[936] And I took it upon myself to call pharmaceutical companies in Israel and to talk to universities and call NIH because I had some.

[937] access to some of those places.

[938] Yeah, yeah, you're going through your, and, uh, but, but it was helpful for me to have those two hours where I could focus on something else and it really required my undivided attention.

[939] Yeah.

[940] But, you know, that I think back on that whole period of time and it's still so surreal for me where you're kind of going through the motions and, you know, we were on top of the world.

[941] Jay was loving his work in New York.

[942] I had this.

[943] I never imagined a million years I would get just, I've just never thought.

[944] And you're in that period with children where it's like just this bubble of.

[945] And our girls were so great.

[946] I always say to people, enjoy that sweet spot.

[947] I know your dad passed away, right?

[948] Of cancer.

[949] And my stepfather is very much on his last legs with prostate cancer.

[950] But that sweet spot in your life when your kids are little and your parents are healthy, it's such a wonderful time and you have to really say I wish I could just freeze frame this moment in my life and you can't so you just have to really appreciate it.

[951] Did you have the awareness at the time while it was happening and you go like, oh, this is the sweet spot?

[952] I mean, I think maybe occasionally I did but probably not enough.

[953] Yeah, it's hard to keep reminding yourself of that, right?

[954] Yeah.

[955] Yeah, I tried to say it out loud as often as I can, so I'll start acknowledging it.

[956] But you know, you get through it because you have to get through it.

[957] You don't have a choice.

[958] You have children.

[959] I got to imagine there's a humongous dose of sorrow on your end because your partner and someone you've sworn to be with the rest of your life has passed.

[960] But then you've seen the love for their father.

[961] You've seen your daughters.

[962] I assume they loved him like crazy.

[963] Is that even more heartbreaking, knowing that that's going away for your kids?

[964] Because I certainly care more about what my kids are going through than what I'm going through.

[965] So does that compound everything?

[966] You know, you just think about the fact that, you know, their dad is never going to be there for important moments in their lives and to shape them.

[967] And I'm sure Jay would have had a lot to do with the people they eventually became.

[968] Yeah.

[969] Yeah, of course, it's heartbreaking for them.

[970] It's heartbreaking for me and to think about them having to not have a dad at these moments.

[971] You know, I remember there was a father -daughter dance at Ellie's school.

[972] And, you know, I went to the school and I said there are three little girls who don't have dads at the school.

[973] Do you think we can get rid of this tradition?

[974] Can we have it like a special person?

[975] Yeah, yeah.

[976] Daughter dance because, you know, kids don't like to be different.

[977] No. And, you know, so things came out all the time, you know, that made it.

[978] really painful but yeah you know you just you keep moving forward it is what it is yeah you know and did you have a tactic um that you employed to just keep moving forward did did you go to therapy or did you have any like grief support group or anything like that i mean i think i yeah i i i did go to therapy and i had my daughter who was six go and talk to somebody because I always feel like you never regret getting psychological help, you regret not getting it.

[979] Yeah, absolutely.

[980] And Carrie was only two, so she was too little.

[981] And I think that, you know, I tried to support them and do everything I possibly could.

[982] I talked to their school.

[983] I helped put together a handbook for private schools in New York because as people have children older, this happens more often now.

[984] And I didn't feel the school was especially prepared or equipped to deal with it.

[985] Yeah.

[986] When a parent dies.

[987] Were you, I would imagine self -pity at that point is a very attractive option.

[988] Did you, I can imagine having to really try to steer myself out of going, oh, the world, the universe is conspiring against me. Or I've had so much good fortune in my life.

[989] This makes sense.

[990] Now it's getting even with me. I don't.

[991] Are you crazy like me or no?

[992] I don't, I didn't sort of go through.

[993] the, you know, getting even thing, but I did have sort of a very problem -free life until I was 40.

[994] And then the decade between 40 and 50 was really challenging.

[995] I lost my sister to pancreatic cancer after my husband died.

[996] And you did something really cool, though, is that you got a colonoscopy on TV, right?

[997] And it led to all these people getting colonoscopies and they called it the quirk effect, right?

[998] You did your homework.

[999] So that is, that is what an amazing way to turn something that you're so powerless against into something positive as hard as that is.

[1000] I was very fortunate because I had this built -in bully pulpit and I could actually educate people.

[1001] And I was, you know, there are a lot of people who have these terrible losses and you do feel so powerless during the course of a disease and there's just nothing you can do.

[1002] It doesn't matter how successful you are.

[1003] You can't buy your way out of cancer.

[1004] or fame your way out.

[1005] And I think that, you know, I felt a real obligation that I had an audience that might be receptive because they saw me going through this, that they might be educated about this and prevent it.

[1006] And that has been an incredibly gratifying part of my life to be able to do that.

[1007] I just took Jimmy Kimmel to get a colonoscopy because it's one of those.

[1008] things, you have to keep reminding people.

[1009] And when they turn 50 and 45, if you're African American, you have to get your first, your screen, you know, your baseline colonoscopy.

[1010] Yeah, I work with the prostate cancer foundation.

[1011] And yeah, African Americans are twice as likely to die of that disease, African American men.

[1012] Prostate cancer.

[1013] Yes, prostate cancer.

[1014] But I took Jimmy.

[1015] He was such a good sport, you know, because, you know, I feel like he'll reach a new audience.

[1016] Yeah.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] Yeah.

[1019] He really was great.

[1020] And he's taken a strong interest in issues regarding people's health.

[1021] And so that'll be really fun.

[1022] And they did a funny skit with it.

[1023] And I was sort of his date for his colonoscopy.

[1024] I'm going to lighten it up by telling you my colonoscopy experience.

[1025] Did you get a colonoscopy?

[1026] I've had so many, it would make your head spin.

[1027] And here's because I had a grandfather who died of stomach cancer.

[1028] And then I've had other members that I'll keep them private.

[1029] But suffice to say, it's wrong.

[1030] rampant in my family, right?

[1031] So at about 16, my mother's like, you're getting colonoscopy.

[1032] 16?

[1033] Yes, because I have a very young members of my family have gotten this.

[1034] So it was warranted.

[1035] So I go and get my first colonoscopy at 16, not what a 16 year old boys dying to do.

[1036] Yeah.

[1037] And then I was getting them every five years since then.

[1038] And the last one I went to, which weirdly enough I was prepping for it when I was with Jimmy Camel on a trip.

[1039] And, you know, it's miserable because we're in Memphis and everyone's eating barbecue and I'm drinking that crazy fluid.

[1040] It's just terrible on all accounts.

[1041] And then so I go to get my colonoscopy in the doctor, which is a new one, he goes, okay, so why are you getting these so often?

[1042] And why did you start so early?

[1043] And I go, because of a familial palpopus or whatever you said.

[1044] Oh, oh.

[1045] So you have, yeah, that's a very hereditary form.

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] So I go because of that.

[1048] And he goes, okay, so you're what your dad's dad died of it.

[1049] And I go, no, no, my mom's dad died.

[1050] He goes, oh, it doesn't travel on the male, on the female side.

[1051] You do not need to be getting these.

