WHEN To Discipline and HOW To Get On the Same Page

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[24] So you've got a child who steals stuff, take stuff from his siblings.

[25] could be toys, stickers, little cards, Legos, right?

[26] And he just takes stuff and then he denies it, even though his pile of stuff is like eight times bigger than the siblings.

[27] Or you have a child who won't stop lying, getting in trouble, just fill in the blank with the behavior.

[28] What do you do with that?

[29] When do you actually do the discipline and address that?

[30] That's what we're going to discuss today on the Calm Parenting Podcast.

[31] So welcome.

[32] This is Kirk Martin, founder of CelebrateCalm .com.

[33] If you need help with anything, reach out to our strong -willed son, Casey, C -A -S -E -Y at celebratecom .com.

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[39] So when you have this situation where a child is stealing from siblings or just pick the behavior, right?

[40] Usually what we do is, as parents, we get all over, right?

[41] Because your anxiety's triggered a little bit and you're like, well, I need to address this because I don't want my child growing up thinking it's okay to do this and we better nip this in the butt.

[42] And so we start to lecture and what we miss is that we go really overboard sometimes in the moment thinking, I've got to address it right now.

[43] And what I want to encourage you with and what I want you to know, because I'm an older guy who's been through a lot of this with a lot of these kids is you don't have to do it immediately.

[44] It's not going to ruin your child's life and you're not a bad parent if you just don't keep, if you don't hammer him like all day long, right?

[45] Because that's what we tend to do and we start to lecture and we need to talk about him about integrity and how important it is and that in that tone of voice, that kind of hectoring and teaching, so to speak, of like, well, honey, you know, it's really anything to me, and I know I'm kind of mocking us as parents right now, but I want you to hear it.

[46] Anything that starts with honey, you know, it's really important.

[47] If you start like that, I just encourage you to not do that because the child shuts down immediately and you always have to keep in mind, how is the other person receiving what you are saying?

[48] Because sometimes as parents, I think we go on autopilot of like, okay, we just did something wrong, so I need to deliver lecture 14B about integrity or how we don't do that as a family or about think about your future, whatever it is.

[49] And we just spout it off without regard to, is this really landing and is this really effective?

[50] It's sometimes as if we're kind of doing it because, well, we feel like we need to do something and you're really busy.

[51] So it makes you feel better as a parent, but it doesn't make the child feel any better.

[52] and that's not really as important as it is the fact that it doesn't actually accomplish what we want, right?

[53] Because you can have tough discipline.

[54] At times, kids, it's not about like just coddling them at all, but I want it to land and I want them to take ownership of it.

[55] And I want them to actually change their behavior, but not drill into them a lot of embarrassment and shame.

[56] And I know in these situations, like I'll be on phone calls and there'll be a, you know, I'm working with a couple and a lot of times this is generally speaking you can hear the dad the husband he's like well we just you know the way i was raised we just need to and i'm like i know that right and i know it's easy to say just be black and white right you take these things you lose everything you have and i'm going to give it to your brothers so it's kind of like stop or you lose everything in certain cases i will go with very hardcore discipline and i've said often i love declaring my Marshall wall in the home.

[57] It's just when I do.

[58] I'm even, matter of fact, and very low key with it.

[59] And I'll hear parents even say, and I've heard this live workshops, like, well, this sentiment, you can't, right?

[60] You can't let the little jerk just get away with things, right?

[61] Because how's it going to affect him in the future?

[62] And he's going to be a sociopath and steal things.

[63] And I wanted to address that.

[64] And I wanted you to know that you're not alone in these situations, right?

[65] So number one thing I had written down is, If you take that hardcore approach, right, especially toward parents of strong will kids, because a lot of parents of kids who are more compliant are like, well, I just give him a consequence and you just teach him who's boss.

[66] And I'm like, you don't know what it's like, right?

[67] Because all of these parents of strong will children have already done that.

[68] And it simply doesn't work because the kids don't understand or don't care about consequences.

[69] You're not getting to the root of the issue.

