419 - The Butterfly King: A WWII Murder Mystery

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hello.

[2] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[3] That is Georgia Hardstark.

[4] That's Karen Kilgarif.

[5] And today we are so thrilled to announce exactly right's newest podcast, The Butterfly King.

[6] It's a World War II murder mystery takes place in Bulgaria.

[7] We pulled the audience.

[8] We said, what do you want to hear about?

[9] You said Bulgaria.

[10] We're on it.

[11] And today, this very special episode, we are being just, joined by the two people who made this podcast.

[12] They're BBC journalists with a combined 60 years experience between the two of them.

[13] Please welcome the host of the Butterfly King, Becky Milligan, and her producer and the co -star of the podcast, E .J. Kirby.

[14] Hi.

[15] Hi.

[16] Hi.

[17] Thanks so much for having us.

[18] Yes.

[19] Thank you so much.

[20] Just to clarify, we're not 60.

[21] No way near 60.

[22] No, no. Nearly.

[23] Not 32.

[24] Nearly.

[25] Nearly 60, but not quite.

[26] I was like, it's cool that you could just combine numbers now and sound more official.

[27] Like, can I do that?

[28] Yeah.

[29] Can we do that?

[30] We have over 16 years podcasting experience.

[31] Right.

[32] Oh, my God.

[33] Well, yeah.

[34] We're just a bit older than you.

[35] That's all it is.

[36] Although we look so good on it.

[37] That's right.

[38] Now, for us, it's 11 in the morning.

[39] But for you guys, it's nighttime, right?

[40] Yeah, yeah.

[41] And we have our cups of tea to keep awake.

[42] Because normally I'm in bed by this time.

[43] Well, me too, actually.

[44] It's 7 .30.

[45] I'd usually be in bed with a book.

[46] Yeah, that's it.

[47] Well, before we talk about the butterfiking, we want to hear about your incredible journalism careers.

[48] You guys met doing that, correct?

[49] Yeah, that's right.

[50] I mean, oh, God, it's a long time.

[51] I started off in papers and then moved to the BBC.

[52] I don't know about you, E .J. Did you go?

[53] straight to the BBC.

[54] One trick pony, just the BBC.

[55] So we took slightly different paths, but, you know, we knew of each other.

[56] So I was very much radio, BBC radio, and then a bit of TV with sort of documentary programmes and so on.

[57] And I mean, I just did a lot of foreign news, a lot of politics and investigative, really, I suppose, really sort of hunting out stories.

[58] I think both of us really had to come up with our own stories a lot.

[59] investigate them and then present them and then hope that you get a headline in the paper the next day in those days my job when I was in radio was to make sure every newspaper led on the story I was doing the next day, especially if it was politics.

[60] So I did quite a lot of politics and then foreign affairs went to in 1999, my God, so long ago, went to Afghanistan.

[61] So it was the time when the Taliban were taking over and went a bit undercover and that was a bit scary at times.

[62] What was the undercover work like?

[63] Well, we weren't allowed to film.

[64] So we had to have little hidden cameras.

[65] And I went with, we were filming it all ourselves.

[66] And I went with a producer and a friend who was in this program called News Night at the BBC.

[67] So we were doing two programs, about two 20 -minute films.

[68] And we had to go in and we'd set up these interviews.

[69] We had to go in secretly and this kind of over the Khyber Pass, I remember.

[70] And the key, the key, is not to be stopped by the Taliban at that time and they'd sort of drive past with their Kalashnikovs and you'd just have to sort of hide in the back of a van and then arrive in Kabul and yeah there were moments the worst moment actually we'd interviewed a lot of women it was very much about women and the situation for women there under the Taliban and it was it was really really bad at the time I mean it is how it is now really actually it's sort of so weird because it just feels exactly the same and we had, as we left, we had to sort of cover ourselves.

[71] And we were with an Afghan man who did radio.

[72] So everyone knew his voice, but they didn't know what he looked like in Afghanistan.

[73] So we went to the airport to try and leave after three or four weeks gathering materials secretly.

[74] And the Taliban asked to search us.

[75] And we had all the interviews taped underneath our clothes.

[76] We were really scared at that point because if they'd looked at the videos or they'd seen the tape of the women who'd talked to us, they could be in really big danger.

[77] And so the guy we were with suddenly turned around and just exclaimed who he was and everyone recognized his name.

[78] And then he just turned to us and said, run.

[79] So we ran to the sort of runway where there was a Oxfam plane.

[80] And we just ran and said, get us on.

[81] It was really crazy.

[82] Wait a second.

[83] Are you guys in the MI5?

[84] Is that also part of being with the BBC?

[85] We are both of us.

[86] We could possibly comment.

[87] No, we can't comment on that.

[88] Okay.

[89] I said we could tell me. We've got.

[90] We're actually filming this.

[91] We've got this on tape.

[92] But I did see some CIA people, I remember, because they were sort of hovering around.

[93] But anyway, first, they said, no, we can't take you on.

