127 - Our Beautiful Rat King

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hey, this is exciting.

[2] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[3] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[4] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[5] Who killed Saz?

[6] And were they really after Charles?

[7] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[8] This season, murder hits close to home.

[9] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[10] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[11] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[12] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[13] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[14] Only Murders in the Building premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[15] Goodbye.

[16] Hello.

[17] Hi, friends.

[18] Hey, welcome to my favorite murder.

[19] This is a podcast that asks and answers the questions.

[20] There's like four questions.

[21] You don't need to know what they are right now.

[22] Just know that within this next, what will probably be a one hour and a three minutes.

[23] Oh, I was going to say 32 minutes.

[24] No, it's going to be four and a half hours.

[25] And each hour will answer one question.

[26] One question.

[27] It's going to be a lot like the Sphinx's Riddle.

[28] Uh -huh.

[29] What walks on four legs in the morning, bleedoo blue.

[30] Whatever, but more interesting than that, less ancient.

[31] Ancient shit's a fucking snooze vest.

[32] It is so dull.

[33] There's no video games back then.

[34] There's no gossip.

[35] Everyone just built pyramids.

[36] Boring.

[37] Pyramines, boring.

[38] Until we find out there are spaceships that are going to take us off this hell planet.

[39] Or brought us here because we all did something bad on a different planet and now we're really.

[40] This is a jail planet?

[41] Fuck, are you kidding me?

[42] This fucking burning trash heap of a fucking, what did I call it on Instagram earlier?

[43] Trash fire atop of Rat King.

[44] Oh, that would smell so bad.

[45] You know what a Rat King is.

[46] Hey, everyone, if you don't know what a Rat King is.

[47] Google that shit.

[48] Go Google and look at a photo.

[49] Google Image that shit.

[50] Yeah.

[51] And don't try to be intellectual about it and read about Rat Kings.

[52] You just get that picture right in your head.

[53] And then use your imagination.

[54] Also, find out for us.

[55] If they're, go on to Snopes and find out if they're real or fake.

[56] It's real.

[57] Is it real?

[58] Those photos of it.

[59] But you know how these days we live in a time where every single thing has now been proven false by BuzzFeed in some way?

[60] Not our beautiful, beautiful Rat King.

[61] That's the only real thing left in this world.

[62] The truth, the Rat King will rise up and save us all.

[63] That's right.

[64] Hurry the fuck up, Rat King.

[65] Rat King, my God.

[66] Pick one direction to go, please.

[67] Everyone together.

[68] Together?

[69] They're facing the wrong direction.

[70] Get it together.

[71] Okay.

[72] So we have breaking news.

[73] We don't often have breaking news on the show.

[74] But this is about as breaking as the news can get for us.

[75] And it's the insane, incredible, actual survival story of a murdery now.

[76] That's right.

[77] And I mean, it blew me away.

[78] I started crying.

[79] Of course.

[80] So you guys, I'm sure you know at this point.

[81] And everybody knows.

[82] And it's, you can find it on Twitter.

[83] And if you go to Billy Johnson's Twitter or our Twitter, my favorite murder, my fave murder.

[84] the story is on there of this woman who fucking stayed sexy and she fucking in Cincinnati right in Cincinnati she was so aware of her surroundings it's 11 o 'clock in the morning it's not and she's walking her dog and she's nine months pregnant and she notices some fucking strangely acting dude and keeps a fucking eye on him and he fucking comes at her and she she fights him off and screams and she this to me the smartest thing she did was when she knew he was following her there was no mistake.

[85] She headed toward where there were people.

[86] Yeah.

[87] She headed toward a pool, a public pool.

[88] And that's when he started chasing her.

[89] What I love about it too is that she wasn't even sure he was following her yet.

[90] But she was like, I'm not going that way.

[91] I'm going towards where there's people.

[92] Because he wasn't even creeping her out yet.

[93] Yeah.

[94] It was just like head toward people.

[95] And when he started following her, like chasing her, she said, I don't know you, like stay away from us.

[96] She also started yelling at him before she was even aware that he was attacking her, which I think is and now that pepper spray first, apologize later.

[97] It's like, this person is making you uncomfortable when you're by yourself and you're a woman and you're not liking what's going on.

[98] You can start fucking screaming.

[99] It's okay.

[100] You get to say whatever you want to get that person away from you.

[101] And also that establishes, it's like that thing instead of saying help or whatever people when they say yell fire.

[102] Right.

[103] I think what she did was so brilliant of going, like, I don't know you get away from me so that the people that were nearby could hear that.

[104] this was not, oh, could it be boyfriend and girlfriend?

[105] Like, you know that thing that keeps people from taking action?

[106] Because they're like, I don't want to get involved.

[107] Who knows what those two are doing?

[108] It's like she declared what was going on.

[109] Totally.

[110] And then tried to fight him.

[111] He punched her.

[112] And then people were there to pull him off.

[113] And she took a fucking beating.

[114] Dude.

[115] And we've all seen the pictures.

[116] It's amazing.

[117] And she, and she...

[118] The baby's fine.

[119] She's fine.

[120] The dog ran home.

[121] I love that they let...

[122] And also the dog is fine.

[123] And it's like, you get bad boy!

[124] Don't go home.

[125] I mean, like, I get it.

[126] But we're so, she said in the, you know, she was interviewed by the news and she gave this podcast credit for what she had in her mind of fighting him off and whatever.

[127] I mean, it was a really lovely thing that she said that, you know, somehow this podcast has something to do with her survival, which even just the mere suggestion of that is a, amazing to us and it's so it's like no you're the reason and we're fucking like it is this this wild when I was reading it I was like this is surreal that this little podcast that we just started for fun has become you know and this happens on a fucking daily basis but being amazed at what it's become and how many people it's inspired to go back to therapy or to go back to school for forensics or to you know to connect with their sisters and stuff like it's just like and meet new friends and do these beautiful people in their community that's right and fight fucking assholes off and uh it's what it's what you guys are making it with yourselves yeah it's like fine to give us credit of course we love it and want it but need it really it's what you're bringing out of yourselves it's what you're seeing in yourself and then keeping in your own mind there are people who hear it and they don't you know what i mean it's it's what you're doing for yourselves and i think that's the coolest part of it is like like, you know, that it's bringing something out of you that is, that is about you.

[128] Right.

[129] We are so happy to be part of this community, but that's just all we are is part of it and to talk at you for two and a half hours a week.

[130] And so since this woman, she didn't want her name mentioned in this, the press release that we read.

[131] Yeah.

[132] And so let's please respect her privacy.

[133] But as many people know, and she has posted, she has an Etsy store called Spins and such, right?

[134] So cute.

[135] Spoons and such.

[136] And I was like, uh -oh.

[137] Spoons and such.

[138] But then I looked at it and it's like the most gorgeous homemade jewelry.

[139] Not homemade.

[140] That sounds like macaroni on a fucking string.

[141] It's not homemade in that way.

[142] It's like handcrafted.

[143] Yes.

[144] Gorgeous fucking pieces of jewelry.

[145] It's incredible.

[146] Friend of the show, Billy Jensen, the true crime reporter, he sent me the link because he wanted to make sure we knew it existed and then sent a picture of a bookmark that he, he bought that said, I fell asleep here.

[147] And it's a spoon that folds over the book page.

[148] It's so cool looking.

[149] It's so cool.

[150] Yeah.

[151] The jewelry is gorgeous.

[152] I'm going like, I don't buy myself nice things and I'm going to buy myself a nice thing.

[153] Um, and she actually made a note.

[154] You'll see the note on there, but on that Etsy shop.

[155] She was like, please give me a break because I make all this myself.

[156] She was like, thank you.

[157] But the, I love the idea that you could get some, do some early Christmas shopping and then support a fellow murderino and help her pay some of those medical bills.

[158] Right.

[159] Or you know what?

[160] If you want to go wider, go to rain and you can donate there or AINN and, you know, to survivors of domestic abuse and violence and kind of makes you feel great.

[161] Last week I donated money to the ACLU in my mom's name.

[162] Yes, money.

[163] Because she's Republican, did I tell you this?

[164] And I was in the worst because before that I was so depressed.

[165] Thank you.

[166] I was.

[167] so depressed.

[168] And I was like, this, I just feel hopeless and this is horrible.

[169] And then I just kept thinking about my mom and how angry I am at her.

[170] Yeah.

[171] You know, because it's a personal thing.

[172] Because everything's her fault.

[173] She voted and she's the one vote that made him win.

[174] Right.

[175] So I just donated money and put it like as a gift.

[176] Yes.

[177] And gave her email address.

[178] So she's definitely going to get an email.

[179] It says, thank you for this donation, Janet, to the ACLU.

[180] But she, I mean, the ACLU is, she must like that.

[181] They're, for good.

[182] They're the for the best, but people, but they don't understand.

[183] She doesn't understand.

[184] Yeah.

[185] You know what?

[186] Though good.

[187] It's not for us to make anybody understand.

[188] Let's protect ourselves.

[189] Let's make ourselves feel better.

[190] Let's take that's brilliant small step action.

[191] It felt like a really positive, vindictive thing that I could do.

[192] And I was really, it definitely made me feel better after.

[193] A hundred percent.

[194] Yeah.

[195] And just a little, with a tiny jab.

[196] Yeah.

[197] Why not jab, jab around if you feel like it?

[198] Instead of screaming in her face about why she, killing the world.

[199] Which people can't hear at this point.

[200] But that it really is a thing.

[201] If you are upset, if you're depressed, if you're freaking out, help someone out.

[202] If you're broke and you can't donate money.

[203] Phone calls.

[204] Letter writing.

[205] Just take action.

[206] Make a little list.

[207] Do three things.

[208] Make sure they're for other people and do them anonymously.

[209] And you can build a good feeling back.

[210] Yeah.

[211] And then, you know, everyone loves to quote that Mr. Rogers, you know, look for the helpers quote be a helper take it a step further Karen I love that right because I think I think in this like social media Twitter world we live in we're like I'm the queen of retweet it now you go do it yeah that's how I mean I am um but I think it's even better it feels even better when you can be the person that's doing it and not just the person going oh good I'm comforted because there's a helper yeah like yeah taking action in even the smallest way makes a huge difference I love that.

[212] And stay fucking sane.

[213] Stay sane.

[214] Keep your feet on the ground.

[215] Don't burn out energy with rage or any of those things.

[216] Just focus.

[217] You know, protect yourself.

[218] Yeah.

[219] Mental health.

[220] We're going to need our mental health because it's going to be a long fucking fight, guys.

[221] That's right.

[222] Speaking of justice, did we speak of justice?

[223] We did.

[224] We shall speak of justice.

[225] So all these fucking cold cases now, after a fucking golden state killer, now all these genealogy websites.

[226] There's three in the news recently in like the past month that have been fucking solved because of ancestral DNA.

[227] Yes.

[228] So it's fucking incredible.

[229] Christy Mirac, who was a teacher who got murdered in 1992, the 1986 rape and murder in Tacoma of Michelle Welch, who was 12 years old.

[230] and then in British Columbia Jay Cook and Tanya Van Cullenberg in 1987 were murdered and those have all been solved by fucking familial DNA so everyone we all need to go to the site which is GED match that's the site where all of these have been sent to because it's public oh yeah so you can't do it at 23 and me yeah right so now I'm like let's all if everyone listening right now sends their fucking DNA to GED match like how maybe this some second or third cousin you'll never even know about it they're not going to call you you've never even met that third cousin they're probably an asshole maybe he's a murderer and you fucking helped just by putting your DNA in there and you'll never even know yeah couldn't be amazing it the company is called Parabon Nanolabs which is the company that's been taking that DNA and testing it and like handing it over to the police to do the invest it's like it's how much money did they give you to say that 100 nothings no that's amazing it really does feel like the the wall is crumbling it's It has that early 2000s, you know, DNA like ding, ding, ding, ding, feeling births.