[70] you right and those of you with strong will kids who also have a more compliant child you can see the difference with one child you just look at them the wrong way or the right way and they just they're humbled and they do what you say and the other child digs in and so what i like to say to the judgmental parents is you have no idea what it's like to walk on eggshells literally every day wondering when this child that you love is going to explode and even implode, which can often be worse when you implode on yourself and drive that self -hatred in a way of like, I'm dumb, I'm stupid, nobody likes me. That's as bad as the explosions where sometimes it leads to them just throwing things and breaking things and they can get violent.

[71] Right?

[72] You have no idea what it's like to walk on eggshells.

[73] And I know the first thought is, well, you know, you wouldn't be walking on eggshells if from the beginning, you would establish your authority.

[74] And I get that.

[75] But it doesn't always work like that with these kids.

[76] And what I want you to know is the parent of a strong will child is you're not alone.

[77] There are other parents, a lot of them that are going through this because we do an awful lot of, we get a lot of emails from these parents.

[78] And I do a lot of mentoring and phone consultations and people going through our programs.

[79] You're not alone, right?

[80] And I understand that.

[81] number two you don't understand if you're just thinking like well you just need to take this approach you don't understand a how helpless it feels to be a child who thinks that he simply cannot change and that there's something wrong with them that there is something fundamentally wrong with him and that he is inferior because he sees all the siblings around him and all the other kids in school behaving a certain way and he just can't seem to fix it that makes a child feel very, very helpless.

[82] And then related to that is B, shame, you have no idea the level of shame and embarrassment that a child feels inside after he's been exposed, right?

[83] Now, you may because if you've ever been exposed or had someone come along and point out when you're messing up and did something wrong, you know what that feels like.

[84] And there's a tremendous amount of shame and embarrassment inside a strong -willed child.

[85] I want them to show contrition and humility and change.

[86] But that's a lot different than feeling embarrassment and shame, which tends to drive them further into denial.

[87] Look, the reason your kids lie and that you will line up the pile of toys or whatever it is and say, you know, you all started with the same amount, you have eight times as many.

[88] and they will simply deny that they stole it.

[89] And there's only one reason to do that.

[90] And that's because you are so ashamed and embarrassed and so feeling so helpless that you have to deny reality.

[91] Right.

[92] And so what feeling of inferiority and shame would compel a child to lie, to steal, to quit, to cheat at games, knowing he's going to be found out?

[93] And so you have to get inside the child's heart if you want to be able to connect and if you want your discipline to actually be effective.

[94] And I'll give one more.

[95] And this is for those of you who were diehard and some of the guys out there who are just, you know, I don't believe in this soft stuff when we were kids.

[96] He just got the belt.

[97] You know, what kind of dysfunction have you not dealt with from your childhood?

[98] What kind of dysfunction have you carried through?

[99] your life.

[100] And do you, right?

[101] You have it.

[102] You know how I know that?

[103] Because so do I. And I work really hard on my dysfunction.

[104] Right.

[105] And I know all of us carry stuff.

[106] The fear of failure, the rejection.

[107] Some of you, it's addictions, whether it's alcohol or porn.

[108] Maybe you cheat on your wife, right?

[109] Maybe it's you use fear and intimidation and you grumble a lot because that makes your kids and wife or your or your husband depends who's doing this it makes them kind of stay away and they stop asking you for things because you put the shell around you that is so kind of difficult that nobody asked you for anything right and you use it to silence others or maybe you're uh you had that martyr mother complex where you do everything for everybody else or maybe you're completely dependent on your children and you can't let go and so everything is about your kids and about your kids and about your shield.

[110] There's no blame and guilt there.

[111] We all have this stuff inside of us.

[112] But what we do as parents is we get so hyper -focused on our kids and what they're doing, that we follow them around and point out every single dysfunction that they have and everything that they did wrong.

[113] And we talk about their choices all the time.

[114] And I say this all the time, but what if I came and I spent a day with you and I did the same thing to you, you would curl up in the fetal position or you'd murder me right and so this child has uh is clearly doing some things wrong right there's no denial of that i'm not saying like well it's just because he's hurting that's not what i'm saying right and so he clearly has some dysfunction and whatever you want to call he makes mistakes bad choices he's sinful he's defiant i'm fine with all those words but so do you and so do i And if you can't be merciful with another human being or with yourself, don't have relationships with human beings.

