S6 E3: Tech Trauma | Featuring Ilyse Kennedy MA, LPC, LMFT, PMH-C

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something was wrong covers mature topics that can be triggering.

[11] Topics such as emotional, physical, and sexual abuse.

[12] Please, as always, use caution when listening.

[13] Opinions of guests on the show are their own and don't necessarily reflect my views or the views of this podcast.

[14] Please note, I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[15] If you or someone you love is being abused, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[16] If you or someone you love is experiencing a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, please call 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[17] For more resources, visit something was wrong .com Thank you so much.

[18] Hi friends.

[19] I hope you all are well.

[20] I am very excited to welcome back Elise Kennedy from Moving Parts Psychotherapy in Austin, Texas, back too.

[21] Something was wrong.

[22] Good morning slash afternoon -ish.

[23] Elise.

[24] Good morning slash afternoon -ish.

[25] Because we're in two time zones.

[26] So I'm still morning in your afternoon.

[27] Is it like dark at 11 a .m. where you are or?

[28] It is sunny, but I do have my morning coffee still.

[29] Okay.

[30] Yeah, I'm on my third personally, which we'll talk about another time.

[31] I'm very excited to welcome Elise back.

[32] Last time I spoke with her, we discussed COVID -19 at the beginning of the pandemic.

[33] And unfortunately, we are still in the pandemic.

[34] But today, I'm going to talk to Elise about something I'm calling tech trauma.

[35] I don't know if that's already a coined term out there, but a topic that I think is becoming more and more relevant, the more we live our lives online, especially this year.

[36] So welcome back, Elise.

[37] I am super excited to talk to you again today.

[38] And I really appreciate you.

[39] you giving your time to me and the show again.

[40] Thank you.

[41] I'm so excited to be back.

[42] I believe you have listened to the latest episodes.

[43] Am I correct?

[44] Yes, I have.

[45] So one of the topics we covered on the first episode of this season was catfishing.

[46] And one of the things that I heard from listeners and something I also myself couldn't sort of wrap my mind around is why people participate in catfishing and what I guess the payoff is for the person who is catfishing the other person.

[47] Yeah.

[48] So I just want to relay, as I was telling you before, I'm not a catfishing expert.

[49] I am just a scholar of Neve Shulman's work.

[50] And so these are just my own ideas about catfishing.

[51] They're not very well researched.

[52] It's just in relation to what I've seen in sessions with people I work with and what I know from both the episodes I've listened to of yours and then watching the documentary and TV show Catfish.

[53] And so I think what we often see in catfishing is people take on personas sometimes to be manipulative, like sometimes they are taking on personas to cause other people emotional distress or harm.

[54] But sometimes the taking on of personas is actually done in more of an innocent way and it just gets out of hand to where somebody is taking on a persona to connect with somebody because they don't feel comfortable connecting with somebody as themselves.

[55] So I think there are those two things that we often see with catfishing.

[56] In the way where it's done to cause harm, I think there is often a lot more happening for the person who is the catfish.

[57] I don't diagnose people who aren't in the room with me, but I think sometimes it can even be a sign of narcissism or psychopathy, and it's done in a very calculated way specifically to cause somebody emotional harm.

[58] When it's done from somebody who is actually not feeling fully comfortable with themselves and they are doing it in a way where they're trying to get to know somebody who outside of who they really are, sometimes it's done because that person is experiencing a deep shame or maybe they don't believe that person would like them if they knew who they really were.

[59] So I think it's really important to distinguish those two types of catfish that we tend to see.

[60] When somebody has discovered that they have been catfished, how would you describe what that betrayal would feel like for someone?

[61] What kind of emotions would that cause the person who's impacted by the catfish?

[62] A lot of times in the digital space, we can feel a lot more comfortable being vulnerable with people than we might when we're speaking to them face to face.

[63] And so even sometimes we end up having deeper conversations via text message than we do when we're talking to somebody face to face, we can have deep conversations on Instagram message or Facebook message.

