Savarkar And India

[0] Christian nationalists want to turn America into a theocracy, a government under biblical rule.

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[4] It's constructing a mythology and presenting it as a history.

[5] it is in that sense an explicit act of symbolic and indeed literal violence to turn the immense heterogeneity of Indian society into a single strand and that element of both symbolic violence and literal violence is very pronounced so it is absolutely at odds with what are demographic realities but also this very complex multi -layered history I mean, India has hundreds of languages and hundreds of castes and hundreds of cultures.

[6] And so the Hindu nationalists say, what's the only thing that a Hindu from Kerala in the south has in common with a Hindu from Kashmir in the north, right?

[7] They don't speak the same language.

[8] They don't even have the same ways of worshiping.

[9] The only thing that they have in common is their faith.

[10] And so Hindu nationalists have sought to unite India's majority Hindus under this identity of a monolithic Hindu faith.

[11] Fear as tensions remain high in Delhi.

[12] The unrest has been centred around Muslim majority neighbourhoods.

[13] They're in the northeast of Delhi.

[14] Travel began between the Hindu majority and Muslim minority over the controversial citizens' law brought in by the nationalist government under Prime Minister Modi.

[15] A new law, providing citizenship for undocumented migrants as long as they're not Muslim.

[16] We are feeling unsafe.

[17] There's no rule of law in the country right now, as you can see.

[18] The Prime Minister says the citizenship law helps people from other countries who've been persecuted for their faith, but protesters say both him and the law threaten the foundations of a secular India.

[19] How long will it take communities both Muslim and Hindu to heal?

[20] And how can they ever fully restore trust?

[21] You're listening to ThruLine from NPR.

[22] Where we go back in time?

[23] To understand the present.

[24] Over the past several weeks, violence has erupted in the streets of Delhi, India.

[25] The fighting started over a new law called the Citizen Amendment Act.

[26] The law provides a pathway to citizenship for undocumented people from Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Afghanistan.

[27] But not if you're Muslim.

[28] And Asmanu Goswamy, an Indian historian at New York University, set up a lot of people.

[29] at the top?

[30] This is happening in one of the most heterogeneous places on earth.

[31] The citizenship law was passed in December under Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the Baratia Janata Party, or BJP, India's right -wing Hindu nationalist political party.

[32] Critics of Modi and his party see the law as the latest in a series of moves to discriminate against India's Muslim population.

[33] Protest escalated quickly during our recent elections when some BJP officials encouraged supporters to retaliate against those protesting the citizenship law.

[34] Two BJP politicians have been banned from campaigning for three days in Delhi's upcoming local elections after saying protesters should be shot and likening demonstrators to rapists and murderers.

[35] Riots broke out.

[36] Over 40 people were killed.

[37] Mosques, homes and schools were burned.

[38] Many say the government and the police did little to stop the violence.

[39] This all led us back to an earlier episode we did that looked at the implications of Modi's re -election and dug into the roots of Hindu nationalism, which has gained power under his rule.

[40] Hello, this is Marianela from Manzanillo, Mexico, and you're listening to ThruLine from NPR.

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[48] Back in May of 2019, when Narendra Modi was re -elected as prime minister, we called NPR's India correspondent, Lauren Freyer, to walk us through what it meant for India.

[49] So it means 2014 wasn't a fluke that the Indian people again have overwhelmingly chosen, a prime minister and a party that represent a different set of values for India than the ones that traditionally dominated Indian politics since independence.

[50] So the BJP and Modi, they want to bring the country's majority Hindu faith into politics and public life in a way that hasn't been done in the past.

[51] The day after the votes were counted, and we learned that Modi would be re -elected, He gave this speech in which he described secularism as an old fad in Indian politics.

[52] And he said, it's no longer relevant.

[53] This isn't an old fad that other parties used to campaign on and we're beyond that now.

[54] I mean, the Indian Constitution still says this is a secular republic.

[55] But, I mean, in a way, this debate has been frozen in time for seven.