[231] How exciting?

[232] I mean, not exciting.

[233] How terrified are a bunch of murderers right now?

[234] Yeah.

[235] Well, it's like, yeah, the net is finally closing in on some people.

[236] I can't wait until some guy just goes to and is like, I did this thing.

[237] You're going to find out because I'm freaking out about this DNA.

[238] Like, I just did it.

[239] That'd be amazing.

[240] I'm just really excited.

[241] And that guy is the Zodiac killer.

[242] Ladies and gentlemen.

[243] Oh, my God.

[244] He's only 97 years old.

[245] well there's this other fucking case the doodler no oh yeah that's right the dudeler they're close on that one the last i read okay well no this is the fucking dude this is the fucking this is the fucking dude this is the guy the old older man killed himself they had no clue who he was when they ran his name through it was like 2002 when they ran his name through the database to find out who he was because they couldn't get any prints or anything it came up his name Joseph Newton Chandler the 3rd came up as a boy who had died in 1945 at eight years old.

[246] Yes.

[247] So he stole this fucking guy's identity and they're trying to figure out why and who he was and why he was on the lamb.

[248] And everyone, of course, is like he's the zodiac because he was in fucking Napa at the time.

[249] Right, right?

[250] Yeah, he was in the Bay Area.

[251] But we don't know yet.

[252] I love that.

[253] That's also the fun part that it's going backwards like that, where it's like, we got the guy.

[254] Now we have to figure out where it like match everything up.

[255] totally it's fascinating no it's it's such an exciting time not only because of that and all those things um but also because somebody uh tweeted a picture picture oh no what on twitter oh god what is it um it is okay i'm just say the people it's a it's a podcast called boundary issues okay never heard of them sorry guys um it doesn't really sure shoot it doesn't describe...

[256] Did you just accent and say shart?

[257] I did say shart, but that's not what I was trying to say.

[258] They're out of Boston.

[259] The description on their Twitter handle is, like brunch with your gal pals mixed with the worst anime you've ever loved.

[260] So whatever that means...

[261] Sounds fun.

[262] Boundary cast.

[263] Okay.

[264] They were apparently looking for visual representation of my voice, and so they were looking on Google Images, and they found a stock photo of me. What?

[265] And this is from...

[266] You a stock photo model?

[267] No. For some reason, this is a stock photo.

[268] Maybe somebody at this company was like, yeah, we got to get on this.

[269] We're going to make a million dollars off this picture.

[270] This is from when I was 25 and I did the Bob Hope Young Comedian Special.

[271] It was one of my first TV sets ever.

[272] Oh, my God.

[273] She's handing it to me. Wow, you are everything I've ever hoped you would be.

[274] Okay, look at those speed eyebrows.

[275] Those eyebrows?

[276] Yeah, those are, I've been sitting in front of the mere.

[277] plucking for fucking days.

[278] Those are, they're straight up Merniloi style.

[279] I have OCD and I can't handle myself.

[280] The hair is Midwestern soccer mom.

[281] Well, but, you're, you're a goth mid, mid, let's, I'm gonna stop you there.

[282] Okay.

[283] It was 1995.

[284] Okay.

[285] So the hair rules.

[286] I know.

[287] I had this hair.

[288] I had the time.

[289] I had the hair.

[290] And then you put it up in little clips and you twist them and shit.

[291] If I can put a headband in short hair, it didn't make sense.

[292] People were like, Who is she?

[293] Pomade.

[294] Why are you using pomade?

[295] But here's what I love the most about this.

[296] A stock photo.

[297] Thank you.

[298] Here's, it's the key to my beauty is in that picture.

[299] I have, my lip liner is so far outside my natural lip line.

[300] I'm going close up right now.

[301] Because I have a cold store that I'm trying to cover.

[302] I see it.

[303] Can you see it?

[304] So all of the, my lips, I have like implant lips in a way that I've never had before or since.

[305] Well, now we know.

[306] Oh, yeah, you don't.

[307] Well, now we know you need a fucking filler.

[308] You know, guess what, though?

[309] It's too late.

[310] No, dude, we can make you look like this again.

[311] But everyone's like, but wait, I don't get it.

[312] It's like a weird this.

[313] Yeah, because isn't that weird how different that makes my face look?

[314] You look like such a little baby.

[315] I was a real baby on drugs.

[316] So cute.

[317] Can I tell you something else that people found?

[318] Uh -oh.

[319] Is it bad?

[320] No. Well, I don't know.

[321] You tell me. Oh.

[322] Someone in the Facebook group, which I totally secretly stock, uh, found a clip of you on.

[323] like Jenny, what was her name?

[324] Jenny McCarthy?

[325] Show.

[326] Her sitcom.

[327] And a tattoo parlor.

[328] That's right.

[329] That's probably, oh no, I'd say that's like two years after this stock photo.

[330] Yeah, you got your hair all twisted up and shit.

[331] Yeah.

[332] And you're screwing the piercer.

[333] Yeah.

[334] You say, and I watched it and I didn't tell you.

[335] I was like, yeah, there's a handful.

[336] Because I already found the wings clip.

[337] Right.

[338] They'd always do something with my hair.

[339] The hair people would get their hands in my hair and be like, I can actually do something with this hair.

[340] So the wings clip, I have really big country Western hair.

[341] And everyone's like, look at this wig.

[342] And I'm like, that's my hair.

[343] It's just hair spray in my hair.

[344] You can do anything.

[345] I love it.

[346] But the Jenny McCarthy one, I, they, it's like, it's kind of the Bjork 90s look where it's just not naughty knots all over my head.

[347] That's right.

[348] And if you're.

[349] That doesn't look good on anyone but Bjork.

[350] No. Because then you just have a bald head.

[351] Yes.

[352] You're bald and I think they did it because it looked funny because I really, you know.

[353] It looked punky, you know.

[354] punk but also I'd like when you have a round face it's like clearly she shouldn't have she shouldn't have um whatever I mean that's this is one of the many reasons why I hate television yeah this is our new sitcom I mean our new podcast our new podcast our new podcast let's talk about my hair in the 90s and the drugs that I was on there's something about that picture though the idea that someone dug that up there's something so delightfully terrible it's like somebody getting your old yearbook but like why is it a stock photo now why are they using it for stock I know that I that I cannot explain to you it's good it's pretty amazing um what else do we have any other business i don't uh we have a fan cult oh are we posting this week on it finally on the fan cult i don't mean finally as in you i meet stephen i mean finally as in us we're getting our shit together so we're posting the p -lbox unboxing a video on the fan cult and a live episode which one is it Milwaukee?

[355] Night one.

[356] Oh, shit.

[357] Remember?

[358] Remember?

[359] Or if you don't, go to my favorite murder .com, join the fancult.

[360] You get a t -shirt and an enamel pin and you can join all the forums and you get a bunch of stuff like that.

[361] You get to join another little club.

[362] It's the club inside the club.

[363] And as soon as I figure out how to join it, I'm going to start posting on the forum.

[364] But my dad is doing it in the meantime for me. Marty is standing in for you.

[365] We'll try to get all the families involved.

[366] That's right.

[367] My sister would probably lurk, for sure, but she wouldn't want anyone to know she was there.

[368] And, yeah, those live shows, I think, are people are going to be excited because we've been been asked for a long time.

[369] So we're going to start putting those up, you know, on the reg.

[370] And then, of course, all kinds of wonderful content for you, recipes and videos.

[371] Videos.

[372] Songs.

[373] Philems.

[374] Steven's going to write a poem every week.

[375] Oh, we haven't actually.

[376] You know, it needs to go up ASAP, Stephen, a picture of your new haircut.

[377] Stephen has a summer look that actually is not that different than me and the stock photo in 1995.

[378] And it is a look as in, like, L -E -W -K.

[379] Like, it's got, it's got fucking attitude.

[380] Talk to us about the haircut, Stephen.

[381] You know, I mean, it was.

[382] I feel like he's going to.

[383] No, I was a very self -conscious thing where I think I've seen a lot of photographs of myself with a huge beard and the, You were getting in the long hair.

[384] And I was like, you know what?

[385] It's time to, it's time to freshen up.

[386] So, yes.

[387] Just back to the mustache.

[388] And, yeah, just a nice little, it's getting hot in L .A., so.

[389] You deserve it.

[390] You deserve a nice, you know, take care of yourself.

[391] It looks for you good.

[392] It looks really good with the headphones on.

[393] Yes.

[394] We're going to get the same haircut.

[395] It's podcasting here.

[396] Mustache too.

[397] Mustache.

[398] I'll just stop shaving.

[399] Yeah.

[400] I can do mustache.

[401] I'd say in four days.

[402] Well, you look great.

[403] Yeah, we support you We support your look But also you need to start putting some content On the fucking fan called Stephen Now that we got the compliments out of the way What the fuck?

[404] Get your shit together Come on.

[405] Put your personal shit on there Same!

[406] Are you right?

[407] Yeah, you're raising your hand.

[408] Ms. Hartzart?

[409] Yes, Karen?

[410] Just Miss Kilgareth?

[411] Just this one thing And this is local news.

[412] This is the local news segment of the show.

[413] Los Angeles.

[414] Lasin and this.

[415] Hold on.

[416] the are we going to talk about the very first episode we ever did it's called episode number one oh yeah we talk about like the first we talk about is a fucking dude who gets in a car accident on a freeway right near us and it severs half of his body and lands on a fucking what's it called uh bill what do they call the freeway sign and exit sign yeah so that's like it's like a kind of a theme and now episode 100 and what is this 20 27 we're getting back to that same thing that we started in episode one.

[417] Because, um, the 110 freeway in Los Angeles.

[418] During rush hour.

[419] Okay.

[420] Asshole.

[421] This is like closing down the sidewalk in New York City.

[422] Like, I can't even explain how much this is not okay.

[423] It's like shutting down an entire airport.

[424] Yeah.

[425] Because this city sucks and this city is sucks.

[426] It's planned terribly.

[427] There's never not traffic.

[428] It's crazy.

[429] And the 110 is basically how everybody gets downtown.

[430] Everybody.

[431] So, and to get to work if you're on the west side, if you're on the east side, if you work down, who nobody cares.

[432] It's a main artery.

[433] Yeah.

[434] This guy this morning during drive time gets up onto one of those freeway signs.

[435] Now, I like what he, and a couple people wrote this too.

[436] He was, he's basically saying pollution is killing.

[437] Let's stop killing each other and get rid of pollution.

[438] Definitely.

[439] Great message.

[440] 100%.

[441] And he was at least entertaining and funny.

[442] Yeah, he was doing funny stuff.

[443] He was shirtless with some jean shorts.

[444] of course all the cops and firemen had to go up there and be like dude you have to get down he's a protester he's not doing it they put those big crazy stunt man air pillow things underneath the sign so that when he gets off he has to just jump off and or like if he just jump yeah then he can't hurt himself yeah like if he's crazy and he's going to uh it's going to be a bad suicide situation but instead what he does is he kind of scuttles away from the cops that have climbed up onto this fucking sign.

[445] Which also, like, A, they're fucking risking their own lives.

[446] Yeah.

[447] And they have so many other real emergencies to be tending to at that fucking moment.

[448] Yeah.

