Malcolm Gladwell

[0] My name is Malcolm, and I feel pressured, and I've crossed out about.

[1] I don't know why you guys have about there.

[2] I feel pressured into being Conan O 'Brien's friend.

[3] Back to school, ring the bell, brandy shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens.

[4] I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[5] Yes, I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[6] Hey there.

[7] Welcome to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[8] This is Conan O 'Brien.

[9] Just making that clear, in case it wasn't.

[10] I don't know how identifiable my voice is.

[11] It's very identifiable.

[12] Yes, I suppose.

[13] I reached a certain level of fame.

[14] Oh, God.

[15] Anyway, well, I'm a one -name celebrity.

[16] Beyonce?

[17] Wow.

[18] Manson.

[19] Nope.

[20] You say Conan, people think, right?

[21] They don't think Conan the Barbarian anymore.

[22] I mean, I hate saying this.

[23] I think you're right.

[24] Yes, okay.

[25] Thank you.

[26] And by the way, let me introduce.

[27] That's Sonam of Sessian, my assistant.

[28] Yes.

[29] Who hates giving me my props.

[30] Just hates it.

[31] You hate giving me my props.

[32] Well, there are no, very few props to give.

[33] Oh.

[34] No, no, I open the box of props.

[35] There's not a lot of props in there for someone.

[36] I'm not going to do a one -sided props.

[37] I'm not going to do that.

[38] I'm not going to give you props if you don't give me any props.

[39] I give you a prop, but you have to give me props.

[40] You're, what?

[41] Yeah.

[42] That doesn't make any sense.

[43] Oh, for God's sake.

[44] Let's just both say we deserve some props.

[45] And Sona, thank you for being here.

[46] You're of great help to me on the podcast.

[47] You really are.

[48] That's nice.

[49] More so than as my assistant in real life.

[50] Come on, dude.

[51] Don't you think that's true?

[52] Why don't you stop after a nice thing?

[53] Why don't you just stop?

[54] So you're saying when I hit the nice thing, just stop there.

[55] Yeah.

[56] You know what?

[57] That's a good idea and I thank you for it.

[58] Okay.

[59] Wish you had more ideas like that.

[60] Okay.

[61] You know what?

[62] Okay.

[63] No, no, I'm not doing it.

[64] giving you anything.

[65] I'm not giving you anything.

[66] Also, by my side is Matt Goreley.

[67] Hi.

[68] I think I'm saying that correctly, right?

[69] Always have, yeah.

[70] Okay.

[71] Just wanting to check.

[72] It's not a name that rolls up.

[73] Goorly.

[74] Look, who's talking!

[75] Conan O 'Brien's very easy to say.

[76] You hear it once and you've got it forever.

[77] Matt Gorely?

[78] Is it gorley?

[79] Gourly.

[80] And I remember when you came on the scene, my family called you Conan for years.

[81] So did Regis Schoven.

[82] Every time he interviewed me would be like, now Conan Yeah And I'd say Okay, Regis I showed him right That's his name Regis No but I would go Regis I put the No Didn't I get him Wasn't that a good burn No it wasn't Yeah he didn't seem to think It was either Yeah He didn't even notice it Yeah Cause what it's Sona that's not even Your real name What?

[83] Oh you're right It's not No yeah I was like What do you mean Yeah It's not It's not What's your real name My first name is Talline Oh that's pretty And your middle name is Sona Tallene, so my parents called me Tallinn for a month of my life.

[84] But why did they switch then?

[85] Because so does my grandma's name, and they wanted to pay respects to my grandma.

[86] I don't know why they named me Tallinn.

[87] It's ruined my life.

[88] No, for months as a child, out of respect for my grandmother, I was called Maddie.

[89] Really screwed me up.

[90] But you have sisters.

[91] I know.

[92] I don't know what that was going on.

[93] They called me, Madi.

[94] And they would say things like, and even as a young boy, they would say, Can we help you, Maddie?

[95] Okay.

[96] And, you know, they would help me up the stairs and things like that.

[97] They would help you up the stairs.

[98] Yeah, when I was, when I was 14 years old, Monty, are you okay?

[99] Remember to take your pills?

[100] They didn't treat me like my grandma.

[101] They just called.

[102] I know, my parents really went, to show respect to my grandmother while my grandmother was alive, they still called me my grandmother's name and made me take her medication.

[103] And this explains a lot.

[104] Help me up the stairs.

[105] All out of respect from my grandmother, which I thought was weird.

[106] Yeah, that is really weird.

[107] Who are you named after Matt?

[108] I'm named after Marshall Matt Dillon from Gunsmoke.

[109] Are you really?

[110] Yeah.

[111] Wow, that was a big show back in the day.

[112] And a big leap from Matt Dillon to me, too.

[113] No, no. You are in the podcast world.

[114] You are quite the gunslinger, quite the lawman.

[115] That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said.

[116] You are.

[117] You're in the podcast world, the world I do not understand.

[118] You carry a lot of weight.

[119] People really like your work.

[120] You're well respected and well regarded.

[121] That's what I've, that's what I picked up.

[122] I don't see it myself.

[123] There it is.

[124] I'm sorry, I just let it roll.

[125] I wasn't even going to respond.

[126] I tried to try.

[127] Could you try?

[128] I tried.

[129] To just compliment like errands here in the room.

[130] Just give him a compliment and then, and then leave it at that.

[131] Just as an experiment.

[132] Please don't.

[133] Please don't.

[134] Let's see.

[135] Oh my God.

[136] I don't know what to kind of compliment.

[137] I don't know how to compliment it.

[138] His nose just started bleeding.

[139] It's a long wait for a compliment.

[140] You, you.

[141] It's hard.

[142] It's hard to compliment.

[143] You are, I've known you a long time, Aaron.

[144] That's a fact.

[145] That's just a statement.

[146] How about an object?

[147] Let's start with an object like that pen.

[148] Okay.

[149] It's Sharpie.

[150] I'm almost tempted to just leave it at that.

[151] Like it's Sharpie.

[152] No, it's a Sharpie pen and it says Sharpie Fine Point, Permanent marker.

[153] And these really are permanent.

[154] Once you use them, it's very difficult to remove the mark that they leave.

[155] Okay, these are just copy points.

[156] Yeah, there's not.

[157] They're annoying, actually, because you write on your hand or something, and it just doesn't come along.

[158] So these things are the pain of my existence.

[159] You can't even compliment a Sharpie.

[160] I can't even compliment a Sharpie.

[161] So many times I've, because I doodle a lot, and I'll doodle something on my hand or something, and the next thing you know, it's there.

[162] You know, or I'll write myself a little message, like, be more positive with people.

[163] Try to be more complimentary, and then it doesn't come off.