[56] years, Gandhi, Mohandis Gandhi, the freedom leader, was assassinated by a Hindu nationalist within months of India's founding.

[57] And that kind of shut down all debate.

[58] It kind of made it a taboo to criticize Gandhi, certainly, but even to criticize his politics, criticize his vision of a secular pluralistic democracy.

[59] And they think that the way that the state was founded was not the way they wanted it to be founded.

[60] I mean, in the lead up to, the partition of India into two states, India and Pakistan, the Muslims got their state, Pakistan, right?

[61] The Hindus didn't get their state.

[62] They did not get a Hindu state.

[63] They got a secular pluralistic state.

[64] And they were upset about that.

[65] And basically it wasn't until Modi was elected in 2014 and again now that the taboo has been lifted and this debate over whether India should be a secular country is suddenly out in the open.

[66] And I mean, Jawah al -Nehru, India's first prime minister, has really been demonized by the BJP and by Hindu nationalists.

[67] Hindu nationalists accuse him of appeasing minorities and appeasing Muslims.

[68] And Gandhi is starting to be criticized as well.

[69] And that was unheard of a generation ago.

[70] And you mentioned a couple times that in the course of rewriting or reimagining the history, a lot of the antagonism is directed at Muslims in the country.

[71] And that seems to be the primary minority group that has been targeted by the BJP today.

[72] Can you tell us a little bit about why specifically that demographic is being targeted?

[73] So Muslims are the largest religious minority.

[74] India is about 80 % Hindu, maybe 79 point something.

[75] And Muslims are about 14, 15 % of the population.

[76] But in India, with 1 .3 billion people, that's like a huge number of people.

[77] It's like between 180 and 200 million people.

[78] It's one of the world's largest Muslim population.

[79] So, I mean, that's a bigger proportion of India than African Americans are in the U .S. So how do unite, I mean, I was talking earlier about how do unite a Hindu from Kerala with a Hindu from Kashmir?

[80] So one of the easiest.

[81] ways is to unite them around a common enemy.

[82] 70 plus years ago, it was colonialism.

[83] Nationalists encouraged Hindus to define themselves in opposition to a foreign power.

[84] The new other in Hindu nationalist politics is Muslims, and that's what Modi's party and rhetoric has focused on.

[85] By the way, the reason why this makes good politics is this diversity, right?

[86] If you can unite all Hindus as one voting block, 80 % of the population, you've just wrapped up every election.

[87] What was some of the rhetoric that Modi specifically used in this last campaign to kind of try to unite that Hindu population as a voting bloc?

[88] So Modi won in 2014 on economic promises, a lot of which weren't fulfilled.

[89] And so in this election, his campaign really pivoted toward this rhetoric rather than the economy.

[90] So, for example, his party has promised to build a Hindu temple in one of the most incendiary, spots in all of India.

[91] And it's where Hindu extremists tore down a mosque and killed hundreds of Muslims in 1992.

[92] And the situation there is still like very raw.

[93] And it's become this like rally and cry for Modi's hardline Hindu base.

[94] And it has potential to spark incredible violence.

[95] I mean, the riots that followed the destruction of that mosque in 1992 spread across South Asia and the Middle East and thousands of people, mostly Muslims were killed.

[96] So it's really, incendiary rhetoric.

[97] There are also these cow vigilante groups that have sprung up, and these are lay people who take it upon themselves to investigate and sometimes attack people who are suspected of dealing in beef on the black market.

[98] And the people who deal in beef have traditionally been Muslims, Christians, and other minorities who, that was their tradition.

[99] And so there have been these mob lynchings of Muslims and other minorities.

[100] Does Modi himself condone, you know, either tacitly or implicitly, this kind of violence?

[101] He's a very, very good politician.

[102] There are other BJP figures, Amit Shah, has much more vitriolic things he's said about Muslims.

[103] He called undocumented Muslim migrants from Bangladesh termites.

[104] I mean, that's chilling.

[105] That's language that we heard in the Rwandan genocide, right?

