Alex Scott: I’ve Never Told The FULL Truth About My Past

[0] I'm in a room, listening to everything, go on, and just hoping she's alive.

[1] That was the hardest night at that book.

[2] Alex Scott!

[3] 140 caps, three World Cups, four European championships, and 12 international goals, Alex Scott.

[4] Football was allowing me that platform to see things, learn things about the world that I know was making me even more hungry.

[5] And to keep that, I needed to keep doing well at football.

[6] You couldn't speak growing up.

[7] because of a speech impediment.

[8] How did that impact your life?

[9] There's certain things I just can't say.

[10] But it's almost I found a habit of just laughing at myself before everyone else laughs at me. Here I am getting nothing but pure hate.

[11] Death threats and abuse.

[12] And when I've got to say, I'm not, I can't do this anymore.

[13] My dad had this dark side.

[14] So my protection was to try and love my dad all I can and all those darkness in the demons will go.

[15] Did that work?

[16] I've done this book to free my mum.

[17] On the other hand, I'm scared that it could ruin my dad's life.

[18] Without further ado, I'm Stephen Butler, and this is the diary of a CEO.

[19] I hope nobody's listening.

[20] But if you are, then please keep this yourself.

[21] Alex, we sit here in East London today.

[22] Yeah.

[23] And your story starts in East London as well.

[24] Take me right back to East London when you grew up in some, when was that, 1980 something?

[25] 84.

[26] Yeah.

[27] Take me back.

[28] Well, instantly, even when you say East London, I'm smiling because I have so many happy memories and the feeling that it gave me a sense of community, everyone looking after you, even though it's surrounded by struggle and hardship, it makes me smile.

[29] East London, instantly I can go to playing in the football cage because that football cage was a freedom.

[30] For me, it was an out, it was an escape.

[31] It allowed me, that football cage allowed me to start dreaming of a world that, I don't know, that I never thought that I'd be able to see or imagine.

[32] But in that space, it gave me that.

[33] When was the first time you'd watched a football match?

[34] How did football come into your life?

[35] I don't actually even remember sitting down to watch a football game on TV.

[36] Because both my mum and dad, they weren't athletes.

[37] So it's not a thing that we'd sit down and watch a football match.

[38] But in that area that I grew up in, that football cage was everything.

[39] It was the community.

[40] It was where people came together.

[41] And I think that's how I got into football and that's what I liked.

[42] It gave me that connection to other people.

[43] So for me, it wasn't dreaming that, you know, I wanted to play football or be a professional footballer.

[44] That wasn't it at all.

[45] It was a sense of a safe space in that football cage.

[46] and feeling at one with everyone else in the neighbourhood.

[47] Escapism, a safe space.

[48] Mm -hmm.

[49] Why was it a safe space?

[50] A safe space from a home environment.

[51] The football cage was fun.

[52] I could smile.

[53] You felt free.

[54] And in home, it was like I was locked in.

[55] It was an environment where it was very much control.

[56] Controlled.

[57] Controlled by your father?

[58] Mm -hmm.

[59] Yeah.

[60] Tell me about your mother and father.

[61] My mom?

[62] A woman that is an incredible person.

[63] Full of love, full of softness, and just a light around her.

[64] That wants to do everything for everyone before herself.

[65] Doesn't even think about herself.

[66] No, it doesn't even see.

[67] the person that she is.

[68] Because ultimately that was taken away from her.

[69] My dad, even though I see the loving my dad, I wanted to love my dad so much, I was a daddy's little girl.

[70] But he had this dark side.

[71] And that's the side that we saw a lot of growing up.

[72] When was the first time you recall seeing your father's dark side?

[73] I can't put an age to it, to be honest.

[74] But it was there.

[75] mostly what I can always remember that you saw this love inside and I always say the drink but obviously the drink helps it come out a lot more but you could see him turn like his thoughts or what he was going through in his mind that's how he took it out on and say all of us more so my mum but yeah it was just for me it was just sad because I could see this good in my dad that was there when he smiled when he was listening to music and that's the side I just always wanted to see and was begging to to stay there but it wasn't in that home was you your brother and your mum yeah these memories how old were you and you started having these memories about this other side of your father well he left when I was seven so from the moment from a baby from two three I could see and feel you can feel it the environment that we're in that you're not allowed to do something because if you do step out of line you know what's going to happen and you don't want that to happen what's going to happen when my mum would go through the terror the helplessness that you can't do anything just as yeah so you're living in fear you're living in fear every single moment hence why then the football cage becomes your escape for me did you want to go home after school after yeah I wanted to go home to protect my mum I wanted to go home to put a shield around her to be strong for her even though she was doing the same for me and my brother but it's like you wanted to protect someone but how can I I can't so my protection was to try and love my dad all I can to keep trying to bring that side out of him if he has the love then maybe he'll start loving us in that way and all those darkness and the demons will go did that work no no it's weird because I sit here with you and then say it is dark and straight away it's it's hard for me to talk about because i suppose i've hit it for all this time it's easy not to talk about it but even though there's so much darkness there's so much i remember the good times with my dad i remember going to the record shops and buying vials and coming back and dancing my dad loved these music i love my music because of that so there's so many things that yeah even though all those dark times i know because of everything that i've gone through i am the person i am now you have to take the good bits and the bad bits and it's what makes me me you said earlier that your mother had been she'd had her personality or the the goodness taken from her you alluded to the fact that it was taken from her what do you mean by that because every reason single day.

[76] You see my mum walking on eggshells.

[77] She's scared to have a voice to say something because she knows what she's going to go through.

[78] So that light that is around her and the woman that she has been, that outgoing personality that, you know, everyone loves my mum.

[79] She doesn't see that because it's been stripped.

[80] She views herself as a coward.

[81] where as much as I try and tell her, she doesn't see herself like that.

[82] She's a coward for staying with my dad for those years, for not leaving earlier for her kids.

[83] So as much as we see her as an amazing woman, she doesn't see herself like that one bit.

[84] Still today.

[85] Still today.

[86] Still today.

[87] She's scared with my book coming out because I've finally told that story.

[88] She's scared that her friends are going to look at her in a certain way.

[89] Like I said, she calls herself a coward, where I had to see the woman that's so full of courage and the strength and the vulnerability that she's shown her whole life for us, for me and my brother.

[90] In the book, you talk about two vivid memories you have of that time, and one of them being the day your mother did, speak back to your dad at a joint birthday party.

[91] Yeah, yeah.

[92] Do you still remember that day?

[93] Yeah.

[94] What happened that day?

[95] Stephen, we had the most amazing birthday party.

[96] It's hard because there's not many things that were celebrated or those moments.

[97] And I don't even know how this party came about, whether it was for me and my brother or it was my dad throwing at a party because he was a big character.

[98] You know, everyone loved Tony Scott.

[99] he had this way about him.

[100] But we ended up having a birthday party in the local community, me and my brother.

[101] And just, yeah, the music, everyone was dancing.

[102] And that's where I could see my mum.

[103] You know, she was the life and soul of the party.

[104] Just her energy was so infectious.

[105] And then a party then ended in the community centre.

[106] We went back to the flat where I grew up in.

[107] And then it's just exactly it's a tone that I know all too well, that no one else knows apart from me and my brother and my mum when he asked her to go and get some lemonade she was in the middle of a conversation so a natural no totally you get your lemonade and it was that icy tone when he repeated it and she said no again it's all because I'm looking at you but I can see her so yeah then straight away I don't know what's coming as soon as everybody leaves that night He doesn't forget.

[108] So then we all know what's going to happen.

[109] My mum might have been brave enough and forgot in that moment because she's having fun.

[110] She's having a conversation with her friend.

[111] That was the hardest night of that one.

[112] You know, the thing about the book is we've never had the conversations.

[113] So my mum is trying to survive for her kids.

[114] And then I'm in a room listening to everything, go on, and just hoping she's alive.

[115] But she doesn't know what me and my brother are doing or feeling until I've wrote the book.

[116] In those moments, did you speak to your brother about it?

[117] No. You talk about being awake at night, hearing what your father's doing to your mother.

[118] And never knowing if your brother was laid there, thinking and feeling and feeling.

[119] hearing the same things you never looked over at him never spoke to him about it he was in the next room i had a little box room that was everything and then there's a silence the next day you're not allowed to speak until you're spoken to that's the environment we've grown up in so all you have is a look or trying to catch a feeling and our feeling is mom's alive that we've still got a mum for the moment when you woke up the day after that birthday incident that party incident yeah and you saw you sleep i didn't wake up yeah and you saw your mom what did you see this is empty sadness like what can she do someone's so hurt that every time she moves it hurts i heard everything i heard her trying to run and then so then as a five, six -year -old I just want to hug my mum but we can't you can't hug her no why wasn't allowed to show love I suppose that's why I suppose like a word like control is easy to say isn't it I suppose until you break it down and understand that's the control like we're not even allowed to show love or hug or speak, really.

[120] So the day after that incident, you're not allowed to go over to her and hug her?

[121] No. Your dad has told you you're not allowed to go and hug her.