[164] So that's why the shop, you're the bane of my existence.

[165] But I think we should move on.

[166] We've all discussed our names.

[167] And we've learned a lot about each other.

[168] Talene, if I called, if I yelled Talene on a busy street, would you turn your head, Sona?

[169] I wouldn't.

[170] No, I don't even remember being called Sona.

[171] I mean, Tallene.

[172] I don't remember it.

[173] But you just admitted earlier that I have a very distinct divorce.

[174] voice.

[175] So if you heard my voice yelled Talene, you wouldn't turn your head?

[176] No, you can't do that.

[177] Yes, I can.

[178] Because we're not talking about your voice.

[179] We're talking about whether or not I respond to Tallin.

[180] I don't.

[181] I think you would turn your head.

[182] Come on.

[183] You would.

[184] I'm already looking at you.

[185] Exactly.

[186] I win.

[187] That doesn't work.

[188] I win.

[189] Don't say I win.

[190] You know how much that infuriates me when you say I win.

[191] I hate that.

[192] I absolutely hate that.

[193] So much.

[194] Where's my trophy?

[195] Nope.

[196] Nope.

[197] Stop it.

[198] Wait, I'm being handed a trophy right now.

[199] No. You can't see this.

[200] Yes, I am.

[201] And a suitcase of cash.

[202] No, this is, this is...

[203] Whoa, a plaque.

[204] Conan wins again.

[205] I hate this so much.

[206] Matt, you have no idea what this taps into for me. I'm getting a sense of it.

[207] Oh, my God.

[208] Well, anyway.

[209] No, not anyway.

[210] That's stupid.

[211] You didn't win anything.

[212] Nope.

[213] You didn't win anything.

[214] You're so stupid.

[215] Good to win.

[216] No, that's dumb.

[217] You didn't win.

[218] Winner.

[219] Nope, nothing.

[220] I love that we're about to segue into Malcolm Gladwell's book on seeing the other side of people and their arguments.

[221] Yes.

[222] Malcolm Gladwell may be one of the most intelligent writers on the human mind and psychology and what makes us tick.

[223] And I'm introducing him right now following just the most infantile babble between two adults.

[224] Yeah.

[225] You, because you want to...

[226] Let it go.

[227] You just have to let it go.

[228] Yeah.

[229] Because I'm going to say it, and then you just go into the...

[230] Learn to be a good loser.

[231] Here we go.

[232] My guest today...

[233] I'm seriously, I'm introducing...

[234] I know you are.

[235] So, okay, hold on and go.

[236] My guest today...

[237] Okay.

[238] I win.

[239] My guest today...

[240] I got it.

[241] I did it.

[242] My guest today is an author.

[243] I won't.

[244] My guest today is an author and journalist who's had five books on the New York Times bestseller list.

[245] He also hosts the hit podcast for Visionist History.

[246] His latest book is Talking to Strangers.

[247] I won.

[248] And Talking to Strangers is great.

[249] But you know what's really amazing is the audiobook.

[250] I just want to mention this because I read Talking to Strangers.

[251] And it's this terrific book that talks about how we think we know people.

[252] assumptions that we make, how we don't really know sometimes who we're talking to, that our assumptions are incorrect.

[253] It's this wonderful book, but when you listen to the audio book and the reason I'm bringing this up is that you hear the voices of the different people he interviewed and court transcripts come to life.

[254] It really adds a whole other dimension to the book.

[255] It's available, by the way, on Audible.

[256] Anyway, glad I won.

[257] And now to get into it, the brilliant.

[258] Malcolm Gladwell is with us, and maybe he'll explain what's wrong with me and so.

[259] Seriously, very good to have you here, sir.

[260] How often do you go back to the old country and kind of like go to the pub that your great, great, great, great, grandfather owned?

[261] That's what they all do, right?

[262] No, that's not what they all do, Malcolm.

[263] I'm surprised, here you are, I think, this very erudite, learned man, and you just reduced me to the lucky terms, leprecon and said that I did go back to the pub and see the old country I've been back several times but no I don't go to the pub and we have no idea there's not good genealogical records on our people because I think we I married thank you I married into a very I'll say it a waspy family and so my wife has oil portraits of ancestors going back to like 16, 18 he, you know, when they lived near Plymouth Rock.

[264] And we found, I think, a wanted poster for one of my people, because he stole a horse's hoof.

[265] Didn't even take the whole horse.

[266] After I did, this will, actually, I'm now going to try and curry favor with you, after I did my podcast episodes this season on the, I did three on the Jesuits.

[267] Yes.

[268] And someone wrote some article about them.

[269] And they said, you know, Malcolm Gladwell is fond of unpopular things.

[270] and he listed like a series of unpopular causes that I had been fond of.

[271] And then one of them was the Catholic Church.

[272] And I thought, wait a minute, that's really unfair.

[273] The Catholic Church has now become an unpopular cause.

[274] There's like a billion people are Catholics.

[275] That's like the furthest thing from an unpopular cause.

[276] They have, I saw it somewhere.

[277] Maybe it was in a movie or a TV show, but someone referred to them as having, they've had branding issues.

[278] They've had some bad branding.

[279] No, no, but if I might be serious for a moment, it's entirely unclear to me. There are two ways of making sense of the Catholic Church's branding issues.

[280] One is that there's something uniquely wrong with the Catholic Church and that they deserve our disparagement and whatever.

[281] The other is that all major institutions have similar kinds of problems, and the Catholics are the first to publicly own up to it.

[282] My suspicion is it's the latter not the former, and that really what they are, is that there are lots of other skeletons in lots of other closets that are hidden away.

[283] And the Catholics have had the guts.

[284] They've gone through a very public, very painful, and ultimately, it took a while, but ultimately very honest accounting of where they have gone wrong.

[285] I think there's a long list of people who should do the same thing and have to be very careful about where they throw stones right now.

[286] Right, right.

[287] A lot of glass houses on this particular problem.

[288] Yeah, I think that's fair, what you've just said.

[289] I think there'd be some people that would say they wish that the Catholic Church hadn't been forced to confront it because it was hidden and...

[290] But that's the way of...

[291] But that's the way of humans.

[292] That's the way of humans.

[293] And that's, you know, one of the things that comes up a lot in your work and it's one of the things I wanted to touch on is that humans are flawed.

[294] And, you know, especially your latest book talking to strangers, one of the reasons I love that book so much is that you pretty much reveal that we don't know what other people are thinking.

[295] We're not able to judge other people.

[296] You give many great examples of it.

[297] And I think, yeah, what I always like to default to is humans are flawed.

[298] The humility of saying, I am flawed, and working off the assumption that I'm flawed, that's a good way to go.

[299] Assume that we're flawed.

