222 - That’s How Water Works

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] This episode is brought to you by Defending Jacob, a new Apple TV Plus limited series based on the New York Times bestseller.

[2] It's a suspenseful character -driven drama starring Chris Evans, Michelle Dockery, and Jaden Martel.

[3] Defending Jacob is available exclusively on Apple TV Plus.

[4] Open the Apple TV app and watch the first two episodes for free today.

[5] We had a chance to talk to the show's screenwriter and director earlier in the week, so stick around to hear that conversation at the end of the episode.

[6] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[7] Longform.

[8] That's Karen Gilgara.

[9] That's Georgia Hard Star.

[10] And we're good at this.

[11] Steven, on the ones and twos.

[12] We're all here.

[13] Everybody.

[14] Everyone is here, meaning their own houses, and they're away from each other.

[15] As far away as possible, we've all moved to the four corners of Los Angeles County.

[16] I live in Boecoima.

[17] Georgia went down to Downey.

[18] Wow.

[19] Stephen went back to his old apartment in...

[20] Elhambra.

[21] Elhambra!

[22] Shout out.

[23] Stephen used to commute in from Alhambra.

[24] I would just be like, dude, is it, is that necessary?

[25] They had a nice target.

[26] And a soup plantation.

[27] RIP.

[28] Oh, RIP.

[29] RIP.

[30] Stephen sent us an article this week, and I was seriously heartbroken that that soup plantation is shutting down.

[31] It's a problematic name.

[32] And so maybe, best case, the name is never going to be resuscitated.

[33] And that's great.

[34] You got to hope.

[35] What made we laughed so hard because we, you know, we talk about soup plantation a lot.

[36] And there used to be one near George's old apartment.

[37] And then Stephen let us know on the text thread that that's where he brought his girlfriend, who's a professional chef on their first date.

[38] He brought her to soup plantation.

[39] That was one of our I love it Classy Stephen And then he sent me back The best GIF Of Mani from modern family drinking out of a little espresso go You can't be out You cannot be in the exactly right Network family If your gift game isn't a fucking A plus It's very competitive And I would say Georgia You're amazing at it And fast But Stephen is like It's because he's so young Yeah It's like you have them at the ready right i pick like the first like when i put in a word i'll pick like the top three one of them but stephen's like deep cut gifts yeah and then of course you saved on my phone yeah you've got the savers you've always got the kim k peeking from around the edge that it just fits everything everything it's perfect it's like the best beige color in the world where it just fits every scenario if you don't know we're talking about she's peeking around the corner maybe we'll put it on the instagram a gift of her peek and it's just it's perfect i feel like we've definitely posted it before.

[40] We talked about this gift a lot.

[41] But like there's a, she's got a look on her face that might be playful and, you know, like she's full of beans, except for that there has actually no expression on her face except for teeth.

[42] So then you're, you can interpret anything.

[43] You can project anything onto Kim Kay's face in that gift.

[44] And I do.

[45] And it works.

[46] And we have.

[47] But then Georgia, there was the time where you had the cartoon guy that looked like it was from like a total 80s cartoon and it was like someone told us we did something good.

[48] I think this might have been an agent thread and you just had this cartoon guy that looked like I was going like noodling like a guy with an electric guitar and I was so jealous like an air jealous like an air jealous like an air guitar going yeah like a nice riff a riff yes perfect like a prideful riff where I had done the very like I'd done one of those Beyonce queen gifts was just expected it's like you can do it that's fine but everyone does those ones but did you know according to vince tell me your secrets according to vince i'm actually really good at our guitar like you're really playing chords and stuff like it's kind of one of our things we're like if i want to make vins laugh i hate telling all our secrets but like do it no i'll do it someday on stage someday when we have a live show when all this is over our first like okay how about i promise our first live show back.

[49] I will do the fucking air guitar.

[50] Yes, please.

[51] What a celebration that's going to be.

[52] You know, it's, I almost tweeted this today because first of all, thank you everybody for all your lovely birthday wishes.

[53] Well, to me, it was horrifying.

[54] It was horrifying and it was Monday.

[55] But I stayed off because like, it's, I think it's very cheesy when people are like, thanks so much to every single person or whatever.

[56] But it was really just so lovely and people said really nice things and it was just cool and then I was going to tweet this morning I was going to be like thank you so much and thank everybody and then say it's just so sad that I can't on tour I can't go out and do my Molly Shannon impression and do the Sally O'Malley kick I'm 50 kicked that's tragedy but then I it's so sad then I realized that would make it look like I was trying to make the people who hadn't sent me a birthday wish like there could be any guilt implication I was like just leave it all alone but I did get sad thinking about how I used to do that on stage and that we don't get to like I know in public anytime soon on the actual day of you being 50 and you've done this on stage you don't get to kick your legs out and yell I'm 50 while Vince brings out of a fucking tray of whatever some really nice person brought us backstage like donuts it's true with a candle in it and then the fire marshal has to follow with it there's I've had it I think either two or three birthdays in a row on the road yeah I mean at least two guys I'm so sick guys we miss you well we have another month until I turn 40 so and then we're just going to go rogue then we don't have birthdays it's our liberty I told Georgia I want to restart the concept of the book club we the last time which was very early in the first year and we tried to get everyone to read V .C. Andrews, my sweet Autrina, which was we respect the legacy.

[57] V .C. Andrews was a legend.

[58] She ruled the 80s.

[59] It was an unreadably bad book.

[60] Absolutely.

[61] It was just strangely dirty, strange.

[62] Yeah.

[63] A lot of incest themes.

[64] Not even the incest, the whole theme was incest.

[65] Yeah.

[66] It wasn't a suggestion.

[67] It was having.

[68] happening on the page.

[69] That's right.

[70] Very odd.

[71] I felt embarrassed that that was my pick.

[72] But lots of people wanted to do it.

[73] And so since we're consuming so much more.

[74] Right.

[75] Um, everything these days.

[76] I say to Georgia, let's resuscitate this thing.

[77] Let's get it back up on its legs and, uh, read a book.

[78] So yeah, we're each going to tell you the book we're currently reading.

[79] And if you feel like joining us, then we can bring it up occasionally and talk about it.

[80] But it's the, it's, again, and podcasting is one -way street.

[81] So we'll tell you what we think about the book and that's about it.

[82] And you'll comment on our Twitter and Instagram how you feel about it.

[83] Yes, exactly.

[84] Which was great.

[85] And then tell us what book we should read next, which is cool.

[86] Completely.

[87] And if you get your comments in and we collect them up in time, we can pretend.

[88] We can read some funny ones.

[89] Yeah, we can have a whole, you know what?

[90] Stephen might be able to bring some book club music up under and maybe sound effects.

[91] Like we're all drinking wine and someone's weird living.

[92] room and talking and actually having a book club.

[93] Let's just work.

[94] We'll work it through.

[95] Let's workshop it.

[96] But here's the book that I'm reading.

[97] What are you reading?

[98] Currently, the reason I got excited about this is, and also I tell my dad, because my dad reads books in like two days on his Kindle.

[99] So I just told him to read this one, so he's going to do it too.

[100] Oh, cool.

[101] Jim.

[102] Right?

[103] Home Jim.

[104] Home Jim.

[105] Involved.

[106] Home Jim involved in the podcast.

[107] I sent him the listener art. Whoever made the the art for home gym Let me find it.

[108] It looks like your dad and there's one photo of him on the entire internet and somehow this person make moody.

[109] It's not too hard.

[110] It's who is it?

[111] Make moody drew this incredible fan art. And it fucking looks like your dad.

[112] It looks like him.

[113] It looks like him laughing too which is my favorite part.

[114] But when I texted that art to him and he was like, what the hell is this?

[115] It took me 10 minutes to explain like how that I was like, dad, I told the story of me asking you what you thought about Britney.

[116] It was a whole thing that he couldn't get through his head because he doesn't understand how they did it that fast.

[117] He doesn't understand why they would care.

[118] He doesn't remember what he said.

[119] He doesn't remember the conversation.

[120] But he was really impressed.

[121] He was really excited.

[122] And then, sorry, sidebar before I tell you the book, he told me this story.

[123] he's getting all the carpet which is so exciting me and my sister are thrilled oh god childhood carpet yes he's pulling up all that old mauve i mean like dinkly mob holy late 80s carpet that has wine stains and sandwiches molly all over it sandwich remains maybe like a little mold by the sliding glass door where the rain came in one time you know it's all pulled up and he put in hardwood floors that's like next level right sprucing up your place I know and and it's like he's you know it's like it was like his project but so it's a father's son team that are putting in these horrible floors and so they're him my dad's talking to the son the younger guy I mean the son's like I think my sister's age but they're standing there talking and he's looking at you know the pictures or whatever and my dad has we when we played Louisville listeners who worked at Louisville slugger bats, you know, Louisville Slugger, the factory.

[124] Yeah.

[125] And they made me, Georgia, and Vince, all our own personalized bats.

[126] No. Did you get the Star Sting?

[127] Sorry, Louisville.

[128] Sorry, everybody.

[129] Stephen, we're going to get you back.

[130] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[131] We're getting you a live bat.

[132] So it's, my dad has it in a glass box mounted on the wall.

[133] Like I, like, your babe Ruth or something, and you're Hit the fucking home run with it.

[134] Oh, my God.

[135] For real.

[136] And this was, you remember when we got those, I called him because I thought he'd be so excited.

[137] Yeah.

[138] And he kept going, where'd you find it?

[139] And I'd be like, God, the people from the place made it.

[140] And I was like so infuriated.

[141] But once he had it in his hand and understood.

[142] Yeah.

[143] It's like, it's etched.

[144] It says my favorite murder.

[145] It's got our logo.

[146] And then it has like a quote in the back.

[147] I think it was all got different quotes.

[148] It's beautiful.

[149] The coolest gift.

[150] So neat.

[151] So.

[152] when he finally saw it, he was thrilled and then he mounted it in the foyer, basically.

[153] Like, it's a sword on the wall.

[154] It's our sword.

[155] But, so they're standing and there talking about the other pictures and then the guy goes, oh, what's this?

[156] Did you get, like, did you buy this bad or whatever?

[157] He goes, no, that's my daughter's podcast.

[158] They gave it to her as a present.

[159] And he looks over and goes, my favorite, I listen to that show.

[160] Shut your mouth.

[161] Yes.

[162] We got, the guy put And the floors is a fan.

[163] Oh, my God.

[164] And he thought that I grew up in Sacramento.

[165] So he didn't, he's from Petaluma, too.

[166] He's known our family.

[167] But I think he assumed I was a cousin or maybe just like, I don't know, or just not related at all.

[168] So he was, his mind was blown.

[169] And so when I sent my dad the home gym art, he goes, oh, I got to, I got to show the floor guy.

[170] He's going to freak out.

[171] Like, now he's, my dad's getting into the whole, the whole culture of it.

[172] I love it.

[173] All of that is to say the book I'm reading right now for Book Club.

[174] It's called Furious Hours, Murder, Fraud, and the Last Trial of Harper Lee.

[175] Oh, I have that in my to read list.

[176] Yes, it's really good.

[177] I think there might be a copy at the office for you where, you know, before.

[178] Where COVID -19 lives.

[179] I know.

[180] Where COVID -19 moved into when we got to.

[181] out.

[182] A chloroxet.

[183] Yeah.

[184] You get it.

[185] Do some Lysol wipes first for Georgia.

[186] But it's, um, the author is Casey SEP, CEP.

[187] And it's so, you know, Harper Lee wrote to kill a mockingbird.

[188] And then she helped, uh, Trima Capote, right, in cold blood and research it and stuff.

[189] And then this was basically, it's about how she came back to her home estate and maybe even a hometown, because I'm, I'm on chapter two, um, to cover this trial that's unbelievable, this criminal trial.

[190] And it's so well written.

[191] It's so fascinating.

[192] I love reading this book.

[193] And it's obviously nonfiction, right?

[194] Which is fun.

[195] That's correct.

[196] Historical.

[197] Nonfiction.

[198] Yeah.

[199] But also historical.

[200] I mean, it's the 70s.

[201] So long ago.

[202] Okay.

[203] That's perfect because I'm reading a, I'm reading like a fiction mystery thriller book.

[204] So like.

[205] So yeah, you get a choice.

[206] Yeah.

[207] But mine's also like murdery and like a whodunit.

[208] thing and it's um it's by this woman who's written like 20 mystery thriller like those books that like we love to read on the beach on vacation hell yeah um by karen slaughter but it's i n karen um slaughter and it's called pretty girls and i can't i'm listening to it on an audiobook i can't stop fucking listening to it and it's got like you know sister themes and it's got like strong female lee like it's and it's about them solving a maybe a murder and like what do we do and our sister got lost and like it's really good I can't stop listening so I don't know how it ends but I'm into it but we're in it yeah all right so if you want to do this with us we're going to put we're going to put together some kind of followable book club process good idea um meet us back here in a week let's see if we had any progress on that let's see if we remember to ever talk about this again come on it'll be fun oh I'd like to thank everyone um thank I want to do a thank you corner.