[1052] You didn't need to get any of those.

[1053] Really?

[1054] Yes, that it doesn't travel.

[1055] Look, I'm probably misinforming people, but again, Monica will tell me if I'm wrong.

[1056] At least this doctor told me that, that it would have had to have been on my father's side for me to warn all this.

[1057] I'm not sure if that's right, Monica.

[1058] I think you need to fact check that.

[1059] She'll dig into that for sure.

[1060] So you had a family history.

[1061] ameliopaloposis, which does affect people.

[1062] So I may have gotten like 10 that I didn't need.

[1063] Yeah.

[1064] Well, did you enjoy them?

[1065] You know?

[1066] Did you enjoy the anesthesia?

[1067] Well, I'll tell you this.

[1068] It does give you a nice nap.

[1069] It does.

[1070] And what's nice is they give you Versed before they give you the knockout.

[1071] So the Versed is a Benzo.

[1072] It's like a Xanax or something.

[1073] And I'm sober for 13 years.

[1074] So yes, it's a nice freebie.

[1075] There's about a minute where you're just feeling the Versed before you go out.

[1076] And for me, that's kind of worth it.

[1077] so your daughters are they're doing well they've gone to college they've done the things that you would pray that they would do my daughter is graduate my younger daughter is graduating this spring summer uh in june so i guess before the start of summer and my other daughter graduated in 2013 now the dream is as a parent that your kids would think you're cool and in our experience we have the only two kids who don't care about frozen ironically yeah and so Do you're, despite that your daughter's mother is Katie Couric, this just zenith of female empowerment and should be something of a source of great, great pride, were they embarrassed by you growing up?

[1078] Can you be cool to your kids?

[1079] Were you the one person?

[1080] You know, they, they would get embarrassed about things that I would do.

[1081] But in general, I think they're really proud of me, honestly.

[1082] I think they feel not always proud of me, but I think they feel that I've really tried to have.

[1083] have a positive impact in the world.

[1084] When Ellie was in fourth grade, she said to me in the kitchen, mom, I'm really proud of the things you're doing about colon cancer.

[1085] And that was so moving to me. And, you know, but she's also said to me once, I remember when I was in a interviewed for a woman's magazine, she said, you know, I'd prefer you don't tell stories about me. I feel like that's my personal information.

[1086] And I don't, I feel like you shouldn't be sharing things like that.

[1087] Uh -huh.

[1088] So that's cool.

[1089] I think we've had an incredibly open, extremely close relationship.

[1090] And my younger daughter, who just got into Columbia Journalism School, I hope she goes, said, you know, when I come back to New York, I hope we can spend some time together because I want us to be closer, which I thought was so sweet.

[1091] She probably is going to get mad.

[1092] I hopefully she won't hear this.

[1093] But, you know, so I think we have a really wonderful, strong relationship.

[1094] And I have to say I'm very proud of my girls because most importantly, They're kind, nice young women.

[1095] Yeah.

[1096] They're also, I think, work super hard.

[1097] You know, they're not entitled at all.

[1098] That's hard to do.

[1099] And they're not braddy.

[1100] I think, and I think they have exceptionally high emotional intelligence.

[1101] Yeah, those are all lovely things.

[1102] Last thing I want to ask you about and then you can get out of my attic.

[1103] Okay.

[1104] What are you eating, by the way?

[1105] Are you eating mints?

[1106] I'm so addicted to nicotine.

[1107] It's preposterous.

[1108] Oh, really?

[1109] These are nicotine throat lozenges because I quit smoking 12 years ago.

[1110] And so do you eat those a lot?

[1111] Oh, you better believe it.

[1112] Around the clock.

[1113] But there's no downside to it.

[1114] Now, nicotine of itself is not bad for you.

[1115] It raises your blood pressure a little bit, but I have moderate to low blood pressure, so not an issue.

[1116] Yeah.

[1117] Can also delay the onset of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

[1118] Wow.

[1119] Can I have one of those?

[1120] Yeah, you can take them all.

[1121] Tell me when is your documentary?

[1122] airing.

[1123] So it's a documentary series.

[1124] It's six hours.

[1125] It's a docu series.

[1126] It's a docu series.

[1127] And it's Ken Byrne style.

[1128] Yeah.

[1129] Not 20 hours or whatever he did on Vietnam.

[1130] I admire Ken so much.

[1131] I think he does just amazing, amazing work.

[1132] So even being, you know, mentioned in the same sentence as him.

[1133] I'm, it premieres on April 11th.

[1134] And that's the episode really examining Confederate iconography and our memorial.

[1135] landscape.

[1136] And I was in Charlottesville during that horrific Unite the Right rally because I'd gone there to explore how this whole controversy over the Robert Lee statue began, which it began with a 16 -year -old high school student who, you know, did a petition about it.

[1137] And that's how sort of the ball got rolling.

[1138] But I was there for that rally.

[1139] And I travel all over the country, including a conversation with Brian Stevenson, who's opening up a lynching museum in April.

[1140] This month because that's a part of our American history.

[1141] We've never really acknowledged or come to terms with.

[1142] And he's the most extraordinary person.

[1143] Can I just say from my point of view in school, I learned, oh, we had slavery.

[1144] That was deplorable.

[1145] But emancipation proclamation, A. Blinking, we're good.

[1146] We abolished it.

[1147] And that was that.

[1148] I'm now reading the Ulysses S. Grant biography.

[1149] And it's so good at detailing what that next eight years was like.

[1150] And there was just people setting up shop at polling stations and just gunning down black folks that were going to vote.

[1151] It did not end.

[1152] And they really kind of whitewashed that in my, at least my education.

[1153] I wasn't aware of, you know, I thought, oh, like a light switch.

[1154] We did the right thing and that was that.

[1155] And oh, no, decades and decades of virtually no improvement whatsoever.

[1156] Exactly.

[1157] And some of the things I learned in exploring this is when these statues were erected and what was the message behind them.

[1158] The lot were put up after Brown v. Board of Education, you know, in the years following that.

[1159] It's kind of hard to deny.

[1160] But I just want people to understand the backstory and that it isn't black and white and to understand why these things are considered so offensive to African Americans in this country.

[1161] It's just, it's very interesting.

[1162] But anyway, that's an episode.

[1163] And then we have five more.

[1164] Yeah, it's on the National Geographic Channel.

[1165] And so I did Muslims in America.

[1166] I did this whole PC nation.

[1167] What's going on with cultural appropriations, safe spaces, microaggressions, trigger warnings, and examination of that.

[1168] I did gender inequality in Hollywood and Silicon Valley.

[1169] You know, these all predated, by the way, the Me Too movement.

[1170] Right.

[1171] And you filmed these, what, a year ago?

[1172] Well, I started in August working on these.

[1173] So I've been shooting for about eight months.

[1174] By months, I did an hour on white anxiety to help people understand kind of what's going on in some of these smaller cities and, you know, the Rust Belt and rural America.

[1175] I went to Storm Lake, Iowa and Fremont, Nebraska, places I would never visit.

[1176] You could have run for office on all these steps.

[1177] But people, it did make me realize that we really, people are in a bubble.