[94] We're too full.

[95] And then we just squeezed on.

[96] And we flew to Kugstan, actually then.

[97] So we did manage to get out.

[98] It was a bit hairy.

[99] You did some work, didn't you, in Afghanistan?

[100] No, I did loads in Afghanistan.

[101] I was a foreign correspondent, so for many years I lived outside Britain all over the place, and I was mainly doing death and disaster and misery, really.

[102] I did have a very nice nickname for many years as the angel of death because any earthquake, plane crash, bombing, whatever.

[103] EG was there?

[104] Yeah, locked up.

[105] But, yeah, I did lots of Afghanistan.

[106] I was embedded with French forces.

[107] in Afghanistan, got shot at by the Taliban.

[108] So I went later than you.

[109] I went just after the fall of the Taliban.

[110] I was in, whenever it was, 2001, I went.

[111] Yes, it's literally a couple of years later.

[112] Yeah.

[113] And, yes, I was embedded with French forces for a month.

[114] And, yes, very exciting things.

[115] You know, people taking helicopter rides with people gunning away out, you know.

[116] It's all very strange, all very strange times, but fun times.

[117] When you hear that that's an assignment you're about to get, like, is that kind of what you got into it for?

[118] Is that kind of what you love?

[119] Or are you stressed like anyone going, oh, no, my job is really hard?

[120] I mean, I didn't get into it for that at all.

[121] And I'm really, really scared all the time.

[122] In those, because I went also to Sierra Leone.

[123] And I went on my own on that one.

[124] It was just so frightening during the Civil War.

[125] So it's not something I looked to do, but I found stories.

[126] So it's a little bit different from E .J., because that was what her job was, whereas I found a story, and then I really regretted finding it.

[127] Because, you know, I just think, why did I do this?

[128] Why am I here?

[129] I remember someone saying, do you want to come down to the front line?

[130] I said, no, I'm under the bed.

[131] I'm in the hotel.

[132] I'm staying there.

[133] So I didn't enjoy it.

[134] So actually, after Sierra Leone and Afghanistan, I really turned to politics because I had kids then.

[135] And I just didn't really want to go away so much.

[136] It was just one of those things that I just felt really inside.

[137] But I think, I don't know what you feel about that.

[138] I'm happiest on the road.

[139] I'm always happening.

[140] So, yeah, I'm just, yeah, I was just one of those people who had a suitcase under the bed, a suitcase, you know, in the office.

[141] And, yeah, I mean, when I was a Europe correspondent, I was in a different country three times a week.

[142] So it was, you know, all the time for TV, infaradio, you know, doing all kinds of things.

[143] I made documentaries 44 ,000 feet over Moscow in zero gravity.

[144] Yeah, what's the story?

[145] Zero gravity over Moscow.

[146] It's like I think you have a vomit comet, don't you, the American space program.

[147] So it was the first time that the Russians had opened up the space program to tourism.

[148] And some reason I got chosen to go, I can't remember how, I won a lottery or something.

[149] I don't know.

[150] But I got chosen to go, and I'm possibly the worst person to do it.

[151] Because if you, zero gravity, I thought it would be like yogic flying, you know, really quite gentle.

[152] But it's actually like being on a roller coaster, the worst fairground ride you've ever been on in your life.

[153] Oh, no. And they took bets, the cosmonauts.

[154] They were all Russian cosmonauts who'd been on mere.

[155] You know, they had hair that was sort of at right angles to their heads, you know, because they'd been up there too long.

[156] And they, yeah, they had a bet.

[157] I could see that money was passing hands.

[158] I don't speak Russian, so I don't know what they were betting on.

[159] And then they said, do you like tennis?

[160] And I was, I'm sick on a garden swing, you know, so I was incredibly sick in these things.

[161] But I obviously wasn't performing well enough because the bet was on how much I was going to be sick.

[162] And somebody had bet, you know, 37 times and I only was up to 23.

[163] So they asked, did I like tennis?

[164] And I said, yeah, I quite like tennis.

[165] And they said, okay, next parabola.

[166] The parabola is the shape, the hill shape that you make when you're in zero gram.

[167] or going into zero gravity.

[168] They said, just hug your knees.

[169] So I said, well, how I don't have a racket?

[170] And he said, just hug your knees.

[171] And, of course, I was the ball.

[172] Oh, no. Yeah.

[173] So, yes, I performed 37 times.

[174] There was a very rich Russian cosmonaut, thanks to my vomit.

[175] Wait, how long did that flight last overall?

[176] We had to come back early because my heart went a bit funny.

[177] Oh, no. Really?

[178] Wow.

[179] So you'll do whatever it takes for a story, obviously.

[180] So can you tell us a little bit about how you found the story of the butterfly king and what drew you to it and all of the kind of backstory of you guys going, here we go.

[181] This is the new one we're working on.

[182] So finding the story, it was during COVID and my father died really sadly and I was down at their house and I was just like.

