Charles Duhigg (on being a supercommunicator)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair, expert, experts on expert.

[1] I'm Jack Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[3] Today we have Charles Duhigg.

[4] Oh, my gosh, was this fun.

[5] Charles is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, New Yorker staff writer, and best -selling author.

[6] His previous books are The Power of Habit, Smarter, Faster, Better, and his new book, which we're here to talk about, is super communicators, how to unlock the secret language of connection.

[7] This was particularly fun for us because we communicate for a living.

[8] do.

[9] Charles was so nice about our communication for the most part.

[10] He had some questions for us, which was nice.

[11] It is nice.

[12] But it was also really informative.

[13] I think it's a very good listen for anyone in the world right now.

[14] Yeah.

[15] Anyone who considers themselves living on planet Earth.

[16] Yes.

[17] I hope Charles feels like this is a feather in his camp.

[18] He's our 700th guest.

[19] Also, yesterday was six year anniversary.

[20] Happy anniversary.

[21] Happy anniversary.

[22] I don't think because we didn't have an episode that came out on the day.

[23] We didn't really have a moment where we said thanks.

[24] We talked about it.

[25] for a second on Valentine's Day, Armchair Anonymous.

[26] Right, which will be tomorrow.

[27] Which will be tomorrow, yeah.

[28] But, yeah, happy anniversary.

[29] Happy anniversary.

[30] Six years, 700 episodes.

[31] 20 % of your life.

[32] I mean, not quite 20%, but almost.

[33] In the Armchair Anonymous episode, you also give a stat.

[34] Yeah.

[35] I had a...

[36] I think you said one six.

[37] It is, it is.

[38] It's really one six.

[39] So I cannibalize that.

[40] It'll be less important if you hear it tomorrow.

[41] That's the full thing.

[42] It's the Easter dinner in this case.

[43] Please enjoy Charles Duhigg.

[44] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[45] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[46] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[47] How are you?

[48] Great to meet you.

[49] Welcome to the Add -in.

[50] Absolutely.

[51] Thanks for having me. Yes, happy to have it.

[52] I appreciate it.

[53] And you guys are friends with Adam Grant.

[54] Yes.

[55] He's a great friend of us.

[56] Oh, you love Adam.

[57] He's in the good guy.

[58] I've listened to the show for years.

[59] I did not actually realize that you guys genuinely were in armchairs.

[60] Oh, we got to be comfy.

[61] Well, I wasn't.

[62] For a while, I was in that yellow chair.

[63] That's evolved.

[64] That's evolved.

[65] But then he got too sweaty in this chair.

[66] So he bought this grandma chair.

[67] Specifically, my back.

[68] Your back got too sweat.

[69] Do you deal with any back sweat, Charles?

[70] Oh, my God, all the time.

[71] And sometimes I'll, Get up.

[72] I look fine in the front.

[73] And then there's like a streak of moisture along the back of my shirt.

[74] Well, compound this with Imagine You Stand Up.

[75] You make that realization, fuck, I'm wet back there.

[76] And now I've got to step outside and take pictures with that.

[77] And Adam Grant.

[78] And he's going to put his arm around me. And it's going to be disgusting.

[79] Actually, worse, like an actress that's probably attractive.

[80] Yeah.

[81] And then she's going to put her hands in a swamp.

[82] It's fine.

[83] You need to be humbled.

[84] Well.

[85] So this is the world.

[86] That's your theory.

[87] I think I'm very humble.

[88] This is life telling you how to be humble.

[89] I think I'm the most humble person in the world.

[90] You know, you master humility.

[91] Like, motherfucker.

[92] Black Belt and humility.

[93] Where are you from?

[94] No, I know this, New Mexico.

[95] Yeah, New Mexico originally, I'm impressed.

[96] There's not a lot to work with in your Wikipedia.

[97] I just got to complain publicly.

[98] It's true.

[99] At some point, I need to go in and actually put some stuff.

[100] I don't know what your parents do.

[101] I don't know what town in New Mexico.

[102] Well, good.

[103] We'll get a lot of new info.

[104] Now I live in Santa Cruz.

[105] Okay, wonderful.

[106] Do you love it there?

[107] So we moved there three years ago from Brooklyn.

[108] My wife is a marine biologist.

[109] I had made her move to New York, not great for marine biologies.

[110] She had done her grad work up in Monterey.

[111] So we moved back there.

[112] We have a 12 year old and a 15 year old.

[113] Okay, great.

[114] So yes, Santa Cruz.

[115] Have you spent time up there?

[116] I bought a half pound of mushrooms there when I was 24.

[117] Only a half.

[118] But let me tell you, a half pound of mushrooms is two full gallon size Ziploc bags.

[119] Wow.

[120] Yes.

[121] How long did that last?

[122] My best friend, Aaron, and I kept, I guess it would have been a quarter pound for our own consumption.

[123] And then we sold the other quarter pound.

[124] Statute a limitation.

[125] In Michigan, it was impossible then to get Santa Cruz, you trip over mushrooms.

[126] Literally a half pound.

[127] They're like, that's your hors d 'oeuvre.

[128] The one is your.

[129] Also, it was like 10 X is cheap in Santa Cruz.

[130] And then we did imbibe there and walked around the Redwoods.

[131] It was awesome.

[132] So that's my singular Santa Cruz experience.

[133] And do you surf?

[134] I don't.

[135] Okay.

[136] Do you?

[137] I do.

[138] Yeah.

[139] Yeah.

[140] I mean, my wife.

[141] And we only picked it up 10 years ago.

[142] So, like, I'm a late in life coming to surfing.

[143] Did you start in the wake of that documentary happiness where it said it was like probably the most endorphin -inducing activity.

[144] Oh, really?

[145] Yeah, it's supposed to be like that.

[146] Because it's combining physical activity with also you're in nature.

[147] There's a lot of things happening.

[148] I'm a terrible surfer.

[149] But as someone who, I mean, I know that you're athletic.

[150] I just lift weights.

[151] Don't get ahead of yourself.

[152] She's a state champion.

[153] You snowboard.

[154] I am humble, so I won't say.

[155] I've never been particularly athletic or good at it.

[156] And on a surfboard, I feel graceful for the first time in my life.

[157] It feels like you're embodying poetry.

[158] Yeah.

[159] I think snowboarding is kind of the same, right?

[160] That's my hunch.

[161] You have to work with the...

[162] Yeah, you ride it.

[163] It's not...

[164] You can't control it.

[165] You have to, like, dance with that.

[166] It's not a photon.

[167] You're giving in to gravity.

[168] Did your wife see Free Willy and then want to go into Marine Biologist?

[169] Like, what was her inciting incident that sent her into that?

[170] It had to be something in media, right?

[171] So she grew up in Saudi Arabia.

[172] She's a third generation born in the Middle East of Western parents.

[173] Oh, wow.

[174] And so her dad would take her spearfishing in the Red Sea and all these places.

[175] Maldives is close to there -ish.

[176] Definitely compared to us.

[177] And she just fell in love with, like, the underwater world.

[178] And the funny thing is, so marine biologist is not actually a job.

[179] She's a professor of marine genetics at the university.

[180] But what's really interesting is that whenever I describe her as a marine biologist, because I'm proud of her, the number of people who are like, oh, I almost became a marine biologist.

[181] No, I was going to say this.

[182] This is something every five -year -old thinks they want to be.

[183] I would parallel with the dolphin tattoo on females' backs.

[184] Like there's something.

[185] Everyone had a face.

[186] I want a tattoo.

[187] I want a dolphin.

[188] Yeah.

[189] It's so original, right?

[190] I don't know where it came to me. I was just sitting there and I was like on the small of my back.

[191] Yes.

[192] Or my ankle.

[193] I think it would look cool.

[194] I don't know where I got this idea.

[195] Maybe a dolphin.

[196] And then dudes are like, give me something tribal.

[197] Yeah.

[198] I want to look like I'm from the islands.

[199] That's exactly.

[200] You can say that because you did it.

[201] If there's someone who says tribal, it's this pudgy white guy.

[202] guy, you know, with the gray and his beard.

[203] You and I both scream indigenous.

[204] So, wow, this sounds like a really idealic life to be living up in Santa Cruz.

[205] I did have a question.

[206] I do want to know about New Mexico, but when you wrote for the L .A. Times, do you live here?

[207] So I actually lived, like, a mile from here.

[208] You did?

[209] I used to go to birds all the time.

[210] Oh, sure.

[211] Yeah.

[212] This was like 20 years ago.

[213] This was so long ago.

[214] Did you like it here?

[215] I love living in L .A. I loved writing for the L .A. Times.

[216] I mean, I love New York, too.

[217] New York is an amazing city.

[218] But L .A. has this hidden energy.

[219] It's like a thousand cities, right?

[220] Yeah.

[221] It is.

[222] And so you can dip into all of them.

[223] Polycentric multi -nodal that's from an LA geography class.

[224] Wow.

[225] That's pretty good.

[226] That's pretty good.

[227] You pulled that out like nobody's business.

[228] Thank you.

[229] It was as it was coming out.

[230] I wasn't sure about it.

[231] But back to the humility.

[232] Monica's like, oh, God.

[233] I'm going to edit it.

[234] I do want to shoot as you as you should.

[235] We're going to go back to New Mexico because we're at L .A. Times.

[236] One thing I was immediately curious about it is you wrote there of course but then you also wrote the new york times for quite a stretch like 14 years yeah 14 years so how did the two cultures differ and i'll say the l .a times when i was there is a very different newspaper than it is today right because there's been all these ownership issues it was before it was bought by a chain so it was still owned by folks who felt very local about l a when i got the job at the new york times and i was at the l .a times i called up a guy who had made that same transition and i asked him and i was like what's the difference and he was like at the l .a times and in la you are always the ugliest person in the room, but people will come talk to you because they think it's interesting that you're a journalist.

[237] Uh -huh.

[238] They want attention.

[239] What a funny.

[240] And at the New York Times, you will definitely not be the ugliest person in the room.

[241] Right.

[242] And no one will want to talk to you ever.

[243] Yeah.

[244] I have zero interest because they're off making guillions of dollars or whatever.

[245] Yeah.

[246] That's good summation of New York in L .A., which is like you could try to get someone attention on the street in New York.

[247] It's not happening.

[248] We're on fire.

[249] You could be offering $100 bills.

[250] People are just like, I don't fucking see you.

[251] I'm keep walking.

[252] Whereas in L .A., they'll stop and talk to you.

[253] And then they'll be like, you know, if you just lost 10 pounds, you would look a lot better.

[254] People want to talk to you because you could be the one to give them their big break.

[255] That's true.

[256] Or like you never know what you might be able to get from someone.

[257] Because, to be honest, Charles, it does also look like you could have created a TV show.

[258] You very much look like a writer.

[259] Showrunner.

[260] I think what you're saying is, I think what you're saying is, I. I have a face for radio?

[261] No. You look like you belong in a writing room.

[262] No, you're very handsome and rugged looking, but you look like a writer.

[263] This could be like sure.

[264] So that adds up.

[265] But I mean a TV writer.

[266] Yeah, but it's one and the same.

[267] That's true.

[268] Was there varying levels of pride about the institution itself?

[269] Because for me, New York Times feels like as much as we have of a me, a megalith in this country of literary tradition.

[270] Of course, you're at the only one that's crazier than that the New Yorker now.

[271] But how did that vary?

[272] I mean, there's this thing that happens when you go to the New York Times, which is that, first of all, people who wouldn't return your call before suddenly, not only will return your call, they will call you with a story.

[273] So I would lose out to stories all the time.

[274] And they were like, it's the New York Times advantage.

[275] They literally called them and just handed it to them.

[276] So once I was on the other side of that, that was great.

[277] But the other thing is there is this sense of importance slash self -importance at the New York Times.

[278] It's very hard to navigate around.

[279] Because if you're putting someone on the front page of the New York Times, this could be a life -changing moment for them.

[280] And so you have to be really careful.

[281] With great power comes great responsibility.

[282] And the only time you're like, I don't know, maybe we'll read this edition or not.

[283] We're not sure.

[284] Some of these things work.

[285] Did I get it next to the cooking thing?

[286] So maybe people will see it.

[287] Where do you think L .A. Times ranks in cachet in the national newspapers?

[288] I mean, the problem is the newspaper industry has basically died.

[289] There was something like 2 ,000 local newspapers shut down in the last four years.

[290] It is crazy.

[291] If you want to go commit graft or be corrupt in a city, now's the time, man. Nobody's watching.

[292] Right.

[293] I think what's happened is that there's the Post, the Times, the Wall Street Journal, the L .A. Times.

[294] I don't even know if there's another newspaper.

[295] Yeah, maybe.

[296] Boston.

[297] The Globe.

[298] Yeah.

[299] And magazines, there's like, obviously the New Yorker, the Atlantic.

[300] I still read Wired.

[301] And I actually have this question for you guys, because you guys are at the White Heart Center of the new culture.

[302] Do you think people want to read books anymore?

[303] I do.

[304] It's my resolution.

[305] But the fact that you made a resolution means you're not doing it on your own.

[306] I'm not.

[307] I kind of have two answers for that.

[308] Also, are we going to incorporate listening to them?

[309] I think so.

[310] Yeah, like consuming books, I think should be the measure.

[311] Yes, I agree.

[312] But I'll give you a great example.

[313] So we have Matthew McConaughey in recently.

[314] And his memoir, I believe, is the most successful memoir in the last 20 years.

[315] and it has sold 3 million copies.

[316] Then we had our friend Jedediah Jenkins, whose father wrote these series of books about walking across America in the 70s from which that part of Forrest Gump was based.

[317] And you haven't heard of him.

[318] No. Those books sold 15 million in the 70s.

[319] So clearly the metrics would suggest it's gone downhill.

[320] But yet, probably I'm in a silo.

[321] I read a ton of books.

[322] Everyone I know is generally talking about books they've read.

[323] The people that listen to this show read a ton of books.

[324] I don't know.

[325] I guess it's hard to have it.

[326] I guess the numbers would suggest.

[327] I think people still want to learn and take an information, but reading has gone by the wayside and the way to do it.

[328] People get quick information from TikTok and social media, and they'll read the headline of the New York Times and skim.

[329] But sitting with a book feels so daunting in this current attention era.

[330] And I think that actually one of the things, I have this hypothesis, and I don't know if this is true, is that people just need a certain number of stories in their lives and books used to provide stories, right?

[331] You read Malcolm Gladwell, you read a big idea book and it had all these stories in it, and that's what I try and do with my books.

[332] But I think that that itch for story is increasingly being filled by podcasts.

[333] Yeah.

[334] Right?

[335] Because podcasts have great stories.

[336] Or that itch for hanging out with people you like, because I can listen to you guys while I'm driving down the road, and it just feels like I'm with friends.

[337] You get hopefully both things.

[338] And you're delivering actual ideas to me. And TV is so much better now than it was 20 years ago, right?

[339] A thousand percent.

[340] Like, there's so many stories, yeah.

[341] And so as a result, I think that people are getting their story fix in other places.

[342] The only upside of all this, I would say, is that I do think reading now, because we do this other thing so much, in the 80s when you read a book is like, yeah, this is boring too, and I'm calm.

[343] Yeah.

[344] It wasn't relative to anything else.

[345] Whereas now I think when you read a book, at least for myself, it's taken on this other property, which is almost meditative.

[346] It puts me into a space in my brain that I'm not in as much as I used to be with less stimulation.

[347] It's like therapeutic more than ever.

[348] Okay, so let me ask you another question.

[349] Sorry, I'm asking.

[350] You're the interview.

[351] This is so fun.

[352] I regret doing any research.

[353] Since the book I wrote is about communication, I was actually really looking forward to coming on because you guys do long shows.

[354] You're always present throughout the entire show.

[355] I never get the sense that you're thinking in your head, like, I got to ask this question.

[356] and I got to push it this way.

[357] Have you become super communicators through the show, or were you a super communicator before the show?

[358] Good question.

[359] I'll let Monica answer first.

[360] I'll answer for you.

[361] Well, no. Yeah, a little bit.

[362] Well, I think you've been an incredible communicator before we started this.

[363] I think we've both gotten a lot better, but I think you have that innate ability.

[364] I would say that's definitely a strength of mine.

[365] And I was disheartened to see that one of the original questions you propose in the book is to say, when you've had a problem, think of who you've called recently.

[366] Were they the funniest?

[367] Were they the most entertaining?

[368] You basically listen to what I would think is like my other qualities.

[369] You're like, no, you'd call the person.

[370] So in some ways, I imagine I challenge your paradigm.

[371] So you're probably an exception to the paradigm.

[372] But it's a great point.

[373] Most people, when we have a problem, we don't call someone who's like a movie star.

[374] You don't even call the smartest person.

[375] No. You call that person who's a super communicator.

[376] I'm going to try an idea and you tell me if I'm getting it right.

[377] Yeah.

[378] Even though you are smart and funny, probably the.

[379] reason those people call you is because they feel like you're really listening to them.

[380] You hear what they're saying and you're trying to see things through their perspective.

[381] Do you think that's right?

[382] I do this feels so self -indulgent, but let's do it because we're fucking here and I'm going to answer your question.

[383] I have a few explanations.

[384] I have been for 20 years.

[385] I sit and listen to men share.

[386] That clearly has done something.

[387] My dad was a good communicator.

[388] My mom's a good communicator.

[389] Additionally, I have all this trauma.

[390] So I'm hypervigilant.

[391] Sure, I'm listening to you very carefully, but I'm not going to say it's entirely altruistic.

[392] I'm watching you like a fucking hawk.

[393] Are you a liability?

[394] Are you going to do something strange?

[395] What's happening next?

[396] So I think some of it's coming out of a pathology.