[449] So fuck this guy.

[450] Especially in downtown.

[451] Yeah.

[452] And it's 8 .30 in the fucking morning.

[453] All these poor people have to go to fucking work.

[454] Oh, I mean.

[455] And I love, I think pollution's a terrible thing, too.

[456] It's terrible.

[457] But you're not.

[458] It's the story's about you being a dick now, not about pollution.

[459] Well, because, yeah, it's a good attention getter, but it, the shockwaves.

[460] Also, if you do something like that and you shut down a freeway in L. I'm surprised people didn't try to kill him I mean that's the kind of shit where like road rage is a real thing here and people they were it wasn't just like oh some cars can go by on the side entirely shut down the one tent those poor people that live on those streets like near USA but here's what's genius he scuttles away from the cops when they're like you have to get down and then he goes over to the side and does a fucking backflip off of the street sign as if he's at the public pool and you know he's like Like, I'm going to prison for a while.

[461] Yeah.

[462] So I'm going to make this fun.

[463] I'm going to, and maybe I'm still on some mushrooms from my mushroom party last night, whatever.

[464] But then the very end, and someone wrote this, it made me laugh really hard.

[465] Yeah.

[466] She wrote, it's so funny at the end, because he kind of stays in the middle where he lands.

[467] And the cops are trying to grab him to get him off.

[468] And he has his hands in the air, but he's not getting off.

[469] So they can't, they're trying to get on to get him off.

[470] And it turns into a little bit of like, the physical comedy bit and it's like and the girl that wrote it goes those things are so fucking hard to get off of what an asshole it's so true I hate him the cops are all you can tell they're livid and they're fucking just trying to arrest him yeah and he's like bro don't tase me dude oh my god you know that's some fucking poor girl named Stacy's ex -boyfriend and she's like so embarrassed right now or has someone like I've gone on a tender date with that guy yeah you know he left his shirt in my car Yeah, it was so weird.

[471] Oh, the shirtless guy that brought me to the restaurant.

[472] He just hates shorts and pollution.

[473] I love it.

[474] Those are those two least favorite things.

[475] Okay.

[476] You can't wear a shirt.

[477] Hey, this is exciting.

[478] An all new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[479] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[480] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[481] Who killed Saz?

[482] And were they really after Charles?

[483] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[484] This season, murder hits close to home.

[485] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[486] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[487] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[488] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[489] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, Davey, Devine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[490] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[491] Goodbye.

[492] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[493] Absolutely.

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[511] Goodbye.

[512] Who goes first this week?

[513] That was breaking.

[514] Steve?

[515] New hair, Steve.

[516] What was last week?

[517] Oh, I think I went for...

[518] Did you?

[519] Wait.

[520] Consulting the notes.

[521] Who went first?

[522] Wait.

[523] Oh, you go first.

[524] I go first.

[525] I go first.

[526] Okay.

[527] This is Karen's first.

[528] Good night.

[529] I'm going to take a nap.

[530] this is um this is lip implant kilgara reporting you close your eyes put your feet up above your head like i do georgia just turned into uh the letter l um okay so with all the with the very bad feelings that are in a cloud around us like pollution like this terrible pollution i will say this coming home from petaluma having visited my family and then driving back down this city is it's disgusting.

[531] It's shockingly brown.

[532] It's so bright.

[533] I didn't, you don't even notice you think if this guy is blue and then you're like, well, that's actually not blue.

[534] And it's like driving down the five when you get behind Burbank, you know, and you're kind of like on that spot.

[535] So you get almost all the, you get the pollution that's kind of in general, but then you get it all the way downtown to it.

[536] It's, it's so, it's like the air is tan.

[537] Yeah.

[538] It's very disturbing.

[539] It is.

[540] So backflip you were right but why did I say that oh because so with all the bad things that are happening it's very good for us like I'm so happy I went and saw my family got to see Nora got to hang out with the fam got to have a nice drive home and listened to about 40 episodes of the legendary podcast criminal which we've all listened to yes so good so many amazing stories and of course my favorite thing is when people are telling their own story first hand.

[541] Yeah.

[542] In some way.

[543] And so this one I wanted to tell because I think we've all heard this story on Dateline and on all of all of the shows.

[544] But in this episode of Criminal, it's told firsthand from from this woman's point of view who is in it and involved in it.

[545] And the whole thing is kind of as awful as the story is, it's also feel good, which we fucking need right now.

[546] Well, we're not going to have that by the end of the episode because mine's not.

[547] No, and I don't think people are coming here for the direct feel good.

[548] But I just went, as I sat down, because I was going to do Georgia Lee Moses this week, because I was in Petaluma and she's the girl, the 12 -year -old girl who's still a cold case.

[549] She was murdered and left by the side of the road.

[550] At the same time, PolyClass was, but Polyclass got way more attention.

[551] Yeah, because Polyclass's family was there.

[552] There are people who, they didn't know Georgia Moses was gone for a couple days.

[553] Like, it's, the difference in everything in those two stories is so stark and awful.

[554] But Georgia Moses still has friends who knew her from junior high.

[555] They have a Facebook page.

[556] They still talk about it.

[557] And they moved.

[558] There was a memorial next to the 101 freeway, which was near where her body was dumped.

[559] And when they just did a ton of reconstruction on that part of the freeway, they had to move the memorial.

[560] And people were really, really upset.

[561] It's like, you can't just move this as is meaningful.

[562] They moved it in front of the Pagloma City Hall, which I think is so beautiful and important.

[563] And, like, just even doing that slight research made me happen.

[564] Yeah, well, maybe that can be one of those cases that are finally fucking solved by ancestral DNA.

[565] The thing is, it has, I think all in all these cases, or, you know, like a major part of it is that there's someone somewhere that's just fighting for it.

[566] Still waiting.

[567] And bugging people and saying, please test this, please test this.

[568] Which we all know, and every time we do, you do them way more than me of the cold cases.

[569] So anyway, that's what I was going to do.

[570] And then when I sat down after all the news this morning and everything that's tough, I was like, maybe something less tough.

[571] Yeah.

[572] So this was a cool story to hear on criminal.

[573] And also I got, there's a really good article in the Dallas News that was reprinted from August 3rd, 2012.

[574] So this starts October 12th, 1984.

[575] And we're in Dallas, Texas.

[576] It's a woman named Angie Samota is, she's a student at Southern Methodist University, which is right there in Dallas.

[577] And she is, you know, she's described by her friend and in every article or whatever.

[578] And this is a thing that we come up against a lot because, of course, the majority of stories that we hear are about blonde, beautiful women.

[579] That's like, that's the, that's a news get.

[580] If a blonde beautiful mother is killed, you know, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a. story that they all everybody sinks their teeth into right um and so this is another one of those stories um she was a in a sorority she was a sorority girl she was really fun and vivacious and lovely and beautiful but she also was super smart she was a double major in um can in computer science and electrical engineering holy shit so she clearly wanted to be like a computer person or knew that that was going to be the future.

[581] Totally.

[582] And so she, you know, that's why her friends called her a triple threat.

[583] And so basically the majority of this episode of Criminal, they're interviewing a woman named Sheila Gibbons, Wysaki.

[584] And she, Sheila was Angela's roommate freshman year at Southern SMU, we'll call it.

[585] Okay.

[586] I feel so uncomfortable using shortened terms for colleges as if I fucking went there or anywhere.

[587] But SMU.

[588] You know, good old SMU.

[589] And then, like, go sea snakes.

[590] Herky.

[591] That was herky sneaks.

[592] Sea snakes.

[593] You can call them a sea space.

[594] Is that what they?

[595] Maybe that's what they are.

[596] That is what they are.

[597] The Seasnakes.

[598] The Southern Method is sea snakes.

[599] All that, like, alliteration, it really trips people up, and then they lose the game.

[600] Mm -hmm.

[601] And then they have to.

[602] Seas snakes.

[603] Sea snakes.

[604] Okay, so, Sheila and Angela, our pair.

[605] their roommates freshman year of college.

[606] And as, you know, vivacious and an outgoing as Angela is, Sheila, she's a psych major, she's a little bit more introverted, a little more cautious, really not the same type.

[607] She doesn't drink.

[608] And when they first lived together, Angela had a boyfriend that she hated, that Sheila hated.

[609] And was like, so, but then Angela broke up with that guy, and then the two of them started hanging out all the time.

[610] And so she, Sheila tells a lovely story of how they used to go drive down a place called Forest Lane where basically you just drive around.

[611] That's how you met guys in, like, in that area, which is so cute and so country.

[612] Yeah.

[613] It reminded me of in the 80s in high school, there was cruising.

[614] You just drove up and down the boulevard.

[615] Let's like, let's see who's out right now.

[616] Yeah, and like yell into other people's cars and then just drive away.

[617] That's how I always did it.

[618] You'll think of me later.

[619] Bye.

[620] So, so anyway, that's what they did.

[621] And that, you know, Sheila has all these fond memories of how fun they were.

[622] And that when they would, like when their groups of friends would party, she was just the designated driver.

[623] So she still hung out and had fun, but just was kind of more on the more conservative side.

[624] Yeah.

[625] Then when it's, when the next year, Angie decides she wants to be in a sorority, she doesn't want to live in a sorority house because she started dating a new guy.

[626] His name's Ben.

[627] He's older.

[628] She wants to be able to, like, kind of live a more independent life.

[629] So she moves into a condo off campus.

[630] Okay.

[631] But she and Sheila still stay in touch and are still friends.

[632] So in the weekend of October 12th, 1984, it's the big game between, again, even say their full name.

[633] The sea snakes versus the.

[634] It's the seat, no, this is now, well, you know the mascot for the University of Texas, of course, the famous cowboy boot.

[635] The fighting cowboy boot Going up against the University of Oklahoma And they're fighting tumbleweed The cowboy boot just kicking the tumbleweed's ass The tumbleweed coming in and putting little spikes down the boot Yeah or just like making everyone kind of depressed Just by blowing by and be like oh fuck that kind of sucks Just quitting the football game because they're bummed out keeps going Good job tumbleweed Did you see really quickly there's like this town that got overran by tumblewee Was it like Vegas or Nevada somewhere?

[636] Yes, it was somewhere like down.

[637] Somewhere that has tumbleweeds, okay, everyone.

[638] It's like the creepiest fucking thing.

[639] Look it up.

[640] There's video.

[641] And it's like two -story houses and the tumbleweeds reach the second fucking story.

[642] And it kind of just makes you think of like, it looks like spiders.

[643] It's crazy.

[644] Anyways.

[645] It's such a good video.

[646] It's just like someone driving in a car and then these humongous, not like one tumbleweed that crosses the road in a, in a western.

[647] Huge.

[648] huge tumbleweeds that are just piling up that they're like, since someone come and get these out of our yard.

[649] It's so, it's good stuff.

[650] So, of course, the boots are kicking the tumbleweeds asses.

[651] No, I don't know.

[652] This was like a famous game.

[653] It was called the Red River Showdown.

[654] And it was also the same weekend as the, it was the opening weekend of the Texas State Fair.

[655] Okay.

[656] So there's a shit ton of people out and about.

[657] And so Angie wants to go out and she gets her friend, Anita Kodala.

[658] and she goes bar hopping and they call a guy that Angie had met previously also at a bar and his name is Russell Buchanan.

[659] Now Russell Buchanan's older than them, their sophomores.

[660] He's graduated.

[661] He's 23.

[662] He's getting ready to go to graduate school.

[663] He's an architect.

[664] He's gotten his degree in architecture and that's what he's going to become.

[665] So he's not, I think she, I mean, the frat boy kind of.

