Barack Obama

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert on Spotify for the first time.

[1] First episode on Spotify and we got a biggie.

[2] I know we told everyone nothing would change, but unfortunately we're going by new names.

[3] I'm Brent Lancaster and I'm joined by, could you introduce yourself, ma 'am?

[4] Christina Markle.

[5] Oh, Christina Markle.

[6] I don't like, yes, yes, yes, related to Megan.

[7] But I don't like to draft on her fame.

[8] Oh, that's why you've been going by Monica Padman.

[9] Yeah.

[10] Well, that makes a ton of sense now.

[11] Yep.

[12] Well, at any rate, we're so excited to be here.

[13] And with the most spectacular episode, we're so grateful for, of course, President Barack Hussein Obama.

[14] Oh, my goodness.

[15] What a stud.

[16] What a ding, ding, ding.

[17] So without further ado, welcome to Spotify and please enjoy President Barack Obama.

[18] Wonderie Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[19] Now, join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[20] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[21] He's an object square.

[22] Where's the other guy?

[23] Yeah, he's coming.

[24] He's coming.

[25] Lanky guy I heard about you.

[26] Well, shit.

[27] Rob, just give it back to me, I guess.

[28] I was attempting to print out my notes so I wasn't holding a computer awkwardly because I want to impress you.

[29] And then you were late.

[30] And then I was laid on top of it.

[31] So it all backfired.

[32] How are you?

[33] I'm good.

[34] How are you?

[35] So good.

[36] We're so excited.

[37] We got really excited.

[38] When you read the question I had written to you, there was a lot of fanfare here at home.

[39] It was quite exciting.

[40] We should start with that.

[41] That took a turn.

[42] Yes.

[43] You'll like this, I hope.

[44] My wife has this amazing knack because she's much more attractive than me and more appealing, just in general.

[45] Me too.

[46] We're going to bond on this.

[47] So I was so excited.

[48] I said to her, oh my gosh, President Obama is going to read a question.

[49] of mine.

[50] She's like, oh, that's so great.

[51] Then I go to watch the response.

[52] And of course, the first six minutes is all about your love for her.

[53] And if I'm being fully honest with you, you didn't even answer the question.

[54] I actually asked.

[55] So it was just the prototypical experience being married to Kristen.

[56] I hope she appreciated it.

[57] It was entirely sincere.

[58] Oh, that was clear, president.

[59] That was quite clear that you loved her.

[60] And I said to her, it's not certain whether he knew about me before this question.

[61] I think you probably just knew I was married to her.

[62] Yeah, you know, I googled you, you know.

[63] Monica, how are you doing?

[64] How did you end up?

[65] In the family?

[66] Yeah.

[67] How did you end up next to him in that big lounge chair that he has?

[68] Yellow Joybird chair.

[69] Shout out Joybird.

[70] I started babysitting for them years ago.

[71] And then I clawed my way to the top of the castle.

[72] I started assisting for Kristen once the kids went to preschool.

[73] Can I interject?

[74] We discovered quickly that Monica was a genius and that she had been in comedy for years and was a great writer.

[75] So she started taking over writing for Kristen and running Kristen's life.

[76] And then as a hobby, Monica and I argue about every single thing under the sun.

[77] We rarely see eye to eye and we found it entertaining and we thought this could be a good show, us arguing.

[78] It used to be fun and now it's destructive.

[79] Yes, it's taking a toll on us.

[80] All right.

[81] Well, listen, I'm ready to dive in if we haven't already done.

[82] Oh, we've dove.

[83] ABR, always be recording.

[84] Okay, so I hate to do this to you, but I'm actually going to go back to the question I asked you.

[85] Okay, so I think you interpreted as me asking, in the absence of a father, did you find yourself searching for male role models?

[86] But that actually wasn't my question.

[87] My question was, did you seek that mail approval from peers?

[88] My dad's play, and just whenever there were guys around, I was like, yeah, what's the definition?

[89] How do I do it?

[90] Yes, I'll do all of it.

[91] You know, it's interesting.

[92] And I wrote about this that when I look back on my high school friendships, you know, because that's when you really start thinking about this stuff, all my best friends from high school came from broken homes.

[93] and what I realized was, I think, that we all kind of formed our own little tribe because we didn't have clarity about, okay, you're following that path.

[94] That's how your dad does things.

[95] That's how you're going to do things.

[96] So, you know, I'm not sure that I'd say that we were all looking for approval, but I think there was this element of we've got to figure it out on our own.

[97] And, you know, in some cases, it was pretty typical stuff, like, you know, what's this whole opposite sex thing, you know?

[98] Like, sure, sure.

[99] How does that work?

[100] A lot of it was sports.

[101] I played basketball and, you know, the obsession with sports and balls and running around and sort of physical dominance.

[102] That comes to play a part in it.

[103] I think it was a little bit different for me because I was growing up in Hawaii.

[104] there weren't that many black kids around.

[105] And later in high school, we had a few more.

[106] They were mostly older than me who befriended me. And most of the African -Americans in Hawaii were in the military.

[107] And so I'd go out to these military bases where there were parties.

[108] And that had to do with issues of racial identity.

[109] But among my friend group, you know, you had white guys, part Hawaiian guys, part Filipino guys.

[110] And so I had, in addition to trying to figure out, How do you become a man and we're all confused and don't know what we're doing?

[111] In that setting, I had this added thing where I also had to figure out what was mean to be a black man in America.

[112] So there, a lot of it was pop culture.

[113] Now, I'm dating myself.

[114] I'm a lot older than you guys, but it's like Shaft or, again, sports figures were really important.

[115] You know, Muhammad Ali or basketball players like Dr. Jay.

[116] And so you end up like, well, should I dress like that?

[117] Should I get the big afro?

[118] Do I need the leather jacket that kind of, you know, goes down to your knees thing?

[119] Yeah, I say yes.

[120] You know, it's 80 degrees outside.

[121] I'm not sure that's going to work.

[122] But I do think that the basic idea of trying to raise yourself, figure out what's your code, what's the right way to live, when you don't have an obvious template in your house, then you have to do more work.

[123] And it's kind of trial by error.

[124] And sometimes you end up looking stupid.

[125] And you have to kind of deal with it.

[126] Yeah.

[127] So I don't have a single friend from childhood that's not of a divorced home.

[128] I think we all got attracted to each other.

[129] And for me, in particular with my best friend, Aaron, we were giving each other everything.

[130] That's very masculine what you're doing.

[131] This is, yeah, do more of that.

[132] Ride a wheelie.

[133] Jumping.

[134] that thing, light that on fire.

[135] But, I mean, those were the cancerous elements of it.

[136] But I have to say there was also this crazy safe space to be vulnerable with one another because we were the only outlet in this trusted relationship because the rest of it just seemed like wolves.

[137] Like all the guys seem like if we show any fear, any vulnerability, we're dead.

[138] And so I think I enjoyed being with kids who also didn't have dads because somehow I think we filled in each other's gaps a little bit.

[139] Do you think you had some really close relationships like that?

[140] Yeah, I like what you're describing there.

[141] And by the way, for me, I don't know how it turned out with you.

[142] But, you know, let's say we had a group of seven, eight guys who were part of our little wolf pack.

[143] Three of them are still some of my closest friends.

[144] And I do think that sense that you could let down your guard, there was a sense of humor about it.

[145] Like you could tease each other about, you know, if you really bombed out at a dance, you know, kind of walk across the gym floor and ask the girl to dance and she turns you down and you got to walk all the way back across the gym floor.

[146] At least you think every eye is looking at you and you got a big loser L on your forehead.

[147] You know, and you'd get back and the guys would be like, oh, man. And they'd rib you, but there was also that sense of, yeah, look, that could have easily been me and joke about it.

[148] And there was a kindness there that sometimes is harder among men.

[149] Kindness is weakness.

[150] Yeah.

[151] And I think you're right that within that group, that's part of the reason we stayed friends even until now.

[152] Those are the guys I can still say, man, this thing really kicked my ass.

[153] And they can draw on that history of trust that you might not have with somebody else.

[154] Yeah, the moment you're describing of walking back from the failure is such a visceral feeling for me. And it's, Those girls are so upset right now, by the way.

[155] They're so sad they didn't say yes.

[156] But what makes the whole thing tolerable is the walk back where your friends are looking at you and you start smiling because you all know.

[157] Oh my God, that was so embarrassing.

[158] And then now we're sharing this thing.

[159] And it's like the mirror neurons like we've all been there.

[160] Oh my God, we suck.

[161] This is great.

[162] It's like the safety net.

[163] That fun embarrassing.

[164] You know that, you know, you're not alone in the process.

