#290 – Dan Reynolds: Imagine Dragons

[0] The following is a conversation with Dan Reynolds, the lead singer of Imagine Dragons, one of the most popular bands in the world with over 75 million records sold and with four songs being streamed over a billion times on Spotify.

[1] Given all that, Dan is one of the most down -to -earth, kind, thoughtful, and fascinating human beings I've ever met, grounded in part by his lifelong struggle with mental health.

[2] The darkness, the love, and the creative brilliance, are all there in this one humble mind.

[3] For this reason, and many others, we became fast friends.

[4] Plus, he recently started his journey in programming, which, funny enough, is where we start this wide -ranging, deeply personal, and fun conversation.

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[9] She was wisely my friends.

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[35] It replaced a multivitamin for me and went far beyond that with 75 vitamins and minerals.

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[62] And now, dear friends, here's Dan Reynolds.

[63] So we were talking offline that you're not just getting into programming.

[64] What's the most beautiful program you've ever written?

[65] Something that brought you, There's something I really love completion.

[66] It's the reason that I'm addicted to songwriting.

[67] I like there being nothing and then having some blocks or tools and building them into what you want it to look like.

[68] And then I find it incredibly rewarding to stand back and look at what you did at the end.

[69] It could be anything for me. It's it was as simple to begin with as just, you know, because it's object -oriented, like making a cube move.

[70] Like, as simple as that, understanding that, and knowing that I built that and made it do that is really rewarding.

[71] And I think it's the thing that drew me into to wanting to learn more.

[72] But as far as what is some grandiard, like some big piece of code that I've done, like, absolutely not.

[73] It's more, I'm still a level where it's more like, what is a, tutorial that I followed and got you know and then you know yeah so I couldn't say I'm at a level where I've done anything beautiful at all in code but you're also interested in potentially like your heart is drawn to creating games creating anything um and completing it yeah that's the good feel good as it's done yeah I've I mean I've been working over the last two years um with actually a team out of Kiev on, and we can get into that, it's a whole other story, but on a computer game.

[74] And really, I've kept that kind of under wraps, but yeah, we're kind of getting to a point now where we have a prototype that we can play, and it's a lot of fun.

[75] And thankfully, all the team members are in safe places now.

[76] Things have obviously been on hold for a little bit.

[77] But, you know, when that started is when I really decided, okay, I need to understand base level coding and C -Shire so I'm not an idiot talking to these people.

[78] And so we've been doing that for a couple years.

[79] Is there any parallels between the final completion that you feel with programming, which I think is a little bit more definitive?

[80] Like there's debugging, the code doesn't work, it's messy, and so on.

[81] There's the early design stages you're not sure, like, how to have functions and classes, how it's all going to work, and then it comes together, and it's really done because it works, and there's a cube moving on the screen.

[82] Right, right.

[83] Is there any parallels between that and music?

[84] Because are you really ever done done with a song?

[85] It's exactly the same thing for me, just in that it's art. I really believe that we have not fully encapsulated artists.

[86] Like when we say art, I think most people think, okay, the medium must be painting or drawing or music or writing.

[87] but I really believe anytime you're creating something engineers for instance you're creating something with tools that you have and it can be incredibly beautiful and so yeah I think and it's never done I feel like I look at songs that I've done and I never felt you have to let go or I have to let go and that's all I'm just continually making myself let go but I look it's songs that I've done and wish I had done more or kept going down that road and what would have happened.

[88] And I'm really contained to because of what our band is and what our fans expect.

[89] And there's so much more to it that it's like I'm fitting in a box always.

[90] You know, it's like this song shouldn't be longer than three minutes and 30 seconds.

[91] And I don't know if I remember the chorus after I heard it.

[92] Maybe I need to hear the chorus three times instead of those two times it's like there's there's certain especially in pop music it's really hard to um yeah it's there's con it feels like there's confines even though people are like well there's no confines but still everybody's writing a pop song that's a few minutes and are those explicit in your mind or are they just kind of the gut is like you said chorus should you have chorus once twice or three times is that a gut thing or is that a rule thing you know i think it's a rule I mean, it's obviously a rule I impose on myself.

[93] Nobody's in my house saying, hey, Dan, if you don't do this, I'm going to punish you.

[94] There's no major label president that's like, imagine Dragons needs to make pop music, Dan.

[95] You know what I mean?

[96] My manager doesn't even tell me that.

[97] I do it because it's what I perceive to be enjoyable.

[98] I grew up listening to a ton of pop music.

[99] And then I ended up being in what is quote unquote a rock band, which I've never perceived.

[100] received it as that but that's kind of what the world has called it and that's fine but um so you're a prisoner of a prison that you yourself constructed there you go well i'm a confines are yours i'm a happy i guess what i'm trying to say is i'm a happy prisoner of the prison that i have created for myself and i made that prison thinking that it was a mansion so you worked with rick rubin what does Rick think about your prison?

[101] Rick, Rick was, Rick was, you know, it was interesting to hear his outside opinion when we first met because my biggest focus for so much of my life.

[102] My biggest fear was, and this stems from, I think, middle schools when it started, but everyone being in on a joke except for yourself.

[103] Like, the thought of thinking you're good at something and really you're terrible at it and you're surrounded by people who are saying yeah you're good at it and then by themselves they're like he's terrible at this just kind of and not just in regards to music or art but anything in life and I think maybe from having six older brothers it stems from that too like always feeling inadequate and like the annoying younger brother you know um but anyway so ricks And that's something I've learned to let go of as I've gotten older and had life experiences.

[104] But one of the things that Rick said really early on that has stuck with me was he said, yeah, we were resuming the first time we met.

[105] He said, I'd really like to work with you because I feel like you don't, you're not confined to a sound.

[106] You've done a lot of different sounds.

[107] And so it's exciting because I feel like your fans are forgiving more than other rock bands or bands.

[108] because most people when they hear, you know, I don't, when they hear a band, it's like, there's a very specific sound with it.

[109] It's like they do folk music.

[110] Oh, they do like California rock or they do surf or they do, you know, like there's, and your fans kind of want that.

[111] Like, they want them to do that thing.

[112] And then they don't do it.

[113] And sometimes that goes well, but a lot of times it doesn't.

[114] And people, you know, critics and everybody is like, go back to the thing that you did good and do that.

[115] Rick was felt whether he was right or wrong that we could we could do we we hopped genres so much and that's been to our benefit and detriment I think why detriment because people want you to to be something it's more you can believe it more I you know it's like it's more authentic if you if you never change I guess I I don't know.

[116] I mean, it's certainly it's not something I subscribe to because I create music.

[117] But I also grew up listening to a lot of different genres.

[118] Like cats, I would listen to like Cat Stevens and the next song would be like Biggie.

[119] And then the next song would be Nirvana.

[120] And it was like, I like a lot of, and then Billy Joel and then Enya.

[121] It was like, you know what I mean?

[122] I was a product of the 90s, which if you listen to 90s music, it really was a lot of reason that people say, well, 90s were terrible.

[123] Like, a lot of people say that.

[124] I love the 90s.

[125] It was my favorite decade of music.

[126] Was there was a lot of genre hopping and, I don't know, I love that.

[127] She had the 90s had the boy bands, and it had Pearl Jam and Nirvana.

[128] And it had a lot of, like, women of the 90s was probably my biggest influence, like kind of that, like, angry rock women of the 90s.

[129] Lannis Morset, Jag of Little Pills, one of my favorite records of all time.

[130] The lyrics were so intimate and I don't know if she was angry or not.

[131] Sorry, if she wasn't.

[132] Yeah, but there was an anger to it.

[133] There was angst.

[134] Yeah, it was like angstiness.

[135] And that in hip -hop of the 90s influences me and then my dad.

[136] So anything my dad listened to, which my dad didn't listen to any of that.

[137] My dad listened to like Harry Nelson, the Beatles, Cat Stevens, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon.

[138] Billy Joel.

[139] It was very much like singer -songwriter.

[140] Do you mind if we throughout this, listen to a few songs?

[141] Because you mentioned hearing this and I was actually yesterday and the day before listening to a lot of his stuff.

[142] And it's just like, damn, he's good.

[143] And not as known as he should be.

[144] Like, I was getting, do you mind if I play?

[145] No, please, yeah.

[146] I don't know not to open this conversation.

[147] with a love song.

[148] I would like that, actually, Lex.

[149] But without you is an incredible song.

[150] Oh, man, that's, yeah.

[151] And the heartbreak and the longing?

[152] What?

[153] He's the best to do it, in my opinion.

[154] In my opinion, he's the best to do it.

[155] The vocal range.

[156] And just the sadness of, like, there's something I don't even want to talk over him because this is one of my favorite songs too but I think people have a really good bullshit indicator and music in my opinion whenever I meet a young artist and say well I'm trying to make a new band and I want to do something like how to be successful I really think understanding that people have a really good bullshit should indicator is the most important part of being an artist and i'll explain what what that means at least to me i think that in order to have success or or be a leader or whether it's an art or anything people need to believe that you believe what you're doing um i think the best actors really when they're doing their thing it's like they it's not acting they're they're in it and it's how they feel and they're expressing that sorrow or joy or whatever it is harry for me harry nelson he just i just believe it he could he sings that and i i feel it and whether he's the greatest bullshitter of all time or it i don't think that's the case i think he probably was seeing that song and he just could transport himself to wherever he was it's what makes a great live act it's what makes a great song and someone could be the best actor and sing that in the same timber same EQ same compression same everything and there's some unknown there that i you know i don't i think it hopefully it will be known at some point it's some scientific thing but there's something there that the energy or something that people can perceive it and say true or false.

[157] And if it resonates as true, it's so much more meaningful and it lives on.

[158] And if it doesn't, that for me is what is good art or bad.

[159] Like for people to dispute over like, well, sonics should sound like that's silly to me. It's like a song or or even a painting.

[160] Like it's just the truthfulness of it.

[161] Yeah.

[162] The, The truly great art ghost has to go to that place where you really are feeling it.

[163] Like you forget that you're being recorded.

[164] You forget there's an audience.

[165] You really are feeling it.

[166] Yeah, which I totally agree with you.

[167] One of the things that I love about the internet is it's brought the bullshit detector of the masses to power, which is beautiful.

[168] because then the masses uplift the really authentic.

[169] And even if you didn't write this song, I think it helps a lot probably if you wrote the song.

[170] But, you know, I was a little bit, maybe a lot since we're in Vegas, a little heartbroken to find out that Elvis didn't write his songs.

[171] But, like, for example, Rocket Man, Elton John, like to find out that Elton John didn't really know where the words of Rocket Man came from, meaning like the depths of it.

[172] It's interesting, but nevertheless, he's super authentic because for Elton John and for Elvis, there's something in the fun and the darkness and the entertainment of it.

[173] Like, he goes to someplace in his mind that might not be deeply connected from where the lyrics came from, but he relates it.

[174] He relates it to whatever is in his mind and goes to that place emotionally.

[175] Yeah, and that's what I think it is.

[176] And that's why an actor, like I said, can be completely honest to me. Maybe they didn't write the script.

[177] But I write, like, I've always written all my own lyrics.

[178] It's a really personal thing to me. But I will say I see people all the time who are performers like Elton John, for instance, who didn't write the lyrics that I believe that it means just as much to them as what I wrote because they find the meaning in it for themselves.

[179] At least the greats do.

[180] And I think that's the difference maker.

[181] And I think you can perceive, and I'm sure you've seen art that doesn't move you, and maybe it moves someone else.

[182] But for you, for some reason, you perceive it to be uninteresting to you.

[183] And I feel like a lot of the time, I'm saying that it's, of course, sonically, maybe it's uninteresting to you.

[184] But I think the majority of the time for myself, I can find inspiration in any sonic value or painting as long as I see it, and I feel truth from the person that created it.

[185] Yeah, but for me, the lyrics, maybe not the entirety of the lyrics, but a few words can do wonders to take you to a place.

[186] And sometimes those words don't need to be connected with the other words.

[187] That's the beauty of music.

[188] They're allowed to float in the space of mixed metaphors.

[189] Yes.

[190] They're allowed to just jump around, and somehow it paints a picture without actually, what is it glycerine by bush right but it's also how the person says it right it's like it's the it's the feeling of exactly and the same person could say that word 10 other ways and you don't care but someone says glycerine or whatever it is and it's like oh you know what that i feel that for some way he said that he meant it to me you know what i mean and yeah uh no i can't forget this evening or your face as you were leaving, but I guess that's just the way the story goes.