[666] No, exactly.

[667] He's kind of like a cool older guy that they met.

[668] And it's like, come drink with us.

[669] Yeah.

[670] And then Angie's boyfriend, Ben, he didn't go out that night because he had to get up.

[671] He was a construction company manager.

[672] So he had to get up really early in the morning.

[673] So he's like, no, you go have your fun.

[674] So they went bar hopping that night.

[675] And everywhere they went, people said she knows everybody everywhere.

[676] She is this, she became the social chair of the sorority she joined.

[677] So she was just kind of.

[678] of like one of those people.

[679] And so around 1 a .m., they go home.

[680] So Angie drops off, first she drops off Russell at his house, which is a five -minute walk from her apartment.

[681] Then she drops off her friend Anita.

[682] Then she drives over to her boyfriend Ben's house that's about a half an hour away just to say good night.

[683] And basically it sounded like she said, like, you're a nerd for not coming out with us, whatever.

[684] You know, cute, cuteness.

[685] then she drives home.

[686] Okay.

[687] At about 1 .45 in the morning, Ben gets a call, and Angie is saying, talk to me. I'm freaked out right now.

[688] There's a guy in my house.

[689] And he's just waking up.

[690] He doesn't get what's going on.

[691] And she's trying to talk to him in code at first.

[692] And he doesn't understand what she's saying.

[693] And then finally she says, I'm freaking out because there's a stranger in my house.

[694] And she basically says, some guy knocked on the door and asked if he could use the bathroom and use the phone.

[695] And so I'm really scared right now.

[696] And she let him in and she's like, let's just pretend we're on the phone while he's here until he leaves, stay on the phone with me. Exactly.

[697] Oh, no. Yeah, exactly.

[698] So as he's starting to catch on and going, wait, what, right as he's asking her like, how did you meet this guy or whatever, the phone goes dead.

[699] So he calls her back.

[700] There's no answer.

[701] He starts freaking out, drives over to the apartment.

[702] And because of his job, even though it's 1980 fucking four, and this is pre -9 -1 -1, pre -DNA, pre -cell phones.

[703] He has got a cell phone in his truck because he's this construction site manager.

[704] So in the episode of Criminal, they say the cell phone took up like the almost the entire like front dash of this truck.

[705] But he did have a phone in his car.

[706] So he just kept on calling her on his drive over and of course no one answered.

[707] So he gets there.

[708] The door's locked.

[709] No one's opening the door.

[710] He's knocking.

[711] No one's responding.

[712] so he goes back, calls the police.

[713] He has to call information to call the police.

[714] And the police show up.

[715] And there's a, in the Dallas News article I read, there's a police officer who says she was on the case and she was 20 years old.

[716] She was like a rookie herself.

[717] And they had had this crazy weekend because there's so many more people in town that normally are.

[718] And then they get this call and she says the second they pulled into the apartment complex, she had a bad feeling and it just kept getting worse and she was like it was the worst feeling um so they open they get the manager's key they open angela's apartment door and her partner as she's walking around the front she's seeing angela's shoes in the kitchen and looking around there and she hears her her partner in the back bedroom saying she's back here and angela's murdered body is laying nude on her bed she's been stabbed 18 times oh my god this is really graphic she was stopped so violently that her heart was outside of her chest.

[719] Oh, my God.

[720] Just horrible.

[721] And that woman who is the officer says, yeah, she says she's never forgotten.

[722] No. No. And you wouldn't.

[723] And yeah, it's just worst case scenario.

[724] So the police collect the blood and semen samples from this crime crime scene.

[725] They scrape her fingernails and they keep all that evidence.

[726] but it's again 1984 right and immediately of course there are three three very obvious suspects that the police identify Ben McCall Angie's current boyfriend Russell Buchanan the guy that was out with them at the bar that night and then an ex that ex -boyfriend of Angie that Sheila did not like who actually threatened Angie with a knife when they broke up so you know Sheila's instincts were right but they find that the blood on the scene was was um the blood type of non -secreter right was which was the way they typed it back then and angie's boyfriend ben and the bad x were both immediately cleared because they were uh secretors but russell buchanan is a non -secreter so the cops are immediately like this is our guy a secretor is defined as a person who secretes their blood type antigens into body fluids and secretions like the saliva in your mouth and mucous in your digestive track and respiratory cavities.

[727] Basically what this means is that a secretor puts their blood type into these body fluids.

[728] Okay.

[729] So a non -secretor is someone who doesn't have their blood type in their body fluid.

[730] So you can't type it through fluid.

[731] Right.

[732] They couldn't at the time.

[733] Yeah.

[734] I think that they still can't because they don't secrete it.

[735] We haven't evolved?

[736] All right.

[737] Okay.

[738] So it's all about rest of it.

[739] Buchanan now and his story is a little weird okay because when the cops show up at his apartment Monday morning to say that Angela Samata is dead and has been murdered Russell Buchanan acts like he has no idea and doesn't and the cops are like so you haven't watched the news and you haven't read the newspaper and he's like no actually the morning after I got dropped off I woke up really early I went to my friend's wedding I left from my friend's wedding for a trip to visit my family and Houston that I've had planned for a while and I just got back when I got back Sunday night I immediately started working because I had a bunch of work to do and yeah I have I haven't I don't know anything that doesn't seem that weird right I mean well yeah for from his point of view but the cops see it as you got dropped off and then you left town oh that's all they are seeing and so they're like and you're a non -secreter right so they bring him in and they give him a lie detector test and he passes it and that of course they're like what happened how did this happen this is the guy clearly and so they put him under surveillance and they're watching him and in the over the next six months they bring him in repeatedly to question him and to test his story and to talk about that trip to visit his family and over and over and as that happens and he doesn't call a lawyer because he's trying to be he's trying to work with the police and he's trying to help the case um but finally his family says you have to call they're just going to pin this on you so you you have to get a lawyer yeah he does finally decides to do that when the when the police say actually we don't think your lie your lie detector test we don't think you passed it we looked at it again and it's inconclusive and that's when he knew like this is going to get bad for me so he lawyers up and the lawyer basically calls lead detective and says release my client or charge him and so they have to release him.

[740] Then the cops find out that Russell's about to leave the country because he's going to get his, he's going to graduate school for architecture in London.

[741] So now they're like, we've got to get this guy.

[742] What the fuck?

[743] So they start talking to Angela's friends and they meet Sheila.

[744] And Sheila tells them, Sheila knows all about Angie's other friends and about her life.

[745] And they start talking to Sheila more and more and finally can.

[746] convince her to go out to dinner with Russell and ask him about all the details of that to see if his story is the same.

[747] She wears a wire.

[748] Sting operations.

[749] That sounds fucking awesome.

[750] They put a wire on her and she, in the criminal episode, goes, the one thing I did wrong was that I rode in his car to the restaurant where I was like, holy shit.

[751] So she, and she goes, I realized as I was doing that, that that was a bad idea.

[752] But she basically had dinner with the person she thought murdered.

[753] She thought he did it.

[754] Yes, she did.

[755] And she was basically asking all the questions.

[756] They told her to ask.

[757] And his story was consistent.

[758] It was the same thing.

[759] I don't think it's him.

[760] He said all the same stuff.

[761] And so they basically, when it came time for him to go to London, to go to graduate school, he left.

[762] Okay.

[763] And the case goes cold.

[764] Okay.

[765] I really don't.

[766] I'm like, keep waiting to remember this story, and I don't know it.

[767] and I don't, and I'm excited, and I also don't think he did it.

[768] Okay.

[769] But that's my guess right now.

[770] Okay.

[771] I like, I like a mid -story guess.

[772] Okay.

[773] Just to be like, because, you know, in these things, anything can happen.

[774] That's right.

[775] So, sorry, you have to catch up to myself?

[776] The fuck does that say?

[777] Anything can happen.

[778] There's a moth flying around, I apologize.

[779] Oh, that's right.

[780] Oh, also, I forgot to mention, the police told Sheila before she wore the wire and had dinner with Russell that he had failed his life detector test and that he had fled the city after the murder.

[781] They basically told her the story and really hit the narrative of like, this guy's, this is our guy.

[782] And we need to get this guy before he leaves for London.

[783] So when they can't get any evidence and there's nothing to prove and he is able to leave for London and go to graduate school, you know, they all kind of just go, that was the guy.

[784] And nothing else is ever investigated.

[785] and Sheila doesn't Sheila can't go back to college She like can't deal with it And she she drops out of college Two years later she meets the man Who will be her future husband And they end up Moving to Tennessee together To Nashville I believe Or Tennessee I should say How would I fucking know where they moved?

[786] They moved to Tennessee And they have two sons Okay I think her new husband did it What about the sons?

[787] um so she's living there and she's she's got she's you know got her life there but it's always bothered her that a her friend's never gotten justice she's someone who solves it i know this i don't know what happens i just remember reading about her but i don't know what happened this is the feel good i love her okay so um it really bothers her that russell be canaan is in london now he's I think at some point he comes back.

[788] He becomes a very successful architect.

[789] And she's really pissed about it.

[790] And she's like, my friend who could have been a genius computer, whatever she wanted, is dead.

[791] No one's paying for it.

[792] And this guy's living his life.

[793] And he's the guy.

[794] So she then at one point, she joins a Bible study group.

[795] And the way she tells the story is that one night in bed she was trying to get her reading done for this group.

[796] And out of the corner of her.

[797] God, how boring.

[798] Can you imagine?

[799] Just trying to read the Bible in bed.

[800] Oh, hello.

[801] That was all my entire childhood.

[802] Oh.

[803] Theology?

[804] Like, we got taught that shit in high school.

[805] That sounds so boring.

[806] I don't know any of the presidents, but we could talk about fucking Samuel 535 all day.

[807] I don't know if that's an actual chapter or, uh, um.

[808] Is that a beer?

[809] And that's a kind of, it's a kind of beer.

[810] Yes, Samuel, the great is, and low, the dark brew.

[811] washed among your hair and conditioned it and fishes and loaves and it conditioned the world and low amen my only begotten son so she's sitting now trying to get her reading done and she says she doesn't know if she fell asleep or if it was a vision or what but she knows her a fact that suddenly Angela is standing next to her bed and that's when she knew it's time to stop thinking about this and do something and she write that moment picks up the phone and calls the Dallas police and says my friend Angela was murdered in 1984 nothing's ever come of it what is somebody going to do something and she from there begins to call the police in a one -year period she called the Dallas police 750 times holy shit she just kept calling and she knew she said it wasn't like she was demanding or angry she basically was begging and just saying please please open the case please look at the evidence Can someone please do something?

[812] And you hear those stories about the longtime ones.

[813] You just hear that, like, yeah, they don't call and yell.

[814] They, like, the dad will just call them.

[815] Like, just reminding you, I'm still here.

[816] Hey, hi, how are you?

[817] Send Christmas cards.

[818] Right.

[819] Just want to let you know, like, just not letting it get out of your mind.

[820] Right, because, and as everyone knows, the police have current cases to solve on top of these cold cases.

[821] And this was back.

[822] So now it's the, you know, the 90s, the 2000s.

[823] Sorry, it's the 2000s.

[824] and they still didn't have a cold case unit.

[825] No, that's like a pretty new thing for a lot of places.

[826] Yeah.

[827] So she's basically calling to say, hey, can, hey, this old thing that, like, you don't even have time for, can you please make time for it?

[828] So every time she would talk to a different detective, every time she'd get bounced around, she was known as the, as the Pita, the Pain in the Ass.