[1178] They're not out talking to people about their problems, their concerns, their lives, their triumphs and their tragedies.

[1179] And you can see why there's a resentment on the part of people who feel that the media and other institutions are out of touch because in many ways they really are.

[1180] Sure, yeah, yeah.

[1181] I'm lucky enough that all my hobbies are all red state kind of hobbies into off -roading and all these other things.

[1182] So I'm constantly submerged in an opposing viewpoint of my own.

[1183] It was at the height of the election, you know, a year ago, November.

[1184] and we went out to the sand dunes, Kristen and I, with our kids, and we're out there.

[1185] And it's largely Trump flags on the back of doom buggies.

[1186] And, you know, we'd be sitting around talking with other families.

[1187] And I would go, oh, this guy's a dad.

[1188] Oh, he went through a lot to get his family out here to do this recreational thing.

[1189] And look at this guy pushing his kids on the swing set and all these things.

[1190] And, oh, where are you guys from?

[1191] And where do you run a motor home?

[1192] You know, all these conversations were happening.

[1193] And I was able to go like, oh, yeah, all that political stuff.

[1194] it's like number nine of what I would judge someone's character on.

[1195] It's like first I was like, this guy's a great dad, too, this guy loves, you know, he loves his kids.

[1196] He's a good husband.

[1197] He, you know, he's a hard worker.

[1198] There's all these things that are actions.

[1199] They're not thought.

[1200] They're actions.

[1201] If I judge this man by his actions, very admirable human being.

[1202] And it just kind of right sized how much I care about a political difference.

[1203] You know, if I just looking at what the human is, it just kind of right -sized it all.

[1204] It was a good timing for us to go there because obviously we're as much in a chamber as anyone else.

[1205] We have really, really demonized each other to such a degree that.

[1206] I hate that the left's full explanation of Trump is that, you know, 30 % in the country is racist.

[1207] I'm just like, that's way too simple.

[1208] It's too dismissive.

[1209] It's too, you know, I just, I reject that.

[1210] I don't think that's, you know.

[1211] But it's also because you said we are currently.

[1212] in a space that's so extreme, the actual things that are being said are so extreme by the candidates.

[1213] So when a Muslim person is at the Sand Dunes talking to that person, they can say like, oh, he's a good provider, he's a good father.

[1214] But he is voting for someone that is going to ban me from living here.

[1215] Yes.

[1216] And if I'm that Muslim in that situation, that is 100 % how I would feel as well.

[1217] But I can look at that guy and go, you know what?

[1218] I bet he has a single, kind of a single issue voter.

[1219] It's the economy.

[1220] jobs and I think it's it's so he might actually be sympathetic to that or he might go I don't believe in this wall or I don't but but this issue for me the other ones I'm unfortunately are going to fall below the priority many I I you can't generalize but I think this whole notion of bringing back jobs whether he'll be able to do that or not is of course a big question mark but even caring about that even wanting even being responsive to that feeling of you know there are deaths of despair among these communities from drug overdoses, alcoholism, and a huge spike in suicides.

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] And I think to feel that you're included, that you're heard and that you're cared about was really part of that.

[1223] Or someone saying, look, this system's not working.

[1224] For those people, it's not working for them.

[1225] And someone's actually going, well, this system's broke, which certainly takes the onus off of you.

[1226] You know, it's comforting to know, oh, I'm the victim of a. flawed system and this person's going to hopefully fix the system.

[1227] I see the appeal of it, you know.

[1228] I personally don't feel excluded from the system.

[1229] I'm lucky as hell.

[1230] I'm, if anything, benefiting from the system.

[1231] So I'm not as critical of it.

[1232] But I know other people that feel very marginalized by the system, you know.

[1233] Yeah.

[1234] Yeah.

[1235] And it's also, though, a lack of like hearing both sides and saying, this person's also saying that there's, the system is broken.

[1236] But that's not the solution.

[1237] Here's a different solution.

[1238] It's just, yeah, I think when you're really worried about feeding your family or paying your mortgage, that's what is really speaking to you more than some of these other issues that maybe you'd be surprised about their point of view, but it's not just what's propelling them to vote a certain way.

[1239] And, you know, a couple of guys I talked to in Erie, I sat in a bar and just, you know, shot the shit with these guys.

[1240] No. In Erie, I had a, I had a, I had a beer and I'm a big beer drinker.

[1241] But, you know, they said, hey, we voted for Obama twice.

[1242] And we just, I think they saw the life that they expected kind of crumbling before their eyes.

[1243] And they felt that somebody cared about them.

[1244] Look at this, this Flint Netflix series that just came out, eight parts on Flint.

[1245] I'm from Michigan.

[1246] Oh, I did a thing on Lifetime about Flint.

[1247] with Queen Latifah, which was a really good movie, a lifetime movie.

[1248] What's it called?

[1249] It's called Flint.

[1250] Oh, okay.

[1251] Yeah.

[1252] But yeah, you look at that community, you know, the auto industry is left, and you've got 100 ,000 people who are living below, you know, many, many of them below the poverty line, that the police department's got a third of what they're supposed to have.

[1253] You look at all these things, and if I live in Flint, Michigan, I need someone to say, like, this thing's fucked up.

[1254] This is broken.

[1255] and I need, you know, so I can, I can totally sympathize with that.

[1256] One just last point, which I think is so interesting, is this huge transformation we're witnessing in the world of work where automation, 38 % of jobs, I think, are going to be lost to automation in the next 15 years, I think.

[1257] We have to help figure out what people are going to do for a living.

[1258] Retraining, yeah, that has to be part of the cost.

[1259] Well, or even a living, a stipend, what do they call it?

[1260] What do they call it?

[1261] What do they call it?

[1262] What do they call it?

[1263] It's just amazing how it, how transformative technology is in every arena.

[1264] And I would love the presidential candidates or the president himself to start really examining what this means.

[1265] If, in fact, 38 % of jobs may be lost to automation in the next 15 years, that, is extraordinary and how are we educating people and i'm not talking about retraining i'm talking about training you know how it how is our educational system going to respond to that how do we help people who mid career like a lot of these people i spoke to in my white anxiety hour are going to adjust so they'll have something a paying job in the future these are huge huge issues more people are talking about it now yeah but i feel like our politicians really aren't.

[1266] Yeah.

[1267] I think, you know, when it's 90 % unemployment and there is a stipend from the government, fine.

[1268] That's going to be great.

[1269] To me, it's when you get to 40 % unemployment, that's civil war time.

[1270] It's the transition before everything's actually being provided by all this robotics and AI.

[1271] Not to mention like, you know, the role they're going to play in modern warfare.

[1272] And it's a very complicated and really scary and altering thing.

[1273] think about.

[1274] I'm an optimist.

[1275] We'll figure it out.

[1276] I think we'll.

[1277] You don't think the robots are going to turn on us.

[1278] I know.

[1279] I know.

[1280] I don't think they're missing some primitive hardware that makes us egomaniacs.

[1281] Yeah.

[1282] I think it's fascinating too.

[1283] How do you navigate?

[1284] I have to imagine your job is a little similar to an actor's in that there is occasionally job insecurity or relevance in security or all these things.

