Roman Kemp: Why Communication Is More Important Than Ever

[0] Basically, that documentary became my own therapy.

[1] She said he's gone.

[2] Still such a weird thing that people don't want to talk about, but yet is the biggest killer in men our age.

[3] Roman Camp is truly remarkable and deeply inspiring.

[4] It's all about creating tools, you know, in our brain to learn how to deal with these issues.

[5] Your brain becomes Mike Tyson and is just beating you up.

[6] And you've not had one boxing lesson in your life.

[7] So you just can't do anything.

[8] You're just taking it.

[9] If you had told me 10 years ago, that would be my job and that's what people would know me for.

[10] I honestly would not even know where that would have even started.

[11] I'm pleased that I've got a good core friend group around me. I'm glad that I've got my parents around me. I've glad that I've gone out there and I've taught myself the tools that I need to go and fight Mike Tyson in there and be able to go up against him.

[12] And that's why I feel passionate to be able to go and do that for kids now.

[13] Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Dyer of a CEO.

[14] I hope nobody's listening.

[15] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[16] Roman.

[17] What were you like as a kid?

[18] Tell me. As a kid, I was, I'd say, verging on attention seeer.

[19] And yet, always just performing, I guess.

[20] I loved mimicking and doing impressions and things like that.

[21] Like when I first realized that I could do impressions, I would do non -stop.

[22] And I would go.

[23] go home, I'd watch my teachers and I'd say to my parents, oh, this is what my teacher did today and I wouldn't just say what they said.

[24] I would perform it for them, how they did it.

[25] So I think I was very much so like high energy kid.

[26] I would say, verging on an ADHD kind of assumption, but it was definitely a big change kind of when I went through my teenage years.

[27] brothers and sisters older sister 302 very different from you yeah but to be honest like she yeah she is to be honest she she kind of she's someone that her name's harley harley moon one word very pretentious parents basically doesn't necessarily mean anything i think my parents were must have been slightly intoxicated after the birth and it was a full moon so they named her Harley Moon but kids with Harley Moon and Roman at that time were a little bit strange so yeah just no greater meaning other than the very pretentious parents but yeah she she's she's an amazing kind of person I got my work ethic from her from your sister from my sister yeah my mom and my dad are are really supportive and they're always like, you know, there in terms of like anything I do is great.

[28] They love it.

[29] Like, couldn't ask for better parents.

[30] But Harley was the first person I knew that she went out at 15 and was straight away, 14, whatever it was.

[31] It was like, I need to get a Saturday job straight away.

[32] Like, she was the one doing it.

[33] Like, she wanted to do it.

[34] She was asking my parents, when can she go and do it?

[35] And I used to be quite, there's part of me that was a bit jealous of that because she kind of had this like maturity quite early on where she was making money.

[36] And she went out there and she became a portraits photographer and then a big celebrity portraits photographer and was being hugely successful.

[37] So she was that person that I was like, I need to keep up, basically.

[38] When you say, I need to keep up, basically, a lot of the stuff that I read about you and your relationship with your dad in particular, there was some, it felt like from reading what I read, that there was some issues with you feeling, I guess not good enough because of his, because of the fact that he had been so successful in his career as Martin Camp.

[39] Is that accurate?

[40] Yes and no. Because to be honest, I'm so, again, I'm so lucky because the parents that I have are so supportive of what I want to do.

[41] And it's the same way, however they've parented me is the same way I want to be with my children.

[42] I'm a massive family person.

[43] I believe that everything I'm doing now is for my family and to create better people.

[44] But I think with my dad and my mum, in that respect you know my mom was part of the first group uh to ever um perform in asia do you know what i mean like in terms of wham and peps in shirley was insane you know my dad part of spandau and acting career and all these types of things i'm insanely proud of that so for me to then say i'm not good enough for it or could never better it puts a downer on those things, I think.

[45] So I put it kind of in separate boxes.

[46] I'm not trying to emulate them because in my head, they will always be my heroes.

[47] I sat here with Eddie Hahn and a lot of the people like Umar from, from he runs pretty little thing .com and his dad obviously runs boohoo .com, which is, you know, the founders.

[48] And they, they often spoke to that feeling of when you've got successful parents, it can feel like a, there can be thoughts that creep in that make you think, um, often illogically especially in the case of all those individuals I've described that you've got you've got like a you know a mountain to emulate or there's you know there's pressure that yeah but that's that's society like like like I always use this as an example it's like you know you look at you look at any any famous kid like that there is me myself being an offspring of someone who is famous two people that are famous I will still look at you know Brooklyn Beckham and see him getting a scholarship for a photography thing and go, oh, I bet he's got that because of his dad.

[49] And I'll catch myself doing that.

[50] And but that's a normal thing to feel.

[51] That's a normal thing to feel.

[52] I'm sure he hasn't.

[53] I'm sure he's got great talents.

[54] But I fully understand why people would look at me and go, oh, he's got to where he is because of his dad.

[55] Let me say, at the beginning, I asked my dad, hook me up, like, help me out.

[56] And he couldn't, like, he genuinely, like, because of what I wanted to do is different.

[57] But I would say with my dad, it's never, it's never, the pressure and with my mom it's never the pressure of how well you're doing and like you know tick this off tick this off look what i've done you've got to do this this this this this this this this this this it's not that the hardest thing with my old man and my mom for that man is the public perception of them is how it is which is they are so nice and like there are these amazing people i always feel like for for me and my sister there's more of a pressure for me to be able to have a good relationship and a wife that in the way that my dad has, that for me is more of a pressure than anything to do with work.

[58] The relationship that they have weighs massively on me because I don't want to ever go through a divorce.

[59] I don't want to ever, you know, go through problems because they never did.

[60] So when people ask me that question, I'd rather like, I'd do anything to have their relationship over their career.

[61] Yeah, yeah.

[62] When you were that age, say like 14, 15, when you were thinking about what you wanted to be when you grew up, what was your aspirations at that point um uh kind of for i signed the record i signed a uh a record deal uh at 15 um which came through in such a weird way like like it was like meeting people and someone saying oh would you would you want to try and do would you want to try and do songwriting and i had an interest in it and i worked with a few people worked in management companies as a saturday job and then they were like yeah cool let's do it and i signed a development deal with the universal news music, which basically means you're the labels bitch, right, where you'll be a part of any project that they want you to be a part of.

[63] So they basically own any output that you have.

[64] And what you can do?

[65] Oh, I mean, you got paid at 15.

[66] It was okay.

[67] And look, at the same time, I was being able to sit in meetings with people who are now heads of labels and, you know, meet all these people and kind of grasp and understanding.

[68] It's definitely helped with me now, having, you know, interviewed so many artists in terms of what they're going through because I've witnessed some form of that.

[69] And I did that for three years, about three years from when I was 15 to 18.

[70] Hey, listen, when I signed a deal at 15 and then I went in to do my GCSEs.

[71] Now, when I did bad at my GCSEs, I couldn't care less.

[72] I literally walked into some of my GCSEs.

[73] I walked in the room, signed my name or walked out.

[74] I got a you in maths because I just signed my name.

[75] like I was distracted at that age and I kind of guess I knew I didn't know exactly what it was but I knew that world was normal to me and and like the music world was normal to me the film world was normal to me because I've grown up in it and I guess that's why I wanted to do it it's never been anything to do with fame in our house do you know what I mean like the idea of what you want to do when you're older was never attached to oh well I'll be really famous if I do that.

[76] Yeah.

[77] What was your first sort of real, real job then?

[78] Real job.

[79] Yeah, so, no, so I basically, I did, I did Universal for a while and worked, you know, in a bands and in bands and projects or whatever, right?

[80] And I then reached a point where that all ended, like really abruptly, partly because I just couldn't do it anymore.

[81] And it was a lot.

[82] I felt like it was a lot to take in and I remember just sitting with my mom and just like I was like I was like I just I can't be a part of this like this is too much like the expectation on young kids in a music industry is a lot what was what was them well it's like it's it's a lot you're putting in your own emotional being into you know music or into you know this this kind of like thing I guess the only way I can describe it is how you know kids must feel if they're young footballers and they're trying to make it and they get cut from teams.

[83] It's a lot of emotion going up and down and up and down.

[84] You know, you win at one point and then the loss is so hard.

[85] And when you're going through puberty, imagine that at the same time.

[86] You don't know how to handle that.

[87] And what were they trying to make you into a songwriter?

[88] No, so I was part of bands mostly.

[89] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[90] So they put me in bands.

[91] Like I was, you know, bass playing.

[92] Or it was like, oh, would you want to write a song for other people?