[106] But Modi doesn't say that.

[107] Modi stays silent.

[108] He doesn't correct Amit Shah when he says things like that.

[109] When we come back, the founding fathered Hindu nationalism.

[110] Vinayak, Damodar, Sarkar.

[111] This is Roberto from SoCal.

[112] And you're listening to Throughline from NPR.

[113] Northern Michigan has beaches and wineries and big blue lakes, great lakes, you might say.

[114] Each week on the Up North Lowdown podcast, we bring you stories and interesting conversations from the top of the mitten.

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[116] Okay, so now that Lauren helped us understand how Hindu nationalism is playing out today, we jumped into the history of how Hindu nationalism was born.

[117] I'm Adam Roberts.

[118] I'm an economist correspondent.

[119] I spent five years in Delhi as the South Asia correspondent.

[120] This is Adam Roberts, and he guided us through the last.

[121] of a man we came across when we were looking into this history, a man who many people, including Narendra Modi, credit for developing the modern vision of Hindu nationalism.

[122] His name was Binayak Damodar Savakar Savakar.

[123] Savarkar was born in 1883 in a small town in western India.

[124] He came of age under British colonial rule when the political.

[125] political debate among anti -colonialists was whether to resist with force or, as Mahandas Gandhi would argue, with nonviolence.

[126] From an early age, Sabarkar's choice was clear.

[127] He wanted to assert his character, his bravery, as this figure who stood up to Muslims and who was able to assert his muscular strength as a Hindu.

[128] And later in life, he'd get this term veer Savarka.

[129] He'd be called brave Savarka.

[130] And he was always looking for incidents throughout his life.

[131] that he could turn to to show how brave he was.

[132] And the earliest that I at least came across was this anecdote of talking about being a child in the village where they so bravely had gone to smash up the local mosque.

[133] And it's the sort of thing you'll see in India today.

[134] You see it repeatedly throughout Indian history that these clashes on the ground between local communities of Hindus and Muslims can start off as a small bit of violence and then very quickly spread like a wildfire and cause enormous damage.

[135] great loss of life.

[136] As young men, while both were studying law in London, Savakar and Gandhi met.

[137] The story goes that that was a meeting in 1906 in Highgate, in North London, a nice bit of London, where the two men, the two students, were both studying and getting by, and Savaka was apparently cooking a meal at his home.

[138] I understand that he was frying prawns, and Gandhi came by, and...

[139] They met each other and Savaka, being a generous host, said, would you like to share my meal with me?

[140] And Gandhi, who could be a bit prissy, said, no, he wasn't going to touch the meal that Savarka had made because he didn't eat meat.

[141] He'd become a very strict vegetarian.

[142] And Savaka apparently replied saying, well, you're an idiot.

[143] You're a fool.

[144] If you don't eat protein, how are you ever going to be strong enough, muscular enough, to fight off the British?

[145] And whether or not that story is true, it really sets the same beautifully for the divergent views that Gandhi and Savarka took about how to fight off the British.

[146] Gandhi was someone who said, let's stick to our principles, let's be pacifist, let's be intelligent about negotiating all the time.

[147] Savarka was always saying, let's be muscular, let's fight, let's look for ways to kill our enemies.

[148] And the two men were rivals, bitter rivals throughout their lives.

[149] And so Savarkar, you know, he started to develop these nationalist ideas and what does he decide to do?

[150] Savarka gets involved with some more extreme resistance fight, as you might call them, people who were ready to pick up a gun and kill for the campaign to have Indian freedom.

[151] And there's an allegation, and the British certainly thought it was true, that Savarka was part of a conspiracy to kill a British official who was walking through London one summer evening, and an assassin ran up to him and pulled a pistol, I think it was, and shot him dead.

[152] And rather than put him in jail in Britain, the idea was that he would be sent back to India.

[153] What happened, though, and this is where Savaka really got his celebrated start in life, was that while he was being transported by the British, put on a ship in Marseilles Harbour to be taken across to India, he dived out of a porthole.