[1285] So you've navigated a very long career.

[1286] But I have to imagine, I mean, from my perspective, it's all been, as I said, all peaks, but I'm sure there's been many times where you felt like, okay, the ride's over.

[1287] I'm pulling back into the station.

[1288] Is that plague you?

[1289] Are you inordinately confident and optimistic?

[1290] I mean, of course it plagues me. I usually just try to focus on the work itself.

[1291] What can I do that I'm really going to enjoy?

[1292] What am I good at?

[1293] What skills do I have that are, you know, different and how can I employ them and what I do on a daily basis?

[1294] But we live in a very unfair world for women in particular.

[1295] Yeah.

[1296] Where they age out women way quicker than men.

[1297] Yeah, you know, I think, well, not only that, but the whole idea of a glass cliff, when a woman fails, it becomes this huge, big McGillow, but men fail up.

[1298] And, you know, men blame other people, women blame themselves.

[1299] like there's this whole kind of different way that that women and men are perceived and cope individually or personally with success and failure but you know I don't know I just sort of am having fun I keep doing things that I think are important that fill a need that isn't being filled right now but did you get to a point where you were able to finally go like all right shut up brain if I look at the facts the history of my life I've stayed employed everything's worked out when did you feel finally like, you know what, I'm good.

[1300] I don't have to prove anything anymore.

[1301] Yeah, and just the facts would suggest I'm going to land on my feet all the time and just stop worrying about and keep moving forward.

[1302] No, I wish I could be more like that.

[1303] Oh, okay, good, good.

[1304] I'm not like that.

[1305] Good, because I aspire to that and I would have been very jealous.

[1306] No, no, no. I mean, I always feel like I have something else to do and something else to conquer and maybe I'm egotistical enough to think that I have something else to offer.

[1307] Uh -huh.

[1308] So I like being in the mix.

[1309] I like talking about important issues.

[1310] I like contributing any way I can.

[1311] I like adjusting to technology and the way people are consuming and the way you deliver information.

[1312] So I've really embraced, you know, things like podcasting.

[1313] I do a weekly podcast myself.

[1314] I've embraced.

[1315] It's called Ready for it?

[1316] Katie Couric.

[1317] Nice.

[1318] Hard to forget.

[1319] I need a better one.

[1320] I need like an armchair.

[1321] No, you got to stick.

[1322] You got to stick with it.

[1323] No, no, no. I really want to change the name.

[1324] So if you guys have any ideas, tell your listeners.

[1325] Tell your listeners to come up with it better.

[1326] But would you ever take an anchor job again?

[1327] Probably not.

[1328] I don't really think of it that way.

[1329] I think of what is the project and where can it get to people and how do you.

[1330] Yeah, because I don't think people recognize that even the world's most exciting jobs become routine after a while.

[1331] As dreadful as that is to admit publicly.

[1332] But even for me, acting was much more fun 15 years ago than it is today.

[1333] It's simply just because I've done it a bunch of times.

[1334] And I would imagine any job as spectacular as it is, you're ready for some change.

[1335] Yeah.

[1336] And I also like the idea of controlling my own destiny, not having to work for someone, not having to suck up to people to get good assignments and not having to be at the whim of some person.

[1337] because it's oftentimes very subjective when you're an on -camera person or when you're an actor, right?

[1338] I mean, it's sort of like somebody likes you, somebody doesn't.

[1339] But the thing is, you know, I also feel like as somebody, I'm 61 and why should I be aged out of doing what I do?

[1340] And I feel a responsibility that, you know, I have probably a lot more experience and a lot of people.

[1341] why should I step aside if I feel like I still have something to offer just because I'm not 32 anymore.

[1342] And I think part of it is we become conditioned in an almost Pavlovian way to see somebody who looks a certain way on camera.

[1343] And then you see somebody who looks older, you're like, ah, what happened?

[1344] And I think it's really important to see older people.

[1345] You know, Bob Schiefer did facination for years and years.

[1346] A little more Le Schaefer on 16 months.

[1347] Yeah, and yeah.

[1348] And well, I guess you do see some older women, but very rarely.

[1349] Like Leslie's tall, for example, but, you know.

[1350] Yeah.

[1351] I have a crush on Leslie.

[1352] Do you?

[1353] Yeah, she's a beast powerhouse.

[1354] So, you know, I think that's really important that people, they see it.

[1355] And it's not such a shock.

[1356] Where I grew up, I can't, I can't, it's hard for me to unplug this fantasy I have.

[1357] You work really hard.

[1358] You have some success.

[1359] And then you retire.

[1360] And you go to Florida, right?

[1361] Or wherever you go.

[1362] Boca.

[1363] Boca.

[1364] I don't know.

[1365] And do you have that fantasy or do you go, no, I enjoy working and I don't have a plan to not work?

[1366] Yeah.

[1367] I have a very hard time thinking about this idea of retiring or, you know, I would like to have a little more time to travel with my husband.

[1368] I have a great husband.

[1369] And he's really funny and smart and interesting.

[1370] and he thinks I'm crazy because he thinks I'm like this workaholic being.

[1371] Yeah, that's sometimes how I think of my wife.

[1372] But is she a workaholic?

[1373] She likes to work.

[1374] But my mother loved to work.

[1375] Yeah, you're used to that.

[1376] It doesn't take a Freudian therapist to figure out how I ended up.

[1377] Yeah.

[1378] It's very attractive to me. Do you want to retire and just kick that?

[1379] Yeah, yeah.

[1380] And what would you do with your time if you did that?

[1381] Motorsports all day long.

[1382] Oh, you would?

[1383] Yeah, yeah.

[1384] And do you think you'd get tired of that?

[1385] though?

[1386] Well, there's only one way to find out.

[1387] I mean, presumably I would because I get tired of anything, I guess.

[1388] Right.

[1389] But yeah, anything that has an accelerator pedal or on the handlebars, I seem to, I can spend endless time doing that.

[1390] But at the same time, to your point, I do think it's really important to be ever expanding your mind.

[1391] And if you're not, if you're not engaged in something, I don't know how you keep expanding it, you know.

[1392] And I feel like a dedication to continually expanding.

[1393] Yeah.

[1394] Which I think keeps you vibrant and youthful and alive.

[1395] Yeah.

[1396] Yeah.

[1397] As Sam Harris said recently when we saw him live, being drug, sometimes kicking and screaming to a new perspective, once you get to that new perspective, it's incredibly rewarding.

[1398] And I would hate to think that my days of being drugged to a new perspective would end, you know?

[1399] Yeah.

[1400] I agree.

[1401] And just learning all the time.

[1402] There's a constant, there's a constant opportunity to learn.

[1403] And, you know, and I have things I care deeply about.

[1404] Stand up to cancer is something I co -founded and I want to definitely stay involved in that.

[1405] And, you know, it's, it's a whole new landscape too.

[1406] I think there might have been a time with limited outlets that you exhausted those and there's not much you can do.

[1407] But now with disintermediation and being able to create things and build things out of nothing, the opportunity to be much more entrepreneurial and not work in sort of a corporate environment has never been better.