[64] And so when somebody is so vulnerable with someone.

[65] and they have this expectation for who that person is and they've shared a lot of intimate details about themselves.

[66] The fallout can be a deep sense of shame.

[67] And in the intense emotions of the fallout, that's where we can really see the trauma happening.

[68] Like you've trusted somebody so deeply and experienced this intense betrayal.

[69] It's no different than a betrayal that we would experience in a in -person relationship.

[70] And in some ways, it's even more difficult to deal with than an in -person relationship because we're not grieving somebody real.

[71] We're grieving this person that we came to love who doesn't even exist.

[72] And that's a really hard thing to come to terms with.

[73] Absolutely.

[74] Would you consider catfishing a form of gaslighting or would you categorize it as a manipulation?

[75] I mean, not that everything has to be labeled, but you're sort of tricking someone.

[76] So I don't know what the term for that would be.

[77] Yeah.

[78] Well, I definitely consider it a manipulation and I think it can have aspects of gaslighting.

[79] I don't necessarily think that all catfish relationships, are gaslighting, but I think some can have aspects of gaslighting.

[80] So I know you have full episodes about gaslighting if anyone wants more detail on it, but how we think about it is another person leading you to believe you're crazy or leading you to question your own reality.

[81] And so I think there is a little bit of a line in whether that happens in all cats.

[82] fishing relationships because you are building a false sense of reality, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're questioning your reality, if that makes sense.

[83] But I think either way, it's a manipulation, whether it is intentional or not.

[84] What can we do from your purview to protect ourselves within these kinds of relationships.

[85] Like if for somebody who is maybe suspecting that somebody that they're speaking with online is not who they say they are.

[86] Yeah, that is a really tricky thing, especially while we're in COVID times.

[87] And some of us may be interacting more with people online than we would otherwise.

[88] And just thinking about how we live, in a world now where online dating is a really normal occurrence.

[89] We do have all of these digital ways of meeting people.

[90] While you don't want to stop yourself completely from being vulnerable, making sure that you have the tools to protect yourself and really decipher who someone is.

[91] Just from what we've seen, like on Catfish the show, I think about most people have capabilities to FaceTime.

[92] So if somebody is saying that they can't FaceTime, that's usually a red flag.

[93] Google image search is your friend.

[94] And not giving out too much detailed personal information before you're really positive that the person is who they say they are.

[95] I think it's really important here, too, that we don't victim blame.

[96] And I think that can even happen sometimes on the show Catfish.

[97] Like, they say it in a playful way.

[98] And usually they do a good job of supporting the victims.

[99] But at the same time, we can watch that show and think, like, well, why would you do that?

[100] Like, you should have known when they said this that they weren't who they say they are.

[101] Humans are built for connection.

[102] And if we're struggling to find connection in our regular everyday life, it makes sense to seek it elsewhere.

[103] And of course, we have the hope that some wonderful person that we meet is going to actually exist and be who they say they are.

[104] I think in wanting to build relationships and having hope.

[105] hope for ourselves.

[106] Sometimes that causes us to let our guard down easier.

[107] And that actually makes a lot of sense.

[108] And it's not stupid if you fall into a catfishing scheme.

[109] It really, I think, happens in that hope for connection.

[110] And so I also want to highlight that as we're talking about how we can protect ourselves.

[111] We heard in the last episode a really chilling story about Jez, a friend of mine who went on this sort of blind date and then discovered that she was unknowingly meeting up with a predator of some kind.

[112] And luckily, she was unharmed in the occurrence and people stepped in and intervened on her behalf.

[113] But it really opened my eyes to a form of risk from online dating that I didn't ever even connect in my mind.

[114] What are some important boundaries that we can set to protect ourselves when we are online dating because it seems like online dating is really the most used tool when it comes to dating during a pandemic right now for single folks.

[115] Yeah.

[116] And the really tricky thing right now about online dating during the pandemic and safety is that a lot more people are meeting up in non -public places because we're trying to protect ourselves from COVID, plus in some locations, a lot of places are still closed down.