[209] Everyone who said when I was talking about the bird that wouldn't stop tweeting by my window all night to put owl noises and hawk noises and it would get scared and run away or whatever.

[210] It didn't work, but thank you.

[211] But it has gone away.

[212] And I think maybe that it was mating.

[213] And so now we're going to have probably a bird's nest by our window instead.

[214] And are you going to take your Louisville slugger and knock it out of the tree?

[215] What?

[216] Oh, my God.

[217] Can you imagine?

[218] You take it down off the wall where you mounted it yourself.

[219] Oh, the internet.

[220] The ire of the internet.

[221] Oh.

[222] Cancel.

[223] That's canceled.

[224] It is actually.

[225] You know, it's funny.

[226] I went to get the mail today, which I keep forgetting.

[227] That's a thing I can do.

[228] Like one more thing, a little task.

[229] And it's fun.

[230] I walked out to get the mail.

[231] There was a bird's nest on the ground next the mailbox.

[232] Oh, no. It fell out of the tree, I think.

[233] What did you do?

[234] It was empty.

[235] There was nothing sad.

[236] in it or whatever it was just like a lot of hard work okay that's beautiful don't touch it don't touch it no I did not okay good yeah I went down I sniffed it and I got real close to it to the mites in it did a little rail of it to see if it was rub some on my teeth to see if it's just to get a little jolt oh I wanted to say this isn't really a correction but it's more of a I mentioned my friend because we you were telling said Nancy story we don't know the stories that we're going to tell each other so I was talking talking about my friend Luke and I did a weird brain fart on his last name, which is awful because we worked together for five years.

[237] He's one of my favorite people on the planet and I just was like, couldn't do it.

[238] And then the next day he texted me of like, oh my God, I'm so honored because he listens.

[239] Yeah.

[240] And so I just want to give the full credit to Luke Womack, who is the most hilarious man. One of the most fun people I've ever worked with in my life, such a comic genius.

[241] whoops in the past in my past a comic genius he actually sent me a text that said after we like said you know i was like i'm so i miss you and i haven't seen you in so long and then he wrote oh and by the way covid -19 sachet away that was the last text he's a genius i love you look thank you for listening and you know being being you and for loving passionately loving vivian westwood so much yeah he really is her number one fan you know what I've been watching to stave away the depression.

[242] Because, like, you just watch depressing shit, which you do every day in normal life.

[243] But now it's like, you're hunkered down.

[244] So like, yeah, you need to get away.

[245] I've just been watching Parks and Rec over again.

[246] And it's so joyous.

[247] You know who loves that show is Nora.

[248] Really?

[249] Oh, yes.

[250] Big time.

[251] How old is she 12 now?

[252] She's 13 now.

[253] Oh, my God.

[254] I know.

[255] That's adorable.

[256] It's so good.

[257] It's just like.

[258] It's so good.

[259] lighthearted and fun and it's been it's been Vince and I have just been like putting it on instead of whatever yes that's a perfect also I have to say it uh well this will be Nora's recommendation list um because she knows every word to every episode but if you're looking for that kind of like laugh out loud get you through it modern family you know they just wrapped like their 13th season you have a vast world to dive into if you've never gotten into modern family I swear God.

[260] The joke writing is superb.

[261] It's tight.

[262] It's so tight.

[263] It's hilarious.

[264] It's just so good.

[265] Yeah.

[266] I love that.

[267] Should we do a quick exactly right corner?

[268] Yeah, let's do it.

[269] So I'm going to do, I'm going to feature this week.

[270] This podcast will kill you, which is a great podcast.

[271] They're celebrating their 50th episode this week by covering the history of antibiotics, which is fucking fascinating.

[272] I can't wait to listen to it.

[273] That's just, it's going to be rad.

[274] so good.

[275] Congratulations on your 50th episode.

[276] Yeah.

[277] Ladies.

[278] Ladies.

[279] And also this week and I said no gifts, which I believe comes out today also.

[280] Bridger has our game night friend from the sexy unique podcast, Carrie O'Donnell.

[281] hilarious writer, hilarious man. Steven said he enjoyed recording it, that it all went great.

[282] So definitely check in if you're a sexy unique podcast fan or if you've just heard those Carrie O'Donnell stories and you need to get more.

[283] Bridger and carry together are supremely hilarious.

[284] I love it.

[285] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[286] Absolutely.

[287] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[288] Exactly.

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[300] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[301] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

[302] Go to Shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today.

[303] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[304] Goodbye.

[305] Is that it all?

[306] I think that's all.

[307] Is that it?

[308] I think it is.

[309] Looks like it.

[310] And guess who's first this week?

[311] Me. Right?

[312] That's right.

[313] Oh, okay.

[314] If I just didn't.

[315] It just didn't answer.

[316] all right okay you know when you get one that like you're excited to tell so you're nervous about it because you want to get everything fucking right this is one of those and this one might be as strange as that Galapagos affair when I did a while back it's got twists and turns it's a fucking story and you might know a little bit about it but so this is the disappearance of Madeline Murray O 'Hare the most hated woman in America That's right.

[317] This story is amazing.

[318] And she's amazing.

[319] So I got info from The Austin Chronicle, an article by Robert Bryce in New York Times.

[320] There's an article on Medium by Delani R. Bartlett, Washington Post by Paul Duggan.

[321] There's so many good articles about this out there.

[322] That's a Texas monthly article.

[323] And there's an episode of this really great show, Vanity Fair Confidential, that I watch.

[324] That's about it.

[325] Oh, such a good show.

[326] I started watching that show because it's on Netflix, maybe.

[327] No, I think you can get the, like, the ID channel, like app and watch all of them.

[328] It's, I mean, I think we've talked about this before.

[329] Vanity Fair Confidential, if you are into true crime, even if it's a story you've heard a thousand times, their version of it is unbelievably.

[330] And you don't like corny reenactments.

[331] You want to hear from multiple sources.

[332] It's like journalism.

[333] Yeah, because these are Vanity Fair writers.

[334] This is like, this is the Honor Society of Journalism.

[335] Right.

[336] And then they interview the local journalists.

[337] It's a good show.

[338] It's so good.

[339] So I watched that.

[340] There's also a show, Netflix show made for Netflix in 2017 called The Most Hated Woman in America in America.

[341] That's like based on it, but there's some things.

[342] But I have the Who Plays Who Just in case you need it.

[343] Okay, great.

[344] So, can I do a guess?

[345] No. Starring Kathy Bates?

[346] It would have been great.

[347] But like, no. Okay.

[348] She should.

[349] Well, let's get because she should.

[350] Okay.

[351] So Madeline, her name.

[352] name is Madeline Murray O 'Hare.

[353] Madeline is born on April 13th, 1919 in Pittsburgh.

[354] She's baptized and raised as a Presbyterian in an upper middle class family until the 1929 stock market crash and her family like fucking lost everything.

[355] In her 20s, she enlists in for World War II and serves as a cryptographer in the woman's army corps.

[356] And when she's stationed in Italy, she meets this dude and has an affair with him.

[357] His name is William Murray Jr. and he's a married officer.

[358] Ooh.

[359] Yeah.

[360] And she gets pregnant with his baby, but he's a staunch Catholic, so he refuses to leave his wife because divorce isn't allowed.

[361] So maybe that's when she...

[362] Cheating is also not allowed.

[363] Right.

[364] Isn't that weird?

[365] Because you're breaking some rules.

[366] I don't know.

[367] How it works that way.

[368] So he refuses to marry her.

[369] She takes his last name anyways.

[370] So that's where she becomes Madeline Murray.

[371] And when she comes back to the U .S., she gets birth to a son and names him, William.

[372] And so his name, his name is Bill.

[373] So his name is Bill Murray.

[374] Oh.

[375] Went on to be hilarious.

[376] No. So back home.

[377] So maybe that's, okay.

[378] Maybe the Catholic part is what made her become an atheist.

[379] Maybe it just, she already was.

[380] Who knows?

[381] Very good chance.

[382] Yeah.

[383] She's like, fuck this shit.

[384] So back home, Madeline gets a law degree from the South Texas College of Law.

[385] And she moves with her son, Bill Murray, to Baltimore.

[386] And then on November 16th, 1954, she has a second son named John Garth Murray, fathered by an ex -boyfriend, so she has two kids.

[387] So one morning in 1960, as the tale goes, she's taking Bill to junior high, Bill Murray to junior high to enroll in classes in Baltimore, and she hears the students reciting the Lord's prayer at the start of the class.

[388] And she's like, I don't want my son doing that.

[389] He's not, you know, religious.

[390] And they, but they refuse to excuse him from saying the Lord's prayer.

[391] So in a radical move, she takes Baltimore school board to the Supreme Court to fucking talk about the church and state separation.

[392] Yeah.

[393] So you mean what our country was founded on.

[394] Right.

[395] Separation of church and state.

[396] Pretty important.

[397] And this is a time, though, it's the 1960s when most, I think most Americans considered themselves religious in some way.

[398] There was a lot.

[399] There was this moral majority.

[400] There was just, you know, how you do things.

[401] and religion, especially Catholic, it seems like Christian religions, obviously.

[402] Christian religions, yeah.

[403] Christian religions were huge.

[404] And so, because I, that's, I mean, that's a thing that they, my mom used to always bring that, she's like, these people that fight for prayer in schools.

[405] Right.

[406] They're never talking about anything from the Torah.

[407] No, no. They're never talking about anything Muslim.

[408] No. They, when they think of prayer, it's only the Christian point of view.

[409] That's right.

[410] So myopic and so.

[411] anyway, sorry.

[412] That's exactly.

[413] No, I need this in here.

[414] I want it.

[415] And atheism itself is looked down upon almost like in the same way Satanism was, where it's just like atheism who believes in not any of that.

[416] Of course, people who are religious take it as you believe in the opposite of what I believe in, which isn't that.

[417] But, you know, they're mad and they think they're right.

[418] So, but still, even though it's like that in America, in a historic ruling, the Supreme Court sides with her.

[419] And there was a couple other lawsuits at the same time, and banned school prayer in 1963.

[420] How fucking, literally, literally radical.

[421] She's a fucking radical.

[422] She's a true radical.

[423] Not really thinking of her junior high age son, though, and how difficult it would be to have a mom that's doing stuff like that.

[424] And she's doing it for him, but in the photos from back then, he just looks so unhappy and miserable.

[425] And so she's not the only plaintiff in the ruling, but she is the loud.

[426] voice and becomes like the face of it and a kind of a celebrity of it.

[427] And so Madeline, who's played by Melissa Leo.

[428] Do you know who that is?

[429] So she like, they age her.

[430] And when she becomes the older version of her, it looks exactly like her.

[431] It's just this white hair.

[432] Like, she looks like a grandma librarian and cute and everything.

[433] But then you talk to her.

[434] And you know those people that you talk to and you say something normal to them?

[435] And they immediately, you don't know who they are.

[436] They're checking you out of the library.

[437] and then they're mad at you immediately and you're just like, why?

[438] I don't, I didn't, I don't, I don't, you know what I mean?

[439] Yes, I was raised by those people.

[440] Yes, nuns, nuns.

[441] Those are my people.

[442] It's also that thing, it's, it's just ironic because it's that thing of like, you know, the whole thing of like you don't want prayer in school, you don't want people shoving stuff down, you know, your kid's throat or dictating anything.

[443] But a lot of times those personalities and the people that fight for stuff like that are the people who shove stuff down other people.

[444] throats.

[445] Exactly.

[446] So she was loud and brash right back at the people who were loud and brash at her about religion.

[447] She's combative.

[448] She's outspoken.

[449] She's fucking angry.

[450] She drinks beer.

[451] She curses like a sailor.

[452] Love it all.

[453] She says I'm a militant feminist.

[454] She fights for abortion rights.

[455] She's just like out there and loud about it.

[456] There's a reporter named Valerie Williams who said, quote, I have never encountered a more bitter, more distasteful person than Madeline Murray O 'Hare.

[457] She was extremely foul mouth to the point that even though we were doing an interview about something that she wanted us to do a story on, we had to stop the interview in the middle because she was cursing so much.

[458] Which in my whole fucking cunty heart, appreciate.

[459] As someone who said the word cunt on the grand old opera stage, I appreciate that.

[460] I mean, and also, you know, to claim that you're a militant feminist in the late 60s, early 70s was, it was insane.

[461] I mean, like, that's, you know, this has only been cool in the last five years.