[397] But that's actually what a super communicator does, because in addition to listening closely, they're paying attention to what the other person is transmitting beyond just the words that are coming out of my mouth.

[398] And we can talk a little bit more about this later.

[399] There's these three kinds of conversations that most of us fall into.

[400] And the thing is that it's sometimes hard to figure out which kind of a conversation we're in, but people who just train themselves.

[401] By the way, anyone can be a super communicator.

[402] Like, it's just a set of skills that you learn.

[403] Right.

[404] There's no biological disposition for this.

[405] No, not at all, or even a certain personality.

[406] But I think what you just said that you're watching me like a hawk without making me feel like I'm being interrogated or watch like a hawk.

[407] That's really important because if you say something, I'm like, you're going to pick up.

[408] Yeah, I'm not going to miss anything.

[409] Yeah.

[410] And so as a result, not only can you match me. If I just sent you a little micro message like, I'm kind of uncomfortable, you can invite that into the room.

[411] Charles, the funnest moments we've had on the entire show in six years, or at least from my perspective, have been those little things where I just saw someone's eyes move a tiny bit, and then they moved on for a second.

[412] And then I said, hold on, let's go back.

[413] Something just happened, and I would love to get into that.

[414] And it's generally, too, it's another hypervigilant person.

[415] Interesting.

[416] So the one that pops out is Machine Gun Kelly.

[417] and I said something and then he just had the tiniest eye twitch and then he proceeded on and then I said what happened a minute ago and then he was cool enough to go through it and he was hyper but like when he walked in this room he looked in every corner of it and kind of scope that there were windows over there and the doors there and it was quite obvious like okay this dude needs to know how to get out of here if shit goes sideways right I guess if your first name's machine gun they probably get like it's probably yeah it's like on brand you know but all this This is so fascinating, and you've already introduced the three different kinds of conversations you could find yourself.

[418] Your first name's machine.

[419] You got to wonder, whatever his parents are thinking.

[420] I think we should first lay out what the incentive would be for someone to even explore this.

[421] Why would someone take the time to even evaluate their communication and or try to better it?

[422] I mean, what's interesting is you mentioning that you pick up on that, like, little, Twitch, right?

[423] That you're looking for that.

[424] That's actually why your friends call you when they're feeling bad is because you help them understand themselves.

[425] When you think about humans, communication is our superpower.

[426] The reason humans have succeeded as a species is because we can talk to each other.

[427] And by talking to each other, we can share knowledge, we can form communities, we can form families.

[428] Pass on knowledge, pass on culture.

[429] Exactly.

[430] Communication is at the core.

[431] And by the way, our brain has evolved to be really good at communication.

[432] That's why we all have the potential to be super communicators because we all have the circuitry there.

[433] We all have the instincts.

[434] We just have to understand how to let them out.

[435] And I think people would overlook how much communication is a part of their job.

[436] Oh, absolutely.

[437] I think there are people that would be like, well, no, I install mufflers at Midas.

[438] Communication is really not all that essential to this endeavor.

[439] Until your boss comes over and is like, hey, can you go work on this car instead of that car?

[440] And you're like, whatever jerk, when you get fired.

[441] To say it's everything is not an exaggeration.

[442] Well, relationships are everything.

[443] between humans and that's exactly right.

[444] That's the only way to succeed in a relationship is have good communication.

[445] So you mentioned AA.

[446] I wrote this book called The Power of Habit and there's a whole chapter.

[447] Very successful book, let's say, is on all the bestseller lists.

[448] It's great.

[449] 2012?

[450] Yeah, a decade ago.

[451] And there's a chapter on AA.

[452] How does AA work?

[453] What's the history of AA?

[454] And the thing that's amazing to me, I've been to a number of meetings just because I think everyone should go to an AA meeting at least once.

[455] I think it's like the most powerful thing you can do.

[456] You go into a room, you literally just hear someone communicate with you.

[457] You connect with even if you're not speaking back, and that changes your addiction.

[458] That changes what you can do in this world.

[459] That changes what cravings you can fight and what you can embrace about yourself.

[460] That's amazing.

[461] Yeah, what was your conclusion about the proprietary thing that's happening?

[462] When I try to explain the magic of AA, it's not just that you're listening.

[463] You're almost listening as an outside observer in that your own self -defences are not enacted.

[464] because the share is not directed at you personally.

[465] So it's this bizarre privileged position to listen to someone's most intimate thing, but you're not on the hook for anything.

[466] You will not be asked to engage.

[467] It lowers all your defenses.

[468] Like, you're not talking to me. So when you tell me, you know, I have a problem with my wife.

[469] I don't assume you think I have the same.

[470] That's the weird magic of it.

[471] It's like nothing personal is being triggered.

[472] Your identity is not being threatened.

[473] You're not defensive.

[474] You're able to observe as if you're watching TV safely.

[475] That's really insightful.

[476] I had not thought of that until just now.

[477] Okay.

[478] Should we do an addendum to the book?

[479] Yes, absolutely.

[480] We got a new chapter for the book.

[481] So I think one of the things that's happening there is that what super communicators can do really well is they can disappear into the conversation.

[482] So they're not thinking about what they're going to say next.

[483] They're not thinking about how they present themselves.

[484] They're not thinking about, here's the tricks I'm going to use.

[485] They're very much in the flow.

[486] There's actually a neural, it's called neural entrainment.

[487] There's a connectivity that happens between people.

[488] Neural simultaneity.

[489] Yeah, neural simultaneity.

[490] Yeah, it's a tough word.

[491] It's a tough word.

[492] It's a tough word.

[493] Tough one to spell.

[494] I know.

[495] I know.

[496] Because it's supposed to be I before E except for after C, but it's not.

[497] That's where the spell check comes up.

[498] Yes.

[499] If we could measure this, what we'd see in this conversation, because I think we're connected, our pupils are dilating at the same rate.

[500] Oh, wow.

[501] Our breath patterns without us noticing it are matching each other.

[502] In our brain, if we could do brain scans of the three of us, we'd see that our brains start looking similar.

[503] Literally the neural activity starts looking similar.

[504] That's what communication is.

[505] I think of an idea, I feel an emotion, I describe it to you, and you think about it, or you feel it.

[506] But is that why, like, cults happen?

[507] Like all tools, communication is a tool, right?

[508] You can use an axe to build a house or to go chop off someone's head.

[509] Get Lizzie Borden's mom in the crowd.

[510] I mean, these are super communicators, cult leaders, and, like, Trump.

[511] Oh, my God.

[512] Who are you going to whisper?

[513] He doesn't like to go political, but hello.

[514] We had a president.

[515] Somebody say any president is a super communicator.

[516] One specifically got a lot of people's brains to move in a direction.

[517] We have a lot of defenses for interpersonal communication against this manipulation.

[518] Okay.

[519] Basically, we can detect inauthenticity really, really well.

[520] Okay.

[521] That's why it's hard to be a great actor.

[522] Oh, that's interesting.

[523] There's any number of millions that have tried it, but it's not memorizing the words.

[524] We are the best lie detectors on planet Earth.

[525] We can see bullshit.

[526] Yeah.

[527] To your point, is this something that creates cults?

[528] Yes.

[529] But it's also the thing that allows us to develop relationships with other people.

[530] I am married to my wife because of conversations we have had.

[531] And I can tell you the top ten.

[532] And none of them were easy.

[533] And they were all conversations where I learned something about myself based on what I said and based on what she said.

[534] Those are the most.

[535] It's like a dream husband.

[536] He knows the top ten conversing.

[537] And knows how to communicate.

[538] Let me just say.

[539] So this book was born in part by fights I had with my wife, where I was like the asshole.

[540] Yeah.

[541] But great to admit that.

[542] Now, now I've admitted it.

[543] I called her yesterday and I was like, I'm going to describe this one fight we had.

[544] And she was like, we weren't fighting for the reason you thought we were fighting.

[545] Oh, that's great.

[546] We were fighting because you were being a jerk.

[547] Is that in your book?

[548] You got a chapter on just being a straight up asshole without any neurology.

[549] Back to the thing you were just saying, though, how we'll match each other.

[550] You give a great example in the book when they do fMRIs of musicians that are playing by themselves.

[551] And they have completely unique and fingerprinty type brain.

[552] activity and then when they start doing a duet now all of a sudden oh that's so cool they look exactly the same there's another study where they basically had this woman tell a story about her prom night and it was this long complicated story that went on for like 20 minutes and they had people listening to it they could tell who understood the story best by how closely their brain matched the speaker's brain without even listening right there's these little details there's little characters and if my brain matches yours, I have heard that story.

[553] I remember that character, but more importantly, I understand why you told me about that character.

[554] Yeah, well, you say when you get to this neural what's the word we want to say?

[555] Entrainment.

[556] Yeah, but the word we hated.

[557] Oh, synchronicity.

[558] No. Neurosynchronity.

[559] Simultane.

[560] Neurosimilarity.

[561] Something.

[562] No, you're forcing me to look at the piece of paper.

[563] We just said it's hard to spell.

[564] Simultaneity or whatever.

[565] Neural simultaneity.

[566] Simultaneity.

[567] When you reach that neural simulatineate.

[568] naity, you listen better, but you also speak clearer.

[569] That's exactly right.

[570] You know how to say something so someone is going to listen to you.

[571] For the same reason that when you're picking up on stuff about me or Machine Gun Kelly or whoever it is, and you ask me a question, the way you ask me that question is tied into what I'm thinking and feeling, right?

[572] If you were just like Machine Gun, it looked like your eyes went off to the side.

[573] Tell me what's going on there.

[574] He's stoned.

[575] Yeah, right, exactly.

[576] Wait, I know you're stoned.

[577] Is anything else happening?

[578] But you probably ask that question.

[579] question in a way that made it feel really safe for him to answer it.

[580] And that's really important.

[581] We should earmark that because I think that's another element of what happens in here that happens in AA, which is people are also inclined to match other people's vulnerability.

[582] There's some weird ethical, we have it.

[583] It's one of the most beautiful parts of ourselves.

[584] I remember the very first time I ever admitted I had been molested was in response to a girl telling me she had been raped.

[585] And I was like, oh my God, that's so brave she said this.

[586] I'm the first person she ever told.

[587] I'm holding the secret.

[588] I owe her this.

[589] I don't know that I ever would have admitted it other than she just had shown me that trust and I owed it to her.

[590] What I love about that is that in the psychological literature, that's actually referred to as emotional or vulnerability reciprocation.

[591] And it's exactly what you just said.

[592] So there is this thing that's hardwired in our head by evolution.

[593] Vulnerability is the loudest thing that someone can do.

[594] If someone is saying something vulnerable, we cannot help but listen to them.

[595] Even if we want to ignore them.

[596] In politics, this is why it happens, right?

[597] In movies, because if you think about it, when you're evolving, when somebody is expressing vulnerability, it means either you can attack them, they're being attacked and you need to protect them.

[598] It's so loud because it's so hard.

[599] The only time someone would be vulnerable is that they have something important to say.

[600] So our brain actually will latch onto vulnerability.

[601] But you're exactly right.

[602] There's this emotional reciprocation that when I hear vulnerability, I feel like I owe it to this person to listen and to be vulnerable in reply.

[603] And it's an open door.

[604] It's like, oh, this is the chance.

[605] Most people want to be vulnerable.

[606] It's just really hard.

[607] Yeah.

[608] And so if somebody else is doing it, you feel like they kind of gave you permission to do it.

[609] And every mistake I've made in communication, when I look back on it, one night I sort of wrote this long list of all the past year, all the things.

[610] This is why I wrote the book is because I wanted to learn how to do this better.

[611] Basically, every communication mistake I've made comes down to not recognizing someone's vulnerability or recognizing it and ignoring it.

[612] not reciprocating, not taking seriously that debt that I owe them.

[613] Well, then, okay, so now let's get into there's three different kinds of conversation because, as we just talked about, there's a bunch of neurology involved, and different areas of your brain are responsible for different types of communication.

[614] So, of course, someone speaking out of their amygdala is not going to be communicating with someone that's in their frontal lobe to another person that's in the hippocampus.

[615] Those three areas of the brain don't speak the same language.

[616] That's exactly right.

[617] They're literally speaking different cognitive languages.

[618] So what researchers have found, we're living through this kind of golden age of understanding communication because of advances in neuroimaging and data collection.

[619] And what they found is that we think of a discussion as one thing, but actually every single discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations.

[620] And in general, most of those conversations fall into one of three buckets.

[621] There's these practical conversations where we're trying to figure out, what are we actually talking about, or we're trying to make a plan together, or we're trying to solve a problem.

[622] There's like decision making.

[623] Exactly.

[624] That's the prefrontal cortex.

[625] Then there's these emotional conversations where I come in and I say something emotional and I don't want you to solve my problem.

[626] Now, this is the most generic male -female genderized debate ever.

[627] I'm just going to guess.

[628] I don't know how gender works out in your relationship.

[629] Oh, feel free to bet your life on it.

[630] I'm sure you're going to get it right.

[631] Your wife brings you a problem and you try and solve it.

[632] That's right.

[633] And then she gets pissed off.

[634] I try to figure out how to prevent her from ever feeling this way again.

[635] I've got a solution.

[636] You'll never have to feel this way again because I'm terrified of your emotions.

[637] I just want you to listen to how I feel.

[638] And be compassionate and be present to have an emotional conversation with me. And then there's these social conversations, which are about how we relate to other people and how we relate to society, how we think society sees us.

[639] It's a huge part of where identity becomes this huge pillar.

[640] And what researchers have found is what's known as the matching principle, that if your wife comes to you and wants to have an emotional conversation and you reply with a practical conversation, you're both having legitimate conversations.

[641] You will not hear each other.

[642] And more importantly, you will inflame each other.

[643] I will feel like you're ignoring me. even if you're like, I want to solve your problem.

[644] Yeah, why aren't you just acknowledging if you put your phone on the nightstand every time you'll never have to look for it again?

[645] Right.

[646] Why are you crying about this?

[647] Yeah.

[648] This is the most obvious solution is on your lap.

[649] Why aren't you picking it up?

[650] And so part of it is just developing a slight habit.

[651] This is what super communicators do.

[652] They have this slight habit just to pick up on what kind of conversation is happening.

[653] So if I said something vulnerable right now, my guess is the two of you, you would respond with vulnerability.

[654] You would know that I'm having an emotional conversation.

[655] You'd meet me there without even thinking about it.

[656] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[657] We've all been there.

[658] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[659] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky, few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[660] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[661] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[662] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[663] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[664] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[665] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon music.

[666] What's up, guys?

[667] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[668] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[669] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[670] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[671] And I don't mean just friends.

[672] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[673] The list goes on.

[674] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[675] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[676] The identity thing is really fascinating and I think it's what obviously plagues any political debate and I think people, we've talked about it on here a ton of times over the last six years, but obviously once your identity is being, from your perspective, threatened, this is a life or death thing.

[677] Now, this is straight amygdala.

[678] You're not going to get the frontal lobe involved in this debate.

[679] Now, this is survival.

[680] This is in -group, out -group.

[681] This is like the most primitive shit imaginable.

[682] And I would imagine, not to say one's the most important, but really recognize when what you're doing is igniting someone's or challenging someone's sense of identity.

[683] Challenging someone's sense of identity rather than acknowledging it.

[684] Right.

[685] Right.

[686] So there's been a bunch of studies that have looked at conversations, particularly between white people and black people because of the post -George Floyd period.

[687] And what they found is that people's instincts are often to not acknowledge race.

[688] I sit down, you're my black friend.

[689] And even if I don't say I'm colorblind, we sit down and we're having a conversation and I'm not going to be like, you know, as the black dude, what do you think about this?

[690] So what's really important is to just acknowledge that we have differences.

[691] And those differences are actually pretty awesome.

[692] They're super interesting.

[693] And then the other thing that's important is to recognize that everyone at that table has an identity.

[694] So very often I think in conversations, particularly if it's a group of white people and they're talking about something and there's one black guy there, something about race comes up and everyone turns to him and that feels terrible for him sure sure but it also means that everyone else at that table their racial identity is not being brought into the conversation now sometimes that's appropriate right because we want to create space for marginalized folks to have a voice and they've been excluded but if the goal of the conversation is to understand each other you need to have everyone in that conversation and identities are critical you know I was on parenthood my wife on the show was black joy Bryant one of my very best friends in the world and we were together always week long for six years, and we never, ever stop talking about race.

[695] It's our favorite conversation.

[696] It's found it endlessly fascinating.

[697] There was this level of trust and understanding between us.

[698] It was so enjoyable for both of us.

[699] She's curious and confused by so many of the things I'm doing.

[700] I have quite, why is it a car note, not a car payment?

[701] Why is there Vaseline in the wintertime on the cheeks?

[702] I lived in Detroit.

[703] What's that all about?

[704] It was endless for me and endless for her.

[705] That for us was the bedrock of the friendship, was constantly acknowledging that.

[706] Because you're both allowed to bring your true selves to the conversation, right?

[707] Right.

[708] Monica, you're a brown person, right?

[709] I'm a white guy.

[710] Dax is a white guy.

[711] We're talking about race to not acknowledge that you have had a different experience than we have.

[712] Exactly, yeah.

[713] And that's super interesting.

[714] I want to know what that is.

[715] Totally.

[716] I think it depends.

[717] It's like with joy, you two knew there was no judgment.

[718] You have to know that in order to be able to have a real conversation with someone or else you're going.

[719] going to get defensive.

[720] And you guys also were the same on the level of power.

[721] Like you guys both had the same job.

[722] Same size trailer.

[723] Those things matter.

[724] If someone's talking down to you, if someone's your boss and they're talking to you in a certain way, that's different.

[725] Well, I think it's safe to say even your eyes comfort level with discussing your Indianness has evolved over the last eight years.

[726] I think it's gone up and down.