[117] And so one thing to keep in mind, especially during COVID times, is to still try to meet up in public places.

[118] Parks are open and are safe for social distancing.

[119] Just because you're excited to meet somebody, you don't have to meet them at your home.

[120] And before you truly know somebody setting those boundaries in place, like not telling them exactly where you live yet, you can talk through the app until you're ready to give out your phone number.

[121] A good safety measure is even not giving out your phone number until you've met somebody in person, making sure that your friends or family know where you are, possibly taking a screenshot of the person's person's person's.

[122] profile to send to your friends and family so that they know who you're meeting up with or who has the profile of the person that you're meeting up with.

[123] And also, if for any reason you are nervous, there's an awesome free app called Noonlight that is a panic button.

[124] You can hold down the panic button and release it if you feel like you're in danger.

[125] They will then ask you to put in a code.

[126] If you don't put in the code, they try calling you.

[127] If you don't answer, they call the police and alert them to your location.

[128] So that's, yeah.

[129] And I have accidentally pressed it before and can testify that their service is amazing.

[130] They actually, when they called me, I said, oh, sorry, I actually didn't mean to press it.

[131] I was in a little bit of a weird area, but I didn't mean to press the panic button and I didn't get a chance to put my code in.

[132] And then the next day, they actually texted me to make sure I was okay.

[133] Wow, that's amazing.

[134] I'll have to link that in the show notes as well for everyone.

[135] Yeah, absolutely.

[136] So that's a great app to have if you are fearing for your safety.

[137] But just because it's COVID and you're excited to meet someone doesn't mean you have to go outside your boundaries to do so.

[138] That's awesome advice.

[139] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[140] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[141] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reid was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[142] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[143] What happens next?

[144] Depends on who you ask.

[145] Was it a crime of passion?

[146] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[147] This was clearly an intentional act.

[148] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[149] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[150] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[151] Everyone had an opinion.

[152] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[153] To end in a mistrial, it's just a, confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[154] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[155] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[156] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[157] I'm Dan Tversky.

[158] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[159] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[160] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[161] She's like, I can't.

[162] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[163] It's like doubling and tripling, and it's all these girls.

[164] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[165] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[166] Well, you were holding something back.

[167] Intentionally.

[168] Yeah, well, yeah.

[169] No, it's hysteria.

[170] It's all in your head.

[171] It's not physical.

[172] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[173] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[174] Or is it something else entirely?

[175] Something's wrong here.

[176] Something's not right.

[177] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[178] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[179] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[180] You can binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[181] One of the things I've heard from a few of my friends is that there's some harassment and abuse that happens through the comment or message profile.

[182] it sounds like I haven't used any dating apps myself so I don't know exactly what they are like app wise but I assume they're mostly operate sort of like social media apps and so something I've heard from a few friends is like getting random messages from dudes that are just like saying shitty things to them essentially about their profile and or putting them down either the way they look or things like that I know they can probably report the person through the app but how can people set more boundaries with that kind of behavior online if they can?

[183] Yeah, I also have not been dating during app times, but I see a lot of clients who are dating during app times.

[184] And I'm definitely aware of many of the different apps.

[185] I don't know that there's a way, unfortunately, to protect yourself from harassment.

[186] But I do want to tell you that it is more than okay to just ignore it.

[187] It doesn't deserve a response.

[188] Whoever is saying those shitty things, they're just trying to get you riled up or trying to put you down.

[189] And it's horrible that people have to endure that, but it is more than okay to just exit it out.

[190] The other thing is that if you are newer to dating apps, you can search through to find the ones that are best fitting for for your values and boundaries.

[191] There are certain apps where for instance it's the female who if it's a heterosexual relationship, the female messages first.

[192] And so that kind of allows a bit of protection around the boundaries.

[193] And I think it's important when you're thinking about what app is best for you even to think about the protections that different apps have in place for their users, and especially to combat harassing and predatory behavior.

[194] That is an excellent point.