[115] And I'd encourage you if you are kind of, have that kind of approach.

[116] And unfortunately, where we find it the most is usually in religious homes, the ones where there are supposed to be more mercy.

[117] But it's probably not your fault, so to speak.

[118] It's because you grew up in a home where everything was law -based and it was all about the judgment of God and everything else it was like that and was very hardcore because that feels so safe because we like law and order, right?

[119] We love the idea of authority as long as we're the authority figure, right?

[120] And there's very little mercy.

[121] And if you grew up in a home like that, I guarantee you if you don't deal with it inside yourself, you will continue to replicate that on your own kids.

[122] And you will parent like that.

[123] And I just ask you, look at the fruit of that.

[124] Is it working?

[125] Well, my kids don't talk back to me. Well, they may not talk back to you, but I guarantee they probably don't talk to you, and they probably don't listen to you.

[126] They probably do what I did as a kid, which is cower and fear at my career military father, who just didn't have any tools, and he treated us like young recruits in the army, and yelled and screamed and intimidated us so that we behaved well outwardly, but inwardly, we're filled with all kinds of confusion and anger.

[127] and our hearts weren't changed, our outward behavior was changed so that we didn't get yelled out.

[128] And you know what the fruit of that is?

[129] I'm a 54 -year -old man who sometimes doesn't speak up because even though my father has been passed away has been dead for almost 20 years, I still hear his voice in my head.

[130] I'm still afraid that he's lurking around the corner telling me what I'm doing wrong, disappointed in me. That still lingers.

[131] it's there so you must have mercy on your children you must have mercy on yourself and other people i remember as a young man i was always like especially at a brother who's a pastor i was like well we just you know we need justice and i remember i'm looking at me with a sweet face in st kirk as you get older you will realize you do not want justice you want mercy we want mercy not justice not justice so let's go through in a practical term because we want to deal with the issues.

[132] I don't let kids get away with anything, but just yelling at them or getting on them all the time doesn't work.

[133] And I want it.

[134] So think about this.

[135] Right down the word space and time.

[136] So we've got this situation where this child is, let's say he's been stealing stuff from his siblings and it's been building and you've been noticing it.

[137] You've talked to him a million times.

[138] And this day, it's just kind of come to a head and you're just on them and you're talking to about integrity and you've seen it and you're on them.

[139] And you've been talking and lecturing all day long.

[140] I would encourage you give it a break, sleep on it for a night, maybe for two nights.

[141] If this is in the middle of the week when you've got school and all the other pressures, you may let it go till the next weekend, right?

[142] You don't have to address everything immediately and stop making a federal case out of everything, right?

[143] Because it's like we just focus on the thing that they're doing.

[144] We're like, we're like, we'd better.

[145] better stomp this out.

[146] Look, I'm 54.

[147] I'll give you some insight.

[148] There are certain things in my life that are just difficult for me and that I've never really gotten over.

[149] And I know this will irritate some of you.

[150] But if I spent all my time trying to fix some of those things that have just been a thorn in my side, my entire life, all the good stuff that I'm doing would be muted because I wouldn't have time for that.

[151] And so, again, I know this doesn't sound right, especially those from religious homes.

[152] I try to spend 98 % of my energy doing this stuff I'm really good at and using the skills I've been given and using the qualities and the attributes as I know, build people up and support people and edify people and myself that make me a better person that allow me to live with grace and mercy and lift people up, and I try to focus on that.

[153] And there are certain areas of my life and certain things that I don't beat myself up for that much anymore because I found in 54 years, I've never figured out the key to that.

[154] And I know from reading ancient Proverbs, there is no perfection, right?

[155] And if you try to do that, listen, I'm going to dig myself in a whole year, and you may misunderstand that.

[156] But what I want you to know is you can't fix everything.

[157] And there are certain things that you kind of live with.

[158] And you live with them for a moment, right?

[159] And there is wisdom in that if you will really think about it.