[727] Oh, tell me. When we first started becoming friends, we talked so openly about so much stuff.

[728] Yeah.

[729] And then when we became very good friends, it almost got in some ways harder because if there was a challenge, it felt like, oh, no, if he doesn't get it, then how could I still be friends with this person?

[730] Yeah.

[731] Whereas when you're first getting to know someone and first understanding them, the stakes are not that high.

[732] Yeah.

[733] That's really interesting.

[734] come back.

[735] I just think it's more complicated.

[736] And there is some research on how to make this easier.

[737] What most of the studies say, a tough conversation like this about identity, if you start it by saying, I'm just want to acknowledge upfront, this is going to be an awkward conversation.

[738] And by the way, I'm going to sound stupider than I am.

[739] I don't have any of this worked out.

[740] Yeah.

[741] And you're probably going to say things that you don't mean it, don't mean what you're actually saying.

[742] And by the way, here's an obstacle we might hit.

[743] Right.

[744] Like, I'm worried that if you say something, maybe it's going to prove that you're racist and you're my friend and I don't want to think that you're a racist.

[745] And what do we do when we get to that point?

[746] Yeah.

[747] How do we plan in advance to overcome it?

[748] Also, I am.

[749] We all are.

[750] Yeah.

[751] At some scale, I am.

[752] That's absolutely right.

[753] And that'll pop up.

[754] And then you'll correct me, you know.

[755] Yes.

[756] But I'm most certainly going to step in it.

[757] I think in that moment when you do that, it's very popular to say intentions don't matter.

[758] But I really actually believe what you're doing is you're pretty clearly stating your intention, which is like, I want to come to understand you.

[759] And I'm not going to do a very good job en route to it.

[760] But I want you to know my goal.

[761] is to do that and not to label you or dismiss you or judge you for something.

[762] I just really want to know and that's my intention and I'm going to do it in eloquently.

[763] The thing that's really important about that I think you put very well is the goal of a successful conversation is a conversation where you understand each other.

[764] It is not a conversation where you convince each other.

[765] It is not a conversation even where you come to agreement on something.

[766] Right?

[767] Totally.

[768] Totally.

[769] Well, this is the Netflix example.

[770] Exactly.

[771] This has got to be the best one.

[772] Yeah, walk people through Sure.

[773] So there was this VP of communications who during a meeting used the N -word.

[774] He was sort of explaining a situation, and he said, it's as if someone who is African -American had heard the word, and then he said it.

[775] Okay.

[776] And at the time, Netflix has this culture where you're supposed to say anything.

[777] You're supposed to challenge each other all the time, attack each other.

[778] And one of the things that happens is that this incident is like a spark to set off the civil war, where basically there's a people who are like, look, we have problems with race at Netflix that we have not been acknowledging.

[779] And other people who are like, we don't have any problems with race.

[780] It's just that you don't work hard enough.

[781] And that's why you haven't gotten promoted.

[782] Right.

[783] And Netflix has no idea how to deal with this.

[784] This is tearing the company apart.

[785] They eventually fired the guy.

[786] It took them four months to fire the guy.

[787] The whole time, there's this internal debate going on across the entire company.

[788] I talked to him.

[789] I talked to the executive as part of my reporting.

[790] He's a former Wall Street Journal reporter.

[791] This has all been written about in the newspapers.

[792] there's no anonymity.

[793] He says to me, like, I'd been living abroad for years as a foreign correspondent.

[794] I didn't realize that you had to say the N -word now, that there was a sensitivity.

[795] When I was growing up, you could say that word as long as you didn't say it as a slur.

[796] And then he said, and the problem is, I think it's totally unfair to judge people by their worst day.

[797] Like, I made one mistake, and the rest of my accomplished life gets ignored by it.

[798] By the way, there were iterations of it.

[799] There was moments in my 25 years here in Hollywood where it's like, if you were directly quoting somebody who said something, you would do it.

[800] I wouldn't do that now.

[801] But there was a time where it was like, I'm not saying that thing.

[802] I'm telling you what was said.

[803] Or in scripts, I'm sure.

[804] Yes.

[805] If you're writing for a black character who's in a verbal dust up with someone else, the reality is that word's coming out a bunch.

[806] Yeah.

[807] So what do you do as the writer?

[808] So what's interesting is about how Netflix resolved this.

[809] Because as the company is getting torn apart, so they hire this woman, Vernay Myers, who's a wonderful woman, she's basically spent her whole life thinking about how to have conversations about diversity.

[810] And she comes in and what she says is we need to have way more conversations about race.

[811] But the way that we're going to do it is we're going to do it in an environment that always feel safe.

[812] And the way we're going to make it safe is first of all, we're going to say this is going to be awkward.

[813] I'm going to make mistakes.

[814] You're going to make mistakes.

[815] By the way, I want people to talk about the racial experiences.

[816] If you're white, you have as much a racial experience as everyone else.

[817] You need to talk about the, and it's unfair to the black or brown person.

[818] Like, you're going to tell us all about race.

[819] Teach us.

[820] Yeah.

[821] So they did that, and that was really effective.

[822] And then they did this other thing that we've seen a lot of conversations, works even beyond the social conversation, the identity conversation.

[823] She asked deep questions.

[824] And you guys do this really, really well on the podcast.

[825] I think you do it without even realizing it.

[826] A deep question is something that asks us about our values, our beliefs, or experiences.

[827] And it can be really simple.

[828] Like if I ask you, what do you do for living and you say I'm a lawyer?

[829] I could say like, oh, did you always want to be a lawyer?

[830] That's about your experiences.

[831] Do you love that job?

[832] I'm asking you about your values.

[833] What made you decide to go to law school?

[834] Was there a moment?

[835] Was there a moment that changed your mind?

[836] Like, I'm getting into some beliefs there, right?

[837] Right.

[838] It's a super easy thing to say.

[839] But when you respond, you are telling me so much about who you are.

[840] And here's the important part.

[841] If it's a conversation about race or something controversial, you're the expert on you.

[842] I can't tell you like, oh, no, you didn't decide to become a lawyer because you saw your dad got arrested.

[843] You decided to become a lawyer for a totally different reason.

[844] Because you want money.

[845] Yeah, right.

[846] I can't second guess your experience is about you.

[847] That's why when you're arguing with your partner, that's why the me statements are so important, which is, this isn't about you.

[848] I'm telling you how I responded, and that can't really be debated.

[849] Now, whether I shut the door with the intention to pitch, that's a debate, but how I felt's not a debate.

[850] And I own that.

[851] I have the right to own that.

[852] And by the way, whatever I'm feeling is probably something you have.

[853] felt in the past.

[854] Whenever I fights with my wife and at some point she says something like I'm feeling really threatened and I'm feeling like I can't say my thing.

[855] I know what that feels like.

[856] Even if we disagree with each other, we have something in common now.

[857] I empathize.

[858] I reciprocate.

[859] I wrote down a little thing because that wasn't where it ended at Netflix because then we also had Chappelle.

[860] Yeah.

[861] So to refresh everyone's memory, his stand -up routine comes out.

[862] People within the company are very upset.

[863] People quit.

[864] There's walkouts.

[865] There's all kinds of things that happen.

[866] They had a town hall and this person said, we had a big town hall after this started, and the rules were made clear at the beginning.

[867] Everyone was allowed to talk, but no shaming or blaming or attacks.

[868] You had to think before you spoke, you had to contribute rather than just criticize.

[869] I just feel like these are the best ground rules.

[870] Yeah, I love that.

[871] I feel so many these debates I hear online, in social media, at campuses, no one's adhering to any fucking rules whatsoever.

[872] And they're not talking about the rules when they start.

[873] Like, if we just sat down and we're like, here's the rules of us talking about religion, we all think they're good, then suddenly we're cooperating.

[874] Right.

[875] When I heard the statement, because this was, as I recall, this is also someone who was quite critical of them allowing the Chappelle thing to exist.

[876] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[877] He helped lead the complaints.

[878] The charge, yeah.

[879] So I do, and again, this is such a stereotype and it's probably offensive.

[880] And I'm probably wrong.

[881] But I do feel like the younger generation seems a little bit like to be heard is to get your way.

[882] There's some expectation that when I say what I say, if you really heard me, and comprehended and took the time, then the outcome should go my way.

[883] And I think that's a weird expectation.

[884] That's not really it.

[885] The only commitment is like, we're going to hear each other and really take a minute to understand where each other's coming from.

[886] But that's not to say, I'm going to reverse my position or that it's going to go your way.

[887] And I don't know if it's the younger people because I think it's aging.

[888] I see it happening with my peers all the time.

[889] And I do it sometimes.

[890] There is this mindset we get into where I sit down with my uncle and he thinks lizard people are taking over the world.

[891] And I'm like, if I can just show him the right evidence, he's going to see that that's crazy.

[892] But the truth is, my uncle has spent 45 hours researching this online.

[893] He knows his own evidence.

[894] Yeah.

[895] And how do I respond to that?

[896] Do I try and change his mind, give him evidence?

[897] No. Instead, I ask a deep question.

[898] I say, I'm just wondering, like, of all the things we can be talking about right now, why is this one so important to you?

[899] I'm really curious, the lizard people, like, what do they mean to you?

[900] And what are they threatening?

[901] What are they going to do?

[902] Yeah.

[903] Yeah.

[904] And he's probably going to say something like, I think that things are stacked against guys like me. I think that like the elites are taking advantage of us.

[905] And at that point, now we can have an emotional conversation about that.

[906] Because I can say, I feel that way sometimes too.

[907] Right.

[908] It's a different group, but I feel that way.

[909] Yeah.

[910] I feel that way about the Plutarchs or whoever.

[911] When we walk away from that conversation, I am not going to believe in the lizard people.

[912] He is not going to think that the lizard people don't exist.

[913] We are going to disagree with each other.

[914] But I understand why.

[915] What fear has been triggered.

[916] Yes.

[917] Or joy or whatever.

[918] whatever it is.

[919] I know.

[920] This is the thing I kept saying during the last election, which I can't believe we're here again.

[921] But I was listening to both sides.

[922] It occurred to me all of a sudden, it's like, neither side's really about anything other than their fears.

[923] Each side is afraid of different things.

[924] Both sides are afraid.

[925] Left's afraid of environmental collapse.

[926] They're afraid of, you know, all kinds of...

[927] Injustice.

[928] I mean, there's a lot.

[929] And the right is terrified that this place that they've known their whole life is not going to exist.

[930] Or the guns, which are something important to me, are going to be taken away from me. If I'm going to just learn to, instead of like, you're full of shit because of blank, it's just, I'm afraid of this.

[931] I can relate to that.

[932] And this happened with COVID.

[933] Oh, yeah, because you have a vaccine chapter.

[934] When COVID started, the vaccine came out.

[935] There were a bunch of anti -vaxxers.

[936] And the CDC said at first, just go give them the evidence.

[937] You're a doctor.

[938] If you just give them the evidence, and that was a total failure, right?

[939] Because the people had done their own research.

[940] They had looked at sources that they believed.

[941] So they completely changed tact, and they taught this method called motivational interviewing.

[942] And in motivational interviewing, what you do is you ask a deep question.

[943] You ask a why question.

[944] You listen for what the person says from a values perspective.

[945] And then you say to them, I feel the same values you do, and I struggle with aligning them.

[946] It's exactly your point, that the world is complicated.

[947] So you just said that you care deeply about your grandchildren and your worried about the world they're inheriting, and yet you're really scared that you want to protect them from vaccines because you think it's going to give them autism.

[948] I hear you.

[949] That is legitimate.

[950] I understand why you feel scared.

[951] I'll tell you what I'm scared about because I care about my kids is that I see all these kids come in.

[952] They aren't vaccinated and there's nothing I can do for them once they're sick.

[953] And I want to believe in freedom.

[954] I'm trying to figure out how do I reconcile freedom with helping protect people when they don't want that protection.

[955] You have experience this.

[956] Like, help me figure this out.

[957] And then the person convinces them.

[958] That's the most effective way to get them to take the vaccine.

[959] Well, during the vaccine thing, the thing that struck me is, like, if you were an alien and you had no emotional attachment to either of these arguments, I'm about to parallel, it would be so blatantly obvious that both people have the exact same view.

[960] And it is abortion and vaccine.

[961] So the right didn't want to vax because they didn't think the government should have control of their body.

[962] The left does not want abortion.

[963] abortion rights to be abolished because they don't think the government should tell them what they should do with their body.

[964] And it's like, how could these two groups who are literally diametrically opposed, who have the exact same argument about these two things, cannot see in each other that those are valid arguments?

[965] And there was a period in our history when that was easier.

[966] I mean, America was born in conversation.

[967] The Constitutional Convention was people who hated each other, arguing with each other.

[968] It's incredible.

[969] Anything got done.

[970] It's amazing.

[971] Abortion is a great example.

[972] Pre -Row versus Wade, if you look at the conversation around abortion, it was much more moderate than it is today.

[973] It was much more people listening to each other.

[974] And there's actually a lot of political scientists who say that Roe v. Wade was bad because it stopped.

[975] The states would have ended up legalizing abortion on their own.

[976] But what's happened today, part of it is technology.

[977] It's inevitable.

[978] But part of it also is just that we've stopped thinking about how to communicate.

[979] We've stopped training kids how to communicate.

[980] I think the most provocative and entertaining explanation as the Malcolm Gladwell one he did on revisionist history last year, which is there was a point in the past where 35 % of us all watched the same TV show on Wednesday night.

[981] And we got on a bus and the person next to us probably saw the cheers finale.

[982] Just that.

[983] Monoculture.

[984] Yeah, the monoculture that the networks themselves were forced to have the dialogue and come up with a compromise before they presented it.

[985] And then we all had that thing in common and that you could actually predict people's voting patterns by how many hours of television they watched in the 80s.

[986] That was the most significant predictor.

[987] It's like, well, there's a weird variable that's also in the mix now.

[988] We all watch our own shows.

[989] And now the biggest variable is whether you went to college or not, and it's for the exact same reason.

[990] Because if I went to college and you did not, we both believe that our lives are totally different.

[991] Now, they might not be.

[992] We're neighbors.

[993] We live right next to each other.

[994] We both have the same commute.

[995] We're still trying to solve our wife's emotional issues with pragmatic solutions.

[996] But like for whatever reason, we've gotten stuck in this viewpoint, instead of bringing it up and saying, hey, you didn't go to college, tell me a little bit about what that decision was like.

[997] Are you happy you made it?

[998] Instead of having that conversation, where actually we would figure out what we have in common, even around this issue, we avoid it because we're terrified that asking the question is going to piss them off or it's going to be awkward or we're not going to know how to end the conversation.

[999] Is there anything in there about taking a couple extra minutes to pursue a path that isn't divisive first?

[1000] example I always give is I go to the sand dunes a lot I'm going next week it's a hundred percent trump flags and I go to this thing you drive out to the middle of the dunes and there's this great swing set and I'm constantly out there and what I see first is these dads put so much effort and to get their kids out here to do this thing I fucking know what that's like they were trying to get them out of the house they've taken the time these are good dads let's just start with that guy with the fucking go brandon flag which I find annoying and embarrassing is a good dad.

[1001] And so is there any strategy or technique suggested about first touching down on a few things we are similar?

[1002] Absolutely.

[1003] And the reason why it's important to do that is not because you have the thing in common.

[1004] So the fact that you're a good dad and that this other guy is a good dad, there's lots of good dads.

[1005] But what's important is that when you bring it up, you're showing him that you actually want to match him.

[1006] You're showing him that you want to connect.

[1007] There's been all these studies that about 80 % of the time we laugh is not in response to something funny.

[1008] 80 % of the we laugh is because we want to show someone that we want to connect with them.

[1009] And then when they laugh back, which we all do, they're showing us that they want to reciprocate.

[1010] They want to connect with us.

[1011] And the thing is, neither of us think something is funny.

[1012] It's the impulse.

[1013] Which in itself is funny.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] But the impulse to show that I want to connect with you.

[1016] So when you talk to a dad and you're like, we both love the white socks or we both love our kids or, oh, you grew up in this place.

[1017] I grew up and you're there.

[1018] It doesn't matter.

[1019] It's not like you both care about that place.

[1020] What you're saying is, I want to connect with you.

[1021] I'm kind of hoping to learn something about you.

[1022] So now why do you feel that way about Trump?

[1023] How about this?

[1024] This feels new that people are, I think, increasingly threatened that people don't think like them.

[1025] That was the most interesting thing about traveling.

[1026] It's actually super interesting that people don't think like you.

[1027] Yeah.

[1028] But now I feel like it's identity first at all times.

[1029] And so someone not thinking like you is threatening.

[1030] which I feel like is new.

[1031] Maybe I wasn't online enough.

[1032] Well, politics have changed a lot, and it does feel more threatening.

[1033] It does feel like they've become more extreme.

[1034] And so if you agree with this president, you're actually signing up for something that could actually hurt me. It is threatening.

[1035] It's not like, oh, yeah, I don't love that idea.

[1036] It's never going to affect me. Is that person threatening?

[1037] That person can be threatening if they're contributing to someone.

[1038] who could hurt me. I get that part, but could they individually?

[1039] Yes, I believe voters have an impact.

[1040] Right.

[1041] So it's already done.

[1042] They voted for Trump.

[1043] Mm -hmm.

[1044] Do they actually, in real life, not theoretically, not down river, does the person who voted for Trump in front of you, are they going to put you in a cage or are they going to oppress you for your race?

[1045] In real life.

[1046] The chance that they might oppress you for your race or say something racist when you've had experiences in life where that's happened, you know.

[1047] know when the chances are higher with each individual person that's in front of you.

[1048] I think my thing is, though, it's like it's such guilt by association.

[1049] So it's like maybe they voted for Trump.

[1050] Let's just be really generous.