[122] Yeah.

[123] What's the consequences if you hugged her?

[124] That's something that would happen to me and my brother.

[125] And did that happen to you and your brother?

[126] Yeah, if we spoke back, if we didn't obey orders, if you show love emotion you're not being strong you're not showing that you're strong right you just get on with things last night happened you just get on with things when when you look back and you've talked about this in your book as well about how in many respects that served you becoming a football player and it made you a little bit more i guess resilient shall i say um but when you look back at those early years and you see how emotion was disallowed or squeezed out of you Are there, were there words spoken that told you emotion was not a useful thing?

[127] Or was it just actions and behaviour?

[128] Where did you, where did you lose that sense of emotion and love and affection?

[129] For me, I always had it.

[130] I know from a kid I just wanted to give love.

[131] Okay.

[132] Or see the light in someone.

[133] I wasn't getting it from my dad or my mom was showing me in a different way.

[134] I know I wanted it.

[135] I was craving it.

[136] I remember my best friend Regan going around to her house.

[137] and they're huggers.

[138] Everything's so affectionate.

[139] Stephen, I would like freeze like this.

[140] She'd hug me and I'd just stand there.

[141] Like, oh my gosh, I don't even know what to do, what happens in this moment.

[142] And she laughs about it to this day.

[143] And still to the same, it's hard.

[144] You know, I don't hug my mum.

[145] But like, I want to.

[146] The other day, it was her birthday.

[147] It's like, all right, mum, little hug and pat on the back, love you.

[148] And then, like, she feels awkward.

[149] I'm kind of awkward because that's how we've grown up.

[150] We don't know how to do that.

[151] that I find it easier now because I've gone through the process of learning that and that it's okay but then when I go back into the environment to this day I don't I don't think I've ever hugged my brother because that's still that environment it's hard because for me I feel so lucky I've you know this career football now in broadcasting I've traveled the world I've educated myself in such a different way surround myself with people that affectionate I love I love I love giving love to other people and then I'll go back into that environment and straight away I'm like this again.

[152] It's like that frozen and it's hard because I've been on the journey doesn't mean you're ready for it that I can try and bring it out of you or I can baby steps but yeah.

[153] And I guess that environment is still a trigger so you haven't you haven't recovered in that environment.

[154] Yeah.

[155] You know, so for me it's kind of happy.

[156] We're so interesting also is my niece lives with us.

[157] We've had her since she was two, living with my mom and my brother at home in East End.

[158] She gets it all.

[159] And I see that through my mum, through my brother, for all the love that they didn't have or the hugs, they give it to her, which is beautiful, like you see it, but they still can't do it amongst themselves.

[160] No, that makes sense.

[161] The other moment you talk about in the book is the day that your mum told your dad to leave.

[162] Yeah.

[163] yeah she said she found it inner strength my nan had recently passed away um sudden and it was hard for my nan this story from my mum um because she knew what was going on even though it wasn't spoken about your nan knew what was going on yeah um and then yeah as soon as she passed away a sudden heart attack my mum found a strength to say no that's enough's enough um and she finally told him that that was it she said to me she was finding ways she had gone to someone run like a homeless shelter or something to see if she did run, would she be safe and then would they be out to then collect us afterwards?

[164] So she was trying to find ways to leave the environment, but she then always couldn't because it came back to me and my brother.

[165] And then, yeah, that day she finally, enough was enough.

[166] She said she just didn't care.

[167] She didn't care what would happen to her or whatever, but she knew that this couldn't go on anymore for the sake of me and my brother.

[168] Did she tell you what she said to her?

[169] No. I just remember getting the shout to come down the hallway.

[170] Me and my brother marching down and then waiting for an order or something and then him saying that we had to choose, that he was leaving and we have to choose there and then right then, whether we live with mum or live with dad.

[171] And me just looking at my brother like, what?

[172] And he's making us choose like right then.

[173] And I knew something had gone on because mum's got her back to us.

[174] So obviously something had happened on her face or because she couldn't look at us.

[175] It's a pretty disgusting situation to put children in, isn't it, to get them to pick a parent?

[176] Because regardless of the, and you talk about this as well in your book, is regardless of the abuse, you still love both parents, right?

[177] Yeah.

[178] That's my dad.

[179] Like I say, like I see, like, the smile or how he is.

[180] And I feel just sad.

[181] Like even to this day when I'm thinking about him, I'm just like, you know, suppose he's just sad.

[182] I don't want anyone to feel sadness, you know.

[183] So I remember in that moment, like, I was always, it's always my mum.

[184] I was always going to pick my mum.

[185] But it's the fault that my dad would be lonely as well.

[186] Like, how do I have, why do I have to choose?

[187] Like, in that moment, would you have chosen for things to stay how they were?

[188] no no so you would have chosen to just go with your mum yeah yeah yeah but it was just trying to process as a seven -year -old that my dad might feel lonely and what happens to my dad but no i need to protect my mom i need to be strong for my mom i need to look after her and then your dad leaves gone not just leaves leaves with everything everything furniture everything not that we even had a lot to take but it's still just you know you make do you get by but yeah he took everything mum let him take everything too because then he didn't have a hold over her anymore oh yeah and you stayed in the house we stayed in the house yeah what was life like beyond that point I think that's why I'm so lucky Stephen I had football I had that out.

[189] I had something to focus on.

[190] You know, so I'd escape into a different environment that gave me structure.

[191] Where I think for my mum and my brother, it was a lot harder.

[192] You know, you're still processing my brother.

[193] And I suppose this is where it hurts my mum because she puts a lot of blame on herself.

[194] We went from a controlled environment, which very much I was still in and in controlled, but a disciplined environment with football is very different.

[195] And so my brother totally went the opposite way.

[196] For someone that had been controlled and in that environment, he then had a freedom.

[197] But he didn't know what to do with that freedom.

[198] My mum didn't know what to do with it.

[199] So I think it was harder.

[200] It's been a lot harder for my brother.

[201] When you say it's been harder for your brother, what does that look like in reality?

[202] That I'd say even to this day, he doesn't know himself or what to do, his purpose.

[203] carrying guilt you know we talk about strength and stuff I know it's very different for men him feeling that he should have been that protector maybe you know when he looks at his baby sister I've managed to make a career or do something and he looks at his life and what has he done do you have these conversations with him as adults?

[204] No we can't we've not had a conversation about anything as a family we can't sit down we don't know how to there's not been a conversation about anything are you close close in a different way you know we hear stories of brothers and sisters and like that love we have for each other is so strong but in a different way it's protecting from afar we'll do anything for each other and be there but it's not to pick up the phone how are you sis what's happened what's going on in your life but no matter what you'll just always be there for each other what do you think that is why do you think there is such a distance because you don't know how to communicate we don't know how to talk when all of your life from all those age that age gap when my dad was in the house we didn't learn anything I've gone away from that and taught and educated myself differently but my mum and my brother still been in that.

[205] I feel a bit guilty actually because I remember going to therapy learning all of this, learning my behaviours, learning then to deal with my emotions and talk.

[206] And they're like, great, go and do this with my mum, my brother.

[207] You know, we'll start opening the conversation.

[208] But then actually it took my mum back to a place that hurts her, you know, and I did that because why?

[209] Oh, because I was ready.

[210] you had you had a conversation with her post therapy and it hurt her yeah it's bringing up all the stuff that's still so raw that she's never dealt with you just got on with life it's what you do right it's put a plaster over it you get on with stuff the mentality get your head down you get through things but actually you're not dealing with it are you it's still there it's still raw and it will show up it'll rear its heading very ugly ways at time if it's unaddressed because it's still controlling you it's just controlling you from like the back room somewhere that's what i almost think in terms of like domestic violence and what goes on i think we deal with a lot of stuff till when the person has left the environment right but then a lot of the work needs to start afterwards also like those conversations actually dealing with those emotions what next instead of like oh they've gone you can get on with life actually you can't because it's still there it's inside were you ever jealous of other families no you weren't never jealous no I feel I'm lucky I've had everything for my mum I've had the love they care her doing everything she can you know so I've never looked at other families and I feel lucky I've been invited into families that have shown me love or taking me away and had that but ultimately for me and my mum is absolutely everything she's done everything she can I won't be here this person right now if wasn't for everything that my mum has done for me in my life comparison can sometimes make us feel sad though because it's what comparison does is it gives us these kind of false expectations of how our life is supposed to be going so we look at another family and we look at Christmas they're all sat there and they're all they're dancing around the table and they've all got their little crowns on their head and then we look at our lives and go you know maybe I wish I had all my family here and we could we could have these moments you ever felt those kinds of things I know I have I spent quite a few Christmases on my own even in the last couple of years I think last year I was alone on Christmas people don't really know about that but I was but because my family's quite dysfunctional so getting them all to be happy in the same place is not such a simple task yeah so sometimes it's just easier I think I just flew to Portugal on Christmas last you know what it's so interesting you say that because i find myself removing myself from those situations that i feel uncomfortable with so same thing christmas i want to escape because for me it reminds me of sadness so it's not comparing to other people's families and the happiness and everything for me it reminds me of sadness so then i'd rather remove myself travel away be away in my own thoughts, then sit through it and see my mum's sadness, something that I can't change in her.