[183] looking through all his books actually and spending a bit of time there with my sisters.

[184] As I was looking through all his books and material and stuff, he had a very slender volume, which was called Hitler and the King by John Hall Spencer.

[185] And I just picked it up, clicked through it, and I thought, I don't know what this is.

[186] You know, what's this story about?

[187] You know, it just intrigued me. I had never heard of this story before, and I just thought that's quite unusual, particularly in that era, Second World War.

[188] We sort of feel like, you know, we've been through those stories a lot, and we sort of know about them all.

[189] But it involved Bulgaria, which I knew very little about.

[190] I just thought it was a sort of communist bloc country that, you know, there we are.

[191] But it was a country I didn't know much about.

[192] And then I'd seen that book, and then Blanchard House, this company, which I had joined, we were sort of thinking about ideas.

[193] And so I sort of suggested it.

[194] Maybe we should investigate what this is about and see if we can find out more about it.

[195] And then to E .J. Yeah, then I got lured over under false pretenses that I was going to have a lovely time and I get dumped with her to make the Butterfly King.

[196] Which was just great.

[197] It was just great to have E .J. there.

[198] And it's interesting.

[199] isn't it?

[200] Because you, you know, it's a story that I think interested you as well.

[201] Oh yeah, very, very much.

[202] I did, I'd worked a lot in Bulgaria and I really liked Bulgaria.

[203] Bulgaria is my favourite Eastern Bloc country.

[204] I really did like it.

[205] It is a fascinating place.

[206] It really is.

[207] You know, you've got these fabulous coastlines.

[208] You've got quite unpleasant wine, which has now become actually very pleasant.

[209] It is pleasant now.

[210] Is it?

[211] Yeah, it is.

[212] Honestly, it wasn't in my, well, you refuse.

[213] used to drink it, because it was very dark, you refused.

[214] Yeah, I did.

[215] But it is a bit rough.

[216] An incredible history.

[217] Incredibly history, you know, there's plovdiv, you know, their second biggest city.

[218] It's got a huge amphitheatre, Roman amphitheatre, you know, which I think was built in 1 AD or something.

[219] It's amazing.

[220] It's got coastline.

[221] It's got mountains.

[222] It's a gorgeous country.

[223] And it's actually one of the oldest countries in the world.

[224] It's got a huge history.

[225] It's, you know, partly it's sort of squaged.

[226] between Romania and Greece and it's got Turkey right down to its south.

[227] It's got a brilliant climate, it's brilliant influence.

[228] Yeah.

[229] It's, I really like Bulgaria.

[230] It seems like a secret place.

[231] Like, I, before listening to the podcast, didn't, I couldn't have named a single thing about Bulgaria, truly.

[232] And it's involvement in World War II, which I am interested in.

[233] It's not like I'm just completely oblivious.

[234] So it was very surprising Bulgaria of all places.

[235] Right.

[236] And then the idea that this, you know, it's a slight spoiler alert, but the point of the entire podcast is the king and what he does during World War II to protect Bulgarian Jews in that country.

[237] And the idea that that story isn't commonly known globally is shocking to me. Yeah.

[238] Because it's an unbelievable story.

[239] I think that's what was really intriguing and interesting.

[240] It's an amazing story that hardly anyone knows.

[241] It's a complex story.

[242] And it's also, I think, a story which, you know, people have a dispute over, even now, don't they?

[243] Oh, yeah.

[244] You know, the country's still very divided, you know, those who are royalists and those who are communists and those who believe that Boris did fantastically well, saving the Jewish population.

[245] And those who say he could have done a lot more, you know, and those who say his hands were tied.

[246] But, you know, the fact remains that while the rest of Europe was seeing its Jewish population, perhaps with the exception of Denmark, you know, absolutely slaughtered by the Nazis, Bulgaria's Jewish population increased during the Second World War.

[247] And the king was the head of the state.

[248] Yeah.

[249] And that's, you know, that was the thing that drew media.

[250] I love history, love Bulgaria.

[251] But honestly, I didn't know the story of Boris.

[252] And he is such an intriguing character.

[253] Everything about it, isn't it?

[254] Oh, he came alive for us.

[255] He really did, didn't he?

[256] And even though, you know, it's highly emotional for people in Bulgaria and for people across the world, you know, his legacy and what actually happened, it's also the fact that he was murdered.

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[277] Goodbye.

[278] was murdered.

[279] He was murdered.

[280] Mysteriously.

[281] It's been pushed under the carpet.

[282] You know, this whole story has just been pushed under the carpet.

[283] Nobody wanted to talk about it.

[284] And that was that.

[285] And we did want to talk about it.

[286] And we did want to, you know, dig it all up again and, you know, try and find people who could help us discover what really happened and what Boris was really like.

[287] But of course, it's 80 years on.

[288] So those witnesses are few and far between, except we found two Corker witnesses.

[289] Yeah, really exciting witnesses who agreed to talk to us for this podcast, which was just amazing.