[154] He opened the porthole window and leapt out into the harbour.

[155] What?

[156] And if you look at sort of hagiographies and cartoons and drawings about Savarka's life, this is often the image that is on the front cover of the book or whatever.

[157] And it's a picture of him diving headfirst out of a porthole down into the dirty waters of Marseilles Harbour to escape the British.

[158] Well, he managed to get off the ship, but he didn't get very far.

[159] He got ashore and was promptly arrested.

[160] Then when he got back to India, he was then sent to.

[161] to this most storied prison out on the Andaman Islands.

[162] This is deep into the Bay of Bengal.

[163] These are tiny little islands, and the prison is a brick building remarkably severe.

[164] It's called cellular jail.

[165] But it's surrounded by lush jungle, and it's a tropical climate.

[166] It's a remarkable place.

[167] And for many Indians, it was a great terror to be sent to the Andaman Islands because they feared disease, torture, and obviously being locked away.

[168] many years.

[169] Famously, he wrote on the walls of the cell.

[170] So while he was kept in prison, he was very keen to write.

[171] He wanted to write about Hindu nationalism.

[172] And for much of the time, he would scrawl on the walls of the cell, because he didn't have access to pen and paper all the time.

[173] So he used the very walls of the prison to write down his manifesto.

[174] That manifesto was later called Hindutva, who, is a Hindu.

[175] Savarkar was sentenced to two life sentences in prison, but was released after about a dozen years.

[176] In exchange for early release, he struck a deal with the British that he'd stopped participating in nationalist politics.

[177] And so through this bit of negotiation, he's able to get out.

[178] And when he gets out, what does he do?

[179] Well, he pretty quickly breaks his word.

[180] Maybe the British shouldn't have been too surprised.

[181] He has decided that the way for India to get its independence is to be far more assertive, far more demanding, both against the British, who of course are running the place, but also against Muslims who are an important, very significant minority part of India's population.

[182] They still are, but they were even bigger back then.

[183] And so he joined this group called the Hindu Mahasaba, which is, if you're thinking about the roots of Hindu nationalism in India, this is an incredibly important organisation.

[184] And from the Hindu Mahasaba, later there breaks off this group called the RSS, which is more of a paramilitary volunteer organisation, which today is by far the most influential Hindu nationalist group in India.

[185] So for many years, he becomes the head of this Hindu nationalist group, which is campaigning to kick the British out of India.

[186] So it's a very hard -line political group.

[187] He's in favor of violence.

[188] He's in favor of being much more confrontational than the Congress movement of Mahandas Gandhi.

[189] That's because Gandhi and the Indian National Congress Party that he led advocated for an end to British rule and a new Indian -led government that was socially democratic, multicultural, and secular.

[190] But Savaka didn't want to do that.

[191] He ridiculed that.

[192] He said that Gandhi was a fool for wanting to work with Muslim.

[193] because the Muslims were a threat, just as much as the British, the Muslims, he said, were a threat to Hindus, and you had to be ready to fight them both.

[194] I mean, by extension, because of Gandhi's sort of calls to unite people across India, including Hindus and Muslims, did Savakar see Gandhi himself as a threat?

[195] Yes, so if you look back throughout their lives, Gandhi proved to be the far more successful politician than Savaka.

[196] So I think some of what Savaka saw in Gandhi was jealousy.

[197] He himself had wished to have the prominence, the political success, the veneration that Gandhi was so skillful at generating for himself.

[198] By the early 1920s, Gandhi had run his campaigns in South Africa, come back to India, and constructed the Congress movement into this most powerful mass body that had millions of followers who were beginning to threaten British control of the continent.

[199] I regard myself as a soldier, though a soldier of peace.

[200] And Savarka looked on with envy and wanted to be more like Gandhi, I think, and felt that Gandhi was both a more skilled strategist, but also more feeble or more willing to give way to their opponents.

[201] And so repeatedly, if you look at letters that Savaka wrote, he repeatedly comes up with taunts and criticisms of Gandhi.