[165] No, no, no, no. And ultimately, you know, look, I just have finished raising two teenagers.

[166] Sasha's about to turn 20, and Malia's about to turn 23.

[167] But when they were teenagers, I just used to always tell them, listen, nobody knows what they're doing.

[168] Everybody's completely confused.

[169] All the kids who look like they know what they're doing, I promise you, they don't.

[170] And the worst thing is, if you don't have good friends who you trust and you, can share and laugh with, that's when kids get in trouble, right?

[171] That's when they really feel alone because now they feel like they have to put on a front for everybody all the time.

[172] Well, you had to have experienced that.

[173] Well, first, I just want to quickly say, do you think you got more sway over those girls because of your accomplishments?

[174] Like, do you think they were more inclined to listen to you or just...

[175] Absolutely not.

[176] Okay, good.

[177] I'm glad to hear them because I'm having the experience where they don't care at all.

[178] No, you're never a profit in your own land.

[179] In fact, I am generally the brunt of every joke in my household, right?

[180] So, Michelle, she's the top dog because they're scared of her.

[181] They should be.

[182] You know, Michelle always says that you have to have at least one parent who the kids think is a little bit crazy and might actually kill you.

[183] Plausible threat of death.

[184] They know that I'm all bark and no real bite.

[185] So as a consequence, what happens is at the dinner table, the three of them just mock me constantly about, you know, my big ears or my weird habits or fashion sense or if I mispronounce the name of some hip -hop star that Sasha's been listening to.

[186] They all go like, what a idiot, you know.

[187] So that's basically the vibe in my house.

[188] Well, my two daughters are, they're judges on a makeover show, and I'm the result.

[189] So they basically just scanned me at all times and pointed, Dad, you're like, we were in Hawaii on vacation a month ago and just one of them came over and just grabbed a hunk of my belly.

[190] Just to let me know she saw.

[191] Big hunk hanging over.

[192] Thanks, hon. Did she do that publicly?

[193] Like, did people see?

[194] Of course, on a beach.

[195] Yes, yes, yes.

[196] So there's just like a big jelly roll right in a fist.

[197] I was having a nice time until then.

[198] Okay, so I had that in Detroit and then I moved to Santa Barbara.

[199] And I was so fucking lonely for a year and so, lost and could not find that and was terribly lonely.

[200] But now in retrospect, I have to say it was the birth of me committing to comedy, the birth of me starting to write prolific.

[201] Like all the things actually came out of me being very uncomfortable and lonely.

[202] Did that happen to you when you went to Occidental?

[203] Yeah.

[204] Well, there was a little bit of a delay.

[205] So I go to Occidental College in L .A. And for the first two years, I'm just kind of partying.

[206] Yeah.

[207] There we go.

[208] You know, running around and I end up making a couple of close friends, but a lot of it was just kinetic energy and hoping that nobody notices that I don't know what I'm doing or who I am or why I'm there.

[209] What happens then is about two years in, I'd had this kind of secret life, like I'd been reading books and stuff and trying to get a little more serious, but I didn't want to let on to people that this was happening.

[210] It's weak.

[211] And I sort of realized, you know what, I've got to go inward.

[212] I've got to do some work to figure out what really is important to me. What I'm doing with my friends only takes me so far.

[213] One of the things I also described to my daughters is the fact that everybody grows at their own pace, right?

[214] And so when you're in high school, you kind of don't worry about it.

[215] But when you leave that comfortable environment and now you're in college, or you're on your own, what you start noticing is, well, you know, some people, they want to keep partying for a while.

[216] And that's how they're built.

[217] They haven't gotten to that point yet where they've outgrown that.

[218] You know, and we've all had those awkward moments, at least I did, where, you know, it's like, yeah, dude, I actually think I should do some homework here.

[219] And everybody's like, what?

[220] Man, you know, you're changing and, you know, you've become boring.

[221] And, you know, so more of that was starting to happen.

[222] So I transferred to Columbus.

[223] So I transferred to in New York, partly because I realized I've got to do this work, but it's harder if I'm staying with people who've seen me in a different mode.

[224] And then for two years, I just lived like a monk.

[225] I was terribly lonely.

[226] And I kind of became this humorless guy who's just reading Nietzsche and Malcolm X. And I had two plates and one towel.

[227] And if they wanted to go to a bar, we'd go and I'd start lecturing about capitalism.

[228] oppression and all that.

[229] And everybody's like, dude, we just wanted to hang out and talk about the Knicks or something, right?

[230] This is such a drag.

[231] Why don't you go home?

[232] So I had to go through that phase.

[233] And I think that we all do.

[234] You reacting and responding to your environment and trying to prove yourself and trying to fit in and get status.

[235] At some point, if you want to grow up and become an adult, you have to go inward and figure out what's important to me. What do I care about?

[236] What do I believe in?

[237] what's worth me working hard for, what's worth me sacrificing for.

[238] You have to start asking some questions of yourself about how did I end up being the person I am?

[239] How did my parents shape me?

[240] You've got to kind of be able to do the work to know yourself.

[241] And that can be a lonely process.

[242] It's not something that you can do as a group precisely because everybody is going to be doing that kind of at a different pace.

[243] and everybody's dealing with different demons and different hangups.

[244] This is where I'm going to do my big excavation.

[245] This is where it's going to get uncomfortable.

[246] I love Promised Land.

[247] I've been devouring it for the last week and a half.

[248] I absolutely love it.

[249] I relate on so many of these issues.

[250] I think primarily the single mother, stepdad's, moving.

[251] Yeah.

[252] You explore the fallout of the dad going so much in your first book.

[253] And then, you know, it's referenced.

[254] Yeah.

[255] But there's a lot of mom stuff, I think, there that I'm curious about.

[256] So one thing is, you explain the drug use.

[257] By the way, I was an epic drug user, now sober, but also partied like a motherfucker.

[258] So there's twofold.

[259] One was running from feelings I didn't like, which you said, you know, you kind of explain that with your identity stuff.

[260] But I think I have to imagine, because we share this, you were the golden child, right?

[261] Your mother knew you were the greatest thing to ever live.

[262] Same here.

[263] I'm the golden child.

[264] My siblings hate me. Two things.

[265] Gave me confidence.

[266] I'm here because of it.

[267] Thank God.

[268] But the pressure was enormous.

[269] And I'm going to argue to you that the reason you left Occidental was there's the mom's voice in your head going, this is not what you're supposed to do.

[270] This dualistic personality you can develop, or at least I developed with this adoring mother.

[271] And then this lack of male approval where I have two identities, one where I'm a fucking animal and one where I've got to like save the world.

[272] It's daunting.

[273] Was that, was it her?

[274] No, look, I write about this.

[275] I mean, you know, she was very insistent that I was destined for some great endeavor.

[276] And part of it was that she had a strained relationship with her father, my grandfather, who was somebody who had all kinds of fantasies about what he was going to do, but never did him.

[277] And so I ended up at the end of his life being kind of disappointed with himself and bitter about that in some ways.

[278] And it created strains between him and my grandmother and my mom.

[279] So the thing she wanted absolutely to make sure of was that I didn't end up like my grandfather.

[280] And she'd lecture me when I was taking my time on college applications about, you know, you're not just some good time Charlie, right?

[281] Which is kind of very, very Kansas expression, you know.

[282] I think that terms in the book of AA written in the 30s.

[283] Yeah.

[284] So yeah, there was something.

[285] I wanted to prove to an absent father, and there was something that you wanted to live up to with your present mom.

[286] And, you know, you never really completely get over that.

[287] There's always going to be that element that drives you.

[288] If you are perfectly well -adjusted, you generally don't do the kinds of stuff that ends up attracting notice for good or for ill. You do something that's a little more conventional.

[289] and there's no doubt that my mother's voice in the back of my head was both a spur.

[290] That kind of unconditional love is also, though, what gets you through where you've screwed up and you're not living up to what you thought you might live up to or you've disappointed yourself in some fashion.

[291] Having in the back of your mind, oh, you're still fantastic.

[292] You'll be fine.

[293] Yeah, yeah.

[294] These are just youthful mistakes that you've been.

[295] made.

[296] That's also important.

[297] I mean, that's part of what the gift we give our kids is that sense that you count for something.

[298] And there's somebody in the world who thinks you're special.

[299] We had this, Malia has a close friend who we've known.

[300] They grew up together.

[301] And this is a couple years ago when they'd come back from college.

[302] And Malia brought her friend over for dinner.

[303] And we were just talking.

[304] And she said, yeah, it's great being home.

[305] First of all, there's always food in the refrigerator, which is amazing.

