10:I[8479,["349","static/chunks/349-c9bb88602114b6df.js","173","static/chunks/173-8ffc04d433c3339f.js","865","static/chunks/865-f26eeb7d8a4ff1d6.js","444","static/chunks/app/episode/%5Buuid%5D/page-e9df19c6dc9fc3dd.js"],"EpisodeClient"] 11:T507,

Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy have called the federal bureaucracy an “existential threat to our republic.” Now, President-elect Donald J. Trump is empowering them to drastically shrink it, by whatever means necessary.

David A. Fahrenthold, an investigative reporter for The New York Times, discusses their plans — and what it would look like if they were actually carried out.

Guest: David A. Fahrenthold, an investigative reporter for The New York Times.

Background reading:

The so-called Department of Government Efficiency has advantages that past budget cutters did not, but laws and court challenges could still make change slow and difficult.

For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

12:T507,

David A. Fahrenthold, an investigative reporter for The New York Times, discusses their plans — and what it would look like if they were actually carried out.

Guest: David A. Fahrenthold, an investigative rep

Two Billionaires’ Big Plan to Shrink Government