E19: Luke Massie - I Have Nothing To Hide

[0] People are annoyed because they think the people that invested have been burnt and then you've just brought the business back.

[1] At that point, shit was real.

[2] Sounds like a fucking nightmare.

[3] It's absolutely horrible.

[4] It's the most vulnerable I've ever been in my life.

[5] This is actually the first time I spoke about it.

[6] What's the truth?

[7] Yo.

[8] Thank you.

[9] Thanks for being here.

[10] Fairly last minute.

[11] I've just got back from New York and I was thinking I'm coming to Manchester.

[12] I want to make the most use of my time in the city.

[13] And you are one of the more, if you don't want to be.

[14] me saying one of the more famous, renowned, young entrepreneurs here, building an incredible business, an incredible way, with an incredible reputation.

[15] So I thought I would call on you to have this conversation with you.

[16] I think there's a huge amount of things that will relate on.

[17] I hope there's some things that we have different views on as well.

[18] I'm sure.

[19] That's definitely going to be the guess.

[20] 100%.

[21] But thank you so much for coming.

[22] Thank you for having me on.

[23] Last minute.

[24] Here's where I want to start.

[25] And I do this sometimes as a challenge.

[26] In 30 seconds, can you tell me Luke Massey's story from now, from birth till now?

[27] And the reason I do this is because I think it helps filter out the moments that are most significance.

[28] Do you reckon you're up for that challenge?

[29] Of course, always.

[30] Okay, so I'm going to stick 30 seconds on the clock.

[31] Yeah, cool.

[32] So young lab, born in Preston, one of five, grew up in a council estate.

[33] Father wasn't around, been through school, went to college, didn't go to university, didn't go to university, set up first business, set up another business, set up another business, constantly challenged, favourite sayings, why not, came across a big industry, I'm now challenging the big operators in that space and day -to -day asking why not.

[34] Perfect, exactly 30 seconds.

[35] Tell me about that first business.

[36] So my first business was a company called Mortgage Claims Direct, which, believe it not, had nothing to do with mortgages.

[37] How old are you?

[38] So I was 17 when I founded the company.

[39] So the company came about.

[40] I was at Cardinal Newman College in my first year of doing my air levels, so I was doing my AS.

[41] Based in Preston, and that was 9 to 4 every day.

[42] I was there five days a week.

[43] The college was?

[44] Yeah, so I was doing economics, finance, and sport, actually, at the time.

[45] And I was working at a law firm part -time in the evenings to make some money.

[46] So I used to finish at 4 and then run around the corner to start work at half 4 till half 8 every night.

[47] I'm going to, sorry to interrupt that, why?

[48] So, I needed to make money.

[49] So my mum is unemployed, has been, ever since I was young.

[50] Even when I was at school, I was making money, buying and selling sweets.

[51] I needed to make some cash to even just go out with my friends at the weekend.

[52] I've always been that person.

[53] So I've always made money, whether it was a milk round, whether it was a paper round, whether it was buying and selling sweets, etc. So even though I was at college, I didn't see that as an opportunity not to make cash.

[54] Do you think if you said your dad wasn't around?

[55] Yes, for a number of years, yeah.

[56] Do you think if your dad had been around and your mum had been employed, you would be who you are today?

[57] Well, probably not.

[58] I think my outlook on things would be different.

[59] I think my attitude towards challenges would be different.

[60] I think you probably get hardened all the time to challenges.

[61] And I think that starts at a very young age.

[62] I think in an isolation, I think being an entrepreneur, you come across challenges every single day.

[63] I think most people would crumble at those challenges because the big decisions that you're making have not just happened here and it happens right now.

[64] This is combined over five years, ten years, whatever it may be.

[65] Yeah, going back to the first business, I was working on the phones at a law firm, but there was actually a part of the law firm, which was a lead generation arm to the business.

[66] And basically, I was the annoying young lad at 17, bringing up asking if you'd been missouled PPI.

[67] But it was at a time when the banks hadn't lost, so every person we were calling would convert sort of one in 20.

[68] It was really hard, it was really hard work, and then something happened, the banks had lost.

[69] It was now legal that the banks had had to repair people that had been miss sold PPI.

[70] It was one of the biggest scandals ever.

[71] And our conversion rate went from 1 to 20 to literally 50%.

[72] Every other person I was calling, we'd got a hit.

[73] So I managed to save up 3 ,000 pounds and thought, this myself.

[74] It's an unregulated business.

[75] The barriers to entry is sole law.

[76] We don't have to be a solicitor firm.

[77] We can be a lead generation and enact on behalf of our clients.

[78] We keep 25 % of the money that's come back.

[79] It was a brilliant model.

[80] So I created my own script.

[81] I convinced two of the top girls to come and work for me. I said, I've just raised this investment.

[82] I managed to lie to a landlord in Preston, got an office space.

[83] I was meant to be 18 to get a tenancy.

[84] Set up this call centre and called it mortgage claims direct.

[85] And the reason for that is one of the biggest challenges I had at the law firm was when I was ringing up calling from a PPI company they didn't give me a chance whereas if I was calling from mortgage claims direct a mortgage is really important to everyone they give me at least 30 seconds on the phone which allowed me you know that foot through the door and we saw that our conversion was much higher than everyone else's so the three grand I had I worked out of I had basically six weeks worth of money you know I was paying these women full time whilst I was still at college doing my air levels and um you know i still to this day you know i'm fortunate enough for it but the we ran out of cash and for two weeks i had to say to these women this investors waiting to send the check to me etc you know yeah the the money's coming in and uh fortunately enough some of the claims started to come in which gave me a cash flow and so we managed to scale that business to 12 staff um and i sold the business for 94 000 pounds a week before my 18th birthday which sort of set the ball in motion which is wow you know there's there's ways to make cashier so it's incredible they're running a business at 17 years old where you have 12 staff is pretty pretty incredible i genuinely i worked in call centres from 16 to 20 from 16 to 20 yeah for about 16 to 19 years old and the i genuinely think the call center experience is one of the most valuable 100 i agree where you're going with this valuable valuable skills i develop Being a 16 -year -old, calling at people at random, out the blue at 9 a minute, trying to sell them double glazing or facial boards or conservatories really teaches you something which becomes a real valuable, transferable skill as an entrepreneur.

[86] Completely agree.

[87] And it also sets you up for one of the biggest things in life that people don't like, which is failure, which is that, you know, stepping out of your comfort zone, picking up the phone, speaking to a stranger, that is real life.

[88] And, you know, I talk about this a lot, but call centres are the modern day workshops.

[89] They are the modern day factories.

[90] Yeah, if you think about everything that requires mastery, it's a process of like practice makes perfect.

[91] So like David Beckham, he learns to do amazing free kicks by continually kicking the ball at the net for years and years and years.

[92] And if you think about what call send to work is, you sit there, you pick up the phone, you try, you learn, oh shit, that didn't work with that type of person.

[93] Yeah.

[94] 10 seconds down, you know, the phone is down.

[95] 10 seconds later, the phone is back up.

[96] You're trying again.

[97] I think there's a huge element of self -awareness, though.

[98] to that um when i would call i knew that the likelihood of someone buying from me based on how i looked was very very low yeah um i knew that if i was a steve or a steven it made a huge difference i knew if i was you know more articulate and um you know those little things but also personal yeah yeah i think self awareness is a tremendous thing and i think self awareness is something you can't teach yeah understanding what people think of you um so anyway moving on so you did that you sold the business you're 18 years old what happens next made a few mistakes um went I went and bought a car that I shouldn't have done.

[99] RS5, a thousand pound a month car insurance.

[100] And, you know, still then going back to see my mum in a councillor's there.

[101] Wasn't the best decision.

[102] Also, sort of gets the wrong attention.

[103] You know, I think the end of the day, looking back now, it was really poor decision at the time.

[104] It was, I always wanted that car.

[105] I went into Audi, you know, and for me it was my money.

[106] I've made it, that sort of thing.

[107] But that money could have been used a lot better.

[108] But those are mistakes that I'm.

[109] made at an early stage, which meant I've not had to go and do those now.

[110] So yeah.

[111] And then, yeah, I also started to invest in other businesses.

[112] Friends had come up to me with an idea of a loft converting business, for example.

[113] So I invested in Preston -Loft conversions.

[114] And I thought that if I can invest little bits of capital into three or four businesses, that that would generate me, that would generate me 20, 30 ,000 pound a year per business, and I wouldn't have to work again.

[115] And it was that because I'd had one success, I thought that would work.

[116] for everything else.

[117] And that was another huge mistake, which is you can't spread yourself too thin, but at the same time, stick to what you know.

[118] Don't go into markets that you don't know about.