[191] You always smile, but in your eyes, your sorrow shows.

[192] Yes, it shows.

[193] Let me ask you to analyze this song.

[194] Do you, so there's a lady, possibly, who's leaving him.

[195] Do you think he's leaving her or she's leaving him?

[196] If you want to...

[197] and the chorus is I can't live if living is without you can't live I can't give anymore he's got a voice on him yeah he does and if you really there's been some incredible documentation on his life and the end of his life and so my answer to this is probably skewed based on what I've seen about his life too but he he was a real alcoholic at the end of his life and it destroyed his voice and ended up killing him as well.

[198] And so when I hear that, I perceive it as someone who is destructive and in a destructive place in life and can't love someone properly.

[199] And so they can't live with them, but they can't live without them type thing, which is really something I really identify with and I think is, you know, one of the struggles of life is loving yourself enough um it's forgiving yourself for for things and and letting yourself love someone else and you know at least when i listened to that i hear harry being like and maybe i'm wrong but this is how i perceive it at least is not loving himself and feeling like he's deserving of this person like i have to let you go i hear that of course and people are saying oh well he's breaking up with her but there's so much more complexity and nuance to the relationships and my wife and I went through really difficult separation and that's a story for another day or different question or something but the nuance of it makes me think of this when I hear this which is there's just more to being with someone or not being with someone than hey I think that person's really attractive or hey that person makes me laugh or not or I love them and now I don't love them.

[200] Love is such a complex, nuanced thing that a lot of times there's just more going on behind the scenes, I think.

[201] Yeah, on a small tangent on that, just as a curious question, have you paid any attention to the Johnny Depp and ever heard trials?

[202] I have watched quite a bit of it because my wife really loves it and she watches it in bed at night.

[203] So it's raw, like, to me it's because you've mentioned how complicated love can be and it's i've never seen i don't care about the celebrity nature of it i don't care if it was i don't care who it is yeah but it's just laid out in such raw form the uh for the world to see it for the world to see the toxicity but also the passion and and the clearly sort of uh the drugs and the drinking but also like the longing and the dreams and I will always be with you, I will die for you, the places, the roller coaster of love.

[204] And it's all there at the end, past the end.

[205] So it's like, I've also recently reread the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich about Hitler and Nazi Germany.

[206] It's the rise and the fall.

[207] And it's interesting to look at the entirety of that process after it's all over, many, many decades after it's all over.

[208] That book in particular written by the person that was actually, there.

[209] And so here we're seeing two people in the context of the courtroom analyzing this rise and fall of a love affair.

[210] It's fascinating.

[211] You know the truth is, I was telling my wife this actually just the other day because she was asking me when I thought about it.

[212] It makes me really sad.

[213] It's humorous.

[214] Don't get me wrong.

[215] There's a lot of parts in it that are just really funny.

[216] But I look at it and I also see the internet, you know, someone's always the villain and someone's the hero, which is such a funny thing.

[217] And we talked a little about this offline before we got on this, but I have a real firm belief in life that it's just more complex than you think, always, always.

[218] And Johnny, for instance, is very charismatic and you love him and he's funny and this way he does things and he look certain ways and he says things he's just you really love him and I feel like and maybe I'm wrong on this but it looks like the internet is really like Johnny is the winner Amber is is the villain and I kind of look at it yeah and I kind of look at it and I feel like were any of you in their bedroom like were any of you there for these things and I'm not saying one way or the other like the all I see when I look at that is two people with a lot of deep seated hurt anger and that anger is so poisonous to both of them and they're and they're getting through it in the way that they only know how and i'm not saying we should you know we shouldn't be able to look at parts of it and laugh about it and stuff and and be virtuous or something but just that there's not a hero yeah i think uh unless you're you've been living with amber and johnny you don't know just because one seems more charismatic in the moment or funnier or more believable even doesn't mean that their truth is the truth.

[219] And I feel like there's still love there too, which makes...

[220] Oh, that's the hardest part.

[221] He won't even look at her.

[222] He looks down the whole time.

[223] And maybe people say, well, it's because of anger or hurt or whatever.

[224] But the way she looks and stuff, it feels, it just feels like there's so much hurt there that it hurts me to watch it.

[225] I just feel like, oh, my heart just like aches for them and for both of them.

[226] And I don't know either of them personally.

[227] And, you know, I don't know.

[228] It just hurts.

[229] But it's, I've never, I've never seen sort of love laid out in this raw kind of way.

[230] It makes me feel better about, like, it almost gives you, seeing people who have gone through a struggle in this sort of mundane kind of way, gives you room to struggle yourself about the messiness of love.

[231] So true.

[232] Like you're supposed to, like, relationship is supposed to be.

[233] simple and whatever but this like oh man this it's like art yeah and and for the record like i don't feel like it shouldn't be shown like i think it's actually really beautiful art and i agree there's going to be a lot of people who walk away from it and are changed in certain ways or look at things different i'm not saying it's changing the whole world the johnny devtrial but it's art it's just like you would look at a painting and it might affect you um my only commentary is more that there's not i think it's silly when people say who's right and who's right and who's who's wrong and who's the clear villain and who's the, like we love as human, we have to have an answer for everything, we have to put everything in a box.

[234] And it's like, well, we're looking at this and we're deciding, you're right and you're wrong.

[235] And I just think it's, it's silly unless it's your life.

[236] So speaking of heroes and villains and highs and lows, you grew up in Las Vegas.

[237] And you've said that Vegas is a performing town, a town of high stakes, drama, and eccentricity.

[238] It's a town of high highs and low lows.

[239] And I'll be damned if my therapist didn't point out that correlation out to me personally a long time ago.

[240] So to me, Vegas from the outside is romanticized by certain movies.

[241] The lows define the beauty of this town.

[242] And certain movies, so to me, Casino with Robert De Niro, Joe Pesci, and Sharon Stone, leaving Las Vegas with Nicholas Cage.

[243] if you're in Lodding in Las Vegas with the Chinese Deb play, Hunter Stompson.

[244] First of all, what's your favorite representation of Vegas from a darker side?

[245] And do you draw any wisdom insight from the darkness, the lows and the highs in those movies, or is it over -romanticized?

[246] So I grew up in a really conservative Mormon family.

[247] And Vegas was established by the Mormons and the mob.

[248] Those were like the two very different worlds that created what Vegas is.

[249] And if you live in Vegas, it really shows in a lot of ways because Vegas has the, you know, the strip and the parties and the craziness.

[250] But it also has very like neighborhoods and big families and conservative people and liberal people living together in a really interesting way.

[251] And for me, growing up here, for instance, was a lot of, like, driving on the freeway.

[252] My mom being like, children, close your eyes.

[253] There's a naked woman on that billboard.

[254] And every, okay, mom, on our way to church.

[255] You know what I mean?

[256] It was like, but also being like, whoa, this is crazy.

[257] This is, you know what I mean?

[258] Like, taken in whatever I could when I could.

[259] Yeah, yeah.

[260] So I saw, and I'm grateful for that.

[261] Like, I really love that I didn't grow up as a Mormon.

[262] in, for instance, like Utah or something, like the typical place, because I saw both sides and I appreciated something from both sides.

[263] And now, as a person now who's not religious, but just spiritually minded, you know, I'm grateful for that divergent character, that juxtaposition, dual -edged sword that Vegas is.

[264] And I try to apply that to everything in life, which is like Johnny Depp and the Amber.

[265] It's like there's two sides to every story.

[266] there's always two sides to every coin there's always and there's something to be said for both like i try to see people and and even if you know it's just yeah i try to apply that to life as far as a movie that personifies Vegas or or something in and that medium that personifies Vegas in a way that resonates with me don't say hangover no no yeah i i also like i wasn't even allowed to watch pg 13 movies growing up so i a lot of of the movies that you're saying like I didn't I either didn't see I didn't have cable television you know I wasn't like a pilgrim but I had a really really conservative upbringing so it didn't define your intellectual like development no no I just I can't think of any movie that comes to mind where I'm like that's my Vegas movie you know what I mean like I'm sure I've seen some of the movies you've said now but I don't I can't think of one that I'm like actually personifies Vegas in a way that feels honest to me Like, or, like, wasn't there a Chevy, was there a Chevy Chase?

[267] Yeah, yeah.

[268] I think that's maybe the only one I thought of that came in the mind where I was like, because I love Chevy Chase so much that maybe it's one of his Vegas, Vegas vacation or something.

[269] Yeah, so, but that's more like lighthearted, surge, that kind of stuff.

[270] Right, it's not like, I guess what I would say is there's no truth that has been, that I've seen of Vegas, because what I see of Vegas is, there's obviously like the parties and stuff in the nightlife, which I'm not a big party person, so I haven't really experienced much of that.

[271] But there's also drugs, and I have a strange relationship with drugs because I've lost a few friends to drug overdoses, and so I don't, that's not romantic to me. But there's also like, yeah, I mean, you asked for a dark reflection of it.

[272] I guess I certainly see a dark reflection to Vegas, and I feel like Vegas is typically personified.

[273] It's like, at the tables and everything is this, but it's also like I have like friends who've lost all their money to gambling addiction.

[274] And so it's like what I guess the, yeah, somebody maybe needs to make, maybe that's an open spot.

[275] There needs to be a dark side to Vegas.

[276] Well, it's about Mormons in Vegas.

[277] That's dying and drug overdose or getting shot by the mob.

[278] Yeah.

[279] So you mentioned your spirituality.

[280] You've said that having a crisis of faith or just, the philosophical question of asking who is God, does God exist, or in thinking of the flip side of that, of mortality, what happens when we die?

[281] Those kinds of things were extremely difficult, deep things for you in terms of your development, the whole process of figuring that out.

[282] Why does it hurt so much to lose faith in God?

[283] Yeah, I would say that the seeking of God, let's say that, is an obsession for me and has been since I was young.

[284] I really feel that I'm a deep, deeply, like, committed to finding answers in life.

[285] And there's some answers that I don't think there's an answer to.

[286] And I'm also very OCD by nature, so I just don't give up to that.

[287] I'm like, well, there must be somewhere in Tibet.

[288] There's some teacher, or there's somebody out there that has the answer, or maybe it's yet to be found, I'm going to find it.

[289] I'm really, my life has been to date, probably unhealthily committed to finding answers about God or the lack thereof and mortality.

[290] It's all I sing about.

[291] It's all our records have been about.

[292] Who do you think is God?

[293] Have you ever gotten a glimpse?

[294] You know, I will say the closest, I feel like I have been to experiencing God is, and this sounds so, maybe, I don't know, I don't know how it sounds, but it's through ayahuasca for me. That's my honest answer for you.

[295] I feel like I had pretty much given up all hope of there being anything greater than, you know, us being, you know, evolving and being here and then dying and you're gone and that's it.

[296] nothingness and from nothingness we came and nothingness we go to where i am now which is there are answers to be found i don't know them like i don't know what god looks like or if god is anything to do with the word god in the way that we say it but i do believe pretty fervently that there is more to be found is it motion sensor or no i don't know what that was looked like they have all died actually do you know which one of it is it this one right here Why don't I just take it out with anything to do dark?

[297] That's fine.

[298] I'm doing to hold his chair.

[299] I really don't know.

[300] I think like something saying about this.

[301] There we go.

[302] Chinese problem.

[303] How many people does it take to what is it on scroll?

[304] Light bulb.

[305] It was hot too.

[306] It was like I was doing like the two finger like technique.

[307] Well, I'm glad you survived that.

[308] Thanks.

[309] That'd be pretty ironic if we're talking about mortality and then this would be it for you.

[310] I've never done iwaska so it's a mixture of two plants one of them is DMT but a lot of people I really respect very very intelligent people had profound experiences with ayahuasca what is that where do you go where does the mind go what the heck is up with that I'll first say that I am like I can't even smoke weed I really do not enjoy it because I hate to let go control.

[311] Like if I feel out of control in life, it's like one of my biggest weaknesses.

[312] It's like very scary for me. I don't.

[313] And some people, you know, really enjoy letting go in that way.

[314] I really don't.

[315] So I was pretty terrified to make the jump then to ayahuasca.

[316] But my wife, who I deeply respect, made a profound change through ayahuasca.

[317] And I saw it.

[318] She led the way.

[319] Yeah, and it wasn't a strange, like I think most, we have a thing in America that's like a misconception, a stigma on psychedelics where, you know, it's like it's a drug and it makes some people crazy and then you're going to be on the street and you're going to be out of your mind or you're going to become like, you know, a crazy person, basically.