[290] And his incredible children who were pretty young when he died, still have beautiful memories of their father, the king.

[291] How did you go about tracking down royalty from another country like that?

[292] Like what?

[293] You just cold email?

[294] Well, weirdly, I think initially, I think having found that book, I did definitely think we need the witnesses of the king's son, King Simeon, even though he's a sort of king.

[295] He didn't abdicate, but he was in exile when the communists came in.

[296] But anyway, we'll call him a sort of king, Simeon.

[297] And so it's quite strange.

[298] Yes, I initially, I found an email address for this person called Yavor, who was his, you know, who said he was a representative of King Simeon.

[299] I didn't hear anything for ages.

[300] I thought, oh, well, you know, I tried to call and then didn't hear anything.

[301] So it was sort of plodding a long times before we actually really started on it and then suddenly just up popped an email saying let's yes I think we can fit in 15 minutes at some point it was during COVID at that point so it was put on hold and then of course the negotiations started for we need a little bit more than 15 minutes and we need to talk about what happened to his father and all of this stuff and And slowly but surely we began to realize that it was the children who have this unanswered question, this ache in their heart of what happened to their father.

[302] Yeah, they just want to know, you know, they're very elderly now.

[303] They're 90 and 86.

[304] And they're desperate to know.

[305] He was their dear papa.

[306] We're talking about King Boris III of Bulgaria, this person that history has forgotten.

[307] But they feel their father's been forgotten.

[308] And, you know, they believe he was murdered and they are desperate to know the truth before they die, you know.

[309] And they are, you know, they don't have much time left.

[310] And unfortunately, they've only got us to tell the, to try out and find out.

[311] And also, it was also really striking was, you know, you expect, you know, it was quite nerve -wracking, obviously meeting them and everything.

[312] But what came out, I think, for both of us was after, you know, a few meetings, you know, they really relaxed.

[313] And just this sorrow that anyone would feel of losing a parent is so profound.

[314] And they were really open and we really shared their sadness, wasn't it?

[315] It was really heartbreaking.

[316] It was terribly sad, you know.

[317] And the way they talked about him, they sounded so close.

[318] And he was an interesting father and he liked engines and butterflies and having fun with his children.

[319] and they obviously, you know, enjoyed his company when they had a chance to see him.

[320] So I think he told them stories, didn't he, about people who lived under mushrooms.

[321] Yes.

[322] I remember he made up stories.

[323] It's just such a nice thing, isn't it?

[324] It's so sweet.

[325] First of all, you know, when I would be listening to episodes, it's like you're getting factual historical information, which I always appreciate because I have spotty education at best.

[326] And so listening to it and feeling very like, oh, yes, of course, Bulgaria, you know, like getting all that.

[327] But then the two of you, like one of my favorite parts and spoiler alert, if you don't want to hear anything about the details of this, you know, hit the 15 ahead.

[328] But you guys show up to the palace in a cab.

[329] The cab driver doesn't really know where the palace is because it's not well known, which I'm like, what?

[330] And then you guys get in.

[331] And at one point, I think Becky, you almost knock a vass.

[332] vase or you do knock a vase off of the table and when when I was listening like first of all of course my heart stopped but then also I was like oh my God they got this on tape they left it in they are so good like I was like this is going to be amazing because you're you're doing so many things at once telling this story teaching us about this amazing and maybe unheard of historical World War II event and then sharing your own experience as you try to it, get the story and solve this mystery.

[333] So great.

[334] That was a funny moment.

[335] That really was.

[336] Yeah, it was really bad.

[337] I was just trying to be friendly, put everyone at ease.

[338] And I realised that you weren't meant to touch anything.

[339] But then it just was really kind of interesting shape.

[340] And I just couldn't, you know, it just, I didn't, what was it?

[341] I didn't.

[342] I didn't know what it was.

[343] He just broke it.

[344] The great thing was that the king's suave aid, you know, who's so lovely and royal and, and, you know, would never make a fuss.

[345] about the fact that Becky had actually ruined the palace.

[346] He'd actually just said to us, and he explained what it was.

[347] I can't remember.

[348] And he said, it's practically unbreakable.

[349] And then Becky knocked it off and break it.

[350] And he said, well, nearly.

[351] I think the worst thing about that on tape, which I didn't realize I'd said was, anyway, just carried on.

[352] Literally sweats it under the carpet.

[353] Yeah, you're like, we're going to edit that out.

[354] Yes, exactly.

[355] But there's more important things to talk about them.

[356] I'm ruining your front room or whatever.

[357] We did have some funny moments, you know, although they're very serious moments.

[358] We also had quite a lot of, you know, it was funny at times with all the people we met.

[359] And actually, the royals themselves, you know, laughed a lot with us.

[360] We haven't mentioned, we've talked about King Simeon, but Princess Maria Louisa, God, I just want to be her, you know, she is so fantastic.

[361] And she, at the end of, you know, our interviews, she said she'd had a lovely time, you know, goodness me, I hope she did.