[119] So where did Vibe come in?

[120] So Vibe was founded when I was 20 years old, but it wasn't a business.

[121] So people talk about Vibe was found in 2013.

[122] It's five years old.

[123] Yes, it was formed five years ago.

[124] That's because I incorporated the name.

[125] I knew it was a very, very good brand at the time, but I didn't know what it was.

[126] So I had four tickets to see.

[127] Ed Shearing that I bought on my card.

[128] We bought, for me and my friends, we bought four tickets, 100 pounds each.

[129] They gave me the cash, I put it in my bank, and I made the purchase for these tickets.

[130] Something came up in the social calendar, which meant we couldn't go to the event, and my mates were asking for the cash back, basically.

[131] So I went to Google, typed in selling tickets, and there was a number of sites that offered me the option to sell these tickets.

[132] There was Get Me In, Viagogo, Steatweb.

[133] It was a pretty crowded market.

[134] They were all offering the same service for the same fees, etc. But the problem I had as a consumer at the time was two major problems.

[135] First of all, they all charged me a selling fee.

[136] So in order for me to get the 400 pounds back, I had to list them at 500.

[137] And knowing at the other end there was a buyer going to pay a fee as well, I just didn't think that was morally right.

[138] But if I'm being completely honest with everyone, the biggest issue I had with it was that all these sites would only pay me in the money after the event because they wanted to control a process.

[139] Now, what 20 -year -old lad can afford to give their mates back 100 pounds each, wait for six months.

[140] It just wasn't feasible.

[141] So I thought, you know, this is shit.

[142] Went to Twitter, you know, anyone at our age when they've got a problem goes and rants about it.

[143] I tweeted the fact that I had four tickets to see Ed Shearing, hashtag Manchester, hashtag Ed Shearing.

[144] And literally within sort of four or five minutes, there was genuine Ed Shearing fans tweeted me. Hi Luke, I'll take the tickets.

[145] They could see that I was a real person.

[146] They could see that I invested in my Twitter profile.

[147] So I got chatting to one genuine Ed Shearing fan.

[148] I tweeted him the screenshot in my confirmation of purchase, shared with him my PayPal details so he could send me money as a stranger would be covered.

[149] And I managed to get my money back within 10 minutes.

[150] And it was at that time where I questioned, as I always have in life, you know, my why is, you know, there was a need here on a buyer and a seller's part, but the current operators in the space weren't fulfilling that need for either of us.

[151] So I started questioning, you know, if I've done this, surely there's other people doing it.

[152] So I started using it.

[153] So I started using things like tweet deck and and checking how many tweets there were.

[154] And just on Twitter alone, there was between 15 and 25 million tweets a month with the keywords need tickets, want tickets, spare tickets.

[155] So that's when the light bulb moment happened for me, which is if I can replicate what I've done, then I can help thousands of people.

[156] So we set up basically the hashtag good vibes.

[157] And that's how vibe was born.

[158] Vibe tickets was a free resource.

[159] Anyone who wanted a ticket or had a spare ticket would tweet us and we'd just retweet it.

[160] And within the first six months, grew to 60 ,000 followers.

[161] We then grew to 100 ,000 followers.

[162] And this was an amazing time for us because we had people from the industry itself from Ticketmaster using our hashtag and using our Twitter and it was insane.

[163] And that's how I actually met my first investor who basically used Twitter to sell some Formula One tickets and was like, I want to know who this lad is behind this account because he's just saved me a fortune.

[164] This is such a good idea.

[165] So at some stage you think I'm going to turn this into a company and an app.

[166] Well, again, I didn't, the idea was planted in my head, so completely randomly, but the guy who ended up being my first investor said to me, Matt Newin, said to me, this is really cool, wouldn't it be brilliant if every time someone tweeted you, you made a pound?

[167] So at the time, just to give you an idea of figures, it was just me in my bedroom, but we were doing between 3 and 5 ,000 tweets a day, pre -tweets like connecting people, and just to give you an idea of volume, that's probably between 3 and 5 million pounds worth of tickets every single day.

[168] So we were causing nuisance in the resale market because the big full resale of spending money on user acquisition, on SEO, on PPC to try and get people to these sites.

[169] And we're just taking it all on social because we remove those barriers to entry.

[170] We just wanted to connect those people.

[171] So it was at that time that this guy who was obviously a lot older than me, a lot more savier than me, sort of presented this idea.

[172] And that's when I thought, ah, a marketplace.

[173] So it's brilliant that all these people are using Twitter, but A, I don't own the customer.

[174] B, I can never monetize this And C, if I'm going to build something of value And I want to pivot and change the product I'm going to have to own it myself And that's when I went back to him with a business idea And said, look, I've listened to what you've said You've planted this idea in my mind I can't get it out of my head now I think I can build a vibe community And that's when the idea of vibe came about And I wrote my first business plan as such And on that day he wrote me a check for 200 ,000 pounds A physical check for 200 ,000 pounds He said, well this be enough to get you on new way.

[175] So you make this MVP, this kind of like, you know, minimal viable product to prove the concept.

[176] And then you raise, do you raise again?

[177] Yeah, we carried on raising, but I mean, this is another thing that people ask me about how do I raise capital?

[178] Our MVP was the Twitter account.

[179] We could prove that even though we didn't have a product that thousands of people were using this as a genuine alternative.

[180] Yeah, I guess you can prove the need.

[181] Yes.

[182] Then there's that you've got to prove the execution.

[183] Yes.

[184] The idea, right?

[185] So.

[186] And this is where I think, for anyone who's who's trying to raise capital really needs to consider this because the amount of people that come to me asking for investment from myself or access to my investors are typically raising between 100 ,000 and 200 ,000 and when I actually ask them why, why are you raising this money nine times out of tenets to prove this idea that I've got in my head when they could actually go and prove the idea that they've got in the head without the 200 ,000 pounds or without the 100 ,000 pounds, they could create a Facebook group or they could create a Twitter account and just prove the need.

[187] And then it's a different scenario which is, look, I've already demonstrated the need and now just need capital to make this happen so here's the thing so um you start and i my first company was like a tech company very very interesting a lot of the sort of parallels between it because i realized the need was there um one of the ways i i realized the need was there was when we created a facebook group that did the same thing it was so active it was so active in fact that i knew that if this facebook group um was a website and i owned it it would probably be worth hundreds of millions of pounds at scale so if we took it to more universities Facebook group was just from Manchester so I tried to create the website, didn't work, whatever but one of the things that I learned from running a tech company was that money runs out quick and one of the interesting things is especially when it's like a pre -revenue tech company as a founder you look at the bank account and you know it's like an hourglass the more time that passes the lower this number gets and it's almost in some respects like a bit of a runway this aircraft has got to take off before the end of the runway and if it doesn't it falls off the fucking runway investment what it does is it extends the runway the length of the runway but because it increases the overheads it increases the speed of the aircraft so the aircraft's now just going faster down the fucking runway there's more overheads right so how does that feel as a tech founder dealing with that like constant ticking down of the bank balance how have you dealt with that very very good question Steve and no one asked this question so thank you for asking exactly so first of all in the first year it's it's terrifying you know you you're on you think you're on to something um you've now brought these people in they've bought into the vision you've convinced people who have got families and dependents to come and join this operation and come and you know join this vision but you also know that it's part of your strategy to actually make an impact in the industry by going in with this different monetization model.

[188] So, you know, for people that don't understand vibe is that not only is our offering different as a product, but our commercial model is different as well to the industry, which is we completely separate ourselves from resale.

[189] We're offering a different alternative.

[190] So, yeah, you know, the first year for me was turbulent.

[191] It was so hard to get in my head that I'm going to have to keep going out and raising capital here and trying to pivot and trying to understand where we're going to generate revenue.

[192] And, you know, I sat down and we built a very, very good advisory board and you know a huge influence on that was richard branson without sort of trying to bring him into the story you know he was one that said you've got to look at this bigger picture if this is your game plan you need to make sure that it's part of your strategy and you execute very very well and you met him on um was it virgins pitch to rich competition so i was down in london um did you win that uh yeah so well no i was actually a finalist right we won one capital but Richard then singled me out and identified me as someone that he wanted to mentor and been to his house several times spent time with him on that and I think he saw what I was trying to do with Vibe as a challenger brand and the world against it And you were doing good one in the world as well which is in line with...

[193] Exactly, you know, we're trying to build something that's right you know, people all the time question vibes model I could tell you right now that if I turned on monetisation tomorrow and charged for this service we would be profitable within six weeks but it's not the right thing to do So we're going about it a different way And, you know, the external pressure is that It's very, very difficult to stay strong To what you're trying to achieve And what the strategy is There was three finalists, we all won cash And then McRieber, the Plastic Roads guy, ended up winning the actual competition But I think he won more cash And some prizes from JC Decor Some of the partners, etc. That is a fantastic business, by the way.