[1051] They're a fiscal conservative, right?

[1052] So really, they would never oppress you.

[1053] They're not racist.

[1054] They don't want kids in cages.

[1055] But they were pro -life.

[1056] And that was the only pro -life candidate.

[1057] So by association, you're assuming that person's in lockstep with that other person, which I'm not in lockstep with Biden.

[1058] I voted for him.

[1059] I'm not in lockstep with anyone I voted for.

[1060] I wasn't in lockstep with Obama.

[1061] when he was anti -gay marriage.

[1062] So I'm not going to carry out everything this person I'm associated with is, but we do assume the worst that the other person is carrying the mantle of everything.

[1063] I think that's really important.

[1064] And I think that there's this jump that has become a norm.

[1065] If you're talking to someone they voted for Trump, it's very hard for you, I imagine, to hear that and tell me if I'm getting this wrong.

[1066] To hear that and not feel like, actually, you were doing something that's against my interests.

[1067] Yeah.

[1068] But the next step should be to ask, why?

[1069] Why did you vote for Trump.

[1070] Like, did you want to put people like me?

[1071] And you probably shouldn't ask it like this, right?

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] But we can get there.

[1074] Come in the back door and you figure it out quick.

[1075] You figure it out quick.

[1076] Yeah, yeah.

[1077] When they ask where you're from.

[1078] There's this thing called looping for understanding.

[1079] This changes the goal of the conversation, how you evaluate the success of a conversation.

[1080] Many people feel like if I'm in a conversation, someone says something I disagree with.

[1081] I'm letting myself and my people down if I don't disagree with them.

[1082] This is that great Orna moment with the Palestinian girl.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] She felt like she was betraying her family by trusting this Jewish doctor.

[1085] Right.

[1086] Deep.

[1087] But.

[1088] But, but.

[1089] of course, you're not betraying anyone.

[1090] Yeah.

[1091] Nor is Orna Netanyahu.

[1092] That's really important.

[1093] So for Looping for Understanding, ask a deep question, just something with why.

[1094] Number two, repeat back in your own words, which you heard them say.

[1095] And then number three, and this is the step we usually forget, but it's the magical one, ask them if you got it right.

[1096] Oh.

[1097] Because if you're talking to that guy and he's like, I love Trump.

[1098] He's amazing.

[1099] And you're like, I'm just wondering, can you tell me like.

[1100] What do you like about him?

[1101] Yeah, what do you like about him?

[1102] He grabs him by the pussy.

[1103] Yeah.

[1104] Okay.

[1105] So you're saying.

[1106] I mean, that way you like is that, no, is that he grabs him by the genitals.

[1107] Did I get that right?

[1108] Yeah.

[1109] So my guess is that if that person is like, yeah, you got it exactly right, then you know, I don't want to have a conversation with me. And you don't have to have a conversation with everyone.

[1110] And most certainly many people will fall into the exact thing you're afraid.

[1111] Yes.

[1112] I want to say, I grew up in Georgia.

[1113] I had no choice but to grow up giving everyone the benefit of the doubt.

[1114] Or I would not have had friends.

[1115] I wouldn't have had anyone in my life.

[1116] So I do think I am actually good at it.

[1117] In fact, I'm like, there's no way you can possibly be racist.

[1118] So what is it?

[1119] I'm not comfortable with the idea that these people are against me. Yeah.

[1120] So I'm looking for all the evidence to the contrary normally, if this is someone in my life.

[1121] I don't really care that much about strangers.

[1122] And I think that's something a lot of people, especially young people in their silos, have never experienced.

[1123] They've never had to, for their own survival, fine understanding.

[1124] That is super duper interesting.

[1125] They're just in their own bubbles.

[1126] Who cares?

[1127] You don't have to understand anybody.

[1128] You didn't have the luxury.

[1129] Exactly.

[1130] Right.

[1131] You couldn't just retreat into your community and thrive.

[1132] There wasn't.

[1133] That didn't exist.

[1134] I had to figure out a way to feel like there was love coming from people who weren't like me. Yeah.

[1135] And I already know you've had this experience.

[1136] It's like, you meet people.

[1137] You like them.

[1138] You go by the house.

[1139] You're like, there's a competitor flag in the garage.

[1140] Ooh, okay.

[1141] That's hard to make peace with.

[1142] Does it mean to them what it certainly means to me. Does it mean they think a certain way about me?

[1143] It doesn't seem like it's...

[1144] Are they into the rebel spirit of hunting and fishing?

[1145] And those are actually legitimate questions.

[1146] The best way to confront them is to say, I'm going to ask you an awkward question.

[1147] And I want you to know, I'm probably going to say it wrong, but I really want to understand you.

[1148] Why do you have a Confederate flag?

[1149] I would also add, because I'm scared.

[1150] The vulnerability, please.

[1151] I'm not asking you to judge you.

[1152] I'm asking you because I'm scared.

[1153] I think putting it that way would be great.

[1154] I would actually...

[1155] Go ahead and amend.

[1156] You can break it into two pieces.

[1157] They give you their response.

[1158] You can sort of repeat it back.

[1159] Did I get that right?

[1160] And then say, let me tell you why I asked.

[1161] Or let me tell you how the flag makes me feel because it's clear it makes you feel something really different.

[1162] Right.

[1163] So guns.

[1164] This happens with guns all the time.

[1165] Yes.

[1166] I think unless you're talking to an actual monster, if this little cute girl told me that thing makes her scared and it's my thing, my humanness would be like, oh my gosh, I don't want you to feel scared.

[1167] Like, you don't need to be afraid.

[1168] Could they feel so defensive, though, that they were.

[1169] were a part of making that person feel scared that then they retrieved?

[1170] I think they'd feel defensive if the question is, why would you have that?

[1171] Right.

[1172] But if the question is, why do you like that flag?

[1173] It really scares me. This is why.

[1174] And then you're showing some vulnerability.

[1175] Yeah, exactly.

[1176] Again, unless you're talking to a fucking monster, no one wants a guest in their property to be scared while they're there.

[1177] So you might get the best.

[1178] You're trying to send this message.

[1179] The same way that when we laugh, we're sending a message I want to connect with you.

[1180] You're sending a message.

[1181] I actually want to understand you, and I want us to be closer.

[1182] I'm not asking this question to push us apart.

[1183] I'm asking this question to bring us together.

[1184] And the other person can pick up on that.

[1185] This is hardwired into our brain.

[1186] We detect when other people want to connect.

[1187] We detect authenticity.

[1188] There's actually an awesome study that was done where the researchers recorded a bunch of friends laughing together and a bunch of strangers laughing.

[1189] And then they would play half a second to one second of the laughter.

[1190] And the people who would listen to those tapes could tell with 90 % accuracy the friends from the strangers.

[1191] We just know.

[1192] We know when someone really wants to connect with us.

[1193] We know when they're being authentic.

[1194] This is fun.

[1195] Talking about talking.

[1196] You guys are very good.

[1197] Okay, I do have a couple questions for you guys.

[1198] But hold them because I'm still, you're still here to promote a book.

[1199] We talked about Netflix.

[1200] We talked about vaccines.

[1201] I like that.

[1202] How does the trial of Leroy Reid demonstrate that every conversation is a negotiation?

[1203] Every dialogue that we have, often at some point, is what's known as a quiet negotiation.

[1204] And it's a little bit of a misnomer because we think of negotiations as turning out the best deal.

[1205] A quiet negotiation is totally different.

[1206] And this is what most high -level negotiations are.

[1207] It's about understanding what you want.

[1208] If I sit down at the table with you and I understand what you want and you know what I want, we're going to get to a deal faster, right?

[1209] So a quiet negotiation often takes place.

[1210] Leroy Reid is this guy.

[1211] He's an ex -con.

[1212] He had been arrested and put in jail once before.

[1213] He had gotten out of jail It was unclear if he knew he had committed a crime He was the getaway driver for a friend Who robbed a convenience store Part of it is that Leroy has learning disabilities And so he sees in the back of a magazine This thing that says you can become a private eye What you do is tend in $20 with this form He gets something back It contains a tin badge And instructions that he should run every morning And buy a gun What?

[1214] Oh boy, that third recommendation Yeah, yeah The first two steps are okay Learn on his strangle infants.

[1215] Yeah.

[1216] Excuse me?

[1217] So he goes down to a sporting good store.

[1218] This is in Milwaukee.

[1219] He buys a gun.

[1220] He fills out all the paperwork, totally legal purchase, brings it back to his house.

[1221] He puts the box in the closet.

[1222] It's unclear if he actually ever touched the gun.

[1223] He never takes it out again.

[1224] But then, about six or seven months later, he's down by the courthouse, and he's hoping that someone's just going to hire him to solve a crime.

[1225] Oh, no, my God.

[1226] This is so sweet.

[1227] And a cop asks him for some ID, and the only ID that he has is the bill of sale in his pocket.

[1228] Okay.

[1229] So he hands it over to the cop and the cop says, have you ever gone to jail?

[1230] And Lee Roy Reid says, yeah.

[1231] He says, go bring the gun into the headquarters.

[1232] I want to see it.

[1233] Because there's a law that it's a felony to be an ex -con owning a gun in Milwaukee.

[1234] So he's put on trial.

[1235] Oh, no. This is upsetting.

[1236] He's going to get sent back to jail.

[1237] So they have the whole trial and then the jury goes into the deliberation room and there's only five or six jury deliberations in the history of America that have been taped.

[1238] So this is one of them.

[1239] And I got the tapes, I got the transcripts.

[1240] The crowd is basically divided.

[1241] Half the people want to send him to jail.

[1242] Half the people are like, this is ridiculous.

[1243] He shouldn't be punished for this.

[1244] And they're just fighting with each other, and you have to come to a unanimous verdict.

[1245] And there's this one guy who is a super communicator.

[1246] Now, what's funny about him is that most of the people in the room are like, stay -at -home moms.

[1247] They work in factories.

[1248] This dude, nobody liked him.

[1249] He was a professor of literature at Marquette.

[1250] His specialty was Derrida.

[1251] And you talk about Kafka all the time at the trial.

[1252] Like, everyone was like, I didn't understand him at all.

[1253] But what he knew is he knew how to listen to people.

[1254] And more importantly, he knew that this negotiation had to take place.

[1255] So what he does is he starts asking all these questions.

[1256] Have you read metamorphosis?

[1257] Tell me on French postmodernism, what do you think?

[1258] One of the things we know about super communicators is they ask about 10 to 20 times more questions than everyone else.

[1259] But what's interesting is we don't even register it because they're questions like, hey, what did you think of that?

[1260] Oh, that's interesting.

[1261] Why did you say that?

[1262] What's going on there?

[1263] There are questions that we hardly registered that invite us in.

[1264] So he's asking these questions and he's keeping track of some people are here to talk about justice and some people are here to talk about safety.

[1265] And justice is an emotional conversation.

[1266] Safety is a practical conversation.

[1267] Oh, interesting.

[1268] So when I'm talking to this half the room, we need to talk to each other on an emotional level.

[1269] When I'm talking to this half the room and that's how he brings the two sides together, Leroy Reid absolutely would have gone to jail if this guy had not been in the room.

[1270] room.

[1271] And he goes free.

[1272] And not because this guy thought he should go free, but because he figured out how to get everyone to hear each other.

[1273] He probably thought he should go free.

[1274] So it's interesting.

[1275] I reached out to him and he's an elderly now.

[1276] And his wife said, I don't think he's in a place to talk to you.

[1277] Right.

[1278] So I asked her, I think that at the end of the day, he thought that Leroy should go free.

[1279] But if he had tried to use this technique to manipulate everyone else, they would have sniffed it out.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] They would have been like, this guy is just playing games with us.

[1282] When you look at what he said when you listen to what he said, it's really even handy.

[1283] It's very neutral.

[1284] I actually don't know what he thought because I couldn't tell until he cast his vote.

[1285] That's cool.

[1286] So when you get arrested, pray that you have a super communicator on the jury.

[1287] Yes.

[1288] But more importantly, recognize that actually all of us can do this.

[1289] He didn't have some superpower.

[1290] He just thought a little bit more about communication.

[1291] And what two conversations were actually being had.

[1292] Exactly.

[1293] Exactly how conversations work.

[1294] And the fact that he was so awkward and kind of put on airs, and everyone else didn't like him, it's probably why he was a super communicator.

[1295] Right, because he was in neither camp.

[1296] He wasn't in an in -group to not be trusted.

[1297] And my guess is that when he was younger, he had trouble communicating.

[1298] He had to study how people talk to each other.

[1299] Right, he didn't have that natural charisma that attracts people to you.

[1300] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1301] And so here's my question for you guys is...

[1302] Friam.

[1303] Oh, is that not that?

[1304] Ah!

[1305] Oh, my God.

[1306] That's so dark.

[1307] Straight, straight to that.

[1308] When you guys were young, if I met you when you were 12 or 13, whatever your most awkward year is, would you be the communicator you are today?

[1309] Were you popular?

[1310] I was a good communicator.

[1311] That's why girls like me. I could talk on the phone with gals for four or five hours.

[1312] How did you learn to do that, though?

[1313] Middle child, I'm solving debates and letting the tension out of situations and being able to recognize, well, these two people are fighting.

[1314] Someone's got to step in and resolve this or lower the fucking.

[1315] temperature in here.

[1316] That's my explanation.

[1317] So you had to learn it.

[1318] You were in a situation where learning that skill was important, and that's why you became so good at it.

[1319] It very much felt like for survival, it is required.

[1320] And it's interesting to use the word survival, right?

[1321] Because that's amygdala.

[1322] What about you, Monica?

[1323] Yeah, same.

[1324] I could connect with anyone I had to because there was a big obstacle that I couldn't control.

[1325] And so I had to control all the other parts, which was connecting and making myself invaluable to people.

[1326] So yes, I do think, So what's interesting about this, and this is true of most super communicators, is there are people who had to learn, who had to just pay attention to communication.

[1327] Nobody's born a super communicator.

[1328] The people who become super communicators are actually the ones who were bad at it initially, right?

[1329] Who needed it.

[1330] Who needed it, who had to study it.

[1331] And that means any of us can study it.

[1332] And it becomes an instinct.

[1333] Like the point of the book is to let these instincts out.

[1334] Well, that's the last story I'm going to make you tell because it's exactly that point.

[1335] Tell me about Agent Lawler, recruiting sports.

[1336] buys when a terrible job he was doing.

[1337] Yeah, so I love this guy.

[1338] His name is Jim Lawler.

[1339] That's his actual name.

[1340] Kind of convenient for a CIA agent, Waller.

[1341] It's like chicken or the egg.

[1342] Yeah, I'd say egg.

[1343] Fry him.

[1344] Who, stop saying that.

[1345] He writes spy novels now.

[1346] Oh, perfect.

[1347] Yeah, so you can find him on Amazon.

[1348] So he gets hired.

[1349] He's like in his early 30s.

[1350] He wanted to be a CIA agent so bad.

[1351] He had failed at everything else.

[1352] He got in the law school.

[1353] He had totally mediocre grades.

[1354] He goes to for the interviews.

[1355] And basically everyone who interviews him is like, I don't understand why the hell you're doing this.

[1356] You're not going to get selected.

[1357] You have no military background, no language ability, no special skills.

[1358] And yet, this one guy is like, there's something special about you.

[1359] I'm going to let you become a CIA.

[1360] Well, he had flown himself to D .C. on his own dime.

[1361] And he said, ultimately, in the interview, after a failed run at what he thought the guy would want to hear, he ultimately said, I really want meaning in my life.

[1362] And I think this would be it.

[1363] He said something authentic.

[1364] And he connected with this guy.

[1365] I don't have meaning in my life.

[1366] So they send him to Europe.

[1367] And Jim would never tell me where he was posted in Europe or any of the other countries, but you'll figure it out.

[1368] I did.

[1369] If you read his book, Holland's surprise, he'll get a censored.

[1370] As I walked past the canal.

[1371] So he goes to Europe and he spends an entire year trying to recruit people and he is terrible at it.

[1372] People threaten to report him.

[1373] He's going to get deported.

[1374] Seen as a pervert probably.

[1375] Yeah, he's so bad at it.

[1376] Everyone else in his class.

[1377] who's over with him are, like, so good, they're so suave.

[1378] One of his colleagues is like, look, this woman's coming into town.

[1379] She works for the foreign ministry of her Middle Eastern country, get to know her.

[1380] So he manages to bump into her at a restaurant, bump with quotes, right?

[1381] Really quick.

[1382] As I was reading it, I was like, the first rule they should tell all these people is anyone who you accidentally meet, get them out of your life.

[1383] I know.

[1384] Anyway, sorry, but I was thinking that when I read that, like, bumping in as a strategy.

[1385] That's kind of how I feel, I so I don't like strangers.

[1386] That's exactly why.

[1387] Maybe they're all CIA's.

[1388] You don't want to be an operative.

[1389] You'd make a pretty good operative.

[1390] She is an operative.

[1391] Shut up.

[1392] He tells her he's an oil speculator.

[1393] He gets to know where they go to lunch together a bunch of times.

[1394] They go sightseeing together.

[1395] And eventually he's like, he tells his bosses, I think I'm recruiting the spy.

[1396] She comes from a country that had recently had a revolution involving religious radicals.

[1397] You probably can guess which one it was.

[1398] It was late 1970s, early 80s.

[1399] And so he has dinner with her privately and he says, look, I'm not an oil speculator.

[1400] I work for the CIA.

[1401] but you've told me a bunch of times how depressed you are because your government is now being run by these chauvinists.

[1402] And by the way, the U .S. wants the same thing.

[1403] We want to empower people.

[1404] We want women to be empowered in your country.

[1405] Work for me for the CIA.

[1406] And she listens to him and she starts crying and gripping the table and just shaking her head, no, no, no, and just freaks out.