[462] Yeah, totally.

[463] It's very edgy.

[464] I mean, all of it, it's also, in my opinion, a lot of times this boils down to being a very intelligent woman in modern society.

[465] It's a difficult thing to be the kind of person that's smart enough to be a car.

[466] Did you say she was a cartographer in the women's army?

[467] Yes.

[468] So this is a very.

[469] Cryptographer.

[470] Cryptographer.

[471] Oh, she's doing code breaking.

[472] Yeah.

[473] And she goes to law school.

[474] She's a smart cookie, you know.

[475] She's a smart cookie that's tired of, of dumb people ruining shit.

[476] And the thing about her being smart is she knows that the loudest voice gets heard.

[477] Because the fucking loudest voice in the evangelical Christians, whatever is fucking yelling at the pulpit too.

[478] And they're getting a ton of what's his face.

[479] Jerry Falwell?

[480] Jerry Falwell, right.

[481] Yeah.

[482] She got it.

[483] You got to fight fire with fire.

[484] But it's the whole thing of women.

[485] aren't supposed to be that way women aren't supposed to do stuff like that when they're not supposed to swear or drink beer right and you're on the other side so they're pissed and so so she appears on the debut episode of phil donahue he was like that's our first episode we need her he's a genius yes also i there's no way his wife marlowe thomas didn't have something to do with that because she was also a militant feminist nice but she was that girl so she was like the prettiest version with that.

[486] She was like a Gloria Steinem type.

[487] Like let me make this palatable for you fucking patriarchy assholes.

[488] So she appears on Phil Donnie's first show to publicly discuss her atheist views.

[489] The audience turns against her, as does the public.

[490] Yep.

[491] And in a 1964 article in Life magazine she's dubbed the most hated woman in America.

[492] Excuse me. Leave that in.

[493] Which she's proud of.

[494] She's like, hell yeah, and proud of that fucking title.

[495] So Madeline goes on the news circuit and she criticizes and ridicules religion and religious people.

[496] I mean, she's fucking laughing in their faces and she laughed at the entire concept of God.

[497] She riles them up and of course then gets more press for it.

[498] And because of that, she's harassed.

[499] She receives tons of death threats against her and her family.

[500] She says like their cat got killed and her she got male with feces in it and her home was stoned.

[501] Like, you know, she'd be kind of.

[502] She'd be literally the most hated woman in America.

[503] So in the late 60s, Madeline takes all her infamy and attention and founds the American atheists' organization.

[504] The aim of the organization is to, quote, defend the civil rights of non -believers, work for the separation of church and state, and address issues of First Amendment public policy.

[505] So after setting up the headquarters in Austin, where she lives now, she marries again and becomes, that's why she's Madeline Murray O 'Hare.

[506] Her husbands are footnotes in her story, which I appreciate.

[507] She, but she found a man. That's true.

[508] Despite everything.

[509] Just kidding.

[510] Just kidding.

[511] There's someone.

[512] People out there going, yeah, how can you say that?

[513] There's someone for everyone.

[514] Madeline becomes famous.

[515] She has an atheist radio program, television show called American Atheist Forum, and it's on more than 140 cable channels.

[516] So she's fucking famous.

[517] And so for the next few decades, Madeline devotes her life to campaigning against the church's power.

[518] She continues to file suits, challenging religious displays and rituals, including so one of the things she does is trying to get in God we trust removed from dollar bills which is like yeah it's government I mean she tries to get the phrase under God out of the pledge of allegiance she fights tax exempt status for the Catholic and Mormon churches that was right yeah and then then there's some shit about the moon landing and how he one of the moon, one of the astronauts was going to take communion on the moon.

[519] And missionaries wanted to go to the moon in case there were other life forms so they can convert them.

[520] It's just like, they're fucking with her.

[521] Yeah.

[522] It's crazy.

[523] It's absurd.

[524] And there's a clip of her just laughing about it.

[525] It's, it's absurd.

[526] So, and she's placed on Jay Agger Hoover's list of dangerous citizens.

[527] However, and maybe because of this, atheists all around the world start to fucking send her and her organization money to fight against, you know, to fight her fights.

[528] So at the peak of the American atheists, you know, height of their power, it's estimated that Madeline controls up to 15 million in donated assets.

[529] Oh, my God.

[530] And one of those fans is none other than Larry Flint, who is the owner of Hustler.

[531] Hell yeah.

[532] He tries to sign over his $300 million empire to her in case he dies, but his brother's like, this is not fucking happening.

[533] But he's like a fan and she writes for Hustler and Playboy and, you know, throughout the years.

[534] Wow.

[535] And throughout the 70s and into what becomes a super religious Reagan era of the 80s, she goes to court many times.

[536] She battles religious symbolism in the official domain.

[537] She fights for legalization of abortion.

[538] But in the 80s, more and more people are going to church and becoming right wing.

[539] You know, the satanic panic didn't happen in a bubble.

[540] It's because everyone, it's the same kind of fucking gasoline that lit this fire.

[541] Well, and it's that cultural pendulum that always swings.

[542] It's like this, you know, the whatever they call it, the social revolution or whatever it's correctly called.

[543] Yeah.

[544] Of the late 60s and into the 70s, then there was that malaise and that member like, you know, they, you know what?

[545] I forgot to mention this when I was doing the Kent State story, but those were like so many of those hippies and people in college students who thought they finally had a voice and were finally going to change the world.

[546] It didn't work.

[547] And my dad talked about this too.

[548] They become disillusioned and stop giving a shit.

[549] And they're like, I might as well become a fucking capitalist.

[550] And that's what happened in the late 70s and 80s.

[551] Yeah, a lot of those people in the, the Woodstock documentary is amazing because there's a guy that like was at Woodstock doing the whole thing.

[552] And I think this is how they got the Mad Men final episode.

[553] In the in the Woodstock documentary, he talks about this insane weekend that he has.

[554] And then he went back to his job, his advertising job.

[555] and wrote, plop, flop, fizz, oh, what a relief it is.

[556] And he came like, madman final.

[557] And he was like basically one of the biggest ad people after that.

[558] But he was like, he had the whole realization at Woodstock of like, he had this great idea.

[559] And then it was like, yeah, it's the pendulum swings.

[560] And it's like, we tried that.

[561] It's scary.

[562] It didn't.

[563] I didn't get what I needed out of it.

[564] So now we go this way.

[565] And Ronald Wigan says, you know, let's all pray and trickle down economics.

[566] And yeah.

[567] So the American Atheist organization.

[568] they still have a membership in the high five figures but by 1990 they're kind of dwindling all the chapters around the country are gone and the organization is kind of on the like the low end of the pendulum and they have tax problems it seems like maybe they're laundering some money that's a that's me always yeah and legal fights and you know that they're doing drain the organization because they have to hire lawyers to fight these fights and madeline starts considering leaving for new zealand She's like, fuck this shit.

[569] I can't, she can't fucking leave the house.

[570] She's been, like, harassed and, you know, attacked.

[571] So in August 27th, 1995, when a typewritten note is attached to the locked office doors at the headquarters of the American atheists in Austin, saying that Madeline, who's 76, her son, her younger son, Garth, who's 40, and Madeline's granddaughter, who's 30, who's actually Bill Murray's daughter.

[572] but she is you know they're all like a really close little family the three of them she they it says they'd been called out of town on an emergency don't know how long will they'll be gone don't worry about it and so it seemed it didn't seem like totally out of the ordinary that they had like skipped town but members of the atheist organization they searched the family home there's no evidence of violence or a struggle but it does seem like they left in a hurry because it's like the thing of half -eaten food on the table like they were in the middle of a meal kind of a story.

[573] She throws down her meatloaf and goes, we got to go to New Zealand right now.

[574] Right.

[575] Come on.

[576] You know how it is.

[577] Madeline's diabetes medication are still there.

[578] Their passports are still there.

[579] And they left their dogs behind like untaken care of, which isn't like them at all.

[580] And atheists take care of their dogs.

[581] Everyone knows that.

[582] It's all they have.

[583] That's right.

[584] Dog is their co -pilot.

[585] Got on.

[586] Good one.

[587] Bumper sticker comedy.

[588] Yeah.

[589] But a few days later, so they're like, this is weird.

[590] We don't know what's going on.

[591] They try to get in touch with all of them.

[592] But finally, Garth, the son does answer his cell phone when they call.

[593] And he's like, don't worry about it.

[594] Everything's fine.

[595] But he's really vague about their whereabouts.

[596] And Garth and the granddaughter Robin answer the cell phone.

[597] Occasionally the next couple weeks give strange vague answers.

[598] And the last time anyone talks to them on September 28th, Robin, the granddaughter is described as being distraught.

[599] And after that, no one ever hear.

[600] from them again.

[601] So, of course, a bunch of people are like, they fucking skip town and are living in New Zealand living it up on all the money they laundered.

[602] And some people are like, well, maybe the fucking people they angered finally, you know, killed them.

[603] It's like, who the fuck knows?

[604] And it takes a year for Madeline's estranged son, Bill Murray, who's now he fucking cut ties with the family, to finally report her missing to the Austin police.

[605] But since there's no evidence of foul play, the police don't follow up on the report.

[606] And also remember, this is Texas, which is probably.

[607] one of those religious places ever.

[608] And so they don't give a shit about this woman as well in the 90s, you know?

[609] Yeah.

[610] So a year after the Murray O 'Hare disappearance, a reporter from San Antonio Express News, John McCormick.

[611] Now, this guy's our fucking hero of the story.

[612] Don't you love it when the journalists are the fucking people who solve the problems?

[613] John McCormick happens a lot.

[614] It does.

[615] John McCormick is assigned to write an anniversary story on the disappearance of the three of them.

[616] And he just assumes that they fled the country and didn't want to be found.

[617] So he starts to dig into the story.

[618] He speaks with ex -members of the atheist organization.

[619] And one of those members is a man named David Waters, who's played by Josh Lucas.

[620] Oh, yeah.

[621] Okay.

[622] Is he a bad guy?

[623] Josh Lucas always turns out to be a douchebag.

[624] Yes.

[625] Okay.

[626] Okay.

[627] Um, just saying.

[628] What is he been in?

[629] Oh, tons of stuff.

[630] Well, he was in like Ford versus Ferrari as the douchebag from Ford, you know, but like, he always is that guy where you're like, or he's like the boyfriend that at first you think is great.

[631] And then he's like not.

[632] I agree.

[633] He's being typecast and pigeonholed when he is.

[634] He is.

[635] Such range.

[636] Because he's good at it.

[637] So this guy, David Waters, insists feveringly that the family left town.

[638] He's like, I think that they fucking stole a bunch of money.

[639] And here I have like letters and shit to prove it.

[640] And he gives it to any reporter that'll listen to him.

[641] He's on several news shows.

[642] He's on.

[643] He's on.

[644] America's Most Wanted, talking about the disappearance, talks to any fucking reporter about it.

[645] So, let's leave him over there.

[646] After publishing his story, John McCormick gets it.

[647] So he puts the story in the paper being like, I don't really know what happened to them.

[648] This is odd.

[649] He can't figure anything out.

[650] He puts the story up.

[651] Then he gets a call from a private investigator who specializes in finding missing persons, which sounds like the best fucking job ever.

[652] Yeah.

[653] His name's Tim Young.

[654] And he had read the article and was like, I don't care what happens.

[655] I need to be part of this.

[656] this is fascinating.

[657] So the two of them, McCormick and fucking young, for about 19 months, they chase leads.

[658] They examined phone records and credit card bills.

[659] And they're able to place Madeline and her son and granddaughter in the San Antonio area during the month after they disappeared.

[660] And yeah.

[661] So in San Antonio, the three of them had maxed out their credit cards with cash advances.

[662] And they find that $600 ,000 had been withdrawn from the organization.

[663] account by Garth.

[664] So after September 28th, there's no more activity on the cell phones or any other credit cards or accounts, which just supports the authority's theory that the family was fling in the country, right?

[665] They're like getting cash in later day.

[666] But it's just not adding up for McCormick and Young.

[667] They just like aren't, they're not, it's not coming together.

[668] Yeah.

[669] So McCormick's leads dry up until mid -1998 when he gets a call from a man who had read his article as well.

[670] And this dude is like, okay, so my brother is a small time con man. His name's Danny Fry.

[671] He had gone missing around the same time that the Murray O 'Hare's disappeared, the three of them disappeared.

[672] And he, all he knew is that his brother was last known to be in San Antonio in September of 1995, which was the time period, doing some kind of job with a dude who kept getting mentioned in these news articles named David Waters, aka.