[194] Toby's a brilliant founder, so he was definitely a deserved winner And he is making a global impact to plastic so fair play to him um but yeah the following day richard invited me his house i think he just liked vibe and and it was at that point where richard branson said to me look look look vibe isn't a ticketing business don't think of it as a ticketing business you're in the business of connecting people and data is your currency right and that's when things click for me which is okay how i've been packaging vibe how i've been selling vibe how i've been trying to convince people, it has to change.

[195] Vibe is about removing those barriers and it's about challenging any company that deliberately positions itself to exploit the customer.

[196] That's where Vibe can go as a brand.

[197] And that really started to excite me, but also the investors that I'd previously visited, which was, look, you've been thinking about Vibe as a ticketing business.

[198] The industry is very, very competitive.

[199] It's going to be difficult to demonstrate a model that's going to work.

[200] How about looking at this from this position?

[201] And that's when the real cash started coming in.

[202] But how is it?

[203] So I go back to the question, like how is it being a tech founder who is presumably always raising money?

[204] Like, even when you raise, you close the raise, you have to then basically start thinking about the next raising thing, right?

[205] Yeah.

[206] So what is it, what I'm trying to get at is like, I understand from my perspective what it's like, especially as a startup, in our first year, our bank account just went one way, right?

[207] But what is, what does that feel like on a day -to -day basis?

[208] How does that impact your life?

[209] you know do you come to peace with the idea that as i said i think you need to you need to accept that this this is the strategy and this is what we're playing for and you do it right you know the model that vibes doing isn't new what impact does it had on you though it's very very stressful and um but you've got to take that burden on as a founder i think how has it changed you on a personal level how is luke different because of those things now than he was three years ago wow that's a really good question um this is what we're going to do on this podcast by the way Yeah, no, that's a really good question and some of those ever answered that and that's probably because you're a founder.

[210] So I think it's made me...

[211] Vib's been in positions where, you know, we've got 20 -odd staff, there's 80K about to go in and way, you know, whatever, and we won't go into details, but the burn rates, you know, chugging on, you've got three days of capital left and it's like you've got investors there and they're riding on their investors.

[212] You know, they're waiting to get to a point where it's best to negotiate their position.

[213] Of course.

[214] But you become, hardened to it and I think you then start understanding things from a different perspective and what you've got to do is you've got to take the emotion out of it and you've got to take the, these guys are trying to screw me or you've got to take the emotion out of I'm really worried about everything else you've got to go look this is the product this is how we're doing things this is why we're so successful and the alternative is turn on monetisation and slow growth or turn on monetisation and go out against everything you've said and force something stick true to what you have and it'll come good and that's the only advice I can sort of give to people that are embarking on it.

[215] first two years what was your worst moment your toughest moment let's say the moment you thought maybe not the toughest moment for you but the moment which most people would consider the toughest so for us it was probably when one day on in on the way to work 6 a .m. in the morning we get hacked and someone emails all of our clients really personal abusive things we lose all of our clients there's 70 people here they lose all their clients so we know we've got no money but and the sort of cherry on the top of that kick was that it was our team building day so everyone was on their way to paintballing we'd pulled up at paintballing, on my way there at 6am, I started getting calls.

[216] Our investors have received personal abuse from our email address.

[217] That's insane.

[218] And getting there and having to tell the whole company to turn around, we're going home, and we're going back to the office, there's no clients there.

[219] Them all wearing their like track suits and stuff, are sitting on the desks.

[220] Them seeing me in the glass room, like, on the phone to these brands, trying to save it, I'm a fucking bullshit.

[221] What was your toughest moment in the first two years?

[222] Probably, well, it's happened over the course of it, but I think the hardest thing for me has been thinking that something was when it wasn't.

[223] And what I mean by that is, is quite publicly, recently there's been a situation with vibe where I was backed into a corner by someone who was my mentor, someone who did write my first investment check.

[224] And, you know, I signed my first shareholders agreement age 20, raised this capital, and at the time, didn't take independent legal advice.

[225] And throughout that period, I've thought that something was, that it wasn't.

[226] So let's give that context then.

[227] So recently in the press, as some people would have seen, there was a story.

[228] The headline is Vibe Tickets Go, vibe tickets goes into administration bought back by the founder.

[229] Yeah.

[230] So you're well known for raising from the crowd.

[231] Yeah.

[232] So I'm not familiar with the process completely, but from what I understand that this is a platform, I think it's CrowdCube?

[233] Yes, we use CrowdCube once, yeah.

[234] So are you going to have to correct me all these things?

[235] Just from the external perception, it's quite good to start there with the, with the ignorance.

[236] You raised on CrowdCube, you raised from other investors as well.

[237] The business goes under, this is just a public perception based on press.

[238] It says Luke Massey has bought the business back.

[239] People are annoyed because they think the people that invested have been burnt and then you've just bought the business back.

[240] Yes.

[241] What's the truth?

[242] So basically what happened was we had a sort of very difficult structure in the old company.

[243] And again, touching on that and without going into the specifics of the details but we had a very very restrictive shareholders agreement which meant that I couldn't take on new capital or I couldn't take on new debt without investor direct to consent which meant I constantly had to go back to a person to get to get their consent to do something and it got to a stage where again come you know we had agreement on the table for more capital to come in and you know there was a situation that was engineered which meant it was favourable to that one person who was holding the cards and it actually got to a point where the rest of the investors said, well, we're not continuing to invest in this vehicle unless some of these documents are changed.

[244] And it then forced vibe into position where the company ran out of capital.

[245] The company ran out of cash, which meant it was insolvent.

[246] And for those that don't understand that process, it means that once a company is declared insolvent, it means that as a director, I have a duty by law, to think of creditors first, not shareholders.

[247] And that was very, very difficult, considering that I was the biggest shareholder and I was also one of the biggest creditors, having put my directors loan it in the beginning and you know people don't understand that so um i had to take the correct legal advice and i had to take the correct independent insolvency advice and it was it was told to me look if this company doesn't get um capital very very quickly you know the company's going to go under so i went back to the the shareholder base and asked for some short -term capital until i could get this deal over the line and the money wasn't forthcoming which meant that i had no other option so the company was placed into our administration and i wasn't willing to give up on this there was no way.

[248] So I frantically ran around, put some money together and put a bid together to the independent values of the business to say, look, I'm the founder, I'm willing to take this on.

[249] Here's my offer to the business.

[250] And my offer was conditional.

[251] It makes the decision.

[252] So the insolvenative practitioners, they put an independent value in so they say, okay, we think this business is worth X and take everything into consideration.

[253] And it's, you know, it's a vigorous process and, you know.

[254] Sounds like a fucking nightmare.

[255] It's not, it's absolutely horrible.

[256] It's the most vulnerable I've ever been in my life because I'm now not in control of my own company and it could have easily been taken away from it because of this process and for people to come out in the press to say that this was forced and this was, no one would want to go down that process.

[257] If anyone's been through, never mind at the age I am but no one would want to go down this process.

[258] How does it feel?

[259] I was frustrated, I was angry, I was so close to coming out and saying, you know, you guys don't know what's happened.

[260] I've not even come out and made a public statement yet, but going back to what happened is, you know, My offer was conditional, and I went in with an offer, and my offer was declined, my first offer.

[261] And I was so surprised that I couldn't understand.

[262] Surely I'm the only person that's tried to buy this business.

[263] And it became apparent that the one person that tried putting the company into administration had made a bid for my company.

[264] Now, people can take that however they want, but it then made been a very, very...

[265] Original shareholders who had let the business go under also tried to buy it back.

[266] Not only that, this said person.

[267] actually tried contacting key members of staff prior to it going into that.

[268] Now, this hasn't come out, this hasn't been demonstrated because I don't want to go over the past, but the situation that was portrayed was the fact that the headlines...

[269] Contacting key members of staff as if to say, like, I'm going to buy this business and then I'm going to hire the people and then I'm going to run it myself type of thing.

[270] You could take that, you know, however you want, but...

[271] Yeah, exactly.

[272] You know, that's the fact that people don't know about.

[273] So I've gone in with this offer.

[274] My offer's declined.

[275] I couldn't believe it.

[276] We've had a significantly larger offer, Mr. Massey.

[277] At that point, shit was real.

[278] This is it.

[279] I'm no longer controlling my company.

[280] Someone else is buying it.

[281] What can I do?

[282] So I sold some more personal assets.

[283] I sold some Bitcoin.