[1407] And is like, no, I cannot do this.

[1408] They are going to kill me. You have put me at such danger just by befriending me. Yeah.

[1409] She leaves.

[1410] So he goes to his bosses.

[1411] He's like, by the way, this has been a total miserable failure.

[1412] And his boss is like, no, I already told Washington, D .C., you recruited her.

[1413] If you do not bring her in, you're going to get fired.

[1414] Or killed.

[1415] Yeah, who knows?

[1416] So Lawler's like, I don't know what the hell to do.

[1417] And he calls her a couple times and she won't even pick up.

[1418] And eventually she picks up.

[1419] And he's like, look, just have dinner with me one more time.

[1420] You're about to leave to go home.

[1421] Can we just have dinner?

[1422] And he actually tells her, I'm going to take you to this really fancy restaurant.

[1423] to kind of like bribe her to come.

[1424] And he's like writing down all these ideas of ways to recruit her.

[1425] And every single one, he's like, there's no way you can convince someone to take a suicidal risk.

[1426] Right.

[1427] He's like, I'm terrible at this.

[1428] I wanted this career.

[1429] And it turns out I am not cut out for this career.

[1430] They go to dinner.

[1431] She's really down because she's like, I came to Europe to try and figure out what to do the rest of my life, to be a force for good.

[1432] And everything's the same.

[1433] I'm about to go home.

[1434] I hate being home.

[1435] And Loller decides to try and make.

[1436] her feel better.

[1437] Start telling her stories and remember that time we went sightseeing and little jokes.

[1438] And she's like kind of laughs, but she's not into it.

[1439] And then they get to dessert.

[1440] And Lawler's like, should I try one more time?

[1441] And he's like, if I do, she's going to walk away.

[1442] This isn't going to work.

[1443] I'm going to get fired.

[1444] I guess I'll just have an honest conversation with this person.

[1445] And he starts telling her all about how disappointed he is in himself.

[1446] He's like, I thought I was going to be a great CIA officer.

[1447] There is something missing in me. I see it in other people.

[1448] I am bad at this.

[1449] I tried to recruit this one person from the Chinese embassy.

[1450] And basically they were like, I'm going to report you immediately if you talk to me again.

[1451] I am terrible at this job.

[1452] I know the disappointment you are feeling because I feel it in myself and I felt it my whole life.

[1453] And this was the thing that I thought was going to change it.

[1454] And it turns out I'm just disappointing myself again.

[1455] And he's not trying to recruit her.

[1456] Yes, not manipulative.

[1457] He's just being honest with her.

[1458] This feels like a love story.

[1459] Me cute?

[1460] Yes, it does.

[1461] She starts crying and he's like, oh, I'm such a jerk.

[1462] And by the way, he has to describe everything that happens in the conversation back to his bosses.

[1463] And he's like, I'm going to turn in this report.

[1464] And they're going to massacre me. We're going to grab into a room and laugh as they read it.

[1465] So he, like, reaches over and he's like, I'm so sorry.

[1466] Don't cry.

[1467] Please don't cry.

[1468] And she says, I can do this.

[1469] This is important.

[1470] And he's like, what?

[1471] And she's like, I think I can help you.

[1472] And he is so inexperienced that what he says next is, no, no, you don't have to do that.

[1473] Like, I don't have to like, I don't want you to help me. She's like, no. For the first time she heard what he was saying, which is you can help your country.

[1474] Like, we want to help your country.

[1475] and she hears that, she goes into a safe house two days later to get training in covert communications.

[1476] Oh my God.

[1477] For the next 20 years, she's one of the best sources in the Middle East.

[1478] Wow.

[1479] And Jim Waller ends up being one of the best recruiters that the CIA has ever had.

[1480] He actually trains other people how to recruit now.

[1481] Wow.

[1482] When I asked him why this happened, he's like, I don't know.

[1483] I've asked Fasana, what changed your mind.

[1484] Well, what's funny is he had already learned the lesson.

[1485] He had learned the lesson in the interview.

[1486] But he didn't see it as lesson.

[1487] Yeah, which is what was.

[1488] We all do.

[1489] She was having an emotional conversation.

[1490] He wasn't matching her.

[1491] He was trying to match her.

[1492] He was trying to explain to her the reasons she wouldn't be in risk.

[1493] I'm going to solve your problem.

[1494] Yeah, exactly.

[1495] And so finally, when he, like, matched her.

[1496] I'm scared, too.

[1497] He's like, yeah, this life is a beat down.

[1498] It is.

[1499] It's a tricky job because you really are asking people to risk their life.

[1500] Absolutely.

[1501] That's what's crazy.

[1502] And also, I would have fallen in love with all of them.

[1503] Oh, my God.

[1504] Are you feeling that, too, Monica?

[1505] No. A restaurant in Paris where you guys are talking.

[1506] Everyone's emotional because they're failing their country.

[1507] You need to comfort each other and hold each other.

[1508] And then you get tinglies.

[1509] You could have been so many things, but your sexual appetite is your krypton.

[1510] I would like to see Dak Shepard as a CIA officer.

[1511] Who just can never get beyond the romantic appeal of the job.

[1512] I've never recruited one guy.

[1513] I'm like, what are you going to?

[1514] I don't know.

[1515] I don't know.

[1516] You're like, no, we need more women.

[1517] Oh, wow.

[1518] Well, Charles, this was a blast.

[1519] Thank you guys for having me on.

[1520] Yes, I hope everyone reads Super Communicators, How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection.

[1521] I will say, too, there's all sorts of fun.

[1522] I love when a book breaks up this stuff.

[1523] There's, like, cute icons and different flow charts, and there's, like, a lot going on that keeps it very readable.

[1524] It's a really fun read.

[1525] Oh, thank you.

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] I really appreciate that.

[1528] Okay, before we finish up, can I ask you a more question, please.

[1529] So, having done this now for.

[1530] long as you've done it, having had real success with it, like the world is telling you you do this well.

[1531] If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself?

[1532] Either before you started doing the podcast or even when you were younger, you guys are communicating all the time, and you're thinking about it so deeply in a different way.

[1533] What's the big lesson that you wish you knew earlier?

[1534] This is such an Adam Grant question.

[1535] Yeah, which we normally say, we'll get back to you.

[1536] And I want to, because I like you so much, I want to give you an answer that falls into something that would be pleasing to you.

[1537] But my true answer, my true answer is nothing.

[1538] You learn this by doing it a bunch.

[1539] Like I would go back six years ago and say talk less, but I wouldn't have talked less.

[1540] I'm not a huge believer in that some tip would have altered my behavior.

[1541] It's just like I needed time on the job.

[1542] I needed the 10 ,000 hours.

[1543] I needed to do it over and over again.

[1544] And I think that's why we're getting better at it is just doing it.

[1545] And maybe the confidence that comes with that.

[1546] And then you calm down a bit and you can listen better.

[1547] and talk less.

[1548] But I don't think you can shortcut that.

[1549] I think you just got to fucking do it.

[1550] And then really get the confidence that allows you to calm down.

[1551] And what do you think?

[1552] It's hard.

[1553] You'd say like get a tea kettle right out of the gates because that's been last years.

[1554] Get a microwave, which we still haven't done.

[1555] Probably I would say don't get attached to like it being one thing every time or lower your expectations a little bit because this thing is going to be a ride.

[1556] It's not just going to be at 100 at all.

[1557] Like, we did come out hot.

[1558] Like, we did.

[1559] That's the truth.

[1560] Lightning struck us.

[1561] It did.

[1562] And we got really lucky in that way.

[1563] It wasn't like it took us two years before people started listening.

[1564] It was fast.

[1565] But that's its own challenge.

[1566] Interesting.

[1567] That's what I'm saying.

[1568] We weren't practicing without anyone watching.

[1569] We came out with four episodes in the first week.

[1570] Yeah.

[1571] And it was humongous.

[1572] And we didn't know what we were doing.

[1573] And, you know.

[1574] But also even now when there's dips, it hasn't been so.

[1575] this whole time.

[1576] There were moments that were so stressful, but they were only so stressful because of these expectations.

[1577] If we didn't have any, it would have been totally normal.

[1578] So, okay, I'm going to tell you guys what I hear you saying and tell me if I'm getting this right.

[1579] Dexter you were saying basically learn to give in to what feels right.

[1580] Learn to fall back on your instincts.

[1581] And what you're saying is when we create false instincts, when we start saying it has to be like this, it has to be perfect this way.

[1582] We have to satisfy the audience because it's so terrifying that we might lose some of them.

[1583] Yes.

[1584] That in some ways what I'm hearing is that by doing it, you have learned to trust your ability to be super communicators.

[1585] It's not the lessons.

[1586] It's learning to just trust what you can do.

[1587] Is that fair?

[1588] It is, but I do want to put a fine point on the fact that I think it's the difference between like telling your kids you can be anything is not effective.

[1589] creating situations where they can find out that they're capable of things does result in something.

[1590] So it's like even the notion of going back in time and telling yourself something, I guess that's the premise I reject a little bit.

[1591] I don't think you can tell yourselves.

[1592] I think you have to prove to yourself and do it.

[1593] But for me, what have we learned?

[1594] It's a wonderful question.

[1595] I should be more compliant.

[1596] As I said, Charles, I'm inclined to just go along with it, but I want to be dead honest in that I don't think there's shortcuts.

[1597] I don't think you can go back in time and tell yourself stuff.

[1598] I mean, it's super interesting because, of course, we can't actually do this.

[1599] The mistakes I made when I was younger, if I went back and I told myself, you're about to make this mistake, I wonder if I would have listened to myself, to your point.

[1600] No. Because other people told me I was making a mistake, and I basically didn't even hear them.

[1601] Exactly.

[1602] Because you were certain of how you were doing it.

[1603] That's why you were doing it that way.

[1604] Yeah.

[1605] Okay.

[1606] So here's my takeaway from this for listeners is go out, try and have a conversation, try and break through to someone, try and do something that feels a little risky, let yourself be vulnerable, recognize their vulnerability, and then don't go to dinner with Dax and try and recruit him because you will definitely.

[1607] No, I think just asking yourself the most basic question, which of these three conversations is happening is like 85 % of it.

[1608] I totally agree.

[1609] Oh, wait, we are not having the same conversation at all.

[1610] I think that's so powerful and helpful.

[1611] I agree.

[1612] Charles, it's hard for me to believe you weren't a super communicator prior to writing this book because you are such a beautifully connected individual.

[1613] That is very nice to you to say.

[1614] I was terrible.

[1615] I was the most awkward pudgy kid.

[1616] I was bad of making friends.

[1617] And so I figured it out.

[1618] Yeah.

[1619] I had to for survival.

[1620] Oh, well, this has been a blast.

[1621] Everyone buy and read super communicators.

[1622] And I can't wait to bump into you on the street and then have the most effortless and connected conversation because we both have the tools.

[1623] Be well.

[1624] Good luck with everything.

[1625] I tend to hear Miss Monica correct all the facts that were wrong.

[1626] That's okay, though.

[1627] We all make mistakes.

[1628] These are the facts brought to you by Whispers.

[1629] The most refreshing breathment in the business.

[1630] Oh.

[1631] That'd be a good name for a breathman.

[1632] You know, Whispers?

[1633] This is sexy.

[1634] Ask me if I have a whispers.

[1635] Do you have whispers?

[1636] Well, you don't need one, but I'll give you one anyways.

[1637] That would be the tagline.

[1638] Oh, just became Old Spice.

[1639] Well, no, because you'd want to.

[1640] alleviate the person's fear is that their breasts smell.

[1641] Oh, I see.

[1642] I think it's hard to say, do you have a whispers?

[1643] There's something about the plural?

[1644] Ted Seegers.

[1645] I like a plural because I'm from Michigan.

[1646] Kmart's, Ford's, Walmart's.

[1647] You love that.

[1648] I'd be like, do you have a mince?

[1649] No. But certs.

[1650] I loved certs.

[1651] There you go.

[1652] Tell me about your slacks.

[1653] Tell me about your slacks.

[1654] Okay.

[1655] You want to hear about them?

[1656] I do.

[1657] They're so fun looking.

[1658] They're so soft.

[1659] Are they whispers?

[1660] Oh, I already resent this product.

[1661] Why?

[1662] Guess what they are.

[1663] The row.

[1664] No. Prada.

[1665] No. K marks.

[1666] It's not a brand I'm looking for.

[1667] The answer I'm looking for is...

[1668] Casimir pants?

[1669] Well, they are cashmere.

[1670] Oh, they are?

[1671] Oh, they are.

[1672] Oh, my God.

[1673] They're like a dress sweat pant, cashmere sweater pant.

[1674] They're men's.

[1675] They're men.

[1676] what size.

[1677] Extra, extra small.

[1678] Extra large.

[1679] What are you talking about?

[1680] Those are men's extra large?

[1681] Yes.

[1682] Can I ask you to stand up?

[1683] Is that inappropriate?

[1684] Nope.

[1685] And what have you folded the underleg in?

[1686] No, no. They're very, should I take my shoe off?

[1687] For a small extra large man?

[1688] No. Because they would not fit me. Yes, they would.

[1689] Look.

[1690] Yes, they do.

[1691] Look.

[1692] Okay.

[1693] Pull, okay.

[1694] Okay.

[1695] Now I'm seeing.

[1696] Wow.

[1697] So to the listener, she's pulled them out and they extend about seven inches past the tips of her toes.

[1698] And they have a drawstring.

[1699] So that's why I can wear them.

[1700] Okay.

[1701] You just pull them really tight.

[1702] How did you find yourself buying a set of extra large men's sweater slacks?

[1703] Well, as you said, they're very attractive.

[1704] Yeah.

[1705] Did you see them on someone specifically?

[1706] I could see Pitt in those or Lewis Hamilton.

[1707] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1708] I saw them at Fred Siegel.

[1709] They were on sale.

[1710] I just saw them from afar.

[1711] Yeah, I was going to say, were you perusing the men section?

[1712] I was in the female section, and then I just, there's like a rack, and I just saw these pants, and immediately I wanted them.

[1713] I'm drawn to soft clothes.

[1714] And draw strings.

[1715] And draw strings.

[1716] And I didn't give a fuck what size they were.

[1717] And I saw they were extra large.

[1718] And I got a little.

[1719] nervous when I saw extra large.

[1720] Well, I will add that's of Fred Siegel's extra large.

[1721] Do you know what I'm saying?

[1722] I mean, if you go in, you know what I'm saying?

[1723] Exactly.

[1724] Like at Kmart, they would be considerably bigger if they were extra large.

[1725] Okay.

[1726] Yeah.

[1727] I don't know why I had to say that.

[1728] Because if the viewer, or the listener rather, the arm cherry, is picturing the extra large sweats they just saw at Kmart, I want them to know that's actually not the size you're wearing.

[1729] It's for their benefit.

[1730] You'll see these pants in an upcoming picture.

[1731] Yes, with an A -LIS actor.

[1732] But I just also loved the color.

[1733] It's a bluish gray.

[1734] Like there's a very nice bluish.

[1735] Just slight.

[1736] Yeah.

[1737] And so I tried them on, and I was like, I'm going to make this work.

[1738] When were you shopping at Frontenigold?

[1739] Yesterday, yeah.

[1740] At Sportsman's Watch.

[1741] Oh, there's one there?

[1742] Yeah.

[1743] Oh.

[1744] Did you go before or after the Super Bowl?

[1745] Before.

[1746] Okay.

[1747] Did you have a little lunch before?

[1748] I had brunch with Liz.

[1749] Okay.

[1750] At the Sportsman's Lodge?

[1751] No. We went to Beachwood Canyon.

[1752] Oh, did the little weird intersection at the top there?

[1753] Yeah.

[1754] Is that place fun?

[1755] I love it there.

[1756] Oh, I want to try it.

[1757] It's so cute.

[1758] I was there Saturday.

[1759] At Beachwood Canyon?

[1760] Yes, because Kristen's Cleaners is there.

[1761] Oh, yeah, there's a good cleaners right there.

[1762] So we left Barton Street Bakery or whatever.

[1763] Clark Street.

[1764] 1 -1, Clark Street.

[1765] It's called Clark Street.

[1766] There was a young red -headed gentleman reading a book in front of Clark Street.

[1767] Uh -huh.

[1768] And then when I dropped Kristen off to run into the cleaners, that red -headed boy was reading a book in front of the cleaners.

[1769] Oh, my God.

[1770] So I pulled up to him, and I rolled down the window, and I said, sir, where are we going next?

[1771] Oh, that's funny.

[1772] And he liked it because he also saw us there.

[1773] He goes, you're following me. And I go, oh, for sure.

[1774] Yeah, you were at both places before us.

[1775] That's why I'm asking you where we're going next.

[1776] He's a glitch in the sim.

[1777] That's so glitchy.

[1778] Because he was also probably still back at Clark Street reading his book.

[1779] He's a duplicate.

[1780] That's a duplicated.

[1781] Did you punch him and see if he cried?

[1782] No, but I gave him an aesthetic really quick.

[1783] Oh, wow.

[1784] And he did respond differently.

[1785] Oh, my gosh.

[1786] Dad.

[1787] Big mistake.

[1788] Big mistake.

[1789] Daddy.

[1790] Did you have to wait a while to get into Beachwood?

[1791] There's always a huge line.

[1792] It was a huge line.

[1793] I put my name and I thought it was.

[1794] She said 20 minutes, which I already thought was not going to be accurate.

[1795] I thought it was going to be like an hour based on how many people.

[1796] But there's a cool vintage store next door.

[1797] Uh -huh.

[1798] So I put my name in, went to the vintage store, and then I got called in within five minutes.

[1799] They have your phone number?

[1800] You scan and you put your name in.

[1801] And they text you.