[829] The Pain in the Ass is trying to get her friend's brutal murder, murder song.

[830] Yeah.

[831] No, but I mean, you're right.

[832] Okay, at one point, one of the policemen.

[833] that she ends up talking to on the phone tells her, you know, some cases just aren't meant to be solved.

[834] And she thinks, yeah, she thinks to herself, this one is going to be.

[835] And that's when she, so she, because of the murder and the way it affected her life, when she, where she lived with her family was in a gated community because she was felt so unsafe all the time.

[836] And she would, when she was calling these cops in Dallas and talking, she would talk to, the guy that was the head of the security of this of the where they lived their neighborhood where they lived and at one point and she was complaining she couldn't get any movement that she would ask them you know or tell them about stuff and they didn't seem to care and the man who was um the head of the security at this gated community said to her um i can sponsor you and you can become a private investigator and you can start looking into this yourself um because back then you needed this sponsor and then you had to take a test and so she was like that's what i'm going to do i love him love him love her and he yeah how cool of it of him to realize this is a woman on a mission that needs help totally and he's like i'll sponsor you do this thing so she said she she talks about it on criminal that she studied like it was a harvard entered exam she had her sons quoting like civil law to her they still remember it to this day as adults and she basically took this test and became a private investigator herself wow because then you can get the case files right yeah and yeah it has she has all this access and there's much more respectability with the police right when she's calling she's not just some lady totally suddenly she's an investigator that's there and she also had to work on you know when she first started as a private investigator she was doing like cheating cases and all those kinds of things.

[837] But the only reason she got her license was to solve Angela's murder.

[838] But she's actually working as a real private investigator simultaneously.

[839] That's so cool.

[840] She actually, her quote, there's an amazing quote in one of the articles I read where she said, the FBI has nothing on a worried mother.

[841] I'm a better investigator.

[842] So in 2006, after years and years of calling and she made a war room in her house where she like had all the, evidence.

[843] And she had finally gotten a hold of a detective named Linda Crum.

[844] And she said in her first conversation with Linda, she knew it was going to be different because suddenly somebody was listening and they were talking and there was, you know, this was now a world where cold cases were a thing you went into and that was becoming a department and all that stuff.

[845] So she talks to Linda.

[846] Linda finds out that they do have, they have blood samples, they have fingernail scrapings, they have semen, and Linda's like, we're going to send it to the lab.

[847] Hell, yes, you are.

[848] Yep.

[849] And in 2008, they get a hit.

[850] And they find out that the DNA at the crime scene belongs not to Russell Buchanan and not to anybody that they investigated, but to a man named Donald Andrew Bess, who was when they, in 2008, when they found out, serving a life sentence in Huntsville for rape.

[851] Oh, my God.

[852] He had been out on parole for rape in 1984.

[853] He saw Angie the night that everybody was out in Dallas for the big weekend and became fixated on her.

[854] He followed her home and knocked on her door and asked if he could use her bathroom and use her phone, gained access to her apartment, which at the time, and this was a product of the day.

[855] But I'm sure he was very polite and very friendly.

[856] and probably acted worried.

[857] The man was six feet tall.

[858] Wow.

[859] And weighed 350 pounds.

[860] Holy shit.

[861] There's no need to open.

[862] You don't open a door for somebody like that.

[863] Yeah, now we know, like you don't even open your door.

[864] You don't open the door.

[865] You don't say no, you can't come in.

[866] You just don't open the fucking door.

[867] And there's no reason that a man like that needs your help personally.

[868] Yeah.

[869] He could go to a gas station.

[870] There's lots of other places.

[871] So anyway.

[872] But at the time, she's just back in from the club.

[873] that it could have even been that thing where she gets in, turns around, shuts the door and then there's a knock.

[874] Yeah.

[875] She thinks it's someone like her neighbor.

[876] Yeah.

[877] Or yeah, somebody that just passed her in the, you know, there's a, there's the way your mind goes.

[878] You're like, this is fine.

[879] Yeah.

[880] But then once he's in the apartment, she immediately gets the bad feeling.

[881] She's like, what did I fucking do?

[882] Yeah.

[883] So she calls her boyfriend.

[884] And again, pre -9 -1 -1.

[885] Yeah.

[886] You can't, if there's no emergency things set up to help you and support you, you don't know what else to do.

[887] It's also that thing of, like, I'm like, well, she should have just walked out of the house, you know, and, like, left.

[888] But it's like, yeah, you don't.

[889] Go where, though?

[890] To knock on the neighbor's door, I don't know.

[891] Yeah, but I like that.

[892] Knock on the neighbor's door or just grab your keys and get into your car.

[893] Right.

[894] But the thing and like, the thing of like, I don't want to leave a stranger alone in my house.

[895] It's like, at this point, if you got some worry going on, just get the fuck out of there.

[896] Your shit will be fine.

[897] Grab your cat and get out of there.

[898] Yeah.

[899] Yeah.

[900] So what the police theorize is that he gained access to her apartment, you know, I'm sure.

[901] by being charming and nice and then once he got in there he attacked her and when um ben got to the apartment and knocked on the door he was still in there they think he that's when he stabbed her to keep her quiet uh yeah oh my god so in june of 2010 russell they they tried donald bess for uh for capital murder the jury deliberates for one hour yeah and this is after the defense defense.

[902] It's very upsetting.

[903] Sheila talks about this in an episode of criminal.

[904] The defense brought out her outfit and talked about how she was dressed provocatively and that basically she was asking for it.

[905] In 2008, they completely tried to destroy her reputation.

[906] They tried to talk about her.

[907] They tried to, they tried to act like she was getting around town type of stuff.

[908] Can you imagine being on that jury and just being like, what the fuck is going on?

[909] Like, it's almost like the convicting in an hour is telling the defense, fuck you.

[910] Yes, it is.

[911] That was not a fucking defense.

[912] That's exactly right.

[913] And this DNA match was almost 100%.

[914] Yeah.

[915] It was like it was this astronomical.

[916] It's almost like they weren't even, they weren't even saying he raped and murdered her.

[917] They were saying, she deserved it.

[918] Right.

[919] Well, he couldn't help himself because of her.

[920] Exactly right.

[921] And that jury came back and was like, no, no, no, no, no. How about, go fuck yourself?

[922] How about he gets the death sentence?

[923] Yeah?

[924] Yeah.

[925] Yeah.

[926] He's found guilty.

[927] He's given the death sentence.

[928] Sheila drove 650 miles from Nashville to Dallas to be there for the trial with her older son.

[929] Oh.

[930] Yes.

[931] And then Donald Bess is still on death row and he just lost his most recent appeal.

[932] Two years after he was convicted in February 2012, Russell Buchanan met Sheila Gibbons Wysaki.

[933] and because they both went to Dallas to film the episode of Dateline about Angela's murder and when Sheila met Russell she said to him I need your forgiveness and then she explained everything that she did to help the police try to convict him and she explained how you know they told her he'd fail that basically the storyline was that he was guilty and they needed help getting him and she always thought he was guilty she always thought he was guilty and Russell Buchanan said to her, you were just doing what you thought was right for your friend.

[934] And then when Russell Buchanan's name was cleared entirely, the Dallas police apologized to him.

[935] The current investigator pulled out his file and said, you've really been through something.

[936] And he was quoted as saying in the Dallas news that, quote, it wasn't their fault.

[937] if that was your daughter that had been killed wouldn't you want the police department to use whatever means necessary to find the truth i would as far as i'm concerned that dallas police department does not owe me an apology they never did i'm grateful for the work and the service they did that's it period oh how fucking rad is that guy oh god yeah and the part that i love the most shila ysaki i hope i'm pronouncing her last name right but i think i am um she now has her own private investigation firm in Nashville called without warning and she started out only she was only doing it for her friend angela so that she could solve that murder she said that she gets thousands of calls from families with cold case murder cases that they need help with and she does she works on about five a year oh my god and uh yeah when it is the the kind of final moment at the end of the episode of criminal.

[938] Phoebe.

[939] What's her last name?

[940] Phoebe Judge.

[941] I love her so much.

[942] She was the greatest.

[943] I'm a Phoebe Judge.

[944] I'm a Phoebe Judge.

[945] And this.

[946] She's so human.

[947] Yeah.

[948] She's so good at it.

[949] So good at that good radio stuff.

[950] Yeah.

[951] Phoebe Judge says, why did you think you could do this?

[952] And Sheila goes, I didn't.

[953] But I had to try.

[954] She deserved it.

[955] And that is a fucking horrible story.

[956] that is also so beautiful of a person who just, like, did something.

[957] That is incredible.

[958] Let's end this episode now.

[959] I won't do it this week.

[960] Or can we edit this so that yours is the end?

[961] No, just tell yours.

[962] Tell it.

[963] That was beautiful.

[964] Thank you.

[965] Yeah, good job.

[966] And good job, Phoebe Judge.

[967] Good job, Phoebe Judge.

[968] Sheila and Phoebe really gave me the book.

[969] I mean, that was, I was driving down the five just being like, this is the best story this is it this is beautiful okay I'm gonna pee oh what when you're in the bathroom you texted Daniel I'm always working do not are we recording yeah yeah Georgia did it again we took a break we took a break and then Georgia did some got some work done in the bathroom I'm just sitting there peeing what else am I supposed to do I just love it because she goes downstairs and then I get a notification on my phone as I'm sitting up here Georgia texted so -and -so I love it.

[970] Also, it's just, it thinks it's making me laugh because we cannot get away from each other.

[971] We can't get away from each other.

[972] I can't turn it off.

[973] It's just a constant thought of everything.

[974] It's constant.

[975] Busy, busy.

[976] Yeah.

[977] Good stuff.

[978] Okay.

[979] Fun stuff.

[980] All right.

[981] I am doing the Lake Bodom murders.

[982] Lake what?

[983] Bodom.

[984] Oh.

[985] Do you know them?

[986] I don't.

[987] Not by title.

[988] All right.

[989] here we go lake so lake bodum is uh in finland okay okay there it's uh so the capital of halsinki just outside of that is a town called espo and then out in right right outside on the outskirts of that is this like beautiful lake uh called lake bodom people go camping and fishing and hiking and it's just like a beautiful safe area okay so the lake bodom murders is the most famous unsolved homicide in Finnish criminal history.

[990] Wow.

[991] Unsolved as I like to do.

[992] As you like to do.

[993] Okay.

[994] So Saturday, June 4th, 1960.

[995] Here we are.

[996] And an oldie.

[997] Okay.

[998] There's two couples, two teenage couples that decide to go camping.

[999] One is 15 -year -old Myla or Melli Bjorkland.

[1000] And her four, her, so she's 15, her 18 -year -old boyfriend is named Nils Wilhelm Gustafson.

[1001] Gustafsson.

[1002] Oh, Gustafson, Gustafson.

[1003] They've been dating for about a month.

[1004] And then their friends, Anya Tuliki Mackey, she's 15 also.

[1005] And she's with her boyfriend about a year.

[1006] His name's Sepo Boyceman.

[1007] He's 18.

[1008] So two 15 -year -old girls, they're 18 -year -old boyfriends.

[1009] They set up camp.

[1010] They hang out.

[1011] They fish.

[1012] They drink some booze.

[1013] Then, you know, did fucking like teenage camping shit.

[1014] Totally.

[1015] And then they go to bed that night in the tent.

[1016] And before I realize what the real name is of this kind of tent style.

[1017] I just wrote Snoopy style tent.

[1018] But it's a pup tent.

[1019] Yes.

[1020] You know what I mean?

[1021] We're like, you just like hang a rope and you put it over it and you.