[284] I'm ringing around friends that I know, people that I can rely on.

[285] I said, look, I need to get more cash together to buy this business.

[286] I was told that I had two hours to improve my offer.

[287] My script together some more cash and put my offer in.

[288] And my offer was conditional on, A, I took on going concerns of the business, things like Salesforce that are operational to the success of the business, but also that every single member of the staff was moved over.

[289] I didn't make one redundancy because my team was so important to me. The first priority I had to do was to save the company to get the staff.

[290] So that very day, the transaction completed, Luke Massey buys the company back, okay?

[291] That same very day, because of one of my investors was on the stock market, they had to make an announcement to London Stock Exchange, which then all the press got onto it.

[292] and the announcement of the stock exchange was just factual.

[293] The company went into administration, Luke's bought it back.

[294] So the all, not one media outlet in the Northwest rang me for a comment.

[295] They all just printed that the company's going into administration, Luke Massey's bought it back.

[296] That was really disappointing for me because not one of them rung me up to ask for comment.

[297] Now, so this is now spreading around Manchester.

[298] And, you know, the headline was true.

[299] The fact was true.

[300] Luke Massey did buy the company.

[301] I did.

[302] Yeah, okay.

[303] But why and what's going to happen and what's happening next?

[304] was never, never documented.

[305] And you know what?

[306] It shouldn't have been documented.

[307] At the end of the day, this happens, but because I was a public company.

[308] I got to be honest with you, first time I saw the headline, I think someone sent me a screenshot.

[309] I probably got sent it, being honestly, nine times, in a very, and probably in the space about seven days, just like, because you know what, this entrepreneurial community is like, people send stuff around.

[310] And so the first thing I saw was, and I didn't read it properly, because it was just, it was just something, a headline.

[311] The first thing you think, and because I've got like personal experience, of people doing this to screw me as well was that the first thing you think is that the business has been flipped, you've shaken off people and debts and you've started again and screw people.

[312] That's what the headlines portray.

[313] Completely agree.

[314] And anyone, if you saw that for social chain, you'd think the same thing.

[315] Because nobody knows you, your character.

[316] Yeah.

[317] They know the personal brand, they know the tweets, whatever.

[318] They don't know character.

[319] Yeah.

[320] And that's the difficult bit, that public once i like once i read i actually took the time to read some things i uh very quickly realized what what happened and understanding how shareholder agreements are written and the past my own personal past i completely understood yeah and that's why i messaged you just to say look i appreciate that and you know for those listening you know you sent me a text just you know keep your head up luke these things happen you'll share it off and and to get that from a fellow you know in brackets it's entrepreneur, somebody who's going through the challenges that you're going through, that helped me through it.

[321] But, you know, again, it's that, you're talking about character.

[322] I think that heard me the most, which was people are actually questioning your character.

[323] People are coming out and saying that, you know, you're screwing people over.

[324] And this is the thing is, once I'd save the company, and I know, okay, now I'm back in control things.

[325] The first thing I did was pick up the phone to my lawyer and say, I want to give shares back to the crowd out of my own shares, because that's what I was going to do.

[326] That was the right thing.

[327] But before I could even come out and comment, First of all, I had to take the right tax advice because what I didn't want to do was give shares to people and then they would all be, they would all be landed with a tax bill.

[328] So I had to do things correctly.

[329] And, you know, when I could announce it, I was relieved because I was like, look, guys, this is what I was trying to do.

[330] You know, you were all so quick to come out and judge and, you know, they were so quick to write the headlines.

[331] It was just in that moment I learned a lot.

[332] I learned a hell of a lot about how things are set up, how things are perceived, etc. And what people want, you tap and like, I wouldn't like to say that people do want to see you fail but evidence backs that up and that's the thing especially people that are in the local community were trying to champion entrepreneurship that's really really bad you know in the end of the day if this was to happen in the States I guarantee that people would have been sending me very different messages and the press would have been different let's just take this down to the fundamentals and like I genuinely believe I don't know if this is a good thing to say I don't care I think 99 % of human agenda is selfish and regard so when you're winning it's say you start winning and i'm just tom dick and harry watching it's in it's in my um i'm incentivized and it's in my to my advantage to back you agreed to align yourself with that success and then when you fall because you're you're joining me as someone that's not done anything and it's also good and it makes me feel good to watch you fall and to also take the opposite side and say oh that prick you fucking he fucked up have you seen that massive always knew always knew that was going to happen that always happens that's why i'm not doing it you know that's the same it makes me feel good as a bystander to think well you know i wasn't uh inferior to luke in fact in fact luke was never going to succeed so we're all the same here do you know it's that kind of like it's a it's just the way you know people are chameleons and when agendas and motives change they change no exactly and this is the thing you know one of the disappointing things was the sunday times um wrote a piece uh not last sunday the sunday before which was the first page of the business section, which was my face, the image that was used, the image that was used that went on all the billboards because I was the face of VOOM.

[333] And the headline was Branson's, yeah, exactly, Branson's favourite goes under.

[334] Now, first of all, I haven't gone under.

[335] Second of all, I've acquired the business back and things are actually fine.

[336] To the consumer, to a Vibe customer, they would never know what's actually gone on, but because Vibe is such a public business in this area, and because, you know, as you said, we've rightly raised capital, it was blown up.

[337] But for that to be such a personal headline that was that was aimed at me that's me that's not the viable limit I mean bearing in mind were separate entities you know that was that was quite hard but it was a lesson it was a huge lesson for me and I can't wait for the day that we get to that stage where that report is asking for comment and I can go no would you I don't think I'd give him a comment no because he's betrayed me to be something that I'm not and you know where was you where was my comment when you asked what was going on because what he could have done this is a real talking issue here is what he could have done is taking what's happened painted a picture of what's happened but then asked what I would have done differently because this is an interesting story for the startup scene which is not just from the founder perspective but also from the investor perspective because this could happen if you're too restricted this could happen if you force you're in founder into a corner we'll find ourselves we have to so there's lessons to be learned here from founders which is make sure you get independent legal advice and again I don't want to go over the same points because it is what it is can make your own judgments on it at the end of the day vibes now looking forward and it's a positive road for us I really want to go back to that point about that reporter that reporter calls you vibes fucking taken everywhere the world I work for vibe fucking everyone works for vibe right he calls you says Luke can I have a comment I honestly believe in that moment you should say to him 100 % yeah because that is that is if you walk around with that grudge and that resentment to somebody who made a decision based on his own bullshit defect and whatever his own agendas to make money and just to capitalize on a headline and get clicks or whatever if you walk around with that grudge to that person I think you're losing still.

[338] Yeah, no, and do you know what?

[339] I think because it's still raw.

[340] Because it's still raw.

[341] Because it's still raw.

[342] You're human.

[343] This is actually the first time I spoke about it.

[344] You know, I've made comments in, I came out, set the record straight I'm giving my shares back to the crowd.

[345] Since then, I've not said anything.

[346] I've just cracked on.

[347] Forgive all these fuckers.

[348] Do you know, and that's the, I've not said anything.

[349] And I've got a business to focus on.

[350] I've got an incredible team.

[351] I've got an incredible opportunity here with the business.

[352] I've got super, super supportive investors that have not just backed me, but they've backed me through this whole process as well.

[353] And, you know, they're confident that I'm going to come through this as a stronger leader, but also vibe is going to come through with this as a stronger, stronger business.

[354] And I generally do hope that in two, three years time I look back and when people say, what was the turning point?

[355] It was this.

[356] It was, I had to, you know, had to shake off that negative toxic cap.

[357] You know, the last six months of my life have been managing the investors, not managing the business.

[358] It became a business.

[359] It became a business itself.

[360] And this is the problem.

[361] And, you know, I've learned from that at the end of the day, naivety, you know, one of the comments that was on LinkedIn was Luke's younger naive because he's not come out and said something.

[362] Okay, fine, you can be entitled to that opinion.

[363] I was young and naive at 20, signing a shareholds agreement, which pretty much meant that I couldn't make the decisions on behalf of the company.

[364] The other thing is that, you know, that sharehold's agreement was never challenged at any investment round I've ever been through, including the crowd cube round, who have their own lawyers looking at things.

[365] So I, no alarm bell was ever raised for me that something's wrong here until the final raise when the company's running out of capital.

[366] What did it, what did it feel like to go on the internet, log in and see someone you don't know talking shit about you?

[367] Really tough, but not because of the talking shit about me. What was the worst thing you read?

[368] Luke Massey had this planned all along.

[369] Really?

[370] As if this is like premeditated, I want to screw people.

[371] That is ridiculous.

[372] Burning Matt, everyone's been giving shares back.

