LIVE FROM SAN FRANCISCO: W. Kamau Bell

[0] If you know this, sing along, all right?

[1] He's an armchair expert.

[2] I've done the show in front of this many people.

[3] I feel like Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania 4.

[4] I mean, what an arena we're in.

[5] I think they do like monster truck jams here and stuff.

[6] For real, for real, for real.

[7] This is fucking bonkers.

[8] I'm a scumbag and I don't deserve this, but my partner in crime deserves all this.

[9] Look these fucking aren't cherries there are here Guys we wanted to come to the city on the bay Trolley City City of Hills Yeah Do you say full house?

[10] Yeah okay Lombardi Street Okay We have someone who I think embodies everything that is glorious about Oakland, California W. Kamau Bay Some skin to skin Guy I saw on Bart earlier.

[11] I thought when you said K. Bell, it would be a different K. Bell.

[12] Now, your shirt, when I saw you tonight, I saw that your shirt says, I got my freedom papers in Mobile, Alabama.

[13] What does that mean?

[14] It's a little bit complicated story.

[15] So, my dad's from Mobile, Alabama.

[16] A very handsome man. If you guys, you check out United States of America.

[17] Yes, sir.

[18] You go back to Alabama.

[19] And his father's in it.

[20] And his father's 6, 6, and just a bona fide straight tent.

[21] Yeah, he's a Brad Pitt level 10.

[22] Yeah, he's a, as many women said on the internet, and men, he's a snack.

[23] He's a damn snack, yeah, the damn snack.

[24] I was thirsty as hell watching that episode.

[25] I know, I showed my dad the tweets.

[26] He does not tweet, so I was like, hey, just so you know.

[27] I don't get these tweets, yeah.

[28] I get like, you seem like a brother.

[29] Yeah.

[30] I would call you if I had car trouble.

[31] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[32] Brother ER, not brother with an A. But you went back to Alabama, to Mobile.

[33] I went back to, yeah, which I go a lot, but I took the show there.

[34] So Mobile, Alabama is famous.

[35] for basically two things.

[36] It's the birthplace of Mardi Gras.

[37] People think it's New Orleans, not New Orleans.

[38] And it's the place for the last slave ship landed.

[39] Woo!

[40] There we go.

[41] There we go.

[42] And so in my book, I wrote about that, and I wrote, it's hard to sort of capitalize on being the place for the last slave ship landed.

[43] It doesn't really help tourism.

[44] Right.

[45] You couldn't sell a lot of shirts that said, I got my freedom papers in Mobile, Alabama.

[46] Oh.

[47] It's like a drunk Bourbon Street shirt you'd buy.

[48] I got Bourbon FaceTime Shit Street.

[49] Yes.

[50] It's my favorite shirt from, think about it.

[51] I got bourbon -faced on shit street.

[52] They get it.

[53] They don't need to think about it.

[54] Well, why aren't they laughing then, Monica?

[55] Maybe they didn't think it was funny.

[56] She's the boss.

[57] So weirdly, I did an event with Bill and Melinda Gates.

[58] Okay.

[59] They bring a bunch of high school students in and talk to them about, you know, they had their yearly letter and they talk about good things.

[60] These are all students who competed to get there.

[61] It's a whole great thing.

[62] And one of the Bill Gates, Melinda Gates, people, they have like a team of people.

[63] I should hope so, yeah.

[64] Like Bill Gates doesn't read your book, but one of his people.

[65] people do.

[66] Of course.

[67] And he hands me this shirt that says, I read your book.

[68] And I had totally forgotten about writing that in my book.

[69] And I was like, what does this mean?

[70] Oh, so you didn't know either.

[71] I wrote the book in like a fever dream in six months.

[72] I didn't really remember.

[73] I was like, that's funny.

[74] I thought it was funny.

[75] And then he showed me in my book where I'd said that.

[76] And I was like, great.

[77] Now your book, Awkward Thoughts by Kamau Bell, right?

[78] Did you write that because you were dying to?

[79] Or did you find out like, oh, I can get kind of a nice advance and then panic like I've got to turn this in.

[80] How did it work?

[81] A little from column A, a little from column B. Okay, great.

[82] A little mix -mash.

[83] Yeah, so I always wanted to write a book.

[84] I got a chance to write a book.

[85] I was happy to write a book, but then it was like, we need this book in like six months because we don't really know if you're going to be famous in a year.

[86] Okay, that's...

[87] It was the first season of United Shades.

[88] They're like, maybe this doesn't go that much longer.

[89] My cousin and Kate Jemison's an author, and they talk about like, it's time for me to write my book, so I'm going to go offline and I'm going to spend time at Joshua Tree, and I'll be back in a year and a half with my book.

[90] But I was like on the road in vans, filming United Shades.

[91] Like, you can't get my freedom papers in Mobile, Alabama.

[92] You are from many, many places, right?

[93] You were brought home from the hospital to Palo Alto?

[94] Yes.

[95] So, hometown kid?

[96] You ended up in Boston?

[97] Yeah.

[98] For a while.

[99] What age did you move to Boston?

[100] So I was in Palo Alto.

[101] I was a baby.

[102] We moved to Indianapolis where my mom is from.

[103] Because, yes.

[104] We're going to say a lot of places.

[105] This is fun.

[106] Then my mom got a job in Boston, so we moved to Boston.

[107] Then my mom got tired of Boston's specific style of racism because it's a very specific style of racism in Boston.

[108] I want to hear about that.

[109] Yeah, I do too.

[110] I do too.

[111] And so then she's like, I would like more of a Midwest racism, so we moved to Chicago.

[112] Sure, sure.

[113] Like racism with a smile.

[114] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[115] But then we moved Chicago.

[116] My dad lived in Alabama.

[117] I used to go every summer, and I didn't really like Chicago at that point, so I moved to live with my dad for two and a half years in Mobile, Alabama.

[118] then moved back to Chicago where I graduated from high school.

[119] Okay, so were mom and dad ever married?

[120] My mom and dad were never married.

[121] I got to be real careful because Janet's here, his mom.

[122] I met her backstage.

[123] And she's not to be trifled with.

[124] No. She's not to be fucked with.

[125] She will come up here if need be, just so you're aware.

[126] She said, do you know the Mao -Mow?

[127] And I said, no. She said, shame on you.

[128] Yes, she did.

[129] Which is weird because it was like three minutes after she was like, oh my god like she was starstruck that war up so quick and then it was like you're wrong yes I under delivered for sure um okay so can you please tell us this specific Boston brand of racism because we talked about this a bit on the on the show which is I love Boston we all love Boston but I feel often when I'm there talking with white transpo guys I just feel like there's only one probe question before it's like are we good to go there like are you You know, and I'm like, no, no, no, I'd rather not.

[130] Yeah, I'd rather not.

[131] Yeah, yeah.

[132] It's like a muscular liberalism, I would say, because it's a blue city.

[133] That's what's so weird about it is it's hyper liberal.

[134] It's the liberals, like, we don't really, we have some of that out here, but it's like the liberals that will punch you in the face, you know, for not being liberal enough.

[135] Yes, yes.

[136] But it's also like, there's an undercurrent of just, I mean, it's one of the first sort of America landing.

[137] So racism was like sort of, they sort of worked on early racism in Boston.

[138] Right.

[139] Before they got it to out here, where it was like, now it's perfect.

[140] It's kind of proprietary.

[141] Yeah.

[142] Yeah, yeah.

[143] So Boston has still got like, this is the original recipe for Coke.

[144] Oh, it's sweeter and thicker.

[145] It's like it's a sweeter, thicker racism in Boston.

[146] That makes sense.

[147] Like if you go on YouTube and they go, this is how you would make a Coke from 1920s.

[148] Yes, yes.

[149] That's Boston racism.

[150] It's authentic.

[151] It's really authentic.

[152] You can taste it in the sauce.

[153] Yes.

[154] And the thing my mom hated is that even some of the black people are like, like, there's everything in Boston where every white person's like, well, my family came over on the Mayflower.

[155] But even the black people were like, well, my family was owned by people on the Mayflower.

[156] So there's like a really, it's a real confused.

[157] Good for you?

[158] All that moving around, you're like basically a military kid, which can result, in my opinion, in one of two things.

[159] You're probably super good at new situations and meeting people and all that.

[160] Or you're a psychopath, which I've met a lot of those too.

[161] Yeah.

[162] Where it's like you're so much you don't know who you are or where you're at.

[163] The first one.

[164] You did well when you went to these places No, no, I didn't do well, but I would sort of blend into the background And despite the fact I'm 6 '4, 260 pounds Handsome as fuck Well, not as hands my dad, but...

[165] Not as handsome as your dad.

[166] Yeah, I'll grow into it.

[167] But I can pretty much sort of disappear in any situation because I just know how to like sort of be in rooms and sort of not be in the middle of things, even though I'm also like a target because of racism.

[168] Were these schools you went to predominantly white?

[169] I mean, we would move around a lot.

[170] I did go to a lot of private schools, but my mom was like, we're moving tomorrow and so it would be like okay so you just go to the school it's in the neighborhood and so i went to a lot of different schools but i sort of always had a feeling like i'm not going to be here that long what was your technique you were funny is that is that what no you weren't great no i was hilarious but i was super shy i mean i'm still super shy it's just i'm so cute something about shy is really cute isn't it you flirt with everybody in your podcast i've listened dax you can't play that with me like i'm special like i'm the one i've listened to enough episodes This is your thing to open me up.

[171] That's right.

[172] I mean, it's working a little bit.

[173] I'm crossing my legs.

[174] Time to get vulnerable.

[175] Midway through, I'm going to sit next to you on the couch.

[176] This is no ordinary love.

[177] Shaw Day, 93.

[178] Nice.

[179] When I have a guest on the show that we've not met and we meet in the green room, there's a kind of cute little cat dance that goes on where I'm like trying to figure out what Kamau's music history is.

[180] and then I found out like, ooh, he liked Fishbone.

[181] I think we might have something in common.

[182] And there was like little things came out throughout.

[183] I feel like I was one of those kids and this was the new school.

[184] Yeah, I'm very good in that situation.

[185] Like, okay, I'll just try to blend in.

[186] I don't even like Fishbone.

[187] I was just going to say.

[188] They talked about it for 45 minutes.

[189] I'm good at pretending I know what I'm talking about.

[190] That's kind of my career and brand.

[191] No, I mean, I feel like it's Sacralage.

[192] I'm a huge fan of Fishbone.

[193] But I'm a big Wikipedia person who's like, what did you say?

[194] and I'll look at, I know a little about a lot of things.

[195] Right.

[196] Like, you knew G .G. Allen.

[197] I knew G .G. Allen.

[198] But also, that's an age thing.

[199] No. No, no, no, no. Maybe.

[200] Most of the dudes I knew and dude.

[201] Monica.

[202] In your case, it was, in your case, it was an age thing, for sure.

[203] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[204] In school, as you were moving around, can you remember what your tactic was?

[205] Did you play sports?

[206] No. Okay, great.

[207] Not funny.

[208] No sports shy.

[209] I was funny.

[210] I just didn't say it out loud.

[211] I was hilarious.

[212] You were right in front.

[213] funny notes of people?

[214] No, I wasn't connecting.

[215] Okay.

[216] Maybe I am a psychopath.

[217] Wait a minute.

[218] You're quickly moving towards the other category for me. Oh, my God.

[219] Was it hard?

[220] I'm an only child, so I'm very fine with my own company.

[221] Oh, yeah, okay.

[222] That makes sense.

[223] I don't need other people around.

[224] My wife is similar, and Monica and I were just talking about this.

[225] Like, my wife will be at a very busy party with all of our best friends.

[226] She'll go upstairs and read a book for 20 minutes.

[227] Yeah, buddy.

[228] What kind of person does this?

[229] A person who is secure in their own company.

[230] Yes, who's way more, less codependent than I am.

[231] Like, you invite people to your house.

[232] You can't read a book?

[233] I'm sorry.

[234] You're going to have to find another time to read a book than when you've invited people three weeks out to come over.

[235] There were patterns.

[236] There were two only children.

[237] One was Kristen reading a book.

[238] The other was this guy, Eric, who was taking a nap on the lawn while we're around him talking and he couldn't care less.

[239] And then the oldest were also very predictable.

[240] Uh -huh.

[241] Very rule following.

[242] Yes, yes.

[243] And then the middle children, Ryan and I. We're trying to like entertain everyone.

[244] Yeah, yeah, get all the attention.

[245] Ham and cheese.

[246] Yeah.

[247] Okay, back to you.

[248] Yep.

[249] How did you do with gals?

[250] Oh, not good.

[251] We're just going right into all the things.

[252] Were you good at Nintendo or anything?

[253] I was okay.

[254] I was okay.

[255] You're the only kid who didn't know up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, ABBA?

[256] You were the only person playing Contra with three lives?

[257] I mean, I didn't own a Nintendo.

[258] I had to rent it from the video store every week.

[259] Oh, come on.

[260] The video connection in high park.

[261] I can handle you being shy in shit, but if you can't afford Nintendo, No, that's just going to bring it all down.

[262] Well, see, America was founded.

