S5 E10: Accomplices to Our Own Abuse | Rachel

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something was wrong covers mature topics that can be triggering.

[11] Topics such as emotional, physical, and sexual abuse.

[12] Please, as always, use caution when listening.

[13] Opinions of guests on the show are their own and don't necessarily reflect my views or the views of this podcast.

[14] Please note, I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[15] If you or someone you love is being abused, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[16] If you or someone you love is experiencing a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, please call 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[17] For more resources, visit something was wrong .com Thank you so much.

[18] That first night and day in Hawaii is like the most like surreal magical thing that I've ever like experienced.

[19] Like I remember we got there and it was super dark and we were so jet lagged.

[20] I think we gained a day going there because I think there were 12 hours ahead from where we were.

[21] So we got there in the dark and we were staying at this little house that had like a guest house.

[22] We were all staying there for a week until we could find like an actual rental.

[23] place.

[24] So we got there in the pitch black, couldn't see anything, very disorientated.

[25] And then we woke up pretty early, I think around like 4 .30 because of jet lag.

[26] And you just woke up to sounds.

[27] You could hear birds and all kinds of craziness.

[28] And I remember I walked out and we were in this little village called Waimano.

[29] And it's on the windward side of Oahu.

[30] And I walked out and it was just massive green cliffs jutting up into the sky.

[31] And then they had like waterfalls coming down them and there was mist and there was palm trees and parrots.

[32] And like I have lived in Scotland my entire life at this point and being so sheltered.

[33] I was just mouth dropped open, could not believe what I was looking at.

[34] It was incredible.

[35] Where the house was in Waimanalo, it was right next to Waimanalla Beach, which is beyond beautiful.

[36] It was like out of this world.

[37] And I think that's part of what made the move so exciting.

[38] And everyone was like really ready to just like forget everything that had happened because it really did feel like you were in another world.

[39] That really, I think, shot a lot of excitement and energy into us that kind of propelled us through the craziness.

[40] Because it was really crazy.

[41] I mean, we just packed up our entire lives and moved to this tropical island.

[42] And my parents found us a place and we were sleeping on mattresses for the first month because we had to, like, find beds and stuff.

[43] And we'd had some stuff shipped, and that didn't get there for, like, three months.

[44] And so, like, the first couple of months, it was kind of just you were hanging on for dear life, just riding the roller coaster, really, kind of holding on.

[45] And the church that we were a part of, I think at that time, it was like 16 ,000.

[46] And there was always something going on.

[47] There was always a missions trip.

[48] There was always an event.

[49] It really did feel like you just jumped on to a moving freight train and, like, held on while your nails, like, popped off.

[50] And it was a lot of fun.

[51] And it was this really weird juxtaposition as the more like we kind of got involved and the more we were around other people and around other leaders, the more and more became, you had this sense of we can't mess this up.

[52] This is so good and we're screwed if we mess this up.

[53] And so for us, kids, that was very much like, don't tell anyone anything ever.

[54] I don't know me well at all.

[55] I think you know me, church and like a friendly church and, like, friendly atmosphere.

[56] I mean, the Hawaiian culture is just incredibly beautiful and loving and kind and I mean, in general.

[57] And my father, I think, really responded to that.

[58] But he, as much as he, like, controlled us with fear, I think he was so struck by the thought that, like, if anyone really knew what was happening, like, he would be instantly rejected and, like, cast out.

[59] And so he, I think, was really coming from a place of fear.

[60] Did he— Sorry.

[61] Did he give you, like, scripted language to use when he— One of the things that I experienced from my dad was prepping because he was rather paranoid about like exposure of things.

[62] And so one of the things he would do was like give a script before we were in social situations or like if somebody was going to come visit or see us at the house or something, it would be like, if they ask you this, you're to say X, Y, Z. Were your parents like that?

[63] Or did they just say like don't answer any questions if they ask you anything?

[64] Yeah.

[65] In the beginning, yes.

[66] Honestly, by the time we got to Hawaii, we were.

[67] were so used to doing that, we were self -policing ourselves.