[373] you know that's that's it um you know apart from the guy that puts in the position anyway and the very small few that were following him so to have that it was difficult i mean it was new ground it was new territory for me because i've always been portrayed in in the media as a good good guy doing the right things the right time and and then when it when it was you know and that's does it not cut so the thing is the reason why that headline was written by the sunday times is presumably because you're as a brand being and vibe is big and vibe going under is not really a big as big a story as you know connecting it to someone as big as Richard and then connecting it to yourself like part of the the danger I guess of building a personal brand where you're known as much as just as much as your business is known is when you do when things do go bad you'll be fucking dragged into the pits if nobody knew Luke Massey as an entrepreneur there would be fucking no story there really there would really not be a story there.

[374] But if you think what people like is they like the rise and the fall, they like to cover the Whitney Houston going to the top and then the Michael Jackson falling, you know, that's, do you know what I mean?

[375] Yeah.

[376] So it comes with, it's one of the real dangers and one of the things I'm quite scared about.

[377] I'm genuinely scared about with entrepreneurs building their personal brands is you will rise big.

[378] And I've seen this in entrepreneurs that I followed.

[379] You'll rise big and you'll rise young and you'll be clapped all the way up right and then they're waiting the same motherfuckers are waiting to boo when anything goes wrong and i've seen friends time after time their companies go up and then down and then uh and the impact it's had on some of them and it's really fucking tough like mental health issues like especially the real young ones i'm not talking about you because you're you're much more mature now aren't old compared to some of these young men's kids i'm talking about 18 year olds and i've literally got message from 18 year old kids asking me how they're meant to deal with this when they've gone burst.

[380] Yeah.

[381] But this is what I'm saying, you know, and hopefully the process I've been for it, I'd like to shed some positive loud on it, you know, which is lessons will learn.

[382] And if I can pass that on to the next, you know, young founder who's raising some capital who might not have the resources or the money to get the correct legal advice, I could just maybe point him, look out for this, look out for Dragon Tag, look out for these points.

[383] Three things then.

[384] Yeah, three things.

[385] I'm 18 years old.

[386] I'm, Luke, I'm an entrepreneur.

[387] Yeah.

[388] I'm wanting to start a business.

[389] Correct accountant that can give you the correct advice.

[390] Okay, so that's number one.

[391] Correct lawyer.

[392] Right, me too.

[393] In fact, no, number one would be a co -founder.

[394] Because you'll know with Dom.

[395] If you have someone who can share that burden, someone...

[396] I didn't even think about that.

[397] It's ridiculous.

[398] Like, a co -founder, someone who you can...

[399] You're in the pub with, things are down.

[400] Because no one is such a lonely place.

[401] It is such a lonely place.

[402] And if I have a co -founder, I can go, what about this, what about this?

[403] It's not on a non -other than...

[404] It is real context.

[405] So even me and you now, we can...

[406] talk about our issues and our challenges and there might be the same issue but in different context so the advice that I give you might work for vibe but it might not work for social chat and vice versa you know and it then becomes familiarized um advice so your text to me was brilliant but in context it wasn't if that makes sense which is look at you well that's really hard to see when people are writing about me you don't mean it's like but what you're saying is right and and I think having a co -founder to share that responsibility because it's sanity as well which is what I think it would be even 20 times harder if he was the only founder and you've no one to bounce that off so first of all you can get sucked into the bullshit that can become your your reference point I see that really bad like I see founders coming to me going look I've actually got this it's worth you know we're touching a million now in revenue what's the next step and I say go and find a co -fant like even with three years in I don't care like go and find the guy that you can show it but it's worth 5 % 10 % 20 % equity believe me in the long run like go and find that guy go and find that girl you know and and also co -founders need to understand what they're getting into as well which is so many people talk about their confounder and the co -founders have no value no value whatsoever and and that's that's another thing that's interesting we're having a conversation before this and you know that does happen so yeah get a co -founder get the right documents in place from a legal point of view even between you and your co -founder it's like going into a relationship and and having a mortgage or whatever it is is like set the foundations right from day one because the only purpose of a contract is for when things go wrong, and shit will go wrong.

[407] And the crazy thing is, especially when you're young, you're so eager to just give it a fucking go that you don't want to spend so much, you just want to get the fucking money in and the thing putting the drone of contract signed, and you think from here on in, we're just going to build a billion dollar company, I'm going to retire with a fucking jet, everything's going to go fine, whenever you're going to need to look at that contract again.

[408] But I'm yet to run a business.

[409] I'm yet to run a business.

[410] I've probably raised investment in some way, maybe 13 times and the contract every single raise I've looked it and thought oh god I wish I'd done something differently yeah exactly especially the first couple the first investment I thought I fucked myself insane isn't it yeah like when this all came to I looked at it I was like look to my current investors are amazing yeah no exactly but I mean I looked at these I was like Lou you sign that that's mad like seriously but you didn't know better no but this what I'm trying to say and people this is what the press could have run this this press could look this is up and Luke's come through it he's managed the process let's put that behind us not a story no i know but no one's getting clicks for that yeah exactly he's managed the process it's richard branson's favorite's gone under it's just it's not doesn't make it right and this is why i don't take it all so personally um and uh i know those same people that are going to fucking tear me down are the ones that are going to build me up you know how how are you going like for those listeners how are you going about mitigating that you know are you going into every situation analyzing or you just going and fuck it, why not, like, you know, to a certain extent?

[411] Or you're going, do you know what, is this a correct use of my attack?

[412] Is this correct for what I'm trying to get across?

[413] And could this be misconstrued?

[414] Give me a more specific example.

[415] So you took it, so you get invited on to go on to TV.

[416] How do you value that?

[417] So how do I make the decisions?

[418] Yes.

[419] So been asked to go on loads of TV shows.

[420] If you ask my team or you ask anyone in the company, we've been, MTV, have asked me to go on a show called How I Got Rich.

[421] And I look at what they want me to do.

[422] And it's, you go on a helicopter, show you're, Rolexes.

[423] No, fuck you.

[424] I probably had that exact offer with the title change 10 times.

[425] No, fuck you.

[426] I'm looking for things that will bring value in some respect to things I care about.

[427] There's two things I care about.

[428] Do you not think there's a responsibility as the next, exactly.

[429] There's a responsibility of people that are following you and following your brand, expect something.

[430] And for you to go and do that is potentially wrong.

[431] 18 year old Steve Bartlett wrote in his diary.

[432] I want to be a millionaire before I'm 25.

[433] I want to range over to be my first car.

[434] I want to work on my body image.

[435] and the fourth one was I want to have a long -time girlfriend, long story.

[436] I did all four of those things, but upon doing those things, I realized that those weren't the things that are going to give me happiness and fulfillment.

[437] So at that point, when I was 25 years old, and I looked at my diary, how do you explain that to an 18 -year -old?

[438] So this is what I mean.

[439] So I get there, I realize that money and stuff aren't going to do it for me, and I look back down the age ladder, let's call it, and I see 18 -year -olds and 19 -year -olds, they're looking at footballers and they're looking at all these things.

[440] I don't want those fuckers to make the same mistake I did Do you think that's an influencer issue?

[441] I talk about, I talk about on every channel on this podcast, every single fucking episode about how...

[442] Stop thinking that something is it, smoke and mirrors.

[443] Yeah, stop chasing after pleasure thinking it's happiness.

[444] Because there's this thing called the head and his to treadmill which is when you chase the Lamborghini, you get a Lamborghini, I've sat my friend's Lamborghinis a week later, they don't like their Lamborghinis anymore because you adapt and then you're looking to the next thing.

[445] And they probably sold things like their name and morals to get it as quick.

[446] possible and so my thing is I'm never going to get there ever I'm never going to get to this place there's not a destination is there no so so I have to create a life um where I'm already there in every sense of the word I've got enough now I'm happy enough now if I died today I've done enough I've been nice and all those things so I'm stopped I've stopped pinning my fulfillment on a future extrinsic goal of getting something or achieving something and I've I've built my life to where I want it to be sustainable now I want to speak to my mom more I want to give to charity now I'm not trying to cut down the rainforest and then donate to the fucking the rainforest.

[447] I'm going to build a business which within the rainforest that helps the rainforest, you know.

[448] So it's just a change in my perspective and I share that perspective.

[449] I don't share my car with, I don't share what I'm, you know, I don't share how I travel or the, the nicer things.

[450] I try not to share the extravagant things because I don't want to trick anyone into thinking that matters.

[451] Yeah.

[452] It's a journey I've been on.

[453] It's an interesting thing.

[454] I would want to ask you as well is what's your, um, what's your, what's your, what's your, your relationship, I probably tainted this answer, but what's your relationship and motives when it comes to money?