[1802] Oh, that's great.

[1803] It's really great.

[1804] There was a long line at Barker Street.

[1805] It's weird because you love it so much.

[1806] But it feels like disrespectful that you won't call it by its name.

[1807] I think it's a weird rebrand.

[1808] Why don't you just keep a Cafe 101?

[1809] Because it was bought.

[1810] Okay.

[1811] So it's not fair to the people who spent their money.

[1812] They should have bought the rights to the name as well.

[1813] No, Clark Street Bakery.

[1814] I talked to Max about this.

[1815] I found some stuff out.

[1816] Clark's bakery, the bakery itself is I forget all the details.

[1817] Okay.

[1818] I did forget.

[1819] Sure.

[1820] But it was an existing bakery, big institution.

[1821] In L .A.?

[1822] Yeah.

[1823] Okay.

[1824] Ding, ding, ding, langers, earmark.

[1825] Go ahead.

[1826] Oh, okay.

[1827] I went to Langer's last week.

[1828] Oh.

[1829] I told you that, right?

[1830] No. Oh, yeah, it was like rainy, middle of a rainy day.

[1831] Have you ever been?

[1832] I've never been, and that is a, that's a L .A. institution.

[1833] 76 years old.

[1834] Wow.

[1835] Yes.

[1836] Best corned beef and pastrami in Los Angeles.

[1837] Where is, is it downtown, sorry you said?

[1838] It's right across from MacArthur Park.

[1839] Okay.

[1840] It's in the, which is where exactly?

[1841] It's like, yeah, almost downtown.

[1842] Okay.

[1843] But it's 76 years old, they have not updated the aesthetic.

[1844] So a couple things were happening.

[1845] It was raining, which is not L .A. Right?

[1846] Like where I was walking in, there was a river running down those streets.

[1847] It was more than raining.

[1848] It was like monsooning here.

[1849] Monica monsoon.

[1850] Ding, ding, ding.

[1851] We already know it.

[1852] There's already been shirts.

[1853] We've been talking about it a lot.

[1854] So it already is like, I feel like I'm in New York City because why is it raining so much?

[1855] And I'm kind of downtownish, so the architecture is different.

[1856] And then I walk in and it is a time traveling experience.

[1857] I sit down at the booth by myself.

[1858] I brought my Buddhist book to read.

[1859] Oh.

[1860] And I'm planning on reading, but I can't because the service is too good.

[1861] So the woman says, can I get, we'll start you with something to drink?

[1862] And I say, yeah, she literally turns her back and then she turns right back around.

[1863] She's holding a huge Diet Coke.

[1864] It's like the fucking machine was behind my head of the booth in her little stand.

[1865] And then I hit her with my order, which was the combo platter of pastrami and corn beef.

[1866] And I wanted a side of potato salad and coleslaw.

[1867] and I wanted two eggs over easy.

[1868] Pick up my book to read.

[1869] That meal is on my table within three minutes, and everything's perfect.

[1870] Do you think that was a glitch too?

[1871] Could have been.

[1872] Oh, my God.

[1873] But I sat there and I felt like I was in a Bukowski short story.

[1874] Like I was eating a big platter of Prostromian corn beef in a 76 -year -old L .A. restaurant with rain outside.

[1875] Oh, I like that.

[1876] I was in heaven.

[1877] And then I saw a cute younger couple taking a picture of their meal.

[1878] So I was like, oh, they know Langer's institution.

[1879] This is their first time.

[1880] And then I saw them at the register.

[1881] And I said, first time to Langers.

[1882] And they said, yeah.

[1883] Oh, my gosh.

[1884] And they were really excited.

[1885] But everyone else in there, it looked cast out of a Bukowski short story.

[1886] Okay.

[1887] I don't know where these people live in L .A. They were older.

[1888] They were dressed like my grandparents.

[1889] It's real human beings, not Hollywood people.

[1890] Uh -huh.

[1891] Eating in this.

[1892] I mean, really, it was a time trip.

[1893] That's great.

[1894] I recommend going to Langers.

[1895] It's so fun.

[1896] What do we think are the top five L .A. institutional restaurants?

[1897] But before we do that, while you're thinking, yeah, look at my, look at Liberty right now.

[1898] Shit bear?

[1899] Don't call him, don't move him, don't move him.

[1900] Just look at his positioning.

[1901] Oh, he's on the toilet.

[1902] Well, shit bear is shitting.

[1903] Yes.

[1904] He's hanging his buns over the side of a lusite box and letting it plop.

[1905] He's just like in a visit.

[1906] And he wanted to be close to the, um, the tissue paper.

[1907] Because he wanted to learn, he's learned his lesson.

[1908] He doesn't think he should wipe with his body.

[1909] That's right.

[1910] Well, or, and or he's run out of space to wipe with because he's completely covered in shit now.

[1911] Now he's holding some tissue getting ready.

[1912] We should put a little chocolate right here.

[1913] No, don't.

[1914] He's perfect as he is.

[1915] He's perfect as he is.

[1916] Oh, man. All right.

[1917] Anyway, so.

[1918] Oh.

[1919] Top restaurants.

[1920] Institutions.

[1921] Institutions.

[1922] Two right off the bat.

[1923] Langers already spoke of.

[1924] Filippes.

[1925] That's the, they might even be older.

[1926] See how old Filippes is, Rob?

[1927] That's famous French dip.

[1928] Also downtown.

[1929] Closer to Chinatown.

[1930] Were you?

[1931] You didn't work that day on chips.

[1932] We shot down there.

[1933] It was really fun.

[1934] How old's Filippes?

[1935] 1951.

[1936] Okay, so 73 years old.

[1937] Okay.

[1938] So just three years after Langers.

[1939] Wow.

[1940] Which ones are you going to add?

[1941] I'm going to add Muso and Franks.

[1942] Of course, great call.

[1943] Muso and Franks, old steakhouse in Hollywood.

[1944] And probably Dantanas?

[1945] Yeah, I wonder what, I feel like they probably opened in the 60s, my guess.

[1946] 1927, actually, for Filippes.

[1947] For Filippes, 27.

[1948] I thought they had, they were nearing a 100 -year anniversary.

[1949] Okay.

[1950] A hundred -year.

[1951] Wow.

[1952] I know they were doing something maybe for, like, their 90th anniversary, and they were selling the French dips at the price they were.

[1953] were 90 years before for like a really limited time.

[1954] Wow.

[1955] What a cool thing.

[1956] That is cool.

[1957] You're 20 cent French dip or something.

[1958] Dantanas is 1964.

[1959] Okay.

[1960] More recent, but I think still it counts.

[1961] At this point, yeah.

[1962] Well, it's over 50 years old.

[1963] Yeah.

[1964] Okay, so.

[1965] Mousseau and Franks is a really good one.

[1966] That's a good one.

[1967] That's in Bukowski stories a lot.

[1968] 1990.

[1969] Wow.

[1970] Wow.

[1971] Whoa.

[1972] 120th anniversary this year.

[1973] As bad.

[1974] Unreal.

[1975] So we have one slot left.

[1976] I should go eat at Muso and Franks.

[1977] It's been, I think I've only eaten our once or twice, and I don't think I liked steak at the time.

[1978] And so I think I should go there.

[1979] Okay.

[1980] Have you been there recently?

[1981] Musu and Franks, I went last year once for a martini, and that's the time that this old man, he probably worked there from the beginning.

[1982] Uh -huh.

[1983] I paid.

[1984] It was Jess and I. I paid.

[1985] And he kept giving the bill to Jess and returning the credit card.

[1986] Thank you, sir.

[1987] And then after the tip, oh, my gosh, thank you so much to Jess.

[1988] And he was, after the first time, he looked at me and I said, don't do it.

[1989] Okay.

[1990] Don't do it.

[1991] It's fine.

[1992] You can handle it.

[1993] It's fine.

[1994] And then the second time, you know, the blood is like starting to burble.

[1995] Yeah, hair trigger.

[1996] Yep.

[1997] And by at the third time, he couldn't.

[1998] He said, it's her, bro.

[1999] Ah, and what that guy said?

[2000] He didn't know what bro, man. Yeah, he was like, that's a woman that can't be.

[2001] Right.

[2002] And the tiny one at that, wearing extra large pants.

[2003] His head exploded.

[2004] Yeah.

[2005] I think he just said.

[2006] It would be collapsed from a heart attack in that moment.

[2007] Well, that's why I was trying to.

[2008] I was like, it's okay.

[2009] He's old.

[2010] But also, this is the messiness of being human.

[2011] Yeah.

[2012] I told him not to and I didn't want him to.

[2013] Right.

[2014] But then when he did that, he was standing up for what was right.

[2015] Jess was.

[2016] I liked it.

[2017] Sure.

[2018] You know, even though.

[2019] Yeah, it's the contradictory nature of us humans.

[2020] Speaking of heart attacks and being spooked, were you watching the game closely enough to see Travis Kelsey attack his coach?

[2021] He, like, yelled at him.

[2022] He, like, grabbed him.

[2023] Okay.

[2024] He bumped into him and grabbed his arm.

[2025] And I felt, hey, I don't really care at sports, whatever.

[2026] But that man's older.

[2027] And the look on it, he looks so confused.

[2028] like what just hit them.

[2029] I was like, that could have caused a heart attack.

[2030] Oh, okay, two things I'll say.

[2031] One, I wasn't watching that closely.

[2032] I think that's now like a meme.

[2033] Oh, it is.

[2034] Yeah, are people upset about it?

[2035] No, it's just like everyone puts their own words on it and whatever.

[2036] Oh, okay.

[2037] That's a meme work.

[2038] Yeah.

[2039] And that guy, I don't like the way it looks, right?

[2040] I don't like when people are yelling at other people.

[2041] But also, I don't think you should probably have a heart attack in the middle of a football game.

[2042] Like, you should be ready for intensity.

[2043] Yeah, I just think he was very much concentrating on what was happening on field.

[2044] I think this had a humongous fumble, which was going to fuck them up.

[2045] And he's like looking out there.

[2046] And all of a sudden, you know, Trave.

[2047] Again, no, look, I'll defend them as well.

[2048] Let's acknowledge the world we're in.

[2049] Exactly.

[2050] This is sports.

[2051] You know, you can't want it to be a, a Unix Boys choir, whatever, and also the Super Bowl.

[2052] So I have great tolerance for all of it.

[2053] I just, got sincerely scared for the man that he might have a heart attack.

[2054] Yeah.

[2055] So tell me about the Super Bowl.

[2056] Oh, I mainly sat outside by the fire.

[2057] Oh, you did?

[2058] A nice cozy fire outside?

[2059] Yeah.

[2060] Yeah.

[2061] I went to the Hansons.

[2062] They do a big Super Bowl party every year, which is always very fun.

[2063] And normally I am at least sitting in front of the game.

[2064] To watch the commercials.

[2065] Yeah, but for some reason.

[2066] Was there betting on the commercials?

[2067] Yeah.

[2068] I just, all of a sudden, it was halftime.

[2069] And my plan was to leave after halftime.

[2070] And so I missed pretty much all of it.

[2071] I did hear and then rewatch that there was a Ben and Matt commercial.

[2072] Yeah.

[2073] There was a Dunkin commercial, Ben and Matt.

[2074] So, of course, people sent me that.

[2075] Of course.

[2076] And I watched it, which I enjoy seeing them.

[2077] It makes me happy.

[2078] They're your guys.

[2079] They're my guys.

[2080] And what she says at the end of the commercial, Ben says, whatever, they're naming a drink after us.

[2081] Yeah.

[2082] And they are.

[2083] So I'm going to have to get that.

[2084] What's it called?

[2085] Ben and Matt Moker or some?

[2086] I think it's like Dunkings or something, but it's, it's Ben's drink.

[2087] Okay.

[2088] So I got to get it.

[2089] Sure.

[2090] I understand.

[2091] You get it.

[2092] Where's the closest Dunkin' Donuts for us?

[2093] I mean.

[2094] They are in L .A. now, right?

[2095] Yeah.

[2096] Yeah, okay.

[2097] I love a Dunkin' Donuts.

[2098] So do I. I'm not here to cast shade on Dunkin' Donuts.

[2099] So do I?

[2100] I also, I love their donut.

[2101] No, exactly.

[2102] I don't care about it.

[2103] People love their coffee.

[2104] Right.

[2105] I'm addicted to another brand.

[2106] Starbys, shout out.

[2107] Sure, you love that.

[2108] Pre -comers.

[2109] Except Starbees is not as, we, we, we, we, we, tried to do a flightless bird on Starbucks, and they, they won't agree.

[2110] But we have done one on donuts, and Duncan did agree.

[2111] So I like that.

[2112] Sure, you got to like it more for that reason alone.

[2113] But when I ate gluten, I would occasionally stop and do a Dunkin' Donuts, and this is occasionally, they don't make a ton of them, and they're rarely in stock, but they do have a chocolate filled one that's like a chocolate, it's like an icing.

[2114] It's not a, it's not a custard.

[2115] Interesting.

[2116] And I like it a lot.

[2117] Okay.

[2118] Yeah, very good.

[2119] Is it glade?

[2120] Is it powdered, on the outside and then it's got like it literally looks like when you're putting it on a cake the icing and the little device leaves the weird marks the corrugatedness yes that's hanging out of its asshole it looks like it has a but hole well just where they filled it and they fill it good so it comes out so it looks like a little butthole with chocolate whispers in it is it is it a sir is it doesn't have an open no hole it's closed it's a close like like a jelly filled one would be, but in this case, it's icing.

[2121] Okay.

[2122] It's really good.

[2123] That sounds nice.

[2124] It doesn't really sound like it's going to be for me. Okay.

[2125] Which is probably good since it's too hard to have.

[2126] We wouldn't want to go in there and there'd be one left.

[2127] Actually, I would love that.

[2128] Well, I know, but then we would be in a fight over it, but I'd let you have it.

[2129] I would take one bite and give you the rest.

[2130] Okay.

[2131] You would take the bite out of the anus of it, probably?

[2132] Yeah, the part.

[2133] The poop part.

[2134] Do you want to hear something very perverse?

[2135] Yeah.

[2136] I have taken a bite out of it, and then I stick my tongue in there.

[2137] before I take a bite because that's where all the chocolate is seeping out.

[2138] Sure.

[2139] I'll cut that.

[2140] Okay.

[2141] My donut is a chocolate cake donut from Duncan.

[2142] That's a good donut.

[2143] I love it.

[2144] I love it.

[2145] My best friend Gina and I would go a lot before and after chilling practice.

[2146] Before and after.

[2147] Yeah.

[2148] We could eat anything then.

[2149] Yeah, because you were ripping through them calories.

[2150] Just bouncing and twisting.

[2151] Ripping in the tear.

[2152] And they're ripping and the turn.

[2153] Rick.

[2154] Let's hear from Rick.

[2155] Okay.

[2156] So what was I going to see?

[2157] Do we earmark something?

[2158] Last institution.

[2159] Oh, that and then Super Bowl.

[2160] Oh, yeah.

[2161] I watched it with my father -in -law.

[2162] Yes.

[2163] Which is a very sweet experience.

[2164] How was?

[2165] That's our first football game we've ever sat down and watched his father and son.

[2166] Seminal.

[2167] And it was just the two of us.

[2168] That's fun.

[2169] Like, that could be awkward for a father -in -law and son -in -law.

[2170] But it was really fun.

[2171] And Kristen and the girls drove home because it was 7 .30 by the time overtime started.

[2172] They had to get home and get to bed for school.

[2173] So they got in the car when overtime started.

[2174] And I don't know how this happened, who told Lincoln what.

[2175] But when they arrived at home, Lincoln was under the belief that the 49ers had won.

[2176] She had been crying in the car.

[2177] Oh.

[2178] And then she had been workshopping some responses to the boys that were going to make fun of her today for being so vocally supportive of the chiefs and that they lost so she's already they were all as a family prepping i see what the retorts to the ridicule would be okay so they walk into the and by the way i saw the car pull up knowing they must have missed it right and i rewounded to the last two plays which were insane fucking travis kelsey got that first down again you want them to be that guy he's going to rough you up on the sideline exactly yeah gets this incredible first down which pretty much they you go wow they're going to have four shots to get six yards and then this incredible pass blah blah had it queued up right to hit play when lincoln walked in knowing she'd want to know she comes in she's devastated i go what what's the matter and she goes they're going to make fun of me and i go watch this i got a feeling you know and then showed her and she was cheering she was it was so funny to see how excited she was about a football game yeah that's lovely it was because of taylor right yeah it's funny because mollie and i were talking about about how so many guys are really mad about all this.

[2179] I know.

[2180] It's crazy.

[2181] And I was like, let's do our most generous exploration of what's going on.

[2182] Like, of course, on the surface, why do you care that more people like football?

[2183] That's great.

[2184] Women.

[2185] And why do you care that women now like football?

[2186] And why are you mad at Taylor that they're cutting to her?

[2187] She's not running the fucking editing board on the telecast.

[2188] She does no control over that.

[2189] Why you mad at her?

[2190] And so we got over the like, they're just assholes, blah, blah, blah.

[2191] But I think this is the one I've concluded that I feel most, maybe his highest percentage of what's going on.

[2192] We can assume that a lot of these guys have wanted their girlfriends to like football for so long.

[2193] And they've tried to explain what a great game it is and why it's so fun to watch it.

[2194] And the girlfriends had zero interest in it.

[2195] And now Taylor starts dating a football player and all of a sudden their girls love football.

[2196] So it's like this other thing that like, oh, if she likes it, you'll like it.

[2197] But if I like it, you'll have no interest in it.

[2198] I don't have those feelings, but at least it attempts to explain why they're threatened by it.

[2199] Okay.

[2200] Didn't hold any water for you?

[2201] No. I mean, it does act.