[673] yeah who and he was like my brother who went to see him had actually served prison time with him so then McCormick's like uh -huh so remember David Waters who we just talked about who worked for Madeline what's his deal let's find out let's dig let's dig so he had been hired by Madeline in 1993 as a typesetter for the atheist organization I don't know if she knew that he had been in prison when she hired him but she was very vocal about giving people serving their and giving them second chances, so she actually didn't give a shit, which is...

[674] What wasn't she vocal about?

[675] Sorry, I'm going to keep this opinion to myself.

[676] It's about how darkly I like to toast my toast.

[677] But I'm going to...

[678] I don't like to talk about that.

[679] I'm just going to be quiet.

[680] I like burnt toast.

[681] So David Waters, he also was this charming, hardworking smart dude, so he was good at his job and eventually got promoted to office manager until the family discovers that he had stolen $54 ,000 from the atheist's organization fund.

[682] Wow.

[683] I almost put this paper to the side.

[684] Don't do that.

[685] Tape it to the wall behind you.

[686] So the family, they press charges on David Waters.

[687] He's only given probation in order to pay back the money.

[688] And so Madeline is fucking furious that he didn't get like, you know, you only got a slap on the wrist.

[689] So in the organization's July 1995 newsletter, she exposes David.

[690] Waters criminal background and says everything that he had been in prison for and had ever done which is that he was in there for at 17 years old he had beat a man to death with a fence post oh my god so that's why he was in prison and when he was released he brutally assaulted his mother and urinated in her face afterwards oh my god so he was a monster and she put it in the fucking newsletter okay sorry we've been doing this podcast for four years.

[691] I don't think we've ever heard that a detail like that.

[692] I mean, we've heard intensely fuck shit.

[693] And I wasn't sure if I was going to put it in there, but I want to just stress.

[694] No, it like gives a very clear picture of it's his mother.

[695] His mother.

[696] Shit.

[697] So this guy is not on the fucking level.

[698] And she put it in the newsletter.

[699] And I must have been, you know, with all the money, she got, had $15 million.

[700] There must have been thousands and hundreds of thousands of fucking people who got this newsletter in their mailbox every week.

[701] It was over by the horoscopes, but still, it was in there.

[702] It was in there.

[703] The atheist horoscope, you're fine.

[704] Be nice.

[705] Don't be a dick.

[706] You're the same as everybody else.

[707] We all have many.

[708] We all contain multitude.

[709] Yeah.

[710] There's no heaven.

[711] Be nice now.

[712] The end.

[713] And he had stolen $54 ,000 from them.

[714] So he's like, you know, he's a bad guy.

[715] And shortly after, so that was printed in July, 1990.

[716] And remember, they went missing in August, 1995, September is when the last, people last heard from them, right?

[717] Do you think the line about him paying in his own mother's face was in the newsletter?

[718] I think it was.

[719] And I tried to find the newsletter and I couldn't find it.

[720] But I think that was specifically in the newsletter.

[721] I mean, it's making me nervous.

[722] I know.

[723] And this happened 30 years ago.

[724] Yeah.

[725] Yeah.

[726] That's fucking Madeline for you.

[727] It's called, I don't give a fuck.

[728] the Madeline Mario Hair story Yeah it's called Come at me bro Yeah The Madeline Maria hair story Come at me bro Because I put it in the newsletter Yo It's too late It's in the newsletter Too late So McCormick and Young Remember John McCormick Our newspaper writer And our I'm gonna picture him Really beautiful He looks like Paul Holes in my mind Private Detective They're like oh shit and they're like let's do some fucking digging like now we know what's we knew something was going on so they find the phone records for this guy's brother fry and david waters and they are able to tie them together on the same time and uh you know that they're all in san antonio around that time and there's also another third fucking accomplice his name is uh gary car and he was also an ex cellmate of david waters and he was a serial rapist and kidnapper So it's the three of them at the same time, and one of them had worked for Madeline.

[729] And they all had copies of that newsletter in the back pocket of their lead gene.

[730] They had put it in a baseball bat case and put it on their wall for some time in the future when they might need it.

[731] So they had all been in San Antonio during this time in question.

[732] And so McCormick and Young are like, let's bring this to the Austin.

[733] PD, right?

[734] Like we have like it fucking.

[735] Hell yeah.

[736] Like those little red threads with the push buttons that go all the way over to the in the, you know.

[737] The Carrie put up in a homeland?

[738] Yeah.

[739] The homeland map.

[740] Or the, um, true detective style.

[741] You know, it's like the fucking classic.

[742] Every, they all added up.

[743] And they were like, what's up Austin PD?

[744] Here you go.

[745] And Austin PD was like, we don't give a fuck.

[746] She bugged us.

[747] There's nobody.

[748] So there's something we can do about it.

[749] Goodbye.

[750] So.

[751] They were like, she was not hot.

[752] And she swore.

[753] So fuck her.

[754] Right.

[755] So whatever.

[756] They move on.

[757] And finally, by sheer fucking godly, maybe coincidence.

[758] It was the Lord working.

[759] Okay.

[760] So by sheer coincidence, uh, McCormack sees a story in a Dallas newspaper about how three years earlier in 1995, a headless, handless corpse had been found nearby in the Trinity River.

[761] And he contacts the Dallas police with information.

[762] And he's like, I think I know who this is.

[763] And with DNA testing in early 1999, it's confirmed that the corpse is Danny Fry, the brother that the guy had called about his brother, who was one of David Waters accomplices.

[764] Whoa.

[765] Not a good sign for everybody else involved.

[766] No. So McCormick writes an article about the whole thing.

[767] Finally gets the attention of not just the police, but the FBI.

[768] And then they find out that an IRS special agent, Edmund Martin, had been the.

[769] looking into this case since 1997 because he was like this is fucking money laundering if nothing else yeah because they had already evaded taxes and shit and they owed a bunch of money to the IRS so he'd have been looking into it so you've now you get to fold in so there's the intrepid beautiful reporter there's the intrepid beautiful detective uh -huh private investigator yeah private investigator paul hole style uh -huh and now there's a nerd from the IRS coming just to fill out that rag tag team so finally on March 24th 1990 nine, seven weeks after McCormick's story is published, the agents from the IRS, the FBI, and the Dallas County Sheriff's Office raid the apartments of the two surviving accomplices.

[770] It's car and waters.

[771] And then David Waters run down shitty -ass apartment and they're like, why does they have a shitty apartment if he stole $600 ,000 from these people?

[772] They find 119 rounds of ammunition and it's a parole violation because he's on parole for stealing the money from before.

[773] Great.

[774] That's good news.

[775] That's good news.

[776] So he, David Waters is arrested.

[777] Gary Carr is also arrested for similar parole violations.

[778] And Waters is sentenced to eight years on the weapons charged, but 60 years for violating the terms of his parole.

[779] You would have hoped.

[780] Zero?

[781] Yes.

[782] 16.

[783] 16.

[784] Wow.

[785] And he was like in his 50s by then.

[786] So you would have hoped that he got 60 years for murdering a person with a fence post.

[787] But no, it's for violating parole.

[788] It was a different time.

[789] Yeah.

[790] Yeah.

[791] Okay.

[792] And then I wrote, Okay, but what does this have to do with murder, Georgia?

[793] I was like, you're off track at this point.

[794] There's lots of murder so far.

[795] That's true.

[796] There's a headless, handless corpse in a river.

[797] Right.

[798] That's murder, most likely.

[799] What order do people want?

[800] It's a worse murder.

[801] So here's what happens, knowing that he's going to prison for the rest of his life that's on his parole violations and not, he doesn't want to be in a Texas state prison anymore.

[802] He wants that sweet, sweet, sweet, fucking federal cushy prison.

[803] Yeah, yeah, where there's all.

[804] the tennis lessons and stuff.

[805] Exactly.

[806] Easy.

[807] In 2001, he's like, all right, I'll confess to everything if you put me in a federal prison.

[808] And he does it.

[809] And he fucking begins telling the story of the kidnapping and murder of Madeline, her son, Garth, and her granddaughter Robin.

[810] So in August 27th, 1995, he says, the three convicts, waters, car, and fry, all armed with handguns.

[811] They use a delivery man ruse.

[812] They surprised Madeline, Garth, and Robin at the atheists headquarters.

[813] Kidnap them, take them to a motel in San Antonio, demand the contents of their bank account, which is the $600 ,000, which is in New Zealand.

[814] So maybe that money laundering thing is true.

[815] But because of, and they're like, we'll let you go unharmed once we have the money.

[816] But because it's in fucking New Zealand, it turns out that it's going to take a long time to get to the U .S. 30 fucking days.

[817] So in this, like, it's like an apartment motel.

[818] What are those long -term living apartments called?

[819] Yeah, I think it's long -term.

[820] extended stay extended stay place they end up staying there for 30 days together they play cards they watch TV they get fucking takeout and they kind of like become friends and begin to trust each other so the money is on its way it gets stuck in a bank in New Jersey and the son Garth and David Waters actually get on a plane and fly there together so Garth can get it out and he trusts that he's not going to get killed so much that he doesn't alert anyone to what's going on Whoa.

[821] Like, he believes them that they're not going to kill him and his family, his mom and niece.

[822] So not even.

[823] Oh.

[824] I know.

[825] And you know what?

[826] Maybe they weren't going to because according to the story, and who knows if it's true, when they get back from New Jersey, David Waters goes in and learns that car who was a rapist, remember?

[827] Yeah.

[828] Had raped and murdered young Robin, the granddaughter.

[829] No. That's according to the story.

[830] And so Garth and Madeline don't know about that.

[831] And they finally get the $600 ,000.

[832] And they trade it all for gold coins at the local jewelry store.

[833] And once they have the money, the three convicts attack Garth and his sleep.

[834] They put a leather belt around his neck.

[835] And he's fucking six, four, and over 200 pounds.

[836] And so he puts up this huge fight against these three men.

[837] But eventually they put a bag over his head and he suffocates to death.

[838] It's awful.

[839] It's so.

[840] it's these people I mean it's just so fucking sad and heartbreaking and and greedy and mean and terrible and madame and dumb and madeline's killed in the same fucking way oh god it's really awful um the three of them take the bodies to back to austin and in a storage unit they dismember the bodies with a bowsaw they put them each into 55 gallon barrels and then they drive to remote area and bury the barrels and at some point maybe when they were burying the family David Waters shoots Fry in the back of the head killing him maybe he was a double crosser or something.

[841] Yeah.

[842] And remember the headless body that's found it's his and they throw his head and hands into the pit with the rest of them.

[843] Good God.

[844] Yeah.

[845] So afterwards Waters and Carr go on a fucking spending spree.

[846] They spend nearly $80 ,000 of that $600 ,000 but the rest of it, the 500, like almost $500 ,000 they put in a suitcase in a different storage unit.

[847] Okay.

[848] And now, fucking ironically, and this does make me believe in a higher power, three local teenage hoodlums are on a fucking spree.

[849] How God works through teenage hoodlums 100%.

[850] God works in mysterious teenage hoodlums.

[851] They fucking start breaking in to storage units.

[852] Yes.

[853] They steal the fucking suitcase.

[854] Yes.

[855] All the money that they, this fucking three people, people were killed for they steal it they go on a crazy spending spree eventually they get caught as well but it's like you know can you imagine like david waters walking up to his fucking storage unit and that shit got stolen it was it's like fargo it's just this fucking it is it's a total fargo and it also is that thing of like all the work i mean it's very similar to fargo all the work to put in a to stay with that family for a month yeah to have to live with the people you're eventually going to murder like what how could you do it it's it's horrific it's just shows how there's just so many people who don't have a conscience that like yeah will do such things to people that they get to know and like you know play cards with and shit it's just for money just for fargo all that for just a little bit of money that's right after his confession david waters leads the police to the remote ranch in camp wood texas they find the shallow grave with three dismembered skeletons and the hands and skull with a bullet hole in them.

[856] Madeline is identified by the serial number on her artificial hip and later the others are all identified through DNA.

[857] Gary Carr is given two life sentences without the possibility of parole for all of the crimes, but they don't ever try them for the murder.

[858] No one ever gets tried for murder and kidnapping.

[859] David Waters dies of lung cancer on January 27, 2003 in federal prison.

[860] And yeah, no one's ever tried for the murders.

[861] But in an ironic twist, when they do go to court for these life sentences, the swearing on a Bible, the in God part is taken out, partly because of Madeline's fight to get God out of government.

[862] Wow.

[863] Isn't that amazing?

[864] Yes.

[865] So finally, the Murray O 'Harras are reburied in an unmarked grave to protect them from vandals by their son, Bill Murray, William Murray.

[866] He, even though he's estranged and clearly doesn't like his mom, he respects her wish.

[867] and allows no prayers or religious services at their funeral, despite the fact that he is now an evangelical Christian.

[868] Of course he is.

[869] Right, because you can't make your children do what you want them to do.