[300] Am I on the right track here?

[301] Yeah, I think, you know, at the end of this book, I talk about how we need to be a lot more cautious and humble in our assessments of people.

[302] And actually, I begin the book, I don't remember, I begin the book with that story about my dad.

[303] And as a joke, I used to, when my parents came to New York, I would put them up in the Mercer, the celebrity haven.

[304] Because they were people who never had a TV.

[305] They couldn't have identified any celebrity under any circumstances.

[306] So it was inherently funny to put them in a place where they would be surrounded by celebrities.

[307] And sure enough, one day my dad, I asked him what he had done that day.

[308] He said, well, I spent the afternoon in the lobby of the Mercer, having a delightful conversation with a man about gardening.

[309] But the only problem was people kept coming up to him and to the man I was talking to, and asking to take pictures and have him sign pieces of paper.

[310] So it was clearly some, he had an incredibly famous.

[311] Because in the lobby, you probably know, you can't go, this is not the public place.

[312] You had to be a guest.

[313] So other celebrities were coming to this person asking for autographs.

[314] And my father had no clue.

[315] They talked for 45 minutes or an hour about gardening, and he had no clue who he was...

[316] Did you ever figure out who it was?

[317] No, so one of the projects of this book is to find out who it was.

[318] I have some guesses.

[319] Well, so, no, okay, this is fantastic, because I would like you to help me. I tried to ask my father some basic...

[320] My father, sadly, has passed, but I tried to ask him some basic, kind of grounding questions because he was completely in the dark.

[321] It was, I think, a fellow Englishman.

[322] My dad was English.

[323] So, because he's going to do...

[324] He would only really chat up another English person.

[325] And it was someone generally of his age range, who's born in the 1930s.

[326] And he is into gardening.

[327] Those are our three people.

[328] We have to work with that.

[329] So Mick Jagger, possibility, but what's Mick doing at the Mercer?

[330] Mick's got a place.

[331] Mick's not staying at hotels.

[332] Also, Mick's not a gardener.

[333] Mix not a gardener.

[334] He's not a gardener.

[335] I have a theory.

[336] Yeah, okay.

[337] Let's hear.

[338] George Harrison.

[339] George Harrison, now, not born in the 30s, born in the 40s, but an avid gardener, an Englishman.

[340] What year was this?

[341] I'm going to say 2004.

[342] Oh, I think he would have passed by that.

[343] He would have passed by that.

[344] Someone else suggested it.

[345] The ghost of George Harrison was talking to your father, because the ghost of George Harrison does hang out at the Mercer.

[346] That's a fact.

[347] That is a fact.

[348] Someone else suggested Michael Kane.

[349] Could be Michael Kane.

[350] But I've talked to Michael Kane.

[351] He doesn't talk about gardening.

[352] He talks about suntan lotions.

[353] He does talk, he's very interested in, he's a guy that he's an Englishman who made it big and then spent most of his time near the equator.

[354] And he knows every single kind of sun oil and possible.

[355] I was told he was a big gardener.

[356] There's no chance, Graham Gladwell is talking about sun tan lotion.

[357] No. But he would have talked about, you know, delphiniums.

[358] Did he ever mention if the man smelled like sandalwood and coconut?

[359] because that would be Michael Cain.

[360] I've memorized his scent.

[361] I've been around him three times and I've memorized his scent because I licked his wrist when he wasn't looking.

[362] But here's my point.

[363] Here's my point.

[364] My father, who in that moment had a meaningful interaction with someone without trying to get to the heart of who they were, what they did, what they were like.

[365] He was content to have a delightful conversation about gardening.

[366] He met the person on a...

[367] And we would most of us would say, well, that's a very superficial conversation.

[368] Graham Glad would have said, it's not superficial.

[369] Gardening is something I feel very passionately about it.

[370] And so did this mystery person.

[371] And why can't we be content to meet someone in a place where there is no possibility for misunderstanding?

[372] So to make it, it's a conversation very serious.

[373] My book is organized around the death of Sandra Bland.

[374] The whole problem with that encounter is the police officer pulls over this young African -American woman and he is not content to meet her where she is.

[375] He wants to jump to all kinds of conclusions and try and figure out what's in her heart.

[376] Is she dangerous?

[377] And he constructs this bizarre, paranoid fantasy that she's some kind of criminal.

[378] And she ends up, he ends up arresting her.

[379] She ends up committing suicide three days later in the cell.

[380] And it's a tragic story.

[381] And again, you, I've since, after I read your book, I went back and I've, I'd seen it before, but I watched the dash cam footage of the policeman pulling her over.

[382] pulling her over, and the confrontation beginning and her, him saying, put out your cigarette, and she's saying, I don't have to put out my cigarette.

[383] And the whole time that I was watching it, I think we all do this when we see that tape, which is so tragic, we just want the policeman to back off.

[384] I've been thinking about this a lot.

[385] The whole precipitating incident is she lights the cigarette.

[386] And he says, put that out.

[387] And she says, I don't have to put it out.

[388] And he says, you have defied a direct order and then he tries to drag her out of the car.

[389] she lights the cigarette to calm herself down It's so weird that we're now so removed from smoking I mean it used to be the substantial We've forgotten the tropes of smoking And the reasons why One of the main reasons people would light a cigarette Is when they needed to calm their nerves, right?

[390] If it's 1950 and you've just been through a heroin experience The first thing you do is you take out a pack of Marlborough And you light up You light up In her own mind, I think She's signaling to him, I would like to calm down.

[391] I'm trying to de -escalate.

[392] I'm trying to bring myself back under control because I got very upset.

[393] I'm just going to have a cigarette.

[394] And he doesn't understand even that most basic of gesture.

[395] And you can't, I mean, this is sort of goes to this question of what it takes to be an effective police officer.

[396] And you realize to be an effective police officer, you have to be a student of people.

[397] You have to understand the meaning of these kinds of small gestures.

[398] and body languages and things.

[399] He is being required by the kind of absurd demands of his job to reach a conclusion about a woman he has never met in 30 seconds.

[400] Yeah.

[401] And he can't, of course, can't do it.

[402] I have a, remember I have a chapter on Amanda Knox and the Italian police and the British tabloid media who concoct this absurd fantasy that she's a murderous on the basis of zero evidence.

[403] They also concoct this whole story.

[404] thing that Amanda Knox, you know, visiting Italy.

[405] It's her roommate's murdered.

[406] I'm just recapping anyone who doesn't know this story, but I think it's fairly well known.

[407] Her roommate is murdered while she's out of the apartment and because she's not behaving immediately the way people are supposed to behave when someone's been murdered.

[408] She's very young.

[409] She's kind of making out with her boyfriend soon afterwards.