[306] And there's, like, fruit that actually is, you know, you can eat.

[307] Nourishing.

[308] Right.

[309] But then she said, yeah, and the other thing is you come back and, like, your parents listen to what you say and they actually think what you're saying is brilliant.

[310] You don't realize until you leave the house that not everybody else thinks they're all that smart.

[311] No one's going to give a shit about how you feel the day.

[312] I'm the only person on planet Earth that cares.

[313] Yes.

[314] So that's part of what we give our kids.

[315] And there's no doubt that's part of what my mom gave me. So she died tragically.

[316] Yeah, really young.

[317] Yeah.

[318] So did you have a fantasy or an illusion?

[319] And maybe this didn't come to pass because she did die before you did this.

[320] But did you have in your mind some fantasy that if you were to become president and you did the ultimate thing you could finally take the yoke off and go like, oh, I did all the shit I was supposed to do to be perfect.

[321] and now I'm going to do whatever I want.

[322] Yeah, you know, I got to say, Dax, like I didn't feel that kind of pressure from her.

[323] I mean, I think some of that probably has more to do with my absent dad.

[324] Uh -huh.

[325] I felt I had to prove to her or live up to her expectations of me being a good man. Uh -huh, uh -huh.

[326] But it wasn't like, you know, she wasn't like a stage mom who was, you know.

[327] No. Come on, man. Why haven't you gotten on the Supreme?

[328] Court yet.

[329] Smile!

[330] Smile!

[331] Yeah, exactly.

[332] You know, it wasn't that vibe.

[333] With her, it was much more, are you trying hard?

[334] Are you putting an effort?

[335] Are you useful?

[336] Are you treating people kindly?

[337] Are you responsible?

[338] It was more homespun kind of stuff.

[339] So by the time, let's say a year or two before she passed away, where she kind of had a sense of who I'd become and I was 30 by then.

[340] I wasn't some big success in the sense of, you know, I'd gotten through law school.

[341] I had a job at a civil rights firm.

[342] I hadn't even run for elected office yet.

[343] I'd been a community organizer.

[344] Editor of the Harvard Law Review, you had some feathers in the cab.

[345] Oh, no, no, no. Yeah.

[346] But I guess what I'm saying is, is that at that point, what she had confidence in, I think, was, you know what, the guy's a responsible adult.

[347] He's not a jerk.

[348] Yeah.

[349] He cares about people.

[350] I'm proud of him as a person.

[351] I had kind of met the threshold there.

[352] And I didn't feel like I don't get to be president by the time I'm 45.

[353] She's really going to be disappointed.

[354] It was never that from her.

[355] That was much more internal.

[356] And that's why I say I think it probably has more to do with me and my relationship to an absent father, I suspect.

[357] Do you think this constant search for identity, even going to the basketball, games and should I wear my hair like that?

[358] Should I do this?

[359] Do you think that ultimately taught you how to be universally appealing?

[360] We talked to Oprah the other day.

[361] I can't believe I just said that, but we did.

[362] Way to name drop there, Monica.

[363] I know, I know.

[364] Let me pick that up.

[365] But I thought the same thing.

[366] Like, I had that.

[367] Like, I had a lot of searching for identity as like an Indian girl in Georgia.

[368] And I just like learned how to adapt to everyone around me. Yes.

[369] There's no doubt not only that it helped shape my personality and how I interact in the world, but it shaped my politics.

[370] Yeah.

[371] My mom is from Kansas.

[372] My father is from Kenya.

[373] It is hard to find two more different places on earth.

[374] I grew up in Hawaii.

[375] And Indonesia.

[376] And Indonesia.

[377] And my sister is half Indonesian.

[378] And her kids are half Chinese.

[379] You're a punchline to an 80s joke.

[380] I just don't know what the setup is.

[381] No, I don't.

[382] Right.

[383] Right.

[384] So, you know, the ex -president walks into a bar.

[385] But by necessity, you learn to translate between different cultures.

[386] Like, Monica, I don't know if your second generation, so your parents were first generation.

[387] But if they were, then by necessity, you go home and you got doll cooking and you got cousins calling up and all that stuff, right?

[388] But that's going to be different than when you show up at school and in Georgia.

[389] And you've got to figure out how to translate that and find a running thread between those worlds.

[390] And there's no doubt that that was a central part of me figuring out, how do I integrate all these different pieces of myself into a whole?

[391] I don't want to deny these different pieces of myself.

[392] I don't want to feel as if I have to occupy just one side or another, live in one world or another.

[393] But in the world, those various components of yourself are, in fact, divided.

[394] Exactly.

[395] The classic example, as you walk into the cafeteria, and the black kids are sitting on one side and white kids are sitting on the other side.

[396] I don't know if you had enough Indian kids in your school to...

[397] Oh, I wanted to be so white.

[398] She was the captain of the white table.

[399] I did the opposite thing.

[400] I did not try to blend.

[401] I was like, that's not me. Right.

[402] I'm not that weird foreign person.

[403] Yes, exactly.

[404] And look, that happens to a lot of black kids, too, if they're growing up in predominantly white environments.

[405] I think partly because I'd grown up in Hawaii, I was more sensitive or suspicious of that strategy.

[406] The idea that I'm just going to integrate into that world didn't feel right.

[407] But that's part of the reason why, for me at least, Once I got out of school, I attribute a lot of my decision to become a community organizer, to move to the south side of Chicago, to work in predominantly African -American low -income communities, was not only had I been inspired by the civil rights movement, but what I realized was, look, somehow, if I'm going to make myself fit together, my work has to be figuring out how do we make an America that fits together.

[408] And that needs to be part of my journey is this process of how do we perfect our union a little bit more.

[409] How do we make it less divided?

[410] And I also think that it was important for me to immerse myself in an African -American community on the mainland so that coming out of it, now I felt whole.

[411] It was like, all right, I've hung out with the Kansas mom and grandparents.

[412] I've got these amazing, loving relationships in urban Chicago.

[413] I've gotten to know and been known by people in all these worlds.

[414] And if I can make smaller communities of mine work, then maybe I can be part of trying to make our larger community work.

[415] I've got to say the apex of that for me, I was watching you on the barbershop, where you're looking at like the most prototypical hyper -masculine, phenom of physical ability, LeBron.

[416] You have hip -hop artists.

[417] I mean, these are all like cornerstones, of black culture and then the dude with the most swagger in the conversation was you and i was like that's a level of confidence i aspired to well that partly because i was not on the court next to lebrun i'll tell you you know one of the perks of being president is basically you know you can invite people to the white house they show up yeah yeah yeah so for my 49th birthday we had a all -star game that was just kind of for us.

[418] Oh, that's great.

[419] LeBron came and Dwayne Wade and Derek Rose, who was from Chicago, and we had all these amazing NBA players, and then each team had three NBA players and two amateurs.

[420] So all my high school friends I was just talking about, they came over.

[421] Oh, fun.

[422] Oh, wow.

[423] That's a simulation moment.

[424] Yeah, exactly.

[425] And so we had this round -robin tournament, and we had these wounded warriors who we invited to watch and we signed autographs and gave shoes away afterwards.

[426] But having LeBron suddenly like guard you, this mountain of a human, you never feel so small and weak when he suddenly is just picking you up full court.

[427] You just pass the ball or hand it to him.

[428] Say here.

[429] You can have it.

[430] I'm not worthy.

[431] Yeah.

[432] You know, it's funny is there's a scene in your book promise land where you are trying to get the endorsement of I think some firefighters so you're playing a game of pickup and a guy on your staff is like insanely good and you're whispering to him like hey we can win but let's not humiliate him we need their endorsement do you think this conversation happened behind your back like do you think lebron pulled someone aside said hey we can win but don't embarrass the president no no no no look it is it is a given that they were all playing at half speed not even three -quarter speed so that's a good But as I said, sports was this central part of my life, even though I was never as talented enough.

[433] I figured out pretty early I was not going to be an NBA player.

[434] But I will say this, team sports at least, at its best, is a great equalizer.

[435] You know, now in high school, you know, our sports teams, there were the coaches' favorites and, you know, there were some politics behind the scenes of the kid, the wealthy benefactor who somehow got a little more playing time than they deserved.

[436] and there's some nepotism and patriarchy working, et cetera.

[437] But basically, when you were on the court, it was like, how did you play rather than who you were?

[438] And it's interesting, my daughters were both involved in sports.

[439] They didn't aspire to be Serena, but there was that sense of team sports at its best can give kids that sense of being part of something that's bigger than themselves and teach them to work hard and deal with disappointment It's a meritocracy, though.

[440] You're good or you're not, you know?

[441] Exactly.

[442] And so I kept on playing basketball all through the presidency.