[362] And she's just being very polite.

[363] But she did say, do come and see us, didn't she?

[364] She said, come and stay.

[365] And then she, you look very excited.

[366] And she said, no, not this Christmas.

[367] Yeah.

[368] Yes, I was ready to pack my bags.

[369] Yeah.

[370] We could see her flat in, is it New York in the Bronx or whatever?

[371] New Jersey.

[372] New Jersey.

[373] The Bronx.

[374] Yeah.

[375] It's got that wrong.

[376] Anyway.

[377] And it just looks so lovely.

[378] I just thought, I said, can I bring the family?

[379] I'm moving.

[380] But yes, she suddenly said not this Christmas.

[381] She's got too many people around.

[382] But she was really interesting.

[383] She was fantastic.

[384] You know, they would call you, wouldn't they?

[385] Oh, yes.

[386] I did have a very embarrassing moment with her, actually, because during the summer, she called me, and I was partly live in France, and I was in the south of France.

[387] It was very, very hot in August, and I was in a bikini.

[388] And my phone went, and it was a sort of unknown number.

[389] So I don't know who that is.

[390] I said, yes, hello.

[391] And she said, oh, hello, this is Maria Louisa.

[392] And I thought, well, that sounds like the princess.

[393] That can't be the princess.

[394] So I said, sorry, who's this?

[395] And she said, her royal highness, Princess Marion, so immediately, you know, I sort of got down to my knees in my bikini.

[396] I was giving the cat its flea treatment at the time.

[397] So the cat's taken on all kinds of airs and graces since I was like, well, let me ask you this.

[398] They both sound amazing in the first episodes.

[399] You guys seem to actually have this connection.

[400] They seem excited about their father finally getting his story told.

[401] Were you a little nervous that you might dig up these less than savory.

[402] stories about him from the people who didn't see him as a hero and then you'd have to come back and report that to them, that seems like it'd be, you know.

[403] I think they've heard it before.

[404] They have.

[405] They know the criticism.

[406] They know the criticism and they're very defensive of their father.

[407] But they listened and they, our job is to ask really difficult questions, isn't it?

[408] Absolutely.

[409] I think you have to put it straight to them, you know, because that's what you find and then you have to ask, you know, well, you know, lots of people don't think your father was a hero.

[410] or lots of people think this about your father.

[411] He was a public, obviously a public figure.

[412] They're used to it and they are public figures.

[413] So in some ways, they kind of take it on the chin and they give as good as they get, really, don't they?

[414] I mean, they made their defence.

[415] So fair enough.

[416] And I think I came out of it, honestly, thinking from all the people we met, but particularly obviously from those that knew him and the stuff that we read in the archives, you know, personal diaries about meetings with him, etc., I just wish I'd met him I mean he is absolutely fascinating he was like a James Bond figure almost you know yeah and the real the real problem the real sort of thing is you know his position in World War II so it just leaves he just can't help but think oh God oh dear his hands were completely tied he was you know it was a catch 22 for him total catch 22 and you know we go into that in a light way of the politics of World War II.

[417] But this poor guy, you know, he couldn't do right for doing wrong.

[418] He was absolutely in the worst geographical position possible.

[419] He had, you know, Romania to his north.

[420] And that was, you know, occupied by the Nazis.

[421] He had Greece, occupied by the Italians.

[422] He was absolutely stuck economically dependent on Germany.

[423] No standing army, right?

[424] No standing army because of the first world.

[425] Exactly.

[426] Because of the First World War, they'd been on the wrong side in the First World War.

[427] And the Allies punished Bulgaria terribly.

[428] They lost huge swathes of territory.

[429] They lost the right to have an army.

[430] So they came to the Second World War and yeah, no army, nothing.

[431] And they wanted to be neutral.

[432] What we should say is, you know, one of the great things about Boris is he was a man who detested war.

[433] He hated war.

[434] He'd seen the Balkans war.

[435] He'd seen the First World.

[436] World War, and he'd seen horrific suffering and death, and he was terribly affected by it.

[437] I wanted to be neutral, just wanted to not make the same mistake that his father, Foxy Ferdinand.

[438] And he'd said, yeah, you know, that's it.

[439] That's my promise.

[440] When he ascended the throne, he said, that's my promise.

[441] I will never, ever see a Bulgarian soldier fight.

[442] I will never put a Bulgarian, yeah.

[443] It is that question of, like, what happens when you simply can't be neutral?

[444] You just, that isn't a choice you can make.

[445] What do you do?

[446] It's not going to be perfect, whatever you choose, you know, or whatever way you go.

[447] But what a diplomat.

[448] Yeah, a huge diplomat.

[449] I mean, he was treading a very fine line and, you know, he learned how to smile on both sides of his face, basically.

[450] Yeah.

[451] Try and keep everyone happy.

[452] But obviously, he didn't because.

[453] He didn't, no. No, because he had a lot of enemies.