[320] And I think I really bought into that notion because, again, I was raised, I wasn't even raised with cable TV.

[321] what I mean?

[322] Like, ayahuasca is very, like, I didn't, you know, you can imagine what that was like for a Mormon kid.

[323] I didn't know anything about it and never touched drugs at all and never even touched a cigarette, you know.

[324] Anyway, so I think we have this misconception about it where Americans are quick to go to their doctor and take any medication or drug.

[325] But, you know, whoa, when it comes to, like, psychedelics.

[326] Anyway, that being said, so I had that trepitation going into it, but I really love and respect my wife, and I saw it make a profound impact in her life where she suddenly was able to heal from a lot of trauma that she had.

[327] She went through a lot in her life, and it really helped her heal.

[328] But it also set her in a new path spiritually that seemed really like a place that I wanted to be.

[329] So I did it.

[330] and I did it twice the first time it didn't really have an effect on me which happens to a lot of people I guess I drank you know this little thing and there was like this shaman who came over from overseas that was really had been in the plant world for decades and was a really incredible I don't even know if he likes to be called shaman but there's supposed to be like 30, 60 minute to take effect and a few hours the journey lasts about four four hours four hours yeah so the second time i took it i took took it in i would say 20 30 minutes in exactly i started to i started to feel like i was like the dimension of what is reality the curtain was pulled open and there was a lot more to discover and it really blew my mind in a way that I think it would probably blow anybody's mind if, for instance, God descended or some Christian God or whatever it is.

[331] We all think it'd be this beautiful thing, but in reality it would probably make people super fearful and think that they've lost their mind.

[332] Like I've always, yeah, I've always, like, joked that if the Mormon God came down and told my mom, like, if God himself came down and told my mom, Mormonism is incorrect, she would say, Satan.

[333] Yeah.

[334] You know what I'm never, I think our minds are just, just not prepared for a lot of of anything that's really extreme and it was very extreme it was like the curtain of life was was cut open which scared me but then I felt very much and a lot of people that I've talked to have a similar thing where I felt very much like I was either communicating with something that was perceived as God to me or highest sense of self or mind or mother earth or, you know, it's called so many different names, but it's really, it's very, a lot of people have a very spiritual, similar experience with ayahuasca, and just in that it's like this kind of profoundness.

[335] It wasn't like, there was nothing, at least for me, that was, um, that felt like just like psychedelic, funny cartoons or something.

[336] It was like, I'm about to go on a journey and it's, and I'm going to communicate, I'm communicating with something that feels incredibly wise.

[337] showed me a lot of things in my life, kind of almost like from a bird's eye, almost like I was looking through a video camera, a younger me. There was a particular thing that it communicated to me. I really have a hard time with accepting success and not feeling, like feeling undeserving or something.

[338] I can't quite put it into words, but of my position and what I've been given, I've been given so much.

[339] and it showed me this thing from when I was young and explained to me why I am where I am now and I to this day like it did not feel like myself telling myself that that's the only way I can explain it like and there was a lot more that it showed me and that was incredibly healing for me but just to be like to put it into a short thing because there's so much to this it felt I walked away feeling very convinced that there is more to be known for sure and a lot of my deep like things that were traumatic for me didn't feel traumatic anymore specifically crisis of faith I was very angry at my parents and my community for raising me in what I perceive to be falsehoods and that and And that, I felt like the bedrock of everything I believed was ripped out for me in my 20s.

[340] And then it was like, good luck in life.

[341] But really, my parents had given me everything that they could.

[342] And they believe that very much so, still.

[343] But a naive young me was angry and felt like they had been duped, and thus I had been duped.

[344] But ayahuasca really showed me this roadmap of like, this is truth.

[345] and you're concerning yourself about a grain of sand, which is Mormonism or whatever it is.

[346] And there may be some truth in that tiny grain of sand, and there may be falsities.

[347] But so is all these other grains of sand.

[348] Like, focus on the truth.

[349] Stop focusing on these little details that are meaningless and forgive and let go of people believing in those things to begin with.

[350] I don't know if that makes sense, but that was like the core thing I was taught and to let go of control.

[351] Stop needing to control everything.

[352] And it felt like the wisdom was coming from our, elsewhere like it's really i do not believe at least in my current self i don't have that the mindfulness that i believe that exists in me to to reach a lot of the conclusions that i did and there was a lot more to it that would be for like a late night conversation with you but it's so hard to put it into you feel like a crazy person any at least anytime i talk about iwaska if someone who hasn't done it i'm like i don't even know where to begin like how do you explained to someone that you felt like that a multiple dimension type thing happened in a way that putting it into words is and none of it was words by the way that was communicated to me it was like you know people talk about um telepathy and if it existed it would be like I could communicate to you in such a deeper way I'm so confined by me having to articulate these words and put them in a sentence to you Lex and then tell you like if only I could just be like yeah and emotions do that sometimes right you could see my emotions and be like oh that that communicates a lot so that's what it felt like to me with iwaskas it felt like it was communicating to me very clear things but it wasn't like Daniel it's me yeah mother earth let me let me relax sit back let me show you but but but it very it was very clear to me what was being said and no it did not feel like me uh but maybe science smarter people than me who've done it would say well was you and blah blah like i don't know but yeah they're very convincing there's a lot of stuff in that subconscious that we haven't explored, like we haven't explored the depths of the ocean.

[353] We haven't really figured out what's that the young shadow, what's going on underneath the surface of our conscious mind.

[354] And what is that connecting to?

[355] Is that just inside our mind?

[356] Or is it some kind of, is there some kind of collective intelligence going on where all humans are connected to one kind of greater organism?

[357] Like, what is consciousness?

[358] We have a lot of hubris and thinking we understand any of it, like how the mind works at all.

[359] Like what is it, like where, what is the origin of consciousness?

[360] What is the origin of intelligence?

[361] There's a lot of hubris about this.

[362] We give each other PhDs and Nobel Prizes and congratulate ourselves as if we figured it all out.

[363] But humility is helpful here.

[364] Nevertheless, that is the question that humans have been asking for, ever since humans were humans, which is the question of mortality, the question of God.

[365] So whether it's Hamlet to be or not to be, I think that's the hardest, the most important question.

[366] Albrek Camus asked, why live?

[367] So in terms of the crisis of faith, in terms of your search for truth, in terms of some of the dark places you've gone in your mind, what's a good answer to this question?

[368] So for Camus with Mythus Sisyphus, it was the question of suicide.

[369] Is what's the purpose?

[370] Like, what's a good answer to why keep going?

[371] Especially when you're struggling, especially when you're not, when you're feeling hopeless, when you're feeling like a burden in this search for truth, where you feel like you're surrounded by lies, what's the good answer to why I live?

[372] I think...

[373] You ever found one?

[374] Well, it's the simple answer right now is to say for...

[375] It's very easy once you have kids to say, the right answer is you just, of course, you brought these kids into the world, so you have a responsibility that I feel deeply as a father to them to always be there.

[376] for as long as I humanly can and to take care of them and protect them.

[377] It's the most innate sense in me. It's wired in my animal existence.

[378] So if I take that away, right?

[379] Because that's kind of cheating.

[380] Let's put that aside because it is cheating.

[381] It's cheating.

[382] There's still some fundamental way in which you're alone.

[383] Yeah.

[384] And to that, that actually has been a real struggle for me for many years.

[385] I had a real turning point early in my career where we were flying somewhere overseas and we were in a really small plane and the lights went out and like all these red lights were flashing and the plane just started to dive.

[386] Completely like scariest plane experience I've ever been in.

[387] My manager was next to me, who's my brother, he was crying and texting his wife a goodbye.

[388] That's how like crazy this moment was.

[389] Was it real like genuine?

[390] Genuine like genuine engine went out.

[391] Plane is going down.

[392] Pilots looking like crazy in the front.

[393] And it was a really tiny jet.

[394] And like I said, my brother next to me crying, typing a text to his wife.

[395] Really, really scary.

[396] And I felt nothing.

[397] I genuinely sat there and I was like, this might actually be nice.

[398] Like I really felt like this goes down and like oh man life sucks and it's hard.

[399] And that sounds so ridiculous I know to say because I again I'm in a different place now and I see my life for what it is but at that moment I did not.

[400] So life was primarily defined by suffering it was a burden and this would be a burden lifted.

[401] I was incredibly depressed.

[402] I had been trying different medications and since I was young and I just had not found anything that was working for me and then I was in a faith crisis lost all my faith started a band that just became I wasn't ever thinking that this band I was like when you call your band Imagine Dragons you're not thinking that band's gonna be pig okay it was like I was like this was like a side project that was fun for me it was like art in college I was in school and I was like man I hate this biology class I'm going to write down band names.

[403] Like, you know what I mean?

[404] Like, it was not, hey, put everything aside.

[405] This is my career.

[406] Let's go.

[407] Like, it just, it happened.

[408] And I'm an introvert by nature.

[409] I'm really not an extroverted person who likes to go out and like, I like to be at home with a couple friends and have a late night conversation over good food.

[410] Like, that to me is a perfect night.

[411] Read a good book.

[412] Listen to a podcast.

[413] Go on a walk.

[414] you know those are things that I really really enjoy and suddenly I'm in this life where I'm like supposed to be something that I really don't want to be except for on stage which is a really fast and like strange thing to me which is on stage I feel so free and exuberant and like an extrovert and then I come off and I just feel like shrivel back into a show like it's a music does that for me and performing on a stage does that for me can we take a small tangent on that yeah yeah of course what's the high can we go through that, the introvert that wants to cuddle up and read a book.

[415] You're the frontman of one of the, if not the biggest rock bands today playing in front of huge crowds.

[416] What's the high of that and how can you land back on Earth?

[417] The high of it is incredibly beautiful to walk on a stage, sing these songs that you wrote, and see it resonate with people around you and sing with them.

[418] Different cultures, different places, celebrate life.

[419] It suddenly the world seems like a fantastic place.

[420] It feels like we're all on the same team.

[421] It's like one big hug.

[422] Yeah, it's like everybody in that room gets it.

[423] And they all, like, it just, It feels like what you want the world to be, which is just like this co -existing unit of people.

[424] And it's not even about like, you know, I just, it's incredible.

[425] It's for sure.

[426] It's incredible.

[427] And I love it.

[428] And I wouldn't do it unless I loved it.

[429] And then you walk off stage and you turn on the news and it's like, you see, you know, we're all against each other.

[430] Everybody hates each other.

[431] And it feels that way in the world.

[432] So music really, that's why live music is so important to people.

[433] That's why music is so important to people.

[434] Because even if it's just you and that person that wrote the song, you're listening to it, and the two of you feel connected, you know, it's like you're hearing Tracy Chapman sing like fast car or something.

[435] You're just like, oh my gosh, like yes, I get it.

[436] And you feel connected to that person.

[437] You don't feel alone.

[438] So that's the high of it for sure.

[439] And then you get off stage and then, you know, as my uncle is a heart surgeon, incredible heart surgeon who like writes the book.

[440] like he's like the guy that the heart surgeons talk to he's out of Nashville Tennessee he's just incredible genius man he um always worries and always reached out to me he's like musicians die all the time the reason they die you know is because you're getting on stage and your heart's doing this and your cortis and levels are doing this you're getting off stage and then you're just doing this and it's a really real thing like you get off stage and you feel like you need drugs because you're like i the world feels like oh incredibly daunting and And it's also, I'm sure, has to do with, like, some, like, health things in your heart and the cortisone levels that are so crazy.

[441] And then you come off.

[442] And it's like, I know people are like, well, then nothing's enough except meth.

[443] You know what I mean?

[444] Like, nothing is enough except heroin.

[445] Yeah.

[446] And that's why a lot of artists turn to that stuff.

[447] And I don't say it in a preach, I don't say it in a preachy way.

[448] Like, I've struggled with drug abuse in my life.

[449] And I really, I understand why artists turn to it.

[450] but also the fact that you're an introvert.

[451] So the other side of it, the fame.

[452] That's something that you also said is a double -edged sword for you.

[453] The interesting thing about fame, is that you also mentioned, is it something you can't take back?

[454] Yeah.

[455] It's a thing you can't just like go on vacation in Hawaii and it's like, consider do I like it or not?

[456] No, you're staying in Hawaii for the rest of your life and you've never been there before.

[457] Whether you like it or not.

[458] Right.