[410] She fits the mode of femme fatal.

[411] Yeah.

[412] And then the tabloid press deems her foxy -noxie.

[413] It turns out that that name and they make up how she's just very this sexual libertine who's constantly experimenting and a voracious sexual appetite and it's like, no, no, no, she was called foxy -noxie because she was a clever soccer player.

[414] I mean, it's staggering.

[415] They are observing what they believe to be discrepancies in her behavior, jumping to all kinds of absurd conclusions just as the cop did in the Sandra Blan case and not listening to her.

[416] Not even, not stopping to realize, oh, I'm talking to an 18 year old, an immature 18 year old from another culture who expresses her grief in different ways.

[417] In retrospect, that case is so weird to go back and read about it in retrospect.

[418] They were legit, large portions of the Western, you know, citizenry who were convinced that she was some kind of crazed blood -sucking murderous.

[419] I mean, it's...

[420] And there's no evidence that she...

[421] did it.

[422] Plus, there's tons of evidence that this other person did it.

[423] I mean, it was, and she spent years in Italian prison.

[424] Yeah.

[425] And there's a very good documentary about it is that you watch it and when you're done, you think, oh my God, I need to make sure that I behave in the proper socially acceptable way if the police ever show up.

[426] Yeah.

[427] Yeah.

[428] And this all goes to the point of your book.

[429] So I want to reemphasize is all these different examples about how.

[430] how we like to think of ourselves.

[431] To me, this reminded me a little bit of moneyball, the sort of Billy Bean theory of baseball, which is that no one was bothered with statistics.

[432] He has a good swing.

[433] I like the look at his swing.

[434] What's interesting there is the theme I pick up in my book, but I always think that we could do far more with it.

[435] In the Moneyball book, essentially what the thesis boils down to is that observing a baseball player play baseball, is not just irrelevant to the task of figuring out how good they are at baseball, but may actually impair your judgment.

[436] Yes.

[437] Well, you talk about this in your book.

[438] With judges.

[439] You talk about this with judges.

[440] There are judges who've said, I would be a better judge if literally we put a bucket over, you don't say this, but if they put a bucket over the defendant's head, and you couldn't see their expressions, but you just could hear their testimony.

[441] And look at their, look at their.

[442] their criminal record.

[443] Look at their criminal record.

[444] You would make much better decisions, much more accurate decisions.

[445] And we're always taking these cues, which is you might be reticent when you first show up here at the podcast, and I'll think you're a little shy when you first meet people or when you first come into a situation and you're quieter and you're not a big loud mouth like me. So you...

[446] Not Irish.

[447] You know what I mean?

[448] I find this...

[449] This is going to be my next book.

[450] Malcolm Gladwell You know horrible caricaturist Of the Irish Of the Irish No I was out very late in the pub last night So you'll excuse me Having trouble stringing thoughts together I'm going to hear about that I'm sure like to the end of my days So I just hired a new assistant And every time I get a new one every two years And every time I do I try and use whatever things I've been thinking about and apply them to the hiring process.

[451] So my first thought was, let's remove all of the information from that encounter.

[452] Because when you sit down with your assistant for the job interview, the candidate, you are talking to a stranger.

[453] Yes.

[454] So what's irrelevant about?

[455] So we know from in Billy, in the case of the judges, I talk about my book, they would do better if they just looked at the statistics.

[456] in the case of, so you take away information, looking at the prison face -to -face, and they do a better job of making the right choice.

[457] So my first thought was, okay, what should they take off their resume?

[458] That seems useful, but actually isn't.

[459] So I make them all redact the name of their college and high school.

[460] I don't want to know.

[461] How does it possibly help, right?

[462] Does it really help me make a better judgment if the person in front of me went to, you know, B -U as opposed to Caltech.

[463] Yeah.

[464] I'd just like to point out that I went to Harvard.

[465] Oh, my goodness.

[466] I got a magnum.

[467] They wrote a very good thesis.

[468] But I don't want you to know that.

[469] I just thought that you were asking me. I was wondering why you had a large H tattooed on your chest.

[470] Is that at all related to where you went to school?

[471] No, I'm a Hogwarts fan.

[472] I'm a really big Harry Potter guy, and that's my Hogwarts tattoo.

[473] So, okay, so I take that out of the table.

[474] I would, if you were interviewing for my job of assistant.

[475] Well, you would see, an Irish guy, you would say there's no way he went to Harvard.

[476] It doesn't happen.

[477] He probably, yeah, they don't let the Irish in.

[478] And I'm sure he helps his father out at the pub.

[479] And then it's off for a bowl of lucky charms.

[480] And then to bed.

[481] I got one of those Nina signs out front.

[482] Yeah.

[483] Yeah.

[484] I can make that joke because I'm a black person.

[485] you can do whatever you want I know so the second question was well why am I why am I meeting them why am I meeting them face to face so in the face -to -face encounter what am I finding out I'm finding out whether they're tall or short whether their hair is dark or you know not how well they dress none of this is a vanity relevance whatsoever right none to be my assistant basically I don't work with them they work out of coffee shops they email me stuff They have to be, they have to reply instantly.

[486] They have to be super organized.

[487] They have to be nice, good, honest people.

[488] I'm so glad you brought up this topic because you are in the room with my assistant.

[489] Okay.

[490] And I hired my assistant 10 years ago, and I will tell you that I met her.

[491] She seemed responsible.

[492] Okay.

[493] Prompt, courteous, professional.

[494] Yeah.

[495] And it affirms everything you've said.

[496] I was completely hornswoggled.

[497] Okay.

[498] A word that's never used much.

[499] I was dreading this.

[500] The second you talked about hiring an assistant, I was like, please don't say anything.

[501] But I will say, I will say that I, did you need, wait, what information did you gather from the face -to -facing?

[502] You know, it's funny, I was completely duped, and it's not sound as fault, but it was, I needed to hire an assistant.

[503] I was coming here to Los Angeles.

[504] My New York assistant did not want to move.

[505] She had a family.

[506] So I was hiring a brand -new assistant.

[507] I met with, I think, 10 assistants, candidates in one day.

[508] in some office in Burbank.

[509] And the stuff that you'd think I could take away, like, is she tall?

[510] Is she short?

[511] I even got that wrong because I was, I forget what happened, but I think she came into the room and sat down on this couch, and it's a very low couch with soft cushions, and she sunk into it.

[512] So I had this conversation with you.

[513] Yeah.

[514] And I remembered, and your hair was like all puffed out because of humidity or something.

[515] So I thought, so at the end, come on.

[516] No, but seriously.

[517] So at the end of the day, I ended up hiring her, and people said, well, what's she like?

[518] And I said, well, she's this very short woman with a big, massive bush of black hair.