[195] And also an excellent segue to the next topic I wanted to speak with you about, which is trolls.

[196] How would you describe the difference between a troll and somebody who's maybe just being critical or rude on the internet?

[197] So, by the way, when I think about trolls, I always think about the amazing writer, Lindy West, who both has This American Life episode about confronting her troll, and she writes about it in her book, Shrill as well.

[198] The serious shrill is based off of her writing.

[199] And so I think that gives a far better description of trolls than I maybe.

[200] able to give.

[201] But when I think about trolls, I think about somebody who is intentionally harassing on the internet.

[202] Even just thinking of the word troll, you think about like a little weird looking creature that like pops out of the ground or pops out from behind a rock.

[203] That's exactly how I think about online trolls.

[204] They a lot of times even have a profile that is just a troll profile or several profiles just to write harassing stuff.

[205] When I've interacted with trolls before on Instagram, you'll delete the first comment that they say and they'll just pop back out from their rock with a whole other account to write the same comment again.

[206] And so that's kind of how I think about online trolls.

[207] Sometimes it gets to a more intense place, which is really what Lindy talks about in her essay and in her This American Life episode.

[208] She had a troll who would intentionally dig stuff up about her family and send her harassing emails, harassing phobic emails, and would talk about like her mom dying and stuff like that.

[209] Oh my gosh.

[210] And I think when it gets to that extent with trolls, it's almost like a new level of trollism to where they're much more of a harasser than just somebody popping in every now and then.

[211] What I see more commonly with being that I was an influencer before I became a podcaster and I have been a part of that community for over a decade, both in blogging and social media.

[212] I have a lot of internet friends, some of my best friends I've met on the internet.

[213] And sometimes I have experienced through my friendships and seeing it from the lens of like not just comments that are directed at myself, but of people I love and care about.

[214] And it can feel very personal.

[215] And then it starts to for me kind of fall into the more online harassment type of category.

[216] And it does hurt, even if people that you don't even know or strangers are, sending you messages that are harmful or unkind.

[217] Have you experienced this yourself?

[218] I think there are two pieces to this question specifically for mom influencers or bloggers a lot of the time they'll get people shaming them about their parenting.

[219] And we just tend to label that mom shaming because there's not a more intense term at this time for it, but I think it runs deeper than just mom shaming.

[220] Like, while we do feel a lot of shame for those comments, sometimes those comments can cause us to really bring into question, is this something wrong that I'm doing with my kids?

[221] when the commenter doesn't even have more context for what is happening or how this person actually raises their children.

[222] And so it's almost like we have these terms for what's happening with commenters, trolls, mom shaming, harassment.

[223] But like there's not a complete term that covers the depth of experience of shaming comments.

[224] For myself, I don't know if you'd call me a mental wellness influencer.

[225] That's all a very strange new world to me. I have a decent Instagram following.

[226] And so I love your Instagram.

[227] That's how I found you.

[228] I share your stuff all the time.

[229] So anybody who follows me already knows that and it's really obvious.

[230] But it's my happy place on Instagram.

[231] What did you call it mental wellness?

[232] I love that.

[233] It's like mental wellness influencing, so I'm not technically an influencer because I don't, I'm not getting paid for my work.

[234] And most of what I use Instagram for is literally just to put out my knowledge and thoughts into the universe because mental health care is really hard to access.

[235] It's really hard to find good trauma -informed therapists.

[236] and mental health care is expensive.

[237] And so for some people, Instagram has just kind of has just become a space where they can get access to mental health information, where they might not otherwise have access.

[238] And so that's my reasoning for being on Instagram.

[239] I don't know if people consider me an influencer, but I don't consider myself as that, but I do have a decent following.

[240] So as therapists, a lot of us don't answer our phones when they ring as female therapists.

[241] I one time accidentally answered my phone when it rang and somebody was pretending like he was just interested in my services.

[242] And this is when I was a newer therapist.

[243] I think they oftentimes target newer therapists.

[244] And so it seemed like a regular call inquiring about my services.