[459] So, what's that like being, you know, loved by millions and millions and millions of people, which is perhaps the best kind of fame in terms of if you had to choose the kinds of fames there are, and still being an introvert and all that kind of stuff.

[460] So what, do you feel alone, more alone being famous?

[461] Is there a loneliness to it?

[462] Yeah.

[463] I mean, it's such a funny thing because, okay, if you had asked, if we were having this conversation a couple years ago, I'd be incredibly guarded about this because the last thing I want to ever do is sound ungrateful or unaware of how much I have.

[464] And woe is the famous celebrity with money?

[465] Oh, is your life hard?

[466] Is it really telling me about how hard it is.

[467] But I'm also a place in life now where I just, like, I'm going to always just speak my truth because that's the only reason I'm here is I'm here to speak my truth.

[468] to you, so I'm going to tell you my truth, whether it's whatever it is.

[469] Well, you're human and feelings are real, and so, and that's the interesting thing.

[470] You win a lottery, what's that going to feel like?

[471] It's not about complaining, oh, it's so hard to win a lottery because you get a lot of money.

[472] No, it's still, you're human, and you get to experience these feelings, and it's fascinating.

[473] You put humans in different situations.

[474] Right.

[475] And it's also fascinating because a lot of people think, well, I would like to be famous.

[476] That's a big thing now on social media, on Instagram and so on.

[477] world wants to be famous or rich or famous and then it's very interesting to think all right well once you arrive are all the problems solved no yeah so i will tell you according to me what the pitfalls are whether it's pure or not and there are certainly some pitfalls one it's once you're there you can't go back whatever maybe that's fine because maybe you love it yeah but the real pitfall for me is that you're now you're lex and you're what everybody's perception is that Lex is and that's what you are now Lex is probably a lot more complex and complicated and has a lot more to Lex than the Lex that is the celebrity yeah so but anybody who meets you that's who you are to them and you may you may not feel this way but you may feel confined to actually have to be that person to that person like I've early in my career for a long time anytime I met someone I suddenly felt like I had to be Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons anytime I met someone, including my family now, who are also like, whoa, this is crazy.

[478] You're like Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons.

[479] And I wanted to just be the goofball that I have been my whole life with my brothers and family, but suddenly I found myself feeling like, no, I have to be this.

[480] Like, because that's who that's who this is.

[481] So you're almost like playing a role.

[482] And it's like I've heard a lot of actors talk about this while they take on a role.

[483] And then it's like they feel like they have to, they like become that.

[484] And it's a really scary thing.

[485] Like you alter who you are almost to fit the notion of other people.

[486] Because especially if a lot of artists are empaths.

[487] You know, a lot of people get into art in a deep way are empaths.

[488] And so you feel a lot of what people are feeling.

[489] And you're never wanting to burden people.

[490] And you're always wanting to deliver to that person, you know, what they want.

[491] It's like people pleasing.

[492] It goes hand in hand with a lot of like these famous.

[493] people and they get to where they were because they know how to do that.

[494] They know how to be in a room with someone and look them in the eye and make them feel like they're the only person in the room.

[495] And then now they got that role in that movie because they sat with the casting director and they were like, oh, you're so funny.

[496] Anybody, like, put on the charisma, do it all.

[497] And it's like, anyway, I'm like, I'm going on a different tangent here.

[498] But long story short, there's a lot of things that are really unhealthy about it.

[499] And then a lot of people who want the fame and the second it starts to go away then they're like who am i anymore like that was everything and now i'm like on the down and now i'm not a famous person anymore and now i hate myself now i'm going to do drugs and it's like it's like this vicious cycle like you could never be famous enough you're always going to get like there's just so much to it that i've just and i and again like i've lost friends in this career to to that for sure um and there's a certain element to sort of just on the the losing fame I've interacted with a lot of folks, especially young folks, like on YouTube.

[500] Fame is a thing that has levels.

[501] You're always trying to be a little more famous.

[502] A lot of folks who are chasing fame.

[503] It doesn't matter how famous you are always trying to chase more.

[504] And when you start to lose it, interesting things can happen if you're not self -aware, which is like, like you mentioned, you might be trying to grasp back at where you were by leaning into the formula that got you, there and so the the constraints of the image that you mentioned becomes the thing that you're now trying to lean into like and that that's actually walking away from who you really are like you lean further into being that person that's true for acting that's true for um even on like youtube which is people acting they have a role they got them to the table somehow yeah it's um it's dark but I think those are, that's just put for everybody to see, but that's a very human struggle even when you're not famous, of finding yourself, of being yourself, of not letting, not doing the people pleasing at any scale.

[505] Yeah.

[506] And being trapped by that.

[507] Yeah, and also feeling like it's never enough.

[508] I think that's something all, like, it's not just a famous thing, but it's like in the whole, like everybody deals with feeling like, when I'm here I'll be happy yeah when I get that job I'll be happy when I have that money then I'll be happy when I when I get that surgery and my nose looks like this I will be happy then it's like an a constant chase of happiness instead of happiness it's like the opposite it's opposite of self -love it's the opposite of happiness it's there's no presence to it you're constant you're never going to find it you're never going to arrive and you're just just going to live your life and then you're going to be on your deathbed and be like I was chasing the wrong thing my whole life you know I should say that podcasts are interesting in that way so for me personally because you just talk a lot you can't people that meet you they know you and they know the evolution of you and that's the same thing for like you right now dad of imagined dragons just being on a podcast like long form reveals the side that liberates you more to be yourself to like people see oh there's a human they because they you know music they have a deep connection with you they have experiences with you the way they experienced and that's who you are with them through the songs but now you get to see oh that's a that's a human being he probably gets angry he gets sad he's excited he's hopeful you know and there's a core there's a good human being with oh the whole roller coaster of emotions all there a giant beautiful mess and podcasts reveal that that's why i love podcasts like long form you get to get to hear some artists and actors and so on and some of them you get to see oh you've lost yourself in the um in the surface that's a tragedy with some actors some great actors they've they've left so much of themselves in the roles they've played that they can no longer be the thing they were before those great roles that's for sure it's hard it's hard to see so you get to see that with johnny debb with i don't know pirates he was talking about that with pirates of the caribbean that was a shift right like he's not that guy right he's forever forever forever that guy but the point is to remember that you're not and to your family which is interesting you said with your family when i see people close to me they also there is element like that while you're that They start treating you like the famous person.

[509] Yeah, you know, I'm fortunate to have my manager, who's my brother, my older brother, and my lawyer is my other older brother.

[510] And that's been helpful because, like, it's weird.

[511] It gets weird with everyone no matter what.

[512] One of the best advice I was given was by Charlie Sheen.

[513] You got advice from Charlie Sheen.

[514] Yeah, we were playing the wise sage of our generation.

[515] Wise, sage, Charlie Sheen.

[516] It was.

[517] It was really wise.

[518] I was sitting next to him, and we were playing some late -night television.

[519] He said, this was right at the beginning.

[520] He just said, boys, just mark my words.

[521] Your life is about to get really weird.

[522] That's all I said.

[523] But it stuck with me forever, and it's Charlie Sheen.

[524] So, of course, it sticks with you.

[525] And I remember being like, right, okay, Charlie Sheen.

[526] I'm not Charlie Sheen.

[527] It's not going to get weird, like, you know.

[528] But it got really, really weird, really quick.

[529] because suddenly you've existed your whole life in this way where everybody just everything you get you achieved, it was because you got it.

[530] And every conversation you had, like if someone liked you at the end of that conversation, well, it's because they liked you.

[531] If they didn't like you, it's because they didn't like you.

[532] And you can make complete peace with that.

[533] At least I could my whole life.

[534] I was like, life is a challenge.

[535] And be myself and I'm going to go through it and find some people along the way that I connect with.

[536] and others know and that social integrity is so important to us and we think it would be nice to have this and this is going back to the pitfalls of fame we think it would be nice to walk into a room and have everyone be like yeah and you could be like dumpster fire and everybody's like oh my gosh dumpster fire that was amazing how you said dumpster fire was amazing it's like it's incredibly, incredibly lonely.

[537] And it just breaks everything that you knew about humanness.

[538] And it sucks.

[539] So then you're seeking out people that it doesn't exist with.

[540] And families, the closest you can get to that for sure.

[541] But even your family, it's going to take a little bit where they're like, oh, this is a little weird.

[542] Like all my friends at work are now asking about you.

[543] And you're my young stupid brother.

[544] But now you're suddenly like the young stupid brother that they want an autograph from and stuff.

[545] And it still makes, like, they have to get over that and figure that out.

[546] And then you meet people, too, who know about this whole concept, and they're like, well, I'm going to be an asshole to him to show him that I don't subscribe.

[547] Yes.

[548] And you're dealing with, like, people who are like, dumpster fire.

[549] And the person who's like, you know, you could say something actually profound and nice, and they'd be like, that's stupid and you're an idiot.

[550] Because it's like an actual attempt to, like, show you how much they don't care.

[551] so you live in this very like this still nevertheless even when nobody knew you you were seeking for deep human connection with a small number of people and now when a lot of people know you you're still looking for deep connection with a small number of people the struggle was the same yeah can you can you speak to because you mentioned some of the dark moments what advice did you give to people who are struggling with depression and maybe for the people who love the people who are struggling with depression.

[552] So what I have found to be most successful for me, it's back to the basics of everything that the therapist or psychologist will tell you, psychiatrists will tell you right when you meet them, which is exercise every day, eat healthy, for sure, find time, make time every day to do something that you love whatever that may be whatever brings you joy and you might and when you're really depressed that actually feels like nothing because the things that brought you joy don't bring you joy anymore when I'm reeling the thick of it but um for me all like this is the cycle that I'll go through is I'll look at my life and I'll say okay what what what can I clean up all right well for me it was cutting out alcohol actually helped me a lot um I know that sounds like a big I'm not like I'm not judging anybody for that and I still you know drink on occasion but I have felt like alcohol has been very unhelpful to my mental state um feel less drive and less happiness the next day for things that I want to do I feel like it plays a lot with your serotonin so look for stuff to change clean living yeah clean living but also understanding that that sometimes it's just it just is and you just keep breathing and and it will get better with time.

[553] This two shall pass.

[554] I really think that in the winter, you know, I'm pretty sure.

[555] I mean, I've had a lot of, I've seen a lot of therapists and all of them say the same thing, which is like, you have major depressive disorder and this is what it is, but it's certainly worse for me in the winter months.

[556] So I know there's like, I can't think of the term for it, but there's a term for like seasonal depression.

[557] There it is.

[558] So I'll get to the winter and suddenly I'm like, geez, everything really sucks on a deeper level and then you know so it's like this two shall pass is another thing it's like just practice those things absolutely see a therapist that's my big like my biggest emphasis of life is to like on stage like my goal like I have a few things that I really really care about one is is is mental health health and destigmatizing therapy because for me I didn't go to therapy for a long time because I felt that it would be admitting that I was broken it'd be admitting that I was weaker than Lex, who doesn't have to go to a therapist because Lex is stronger, so be strong like Lex.

[559] You know, I would like look at all my older brothers and I looked up to them so much and there were all these incredibly successful people, plastic surgeon, an anesthesiologist, a dentist, two attorneys, Stanford, NYU, like just like incredible high standards, Eagle Scouts, you know, like they, Vallevictorians, like they just did it all.

[560] So for me, I was very, really did not want to admit.

[561] And none of them went to therapy.

[562] So it was like, what are you going to be?

[563] Are you, oh, you're broken?

[564] Are you like the weak one who can't hack life?

[565] And I think that's incredibly dangerous.

[566] And I feel like it almost cost me my life because I took so long to finally go to therapy.

[567] So I really want kids to know, hey, like the great people that achieve great things that are doing amazing things, they probably have help, almost all of them.

[568] It's like going to the gym, but it's a mental gym.

[569] So I, unfortunately, I want to be a psychiatrist when I was growing up.

[570] Maybe that's why I like podcasts.

[571] Maybe that's...

[572] I think you'd be a good one.

[573] Maybe, I would...

[574] I think you are a psychiatrist, pretty much, right?

[575] Sounds like you're a psychiatrist.

[576] I think I need more...

[577] I think actually, to be as a good psychiatrist, you also need to be seeking therapy from the...

[578] Like, you also need to be, have some stuff to work through in your mind.

[579] Right.

[580] I think, yeah, you have to have gone to some dark places.

[581] The empathize.

[582] The empathy.