[211] It's like as if I'm still failing to make her happy in those moments.

[212] And that's hard for me. So it's never comparing to other families.

[213] It's just that I feel helpless in trying to help my mum.

[214] That hurts.

[215] Have you always seen that as your responsibility to cheer your mom up to keep her happy.

[216] Because you talked about rushing her from school to try and protect her and now that you feel like you're failing her.

[217] I don't know if I've ever thought about as a responsibility.

[218] I don't know.

[219] I think it's just something that's me that I've always, I'm a helper.

[220] I want to help people.

[221] I want them to be happy.

[222] I want to do everything I can for someone to bring joy to them.

[223] I don't know.

[224] Maybe it's because the upbringing, I didn't have much of that or something.

[225] I don't know.

[226] so I don't know I've not seen it as a responsibility but I just I want her to have a life that maybe she's missed you know and bring her that light back in order to do that she's going to have to confront some of the things that bring the pain back as well though right so we see it so many times in our friends and and people that you know they've been through something you know it's holding them back from living the fullest life they could live today but in order to unlock that fullest life, they have to go back through some stuff and bring it out into the open.

[227] And you see, I see it sometimes with my friends where I know they don't want to go back there.

[228] But if they don't, then they're going to, there's a risk that, in my view, and who's, who's the fucking mind to tell them about their lives?

[229] But they're going to end up missing out on the, like, the fullness of life.

[230] So it's this battle.

[231] It's like, do you want to keep on keeping on and just keep it in the back room and live a, live a less full life?

[232] Or do you want to go back there and do the hard work to try and unlock your it's a battle and it's like a fit yeah well what is it face the fear see the fear and face it and do it anyway like I'm of that mindset like it might be scary but I'm still going to do it I'm still going to give it a try but then I suppose everyone doesn't have that mindset today like in order to move forward or see into the future you can't if you're still driving looking in the rear view mirror like not dealing with all the past stuff behind and then so for me I think I've got to a like why am I talking about this in a book or you know it's been hard for all this like I've hidden it how long up till now I've never spoken about my upbringing or what's gone on in my life until this book until this moment why was now the right time because I think I'm I've learned a lot about myself I'm older I'm wiser and I'm don't want the heaviness of it anymore you know And I actually ultimately wrote it hoping that my mum, it frees my mum.

[233] You know, it's part me, but hoping that this finally frees my mum and she can move forward from it all.

[234] That I'm okay.

[235] You know, Ronnie's done okay for himself.

[236] You don't have to protect us anymore.

[237] Like, let us look after you.

[238] You're an amazing woman.

[239] When you write this book and your, you know, your mum knows that you're going to be sharing this with the world, What are those conversations like to, I guess at some point you might have had to read this book to her or tell her about the certain parts?

[240] She read it.

[241] Oh, she read it, yeah.

[242] She, yeah, being just a biased mum, but she loved it.

[243] But she found it super interesting because once again, I've gone through a lot of stuff that I've not spoken to her about, that she didn't know about me. Because once again, I've always been trying to protect her.

[244] So when I've gone through stuff, My first thing is, I can't tell my mum because I don't want her to panic about me. You know, she's already been through enough so I can look after myself.

[245] So her reading stuff, she's actually learned a lot about me, my emotions, how I deal with things that have come up.

[246] And then, like I said, that when she was going for all of that stuff with my dad, she didn't know what I was in the room doing, that I didn't sleep once because I'm listening just to make sure that I can hear her move in the morning.

[247] heaviness you used the word heaviness you didn't want the heaviness anymore yeah what is what is that what was the heaviness carrying all of this not speaking about what went on hiding it every time I'm asked about my mom or my dad in interviews because I think if you look back at everything that I've done soon as this topic is brought up about my mum I get emotional because straight away way someone doesn't know talking about my mum and me saying oh she's amazing straight away i'm picturing everything that went on that why i think she's amazing but i can't tell you that you just hear me get emotional and then i'll change the subject but like i said i suppose through learning how to communicate better and understand my emotions like i just want to be free like i want to be like i want to move forward in my life not having any of it anymore Like I'm at a stage in this point in my life where I'm ready to enjoy this stage this next season you know You used a word earlier on patterns What was the symptoms of that heaviness How did you start to see it manifesting in your behaviour Shutting off from life Shutting off from dealing with emotions pushing them down Not letting anyone in to help me When I need help not talking to anyone just I'm always okay just carry on what's next what happens next yep I can do that I can do that doing everything for everyone else around me but actually I just need someone to do something for me being like okay you're offering help I'm going to say okay instead of saying no to everything because I can deal with everything which ultimately that's where people talk about me and the trolling and you know the trolls pushed me into therapy no they didn't you know it was just that stage on top of every single other thing that i finally was like i need to talk to someone this is all too heavy for me to deal with like i'm in a dark place and i can either carry on in that dark place or actually i can do something about it this is post your footballing career yeah went into broadcasting it was a lot a lot of events had happened in my life that i didn't even know until i wrote down in a book, like a timeline, and I'm like, shit.

[248] I wonder why I bloody ended up in therapy, because I hadn't dealt with any of it.

[249] I just kept going.

[250] No, that's been a mentality and a trait.

[251] That's the pattern.

[252] I'm okay.

[253] Alex is always okay.

[254] One of the things we didn't talk much about yet is, which I think would be a surprise to a lot of people, is that you couldn't speak for many years growing up because of a speech impediment.

[255] Yeah.

[256] It's mad that's it.

[257] It's talking to you.

[258] chatting away.

[259] And then working in broadcasting.

[260] But when, you know, speech impediment is something, you know, you've gotten over the speech impediment and you went to like speech therapy from what I understand for a while.

[261] The thing that's probably, you know, I assume would stay with you for life is how that makes you feel about yourself.

[262] You know what I mean?

[263] Because it's, you know, you've overcome it.

[264] But the thoughts of struggle or maybe like not fitting in socially or being a bit insecure about things can can linger long after the solution's been found when you look back in your adult years has did that impact your life how other people viewed me i didn't feel like my voice was important or i wouldn't be able to get what across what was going on in my head it's mad you say i'm over i'm not like it's just i can hide it a lot better or i know that okay i have to reword things or I memorize scripts, for instance, or I'm practicing them.

[265] So when I get on camera, I know that word that's coming up.

[266] I can't say, I've practiced and practice it.

[267] But then I go to say, and it still doesn't work because I just can't articulate where the words come from.

[268] Even earlier today, before I was having a juice.

[269] And I asked if there was, I can't even say the word cinnamon or something, whatever, the spices.

[270] And there's certain things I just can't say.

[271] But it's almost I found a habit of just laughing at myself before everyone else laughs at me or then just not finding my voice not speaking out because I'm scared that it won't come out the way that's in my head I know like my brain works so fast like I'm always thinking 10 steps ahead of everybody else but I can't get it out how bad was it for people that might not understand what it's like to have a speech impediment when you're younger it's half because you go back to the environment that I grew up in it was actually then easier for it not to because you're not spoke but don't speak until you're spoken to so it's easy not to speak so which actually then full circle then my mum didn't detect it till later on because then I just wasn't speaking because we was in that environment where I wasn't really play for speaking out anyway um so it's not until then and then having to recorrect it but then I'm in an environment with someone who I'm sitting with and I can feel like the love or they're caring for me so then I think it's just a game, right, that I can feel something from you that you're invested in me, which is totally different to that what I'm feeling of my dad.

[272] So then you go back to those patterns.

[273] I feel like that's the pattern that I then craved with everyone.

[274] I then just want my first coach to see something in me. I'll do everything for you.

[275] Just believe in me like I want to feel that from you.

[276] Relationships, the same thing.

[277] It's like I'm always seeking that from what I wanted from my dad, I suppose, in my childhood.

[278] Difficult to have relationships when the first model of love you've ever, you witnessed, was deeply toxic.

[279] Yeah, that, the speech impediment.

[280] So not knowing how to communicate or speak properly and scared of what I'm trying to say doesn't come out, right?

[281] So from the speech impediment, it's just easier not to speak a lot in myself.

[282] circumstances, that's how the speech independent for me works, which go is crazy because like you said, do that for a living now.

[283] Yeah.

[284] Yeah.

[285] How does that work out?

[286] Because the thing is like on TV, I suppose I don't think about the millions of people watching me or that for me. It's just always I'm so interested in the person sitting opposite me because I'm learning.

[287] You know, the area of East London that I grew up in.

[288] I didn't think I'd be surrounded by people.

[289] people that view the world or have seen something in a certain way.

[290] And I'm just, sometimes I'm not speaking.

[291] Like, hey, you ask a question and you're wanting me to speak.

[292] So the same thing, I can ask you something.

[293] And you're telling me this amazing story.

[294] And I'm just sitting there, even though I'm presenting, I'm just amazed.

[295] Because I'm just like, wow, I'm learning something here.