[870] No, no. In fact, he founded the Religious Freedom Coalition, which is the largest and most powerful Christian right lobbying group in the nation.

[871] It's like, yeah, people, yeah, it's just how it works.

[872] Here's a quote from Madeline Marie O 'Hare.

[873] She says, I told my kids, I just want three words on my teeth.

[874] Toonstone, if I have one, woman, atheist, anarchist, that's me. And that is the mysterious disappearance and murder of Madeline Murray O 'Hare.

[875] Unbelievable.

[876] Unbelievable story.

[877] How bananas is that?

[878] It's really, I mean, it's, that's amazing that you said that, because it really is very parallel to Fargo.

[879] Totally.

[880] Just a lot less funny, but still just that insane.

[881] And I mean, look, I love a loud, obnoxious woman.

[882] Clearly I am one.

[883] Clearly, I love to swear.

[884] Clearly, I don't give a fuck.

[885] But there is that thing that I think I've learned more recently in my older age, which is that it is a much more peaceful life when you're not so obsessed with these ideas in your head of how you need it to be.

[886] Because it isn't true.

[887] Even if it's like, yeah, I honestly personally believe that there needs to be a separate.

[888] of church and state, because when you don't separate church from the government, then the church is used to sway people and to hold power over people where it should, it doesn't belong.

[889] It should not be allowed.

[890] And it's also not considering everybody because everyone only thinks church as in Catholic or Christian church, which doesn't represent America.

[891] This is a country filled with all kinds of religions and backgrounds and atheists.

[892] And you have to represent this country when you're.

[893] you're talking about the government, the official representative of the country.

[894] Right.

[895] But if you take your, if you get so attached to your crusade that you start going in basically the same direction that you're accusing the people of being the oppressors, then you, the oppressed, become the oppressors.

[896] It's absolute power that corrupts absolutely.

[897] It's the same thing every time.

[898] Yeah.

[899] I didn't realize I had such a speechy.

[900] I mean, I love to make a speech.

[901] I love it.

[902] It's great.

[903] I love the concept of her.

[904] Yes.

[905] But I wish she had aimed more for the middle because you can't, you can't just mimic the people you hate.

[906] You can't be exactly the same as them and then go they're the ones that are wrong.

[907] Because now you're doing it too.

[908] You know, your side cheers for you and the other side yells their version of that right back at you and their side cheers for them.

[909] And no one ever learns anything.

[910] No one ever comes to an understanding.

[911] No one says, I get what you're saying, but I don't agree with it.

[912] It's.

[913] I need to destroy you and yes and you can't welcome to 2020 America exactly you can't move forward if that's what's happening right and I mean maybe not to be overly philosophical now but maybe that's the huge benefit of such an insane thing like this pandemic and something as awful as what this country is going through right now and the death that people are seeing that it's waking them up to this idea that this big concept of whatever side they're on on is merely a concept.

[914] Right.

[915] And what they need to do is whoever lives next door to them, no matter where that person lands in the political spectrum or the religious spectrum or the whatever, make sure that person's okay because it's your neighbor and you should give a shit about the people around you.

[916] And you shouldn't be picking teams.

[917] You should be trying to help like others.

[918] Sorry.

[919] No, no. I'm just saying shit that's like you get a talk in kindergarten.

[920] they they fucking benefit when we're fighting the fucking big government the fucking people who make the laws the people who overlords the overlords benefit when we're fighting against each other this angrily and this loudly because then we're not paying attention to what they're doing to us which is fucking making the poor poor and fucking taking you know money from all kinds of evil fucking people so they can benefit meanwhile you know we can't fucking pay rent because the entire government is shut down.

[921] Yeah.

[922] Or they're just still considering whether or not they want to help people.

[923] Right.

[924] Yeah, that was an amazing story.

[925] You were right.

[926] That had it all.

[927] Yeah.

[928] Also, it sucks too because just that what she was fighting for was important and what she wanted was basically just another version of equality.

[929] She wanted everyone to be represented instead of just the, you know, just the Christians or just the Roman Catholics or whoever.

[930] She wanted everyone to be represented and she wanted it to be fair.

[931] Great job.

[932] That was really good.

[933] Thank you.

[934] Yeah.

[935] It was exciting.

[936] And as you were introducing it and saying, you know, those ones where you get really excited, I was like, yeah, because that's mine this week.

[937] Really?

[938] Speaking of which.

[939] But this is like kind of an update.

[940] So it doesn't really belong in Corrections Corner.

[941] And it's a huge bummer.

[942] And thank you to Hannah.

[943] on Twitter at Sincerely Hannah for pointing this out it's so rough but she basically sent me all of us a tweet saying you didn't mention this part of the story that happened in 2003 and when I opened the article that she sent I was flabbergat I mean I was like my jaw dropped so basically she sent me an article that one of the policemen who was right there like the original team of rescuers for baby Jessica, Sergeant Andy Glasscock, in 2003, drugged and raped a 51 -year -old woman, and they found child porn in his possession.

[944] So he's now in federal prison himself for 20 years.

[945] He's serving a concurrent sentence.

[946] It's a complete disaster story.

[947] And I basically Jay and I both, because Jay, you know, does like first round research for me. And he's like, I'm so sorry I didn't see anything like this and I was like dude I read every article I mean I love this story I read every single article I saw nothing about this and we were talking about probably because it's he was used to be a hero yeah he's a cop it's and it's that kind of thing where no one wants to hear these stories after the fact totally so thank you Hannah for sending that and it's it's a true bummer but I mean it is a part of the story that should be told yeah But now we go on to, this is another survival story, and I'm very excited that Jay found it and suggested it because I was like, oh, that's one of my favorite ones of all time.

[948] This is the survival story of Julianne Kopke.

[949] All right.

[950] So, searching my memory banks.

[951] It's, you know, you wouldn't, I don't think you'd recognize it from the name, but you will from this actual story.

[952] So we used, you know, BBC .com, all that's interesting .com, vice, Wikipedia, history .com.

[953] But I watched, there's a Werner Herzog made -for -TV movie documentary about this woman's experience.

[954] And it's called Wings of Hope.

[955] And I watched it today.

[956] It's amazing.

[957] You can watch it's on YouTube.

[958] It's like an hour long.

[959] And it literally has an adult Julianne Kopke.

[960] walking through how she got through this experience and lived through it.

[961] And it's unbelievable.

[962] And the reason Warner Herzog made this documentary is because so she, she basically survived a plane crash in the Amazon.

[963] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[964] And he was supposed to be on the plane.

[965] No, I did not know that.

[966] I didn't either.

[967] I didn't know any part of this.

[968] So he was basically down there.

[969] He was, well, I think I'd get into it actually later.

[970] on.

[971] But I'll explain that.

[972] Oh, Werner Herzog.

[973] It's so nuts.

[974] So it's amazing because this documentary basically, you know, I'll give you the information that I learned in the documentary and also in those other articles, but you can completely go watch it for yourself and watch her tell you firsthand.

[975] Amazing.

[976] What happened.

[977] Okay.

[978] So it's Christmas Eve, 1971.

[979] And 17 -year -old Julian Koppi and her mother Maria are waiting to board.

[980] a Lanza flight, which is an airline that doesn't exist anymore for very good reason, a Lanza Flight 508 from Lima, Peru to Pucalpa, Peru.

[981] Okay, so Julianne has just passed her final exams for high school, graduated from high school the night before at, forgive me for this pronunciation, Dutch Shul Lima Alexander von Humboldt.

[982] That's the name of the high school.

[983] easy um and it's in lima so both of julian's parents her mother maria and her father hans wilhelm are german biologists and they live and work at their ecological research station in pulculpa how incredible is their life right no literally she she got to grow up like they they lived in lima because both of the parents at first worked um for a museum there but then they got to like live their and basically go, we are going to go out into the jungle and study the animals and all the living creatures that are out there.

[984] Incredible.

[985] And so basically, and here's the story.

[986] So her father, Hans Wilhelm, he emigrated to Peru after World War II.

[987] He didn't even have a passport.

[988] He was broke.

[989] He had no money.

[990] So he's a young biologist and all he wanted to do was study like, you know, jungle life and animals in the jungle.

[991] So he stows away on a freighter.

[992] He hides in a cargo area with, that's filled with.

[993] assault.

[994] And he basically gets to South America, gets off the ship, and then walks across the continent and gets himself to Peru.

[995] Holy shit.

[996] Yeah.

[997] Essentially, so, and so her mother Maria is also a biologist.

[998] She had been in Lima.

[999] She was there on business, but then also her daughter was graduating from high school.

[1000] And she actually wanted to fly back, like on the 20th or the 21st.

[1001] but then Julianne wanted to graduate with her with her classmates and she wanted to go to the prom, which was right after.

[1002] So they end up staying for all that and then getting to the airport on Christmas Eve, 1971, to fly out.

[1003] The plane is seven hours late and by the time Julianne and Maria bored everyone like is angry.

[1004] They're anxious to get home for Christmas.

[1005] There's all these people waiting and there were supposed to be two flights.

[1006] there's 508 and then there was the flight that was supposed to leave afterwards.

[1007] So there was a bunch of people trying to get on 508 because they didn't want to have to, because they were so late at this point.

[1008] They didn't want to get home Christmas Day.

[1009] But and so Werner Herzog tells a story in Wings of Hope where he says he tried to bribe the counterperson.

[1010] He gave them $208 thinking they would get him on 508.

[1011] So he was supposed to be on the other flight.

[1012] He's trying to get on 508.

[1013] He tries to get on 5O8 and he doesn't get on.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] And so when the people, like, when everyone gets to board, all the people that are on the flight like cheer and they're like, yeah, yeah, we did it.

[1016] And like basically like, hooray, we made it onto this flight.

[1017] Boy.

[1018] Even though weather conditions are turning bad, the crew is under so much pressure to stick to this flight schedule and get people home for the holidays that they decide to continue on and not cancel the flight.

[1019] Right.

[1020] So yeah, Werner Herzog was there.

[1021] He was supposed to be, he's filming a movie called The Wrath of God that's about Spanish conquistadors trying to find El Dorado the Lost City of Gold in the jungle.

[1022] And they show a clip in Wings of Hope.

[1023] And that jungle is so dense and crazy.

[1024] It's like it looked like a complete nightmare.

[1025] So while all the stuff's happening with Julianne in the story, you can just picture Werner Herzog is in the jungle like 30 miles away shooting his movie.

[1026] And she's like, I just want to get on a plane.

[1027] I just, okay, so they board the flight.

[1028] Julian and Maria take their seats in the 19th row for what should only be about an hour -long flight, just like a little jumper to get to their hometown.

[1029] And in Wings of Hope, they say, Julianne says that her mom was sitting in the middle.

[1030] She was at the window.

[1031] And then there was a very large man that has the aisle seat who immediately falls asleep.

[1032] so everything's smooth sailing for the first 25 minutes of the flight and um but julian can see that you know they can all see dark clouds outside that they've been like they've basically flown into a bunch of clouds and soon the plane is surrounded and then the turbulence starts and the thunderstorm breaks out and it gets worse and luggage um it starts to fall from the overhead bins very scary Christmas gifts uh Christmas cakes things are just falling out yeah the mother and daughter begin to hold hands they try to remain calm as around them they can hear fellow passengers panic some start crying 10 minutes later Julian sees a very bright light hit the engine outside the window and she realizes the plane's just been struck by lightning no and in a calm voice Maria says this is the end it's all over oh my god her mom says that to her?

[1033] Her mom says it.

[1034] I mean, okay, so immediately the plane takes a nosedive.

[1035] Cabin goes black.

[1036] Everyone starts screaming.

[1037] The luggage and all these packages that have fallen out, now are flying around the cabin.

[1038] And the sound of the failing engine is becoming this deafening roar.

[1039] And Julianne talks about it where that was kind of like all she could hear, like took over everything.

[1040] And then suddenly it stops.

[1041] and she realizes she's outside of the plane Oh my God Free falling In her seat In their row of seats Her like her seat got sucked out of the plane In midair And she's just The plane broke apart Holy fuck So she in Wings of Hope She says Quote It wasn't that I had left the plane But that the plane had left me Oh that's good So she's she's still strapped to her seat and she falls two miles down to the jungle floor and all she can hear is the sound of the wind as the canopy of the rainforest is spinning toward her and she loses consciousness all right so now we're going to go into a little history Julian Coffey was born in Lima, Peru to her German parents who I told you a little bit about Maria and Hans Wilhelm on October 10th, 1954 She's their only child.

[1042] At the time, Maria and Hans Wilhelm both work for the Museum of Natural History in Lima.

[1043] But in 1968, when Julianne's 14, they leave Lima for the Amazon rainforest city of Pucalpa in eastern Peru.