[455] What do you want from money?

[456] Security.

[457] So I think one thing that I've craved throughout my life is security, you know, knowing that I can look after my mum.

[458] And that's it.

[459] As long as there's a level of security, I think, looking after my family, I think, you know, and not just security, but even down to my day -to -day decisions.

[460] And, you know, I'm a long -term relationship.

[461] I've got a stable relationship.

[462] And that's something.

[463] that I've craved from a young age, which is, you know, I was the old, you know, eldest, I was looking after my brothers and sisters.

[464] I was trying to add stability ever since I was younger.

[465] I was the one, you know, trying to support my mum through tough times.

[466] So I think that stability is, is a massive thing for me because I, as an entrepreneur to want stability is quite insane because even as we operate, stability isn't the best for it.

[467] Yeah, exactly.

[468] So my life in terms of vibe, in terms of how I approach things, is so one process.

[469] It's, you know, to a certain extent, it's like the creative mind.

[470] And then I go home and Luke Massey at home is stable you know craves that thing I go home I still you know look go and see my mom frequently do the the food shop with her that sort of thing and that I think is how I've been able to sort of stay you know grounded to a certain extent not that I've gone on and achieve things that I want to yet but I think it just puts perspective on things I still go into you know the ingle labour club in Preston where it's two pound of pint and people playing darts a bleeper pool that that's Friday night you know and that's because that's who I that's where I'm from you know you talked about um going home to your partner.

[471] Yep.

[472] What's the deal that she's your girlfriend?

[473] Yes, so Frankie, I've been with Frankie since I was 20 years old.

[474] Christ, you know, really good girl.

[475] Again, brought stability.

[476] She, you know, she's got her own business.

[477] Her life is busy as well.

[478] She's got her own beauty salon.

[479] Does she understand?

[480] Yes, I think she understands the...

[481] Does she understand?

[482] I don't know.

[483] I think she understands business to work.

[484] Yeah, it's tough.

[485] It is tough.

[486] Because she'll come to me with her problems.

[487] I'm like, that is your problem.

[488] Like, let me explain the real problem But it's so funny Every time I ask that question to an entrepreneur It's the exact same response I say, you've got a partner Does she understand?

[489] They go, yeah, she has, does she understand?

[490] They go, no, she fucking doesn't it?

[491] Nice, no, she's what, she's, she's really smart She's doing, yeah, she's gonna listen to this So, no, she's like, no, but, no, but, like my, so I'll just, because, you know, I got, I got, anyone's going to, If anyone's listening to this and single, just at Steve, right, quick.

[492] So my thing is, I, I have got to understand that they'll never really understand and I will cause immense friction trying to get them to understand.

[493] That's a tweet rather.

[494] That's a tweet.

[495] Like I will, in my past relationships I've caused such immense friction by trying to get them to understand this thing that I can't even use words to explain.

[496] Yeah, yeah.

[497] I can say it's really fucking hot.

[498] You don't know what's hot.

[499] You're using your reference point of what hard means to you.

[500] That's the thing you go back home and tease on the table and it's like, do I even bother?

[501] What do you mean?

[502] Yeah, what?

[503] Do I even bother telling you?

[504] How do I explain that?

[505] You know, it's, yeah it is insane but the same time if i was to ask and i do what's your problem is it's like well this girl came in and wasn't happy with this or what you know it's i can't even relate to that it's a relative yeah exactly exactly so you know for me it's um yeah it's that stability and it's you know without getting the violin or anything but when i was growing up i never had a proper like christmas that you know everyone was around the table and then you know i found this girl and i'd go around to her house and that was the family you know and i felt myself well this this is what i wanted um they say behind every great man is a great you know woman or they say behind every great woman i'm sure i'm sure it's you know it's it's one of those it's the end of the day i think it works for me stability you know at home uh in home life i think then it gives you that rock so when you are going through these turbulent times you've got that other person that's going yeah but look so what you know it's like and then you've said you've got to then live in the moment and reflect and go do you know what look where I actually am what's the worst that can happen I go back to living in a council estate I've come from I've come from that that's fine we'll go back and my mate's still it it's not a problem you know you're not scared of the bottom because you're cool there that's what I'm saying it's like you know just go for it sort of thing but I notice in your bio it says giving it a real go that's all I'm doing yeah like people say to me that is all I'm doing and I might fail and fine but I tell you what I'm going to just keep learning keep giving it a go why Why is it worth trying?

[506] Why don't you just go get a job at, you know, somewhere nice and comfy with no fucking stress.

[507] You can clock off at six.

[508] You can just chill out, you know.

[509] You'll know how much money's coming and you don't have to fucking worry about any bank balances or anything.

[510] Nice cushy life.

[511] You'll go and go holidays every quarter.

[512] Yeah.

[513] And, you know, a lot of my friends in stable jobs and stable relationships have that.

[514] And I don't think there's anything wrong with that because I don't think everyone is born to do this.

[515] For me, I think it's, um, again, I, I think it's, um, again, I, All I've ever done in my life is that's why.

[516] And I think what I'd do if I did that is, I'd be asking myself every single morning, why?

[517] Why am I going and doing this?

[518] And I'd then probably get to the answer, which is it's giving me money or it's allowing me to go on that holiday.

[519] So then I'd say to myself, well, how could I do that anywhere by doing something I wanted?

[520] And I'd always keep coming around back at that same question.

[521] It'd probably come back to freedom, being able to live life on my own terms.

[522] You know, however I do things might not be the right way, but I'm going to give it a go in Luke Massey's way.

[523] But think about this, Luke.

[524] all this fucking pain, all this stress, all this bullshit.

[525] You're asking me a question that you don't know the answer to, so...

[526] No, I know the answer.

[527] I know the answer to it.

[528] You do know the answer to it?

[529] So I know, like, why I tolerate all the bullshit?

[530] So why do you tolerate bullshit?

[531] Because there is no other fucking version of Steve Bartlett.

[532] There is no other...

[533] There's no other version.

[534] So it's not for me, it's not even a choice.

[535] It's, I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying, and...

[536] If you could ask a guy who's in a stable job on 70K and ass all, is all about alternatives, right?

[537] So it's all about alternatives.

[538] would I rather be in a cushy middle ground somewhere earning stable checks and just, you know, coasting through life, you know, not really challenging myself, or would I rather take the risk and go for it?

[539] I'm someone that is so deeply connected to my own mortality.

[540] Like the way that, the big, one of the big things I say to people when they're trying to figure out how they should live their lives, right, is, you know, there's an expression, live every day as if it's your last, bullshit.

[541] Do not do that.

[542] That's fucking terrible advice.

[543] If you you lived every day as if it was your last, you would definitely have an addiction.

[544] What if this was an hourglass, this can of whatever it is here?

[545] And I put it on your desk, right?

[546] And it poured down how many days you had left, 40 days, right?

[547] Would you be, ask yourself this?

[548] Would you, A, be holding the grudges you had right now?

[549] Would you be doing the thing you do every day when you wake up at 7 o 'clock in the morning and leave at 7 o 'clock at night?

[550] If you could see the sand pouring out of the hourglass into the bottom and you say it had 50 years I think people would live a completely different life I think they would take more risks I think they would forgive easier this is why I was talking about forgiving that guy do think people scared though do you think people scared of right well I've got this is my comfort zone here's the great thing yeah this is the great thing with the hourglass it tells you where you're going to end up regardless you're going to die like it's the real it's the great this is reality deal with like no matter what so what's the the thing to be most scared of I think in probably life is death right so people are oh scared that they might not be able to pay the bill you're going to die that's the the most scariest thing is going to happen yeah and Steve jobs he was he really inspired me with his commencement speech where he said like you're already naked and understanding that I'm going to die has given me all of the fearlessness to go for it regardless all of these fuckers writing about you they're going to die too yeah they're all going to be fucking forgotten every and and also one of the things that's really liberated me is really believing that I'm really not special that I'm insignificant to the world I don't matter and therefore all of my problems and my shit doesn't really matter anyway it's a game I've got this hourglass on my desk.

[551] The sand is pouring.

[552] I'm just going to use my time as however I want.

[553] I'm going to forgive people.

[554] I'm not going to do petty things.

[555] I'm not going to worry about what people think about my hair.

[556] If they want to talk shit about me on my deathbed, and this is like what I call deathbed thinking, which is the book I've been talking about a lot, is, am I going to care about Jenny that doesn't know me, tweeting me telling me I'm a fucking idiot, which happens probably 10 times a day.

[557] I'm not going to care about my mom and what I did and how good I was.