[296] So ultimately, yes, I do it for a living, but no, I'm just sitting there learning and only speaking sometimes, really, even though it's on TV.

[297] But like you said, in relationships, yeah.

[298] I know that pattern of not speaking or when something's tough, I would run away from it.

[299] Like if you just push it down, push the emotions down.

[300] The next day everything will be fine.

[301] I'll carry on like nothing ever happened, which from my partner has always been the super hardest thing because they want to talk about it and get it out and all the feelings.

[302] But then I was always scared how those feelings or if you got to that angry state, what would happen?

[303] because I grew up seeing that in my dad so then I just want everything to be great like fine everything's fine tomorrow everything will be great but that's the thing in relationships you've got to battle it out to resolve a problem and if you don't it ends up being deposited in the relationship as resentment or contempt and it just stays there as an issue unaddressed and then it will pop up some other day yeah I think that's everything that happened to me up until I went to therapy is that it finally all needed to come out everything to deal with the emotions the childhood the speech impediment hiding it all i've come to learn i remember saying to one of my friends last week i said i think i think the single most important thing in any relationship um if it is to last especially romantic relationships is conflict resolution because you know i see i've said this before but i see relationships as like imagine two dots on a piece of paper and then the relationship begins and they become these lines moving as the relationship you know carries its course and then there'll be things that start to make the lines deviate from each other and go a bit wide but conflict resolution keeps the two people close you know if you know your partner you don't like the way he eats that thing yeah you can talk about it just and that's a trivial thing but you can resolve things and keep yourselves close when things go unresolved it seems like these two parallel lines start to deviate and you move further apart and then you're not having sex but you don't know how to talk about it so they just continues to deviate for so conflict resolution seems to be the thing that is keeps contentment out of a relationship which dr professor john gotman says is the number one killer of relationships but it also keeps us close if you're if you're not a master in conflict resolution it must be quite you know because you you want to avoid conflict entirely and that all you don't know how to communicate in a way that's going to help you to resolve the conflict it must be difficult i'll say difficult but then i would just always find a way of which then obviously is not right, which I've now figured out about myself, I would change things.

[304] I would stop doing things to try and make my partner happy.

[305] So I'm then changing myself.

[306] I'm not being my true authentic self because, yes, I'm avoiding the conflict and everything, but in doing so, I've stopped doing what I want to do or what I like just to then always keep everything nice and happy.

[307] And then you'll resent.

[308] That's where the contempt shows up because you think, fuck, I'm not doing this for me and I'm not doing this and you back here but then i wouldn't even speak about that yeah so i'll just sit there silence like why am i mad why what's going on in my head like why am i feeling this what's going on yeah because i've changed and i'm doing everything just to try and keep being happy and you've solved that i don't think if you'd ever solve anything you i'm learning you know it's interesting what did i hear the other day about you know we spend more time as people studying other people what you wear, what you study, how you act, how you behave, then actually spending time studying ourselves.

[309] And so I would say over the last two and a half years or since going to therapy, I'm studying myself more.

[310] So those patterns, those learning how to communicate better or what I do, which will then help me in a relationship moving forward, hopefully.

[311] When you look back at your football career, yeah big smile on your face um a really really amazing career um you're very much considered a legend in the game why do you think you were successful at football when you look back what was it about you and your character that separated you from those you know thousands hundreds of thousands of other people you were competing with to play for england or to play for arsenal i think goes back to the cage first of all for me football was just a always and it was a escape and a happy place.

[312] And I was scared to always lose that.

[313] So I yeah, even though like I went on what 140 caps for England and then there'd be people like, yeah, you're the first name on a team sheet.

[314] You're a favourite.

[315] I played every game for England kind of with that fear that could be taken away.

[316] This could be my last game.

[317] Like what if I don't get picked next week?

[318] What am I going to do?

[319] Like it's all I've ever known in my life.

[320] I know I wasn't the most talented like I wasn't there was people that was supposed to be at the top and make it they were the next best thing in women's football no one ever spoke about me like that in terms of growing up in the arsenal team I was out I was out that grew up in east london you know I loved arsenal that's how everyone viewed me that I just loved the club you know because for me it was a home but no one ever spoke that I was going to make it but I suppose that's where I just wanted people to believe in me you know know.

[321] So it was like, I will do everything to prove to you.

[322] You know, I've got something.

[323] Just look at me. I've got something.

[324] I love this place.

[325] So I think it was driven by that, really.

[326] And a feeling of not wanting to let people down, even though they didn't believe in me. How did that manifest in terms of your training and your performance and your preparation and your, there I guess, your obsession?

[327] Trying to be the best that I can be every day.

[328] In every training session.

[329] In every training session, like I've been given an opportunity.

[330] How dare I turn up to training and not leave giving it my all?

[331] Or come into training and be like, I don't fancy it today.

[332] Like, I'm so lucky.

[333] Like, I've come from a council estate on a concrete football pitch and now I get to walking at Highbury or be at the Arsenal Men's training ground.

[334] You know?

[335] It's like, who am I?

[336] I said, I'll be like, no, I don't fancy it today.

[337] Like, I just loved what it was giving me in my life.

[338] life.

[339] It's funny.

[340] We often think of, we ask motivated people, we say, how do you stay motivated?

[341] But when you look under the hood, it tends to be less of a choice than we think in the sense of it's not like I'm waking up and going, I'm going to be motivated, looking in the mirror and going, come on, we've got this.

[342] It's more sometimes, as you described it, like an escape from something else.

[343] Yeah.

[344] And we don't think of motivation as escapism all the time or insecurity, but it so often is.

[345] Yeah.

[346] I just knew what football was giving me in my life, something that.

[347] you know, I had dreams, but never dream that I'd be able to travel the world.

[348] Or, you know, I remember in the youth age groups getting on a minibus to go into Nottingham.

[349] You know, like, where is this place?

[350] I didn't even know this place existed in the UK, you know, and here I am on a minibus, eating a sandwich for a pack lunch, you know, I've been out the house all day.

[351] It's like, great.

[352] I didn't want to let go of that.

[353] Playing for England.

[354] I got to go on an airplane.

[355] I got to go to China.

[356] What?

[357] Oh my gosh.

[358] I didn't even know how many hours on a plane that was.

[359] You know, all those things were just feeding.

[360] more, I knew it was more than football, but football was allowing me that platform to see things and learn things about the world that I know was making me even more hungry to keep it.

[361] And to keep that, I needed to keep doing well at football.

[362] And you end up retiring at, what, 33, 34, you quit the international team at 33, quit Arsenal at 34.

[363] If football was giving you all of all that you've described there, how did it feel to come to the end of your time with Arsenal and the England team because I was learning more I was learning more about the world and from other people and actually then I knew towards the end of my football career it was giving me those feelings that I didn't want the heaviness and actually a feeling this is not enough for me anymore not a feeling of being trapped trapped is the wrong word but there it was it was heavy towards the end of my career.

[364] I was taking on a lot of emotions responsibility.

[365] I was captain, but in terms of, I don't know, I've always been this person where people can offload all their emotions on me. So I'd do that.

[366] I'd take that home.

[367] I try and solve a lot of problems on and off the pitch.

[368] And I just, I wasn't happy anymore in my last couple of seasons.

[369] Well, I didn't know.

[370] I remember doing a documentary about mental health.

[371] And the doctor, Tanya Byron, is her name.

[372] She described it to me so well.

[373] I didn't know.

[374] I was like a functional depressive this whole time.

[375] And that started in those later years of my footballing career.

[376] But I didn't know.

[377] I didn't know how to describe it or what I was feeling.

[378] You know, I was just turning up.

[379] I wasn't happy.

[380] It was heavy.

[381] Taking on everyone's emotions, management, players, trying to fix everything.

[382] And then I'd be home in the evening and be like, whoa, I don't want to talk to anyone.

[383] like I physically couldn't talk to anyone which are those patterns then I'd swish off from the world if you try and phone me call me, won't pick up mum yeah I'm okay don't want to have a conversation because everything was just then heavy no one in football knows that because I could go to football I'd put on a face like I'm Alex like yeah everything's great leader captain great but then I knew I couldn't do it anymore I did a TV show Bear Grills and that was the first time I knew I was ready to retire from football.

[384] I was surrounded by different people, different conversation about life other than being in a football bubble where everything you're consumed by, you think everything's just sport going on in the world.

[385] But I know I've always needed more.

[386] I know that's what's always been the spark in me about life.

[387] And it's the first time I started having conversations about the world, about other people's lives.

[388] I'd sit under the stars.

[389] It sounds like some Hollywood movie, But every night for survival, we had like a stint that we had to keep the fire alight on bare grills.

[390] And I remember just sitting there keeping the firelight, looking up at the stars and we're like, I'm ready for my next chapter.

[391] Like, I know there's another chapter.

[392] And it was just being brave enough to then take it.

[393] And how did you know that that would be in media?

[394] What did you not know?

[395] I didn't know, no. I think I was I was always frustrated from being away with England or even in Boston that I'd see a teammate full of personality, life and soul, just this bubblyness about him, get asked a question or being interviewed straight after a game and go in themselves.