[263] No, I mean, I was a super fan of comedy from way back in the day.

[264] I'm of the age where I sort of remember the first cast of Saturday Live.

[265] I don't think I watched it live necessarily, but I remember, I remember when Eddie Murphy was like the guy in the back of the scene.

[266] I'm like, why don't they let him talk?

[267] And then slowly he worked his way up to the front.

[268] So I'm a big fan of comedy.

[269] Also, growing up in the 80s, like comedy was everywhere, stand -up.

[270] I was a huge stand -up fans.

[271] And then I was also at the same time a huge martial arts fan.

[272] I used to take martial arts classes.

[273] So I would leave school and go take martial arts classes.

[274] Hold on a second.

[275] He's so excited.

[276] What discipline and can we spar?

[277] Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, boy.

[278] There it is.

[279] For the listeners at home, he's doing a lot of intimidating gestures, all physical.

[280] Good stretching.

[281] So, yeah.

[282] Moie Thai?

[283] Huh?

[284] No. Moie Thai is what you're trying to say.

[285] The mooie tie?

[286] This is so, yeah.

[287] It is like fifth grade.

[288] I am.

[289] I'm so insecure about pronouncing your name.

[290] It's all me. I just want to own it right now.

[291] The thing is I get it.

[292] A lot of people have a hard time of my name, but it's also a real easy name to say.

[293] It's true.

[294] So I'm not.

[295] It's true.

[296] Well, in that it's not, there's not like nine syllables in it.

[297] I feel you there.

[298] And the two that are there are like common.

[299] Did you ever go by Walter?

[300] I did.

[301] You did.

[302] Yeah.

[303] Guys, that's what the W stands for.

[304] I moved around a lot.

[305] So I was always come out.

[306] My dad's name was Walter.

[307] I was always come out at home, my family.

[308] My mom would only call me Walter if she was trying to make me angry.

[309] Are you in big trouble?

[310] No, not in big trouble.

[311] Like, specifically to make me angry.

[312] Yeah, like, I'm sorry, Walter.

[313] Oh, okay.

[314] Like, just because I knew what their relationship was, I was like, that's not a, yeah.

[315] So, especially when I got to, like, middle school and high school, and they would, like, just read your name off of the role they were given from the administrator.

[316] And they'd say, Walter Bell, I'd be like, well, actually, I'm, nah, it's fine.

[317] I'm not going to be here that long.

[318] It'll be fine.

[319] In high school, my friend, my best friends who met me in high school, my best friend Jason, knew me as Walter.

[320] And someone I had to come and, like, come out as come out of him.

[321] Did he think you were trying to reclaim something?

[322] Was it like going to, from Cassius Clay to Muhammad Ali?

[323] Yeah, except, yeah, except it was sort of a reverse.

[324] I sort of was Muhammad Ali, went by Cash.

[325] It was like, I got to go back to Muhammad.

[326] I got you.

[327] You know, in honor of having you, I got a bell tattooed on my ring finger.

[328] Oh.

[329] Yeah.

[330] See, I'm back.

[331] I'm back.

[332] He does this to everybody.

[333] I'm falling for it.

[334] I hate to dwell on this, but...

[335] What did we do about girls?

[336] From the second I was 12, I only had two priorities in life, was drive a car and have a girlfriend.

[337] I'm trapped in my own...

[338] I don't have a driver's license still.

[339] Oh, my goodness.

[340] Really?

[341] Oh, my God.

[342] Total psycho.

[343] By the way, you were vindicated.

[344] You're like, someday I'll be able to pull out my phone and get a ride whenever I want.

[345] And now here we are.

[346] Yeah, there you go.

[347] If you people would get all over your fear of robot cars, we could be done with driver's license.

[348] Yeah, so I just didn't, I didn't know how to talk to girls, so I just, I mean, I wanted to and, you know, I just didn't.

[349] I mean, there was a point in which I thought maybe I'll be one of those people who doesn't date.

[350] That's what you thought?

[351] I literally generally thought, like, maybe I'm just destined for that.

[352] You know, you know that adult when you're a kid who, like, isn't with anybody of any sex or gender and they're sort of like living through the world.

[353] Yeah.

[354] Now I'm envious with that adult.

[355] Like, man, would it be great to just sort of be homely, by yourself?

[356] Well, my wife's here.

[357] I should probably, let's cut that out.

[358] She is here in person, though, so she will remember it.

[359] Yeah, that's true.

[360] Yeah, it all worked out.

[361] Your wife's beautiful.

[362] I met her, and you've procreated.

[363] And I ended up with a popular person.

[364] Like, she's a popular person.

[365] Right, definitely.

[366] She immediately, I thought that when I met her.

[367] I'm like, this girl was popular.

[368] Does she drive?

[369] Yes.

[370] Okay.

[371] All right.

[372] And not happy about the no license thing.

[373] You're not the first person.

[374] Did my wife drive her kids somewhere?

[375] I would divorce her.

[376] Okay, just relax.

[377] I would.

[378] Why don't you ask why?

[379] Why don't you have one, Walter Camel Bell?

[380] This is really taking a different direction.

[381] No, because I know, because he's, so he's going to go, I'm blind.

[382] That's what's next.

[383] Shy, no Nintendo, blind.

[384] I never felt so bad for a gorgeous 6 '4 genius comedian in my life.

[385] True.

[386] How do you get to be a great comedian?

[387] if you don't experience, like, you know, sadness.

[388] That's probably true.

[389] Me and Richard Pryor stories are very similar.

[390] Born in a whorehouse, I was an only child who wasn't that good at Nintendo.

[391] It's very similar.

[392] Are you a bit of a historian on him?

[393] Yes.

[394] His autobiography is one of the great comedy autobiographies of all time.

[395] Well, and I got these early VHS tapes of some of his sets in New York before he was super popular, and one of his routines, he was just like, you all sucked a dick.

[396] and this is like 72.

[397] Yeah, even New Yorkers are like, this is a little bit much, sir.

[398] You know, they were freaking out.

[399] And then he just goes into how everybody sucks a dick eventually.

[400] And I was like, that was my experience.

[401] He hit, he nailed it.

[402] Yeah, it's called Live and Smoking, and it's him sort of working out, how do I be Richard Pryor on stage?

[403] Yes.

[404] And it's a very famous, like, for a comic, you kind of want to go through that phase on some level, like when you just say whatever you want to say on stage and figure out the stuff that works and the stuff that is used.

[405] That's one of the boldest leaps I've ever seen.

[406] Yeah, nobody's...

[407] In 72 is someone identifying as straight.

[408] Yes.

[409] Even now, it would be a pretty bold statement for a heterosexual, cisgender straight guy.

[410] So then my follow -up question...

[411] No, I'm just...

[412] So, and did you, did you at any point when you were at this age?

[413] Did you think I'm going to try to pursue this?

[414] No, I really didn't feel like I didn't know how you started doing comedy.

[415] I didn't live near a comedy club.

[416] I didn't know what a comedy club was.

[417] it seemed like too far off.

[418] And I really at that point was like, I'm going to be the next Bruce Lee.

[419] That was my plan.

[420] Oh, right.

[421] So we didn't cover what discipline you were training in.

[422] So I started out like a rec center in Alabama and like Taekwondo by some guy who claimed he had a black belt, but who knows.

[423] Sure.

[424] But then later on I was Chicago, I found a school that taught Wing Chung Kung Kung Fu, which was Bruce Lee's original style.

[425] So I was super excited about it.

[426] Yeah.

[427] Is Bruce Lee up there with Pryor?

[428] Is he like...

[429] Bruce Lee's ahead of Pryor for me. Wow.

[430] I mean, just personally.

[431] And he lived in San Francisco.

[432] now?

[433] Born as Arizona, lived in Oakland.

[434] Oh.

[435] Wait a minute.

[436] And Seattle.

[437] Do you rent Bruce Lee's old house?

[438] I did.

[439] Yes.

[440] Like Tarantino got Travolta's apartment.

[441] Did you end up in Bruce Lee's apartment?

[442] I'm a lot like Quentin Tarantino, so that's yes.

[443] Everything he does, I try to like, I'm going to do that.

[444] I say the N -word all the time.

[445] Do you not?

[446] I don't even know that about you.

[447] I say it when I need to, but I think he probably said it more in his life than I've said it in my life.

[448] He uses, like a kid uses ketchup.

[449] You know what I mean?

[450] I use it like cumin.

[451] Like, well, we need a little inward here.

[452] It's a strong spice.

[453] It's a real.

[454] It can be overpowering sometimes.

[455] Quentin, I don't think the Rice Krispies need ketchup.

[456] I think they do.

[457] Do you like his movies?

[458] I like some of his movies.

[459] Let's say Pulp Fiction.

[460] That's a classic.

[461] I mean, it's one of the best movies ever made.

[462] It's a great movie, yeah.

[463] If it comes on TV, I watch it.

[464] And Sam Jackson's speeches are among the best speeches ever made in any movie.

[465] Quentin Tarantino is a great writer of screenplays.

[466] This is kind of what's fun about these conversations.

[467] Please leave that pregnant pause, and that was amazing.

[468] Oh, I will.

[469] It's important to the story.

[470] Now I'm on the high wire, and I've got to choose my words perfectly.

[471] So those speeches were so good.

[472] Can a white dude write those speeches?

[473] It turns out white people tend to do lots of things.

[474] Almost everything I would say Monica, let's do a side podcast So Sidebar They do a lot White people Specifically white men Yep Can you say white boys White boys?

[475] I prefer it Or honkeys or crackers Oh yeah Blue -eyed devils Blue -ey devils Oh you're coming up with more I'm trying to like think of the other The white man keeps chiming in Let me explain to you people of color What you call a white boy My Muni Pass is about to expire So I got to go But thanks for having me on This was really great That's my transfer I'm about to go bad Oh boy Wait continue what were you going to say So yeah Taranty you can do whatever you want to do I mean when you're a white guy I guess what I'm asking is, it scares me when I'm watching it.

[476] I'm like, wow, he handed that script to a lot of black actors, and he wrote all the words.

[477] I just don't know where I stand on that.

[478] It's very tricky, but yet I love his movie, so this is an exciting thing to figure out.

[479] Well, I think there's a thing I think is the problem, is that you can like things that you like that aren't necessarily worth defending.

[480] Oh, yeah, totally agree.

[481] That's a great point, yeah.

[482] I think you can like a Tarantino movie or not like it, but there's a thing we have in society right now, I think it's related to social media.

[483] The people have to defend the things they like like they have inherent goodness.

[484] So Tarantino can drop the in -word as much as he wants to.

[485] You can like it, but then if I go, that's a little bit too much inward.

[486] You don't have to be like, you don't understand me's on sand and how his influences are from Japanese cinema.

[487] You don't have to do that shit.

[488] But people get really dug in, and Tarantino's, because he gets dug into defending himself.

[489] Like, dude, just write your movies and direct him and whether they like him or not like him.

[490] What would you say if his answer in that was like, oh, I don't know, I'm a racist.

[491] If he just jumped right to it, then I almost feel like the debate about whether he could or should or whatever is kind of moot.

[492] Just the problem with the word racist that people have is that we think it's one thing.

[493] If you say he's a racist, you're sort of aligning him with like the clan.

[494] But there are levels of racism and racial inappropriateness.

[495] 100%.

[496] Yeah.

[497] Just like it's dangerous to point out, like David Duke's probably different than Tarantino.

[498] Sure, but David Duke might be like, I love Gwen Tarantino movies.

[499] Or without a question, he loves them, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[500] And then you have to sort of sit with that.

[501] How does that make you feel?

[502] Does it make you feel anything?

[503] So I went to see Django and Chained, kind of because I felt like I needed to because it was like, uh -oh, black guy's slavery movie.

[504] Got to go check this out.

[505] Sure, sure.

[506] Because I know white people are going to ask me about it.

[507] It's also kind of my brand.

[508] So I went to see it, and there's a moment where I've only seen the whole movie once.

[509] And there's lots of it that I enjoy.

[510] Jamie Fox is amazing.

[511] amazing.

[512] Christopher Waltz is like an amazing actor.

[513] Again, speeches, great thing.

[514] But there's a moment where there's like, I think Jamie Fox is like hung upside by his balls or something weird is happening.

[515] And I'm having this real visceral like, I'm a black guy who has balls and this is slavery and wow, that looks horrible.

[516] And next to me are two like young white girls who are like, want to see Jamie Fox's penis.

[517] You know what I mean?

[518] I have to say I was a little bit in that camp of those young girls.

[519] I'm just saying I wasn't a minded scene.

[520] Well, no. In a different situation, I might be in that camp.

[521] But not against the backdrop of the horrors of American slavery.

[522] I think if I could walk you through, I was like, oh, my God, this is almost too much.

[523] Do you think we're going to see his penis?

[524] Like, it definitely transitioned.

[525] I might have gotten there, but there was these, like, two teenage white girls who were like, penis!

[526] They were just, like, ready.

[527] And I'm, like, sort of having flashbacks with the transatlantic slave trade that I didn't know I had in my system.

[528] Like, the fact that a lot of Quentin Tarantino, the way he sort of does it is sort of unemotionally.