[443] I quit right at the end because I was getting to the point where I was definitely the worst player on the floor.

[444] I was a little too proud.

[445] And I also didn't want to blow out my Achilles tendon.

[446] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[447] We've all been there.

[448] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers and strange rashes.

[449] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[450] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[451] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[452] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[453] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[454] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[455] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[456] What's up, guys?

[457] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[458] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[459] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[460] And I don't mean just friends.

[461] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[462] The list goes on.

[463] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[464] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[465] We got to bring this out.

[466] We have to.

[467] So if you're anything like me, I don't want to be recognized for any of the things I'm good at.

[468] I actually just want to be recognized for these things I wish I was great at.

[469] So knowing you love basketball was the greatest moment of your whole life on the campaign trail.

[470] With Biden.

[471] President Biden's.

[472] And you picked up the ball and just drained a three, just so casually.

[473] And then it made the rounds on all the outlets.

[474] Was that your greatest moment?

[475] Well, you know, at the risk of not sounding artificially humble, I mean, the truth is that I had hit some shots like that before.

[476] Okay, okay.

[477] So the first time I campaigned, I took my first foreign.

[478] trip.

[479] And we went to Afghanistan and Iraq.

[480] And before going into Iraq, we staged at Kuwait.

[481] And I walked into a gym with like 3 ,000 troops in shirt sleeves.

[482] And one of the soldiers tossed me a basketball and said, let's see your jumper.

[483] Uh -huh.

[484] And CNN was recording it.

[485] And there was nothing but net, brother.

[486] Oh, baby.

[487] Oh, baby.

[488] So you've been down this road before.

[489] Okay.

[490] Yes.

[491] This was not a unique moment.

[492] I hit the big shots.

[493] That's what I do.

[494] Like Jordan and North Carolina.

[495] Like Jordan and North Carolina.

[496] Yeah, we got in a big fight about this.

[497] I was critical of you.

[498] I was like, you can't look that cool while you're trying to help your buddy Biden.

[499] And then Biden was, he just had to go like, great shot.

[500] And I was like, and I said, that's fine.

[501] He liked it.

[502] You guys are best friends.

[503] Yeah, Joe and our buddies.

[504] No, he was basically on a date.

[505] He was on a date in front of this dream girl and you did that.

[506] No, listen, you know, the best part of that shot was if you go back and you look at the video, there's a young woman in a mask who's under the basket and she's the one who gave me the pass.

[507] Yeah.

[508] That is Joe Biden's granddaughter, Maisie Biden, who was one of Sasha.

[509] as best friends and still is growing up because they went to the same school and I coached those girls when I was president the Vipers in their fourth grade rec league team and Macy was like the Lebron of the league.

[510] I mean she dominated she was great you know and we went undefeated the Vipers ruled so things went full circle part of the reason Joe didn't mind was because his granddaughter.

[511] She got an assist.

[512] She got the assist.

[513] She dropped the time, man. Yeah, she did.

[514] She put it right in your hands.

[515] She did.

[516] It was right there, and all I had to do was just finish.

[517] Oh, my God.

[518] It's so funny.

[519] Okay, one thing I wanted to talk about, I've been projecting too much, but I'm going to try one more tact with it.

[520] Was there a weight of being the eldest male with this single mother?

[521] I felt at times for me I was a partner.

[522] Yes.

[523] there's no doubt that, you know, you grow up with a single mom.

[524] It's probably more acute if you're male and you're the oldest.

[525] That sense pretty early on that, all right, I've got to be the proverbial man of the house.

[526] That's right, yeah.

[527] And I think that that sense of responsibility kind of carries over.

[528] And there are times where it can make you insufferable.

[529] I mean, if you talk to my sister who is nine years younger than me, when I think back, Because she was nine years younger, you think about it.

[530] I'm like 21 and she's 12, right?

[531] And I'm like, turn off the TV.

[532] You need to be doing your homework.

[533] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[534] She probably suffered from me being overbearing in certain ways.

[535] And because she's a wonderful person, she has forgiven me. It was probably good practice for me being a dad.

[536] By the time my daughters came along, I could kind of remember, don't be so bossy all the time.

[537] But, yeah, but there was also a weight to it, that sense of, all right, I got to handle my business.

[538] Certainly, at minimum, you didn't want to be the burden.

[539] Yeah.

[540] With all the stuff your mom was dealing with, you didn't want to also then be the person that she's having to deal with and clean up after.

[541] We were interviewing Common, Chicago Native.

[542] Another name drop.

[543] Another name drop, common.

[544] Good guy.

[545] Great guy.

[546] And he and I were bonding over having commitment issues.

[547] And I said to him, do you think it is all possible?

[548] that having already experienced the weight of being someone's partner before you necessarily chose to, that in future relationships, it was a little daunting.

[549] And when I read in your book, A Promise Land, that Michelle initially wanted to get married and you were hesitant.

[550] And of course, Michelle is a brilliant bombshell smoke show.

[551] She's all that.

[552] Yeah, she is all that.

[553] But was that at play?

[554] Did you have any reservation of like, oh, I was already signed up for that?

[555] You know what I think?

[556] I wasn't that hesitant actually about Michelle.

[557] You know, you think about it, we dated for three years.

[558] It wasn't like I dragged it out.

[559] And for two of those years, we were apart because I was still in law school.

[560] She was back in Chicago.

[561] I think for me, I've never completely understood this, but I actually had fewer commitment issues than most of my friends.

[562] I liked the idea of family.

[563] I liked the idea of being there as of husband and a dad in a way that I I hadn't had.

[564] Yeah, yeah.

[565] Do you think you wanted to give someone what you wanted?

[566] Is that part of it?

[567] For me, it is.

[568] Yeah, I think there was that sense of I was missing this.

[569] Look, my mother gave me, as she always described it, if anything else, at least I gave you an interesting life.

[570] And she's absolutely true, right?

[571] I mean, I was flying to Jakarta when I was six years old, and I'm body surfing in Hawaii, and I'm stopping in Australia.

[572] And all kinds of cool stuff happened to me. But we didn't have a center.

[573] We didn't have a base.

[574] There was disorder.

[575] Michelle's the complete opposite.

[576] And I write about this in the book, and I've teased her about it before.

[577] You know, she's leave it to beaver, right?

[578] I mean, dad, mom, brother.

[579] The only thing missing was a dog and lived in the same house and neighborhood and cousins and uncles.

[580] She just had this built -in community that was stable and steady and trusted.

[581] and I think there was a part of me that saw in her the chance to give my kids something I didn't have.

[582] Now, the flip side is, and she'll admit this, there was a part of me that she saw that she didn't have as growing up, which was adventure and risk -taking.

[583] Yeah.

[584] So in that sense, I think it was complimentary.

[585] Look, the bottom line was you're hesitant when it comes to commitments just because, and I won't say this is a man thing, I just think this is a person thing.

[586] you know, you're kind of thinking, man, am I, am I ready to lock down?

[587] And so you got to think about that a little bit.

[588] But at the end of the day, it's always a leap of faith, and I'm glad I took it.

[589] Well, I think I'm only attracted to women that are incredibly industrious hustlers.

[590] And I see that parallel with, of course, your mom ended up with a PhD.

[591] By the way, anthropology, mastered in anthropology.

[592] Oh, look at that.

[593] Ding, ding, ding.

[594] So your mom was crazy intelligent, crazy driven.

[595] it makes sense to me that you would have been attracted to someone like Michelle who was out there getting it done.

[596] Yeah.

[597] And my grandmother was, I write about her extensively.

[598] You know, she's part of the greatest generation.

[599] She doesn't get the GI Bill when my grandfather comes back from World War II.

[600] So she never gets a college education, but starts in the secretarial pool, becomes vice president at this regional bank, Bank of Hawaii.

[601] I was accustomed to strong women.

[602] And pretty early on, I kind of figured out, in contrast to some of my friends, that if I was out with the Cupidol, who was sitting there agreeing with everything I said and was just looking cute.

[603] It's embarrassing.

[604] After a while, you'd just be like, you know, that moment where you're at the dinner and you're just trying to keep the balloon in the air?

[605] That's right.

[606] That's right.

[607] It's just sinking and sinking and run out of things to say.

[608] And you're asking yourself, how much do I value sex?

[609] I mean, what percentage of the day can it actually be?

[610] Well, but more than that, part of what you realize is this won't be that much fun because there's nothing that's stimulating the brainwaves here.

[611] There's no humor and pushback.

[612] But as I said, not all my friends felt that way.

[613] I had a bunch of friends who didn't want to be challenged in that way.