[93] Do you want to do this, this and that?

[94] And don't get me wrong.

[95] It was an amazing experience and one that I would still do now, 100%.

[96] I think that, again, it's everything that I've done obviously makes me the person that I am now and gives me the ability to do what I do now.

[97] And I just, at that point, had just reached a moment where I was like, I can't do it anymore.

[98] So, and then I said to my mom, I was like, I was like, I need to do something that is nowhere near media.

[99] And I'm just going to go and get a regular job every day.

[100] And I ended up getting a job basically just cleaning toilets and, cleaning equipment in a gym near me. And I did that for about a year and a half.

[101] And it was horrible.

[102] Fucking how.

[103] A year and a half is it?

[104] It was, it wasn't great.

[105] It wasn't great.

[106] I went out there.

[107] I did, I got all the, what was it, PC qualifications and all that type of stuff so that I could work in a, in a gym.

[108] But literally, it's just glorified toilet cleaner, essentially.

[109] Like I was just cleaning running machines for about a year and a half.

[110] And then during that, time, I kind of realized that my creative side was like really struggling in terms of like I couldn't, I've always wanted to create and do stuff.

[111] So I knew how to like edit film and I knew how to film as well.

[112] And so with my money from working at the gym, I went out with DSLR started filming stuff and filming for friends and like rappers and like grime music videos.

[113] and things like that, just to make some extra cash.

[114] And at the same time, like, on the weekends, I'd just make my own stuff.

[115] And I'd put it on YouTube.

[116] And I'd just have fun with it.

[117] You know, I knew that world was a world because I was, I'd come from a school where I sat next, my classmate was KSI.

[118] Yeah.

[119] But in that moment, you're like, so I know that's possible.

[120] And I think that's something that's so important for so many people when they know it's possible.

[121] And that's the problem with, you know, sometimes that's where I think people get stuck in worst case.

[122] And worst case to say it is a class system because they don't know what you can do and what your potential could go to.

[123] Yeah.

[124] But, you know, I'd seen JJ do it.

[125] I'd see Simon do it and all those types of kids.

[126] And I was like, you know what, this is an amazing thing that they're doing.

[127] I'll give it a go.

[128] And from there, I would have suddenly just kind of turn it into this presenter role, I guess.

[129] Did you ever have an intention of doing presenting?

[130] No, God, no. Absolutely not.

[131] I would have been very happy just doing camera.

[132] Genuinely, I love, like, I've always, still to this day, I will stand by, by the time I'm 60, I want have at least directed one feature film.

[133] 100%.

[134] You'll do it, 100%.

[135] No, I know I'll do it because I'll make it happen.

[136] I don't get how low budget it is, but I will do it.

[137] So how, so tell me about your first proper presenting gig then and how that came about.

[138] There was a football company called Football Daily.

[139] I knew them.

[140] Yeah.

[141] And so this was right at the start of when they started out.

[142] And there were just a group of lads that were just pushing out content.

[143] And I just had this idea for a video that was based on like a football pickup line video.

[144] And it was just silly.

[145] And they were like, well, could you just go out and film it for us?

[146] And I was like, yeah, fine.

[147] And then they were like, actually, do you want to just be in it?

[148] and do it if that would be because it was cheaper and quicker so I was like okay I'll just go out and do it and then from that they then started asking me to go on to like chat about football I mean football something is so massive in terms of my life I'm an asshole fan I'm sorry about that but how are you Man United oh Man United where you from London I don't hear a Mancunian accent so that's pretty Man United no so but you know it's like I started doing like silly kind of prank videos that then turn into chatting, but it kind of all merged into one.

[149] I ended up getting gigs with Channel 4, MTV.

[150] Capital were asking me to do like outside broadcasty bits, basically just like for the breakfast show, they'll go, let's cross over to Roman, who's at Wimbledon.

[151] You know what I mean?

[152] But those are so important.

[153] Those are every, like, you know, with presenting is, is air miles, is you've got to do it.

[154] Like, and you've got to do all of those jobs because they throw different challenges to you every time, you know, and they will come back and you'll look back and you'll go, I'm so pleased I did that really shit job because I know what I got out of it.

[155] You know, there's no, there's never a thing as a bad job ever, because you will always get one thing out of it, whether that just solely be.

[156] I've done jobs like I never want to talk about ever again in my life, like in terms of like how bad they were.

[157] But I learned that from them.

[158] So the next time I come to that point and I go, hang on, this is one of them.

[159] Yeah.

[160] So therefore it was a good job to take.

[161] I'm not making that mistake later.

[162] At that time in your life, did you, did you at that point have an idea of what you wanted to do in the future when you were doing the Football Daily stuff?

[163] If I'm honest, I wanted to, I just wanted to be football presenting because that's what I loved and I was enjoying myself.

[164] I was happy.

[165] And I was at a point where I feel like, I'm getting paid to do something good.

[166] I don't feel like I should be paid for, you know.

[167] And I think that's, that's always been my focus, always.

[168] It always has been, am I happy doing it?

[169] Yes.

[170] Okay, we'll keep on doing it.

[171] And I think that's the most important with anyone.

[172] My mom actually, again, it was a conversation with my mom that she said to me, she was like, what is it that you want to do?

[173] And I was like, I don't know.

[174] I don't know.

[175] You know, I had so many things.

[176] I was like, should I try and be an actor?

[177] Because that's what my dad did.

[178] there should I try and do music because that's what my mom and dad do.

[179] Should I stay there?

[180] And then she was like, no, no, no, but forget about that.

[181] What do you, like, what makes you happy?

[182] And I was just like, I don't know.

[183] I'm just chatting about football with my mates.

[184] She was like, well, why can't you chat about football and make that your job?

[185] And I was like, well, I don't know anyone in that.

[186] And she goes, well, why can't you just make your own stuff and show people that you can do it?

[187] Like, honestly, like, that's not what I'm saying.

[188] But these conversations are real conversations that she had with me. She was literally saying, well, you just have to show people that you can do that.

[189] I was like, well, I can't just walk into SkySport.

[190] She was like, why not?

[191] My mom really kind of, again, my dad, my dad is too nice.

[192] He's too good of a cheerleader.

[193] Anything I want to, if I said, if I said, you know, when I was working at the gym or anything like that, if I said, oh, I had to clean this treadmill today.

[194] And I see.

[195] He goes, yeah, but I saw it.

[196] And it was so good.

[197] It was so good.

[198] But that's what I mean.

[199] You know, the best parents, I couldn't have lucked out more.

[200] You know, if, if we are living in a Matrix world where you select your pod of who your parents are.

[201] I have done so well.

[202] But yeah, my mom was the person that was really like, you know, what is it you love?

[203] And I said that.

[204] And she was like, you know, create your job, you know, make it.

[205] And I did.

[206] And, you know, my mom's very spiritual in terms of manifesting.

[207] And I'm more a coincidence person.

[208] But, yeah, I think my mom always, my mom always says this one thing to me, which I will have forever and I will always teach to my kids.

[209] And I think, you know, going back to what you were saying about, that pressure of having parents that do what I do, you know, and we're all part of the same world.

[210] Having famous parents, the one word that people will constantly say to you is that you're lucky, constant.

[211] Yeah.

[212] It will constantly say to you, yeah, but you are lucky because you've got this or you got lucky because your parents have this.

[213] And I always say to my mom, I was like, I've just done this really cool thing.

[214] And all people say to me is, oh, yeah, but you got lucky.

[215] It's like, so my mom used to say to me, she was like, she was like, yeah, but break that down and, you know, break down what luck actually is.

[216] And she was the first person to say that phrase to me where she said, you know, luck is when preparation meets opportunity.

[217] And it's so right, you know, I prepared myself in terms of, I went out and I did the mileage.

[218] I did all the rubbish jobs.

[219] I learnt about football, you know, all those types of things.

[220] I spent those hours, you know, wanting to be the best I could be at it.

[221] And then it just so happened that an opportunity in life arose where I could show that skill set.

[222] And from now on, that's all I ever look at luck ass, you know.

[223] And so when people say that I was lucky on something, I was like, yeah.

[224] But I prepared to be in that situation.

[225] And it was fake that the opportunity was there.

[226] 100%.

[227] I mean, I even get that now.

[228] People will say to me that I got lucky.

[229] And I was like one particular example, which was when I, I, when I was 18, broke kid up in Manchester and Mossite.

[230] See, Manchester.

[231] Yeah, yeah.

[232] Of in Manchester.

[233] And I was living in Mossite.