[1044] It sits on the banks of a tributary of the Amazon River.

[1045] And there, you know, a little bit into the jungle, they set up this research station.

[1046] Basically, Julian lives there and is homeschooled there.

[1047] And the plan was that she was just going to feel.

[1048] finished high school, like being homeschooled at, um, at their, at her parents research station.

[1049] And she is homeschooled there for a year and a half.

[1050] It's, of course, any, any child that's interested in animals and stuff like this, it's dream life.

[1051] She, she even has her own two can.

[1052] So, I mean, life is great.

[1053] Fruit loops everywhere.

[1054] Um, but then in 1970, the local school authorities find out that she's just out there being homeschooled.

[1055] And they say, sorry, she has to go to normal high school to graduate.

[1056] And because she wants to go on to college so she can study zoology and become a biologist like her parents, she does go back to Deutsche Lima, Alexander von Humboldt, for her finals, which she passes.

[1057] So she wants to graduate, go to the prom, whatever.

[1058] Her mom hangs out and is like, that's fine.

[1059] I'll change the ticket.

[1060] But the only available flight after Julianne's graduation in prom is on Christmas Eve on the airline Lanzah.

[1061] they in this documentary Wings of Hope talks so much shit about this airline at one point it's like do you remember tower air no did you ever have to fly tower air no as a as a very broke comic in the 90s it was rough it was like a it was kind of like a cargo plane there was like I remember sitting in a in a middle seat in the middle section and it was like 15 seats across oh yeah like crazy everybody was passing things most people had to their own food.

[1062] I was so hungover that I just tried to sleep.

[1063] And the lady sitting next to me kept waking me up for every beverage and food offering where I was like, I don't want to leave me alone.

[1064] Please, I'm dying.

[1065] She'd be like, do you want to drink?

[1066] Do you want some tips?

[1067] Anyway, basically, at one point in this documentary, Werner Herzog tells Julianne that he did research on Flight 508 and found out that the mechanics who worked on that plane had only ever worked on motorcycles before that.

[1068] Oh, no. That's a very different.

[1069] machine.

[1070] It's a different machine.

[1071] And also, the pilots, speaking of which, the pilots were not licensed to fly commercial.

[1072] Oh, no, that's not how you run a business.

[1073] It was bad news coming and going.

[1074] And so, of course, Julian's dad, um, advises his wife against Flying Lanza.

[1075] Oh.

[1076] They had recently had two crashes, like in the previous months.

[1077] But Maria wanted Julianne to have like a normal high school experience and she's like, it's worth it.

[1078] So she books the flight anyway.

[1079] Oh, dear.

[1080] so that's how they got there okay so when julian wakes up on the jungle floor it's christmas morning it's early morning she is underneath the row of seats that she was sitting in her mother is nowhere to be seen the large man on the aisle seat no she's alone there's some wreckage around her but because the plane broke apart in the air she's separated from the bulk of the crash site so she just kind of calls out to her mother no one answers now she can barely see.

[1081] Yeah.

[1082] So she wears glasses.

[1083] Her glasses are gone.

[1084] She's really near -sighted.

[1085] Her left eye is swollen shut and her right eye is swollen so she can only open it like a sliver.

[1086] Oh my God.

[1087] Also, and now we're going to go through a list of injuries.

[1088] So if you're squeamish, you're going to want to now listen to the podcast, Dr. Death.

[1089] Just kidding.

[1090] So squeamish alert.

[1091] Her collar bone is broken and it's sticking out of the right side of her clavicle area which I think is a colorbone she can't feel it though okay she can't she can't feel it she just looks down and sees it and can't feel it she also has a ruptured ligament in her knee can't feel that she's got she's in the documentary it says she looked down and there was a cut on her calf that was so deep it wasn't bleeding and that it reminded her of a canyon because of how of how it was like kind of broken torn up at the top horrifying Wow.

[1092] She also has a really bad cut on the upper back part of her right arm, but she's alive miraculously.

[1093] So one of the theories of how it would be possible for her to survive falling two miles out of the sky strapped to a row of seats is that because of the severity of the thunderstorm, they were really strong updrafts.

[1094] Like there's, you know, it's like all about warm air and cold air or whatever.

[1095] So there were really strong updrafts that were pushing it against her fall.

[1096] That were slowing down Like the force of gravity or whatever Or the gravitational pull maybe if that was It's right It was God It was the hand of the Lord That kind of scooped her up But also she landed in a part of the forest The jungle forest Where the trees Were really close together And intertwined with these really thick vines Like all the way through So they almost created like a little bit of a net As she fell So she basically, I mean, she was, it's softened, quote unquote, her landing, as they say.

[1097] It's like lost meets Alice in Wonderland right now.

[1098] Entirely.

[1099] So she lucks out insanely like it's, how could you not think I'm a miracle and my life is destiny after you survive something like this?

[1100] She's under, like the seats are kind of folded over.

[1101] So the back of the seat is like almost created like a little tent like that.

[1102] she's under it again can't can't really see she has a really bad concussion so when she tries to even begin to stand up she blacks out um so she spends actually the first day just trying to get up and like and and like she's you know for a while she crawls around on all fours because she's trying to find her mother and um it's you know everything is a huge really difficult for her yeah also So she is wearing a sleeveless mini dress.

[1103] No. It's 1970.

[1104] She's wearing a sleeveless mini dress.

[1105] She was wearing sandals.

[1106] She only has one on.

[1107] So she lost one of her sandals.

[1108] So she has, and then she does not her glasses.

[1109] So she's having to stick her one still shewed foot out ahead of her.

[1110] When she finally does, is able to stand and walk.

[1111] She has to stick her foot out to make sure she isn't trip like over a rock or, you know, anything like that.

[1112] that as she moves along.

[1113] So her first, in her mind, the first thing she needs to do is find her mom.

[1114] Because she's convinced if she's alive, her mom must be too.

[1115] Her and her mom were super, super close.

[1116] And she kind of, in the documentary, she said you just kind of couldn't imagine being without her.

[1117] So she called for her a bunch and tried to find her.

[1118] She's finding little bits of wreckage here and there as she's moving around the jungle.

[1119] She actually ends up finding a bag of candy and takes it with her.

[1120] And it's her only food for a long time.

[1121] She also, there was one of those Christmas cakes that fell out was also there too.

[1122] But then when she took bite of it, she realized it had just been sitting in mud.

[1123] So it had like absorbed a bunch of dirt and mud.

[1124] So then she threw it away.

[1125] And of course, later on, deeply regretted having done that.

[1126] So basically she's, you know, wanders for a while and then comes upon another row of seats.

[1127] there are three bodies still strapped into this row of seats but this row of seats didn't the fall was not broken in any way and it was driven three feet into the ground holy shit from the from the impact of the fall um so she with her concussion and her kind of weird thinking and trying to find her mom she decides this is the first time she's ever seen a dead body obviously you know this is insanely traumatic but she gets this idea in her head of maybe this is one of these people is her mom and she can so she ends up like getting a stick and taking a shoe off of one of the feet and she sees that there's nail polish on the toenails and her mom never put nail polish on her toes so she knew it wasn't her mom and that's when she realized she was totally alone in the jungle that her mom was gone and that she had to get herself she had to start thinking clearly and get herself out of there and she basically is like I know now I have to press on alone.

[1128] Basically, she kind of wanders around for about four days, you know, trying to find a direction.

[1129] And the coolest thing was that the school authorities were very wrong about the benefit of her homeschooling.

[1130] Because she had all this like survival skills just from having to live in the jungle naturally.

[1131] Yeah.

[1132] So she's not scared of like when I first read this story, which was long ago and with the Terry Joe story of Terry Joe who was on the yacht and then went out to sea as a little child.

[1133] Yes.

[1134] I read a what's it called?

[1135] Compilation.

[1136] Books aren't called compilation.

[1137] Yeah.

[1138] Compilation.

[1139] Sounds right.

[1140] Short stories.

[1141] Well, it's true stories of survival basically.

[1142] And this story is Thank you, Stephen.

[1143] Oh, it's God.

[1144] Thank God.

[1145] Thank God one of us went to college.

[1146] Steven, do you want to be in our book club?

[1147] Okay, so this story was in that book with Terry Joe's story too.

[1148] And I remember just going, if I didn't have one shoe and I was in the jungle with bugs and snakes and spiders and all I would, I would never stop screaming.

[1149] I would just lose my mind.

[1150] Yeah.

[1151] But she, that's what she loved.

[1152] And she knew what was poisonous and she knew what wasn't.

[1153] She knew how to survive just naturally.

[1154] So she, none of that.

[1155] scared her and also she says whether it was the trauma of the experience or that it was like she said she just had this kind she never felt fear she also never felt hungry she just had this kind of like she was cut off and she was like I just got to get to civilization so so basically she knew that if you get lost in the jungle what you have to do is listen for water because if you can find a source of water you can follow the water however whatever direction the water is running it runs to other water that's apparently that's a water works so what so she's as she wanders and wanders she finally realizes one day that she's been listening to a sound that she didn't put together in her head that was the sound of running water and when she realized it she was like oh my god so she followed it she finds a natural spring with a little rivulet of water running out of it and she just walks along the rivulet and eventually that rivulet gets her to this little creek and you can literally watch her do it Warner Herzog went to the middle of the jungle found the plane wreckage found all these sites and you watch her re -walk her way out of the jungle the plane wreckage is still there still there 30 years later because how are they going to get it out and what for right like they probably get the bodies out and then it's all grown over and they bring her back to it?

[1156] She agrees to go back and do it like do it for the to show what she did.

[1157] So you watch her walk through, you know, like when you're, I mean, the first, you know, creek quote unquote is probably a foot wide.

[1158] It's not, you know, but then you see it just gets bigger and bigger and deeper and going downhill, the whole thing.

[1159] And then that she basically gets the little creek and that joins her up to a bigger creek.

[1160] And she knows that once she gets to a larger body of water that actually is like moving and has a current, if she follows that downstream, that that will bring her to civilization, that that's where you never go upstream, just everybody, write all these things down on your hand.

[1161] You go downstream.

[1162] So she also knows, so as she's doing this, she knows that walking in the water is less dangerous than walking through dense forest.

[1163] Oh, yeah.

[1164] So, and they talk a little bit about, she talks about, like, people always talk about piranhas.

[1165] Yeah.

[1166] She says this She's standing in the middle of a river A running river And she's like A lot of people would be scared By this And I was like watching it like My heart is racing And she's like But like people are always scared of piranhas Piranhas Are harmless in water with a current It's when it's still water That they like go crazy So she's like She knows all the stuff She knows everything Yeah She was the perfect 17 year old To be in a to survive a car crash, I mean a plane crash in the forest.

[1167] Yeah, she says more than snakes, tarantulas, even piranhas, the one thing to worry about in water like that are manta rays.

[1168] They have poisonous snow.

[1169] Yeah, poisonous stingrays in the water.

[1170] They, what, no. Yeah.

[1171] So she basically, when she finally gets to water that's like big enough for that's a concern, she finds a big old stick and she walks and then just pokes the ground in front of her as she's walking with one shoe again.

[1172] Oh my god.

[1173] So she's like get out of my she's like making sure she's not going to stand on any yes exactly and just and pokes them all the pokes the like ground in front of her so she wades downstream and as you know so this a couple days have gone by now and she can hear the search planes oh but she's still in enough overgrowth that she can't she can't signal to them in any way and also the way this plane went down because it broke up in the air there's no main crash site literally the jungle just swallowed the plane and all the different plane parts and even if there was she's walked away from it at this point so like they don't know where she is no no and they're assuming everyone's dead they can't see they can't see anything it's just like this plane has disappeared wow so they're kind of assuming and they it was one of the biggest search search and rescue efforts in airborne search and rescue efforts in the history of Peru but you know after they search and search and search for like I think it was five days they give up because they can't even find where the plane went down so they just have no idea so as she's waiting downstream she can hear them and then she hears them go away so she gets really mad because she thinks either they found everybody else and saved them and just not her or just that they gave up on her she doesn't know, but she again reminds herself, you just have to keep pushing forward.

[1174] You just have to keep going.

[1175] So meanwhile, everyone in Peru, basically, is waiting to hear any news of Flight 508 that basically just disappeared in a storm, including, of course, Hans Wilhelm, who is facing the horrible reality that both his wife and daughter have died in this plane crash.

[1176] Meanwhile, back in the rainforest, Julianne is alternating between wading in the shallower waters and then swimming in deeper parts of the water and she's the days are really hot and humid and then it'll start raining like it rains several times a day as she's trying to get out but the rain is cold so she said when it hit her it felt like needles and it happened a ton but the good part was then she had lots of drinking water so yeah she theorizes that that's why she wasn't so hungry is because she just constantly kept kind of kept herself full by just constantly drinking water.