[1022] And so it's like in a Wes Anderson movie kind of a style more like a tent.

[1023] Like you're not like today's camping.

[1024] It's not high ceilings.

[1025] It's very like it's basically just an upside down V on the ground.

[1026] Exactly with some like string hanging there and here and whatever the fuck.

[1027] Got it.

[1028] So, all right.

[1029] They go to sleep.

[1030] The next morning.

[1031] at about 11 a .m., a hiker comes upon the teens campsite.

[1032] Oh, this poor hiker.

[1033] I know.

[1034] Well, actually, I, of course, looked in my favorite murder email to see if anyone had sent us anything about it.

[1035] And one woman sent us an email a murderer, you know, and she was like, the truth about this is my fucking aunt, my two aunts actually found the bodies, but it's like, all this shit happens and this guy gets credit for it.

[1036] Oh, no. But it's like, they don't, she was like, they don't really need the credit.

[1037] Yeah.

[1038] Credit is an odd word.

[1039] Right.

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] So this guy comes across the tent and he sees that it's collapsed, it's bloody and ripped up.

[1042] And upon closer investigation, he realizes that all four teens are tangled in the tent and one of the teens is laying on top of it, bloody.

[1043] He fucking takes off, calls the police, they come and there they find that tangled in the tent, the dead and bloody bodies of Myla, Anja, and Sepo.

[1044] also the two girls and one of the boys.

[1045] And on top of the tent is the badly injured body of Nils, he's unconscious.

[1046] So he's still alive.

[1047] Wow.

[1048] Investiators surmised that while the teens were sleeping in the tent, the two boys in the outside, the girls on the inside.

[1049] Oh, that's sweet and innocent.

[1050] I know.

[1051] It sounds innocent to me. Yeah.

[1052] They had been attacked by someone outside of the tent with a knife and a blunt object.

[1053] so the killer had apparently like first cut the ties so the tent collapsed so the kids are probably like confused and then just starts fucking blindly hitting and stabbing at the people in a tent so who knows if he even knew who was inside of those tents wow so uh then through the fabric nils who's the only survivor somehow managed to like kind of start to come out of it but um he sustained he survives sustained but he'd stained a concussion fractures to the jaw and facial bones and bruises to the face but he lived but he was unconscious that whole time so it must have been kind of bad right yes so he his girlfriend had received the worst of the attack Mila she was found undressed from the waist down but they don't know if she had gone to bed that way or if that had happened later they could never figure that out right and she had been stabbed multiple times after her death.

[1054] So it's kind of overkill for her, although the other two who were dead had only received, you know, what they needed to be killed, which like, who the fuck knows for sure.

[1055] Right.

[1056] But it's just, it's obvious to the police that one person got attacked more.

[1057] Right.

[1058] Yeah.

[1059] Right.

[1060] But then again, it's like, well, maybe she was on, like, closer to the person who was doing the hitting and stabbing.

[1061] Yeah, but then when you add in the, but her boyfriend is survived, even though he's injured, that's bad.

[1062] And her.

[1063] pants are gone.

[1064] Yeah.

[1065] That's bad, bad, bad, bad.

[1066] Okay.

[1067] So before the teens had been found that morning at 11, at 6 a .m., there were some boys, and they were out birdwatching.

[1068] They went towards the tent because they saw the motorcycles that the teenage boys had driven up in.

[1069] And they saw the collapsed tent, and they saw a blonde man walking away from it, but I don't think they realized anything was wrong.

[1070] So they just kept moving, but later told people, the police about that.

[1071] And they gave a description of the killer.

[1072] So while Nils is transported to the hospital for treatment, investigators call upon the fucking town to come help find the murder weapons and other items that have been taken from the scene.

[1073] Oh, no. Crowdsourcing?

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] Oh.

[1076] So this fucking crime scene and surrounding area, I get some other fucking trampled.

[1077] Mm -hmm.

[1078] Of course.

[1079] That's how they used to like to do it.

[1080] Yeah.

[1081] They say, can we get more boots over here, please?

[1082] Yeah.

[1083] Can we get the Texas cowboy boots in here?

[1084] Well, Anna, it's the funny argument of, like, when people are like, what is this true crime trend or whatever?

[1085] It's like, are you kidding me?

[1086] Read any of these stories.

[1087] The town always shows up and tries to grab shit and take it home, like, since the 1500s.

[1088] It's like a human instinct to go to the work of the place.

[1089] This is a brick from the fucking hovel that that fucking so -and -so was murdered in.

[1090] Jesus.

[1091] The oldest murder.

[1092] He was, yeah.

[1093] Shit.

[1094] Okay.

[1095] Jesus was murdered by your sins.

[1096] We can talk about it after the show.

[1097] Let's edit that out.

[1098] Okay.

[1099] Wait, hold on.

[1100] So hundreds of people scouring the area, but they can't find the murder weapon.

[1101] And murder weapons are never found, and they just fucking contaminate the whole crime scene.

[1102] The killer had taken several items from the campsite, which detectives couldn't really put together and figure out why.

[1103] So they took the keys to the victim's motorcycles, but they left the motorcycles behind.

[1104] And then they were tracks of blood that showed that the killer was wearing was wearing Nill's shoes, the kid who survived.

[1105] He was wearing his shoes when he committed and left the murder scene.

[1106] But the shoes were discovered partially hidden a little over 500 yards from the murder site along with some of the other stolen clothes.

[1107] But some stuff was completely gone, like Sepo's leather jacket.

[1108] So to me, it almost sounds like the killer grabbed a fucking bunch of shit and, like, wandered off, tried some stuff on later, left some stuff behind.

[1109] Yeah.

[1110] You know, kept what he wanted.

[1111] Or if we're still playing in the realm of like Nils might be.

[1112] Yeah.

[1113] Then he set it up.

[1114] He did it, then realized all that would be recognizable, like shoe prints and stuff.

[1115] Right.

[1116] And then tried to go hide his shoes.

[1117] Yeah.

[1118] Or like, uh, Yeah, there's all these possibilities.

[1119] And it's also hard because a lot of these articles are written in Finnish.

[1120] So the story is like there's...

[1121] You don't speak?

[1122] No. What?

[1123] Yeah.

[1124] Oh.

[1125] I know.

[1126] I'm embarrassed.

[1127] Isn't...

[1128] Didn't people when we were in Scandinavia tell us that Finish is like the hardest language?

[1129] That they don't even understand it sometimes.

[1130] So cool.

[1131] I know.

[1132] So based on the description of the boys who were bird watching as well as so Nils then gets put, he can't remember anything, so he gets put under hypnosis.

[1133] Wow.

[1134] And he tells the detectives all this information, and a creepy sketch is drawn of the potential killer.

[1135] Okay, so here's some creepy sketches.

[1136] And you can see them on our Instagram account or our Twitter account.

[1137] No, no. He just looks, what does he look like?

[1138] Well, the eyes are too big.

[1139] That looks like, okay, but just.

[1140] It looks like someone has, it looks like when people mess around with their selfie, and give themselves oversized eyes.

[1141] And like a weird kind of pug nose, big lips.

[1142] Yes.

[1143] It's weird.

[1144] Oh, and also it's a very, the face is all scrunched in the middle of the head.

[1145] Yes.

[1146] So it's big features, but then the face itself is small and the head is big.

[1147] Yeah.

[1148] And so he's this blonde man. Okay, so they give him this sketch.

[1149] Then the funeral for the teens happens, right?

[1150] And police later look at the photos of the crowds.

[1151] at the funeral, because there were hundreds of people there because it was this small town and everyone came to the funeral.

[1152] And they noticed an unidentified man in the crowd who looks almost exactly like the sketch.

[1153] Are you going to show me a picture of it?

[1154] Are you ready to be more creeped out than you've ever been in your life?

[1155] Okay, hold on.

[1156] More than Beast of Jersey mask?

[1157] Yes.

[1158] So remember, just remember that sketch you just described and how it doesn't look like a real person yeah okay oh look at that oh no it looks like a razor head yeah eraser head in the middle of the crowd it looks like they took that horrible drawing and then made it into a person's face it doesn't look like it's a person's face and it just doesn't look real I'm like reaching for the phone from Stephen like give it back because it is it looks like something's wrong with this person's face it looks like like you know Oh, you know what it looks like?

[1159] You know when that woman did that painting over the, like, antique scrolls?

[1160] And it just looked and look like, it looked like a cartooned face all the sudden.

[1161] Yes.

[1162] That's what it looks like.

[1163] Yes.

[1164] And it's in a sea of normal faces, too.

[1165] So that's weird also.

[1166] But it also looks like, I mean, we could just keep on doing this.

[1167] But there's, there's an aspect to it that has a kind of like, what's that fucking guy?

[1168] What's the director?

[1169] What's Edward Cisera Hand's director?

[1170] Oh, Timbert.

[1171] It's a Tim Burton cartoon character feel Like real dark circles under the eyes And the eyes are big and the cheekbones are big Like really white blonde hair But I guess it's fucking Finland So it's not that weird Okay We'll get back to these I just want to keep talking about it Because you know what it kind of looks like It looks like he's wearing a mask Yeah It's very fucking creepy It looks like a mask So then But nobody knows who this That person is They couldn't identify him And let's see All right So here are the suspects There's a list.

[1172] The owner of the mask shop.

[1173] I'd put him way up at the top.

[1174] My nightmares.

[1175] Okay, so Carl Vladimir Gilstrom, known by the nickname as Kioskman, because he owns a kiosk at the campsite, which I think just means you buy shit there.

[1176] Oh, right.

[1177] Food, maybe.

[1178] Sure.

[1179] But he's like a notoriously fucking asshole, hates campers where it's like, get another job then, dude.

[1180] People like to be unhappy.

[1181] That's true.

[1182] he even sometimes will throw rocks at passing children he's just a fucking grumpy asshole you can't do that i know 1960 you can you can do anything you want in Finland you can huck a rock at a child shithead camper yeah relatives so relatives tell authorities that Carl a few days after the murder filled in the well on his property uh oh and so police So, like, maybe the murder weapons are there and, like, the shit that he stole.

[1183] So police search his property, but they're like, we didn't find anything incriminating, but they didn't dig up the well.

[1184] Oh, that's the one place that would be in.

[1185] I think that they must have been like, well, let's go see what we can find.

[1186] And then based on that, we don't think we need to dig up the well.

[1187] Because also, his wife gave him an alibi and said, I was with him all night.

[1188] We were down it that well.

[1189] Right.

[1190] She gave the alibi to the well Not to him I was like That well all night She's like don't you go Don't you look at that well Don't you talk to that well But here's the thing There's no reason To fill in a well To fill in a well That's like saying We'll never need water again Yeah People build You put it like a cistern lid On the top of a well So people don't fall in Sure But you don't fucking fill it in Like sorry we're not interested In water from the ground anymore That's a good point And like yeah All right So, his wife's like, nope, totally with me, which we all know, like, fucking don't trust alibis from like moms and girlfriends and fucking boyfriends.

[1191] And people, yeah, people who have a reason to lie.

[1192] Yeah.

[1193] Or have been threatened personally by the person who they're lying for.

[1194] So years later, he supposedly is shit -faced and tells his neighbor, quote, I killed them, which could mean anything.

[1195] True.

[1196] And then while on her deathbed, his wife was like, FYI fucking totally lied for him because he threatened to kill me if I said, if I didn't give him an alibi, he said he would kill me. Of course.

[1197] Of course.

[1198] And but like then it couldn't be completely verified.

[1199] She had said it to a friend.