[234] And I sent an email at 3am in the morning to the first person that came up on LinkedIn asking if they'd invest in my business.

[235] And I was asking them for five grand.

[236] They replied within a couple of hours and said they would if I, if I assembled a team.

[237] And I was super lucky.

[238] The first person I emailed gave me five grand.

[239] I was up at 3 a .m. in the fucking morning.

[240] I show the email on stage where I remove the times, the little thing blocking the timestamp.

[241] And I go, you can call it luck, but I know where you were at 3am on that Saturday morning.

[242] And so again.

[243] But you created that opportunity.

[244] And that's what I'm saying.

[245] Like that opportunity just was there.

[246] And you had to have all the back knowledge to be able to do to provide it.

[247] If you just went to someone and said, oh, I want that.

[248] And then they were like, well, what have you got to show for it?

[249] And you had nothing.

[250] It wouldn't have done it.

[251] And another example that I actually learned actually from someone, someone was interviewing me the other day, if I got a dice and I rolled it a thousand times, eventually I'm going to get like a coin, let's say, eventually I'm going to get heads 10 times in a row just because I flip it a thousand times.

[252] If I flip it a hundred times, it might not happen.

[253] But again, it's like increasing the opportunity because of the amount of just flips.

[254] If I had prepared in my life to do a different type of job, I'm sure there are so many opportunities that I've missed in this life that I'm living that would have been better for a different.

[255] That's basically how there's constant opportunities, especially when, you know, that's why we're so fortunate to live in a place like, you know, we live in London, like, well, I live in London, like, you know, I mean, I'm so fortunate to be able to be here and, and, you know, not be in some, you know, shit part town.

[256] That's why it always, that's why, to be honest, that's why I always love, you know, I really like, I really like, you know, the kind of grime scene and the, the, the, the rap scene in, in the UK and all that type of stuff, because these kids have come up from shit.

[257] like bad areas with no so low opportunities and they've made time of it you know which is great so when did when did you get the call from capital and how do that happen so i had i had a call from them that was like um yeah can you come and do um this was whilst i was doing i must have been doing football daily stuff i was doing stuff for like four music like just little hosting bits online and then someone called me and they said um oh you come and uh do a demo like come in and just do like a quick let's hear how your voice sounds so i was like yeah yeah come in did that thought nothing of it didn't really hear back then a few weeks later will you do some outside broadcasting bits where i remember i had to go to wimbledon and chat to people just in the queue rubbish stuff like all air miles you know all stuff that to this day i still know exactly what they taught me in my first demo.

[258] And after that, it kind of went to a point where I, they offered me a show that was like, they were like, yeah, you can do like bit, bit roll show.

[259] So like one a .m. to four a .m. on a weekend every two weekends.

[260] Do you know what I mean?

[261] And you're like, and, and, you know, a lot of people are like, you know, all my mates again were like, well, graveyard shift.

[262] I was like, yeah.

[263] But I'm almost.

[264] I'm going to.

[265] Well, to be honest, I, yeah, well, that one that it was so great because it because it was in the middle of the night i could make any mistake i wanted no boss is listening so no one cares right i could learn i learned you know all the buttons and all those types things i don't know now like i know radio presenters now that are like what do you do the buttons yeah yeah it's more fun like you know what i mean so it's it's it was again it was that moment where i had to learn and i knew that and i wanted to learn the craft as much as possible and with radio I kind of just accidentally fell in love with it if you had told me 10 years ago that I was hosting radio and that would be my job and that's what people would know me for I honestly would not even know where that would have even started crazy that which is odd and it's hard because I get you get a lot of radio is a very you know as I say it's a clicky place because a lot of people went to student radio and like you know what I mean like those types of things and I didn't take that natural path.

[266] To be totally honest with you, I said to myself, I was like, right, I'm on capital now.

[267] This is when I was 22.

[268] Yeah, when I was 20, well, 20, yeah, 21, 22.

[269] And I said to myself, I was like, right, I'm doing 1 a .m. to 4 a .m. every couple of weekends now within, well, in 10 years, I want to be doing the breakfast show.

[270] And I did it in three, two and a half three.

[271] and like that for me is still like the best you know achievement that I can name for myself why do you think why do you think you did so well in radio because I kept pushing and I kept I kept like I always like I speak to you know younger radio presenters now or even presenters that are there and I always say what show are you doing all this type of stuff and then they'll be worried to say what I now say to them what show do you want to do and they won't want to say it because there's someone else there.

[272] But it's like, well, if you don't, do you know what I mean?

[273] Like I was there every single day.

[274] I know every other week I was knocking on the, the boss's door saying, I'm better than that person.

[275] I can make it better.

[276] I can do this better.

[277] I can this better.

[278] You got to do it.

[279] No one's no one, no one owes you something.

[280] Do you know what I mean?

[281] No one owes you that opportunity to have a better show or a better TV show or whatever.

[282] You know, if I go to a commissioner at a TV channel, I sure as hell have to go in there with a better idea than what they've currently got otherwise what's the point to be in there or sit there and go oh can you please give me a show no like I've got to prove that I've got a show why and that's all I did on on capital it was literally like I remember they gave me they said to me there was like there wasn't any show slots going and I was like what have you got and they were like Saturday 5 till 8 which was a horrendous horrendous show slot because 5 p .m. to 8 p .m., which is, like, everyone knows that is dog territory.

[283] How come?

[284] Like, just because it's just low ratings.

[285] Right.

[286] People are getting ready to go out, do you know what I mean, on a Saturday night.

[287] No one's really listening to the radio, those types of things.

[288] It's not quite 8pm where you're going to get him, doing pre -drinks and those types of things.

[289] So it's just low ratings, statistically.

[290] And I was like, I don't care give me the show.

[291] I was like, I was like, giving me the show.

[292] And then we took that and me and, and Joe, my producer, we turned, we gave it the highest the highest ratings within that slot that there's ever been for one and it did some record in terms of weekend numbers ever on Capital Why?

[293] Because we changed it before Capital was always constant happy, happy, happy as quickly as you can in between the song say as little as possible move on, move on, move on, move on, move on.

[294] I wanted to create a show where I was like, no, that's not what, if Saturday at 5 o 'clock is quite a dead period for kids that were my age at that time, which were like 20, 23, and I was like, a lot of my mates are these YouTubers and these types of things.

[295] Well, I know, get some of them on.

[296] We'll just play some games.

[297] We'll have more fun with it.

[298] And we just kind of created this a vibe, you know, instead of just going the classic route of what they wanted to do.

[299] And because it was a rubbish lot, they just kind of said to me, try it out.

[300] And we tried it.

[301] And we tried it.

[302] And, and, and, did it you know but it's just having that belief and just being like bang on the door and be like look if it works it works if it doesn't it doesn't take it off me so I'm pleased that we did that and that kind of led to me then going into like an evening show slot you went on to do a documentary which I I watched which was incredibly moving for a number of reasons yeah personally I've got a one of my maybe my best friend and my business partner for the first seven or eight years was was depressed as we were running the business and I had no idea so I only actually found out in hindsight and he said to me when he came on this podcast actually afterwards after he had a problem with alcohol and I'd caught him in the laundry room we lived together at like 3am in the morning drinking alcohol because at the time I didn't understand what mental health disorders were so I just thought he's got he's a piss head you know what I mean but obviously that's I've come to learn that that's a symptom of something And then it all came to a head one day where he got really drunk and started exposing himself in front of employees.

[303] And so a long story.

[304] But then we had a chat.

[305] And it was the first time we had a chat about what was going on without like anger or assumption.

[306] And then he opened up to me and we cried on some Sunday in the office and he started his journey to get to seeing a therapist, etc. Your documentary was just, it was just exceptional for so many reasons.

[307] can you can you take me through yeah because i because i know that you're working alongside your best friend joe at the radio um yeah can you take me through i guess the first question is um did you know anything was at all no troubling joe no i i've known joe for since i started six years six years straight being with that person every single day almost like a boyfriend.

[308] Like that's that's like like we work together every day.

[309] We go out, you know, all the time like after shows, all those types of stuff.

[310] Weekends go out.

[311] If I had lined up, maybe, I'd go over 10, 20.

[312] If I had 30 mates, I'd say 30 mates.

[313] Um, I would probably put him last as to who I would suspect would ever do anything like that.