[202] I'll just dig out a couple.

[203] of things that he said.

[204] He called Gandhi a crazy lunatic who happens to babble about compassion and forgiveness.

[205] He says that notwithstanding Gandhi's sublime and broad heart, Gandhi has a very narrow and immature head.

[206] He called Gandhi mealy -mouthed.

[207] I mean, he really didn't like Gandhi's approach to pacifism, to working often with the British instead of against the British.

[208] And, of course, he didn't like the way that Gandhi worked with Muslims.

[209] And so throughout the 1920s and 1930s, there was a bitter competition between Savaka and the Hindu nationalist movement that he was building up on the one side versus Gandhi and the Congress movement, which was much more moderate, but also highly principled, on the other side.

[210] And the more successful Gandhi became, the more furious Savaka became.

[211] And that anger would only continue to build.

[212] When we come back, the assassin's assassination of Mohandas Gandhi.

[213] This is Tessa Adams from Fort Mill, South Carolina, and you are listening to ThruLines from NPR.

[214] I love your guy's show.

[215] I tell everybody that I know about it.

[216] It is amazing, and I can't wait for the next episode to drop.

[217] Thank you.

[218] Bye -bye.

[219] On the TED Radio Hour, MIT psychologist Sherry Turkle, her latest research into the intimate relationships people are having with chatbots.

[220] technologies that say, I care about you, I love you, I'm here for you, take care of me. The pros and cons of artificial intimacy that's on the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

[221] The Hatma Gandhi is dead.

[222] When Fastrong's crowded Delhi's burner house, urging him to break his last fast, a few imagined an assassin would strike near this spot 11 days later.

[223] On August 15th, 1947, India gained independence from, Britain.

[224] And less than a year later, Mohandis Gandhi was assassinated.

[225] At the time, it was alleged that Savarkar played a part in the assassination.

[226] Yeah, I think it's more than just an alleged role.

[227] I think Savarkar did play some part in the assassination of Gandhi.

[228] Now, we can tease out exactly how significant a part he played.

[229] But the people who carried out the assassination of Gandhi, the main figure who is known to history is Godse.

[230] Now he was a member of the movement that Savaka led, the Hindu Mahasaba.

[231] He was an editor of a newspaper within that movement and he came up from the west of India to Delhi and he visited Savaka not long before the assassination.

[232] And although he was arrested and put on trial and then acquitted, it isn't hard to believe that Savarka encouraged them to carry out the assassination and that he may have even provided some means to them.

[233] Wow.

[234] So what happens to Zavarkar?

[235] What legacy does he leave?

[236] Well, after the murder of Gandhi, because of its connection to the assassins, the RSS is banned and the likes of Zavaka are disgraced and they are considered to be far beyond.

[237] beyond the pale by the vast majority of Indians.

[238] And Gandhi for the next 40, 50, 60 years rises as this figure in India, who is the embodiment of all that is wonderful about India, the fact that it is a secular, liberal place where all religions are tolerated, and although, of course, there are still clashes between people, the Constitution of India is this wonderful, forward -thinking, respectful constitution that says Everyone has the freedom of belief.

[239] And so the likes for Zavaka are sidelined.

[240] For decades, they're pushed to one side.

[241] And Zavaka goes on to die in the 1960s.

[242] And he dies in a most mysterious way.

[243] He decides to commit something called Atmapan, which is when a person has decided he's old enough, he's done enough in his life, he's just going to die.

[244] He decided to refuse any more food and he would slowly fade away.

[245] and it took him 20 days.

[246] And this way of ending his life adds to the myth, I think, about Savaka.

[247] It gives him something for others to really respect that he was able to end his own life in this peaceful but not comfortable way.

[248] How does Savakar's name start to reappear in Indian politics?

[249] So the more that Gandhi has built up, the more that Savarka's own reputation falls.

[250] But then we have this political shift in India, which is going on still today, which is the decline of the Congress Party as the dominant political force in India, and the rise of two other forces.