[529] Yeah.

[530] So it sort of becomes a blank slave.

[531] for people to sort of put on whatever they want to put on.

[532] Well, it was, many people described it as slavery porn.

[533] Yeah.

[534] But there was kind of a bunch of those in that same period where it was like, very weird cathartic thing, like 12 years of slave even.

[535] It was just like, is this how we're processing this?

[536] Well, yeah, for me, 12 years of slavery, I well acted, well executed.

[537] I met John Ridley, he's a nice guy.

[538] But I was like, is the message that slavery was bad?

[539] Right, right, right.

[540] I got it.

[541] Uh -huh.

[542] Yeah.

[543] Yeah.

[544] And so to see people walk out of it and be like, oh, my God.

[545] God, slavery was awful.

[546] Did you go to high school in Texas?

[547] With those different textbooks?

[548] So for me, there's a part of it that is like, we're not all having this discussion at the same level.

[549] And so sometimes it's hard.

[550] Because there's a binary option on the table, which is racist, not racist.

[551] And there's no room to own it.

[552] Like, for us to grow beyond it, it's kind of like, did you see that Michael Moore documentary Who to Invade Next?

[553] And he goes around the world, and like any country that had a great idea, he decides he's going to steal it and bring back to the U .S. And he goes to Germany.

[554] And what they do in Germany to remember the Holocaust is the kids in school for a month, that's all they study.

[555] The kids have to pack everything that they would want in a small little box, and that's all they're going to own for that month.

[556] Like, it's a dedicated time where they recognize what happened.

[557] And I think for us to start that type of process, there are a dedicated time.

[558] has to be a little bit of safe ground, I guess, where it's like you can own your biases and own that and come up with tools to correct that.

[559] If the only options are I'm a Nazi or I'm an ally, that doesn't leave a lot of room for people to own whatever level they have.

[560] I think that's, I think it's true, but I think there's a difference between being a racist and being a Nazi.

[561] The wardrobe?

[562] Like a Nazi's a job.

[563] Like I think we are throwing around the word Nazi a lot, And that's a specific person who believes the specifics I believe has a wardrobe, where I feel like racist is like, are you hungry?

[564] I'm a little bit hungry.

[565] Are you racist?

[566] You're a little bit racist.

[567] Do you know what I mean?

[568] We have to accept the fact that I think the problem is, and this happens with white people a lot, is there so much fear of the word racism that there's no room to be like, these are ways in which you are racist because they think that that immediately aligns them with the clan.

[569] You want to talk about something that could raise defensiveness.

[570] It's like if the stakes are, I'm going to be labeled as a Nazi versus I'm going to own this, whatever three on the spectrum I am.

[571] and then be open to coaching and learning and changing, I'm probably just going to dig on that I'm not a Nazi, because I'll fight to the death that I'm not a Nazi.

[572] But people also have to be okay with feeling bad, asking questions, following up.

[573] I think the problem is that shame is okay, but people want to run away from shame.

[574] Shame is a motivating factor to change.

[575] It's happened to me several times tonight.

[576] I'm learning.

[577] Yeah, my mom actually put shame on you.

[578] I like it.

[579] She didn't beat around the bush.

[580] She's like, shame on you.

[581] But the thing you did is you sort of went, okay, and then you guys kept talking.

[582] Well, I asked her to tell me about it.

[583] Exactly.

[584] And I think there's not enough of, like, tell me about this.

[585] Like, I had a friend, my friend Martha, who was like, basically was like, you can't talk about racism and make sexism worse.

[586] You're being sexist in the world.

[587] And I was like, no, I'm not, Martha.

[588] And then it becomes like, well, how much do I value this friendship?

[589] Do I believe this person is smarter than me specifically in this area?

[590] And do I have enough self -care that I can sit here and listen to it without falling apart?

[591] Yeah.

[592] And the answer for me in that moment was like, yeah, I do.

[593] So for me, it's like when people accuse me of things, I'm now at the point of like, did I?

[594] Well, let me think that through.

[595] Tell me about it.

[596] Yeah.

[597] You know, America's original sin is racism.

[598] And people want to act like it was all in the past.

[599] When history is not a series of dots and dashes, it's a line.

[600] And so we're connected to all these things.

[601] Oh, it was five seconds ago in reality.

[602] And people today in Chicago that couldn't buy a house in the 70s, right?

[603] Because there was coalitions to prevent them.

[604] I mean, there just a ton of very recent stuff or even me i grew up learning oh we had slavery then this angel abraham lincoln came by he freed all the black folks and we straight so everything's good and then i read grant and i was like oh no reconstruction was like almost gnarlyer than the war and they were shooting black people who were trying to vote oh i didn't hear about that like i heard all good yeah and i think that we're sharecropping it's like slavery except you owe us money Wait, what?

[605] Can we go back to slavery?

[606] That is the benefit of movies like 12 years of slave, even though it's eye -roly when they're like, oh, no, slavery's bad, but if they didn't know that and this helped them know that, it's still somewhat of a win.

[607] No, I think the movie is a good movie.

[608] I just feel like, to me, it's an indictment of the education system that people would have to walk out of the woman and go, man, slavery was bad, huh?

[609] Yeah, exactly.

[610] It is.

[611] It is.

[612] Anyway, let's get to see.

[613] take all the help we can get.

[614] Because at the same time, and this 12 Years of Slave was out, there was also a movie out called Fruitvale Station.

[615] Yes, I saw it.

[616] Oh, I love that.

[617] Devastating.

[618] And for me, it's like, the thing that I felt is at the time is like, 12 years of slave is about, people can still go, oh, that slavery was bad a long time ago.

[619] Right.

[620] Where Fruitvale Station is like, no, that slavery is bad this morning, today, right now.

[621] You know, so for me, we have to talk about it now.

[622] And also, we have to not feel bad about it.

[623] It's just, you should make changes for it, but you can't get caught up in, like the shame spiral and then the defensiveness.

[624] Yes.

[625] So I should be able to go, yes, Tintan Tarentino has some things in these movies that are racist.

[626] But Pulp Fiction's good.

[627] Stay tuned for more live show after this exciting commercial break.

[628] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[629] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[630] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[631] You went to University of Pennsylvania.

[632] Yes, it did.

[633] What were you going to major in?

[634] What was the game plan?

[635] Because I was so deep into martial arts, my major was East Asian Studies.

[636] Fuck, yeah, it was.

[637] Turns out, not a lot of kung fu taught at University of Pennsylvania when you're an East Asian Studies major.

[638] You thought you were going to watch, like, enter the drag.

[639] Yeah.

[640] So I took like a year and a half of, I took like a year and a half of Mandarin.

[641] Oh, yeah.

[642] Can you speak any of it?

[643] I could say some things that a Mandarin speak.

[644] Like, that's not anything you've said.

[645] Right, right.

[646] But I'm not going to do that.

[647] set in San Francisco.

[648] No, you'll get busted.

[649] Yeah, good call.

[650] There are other cities you might be in that I'll be like, I'll come do it there.

[651] Yeah, when you do my mobile show, you can do it.

[652] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[653] I'll do the whole thing in Mandarin.

[654] No, and also it was the thing where there were a lot of kids who grew up speaking Chinese in their house who were kind of taking it for the easy A, which I'm not mad at them about.

[655] And by the way, in my mind, I pictured that was the only people in the class, and then you looking for a Bruce Lee movie.

[656] Yeah, and also I just wasn't motivated because I was like, I think I made a horrible mistake.

[657] But your dad, He was the insurance commissioner of Alabama.

[658] Yes, he was.

[659] He was, right?

[660] And he was also the chairman of Swiss Rhee.

[661] Swiss Rie, yeah.

[662] Yeah, so those are pretty huge accomplishments in the 70s.

[663] Well, no, no, that stuff happened in the 90s when I was sort of like already a person.

[664] Oh, okay, okay.

[665] Like, I grew up with a dad who lived in his mom's house, like in the back room of his mom's house, like half unemployed, like a photographer and a poet and had a tan leather jacket and like big 70s Afro looking like, Dr. Jay on vacation with like a big giant Buick you know and so like he's not cost of being a 10 yeah because he's like all I got to do is this and I'll be doing fine and then when I was like a little older he realized oh wait a minute I'm a loser and he like got a job at the bank is like a 35 year old like junior teller and just worked his way up to when he like got recruited to sell insurance he wasn't a loser first of all he was but he was not a guy who was accomplishing much right he suddenly like the light switch clicked and he was like I got to make some things happen so if you met my dad today you would not know that that was the same guy who's like now like his casual clothes are like polos and dockers and like you know these are my casual loafers you know what I mean but like he was a Miller High Life champagne of beers drinking yeah yeah now he's like I don't like this wine he's that guy okay sure yeah yeah now was he disappointed though when you dropped out oh yeah because he had like it had taken him forever to go through college he he he thought like basically like University Pennsylvania is an Ivy League school so he felt like people go to Ivy League school are set.

[666] So my son is now, yeah, set.

[667] And then a year and a half later, I was like, I think I'm a drop out and go back to Chicago and take some classes in Second City.

[668] And that's what you did?

[669] Yeah, that's what I did.

[670] And how long did you stay in Chicago?

[671] Uh, 91 moved to here 97, yeah.

[672] And what brought you here?

[673] I mean, I started doing comedy in 94.

[674] Chicago's stand -up comedy scene was not that good at the time.

[675] It was sort of the dip with the boom had crashed.

[676] And there was just not a lot of opportunities.

[677] And so I like decided I was going to either move to New York.

[678] York or San Francisco, went to New York, it was just too much.

[679] Yeah, yay, San Francisco.

[680] And moved out here and got like a guest set at the Punchline Comedy Club, even though I had no business getting one.

[681] So I went to the Punchline, got a guest set, which couldn't get a guest set at Chicago Comedy Club.

[682] It was like, oh, apparently here, I'm a star.

[683] Moved out here, not the case.

[684] But the San Francisco comedy scene is just always turning out great comedians.

[685] And so when I got here, like Pat and Oswald had just left, Dave Chappelle would, like, like come and sell out the club, but nobody knew who he was outside of the club.

[686] I would just sit in the back and watch all these people, like, come through.

[687] And I would like, I got to see all these great comedians and sort of people who were on their way up and, like, get better in the club.

[688] Yeah.

[689] I spent a lot of years trying to figure out what my voice was.

[690] I wasn't funny enough just to be a comic who told random jokes.

[691] I had to figure out how to be my version of being a comedian.

[692] And you, how soon in did you become kind of politically oriented in your comedy?

[693] Really, it was like when Barack Obama started running for office.

[694] like suddenly a black guy was in the news every day and the things I was reading were like making me angry and so then I started to like want to talk about it more on stage like that's what I really got like really put in.

[695] You wanted Bob Dole to win?

[696] Yes.

[697] I was so mad that there's a black guy run over president.

[698] What are we come to?

[699] No. And my mom was very political and a militant.

[700] So I had it in my life all the time.

[701] I sort of was like ran away from it but then when that happened I really got like pulled into it.

[702] What would you say is your big break?

[703] You do your one man show in 2007?

[704] I basically went overseas with my friend Kevin Avery to do some shows for troops in Okinawa.

[705] On the USO tour?

[706] No, that's a good version.

[707] This is like a booker who's got some gigs.

[708] Okay.

[709] Like it was sort of like this thing where like it was a local guy who knew a guy and they would just send you over to do gigs on like military bases in Okinawa.

[710] And they needed a 90 minute show.

[711] So me and Kevin were each going to do 45 minutes.

[712] And we were sort of like, we heard it was great and it's great and they're going to treat you first class.

[713] And then something told me to ask somebody who had done it.

[714] so I reached out to Tom Rhodes who had done it he lived in the Bay Area and he's a guy who's played all over the world and I said Tom how was that gig?

[715] He's like that's the worst gig I've ever done I was like if it's bad for him we're gonna die not to break your fantasy of the USO tour but I've done two of those and it's not really the four seasons either aren't they just excited though well yeah yeah they're excited if you go with Bradley Cooper which I did once they're very excited to see him That was my mistake.

[716] You didn't bring Bradley Cooper?

[717] I should have brought Bradley Cooper.

[718] We were just two unfamous black dudes who were like older than all the guys who were there because there's a bunch of privates in the military.

[719] And the first night we were like, I was like, I'll go up first because I want to get it over with.

[720] And Kevin's like, well, I'm going to go up second because I want to see how you do.

[721] And so then I bombed for 45 minutes.

[722] And then Kevin went up after me and we were like, I was like, I think I want to go up first every night so I can just get it over with.

[723] Yeah.

[724] So I came back going after bombing for a week in Okinawa.

[725] Like, is this what I do for a living?

[726] Yeah.

[727] And so then from that, I was like, well, what would I do if I was famous?

[728] And I was like, I would have a show that was like the daily show, but about racism in America.

[729] And so I couldn't do that, but I rented the Shelton Theater, which is right across town, and started with a projector doing PowerPoint and telling longer stories and jokes.

[730] The first night, Melissa, who was my girlfriend at the time, was holding the projector on her lap as it heated up, you know.