[245] And then he started to ask really sexual questions and started to say that he would really love a friendship or relationship with me. Is that something that's okay?

[246] And I politely, you know, I had my people pleasing response come up.

[247] And I was just like, you know, that's not ethical.

[248] I'm happy to refer you to another therapist if this is feeling like you would not be able to work with me. And so carried through with the phone call, I had written a post about that phenomenon because I had a feeling I wasn't the only female therapist that had experienced it.

[249] And so I said, as a young female therapist, I don't answer my work phone when it rings because I've received harassing phone calls.

[250] And I wrote a post about receiving that phone call and how uncomfortable it was for me, especially given that, and I talk about this on my page too, like I'm somebody with a sexual trauma history and that's part of why I came to this work.

[251] But that's especially upsetting to receive those phone calls if you have any kind of a sexual trauma history, too.

[252] Absolutely.

[253] And another therapist basically commented saying that if I'm having problems with countertransference, which is where you get impacted by a client's stuff, I should be doing a lot more of my own therapy work.

[254] luckily a bunch of people came in and kind of just denied this person and expressed like what the fuck are you talking about she was being really vulnerable and sharing this a lot of other people shared their stories of receiving these types of phone calls in that situation I could really piece apart like okay this person doesn't know me doesn't know that I attend weekly therapy, but I shouldn't even have to defend myself with that.

[255] This is a harassing phone call and she's victim blaming me. Like, doesn't even know you.

[256] More often than stuff like that, because on my page, I talk a lot about social justice and lately, I've been talking a lot more about politics because I think it's so intertwined with trauma.

[257] Like, we've all been enduring trauma for the last four years, if not longer.

[258] And so I'll get a lot of harassing messages from Trump supporters, a lot of harassing messages.

[259] Like when I talk about white supremacy, like somebody had messaged me to say, like, oh, are you scared of the white supremacists hiding under your bed?

[260] And yeah, as a Jewish woman in America, I am.

[261] And then I'll get a little.

[262] lot of comments that I can just end up deleting and moving on from, but sometimes it goes to a greater extent.

[263] Another thing that a lot of trolls love to do, even though I have a mental health account, is to just, I'm sure you get these two, Tiffany.

[264] Just somebody with like three followers who will just message you and say, hello, beautiful.

[265] Yes, I was just telling you before the call, Well, actually, I told my husband just last night, babe, I just got a message from a guy who's willing to pay me $8 ,000 a week to be his girlfriend.

[266] So I'm just saying.

[267] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[268] I'm Sachi Cole.

[269] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[270] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away.

[271] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[272] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[273] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[274] Follow scam influencers on the Wendry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[275] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[276] What kind of boundaries have you had to set for yourself in that aspect?

[277] Like, how do you, like, are you able to compartmentalize that and kind of shake it off and move on with your day?

[278] Do you have to set certain boundaries?

[279] How do you navigate it?

[280] Yeah.

[281] I think.

[282] the Instagram mental health space is an especially strange one because I don't share a lot of pictures of myself I am literally just sharing mental health information some of it is quote unquote controversial which social justice stuff should not be controversial but some of it some of it ends up being controversial and gets people upset for mental health professionals on Instagram.

[283] Oftentimes, it's not the same as other types of influencing.

[284] Like, so often we're not getting any money from the work that we do on there.

[285] One of the reasons I continuously am on there is because one day I want to write a book.

[286] And so some of it is like condensed.

[287] thoughts that I eventually might write in a book.

[288] But really, like, I'm just on there just to put mental health information out there and to advocate for mental health.

[289] I'm really not on there to earn extra income or anything.

[290] And I didn't think I would have to contend with steps that I needed to take for my safety.

[291] And then a few weeks ago, I had written a post that had to do with COVID because it turns out COVID is real because we've all been distancing for eight months now and people are dying.

[292] And so I wrote a post that had to do with COVID, but like an idea I personally had around something I've been seeing with having to do with COVID.