[314] I mean, to put it, to put it into context, obviously, in a documentary you were talking about obviously being, you know, about male suicide and male depression it was even this world that i'm in now i really do not wish i was part of this world like in terms of like i wish i didn't have people talking to me about suicide but this is where we are you know it's our life goes that's that's it um but when it came to to joe my my producer yeah he you know he was the first person when i went to wimbledon that he was the first person i met when i when i did my demo for the first time he was that person that was there with me this is someone that taught me everything i know in terms of my professional being now on in terms of radio he taught me everything uh and sat next to me literally two foot away from me every day on every single show you know laugh together as i say go out together all those types of things but i think joe took his own life in august last year um and that for me was a moment where i i kind of I had dealt with my own kind of suicidal thoughts and my own kind of depression.

[315] And Joe is very much aware of that, which is why it was so strange to me and why I felt like I had this piece of paper in front of me that said everything you know about or you think you know about someone that is suicidal, in quotes, is wrong because it doesn't have any form of symptom.

[316] Because that's why each suicide is different to the next.

[317] and you can't you can't nullify it you can't be like oh if someone it's you'll know someone suicidal because they'll look like this this this this this this you'll never find those answers which is a scary thought but it's also you know like what like what you said there like you didn't know that mental health disorder thing that puts you in a higher risk category than it puts me the majority of men that take their own life have no idea that mental health disorders even are a thing, most of them think that people are just kind of lying or people are just attention seeking when they say they have depression.

[318] That's over 70 % of men that take their own life are in that situation.

[319] They see it as a means to an end.

[320] They don't like what's going on in their life.

[321] How do I make it stop?

[322] Take your own life.

[323] It's so strange.

[324] So yeah, so sorry, in a long -winded way, I would never have thought that Joe would have been that person that at all, no. That really does make you think about all your friends, right?

[325] 100%.

[326] But that's why, but that's why like, you know, and look, when I, when it came to making the documentary, Joe died in August, I started making that doc in November.

[327] Two months, right?

[328] Because, one, all I know how to do is through creative stuff.

[329] I don't, I can, my writing's like you know what I mean I write something down I'm not going to lobby government because I don't know how to do that you know all those types of things I just know how to make something and I knew also selfishly I knew that if I do a doc I'm going to be able to meet people that have tried to take their own life I'm going to be able to meet psychiatrists I'm going to be able to meet professors and learn the science because I was so convinced in my head I was like I need to know all the things that I need to be looking out for for my other friends yeah basically that documentary became my own therapy and and people watched it and i think that's why you know i realized after that shit like it is one it's everywhere and two there is no there's no way of telling so therefore the only people that can help those people are their friends and that's what the documentary is it's not a documentary about suicide it's a documentary about friendship and how we now have to take ownership of our mates.

[330] What did that journey of creating that documentary and your own experiences teach you about, and this is one of the things that's really fascinated me for a long time, it's like we're seeing this apparent increase in mental health disorders.

[331] And I say apparent because sometimes it's hard to distinguish whether it's because of the increase in awareness that we have more people put in the hand up and say, listen, I'm suffering.

[332] Or it's because of the world has changed social media, whatever you want to call it.

[333] And people are, we're living in a less healthy way.

[334] But so, we're seeing this, the data shows that there's a pretty significant increase in mental health disorders, things like treatment resistant depression.

[335] I'm actually a creative director, one of the big investors in a tie, which is one of the, maybe the biggest mental health psychedelics business in the world.

[336] So I do a lot of, I spend a lot of time looking at clinical studies and obviously psychedelics is it comes at depression more from a place of like what's happened to you versus what's wrong with you.

[337] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[338] You're talking about like ayahuasca and stuff like that.

[339] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[340] It's more sort of like trauma -centric approach to looking at first.

[341] What have you learned about what's causing the increase in mental health disorders from your journey?

[342] Um, it's, it's tough.

[343] I mean, I can only speak from a male perspective, um, obviously.

[344] Um, and I only ever have done because I, it's so easy.

[345] And the thing, the thing that the most, the thing that I saw the most was, oh, um, everyone's saying to me, well, it's social media, isn't it?

[346] There's social media.

[347] The fact is not.

[348] Like, like, like, social media is there, yes, and it can create a trigger or anything like that for someone that may be feeling down.

[349] I don't think it's the sole purpose.

[350] I can also be madly inspired by social media.

[351] I can also be made to feel really, really happy by social media.

[352] I think the main problem with men is purely down to, is almost toxic masculinity.

[353] It's our own kind of fault, you know, the pressures that we put on ourselves to be, you know, the person that we want to be, to have the body that we want, to have the things that we want and to have the job, the family, you know, even the pressure that I put on myself, to have the family that I should have.

[354] You know, I'm worried that if I come to like the age of 50 and I don't have that, how am I going to feel?

[355] You know, and it's all about creating tools, you know, in our brain for kids as young as five, and you know throughout primary school to learn how to deal with these issues throughout time like people have had depression it's just how our brains are worked you know what I mean that's how our brains and why there's always been depression yeah you know you've got a right point in terms of like the data I'll obviously show that there's more because there are more cases don't get me wrong like throughout the pandemic obviously is I always like I don't go too much into the government stuff but I think it's so like grotesque to even trap people in their homes in the way that obviously they did do and not think about the mental health side of things because they haven't.

[356] They're completely ignored it.

[357] Like the government completely ignored how much of a problem mental health will be during the pandemic, people being on their own, not being able to go about their lives.

[358] And also the trauma that's going to have later on in life for kids.

[359] You know, I learned a stat the other day that is horrendous, right?

[360] And this is something think that, you know, when I was asked, will I go out and make another documentary?

[361] And I think for this stat, I want to, because I can't quite believe it, any business or any school has to sign a health and safety declaration, right?

[362] And that's how it is.

[363] They all have to sign a piece of paper that says, if you hurt yourself here, we'll sign that.

[364] A hundred percent of schools up and down the country, sign that.

[365] There is also a declaration of mental health, right, where a school has to look after a kid, if the traumatic event happens within school, they have to make sure that, you know, their mental health has looked after.

[366] In the UK, two percent of schools have signed that.

[367] So you're saying that 98 % of schools up and down the UK, look at mental health and go, nothing to do with us.

[368] School is the most traumatic time in anyone's life.

[369] If parents knew that, if parents knew the schools don't care about your kids' mental health, then that, that, that is what is you know that's what's putting us in a situation now where men are killing themselves because we don't know we've never been taught how to deal with it no one's ever looked after us teaching us how to deal with it you talk about toxic masculinity there one of the things that's always associated with that is just men's lack of willingness to like make a phone call yeah to a friend and say listen i am not okay and you know you you also have been very open about the day where you were feeling like that and your superwoman mother yeah once again um yeah she called you coincidentally or yeah yeah yeah coincidentally well it was kind of like yeah I went to call her and then like shit like I texted her a couple of times and then she just called me because you're feeling bad so you text her yeah I mean people are tell you this but when you're in that zone you know if you're in a absolute spiral everything goes into a right blur all I know is that I was in my house and I was in my pants and I was I could not stop crying and I couldn't stopped worrying about everything and my head was going like a whirlwind like I was worrying about stuff that wasn't even logical like what was your brain telling you i can't even like i can't even describe it like it's like the only way it feels like anything in my head that could have been a problem was a problem have you ever had like you know when you're you're hungover and that or like the next day i don't know if you drink but the next day right if you have a hangover you have paranoia thing like throughout like stuff just makes you feel a little bit edgy whispery like yeah yeah it's like that but a million times the only way also that i talk about it is like it's like paranoia and it's like mike your brain becomes mike tyson and is just beating you up and you've not had one boxing lesson in your life so you're just kind of like you can't do anything you're just taking it right and it's like you're things like you look bad you've not done this your tax bills this you're this you're this you're this you're this are you ever going to do this you're never going to do this loads of like voices and at that point i just said to myself you know i can't i don't know what to do and the only thing i can think about was i was okay well i'll just i'll just you know take my own life i'll just kill myself that's that's how honestly how i felt because i was like that's the only way to stop this and then as as you said my mom called me and uh she kept me on the phone for about an hour because i was at the house and i'd like in my head head, I was like, oh, I'll just go to the train station and just, you know, do like, you know, jump in front of a train.

[370] That's honestly what went through my head.

[371] And then it's like, at that point, I was like, okay, fine.

[372] And then I'm speaking to my mom and my mom got there within an hour and we just kind of, do you know what?

[373] I don't even remember her.

[374] I don't even remember her getting there.

[375] It's a very strange place to be.

[376] It's a, it's an actual, you know, break, they call it a mental breakdown for a reason because I can't, your whole mind just blanks.