[731] Did she get a little burn?

[732] Got a little burn.

[733] So, and then that very quickly, like the media and local media started talking about.

[734] me, and then, like, a few years later, Chris Rock saw me, and that ended up being the big, the official big place.

[735] He came to the show.

[736] Yeah, I did the show in New York.

[737] I knew a guy who said, Chris Rock, I told him about you, and he's looked you up on the internet and thinks you're funny, but I didn't know he was going to show up one night.

[738] I think somebody, I think maybe somebody knew he might be there, but nobody told me, which I'm happy about, but I did the show at UCB in New York.

[739] It was great.

[740] It was a fun show.

[741] It was one of the shows.

[742] You're like, man, I really knew what I'm doing.

[743] I walked backstage, and then suddenly, like, my manager at the time, walks back with this look on her face like she'd seen a ghost.

[744] And I'm like, what's wrong with her?

[745] And then behind her is Chris Rock.

[746] And I realized, oh, she's seen the ghost of Chris Rock.

[747] Because he's that famous.

[748] Like, even if you famous people, he's an extra level.

[749] He is, yeah.

[750] And so he floats backstage.

[751] And suddenly we're, like, talking for a few minutes.

[752] And he was like, where do you live?

[753] I was like, San Francisco, move.

[754] And Melissa was pregnant at the time.

[755] I'm like, I think we're kind of embedded for the time being.

[756] And then after that, he called me like a couple months later.

[757] and basically from that call, he helped me get my first TV show totally biased.

[758] On FX.

[759] And that, how does that, how do you end up on CNN?

[760] Based on that show, I have to imagine.

[761] Yeah, that show, like, people paid attention to it because Chris was producing it.

[762] And we had a couple things that worked, but, like, it has never clicked, and then it got canceled.

[763] But it was this thing where suddenly I was taking all these general meetings.

[764] And they think you're the wrong guy.

[765] Did that happen to you?

[766] No, what?

[767] Like, when Punk came out, came out, when Punk come to doubt, I started getting meetings.

[768] at studios and I would say 70 % of the meetings the guy would be like I don't know how you guys stay alive doing those stunts didn't you get shot with a bulletproof vest on and then I'm like that's Johnny Knoxville and I wasn't on jackass but this seems to be going well so yeah I'm like yeah fuck I'm lucky to be sitting here you got any movie rolls for me that didn't happen but I have taken many pictures where at the end of the picture, I was like, oh, they think I'm Questlove.

[769] Many, many, many, many, many.

[770] Many people are showing pictures of me going, we met the drummer from the roots, and their friends are going, oh my God, Phil, you're a racist.

[771] Many, many, many.

[772] When you go in there, do you pitch that show to a bunch of places?

[773] No, this is the thing, the first two things that have happened in my career, after years and years of struggling and like being in black box theaters and comedy clubs and nobody, whatever, and I suck and I'm trying get better.

[774] Like the first two shows, Chris sold totally biased at lunch with like the head of FX.

[775] I wasn't even there.

[776] Right, of course.

[777] So this company, all three media, had sold CNN a pilot for this show that would be with a starring a black comedian for this travel show, documentary series.

[778] Nobody was attached to it and they were looking for somebody.

[779] So when I met with CNN, they were like, maybe you could do this thing.

[780] So I was like, I don't know, maybe.

[781] And then I ended up doing it.

[782] But yeah, so I didn't have to like pitch it.

[783] So the first episode, if you guys haven't seen it you must watch it you go and you meet with the KKK a couple different branches yeah different clans of the clan yeah I talk about the clan kind of a lot Monica hates it because now let me first acknowledge I'm in a position to be able to laugh at it because I'm not the victim of it so I just let me own that really quick with that said it seems like a bunch of fucking losers playing Dungeons and Dragons like their names just keep getting longer and longer like theirs was like the Christian crucifix brothers of the Klu Klux Klan chapter, you know, it was like 25 titles, you know, 110 pounds, no teeth.

[784] They handed me business cards.

[785] They're all like the royal knights of the honorable.

[786] Yeah, but because they're making it up because there's not a central organization that's approving your clan membership.

[787] Right, right.

[788] It's more like a club team, you know what do we name our club team?

[789] Yeah, like the Toledo Mudhams.

[790] Yeah, exactly.

[791] It's not the pros.

[792] It's not the pros of racism.

[793] It's the semi -professional racists.

[794] So, yeah, so when we got the show, they were like, it's going to be a show about a black guy traveling around to, like, places he shouldn't go.

[795] And they were, like, pitching, like, the rodeo, country club, like the golf club.

[796] And I was just like, what about the clan?

[797] Yeah, if we're going to do this, let's do it.

[798] At the time, I knew I needed the job.

[799] But I also knew that if it didn't go, at least I would have a good story to tell.

[800] Yeah, yeah.

[801] About the time I filmed with the clan.

[802] After FX, because there was a lot of stuff with FX where I felt like I wasn't allowed to do what I wanted to do.

[803] There was people who were sort of getting in the way of that.

[804] Because I was new, people put me in the position of mediating my voice.

[805] And I allowed them to because I was new.

[806] And I assumed that people just have my best interest at heart.

[807] And in show business, as you know, they don't.

[808] And I heard you talking about this on Trevor Noah.

[809] The first season was just all white people as well, right?

[810] Yeah, all the crew was white.

[811] Like, there were maybe a couple PAs of color, but all the decisions.

[812] makers were white dudes.

[813] And when we did the Klan episode, they were like, well, the Klan said we can only bring white people.

[814] And I was like, why are we letting the Klan decide?

[815] Uh -huh, yeah.

[816] Like, that's weird, right?

[817] But then also we shot seven more episodes and it never changed.

[818] And so every season I had to like really like, ba -da -p -pap -pah, we need to hire black people and women and Latinos.

[819] How about some South Asians?

[820] And they're like, you can hire one.

[821] So, no, like, the crew photo from the last season to the first season was very different because I was, like, actively speeding the drum.

[822] Now, what was your, um, out of 10?

[823] 10 is like you're going to jump out of an airplane without a parachute.

[824] Zero is a real soft Swedish massage.

[825] Were you actually fearful or were you like, oh, these are bozos?

[826] But bozos can have guns.

[827] Exactly.

[828] Well, in fact, they did have guns when you showed up.

[829] We told them no guns.

[830] They had a gun.

[831] The security guard, who was Mexican -Mexican.

[832] American, but they told the clan he was white, which was funny because he clearly was not a white guy, but the plan was like, sounds good to me. He's like, he's clearly...

[833] They put him in a Garthbrook t -shirt.

[834] He's a shade lighter than me. They didn't know he was security.

[835] They thought he was a PA, but he was like, don't worry, that guy doesn't know how to use that gun, you'll be fine.

[836] I was like, that doesn't give me confidence.

[837] Right, right.

[838] Uh -oh, like he gomer piles it or whatever.

[839] Sure, sure.

[840] Yeah, I was afraid because I don't know what their plan was.

[841] It could have been good reputation.

[842] Yeah, it was a great opportunity for them to do something.

[843] So when we showed up, I got out of the car and it's in the episode, I walk out and see this like phalanx of Klan and like a cross and I have to walk like about 100 yards to get to them.

[844] And in the episode, I go, oh shit, this isn't a good idea.

[845] I wasn't joking.

[846] I actually was saying out loud.

[847] I didn't realize that it was out loud until I saw it.

[848] Like, oh, shit, this was not a good idea.

[849] I mean, it was the way I say it is like my first day on the job, I met a bunch of crew I'd never met before.

[850] First day on the job jitters.

[851] And I went to a cross burning.

[852] Right.

[853] So it's like your first day at the new office After work, we're going to burn a cross.

[854] There's so many things to unpack about that cross -burning.

[855] They're super Christian.

[856] I mean, depending on your definition of Christianity, yes.

[857] I'm only going under self -declaration of being Christian.

[858] Yeah, they declared themselves Christian, yes.

[859] It's just weird that they burn the big symbol.

[860] Whatever, let's not get bogged down in that.

[861] I guess...

[862] Well, they call it a cross -lighting.

[863] I'm not going to ask you to defend the logic of the KKK.

[864] I just realized I was...

[865] Thank you.

[866] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[867] I feel like we just turned a corner.

[868] I do think we have a similar stance on this, and people did accuse you of platforming those people, right?

[869] Yeah, I get this all time about, like, are you giving people a platform?

[870] I mean, first of all, a lot of this language has come up since Trump's election, the whole idea of you giving people a platform.

[871] For me, here's the thing.

[872] I respect the fact that if you're watching me talk to the Klan and you're a person who actually knows history, that it doesn't mean anything to you.

[873] Because you're like, of course I know the Klan exists.

[874] And so a lot of black people are like, why are you putting the Klan on TV?

[875] I know the Klan exists.

[876] But at the same time, I'm getting all this information, all this sort of feedback from white people and other people were like, I had no idea.

[877] And so every episode, there's sort of two different conversation, the in -house conversation and the outhouse conversation.

[878] Well, and again, you watch America History X. Ed Norton looks pretty sweet there at the beginning.

[879] Yeah.

[880] He's jacked.

[881] Looks great in boxer shorts.

[882] You're like, looks pretty good.

[883] Yeah.

[884] Then you see the real -life clan.

[885] You're like, where's the Ed Norton on steroids?

[886] Oh, Ed Norton.

[887] don't join this organization because it's a bunch of bozos that didn't know Dungeons and Dragons was a game they could have just played.

[888] But that in this city in particular, and I find myself, and Monica gets mad at me because, again, I end up being a little more vocally critical of the left because I'm on the left.

[889] And I feel like lecturing to the right will never get me anything.

[890] I don't think it's my job to steer the right.

[891] I don't think I have any sway over the right.

[892] I do think I have a monocum of sway over some people that were kind of already on a similar page.

[893] And so I feel like, let's get both motherfuckers on a podium and see who's got the best idea.

[894] That's how we decide what the best ideas.

[895] But this city in particular, Berkeley in particular, has been, Berkeley's awesome.

[896] I will say only school better than UCLA.

[897] I'm nervous about them deciding which people can be heard and which people can't.

[898] But you have a slightly different opinion.

[899] So I want you to educate me on why.

[900] You can only choose if you're educated by what I say.

[901] I cannot educate you myself.

[902] I think you just kung fu'd me Was that a line of David Caronine?

[903] No, it's more Morpheus from the Matrix Sort of kung fu adjacent So I think when we talk about Berkeley We're talking about like Berkeley Like not letting certain people speak There's not like this sort of like It's this or this So Berkeley which I lived in Berkeley at the time Was a school that was like When this person comes Violence comes with this person Right Whether this person is bringing it themselves or whether this person is encouraging it.

[904] Like, Ann Coulter, apparently spoke with Berkeley before and nothing happened.

[905] But when it became a thing where Ann Coulter was sort of like playing to this all right thing, well, now this is different.

[906] And so for me, it's like, at the end of the day, it's a school that has students that they don't want to die.

[907] Yeah.

[908] And so it's not like it's just a stage in a blank place.

[909] It's a public institution.

[910] It's a school that has to also figure out, like, well, when these people come, we have to pay for all this resources, and we have to get more cops.

[911] and you know what?

[912] Why don't we just like that this happens?

[913] So for me, like, people act like these schools are just sort of these blank canvases when every school is there for a different reason.

[914] At the end of the day, they're there to educate their students.

[915] There's a dude who teaches at Berkeley in the law school, John Wu, who wrote the George W. Bush torture memos.

[916] He teaches there right now.

[917] But guess what?

[918] There's not a riot breaking out every time he gives a lecture.

[919] So he teaches there.

[920] So we're not talking about just different voices.

[921] I mean, because all these schools have more conservatives than you realize.

[922] It's about the fact that There's a certain brand of things that's being identified as conservatism that is actually much more trolling than it is actually, like, putting forth conservative ideas.

[923] Yeah.

[924] I mean, I'm of the opinion, though, that both parties have pretty much been hijacked by about 5 % on the far ends of the shoulders to some degree.

[925] Like, the shit that you're reading on Twitter that then becomes a headline, that's not any of us.

[926] Who's hijacked?

[927] I mean, I'm not asking in a leading way, but which voices are you talking about have hijacked the left, I guess is my question.

[928] The people that would say you're platforming and aiding in spreading the clan.

[929] That tweet's going to get picked up.

[930] People want to write that about your show more than they want to write what 97 % of people said about your show.

[931] It's just the nature of click media that whatever is the craziest proposition is the one that's going to get traction.

[932] But I feel like those voices aren't voices that are leading the left.

[933] Those voices are people who are pursuing clicks.

[934] Like I don't see those voices as being actually the leadership of the left.

[935] I see those as being media voices and people who are like, oh, I know how to frame this in a way that will get me clicks.

[936] The people who are leading the left are the people in power who have the money, who don't actually have an interest, I don't think, a lot of times in progressive change.

[937] They have an interest in keeping their jobs.

[938] Okay.

[939] Now, having the show, how has that changed your life?

[940] So, I mean, here's the thing that's great.

[941] Because at CNN, it's sort of a ubiquitous network.