[614] And now what's been interesting is my staff, a lot of them who started with me out of high school volunteering on campaigns, now they're 35, you know, they're starting to think about marriage, form families, start having kids.

[615] And, you know, I tell them, look, part of what you buy into if you have an incredible partner who's going to, by the way, raise your kids with you.

[616] So if they're boring, you know, that's a big influence on your kids.

[617] kids.

[618] But part of the deal, part of the package is everything's kind of up for negotiation.

[619] They're not going to defer to you on everything.

[620] And there is stress and hassle involved in those daily negotiations.

[621] And you've got to be okay with that.

[622] That has to be your expectation.

[623] Yeah, that's got to be your expectation.

[624] And it's worth it.

[625] So I was pretty clear, I think, from the start that that's what I was willing to sign up for.

[626] And I was right.

[627] And by the way, my daughters turned out to be strong, amazing, really sharp, funny kids, because their mom is all that.

[628] Well, having never been around you, but there's a big clue for me in your book.

[629] And again, this is something I feel like I really can relate to.

[630] So my wife, too, is a beast.

[631] She is a fucking beast.

[632] I love her.

[633] There's so much reward out of being with that beast.

[634] There isn't a decision we don't debate for 40 minutes.

[635] So I so relate.

[636] But then the other thing I would guess with Michelle is that she is probably a master and making you work for it still.

[637] So this is another great gift of my wife.

[638] She knows I'm an approval junkie.

[639] Your wife knows you are too.

[640] And she just gives you enough to keep you on the treadmill.

[641] But it's just not a given.

[642] Is that a good guess?

[643] Not only do you have to work for it, she's taught my daughters.

[644] So do that.

[645] You know, I know they love me. But maybe not permanently.

[646] Yeah, I mean, there's always the possibility that if I really screw up badly, it could change.

[647] They may pass on you at some point.

[648] It's not clear that it is, in fact, unconditional.

[649] It may be conditional.

[650] Yeah, and that may be the right call to keep you and I around.

[651] The reason I figured this out is you give some of the book to Emily, someone on his staff, and this for me is Monica.

[652] So this is a thing I related to so much.

[653] So he has a preoccupation with this woman on his staff when he's, running who doesn't give a fuck about anything she he cannot impress her he's giving he's doing voices he's telling stories to no smiling he introduces her to Oprah she's like yeah well yeah I got I recognize yeah and I was like oh my God we have the same word yeah I I I if Emily Purcell is listening loved her so I'm running for president we're in Iowa we weren't the favorite candidate We were running against Hillary and the Clintons and a lot of candidates who were much more established.

[654] So we had all these young kids, you know, who were running around.

[655] And one of our top lieutenants in Iowa was this woman named Emily Purcell, who she was maybe 25, looked like she was 17.

[656] And she couldn't have been more than like 5 '2.

[657] Oh, my God, you're describing Monica to a T. Keep going.

[658] But she was tough as nails, knew everybody was this political operator.

[659] And so she was the person who would like a company as we go from these small towns.

[660] And she'd tell me who the county chairman was and, you know, what issues were about corn prices, you know, we're big there, this and that.

[661] And the whole time, I'm kind of thinking, you know, we're, you know, hanging out.

[662] I'm charming.

[663] I'm charming.

[664] I'm going to joke around.

[665] and so that, like, she's not so mean to me about, like, me making my donor calls.

[666] Nothing worked, man. She was impassive.

[667] So I tell the story in the book about finally, there's this big speech I give in Iowa at the Jefferson Jackson dinner where all the candidates appear.

[668] And I really nailed it.

[669] By acclamation, I just killed this speech.

[670] It was perfect.

[671] And it kind of gave us this huge momentum going into the final days before the caucus, which is sort of the primary in Iowa.

[672] And a friend of ours goes up to Emily and said, that was great, wasn't it?

[673] And Emily says, yep.

[674] And the friend says, well, you don't look very excited.

[675] And she just had this complete stone face.

[676] She says, this is my excited face.

[677] Oh, my God.

[678] That was Emily.

[679] But that reminds me, though, of we were talking earlier about communities.

[680] and one of the great things about some campaigns, not all, some political campaigns are transactional, right?

[681] You've got these high -powered consultants and they're getting paid lots of money and it's all about polls and TV, et cetera.

[682] And then there are a handful of moments and, you know, my campaign in 2008 was one of those where you really do form this community of people who are there because they've got this idea.

[683] In our case, this idea that we could, bridge our differences and bring people together.

[684] And you had a bunch of kids, really, who were suddenly dropped into these communities that they'd never been before and in some ways look completely foreign to them.

[685] And they would win over people who are much older, you know, farmers and factory workers.

[686] And in some ways, I got elected based on the relationships that those kids formed in these various communities all across the country.

[687] And I write in the book, about just how, to this day, I would do anything for those kids.

[688] Yeah.

[689] A lot of them continued to work with us and stayed with us.

[690] But politics at its best is analogous to the friendships we were talking about.

[691] It's not exactly the same, but there's that sense of we built something that transcends issues or what's in it for me. It's that kind of sense of, I trust you, I see you, I believe in you.

[692] And that's a powerful piece of business.

[693] And it's a vulnerable endeavor.

[694] You all know that judgment day will arrive and they will vote whether they like you or not.

[695] So everyone's got their heart on their sleeve.

[696] Everyone's exposed.

[697] Everyone has failure as an option ahead.

[698] No, I think that's exactly right.

[699] And in fact, it's one of the reasons why, you know, there are times where people wonder, wow, how is it that politicians lose themselves or become jerks or, you know, is it just the occupation attracts jerks or is it that, you know, does it change them?

[700] And a lot of it is that we organize our lives as we get older so that we don't have public failures.

[701] Yeah, yeah.

[702] So that we don't suffer the same kinds of humiliations that we suffered when we were adolescence.

[703] The dance floor.

[704] Yeah, literally the dance floor, right?

[705] Politics is one of the few situations in which grown people can have very public humiliations.

[706] Yeah.

[707] And what happens is a lot of politicians, they will do anything to avoid that sense of everybody looking at them saying, you are a loser.

[708] You lost.

[709] You lost.

[710] And the judgment being not just that you lost this seat, but that as a person, you're somewhat unworthy and people kind of looked at you and decided, we don't like you there much.

[711] It's so painful.

[712] Some people have decided to not accept.

[713] that.

[714] Boom.

[715] That sometimes happens.

[716] Okay.

[717] All I want to say is your book is phenomenal.

[718] A Promise Land.

[719] I really, really love it.

[720] I was more ignorant about your story than I would have guessed I was.

[721] I didn't realize how circuitous your route was there, that you weren't a great student, that you weren't student council.

[722] I love that stuff.

[723] I love that.

[724] You took moments.

[725] You took risks.

[726] You listened to people.

[727] People in the Senate said eight more years in the Senate's not going to make you a better president.

[728] And most importantly, I want to say, your willingness to give credit is admirable and I applaud it.

[729] So much of the book is you deferring the accolade to the people who built this thing with you.

[730] And it's really impressive.

[731] No, listen, I appreciate that.

[732] I tell you just kind of close and thought on this because Monica's so young, she maybe can't fully appreciate this.

[733] I'm not as young.

[734] I'm like an Emily.

[735] Can I point something out fast math?

[736] We're all 13 years apart.

[737] I'm 13 years younger than you and she's 13 younger than me. This is, this is some symmetry here.

[738] Well, there you go.

[739] She's a baby and you're not.

[740] You're, grizzled.

[741] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[742] But here's the thing that I found as time goes on, and you look back on life, people who are, who've had some measure of success and don't both recognize the degree to which other people were responsible for that, as well as just pure luck, I don't trust those people.

[743] Like, if I meet, you know, some big CEO type, and they start explaining how they worked so hard and nobody gave them anything and blah, blah, blah.

[744] It's like, either you weren't paying attention or you're lying to yourself.

[745] Because the truth of the matter is, is that we're all products of circumstance, environment, family, and a lot of luck.

[746] And sometimes, you know, we get breaks that we didn't necessarily deserve.

[747] And sometimes people are just generous to you and help you in ways that there was no reason for them to do it.

[748] then they just did the right thing or saw something in you that you didn't see in yourself.

[749] And so much I think sometimes of our, not just our politics, but our society that is skewed or screwed up has to do with people not seeing that, thinking that somehow, no, it's me, it's I, I did this, I earned this, and if things didn't work out for you, it's because some major flaw in you.

[750] And a dose of humility is a useful thing.

[751] Well, we appreciate you so much.

[752] There was about 96 questions.

[753] I didn't get to ask you, so I do pray we get to do this again.

[754] We'll come back from volume two.