[377] and that's the same thing that I've spoken to a lot of people that have attempted to take their own life and they all say the same thing those moments that you have are completely like just so intense that your mind goes implodes and and you don't even know and that's why a lot of men will will tell you that when they you know if they take it to that step which is a huge step to to decide okay I'm going to take my own life a lot of men go that was my happy moment because I felt like in that time I was in control of my life, which is a really scary thought and a really sad thought, that they feel like the biggest amount of clarity that they've ever had in their life in the moment where they felt at peace was when they felt like, okay, I'm going to do this and everything will stop.

[378] But the problem is, is that that's not the answer.

[379] And it's really not.

[380] And when I speak to, you know, in the documentary I speak to Joe's mom, give you mind this is three months after her son has passed away.

[381] And she's had to told that her son who she's raised has taken his own life.

[382] She sums it up in such an amazing way, which is kind of touching on a very dangerous topic of selfishness around suicide, which a lot of people don't want to talk about, but it's the truth, which is suicide isn't necessarily a selfish act by that person.

[383] But the problem is, is that no matter what pain that person is feeling in that moment, no matter what pain you're going through in your head, or sadness, you do not get rid of that by taking your own life.

[384] All you are doing is you are transferring it to everyone around you.

[385] And you are transferring that.

[386] On average, 180 people get, um, affected by one singular suicide.

[387] And, and that is what you are doing.

[388] And it's just a fact.

[389] You know, like for two months, I absolutely hated Joe.

[390] I hated him.

[391] After he died, I felt quite cold because I was just like, I could you do that?

[392] I felt like, I could you leave me, your mom, your dad, your sister?

[393] I could you do that?

[394] I could you let someone find you?

[395] Like, do you know what I mean?

[396] So it's, it's, it's in that that you realize that no matter how much that clarity is there and you feel like you're escaping a problem, you are passing that onto someone else.

[397] And that's what's left behind you.

[398] And I know for a fact that I know, like, I would put so much money on that if he was here right now, he'd look at me and say, sorry, mate, made a mistake.

[399] 100%.

[400] So much, so much I was thinking about there.

[401] So the first thing is my business partner also said to me, he was considering jumping in front of a train.

[402] That's what he said to me in our private conversations.

[403] The other thing is just this, this, it's really, it's really hard for someone who's not been through what you're describing there, what you went through, and evidently what Joe went through, to understand the, that place if you've not been there.

[404] This is why it's so valuable.

[405] And like I was thinking, you know, must, as you kind of alluded to there, you didn't choose for everybody to ask you in every interview about this topic.

[406] But the immense value that it's like it's doing on someone like me who's been fortunate enough not to be in that place who can now, from your description there, that Mike Tyson description, can now understand that how that must feel.

[407] Yeah.

[408] But I can't.

[409] But I can almost...

[410] But the thing is, the thing is, is what's better is because you are in a higher risk category than me. Yeah, I know, which is fucking terrifying.

[411] Yeah.

[412] Because, but now that I've spoken to you about it, and that you're not.

[413] Yeah.

[414] Because, because that's the problem is that, you know, all of the guys that I spoke to said to me, they were like, didn't think mental health of those thing was a thing.

[415] Didn't think what I was going through was depression, thought I was just rubbish and just thought I, you know, I wasn't where I wanted to be in life, just wanted that to end.

[416] That's the realization of it.

[417] You know, and again, it's that thing of, you know, it's a, it's a topic that no one really wants to talk about.

[418] And is also why I was so adamant that the worst, okay, this is the worst thing, right, is if you're in that state, your mates in that state, right?

[419] The last thing he wants to do is talk to you about that.

[420] so why is the kind of push always oh if you're feeling depressed you should talk no that's the last thing i want to do if anything you're going to make me revert more right you're going to go back more the the pressure should be placed on us as friends to to make that call and to make that conversation happen with anyone that you would ever suspect even if you don't suspect it make sure how sure are you?

[421] How sure are you of the people in your phone book or your close friends that they're not thinking these thoughts?

[422] Not sure enough.

[423] But that's what I mean.

[424] So all you have to do is have that conversation.

[425] But that will take you having that conversation.

[426] I always say I do a lot of talks for businesses about mental health.

[427] And I always leave it with, you know, go away today, choose three people in your phone book that you speak to regularly.

[428] And ask them, ask them, are they okay, but do it twice?

[429] you know and that's something that i learned from a group of lads who had lost their mate they they now look after each other by asking at the beginning of the conversation are you okay have the conversation and then just go back to it and be like so tell me are you okay choose three people do that too okay rule on them and tell me that you haven't found something new from at least one of those people it's fact like like it's so messed up for us as a society you know especially especially living in living in london like you know which is just the horrific but amazing place you know it's this beautiful you know cultural places it's my home it's is everything but it is also a treadmill and you've got to get on it and if you're not on it you're not even in the picture and that means that conversation switches to what do you do how can I profit off that and the most important thing in a conversation should always be are you okay when you say to your mates hey how is you you go yeah I'm good glaze over it like that why is that not the most important thing that you ask someone and it should be it should always be and and that's why for guys we forget that so you have to go oh shit okay well I'll ask it again you know and and that is you know be I want people to to be the the hero to their friends that I know I wasn't to mine because I know I wasn't and no matter how many people say to me he did what he did because of you know that was his prerogative and that stuff.

[430] Yeah, for sure.

[431] But the fact is that if someone had had this conversation with me, I probably would have brought out with him.

[432] And I would have, I know if I, if I had got to the crux of it, if I had been, if I had asked Joe, those questions.

[433] If I had said to him, are you okay?

[434] If I'd done that twice, if I'd spoken to him, seen how he is, I don't think I'd be here.

[435] I don't think I'd be having this conversation.

[436] And I'd want other people to understand that.

[437] It's up to us as friends.

[438] But you spoke to Joe about your, Yeah, but me. And did he ever, did he not ever reciprocate and say, well, I've also been, no, no. But that's, that's, that's his, that's his thing.

[439] What was he like as a guy in terms of being?

[440] Was he, was he, a, a guy that talked about deep topics?

[441] Like, you've got your friends.

[442] Oh, yeah, yeah, was he talked about deep.

[443] Joe, so, listen, Joe is someone, it's ridiculous, like, I would still find it now, ridiculous, even talking about him, because it's like, if, if he had known that I was out here talking about people about him it's odd it's odd to be able to be speaking about one of your friends and like i don't know it's odd but he he's someone that was the most outgoing funny creative guy he always he teetered on genius and idiot constantly um he would have the most ridiculous ideas and at 99 of them you know out of 100 of them 99 would be ridiculous and one would be incredible and that one incredible thing is the thing that we'd always champion and push forward but he's someone that yeah like I say like every single one of my friend group I've never known a more smiley person I've never known someone more happy go lucky more just happy to be there and that's why I say if that can happen to him best believe it can happen to anyone else did anybody ever find out what got him to that place or any any did he not leave him no that again this is another thing is Hollywood believe would make us believe that people leave notes yeah they're not over 90 % don't and never know and and that's why it's just there's a horrible horrible harsh thing and it's it's so final that's the that's the problem is it's so final also another thing is you know girls can't be taken out of this conversation as well because when I I worked with the Nottinghamshire street triage team who are an incredible team of people that are police and mental health expert that go out on calls together so it'd be a mental health nurse right with with a police officer and they will respond to a mental health crisis right so someone trying to take their own life et cetera and I said to them I was like oh you know I went there and like in the mode of I'm like, oh, yeah, so it must all be guys that you speak to.

[444] And they were like, no, actually, it's around 90 % of our calls are women having mental struggles or trying to take their own life.

[445] And then you look at the data and you're like, well, how does that make sense?

[446] But the problem is, is that us as men being men, we choose more final methods in terms of how to end that pain.

[447] And that's the unfortunate reality of it.

[448] You made that documentary.

[449] It was, I mean, it was everywhere.

[450] and everybody was talking about it really, really far reaching.

[451] In fact, I know that the amount of people calling suicide and sort of mental health support lines shot up drastically.

[452] It's like 700 % or something crazy like that, 720 -odd percent.

[453] But with that, you then carry this, I guess, this like social...

[454] You become the ambassador for something, right?

[455] I do not want to be the ambassador for it, but that's how life is now.

[456] And the only reason why I'll go out there and do it is because of Joe's family, genuinely.

[457] Like, it's not easy, right?

[458] Talking about that.

[459] No, it's not.

[460] Like, I'll give you examples.

[461] You know, I'll go to parties now and, like, the main thing that, like, lads will come up to me and talk to me about is how they feel, which is nice in a way.

[462] But it's a lot.

[463] It's a lot.

[464] Yeah.

[465] I won't lie there.