[942] I didn't grow up as a kid watching Saturday Night Live going, I hoped they wanted to get a show on the cable news network.

[943] You didn't?

[944] I didn't.

[945] And so when I first came to me with the idea of, like, doing this pilot on CNN, the only thing that made it make sense to me was that there were shows like Bourdain and Mike Rowe and Morgan Spurlock and Lisa Ling, but I still was like, it's sort of weird that I'd be on CNN.

[946] But the great thing about it is even if you hate it, you end up being in an airport looking at it.

[947] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[948] That's the most unintentional viewing that I do.

[949] I probably consume so much CNN that I never intended to, but I do, and I love it.

[950] Being in a place where you're like, oh, it's all right.

[951] So I've seen people send me pictures on Twitter of people like standing at gates at airport.

[952] like looking at me talking to the clan like what is so it's a big megaphone to speak from which I appreciate I feel like every season the show gets sharper and smarter and people resonate with it and I hear from people all the time that like families watch it together teachers want to use it in their classes I didn't intend it for that but people really connect deeply with the ideas and it's also this great thing that I feel like I don't know that I could have a lot of other jobs in show business which is why I'm not trying to get in a Quentin Tarantino movie okay because I just don't think I don't think I'm an actor I'm not an actor I see it but go ahead So I think, like, this is basically the only job of being on TV regularly that I could have.

[953] But you live in a perfect era where niche is a career now, which is, like, the greatest thing ever.

[954] No, I don't think I would have the career I had, if not for being in the 21st century.

[955] I'm really proud of the work I do.

[956] I'm proud of the fact that my kids know about the work I do, even though they don't watch the show because they're pretty bored by it.

[957] But what are they, they're one, three, what do you say, one?

[958] Eight, four and a half, and almost one.

[959] Okay.

[960] And all girls.

[961] We only make girls.

[962] We're in the all girls club.

[963] They're the best.

[964] I thank my stars every day that I don't have any boys.

[965] I don't need to get punched out when someone's 18.

[966] Yeah, you would just prefer to be quietly shunned.

[967] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[968] You wrote in your book that you are grateful that you don't have boys because there's a conversation that you would not want to have with boys.

[969] So when I said I was grateful I didn't have a boy, was just the idea of having to have the conversation that my mom had with me when I was like 10.

[970] Now that you're 10 and you're a black boy, you're basically a man. Yes, so this is super fascinating.

[971] I'm interested in like, what is the undercurrent of a lot of the racism?

[972] Again, as you pointed out, there's so many layers to it.

[973] But I definitely think one of the things is that many white men feel amasculated by black men.

[974] There's a weird masculinity, thing going on.

[975] And it all goes back to slavery and the fact that black people had to be seen as less than human in order for you to make them into slaves because you are a Christian.

[976] Yeah, they have to be the ultimate other.

[977] And at the same time, you need them to be big and strong and strapping.

[978] And you need them to do work.

[979] So you need a 10 -year -old to be working in the field, even though he's 10 because he's not a kid.

[980] He's a piece of farm machinery.

[981] And at the same time, then it becomes this thing about while these people are like doing all this physical labor and And there's, oh, my God, and my wife.

[982] And suddenly it becomes this thing where it's like, I can't treat you like a person because you need to be a piece of farm equipment.

[983] And so then it becomes about emasculating this big, strong, physical person and making the women feel like their property because you can't connect to their humanity.

[984] And then that goes through Reconstruction and Jim Crow and Black Lives Matter and the cats in the cradle and the silver spoon.

[985] And a little boy blue and the man on the moon.

[986] So it's all...

[987] When you're coming home, Kumau, I don't know when.

[988] We'll get together.

[989] Then, Dad.

[990] We'll have a good time then.

[991] So your mother set you down, she said, listen, you're 10 years old, but that's not how you're Well, what happened?

[992] The thing I remember is we went to, we were in Boston, where the racism is, as we talked about earlier.

[993] It's authentic.

[994] You can taste it in the sauce.

[995] Serapy and tangy.

[996] We go to like the kind of drugstore where I would go to buy, like, a cracked magazine and a candy bar.

[997] I'm at the age where I live close enough where I might go out by myself to do it.

[998] And so she's like, when you come into a store like this, You have to make sure that you only touch things that you're going to actually buy.

[999] You don't shop with your hands.

[1000] You don't pick things up and put them down.

[1001] You have to only touch things you actually want.

[1002] And do you see that guy over there who's looking at us?

[1003] That's the store detective.

[1004] He's going to follow you around the store.

[1005] He's looking over like, me?

[1006] I just happen to be standing here.

[1007] He's going to follow you around the store.

[1008] Be aware of where your hands are at all times.

[1009] And when you walk out, make sure you've paid for everything, don't accidentally take something because it could end up badly for you.

[1010] Right.

[1011] Right.

[1012] And what is your, when you hear that, do you think, well, this is bullshit, or do you go, oh, this is just life on planet Earth?

[1013] I think there's a little bit like, my mom's thinking a big deal out of nothing.

[1014] And then when I was 15, I was literally, like, thrown out of a record store because I'd been hanging out too long.

[1015] And they just were, like, tired of seeing me in there.

[1016] Well, in their defense, you also were buying a Creed album.

[1017] That's true.

[1018] That's true.

[1019] And I was singing it while I bought it.

[1020] So, like, and then there's been things in my life where you go, no, my mom knew what she was talking about, and I'm glad she told me, they sucked, but I had been prepared for them.

[1021] I have daughters.

[1022] I can already see this conversation coming down the road, which is I don't ever want to be victim blaming, right?

[1023] I don't want to insinuate that it's their responsibility to not have a guy rape them.

[1024] It's the dude's responsibility to act like a human.

[1025] With all that said, I also need to tell them the reality of the world we live in.

[1026] Like, I read Missoula by Krakauer, studies like 50 cases at Missoula.

[1027] Every one of those cases is everyone's blackout drunk.

[1028] Like that's a reality of it.

[1029] Like I need to say that to my daughters.

[1030] Like, hey, unfortunately, this is the world we live in.

[1031] And unfortunately, this often happens when everyone's fucking annihilated.

[1032] And yet that's a weird conversation to have with my daughters.

[1033] Because, again, I don't think it's their responsibility to not.

[1034] get raped.

[1035] I think it's guys' responsibility not to rape girls.

[1036] And yet I need to educate them on the world they live in.

[1037] But I think those things go hand in hand.

[1038] Just like you want to teach your kids how to read.

[1039] You don't want your kid walking out into the world like not knowing how to read because reading helps you get through the world.

[1040] I feel like if this is my daughter's like I want to teach them how to be better, best armed to navigate the world.

[1041] Right.

[1042] And part of that is like making sure that you try to put yourself in the best position to succeed at all times.

[1043] Here's how you do an arm bar.

[1044] Keep a knife in your shoe.

[1045] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1046] You know what I mean?

[1047] Like, you know, your keys can go up through your knuckles and, you know, here's how you throw a punch.

[1048] I feel like all these things.

[1049] And also when bad things happen, it's not your fault that the world can do bad things.

[1050] You know what I mean?

[1051] So I think those things can exist at the same time.

[1052] That's the thing about raising the boy that I'm like, and here's the thing, I just don't feel like I was I don't know how to do the boy thing.

[1053] Like, I didn't grow up, I'm not the typical.

[1054] I can't tell you all the boy shit because I don't know all the boy shit.

[1055] Yeah.

[1056] Whereas I know enough of the boy shit to tell my daughter's like, here's the boy's You know what I mean?

[1057] They will fuck Jello, so bet your ass they'll fuck you.

[1058] Yes.

[1059] I feel like I'm, I like being a double agent and turning against the dudes.

[1060] Camount doesn't know I fucked Jello.

[1061] But anyways, I did fuck Jello and I was honest about it.

[1062] But anyway.

[1063] Good for you.

[1064] Yeah.

[1065] Yeah, I didn't want to leave you behind.

[1066] I appreciate that.

[1067] It didn't work out.

[1068] It turned to Kool -Aid immediately.

[1069] Then I got a rash and thought I had a venereal disease.

[1070] I went to a free clinic and got a boner in the woman's face.

[1071] when she told me what flavor jello she liked.

[1072] You're all caught up.

[1073] Those are the cliff notes.

[1074] Sorry, Janet.

[1075] I know your mom's still here.

[1076] That's actually what I want to talk about last.

[1077] Jello and rashes?

[1078] What your favorite jello flavor is?

[1079] To have sex with it?

[1080] Yeah.

[1081] Kiwi?

[1082] Stay tuned for more live show after this exciting commercial break.

[1083] What's up, guys?

[1084] Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest okay every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation and I don't mean just friends I mean the likes of Amy Polar Kell Mitchell Vivica Fox the list goes on so follow watch and listen to baby this is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast we've all been there turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[1085] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[1086] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[1087] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[1088] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[1089] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[1090] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[1091] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[1092] So you brought your sweet mother, Janet, with you tonight, and I could tell immediately you bring Janet a lot of places.

[1093] Oh, yeah.

[1094] We moved her out here a little while ago because she was living in Bloomington, Indiana.

[1095] I mean, this is the thing if the show has changed my life, I'm able to move my mom closer to her grandkids.

[1096] That's the important thing.

[1097] So I was raised by a single mother as well.

[1098] My mom will be with me tomorrow night in Seattle.

[1099] Yeah.

[1100] And she lived with me for four months this year.

[1101] And she's my number one girl.

[1102] Yep.

[1103] And I attribute anything that's good in me to my mom.

[1104] And the more I embrace the stuff, she taught me the better I do in life and the more people like me and love me. what did you get from mom and are you grateful for that?

[1105] I'm not grateful for my mom in any way.

[1106] Wait, should we ask her to step out for this?

[1107] I mean, I'm glad you brought this up.

[1108] I've been trying to tell her for a long time.

[1109] No, my mom, certainly, when I was a kid, I was very comfortable saying that my mom was my best friend.

[1110] Even at an age where it felt like, that's weird.

[1111] Take her to prom.

[1112] It wasn't inappropriate.

[1113] Have your daughters asked you to marry them yet?

[1114] No, they haven't asked me to marry them yet.

[1115] I guess your relationship isn't as good as mine is with my daughters.

[1116] Can you explain to me how to get my daughters to propose to me, Dax?

[1117] My six -year -old, when she was three, we went to a wedding and we were walking up and the people were getting married.

[1118] She said that she wanted to marry me. That was great.

[1119] But my four -year -old, my youngest, topped that the other night because she said, Daddy, will you divorce mommy and marry me?

[1120] And I was like, yes.

[1121] Yes.

[1122] As soon as she records Frozen Three and we get that money.

[1123] We just need one more frozen, and you and I are out of here.

[1124] I just picture your wife coming home from like, well, that was a wrap on Frozen 3, and you have all your bags packed.

[1125] Oh, it's a wrap on more than Frozen 3, honey.

[1126] Yeah, so I guess, well, so you would go, are you leaving?

[1127] And I would go, let me answer that question with another question.

[1128] Is there going to be a Frozen 4?

[1129] So yeah, my mom was very much encouraging me to dance to the beat of your own drummer.

[1130] She just sort of always let me believe that things were going to work out if I just sort of pursued the things I wanted to pursue.

[1131] She also wanted me to learn how to read.

[1132] But like, when I dropped out of college, there wasn't a sense of like, oh no, where my dad was like, well, you don't fucked up now, boy.

[1133] Whereas my mom was like, she actually signed me up for classes at Second City because she was like, you always wanted to do this, so let's do this.

[1134] So you know what I mean?

[1135] So I don't think she thought necessarily where I am now, but she did think you're smart enough that you'll figure something out.

[1136] It's important to me that you pursue things you want to pursue because I think she'd spend a lot of her time in her early life, like not pursuing things she wanted to pursue and sort of doing what she felt like she had to do.

[1137] Like when she was like, she grew up in Indianapolis and my mom is old enough where it's separate but unequal and all sorts of things that were awful.

[1138] So she had to do a lot of things just to get by.

[1139] That by the time she had me later in life at that point, she was 35, which now was like prime kid years.

[1140] but she's like made a choice to have a kid and was like very clear about the fact that I want you to be able to do whatever you want to do and not without pressure from me because she felt she had a lot of pressure from her family to do the right thing all the time yeah she will totally appreciate that applause from now I can tell one other thing we have in common my mom she's a gangster and I am so grateful to her in so many ways at the top of that list is I then was attracted to people who were also opinionated and strong and motivated and driven and all these things.

[1141] And so I ended up with a carbon copy of my mom, but, you know, younger and prettier and I'm attracted to her sexually.

[1142] I'm weirdly grateful that that was the woman that I first loved and that that's who I ended up as a partner.

[1143] And did you find that that kind of drove who you found.