[519] And her name's Sona, Mobsessian, I think, I can't pronounce it.

[520] I am.

[521] Yeah, nice.

[522] Thank you.

[523] Oh, nice.

[524] Nice for Armenia, but down with the Irish?

[525] Yes.

[526] Persecuted people.

[527] I mean, I know.

[528] Now I know you guys have your own story.

[529] But can I tell my wife?

[530] Yeah, no one ever persecuted the Irish.

[531] I love how you just reduced Irish history to, yeah, you guys have your own story.

[532] Yeah.

[533] Can I tell my favorite?

[534] It wouldn't let us have a potato for 800 years.

[535] Wait, wait, are you, are you, when you're finished with this story, that's embarrassing your assistant?

[536] Yes, we're finished.

[537] I'm done, I'm just saying that she's not, she's very tall and, uh, I even got the visual cues wrong as well as her character totally, totally wrong.

[538] We're finished, we're done.

[539] Go ahead.

[540] Moving on.

[541] Moving on.

[542] I want to tell my all -time favorite Irish story.

[543] Yes.

[544] All right.

[545] This is pressure.

[546] I'm allowed to do this?

[547] Yes.

[548] I was very, at one point in my life, into the troubles, the story of the trial, the IRA.

[549] We call them the troubles.

[550] The troubles.

[551] In a footnote to a truly great book on the IRA, the following story is told.

[552] At the end of the Second World War, there was a British informer who was very, very high up in the IRA, and he was found out.

[553] They discovered he was.

[554] So they immediately spirited him away to a cottage in the, you know, off in the countryside somewhere and they interrogated him and they wrung a confession out of him and they asked him to write out his confession.

[555] Now I should stop and say this story is based on a deep affection I have for the Irish people and for their extraordinary literary legacy.

[556] As you know, it's some of the greatest literature in the world.

[557] Of course.

[558] Of course.

[559] So he is asked to write his confession.

[560] He says, you know, will you give me time?

[561] They say, yes, absolutely.

[562] and so he's they capture him in I think May and like where it's going yeah when he is finally rescued by the British in November he's still working on his consent but it's a beautiful story so but imagine this you're like a hard IRA guy and you've got this traitor in your midst who you busted and he's like every morning he like sits down you know with his pen and paper and it's working on another draft and everyone's fine with it You're like, I, you know, writing is a difficult process.

[563] At some point, he must have been blocked and they were very understanding.

[564] Because even James Joyce, you know, went through a difficult period.

[565] Sure.

[566] So they're all, it's this supportive literary community, and it goes out for six months.

[567] It's just, I just, how can you not love the Irish when you hear that story?

[568] The Irish are also so clannish and secretive for no reason.

[569] That's my other little thing about them.

[570] Even in my own family, people, there'll be stuff that you don't, doesn't need to be a secret.

[571] like my mother got new throw pillows you know for the couch and they're not even expensive throw but no one needs to know like there's this and so our head writer Mike Sweeney told me this story once that he went and he looked at a he was traveling around Ireland and they said you've got to see this amazing stop your head writer is Mike Sweeney he was he's no longer the headwriter he's been replaced by Matt O 'Brien I was going to say and I'm not kidding You're not kidding.

[572] No. Oh, my God.

[573] So you don't need to meet the person.

[574] You just need to look at their name.

[575] And if there's like an O or a, you know, you're just hired, is this an all -Irish?

[576] Sona said that she was Sona -O -Movsessian.

[577] And I was convinced.

[578] I just, and she had dyed her hair red, and she was wearing a paper hat.

[579] And I did a jig.

[580] She did a jig.

[581] She did a jig.

[582] She did a jig.

[583] Yeah.

[584] But anyway, he told the story of he was traveling through Ireland.

[585] And there was this place that they said, oh, the tourists have to see.

[586] And it's this.

[587] cave that you can go down in and it's just incredible stalactites and crystals and it's something that you would see in a magical movie a Lord of the Rings kind of film just the amazing tunnel and then there's a little pamphlet that tells the story of how it was discovered it was discovered in like 1949 by a local farmer who just found it on his property like a piece of sod fell in and he peeked inside and saw this amazing vault with 800 -foot ceilings and crazy crystals and just one of the most greatest natural wonders in Ireland.

[588] And so he finds it like in 1948.

[589] And then it said it was finally introduced to the public in 1979 when he passed away.

[590] And he were like, well, wait a minute.

[591] He found it.

[592] What was going on?

[593] And Sweeney was laughing and I was laughing because we know the guy found it.

[594] There's nothing.

[595] It's not like it had gold in it or anything.

[596] He found it, and he was just like, ah, it's no one's feckin' business.

[597] No one's feckin business.

[598] Like, let's not talk about the cave.

[599] We don't talk about the cave.

[600] Just keep the cave.

[601] You know, it's a pretty nice cave.

[602] You should, ah, it's no one's goddamn business.

[603] Like, why keep the cave secret?

[604] What's wrong with you?

[605] So between that and writing, we're at incredible people.

[606] It's very good.

[607] You, um, you, oh, no, go ahead.

[608] Well, no, I was, I was relating back to, to your book.

[609] You talk about Hitler.

[610] And you talk about Hitler in the late 30s, and you talk about Neville Chamberlain, who famously thought that he could make peace with Hitler and thought that he could read Hitler and went and met with Hitler a couple of times and said, you know, this Hitler guy, he can be reasoned with, he could be talked to.

[611] And then he made a peace plan with Hitler and famously stepped off an airplane and told everybody, we have peace with hair, Hitler.

[612] He's, you know, we're all good and everybody cheered.

[613] And literally it's a year or two later that London's being blitzed.

[614] And he was completely, didn't see who Hitler was.

[615] And then you make the point now, we see that now.

[616] And we think, but it's Hitler.

[617] How could you not know?

[618] But we know now what we know now.

[619] He is the devil.

[620] He is the most evil face in history.

[621] And so how could anyone have even been misled?

[622] But then you go through your book and you list all these people, all these people at the same time, And people who were really good or supposedly good judges of character who met with him and said, no, no, no, he's okay.

[623] We can deal with him.

[624] I mean, even the Germans themselves thought, you know, the mustache is a little weird and he has, he's a little weeds.

[625] And, you know, he's odd the way he struts around.

[626] But you know what?

[627] We can handle him.

[628] We can deal with him.

[629] And then famously, he ends up, you know, almost destroying, you know, half the civilized world and killing millions and millions and millions of people.

[630] I think we, you know, I was reading a book by a guy who was his sort of PR guy in the early 30s and eventually leaves him.

[631] I love that Hitler had a PR guy.

[632] Oh, he totally did.

[633] By the way, a PR guy who, where did this PR?