[396] And I'll be confused.

[397] I'd be like, what are you doing?

[398] That's not you.

[399] Like I didn't understand.

[400] So I remember just randomly asking one of the camera guys like, oh, look.

[401] me interview after let me just ask some questions and then straight away doing that and then seeing a teammate relax and then everyone saying to me Alex you know you're natural and I'm like what's a natural I'm just asking some questions like I don't get it um so you don't same thing when people be like ah you sit in front of a camera and talk same I don't think about the millions maybe that's why I'm not sat there in that frozen state in fear looking at cameras because for me the conversation is what feeds me I like seeing people relax and be fun um So I just started doing more of it.

[402] And then I was like, right, scared about the next chapter after football.

[403] I was like, what am I going to do?

[404] People are trying to push me into management.

[405] And I was like, it's not me. I don't have a passion to be a manager.

[406] Not at this stage.

[407] I've not seen myself in that role.

[408] And I was like, no, I need to do something that I love that I get a passion and the energy from.

[409] And so that's why I did a media degree.

[410] I was like, right, if I'm going to do this, I know that I'm going to be judged.

[411] You know, and I don't like the feeling of anything just being given to you.

[412] you.

[413] So I'm like, no, I'm going to work for it.

[414] Just like I had to do my football career.

[415] I'll work for it.

[416] I'll do a media degree.

[417] So went and did that whilst I was still playing for Arsenal.

[418] And yeah, decided that in 2018, I was ready.

[419] I felt ready.

[420] I had a two -year contract on the table from Arsenal to sign.

[421] That's the comfort zone, the comfort blanket that I could have easily taken that.

[422] I'm still trying to pay my mortgage.

[423] I suppose most of my life, is that the fear of not having money to pay my bills and the debt man knocking on the door like I grew up seeing him come around every Thursday you know that fear but I was like no I can't sign that contract I don't know how unhappy I would be did you have an alternative at that point did you have a contract from no no nothing there so what what is that gap that you know I think about like monkey swinging through a through a jungle you've got to let go of the last branch and just have faith that you're going to grab the next one.

[424] Yeah.

[425] What was that period like in your life where you don't sign the contract and then you're looking for your next thing?

[426] Because I suppose I've always had the fear or a lot of people, what if it doesn't work out?

[427] Well, actually, I suppose I've always been the opposite.

[428] What if it does work out?

[429] I don't want to be held back in fear of, no, just in case.

[430] So it was more like, I knew the headspace that I was in, I couldn't sign that two -year contract.

[431] It'd be unfair.

[432] It'd be unfair to myself.

[433] It'd be unfair to my teammates because I'd just be turning up to collect, you know, my monthly salary at the end, which isn't a lot.

[434] Nothing like men or whatever, but it was enough to be secure and pay my mortgage monthly.

[435] But I know I couldn't do it.

[436] It was unfair.

[437] When did your first broadcasting job emerge then after that?

[438] It's weird because I was doing random stuff for BBC, like appearing on or like women's football show or something.

[439] And it's when I announced my retirement, that's when it just went, okay.

[440] It's like I was free and then people like, well, she's free to do more.

[441] She's got more hours in her day.

[442] Like she can actually start doing some work.

[443] And then from BBC, yeah, they started offering me more.

[444] I was appearing on some of their flagship shows, football focus or kind of those ones.

[445] And then, yeah, I suppose 2018 for me was that year when, because then I went off to the World Cup, 2018, the first female pundit for the BBC.

[446] And I suppose from there, then it continued.

[447] You talk about coming home one day through that period, and this is the part where you start talking about this functional or functioning depression.

[448] And you talk about looking at yourself in the mirror and then walking past it, taking a couple of steps back and looking at yourself in the mirror.

[449] Tell me about that day, that evening, what happened, and you end up, like, collapsing and, you know, having a bit of a moment.

[450] Yeah.

[451] Do I remember that like yesterday?

[452] I keep going back to the word heavy I think because that's straight away I feel it I didn't know well I'd know I did that I was carrying a lot I'd carried a lot through my football career which I didn't really know I was just doing it all trying to solve everything straight away I took that into my broadcasting career and like all these great things that yes I'm the first this I'm the first that I never set out to be that I was just following something that I love that I had a passion for and so all the stuff and I suppose the pressure that came with that.

[453] I didn't know, I wasn't putting it on myself but the expectation for me the expectation I was putting on myself was not to let anyone down like I've been given a chance like I can't let my BBC boss down like I've got this person that's finally believing in me has given me an opportunity to go to a men's world cup like this is big like so I was working so much doing so much not to let anyone down.

[454] And then ultimately on top of that, as you're becoming the first, as I'm the first female, all the negative stuff that come with that, all the trolling, all the online abuse, all of that.

[455] Like, you just got to a stage where I just, I couldn't take it anymore.

[456] Like, I'd been numbing everything, just carrying on.

[457] I can't show I'm weak.

[458] If I show I'm not strong, If I show my weakness, then the only thing I can't handle it.

[459] Oh, no issues.

[460] Look, a female can't handle it.

[461] It's too much for her.

[462] So all of this, I'd just been bottling and just carrying on, putting on this face.

[463] Like, everything's okay.

[464] And then that night was when it all got too much.

[465] I didn't want to come home.

[466] I was drinking to switch off, to sleep, to numb it all, to forget about it.

[467] and I just got to a stage where I'd had a dad filled with drink an uncle passed away was an alcoholic it's like drink problem and alcohol has been huge in my life and here I was repeating those same patterns drinking every night to switch off from the world after work so you'd be presenting on TV and then you'd come home and yeah to switch off a middle switch off from just life switch off from not talking to someone don't want to speak because then I'd have to speak about emotions and the heaviness continues right if I don't speak about it it's great it's going to go away but actually it doesn't just gets bigger and bigger and I think it was go back to how you said about Christmas and New Year it was that I was on my own because it was my choice, wanted to escape everything, the feelings, and then just being so sad, so sad.

[468] And I was like, I can't continue like this.

[469] So I was that choice in that moment, the next day to Google therapy.

[470] What happened that night?

[471] Just could stop crying.

[472] Could not stop crying, drinking.

[473] Then the drinking wasn't switching off what was going on in my head just numb.

[474] Just I was literally on my bed, curled up, just uncontrollably crying.

[475] And I don't know why.

[476] I don't know why I was crying the way I was.

[477] And why should I be crying?

[478] Because from the outside, I'm okay.

[479] I've had an amazing football career.

[480] I'm now working on TV.

[481] I can still pay my bills.

[482] Like, why should I be sad from the outside world?

[483] Who am I to be sad?

[484] I've got everything going for me right couldn't understand it you understand it now i understand yeah that for so all my life i'd locked up all this feelings that i didn't know like how you said they eventually find its way out but we've had all these i've had all this trauma everyone has trauma we have a big small everyone goes through trauma and i suppose i'd put up all all this protective walls around me. And then now they were just flooded out.

[485] Like, I needed help.

[486] How did the trolling online exacerbate, make all of this stuff worse?

[487] And, like, be honest, you know, we all pretend that it doesn't affect us.

[488] Oh, gosh.

[489] Yeah.

[490] No, that's so easy when people say, I don't read it.

[491] Forget about it.

[492] Like, but when constantly every day.

[493] And yes, my job to sit in front of a camera.

[494] but the abuse of, you know, your skin colour, what you're saying, just everything, the pure hatred.

[495] And I'm like, what have I done?

[496] That was some of the, like, what have I done?

[497] Like, should I just stop?

[498] Because ultimately, I was just talking about something that I love.

[499] You know, I was just someone that worked super hard to then try and go and get a degree to get.

[500] into this world to get another job, you know, to be able to pay my bills and look after myself.

[501] And here I am getting nothing but pure hate and abuse every single day.

[502] And I got to state, I'm like, can't do this anymore.

[503] But why?

[504] Like, who, why should I let them win?

[505] You know, so I'm fighting this battle constantly every day with myself.

[506] Did that make it harder to like really love showing up at work every day?

[507] No, do you know why?

[508] Because like the football cage, The actual work, being on screen, was an escape.

[509] It gave me like an hour and a half where I'm doing Super Sunday.

[510] That was an escape.

[511] I was actually, you forget about everything.

[512] It's straight away when I'm going home, once again, then I'm on my own.

[513] That's when it all spirals out of control.

[514] Like, I can't take it.

[515] Functional, depressive, like at work, I'm totally fine.

[516] Put on the walls, like I'm doing the work, enjoying it, loving it.

[517] And then straight away, then I can't take it.

[518] Hence why I most probably I threw myself into more work.

[519] I think of myself time off.

[520] Work, work, work, because I'm loved doing it.

[521] Keep it coming.

[522] Keep it coming.

[523] It's a distraction, isn't it?

[524] It's a distraction from just sitting with oneself and confronting.

[525] Yeah.

[526] I see this so much and so many people I know.

[527] This, I'll just make myself so busy that I won't have to actually deal with stuff.

[528] Yeah.