[1144] Yeah, I think my mom's greatest compliment to anyone is that you remind me of me. so my mom told Melissa like you remind me of me now nobody's wife wants to be thought of as a replacement for their husband's mom you know what I mean but but she gets the idea that Melissa is certainly strong will she's accomplished she's when we started dating we were like thought of as like sort of a power couple but now because of fame and nonsense the people see her often as like oh you're the white wife uh huh do we not cover that my wife's white So Melissa is like she's got a PhD in critical dance study She's got an MFA in experimental dance choreography You know she teaches at USF here in the city She's a writer for the San Francisco Chronicle So she's doing a lot of things Well I think your wife and I think your lovely mother And I think my mom and I think all the women that have helped make us not pieces of shit It's very easy for us to be that way Yes to remind us when we're leaning into pieces of shit territory and going like That's your do oh you okay okay We have one thread that is not up and tied, why don't you have a driver's license?

[1145] Oh my god.

[1146] I just, I've been thinking about it all night.

[1147] It is suspicious.

[1148] Melissa is so excited right now.

[1149] This is for you, Melissa.

[1150] That's her, is that you, she's over there, she's cheering now.

[1151] I had a driver's license when I turned 16.

[1152] I lived in Chicago.

[1153] My friends all had driver's licenses.

[1154] As we covered earlier, I did not date a lot, so I didn't have to take ladies out.

[1155] Okay, yes.

[1156] So I just - You had to go get that Nintendo you were borrowing.

[1157] I walked to the video store.

[1158] Okay, okay.

[1159] Both, uphill both ways.

[1160] And I just, and so my driver's license lapsed.

[1161] I never got comfortable driving.

[1162] I moved out to the Bay Area.

[1163] I don't know if you've heard of Muni and Bart, but we have those things out here.

[1164] Heard of it.

[1165] And then my license expired, and I just started getting state IDs, and then I never really got comfortable behind the wheel.

[1166] And then people are always like, there's no bus that goes over there.

[1167] Like, whenever you're like trying to go someplace, they're like, and I'm like, do you realize that poor people have to go clean all these houses?

[1168] There's always a bus line that goes somewhere.

[1169] it's not always convenient.

[1170] I would like land in L .A. I would like take the train to Union Station because Melissa was at UC Riverside.

[1171] I take the train to union station.

[1172] I would take the subway in L .A. Then transfer to a bus in L .A. to then go have meetings, general meetings.

[1173] And turn around and go directly back because you only had a week off.

[1174] Exactly, yes.

[1175] Took you three and a half days.

[1176] Did you need to be validated?

[1177] No, I still got my transfer.

[1178] You know, so I'm a big fan of public transportation.

[1179] All right.

[1180] But it also, it's like one of the things that me and most are not going to talk after the show about my driver's license because you guys kept bringing it up.

[1181] So thanks for that.

[1182] It's never too late.

[1183] I don't really want one.

[1184] We'd like to see you get it.

[1185] But it doesn't have to happen tonight.

[1186] Kamal Bell, thank you so much for being our guests.

[1187] Thank you.

[1188] Thank you for having me. It was huge of you.

[1189] Thank you, Monica.

[1190] Monica Padman, my soulmate.

[1191] You guys, such an honor to be here in front of you all.

[1192] Thank you so much.

[1193] Before the fact check, we want you to check out some music from Matt Nathanson, who is a part of the live experience in San Francisco, and we were delighted to have him.

[1194] We want you to hear one of his songs that he played for us.

[1195] He's performing, used to be, from his album, Sings His Sad Heart, Out Everywhere Now.

[1196] Still got the same own number.

[1197] Still drive the car you hate.

[1198] I'm still fighting with my father.

[1199] Still staying out too late.

[1200] I still leave the back door open I still let the dog escape Maybe I'm deep down hoping You come back to yell at me like you used to do And you were around Just a stubborn fool I was living in the past We were young and we were free All your friends are friends with me Swimming in our clothes when the beach was closed midnight on New Year's Eve.

[1201] And if you're having trouble, baby, holding on the memories.

[1202] Got a king -sized bed and a PhD in the way it used to be.

[1203] I got a king -size bed and a PhD in the way it used to be.

[1204] You write your movie, your autobiography, and you can't reach the sweetest details.

[1205] Feel free to call on me. And write how I made you shake.

[1206] The ground underneath I shook The devil is in the details He and I got on real good like we used to do And you were right, I'm just a stubborn fool I was living in the past When we were young and we were free And all your friends are friends with me Swimming in our clothes when the beach was closed Midnight on New Year's Eve And if you're having trouble, baby, holding on the memory.

[1207] Got a king -sized bed and a PhD in the way it used to be.

[1208] I got a king -sized bed and a PhD in the way it used to be.

[1209] It's ancient history, but if you're having trouble, baby, holding on the memory, I've got a king -sized bed and a PhD in the way it used to be.

[1210] Because we were young and we were free And all your friends were friends with me Swimming in our clothes When the beach was closed Midnight on New Year's Eve And if you're having trouble Baby holding on the memories We got a king -sized bed And a Ph .D. in the way it used to be Just we were young swimming in our clothes When the beach was closed Midnight on New Year's Eve And if you're having trouble baby holding on to memories I got a king size bed and a PhD in the way it used to be Yeah, I got a king size bed and a PhD in the way it used to be And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1211] Fact check, back again.

[1212] Check it, direct it, let's begin.

[1213] I want to say before we launch into this, because usually we have an intro, Monica.

[1214] We sure do.

[1215] And I would feel terrible if I didn't say what W. Kamal Bell had out in the marketplace.

[1216] He has a great book, The Awkward Thoughts, W. Kamau Bell.

[1217] He also has a Netflix special, Private School Negro.

[1218] Check that on Netflix.

[1219] And then his CNN show, which we talked about a lot during the podcast, United Shades of America, season four.

[1220] It was on CNN.

[1221] It just ended, unfortunately.

[1222] can check it out we bought it on iTunes you know what we wanted to consume a bunch yeah it's a really fun show yeah such a unique perspective yeah yeah the way interacts with people it's very disarming yeah liked him a lot we like them very tall gentlemen tallest I've ever seen well now that's I'm gonna check that fact okay he's tall as jazz come out is six four according to his book that's right and Jess is six six so two tall inches taller but I actually think Jess is six five because we've had this conversation recently where he says he feels like he's 6 -6.

[1223] We think he's 6 -6.

[1224] But when he measures at the doctor, it's 6 -5.

[1225] Oh, okay.

[1226] Well, that's pretty definitive when you measure at the doctor.

[1227] Yeah.

[1228] But also Conan O 'Brien was in here, and he is 6 -6.

[1229] Kamal's got like four inches of hair, too.

[1230] Oh, good, good point.

[1231] Maybe, oh, this goes into uranize debate about your height.

[1232] Sure, but it's the opposite because he has the same color hair as me. It is.

[1233] It's really opposite.

[1234] Maybe if yours was jagged at the top, if it made a jagged outline, and shot straight up yours goes back it lays flat against the no it has a lot of volume how dare you well it does have volume but it does follow the contour of your parietals and you don't do your bangs like if you blew your bangs out like when i was in eighth grade you might look five five although i think that would just be out like a visor no no no you got to go up you got to go real high up in there i'll show you some pictures of randy hammond on my earbook oh yeah she's your hottest girlfriend.

[1235] I don't want to rank people's hotness.

[1236] It's all you do.

[1237] It's all you do is rank people's hotness.

[1238] You are always calling people a 10 or a 2 or something like that.

[1239] Hold on, hold on.

[1240] I only say people's number if it's really high.

[1241] I only do that.

[1242] So I only keep it positive.

[1243] I've never come out here and call someone a 2.

[1244] Maybe.

[1245] I'll leave it to the listeners to tell me because I can't remember.

[1246] Who could remember?

[1247] But they might.

[1248] I want to just get excited for a second.

[1249] Can I now see that you found your other flip -flop or whatever that's called?

[1250] Slipper, sandal?

[1251] It's a slip -slop.

[1252] But I found one of them in errant sandal on the deck as we were leaving the house from our vacation.

[1253] Yeah, we're back in Los Angeles, everybody.

[1254] A mix.

[1255] And it's sad.

[1256] Well, it's a mix for me. I do love this studio.

[1257] I love being in this space.

[1258] I'm already excited just to be in here again.

[1259] That's A. B, I hate it here.

[1260] want to be back on that lake i hate it here yeah it's the worst everyone in ellisdinks in here every so yes we're back what a trip we had what a trip it's a real eden over there on western lake michigan coastline i wonder if people like hearing about our vacation or if they're like okay we get it you had a fun vacation probably the latter yeah i think maybe yeah but isn't in a form of expressing gratitude i'm expressing gratitude of course i feel very lucky to have been on that trip with friends and In the Eden when we were on the beach.

[1261] You said I don't like anything.

[1262] You've said it on here as well.

[1263] And I've already said on here after you said that that I don't find that to be helpful to me to hear.

[1264] And then you said it again because you called me a sex chinchilla.

[1265] Right.

[1266] A couple times.

[1267] Yes, that's right.

[1268] A couple times.

[1269] And I said, hey, I don't like that.

[1270] And you said, you don't like anything.

[1271] No, that's not.

[1272] exactly what happened okay what happened we started listing many many animals that you could be we were all sitting around in a circle doing what our animal totems could be so we're guessing in every guess that we had for you you didn't like no yeah and i said she didn't she's not going to like any of the animals we compare her to that's totally not what happened at all oh that's how i remember it what animals did people say that i didn't like um i said a uh i don't know i said a fox at one point.

[1273] No, I said, we're just going to have different, I guess.

[1274] I mean, I said a fox, but then you said, oh, yeah, fox makes sense.

[1275] That's all we said about me being an animal, totem animal.

[1276] I think you were telling the story about sex chinchilla.

[1277] You told the story, and then we were done telling that story, and then we were playing cards, and then you said it, you called me a sex chinchilla, and then I said, I don't like that, and you said, you don't like anything.

[1278] And then I said, well, I don't like that.

[1279] That and then you laughed and that was funny.

[1280] That was appropriate time to laugh.

[1281] But it keeps coming up and it bothers me. Okay.

[1282] I'm sorry.

[1283] It feels like no matter what animal we guess for you, it's a pass.

[1284] Okay.

[1285] But you can't even tell me one of the animals that you're talking about.

[1286] I said a bunch of animals.

[1287] I said koala bear.

[1288] I said.

[1289] That's great.

[1290] never have said, ew, I don't like that.

[1291] That's totally fine.

[1292] To be a koala bear?

[1293] Yeah, is that bad?

[1294] No, I don't know.

[1295] I don't think it's bad.

[1296] No one called me, you're very, you are mistaken.

[1297] I think I would have been interested to hear all the animals.

[1298] People thought I was, no one said anything after we talked about fox.

[1299] And then section show was its own thing.

[1300] It was a standalone.

[1301] Yeah.

[1302] Wasn't it the exact same time during the same conversation?

[1303] It was during the same day, but it was not the same conversation.

[1304] And it's fine.

[1305] I, I just want to know, I mean, I don't think you were talking about just the animals.

[1306] Well, my real opinion of you is no matter what animal I'll say, you'll try to think of the worst thing about that.

[1307] Like, I don't understand your huge objection to sex chinchilla.

[1308] I really don't.

[1309] It's a super cute animal, and you're disgusted by it.

[1310] So I think that you're interpreting no matter what I say as a negative.

[1311] and I do think that.

[1312] I think you're trying to find a negative in whatever animal.

[1313] But are you talking about specifically an animal conversation?

[1314] Are you talking about in life?

[1315] I'm talking about all things where your assessment of your physical attraction is potentially in the argument.

[1316] I think you're completely delusional about how you look.

[1317] And then I think when we talk about anything related to how you look that you're trying to turn it into something negative.

[1318] and I do have that opinion of you.

[1319] Okay, that's fine that you have that opinion and that could be true.

[1320] That probably is true.

[1321] But I guess my question is if you know that something is going to trigger me feeling bad about myself, why would you say it?

[1322] Well, I often don't know until you react and then I'm reminded of it.

[1323] When I'm just calling you a sex panther or a sex chinchiller, anything i'm not okay well sex panther is not the same thing as a sex chinchilla that was a part of the original conversation on the podcast no one called me a sex panther and i got upset about that well i'd have to go back and listen but i do believe that i said what if matt and ben called you a sex panther sex chinchilla can you help me you know i know you're sitting over there and you know sex panther was brought up from anchorman right about me no it was sex giraffe and then sex chinchilla came up for you yeah Mm -hmm.

[1324] No good animal that people want to be considered was brought up for me, which is fine.

[1325] Well, I'd have to go back and listen.

[1326] I'm not going to concede to that.

[1327] I think we tried on a bunch of names.

[1328] Okay.

[1329] And then I think sex chinchilla was the funniest and it hurt your feelings.

[1330] And I think it's so obviously, it means nothing, whether we call you a sex chinchilla or a sex leopard or a sex.

[1331] Well, it does, though.

[1332] Well, no, it's so preposterous.

[1333] We were arguing whether or not Rihanna can be called a sex chinchilla.

[1334] sex giraffe.

[1335] That already starts off as being the stupidest conversation in the world.

[1336] Oh, it is.

[1337] Of course a stupid conversation.

[1338] Should Rihanna be upset that I'm saying a sex giraffe?

[1339] If I called you a sex giraffe, would you be upset.

[1340] I think whatever animal I would say to you would upset you.