[454] Yes, he had a lot of enemies.

[455] We were talking about this show the other day to some people, and we were talking through just some of the attempts on his life, where as you're listening to the podcast, you're just kind of like, is this real, like it again, it's happening, and again, he somehow gets out of it.

[456] Like, listening to this story and listening to it unfold, it is just larger than life.

[457] It really is kind of like you're saying a little James Bondi.

[458] here and there, even though that's not that character seems like not that way at all.

[459] He's much more of like, I like insects and, you know, nature.

[460] It's like Indiana Jones meets James Bond.

[461] Yeah, exactly.

[462] I'm sorry, I just realized insects.

[463] I actually heard insects.

[464] I thought insects.

[465] Karen's been doing her own research.

[466] That was the last thing he was interested in, wasn't it, really?

[467] Oh, got to hope.

[468] That's a different story.

[469] Yeah, we won't go down that road.

[470] That's after hours.

[471] Yeah, exactly.

[472] Is there any standout moments from making this podcast that you have that you want to share, good or bad?

[473] Good or bad.

[474] Oh, I think some of the people that we met, I would say our snake expert.

[475] And the great thing is that EJ does a great impression of our snake expert.

[476] No, you said you wouldn't make me do the question.

[477] So our snake expert is from Birmingham.

[478] So he has a, that's the Midlands in England, which he has.

[479] is quite a thick accent.

[480] And he was fantastic, wasn't?

[481] He looked like, if you've seen the Harry Potter films, he looked like Dumbledore from the Harry Potter films.

[482] He was fabulous, wasn't he?

[483] He was so funny as well.

[484] He was brilliant.

[485] And such an expert.

[486] I mean, the best person we could have talked to.

[487] But he kept bringing you to, you know, you would get very excited.

[488] Becky gets very excited doing interviews when she thinks she sniffed out something.

[489] And he would just say to her, it's not an Agatha Christi, Becky.

[490] It's not an Agatha Christi.

[491] But he would tell us about, he'd been bitten by snakes many, many, many times, been hospitalized, hadn't he, many, many times?

[492] And you said to him, I remember you said, oh, my God, I can't believe that you've got a mouthful of snake venom.

[493] And he said, yeah, that wasn't so bad.

[494] It was the mouthful of bat urine that was the worst.

[495] It got worse, yeah, but it's absolutely brilliant, because he did really bring it to life so well.

[496] You know, sometimes you can get experts, and they're.

[497] They're quite dry, you know, and they don't, you know, and you just kind of think, oh, I can't see my way through the woods with this.

[498] But all the people we talked to, of which there were so many experts because there's so many theories, and we had to sort of dig down and try and find out what the symptoms, how he died, what he looked like when he was dying, how long it took.

[499] And we just put all this in with the historical facts to try and come to a conclusion about, well, you know, how he was killed, who murdered.

[500] at him.

[501] And it was such a fascinating journey.

[502] And to do it together, you know, the standout moments, it sounds crass, maybe, but it's just that we just had such a laugh together.

[503] You know, the moment in the taxi, you know, trying to find the palace.

[504] And no one had heard of it.

[505] And it really was like going into this kind of nomadsland.

[506] I mean, it looked like there were these crazy, really dogs that looked like they were kind of about to jump home.

[507] I was a bit more scared than you were.

[508] I know.

[509] I got really tense about it because I love dogs.

[510] I don't know what it was about these dogs, but they were scary everywhere.

[511] And it didn't look like we were going towards a palace and that did make me laugh.

[512] And then we were just pushed out the taxi.

[513] We had to walk for ages trying to look for this palace.

[514] You had to find the entrance to the palace.

[515] Yeah, try and find a doorbell.

[516] It just seems so prosaic, doesn't it?

[517] For a palace, you expect to a few guys.

[518] I think that Joey was also meeting Bulgarians.

[519] All the Bulgarians we met who were so held.

[520] helpful.

[521] It was so interesting to talk to them, especially, you know.

[522] And also, there was using the royal loo.

[523] Oh, the royal loo, yeah.

[524] Of the royal loo.

[525] Yeah.

[526] The royal lavatory.

[527] E .J. went, I don't, I think she used the loo in a way that I didn't use the loo.

[528] Oh, no. Oh, no. Sorry.

[529] Excuse me, Becky.

[530] I think we'll row back from that.

[531] Wow.

[532] Hour.

[533] This is after hour.

[534] Bricking.

[535] I mean, there were sort of little sort of things which I thought were the kings, you know, a toothbrush comb and stuff.

[536] I didn't use all of it.

[537] No, I agree.

[538] Just use the powder puffs and things.

[539] I thought it was going too far.

[540] So we had a bit of a dispute about that.

[541] Which was quite funny.

[542] It did turn into, you know, it's a historical murder mystery.

[543] It did turn into a bit of a hysterical murder mystery.

[544] At times, at times.

[545] Because, you know, we did really try.

[546] and go down every avenue to try and find out.