[251] On the one hand, the rise of regional political parties who are more and more important than any national party, and secondly, the rise of the Hindu nationalist movement, and the rise of a party called the BJP.

[252] And so people are looking for heroes, people are looking for someone else to turn to from India's past.

[253] We're going to reach back into the past for characters who promoted Hindu nationalism and who were very aggressive towards Pakistan.

[254] And so every time there was a war with Pakistan, of course, there was an excuse to whip out the nationalism.

[255] But the BJP could turn that into Hindu nationalism and then turn to the likes of Savaka to say this is how we should divine ourselves.

[256] You know, maybe nobody in Indian politics embodies this as much as the current prime minister, Narendra Modi.

[257] I believe you interviewed him on several occasions.

[258] Yeah.

[259] And I'm wondering, do you get the sense that Svarkar has influenced him?

[260] I do.

[261] I think Narendra Modi, before he became a politician, even as a child, he was hugely influenced by the Hindu nationalists.

[262] He became a member of the RSS.

[263] He devoted his whole life.

[264] on to being not just a member, but an active leader within the RSS.

[265] He became a sort of monk within the movement.

[266] And I understood this to be his way of escaping a very rural, small town life in Gujarat and a way for him to escape to the big city and to make something of his life.

[267] Now, Modi was an absolutely devout Hindu nationalist.

[268] And the faster he rose up through the ranks of the RSS, the more outspoken as a Hindu nationalist he became.

[269] And I think that Savaka, also from the west of India, was something of a model for him.

[270] And you can look back throughout Modi's own political history to many examples of times that Modi has cited Savaka as a great hero to be an inspiration for India today.

[271] There's a painting in Parliament of Savarka, and Narendra Modi, Most years in May, on Savaka's birthday, will go to light a candle for Savaka.

[272] He was very happy to endorse the launch of a website devoted to Savaka and to accuse others of spreading terrible propaganda about how wicked Savaka was.

[273] And so the more he builds up the likes for Savaka to be a hero for Indians to celebrate, the more he can play down figures such as Gandhi who talked about, as we've said, unity between Hindus and Muslims and the importance of passivism and so on.

[274] And so Modi likes to turn to Savaka, but also other figures, such as Patel, who was a very strong early independence leader as well, and to say that these more confrontational figures are the models for India to follow because he wants India to be made great again.

[275] And Modi's critics, what would they say?

[276] The great success of India in the last 70, 80 years, is how much.

[277] united it has been and how stable it has been.

[278] Whereas Pakistan next door, which is really dominated by one majoritarian idea that you have to be Muslim, really, to be a Pakistani, Pakistan is in much greater trouble, much less stable, much worse off, because it is not tolerant.

[279] And the danger of Modi and the Hindu nationalists is they actually end up repeating the mistakes that the Pakistanis have made.

[280] So the danger of going the Savarka route is you make all the same mistakes that those other countries made, and you throw away the great success that India has achieved in the last 70 years or so.

[281] That's Adam Roberts.

[282] He's a correspondent for the economist.

[283] That's it for this week's show.

[284] I'm Randhav de Vattah.

[285] I'm Ramtin Arablui, and you've been listening to ThruLine from NPR.

[286] The show was produced by me. And me and Jamie York.

[287] Lawrence Wu.

[288] Lane Kaplan Levinson.

[289] Lou Olkowski.

[290] Nigeri Eaton.

[291] Original music was produced by Ramtin and his band Drop Electric, which includes Anya Mizani.

[292] Navid Marvi.

[293] Show Fujiwara.

[294] Thanks also to Jenae West.

[295] Anya Grunman.

[296] Lauren Freyer.

[297] Scott Newman.

[298] And Sarah Knight.

[299] And a special thanks to Austin Horn and Kevin Vocal.

[300] If you like the episode or you have an idea, please write us at ThruLine and NPR .org.

[301] Or find us on Twitter at ThruLine NPR.

[302] Thanks for listening.

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