[634] Where did Hitler's PR guy go to school?

[635] Harvard.

[636] Well, I'm not shocked by that.

[637] Yeah.

[638] He used to come back and still teach when I was there.

[639] Yeah.

[640] And he writes this, like, book, and he describes the moment of meeting Hitler for the first time.

[641] and he's in some pub in Munich and Hitler is like giving a speech before a group of like rowdy, you know, workers and he's not met this guy before he's been at Harvard and, you know, he's come back to his native Germany and he just describes how utterly mesmerizing Hitler was and that kind of person is it's dangerous to meet that kind of person you're, you know, Hitler has a, he's written a massive book in which he lays out his feelings about things, called Mind Camp, right?

[642] That is one source of evidence.

[643] The other source of evidence is you can meet the guy and you can run the risk of falling under his spell.

[644] And that, Chamberlain's problem is he chooses B not A. He should have stayed home and read, re -read if he hadn't read it already.

[645] If he had read it already, Mind Comph.

[646] That would have given him a better picture of what Hitler was up to.

[647] It's just, you know, the man's a master conman with incredible personal charisma.

[648] to stay away if you want to reach a kind of rational conclusion.

[649] Right, right.

[650] What's so interesting is that there are people, and famously Churchill.

[651] Churchill's just not buying it.

[652] And there's a period in England's history in the mid to late 30s where he's like the only person.

[653] There's one person in England who's saying, no, we need to be making airplanes and guns and battleships right now.

[654] They are going to come for us and we have to be ready.

[655] Churchill famously never met Hitler.

[656] Which surprised me somehow when I was doing it.

[657] They were in the same hotel once, apparently.

[658] Hitler was upstairs and they were supposed to have tea, and Hitler blew him off.

[659] Yeah.

[660] Because the Harvard PR guy, actually, it's true.

[661] This is involved, this is in the early 30s.

[662] It's not important where he went to college.

[663] Do you know what I mean?

[664] I think it is.

[665] I think it's very important.

[666] It's why he's that way.

[667] You're very sensitive on this subject.

[668] I just think that it's, it could have been maybe a Harvard, I think it was Harvard Dental School.

[669] I think he had gone to Harvard Dental School, which we all know those people are creeps.

[670] Why would we just say that Hitler's PR guy went to school in Cambridge?

[671] Very nice to done.

[672] That's also, I think, we're the architects of Vietnam War were a schooled.

[673] It's not a...

[674] We've done a lot of good.

[675] It's not a good look.

[676] Yeah, not a good look.

[677] No, trust me. The thing that amazes me with the college scandal is, don't the numbers seem low to you?

[678] Like, you got some person who's got many, many millions of dollars.

[679] Oh, $15 ,000?

[680] Are you kidding me?

[681] If you're going to, I mean, you're going to like, to break the law, basically, on behalf of your kid.

[682] And I'm only going to ask 15K.

[683] This is the part, I don't understand it at all.

[684] Well, this guy needs some help.

[685] He needs his own version of a kind of advisor to pull him aside and say, add a zero for God's sake.

[686] No, he needed Hitler's PR guy.

[687] That's what he needed.

[688] He needed Hitler's PR guy to come in and.

[689] And, you could, you could, you could, he could have had a good business at 100K for per student.

[690] If you're going to goose SAT scores, you'd better go to six figures.

[691] I don't, this whole, he's like wasting his time, this guy.

[692] You know, this is the greatest, what I love is, again, this is what you do, but you have cracked the real story here, which is that the college admission scandal was a badly run business.

[693] No, everyone else has been distracted by the, the moral flaw with it.

[694] But no, you have struck to the heart of the matter.

[695] It's like, what are these guys doing?

[696] Yeah, what are you doing?

[697] What are you doing?

[698] $15 ,000?

[699] She's a, she's an, these are wealthy people.

[700] These are very successful people.

[701] You call yourself some kind of expert in this area, like, give me a break.

[702] And the tuition 6570K, I mean, they're already on the hook for that much, right?

[703] They're committed to spending $300 ,000 over the course of their child's education for this.

[704] Like, why are you chiseling off some nickel and, diming this.

[705] I mean, this doesn't make any sense.

[706] Very upset about that.

[707] I've never seen you.

[708] Here's my question.

[709] And maybe you can help me on this.

[710] I can.

[711] I went to Harvard.

[712] What is the moral difference between.

[713] So I, if you walk around the Princeton campus, right?

[714] Every building has got the name of a rich guy on it.

[715] Rich white guys.

[716] It's all rich white guys.

[717] Yeah.

[718] So it's okay if I bribe my kids way in by building a building.

[719] Yes.

[720] There's a right way to bribe.

[721] There's a right way to run.

[722] And I think that's, you know, I, this goes to something else that I'm obsessed with, this need we have to put our names on things.

[723] Yes.

[724] Now, I'm saying this as someone who, and this is, you know, not my doing, but right now we're in a building that says Conan on it.

[725] Yeah.

[726] And then everywhere you walk in this building, it says Conan.

[727] There's a lot of, there's a lot of Conan.

[728] A lot of Conan branding.

[729] No, I did feel that, actually.

[730] I was like, this is like a cult of personality.

[731] Yeah, it is.

[732] You're running like, and it was.

[733] weird is like the cult is based around like a tall, gangly, Irish guy.

[734] Like, it's not like...

[735] You know what?

[736] You are not my friend.

[737] You are not my friend.

[738] We're not friends.

[739] My point is, you can imagine, like, the cult, when you think of people who have cults of personality, we all do respect to you, and I, you know, I am your friend.

[740] I've said.

[741] Yeah, we pressured into it.

[742] I signed the statement, and I am a long -time fan of yours.

[743] I find you absolutely brilliant and delightful.

[744] You are not the archetype of the cult of personality.

[745] Let's just be honest, right?

[746] I believe I am.

[747] I believe I have everything Manson had and more.

[748] I really do.

[749] I think you don't know me well enough, but I have the power to lead a sick and dangerous cult.

[750] You just described yourself as a people pleaser, you're the people pleaser cult of personality guy?

[751] Yes.

[752] So you're, okay, that just dismantled me. Where I was going with this was, but this is all professional.

[753] This is all, this is all whatever the professional.

[754] I don't want, I'm very clear, on this.

[755] I don't want like a grave with my name on it.

[756] I don't want my name on a building.

[757] I don't understand that.

[758] I feel, yeah, it's the old Osamandias, behold, look upon ye on my works and despair.

[759] I find the whole thing of, it just makes me sadder.

[760] It makes me feel less.

[761] I would feel less.

[762] If you showed me my name on a giant, carved into a giant stone mountain, I would feel less than I am.

[763] Does that make sense?

[764] You don't want the Mount Rushmore thing.