[1341] And you're trying to make an objective claim about what animal is sexy or not.

[1342] But I started with calling someone I think very sexy a sex giraffe.

[1343] Yeah.

[1344] Which no woman's really necessarily dying to be confused with a giraffe.

[1345] So it just, to me, it started on a preposterous premise.

[1346] And then if I call you a sex genchilla, it's just funny.

[1347] And I understand your feelings were hurt, and I'm sorry that they were.

[1348] But for me, it was funny from the get -go, and it was never an evaluation of your actual looks or what animal you resemble.

[1349] And so I think we have different sensitivities to that.

[1350] Yeah, we have different sensitivities in general.

[1351] And I'm just saying that I don't think, and maybe I'm wrong about that.

[1352] this and you can tell me because if I'm doing it I really want to stop I think I do a fairly good job of not trying to exacerbate your sensitivities.

[1353] You must because you never anger me or hurt my feelings except for when you've been happy when I've lost.

[1354] That's the only thing and I brought that up.

[1355] Yeah.

[1356] I just thought I would bring that up because it felt more like a broad painting with a pretty wide brush of my personality that I don't like anything, and I don't find that to be true at all.

[1357] No, I just meant with the animals.

[1358] Okay.

[1359] I think you like a lot of stuff.

[1360] Rectangle sandwiches.

[1361] Love them.

[1362] Mm -hmm.

[1363] Love them.

[1364] Square sandwiches.

[1365] Round sandwiches.

[1366] You even had a long skinny sandwich at Lafayette Coney Island while we were in Detroit.

[1367] Oh, yeah.

[1368] That was a nice sandwich.

[1369] Uh -huh.

[1370] Would we call that a, well, according to Andrew Zimmern, he maintains that it's a sandwich.

[1371] Anything between bread, I guess he says.

[1372] That's true.

[1373] He had some strong opinions about cookies and crackers and sandwiches.

[1374] I agreed with him.

[1375] He said, well, someone in our Q &A in Minneapolis asked, is a animal cracker, a cracker, or a cookie?

[1376] And he felt very strongly it was a cookie.

[1377] You couldn't say it fast enough.

[1378] Yeah.

[1379] And I agree.

[1380] Which it is.

[1381] I don't even think anyone's really on the cracker side of the debate.

[1382] Have you ever met anyone who's like, you know what my favorite crackers are?

[1383] Like when I do like crackers and cheese, animal crackers.

[1384] Like animal crackers and a sharp, sharp cheddar is my favorite.

[1385] Maybe the kids would say that to get away with getting some free cookies.

[1386] Absolutely.

[1387] Angling to get a box of cookies.

[1388] I wonder when they created that product, they were like, we can't call them animal cookies because parents won't buy their kids cookies.

[1389] He's, hun, they're just crackers.

[1390] It says it on the box.

[1391] You know, he had some of the 80s who had their weekly 15 minutes of watching the kids.

[1392] Well, the mom, like, got a Ogilvie home permanent.

[1393] Yeah, up in the bathroom.

[1394] Came downstairs, and there was like six empty boxes, animal crackers.

[1395] I was like, hon, they're crackers.

[1396] It came from England where they call cookies, biscuits, or crackers.

[1397] That makes a little bit of sense.

[1398] That does make sense.

[1399] I remember having a real laugh when Aaron and Bolus and Dean and I were in Venice, Italy on our little European adventure.

[1400] And we had an English roommate in our hostel, and he was sharing his chocolate digestive biscuits with us.

[1401] And they were fucking delicious.

[1402] And they were cookies.

[1403] They were just cookies.

[1404] And we thought, what an unappetizing description.

[1405] They were called digestive biscuits?

[1406] Chocolate digestive biscuits.

[1407] And all day, weekly, be like, God damn, I could really go for some more of those digestive biscuits.

[1408] They were in a long tube.

[1409] And you'd unwrapped the paper.

[1410] And there was just 20 or 30 digestive biscuits slathered in chocolate.

[1411] And they were fucking yummy with the worst name.

[1412] Anyone in the mood for digestive biscuits?

[1413] No, thank you.

[1414] Everyone's going to pass.

[1415] I think I'll just stick with water.

[1416] Now, I think Animal Correctors should have gone the whole way and called them Animal Digestive Biscuits.

[1417] Yeah.

[1418] Not only do you think there's something medicinal for your lower.

[1419] gastrointestinal tract, but you also think they're specifically engineered and made four animals.

[1420] Oh, you're right.

[1421] Animal digestive biscuits.

[1422] Doesn't that sound like something you give a horse that's got a win -win?

[1423] Blockage.

[1424] Also, you probably would only eat two of those because you'd be afraid to eat too many.

[1425] Fet it blow your colon out.

[1426] Yeah, diarrhea.

[1427] A little explosion.

[1428] A little raccoon, diarrhea.

[1429] Raccoon.

[1430] I wonder how that raccoon is.

[1431] I'm missing.

[1432] You do?

[1433] Yeah.

[1434] Well, when someone Hanna Sria is on my steps, I don't miss them.

[1435] Oh, okay.

[1436] Okay, well, that's you.

[1437] Okay, Kumal.

[1438] So he said Mobile, Alabama is the birthplace of Mardi Gras.

[1439] That is true.

[1440] Oh, congratulations, Mobile.

[1441] Before New Orleans, there was Mobile Alabama, the birthplace of Mardi Gras in America.

[1442] Mobile, founded by Roman Catholics from France in 1702, was home to the first mystic society, which held America's first Mardi Gras celebration in 17.

[1443] Matino 4.

[1444] 14 years before New Orleans was even founded.

[1445] Pretty cool.

[1446] Sorry, New Orleans.

[1447] They really kind of stole Mobiel's thunder with Marty Grau.

[1448] Kind of took it over, stole it.

[1449] I'm trying to think of an appropriate brand that did that.

[1450] Like Pepsi.

[1451] Well, no, because Coke's still thriving.

[1452] I was thinking more like Kleenex, Xerox.

[1453] You know, like someone probably made a copy machine before Xerox did.

[1454] Oh, yeah, that's true.

[1455] And then all of a sudden, everyone just calls it a Xerox machine.

[1456] Folks at Packbell or whoever might have been in that racket are like, God damn it, we fucking invented that thing.

[1457] I guess it's all in the name.

[1458] This is a theme in this fact check.

[1459] It is.

[1460] It is.

[1461] Key.

[1462] Speaking of digestive biscuits, we did get into some Oreos on the trip.

[1463] We like to spoil ourselves.

[1464] Black and white digestive biscuits.

[1465] Two -tone digestive biscuits by Oreo.

[1466] Oh, and we learned the whole history of Oreo because we had a little debate in the airport.

[1467] I was very wrong, very, very wrong.

[1468] We were saying how old are Oreas?

[1469] When were they invented?

[1470] Uh -huh.

[1471] And I guessed 100 years ago.

[1472] What did I guess?

[1473] I was right.

[1474] You said something like 1900 and I was like, no way.

[1475] The technology to make those digestive biscuits couldn't have existed before 1960.

[1476] I'm just imagining it being like an injection mold.

[1477] Conveyor belt.

[1478] Yeah.

[1479] And it turns out it was pre -900.

[1480] March 6, 1912.

[1481] Oh, 1912.

[1482] Wow.

[1483] Got it wrong again.

[1484] I can't get this 107 years old.

[1485] I can commit to that.

[1486] We love Oreos.

[1487] We hope they sponsor us.

[1488] You know, milk makes a great companion piece to Oreo digestive biscuits.

[1489] Perfect companion piece.

[1490] Well, oh, I probably shouldn't.

[1491] Well, milk's not going to sponsor us, so it's fine.

[1492] It's not good for your body.

[1493] Well, for certain ethnicities for sure.

[1494] Yeah.

[1495] I think a lot of people are lactose and heart.

[1496] They are.

[1497] The stats are there.

[1498] 90 plus percent for Asia.

[1499] Yeah, and that's me. 75 % for African Americans.

[1500] What about Caucasian?

[1501] Well, it varies whether they had a herding population or not.

[1502] The Celtics and Irish and all them, they did a lot of hurting.

[1503] But mostly, like, where you see the lowest percentages in the Middle East because the Bedouins have been hurting those cattle.

[1504] And remember I said that it didn't make much sense to me about Asians because, like in India, there's so much yogurt consumption.

[1505] And Indians are Asian.

[1506] Well, you and I don't agree on that.

[1507] So it's confusing as to why Indians and Asians would have blackish intolerance.

[1508] Well, the Asians, and I'm talking now, mainland China, Mongolia, Japan, they didn't herd animals.

[1509] They were growing rice as their main subsistence model.

[1510] Yeah, so it's just how long you've been hurting.

[1511] Yeah.

[1512] Still a mystery with the yogurt.

[1513] It is confusing.

[1514] Yeah.

[1515] Although does the lactose go away in that process somehow?

[1516] Because I've not seen lactose -free yogurt.

[1517] But I think, no, because you can get like 2 % yogurt.

[1518] Right.

[1519] Yeah.

[1520] Most yogurt is very.

[1521] You could get skim.

[1522] Right, but that would still have lactose.

[1523] Yeah, that's what I mean.

[1524] So, yeah, so it must have it.

[1525] For sure.

[1526] But I've never seen lactose -free yogurt, which leads me to believe that somehow there's not lactose in yogurt.

[1527] I'll look it up for next time.

[1528] Okay, next year.

[1529] This will be a mystery.

[1530] Okay, great.

[1531] So, Kumau's mom asked you if you knew about the Mau Mau, and you said no, and then she said shame on you.

[1532] That's right.

[1533] It is a militant African nationalist movement that originated in the 1950s among the Kikuyu people of Kenya.

[1534] Sorry if I mispronounce that.

[1535] Sorry.

[1536] The Mao Mao, origin of the name is uncertain, advocated violent resistance to British domination in Kenya.

[1537] The movement was especially associated with the ritual oats employed by leaders of the Kikuyu Central Association to promote unity in the independence movement.

[1538] In 1950, the Mau Mau were banned by British authorities in October 1952 after a campaign of sabotage and assassination attributed to Mao terrorists, the British Kenya government declared a state of emergency and began four years of military operations against Kikuyu rebels.

[1539] By the end of 1956, more than 11 ,000 rebels have been killed in the fighting, along with about 100 Europeans and 2 ,000 African loyalists.

[1540] More than 20 ,000 other KikiU were put in detention camps or intensive efforts were made to convert them to the political views of the government, i .e. abandoned their nationalist aspirations.

[1541] What do you think about passive versus violent resistance, peaceful versus...

[1542] I know.

[1543] So what's interesting is I am a big proponent of peaceful...

[1544] As am I. protest and i think we have some historical evidence that it can be incredibly effective powerful i .e gondy yes martin luther king and at the same time i can say i would have an impossible time accepting that if i was being put upon by the man i can't imagine i wouldn't fight back or feel like i have a right to fight back if you're using violence i feel like i can respond with violence so it's very complicated i totally understand that too i understand the men mentality of it.

[1545] I don't think it's helpful.

[1546] Yeah.

[1547] I think ultimately what turns the tides is generally seeing humans as human.

[1548] Yeah.

[1549] Like the footage of the fire hoses in the south and the beatings.

[1550] Those were the things that people I think were like, oh my goodness, we're monsters and look what we're allowing.

[1551] Yeah.

[1552] I know.

[1553] If you see like a bunch of people kick the man's ass on TV, you're just not incredibly sympathetic to them, you know?

[1554] Exactly.

[1555] Well, it also feels like, okay.

[1556] Okay, well, you're doing the same thing.

[1557] So who's better?

[1558] And if I was black, I was like, it's not my responsibility to prove you I'm human by getting my ass kicked on TV.

[1559] Right.

[1560] I think that's a legit comeback.

[1561] Also, there's been examples of violence working.

[1562] The IRA, Irish Republic Army, that seemed to bring negotiations and peace talks to the table.

[1563] I think that somehow was effective.

[1564] I don't know.

[1565] I mean, also, war is violent.

[1566] Yeah, war is horrendously violent.

[1567] Yeah.

[1568] Kumau majored in East Asian Studies.

[1569] Of course.

[1570] And so then I did a little research on East Asian studies.

[1571] That does not include India, by the way.

[1572] Yes, it does.

[1573] Oh, shit.

[1574] So, actually, East Asian, I don't know.

[1575] It's shown it.

[1576] It probably doesn't.

[1577] It probably doesn't.

[1578] But it's labeled specifically East Asian.

[1579] To get rid of the Indians out of it.

[1580] Probably.

[1581] So we're not going to trouble you with any Indus Valley bullshit.

[1582] You're not even going to run any of that.

[1583] What's confusing, too, is they used to it when people regularly called Native Americans, Indians, the way to distinguish was to say East Indian, as opposed to American Indian.

[1584] Yeah, that's what I said.

[1585] Right.

[1586] So we're getting this word East in there.

[1587] I was married to it permanently.

[1588] I don't like it because it's really the western edge of Asia.

[1589] It's very East.

[1590] I don't even consider it.

[1591] Well, again, it's East of Europe, but it's very much west of China.