[583] It's the ability to empathize, and especially if you've directly experienced that you can go to those places in your mind.

[584] Like you said, it's with the music.

[585] To be authentic, you have to really go there.

[586] What, why the therapy helps so much?

[587] What is the process of therapy, if you can just educate a little more?

[588] Is it, are you basically bringing to the surface and talking through things that you, because of the momentum of life, you just never allow yourself to speak through, to think through?

[589] Is that what therapy is?

[590] Or is this a more systematic thing?

[591] So I've been to a lot of strange different kinds of therapy.

[592] So I'll tell you my first therapist.

[593] If I could sort of interrupt, how hard is it to find a therapist that connected with you?

[594] It is, it's actually pretty hard, I think.

[595] I think it for, well, actually, I have a skewed view of that because going back to the beginning of my therapy was with a Mormon therapist.

[596] So it was very much like, well, are you reading your book of Mormon?

[597] And are you praying at night?

[598] You know what I mean?

[599] Like that was a big focus of my therapy to begin with that.

[600] And you're having.

[601] A faith crisis in the distance somewhere.

[602] I was like, well, and then...

[603] You're making it worse.

[604] Yes, the next therapist I went to was a Scientology therapist.

[605] I met my wife, and she was Scientologist at the time, and she's not anymore.

[606] She's like, it's such a funny thing to look back on because we met.

[607] I was like this Mormon missionary who just got home from his mission, and I met her, and she's a Scientologist.

[608] I was like, wow, that's bad shit crazy.

[609] Like, that stuff's crazy.

[610] And she's like, what are you talking about?

[611] That's your crazy.

[612] You're Mormon.

[613] That's bad shit crazy.

[614] And the two of us were like, huh, maybe there's something to this, the bulb of us here.

[615] Yeah, the tension actually forces you to think through like, oh, well, what is true?

[616] Yeah.

[617] And we really fell in love through that, which was like, maybe we're both on the wrong track.

[618] Let's figure this out.

[619] But before that happened, we went to.

[620] Scientologist therapist who that therapy consisted of, what have you done wrong to Asia?

[621] And they would ask me that question over and over and over and over until I'm like thinking of the deepest, darkest things that were in the recesses of my mind.

[622] This was a therapy.

[623] This was marriage therapy.

[624] Anyway, I'm not going to get into that, but it was it was Scientology therapy.

[625] So that was a different thing.

[626] And then I went to therapy therapy, like no, not attached to any religion.

[627] And that was a really great experience for me. And since then, I've been through a couple different therapists, but that was more because where I was and moving and things like that.

[628] So is it that hard to find a great therapist?

[629] Probably not.

[630] But maybe don't go to your Mormon therapist person.

[631] That's a totalist therapist.

[632] Or maybe that's the route for you.

[633] Maybe it's the route for you.

[634] I don't know.

[635] Yeah.

[636] But what is, so is it bringing stuff to the surface, basically?

[637] Oh, yeah.

[638] So I didn't even answer your question.

[639] What's the effect?

[640] Why is it so effective?

[641] Just, is there something you could put words to?

[642] Yeah, I mean, I think it's, obviously there's the common things you would think of, which is like, oh, I've been holding these things in that I don't want to tell anybody, and then I tell this person and, oh, there's relief in that.

[643] But that's really not where the real work comes from.

[644] I think the real work is meeting with someone who is well -versed and educated and understands.

[645] It's like, it's like coding.

[646] It really is.

[647] It's like someone who, like, they listen to you and they're like, well, that was a trigger.

[648] and then this became this trigger, and you're probably every time you're hearing that, thinking of this thing that happened earlier in your life, and they just will walk you through scenarios, and maybe some of them aren't right, but some of them, you'll be like, it'll resonate sometimes you're like, wow, I am feeling that because of that, and that did happen, and maybe if I call my mom and say this to her, it will make me feel better, hey, mom, this happened, it's like work.

[649] You put in work and you have hard conversations and do difficult things, and if, so if your therapy is not difficult, I actually think that's, that's not.

[650] not good therapy.

[651] Good therapy is, it's going to be a little difficult, it's work.

[652] During and after.

[653] Yes.

[654] I had this incredible therapist who was, who had, I told him when I was going to do ayahuasca, he was like, geez, you know, he had actually was a doctor before and a really well -educated, studied person who had walked away from brain doctor, what's the word for that, brain doctor?

[655] Brain surgeon?

[656] Neurologist.

[657] Oh, yeah, neurologist.

[658] And he, and he said, well, basically his belief was that ayahuasca was like basically doing therapy, like 50 sessions.

[659] He was like, it's like really intensive.

[660] He was like, I don't know if you want to do that.

[661] If you do, you can make some big steps forward, but I prefer just to do one session at a time.

[662] And so, yeah, it's hard work.

[663] And I typically, like, it's really hard for me even talk about ayahuasca, by the way, going back to that because I'm not looking to tell everybody to go to ayahuasca.

[664] It's incredibly hard.

[665] it was the scariest experience of my entire life it felt like i went to heaven but it also felt like i went to the darkest deepest hell that was incredibly scary um incredibly scary yeah she told the story of how you wrote the the song believer or like um your your childhood friend i guess uh donald like like bullying and that kind of stuff.

[666] This song, a lot of your songs are super interesting.

[667] In terms of percussion, it's super interesting.

[668] Super interesting lyrically, just how it flows.

[669] And also, pain is at the center of it.

[670] I mean, a lot of, like you said, the crisis of faith, some of these existential questions are basically behind a lot of your songs, funny enough.

[671] Maybe they're covered in metaphor.

[672] so it's hard to see, but it's there.

[673] And this song is really interesting in that way that it puts, you know, pain, you made me a believer.

[674] You break me down, you build me up, believer.

[675] That's so interesting.

[676] Maybe can you tell the story of how this song came to be?

[677] I'd love to listen to it, too.

[678] I have some questions musically about it, too.

[679] Yeah.

[680] yeah i mean um it's exactly what we're talking about with therapy i just feel like the greatest things in my life have come from the deepest hurt like losing someone you know that you love is maybe the hardest part of the human path for me at least thus far like i i when i think of okay what was the physical pain or maybe like going through financial pain or whatever i think losing someone that you really love to death is one is one of the hardest for me i would say it was the hardest and um but it also makes you look at your life completely differently and alter your life at least for me in ways that were really healthy um being more present uh letting go of things that were meaningless trying to control what other people think about you like wasting your time on things like that and you suddenly see like wow like time i got small amount of time like how do i want to spend it i'm going to spend it in the best way i know how and that's it's it's a basic common concept that's been said a million times over in a million different ways but that's pretty much what i was trying to say with believer which is like i've lost faith in faith in everything uh at that time period and you know or previous to that time period and then i was rebuilding my faith or my my spiritual thought process and it was after iwaskin it was like you know finding being a believer and that and that's not necessarily like a believer in god or a believer in heaven and hell or anything like yeah but a believer in more believing in in goodness believing in that there is some light like and and again those words like they're just words and i wish there were better words to formulate the thought that I'm trying to express, but just more.

[681] Like, the thought of me dying, for me, I don't fear it.

[682] I don't fear it.

[683] But actually, I really fear not seeing my kids again.

[684] I'll say that.

[685] That is fearful for me. I feel like I love so deeply these children that the thought of, like, leaving them for me is a scary thought.

[686] or something they're they're kind of good reminder how much you love life actually yeah and you don't always remember that yeah and uh i think having kids is not for everyone for absolutely for sure but for me and especially you shouldn't be having kids to give yourself a reason to live i mean like i feel like dying i'm gonna have a kid like you might feel more like dying after having a kid actually you know it's pretty stressful uh but it is a place to like i have changed a lot of people that I've known that it gave them a new intensity of gratitude for life for sure.

[687] Do you mind if we, I'll return to the pain of the believer.

[688] You might if we listen to a little bit of the songs?

[689] Do you write the music first or the words first?

[690] It's the same time, which is very typical for me. By the way it opens, like how, you know, intensity of openings.

[691] You ever think about like what the first few seconds sound like?

[692] Is that something that, like when you imagine a song, is it the opening you imagine?

[693] No, it's kind of a, just a, I never think opening, I never think final, I think soundscape of how I'm feeling right now.

[694] So it could be the middle of the song for all I know when I'm, you know, when I'm doing that.

[695] But my process for me is very much lyrics and melody and music really come at the same time.

[696] Like, I, by same time, I mean, I'm, I'm, uh, as I'm expressing maybe, you know, I'm feeling like, like, like, it's not that simple, but it's like, I'll, I'll hear it.

[697] Like, it's like, here's all the orchestra and you're kind of just pressing all the buttons at once.

[698] And melody in my voice is just one of those instruments.

[699] You know what I mean?

[700] It's just utilizing one instrument.

[701] So you've seen the landscape.

[702] And that landscape includes melody, includes percussion.

[703] Lyrics a little bit, or lyrics?

[704] I will be words to begin, like a word here and there.

[705] And I'll be like, you know, I'm like, what's a word that I'm thinking of when I'm feeling this soundscape?

[706] And I always create with no theme in mind.

[707] I'm never, for better or for worse, just my process is I'm sitting down and I'm writing a journal entry.

[708] Simple as that.

[709] It's like, when you sit down to write a journal entry, are you?

[710] sitting down and you're like, Kev, I've had all these words here that I'm going to put on the page and I'm going to order it in this way.

[711] My theme for my journal entry today is going to be this.

[712] Maybe some people do, but I don't.

[713] My journal entry is, I don't know what I'm going to say.

[714] How was today?

[715] Well, man, today was this and feeling this.

[716] And now that I think about that, I'm really angry about that.

[717] That hurt my feelings when this.

[718] You're like, you're formulating it as you go and that's the joy of it.

[719] And for me, that's what music is.

[720] So I'll sit down, not thinking, hey, I've been wanting to write a song that has a hard beat or I've been wanting to write a song this anthemic or I've been wanting to write a song that it's like how am I feeling right now and it's joyful with is the feeling joyful to you or is it struggle because you just made it sound like it's I think uh joyful or at least fulfilling yeah fulfilling is the word I was kind of looking for but there was because a lot of artists talk about really like you talk about writers cathartic that's the word I was it feels like having a good moment with a therapist where you're like, okay, I'm expressing this thing that I just need to express.

[721] For whatever reason, I need to express this.

[722] The majority of the songs I write for the record are never heard.

[723] I write over 100 songs a year.

[724] I release 20 songs every three years.

[725] So, I don't know, what's that percent?

[726] 20 out of 300.

[727] Come on, Lex.

[728] Less than 10 percent.

[729] Less than 10 percent, yeah.

[730] Eight, seven or something?

[731] Yeah.

[732] Anyway, so it's...

[733] And then like getting together with the band and like getting them selected down is really what the process has.

[734] So you're really writing a song per one to three days, kind of maybe a song that you can't quite figure out the puzzle love that's going to last a little longer.

[735] I finish every idea.

[736] Yeah.

[737] You finish every idea.

[738] I do.

[739] I finish every idea.

[740] So it's not just like laying completely unfinished.

[741] I could open my computer.

[742] for you right now, and I would show you hundreds and hundreds of songs that you would listen to and think, that sounds like a song.

[743] It's like there's rhythm, there's melody, there's multiple instruments, there's lyrics.

[744] Like, I, it's the same thing as, is for coding for me, which is music, which is, I can't walk away until I've completed it.

[745] But it's finished.

[746] My, well, finished is, finished is a, yeah, yeah, but it sounds like a song.

[747] I certainly do a lot more with it after, with the band, we're pulled all apart, but it's a song.

[748] It'll be like, you know, you'll listen to it and say, okay, that was a song.

[749] I get, you understand what it is, for sure.

[750] Do you think this is a painful question from a fan perspective?

[751] Do you think there's genius on your computer that you walked away from that you just didn't notice it?

[752] Like, do you think there's truly great songs that you've written that you just didn't notice how great they are?

[753] I think greatness is something that I feel I'm, I don't feel like I've achieved greatness.

[754] Genuine.

[755] I'm not saying that to you in a way of like humility.

[756] Like Michael Jordan time.

[757] No, genuinely I feel like I am on a journey right now to find who I am.

[758] And I'm 34 and it's like I don't even, I haven't begun that journey.

[759] I feel like I'm just starting that.

[760] But that being said, I certainly.

[761] don't know the right answer to what songs are, you know, beloved or good to the masses.

[762] Like, imagine dragons is such a massive entity.