[765] Oh, I do want that.

[766] Oh.

[767] That's not my name.

[768] That's my image.

[769] Now, my image must be everywhere.

[770] That's right.

[771] Are we clear?

[772] It's the name.

[773] I just think Conan O 'Brien, it's not a good name.

[774] But the face, the face.

[775] He's drawn his own face.

[776] That's not my face.

[777] That's just a generic doodle.

[778] That is you.

[779] That is you.

[780] He looks a little bit like you.

[781] Okay.

[782] Well, listen.

[783] How do you get on Matt?

[784] I don't know this whole.

[785] I'm a Canadian, this is all very weird to me. Right.

[786] Of all of the weird, idolatrous things in American society, Mount Rushmore got to be one of the weirdest, right?

[787] It's very strange.

[788] Very, very strange.

[789] I don't know whose idea was it?

[790] How do you get in there?

[791] Was it just willy -nilly the coolest guys in 1910?

[792] Is that what's going?

[793] Yes, I think what happened was I'm not a, it's newer than you think, Matt Rushmore.

[794] It is a, I think, I'm pretty sure it's a 20th century phenomenon.

[795] and they, but you look at it, there's the obvious, like, well, we got to have, Teddy.

[796] You got to have, well, first, you have to have George Washington, and you got to have Lincoln.

[797] You know you got to have them.

[798] And then I think they felt like you've got to have Jefferson, you know.

[799] So, okay, that's three.

[800] Who else is in there?

[801] I think it's Teddy Roosevelt.

[802] I know it was on there.

[803] Was it during his administration?

[804] I think it was during his, that's why.

[805] Well, I don't know.

[806] No, but the only question I have is, is that it or is there another?

[807] I'm pretty sure Gerald Ford is in there.

[808] Now that's the one I have problems with.

[809] They predicted it.

[810] He was in the office for two years and Gerald Ford is in there.

[811] Go look at it.

[812] It's soft to the side of the mountain.

[813] He's not with the others and it's much smaller.

[814] It's on the shoulder.

[815] Yeah, yeah.

[816] He sort of looks like a parrot on Jefferson's shoulder.

[817] What if you make a mistake?

[818] If you make a mistake, if universities are all the time, somebody endows a building and then they're indicted from the side of trading and then you're like very quietly taken down.

[819] You know, that was my, in one of my podcasts, I was very proud of this.

[820] My suggestion, because it was all that controversy about Woodrow Wilson at Princeton.

[821] Yes, yeah.

[822] Woodrow Wilson School.

[823] And I suggested that they could keep all of like the, you know, the signage and just call it the Owen Wilson.

[824] Nice.

[825] Just pick another Wilson.

[826] That's right.

[827] There's a Wilson who plays quarterback for the Seattle Seahawks.

[828] He would be good, right?

[829] He'd be very useful in that context.

[830] There's Dennis the Menace's neighbor, Mr. Wilson.

[831] Mr. Wilson.

[832] Tom Hanks is volleyball.

[833] Yeah.

[834] Hanks' volleyball is Wilson.

[835] There's lots of Wilson.

[836] So there was a real kind of shortage of imagination, I thought, with them.

[837] They thought they had to get rid of the whole name, and it's just not necessary.

[838] You know, I follow most of your trains of thought, and I enjoy most of them.

[839] You've lost me here on the whole Owen Wilson thing.

[840] I don't agree.

[841] It was one of those things that you do, because what you really want is for Owen Wilson to send you a text out of the blue and just saying, really appreciate the shout out.

[842] It didn't happen It didn't happen It could happen I was fishing Listen you just took another shot at it And Owen Wilson If you're out there Please send a cool text To Michael Gladwell This has been This has been more No it's been actually As much fun as I thought it would be I knew this would be really fun I've been really looking forward To talking with you And I would love to do it again I'd like to do it I'll do your podcast unless you don't seem thrilled about that, so let's just keep plowing ahead.

[843] Of course, or you could come back here, but this is two great minds, both having written many best -selling books.

[844] What?

[845] No, you have not done that.

[846] I have not done any of that?

[847] No, you haven't done that.

[848] Okay, well, anyway, the point is we are equals in every way.

[849] Nope.

[850] No?

[851] No. Chiming in again, nope.

[852] I've thoroughly enjoyed this And then you keep holding up this piece of paper Like we really got to wrap this up And I Don't throw me under the bus I gave you the requested time thing That you asked for This is a weird cult but ineffectual Like it's to save us Take us away It's a bad cult of personality Yeah Yeah So you think I am incapable of being a cult leader Well you're too nice I don't know about that Stick around a little Yeah I think I have a magnetic hold over women.

[853] Nope, nope, nope, nope.

[854] No, I do not.

[855] In that it's like the polar magnet.

[856] Yeah, there's probably a reason why I don't have a cult.

[857] I'm trying, but it's just not working out.

[858] I'm too, yeah.

[859] There aren't many self -deprecating cult leaders.

[860] No, that's, that's a, you know.

[861] Yeah, by definition.

[862] Yeah, Mao was not like a, Oh, you wouldn't want to follow me. I don't know.

[863] It's a great leap forward maybe, but maybe not.

[864] I don't know.

[865] A lot of, I don't know.

[866] I don't know why this is Kamau's voice, but I like it.

[867] One great leap forward, two steps back.

[868] Yeah.

[869] It was one leap forward, two back.

[870] I don't know.

[871] Don't put me on a banner.

[872] It's not, okay.

[873] I don't know.

[874] That's my Stalin.

[875] It's right.

[876] It's all just across.

[877] the board if all the leaders were just across the board I'm not sure about it well I've wasted your time and you clearly have things to do thank you so much for being here seriously just an absolute delight super fun thank you so much let me make sure I also mention that broken record this is your podcast about music is going to is the kick off the third season on October 1st is that right yes very good In the intro to this episode, you guys seemed pretty concerned with who was going to win, the two of you.

[878] And you know what?

[879] I honestly don't remember.

[880] I don't either.

[881] I don't remember.

[882] I remember that I insisted that I won, but I don't remember what I was talking about.

[883] It's so pathological.

[884] I was desperately insisting that I won, but I have no memory of what it is I think I won.

[885] We very easily slip into these juvenile tendencies where we need to have the last word.

[886] Yes, we're like two addicts that shouldn't be around each other.

[887] Yeah, and then also sometimes before the show, if I punch you in the arm, you have to somehow just like hit me back.

[888] I don't really hit you.

[889] I tap you.

[890] Tap me. So let's be honest about that.

[891] I don't strike.

[892] There have been moments when you have locked yourself in the bathroom right before you're supposed to go out and do the show, because you don't want me to get the last punch.

[893] That is true.