[466] It's a lot.

[467] It's a lot.

[468] Like, there are days where I don't, want to talk about i have people like again like i'll be out for dinner or something like that and someone to come up to himself oh my god that documentary blah blah blah blah i wasn't thinking about my mate taking his own life but now i'm thinking about it do you know what i mean but that is life like that that's always how it is and and the only way that i can kind of get around that is by you know you can tell them by the way that i talk about it i'm still passionate about it you know because i've been scarred by it i've got such trauma attached to suicide and mental health and that's a trauma I'll always have you know that when you when you look for things you know one of the questions I've asked you know other people you know that have been through what I've been through I said to them when does it get better and and their replies it doesn't you just learn to deal with it a little bit better do you know what I mean like it you just learn a different technique to stop thinking about it and you know that will be with me forever I'll tell my kids about Joe you know I'll be bang on top of my kids is mental health you know what's going on with him but again i just think it's throughout all of this you know as you say being apart and having these conversations now is is crazy and weird do you still feel a bit of anger sometimes towards joe for doing that um yeah every night again every now again that's normal yeah you know it's normal every now and again I'll be like every now and again it's more so like me and my mates will have a story and we'll laugh and then at the end of it all going like like mate come on like because I know like I know that if he was there what he'd say to me yeah I can hear it clear as day he'd say oh sorry me many mistake and that that's what's so sad and it's like I know that whatever is that he was going through it ain't worth and it never is worth no matter what anyone's going through is that this this this is not an option not an option i've i'm mistaken by because i can't remember her name so please forgive me if she ever hears this or friends of her ever hear this um there was a mum that that recently um got the wording changed around um the phrase commit suicide so now that that is not a phrase that that should necessarily be said so it's always you would refer to it as take take your own life because to commit suicide is actually an illegal act and therefore a lot of young a lot of parents were left with a child who if they had written it down that they'd done that that they would go down essentially as a criminal a criminal because you're committing an illegal act so that phrasing is gone now which is quite nice is a nice thing but you know suicide is still such a weird thing that people don't want to talk about but yet is the biggest thing you think how much I think how many cancer adverts, thinking of any testicular cancer efforts you see on a daily basis.

[469] Now, put that together with how many male suicide adverts do you see?

[470] You don't.

[471] It's the biggest killer for our age.

[472] How have you found being in a public spotlight?

[473] You talked a little bit about there about people coming up to you at dinners and parties and stuff.

[474] Yeah, yeah.

[475] Like when you're in the spotlight anyway, people come up to you and just say, oh, I love your thing.

[476] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[477] But now they're coming up and say, how have you found all of that?

[478] In terms of the dock?

[479] The dock.

[480] Or just more.

[481] Generally, I mean, in general, mate, like, to be totally honest, I don't know any different.

[482] Yeah.

[483] Genuinely, because I, like, for me, it was, it's like, in the same way that I could say to you, how is it in that bit, how is it hit in puberty?

[484] It's like, you'd seen people above you go through that, so you kind of knew what to expect.

[485] Oh, okay.

[486] And you kind of dealt with it.

[487] Do you know what I mean?

[488] Whereas, like, for me, because I was, people coming up to me now saying, oh, can I get a picture?

[489] and if I'm with a mate I have to say to the mate or can you hold the phone and you know take the picture I was that person holding the phone half my life you know so it just it's always been always been there any time I was a kid any anytime I was a kid walking into a pub going to a football match walking into a restaurant anywhere I clock people looking at my dad or my mom did you understand that they were like famous yeah me loved it yeah loved it loved it Like, put it this way.

[490] My sister was always, my sister was always really shy.

[491] My sister was always really shy of it.

[492] And my dad always tells his story where he said it was show and tell at school.

[493] And I must have been about six.

[494] My dad was in EastEnders.

[495] He'd just joined EastEnders.

[496] And his character name was Steve Owen in EastEnders, right?

[497] And it was a big thing that he was in there.

[498] And the fireman.

[499] came to school, like to show the fire truck and to, you know, show how this is our equipment and what type of stuff.

[500] And they said, any questions?

[501] And my dad and my mom said, I put my hand up and said, you may think that's cool, but my dad's Steve Owen.

[502] So I've always, I've always been insanely proud of my parents, you know, like, and, you know, I credit them for, you know, my dad has always been very patient with everyone and in terms of like people wanting pictures or stuff like that.

[503] He always does it.

[504] Yeah, he always does it.

[505] But he taught me something else, which, you know, we had a little bit of a chat about this before, but he's never let me take pictures with people, ever.

[506] And I don't do that.

[507] And I always get, I get told off about it because people are like, oh, if you're hanging out with this person, you just take a picture.

[508] Oh, so if you, yeah, so if you want to take a photo with like Justin Bieber, then he's not going to do it.

[509] Yeah, even footballers.

[510] Right.

[511] Like, when I was a kid, all I wanted was like, you know, take picture.

[512] If I met a footballer, I'd want to take a picture.

[513] He was like, nah, enjoy that moment with you and that person.

[514] A picture is nothing.

[515] You know, it's gratification for someone else to see it.

[516] He goes, you should enjoy that moment, live it with your eyes and speak to them.

[517] And if you really want to, you know, make a moment in that person's life, go up to them and say, you know, you know what, I really like your work.

[518] I really appreciate what you've done.

[519] I really like this.

[520] That goes so much further than, you know, if someone came up to me and said, I just want to let you know that I really like what you did, that means so much more than anyone.

[521] one just running up to you and going, get a picture, take a picture, run off.

[522] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[523] It's like, do you know what I mean?

[524] Yeah, yeah.

[525] You know what I mean?

[526] You must go through the same thing.

[527] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[528] You know, if someone came up to and said, mate, I really love your podcast.

[529] I really love, you know, everything you've done, the business, the businesses that you've created.

[530] Yeah, yeah.

[531] It means so much more.

[532] Yeah, yeah.

[533] So I'm always pleased about that.

[534] So, yeah, so fame in terms of, for me, has always kind of been, there's pros and cons to, to our jobs now.

[535] Fame is a con. Is a, is a bad part.

[536] it.

[537] The good part is that we get to do fun stuff.

[538] Interesting.

[539] The good part is you get to speak to interesting people.

[540] Yeah, yeah.

[541] Sat here.

[542] The con is that when you're out for dinner, someone may have watched that conversation and want to interrupt you.

[543] Yeah.

[544] And talk to you about it.

[545] Yeah.

[546] I went to the United Away game the other day.

[547] And I always get it in certain places.

[548] So like, whenever there's a younger demographic, Dragons is going to change that.

[549] I was talking to my team this week.

[550] Yeah.

[551] Like BBC ones are a slightly more parenty audience.

[552] It will really change that.

[553] You'll see that.

[554] So when I'm in my old Trafford, in the like gallery area, which is all predominantly a little bit older people, no one bothers me. If I go to an away day, honestly last week, someone had their arm around me the whole game.

[555] I love your, showing me on his phone, look, I love your pocket, look.

[556] And I'm trying, he's going to watch the game.

[557] Come on, he's at.

[558] And you know, and you think, yeah, yeah.

[559] I'm wearing a fucking hoodie and like, you know, but.

[560] Yeah, but that's why COVID was a good thing in that says.

[561] Well, yeah, it was a really good thing.

[562] No, It's actually a conversation I started having and you've, you've experienced this much more than I have, which is just, I, will there become a point where I become more of an introvert and don't want to go to places because of the amount of people that are like, it's exhausting, right?

[563] And I don't want to be, I'll never be an asshole.

[564] I know that for sure.

[565] It's tiring.

[566] It's tiring, right?

[567] It's tiring.

[568] For sure, but naturally that will happen because your life changes.

[569] Like, you're going to be on a TV show that is watched by millions of people.

[570] Like, like, this is, that's, you know, it's what my dad, what my dad always says, you know, and that's, you know, that's why he always says to me, you can't, you know, people that get angry at fans or whatever and, like, you know, or rude to people, you can't put your head above the parapet and not expect to get hit.

[571] Yeah.

[572] Do you know what I mean?

[573] Like, how can you do that?

[574] Like, you're choosing to, to go on a show that is watched by millions of people.

[575] Yeah.

[576] So therefore, if you go out, you need to be more careful.

[577] You need to, you know, like, you know, understand that, that people are going to want certain.

[578] and things and that's fine but that's just that's just the world you've you've met a lot of very famous super mega stars and you've partied with a lot of them and been very close to a lot of them I'm reading some of the stories about Justin Bieber when you look at some of these people yeah that have been wildly successful yeah what what have you noticed about like their happiness and like the ones that are happy the ones that you think oh god I'm concerned for this one what is the what's your general observation are these really happy people Honestly.