[1408] So, you know, I think you can keep going as long as you want to keep going.

[1409] Yeah, you can make it exactly what you'd want it to be, assuming you have that leverage, which I think you do and will continue to have.

[1410] I'm so flattered that you came to talk to us.

[1411] Oh, this was so fun.

[1412] It was very interesting.

[1413] Thank you, armchair expert.

[1414] Well, anyways, I say this sincerely.

[1415] I have a very strong, wonderful mother.

[1416] I've been blessed to have her raise me. And I'm so drawn to other successful, prolific, ambitious, engaged female.

[1417] I'm so glad you're around.

[1418] And I'm glad that my daughters have someone to look at like you.

[1419] Well, they're going to be a lot.

[1420] There are going to be a lot more of us.

[1421] and their generation.

[1422] Yeah, we would think so.

[1423] And hopefully that'll lead to all kinds of good things.

[1424] All right, Katie Kurt.

[1425] I love you.

[1426] Thank you for coming.

[1427] Thank you.

[1428] Stay tuned if you'd like to hear my good friend and producer Monica Padman point out the many errors in the podcast you just heard.

[1429] All right, Monica, let's do Katie Curick.

[1430] Okay.

[1431] Well, one thing I do want to say, I got a lot of pushback from last week's fact check because I said whooping cough was tuberculosis and it's not.

[1432] Oh, okay.

[1433] It's actually pertosis.

[1434] A lot of people told me that.

[1435] So I stand corrected.

[1436] Great.

[1437] So in good news, if you've got whooping cough, you don't have tuberculosis.

[1438] Maybe it's pertussis.

[1439] But I didn't, I was just saying that off the fly.

[1440] That wasn't a check.

[1441] Yeah, it's really hard sometimes because we're kind of making jokes on the fly and we're talking about serious stuff.

[1442] And look, the bottom line is this fucking thing's never going to be perfect, you know?

[1443] I'm going to interrupt some.

[1444] I'm going to do a little better.

[1445] But, you know, it is what it is at some point, right?

[1446] Exactly.

[1447] We're sorry and we'll try to do better.

[1448] Tuberculosis.

[1449] Congratulations.

[1450] You have whooping cough.

[1451] What if the doctor said, I've got good news and bad news?

[1452] The bad news is you have whooping cough.

[1453] The good news is you don't have tuberculosis.

[1454] That's silver lining.

[1455] Katie talked about the LeBron James take.

[1456] down, Laura Ingram's take down of a brawn James, and we didn't know what that was.

[1457] Was this where someone tweeted, just dribble the basketball or something?

[1458] She's a Fox News anchor.

[1459] And he had said the number one job in America, the appointed person is someone who doesn't understand the people.

[1460] So he had said some political comments in an interview.

[1461] And then he had said some of the president's comments are laughable and scary.

[1462] Oh, okay.

[1463] That was his opinion on that.

[1464] That was his opinion, exactly.

[1465] And then she responded.

[1466] But he shouldn't have an opinion because he plays basketball.

[1467] Right.

[1468] She responded on her show saying the comments were, quote, barely intelligible.

[1469] Oh, boy.

[1470] There's like ungrammatical.

[1471] And she said, it's always unwise to seek political advice from someone who gets paid $100 million a year to bounce a ball.

[1472] Keep the political comments to yourself.

[1473] Shut up and dribble.

[1474] I do love this theory because, of course, a lot of people tell me on Twitter that stick to acting or or whatever they think I do, that somehow a certain occupation would preclude you from having an opinion in a democracy, which we're all encouraged to have.

[1475] And those people are sharing their opinions.

[1476] Exactly.

[1477] So, all right.

[1478] Yeah, you stick to dermatology or whatever it is you do.

[1479] And we'll all just never have, we'll never air any of this out.

[1480] And then we'll go vote privately.

[1481] And then we'll die a sad, lonely death.

[1482] Yes.

[1483] I think LeBron James should say whatever he wants.

[1484] Me too.

[1485] I also hope he keeps dribbling that basketball.

[1486] He's a hell of a player.

[1487] He doesn't have to shut up and do it, but he should do it.

[1488] Yeah, you should do all things.

[1489] Exactly.

[1490] You said if you look at people's brains during an MRI when they're talking about politics, you see the area of their brain light up that's connected to their identity.

[1491] And that is correct.

[1492] Oh, thank goodness.

[1493] I was prepared to have a lot of egg on my face.

[1494] Yeah, they did a study at USC.

[1495] Oh.

[1496] Brain and Creativity Institute.

[1497] Proud educators of O .J. Simpson.

[1498] Oh, good for them.

[1499] Do you think he was taking the, like, psychology classes?

[1500] I don't know.

[1501] Maybe.

[1502] Yeah.

[1503] I don't think so, but maybe.

[1504] Actually, maybe.

[1505] Yeah, there's a racial undercurrent to that statement.

[1506] No, it's not.

[1507] It's a football.

[1508] I'm calling me. Don't say that.

[1509] That had nothing to do with it.

[1510] Most of the football players in my school were not taking those classes.

[1511] They weren't.

[1512] Well, I did see a real, real sports not too long ago about a, an NFL lineman who is a mathematician and they asked him in the interview someone with your statistical awareness given the brain injury issue and how much you value your brain how do you continue to play and he he basically said you know I'm aware of it but I but then that guy retired and he not because he didn't make a team he took that I guess that question to heart interesting all of a mathematician I'll say this only time I ran into the football players and classes was in my dance 101 class oh Oh, there were football players?

[1513] Many.

[1514] Were they gigantic?

[1515] Oh, yeah.

[1516] Did you like looking at now?

[1517] I sat in the back row.

[1518] I sat in the front row so I couldn't see them.

[1519] But they occupied a lot of space.

[1520] They were very nice.

[1521] Uh -huh.

[1522] And were you attracted to football players?

[1523] That's not, is that your, no. No, yeah, it's not generally your type.

[1524] Too macho.

[1525] Too macho.

[1526] Yeah, toxic masculinity like Kristen's show.

[1527] I'd love watching big, big Goliaths move around gracefully.

[1528] That would be great.

[1529] I would imagine they're pretty good at dance because they're nimble.

[1530] It was a lecture.

[1531] It was not a movement class.

[1532] Oh my God.

[1533] It was intro to dance.

[1534] It was like dance history or something.

[1535] Who was a read about dancing?

[1536] I want to learn how to fox trot.

[1537] Yeah, I think people wanted an A. Yeah, okay.

[1538] That was sort of my whole point.

[1539] That was the whole point.

[1540] Okay, so she couldn't remember the year she interviewed actors from the show Little Mosque on the Prairie.

[1541] Okay.

[1542] She thought it was 2008 and it was 2011.

[1543] She did get in trouble.

[1544] She did?

[1545] Yeah, she got in trouble because she had said that there should be a Muslim version of the Cosby Show in the United States.

[1546] And then she got a lot of pushback for that, which seems strange.

[1547] Sure.

[1548] In 2008, or 2011 she did or currently?

[1549] In 2011, because it was too cavalier.

[1550] Hollywood can't like solve this problem.