[558] And so trying to live my life now, If I'm on my deathbed and that hourglass is ticking away has given me, why would the fuck would I go do that call centre job I did for 12 hours a day if the aisle glass was there?

[559] Yeah.

[560] Making money to pay the bills for me has never been, never made any sense.

[561] Well, I think that's what I mean by the why, isn't it?

[562] It's like questioning that why.

[563] Imagine just paying the bills till you die.

[564] Well, that happens, didn't it?

[565] Like, that does.

[566] You know what I mean?

[567] People are cool with that and that's the thing.

[568] They're cool with that.

[569] By the way, there's nothing wrong with people in cost of this.

[570] No, listen, there is, the thing that it's wrong for everybody to do is do some shit for the rest of your life where you tolerate some stuff you hate definitely I couldn't agree more if you love being a fucking school teacher love it amazing you are you're more successful then well that that scenario is if you wasn't being paid for this would you still do it 100 % that's the question I ask people I did it for two years without being paid I was a kid at Mossside like you're trying to build a business shoplifting food like trying to you know and the money hasn't hasn't impacted me in any way no it's good to see it is good to see and I think there's a lot of people that follow you and are influenced by you and you know I'm not just because I'm sattie but I think you are some that people should listen to and be influenced by the correct influence and you know Love Island starts next week and people are influenced by the wrong things definitely and I think you're in that position now where you are paying back even this podcast I think you know you're spending your time now I'm spending our time now trying to give back and I think that's that's important and the journeys that I've been up front even the last six months, I think it's really important because if you can just help that one person you would tell me about another business that you've been involved in it, it was someone that was actually part of your competition.

[571] I mean, that's just insane.

[572] I want to take it back to that thing you said.

[573] So, you said you know, why don't you just go get like the middle ground you know, whatever?

[574] Something, you know, that's comfortable.

[575] Why doesn't Luke Massey go do the comfortable thing?

[576] I don't know, I'm trying to find it.

[577] It sounds to me like you've had a lot of time to think about this because you've probably been asked it a lot more than me. is the first time being asked it, and I probably don't really have the straight answer to it.

[578] I think for me it's...

[579] What is making Luke Massey?

[580] What's driving him?

[581] What's driving him?

[582] I'm talking in third person, but like, what's...

[583] Oh, this is another hard question.

[584] I don't know.

[585] I don't know.

[586] I think what was driving me to get up and do the milk round when I was 13 years old?

[587] I don't know.

[588] I think for me, it's settling or thinking that you're there, or I don't know.

[589] It's such a tough one.

[590] I think for me it's just an internal drive and...

[591] What do you want your life to look like?

[592] Say it in 10 years time, what does your...

[593] Let's say 20 years time.

[594] What does your life look like?

[595] I can't see it.

[596] You can't see it?

[597] That's what probably scares me. That's probably what drives me. And it's not that enough is enough for me. It's that because I crave stability all my life.

[598] It's probably getting to that place where even if this failed or even if this failed, everything would be fine.

[599] And I don't know whether I'll ever get to that stage like you're saying.

[600] And maybe you're a year ahead on that.

[601] Do you know what I think as well?

[602] I think because I think we're still both learning.

[603] You know, you're learning.

[604] You know, I'm learning.

[605] and it's we're on this cycle and this is the thing and you know it's our duty to pass it on just as we're getting passed on information I think it is this is my observation from like this conversation I think you're right in the sense that I've gone a little bit further down the cycle because of the types of issues I'm dealing with so I'm you're like you're dealing as you said you spent the last how many months dealing with like investor stuff yeah like I've I'm spending less of my time dealing with that kind of thing and when you're dealing with investor stuff like raising it's every waking hour of the day and it's urgent and it's so important so you don't have the head space to think a little bit agreed and i think i need to put you know fast forward a couple of months i've got some key staff coming into business for me it's just stepping back operationally even if it's just for getting you know the head out of the clouds and just seeing things from a different perspective i think will help things and i think that's what it is so i think i just had because there's managing directors running the business i think i've had a lot of thinking time.

[606] And I remember key moments when one real moment which made me think about why the fuck I'm doing what I do every day was that when we got a real offer to buy the business from a very big media company.

[607] Like there's a billion dollar, I had probably a hundred billion dollar media company.

[608] And I went home that night as a 24 year old.

[609] And I thought, okay, so if I sell and I accept this offer, then what do I do?

[610] And that was the moment where you start to really realize like, what would the money do for me versus taking this purpose from me?

[611] And then really, you know, thinking, what would I do tomorrow?

[612] Would I start another business?

[613] Do I could just spend the money?

[614] Do I want more money?

[615] Realising that, you know, like the motive for me to get loads more money really isn't the thing.

[616] So why am I doing it then?

[617] Because 18 -year -old Steve, when he started and he wrote it in his diary, it was all money.

[618] Okay, so last question.

[619] Dinner table.

[620] There are six seats.

[621] You're sitting in one of them.

[622] I'm sitting in the other.

[623] I get to cook.

[624] There are four other seats.

[625] dead or alive you can invite anybody to this dinner party who'd you invite to the table and why you were these questions who are the first people that popped to mind mum fine nice even if she won't understand it it's really interesting that you'd bring her it says a lot about you as well I think even though she won't understand it or that there's other people even if there was the most famous guy in the world there but yeah my mum on that I'm going to dive a slightly there so your mum has been this incredibly important influence in your life as you've explained and everything you've said has kind of touched back to that in those in those tough moments where people are talking shit and you know that they're and you know from your mom's perspective those are people talking shit about her son is that one of the things that really gets to you the most no because i protect her from it she doesn't know no she doesn't see that i mean what about your girlfriend mom doesn't have uh because she can see yeah my girlfriend sees it i think but she knows the truth yeah and she's extremely supportive and And she knows that I'm...

[626] My actions have always said who I am.

[627] So she knows you.

[628] Yeah, exactly.

[629] And how I go about things there today, how I support things, you know.

[630] Anyone who knows me, even without seeing those headlines, sent me a message because they know me as a character.

[631] You know, they know, whatever's gone on, Luke, don't really need to know the detail.

[632] It'll be cool.

[633] You know, that's the sort of thing.

[634] Yeah, they know me. And it's...

[635] So, yeah, I think it's becoming hard into it and just, you know, disson yourself.

[636] But from my mum's point of view, she doesn't understand what I do and you know my mum is you know she's an alcoholic she's you know she's she's in that place where it's I'm just a son and it doesn't matter what happens I'm still a son and I think she's you know she's happy for me so yeah it's about protecting her and knowing that I think my mum blames a lot of things that have happened in our life down to her especially external circumstances is she hard on herself of well yeah and i think that was you know one of the reasons for turning to alcohol um that was her sort of probably escape and still is to a certain extent but have you dealt with that your whole life yeah exactly yeah definitely so your whole life yeah my whole life so it's for me it's um so when i was young i was very um aggressive towards it you know you could probably tell my character i was confused i was didn't understand why i didn't you know and i was come home and one day you'd get my mum who was up and the house was clean and then some days you'd get my mom's been in bed for three days because she's depressed and she can't face the world and I just couldn't understand it because I didn't suffer from depression and I don't suffer from depression um you know so there was confusion angry as a young lad you're still trying to figure yourself out you're going for you puberty you're growing up etc and there was all this and then and also it which is worth pointing out is you you'll have seen my my personal brand and personal message when i was 17 18 19 and i was you know trying to start this option you know you'd see me in shirts and ties and suits and because i was trying to portray this picture, thinking that I was this, you know, this, like, and it actually got to a stage where I started thinking, do you know what?

[637] What am I hiding from here?

[638] Why am I embarrassed?

[639] This is it.

[640] And it's probably a massive part of my story.

[641] And, you know, it's what drives me. It's who I am.

[642] So why hide from it?

[643] And it started becoming real then.

[644] You know, the Thailand came off and then the shirt came on.

[645] And, you know, and now I'm just cool within myself.

[646] And you talked about depression then.

[647] Yes.

[648] And you said, um, so we live in a world where depression anxiety all these things are both the awareness of them are increasing but the data says that they're increasing as well yeah and in founders and young founders like myself and you we go through so much bullshit yeah right so and also one of our biggest things is um we take on the responsibility of everything that goes on so i'm talking there about protecting my mum from things i make sure i go out of my way to understand to make sure that she doesn't hear the bad things because that would hurt, but you do it for your staff.

[649] You do it for...

[650] You're the umbrella over every time.

[651] You are, so, you know, and yes, sometimes you're in the press and you're in the limelight, and it seems like you're the front man, but guess what?

[652] That is the tip of the iceberg.

[653] And you're dealing with that.

[654] You're dealing with it.

[655] No, but you're dealing with it 24 -7.