[68] And there was, like, when we started to get involved, me, my sister, Hannah, we became a part of, like, the middle school youth group, and then we became, they had this, like, junior leaders, and then you got old enough to become a leader, and, like, it was all very exciting, and you felt very important.

[69] I think it was just a really good way to get people to help out.

[70] When we became closer, because that was when we, like, really began to develop relationships, with adults that we trusted and cared for, like youth pastor and his wife were really lovely.

[71] And our parents weren't there because youth ministry happened at the same time that the church was happening.

[72] And when we started to get close to them, and my parents began to notice that, you know, they really cared about us and we cared about them and there was that option for that to happen.

[73] That's when, like, it was always done with this, like, euphemism of don't say something that the devil could use against you or use against the family, use wisdom.

[74] And there was always this idea growing up that, like, something could be fine and not necessarily wrong, but it wasn't wise to say it.

[75] And so that was the verbiage they used a lot with us.

[76] It was like, no, I don't think it would be wise to, you know, or like, just be very careful, you know, ask God for wisdom.

[77] And so you would just always have this thing of like, we have to be so careful about what we say because the devil is just waiting to, like, destroy our family.

[78] And anything, you know, even if it said to another Christian could like do that.

[79] And so we have to like protect ourselves and protect the family.

[80] So again, it was like they were definitely trying to protect themselves, but it was done under this kind of like euphemistic guise of religion and outside forces as opposed to, you know, it's like it wasn't them telling us not to tell anyone or telling us not to get close to anyone.

[81] It was like, you know, we just had to be careful that we didn't let something slip from our past that God had already forgiven us for and that we were totally fine because the devil could use that against us.

[82] Like, that was always a big thing.

[83] Like, my mother, like, we would bring up, like, dad keeps apologizing and dad keeps hitting us.

[84] It was like, you've already forgiven him.

[85] You don't get to bring that up again.

[86] Like, it's gone and forgotten about.

[87] We don't talk about it anymore.

[88] And so they use that as well to be like, you know, it's, it's almost, it's sinful to keep talking about it and keep complaining about it.

[89] Because, you know, it was between you, dad and God, and you've already forgiven dad, and God's already forgiven dad.

[90] and so it would be sinful to bring it up to anyone else.

[91] And that's how my mother, I think, controlled us a lot of the time.

[92] And I think because we were in such a pattern of stuff happening and, like, whenever stuff happened, it could be like the nastiest thing ever.

[93] And all I wanted was things to go back to normal and to have my parents or my dad specifically like me again.

[94] And so he could have done the most horrible thing in the world.

[95] But the instant he came up and apologized, I was like, oh, my gosh, great, fantastic.

[96] Let's get back to being friends.

[97] Woo.

[98] I think it was in Hawaii, probably because we were around so many other people that I knew were like hashtag good Christians and that, you know, weren't the bad people.

[99] And I noticed him still coming up with more excuses as to why these people couldn't be trusted or as to why, you know, what this person said, you know, wasn't quite correct that I began to feel like, oh, something's wrong here or, oh, I have a good relationship with this other adult.

[100] And they, I feel like I can trust them.

[101] I don't think that they're going to lie to me or I don't think they're going to break my trust.

[102] And I think once that became more of a thing in our lives, and again, you know, when you've been isolated for so long, you don't really have any other context, but your parents.

[103] And this was the first time that we had another context.

[104] And I think at first, my father wanted us to be super involved, make friends with everyone, like get to know everybody.

[105] And then after a while, I think he began to realize that everyone really liked us kids.

[106] and I think he wanted us to get involved in become prominent so that, you know, that would also make him prominent.

[107] You know, the more liked we were, the more like the family was in general and the more attention we would get or the more established we would seem in the community.

[108] And once he realized that, yes, that was happening, but also other people were talking to us that had other ideas or other, you know, we were getting exposed to different ways of life.

[109] It was like it would clamp down.

[110] it's like a loss of control.

[111] Yes.

[112] And it was always in like the most unexpected ways.

[113] But it was so subtle and we were so used to being like, we're the, we were so used to saying like, well, someone could believe all of this and this and this.

[114] But they're not a good person because they don't believe this one thing or because they do believe this one thing.