[763] It's like, there have been a, I will say this, there are a couple times where I fought really hard to decide on the single, really hard.

[764] Or I always fight for what goes on the record, always.

[765] I always put the record together, and that's the record that I wanted to be.

[766] And me and the guys come up with that.

[767] And it's nobody else has influence, no manager, no label.

[768] the single everybody wants to have a saying your label wants to have a saying it your manager wants to have a saying it and i have fought really hard over that and i've been wrong before and i've been right before um but as far as songs that are that i haven't put out i mean because you can imagine so many songs you think you think of so many Beatles songs that are like some of their grace while my guitar gently weeps right let me i'm trying to imagine weird sounding not that interesting, possibly songs.

[769] The majority of what we put them.

[770] Honestly, it may be, our best stuff is that we don't put out, for instance, because our band is such a, it's such a complex question.

[771] I really don't know, actually.

[772] I don't know.

[773] Maybe one day I'll die and people will look and be like, I hate it Imagine Dragons, but now I listen to that song, I really like that, which they would put that out.

[774] Or maybe they'll be like, oh, it all sounds like shit.

[775] I don't really know.

[776] Well, that's, sorry, it is a tragic thing.

[777] That's why I ask it, which is like, there could be some great incredible things that that will take you a long time to rediscover, to realize how great they are.

[778] And it's also the tragic aspect of being an artist is you don't know if you get fame or all that kind of stuff, you don't know what's going to really move people because ultimately what you want is to connect with people and you don't know what that's going to be.

[779] It's hard.

[780] I mean, to me it's To me, it's tragic.

[781] Just as a fan of yours to see, maybe I wonder if there's, like, incredible stuff there.

[782] Just as it is tragic to see great artists throughout history who didn't get recognition until they died.

[783] It's like, because they basically held on, you know, Franz Kafka was extremely self -critical.

[784] A lot of these folks had an idea of what's good and not, and they were wrong.

[785] Right.

[786] They had genius.

[787] They weren't entirely wrong because they became sufficiently popular, but, you know, It's interesting.

[788] I try to genuinely to release the songs that move me the most.

[789] Got it.

[790] I'll say that.

[791] You're your own audience.

[792] Yeah, I try to put out the songs that make me feel the most.

[793] Like, I feel that.

[794] That's my only gauge.

[795] Because it's so subjective of, like, what is good, what's the, nobody knows the song if the masses are going to like.

[796] Nobody knows that formula.

[797] Nobody knows it.

[798] So for me, it's always what makes me feel something.

[799] One of the main lessons Rick Rubin taught me when we worked with him on this record was he would say, his main point that he would continually bring up, like, because he's not the type person to be like, that's a bad song or that's good.

[800] It's just not who Rick Rubin is.

[801] It's more like, there's more nuance to it.

[802] He would say, I don't really believe you on that song.

[803] That's what he would say.

[804] He would say, and I knew that was like, that song's a no go.

[805] He'd say, and I would genuine there was a time he said it and it was about a song that I really like I really felt it and meant it when I said it but he didn't believe it when he heard it and that was enough for I was like man well the end of the day like I can believe it all I want but if the listener doesn't feel the honesty in it just like we were talking about earlier I think the most important ingredient is is this truth perceived as truth to someone else and if it's not the bullshit indicator goes and you're like I don't care I don't throw it away I don't care go through like line by line the lyrics every single that was excruciating for me why was that excruciating well first of all it's Rick Rubin so you're in the room with like Rick Rubin who's done a lot of the greatest of all time and um so I had to first just put that aside and be like okay well you've done a lot of my favorite records but still you're you're human and not everything you say is going to be right you know I and I'm a strongly opinionated person and so is Rick.

[806] And so when the two of us were sitting down in a room together, it was, you know.

[807] But the lyrics, which is interesting.

[808] So it's not the entire composition, but just like, let's look at the lyrics.

[809] What I mean here?

[810] Yeah.

[811] Oh, yeah, because he would look over every, there was like, and there was battles he won, battles that he didn't win, and maybe he was right.

[812] I don't know.

[813] I mean, there was, for instance, I'll give you an example.

[814] There was a song on the record called Number One.

[815] Rick will probably laugh when he hears this.

[816] because this was a big one that we kept going back and forth on.

[817] But this will give you a good insight of what it's, what it was like, what it was like.

[818] And there's a line in it that says, I don't know.

[819] The chorus is, I don't know what I meant to be.

[820] I don't need no one to believe.

[821] When it's all been said and done, I'm still my number one.

[822] And he was like, nah, it just makes me cringe when I hear that.

[823] He's like, I just, like, do you have to be like, can it not be like, you're still my number one?

[824] And I was like, no, it's not about anybody else.

[825] Like, you know, it's about, like, self -love.

[826] He's like, yeah, but, like, do you need to, like, talk about self -love like that?

[827] And I was like, well, I kind of, I feel like I need to.

[828] He's like, well, but, you know, there's something else we could say there.

[829] Like, we just kept, you know, we kept coming back to this song, okay?

[830] I was like, and I changed it.

[831] I tried changing it.

[832] Like, what did I change it to?

[833] It was like, it wasn't your still, my number one because it just made no sense.

[834] It wasn't about some love thing or, like, someone else.

[835] I changed it to something else.

[836] And it just, it was the one thing that I was like, I'm really sorry, Rick.

[837] Like, I get it.

[838] And if it sounds cringy to you, it's definitely it sounded cringy to other people too, and that sucks.

[839] But I don't know how else to say this in a way that I want to put that song out anymore.

[840] But there were other songs, for sure, where Rick was like, that or this, that word, feels a little trite.

[841] You already said that once.

[842] Can you say it in a different way?

[843] It was really helpful.

[844] And that, yeah.

[845] It's really interesting because you're trying to say something so simply.

[846] and yet not make it cringe.

[847] And that's really hard.

[848] That's a strange art form because you want to say some of the greatest loss songs.

[849] I mean, we looked at the Without You song.

[850] I mean, the whole thing is cringy.

[851] If you just read it on paper, like it's a court report or something.

[852] But yet it's not, especially one's sung maybe.

[853] But no, there's something about, yeah, maybe.

[854] Song in a way you believe it.

[855] when you believe it but also written in a way that's singable in the way you believe it so it's like it rolls off it just comes out in a way that just feels like silky and no word catches your mind as cringy yes it's just uh but then music um i think great speeches are like that too or just you know conveying communicating ideas simply that's the that's the art is to not be cringy.

[856] So interesting.

[857] And then you're, because, like, when you're raw and real, it might have first feel cringy.

[858] So the battle there, and that's where you see people fail.

[859] Like, just regular artists.

[860] Like, I don't know, at Open Mic.

[861] I got to Open Mic, so I just listen to the musicians.

[862] Like, when they write songs, like, they fail that test.

[863] They write simple stuff, but it's cringy.

[864] Why?

[865] I wonder what was that.

[866] like what is that i'm telling you lux i tried to explain this to my brother the other day because it's the same thing with a live performance if i'm not in my right headspace and i walk on stage and i walk up and let's say i say something and i do this yeah because i'm like this is the move right i'm like this is the move the crowd doesn't care in fact the crowd's like that's cringy when you did this but if i wasn't thinking about doing this and i went up there and i said something and I really meant it and my body was like, I can't explain this to you and it's so silly to say out loud but it's people will resonate to it when it's real.

[867] And when it's acted, you could do it the exact, the motion could look the same, your eyes look the same, but there's something about the energy that people know.

[868] They know if it's real or not.

[869] Yeah, people have, like you said, incredible bullshit detectors.

[870] 100%.

[871] I'll go on a stage and if I'm not in the right headspace to be real, it won't be a good show.

[872] If I'm real, then it's a good show.

[873] It's simple as that.

[874] Let's go through the song.

[875] Like I said, great opener.

[876] So you had this in your mind, this landscape?

[877] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[878] The beat was first on this.

[879] What about the first and the second?

[880] Like, first things first, second.

[881] The first line I wrote was first things first.

[882] I don't know why it just was like, and then I was like, oh, that principle of, you know.

[883] Get great line.

[884] Second thing, second, don't you tell me what you think that I could be.

[885] I'm the one at the sale.

[886] I'm the master of my seat.

[887] I'm the master of my seat.

[888] My dad had that in his office.

[889] He had this saying that was something about the sailor and being the master of a sea that I always loved.

[890] There you go.

[891] Simple statement.

[892] Yeah.

[893] Zero cringing it.

[894] It's so powerful.

[895] It's so simple.

[896] I'm the master of my city.

[897] This whole song is just trivial but in terms of lyrically but extremely powerful and original unique sounding something about the words just even you don't have to actually sing them you just read them and then raw I was broken from a young age that myself into the masses writing my poems for the few that look at me took to me shook of me feeling me singing from the heartache from the pain taking my message from the I can't, why am I reciting your words to you?

[898] But the percussionist throughout it, the, and that was there in the beginning.

[899] The percussion is almost in the lyrics, yeah.

[900] And I'm a very percussive singer because I was a drummer first.

[901] Before I, I think, same with Dave Grohl, probably a similar thing, which is, I think in percussive sense a lot when I'm writing.

[902] And I also was, before I could play an instrument, I would beatbox.

[903] and I think Michael Jackson did this too actually I've heard in the studio that he was very similar but a lot of what I do is percussive because my brain thinks it percussively first a little more almost like a drum like tica dun dun and then you lay words on that yeah yeah this this building it's almost like drums it's all building to the chorus what about the word pain when did that come to you pain you made me you made me a believer yeah just the idea of I just wanted to I really one of the things that a lot of the songs that I like I like divisiveness for instance not always but there's time where I want someone to hear a song and I want them to either love it or hate it, I really don't want them to be in the middle ground.

[904] A lot of the songs that, like, a lot of my favorite songs are divisive songs.

[905] And so, for instance, with pain, I want you to hear that and almost like, it's like, whoa.

[906] You know what I mean?

[907] It's something either somebody's going to hear in there and they're like, man, I just don't want to hear that like that or it's like, oh, I felt that so deeply when he said that in that way because it sounded like this and and when you think of the word pain it's like that's a that's a that's a when i at least for me when i hear that word i it carries a lot of weight carries a lot of weight so i wanted to sing it with a lot of weight and to come into that chorus with like like it's a striking moment um and i'm also a tenor singing as sorry i'm a baritone singing as a tenor So, that's where that natural, like, gruffness comes from as I'm singing out of my range, really, up in my head voice, and it carries a lot of weight with it because of the baritone.

[908] Can I ask you a specific sort of the pause before the pain?

[909] It's really interesting, because it's like a double...

[910] What, is that, is that, how much work does that take to get that right?

[911] That's incredible, because it's like, so you're kind of seeing the beauty through the...

[912] And then that, whatever that sound is the...

[913] Right, the bass being rolled off.

[914] Yeah, I actually, when I first was approaching the chorus, it was actually seeing...

[915] Took him and feeling missing with a heart egg from the pain, taking my message from the veins, speaking my lesson from the brain, seeing the beauty through the...

[916] Seeing the beauty through the pain, you made me a...

[917] Like, it came in on one.

[918] I'm not singing it right right now, but it did not wait.

[919] And it felt like it didn't hit in the way that it was supposed to hit.

[920] Because you predict that, right?

[921] You're like, you're waiting to you.

[922] The beauty through the pain, you made me a. Right, it was like, beauty through the pain, you made me, made me. So I wanted to feel a little more like striking.

[923] Like, again, it's like that thing that makes you kind of do this a little bit.

[924] You're like, huh?

[925] But once you hear it a few times, you're like, ah, ah, and you predict.

[926] You know what I mean?

[927] It's like, I'd rather someone hear our song the first time and be confused by it.

[928] So they'd play it the second time.

[929] and then they're like oh okay you know what i mean like i really don't want you know i'd rather turn some people off along the way and then the people who come along for you are going to feel more committed i think it's just an interesting like it feels gutsy to insert silence you know yeah that's what makes it you know it's like the greatest speakers of all time are like and i told you right you would know you it's Like, you're like, oh, yeah.

[930] What is that?

[931] Yeah, that's so interesting to do that just at the right time.

[932] And then pain, right?

[933] Man, this is, it's a brilliant song.

[934] Did you know it was a good song when you wrote it out of the thousands of songs you've written?

[935] You know, it's always the same thing for me, which is like, I'll listen.

[936] If I want to listen to the song and I want to listen to it a lot of times, then those are the songs we put out.