[1592] Okay.

[1593] It's still generally east.

[1594] I don't want to, I don't want to totally.

[1595] It's in the Eastern Hemisphere for sure.

[1596] Oh, no. Oh, my.

[1597] Well, you got your charger right there.

[1598] Yeah.

[1599] Let's plug that prick in.

[1600] While your computer boots up, so you just spent almost two straight weeks with Aaron Weekly, my best friend, Aaron Weekly.

[1601] I did.

[1602] Yeah.

[1603] Did you enjoy it?

[1604] Of course.

[1605] Of course I. When you see your father and son together?

[1606] It was, he's so great.

[1607] He is a sweet.

[1608] He's a fun person.

[1609] I like him a lot.

[1610] He's always laughing and smiling.

[1611] He has a great laugh.

[1612] He does.

[1613] And really funny farts, too.

[1614] Although the one you heard was, we've decided they've gotten a little, he's a little looser back.

[1615] He's grown up a little bit.

[1616] Yeah.

[1617] His anus is matured.

[1618] I only heard one fart, I think.

[1619] Right.

[1620] And it wasn't what I was hoping for.

[1621] Yeah.

[1622] It wasn't the one I always described in junior high where girls thought it was cute.

[1623] It was cute.

[1624] Cuter, yeah.

[1625] Then an average fart, it was a little higher in the red shirt.

[1626] It was high, yeah.

[1627] It was a falsetto.

[1628] Yeah, you guys really have fun together.

[1629] It's very sweet.

[1630] Is it annoying?

[1631] No. No, it's not annoying.

[1632] Yeah, you guys talked about how hot you wanted your coffee at Dairy Queen for 10 minutes.

[1633] I wasn't at the table you were at, but I could hear just this outrageous laughter.

[1634] It's so much, it hurt my stomach in a way that it hasn't hurt my stomach in a decade laughing.

[1635] Yeah, our whole thing was we want the coffee.

[1636] hot.

[1637] It's got to be so hot the coffee we want.

[1638] To the point where we want to pull up, they'll say, welcome to Dairy Queen.

[1639] Can I take your order?

[1640] I'm going to pull up to the window.

[1641] I'll just be right up.

[1642] And then we hand them a binder.

[1643] And in the binder is gloves for them to handle the coffee eventually once they get a hot enough.

[1644] And then a laminated instruction on how to get it hot enough.

[1645] So we wanted to be so hot that we can't handle.

[1646] Whatever you do, don't hand me the coffee.

[1647] I'm going to pull the truck up and lower the tailgate and you'll put it in.

[1648] the tailgate with the gloves.

[1649] No, my question isn't about the coffee.

[1650] It's about, do you think something just gets heightened because it's you too?

[1651] Like, I think if you started going down this rabbit hole with, like, me or Charlie, perfect 10 Charlie or even like Ryan, like you'd laugh, but it would not do what's happening with.

[1652] Like, there's a strain of absurd that he and I like.

[1653] Like, it's the same every time.

[1654] It's like we'll start talking about what it should say in a car sales ad.

[1655] The more boring the example could be the funnier it is.

[1656] And it just keeps building and building.

[1657] See, this will be funny to you, but the new Chevy Volt has four door handles.

[1658] That's funny.

[1659] Build on the most boring things that could be in this ad and it just doesn't end.

[1660] Yeah.

[1661] Yeah.

[1662] I think it's funny.

[1663] Okay.

[1664] I think you like the thing you're talking about.

[1665] But I think there's an added thing happening.

[1666] Even if the conversation were exactly verbatim with another person.

[1667] Oh, I wonder.

[1668] I don't think it would be the same result.

[1669] Yeah, maybe not.

[1670] Yeah.

[1671] Maybe not.

[1672] What's cool?

[1673] It's so fun.

[1674] Okay, back to East Asia.

[1675] Harvard awards the most degrees in East Asian studies in the United States.

[1676] But Kalamazoo College.

[1677] In Michigan.

[1678] Why is it called Kalamazoo College?

[1679] That's the name of the city.

[1680] I know.

[1681] It sounds like kangaroo.

[1682] It sounds like literally clown college.

[1683] It does.

[1684] And by the way, Kalamazoo is a great place.

[1685] So there's nothing bad about Kalamazoo.

[1686] No. If I told you like, hey, did you know that they opened up a zoo and it's only kangaroos?

[1687] And you go, what's the name of it?

[1688] And I go, Kalamazoo.

[1689] You'd go, oh, that makes perfect sense.

[1690] A kangaroo zoo.

[1691] Kangaroo Zoo.

[1692] Welcome to Kalamazoo Kangaroo Zoo.

[1693] Well, it's tricky because it's California.

[1694] Calamah Zoo.

[1695] Z. So it would be two zoos.

[1696] Yeah.

[1697] It would be Calama.

[1698] Why, because Calama means two?

[1699] No. No. Two zoos.

[1700] Just if it was Kalamazoo Zoo, zoo, then it's two zoos.

[1701] It would be two zoos.

[1702] It was like a Native American originally, which it likely is.

[1703] Not East Indian.

[1704] No, no, no. It's Native American because we have a lot of Native American towns in, in Michigan named after native, you know, like I think Shiboigan is one.

[1705] I don't know, Kalamazoo sounds like it.

[1706] It maybe it is, yeah.

[1707] But what if they had two zoos there, and it just means in Navajo city of two zoos?

[1708] Because Kalama is two.

[1709] Anyway.

[1710] Kalamazoo College.

[1711] Kalamazoo College and Smith College have the highest percentage of degrees awarding in East Asian Studies.

[1712] Nice percentage, but not the highest amount.

[1713] That's Harvard.

[1714] Okay.

[1715] More about East Asian Studies.

[1716] 722 total degrees were awarded in 2016.

[1717] That's it?

[1718] Yeah.

[1719] Nationally?

[1720] I think so.

[1721] Oh, my God.

[1722] So maybe Harvard's leading the pack with like 35 students a year.

[1723] Exactly.

[1724] That puts him in a very, uh, puts him in a very exclusive club.

[1725] It does.

[1726] But he did drop out.

[1727] Oh, good.

[1728] So he does not have a degree from it.

[1729] Well, that probably is even a more exclusive club.

[1730] of people who majored in it and dropped out of it.

[1731] I don't know, though, because it kind of seems like maybe a lot of people who would pick that would drop out.

[1732] You think a lot of people drop up because they get there and they're like, no, India.

[1733] Wait, I thought we were going to talk about India.

[1734] Yep.

[1735] I think there's a lot of confusion about what constitutes East Asia.

[1736] It's going to be 80 % China.

[1737] So Kamau said that he started his political comedy when Obama was running for president.

[1738] And he said he was getting angry about stuff.

[1739] And then you made a joke.

[1740] You said, why you want a Bob Dold?

[1741] win.

[1742] Oh, okay.

[1743] Yeah, but Bob Dole was not running against Obama.

[1744] Oh, no, he was.

[1745] McCain.

[1746] McCain.

[1747] Oh, but no, um, the second time.

[1748] No, the second time was Romney.

[1749] Yeah.

[1750] Shit.

[1751] Dole was Clinton.

[1752] Okay.

[1753] Bob Dole.

[1754] Yeah.

[1755] Yeah.

[1756] I, of course, voted for Billery Clinton.

[1757] Sure.

[1758] I did enjoy Dole on the campaign trial and stuff.

[1759] He was very likable.

[1760] Yeah.

[1761] I think he went on Saturday Night Live and stuff.

[1762] And he always held a pen in it.

[1763] his hand yeah that was so young oh yeah you're very nothing no I think no I think there was something I don't think we just saw a rumor that Bob Dole has tremors okay moving on anyway no actually not moving on because I was in I think fourth grade during that election and we had we were just chew it oh god I forgot yeah I literally forgot about misophonia yeah okay we started There's all those tasty, yeah, Marcona almonds.

[1764] This whole thing is just an ad for things.

[1765] Marcona digestive snack.

[1766] Anyway, fourth grade and we were learning about elections.

[1767] And I remember we were given, which I wish they would do this now.

[1768] I wonder if they do in schools where they basically give you a questionnaire.

[1769] And you have to answer questions about what you think.

[1770] And at the end, it basically tells you if you're a Republican or a Democrat or a libertarian.

[1771] Yeah.

[1772] And who you should vote for.

[1773] Clinton was my guess.

[1774] Right.

[1775] After I was filling it out, that's what I received on my questionnaire.

[1776] But I didn't want it to be Clinton.

[1777] I wanted it to be Bob Dole because I was in Georgia.

[1778] Oh.

[1779] And is he from Georgia?

[1780] No, he was just a Republican candidate.

[1781] Oh, okay.

[1782] And so most people wanted Bob Dole to win there.

[1783] Right.

[1784] So then I wanted Bob Dole to win.

[1785] Oh, okay.

[1786] Oh, wow.

[1787] Because I wanted to be like everybody.

[1788] But I didn't really because, according to my questionnaire, I wanted Clinton to win.

[1789] went.

[1790] Oh, interesting.

[1791] Yeah.

[1792] Oh, so you went into it thinking you were going to land on Bob Dole.

[1793] I was desperate to.

[1794] You were hoping to.

[1795] And then you landed on Clinton.

[1796] Yeah.

[1797] Wow.

[1798] We just listened to a podcast.

[1799] I wish you could remember.

[1800] It was on stuff you should know and it was about the Fairness Act.

[1801] Is that what's called?

[1802] Doctrine?

[1803] Fairness doctrine.

[1804] And you know, it's interesting.

[1805] I can see the validity of both sides for sure.

[1806] So basically, that's radio became popular and there was a finite amount of stations, bandwidth with available, they had to get the government in there to control it.

[1807] So just it didn't get monopolized by one voice and only disinformation being spread.

[1808] So they made all these rules.

[1809] Are you going to present a point?

[1810] You have to present the counterpoint.

[1811] And I was like, oh, I like that.

[1812] That's really good.

[1813] And it really is a very fundamental conservative, liberal debate because it's, does the individual have liberty in First Amendment rights?

[1814] Or should we curb those rights for the betterment of the whole population and what's interesting is like I can't say that I'm one or the other there are debates where I'm on one side of it and there's other debates where I'm on the other side of it and it's kind of like a just a pendulum for me that's swinging in some situations some context it seems I lean liberal in that way like I think ultimately yeah the betterment of the masses on some cases there's definitely worth whatever for individuals wanted to monopolize the radio bandwidth Uh -huh.

[1815] But then there'll be another argument where I'm like, no, you're sure you're allowed to say what, you know.

[1816] I think it'd be nice to be forced to see both sides right now, especially.

[1817] Well, it correlates perfectly with us becoming completely bifuricated as a country with the erosion of these rules where you can really just say one message, you can editorialize, you don't have to give any opposing perspective.

[1818] And, you know, I think it's to the detriment of the collective.

[1819] Yeah, everything's so divided.

[1820] But I feel like it's been that way for a long time.

[1821] Like when I would, like, ride in the car with my dad when I was little and he would listen to Clark Howard.

[1822] Does it, do you know Clark Howard?

[1823] I wonder if that's just a Georgia thing.

[1824] But he was pretty conservative.

[1825] Well, by the way, this all started happening around like 87.

[1826] Oh.

[1827] And then the last bit of it where it was completely abolished was under Obama, his administration.

[1828] Right.

[1829] That's what I remember you saying yesterday was that it was abolished under Obama, but cable TV's been.

[1830] Well, yes, it started getting heavily eroded in the 80s because of cable TV because there wasn't finite bandwidth anymore.

[1831] Right.

[1832] Yeah.

[1833] That's really all.

[1834] That's all?

[1835] Yeah.

[1836] Okay.

[1837] Well, that was the biggest audience we've ever done a show in front.

[1838] Yeah, that's right.

[1839] It was gigantic in there.

[1840] It was.

[1841] It felt like, as you said in this episode, like a monster truck rally.

[1842] I feel like we needed pyrotechnics.

[1843] Yeah.

[1844] Like the T -shirt cannon, which is normally a real spectacle in an event to observe, felt a little less than what we, less firepower than we needed.

[1845] Oh, yeah.

[1846] We should have definitely shot some rockets up in the air.

[1847] If we had known, yeah.

[1848] Yeah.

[1849] The armchair expert rocket.

[1850] speaking of it was just fourth of july it was yeah and we got to see a lot of good fireworks in the most beautiful serene setting it was there was a bunch of boats docked in the bay and then a big long pier and we were laying on sand yeah it was nice magic and then the next day we saw more i'll be right in the lake yeah we were watching the skyline of chicago light up yeah it was very very cool and i was saying that I love July 4th, and it makes me grateful that a lot of people sacrificed a lot of things so that I could grow up here.

[1851] Yeah, I felt very, very grateful as well.

[1852] Yeah.

[1853] It's a good place to be, despite its problems.

[1854] It's the best place.

[1855] It's the best place.

[1856] Yeah.

[1857] We like it the most.

[1858] Yeah.

[1859] All right.

[1860] I love you.

[1861] Love you.

[1862] Follow armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcast.

[1863] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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