[160] Because how many people have you known that, oh, they solely focus, I've got to do this, I've got to fix this, I've got to fix this.

[161] And it usually makes that thing worse.

[162] And when putting all that energy in to find to fix this thing that's a thorn in your side, you stop doing all the things that you're really, really good at and that come naturally to you.

[163] It's not an excuse for my religious friends.

[164] It's not an excuse for sin, right?

[165] But it's an understanding of I've got certain weaknesses and I've got certain things that I allow myself because I know the way I'm made, I have to or I would self -destruct.

[166] Right?

[167] And so I'm encouraging you that what you're struggling with with your child, these things of like he's stealing things, doing these things, he's not going to be a sociopath when he's older.

[168] He's not growing up in a good home.

[169] He has parents who listen to a parenting podcast, who download programs, who buy resources from us to be better parents.

[170] They're growing up in a good home.

[171] So let it go till the next day.

[172] And let's say that you've got three kids.

[173] I don't want to keep talking to this child about his behavior all the time in front of his brothers and sisters.

[174] And I'm like, I know, but then other kids are going to think that you're letting him get away with things.

[175] It's not true.

[176] Not true.

[177] So in this case, here's an idea.

[178] So you've got three kids.

[179] And this is to say this is a boy.

[180] I'm going to have mom maybe take the two other kids out, come up with an excuse, and have dad take the strong will child out one day and maybe you go for a walk or maybe you play with Legos or maybe you go and get a pizza.

[181] Something so you're not in front of everybody else.

[182] So you're not furthering that continuing like just talking endlessly and reinforcing the shame.

[183] you get out and you're doing something positive and you build a child up and say, you know, there are two or three things I've noticed about you and ways that I wish I was more like you with your persistence, the great critical thinking skills, the way you lay upside down off the sofa and the way that you see the world in such a creative way.

[184] There are so many things that I'm learning from you, son, that I wish I was more like you because I'm kind of rigid at times and you show me how to view the world differently.

[185] And so I do want to address something no because look I know I'm not going to I'm not going to harp on this but I know that you're taking stuff from your brothers I know that so I want to give you some space and I want to give you a choice to make because you do have to make a choice here right now you can have this choice I want to give you a chance to own this yourself in private when no one's watching you because I've noticed your pile of stuff is a lot bigger than your brothers and your sisters so They're out of the house now.

[186] I'm going to give a little space because I got some stuff to do.

[187] So your choice is take a little time and go through those things that you've taken.

[188] And I want you to put those back.

[189] That's called restoration.

[190] I want you to restore it.

[191] And I want you to do what's right because it's going to feel really good to do that.

[192] And when you do that, I'm going to be really proud of you.

[193] And I think you're going to be really proud of yourself.

[194] And I want to give you some space to do that.

[195] The other option is that if you're not going to do that, then I'm going to have to take it.

[196] And then I'm going to have to do it.

[197] And I want to establish something.

[198] I want to give you ownership.

[199] Now, I don't want to talk that long.

[200] I'm kind of talking off the top of my head here.

[201] But I want to go with something that's very short and sweet of like, I know what's happening.

[202] I get it.

[203] Everybody does stuff.

[204] Everybody does stuff wrong.

[205] And I get it.

[206] Nobody's watching you.

[207] Nobody's standing over you.

[208] Nobody's blaming you.

[209] We're just saying that it's a fact that it's happening.

[210] And I'm giving you a choice while nobody's watching to just make it right.

[211] And that's going to show me. me that you've grown up, that you're mature, and I'm going to be really proud of you.

[212] Now, if you refuse to do that, I can't let you get away with that in my home, right?

[213] Because that's not how we roll.

[214] We share things here.

[215] We live honestly.

[216] And so I'll need to do it.

[217] If you can't do it, I will do it.