[1551] Holly weird.

[1552] Holly weird can't solve this massive Islamophobia problem.

[1553] Okay, you said African -American men are twice as likely to die of prostate cancer.

[1554] Yeah.

[1555] But then according to Harvardprostateknowledge .org, African -American men have the highest incidence of the disease.

[1556] They're roughly 1 .6 times more likely to develop prostate cancer than white and 2 .6 times more likely than Asian Americans.

[1557] To develop it.

[1558] But the point I was making, I only know this because I'm on the prostate cancer.

[1559] State Cancer Foundation, but I'm their spokesperson.

[1560] I do a lot of press for them.

[1561] I don't even know how at what rate they contracted, but I know that their treatment isn't, uh, is good in that they, once they have it, they die at twice the rate.

[1562] Okay.

[1563] You know, just to make that distinction clear.

[1564] But now I'm nervous even saying that.

[1565] That also might, that might have more of, I think it's a socioeconomic issue.

[1566] Yeah, for sure.

[1567] Okay.

[1568] No, there are diseases that do disproportionately affect African Americans, one of them being hypertension.

[1569] They have a way, way, way higher rate of hypertension.

[1570] Well, this does, developmentally -wise, I guess.

[1571] Yeah, so both, probably on both ends, they're both in their survival from it and diagnosis of it.

[1572] Familial.

[1573] Get your buns checked if you're African -American.

[1574] Yeah.

[1575] Let someone get in there and root around a little bit.

[1576] It's worth it.

[1577] And probably for everyone.

[1578] Everyone, yeah.

[1579] All the guys.

[1580] Asian Americans, I guess if you want to, it sounds like your risk is pretty low.

[1581] If you have an opening in your schedule, sure.

[1582] Okay.

[1583] Familial polyposis.

[1584] Oh, I can never say that word.

[1585] Thank you.

[1586] Polyposis.

[1587] According to my research, and I did a lot because I really believe.

[1588] Yeah, I care about you.

[1589] And I love that story so much.

[1590] Uh -huh.

[1591] That's not true.

[1592] It's not.

[1593] It can be inherited by either parent.

[1594] It can come through either lineage.

[1595] Well, fuck, I need to get back.

[1596] down there then and get some because it's been well again I remember it was I was on that airplane ride with James Kimmel so it was um yeah I was about 11 years ago I think I'm supposed to go every five years or something so maybe I should go back but but that doctor really did tell me that I know I guess this stuff evolves so quickly maybe with the time he told me it that's what maybe it's a two thirds of all the cases are inherited inherited from a parent with the mutant APC gene and the remaining one thing third of cases just arises from a spontaneous gene mutation.

[1597] Just bad luck.

[1598] Yeah.

[1599] Yeah, that's the other 30%.

[1600] Yeah, exactly.

[1601] Well, I just got your lab results back.

[1602] It appears you, uh, yeah, you have bad luck.

[1603] Good news, though.

[1604] No tuberculosis.

[1605] Only whooping cough.

[1606] Just a slight case of colon, whooping cough.

[1607] Um, okay, so then you brought up because you were eating your nicotine lozenge that you love.

[1608] Yeah, I love them.

[1609] I got one in now.

[1610] Yeah.

[1611] They smell really minty and nice.

[1612] Yeah, they're not bad.

[1613] Much better than my habit of chewing tobacco back in the day.

[1614] That does not make your mouth smell good.

[1615] This is better than that, yeah.

[1616] And you had mentioned that there are some advantages to nicotine in 2006.

[1617] Some Duke scientists did some research on this.

[1618] And there's a direct link between nicotine and an increase in the release of dopamine and serotonin.

[1619] Boom.

[1620] Separate study.

[1621] Okay.

[1622] We're now switching studies.

[1623] Switching studies.

[1624] I hope this is going to support my Parkinson's Alzheimer's claims.

[1625] Well, in 2000, a study performed at Stanford.

[1626] Never heard of it.

[1627] It's a very...

[1628] Community college?

[1629] Yeah, it's a very lowly college.

[1630] Okay, for losers and dumbs.

[1631] For people who couldn't really get into any of the other colleges, they let them in.

[1632] Okay.

[1633] Feeder college for losership.

[1634] Pretty much, yeah.

[1635] They revealed some surprising results about nicotine's effects on blood vessels.

[1636] for new diabetes treatment.

[1637] Or as Wilford Brimley would say diabetes.

[1638] Yeah, a lot of Southerners say that.

[1639] Diabetes.

[1640] Yeah.

[1641] He'd say, if you've got diabetes, get your blood sugar check regularly.

[1642] That's what Wilford Brimley.

[1643] He was on a campaign to help us be aware of diabetes.

[1644] Well, it's because diabetes you have poor circulation.

[1645] That's why they lose limbs, right?

[1646] And sometimes you have to get gangrene.

[1647] to amputate their feet and stuff.

[1648] Oh, it's such a bummer of a disease, diabetes.

[1649] As cute as the name is diabetes, it is very tragic.

[1650] But good news, it's not tuberculosis.

[1651] Congratulations.

[1652] Am I saying it weird?

[1653] Tuberculosis.

[1654] Yeah.

[1655] I got some heat from last week's, the way I pronounced Vietnamese.

[1656] Oh, Vietnamese.

[1657] But that was part of it that you didn't know how.

[1658] Okay, okay.

[1659] I just said a lot of people on Twitter, like, phonetically spelling it out.

[1660] It didn't help me at all, by the way.

[1661] Guys, when you phonetically spell stuff out for me, it's not a huge help.

[1662] Can you say it right now?

[1663] Vietnamese.

[1664] No. Still bad.

[1665] All right.

[1666] No. Well, look.

[1667] If you're listening, get on Twitter right now and spell it out.

[1668] Use numbers.

[1669] You say it.

[1670] I can't even hear what you're doing differently.

[1671] Yeah, isn't that?

[1672] That's weird.

[1673] That is interesting.

[1674] You're saying Vietnamese.

[1675] Great.

[1676] Right.

[1677] Sounds right.

[1678] So far.

[1679] You're, you're transposing the N and the M. Oh.

[1680] Easy mistake.

[1681] Those letters are so similar.

[1682] They are.

[1683] Similar noises.

[1684] So, and yes.

[1685] Yes.

[1686] Lower incidence of Alzheimer's and smokers.

[1687] I didn't see anything about Parkinson's.

[1688] Okay.

[1689] But Alzheimer's, yes.

[1690] She said that Ken Burns did a 20 -hour documentary on Vietnam.

[1691] Yes, on Vietnam.

[1692] How about when people say Vietnam?

[1693] Yeah, I don't.

[1694] You sound suspicious.

[1695] Because to me, the people who say that went there.

[1696] Yeah.

[1697] Well, that'll say Nam.

[1698] Yeah.

[1699] They never say nom.

[1700] I know, that's true.

[1701] But it was, that's a 10 part 17 and a half hour documentary series.

[1702] You watched it, right?

[1703] I watched like four of them and I loved it.

[1704] It's such a bigger story than I knew about, you know, just they hit.

[1705] and a half hours worth.

[1706] Yeah, the history leading up to it.