[656] When you know...

[657] But everyone's doing it.

[658] Everyone's got their own battles.

[659] Yeah, but I think that's interesting.

[660] Your battles are unique, right?

[661] And they're proportionally bigger, same as, I'm talking about myself as well when I say this, but they're proportionately bigger than, you know, wondering, worrying about what Jenny said about your hair at work like um and you know after this conversation when you look at your phone or your emails there'll probably be some bullshit there for you to deal with you know there's almost i always used to have this kind of like email anxiety especially my when i was yeah yeah you wake up in the morning you don't want to see your email you don't want to see your you know you refresh that there's going to be some fucking bad news because every day there is right um going back to the point about mental health have you suffered with anything um um oh one thing i would say is i'm probably cold in terms of some relationships.

[662] Emotionally, because something bad's coming, something bad's going to happen.

[663] So even from a young age, you become a heart.

[664] So, you know, when my mum had, you know, serious depression when I was younger and, you know, even child service agency nearly came in at one point, it was that bad, is that I protected my brother and sisters.

[665] So I made sure that they knew they were loved and things were fine and mum's just going for a bad time.

[666] So that then, you know, was straight away from an early age.

[667] And, you know, as I said, I think then, every challenge you go through then it just toughens you up and tough the toughening up thing though I mean that's like conducive with this is I'm asking this because I'm interested for me right so I used to think you know I'm tough I'll get I'm hard and you hear these stats about men and you know male suicide and these kinds of things and you think Steve maybe maybe you're not super fucking Superman maybe you too are susceptible to these things and when I think from the age of 18 to 24 building my business I thought no I could never get anything I could nothing mental health issues get over touch with me now I've changed my mind now I think after reading so many books I'm like I need to take care of myself yeah we're probably the most vulnerable when you think about it you know we are because we also convince ourselves that we are immune and we just we close down we don't share as much on the emotional side because we have teams and if you were to ask Frankie my partner she'd probably say that that is the number one issue that she has with me which is I don't tell my problems and then she'll see it and it's like what you've been going through that and it's like well yeah but it's not your issue my wife's girlfriend turned around to me and she said in the car I fucking work I mean I could turn of it she went are you depressed and I wasn't I get are you bipolar because one minute I'm buzzing and I've just done you know done it on fine their next minute my world's changed you're just you're a million miles away sat next to somebody exactly and yeah but that's interesting I think it's just one of the things I'm really again this is being a little bit a little bit further down the path is I'm really focusing on taking care of myself because I now believe So how do you do that mentally so there's a number of things so there's a book I've got to recommend, which I read this week called Lost Connections, and it's all about debunking the idea that mental health issues are anything to do with the chemical imbalance.

[668] And it's not what's wrong with you.

[669] It's what's happened to you.

[670] And it goes to all of these major studies.

[671] It's more environmental rather than natural.

[672] Yeah.

[673] And it goes through all these major studies that prove this.

[674] So it goes through everything from like nature, right?

[675] Nature and us as animals being creatures of a certain.

[676] environment, they show a study where prisoners who face out onto green grass are 25 % less likely to get depressed than prisoners that face out onto concrete.

[677] That's one thing, right?

[678] Then there's other things like you're, we're social animals, we're tribe animals.

[679] That's how we evolved and survived today.

[680] So we've got incredibly lonely in this connected world to the point now where the average American, when they're asked, how many people have you got that you could really count on if you needed to and like depend on and talk to in those moments?

[681] The most popular answer now is zero 15 years ago it was three we're becoming more and more isolated in this like crazy connected world they show all these studies they show that um people who have close friends and family and talk to them and socialize are um significantly significantly less likely to become depressed so i've got a question for you then which is you know if you don't mind me saying off the record prior to this sort of podcast it was you know you were saying to me that you've got very very few friends and you're extremely busy etc and you said you haven't got yeah exactly and you sort I said to yourself, you know, you even said to me and admitted, I feel like I'm a bit of a social recluse.

[682] Now, you read this book and one of the things is that, you know, we're a tribal and we're socialising.

[683] Do you think that that's what you need to do?

[684] Do you think you need to let people, let a few more people into circles?

[685] The romantic relationships bit is exactly linked to that.

[686] So I 100 % do.

[687] I, and this is why, and it doesn't come to me. You have to come to Preston, honestly, you'll find a good girl.

[688] It doesn't come naturally to me, right?

[689] So what I want to do, naturally, is go home tonight and go my laptop.

[690] What, because I've really...

[691] comfort zone that's not you do i think i'm good alone depends what you're searching it you know off 11 at night though don't it it'll be my emails i probably do it um but what i've done tonight is i messaged my friend i said listen i'm doing this podcast and then let's go for a drink he i don't want to do it no he knows that he i've called it i told him on the phone i was like i don't want to i i don't want to see friends he knows i don't want to fucking do it he knows i'm doing it because i now believe that i should do these things it's better for my mental health it's better for my business therefore it makes it's going to make me much happier person in the long term i believe in it so i'm doing things because i believe in them not because they're habit let's say um back to this table but yeah so back to this table um Elon Musk's got to be on there for me yeah there's just there's just a guy that is he's just challenging everything you know he he's a he is for me the entrepreneur disruptor he is something's not right i'm going to do something about it.

[692] And that's it.

[693] And you know what?

[694] He might not get him all right.

[695] But do you know what he's actually done?

[696] He's taken the blueprint of what Richard Branson did and he's made it better, you know, putting that car up into space, doing whatever he's done with.

[697] He's just taken what's already existing and done it better.

[698] That's him.

[699] My thing with Richard Branson, sorry, Elon, the reason why I love him is because he was willing to spend all of his billions from PayPal on fucking electric cars and space travel.

[700] Backing himself again.

[701] That's what it is.

[702] Bigger than him.

[703] He's not trying to make the world exactly he's not an entrepreneur he wants to build a legacy that is trying to get up here he doesn't give a he wants to change the world that's his number one like agenda yeah point i can't say that if i'm being honest with myself i'm not my number one is the reason why he's in that position is because he's he's bought himself that time in that position you know he's bought himself that respect that's why i consider him great yeah exactly because that's what money gives you is that choice so if you if you if you can get social chain and social you know uh group to where you think it can and I can get vibe where I think it can be will them be in position in five, ten years time where we can do things that we want to do and our agenda can change.

[704] So, you know, again, he's got to be on the top of the list for admires, you know, as an entrepreneur.

[705] So my mum, Elon Musk, you're on the table.

[706] Are you on the table, man?

[707] You're not on the table?

[708] I'm cooking already, so I'm...

[709] Right, you're cooking, okay.

[710] Let's go for music, something in music maybe, or like...

[711] Music, got to be Kanye West.

[712] Kanye West.

[713] We're not going to get to eat anything.

[714] Yeah, exactly.

[715] Yeah, he's just outside thinker, rightly or wrongly.

[716] I love him, but I do think he's a bit of a false point.

[717] No, that's what I'm saying, rightly or wrongly.

[718] I think he's a genius, yeah.

[719] Well, they say, don't they, like, you know, about genius and insanity that they're so close together.

[720] And I think he is on there.

[721] But if you are, Elon Musk, Kanye West, my mum.

[722] Wow, that is insane.

[723] Last one.

[724] Stephen Hawking.

[725] interesting Stephen Hawking definitely he left his mark on the world there was a few funny jokes obviously when he passed away but yeah he's he's a genius I mean I've watched his films the two different ones you know the guy was a bit of a player back in the day I know like six or seven different and he was a geek yeah he was the original guy weren't he so yeah Stephen Hawkins Elon Musk Kanye West and my mum how do you want to be remembered I've just stole that from the true Jody it's going to be so mad I don't want to be remembered there's a guy that had morals no as a guy had beliefs and stayed true to it whether it was right or wrong and I want people to know when I've had a discussion with him or they've met me is that everything I've said there and then is actually what he believes you might not agree with it and that's cool I am cool with that but you know where you stand with Luke Massey you know he's honestly speaking from the heart and he's not got an agenda he's not that's who he is you know and i'll give the right feedback at the right time and you know it's not it's just if you're asked me for something i'll give it you and you know honesty and that's why i think because of what's been said in the podcast that's why i've so close to the heart so passionate about it um so yeah i think just being a man of his word amazing on that point um thank you so much for the time thank you really appreciate it pretty late now what time is it super late at night 11 o 'clock so um but i go get some but thank you so much for coming on and people can find you on Twitter and everywhere under Luke Massey everywhere and obviously they can find vibe tickets everywhere so it's been a real pleasure and I'm sure we'll continue these discussions off the mic so thank you.

[726] Great, thanks Steve.