[579] I think it's, it's all about, it's all about the values.

[580] It's always about what are they doing it for, you know, and, and the family life.

[581] You know, there's, there's people that, what I always find so interesting is, is I think one of the reasons why I'm able to, again, do the job that I do and speak to those people who are on such high pedestals is because you got to remember that I've grown up with a, with a godfather who is, you know, was, and still to this day, most famous singers ever in George Michael.

[582] And growing up with George, I saw very quickly that the more famous you get, it does not become more fun.

[583] It doesn't.

[584] You don't know who's your friends.

[585] You don't know those types of things.

[586] And I think that that can lead people to be into a bit of a troubled situation.

[587] You know, you get approached by, so you don't have a good core friend group, like a big core friend group that could lead to everyone around you being yes men that just want to be on the payroll that will do something because they think that it will help in their career and those types of things I'm uber fortunate I've got a really nice friend group and the artist that I know you know I was speaking from a music background the artist that I know that have those incredible friend groups are just amazing people like Ed's Sharon yeah Ed is incredible like but Ed's values are so correct you know and His parents are lovely people as well in terms of, you know, the pleasure of, you know, having dinner with his dad and stuff like that.

[588] And they're just people that understand that this is just fun.

[589] The creativeness is just the fun.

[590] You know, all the fame and those types of things are just a side note.

[591] You know, Ed does everything he does now, I'm sure, because he's so family -orientated.

[592] And that's so important.

[593] You know, he's married to Cherry, who's his childhood sweetheart.

[594] You know, I'll give me another example.

[595] It's like, Noel Horan's one of my good mates.

[596] Nile's friend group is all his friend group from young.

[597] School, isn't it?

[598] Young.

[599] And they will kill him, like, in, like, conversations or like, do you know what I mean?

[600] His cousins will rip him to shreds and all those types of things.

[601] And all it does is just ground him constantly.

[602] And it's that grounding nature that if you don't have that within this world or that world, you're going to struggle.

[603] Justin for instance was someone that was taken at like nine he didn't have a chance to build a proper friend group didn't even have a chance and so you worry for people like that because you know that's why you know he's now found faith and that's his thing and that is his grounding moment in his life and his wife of course she's a exactly she seems to be a good echo that's what I mean so it's you know for him he has those things for me it is those cool group of cool group of mates and you must meet a couple that you're a bit concerned about in terms of always because i've met a couple of you know famous people and i thought fucking oh they're not happy no you know i understand could you feel it when you meet them with their energy and they all the time instantly uh there's there's there's few people that that you know i don't even know that well and i've ended up having to reach out to because i feel like i probably should and it's sad it's really sad like sometimes it can be a sad existence money can make you feel amazing 100 % it can buy happiness but that happiness can run out like that's the thing as quickly as your bank balance can run out that happiness can run out like and people struggle like people really really struggle and it's and this is again this is another thing what what i learned with making doc about suicide and talking about you know mental health was the first thing i saw when um when people uh heard it like press release came out saying that i was doing a documentary about suicide or twitter was like what what does a celebrity kid know about struggling and blah blah blah mental health and these types of things but the thing is is that it's all you know those struggles that you see artists going through or you know addiction problems or those types of things it's all just it's only relevant to what their life is you know those problems the problem that someone in a lower class system has in their head will be just as high as someone in a upper class system because it's just relevant to the circumstance and it's big in their head and that's what people have to understand is that no matter what the problem is you know people say oh it's an upper class problem or whatever like they like first world problem that's what people say right it's not that's not to be looked at, it's just something that that's what's affecting you.

[604] And you don't wear a uniform for depression.

[605] There isn't a job title for depression.

[606] Yeah.

[607] You know.

[608] One of the things you said at the start of this conversation was about one of the expectations that you do feel a bit of a bit of pressure to me is the one in your sort of romantic life, right?

[609] Yeah.

[610] I've struggled with that for a long time.

[611] I've got to be honest.

[612] Yeah.

[613] struggled with their girlfriends dating all that stuff, Tinder, all of the way that people date in the modern age and just like finding good people and really putting the effort in because I can't be bothered with the small talk yeah yeah so tell me about that you're a single man right now I'm single right now yes yeah I just to be honest it's like I did my my one thing that I struggle with and I've I've I've had girlfriends that you know in the past where I've I've been an absolute arson on night of course like do you know what I mean and I've let work get in the way I've let that lifestyle kind of get in the way but the one thing that I know is that I want that relationship I see my mom and dad have I want that like more than anything you know and I just I think the thing that I panic about more is you know it's it's it's an odd thing but it's like like for me I think it's an insecurity that a lot of men have that never talk about as well which is will I be able to have kids when I'm older people never talk about that but like I know any of my mates talk about that but I'm always like oh that's my biggest fear someone says what's your biggest fear that because i think that my sole purpose on this life is is just to make other people that are nice like that's how i feel so you know for me is i'm such a family person i feel like at this point in time i worry that if i got into something would i be able to give that person what they deserve in terms of being a partner because i am work focused and i do like and i'm enjoying my life right now i'm enjoying doing what i'm doing and i don't want to like defer for from that.

[614] Have you struggled when you're in a relationship?

[615] And if so, what is the, what is the, in your sort of self -aware opinion, what is the reason why you struggle in relationships?

[616] I struggled in relationships in the past and I still will struggle now going forward because I always have this massive fear that there is resentment on my future partner's part.

[617] Do I mean?

[618] I never, I couldn't be with someone that doesn't really work or do those things because I'd be so scared that they'd look at me and think, oh, well, it's fine for him because he can get this or afford this or do this and this.

[619] Do you know what I mean?

[620] I always try my best to make sure that I'm with someone that I can raise up as much as people on the outside raise me up.

[621] You know, because that's a horrible thing that I see so much.

[622] And look, I go through it even now.

[623] Like, you know, people come up to me and they go, oh my God, your dad is such an amazing person, blah, blah, blah.

[624] Do you ever think about you with your dad and with your dad and all this type of stuff?

[625] And I'm like, you know, my mom is wicked.

[626] Like, do you know what?

[627] mean and that I think that worry that I always had with my mom and I always felt like I had to stand up for my mom and be like hang on she played at live aid as well do you know what I mean she had a number one record as well I always feel like I worry that in a about that in a partner and I want to always make sure that a partner knows that that no matter how many people are coming up to me and saying oh you know you're doing really well doing really well I'll always be there and say yeah but she's doing this that's so interesting you know what I mean do you know what i i don't because i've not i've not been through that yeah but that's that's you know what i mean that that's that's the thing that i think it's so important i see so many asshole people like and i've seen it my whole life right that are celebrities that you they introduce themselves to you or you you speak to them and their partner just stands there and they don't even introduce them to you and you must have seen that growing up because that that feels like it's very front of mind for you whereas i yeah yeah for sure people just don't want to talk to my dad but it's like you know it's a partnership you know my dad my dad That's always, obviously, obviously, I'm my mum now.

[628] Yeah, fine.

[629] But, like, I don't want that.

[630] I don't want my partner to feel like everyone just wants to talk to Roman.

[631] I don't want that.

[632] Like, I really don't.

[633] And people, and all for my partner to think, what I do isn't as good as what he does, or doesn't earn as much money as what he does, or doesn't, you know, get as much gratification as he does.

[634] Does that mean that you go for?

[635] No, it means that I go, I have, I love, like, women that have their, you know life going on or like a busier those types of things that detracts me more than anything you know you look at the girls that updated in the past they're that they're girls that are doing their own thing and they're fucking good at it like and you know and it's one of the reasons to be totally honest with you it's one of the reasons why I don't really say English girls ever I love someone not knowing what I do for a living I love someone not caring at all if I was to ask one of your your two last exes if I said why did your relationship with Roman and what's your and they'd say um two folks on work too focused on what he's doing um i'd say that that's interesting i i was that guy for a long time maybe still am yeah but there but there's nothing wrong with being that and that's that's what i have to learn there's nothing wrong with being that because if if you are happy in your life if if you are you know getting that fulfillment which i feel like i am then that's okay there's a time for everything yeah i see it's for me it was like a chapter.

[636] So there was a phase of my life where I was very, very, very selfish.

[637] But I always wanted romantic connection in a relationship.

[638] I started to actually learn the importance of it studying some stuff and seeing that men that had a romantic partner for their lives were lived like several years longer, got ill, way less.