[115] And we were so used to that and like someone not being a good person or someone being dangerous, you know, or someone just bad influence.

[116] So it was very easy for them to just, you know, any time that they felt like someone.

[117] was like that or could be that kind of influence in our lives.

[118] It was like, well, no, that person's not a good person or that.

[119] I don't trust that or I heard this or blah, blah, blah.

[120] So that was also a very effective way of controlling us because we trusted them and believed for the most part, you know, everything they said.

[121] And even if we didn't, at this point, you know, if we were starting to have suspicions, we were smart enough to not get too close because, you know, my father would find out.

[122] I always say as to people, like, if it was all abuse and all nastiness, it would be honestly easier to process.

[123] But there were times where we had a lot of fun and he genuinely was my best friend and we, you know, were peas in a pod and whatnot.

[124] And so it wasn't even like I want this to end.

[125] It was, I don't want you to be mad at me and I want us to be friends again.

[126] I want you to love me. So that, I think, made it all the more pernicious and all the more layered to the control and to the amount because I mean at this point all they had to do is make suggestions or be like I don't know about this or I just you know okay whatever and because I was so desperate for the approval of my father and you know my mother sometimes not so much but my father definitely like I would like bend over backwards unless it was something I truly thought was wrong and then you know you couldn't push me it's all you know and so you can have a a relationship with someone who is abusive where they are also lovely.

[127] Yeah, like the concept of love bombing.

[128] Like that was very much like the abuse would be staggered.

[129] It would be like a really bad outburst and then we'd have like a come to Jesus moment, you know, where my dad, because my dad, every time it happened, he'd be like, nope, that was 100 % wrong.

[130] I should not have done that.

[131] Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[132] And things would be fine for a couple months.

[133] And then something else would happen again.

[134] And so it was just, it was the abuse cycle.

[135] Yeah, yeah, 100%.

[136] But you, because I was watching someone that I trusted, you know, come to me and apologize, you know, hashtag like a man, I honestly, growing up, I used to talk about how much I respected my father because no matter what he did, he would always look me in the eye, tell me he was wrong and apologize to me. And it was only later that I realized that he would look in the eye, apologize to me and then still hurt me. And that the looking in the eye and apologizing didn't actually matter if the abuse continued.

[137] But it took so long for me to realize that.

[138] Like, I genuinely let so much respect for my father because of that very thing.

[139] When you're the type of person that when you apologize, you mean it.

[140] It's hard to understand that somebody else could be apologizing and seem really, really sincere and really just be doing it as manipulation so that you're not mad at them.

[141] Yeah.

[142] I mean, you don't understand the concept of that.

[143] I mean, especially when you're a child and it's your parent, you're supposed to be able to trust them.

[144] and they my mother but more especially my father like we were so like you know I'm telling you stories of his youth most likely word for word because we heard them so many times that I knew his story and I knew the pain and the anguish and I don't know if he did this on purpose or if it was just a subconscious thing like a self -defense thing but we were constantly groomed to feel sorry and want to protect our dad especially emotionally it was like he had been through so much and had gone through so much and we were so lucky that he was only like flipping out this much and I would lose my mind trying to think of ways to like make my dad happy or to not even like to make him happy but it sounds so crazy but to like protect his emotional well -being and I would cry about that you know I could always sense that my father was depressed like before we went to Hawaii like he was depressed all the time and it broke my heart like i felt like i lived my life for him which is insane because this is also happening during the time that my friend died and he's being horrific to me and i hated him and even even in the moments where i hated him the most and was the most disconnected for him i was still trying to take care of him yeah so i mean we got to Hawaii and this has been his dream for years and we're finally here and he's so happy and he's living his best life and all you want to do is protect that and so you know when they say hey you know people might not understand our background or you know people here they didn't have the rough life that we had or they didn't have the struggles that we had they're not going to understand if you tell them everything you're like of course yeah I mean yeah we've been through craziness and that doesn't mean we're bad it just means that they might not get it and yeah of course we're not going to tell them So it was like we were made accomplices to it, to our own abuse.

[145] And we protected and perpetuated our own abuse as much as the victim can.

[146] And we would go out of the way to like, like if anyone had anything to say about our parents, like we would go out of the way to defend them.