[547] And I think we come up with a fairly good idea.

[548] I think so.

[549] I think that's the thing.

[550] Yeah, I was going to ask, are you satisfied with what you have come away with and the answers you've gotten?

[551] I think so, because I think, I mean, you will know this, but a lot of podcasts, you know, you listen to sort of 10 hours or eight hours of a podcast about a murder or, you know, a swindle or something or other.

[552] And the concluding episode is something like, oh, well, we'll never find out now.

[553] And you think, no, well, that's eight hours of my life, I'll never get back.

[554] But we have come up with a pretty solid, I think.

[555] Yeah.

[556] Bed of evidence for what we suspect happened.

[557] Yes.

[558] I think so.

[559] With everything from archives and evidence and all that stuff, I think we've come to the best conclusion we could have done.

[560] Yeah.

[561] And the archives, that was a highlight, actually.

[562] Yes.

[563] I really enjoyed it.

[564] I mean, you know, it sounds very dull.

[565] I've very much enjoyed the libraries and the archives.

[566] I very much enjoyed those.

[567] But it was really good because it's not the sort of thing I necessarily go and do.

[568] No, you were very reluctant.

[569] No, no, I did enjoy it, but you know, I knew we had to do it.

[570] But yeah.

[571] I enjoyed it.

[572] Are there any lingering mysteries you wish you still want answers to your?

[573] Is it maybe good to have some little mysteries at the end?

[574] There's some little mysteries.

[575] I tell you one thing that I think, which really intrigued me, is in the archives, we found these diaries from the former ambassador to the UK and also in Bulgaria and also what was Lord Lloyd.

[576] He was basically from the British Council, wasn't he was a spy, he was another James Bonfoo.

[577] I mean, it was the Second World War.

[578] Nobody was telling the truth.

[579] Everything was hidden.

[580] Everything was in code.

[581] Everything was.

[582] But these were their diaries, you know, and they were bitchy, don't they?

[583] They were really big.

[584] They were moaning about Bulgarian food and, you know, they don't like this and I don't like this.

[585] And that was really fun.

[586] But what I really liked is that at the end of having read Lord Rendell, the ambassador's diary, saying that, you know, Boris was treacherous and that he was done this and he was a terrible person.

[587] And you also got the sense that he really liked him and hated the fact that things were turning against Boris.

[588] And I read his end of mission statement after the war And he talks about, you know, maybe America, maybe Britain should have done more to help Boris.

[589] Maybe we should have done more.

[590] And, you know, it's fine to point the finger, but maybe we could have done a little bit more.

[591] And it does feel it's not something a mystery still left, but it just felt quite relevant to today because we've got so much going on in the world, so much conflict, so many elections everywhere.

[592] You know, there's just a feel of pressure, fear of people actually feeling, feeling it, feeling worried, or, you know, extreme emotions going on, that you could almost learn something from this and that you can see that he was in a difficult position and maybe reaching out.

[593] I think he wanted people to reach out to him, actually.

[594] But Churchill, definitely, the British Prime Minister at the time, turned his back on them.

[595] them.

[596] And there was no going back.

[597] And, you know, it just makes you think, gosh, you can get yourself boxed in.

[598] And there's nothing you can do.

[599] That's a good way to put it, actually.

[600] I mean, he was boxed in.

[601] Geographically, he was boxed in.

[602] Politically, he was boxed in.

[603] Historically, he was boxed in.

[604] You know, he was from this treacherous Sachs -Coburg family that, you know, had been on the wrong side in the last war.

[605] And who would trust a Sax -Coburg?

[606] I mean, that's what the feeling was.

[607] And it just feels like the perilous world.

[608] Do you know what I mean?

[609] No. I really do think about it now and just think, gosh, these things come back and haunt us all over again.

[610] I mean, at the end of the day, it is incredible what he actually achieved.

[611] And I am so thrilled.

[612] You guys are now telling this story that is not well known, but is an incredible heroic, you know, mystery in the middle of World War II.

[613] It's fascinating.

[614] And his children lived to see it, lived to see that story get told kind of in his light.

[615] It's beautiful.

[616] And I think that's really for them what's important, isn't it?

[617] They were saying, look, you know, you're not going to be able to say it was that man there because that man there's died some time ago, you know, who bumped off the king or whatever.

[618] But what they really want is for somebody to tell his story.

[619] because, you know, as we said at the beginning, everybody's forgotten King Boris the third of Bulgaria, and I don't think they should.

[620] I think he had an incredible role to play during the Second World War, a very difficult role to play.

[621] He played it exceptionally well.

[622] And I think for the children, what the story has been told, it sort of exonerates him, doesn't it?

[623] It brings him back to life in a way.

[624] And it paints a portrait of a man more realistic.

[625] He's neither, you know, there is no perfect hero, is there?

[626] There are only flawed heroes.

[627] We all know that.

[628] Well, apart from your husband, obviously.

[629] Absolutely.

[630] He makes a lovely cup of tea, your husband.