[1200] He said that to the neighbor while I was drunk.

[1201] And then in 1969, he kills himself reportedly by drowning in Lake Bodum.

[1202] oh which is like fucking creepy yeah and thematic and weird yeah also FYI we don't say committing suicide anymore I read about that yeah it's interesting yeah so I just want to make sure I say the right term yes um so the morning okay then here's another dude this dude I fucking think did it oh but everyone in fucking Finland thinks someone else did it okay so this dude the more like this person oh I'll let you tell me more than well guy but well I mean Wells, yeah, he's a good one.

[1203] They're all good, is the problem.

[1204] So the morning after the murders, this fucking dude named Hans Asman.

[1205] One ass or two?

[1206] A -S -S -M -A -N -N.

[1207] Oh, come on.

[1208] I swear to good.

[1209] Your language isn't that hard to learn after all.

[1210] He's German.

[1211] So he, this dude, Hans.

[1212] He's really into legs.

[1213] He's an assman.

[1214] He's an ass man. He goes in, Stephen, don't laugh.

[1215] Don't be immature.

[1216] Oh, no. Steven's whole head is red.

[1217] Steven's just spray red.

[1218] Steven, don't be immature.

[1219] This is a serious subject.

[1220] It's tension.

[1221] We're laughing from the tension.

[1222] He goes to the Helsinki Surgical Hospital and he's fucking disheveled.

[1223] He has black under his fingernails and his clothes are covered in red stains.

[1224] Uh -oh.

[1225] And his behavior is super fucking sketchy and weird.

[1226] The doctors and nurses all say he lies to them about why he looks the way he looks.

[1227] And when they're like, question him further, he fucking pretends.

[1228] to be unconscious.

[1229] What?

[1230] Goodbye.

[1231] Like just closed his head to the side.

[1232] Where were you last night?

[1233] Good night.

[1234] Yeah.

[1235] I'm unconscious.

[1236] Aspen.

[1237] Wake up.

[1238] I'm an Aspen.

[1239] And he's aggressive and nervous other time.

[1240] So he's fucking sketchballs.

[1241] And it turns out, so he's from Germany.

[1242] It was said to he, he maybe started the rumor or it's true.

[1243] It's hard to tell.

[1244] He served as a guard in none other than Auschwitz.

[1245] No. So he's a fucking, we.

[1246] hate this guy.

[1247] Serves none other than Auschwitz.

[1248] I'm sorry, but that might need to be the title.

[1249] Well, it's like, it's like the one.

[1250] You know what I mean?

[1251] It's not like, you know, fucking Birkenau.

[1252] It's like the fucking top of the line.

[1253] Not to say that one is worse, you know, Jesus.

[1254] Not Jesus.

[1255] Cut all of this out.

[1256] If, no, no. If you're going to name a concentration camp, Auschwitz is the one, everybody's heard of.

[1257] None other than.

[1258] None other than.

[1259] And yeah, all the other ones, there were so fucking many.

[1260] Yeah.

[1261] He is a guard at Auschwitz, but supposedly he became romantic.

[1262] He fell in love with a Jewish girl, which is like, honey, that's not how it works.

[1263] I mean, yeah, then you should, you, okay, go ahead.

[1264] No, it's really problematic.

[1265] I was going to, I was going to give ass man some advice, but that's, I think we're past that.

[1266] So he is, they're like, fuck you and send him to the front lines.

[1267] Oh.

[1268] Where he, gets captured by Soviets and recruited to be a KGB spy.

[1269] Whoa.

[1270] So this guy's like just topping the fucking top of the line piece of shit.

[1271] And just having tons of bad experiences also.

[1272] Yeah.

[1273] I think that's it like went from, well, he was okay probably as a Nazi.

[1274] They were in power.

[1275] And then it's like suddenly he's in a bad place.

[1276] Yeah.

[1277] So his clothing matches the description of the Lake Voda murderer.

[1278] And he like like a couple days after there.

[1279] after watching the news about what happened cuts his blonde hair short.

[1280] Oh, uh -oh.

[1281] He lived just a short distance from the lake and at the time at the time, but he claimed to have a solid alibi also.

[1282] So the police only had a brief meeting with Asman and found little since they didn't want to cross -examine the doctors.

[1283] So like they kind of didn't look into him and a lot of people think it's because of the KGB connection that they didn't go after him to...

[1284] Too scary.

[1285] Yeah.

[1286] That makes sense.

[1287] So they didn't cross -examine the doctors.

[1288] They didn't take a stained clothing in for examination to even see if it was fucking paint or whatever, you know, maybe.

[1289] It was just red stained clothing and that's all they knew.

[1290] Yep.

[1291] And in spite of the fact that the doctors in attendance were certain that it was blood.

[1292] And in fact, a doctor, Jorma Paolo at the hospital, he was one of the doctors to initially examine Aspen.

[1293] He goes on to write three books about Asman.

[1294] He became obsessed with Asman.

[1295] I bet.

[1296] and um he a former detective can i say one joke yeah can we just put up to square out a little time yeah so that i can say he also went on to write the famous song baby got back that was not worth it stephen are you make me funny are you proud of yourself here no it feels so bad it feels terrible so former detective mattie wait stephen liked it steven um uh okay former detective mattie Polaro, even when so far is to connect him with five other unsolved murders.

[1297] Fucks.

[1298] Including Kailiki Sari's murder in Issojoki.

[1299] I've got that wrong.

[1300] And the Tula Hithi double murders in Hinawesi.

[1301] I don't know.

[1302] A couple other murders.

[1303] We're going to find out from our friends over in Scandinavia.

[1304] They're going to say this is how you say it and it's going to be illegible.

[1305] It's going to be unreadable.

[1306] So it's not going to help.

[1307] that's not true because they A, speak great English and then B, they can do a phonetic spell.

[1308] Right.

[1309] Where they're like, it's d, we've gotten a couple good ones of those.

[1310] That's true, right.

[1311] I'm sorry.

[1312] Appalachia, baby.

[1313] That's right.

[1314] So, um, and one of those murders took place 10 months prior to the Lake Boda murders.

[1315] So he thinks this guy's like a fucking serial killer.

[1316] Also, if he was a Nazi guard.

[1317] Yeah.

[1318] He has experienced and participated in things that are so beyond, yeah, monstrous and amylistic that he, there's a chance that either it's a kind of a PTSD like this is a thing I need to keep doing yeah I mean like he had a taste for it and he was one of those people like there's it makes so much sense yeah you don't just like participate in the the complete destruction and annihilation of these people and then walk away and you like power over all of them too so you can do whatever the fuck you want yes and then get over it yeah and then just go like oh I'm gonna live by lake now and everything's cool yeah and he also had okay and now me show you his photo.

[1319] Uh -oh.

[1320] Keep in mind those two other ones I just showed you.

[1321] I'll never fucking forget them.

[1322] Well, get ready for a fucking exhibit C. Okay, because here we go.

[1323] Yeah.

[1324] No. It's identical.

[1325] He looks like a, it looks like him.

[1326] Yes, it certainly does.

[1327] Right?

[1328] It's almost like the human version of that face.

[1329] And then the guy at the funeral was like a crazy Halloween version of that face.

[1330] Totally.

[1331] Show Stephen.

[1332] or don't it's him I mean it looks like him I think he did it those eyes wow that's such a disturbing face yeah he almost looks like Udo Kier you know that actor the character actor that always plays like he has light blue eyes and silver hair and he always kind of just plays the creepy foreign guy that's judging something like a talent contest could be um okay so da da da da da da blah blah okay there's another guy who can passes like people just keep confessing whatever I don't think this guy has anything to do with it cut to late March 2004 oh 44 years after the murder the case is reopened and the bloodstains are analyzed again which leads finished police to declare that the case has been solved based on new evidence and including the sudden testimony out of nowhere of a woman claiming to have been camping nearby that day but it's like new she's like oh yeah I was I forgot to tell you guys I was there that day.

[1333] Come on, where was she?

[1334] Yeah.

[1335] Why didn't she speak up?

[1336] That's when they arrest none other than Nils Gustafson for the murder of his friends and girlfriend.

[1337] No!

[1338] Yes.

[1339] He had gone on to live a relatively normal life.

[1340] He raised a family, retired from a long career as a school bus driver, and he's fucking arrested.

[1341] No. According to the official statement, Nils, they think Nils erupted in jealous anger over his feelings, over his girlfriend at the time, Bjorkland, they believe that he had gotten into a scuffle with his friend, the other dude, and that's how he sustained his injuries.

[1342] So it wasn't even like he did them to himself to make it look like he was also attacked.

[1343] Right.

[1344] Like they got into a fight, then he did that.

[1345] So, yeah, their proof was that Milo was the main target.

[1346] So that was his girlfriend.

[1347] Yeah.

[1348] And they say that Nils's injuries were superficial and self -inflicted also.

[1349] So like a little of both.

[1350] I guess.

[1351] Which, okay, so I have a hard time with because then, like, why would he lay there until 11 o 'clock?

[1352] And, you know, if it happened at 6 a .m. And he would, why would he lay there until, we're trying to be unconscious until 11?

[1353] Wouldn't he get up and go find someone and be like, oh, we were attacked?

[1354] And I'm.

[1355] I mean, that would make more sense.

[1356] But maybe he, I mean, who knows?

[1357] He's crazy enough to do it in the first place.

[1358] But maybe he just, like, laid there.

[1359] I was just like, okay, this is going to be the best, most realistic way.

[1360] for me to get away with this.

[1361] Yeah, but what if he, what if it happened when the people saw a man walking away at 6 a .m. That's fucking five hours.

[1362] But maybe he was like, if he, maybe he wasn't laying there the entire time.

[1363] Maybe he was like, he went and hit his shoes and he did this and he fucked around or whatever.

[1364] And then then maybe hurt a car, hurt someone and then ran over and acted like he'd been laying there.

[1365] Okay.

[1366] So trial starts on August, in August of 2005, the new witness who had only come forward a year prior for a documentary interview which is like oh honey where were you you were nowhere she claims that the two teen boys had entered her tent and that nils had been behaving aggressively with her that night huh which i don't believe the defense argued that the murders were a work of one or more outsiders and that nils would have been incapable of killing three people given the extent of his injuries because like you've got a fucking fractured jaw you're not like you know what i mean yes um unless you're in a full rage yeah and you're in shock and you can't feel your injuries which a lot of people have talked about having happened.

[1367] Well guess what?

[1368] Oh.

[1369] Nils gets fucking convicted.

[1370] Oh.

[1371] But after serving one year, it was granted in October 2005, the district court found Nils Gustafsson not guilty of all charges against him.

[1372] They were like, no, no, that shouldn't have happened.

[1373] Wow.

[1374] Yeah.

[1375] And he's circumstantial?

[1376] I think, yeah.

[1377] Okay.

[1378] So on his acquittal, the state of Finland pays him 44 ,000 euro.

[1379] for mental suffering caused by the long time in jail that he spent.

[1380] But people still think he's guilty there, of course.

[1381] And so here's what I think fucking happened.

[1382] Remember that, remember in Oregon, on our live show, I did the case.

[1383] Yes, of those people camping and the man that looked like a cowboy.

[1384] Yeah.

[1385] And the girl wrote the book.

[1386] Okay, so it's the story of Terry Jens, J -E -N -Z, the book's.

[1387] called a strange piece of paradise.

[1388] It's fucking great.

[1389] So she was camping with a girlfriend of hers and this fucking, what she thinks happened, she has to solve the case on her own is fucking some dude and a crazy, you know, I just got dumped by his girlfriend somewhere else, had seen earlier and, you know, knew that there were two girls camping alone and just went, took it out on them.