[218] And so I like that approach a lot of times with our kids where we pull them aside and see, the discipline doesn't have to be, Jordan, you know, we really need to talk about your behavior and then we use things and we kind of pommel them right again and again and again and I'd rather just lay it out and say look it's pretty clear what's happening I get it I know you know that's wrong and I know you know how to fix it and so I'm going to give you an opportunity to do that while nobody's looking and I'm not going to make a big deal out of it I'm just going to walk by and give you a fist bump and let you know I'm really proud of you for how you handled that so let's try that next time let's have mercy on each other have mercy on yourself let's think about how these things land and whether we're being effective or not, not whether we're just, well, I did something, I disciplined, I told him it was wrong.

[219] Well, but anybody can do that, right?

[220] Like, I'm, like, I think most of us are pretty good at being judgmental and harsh by nature, right?

[221] Like, that is my natural go -to.

[222] You want me to be a jerk?

[223] Fine.

[224] I can be a jerk really easily.

[225] Give me a topic.

[226] Tell me something.

[227] And I can let me. lose for five or ten minutes and be judgmental.

[228] What's really hard for me is to step back and be patient and to think how it's going to land and how is this going to actually work its way through another human being's heart.

[229] I would encourage you as I end this.

[230] Let's do this with our spouse too.

[231] Right?

[232] Your spouse doesn't want to be hammered all the time.

[233] Well, you know, you've never done this.

[234] Okay, good.

[235] Okay, I've never done it.

[236] Guess what?

[237] That's probably not going to stop now.

[238] Thanks for believing in me. Right?

[239] Like what, like does that work?

[240] Does that work?

[241] We get it all the time.

[242] We get it all the time from people like, well, I just need to speak the truth and love.

[243] Well, what I know from experience is, no, you really just want to judge or give your opinion on something without regard to how that's going to make me feel and how I'm going to receive that, right?

[244] That's a cop -out.

[245] And it's often a very hurtful and harmful thing that happens when we do those things.

[246] and for my religious friends, Christian friends, Jewish friends, Muslim friends, you know, there's things that we do of like, well, I just need to speak the truth in love.

[247] Well, let's think about that.

[248] Let's think about what our motive is before we do that and think about how it's going to impact the other person.

[249] It's not about you, right?

[250] When I want to correct another person or, right, which is like, in personal life, I don't like to walk around correcting other.

[251] people.

[252] I really have found that it's better when I say, you know what the best qualities and why I appreciate your friendship?

[253] It's because of X, Y, and Z, right?

[254] And I find that that tends to change their behavior more than anything else rather than, you know, one of the more irritating parts of your personality is X, and I think we should just dwell on that a little bit.

[255] Right?

[256] Let's not talk about A, B, and C. I'd rather just focus on the thing that you're not doing well that irritates me. Aren't you glad that I brought that up?

[257] That's going to make you a better person.

[258] And you're like, no, you just really just kind of wounded me because you assumed that my motives were bad when I do that behavior, right?

[259] And so I think we can approach people in different ways.

[260] Look, I'll do one more in politics, because I'm not going to cut this off at 25 minutes.

[261] Is it really working to rail at people who maybe have a different point of view?

[262] Have you found that they're saying, oh man, I didn't realize that my political point of view was so bad.

[263] Thanks for pointing that out.

[264] Would it not work better if we engaged them and didn't judge their motives and tried to understand why they're coming from and then try to take a more merciful approach to it?

[265] You may just find that you win someone over.

[266] And even if you don't win them over, which shouldn't be your aim anyway.

[267] Your aim is to demonstrate that your aim is to demonstrate that your, that your motives are good and that you as a holder of this view as a Christian, as a Jewish person, as a Muslim, as a whatever it is, as a new age person, as a Buddhist.

[268] Your goal is to demonstrate that by following these teachings, I'm a really gracious, kind person who puts other people.

[269] people above me who is selfless and kind and giving and patient.

[270] That's how I want to represent the God, however you want to define it, that I serve, or the political point or a policy that I want to represent and that I want to influence.

[271] I want people say, yeah, I may not agree with your point of view, but man, what I'm finding is people who do have that point of view tend to be patient and gracious and merciful and kind and they listen a lot and they're not judgmental that's what I want so let's do that with each other and with our kids this week if we can help you reach out to us Casey at celebrate calm .com.

[272] Love you all.

[273] Bye -bye.