[2202] It does as a theory.

[2203] I think it's a great theory.

[2204] Okay.

[2205] I think it's a very generous theory.

[2206] Yeah.

[2207] I don't think it's real.

[2208] You think they just hate women?

[2209] Did I say that?

[2210] Oh, no. I'm sorry.

[2211] I didn't say that at all.

[2212] That's like a strong thing to say.

[2213] I've been around so many football people, men.

[2214] No one there gives a fuck if the girls are into it or not.

[2215] Oh, okay.

[2216] There's a lot of men with their girlfriends.

[2217] And sometimes the girlfriends are into it, sometimes they're not.

[2218] But I've, I've never been in a scenario where the guy's like, wait, let me explain it to you.

[2219] Or I really, or like, can we watch this together?

[2220] or I've never seen that.

[2221] Okay.

[2222] So I don't think there's this like, fuck, I just really wish my girlfriend and I could commiserate over football.

[2223] Maybe they like that it's boys' time.

[2224] That's what I do think.

[2225] Okay.

[2226] And now the girls are on boys' time.

[2227] Yeah, and maybe the girls are like, what's happening now?

[2228] Uh -huh.

[2229] And then they're upset by that.

[2230] Why isn't Travis playing?

[2231] Yeah, why haven't they shown Taylor in 10 minutes?

[2232] And I think that's a big chunk of them too.

[2233] I could see that being annoying.

[2234] Like, I don't want to explain this now.

[2235] Right, right.

[2236] Well, that's a good theory, too.

[2237] I guess from me, like, I love Formula One.

[2238] Yeah.

[2239] I would love it if you love Formula.

[2240] I'd love to talk about it with you.

[2241] I want my daughters to watch it with me. That'd be so fun.

[2242] They will occasionally, so I'm not saying that I don't have this, but I'm just, I can imagine that I have been really wanting them to join me every Sunday to watch the races and talk about it.

[2243] Yeah.

[2244] And they have no interest in it.

[2245] And then Taylor Swift starts stating Charles Leclair and then they're watching every race with me. Now, an evolved person would be like, well, great, I got what I wanted.

[2246] We get to share this together.

[2247] That would be the adjusted thing to do.

[2248] But I can imagine going like, God, I was begging them to watch with me and they don't care at all.

[2249] But as soon as she is dating someone, now they want to do it.

[2250] So just they value her a lot more than they value me. Would you really feel that way, though?

[2251] No, I'm saying I would get to the point where I'm just delighted they're not with me. I think you're being very nice.

[2252] I don't think you would have that hurdle.

[2253] I think if all of a sudden, if someone was dating Charles or any of the players.

[2254] The players.

[2255] Oh, the drivers.

[2256] They're watching Formula One calling them players.

[2257] Right.

[2258] Yeah, that would be the first.

[2259] You might get annoyed at.

[2260] But I know that you would not care at all.

[2261] I know you're trying to.

[2262] No, I would.

[2263] But I'm also someone who has incredible amounts of love shown towards me. I have a lot of advantages.

[2264] Okay.

[2265] That your average alienated, unemployed, hopeless dude has, you know.

[2266] Oh, look, I guess I, okay, let's take it out of this.

[2267] Okay, so I, I really want you to watch Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

[2268] Yeah, yeah.

[2269] I watched the whole thing this weekend.

[2270] Oh, it's all out.

[2271] All out, eight episodes.

[2272] I watched every, I watched it.

[2273] Okay, great.

[2274] I loved it.

[2275] I told you to watch it.

[2276] And I'm going to.

[2277] Yeah, I know.

[2278] But let's say you weren't, right?

[2279] Like, let's say you just, like, weren't watching it and weren't watching it.

[2280] And then I heard that it was Zazzi Beetz's favorite show.

[2281] Well, no, no, no. You can't be that.

[2282] Okay.

[2283] Because that's the wrong analogy.

[2284] It would have to be.

[2285] Max Verstappen's favorite show.

[2286] And then you're like, oh, fuck, like, I really got to watch it.

[2287] You might be a little hurt.

[2288] Okay.

[2289] I would be hurt.

[2290] But now again, this is not a good analogy.

[2291] It's not a perfect comp.

[2292] No, because the reason the girls are watching is they want to see her.

[2293] Well, I think they want to see her.

[2294] her, but additionally, they want her boyfriend to win.

[2295] They do.

[2296] Yeah, because that's good for the whole team.

[2297] So it's not the same as an endorsement or like, now I'm interested in football.

[2298] But, like, my daughter was like, she dyed her hair red.

[2299] I know.

[2300] She wants the chiefs to win.

[2301] For Taylor.

[2302] But she wants.

[2303] Yeah.

[2304] And so, like, if you're a diehard chiefs fan, you're like, you don't even want them to win for them.

[2305] You want them to win for her.

[2306] But should it, if you're a chiefs.

[2307] fan shouldn't you just be like yes we have more people we have more people on our side yeah it's like liking the band before they blow up like you have ownership feeling of ownership and now you feel like all these people yeah that's understandable it is I just um and again it's a huge umbrella and there's misogyny and there's weird right wing conspiracies there's a lot going on there's a bunch of different reactions to this weird phenomena that's happened I just also I'm like stop caring about it like the men that are really upset and like talking about it on fucking fox news like come on this is crazy to me they're not embarrassed that they're talking about it exactly that's that to me is like you're so mad about them showing her that you're now talking about her and you're creating i don't know that participating in something you're very judgmental of is kind of funny like even you and i were gossiping about somebody and i said well let's just own the fact that we're gossiping about them.

[2308] So like, you know.

[2309] Well, we were talking about them.

[2310] Yeah, Taylor and.

[2311] Yeah.

[2312] We were, I guess it was this.

[2313] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2314] You were talking about them.

[2315] But we were talking about how everyone's talking about them and how I'm actually worried.

[2316] Right.

[2317] I have a fear that she's too, she's too on top of the mountain right now and everyone's going to bring her down.

[2318] Turn on her.

[2319] And it's not her.

[2320] I'm feeling protective.

[2321] I'm feeling very protective.

[2322] I'm feeling scared for her.

[2323] I want to, like, her to come hang.

[2324] Uh -huh.

[2325] I sit with bear.

[2326] liberty yeah and just like be safe for a little bit yeah because people are scary out there yeah they're mean yeah it's cute that you feel protective of her you're very much a swifty i feel protective of a lot of people yeah in this life i went the other way i was like god if they lose he's gonna have his own journey of having lost a super bowl i only know what it's like to like my movie didn't open and i know that takes me months to get over yeah If they lose the Super Bowl, they're going to take that on personally.

[2327] Yeah.

[2328] And so I was just predicting someone, like, I'll use myself.

[2329] If I started dating someone three months ago and then my movie came out and tanked and they had to deal with me working through that for the next three months, that's quite a stressor on a new relationship.

[2330] I started thinking if they lose this game, what happens to this relationship?

[2331] Because that's just, that's a big moment to process in a new relationship.

[2332] Yeah, I wonder.

[2333] They would have blamed her, right?

[2334] That would have been a new element too.

[2335] Oh, 100%.

[2336] So he'd be wrestling with all this stuff.

[2337] Then all the fans would be saying he didn't perform because of her.

[2338] And then so she would have her own issue.

[2339] She's got to navigate.

[2340] It would be a lot if they lost.

[2341] I mean, she would for sure get blamed.

[2342] I mean, that's true.

[2343] I think she's smart enough.

[2344] She would have wrote a song.

[2345] Is Jada's fault?

[2346] Yeah, it's always the woman's fault.

[2347] It's the woman's fault if he lost.

[2348] It's her fault that they've won.

[2349] Not to her credit.

[2350] It's not to her credit if they win, but it is her fault if they lose.

[2351] It's like something they've overcome that she's there.

[2352] It's crazy.

[2353] Anyway, the NFL gets it.

[2354] They're the reason.

[2355] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2356] Well, they're not going to not give the people what they want.

[2357] They're in the business of giving people what they want.

[2358] They've made so much money.

[2359] Well, they haven't made more money.

[2360] Yeah, they have.

[2361] There's a whole, there's a whole stat.

[2362] Can you look it up?

[2363] Well, just the TV rights have already been sold for the next seven years.

[2364] Like merchandise?

[2365] I don't know.

[2366] I mean, ratings, I guess.

[2367] I know.

[2368] I'm only saying they're not compensated for that.

[2369] Like, the money they made from the Super Bowl was made three years ago when they signed this contract.

[2370] There's no, like, real -time adjustments for them.

[2371] They've reported that she generated more than $330 million for the NFL and chiefs.

[2372] Yeah, according to Apex Marketing Group, Swift attended 12 games leading up to the Super Bowl.

[2373] So, also, people going.

[2374] They weren't already sold out those chief games.

[2375] I guess now, or the ticket price just went up.

[2376] Oh, that's fine.

[2377] possible.

[2378] I'm just trying to, I'm not challenging you.

[2379] I'm trying to figure out how they would have adjusted since everything's so pre -sold.

[2380] That's all I'm trying to figure out.

[2381] The AFC championship game saw, yeah, saw some 55 million viewers making it the most watch ever.

[2382] Yeah, I think she generated money for networks.

[2383] So merchandise, sponsorship, ticket sales, and social media.

[2384] Oh.

[2385] CBS Sports reported Kelsey's jersey sales spike nearly 400 %, launching him into one of the top five selling jerseys in the NFL.

[2386] Well, also, look, that guy was never on a commercial, and he's in every commercial now.

[2387] Now, their podcast is also, like, huge.

[2388] She was on it the other day.

[2389] She was!

[2390] I think so.

[2391] I saw some little video.

[2392] It's like, oh, my God.

[2393] It's like, who can I date?

[2394] Get them on here.

[2395] Yeah.

[2396] I feel guilty.

[2397] This is reminding me I feel guilty.

[2398] Well, for Monday's episode Bateman, where we talk about Ben and Matt, and I say, I want to marry Matt.

[2399] After, then I saw the commercial and I felt like, oh, damn it, I should never have said that.

[2400] Because you don't, you're not positive.

[2401] I just, I'm not positive, and I don't want to have that out and they're there in the world.

[2402] Okay.

[2403] But I, it is out there in the world.

[2404] Yeah.

[2405] I have guilt.

[2406] I'm just going to say, I have guilt.

[2407] Okay.

[2408] I'm glad I would clear that up.

[2409] Yeah.

[2410] You rescind that.

[2411] Yeah, I want to take it all back.

[2412] Gotcha.

[2413] And I'm not saying I take it all back to say the opposite.

[2414] I just take it all back.

[2415] Right.

[2416] You have children and you picked a favorite and you realize you don't have a favorite.

[2417] Yeah.

[2418] Okay.

[2419] Well, a couple facts.

[2420] This is for Charles Duhigg.

[2421] Oh, he was really fun.

[2422] Yeah, I liked him a lot.

[2423] And sweet.

[2424] But pause just super quick on Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

[2425] It's so good.

[2426] Oh, I can't wait.

[2427] I'm really excited.

[2428] Did you start it?

[2429] Yeah, I finished it.

[2430] You watched the whole thing, too?

[2431] Did you like it?

[2432] Yeah.

[2433] It's like tonally, it's so.

[2434] fun.

[2435] I will, if I can be fully, can I be honest?

[2436] Yes.

[2437] I know you love boys, some boys so much.

[2438] Mm -hmm.

[2439] And I know you love Donald.

[2440] You love this boy so much.

[2441] I do.

[2442] I do.

[2443] Yeah.

[2444] But I know that you really love some boys.

[2445] Would you agree?

[2446] Yeah.

[2447] Yeah.

[2448] And so you've told me how great it is and I'm really inclined to think it is.

[2449] I, that is my expectation.

[2450] But I have wondered how much you've inflated, great it is because you're so smitten with Donald.

[2451] And will I be able to experience that?

[2452] It's most the Atlanta team that made it.

[2453] Oh, it is.

[2454] Oh, cool.

[2455] Hero.

[2456] Same director.

[2457] Yeah.

[2458] Oh, wow.

[2459] He's awesome.

[2460] This is exactly what I just said.

[2461] But I believe, I can, I can, this isn't baseless.

[2462] So the one show that this happened on, that I can remember the most.

[2463] And I think I even got you to admit this a little bit.

[2464] What?

[2465] Well, hold on.

[2466] Give me a fair day and card.

[2467] Was that show Lupin?

[2468] I loved Lupin.

[2469] I know you did.

[2470] I know you did.

[2471] And it's, okay.

[2472] Go on.

[2473] Go on.

[2474] And the guy is so attractive and fucking sexy.

[2475] He is?

[2476] Yes.

[2477] And so when I watched it, I was like, it's an okay show.

[2478] If I were watching someone I was in love, like Alicia Vicander and Ex Machina.

[2479] Okay.

[2480] I'm not talking.

[2481] Go on.

[2482] But the look on your face.

[2483] I'm listening and reacting.

[2484] I'm not interrupting.

[2485] I think that one got a little bump.

[2486] I think that one got a little bump.

[2487] Okay.

[2488] I think I don't know what to say.

[2489] Can I own it on my side of the street?

[2490] Maybe they'd be helpful?

[2491] Alicia Bikander, you just said that.

[2492] That one, like X Machina affected men in some.

[2493] And a couple of the early Scarlet Johansson movies, a lot of women I knew were like, yeah, it was good.

[2494] And a lot of guys were like, oh, my God, that movie.

[2495] movie.

[2496] Because something was really happening.

[2497] You know, you're like, you're in love with the person you're watching.

[2498] And it's like, yeah, but it's also a little, I mean, it's not because you're owning it on your side of the street, too.

[2499] But to say, like, that I couldn't be objective about a thing because of a sexy factor.

[2500] But that's not male female.

[2501] We can't make it that because I think men do it too.

[2502] Right.

[2503] I really liked that show.

[2504] I thought it was a sexy show because he was sexy.

[2505] But there are a lot of things I watch where there's someone who I find extremely attractive or sexy, and I can enjoy it for that and know that this isn't like great.

[2506] I also know a bunch of people who watch Lupin, of all genders, who liked it.

[2507] So I don't think it's huge.

[2508] So I had a specific issue with it.

[2509] You and I have a very consistent opinion of writing.

[2510] We used to watch a ton of shows together.

[2511] You and I would generally look at each other at the exact same moment and we would have had an issue with the writing.

[2512] Like that was too convenient or they just broke their own rule.

[2513] You and I are on that.

[2514] That happens to be, I think, the thing that we're most in sync on.

[2515] Okay.

[2516] So Lupin was just like so grossly convenient at all times that it was like as a, from a writing standpoint, I was like, oh my God, everything's so easy.

[2517] And then that happened, that happened.

[2518] How is this person a superhero, but it's not a superhero show.

[2519] So not everyone would had this problem, but I definitely think you and I would have had this problem.

[2520] So then I was like, why didn't the writing bother her?

[2521] And I was like, oh, it's the same as me watching early Scarlett Johansson.

[2522] I'm like, I'm pretty distracted by this thing.

[2523] And I'm probably not as critical of this other thing because my attention has gone to this thing.

[2524] Maybe.

[2525] Also, we have to leave some room for us having different opinions on different things.

[2526] And I just, I thought that show was so fun.

[2527] I did not, yeah, I didn't need it to be a hundred percent.

[2528] Like, I could buy into what it was early and then just very much enjoy that ride without being critical of it, of those things.

[2529] Maybe I wouldn't.

[2530] Well, I'm susceptible to it.

[2531] I'll just keep it to me. I'm susceptible to enjoy a movie if I am having very strong feelings about the lead of the movie.

[2532] I am susceptible to them.

[2533] Yeah.

[2534] Well, anyway, I really loved Mr. Smith.

[2535] Not just because of him.

[2536] She's incredible in it.

[2537] Is she a new fresh face or she been in a bunch of other stuff?

[2538] She was on Penn 15.

[2539] That was a big show.

[2540] Yeah.

[2541] And their chemistry is great.

[2542] It's very natural.

[2543] I assume a lot of it is improvised.

[2544] It is sexy.

[2545] I find it very sexy, but more real sexy.

[2546] So I think I'm curious about what you think.

[2547] I'm curious.

[2548] But now I'm nervous that you're going to watch it with that in mind.

[2549] No. Not at all.

[2550] Okay.

[2551] Not at all.

[2552] How can you be sure?

[2553] Because I wouldn't make myself not like something because I'm trying to prove that you are.

[2554] I think it would be a subconscious.

[2555] I think I'm pretty in charge of that realm of my thinking.

[2556] Okay.

[2557] We don't know.

[2558] We don't know.

[2559] By the way, I didn't decide that's what was going on.

[2560] I just said, I wonder.

[2561] Because I know you're super smit with him, as am I. Right.

[2562] Like, it shouldn't be, I guess it shouldn't be any different.

[2563] You and I both love him.

[2564] So whatever you're saying is going to be innate in that.

[2565] It should be equal.

[2566] If it's not, then that feels a little gendered.

[2567] Well, you like boys and I like girls.

[2568] That's a reality of this dynamic.

[2569] But we both love Donald.

[2570] lover and talk about him all the time and how sexy he is.

[2571] You talk about it.

[2572] Absolutely.

[2573] But I don't ever go to a place where I want to be laying on a pillow next to his pillow and looking at him.

[2574] That's like a, that's a zone that I don't have.

[2575] Yeah.

[2576] He's not Ben and Matt to me. I haven't like spent hours daydreaming about what my life would be like with him.

[2577] Right.

[2578] I think I remember some things you said when that incredible video he made came out.

[2579] You were having some very strong feelings at that point.

[2580] So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2581] Okay.

[2582] Anyway, I think you'll have to report back.

[2583] Let me ask you this, though, because you're, you feel offended by what I'm saying.