[1390] Yeah.

[1391] And fucking attacked them in this kind of the same manner, like, while they were in the tent.

[1392] And he was in the outside.

[1393] And so it's some fucking crazy person who maybe, maybe they like cut him off earlier on the road or maybe they like yelled something at him they're these teenagers you know yes and nils doesn't remember because he got a fucking concussion and this guy just went crazy i feel like i feel like attacking from the outside of the tent while you can't even see where the people are inside is just not about anything but rage yeah it's not personal it's not about one person in the in the tent it's just you just start swinging yeah you're just trying to inflict pain and war on people.

[1394] And then the thing about like there's missing shoes, he tries to steal these shoes, he steals a jacket is like, is this person on the run already?

[1395] And he's trying to get fucking clothing that looks, you know, that he can use as a disguise.

[1396] Yeah.

[1397] Or is he just kind of out on his own and doesn't have a lot of money and he's like, I need this.

[1398] But then why would he, oh, if you took that motorcycle, yeah.

[1399] You'd get caught with a motorcycle and that'd be like, right.

[1400] Open and shut.

[1401] Right.

[1402] Maybe he doesn't know how to drive a motor.

[1403] cycle maybe he's too small it's a baby he's a tiny baby um so they when they tested the blood on the shirt it was nils's blood and that's what made them go he did it when they tested the shoe they tested his shoes i can't tell exactly but they did test his shoes and all three of the murder victim's blood were on his shoes except for his oh which could be explained in a number of different ways.

[1404] Right.

[1405] But there is also no supposedly no other blood type at the scene.

[1406] Oh.

[1407] But I mean, there's a, you know, if that's all you have is circumstantial evidence, that's not enough.

[1408] Right.

[1409] Well, yeah, especially in this situation where it's, there's, there's seem to be a million possibilities.

[1410] Right.

[1411] And you have fucking evidence that I think it was, maybe even another person saw someone, a blonde person leaving the fucking scene.

[1412] Yeah.

[1413] So there's, they put another person there.

[1414] yeah and those the face of the guy at the funeral i mean dude if i was a cop i'd just be like we just need to figure out a way to get this guy up the street yeah i don't even know who is it looks like the thing has a cousin who's a surfer and he's an ass man and he is an ass man from finland yeah from germany from germany living in finland visiting finland from russia spent some time in russia after college via russia and the case of the kj b putin Karen solved it It's Putin Jesus And that's the Lake Bodom murders They'll probably never be solved To this day God And can you believe they took him After all that time After going through that And they took him to fucking court and convicted him And then recanted Yeah I want to know more about the woman Who got interviewed for the documentary And what her deal is I'm sure she's super normal I bet she's regular.

[1415] She just thinks things through.

[1416] God, that's fascinating.

[1417] Also, it does, I, as awful as that story is that you did the, the, sorry, the Portland.

[1418] Terry Jones, yeah.

[1419] Yeah.

[1420] That story is incredible.

[1421] It's, the book, it's incredible.

[1422] It's like, this woman is a fucking fighter and she goes to try to solve her own case, you know, 20 fucking years after it happened.

[1423] Yeah.

[1424] Yeah.

[1425] It's a really great book.

[1426] I listen to it on tape and I, or audio.

[1427] Her name's Terry J -E -N -T -Z.

[1428] And it's strange piece of paradise.

[1429] I highly recommend the audio book.

[1430] Yeah.

[1431] Yeah.

[1432] That was a great story when I told it.

[1433] Wow.

[1434] Amazing.

[1435] Yeah.

[1436] Thank you.

[1437] Crazy, right?

[1438] Yeah.

[1439] Cool.

[1440] Wow.

[1441] Guys, we did it.

[1442] We did it.

[1443] We got through this.

[1444] It's only been 45 minutes.

[1445] Yeah.

[1446] It's a record for us.

[1447] It really is.

[1448] We learned.

[1449] We loved.

[1450] We levitated We've been levitating this all time We have been levitating and You can too if you just join the fan cult Magical power Do you have a fucking hooray for this week?

[1451] I do Let us hear it So it turns out and murderinos do more good shit In the world of that Murderina's doing good stuff They keep doing it They just keep doing it so this woman named Charlotte emailed us to let us know that they that so there was a fundraiser started for races R -A -I -C -E -S and so races R -A -I -C -E -S I hope I'm fucking saying that right is the largest immigration legal services provider in Texas and so this woman named Charlotte and this guy named Dave started a fundraiser on Facebook called reunite an immigrant parent with their child.

[1452] And it's raising money to do just that, which is fucking incredible.

[1453] And I mean, this is, these stories were why I donated money in my mother's name is because it was just making me heartbroken.

[1454] And it still is.

[1455] They were going to try to raise 10 million, but they've raised 20 million.

[1456] Well, their first, are you talking about races?

[1457] Are you talking about the murdering us?

[1458] This is a fundraiser.

[1459] It's not murderino specific, but it turns out that Charlotte emailed us to let us know that they're murderingos.

[1460] Oh, right.

[1461] But I'm saying you don't mean races.

[1462] You mean these individuals.

[1463] Yes.

[1464] Because races, when they put their thing up, their goal as a, as that nonprofit, the day that that story broke, when they put it up, they were like, we hope to raise $5 ,000.

[1465] And they raised like several million.

[1466] Yeah.

[1467] Like they're, they're getting so many donations that they're, they had just like set up a whole other system of like how they're going to like actually put this.

[1468] money out and it's such an amazing beautiful response to such a disgusting fucking frightening thing that's happening where they're actually interesting that we're talking about concentration camps that's what these fucking are yeah that's what the government is setting up a hundred percent yeah um and so the where these are the helpers you know and they're taking action and they I mean how much are they raised I think that so I don't I can't I think it's 20 million in 12 days.

[1469] And so you can go to reunite an immigrant parent with their child, fundraiser for races by Charlotte and Dave.

[1470] It's on Facebook.

[1471] I will donate as well.

[1472] Or, you know, donate to wherever you can that makes you feel good and makes you feel like, you know, your money's going to a good place.

[1473] Yep.

[1474] Even if it's five fucking dollars, it's a good thing to do.

[1475] Yeah.

[1476] Do that.

[1477] And then my fucking hurry for this week will be, I just, I went to therapy this morning.

[1478] Um, it was an especially good, uh, sesh with my therapist because I had been out of town for a week.

[1479] Uh, that's always good.

[1480] But it was making me, I get, these days I'm very philosophical in therapy because I've been in it for so long.

[1481] Yeah.

[1482] And I will say this, you know, there's lots people who tell us I started therapy because you guys talk about it.

[1483] And I want to say this to people who start and maybe they're feeling like plateau type of feelings like, oh, I've been in therapy for X number of years and I'm not getting what I thought I would get or something.

[1484] Don't put some kind of weird expectation time limit on your therapy.

[1485] Go to therapy and show up every week trying to learn something about yourself.

[1486] I swear to God, if you can just stay in it, like when I first went to therapy, I said to my therapist, I just need to know how to not say things that I don't want to say out loud it at work so that people don't hate me and I don't hate everybody.

[1487] It was real basic and I thought she was just going to give me some tips and tricks and I'd be how it's there.

[1488] That you don't do.

[1489] Yes, exactly.

[1490] Just give me, what do normal people do and teach me that and I'm going to be out of here?

[1491] Is there, do I put a jelly button in a jar every time I fucking rubber band on the wrist?

[1492] Did I say jelly button?

[1493] You said a jelly button, but and I don't see a can of wine anywhere near you.

[1494] I am not drinking today.

[1495] Oh, this is all me. I can never blame it on fucking boo.

[1496] Jelly button.

[1497] Jelly button.

[1498] Yeah, no, it's, I guess my point is, like, something, she was saying something about, that we're trying to take off the armor of ego.

[1499] That's what we were talking about today.

[1500] And how hard it is, because it's about vulnerability.

[1501] But it's taken me 13 years to be in a discussion where we're talking about taking off the armor of ego.

[1502] Because for a long time, I wanted to talk about how I don't have any problems, but what's everybody else going to do?

[1503] And how are we going to trick everybody else into doing what I want?

[1504] Yeah.

[1505] And I just will say, and there were times where, like, when I went through, when I left my ex and moved to New York, I stopped calling my therapist.

[1506] And she would call me like every two to three weeks and be like, can we talk about why you don't want to talk to me?

[1507] And I was just like, I can't talk to anybody.

[1508] You're allowed to do that and still go back to therapy.

[1509] The same therapist, too.

[1510] Yeah.

[1511] They're not mad at you.

[1512] If you want to switch, if you want to say they're mad at you, whatever.

[1513] But, like, I went back and she was like, I want to talk about why you didn't trust me to even.

[1514] And I said, can we just not talk about that now?

[1515] And then we sideline it for three years.

[1516] And then we went back to it later.

[1517] But I'm so thankful that I have this person that keeps me honest that through, like, kind of dark times is the one that goes, yeah, but can I remind you?

[1518] And that basically is like, that's all well and good, you know, your complaints.

[1519] you're whatever you want to do.

[1520] You're trying to get away with.

[1521] But yeah, but how about we talk about disarming the ego?

[1522] The real reason.

[1523] That we all have problems is because we're so scared to be vulnerable or so scared to be ourselves and we're so scared to be in the moment.

[1524] Or we become these people because of trauma, past trauma, or the way we were raised and all this crazy shit.

[1525] Which is valid.

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] And our reactions about our trauma from the past are valid.

[1528] It's the way our brains get trained to work because of what happened to us.

[1529] but it doesn't mean that we have to live in it it doesn't mean that we have to like continue to do it totally we can retrain ourselves and we can we can just try something new and I'm I don't know it just seemed for so long I just didn't have any hope for myself for so long because it's like nah I'm just this way and I'm kind of like this and yeah it's just stuck in it like it's never going to change it's too much work to change yeah I don't want to unpack this fucking painful shit right and that's all fine but that's the fear telling you don't leave the house it's not worth trying you know whatever so I don't know I love it don't it's not all it's not easy but it's so good for you yeah let's say again psychology today on their website has a really great therapy therapist and psychologist and psychiatrist directory yep just put your zip code in a lot of them have photos so you kind of like that woman has a kind face I sure reminds me of my elementary school too like that's kind of how I found mine same here yeah exactly the same I found a couple therapists on on psychology today.

[1530] Yeah.

[1531] And you get to shop until you find the one that you want to tell the worst possible thing you could tell to.

[1532] That's right.

[1533] Shop around, make it work for you, but keep on putting in the work.

[1534] Yeah.

[1535] Good job.

[1536] We're proud of you.

[1537] And we're very proud of you.

[1538] Very happy to be in this fucking community.

[1539] This podcast has changed our lives in so many ways.

[1540] But more than anything, it just makes us feel armed with so many incredible people and so many badasses.

[1541] And so many, I don't know.

[1542] No, you're right.

[1543] It's like a circuit.

[1544] It's whatever we're doing for you, you're also doing for us.

[1545] It really, it's pretty amazing.

[1546] And we feel lucky and reach out to people if you're feeling stressed out.

[1547] And if you need help lately, it makes sense that you need help lately.

[1548] We all do.

[1549] Awesome.

[1550] Thanks, guys.

[1551] Thanks for listening.

[1552] Stay sexy.

[1553] And don't get murdered.

[1554] Goodbye.

[1555] Elvis, you want a cookie?

[1556] Goodbye.

[1557] Yeah.

[1558] Good boy.

[1559] No.