[1707] Ho Chi men, all that stuff was a lot more nuanced and complicated and interesting than I was expecting.

[1708] Cool.

[1709] I tried to watch it and I couldn't find it.

[1710] Yeah, yeah.

[1711] It was hard to find.

[1712] I think PBS maybe and I could be wrong.

[1713] But yeah, you usually can go to the PBS app and watch stuff.

[1714] And that one, they seem to want you to buy it or do something crazy.

[1715] So then I added it to the DVR and it picked it all up.

[1716] And now I have no space for anything else.

[1717] So I guess I have to watch it at this point just to get rid of it.

[1718] Clear up some space.

[1719] Yeah.

[1720] We were talking about when automation takes over and eventually we will have to have some sort of public stipend.

[1721] Oh, right.

[1722] And she couldn't remember what that was called.

[1723] The living wage.

[1724] She thought it was universal public income.

[1725] But there's a lot of names for it.

[1726] But the main one is a basic income.

[1727] Oh, okay.

[1728] So or basic income guarantee.

[1729] Citizens income, unconditional basic income, universal basic income, basic living stipend or universal demo grant.

[1730] And do nothing get paper.

[1731] Yep, a new kind of welfare regime, which all citizens receive a regular, livable, and unconditional sum of money from the government.

[1732] Which might be unavoidably in our future.

[1733] It might be.

[1734] Yeah.

[1735] We'll see.

[1736] We'll find out if yoval is correct.

[1737] Yvall.

[1738] Yvall.

[1739] It might be Yovil.

[1740] He's Vietnamese.

[1741] Isn't he?

[1742] Yeah.

[1743] And he does not have.

[1744] He's Israeli.

[1745] Tuberculosis.

[1746] No. That's the good news.

[1747] That's the good news.

[1748] Okay.

[1749] How many people living under the poverty line in Flint, Michigan?

[1750] You said 100 ,000.

[1751] Between 2009 and 2013, 41 .5 % of Flint's residents live below the poverty line.

[1752] And there's what, 300 ,000 Flintians?

[1753] I don't know.

[1754] I'm realizing that as I'm reading it out loud.

[1755] I don't know.

[1756] I would have loved to have crunched those numbers.

[1757] You know how much I like to show off my math skills when you give me like a percentage and then I have the total and then I can crunch that number really quick.

[1758] Do you want to do it live?

[1759] Yeah, because if it was 41 % and there were 300 ,000 people, that's 120 ,000 people.

[1760] You ever take like 1 ,000 people.

[1761] Okay.

[1762] 2016, that's the number I have here.

[1763] The population of Flint, Michigan is 97 ,38.

[1764] So you don't think there's 100 ,000 people below the poverty line.

[1765] I'm going to say no. Well, that's really easy now.

[1766] So then we can just say 40 ,000.

[1767] Because it was almost 100 ,000 people and it's a 41%.

[1768] So we'll just say 40 ,000 people.

[1769] And that's compared to 16 .8 % in the rest of the state.

[1770] It's really high.

[1771] It's super duper high.

[1772] So you referenced a Sam Harris live show that we went to.

[1773] You were talking about getting sort of dragged into a new perspective.

[1774] And that's good.

[1775] And that was Stephen Pinker's.

[1776] That was Stephen Pinker's talk.

[1777] Yeah.

[1778] But I thought this was just interesting.

[1779] This isn't a fact check really, but I thought it was interesting because the reason that came up, it was during the Q &A portion at the end, those can be brutal.

[1780] Uh -huh.

[1781] Yeah.

[1782] People were really using that platform for their 15 minutes.

[1783] Yeah.

[1784] But this guy had a really good question.

[1785] He said, when was the last time you changed your mind about something?

[1786] Yeah.

[1787] And Sam did say death penalty.

[1788] And I thought, oh, that's interesting because that's also one of mine that I've changed my opinion on.

[1789] Right.

[1790] That and tort reform.

[1791] But most people probably can't answer that.

[1792] But it's a very good thing to keep in your brain circulating.

[1793] Yeah, it's a good goal to have, basically.

[1794] You should be able to name something that you were, you've discovered you were wrong about.

[1795] Yeah, you're malleable enough to change your mind.

[1796] Yeah.

[1797] Based on knowledge.

[1798] Do you have one?

[1799] Well, I was thinking.

[1800] well death penalty is one for me too okay but also probably abortion i'm sure at some point okay pro life yeah as like a young person though so it's harder it's hard i've only been an adult for a couple years oh let's talk about this because Kristen and i had a juicy conversation the other night this is real dangerous but um let's do it the pro life pro choice um debate in the country to me is about the the least bridgible topic we have.

[1801] There's really no compromise, which is really disconcerting.

[1802] The hottest button, perhaps.

[1803] It is.

[1804] And just what's really troubling about it is, you know neither side can be happy with the compromise, you know, and that's just, again, I have a certain position on it, but it's not to say that I don't feel for the people who are pro -life or want them to be happy as well.

[1805] I found myself saying this.

[1806] So I think it's unrealistic to imagine that young teenage people with tons of new chemicals in their brains and hormones are going to be thinking correctly and making great choices all the time.

[1807] I just think that's a very unrealistic expectation.

[1808] But I have to say, knowing that there's no solution, right, that there's no compromise that both sides are going to be happy with.

[1809] I did think, God, is there any movement on my side?

[1810] Is there anything that I could concede on the pro -choice side?

[1811] And what I thought was this morning after pill, what's it called Plan B?

[1812] Now, I think it's too much to expect young people to be always making the right decisions while drunk at a party in 15.

[1813] I don't know that I think it's too much to expect them to go get the Plan B pill the next day.

[1814] I don't know that that's an expectation that we can't have of young people.

[1815] And of course, it would require a huge evolution in dispensing that medicine.

[1816] It would have to be available at schools.

[1817] Yep.

[1818] No questions asked.

[1819] Yep.

[1820] That might be really hard.

[1821] Parents might object to that.

[1822] But I have to say just in looking for some solution that neither side is going to be happy with, it did occur to me. I don't even know that I supported or don't, but it did occur to me. Oh, my God, that actually.

[1823] could be a movement in that direction.

[1824] Abortion has been rendered obsolete a little bit because of that pill.

[1825] I mean, that is the more gruesome of the options at your disposal.

[1826] If you become pregnant, you don't want to carry the baby to term.

[1827] It's much easier and probably healthier to take that pill the next day.

[1828] Yeah, I think the problem is you do have to take it.

[1829] I don't know enough about the plan B pill to speak knowledgeably on it.

[1830] They might be a sponsor at some point, so let's be careful.

[1831] No, I have nothing bad to say about it other than you have to take it in a time frame.

[1832] Okay.

[1833] But again, and again, you're right.

[1834] I don't know the side effects of the pills, so I don't know if it's bad to take it all the time.

[1835] But, yes, kids won't realize they're pregnant quite often until later in the game.

[1836] But is it an unrealistic expectation just to go like, hey man, you have sex in high school.

[1837] You got to take that thing the next day.

[1838] Yeah, I don't know.

[1839] I don't know if there are lasting effects from taking it.