[755] Okay, volume two.

[756] And then on that ending note, I would not be sitting here without Monica Padman.

[757] I'm nothing but a failed movie director without her.

[758] So thanks for bringing that up.

[759] Way to go, Monica.

[760] I hope you embarrass me on a basketball court someday when I'm trying to get some attention.

[761] I look forward to all of it.

[762] We'll get out there.

[763] All right, man. Thank you.

[764] Thank you.

[765] Take care, guys.

[766] Bye.

[767] Yeah.

[768] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[769] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[770] Good evening.

[771] Good evening.

[772] You are off on a luxury vacation.

[773] Two nights.

[774] That's right.

[775] Two days.

[776] Currently in the future.

[777] Well, you're on this vacation when this airs.

[778] That's right.

[779] So it's in the future, but it's also.

[780] So currently.

[781] Oh my gosh.

[782] It's both things.

[783] Time and continuum.

[784] You're on a two -day vacation with girls.

[785] I'm on a girls trip.

[786] There'll be wine.

[787] There'll be massages.

[788] There might be some poolside lounging, some gossip.

[789] God, I hope.

[790] I hope, I hope.

[791] Yes, I'm waking up early tomorrow morning to drive to, I'll shout him out.

[792] Oh, hi.

[793] Oh, hi Valley Inn and Spa.

[794] Yeah, I don't think they need any help, but let's give it to them.

[795] I don't either.

[796] It's impossible to get a room there.

[797] I know.

[798] I've tried so many times last minute.

[799] It's just never a go -to last minute.

[800] You can't do last minute.

[801] It's not a hotel for procrastinators.

[802] And they'd probably be proud to say that.

[803] Yeah.

[804] Even during like pandemic times.

[805] Forget it.

[806] It was too hard.

[807] Yeah.

[808] It's worth the wait.

[809] I'm very, very, very excited.

[810] Taking a little time for the gals.

[811] Yeah.

[812] A couple days.

[813] And what are you going to do?

[814] Well, best friend Aaron Weekly's in town.

[815] He is.

[816] I will have at this point gone on a motorcycle ride with my de facto father, Tom Hansen, and Aaron Weekly.

[817] son.

[818] So it'll be a three -generation.

[819] Oh my God.

[820] Is he going to call Tom his grandpa?

[821] Yeah, I insist on it.

[822] Okay.

[823] Yeah.

[824] I got to explain to Tom that he's, he doesn't, Tom doesn't even accept that I'm his son.

[825] Wait until he finds out Aaron's his grandson.

[826] It's going to be a real big hurdle for him.

[827] He has a lot to take in.

[828] What does Tom not like about you being his son?

[829] The fact that he has to be a parent or that he's old enough?

[830] Old enough to be my dad.

[831] Because we're bros. I know that.

[832] That's the truth.

[833] He doesn't want to think, like, I need a father figure.

[834] That's, okay, but see, that's what I'm asking.

[835] Yeah, yeah, we're really, really tight.

[836] But I do look up to him.

[837] I idolize him, and I seek his guidance quite often.

[838] I understand.

[839] I'll probably pal around with some 46 -year -old dude when I'm 71, and I'll be like, don't fucking call me your dad.

[840] I'm your peer.

[841] Okay, fast math.

[842] How old is that kid right now?

[843] What kid?

[844] The one that's...

[845] The one that you will be hanging out with when you're 71.

[846] Okay, he is 20.

[847] Oh.

[848] It's scary, right?

[849] That's not that feels like not that big of a difference.

[850] It doesn't.

[851] Yeah.

[852] I'm 25 years older than a 21 year old.

[853] And Tom is 25 years older than you?

[854] He's 71.

[855] So 51.

[856] Yeah, he's 25 years older than me. No, he's more than that.

[857] No. Really?

[858] 71 minus 46.

[859] Oh, my God.

[860] I know.

[861] I know.

[862] We both know.

[863] We don't need to say it.

[864] Let's stop talking about it.

[865] I know.

[866] Tom's so virile.

[867] And he rides a motorcycle.

[868] like a mother phone.

[869] Yeah, that's crazy.

[870] What's the problem?

[871] He's got that thick head of hair.

[872] There's no problem.

[873] You definitely could hang out with the 21 -year -old now and mentor.

[874] Do I have any 21 -year -old friends?

[875] I don't think so.

[876] What's my youngest friend?

[877] Probably Charlie.

[878] Anna.

[879] How old she?

[880] She's...

[881] Danny, Daniel Ricardo.

[882] He's 30.

[883] Yeah, Anna's younger than that.

[884] I think.

[885] I think she's turning 30.

[886] Oh, okay, 29.

[887] I think.

[888] Still, I got to show.

[889] shave eight years off that okay let me think my brother no he's not even 21 okay oh my god like think how young that is i'd have to be hanging out with like a senior in college i don't want you to do that junior in college what about the kid on bless this mess the boy he was like 27 oh jesus but yeah we're never going to find a 21 year old for you to mentor if you're a 21 year old you want to be my friend please hit the comment section if you want a dad if you want a dad that wants to be your bro.

[890] Hit me up.

[891] Well, President Obama.

[892] Can you believe we did that?

[893] When we started the show, it was a huge joke that we would eventually interview Obama.

[894] It was a blatant joke.

[895] And yeah, he falls into the category of like, even as an actor, I never watched him giving a speech on TV and thought, you know, I might meet that guy.

[896] Exactly.

[897] I didn't think I'd ever chat with him, nor Hillary nor Bill.

[898] So still in that category of like, there was no shot that we were going to ever chat with them.

[899] Yeah.

[900] Like, you'd see actors and you'd think, I don't know, maybe Brad Pitt will be at the wrong party, but I'll be at the right party and then I'll meet him.

[901] And we'll have our microphones.

[902] Yes.

[903] It's just really surreal.

[904] It's really high on the gratitude list.

[905] I would have predicted I'd be so starstruck by him that I wouldn't even comprehend like, oh, he too is a human who wants to be, if he's agreed to do some appearance.

[906] He wants it to go well, too.

[907] Oh, well, we both want it to go well.

[908] There was some weird sense of that.

[909] But isn't that sort of what we do?

[910] I feel like the whole point is to make people normal.

[911] Sure.

[912] Or not make them normal.

[913] Approachable.

[914] Show their humanity and their normalcy.

[915] Yeah, maybe that whole thing is it's not appropriate to say.

[916] Well, I think it's appropriate to say.

[917] When you have these larger -than -life figures and then immediately they're, become a person in front of you, it makes you feel a little bit more confident or capable or something.

[918] It could sound cocky.

[919] Well, yeah, it does.

[920] But it also sounds like the truth, which is just people are people.

[921] And it doesn't take away that it was incredibly exciting and also such a fun chat.

[922] Oh, humongous privilege.

[923] Like none of that disappears.

[924] Just the, I can't believe I'm talking to this person.

[925] And that's a lot of what my brain's concentrating on.

[926] Right.

[927] Wasn't there, and I'm grateful for it.

[928] Yeah, well, you have to compartmentalize also.

[929] You can't, when you're interviewing someone and trying to have an vulnerable, honest conversation, you can't be thinking, I cannot believe I'm talking to this person.

[930] Whoa.

[931] Oh, my Lord.

[932] Twist the plastic thing on the bottom.

[933] You know, it's never, it's just so a twisty twist.

[934] Twist, twist.

[935] Yeah, just twist and just keeps twisting.

[936] Endless infinity.

[937] Oh, there we go.

[938] We did it.

[939] Oh, it wasn't infinity.

[940] You did it.

[941] You taught me. Very mechanical.

[942] Oh, my God.

[943] Speaking of mechanical.

[944] I know you aren't going to bring this up, but I'll bring it up for you.

[945] What's that?

[946] You fixed my tire.

[947] Oh, right.

[948] You left the house.

[949] I left your house.

[950] The construction zone.

[951] That is our home.

[952] And I was driving, driving, and my car told me that the tire pressure was dropping.

[953] dropping.

[954] And it was also exciting because I've never had a car that tells me that.

[955] Yeah, you just got to wait until you lose control and go, oh, I think the tire must have been flat.

[956] Well, often what happens is people will honk at me. Oh, okay.

[957] And they'll be like pointing and making a bad face.

[958] Like, yikes, you better be careful.

[959] And do you think you in those times think, oh, I left my gas cap off?

[960] First, I'm annoyed that anyone's honking at me and I look at them with a mean face.

[961] Yeah, roll your eyes.

[962] Yep.

[963] And then they look scared for me. So then I, I saw.

[964] soften a bit, but I'm so on guard.

[965] Okay, good.