[529] It's almost like, it's almost like, I sat here with Maisie Williams and she'd been through a lot when she was younger and her with her father, Maisie Williams from Game of Thrones, the actor.

[530] And she talked about how acting was her escape.

[531] And the interesting thing is when we, in work and in, I guess, in acting, we kind of get to disassociate from our true self, our identity.

[532] Like we become this character.

[533] Like, even me now, this is obviously not, you know, I'm being as authentic as I can, but I'm also trying to be a fucking host of a podcast here, right?

[534] So, like, when I go upstairs and I'm on my own, that's my truest self, obviously, when the camera's on or whatever.

[535] Um, but it is.

[536] It's like this is, our work is our escapism.

[537] It's we get to, we're playing, especially when you're presenting, you are, you know, you're high pitch and you're like, ah, what, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, so, um, I've just, it's funny.

[538] I've seen it a lot in some of my really close friends that work is their way of distracting themselves from their life.

[539] Yeah.

[540] Just getting past today.

[541] But you know what?

[542] Maybe for me, I suppose, maybe I didn't learn that part because actually what you see on screen is actually me. Like, I didn't learn how to either be this person.

[543] present or be a different form of myself.

[544] So I've always given just, it's just me. But who's the person at home?

[545] Is the person that had dealt with all this trauma and done stuff, but had like I hadn't.

[546] That's what I'm saying.

[547] It's like, so on TV there's this expectation for you to be a certain way, right?

[548] Which is you've got to be at least, you can't be sat there talking like this.

[549] Yeah, yeah.

[550] You've got to be a little bit up and you've got to be more, a little bit more interested than maybe you might be feeling.

[551] But, but when you go home on that, that night in particular, that's probably actually you.

[552] Because there's no camera, there's no one watching.

[553] That's when there's no distraction.

[554] And I think that sometimes.

[555] We are who we are when we're least distracted.

[556] Yeah.

[557] When there's no phone, there's no nothing.

[558] Go put us in a jungle and sit there for an hour.

[559] You'll find out who you are.

[560] Yeah.

[561] So like, when you were alone and when you are alone, and when there is no distraction, who are you now?

[562] Can I ask, are you in a really?

[563] relationship because this is quite no you're not in a relationship okay i'm dating okay you're dating okay you're dating i don't want to put a label on it i'm like here we go here we go here's the trauma you don't want to let you don't want to commit yeah that's a toxic trait so you're dating you're not in a relationship but you're dating yeah okay so i'm just trying to figure out if you're going home alone um yes i say yes i am okay yeah what do you like now when you when you're in that space alone And what's the journey been like of like being alone undistracted?

[564] I love it.

[565] No?

[566] Have you always loved it?

[567] I know what those moments have given me in my life.

[568] But maybe because I was clouded by a lot of stuff going on, I was scared to be in those moments where actually I think about the best moments that I feel now are my most quiet moments.

[569] So I have this special place in Portugal and I always escape to it.

[570] Because why I love nothing more than getting up in a morning and going on a hike.

[571] in nature and I feel I come alive like the thoughts that enter my brain about life or what I want to do or where I want to go like it fills me with so much energy so I love those moments I love going away a lot on my own and people can't get their head around it are you going on vacation on your own I'm like yeah because I need it I know what it gives me so like I would say those moments I love and need it to recharge and refocus sometimes.

[572] Were you ever the person that didn't want the party to end or didn't want work to end?

[573] Yeah.

[574] You were that person I had a suspicion you might have been.

[575] I suppose it's my lever trait, those scales that I love this end, I love connection, I love people, the energy that it gives me and then I also love the other side of it.

[576] I need to be alone sometimes like not speak, not have the conversation, just literally be in my own thoughts.

[577] I say this because the friends that I've got closest to me that struggled the most with unaddressed issues were always the ones that never, so say we're on a night out, a couple of drinks, one or two, I'm like, I'm done.

[578] They would always want to continue.

[579] And it was this interesting observation that you'd, and people listening will know this friend.

[580] They do not want people to go home.

[581] They do not want the, you know, they want to have one more drink.

[582] And then they have, I think someone's referred to me before as like the fear either upon sobering up or having to go home alone at the end of the night.

[583] And I sat here with a guy that kind of explained that to me. But I was just curious if that was ever you at all.

[584] It's not that I want to.

[585] I love nothing more than seeing people have a good time.

[586] That in those moments, I often forget that I need to have a good time.

[587] Okay.

[588] Like I'm trying to make everyone have a good time.

[589] Do you need a drink?

[590] I'm going to go get you a drink.

[591] let's go out for food let's do this i'm planning your biggest thing and i've never planned anything to celebrate my own stuff because that's what i love seeing in other people so it's not a fear of like i want you to keep staying out or keep giving you a drink it's just i'm loving seeing you have a great time and that makes me so happy the trolling stuff yeah i there's no there's nothing more toxic than football twitter it's just the cess it's like a cesspool of like negativity and anonymity and everyone's display picture as some footballer from their favourite club and they just say whatever.

[592] People will just say whatever.

[593] I just don't post on Twitter anymore.

[594] Yeah, I'm kind of the same.

[595] What happens on my Twitter, if you look at it, it's just the podcast clip goes out and that's it.

[596] Yeah.

[597] Because you can't back at me. I don't want to be baited into some shit.

[598] But in your job, it's almost part of the job to be on Twitter and to have a voice and to be common, like, you know, I see it with the pundits like Gary and Jake Humphreys and all they always it's part of the job to kind of I would say it's part of the job for them but I would say to the extent that what I've gone through with it is maybe they haven't experienced that level and I think I remember Jake Humphrey saying as well like he hasn't or you couldn't believe the stuff that was coming my way and you wouldn't until you're going through it or actually see it like and I suppose I hid it for so long Like I tried to hide it for so long Because I was scared of being seen as being weak Not strong enough to deal with it all Did you have anxiety?

[599] Yes, of The fear of what might happen to me To that extent Like because the abuse then would turn into death threats Also to the fact is that I am going home alone You know, what happens there Like we've seen in the past of, you know, some presenters, what's happened, stalking, all of that stuff.

[600] So all of that anxiety goes from my head.

[601] Like I want to just be safe.

[602] Like I'm just going to work.

[603] Did you have stalkers?

[604] I wouldn't say stalkers, no. But in terms of the death threats and everything, that's when.

[605] And then I suppose that's when I don't tell my mum, don't tell anyone.

[606] So actually then I'm dealing with all of this on my own.

[607] That day, so the day after the, you're crying.

[608] on your bed you don't know why you're crying it's uncontrollable and you said the next morning you googled therapy therapy yeah yeah do you know what I laugh because people when people had spoken to therapy I've had conversations about it in the past like straight away I would screw up my face and be like well no one can tell me about myself I know myself like what they're going to do they don't know about my life like that would be the attitude for me for therapy until that day where I googled it one I didn't even know what to look for all this long list came up of all these different therapies.

[609] I'm like, what do I need?

[610] I just need to talk to somebody.

[611] And then, yeah, then ended up, Googling someplace that was close to where I live, went there and it was everything that I thought therapy would be like that feeling of someone sitting there and just saying yes and no to me. And I was like, no, this is not going to work for me. Like, I'm that person.

[612] I need someone to be brutally honest with me. Like, just saying yes or no, it's not going to, it's not what I need to hear.

[613] were you scared when you um you went for that first therapy session like you've googled a place close to you don't you haven't had a recommendation walking up to some knocking on some dog just walking up to a strange and be like are you ready yeah yeah yeah but it's so uncomfortable so uncomfortable and then went home the same thing it's like this not going to work am i going to stay in this dark place get out some wine let's drink let's numb it all that that experience didn't happen but then actually then something in my brain was like no And then something clicked that I'd heard about this place, supporting chance.

[614] Actually, I need to reach out to them, see if these people can help me. And then straight away within a day, someone had come back to me saying, we've found this guy, go and see him.

[615] And in the moment, Stephen, I walked into the room with him, I knew he was the guy.

[616] He was the person.

[617] How did you know?

[618] How he spoke to me. It was no bullshit.

[619] his character and you know i almost felt strange is that i've had this relationship strange relationship with men my whole life but then i actually tend to gravitate back to that kind of form like and here it was this big man telling me and making me see myself in a way pushing me to see myself in a way that maybe i've been scared to do before and not allowing me to just be like Yeah, no, I don't want to talk about that.

[620] No, yeah, that's okay.

[621] And just seeing me and knowing it's not okay.

[622] This was, what, three years ago, almost?

[623] Yeah, two and a half three years ago.

[624] He made me start seeing that some of it isn't my responsibility.

[625] The guilt that I'm carrying my whole life, the heaviness, making me see it in all a different way, making me see myself and learn about myself in a different way, why I've done things the way that I have to understand the power, patterns to understand my patterns when I need help and that it's okay to ask for help it's not weak it's not a weakness even we talk about like the heavy stuff but even it's the nice stuff wanting someone to say no I'm going to pay for this instead of me like I always I'm the first to try and pay for everyone because I just want everyone to be happy you know like I've treated you to a meal like it's all good sometimes that awkward feeling don't like it actually no just being like okay yeah thank you i appreciate that you're going to buy me dinner tonight you know it's okay learning that why was that a struggle because you're just kind of just why not i just hate awkwardness or like now i found myself that i can pay my bills and i've you know earned some more that i can take care of people also so i'm trying to take care of you where actually i'm not earning that money when we're talking about men's football or women's football even in TV now, like I'm earning a salary.