[1177] Right.

[1178] At night, of course, the air turns cold.

[1179] Mosquitoes and bugs swarm her.

[1180] And, like, you know, she tries to her best to keep them away.

[1181] But they're everywhere.

[1182] And she, at night to sleep, she gets out of the of the creek or the river.

[1183] And she curls up on the riverbank, gets her back to the bank and basically just tries to keep warm, even though she's soaking wet.

[1184] God, and like, anything can come get you.

[1185] Any creature.

[1186] Yep.

[1187] Yeah.

[1188] And there's creatures that you, that have already gotten you.

[1189] Right.

[1190] Oh, yeah.

[1191] Oh, yeah, that's right.

[1192] Wait, what?

[1193] Get ready.

[1194] I'll tell you.

[1195] Oh, no. So, just, she has a watch on her wrist that was a gift from her grandmother.

[1196] So for the first four days, she's using it to track time and track days passing.

[1197] But on the fourth day, it stops.

[1198] So after that, she just has to track it in her head.

[1199] But she knows that's important, too, just to know how many days have passed.

[1200] and it's the rainy season so there's not a lot of wild fruit that she can pick and eat she doesn't have any tools she can't hunt or fish she knows that there's lots of plants that are poisonous so she doesn't want to risk trying to eat something and making herself sick she eats the candy until the candy's gone but again she never felt hungry she said but she knew she was getting weaker because she was just walking nonstop on either the fifth or six day.

[1201] She's not sure because the watch was broken.

[1202] This stream that she's been in now opens up to a bigger river.

[1203] And this is like now she knows that she's getting closer.

[1204] But at this point, her wounds have started to fester.

[1205] And so it's harder for her to walk.

[1206] So there's some days where she just floats down the river.

[1207] And she does see crocodiles.

[1208] And sometimes, yeah.

[1209] And so she'll be floating down the river and look.

[1210] And there'll be crocodiles.

[1211] they'll see her and get in and she said she was just apathetic she was just like well whatever and just kept floating and they never attacked her they never bit her did anything oh yeah isn't that crazy because it's like she's like the stingrays are the only one i have to um ones i have to worry about and she she just chance by pure chance that's fucking crazy yeah it really is so so here's the uh super disgusting trigger warning by day 10 the wound in her upper right arm.

[1212] Oh dear.

[1213] Yeah, it's filled with maggots.

[1214] No. Yes.

[1215] Sorry.

[1216] Look, if you want to go on vacation in the jungle, you have to hear this shit, Georgia.

[1217] I don't.

[1218] I've never wanted to do.

[1219] Well, I'll do that.

[1220] It's, it's so horrible that they're big.

[1221] She looks down and she sees it.

[1222] She knows it's bad because she knows.

[1223] Because it's kind of out of sight.

[1224] Then when she looks back, can you imagine?

[1225] You're just like, wow.

[1226] Yeah, that and the collarbone, I think, or the heart.

[1227] hardest parts for me so far so rough yeah um i mean for her too i it's really hard for me sitting the hardest is for you and we know that but she went through some stuff too i guess so she she's also smart enough to know that that's terrible because she could get blood poisoning and she could get her arm amputated if she does survive right so she knows like she has to find help and she has to like she has to keep up the pace on the 10th day she can barely stand um 10th fucking day on the 10th day 10 days which is so she's they they've the search and rescue has been called off for almost a week for five days so she can barely stand so she's and she's still trying to make her way down the river so she goes and she has to rest so she goes and looks there's a riverbank she walks over to it she sits down she doesn't even know how long she was there and she realizes she looks in front of her and realizes she's looking at a boat there's a boat in front of her she must have been delirious by then and she had a major concussion oh right a major concussion the entire time and yeah she delirious from starvation delirious from yeah yeah from maggie everything the plane crash she was in the whole fucking thing yeah so she kind of like comes to realizing there's a chance she's made it because she's looking at a boat and she said she had to make sure she wasn't hallucinating so she had to go up and touch it to make sure it was real because it was so unbelievable it's really there she looks on the boat she looks around she doesn't see any people she considers stealing the boat but she doesn't want to be a thief so instead she spots a path that's coming up from the riverbank and through the jungle and so she says it takes her hours to climb up this riverbank because she said the riverbank was about nine feet high oh my god and she's so weak that it took her she just had to try and try and finally she crawled up this bank and she followed the path and it led her to a little hut with a palm leaf roof and she just gets inside and goes to sleep and so she says when she's in there she realizes you're starving to death you have to eat something and these frogs start coming around but she recognizes that they're called um they're called um they're called i think they're called poison arrow frogs and they're those frogs they're poisonous and they're the ones that um that the native people used to put their juices from the frog's belly onto the arrows tips so that when they shoot people they like hallucinate and go crazy and they're poisonous they die yes So she knows that they're that poisonous and she still tries to eat one anyway because she's like, she's on the verge.

[1228] Yeah.

[1229] But they keep hopping away from her.

[1230] She said it was just, they would come and hop near her and then she'd be like, man, I'll just eat this.

[1231] And then they would hop away and she couldn't, she couldn't catch any.

[1232] Dicks.

[1233] So the morning of January 4th, this is 11 days since the crash.

[1234] She wakes up to the sound of voices outside this hut.

[1235] and in the documentary she says it sounded like the voices of angels so she comes out of the hut and she sees three men standing there she said they're all taken aback she describes the moment like this quote when they saw me they were alarmed and stopped talking yeah was it the maggots maggots just pouring out she said They thought I was a kind of water goddess, a figure from a local legend, who's a hybrid of a water dolphin, which I would imagine is just a dolphin.

[1236] Because land dolphins.

[1237] Land dolphins.

[1238] Oh, that's a hippo.

[1239] Skinless cats.

[1240] Skinless cats.

[1241] Did you mean hairless cats?

[1242] I did mean hairless cats.

[1243] Oh, no. It's late.

[1244] Okay.

[1245] The cats have hair.

[1246] no skin the organs are right under the hair oh god guys stop it I'm trying to talk about maggots okay let's say that dolphins it's a local legend it's a hybrid of a dolphin I think he meant a river dolphin yeah yeah yeah and a blonde white skinned woman so this was actually a real and she's blonde she's like a little German descent girl but she is of course lived in Peru all her life she introduces herself to the men in Spanish she finds out their local lumberman and she says what happened so they bring her they gather her up and they bring her to the put her on the boat they they go um 11 hours in the boat to get her back to their village just to any kind of yeah they get her there they but they in the meantime they put gasoline in her wounds to kill the maggots and to basically like get you know a little triage going.

[1247] Yes, exactly, but with gasoline.

[1248] And I'm sure she's like, who cares?

[1249] It's fine.

[1250] I can't feel anything.

[1251] So when the locals in their village, and when the men bring her to the village, the locals see her, her eyes are so red in bloodshot that all the locals recoil in fear and they accuse the men of bringing a forest demon back to their village.

[1252] Come.

[1253] She's like, I haven't I been through enough.

[1254] Yeah.

[1255] It's like, sorry, you really look like a demon.

[1256] Here's some vizene.

[1257] they these men convince a local pilot to fly julian to the hospital in Pucalpa so in this again in this documentary i'm just talking you through this documentary it's so good she goes back and she meets one the other two men have since died because it's been like 30 years she goes and gets to meet one of her rescuers and say thank you to him it's lovely and also it's the cutest thing we're not her dog's such a good filmmaker yeah because when he first like comes upon like the group of people where she's like you know coming to say hello there's all these little kids around of course right yeah it's just like village life and the camera swings over to like these little kids and then like two of them just walk away immediately and there's this little girl who's probably like eight and she's so cute and she just stands her kind of smiling and the camera just is on her and then she then she just starts giggling and she can't stop giggling and it is so it's so cute it's just beautiful moments like that he's so good a day after her rescue on January 5th, 1972, Julian's father gets a call telling him his daughter has been found alive and he goes to the hospital, they're finally reunited and Julianne says that neither of them were able to speak they just held each other.

[1258] Can you imagine?

[1259] No. I mean, he thought they were gone.

[1260] Yeah, and everything she had been through and it's like, it's over.

[1261] And that collarbone's still sticking out over.

[1262] During the hug for the next few days, Hans Willem Oh sorry So for the next few days Hans Wilhelm watches the news Just in case his wife is found alive too And listen to this When Julian recovers She joins in the search effort By leading the emergency responders Back to the crash site To look for her mom What?

[1263] Yeah, she goes back in But on January 12th, 1972 Maria's body is found And there is evidence that suggests that she She also may have survived the initial crash, but she was too injured to move or speak, and she died out there.

[1264] Oh, my God.

[1265] Yeah.

[1266] 91 people died in the crash of Lonsa Flight 508, including all six crew members and 85 passengers.

[1267] Julianne was the 86th passenger was the lone survivor.

[1268] And they start this documentary with this amazing.

[1269] kind of monument that they've built in in, I believe it's in Lima, Peru for all the people who died in Flight 508.

[1270] And some of the bodies are buried in this monument.

[1271] Like when you go to see it.

[1272] And it shows a map of where it crashed.

[1273] And it shows a map of her trail out of the jungle.

[1274] Wow.

[1275] And that monument is called Wings of Hope.

[1276] And that's why Warner Herzog titled his documentary that.

[1277] Flight 508 was Lonza's last flight before the entire company was checked down just 11 days after the incident.

[1278] So pretty much immediately, their operating permit was revoked due to their quote, intentional flight into hazardous weather conditions.

[1279] Also, that they, oh, these aren't motorcycles.

[1280] Oh, shit.

[1281] Also, 100 other things.

[1282] Yes.

[1283] Come on.

[1284] Yes.

[1285] After the media blitz settles down, Julianne returns to normal life.

[1286] She moves to Germany and goes to the University of Kiel in 1980 and she studied biology and zoology and she actually earns a doctorate.

[1287] Wow.

[1288] Yeah.

[1289] And she ends up marrying another biologist and they move back to Peru.

[1290] She's researching bats.

[1291] He's researching wasps.

[1292] That's a match made in heaven.

[1293] He's in the documentary with her.

[1294] That's so cute.

[1295] It's so cute.

[1296] In 1998, she participates in a documentary about the crash called Wings of Hope directed by Werner Hard Dog.

[1297] And in 2011, Julianne writes a book about her experiences with the crash and her survival entitled When I Fell from the Sky.

[1298] Just such a good title.

[1299] Yeah.

[1300] You want to read a book immediately?

[1301] You straight up.

[1302] Straight up.

[1303] You full on fell from the sky.

[1304] Yeah.

[1305] And that is the unbelievable survival story of 17 -year -old Julianne Kopke, the sole survivor of Lanzah Flight 508.

[1306] Oh my God.

[1307] Dude, dude, that's intense.

[1308] Dude, I love it.

[1309] The will to survive that she had to have to go that long is incredible.

[1310] I think everyone has it in them.

[1311] I think everyone has it in them.

[1312] I really do.

[1313] I do.

[1314] That's beautiful.

[1315] I do.

[1316] Yeah, you're right.

[1317] Your faith in humanity is beautiful.

[1318] Well, but I think that's like, it's lizard brain stuff where you just keep fighting.

[1319] Like, at that point, you'd have to.

[1320] That's true.

[1321] It's like, if alone and.

[1322] Wait until you can't walk anymore.

[1323] You might as well keep taking some steps.

[1324] Go.

[1325] And that is our philosophy about life, too.

[1326] It's like, if you just have one sandal, then walk with that foot first and make sure you don't step on a snake with your bare foot.

[1327] Watch out for stingrays.

[1328] Careful.

[1329] This stingrays will kill you.

[1330] That's right.

[1331] Good job.

[1332] Thank you.

[1333] Should we do some fucking hooray's?

[1334] Let's do it.

[1335] Okay, you want to go first?

[1336] Oh, sure.

[1337] I'd love to.

[1338] Do it.

[1339] I'd love to.

[1340] this is from Casa D. Cote on Instagram My fucking array is well on our daily walk with masks on because it's the right thing to do and so people won't silently judge us like Georgia it says that.

[1341] And Karen.

[1342] And we saw one of those heartwarming dog videos you see on social media but in real life.

[1343] An elderly woman's dog, I believe it was a border collie, walked down her front path to pick up her mail from the mailman.

[1344] The dog took the mail, walked back up the steps, and delivered the mail to her.

[1345] It was amazing.

[1346] We usually come home from these walks, disappointed in humanity in general, and then it says all caps.

[1347] Why are there so many packs of teenagers on skateboards with no masks?

[1348] Do they not have parents?

[1349] That it was nice to see something so simple and kind, love one another, and be safe, Stephanie and Redondo Beach.