[147] I'm Dan Tversky.

[148] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[149] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[150] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[151] Like, I can't.

[152] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[153] It's like doubling and tripling, and it's all these girls.

[154] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[155] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[156] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[157] Yeah, well, yeah.

[158] No, it's hysteria.

[159] It's all in your head.

[160] It's not physical.

[161] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[162] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[163] Or is it something else entirely?

[164] Something's wrong here.

[165] Something's not right.

[166] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[167] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[168] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[169] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[170] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[171] She had been under the influence that she left him there.

[172] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston, police officer John O 'Keefe.

[173] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[174] What happens next?

[175] Depends on who you ask.

[176] Was it a crime of passion?

[177] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[178] This was clearly an intentional act.

[179] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[180] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[181] If you believe the defense, theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[182] Everyone had an opinion.

[183] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[184] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[185] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[186] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

[187] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[188] That was been the crazy thing to kind of look back and as a child just feel so frustrated or feeling like you didn't understand what they wanted and what they wanted seemed to change every single time.

[189] And why didn't they, how could they believe in something so strongly that it would drive them to hurt us, you know, out of compassion for our souls or trying to stop us being sinful?

[190] but not believe in it enough to actually, like, live it out.

[191] Yeah.

[192] And I think that was always kind of in the back of my head, but it didn't crystallize until I left for college, really.

[193] And I think that's probably the way it is for most people.

[194] Like, you don't truly, you can't see what's really going on when you're in the situation.

[195] You have to kind of get some distance.

[196] Oh, 100%.

[197] You know, see it from the mountain.

[198] 100%.

[199] Yeah, when you're in it, it's so hard to, to, and especially when you're a child, or a teen or a young adult, it's, you just don't have the wisdom and the life experience yet to differentiate.

[200] And when adults are telling you things, you believe them, especially when it's your parents.

[201] You believe that they love, you know, they are doing what's best for you.

[202] It seemed that whenever we would really like pray for something, stuff would happen.

[203] And so you always had that in the back of your mind of like, it doesn't matter what I go through.

[204] I remember this one time where, you know, we prayed and God somehow made like $600.

[205] Someone, someone, you know, gave it to us or blah, blah, blah.

[206] And so moving to Hawaii, again, felt like a miraculous thing.

[207] And so you kind of felt like God was on your side.

[208] This was his plan.

[209] And so why would you be a vessel for the devil or for the enemy to wreck that?

[210] And, you know, this is God's plan.

[211] And God's plan means that it's going to be good for you, but it's also going to be good for a lot of other people that could get saved because of you.

[212] So you definitely better not mess up the plan um it's so much responsibility for a child it's so so much so much i'm honestly surprised i didn't self -harm more um i mean i did in other ways but um yeah probably more like emotionally and mentally i self -harmed myself after the middle school we moved to the high school ministries and they were doing a small group and we were part of that small group and that was when I, well, I didn't realize it was explained to me that it's not normal for you to sit in a circle of people talking for an hour and not say anything and just sit there and listen.

[213] I was perfectly happy just sitting with my friends and listening to them talk and they said, Rachel, you have to like join in the like the conversation like say something.

[214] And I, you like, I thought you would have just told me that pigs could fly like i was like i'm sorry what what do you mean they're like joining the conversation say something i'm like i don't have anything to say i don't know what to say like i until they said that i didn't realize i was doing anything crazy i was just enjoying being around people that were making jokes and they were chatting and laughing but apparently sitting silently smiling is weird um but i i mean i love that they welcomed you to share your opinion Yeah, no, and they were, I mean, we were kind of adopted by a pair of siblings there and they were a boy and a girl and we hung out with them a lot and she was the one who was like, Rachel, like, you know, talk and bless her heart, you know, I was like, I don't, and she was like, okay, always very grateful for her.

[215] She accepted me in my weirdness.

[216] And so I was very much like aware of that all of a sudden and then like trying to fit in, but not really.