[1840] I don't know how often you can take it.

[1841] If there are no side effects or no problems, sure.

[1842] Everyone should be taking it every morning, I guess, with their breakfast.

[1843] Well, not if they didn't have sex the night before.

[1844] But, yeah, but kids, not just kids, adults, young adults who aren't ready to have children.

[1845] Yeah, people in general had sex and it was unprotected.

[1846] They should take that pill the next day.

[1847] And it would have to be more than just schools and your doctor's office.

[1848] It would have to be, you should be able to walk into any doctor's office, any clinic anywhere, yes, and get it for free.

[1849] Yeah.

[1850] That would be a lot cheaper.

[1851] Before you say, oh, that's a welfare thing, it would be a lot cheaper.

[1852] A lot of these, no, I know you wouldn't, but some people will say, oh, we don't have to pay for people's birth control.

[1853] Right.

[1854] The issue with people saying that you don't have to pay for people's birth control, albeit it's a fine statement in and of itself, it does deny the reality of our medical system, which is we don't deny people care.

[1855] So that statement does make sense and would hold up if we had a country that denied people medical care.

[1856] So if you could go to an emergency room and they say, get the fuck out of here, you don't have insurance, then yes, that statement makes sense.

[1857] But acknowledging that we don't deny care and that we will end up paying for it at some point down the line, then you have to get a little pragmatic about.

[1858] what the cost of treating things in an emergency room versus treating things preemptively.

[1859] Yeah.

[1860] I think a lot of people who are pro -life believe at the moment of conception that is a human.

[1861] And so the plan B pill is still for them would not be an option.

[1862] Okay.

[1863] It's still, it's the same effect.

[1864] Okay.

[1865] So maybe this isn't a compromise.

[1866] I don't know if it is.

[1867] I wish there was a compromise.

[1868] I, The reason that it's troubling to me that this divide exists is because if I were pro -life, that would be the most important topic for me. That would be the most important thing to vote for if I were pro -life.

[1869] And so I would then kind of be forced to choose whatever candidate was pro -life.

[1870] I'd have to prioritize that over all other issues, which would be very fair.

[1871] And so what I don't like is that it limits people's voting.

[1872] to that one issue, but I understand it, and I'm sympathetic to it.

[1873] I don't agree with it.

[1874] So I would like to figure out a way where we can make that not a single issue voting thing.

[1875] Here is my problem.

[1876] I can fully understand the mentality of being pro -life.

[1877] I very much understand that.

[1878] But what I don't understand is in the same party, in the same candidate you are voting, for their pro -life and their cut social programming, cut welfare, cut all of the things that are going to help that baby that you sort of forced to be born to live a good, happy, successful, opportunistic life.

[1879] Yeah.

[1880] It's very.

[1881] It seems contradictory.

[1882] It's very contradictory.

[1883] And that's my problem.

[1884] I don't feel this way, but I understand it.

[1885] I do understand it.

[1886] It doesn't, it's not that I can't find.

[1887] the logic in the argument.

[1888] I can.

[1889] I just disagree with it.

[1890] They're not guaranteeing you anything.

[1891] By being born in the U .S., you're not guaranteed health care.

[1892] You're not guaranteed food.

[1893] You're not guaranteed anything.

[1894] You are guaranteed a life.

[1895] That's what they'd say.

[1896] You have a right to your life.

[1897] You don't have a right to any services after that point.

[1898] Again, I don't agree with that, but that's a sound argument is that you are guaranteed to a life.

[1899] You're constitutionally guaranteed your life.

[1900] You're not constitutionally guaranteed food, medicine, anything beyond that point.

[1901] Okay.

[1902] Yeah.

[1903] So it's not illogical.

[1904] I just don't agree with it.

[1905] It is illogical when you start thinking about what is the purpose of life to just have a body in existence.

[1906] If that's living, then I guess that's fine.

[1907] But that doesn't make.

[1908] But that person might then say, yes, they do deserve all that stuff, but they should be finding that through the church or through an organization.

[1909] It's not the government's role to be providing that stuff.

[1910] So maybe they might even go, I do agree with you, they should have an education.

[1911] They should have food and medical.

[1912] But that's something that a church has to provide or some philanthropic.

[1913] organization.

[1914] It's not the U .S. government's role.

[1915] Again, I don't agree with that, but I can see, I don't think it makes that person a psychopath.

[1916] Well, a 16 -year -old girl who doesn't know she's pregnant and is drinking and is doing whatever 16 -year -old girls do and this Well, let's go to the worst example because it's easier to defend.

[1917] Let's say the 16 -year -old's raped, which happens all the time.

[1918] Right.

[1919] But that's, that's not.

[1920] not really my point.

[1921] Oh, okay, I'm sorry.

[1922] That's okay.

[1923] If this child is not taking care of the baby in the womb and the baby is not entitled to a life of, you know, potentially fetal alcohol syndrome or disabilities or these things, that baby is now, that person is now forced into that.

[1924] The baby is now going to have medical issues.

[1925] And that party, generally speaking, is not for adding more money into the health care system, any of these things.

[1926] That's going to help that person survive actual life.

[1927] Right.

[1928] I bet that those people would say while that 16 -year -old's pregnant, they don't have the right to party.

[1929] But they may not know.

[1930] They're 16.

[1931] 16 -year -olds are dumb.

[1932] Right, but I think that the person that was pro -life would say you're ignoring a solution, which is, yes, I'm asking that person for nine months of their life to give up their rights because they're growing another human being, right?

[1933] So once it's alerted that they're pregnant, yes, they have to be supervisor, or they have to pee into a cup, or they have to be monitored, or they have to go someplace that's funded by the government so that they can healthily grow up.

[1934] the baby in their belly.

[1935] You know, they would probably say, yeah, it blows for the 16 year old.

[1936] It's going to be nine months of their life and that sucks.

[1937] But that's just you're going to have to, you know, you got pregnant and now you're going to, sorry, nine months of your life, you're going to have to grow this thing healthy.

[1938] And then you can do whatever you want after you give birth.

[1939] I imagine that's what they would say.

[1940] Right.

[1941] Again, I don't agree.

[1942] I don't agree with it.

[1943] And it costs a lot of money to do that properly.

[1944] And I bet they'd be fine with spending that money to get babies out healthy.

[1945] No. They are not for adding more funding into the health care system and insurance, no. Even for nine -month windows, well.

[1946] Yeah, that's the whole Jimmy.

[1947] That's Jimmy Kimmel's whole thing right now with the children, the Health Care Act and all that stuff.

[1948] Yeah.

[1949] Anyway, I must have to go.

[1950] Oh, shit.

[1951] Okay.

[1952] So we're all done with the fact check.

[1953] Obviously, there was less than normal because Katie is so knowledgeable on all her facts.

[1954] She is right.

[1955] She didn't fuck up at all.

[1956] And she was smart enough.

[1957] on the fly if she was questionable.

[1958] She would check before she spoke, which is really admirable.

[1959] Thank you for your healthy, respectful debate, Monica.

[1960] I always appreciate it.

[1961] And I love everyone.

[1962] Me too.

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