[1350] Nice, Stephanie.

[1351] I won't judge you.

[1352] Thank you.

[1353] okay this one is from Lauren Michelle it's Lauren Michelle my fucking hooray is that today on my brother's 36th birthday we found out that his brain tumor shrunk the past nine months have been life changing for my family watching my brother go through brain surgery then chemo and radiation has been heart wrenching and incredibly emotional for all of us God but if anything has but if anything it has made our our close family even closer about a month ago my brother donned his Michael Jordan jersey while ringing the bell after completing his treatment and today while wearing his Chicago Bulls starter jersey from 1998 we received the news that his tumor had shrunk he's not completely out of the woods yet but things are looking up so fucking hooray for the best birthday gift my brother his twin oh it was one brother's birthday and they got the new good news about the other brother got it so fucking hooray for the best birthday gift my brother, his twin, received this year.

[1354] Fucking hooray for his amazingly supportive wife, who I'm honored to have for a sister -in -law.

[1355] And fucking hooray for the Jordan -era Chicago Bulls who have brought crazy luck to my family at this time, SSGM, and hug your siblings, Lauren.

[1356] That's beautiful, Lauren.

[1357] Amazing.

[1358] Yes.

[1359] This is from Justin.

[1360] And it's not a fucking hurry.

[1361] Well, it is later.

[1362] But it says, Fun fact, I was named after baby Jessica.

[1363] The story goes, my older sister was three years old.

[1364] And after my family watched the story, she kept saying, they got baby Jessica out of the well.

[1365] Now we need to get baby Jessica out of mom's tummy.

[1366] And then there's one of those emojis of, uh, you know.

[1367] Thank God, because my father originally wanted me to be named tranquilia.

[1368] Right.

[1369] Tranquilina.

[1370] Tranquilina.

[1371] Uh -huh.

[1372] And then there's an emoji of a hand slap to the face.

[1373] But Jessica stuck, thanks to my sister, who wouldn't stop calling me baby Jessica after that.

[1374] Fucking array for big sisters who pick better names than my parents do.

[1375] Tranquilinia.

[1376] What's wrong with tranquilinia?

[1377] It's so soothing and relaxing.

[1378] It is.

[1379] Okay.

[1380] This is sent by MFF.

[1381] M -O -7 murdery now?

[1382] Okay.

[1383] James Bond.

[1384] Since March 16th, I have been at home with both kids nine and eleven full -time.

[1385] So we've been doing, yeah, really.

[1386] So we've been doing new activities to keep ourselves busy while still at home.

[1387] One of them is chalking up the driveway.

[1388] At first, it was all of us.

[1389] Being that the kids get bored easily, they left the art activity and I fell deeper into the activity.

[1390] And then in parentheses, better than doing laundry and dishes.

[1391] Now I am a chalk legend of the neighbor. hood.

[1392] I have created some easy ones.

[1393] I had created some easy ones at first, but I have leveled up.

[1394] I have a lot of neighbors looking forward to the new pieces.

[1395] Also, I made a new friend while doing this.

[1396] She is a true muralist.

[1397] She's come over a couple of times and was extremely generous and made two art pieces.

[1398] I wish I could upload the photos.

[1399] She did a real.

[1400] It's just like, I wish I could, but I can't.

[1401] No, but it's, yeah.

[1402] She did a realistic vulture and realistic butterfly.

[1403] I have done a tree frog, a sea turtle hatching from an egg, and a funny shark bird.

[1404] That's right, a bird with a shark's head.

[1405] I saw a meme of it, and I couldn't resist.

[1406] Good thing about this art is, every time it rains, I get a new canvas.

[1407] Thank you, ladies, for what y 'all are doing and take care.

[1408] We will be chalking it up even after this goddamn pandemic is over.

[1409] Yours, Cheryl.

[1410] I love it.

[1411] So good.

[1412] Also, it's like you're forced into these things.

[1413] And it's like, yeah, that's awesome that you're doing chalk murals in your driveway.

[1414] Yeah, I bet it's like so stress relieving.

[1415] Can you please do us a favor and do a, what is it, a river dolphin?

[1416] Please do a water dolphin or a river dolphin.

[1417] Whatever makes most sense to you.

[1418] My last one is from J .C. Nicole to ease.

[1419] My fucking hooray is that after four years of working full time and going to college full time, I finally paid off my car.

[1420] I'm only 20 and I've learned responsibility the hard way.

[1421] I have to remind myself that even amongst the chaos going on now, I am still capable of accomplishing things.

[1422] Every week, you and Karen remind me that even though we're in a pandemic, it's not a productivity contest.

[1423] That's fucking right.

[1424] I'm proud of myself and I'm proud of everyone who is making it through life right now.

[1425] Hell yeah.

[1426] Nice.

[1427] Okay, this one is from formaldehyde.

[1428] That's a good one.

[1429] My fucking hooray is that I didn't do shit I didn't leave my house for anything other than groceries I didn't let my kids flout the common sense rules that are in place for everyone's safety I stayed home ate the same boring ass food that we've been eating for eight goddamn weeks watched every episode of Golden Girls for the millionth time kicked my family's ass in settlers of Catan and Rummy Cube Oh I fucking love Rummy Cube so much I forgot about that one yeah it's a good game survived the shit show that is e -learning for a first grader, a sixth grader, and a 10th grader.

[1430] Oh, honey.

[1431] Fuck, mom.

[1432] And most importantly, I didn't contribute to the spread of COVID -19.

[1433] Stay sexy and stay the fuck at home.

[1434] For Malda Heidi, you win across the board.

[1435] And we want to say that stay at home and be safe is for the people who can't stay at home, for the essential workers who have to be at the grocery store, who have to be, you know, the cops and the first responders and the hospital workers and all the people who cannot stay at home, we, the people working at Domino's Pizza.

[1436] Totally.

[1437] Or the people who have to work at Instacart right now because they need the fucking money so they can pay for their families to live.

[1438] Yes.

[1439] Let's respect those people and stay at home if we can.

[1440] Exactly.

[1441] And be like, please be like for Maldehydy and stay.

[1442] home and don't do shit and play gin rummy if a mother of three young kids can fucking do it and like make it interesting do it you can't you can do it we can all do we love you guys we hope we're helping during these crazy times and we we got your back and thank you guys for listening to us and letting us still do this insane thing that we get to do yes we're so all your support yeah and it's especially these days it's such a fun thing to look forward to it is it's great thank you all so much and stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye me me do you want a cookie okay so this is pretty exciting apple tv plus's new crime drama is called defending jacob and it follows an assistant d .a whose life is turned upside down when his son is accused of murder so the assistant d .a is played by chris evans and it also stars Michelle Dockery and Jaden Martel.

[1443] Everyone is so good in it.

[1444] It's a limited series and they play a family whose fate hangs in the balance of the legal system.

[1445] Right.

[1446] So Apple asked us to partner with them to create this special content to give our listeners a chance to put themselves in the Barber family's shoes.

[1447] That's right.

[1448] And we were lucky enough to sit down with the show's screenwriter Mark Bomback as well as the director of Morton Tildum, who they're both so talented.

[1449] And we're going to have a little deeper dive into defending Jacob.

[1450] So enjoy.

[1451] Okay.

[1452] We are very, very excited to be talking to screenwriter Mark Baumbach and director Morton Tildum.

[1453] They have their new show on Apple TV Plus.

[1454] It's a crime drama called Defending Jacob.

[1455] Congratulations, you guys.

[1456] Thanks for talking to us today.

[1457] Our pleasure.

[1458] Oh, pleasure.

[1459] Thank you so much for having us.

[1460] Aaron and Georgia, it's so nice to meet you.

[1461] Like, I've been a murderer for like a while.

[1462] Like I...

[1463] So?

[1464] Really?

[1465] Yeah.

[1466] In fact, while working on the show, because I live in New York, I used to drive home on the weekends.

[1467] And very often your podcast would be the thing I listened to as I was driving home.

[1468] Oh, my goodness.

[1469] So honored.

[1470] Yeah, thank you.

[1471] Do you want to tell us a little bit about how you guys got involved in this project?

[1472] Sure.

[1473] This is Mark talking.

[1474] So I was sent the book that this show is based on, really responded to it.

[1475] And so I wrote a pilot script and an outline of what I thought those first a few episodes could be.

[1476] and was talking with the producers and we were talking about who might be a good director to bring in and Morton's name came up and I was overjoyed.

[1477] I thought bringing his Scandinavian sensibility to this and his artistry would be a great fit.

[1478] I love making stories which is all about character which are great.

[1479] I don't believe in like people are inherently good or inherently evil.

[1480] We're all kind of exist in this weird place in between was like, where is our moral contact?

[1481] What are we willing to do?

[1482] I think that's what makes this show so different is that it's not a typical who done it.

[1483] It's got those little nuances where, you know, you think to yourself, what would I do in that situation?

[1484] Not having kids, I'm like, turn that, turn them in, which of course wouldn't really happen.

[1485] So what do you guys think this sets this apart from the typical who done it?

[1486] Is it the morality of it?

[1487] Is it family?

[1488] It's very much about that parent -child relationship and putting that to a stress test.

[1489] And, you know, oftentimes we live our life.

[1490] lives with little fractures in our relationships, whether it's with our parents or with our spouse.

[1491] And we can go a very long time that way.

[1492] And then something like a crime occurs and really puts it to the test and suddenly starts to rip it all apart.

[1493] Well, and that is interesting because we all like to think that we are good people and moral people and that we'd make the right decision and how you would start rationalizing what you will do that's different than if it was a normal situation.

[1494] You know what I mean?

[1495] Like suddenly it's just like, yeah, I can I can see hiding that.

[1496] I can see pretending you didn't know that.

[1497] I can see, you know, getting rid of evidence or whatever because it's your family member.

[1498] You guys got like an insanely stellar cast for this show.

[1499] You know, Chris Evans, Michelle Dockery, Jaden Martel.

[1500] So it's Captain America, Lady Mary and the child hero from it like every, you know, every person that walks on screen, you're like, whoa, whoa.

[1501] We went into this, not thinking, like, let's get the biggest name possible.

[1502] We want to, who will be perfect for this?

[1503] Who do we really would love that?

[1504] And I think we also wanted to cast a little bit out of the box.

[1505] And then I have to be Chris Evans, which we're now, I think, after shooting with it, like, it couldn't be anybody else.

[1506] Yeah.

[1507] Which is so perfect in the part.

[1508] And Michelle came on, and we both love Michelle in, of course, Donton Abbey, but also Godless, where she has an American accent.

[1509] Amazing.

[1510] Really impressed us.

[1511] And Jaden is just uncanny.

[1512] He actually auditioned for the part.

[1513] And when we saw it, it was like, it was so, it just jumped out of it.

[1514] And it was obvious that he has to be Jack.

[1515] Because he kind of has the hardest part.

[1516] He has to add a little layer on top of his performance, because you never really supposed to figure out what's actually going on inside of this character.

[1517] And I think also he has to add that layer of being a teenager and never fully answering your parents' questions with anything more than a nod.

[1518] And he does that so well.

[1519] It's very fascinating to think about that part where I'm like, am I judging him because I don't like his personality?

[1520] So I'm attributing like, yeah, absolutely.

[1521] Or, you know, or is that what's happened sometimes where it's these surface things that you're actually putting on somebody that could be completely innocent, right?

[1522] Yeah, that's a great thing about teenagers.

[1523] It's suspects is that their behavior is very dubious.

[1524] Like they're just, and so no matter what he says or does, especially in Jake, Jaden is just, as Martin was saying, uncannily gifted at being enigmatic in a way that feels very plausible and very appropriate for his age.

[1525] And, you know, that's the subjective fear we're trying to instill in the audience is that you're at the mercy of his performance in the same way his parents are, where you're trying to determine, is this just normal taciturn teenage talk, or is this someone feeling something?

[1526] Yeah, definitely.

[1527] I think one thing everyone wants to know is, can you tell us one, you know, negative thing about Chris Evans, so we're not so in love with him?

[1528] Yeah, there's got to be a downside.

[1529] You do almost look for a chink in the armor because he is really a great person inside and he's blessed with these bizarrely good looks, and he's very humble about them.

[1530] So it sounds totally like a cliche, but I really can't think of anything.

[1531] It's really hard.

[1532] Well, Mark and Morton, thank you guys so much for talking to us today.

[1533] This has been so fun.

[1534] You have to follow at Apple TV on Instagram and Twitter to join the discussion about defending Jacob.

[1535] Each week, they're going to post a crucial question about that week's episode, so you can find out what you and other viewers would actually do in those situations.

[1536] And watch Descending Jacob on Apple TV Plus every Friday.

[1537] Thanks, guys.

[1538] Thanks, you guys.