[626] So actually, what am I doing?

[627] I'm trying to pay for everyone.

[628] Like, I'm not actually, I'm not made of money.

[629] But it's just that feeling that I can, like I can treat you like, it's good.

[630] I guess if you spend your life like trying to help everybody else and make everyone else happy, it's coming at the cost of something, coming at the cost of your own happiness often.

[631] And that is difficult.

[632] You're what, you're two and a half, two and a half years on now.

[633] When you, when you reflect back on, you know, the person you were at 18 years old or in your early years ago playing for Arsenal in England if you could go back and just have a chat with her and she would believe every word you said what would you say to her?

[634] That you're going to be alright at the same time I almost wouldn't change any of it because I feel like I've been through or so much that has taught me so much and I'm so grateful for the lessons so ultimately I'd tell her that she's going to be okay but you're going to go through some stuff but it's going to make you even stronger but in a different way why would she need to hear those words about you're going to be alright because those aren't the words that most people would say to the younger self why would young 18 year old Alex need to hear those words Because I suppose it was always just a feeling of fear and worry.

[635] So even though things might be going okay in your football career or, you know, you've finally earned some money to pay for something, there's always just you're living in a worry all the time.

[636] So it's able, instead of just rushing on to the next or thinking what next, be more present in that moment.

[637] you're going to be okay so just take it in I think there's a lot I've not taken in yeah how do you feel about your your career in terms of what you've achieved everyone looking at you must think Alex is an unbelievable success she's smashed everything she must be just over the moon I find it hard I suppose a lot of people do right to hear the good stuff like yeah like I've done right like from one career made it into this career but i suppose i'm scared to always just sit there because it can be taken away it can end so i'm always thinking no i need to be better my next show i need to study my lines i can't mess up i need to be better so there's always that of i'm letting someone down so i don't think i've ever sat and taken it all in what what have i done great like I've managed to play for England and now I sit on TV and have a conversation I suppose I don't take it in when people now come up to me in the street I understand more I would say I didn't understand before but now I'm starting to understand do you feel like you're a success it depends how did you define success what does success look like that's the great thing are you a success in your own eyes yes not because of my work or that stuff goes back to your question that you know what i've done okay from the kid on that council estate that only had the concrete football cage like you've managed to do something when a lot of people kids from those areas they have an expectation that you're not a amount, not supposed to amount too much.

[638] So in my eyes, I've been a success for those reasons.

[639] Are you happy?

[640] Yeah.

[641] Yeah.

[642] I'm still learning to be more happy, to be honest.

[643] I think I've always been kind of happy -go -lucky person.

[644] Like, I feed of positivity, want to hear the good things.

[645] You know, if you've got energy a sap around you, like it drains me. I'm that sort of person so I kind of navigate to the people that see life in a certain way and want to have certain conversations and I'm starting to yeah look at that and be more happy be how celebrate something not big milestones maybe just little things you know it doesn't always have to be the big things but taking those moments and yeah if if your happiness was this list of ingredients and you looked at it and thought well maybe there's one ingredient missing for me for the recipe to be perfectly balanced what would that ingredient be i would say it's finally accepting love i think i've always been scared but like i said like i've been on a journey not been in relationships for a while for that reason i knew that i had to do some a lot of work on myself like i've had people come into my life that want to show me love that want to give it but i've always had those walls up no well i think finally now i'm at a stage where i'm at a stage where I'm ready to let that in.

[646] And I think that's something that's been missing from my life.

[647] And what do you want from the next chapter of your life?

[648] What is the, you know, do you look forward in 10 years from now, we say, oh God, that was a successful chapter.

[649] What happened?

[650] To be, I would say, be more present in the moment.

[651] Really is.

[652] Like, it's weird because I don't ever look like five years or 10 years.

[653] People's in terms of like my next job or anything.

[654] People are like, well, what show do you want to be presenting in five years?

[655] I think I've always been, I'm quite spiritual, but I've never, like, I might have these small goals, but I'm also open to that, actually, I might go right a bit, and I might learn some lessons here to push me in that, or open to that you might have an idea of that's my presenting goal, or I need to be on that show.

[656] But actually, because I'm on this path, it might take me a totally different way, and I'm okay with that.

[657] Same like the football decision.

[658] you know do I sign a two -year contract in my arsenal career or actually do I listen to how I'm feeling and it's taking me on a totally different path I wonder if there's a bit like the survival mindset in there where like it's just a case I hear this a lot like I'm just trying to make sure I don't lose this shit to do my best today so thinking about the future seems like a waste of energy because I want to make sure that you know because because there's sometimes a fear in us of going back And I think people that have come from harder times understand this a little bit more.

[659] I think maybe if you'd come from a privileged place, you wouldn't have, you wouldn't have ever had a fear of like, what happens if I lose this contract?

[660] Yeah.

[661] Because you can just, you know, fall back on the safety net of your like parents' mansion or whatever.

[662] But there's more of like a fight in the moment I see, which ends up, I think, as you've described it, like deferring our happiness because we're just trying to get through today.

[663] We're not enjoying it.

[664] We're just trying to fucking hold on here.

[665] You know?

[666] Yeah.

[667] Oh, I'm scared of that, yeah, like a fear of, like, losing that contract, but I also have a fear of standing still.

[668] Hmm.

[669] Like, just being okay, like being not just average.

[670] Like, I always want to be better than I was yesterday.

[671] But you must have dreams, big, no?

[672] Yeah, like dreams of, for me, like, I own a house in the area that I am now, because I know I love that area.

[673] Yeah.

[674] So it isn't dreams of, like, when I went into the TV career, Like there's a select group of people that I'm like, God, if I like get into that category, like I know I've done all right because that's how I view them like top class.

[675] Same like if we're talking football terms when you're playing for England, you're the best right back.

[676] You know, like I want to be in a category where I see those presenters that you know they are top class.

[677] Like so I suppose I keep working towards trying to be seen at that level.

[678] Which I think for me is hard because I don't know.

[679] Honestly, if I'd be viewed like that.

[680] that.

[681] Why?

[682] Because I already have a perception around me that I've just been given a role, right?

[683] That I'm ticking a box.

[684] So I think that perception now for a lot of people, that's always going to stay with me, no matter how hard I work or have work to get to where I am, that's kind of a perception.

[685] Makes you upset, doesn't it?

[686] because I've worked so hard people can't they see just sometimes the end process of it or they don't see the actual the whole process what they're actually taking you to get to that which I'm fine with but the fact that like yeah you're not respected for the work that you're doing or been done that's hard for me when you say people think you're there because you're ticking a box what box do they think you're ticking female now black a quota do you why do you carry that yeah goes back to another thing that's heavy it's been heavy it continues to be every time a subject's brought up because maybe i've been that first to them break through it's like i am that spokesperson or you know we'll go to alex she needs to speak about this so it's just it's just always there always ways and it's like as if it's become my it's me it's my story and i'm like no there's a whole lot to me you know going on in my life i'm not just been trolled but that's how now people would either just see me or all the abuse or yeah it's just i didn't see you like that thanks didn't even write down trolling on here i didn't was was completely irrelevant to obviously who you are so it's interesting that you're carrying that in your mind but it didn't cross my mind today I didn't even think we're going to talk about it today that I don't consider it to be part of your story thank you not even saying that to make you happy like if I just didn't think it was it's not it's not anything to do with you is it it's actually someone else's problem in every sense of the word I suppose it's when you're getting phone calls every day about that or straight away that that's constantly every thing that you read online it's that yeah there's this interesting thing when you when you represent an unrepresented community that it ends up it ends up becoming like your personal brand so like as you've said oh we need to talk about black issues or women issues in football so microphone over to and it's that's on one hand the right thing to do because other people shouldn't really be speaking on this issues but in another way it's it's kind of the wrong thing to do because it pigeonholes you is it reduces your identity as you've said down to just like black woman when you are so much more everyone else is allowed to be so much more yeah but um people don't really think about that they think they're being kind or thoughtful or consider it do you know what I suppose like in terms of there's parts that I find it hard because like I said before I also understand my responsibility more with it where before it was just I was just finding a job I'm just sitting on a sofa having a conversation like oh this is great actually what I didn't understand me sitting on a BBC one show so far a flagship programme for BBC is actually doing for a lot of people I didn't understand that until maybe there was one time that I'm riding back through East London.

[687] It's actually during the pandemic I'd rode from like North London to East London to see my mum and riding home there was two black women on a park bench and they were shouting at me Stephen and I was like well what's going on it what's going on and I was like like family yeah Yeah, basically pure joy that they'd see me. Yeah.

[688] And they just told me, keep going.

[689] Nothing more.