[217] knowing how and me and Hannah were in the same age group there so you know it was like the two of us sticking together and then we kind of make friends with someone and it was very much I felt like how you would kind of make friends with people in like elementary school not necessarily like an actual like deep relationship with people or like how you would have close friendships I think and we only saw them at church like you we never hung up with them outside of church or I mean my parents wanted to be whatever the church was doing they were there all the time and So we were at church like four or five days a week, but that was where all of our friends were and everything.

[218] So we were very much happy to do that.

[219] And in part of the small group, they were doing like a series on something and they wanted people to share their testimonies.

[220] And they asked me and I was like, oh, man, here we go.

[221] And I took it like very seriously.

[222] And like I really like thought about it, sat down, like wrote it out and dad was so proud of me. Like he was so proud that I had been asked to share my testimony.

[223] and blah, blah, blah.

[224] And he said, you want me to come, or you're going to be too nervous?

[225] So I was like, I don't know.

[226] I think I'll be too nervous.

[227] He said, okay, I won't come.

[228] And so I got up there and I was remarkably calm.

[229] Sometimes I think I'm better at prepared speeches than I am like face -to -face communication.

[230] And I went through it.

[231] And I basically said stuff around like, you know, is one of those testimonies where it's someone who like, I've been in church all my life and, you know, my parents raised me to believe in God and doing this thing and going through the motions.

[232] And then, you know, I realized that I didn't really have a relationship with God.

[233] And I said something like, my parents tried their best and they were fantastic and they really gave us like what we needed to understand God.

[234] But I didn't really actually engage with it.

[235] And I was saying something around the time.

[236] Like it was only after like my had friend had died and I kind of decided, well, I have to keep going with this and decided to like really actively be a part or engage in my face like I was in Hawaii that I felt like I was like understanding God or understanding what it meant to be a Christian.

[237] That was like the basis of it.

[238] And I did truly believe that at that time.

[239] I did.

[240] I think what I was doing was learning how to actually, I don't know, I wouldn't say I ever truly engaged with God, if there is a God in the way that people think of it, but I definitely learned how to engage in Christianity for myself outside of my parents.

[241] And in my brain, I mean, I don't know how you hear that, but I heard it as like very respectful.

[242] Like, you know, my parents did their best and they gave us everything, but as Christians, you're supposed to have your own relationship with God.

[243] I, of, you know, because of my fault, didn't realize that I was living my Christian life through my parents' faith and didn't have one of my own.

[244] And so for me, my testimony was me coming to that realization and actively deciding to pursue a relationship with Christ on my own.

[245] And it was received very well.

[246] And when we left youth group, I found out my father had come up to the room where I gave my testimony and had been listening behind the door.

[247] And at the time, I was, like, giddy because I thought, oh, I asked him not to, and he wanted to respect me, but he was so excited he wanted to hear anyway, and to have my father be excited to hear what I want to say and be proud enough to come and, like, hear me speak was, like, massive to me. And so I felt, like, on top of the world, like, felt like I had, had really stepped out and like told my truth and had spoken as an independent person and had been accepted and my father was proud of me for doing that and we got into the car and I remember asking him like what did you think and I was like excited and nervous and he said it doesn't matter like what you're saying or what did he say I don't remember how we got into it but he basically said to me, you are never, ever to dishonor your parents.

[248] Like, it's good for you to tell the truth and whatnot of what happened, but you sinned by disrespecting us and dishonoring us.

[249] And you dishonored us.

[250] You dishonored us by saying that, you know, we did our best, but you weren't really a true Christian.

[251] I was thinking as you were telling the story of your testimony, like, what is she their PR agent?

[252] Uh -huh.

[253] Like, for a child to have that even a to be that way and to go above and beyond and then that's the reaction?

[254] I was so stunned.

[255] I couldn't speak.

[256] Like, I was shocked into like silent tears.

[257] And I don't know if you ever had this growing up where if you showed emotion or showed like tears or sadness, it would often make things worse and they would get aggravated because you were like crying.

[258] Always.

[259] It was like, oh, of course you're trying.

[260] Like, how dare you have a response?