[937] and I only want to listen to the songs and make me feel something whether or not it's like our single that did the very worst of all our singles was the song that I wanted to listen to the least but it made the most sense as a single which was all the wrong reason to choose it right it was the I bet my life it was the single off our second album and that song was originally written it was just a guitar and a vocal and it was very just quiet and laid back and we were like well let's try to dial it up let's try to produce it and we overproduced that song.

[938] We self -produced it as a band and we overproduced.

[939] And that song, I mean, it's, it did good, you know, in terms of a song, but for us, it did not do good compared to other songs.

[940] And I really look back at that and learned a lesson from that.

[941] It's like, if I don't want to listen to the song, that's a sign already.

[942] If you don't want to listen to your own song, it's probably not a good song.

[943] Yeah.

[944] You said your dad, um, elsewhere in today, I just said that your dad early on was a kind of the early Rick Rubin.

[945] So when you were starting out, he gave you feedback.

[946] He listened.

[947] What did you learn about music about life from your dad?

[948] My dad is a really quiet farm.

[949] Grew up on a farm.

[950] Very humble.

[951] I think he starts every sentence by saying, this is just my two cents pretty much you know what i mean it's like like take it or leave it like you know what i mean he's that that kind of a sense like there's humility and everything and it's real for him it's not like false humility he really i really feel like when he's saying things he really is like maybe this isn't any worth to you son and he means it but here it is and it's always gold and i'm like wow dad that's incredible you know so what in those early days of you like so you were like 12 or something like that, like starting to write song.

[952] I wasn't showing my music to anyone.

[953] I started writing my own when I was 12, and I probably wrote for at least, let's say, six months or something.

[954] And I had written probably, I don't know, like a lot of songs during that.

[955] What was the topic, by the way?

[956] Love, anger.

[957] No, it was all sad.

[958] No, it was the first song I ever wrote went, um, All by himself, no other one around.

[959] He stood all alone.

[960] When would he be found?

[961] Did he want company?

[962] Or was he fine on his own?

[963] Everyone needs a friend.

[964] So why was he all alone?

[965] You know what it is?

[966] But I was like a 12 -year -old with, I just felt, like depressed for the first time and I was and I just was like so I discovered the blues as a yeah right right it really was like my sense of the blues at that time for sure like bad version of the blues but it was like 12 year old kid with a bunch of acne and like I just like I hated going to school I felt like that I just had not found myself it sounds like a great song by the way I wanted to keep looking at I forgot I don't know about that but um yeah what was your dad At which point did you begin to share it with your dad?

[967] A lot of the songs that I wrote in the beginning were very much like Bobby McFerrin like that because our mic was in a part of the house where I couldn't bring over the piano and the only instrument I played at the time was the piano.

[968] So I would do everything with my voice.

[969] But then I started teaching myself the guitar in that beginning like six -month period just watching my brothers play in their garage bands in the basement.

[970] And then I started to write songs a little more like Enya vibes.

[971] Like stack my voice like 20, 30 times.

[972] And like Enya meets like Jare.

[973] which is who my dad would listen to a lot, John Michael Jarre, this is an incredible synth genius.

[974] But anyway, so I finally got my, like, gall up enough to show it to my dad one day after work.

[975] And I got very little at my dad because there were nine kids and he worked from 8 a .m. until 6 p .m. We'll come home very tired and here's nine kids that are like, dad, you know, and you're the young one.

[976] You're just going to miss. I was in the middle kind of too, so it's even, you know, middle child thing.

[977] But I sat him down and I was like, hey, dad, I just want to, like, kind of show you a song.

[978] And he was like, oh, you know, he didn't know I was writing anything and I showed it to him and he listened and he took it off and he really looked at me. It was like, that was really good.

[979] He was like, I thought, and this, when you said this, it made me feel this, he was like, and that did it.

[980] I probably would have given up music.

[981] Like, I looked back.

[982] That was a very pivotal moment for me. I was like in a place where I was like, is this good, bad?

[983] I don't know.

[984] Maybe it's so embarrassing and terrible.

[985] and I was already writing lyrics there were a little like overly metaphorical to hide that I was dealing with faith crisis because I thought okay I'm gonna show this to dad I don't want my dad to know I'm like questioning the truthfulness of Joseph Smith I'm not gonna be like Is Joseph Smith a real prophet Is Mormonism true I don't really know Like you know what I was like writing way overly metaphorical But because my dad really validated it And he was a no bullshit person So I knew when my dad said that I was like you know what At least my dad really actually thinks this is cool And I really trusted my dad's taste and thought everything he listened to was cool.

[986] So I was like, wow, I'm going to keep doing this.

[987] And I just showed it to my dad for years and years.

[988] And still to this day, I send every song to my dad.

[989] So he underneath it with the feedback is always like, ooh, I like this idea.

[990] I like this.

[991] It's just a positive, like a. Not always positive, no. But like underneath it, do you sense the positivity?

[992] Because I think that's - Always.

[993] Never mean, never malicious.

[994] You know, there's like there's two types of criticism.

[995] there's like criticism that's just like you're looking to be hurtful to someone and then there's criticism that's like really important for art it's the type of criticism that's like you see the value in what's happening and if it's honest then you can you maybe communicate with that person like i see what you're trying to do with that you know it's not even like you have to say that or whatever like butter it up but it's like my dad would just give me the this honest criticism that would be like you know it it certainly wasn't.

[996] always good, but I knew it was always well -intentioned.

[997] I guess that's how I would say.

[998] So you mentioned, made me re -listen to it.

[999] I'm a big fan of Cat Stevens.

[1000] You made me re -listen to father and son.

[1001] I probably all sons have issues to work through with their fathers.

[1002] And you said that you connect with this song in particular.

[1003] I think, so you're a father now.

[1004] What is it about the song that connects with you?

[1005] For people, let me play it.

[1006] Let me play a little bit.

[1007] people should educate themselves on cat stevens oh my gosh right on the peace train the best the best you think this is a hopeful a sad song i hear it's hopeful i hear it as a loving father saying just what his son needs to hear it's not time to make a change just relax take it easy you're still young that's your fault there's so much you have it's like that calm wisdom yeah there's time it wise if you want you can marry look at me i am old but unhappy and just the way he says that like that should be a corny line but it's not corny at all it's like yeah look at me i'm old then but i'm happy it's not easy to be calm when you found something going on yeah i mean the simplicity there and And it, yeah, but it's such a contrast with, what's his name, Harry Chapin, with the Cats in the Cradle, which is like the sadness of, so this feels like there's a wise, calm connection between father and son, right?

[1008] With Cats in the Cradle, I don't know if you remember that song, he learned to walk while I was away, and he was talking before I knew it, and as he grew, he'd say, I'm going to be like you, dad, you know, I'm going to be like you.

[1009] And the idea of that song is that he does become like his dad, which is funny, you know, something you've said.

[1010] But in a different way, you become too busy to make that connection.

[1011] His dad was too busy to make a connection with his son.

[1012] In a not a dramatic way, in a very kind of calm, nonchalant way.

[1013] Like, you just don't have time.

[1014] You're busy at work, you're providing for the family and so on.

[1015] There's connection, but you don't really get, form that, like, depth of connection.

[1016] And then the father, when the son shows up from college and all that kind of stuff, he doesn't spend any time with the father, all that.

[1017] And just the calm sadness of that, that we live, we can live parallel lives and never quite connect.

[1018] And there is a little bit of that in father and son with Kat Stevens, too, you know, like when the son is saying, from the moment that I, could talk I was ordered to listen.

[1019] I always remember listening to that line, feeling like that really moved me. But the beauty of that song is it shows, it's kind of like the theme of what I feel like we've talked about since the second you got here, which is something I really, like, I don't know why it's such an important theme in my life right now, but the duality of just understanding that you don't understand someone else's situation.

[1020] And there's truth to both sides.

[1021] Like there's truth to what the father is saying to the son.

[1022] He's, like, saying these things, and he's like, I'm looking out for you.

[1023] I love you.

[1024] Take your time with these things.

[1025] If you want to get married, you can.

[1026] Like, these things will bring you have.

[1027] And then the son saying, listen, like, I want to pave my own path.

[1028] I want to do this.

[1029] Like, why are you telling me this?

[1030] Like, the son's not wrong because there's a lot of parents who tell their kids what to do and they're wrong.

[1031] You know what I mean?

[1032] Like, and they don't let the kid form the path that they need to.

[1033] But should you not be a parent?

[1034] Like, you know what I mean?

[1035] There's just two sides to every.

[1036] a there's a thing and it is annoying when you're older you get you get to see people do all the same things and you could say well is this is this is a phase and you'll see that this actually will end up in this way you can like predict how the life unrolls and it's very annoying for young people to hear especially because it's probably going to be true it's like no it's not going to be like this no I'm going to be different but then you become that person but that's doesn't mean they also let them live that life, let them make the mistakes.

[1037] But they're not mistakes, actually.

[1038] They're like beautiful deviations from the path that they end up on.

[1039] And those make the path.

[1040] Do you have advice for young folks today?

[1041] You've had an incredible dark journey and a successful one.

[1042] loving one, and one of the most successful artists in the world, is their advice you can give to young people today that would like to find themselves to that way, especially if they're struggling?

[1043] I thought you said device at first, and I was like, honestly, I feel like that device is not helping.

[1044] Maybe everybody should get away, throw away their devices.

[1045] Advice.

[1046] I would just say, like, what I emphasize to my kids is, I really, really want my kids to just learn to love themselves.

[1047] It's easier said than done.

[1048] It's really easy to pick on yourself in life.

[1049] It's really easy to look in the mirror and wish you looked different, wish you were more successful like that person over there, wish that, you know, wish a lot of things.

[1050] And people that I see that really succeed at life, really succeed truly and that doesn't mean they're making money necessarily or they're succeeding and you know they're talking to a lot of people like their success success to me is like happy and real they have real self -love you meet you know when you meet someone you meet rick for instance you meet rick rumin rick has a calmness about him and it's funny because everybody sees him as this like zen master like rick is just a really loving person who also loves himself and has self -confidence because you just see it and it resonates and that's why he draws people and that's why he's so great in the studio because you know his intentions always as an artist when a producer comes in you're like well whoa whoa what are your intentions what are you trying to do are you trying to get a hit out of me for the label or you're trying to make me something are you trying to like make me this so you can prove this about yourself like there's a lot in that dynamic and the reason that rick is so good is because you know his intentions and his intentions come because Rick has that self -love.

[1051] So for me, find the things about yourself because they're there that you love and really focus in on them.

[1052] And it's not selfish.

[1053] Like I feel like I was brought up in a family too where it was like never look inward, like be selfless, like serve, serve, serve, which by the way, is a true principle of life.

[1054] I think you love yourself more when you serve more.

[1055] I think that's really evident in life.

[1056] but also spend time doing the things that make you happy take time every day to go on that walk that you need to go on listen to listen to like for me that's something i need i need i know if i do that i'm going to be a better dad because i did i did i gave myself some some love back in life and uh and i just forgive yourself i think forgive yourself because everybody messes up everybody hurts others everybody says unkind words at times everybody everybody everybody fails all the time and if you think that you're going to not you're wrong and you're eventually going to and you're either going to punish yourself for it every day and be a lesser version of what you could be or you're going to forgive yourself for it and if you learned that that's not something you want and try not to do it again if you do it again and you're probably going to do it again whatever that is you're going to gossip about that person you're going to feel bad because then you gossiped about someone like is this something you could say in terms of self -love, is there a role for being critical on your, like, that, those demons of, like, self -criticism, do you need a little bit of that?

[1057] Tom Waits talks about, I like my town with a little drop of poison.

[1058] Right.

[1059] You need a little poison?

[1060] Or is it, is that silly or a mentalization of poison?

[1061] No, I mean, it's, look, it's my, my biggest thing in life that's, has been, like, the thing that I've worked on the hardest for the last few years is to not be overly critical.

[1062] Um, and, and, to let go of control i i think um it's really easy to kill an artist it's really easy to kill an artist like if my dad would have sat down with me that day and even if he would have just sat down and then like good job son okay it's not silly right like i don't i didn't not everybody has a dad who's going to ever do something or put in the time or whatever but that would that might have altered everything for me like my dad taking the extra time to be to this give me a thoughtful response opposed to kids know kids know when you're when you're just like trying to get out of the room or whatever i knew he wasn't and that did a lot so yeah but is that is that a huge is not what makes the artist it's the fragility of it that like uh would you have it any other way no no i i agree with you i think that that's what that uh that's the beauty of art but i think also on the same token it's like i went to i went to music cares recently which is a charity for musicians that are down on their luck that maybe were successful at one point or i've never been successful and they can't be able to pay the bills and this charity contributes money to these artists aspiring artists or artists who've had drug issues and like there's a lot that they do but and there was a statistic that they told it was staggering to me which was, I think it was 75 % of artists, musicians, say they struggle with severe depression.