[690] And I was like, wow.

[691] It touched me. Because of all the stuff you see online, those two people on that part bench, I understood what I'm doing.

[692] What's your relationship like these days with your father?

[693] No, it's speak to him.

[694] When's the last time you spoke to him?

[695] 2019 and it wasn't a conversation it was a text message the last time i'd actually spoken to him was my nan's funeral in 2017 i remember standing on the balcony and whop him it had some drink but him telling me that he knows he's not been the person that he should have been and he's carried a lot of regrets and he's going to change and i was already so distraught because my now was one of the closest people in my life.

[696] But I remember just feeling like, I don't care.

[697] If you do, then great.

[698] I'd spent my whole life sending him Christmas presents, birthday presents, ringing him just to check him because I had this guilt that he would be lonely or.

[699] And then from that moment, I was like, now I'm done.

[700] Like I didn't hear from him.

[701] So I'm not going to chase him.

[702] Like once again, it was just this, that.

[703] It's just all talk.

[704] Like, I'm over it.

[705] And then I was doing Strictly in 2019, and I got to Blackpool.

[706] Strictly was like this bubble of happiness that at a stage in my, I just needed it.

[707] And it gave me that, Strictly, did.

[708] And then I remember I got to Blackpool and I was on the train on the way up, sitting next to Michelle Passage, who's this character who I'd never thought I'd have someone in my life like her.

[709] And here I am, opposite end.

[710] She's from New York, but we just had this connection.

[711] She was my person on Strictly.

[712] and she saw my phone flash and she's like what the heck what's that she must have seen something in my face and it was a message from my dad asking for tickets to come to Blackpool hadn't heard from him the 10 weeks I was on the show and he asked for tickets not for him though for two of his friends where he lives and you know what I'd seen the Elton John film and I remember crying in the movie theatre because there was a part in that that I was like jeez that's how I feel there was a part um elton john it was just trying to connect with his dad the whole time and then there was one point where the dad reached out to him and was like come around for dinner or something and when he turned up it was literally just for him to sign autographs so there was no love or he didn't really want him to be it was just to sign autograph for the kids he had around the house and that's how I felt in that moment.

[713] Like it wasn't, you didn't care about me or ask how I was.

[714] All you want is strictly tickets for your mates.

[715] But I remember I had the courage to finally write back to him, that's wrong.

[716] And I think it must have touched him in a way because I'd never done that.

[717] Like if I was mad or felt angry about anything, would never tell my dad because I always still had that fear.

[718] And so he must have known.

[719] And then straightway, you text back, apologising that, oh no, it's just a his way to try and connect with me to ask for tickets and they were really for him.

[720] And I was just like, oh, this is just bullshit.

[721] And I've not spoken to him since.

[722] But I'm going to have to.

[723] And I want to speak to him.

[724] You're not finished talking.

[725] No. It's on one hand, like I've done this book to free my mum.

[726] On the other hand, I'm scared that it could ruin my dad's life.

[727] And I don't want that.

[728] So I need to plug up some courage.

[729] Because, yeah, I need to tell him that I've wrote about stuff that's not going to be comfortable for him.

[730] We sit here on the 9th of September.

[731] Yeah.

[732] What comes out in 10 days from now on the 19th of September.

[733] Are you thinking of speaking to him before the publication or after the publication?

[734] No, before.

[735] I think it would be very wrong.

[736] if it's just out there and I hadn't spoken to him.

[737] Like, I've not wrote the book.

[738] I didn't write it to destroy his life or make him seem like this person and I truly hope he's not that person anymore.

[739] Like, people change.

[740] So I don't want him to be judged on that in the past.

[741] Like, I want people to take him for who he is now.

[742] So I want him to understand that I've not wrote it from a place of being angry with him or the ultimate, it's not about him.

[743] It's about wanting my mum to break free of it all.

[744] Scary.

[745] I was just thinking a few things.

[746] I was thinking it's a difficult conversation.

[747] And I've got to be honest, there's a part of me that thinks, you don't know of them that.

[748] This is my, it's none of my business, but there's a part of me that thinks you just, you don't know him that.

[749] As you've said, it's not, it's your story.

[750] And it'll impact people, love of course and then um i think you have the right to speak on your own experiences regardless of how that might make someone else uh uh who's played that kind of role in your life feel i just don't know i just you know that's easy for me to say it's not my dad you know i you know so but that's that was what i was thinking i think yeah that's gone back and forth in my mind like i don't need to right he's not been there in my life I would say you sitting there, having this conversation with me, you know me better than my dad.

[751] Like, he doesn't know anything about me. Can't describe me as a person, doesn't really know what's gone on in my life, doesn't know.

[752] So, yeah, I don't own that.

[753] But it's, I don't know, something in me is telling me it's the right thing to do for him.

[754] Like, it's my dad, I love him.

[755] Did you ever understand the cycle that he's in that made him the way he is?

[756] no and I think that's where I always think that something like he must feel the guilt and the sadness you know and that's why I've always like there's a good person in there like something's gone on that's made him feel like this or I don't know if it's me just making up a story in my head I feel like I always saw that from a kid like everyone has good in them you know I'm still trying to pluck up the courage it's coming around soon.

[757] I've got to do it.

[758] Yeah.

[759] I will do it.

[760] I will do it.

[761] You finish this book by writing a letter to your mother.

[762] Yeah.

[763] Yeah.

[764] That was hard in the audio book.

[765] I'm not going to lie.

[766] Yeah.

[767] I spend that whole doubt to cry in.

[768] Why did you want to end the book in that way?

[769] Because I hope the book shows her that I am me because of her.

[770] that she's an incredible woman and everything that she's done has allowed me to be in the position that I am and for her to understand that she doesn't have to be the strong one anymore like I'll do everything to look after her and just to enjoy her life like she still has this life you don't need to be trapped by the past anymore she's still trapped by it that Yes, like me taking them out for dinner or a theatre show, like to try and give her that happiness.

[771] Like, I can only do so much.

[772] Like, I'm hoping that letter sets her free.

[773] That's what I. Stop looking at me. I don't want to cry anymore.

[774] Where am I going to look?

[775] No, it's beautiful what you write about her.

[776] And it's actually, it's actually difficult to read it because it's so beautiful.

[777] And it's so, it comes from such an authentic place.

[778] So I can't imagine what it's like having to say it in a booth.

[779] to a microphone when you're doing the audiobook, I can't imagine.

[780] Even reading the words were just so, you could feel that the words were so intentional.

[781] Every word you selected in that letter is so, so intentional.

[782] So it's moving for someone that, you know, has never met your mother.

[783] But thank you.

[784] What an amazing daughter she has raised.

[785] Thank you.

[786] It does actually make me smile.

[787] Going back to one of your questions about, I don't know, being proud or like even seeing you just have that book.

[788] like that's my book yeah yeah like I wrote my own book like I didn't even go to school like education it was a struggle yeah dyslexic the speech like they're all there all the problems in my life but I actually just sat down on my laptop laptop and wrote that book and like you just like you've got it there like I don't know it still doesn't feel real but I'm just like yeah I did that you did that I did that Alex, we do have a closing tradition on this podcast which is where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest and they don't know who they're writing it for Oh, mm -hmm You will also be asked to do the same which is leave a question for the next guest and again you won't know who that guest is but and I don't get to read it until until the very end of the podcast so oh, okay, it's very easy to read What is your deepest fear Oh, that is a good one.

[789] At the very core of you, what is your deepest fear?

[790] I think my deepest fear is my mum leaving this world.

[791] And not experiencing happiness is the fear.

[792] That all right.

[793] Do you need more for me?

[794] No, I was just thinking about it.

[795] It makes sense because you've explained it.

[796] You've explained it that you've seen this kind of numbness in your mum to the world.

[797] And it feels like you've been fighting to try and, you know, solve that.

[798] Yeah.

[799] And as you've said, this book is part of the solution in your eyes to liberate her from that.

[800] She's wanted to be happy.

[801] I want to smile more, taking moments and just not think something's going to happen, just for her to have some happiness.

[802] Do you think she has to go and walk some of the same steps that you've walked in terms of therapy and going back to do that?

[803] Yeah.

[804] Yeah.

[805] I don't know how hard that's going to be for her because you're going to bring up the rawness, the stuff that she's tried to push to the side but ultimately I know it can free her but she has to have a willingness hopefully I think there's a power in there isn't there I think this is what I'm at I hope when I keep saying about I hope the book sets her free because I know there's so many people that have gone through the same stuff as my mum and I think maybe if she understands that and sees that that they're free or they've come through things that maybe she can start to be on that journey so there's a there's a huge fear the answer to the question but ultimately I look forward and when I look forward I see there's a light And I feel that's where I smile because I'm just hoping and I pray that that's where she's getting.

[806] That's where she gets to.

[807] Alex, thank you.

[808] Thank you for having me. Thank you.

[809] It's been an absolute pleasure.

[810] You're a wonderful person and I know this is just the start of our relationship.

[811] So yeah, thank you.

[812] Thank you, Stephen.

[813] Oh, someone get me a tissue.