[966] And then they normally tell me like, flat tire.

[967] Oh, uh -huh.

[968] And I say, oh, thank you.

[969] And then you ignore it.

[970] Yep.

[971] Then I keep driving.

[972] Yes, until you get to where you want to go.

[973] And then it's rattled, like in your metal on the ground.

[974] It gets worse and worse.

[975] Yeah.

[976] But this time.

[977] You called me and you said my lights on.

[978] Yeah.

[979] And I said, immediately turn around and come back to the house before it goes completely flat.

[980] Then you're going to need to pull the whole wheel off at your apartment or have fucking It's a toll truck com or something.

[981] Yeah, so you came back to the house.

[982] We got my plug kit.

[983] Yeah.

[984] We located.

[985] You have so many gadgets.

[986] You got to.

[987] I mean, you do got to because we all have car issues and you're in charge of fixing that.

[988] The only guy in town knows anything about car.

[989] Now, the tricky thing for people who have plugged a tire is generally it's easy.

[990] You find the nail.

[991] We found it.

[992] You pull it out with some needle nose pliers.

[993] Could not do that.

[994] It was so stubborn.

[995] Got some channel locks.

[996] Got everything.

[997] Wouldn't come out because weirdly the backside went through.

[998] Exactly.

[999] And the sharp end was the one sticking out.

[1000] So strange.

[1001] People won't like this.

[1002] But I was like, well, the only way we're getting a plug in there is I'm going to push the nail into the tire.

[1003] People won't like that.

[1004] No, you shouldn't have a nail rattling around the inside of the wheel.

[1005] I haven't heard anything.

[1006] It doesn't matter.

[1007] Yeah.

[1008] But people won't like that.

[1009] Oh, I'm sorry, people.

[1010] Okay.

[1011] So anyways, I was like, well, it ain't coming out.

[1012] So I'm pushing it in.

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] Kind of like a wine bottle port.

[1015] Oh, I see.

[1016] Yeah.

[1017] People won't like that.

[1018] Right.

[1019] Somaliers.

[1020] But we're the type that'll just drink that wine with the cork floating in there.

[1021] Of course.

[1022] So I pushed it through, it dropped in, and then I plugged it.

[1023] Anywho, by the way, the tire on your car is a few hundred dollars.

[1024] I know.

[1025] And it's a new tire.

[1026] I know.

[1027] The car has only got, what, four or five thousand miles on it?

[1028] Okay, tell people about the sticky straws.

[1029] Well, okay, so first what you have to do is you want to make the whole kind of uniform.

[1030] So you put this piece of metal in there, steel, that is a really cool.

[1031] course on the outside and you pop it in and out in and out and out you scuff it all up really nice so it's kind of a uniform diameter then you take this thing that looks just like a pipe cleaner but it seems to be made out of tar it's like gooey yeah and then you stick it in this incredible tool that has an eye like a needle and you thread this gooey thing into the eye of the needle which is the hardest part of the entire process and now you are you have a handle with like a screwdriver coming out, and then perpendicular is this piece of tar pipe cleaner.

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] And then you just ram that into the tire.

[1034] Yeah.

[1035] And now you jerk it out as fast as you can, sort of break free from that eye.

[1036] And now you have two little doodads hanging up the previous hole where the hole was.

[1037] And you take a razor blade and then you cut off those doodads.

[1038] I watched all of this.

[1039] By the way, start to finish, we were there for four and a half minutes.

[1040] Well, yeah, the long part was trying to get the nail out.

[1041] But yeah, the actual sticky straw part was quick, and it was really exciting.

[1042] We had you aired up and on your way.

[1043] It was real quick.

[1044] And so far, so good.

[1045] Oh, it's going to be fine.

[1046] I told you when that happened, I've saved conservatively $4 ,000 in my life.

[1047] I've plugged at least four big tires.

[1048] Why don't they do that when you have?

[1049] Because they want to sell tires.

[1050] Ah.

[1051] Yeah.

[1052] Wow.

[1053] people put in the comments section you shouldn't plug the sidewall okay right i didn't plug the sidewall but they're fine i don't think our people are going to say that i've had um people correct me on mechanical stuff really in the comments yeah yeah yeah wow well anyway it really was so helpful i was very grateful just like i was grateful to obama i was grateful to you because you know how to do that kind of thing and i would have spent so much money like if if he knew you would be impressed with both of us and all he had to do is learn how to plug a tire instead of become president.

[1054] Don't you think he's regretting it now?

[1055] Like, oh, fuck, I shouldn't have gone through all that road scholar and all that BS.

[1056] Yeah, he's upset.

[1057] Anyway, I just feel, I mean, really just grateful to the arm cherries that they have given us a show that has led to this moment.

[1058] That is a thousand percent.

[1059] Right.

[1060] I'm so glad you said that.

[1061] Yeah, if we didn't have as many listeners as we have who are also.

[1062] So smart people who spread good information and who buy books and read them.

[1063] Like if that wasn't our base, we wouldn't be a place he'd come.

[1064] Yeah.

[1065] So thank you, arm cherries, for this gift.

[1066] Now, my goal was certainly not accomplished.

[1067] It's not like if I run into him, I can call him Barry.

[1068] There's many more steps.

[1069] We have ways to go.

[1070] A couple more.

[1071] My, of course, hope was that by the end of this, like, I think I'm going to be calling him Barry.

[1072] Your expectations are so high.

[1073] You got to send him high.

[1074] well that's true even at their jokes what do you mean well our joke was let's get obama oh god you're right yeah oh i'm gonna put i'm gonna float this idea out there okay you and i both had some serious thought about when we found out like you this works the same way every time and it's just as exciting each time monica sends me an email always going you're not gonna fucking believe this and it'll be like a forward of someone saying reaching out reaching out on behalf of president and Obama.

[1075] Then I call you and we were giddy little children.

[1076] And then I like that.

[1077] What you did.

[1078] I know what you did.

[1079] Thank you.

[1080] And then we said, as exciting as this is, it also is dangerous to get everyone you want.

[1081] Yes.

[1082] Because then you're like, what are you?

[1083] What's next?

[1084] Yeah.

[1085] And then we quickly concluded, well, there really isn't the next.

[1086] Yeah.

[1087] So then I said, what if we flip this bitch right?

[1088] on its head.

[1089] And now we start interviewing villains.

[1090] Kim Jong -un.

[1091] Uh -huh.

[1092] Vladimir Putin.

[1093] We're going to have to get a hold of Segal, Stephen Seagall.

[1094] Oh, speaking of that, there are a lot of comments.

[1095] Oh, there were.

[1096] Especially people who, like, read Julianna's book.

[1097] I mean, when she talked to us, there was definitely a, like, lighter touch, like a lighter attitude.

[1098] And so we were, like, making jokes and stuff.

[1099] But I think in the book, it is more serious, and he really took advantage of a lot of people, girls, women.

[1100] Oh, okay.

[1101] So we didn't know that.

[1102] We were not aware of the depth.

[1103] But also, we didn't read the book.

[1104] I guess people who have have said, like, yeah, that chapter is not.

[1105] It's intense.

[1106] Oh, okay.

[1107] Well, that kind of explains.

[1108] Remember, I said to you afterwards, like, when I brought him up, I was, like, really trying to read her face.

[1109] going like, oh, is this something she wants to talk about or not?

[1110] Right.

[1111] And probably because I was bringing him up in such a silly manner, and I assume the chapter was kind of pointing out what a bozo.

[1112] Right.

[1113] I was having a hard time getting a read, whether or not I was like, if this was a good territory.

[1114] To talk about it.

[1115] And maybe it was exactly that.

[1116] Like, in her mind, it was like, oh, well, this chapter isn't like, oh, funny.

[1117] A funny thing.

[1118] Yeah.

[1119] Yeah.

[1120] If we're sorry that we made, that we didn't maybe realize the gravity of the Stephen's the hell story.

[1121] Yeah.

[1122] But wait.

[1123] No, okay, so sorry, going back.

[1124] So now you want to interview villains.

[1125] Because guess what?

[1126] They're probably people, too.

[1127] People won't want to admit it, but they're probably people too.

[1128] They might be.

[1129] Some of them.

[1130] Some of them are AI.

[1131] True.

[1132] It was funny because I told, you know, a few people close to us that we were going to have Obama on.

[1133] And almost everyone had the exact same reaction, which is so I guess you're done.

[1134] Right, right.

[1135] So there's going to be no more episodes after that.

[1136] It was really funny.

[1137] But you know what's great is like, so I have those kind of thoughts.

[1138] And then like right around the time I was having those thoughts, we released Jonathan Tucker.