[1063] That's really high.

[1064] I don't know what the national average is, but I would guess that that's higher than national average per occupation.

[1065] So I just think there's a tricky balance.

[1066] There's a tricky balance in art. So yeah, of course, like, it's a necessary thing, the fragility of it.

[1067] all but um yeah i i wonder because i'm extremely self -critical and i sometimes ask myself the question i've romanticized it or rather i've learned to be for it to be productive to channel it into productivity but i i wonder if there's better ways to do that and i also wonder if it's eventually the thing that destroys me like if long term right if it's a healthy thing it might be useful when you're sort of actively fighting the battles of the day, for me it's engineering challenges and all that kind of stuff.

[1068] But then when you're sitting back and enjoying life with family and so on, is that going to be, like, do you need to find that self -love, like ability to kind of silence the voice of criticism in your head?

[1069] You know what?

[1070] I really, you're making a good point.

[1071] And I think that the middle ground is you need self -doubt to push you to be better.

[1072] I do believe that, like, for instance, if I, if I believed, I've hit my, like, when you're like, these are a song on there that you think is genius.

[1073] If I think I've written a genius song ever, I think I'd probably stop.

[1074] I think I'd be like, you know what?

[1075] Did it.

[1076] I wrote, um, uh, what's that perfect song?

[1077] Uh, by drum button.

[1078] If I'd written Imagine, I'd probably be like, that's it.

[1079] Did it.

[1080] All right.

[1081] Perfect song has been written.

[1082] That's the best thing I'll ever do.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] So the fact that, that there is like self -criticism and criticism outside, I think is necessary.

[1085] 100 % for sure.

[1086] It pushes you.

[1087] It pushes you, it pushes you.

[1088] It's just finding the right middle ground for that young aspiring artist to also not feel squashed and to be heard and to love, just to, not even to feel squashed, just to love themselves.

[1089] So that when they're in the room playing the song, they'll believe it because they believe themselves.

[1090] They love themselves enough that they believe it.

[1091] And then they'll do a great.

[1092] And then the song will come out great and they'll do a great performance.

[1093] I have to ask, it's one of the very interesting aspects of your life of the way you put love out there in the world.

[1094] What is at the core of your support for the LGBT community?

[1095] A couple things.

[1096] So one, growing up from a young age, in the artist community, a lot of my closest friends were LGBTQ, starting in middle school.

[1097] and I think a lot of the best hardest in the world are LGBTQ and that's just it's not a secret like it's just like the artist community is filled with lots of LGBTQ people so I think being raised in that community in that my friends struggled with their faith and their sexuality really opened up my eyes to how incredibly hard that path is for instance okay when i was in high school there was someone who went in front of uh who was LGBTQ and was Mormon and felt like there was not a place for them in the church uh they felt like the path you know when when you're being told that that's evil and you believe it because you believe in your faith and you feel like it's unchangeable you're putting a kid in a situation where there's really no good resolution it's either be alone for the your life, or marry outside your sexual preference, which I don't want to marry a man. Like, if I was forced to marry a man, I'm like, I don't want to.

[1098] I don't want to be married to a man because I'm heterosexual.

[1099] So you're forcing a kid into a situation where it's very dangerous.

[1100] Long story short, this kid went in front of the Las Vegas Mormon Temple and shot himself, killed himself.

[1101] That impacted our community.

[1102] And not just that, but it was like severe bullying to, to LGBTQ kids.

[1103] In the 90s, it was especially different.

[1104] Like, there's still bowling, don't be wrong, but man, like bowling in school.

[1105] I don't really know actually what it's like in schools now.

[1106] Maybe the bowling is just as bad as it what is in the 90s.

[1107] But there was like, it was like I would hear all the time, like the F slur being slung out at people who were LGBTQ all the time.

[1108] And I wasn't even LGBTQ.

[1109] cute so i you know it's just seeing that i think that every um any social justice issue takes all sides it takes all pieces of the puzzle if only the pieces of the puzzle contributed are from the side that is affected i don't believe that we'll ever have resolution we're doing a shit job and we need to do better and that's just uh that's that's that's the reality of it So that's part of the reason.

[1110] I also have family who's LGBTQ, and it's just something that's been part of my path.

[1111] And I feel like I'm a big believer and take the path that is presented to you.

[1112] And this was just something that came up in my life a lot.

[1113] When I met my wife, she was living with her two best friends who were LGBTQ, who really didn't want her to marry me because I was Mormon.

[1114] And at the time, it was prop eight, which was Mormons were fighting against LGBT, gay marriage.

[1115] And so that, then they didn't come.

[1116] come to our wedding and that really broke my wife's heart um so it was just like because Mormonism represented everything that that was against um their community so you felt like you had to say something yeah i felt like by not saying anything yeah i was saying everything i felt like by not speaking up and being like hey dan reynolds is a Mormon singer here's this new band magic dragons and they're Mormons it was like okay well what do Mormons represent they represent prop eight what is Prop 8 represent bigotry towards the LGBT community.

[1117] So what do I do?

[1118] Okay, I can speak in every interview and be like, well, that's not me. I don't believe that too.

[1119] Or I could just be more active about it.

[1120] And especially when it was affecting my family and friends throughout my entire life, it was like, all right, this seems like a path that you need to go down.

[1121] So long story short, it was a path that just presented itself through things in my life.

[1122] So just on that topic, religion and God give a lot of meaning to a lot of people.

[1123] It gives a tradition that brings people together across the generations, but it also can hurt people.

[1124] What do you make about that tension?

[1125] A source of meaning, but also a source of pain for people.

[1126] The reality is, at least to me, again, this is just my reality.

[1127] I feel like I'm doing my dad's thing every time I'm talking to.

[1128] I'm like, I don't really know.

[1129] here's my two cents you have become your father yeah um the reality and it's my reality and it is the reality for sure is um there's i think that religion has brought a lot of hurt and pain to a lot of people absolutely it has that i don't think anybody can dispute that on it on either side um whether it's war you know whether it's slaughtering of entire peoples like it's there's been a lot of pain and suffering that has come from religion um so my little thing that has been hard for me is a faith crisis right i had religion and then i i lost it and then i had nothing so that's for me i was like well religion did that to me right like but then at one point it's kind of like how much of my life am i just going to complain about like being raised Mormon or being depressed like you know as I get older I'm like okay so what like okay it's really hurt me but were there any good things that came out of Mormonism well yeah there's a lot of good things that have come to my family through Mormonism closeness were really really close Mormon culture is that you live together forever right the teaching is that you're in your families are forever we die and then we go to heaven together and we're together forever my family really believes that principle all of them do and that instills a certain way of living that's kind of beautiful even if it's naivety there's something kind of beautiful about believing that we're forming these bonds together as a family and that like we're going to be together forever it brings a lot of comfort to a kid too when I was little I was like wow it's going to be okay if I die because I get to see my mom again you know what I mean I like I really believe that is the right answer that you tell that kid, actually when you die, you're not going to see your mom again.

[1130] Maybe it might be.

[1131] I don't know.

[1132] And everybody's going to, anybody who has a kid is going to face that moment.

[1133] I've already faced it where you sit down and my kid was like, hey, dad, when you die, am I going to see you again?

[1134] That was actually a really hard moment for me because I was suddenly faced with, okay, do I give the answer that I thought was bullshit?

[1135] Or do I give the answer of what I think it is?

[1136] Or do I give the real answer, which is I don't know and that's what I chose which is a father that's not always the easiest answer because your kid it's a wonderful thing that you feel like you can give your kid the comfort of like hey your parents are going to take care of everything we know everything we've been around my kids always like are you the strongest I'm like yeah I am the strong stronger than everybody yeah yeah so when you're face at that moment it's like it kind of sucks to tell your kid like you know what I don't know if you're going to see me after I die.

[1137] But I hope.

[1138] That's why I said.

[1139] I was like, I don't know, but I hope, I really hope, because that would be awesome if we can hang out forever.

[1140] And if there's any way for it to happen, I'll make it happen.

[1141] You know what I mean?

[1142] That's kind of what my answer was.

[1143] So long story short, sorry, I know that I'm being lengthy on this.

[1144] Is there like, what is my thought on religion?

[1145] It just is.

[1146] It's going to, it's been here forever.

[1147] It's coping.

[1148] It maybe it's, I can't say whether it's true or false, how the hell am I supposed to know?

[1149] I mean, like, I've lived 34 years on this planet.

[1150] A lot of people have been around a lot longer than me, and they really believe very deeply, and a lot of them are smarter than me. You know what I mean?

[1151] Like, I look at my older brothers, for instance, who are very practicing Mormons.

[1152] These guys are hyper -intelligent.

[1153] My younger sister, hyper -intelligent.

[1154] All of them start smarter than me. They all believe it still.

[1155] So what am I supposed to say well you're all stupid you know what i mean like you're all wrong i don't know maybe like maybe it's the south park episode where everybody dies and then they're like well the right answer was mormonism and everyone like mormons love that moment in south park they're like hey that day may come that day may come yes so maybe maybe i don't know is the honest answer for everybody around the table.

[1156] But the biggest question for which I didn't know is the right answer is, what's the meaning of this whole thing?

[1157] What's the meaning of life?

[1158] Now, you're not allowed to say, I don't know.

[1159] You can be just like your dad and say, let me just give my two cents.

[1160] Take it for you.

[1161] Whatever it's worth.

[1162] Take it or leave it.

[1163] It's probably worth nothing's pitil on the ground.

[1164] I mean what why are we here is it just busily creating all these kinds of things worrying about things having kids my purpose at least right now is to wake up and try to bring light love to the world light love to myself and have integrity.

[1165] That's my purpose.

[1166] The ultimate purpose of life, I guess that's my ultimate purpose of life.

[1167] I don't know what happens when I die.

[1168] Ayahuasca gave me some sense that there's more to be known.

[1169] I'm sure there are other things in life that would give me that and I'm looking for it.

[1170] I'm a seeker.

[1171] Like I'm always looking for the next something to give me hope in something more.

[1172] even if so I could just not bullshit my kids when they asked me that question and be like, you know what?

[1173] I really don't know.

[1174] I want to not know more, if that makes sense.

[1175] I don't want to, like, I want to see things that make me confused, that make me question what I already knew.

[1176] Like I am, like, when I meet an atheist who comes up to me and they're like, atheism, atheism, atheism, atheism.

[1177] it's just as laughable to me as when I meet the Mormon who comes up and they're like Mormonism Mormonism Mormonism I'm like how do you how do anyone how do you guys know they'd like like and uh you know so you feel like you're doing some through all your travels through all the people you meet you feel like you're still keeping your eyes open and your heart open to sort of discover discover something new like the ayahuasca experience that there might be there might be deeper truths out there yeah and i want to find him and i want to surround myself with people who are just looking for it i'm not i'm not interested in people who are just looking to point fingers at each like life is so short i'm looking for it's one of the reasons that i want to meet with you is i was like wow lex really seems like he's on a journey to find truth and that humility for me it's same thing with rick it drew me to rick it was like i really i i see that and i identify with it and that's what i'm there's the final song on our record our new record that's coming out the chorus goes um and this is like this is my best answer to what to what you're asking um the chorus goes take it easy on me i need some lullaby they tell me heaven's just a lie well i'm not surprised tell me that you know no you don't yeah you're just like me can't we just all hope for the best take it easy so that's it for me it's like i'm in a place where i'm like i don't know tell me you know i don't i'm not going to believe you maybe you do i'm not going to believe it but like let's just be easier on each other and like try to find truth wherever it may lie but above all know that we don't know jack shit i think that's a mic drop moment dan thank you so much.

[1178] You're an incredible human.

[1179] I love that you share with the world the darkness of your mind, of your life experience, and the beautiful light that you've shown to the world.

[1180] So it's a huge honor, and thank you for spending your valuable time.

[1181] Good luck on the tour.

[1182] Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Dan Reynolds.

[1183] To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

[1184] And now, let me leave you with some words from Aldous Huxley.

[1185] After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.

[1186] Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.