[631] I think it's really about, also, you know, we don't make a whole load of judgments ourselves about him, actually.

[632] It's the voices in the podcast, we hear their opinions, which are wide and varied.

[633] But what it does do is just tell the story.

[634] and then people can make up their own minds to a certain extent because there will be arguments on each side and then you can listen and think it's an interesting piece of history and make up your own mind.

[635] It's almost like you're really good really professional journalists You know exactly what you're doing we don't have that here a lot on my favorite murder but can I ask you I'm dying enough Oh, who would play King Boris in your minds, who would be the perfect actor.

[636] Obviously has to be a British, a renowned British actor.

[637] Oh, do you know, I was thinking about this the other day.

[638] Edward Fox?

[639] Hugh Bonneville.

[640] Hugh Bonneville.

[641] Really?

[642] Yeah, maybe.

[643] I did think of somebody else as well.

[644] You trying to look up your notes or something?

[645] Yeah, I was because I actually sent it to somebody.

[646] She's forgotten.

[647] No, I did.

[648] She's feeling.

[649] She's filling.

[650] She's a phone during this story.

[651] She's just a little.

[652] I'm bored.

[653] No, I did.

[654] Rory Kaneer.

[655] Oh, Rory Keneer.

[656] Which one's he?

[657] See, let me look about it.

[658] The one who was just in Bank of Dave.

[659] Yes, yes, he was.

[660] He was in Bank of Dave.

[661] Yeah.

[662] And the diplomat.

[663] He is a great character actor.

[664] Yeah.

[665] And he was in Charlotte.

[666] No, he's in James Bond, isn't he?

[667] I think he is.

[668] Yeah.

[669] Yes, that's right.

[670] I just watched that one.

[671] Oh, I totally see it for sure.

[672] Yes.

[673] He's been in a million things.

[674] But yeah.

[675] He'd have to shake.

[676] his head, hair off, because obviously Boris was, yeah, a little mustache.

[677] Get a hold of exactly right, media, his, if you're Rory's representatives.

[678] I love it.

[679] You've moved on to new projects.

[680] Is there anything exciting?

[681] Is there any secret, exciting locations that you can tell us about or anything about what you're working on now?

[682] You can tell you that we're both knackered.

[683] She's just come back from?

[684] I've just come back from Australia, Melbourne.

[685] Oh, Melbourne.

[686] It's a long flight.

[687] And I've just come back from Tamil Nadia.

[688] do in India.

[689] Wow.

[690] Wow.

[691] Yeah.

[692] So we were told we're not allowed to say anything else.

[693] No, we're not.

[694] I'd love it.

[695] I'd love to tell you everything about it because it was really interesting.

[696] They were unbelievable projects.

[697] Both of them are pretty crazy.

[698] Intrigue.

[699] Sort of more sort of slightly mystery, adventure, thrillery type things.

[700] Yeah.

[701] Well, you'll have to come back and tell us once the green light is for you guys to talk, we have to hear all about it.

[702] We'd love to do that.

[703] But there are no royals in mine.

[704] Have I got any royals?

[705] I don't think.

[706] Have you got, you hang around a lot with royals, do you?

[707] No, I'm just trying to think.

[708] I can't even think who's in them now.

[709] You know, when your brain leaves one.

[710] You just shut that door.

[711] I'm just thinking of the king.

[712] Yes, exactly.

[713] I can remember nothing about it.

[714] Well, you guys, it's been, I mean, it's so lovely to meet you in person because we have been meeting with Rosie from Blanchard House for a while now.

[715] And the idea that we get to work with, what feels like our British equivalent of Exactly Right, which is Blanchard House media, it's so nice.

[716] And it's just truly been a dream working with you on this project.

[717] It's so cool.

[718] And we're honored to be a part of the Blanchard House family.

[719] And we're thrilled that you guys are here in the Exactly Right family.

[720] So thank you for all your hard work and everything.

[721] Oh, well, thank you.

[722] We're just on us for her.

[723] To be part of the ERM family.

[724] Exactly.

[725] Thank you.

[726] Thank you so much.

[727] We really appreciate it.

[728] We can wait for everyone, all the murderers to hear this incredible story and you are both such great storytellers.

[729] It's thrilling.

[730] So episodes one and two of the Butterfly King premiere on Thursday, March 21st, new episodes every Thursday.

[731] Please, please, please, please follow, rate, review, subscribe, and it's so helpful and needed for podcasts.

[732] That was awesome.

[733] Thank you so much.

[734] All right.

[735] Well, we'll just wrap up in front of two, experience BBC reporters, like it's no big deal.

[736] Stay sexy.

[737] And don't get murdered.

[738] Goodbye.

[739] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[740] This has been an exactly right production.

[741] Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[742] Our managing producers, Hannah Kyle Creighton.

[743] Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[744] This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachey.

[745] Our researchers are Marin McClashin and Ali Elkin.

[746] Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[747] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[748] Goodbye.