[639] And I was thinking, okay, maybe having a relationship isn't as is equally important as just making millions of pounds.

[640] And then I started to feel, I don't know, you get older, you've had a lot of sex with a lot of people that you just can't remember.

[641] And you thought, well, that wasn't it.

[642] That didn't feel.

[643] the day after so you go okay this is more substantive to have a meaningful relationship and then I've started to realize that okay this is only ever going to work if I compromise a little bit sometimes and also find someone worth compromising for yeah but a relationship is all about a compromise yeah that's it it's always about compromise and and it's about finding someone that is your best friend not not about you know someone that you just find really fit are you compromising do you think um I at the minute I'm not because I feel like at this moment in time and I'll be totally honest with you after um after I lost Joe after Joe does I kind of got in this mindset where I was like you know what I just need to live my life I just need to do what I want to do and not feel like if I I didn't personally I didn't want to get into a relationship because I felt like some of my relationships or some of the moments that I've been with people I feel like I've wasted my time yeah and I can't not feel like that so many people so many girls feel like that about guys that they've dated.

[644] I'm sure that this is this podcast.

[645] And I felt like that too.

[646] And I felt like, you know, why was I trying to compromise when I need to enjoy myself a little bit, you know, and find that kind of happiness.

[647] And I firmly believe that that time will come.

[648] I'm definitely a relationship person, 100%.

[649] Yeah.

[650] But, you know, I believe that time will come.

[651] But right now, I just know that it's more so in my head, it's like, I know that I could get into seeing someone or whatever but I just know that it'll reach a point where I can't give them what they deserve right now and a girl doesn't deserve to have someone that might be too tired that day to even text them yeah yeah yeah do you know what I mean yeah yeah like and I'm someone that likes my own space so it's hard so looking forward at the future then one of the things you said earlier was that you are the type guy that like knocks on the door of your boss's office and says listen I want that show this is what I want so tell me what it is that you want looking forward professionally in your in your future my my my my as to where I am right now I'm very happy where I am right now like very happy therefore I'm not urging myself to to to knock on any doors genuinely there are things that I feel passionate about which I really feel like I'm going to make this and I want to make this going back to you know schools and mental health which I think is a really important thing and I have a platform and to be able to do it so I will do that I think the common question I always get asked is oh yeah so what's the next step tv and it's like no it's i'm 28 years old and and i've got in my opinion the best job in the UK i get to wake up every day and and feel like i'm back at school waking people up every day that time will come that pressure that i'll put on myself to go and find the next thing or to think about where i want to move next will come later on right now I'm in a genuine position where I love what I do I get up at silly o 'clock but second I'm there I'm happy and and enjoying it and I don't feel like you know we spoke about this earlier on as a as a presenter I if I came out a radio tomorrow I'd be worried I'd be thinking oh shit have I been on TV enough this month have I have I tweeted enough have I done Instagram enough like I love the fact that my job now I don't have to think about that.

[652] I don't have to post on Instagram if I don't want to because I've just spoken to seven million people that week.

[653] Do you know what I mean?

[654] And been with them through a journey every single day.

[655] The pandemic was an amazing thing.

[656] Like in terms of, I remember I had two weeks, two weeks holiday in April 2020.

[657] And I was going to take it.

[658] And my dad called me. It was like, you can't.

[659] I was on what you mean?

[660] You can't go on holiday.

[661] It was like, this is, this is like the most important time that you will ever have to, to, you know, be with people and go through this with them.

[662] You can't just walk away.

[663] They're relying on you to do that.

[664] This is your responsibility to do it.

[665] You actually got quite angry at me because it was just like, no, it's your responsibility to do that, to provide some form of normality for those people.

[666] And, and so I did.

[667] And, you know, throughout the pandemic, it was, we created these relationships with people that are working.

[668] you realize how much radio means and you create friendships with listeners and with people up and down the country that you meet and that to be able to go in every day and say that's my job is an amazing thing and i really truly genuinely love it in the spirit of one of the things you said to me during this conversation now that we've been talking for a little while i feel like i have to ask you yeah how are you doing i'm doing all right i'm doing all right there are bad days there are bad days where you know you kind of you kind of think you know did do I really want to be in talking about suicide do I really want to be going over a trauma that's in my head you know do I want to sack in the whole job and and just I've got enough money now to live a nice little life somewhere quiet and just go and do that but I think those are all kind of moments in my life that are you know moving forward and like you said like I think there's so much more life for me to learn I think that I am happy if I think about it I am happy I'm I'm proud of the things that I've achieved you know little things little things that I've achieved you know whenever people ask me what am I going to do in five years I'd rather say to them well this is why I did five years ago the last five years would look pretty decent so I'm comfortable in my you know ability moving forward you know I think that I'm definitely tired which is one thing always tired what do you mean about that always like tired in a physical fatigued way which getting up at 430 will do to you but no I'm okay as I say there's up days and there's down days but those down days I'm pleased as well that I've got a good core friend group around me. I'm glad that I've got my parents around me. I've glad that I've gone out there and I've taught myself the tools that I need to go and fight Mike Tyson in there and be able to go up against him.

[669] And that's why I feel passionate to be able to go and do that for kids now.

[670] We have a closing tradition.

[671] Oh, yeah.

[672] Each guest that comes on the podcast, writes a question for the next guest inside of the diary of a CEO.

[673] So, um, okay.

[674] How could you be more authentically you.

[675] By being off my phone, I'd say.

[676] And I mean that just because when I did, I'm a celebrity, get me out of her, that was the happiest I've ever been easily.

[677] In there, I was Roe, which is what my friends know.

[678] That was me. Like, this here is, someone who has to work has to do all these sorts of things and that and has all these other sides but there i didn't have any phone no expectation no nothing i completely forgot the cameras are on you all those sorts of situations so so for sure the more i can stop working and enjoy moments without work that's how i can be more authentically me interesting thank you so much Honestly, Roman, you know, um, you know, I, the amount of, um, the amount of value that your openness to do what you're doing.

[679] And I see it as you are like doing a service for society.

[680] And especially because of the, the horrific nature of the statistics around like mental health and suicide.

[681] I can't tell you, even for me, what this conversation has done in terms of opening my eyes.

[682] Yeah.

[683] And like I know, like, so I just, I guess what I want to do is I just wanted to thank you because I also, I don't envy, and I'm going to be honest, I don't envy the position of people coming up to me all the time and talking about a topic like that.

[684] Yeah.

[685] I find it hard just even now people talking to me about, oh, here's my business idea.

[686] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[687] And sometimes I open my DMs and I'm having a good day working out, and then I'll see a message, which is very, which is of a similar vein, which is very, very tragic, and it will just push me off a little bit.

[688] Yeah.

[689] So for you to choose, knowingly to put yourself in the position of being a, involuntary advocate uh like the ambassador of of this this topic is such a self do you find it hard saying suicide you do there's a little part of you that's not you know i do yeah it's so weird it's not a swear word when i first did the documentary when i first did the documentary sorry to cut you off no yeah it's right please continue after to tell me how great i am but but when i first started making the documentary i felt like And you're, you know, we're going to talk about today.

[690] We're going to talk about, it's weird.

[691] But it's a normal word.

[692] It's life.

[693] Again, it's the biggest killer in men our age.

[694] Like, suicide is a very normal word.

[695] It makes you feel uncomfortable, doesn't it?

[696] Yes.

[697] And that's what that's to stop.

[698] But I just could see in your eye there.

[699] Yeah, I was thinking about these dams and I'm an ambassador for suicide.

[700] Yeah.

[701] Suicide sounds, you know what suicide?

[702] It sounds like it's a really emotional word.

[703] Yeah.

[704] So with emotional words, we tend to, you know, use them sparingly.

[705] Yeah, but I was just intrigued because it's something that I had.

[706] Let me finish off.

[707] No, but I genuinely mean that from the bottom of my heart.

[708] Like, it's, it's what you're doing, as I said, I don't envy.

[709] It's not easy.

[710] But the tremendous, I think, service it's doing to society at a time when we need it the most and we need people that are willing to have those conversations.

[711] And be honest, because a lot of men are still caged, is it's like impossible to quantify.

[712] I don't think you'll ever get to see the good you do.

[713] But I just want you to know from my perspective and just on me personally from seeing that documentary that, uh, God, I can't think of many greater goods that someone can do for men in this day and age.

[714] So thank you as a man, but as just as a citizen of society as well.

[715] Thank you.

[716] Well, very much appreciate that.

[717] And thank you for, uh, for ever been on your podcast.

[718] Thank you so much for a really.

[719] Appreciate it.