[2584] Don't put that on me. I don't feel offended.

[2585] I'm just breaking it.

[2586] I'm not saying you are.

[2587] To me, it feels like I've offended, I've offended you by suggesting that your attraction to someone might alter how you.

[2588] My objectivity.

[2589] Yes.

[2590] And that feels offensive.

[2591] to you.

[2592] Or it feels to me like I've offended you by suggesting that.

[2593] You have not offended me. But I am going to, I'm going to push back.

[2594] Okay.

[2595] Which is what I did.

[2596] Push, push.

[2597] Yeah.

[2598] But now I haven't needed a new show because I watched that show so.

[2599] I don't know if you're going to like this one or not.

[2600] Okay.

[2601] This is, I very low percentage that I think you'll like it.

[2602] But I'm loving it, which is I started Griselda.

[2603] And you're loving it I'm loving it Mind you I loved the first season of Narcos The first one made by the Brazilian filmmakers Was fucking mind -blowing Whoa mind -blowing This is the quote it starts with So good I've only feared one man in my life And it was a woman named Griselda Pablo Escobar Oh I like that I mean Pablo is the baddest of the bad He said there's only one man I've ever been afraid of, and it was a woman named Griseldo.

[2604] I like that.

[2605] Is it dark and like edgy?

[2606] Yeah.

[2607] Oh, yeah, it's violent and it's coke.

[2608] They're marketing it weird.

[2609] The reason I think you might like it, Monica, was crazy, violent and coky, which you don't love.

[2610] Yeah.

[2611] It is a woman in 1975 building a Coke empire in Miami against all of these distributors who are like the most machismo Colombian.

[2612] I do love that.

[2613] Yeah, and she's just like indomitable.

[2614] Yeah.

[2615] that's cool it's a fucking cool story yeah that very and she was known as the godmother oh i've only been afraid of one man a woman named herself yeah i mean it's also he's in on it he's in on it but he's also like refusing to give up well i guess it's at the time too and the culture they would never not have men at the top of the it was only men until her yeah that's that's cool back to our expert charles charles in charge um how did the national newspapers rank okay and as of 2023 the newspaper with the highest print circulation in the united states in the six months running to march 2023 was the wall street journal no kidding yes that wouldn't have been my guess me either um ranking second new york times followed by the post Washington post yeah spotlight oh no the paper yeah that was a good movie mark ruffer off the paper in the ranking with the highest year over year drop in circulation was the Atlanta journal constitution I'm sorry Atlanta I'm sad about that okay there's a good article there's a well it's an opinion article but and I actually don't know if it's good um about because I looked up what's the biggest predictor of voting and this is a about the diploma divide.

[2616] Oh, right.

[2617] And that being the biggest factor right now, which...

[2618] College diploma.

[2619] Yeah.

[2620] Because it used to be religion before that.

[2621] Mm, that makes sense.

[2622] Okay, I thought this was interesting about laughter.

[2623] It doesn't, you know, it doesn't always coincide with what's funny.

[2624] That's what he was saying 80 % of laughter is actually showing you're connecting.

[2625] It's not that something's funny.

[2626] Right.

[2627] That's why it's so misleading for some people.

[2628] I think they're funny.

[2629] Yeah, they think they're funny.

[2630] Especially if they're in power because the underlings are trying to show, I hear you, I'm with you, like me. I have witnessed that more in my life than probably anything else, where people that are famous and have status and have a lot of people doing their hair and makeup around them at all times have convinced themselves that are really funny.

[2631] And it's so embarrassing.

[2632] It is.

[2633] By the way, this isn't like, I also saw it at GM, like the eighth level person thought he was Rodney Dangerfield.

[2634] Bosses, like a bosses in general need to be super aware of this.

[2635] Minimally just hack off 30 % of how funny you think you are.

[2636] And more than funny, smart, charming, like all of it, all the things that you start to think about yourself.

[2637] Yeah.

[2638] It's probably exacerbated.

[2639] How are they to know?

[2640] That's what's confusing.

[2641] Before you have that, it's a real response.

[2642] Yeah.

[2643] And then all of a sudden, you trust that that responsibility.

[2644] response is real.

[2645] And now all of a sudden everyone's laughing around you, but you haven't gotten any funny here.

[2646] I know.

[2647] Okay.

[2648] Let's see.

[2649] Well, you'll like this.

[2650] Playfulness is considered the basis of humor.

[2651] Oh.

[2652] A play with ideas.

[2653] But not all play is humorous.

[2654] Cheerfulness is considered the temperamental basis of good humor, a disposition for laughter and for keeping humor in face of adversity, but mostly overlaps with the socio -effective.

[2655] I don't, I don't want to, this is weird.

[2656] I don't, I feel like it's trying to scienceify something that's magic.

[2657] I'd rather leave playful as playful.

[2658] Okay.

[2659] I'm not asking you to stop.

[2660] I'm just saying I agree with you.

[2661] And I think that's my issue with it is like, let's not try to break this down into a social science.

[2662] I agree.

[2663] Playfulness.

[2664] Yeah.

[2665] Also, it's a reflex.

[2666] Like also people laugh when they're uncomfortable.

[2667] People laugh for all kinds of reasons.

[2668] But yeah, it's a social tool.

[2669] Right.

[2670] Oh, you said that I'm a CIA operative.

[2671] And I shouldn't have blown your cover?

[2672] Yeah.

[2673] Sorry about that.

[2674] That was a big...

[2675] Are you in trouble over at Langley?

[2676] I have...

[2677] I have some answers.

[2678] I have some things I have to talk to them about.

[2679] This is probably...

[2680] I know, well, this is part of my fantastical ego.

[2681] Part of my fantastical ego is that I have...

[2682] I guess like the guy who wrote the book, Dangerous Mind, or whatever it was, Clooney made a movie out of it, Sam Rockwell Played.

[2683] There was a game show host who later wrote a book in his retirement claiming to have been of a dangerous mind.

[2684] Yeah, something like that.

[2685] Yeah, that he had been a CIA operative.

[2686] But it is the perfect cover.

[2687] Like, I could be kind of anywhere in meeting with high -level people, and you're just not going to think I'm a CIA operative.

[2688] Right.

[2689] How can I be doing both?

[2690] It's a good cover.

[2691] Wait, what?

[2692] Say it again.

[2693] I was a problem.

[2694] Like, I can travel through the world.

[2695] Yeah.

[2696] And it doesn't look suspicious.

[2697] Oh.

[2698] Like, it's conceivable I would be at the parliament somewhere.

[2699] Seth Myers, he was in Israel and met the prime minister and had Googled the prime minister to make sure he knew everything about the prime minister.

[2700] And then at a certain point, he went to a bookshelf and he said, let me show you this.

[2701] And he walked by that prime minister's computer.

[2702] And he saw on the screen of his computer, he had Seth Myers Wikipedia page bold.

[2703] Yes, yes, this is a great moment.

[2704] No, no, no. I mean vice president.

[2705] I don't know.

[2706] I don't know.

[2707] Let's just be careful because that's a big guy.

[2708] So that's not who it was.

[2709] There's someone really high up in the Israeli government.

[2710] This is a year and a half ago.

[2711] Okay.

[2712] But just the laugh he had when he saw that that person had done the same thing he had done, which has gone to Wikipedia and had this meeting anyways.

[2713] Yeah, that's the comedy of being high status.

[2714] It's like, yeah, that person's high status.

[2715] I'm high status.

[2716] We should meet.

[2717] For no reason.

[2718] No one knew who each other was.

[2719] They weren't really whatever the case.

[2720] My point is I could end up anywhere.

[2721] and it wouldn't be suspicious.

[2722] Right, but also, on the flip side of that, you're going to go noticed.

[2723] Right, hiding in plain sight.

[2724] Yeah.

[2725] Hiding in plain sight.

[2726] I could woo a woman that's, like, high up in the Russian government.

[2727] Like, I could meet her at a hotel.

[2728] She'd be thinking she was meeting a celebrity.

[2729] We could have a little affair.

[2730] She could try to impress me and tell me some stuff that happens at work.

[2731] I could get that real information and report it back to Langley.

[2732] And like, she would never leave thinking, oh, I bet he had wooed me intentionally to get information.

[2733] I mean, she would think I was a celebrity.

[2734] Then it would be in the tablet.

[2735] Like, you could have people would take pictures and it could be in the tabloid.

[2736] You have to assume I'm not like married or something in this case.

[2737] Oh, I thought you were saying you.

[2738] The point is like, I'm famous.

[2739] You're a Russian ambassador.

[2740] And you're at this nice hotel in London and I am too.

[2741] And we start chatting at a bar.

[2742] Now, normally that ambassador knows If I'm being wooed by a foreigner, I got to have my guard up because they're probably worked for the CIA.

[2743] Whereas in this case, my celebrity would transcend that.

[2744] It would overpower that.

[2745] They would just go like, oh, wow, I'm meeting George Clooney.

[2746] Right.

[2747] Your guard would go down.

[2748] You're like, oh, this person's not that.

[2749] I know what this person is.

[2750] It's a great cover.

[2751] That's what that movie was about?

[2752] It was about this guy's claims that he was working.

[2753] He claims to have gone to other countries and assassinated people while he was a game show.

[2754] Wow.

[2755] Chuck Barris.

[2756] You know, I think this might be just lore or maybe I made it up.

[2757] I don't think I did.

[2758] But I think my mom was recruited.

[2759] She didn't do it.

[2760] Or maybe she did.

[2761] But she was groomed as an intelligence asset.

[2762] That's also another good way to go is to tell people that you were recruited.

[2763] And then what happens?

[2764] Because then you're like, well, and she obviously didn't do it.

[2765] But you, like, they're like half telling a truth so that it becomes more plausible.

[2766] Like, if you're like, what's the CIA?

[2767] Then you're obviously, you're in it.

[2768] Yeah, yeah.

[2769] Tell me your mom's story.

[2770] Did a handsome man try to woo her at a cocktail bar?

[2771] I'm nervous it's all made up.

[2772] Okay.

[2773] Should I text her?

[2774] Let's go.

[2775] No, let me call her.

[2776] No. Yes, it's so much more fun when I call her.

[2777] I don't know how she's feeling.

[2778] Well, I'll find out in a. second.

[2779] Hey, Dax.

[2780] How are you?

[2781] Hi, beautiful.

[2782] Mom, I'm here too.

[2783] You're on the show again.

[2784] Okay.

[2785] Mom, didn't you, did I make, did I make this up or did you kind of get recruited by the CIA?

[2786] Did I make it?

[2787] Did you need me to repeat that?

[2788] She's across the room.

[2789] Yeah, I can barely hear you.

[2790] She wants to know.

[2791] She vaguely remembers hearing that maybe someone attempted to recruit you from the CIA.

[2792] Oh, no, no, no, no. No, this was, no, NSA, that was, when I was in college, we interviewed for a job with the NSA.

[2793] And I wasn't a citizen at the time, so, you know, I couldn't.

[2794] I mean, it kind of just went flat.

[2795] So it was almost the opposite story, which is you would have liked to have worked for the NSA, but you couldn't because you weren't.

[2796] Well, if you interviewed, did they want you?

[2797] Well, I didn't find out until the end.

[2798] I mean, the interview went well.

[2799] Right.

[2800] I didn't find out to almost the end of the interview that you have to be, you know, you have to have been.

[2801] Well, I mean, I think I don't even know, I think you just had to be a citizen.

[2802] I don't, you can be a naturalized citizen too.

[2803] But at that time, I wasn't, so.

[2804] Have you ever fantasized about what your life would have been like had you become an NSA agent?

[2805] Not really.

[2806] Could you spend the afternoon doing that and then tell me what you came up with?

[2807] You could have, like, been flying all over the world.

[2808] A real good friend of mine, and, you know, we both kind of did it.

[2809] And he actually went to work for NSA.

[2810] I mean, so I'm glad that that fell through because, I mean, it's a very secret type of, you mean, you can't tell people anything about what you're doing.

[2811] Wink, wink, I think I just got what you're saying, which is you did get the job.

[2812] And now you're sworn to not tell us you got the job.

[2813] Wow.

[2814] Yeah, okay.

[2815] But does he keep his name?

[2816] Yeah.

[2817] Oh, you're allowed to keep your name?

[2818] I mean, it's not like that.

[2819] I mean, it's not like the CIA, you know, I don't think it's like that.

[2820] I feel like I'm privy to your guys' relationship when you're back at home, Monica, where you're yelling from your bedroom and your mom's trying to hear you.

[2821] Yeah.

[2822] Yep, this is what she does.

[2823] She's always, you know, you're always like, do you want tea?

[2824] What?

[2825] Yeah, that's pretty much it.

[2826] Did you watch the Super Bowl, Nirmie?

[2827] Yeah.

[2828] Yeah, we watched that.

[2829] It was a pretty good game.

[2830] Ended up being one.

[2831] Who were you rooting for?

[2832] Kansas City.

[2833] Kansas City, yeah.

[2834] Two questions.

[2835] Did Monica tell you I've tried to send you barbecue three times now in that fucking restaurant?

[2836] Are you serious?

[2837] Yes, I don't know why that restaurant's on Postmates because I've ordered it three times and it's been declined after I've ordered it three times.

[2838] So I see she didn't tell you that.

[2839] So there's that.

[2840] Secondly, did you have a favorite commercial?

[2841] Oh, that one with Jennifer Aniston.

[2842] Oh, Uber Eats.

[2843] That was really funny, yeah.

[2844] That was the best.

[2845] And what was your favorite part of that one?

[2846] That guy in the underwear.

[2847] What guy in the underwear?

[2848] Oh, God.

[2849] What was that?

[2850] I don't know, he just was, I didn't even, I mean, it was just hilarious.

[2851] I didn't even care most of it because I was, I had something else on while I was watching, but I just saw it.

[2852] He was walking into the room with a shirt and just an underwear.

[2853] Yeah, I actually, I actually, I didn't.

[2854] I do.

[2855] I do.

[2856] I mean, it was walking into a break room at an office.

[2857] Yes.

[2858] That is exactly what it was because he forgot.

[2859] He forgot how to put his pants on it.

[2860] You're supposed to wear pants.

[2861] Yeah.

[2862] Anyway, yeah, it was some good ones.

[2863] What was the other media you were consuming at the same time?

[2864] I was just watching something on YouTube.

[2865] Oh, my God.

[2866] You're like a millennial.

[2867] I get bored very fast.

[2868] Uh -huh.

[2869] Same with your daughter.

[2870] She's already tuned out.

[2871] I just saw her face.

[2872] I don't know what we're doing anymore.

[2873] We called about NSA.

[2874] Oh, here we go.

[2875] Monica's got pretty good focus.

[2876] Thank you, Mom.

[2877] She and a show, they both have focus pretty well.

[2878] Me and Neil were like sometimes all over the place.

[2879] Uh -huh.

[2880] Thanks for sharing that.

[2881] Well, I love you just the same.

[2882] Thanks for always taking my calls, for real.

[2883] It's so fun to call you and hear from you.

[2884] Okay, thank you.

[2885] Bye, Mom.

[2886] Bye.

[2887] I love her.

[2888] I would watch the game with her.

[2889] I mean, I would tell her like, Nirmie, shut those fucking things You've got too many things going on.

[2890] You'll never get her to not do that.

[2891] So when you guys are watching even like Dateline or something, she's running like three other things?

[2892] Wow.

[2893] No, one other, her iPad.

[2894] She's always on her iPad with headphones.

[2895] And do you feel like she misses a lot of what you guys are watching?

[2896] She has to, right?

[2897] She's not really, she's not really watching it.

[2898] She does this thing.

[2899] I know she's doing it.

[2900] Like if we start a movie or something, she, five minutes into the movie, she'll look up stuff about the movie.

[2901] Okay, right.

[2902] Go down a rabbit hole.

[2903] As the movie's happening, she's like reading stuff about it.

[2904] So she knows stuff.

[2905] Oh, I hate that.

[2906] Yeah.

[2907] Natalie does that.

[2908] Really?

[2909] Trust me nuts.

[2910] Well, if she's not invested in it.

[2911] I've never heard of this.

[2912] I've never seen.

[2913] Kristen does that too.

[2914] When we were watching the plumbers, the White House plumbers, because it's historic and all of this stuff that's happening on screens really happened.

[2915] So it's like there's a flight.

[2916] And then all of a sudden, we're going to find out the real answer of whether the CIA blew up this plane or not.

[2917] You know, I'm, I'm content to wait for the show tell me when I need to hear that conclusion.

[2918] But Kristen will look that up real time as well.

[2919] Yeah, she didn't that American nightmare.

[2920] I like started it and she was like reading it.

[2921] She's like, want me to tell you what happens?

[2922] Right.

[2923] Oh, I'm watching.

[2924] I want to finish this.

[2925] The whole point is that we're watching this.

[2926] But she has too much anxiety.

[2927] I think that's it.

[2928] And she has not enough interest in it already and was not planning to watch it with me. Right.

[2929] Like football pre -tailor.

[2930] Yeah.

[2931] Bring it all the way back around.

[2932] But I don't, I don't have a lot.

[2933] of anxiety.

[2934] You know, so I don't need to know how things are.

[2935] I do, but that is not my MO.

[2936] Right.

[2937] You're a good TV watcher.

[2938] Thank you.

[2939] I think I am.

[2940] You watched that whole Mr. Mrs. Smith from Friday to Monday, Sunday, Friday night to Saturday night.

[2941] Oh, wow, you got through the whole thing by Saturday night.

[2942] You're nasty.

[2943] I stayed up so late.

[2944] Oh, my God, naughty girl.

[2945] And I started Mr. Ms. Smith, the movie all in that time.

[2946] Wow.

[2947] You got a lot done this week.

[2948] All righty.

[2949] Love you.

[2950] Love you.

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