[293] And there were a lot of people saying, thank you for writing this post.

[294] I had a family member pass away due to COVID.

[295] And this is really something I've been experiencing.

[296] And then I had a few COVID deniers come on and write comments.

[297] And so I was deleting the COVID -denier comments because being a trauma -informed page, I don't want to make the people coming forward and sharing about family members that have passed away feel traumatized with people denying that COVID exists.

[298] And so one troll wrote a comment categorizing COVID as nothing more than a simple flu and all these wimps should just get over it.

[299] And I deleted the comment.

[300] He wrote it again under another profile.

[301] same exact comment, deleted it.

[302] He did that two more times, all under different profiles.

[303] Classic troll.

[304] And then I'm just doing my self -care, ride in my Peloton.

[305] Cody Rigsby was talking to me about wellness and playing probably Nikki Minaj.

[306] And then I got a phone call to my work line because since originally my Instagram was just for marketing purposes, I have like a contact me on my Instagram.

[307] So you can easily just call me. This guy ended up calling my work line and leaving me a harassing message saying like, how dare you deny people's freedom of speech?

[308] I didn't listen to it or look at it more than that.

[309] but it was really scary that this person went out of his way to call me. And then the thing that especially pissed me off is I went into a therapist's marketing group because it was the only place I could really think of to try to check in about what sort of safety measures people might be taking if they are in the Instagram wellness space and have a larger following.

[310] And I said, like, you know, I use Instagram a lot for marketing.

[311] And I'm wondering if anyone has good safety measures that they've taken because I still want people to be able to find my practice.

[312] But I also want to stay safe.

[313] And I've received a harassing phone call recently.

[314] And literally the only response that I got was really pretty victim, blamey, shamy, and just said, I keep my Instagram account private and wouldn't write anything that I wouldn't want clients to see.

[315] And I was just like, okay, that's not what I was asking.

[316] But thank you for that word.

[317] That's so frustrating.

[318] Yeah, but I did, I definitely took my phone number off my Instagram, so it wouldn't be as easy to find.

[319] And so I am still working on those safety measures.

[320] Something I've heard a lot about from friends lately is having to set boundaries with parents or extended family members and their aggressive behavior or comments online.

[321] I think this can come up a lot when people are discussing politics and the pandemic, whether this might mean like family leaving rude or hurtful comments or bringing up in real life things that they're seeing family members post and sort of confronting them about their beliefs or things they've seen them post online.

[322] Do you have tips on how you can stay connected with your family but create those boundaries?

[323] Yeah, I think it's important to remember that there's a fine line between being a social justice advocate who won't let racist comments fly and getting harassing messages or interactions from family members.

[324] A lot of times in the social justice space, we see that especially for white folks, it's up to us to stand up to our racist family members and to stand up.

[325] And to stand up and try to change our family members' minds about politics if we feel they're making a poor decision.

[326] And while I think that's absolutely true, there's a big difference between being able to have a civil or even heated conversation about it and experiencing actual harassment from family members.

[327] And so I think it's important to recognize if there's intimidation involved, like are they pushing your buttons just to get you riled up?

[328] Or are they actually interested in a conversation and able to hold their ground with differing points of view?

[329] Are they engaging with you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable.

[330] Like they are leaving a lot of comments that are either hurtful to you or would even be hurtful to the people reading them, especially thinking about if it's a white family member saying something like, for example, against Black Lives Matter, do you have Black friends who might read that and it might be hurtful or even traumatic for them.

[331] Just like in real life, we're allowed to set digital boundaries with family.

[332] So if it's gone beyond the point where you can say as much as you can to stand up to that family member around racism, homophobia, anti -Semitism, whatever it may be, and you've taken it as far as you can handle, as far as your mental health can handle, then it's more than okay to just block them.

[333] And just like in setting a real life boundary, you can explain, this is the reason I had to do it.

[334] I don't want that rhetoric on my page.

[335] I don't want that rhetoric in my online space.

[336] Like, you're allowed to control what what shows up on your social media accounts.