[1139] And I'm like, no, like my favorite part of this show is also just probably someone you don't know a lot about or you might be introduced to.

[1140] Of course.

[1141] And then they're a lightning and a Cadillac.

[1142] Yeah, I agree.

[1143] Okay.

[1144] Thanks for processing that with us.

[1145] Well, I do want to say one thing.

[1146] Criticism.

[1147] No. Well, look, you could look at it that way.

[1148] I am not.

[1149] It's not a criticism.

[1150] And I don't know that you actually like the story.

[1151] I've told it.

[1152] And I'm sorry if you don't, because I'm not saying it in a way to take anything away from you.

[1153] But at the beginning of the episode, he asks me, how did you end up in that chair next to him?

[1154] Uh -huh.

[1155] And, you know, we go over, we go through the little origin story.

[1156] But then I start thinking about that.

[1157] And I kept thinking like, you know, I should have said, well, I put this chair here.

[1158] Uh -huh.

[1159] Yeah, I heard you say this to Kristen.

[1160] Yeah, and then I told that to Kristen.

[1161] But I thought you were there.

[1162] And I didn't know if that story made you upset.

[1163] And I don't want it to at all because I'm not saying it to take anything away from you.

[1164] But I'm saying it as in like, well, I wasn't invited here as like a guest to co -host.

[1165] Diversity hire.

[1166] Yeah, exactly.

[1167] Exactly.

[1168] I wasn't, you know.

[1169] Yeah, so I heard you tell that to Kristen, and Kristen loved that response.

[1170] And I saw you guys share a moment that was very girl -powery, which I liked.

[1171] And then hours later, I thought about it again.

[1172] And I thought, also not fair.

[1173] It's such a legitimate question.

[1174] Like, I've been doing movies for 20 years, and everyone knows why I have a podcast.

[1175] Like, my part is quite clear.

[1176] You're 33, and he wants to know how we have this relationship and how you're the co -hosts of a podcast.

[1177] I think that's a totally normal question mark.

[1178] And I think if Aaron Weekly was sitting in the chair next to me, I don't think it was male -female.

[1179] I think it was you weren't famous, now you're famous.

[1180] How did that happen?

[1181] I don't think it had anything to do with fame.

[1182] And I also don't necessarily think it had anything to do with gender.

[1183] I'm not saying it did.

[1184] I think he was asking what led to the circumstances that allowed you to be here.

[1185] I mean, that's the interpretate, you know, that's my interpretation.

[1186] I looked at it very much as when I was on punked and people would say, how'd you get on punked?

[1187] Like, where did you come from?

[1188] What is the thing that led to you being on this prank show, were you improv?

[1189] Were you a comedian?

[1190] Were you, it turns out I did improv?

[1191] You know, like.

[1192] I wasn't offended.

[1193] No, I know.

[1194] I don't think it's that.

[1195] I just, what I thought was, first and foremost, objectively, it's an awesome story.

[1196] Take you and I out of it.

[1197] Someone that started babysitting for somebody ended up running one of the person's lives and then started a podcast with the other person.

[1198] Like, that's an incredible story.

[1199] It is.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] Yeah.

[1202] But what is, but.

[1203] Well, that's the thing he was looking for.

[1204] In reality, it was an incredibly interesting.

[1205] story, I think.

[1206] Let me put it another way.

[1207] One of the things I hated was people would go, oh, you were friends with Ashton.

[1208] And when they would say you were friends with Ashton, I felt like they were saying somehow he didn't earn this part.

[1209] Like, no, he didn't cast his buddy on this show.

[1210] I was at the groundlings and blah, blah, blah.

[1211] Yeah, yeah.

[1212] And I just wonder if you're having any of those similar feelings I had.

[1213] Probably.

[1214] Like two things are both true.

[1215] One is you want to 100 % deserve to be exactly where you're at because you created it.

[1216] We created it together.

[1217] So in that respect, you're a thousand percent correct.

[1218] You're here because you created this thing.

[1219] Right.

[1220] That's all I'm saying.

[1221] Yes.

[1222] And what's also true is you ended up creating it because we knew each other and you started as a babysitter.

[1223] And like that's this other fun part of it.

[1224] Yes.

[1225] That's like also true.

[1226] Absolutely.

[1227] Yeah.

[1228] Yeah.

[1229] Both things are true.

[1230] You know, I just think it's important for women.

[1231] to take ownership of the things that they own.

[1232] And it's easy to not.

[1233] It's much easier to not and to take the like, I'm so gracious route.

[1234] Right, right, right.

[1235] And not sound braggy or something.

[1236] Exactly.

[1237] Anyway, so I wish I had said that.

[1238] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1239] Is all, is.

[1240] And I have a hunch.

[1241] My guess is most women will feel exactly like Kristen did when you told her.

[1242] I hope.

[1243] Yeah.

[1244] And they're probably mad.

[1245] now at me for having the thoughts I have.

[1246] But we'll see.

[1247] In between the complaints about how I plug the tire, maybe there'll be some.

[1248] Oh, yeah.

[1249] Hopefully same people.

[1250] Okay, some fackies.

[1251] Give me with some fackies.

[1252] Oh, favorite moment of the thing?

[1253] I think we have the same favorite moment.

[1254] Oh, tell it.

[1255] Well, my favorite moment was when he was kind of bragging about how good he was at basketball.

[1256] Me too.

[1257] I love that.

[1258] That was the first time I felt like this might be what it's like to hang out with him as opposed to interview him.

[1259] Yeah.

[1260] Yeah.

[1261] And it'd be fun.

[1262] What's a QPie doll?

[1263] Do you know what a QPie doll is?

[1264] It's a word my mother used a lot.

[1265] Am I saying it right?

[1266] Cupid doll.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] I think it was a little like popular toy in the 50s.

[1269] It was.

[1270] A brand of dolls and figurines that were conceived as comic strip characters by cartoonist Rose O 'Neill.

[1271] The illustrated cartoons appearing as baby Cupid characters began to gain popularity after the publication of O 'Neill's comic strips.

[1272] 1909, and O 'Neill began to illustrate and sell paper doll versions of the QPs.

[1273] The characters were first produced as Bisk dolls in Germany beginning in 1912 and became extremely popular in the early 20th century.

[1274] Also, they predated even my mom's childhood.

[1275] When did the GI Bill pass?

[1276] He mentioned his grandma and didn't benefit from it.

[1277] That was June 22nd, 1944, signed by FDR, which provided veterans of the Second World War Funds for college education, unemployment, insurance, and housing.

[1278] How old was he when his mom died?

[1279] Do you want to do some sad math?

[1280] Yeah, sad math.

[1281] Okay.

[1282] She died in 95.

[1283] Okay.

[1284] November of 95.

[1285] And he was born in August.

[1286] Ding, ding, ding, ding.

[1287] Oh, 61?

[1288] Yep.

[1289] 49, 44.

[1290] He was 44 when she died.

[1291] Whoa.

[1292] And he's the 44th president.

[1293] Fucking.

[1294] Nope.

[1295] He couldn't have been 44 because she - 39 minus 5, 34.

[1296] Okay.

[1297] Yep.

[1298] 34.

[1299] I fucked that up by 10 years.

[1300] It's okay.

[1301] We'll move past it.

[1302] Not great.

[1303] Put out the part where I aired.

[1304] I'm teasing.

[1305] Keep it honest.

[1306] That's the only way it'll be impressive the times it works.

[1307] We're honest.

[1308] We're honest.

[1309] That's really it.

[1310] Obviously there wasn't that many facts.

[1311] He's so cute.

[1312] I mean, I almost said I wish she was my dad, but I don't because I love my dad.

[1313] But I wish she was also my dad.

[1314] Don't you want them more to be your husband as the vibe I get?

[1315] I wouldn't mind that.

[1316] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1317] Well, even like we were, it was really fun because we finished.

[1318] that and then people came over that night.

[1319] So we're all on the deck that night.

[1320] Yeah.

[1321] There was probably like 12 of us and people were asking how it had gone.

[1322] And I overheard you a couple different times like, oh yeah, he's so hot.

[1323] Like I heard he's so hot.

[1324] So sexy.

[1325] Oh, so sexy.

[1326] Even better than being called hot.

[1327] He is sexy.

[1328] Yeah, you were saying how sexy he was.

[1329] And all the other girls were like, yeah.

[1330] Yeah, we love him.

[1331] We love them.

[1332] We're grateful.

[1333] All get out.

[1334] All get out.

[1335] Thanks for building something that would lure the president.

[1336] Thanks for including me. It can be both.

[1337] It can be both.

[1338] Love you.

[1339] I love you.

[1340] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[1343] short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.