[261] even to this day I can body shake sop silently to where it's like if you weren't looking at me you wouldn't know I was crying and I just remember being absolutely shocked into those sobs and feeling like it was the high I went from the highest high to the lowest low like I had it was something I was terrified to do and I had thought through it and I had you know felt like I had it was something something that was my own and it was something that I truly believed about my life and I had really gone in deep and made sure to, you know, mention everyone that had helped me along the way and talk about the different complexities of, you know, being grown, like, for me, it was like, it, it was important to talk about how you could grow up in church, but not have a true understanding of it because you were surmounted by it all the time.

[262] But apparently...

[263] Which is like super, super common for people to give that testimony in the church.

[264] Like, I've heard that testimony a hundred times at camp and school.

[265] But because I didn't say that, you know, I was, I don't know.

[266] I don't even, it was like, what did he even want you to say differently?

[267] It's like, what's bizarre.

[268] I think he, I think it was I, because I even said that like they tried their best, but I didn't really, like, believe until later that was somehow making them look bad like I was supposed to have been a true believer from the start I don't know but it was one of the most traumatic times in my life and it was a time where I felt like I had taken some agency in my life and for my own story and what I believed and thought and I was yelled at for exposing something of my parents or dishonoring my parents in what I said.

[269] And that, again, that was like a big thing of like, wait a second.

[270] Like, what did I actually do that was wrong?

[271] And why is it wrong for, you know, like, what is it?

[272] It doesn't say anything about you that I didn't believe until later.

[273] I mean, yeah, you're a child.

[274] You grew up in it and then you learn how to interact with it on your own.

[275] Like, it was one those moments where I was like, well, this doesn't even make sense.

[276] Like, I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything wrong.

[277] And like, it was this thing of like, you embarrassed me. That was basically what it came down to you.

[278] And shaming you.

[279] Like you said, you're in this like high moment.

[280] And I know like it's so difficult, especially for some people to like publicly speak.

[281] And you have this like adrenaline that happens afterwards.

[282] Like you're like almost like a tingling sensation and that feeling of being proud and like, oh my God, you did it when you've lost sleep for weeks thinking about it and what you wanted to say and being so careful and it's such a vulnerable thing.

[283] And then to have him not only deny your wish for him not to be there.

[284] So you think that you're probably having a different level of safety.

[285] I was safe.

[286] You thought you would be okay.

[287] And he took that.

[288] And then he made you feel bad.

[289] Yeah.

[290] Well, and it was this thing of like, again, he was embarrassed, but I had sinned.

[291] by dishonoring my parents, I had gone against God by dishonoring my parents.

[292] And so it was this added level of failure.

[293] Especially when you're like hustling for your worthiness from your parents and you want them to look at you and respect you and you're trying so hard.

[294] This was about a year into us being in Hawaii and I was just really starting to find my like my footing with other people and like with the other like kids and beginning to like find a sense.

[295] of myself and a sense of confidence in myself.

[296] And that like, that like set me back a couple of years, honestly.

[297] Like I shut down again after that.

[298] And I was terrified to tell anyone anything.

[299] And again, I was like, I didn't know what I'd done wrong.

[300] And part of me still trusted them.

[301] So when he says, like, you dishonored us and you made us look bad, I'm like, oh, God, did I screw it up for us?

[302] Are we going to have to go home?

[303] Did I destroy our families?

[304] dream.

[305] Did I destroy this for our family?

[306] It's so unfair.

[307] And again, it just feels like him trying to use emotional manipulation to keep you small and quiet.

[308] Very much so.

[309] And I think he wanted to live in the fantasy, his own fantasy, that everything was great.

[310] And I mentioned something that maybe reminded him that there were times where it wasn't so great.

[311] And he was not having that.

[312] Which again, I think it's an example of that thing of like seeing your child as an extension of yourself and part of yourself.

[313] And so whenever it doesn't benefit you you lash out and attack it.

[314] Next time.

[315] Something was wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[316] Music on this episode from Gladrags.

[317] Check out their album, Wonder If you'd like to help support the growth of something was wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, and support at patreon .com slash something was wrong.

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[320] Thank you so much for listening.

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[324] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[325] I'm Sachi Cole.

[326] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[327] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away.

[328] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King and no real product to push.

[329] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while Steve.

[330] stealing from them behind their backs.

[331] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[332] Follow Scam Fluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[333] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.