[894] And that was stupid.

[895] And it's insane.

[896] And I will say we haven't done that in a long time.

[897] But literally the band would be playing.

[898] The stage director has told me you've got to come out.

[899] But because I tapped you and then shut the bathroom door and locked it, you're waiting outside and you know I have to come out to do the show.

[900] And it will be a lot of times a show with like a big guest.

[901] And I'm not coming out of my dressing room.

[902] Wow.

[903] Because I don't want to get tagged.

[904] And I am an adult 37 -year -old man. I'm sorry, how old are you?

[905] This is just in case we, I'm trying to get Wikipedia to change it.

[906] No. Well, you can change it on Wikipedia yourself.

[907] Oh, is that how it works?

[908] That's how Wikipedia works.

[909] Oh, I thought I just had to keep saying it and then someone else corrects it for me. So I have no blood on my hands.

[910] Anyway.

[911] No, it's stupid.

[912] You make me stupid.

[913] Yes.

[914] Yes.

[915] Oh, you don't think you do stupid thing?

[916] You think you didn't act in a stupid way before I came into your life?

[917] I did.

[918] Yes, I did.

[919] You know what it is?

[920] We revert back to how we were with our siblings.

[921] We are very much siblings.

[922] And that is so stupid.

[923] I think we are very much siblings.

[924] You had an older brother who tormented you.

[925] And then you thought that he was a great tormentor.

[926] This is your brother, Danny.

[927] Yeah.

[928] Who's now a successful major golfer.

[929] What?

[930] He's a financial advisor.

[931] Oh, I thought he was, I don't pay attention.

[932] When you talk, I often don't hear what you said.

[933] I thought he was a mountaineer or a golfer.

[934] Oh, okay.

[935] But anyway.

[936] No, he's a lovely guy, wonderful guy.

[937] But you thought he was the best.

[938] You couldn't imagine anyone who'd be better at getting under your skin than your brother.

[939] No. You grew up with who tormented you.

[940] And then I came along.

[941] And I'm, you know, it's the end of the Matrix suddenly.

[942] Do you remember the end?

[943] Is it Neo?

[944] Yes.

[945] Where suddenly Neo can, he can, he can, fight so quickly that you can't even see it anymore.

[946] It's exquisite.

[947] Yeah.

[948] And that's my level of irritability.

[949] No, no, not irritability.

[950] Ability to cause irritation.

[951] And I'm the agent that just wants to kill you.

[952] And I'm just like, Mr. Anderson.

[953] No, it's Mr. Anderson.

[954] That's you, Sony.

[955] You're always like, missed.

[956] And I'm moving so fast.

[957] And you've got these sunglasses on, but I can tell you're just astonished by how quickly I move.

[958] But I challenge it.

[959] I'm I'm a good foe.

[960] No?

[961] Yeah, you're a pretty good foe, but at the end of the movie, I'm light years ahead of you.

[962] You know, I would try to argue with you, but you annoy me and get under my skin.

[963] I'll, like, lie awake in bed at night and I'll just think about how angry I am.

[964] No, you don't.

[965] That you got the last hit or that you said the last word in an argument.

[966] And it just bothers me. Don't you think that's my way of helping you?

[967] It's therapeutic.

[968] No, why can't you be professional?

[969] One of us has to be the adult and it makes sense that it would be the older...

[970] The person with power.

[971] The person in a position of authority.

[972] I don't think I have power in this relationship.

[973] I really don't.

[974] I honestly don't think I have...

[975] I think we have the craziest situation.

[976] Many people would say you have the power because you...

[977] Blay.

[978] Blay is nodding his head.

[979] A hundred percent.

[980] And Zona has the power.

[981] And if I ask you to do something and you don't want to do it, You don't do it, and that's it.

[982] So don't act like you don't have the power.

[983] You have the power.

[984] You were a model for how people can take power.

[985] Oh, okay.

[986] All right, I'm cool with that.

[987] Yeah.

[988] Sounds like you just said you won.

[989] I did.

[990] I won.

[991] Wait, you won.

[992] No. I got you to admit that I was right.

[993] No. You said, you don't have the power.

[994] And I said, yes, you do.

[995] And then you agreed with me. That means I won.

[996] Oh, come on.

[997] You gave her all the power.

[998] No. I said she already had the power, so I won.

[999] Oh, that pisses me off.

[1000] I won.

[1001] Here's the thing.

[1002] I won.

[1003] I won.

[1004] No, you did it.

[1005] I did win.

[1006] I have the final edit in this thing, so I get to put the last I win in there.

[1007] Yeah.

[1008] And then go just wait by the mailbox, see if your check shows up.

[1009] It never has.

[1010] Yeah.

[1011] And it never will.

[1012] Okay, bye.

[1013] I won.

[1014] No, you did it.

[1015] I won.

[1016] I won.

[1017] No, you admitted.

[1018] I won.

[1019] I won.

[1020] I won.

[1021] I won.

[1022] I won.

[1023] I won.

[1024] I won.

[1025] I won.

[1026] I won.

[1027] I won.

[1028] I won.

[1029] I won.

[1030] I won.

[1031] I won.

[1032] I won.

[1033] I won.

[1034] Stop it.

[1035] This is so stupid.

[1036] I want.

[1037] You have children.

[1038] I'm saying I won so fast that it's just a high -pitched.

[1039] No, you have children.

[1040] You have to be the one who says, this needs to stop.

[1041] I win.

[1042] I just did an infinite number of I -wins.

[1043] No, I did infinity times.

[1044] They don't end.

[1045] Infinity times.

[1046] I win so many times more.

[1047] And then I'm a great god standing on top of that infinity, and I just put it in a snow globe.

[1048] I am the almighty god.

[1049] And I'm, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.

[1050] Do you think Malcolm Gladwell is listening to this?

[1051] This is so stupid.

[1052] Malcolm Gladwell left.

[1053] a long time ago in disgust.

[1054] And you know what?

[1055] It's a tough way to win, but I'm glad I won.

[1056] That's it.

[1057] Bye.

[1058] I won by.

[1059] I won by.

[1060] We have to end this.

[1061] I won by.

[1062] I won.

[1063] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[1064] With Sonam Obsessian and Conan O 'Brien as himself.

[1065] Produced by me, Matt Goreley.

[1066] Executive produced by Adam Sacks and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Earwolf.

[1067] Theme song by the White Stripes.

[1068] Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.

[1069] Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.

[1070] The show is engineered by Will Beckton.

[1071] You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review featured on a future episode.

[1072] Got a question for Conan?

[1073] Call the Team Coco hotline at 323 -451 -2821 and leave a message.

[1074] It too could be featured on a future episode.

[1075] And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend on Apple Podcasts, or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

[1076] This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.