[337] And so you can say it's my account, it's my page, and I just don't want that rhetoric there.

[338] Oftentimes, if a family member is being harassing or just crossing boundaries in the digital space, it may be difficult for them to understand when you do end up seeing them in person, why you had to set that digital boundary.

[339] And so, So you might have to set a real life boundary as well for a little while until things settle.

[340] But in terms of being an activist within your family and getting your points across, you do not have to move past it being a detriment to your mental health.

[341] We do have to call out racism, homophobia, transphobia, anti -Semitism, etc. etc. But it should not be a detriment to your mental health and you should not be putting yourself at risk with family to do it.

[342] Absolutely.

[343] I couldn't agree more with all of that.

[344] That is amazing advice.

[345] And since I have you here, one of the things that I wanted to talk with you about is something I saw on your Instagram page.

[346] And it was a topic that I haven't seen before.

[347] And I believe you use the term COVID betrayal.

[348] And it really intrigued me because recently I've had two people that I love very much in my life who have had sort of just uncool situations happen where somebody had COVID and exposed them knowingly or was reckless in exposing them to COVID.

[349] I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that and maybe give some general examples of what that might look like for people.

[350] Yeah, I am not sure.

[351] I have looked it up and it seems that this is a term that I have coined and I have yet to write a full blog post about it yet.

[352] But I have seen in working with clients during the pandemic, I have seen this phenomenon of boundaries being violated in terms of COVID because we've all had to set, which is partly the fault of the government, we've all had to kind of set our own boundaries around COVID.

[353] For a while, there were very strict boundaries in place for us that dictated what businesses were open and what wasn't, but now that everything in a lot of places has really opened back up, but we're keeping an eye on the numbers and seeing that the numbers are higher than ever right now, we've really been left to form our own boundaries around COVID.

[354] And everyone has to make the best decision for their own mental health, for the mental health of their families, and the physical health of their families.

[355] And so while we can't judge people for the decisions they're making, except people who are are anti -maskers, of course.

[356] We...

[357] I mean, that goes without saying.

[358] Yeah.

[359] And the people who do the penis mask where it's, their nose is sticking out, those people we can judge.

[360] But we have to respect the boundaries of the people around us.

[361] And I've noticed, as we've all had to be kind of left to our own devices to figure out our own COVID boundaries, there are different boundaries within households and or extended friend group or family group or pod whatever it may be has to decide on the boundaries that fit for everyone in the household and these are just the agreed upon norms during the pandemic um so like for example in my household.

[362] I have my two young kids, my husband, and then my sister -in -law is living with us during the pandemic.

[363] And so whenever we decide on new boundaries, we get everyone together and check in with everyone around what feels good for us, because we have two of us with asthma.

[364] And so our boundaries may be a bit stricter than in other households.

[365] We just made a pass that, which we almost like held a town hall to get our points across.

[366] My sister -in -law and I relayed to my husband why we felt okay seeing adult people in person at a distance.

[367] And so we lifted one of our COVID boundaries just a little bit.

[368] But when those boundaries or norms are not respected, when we find out somebody in our household or pod or romantic partnership or family has gone outside of COVID boundaries, but yet has still shown up and acted with us like they are within the COVID boundaries, like showing up without a mask, even if they've just seen people who were all unmasked.

[369] I noticed a lot of my clients were either struggling with these boundary violations where it would feel like the person had an affair, or they were struggling with, um, figuring out what their boundaries were and having a lot of arguments around how they can and can't stretch the boundaries.

[370] And so I did a little post about what I call COVID betrayal, which is basically just going outside of the agreed upon COVID rules or norms.

[371] So it means that somebody else's safety was put at risk because of something that you did.

[372] So like in my own household, it wasn't to the extent of it feeling like an affair.

[373] But I was pretty pissed off when my husband didn't check in before he got a haircut.

[374] That would have been something that was kind of outside my COVID boundary and my hair looks like shit.

[375] So that's not fair.

[376] But so that fell outside of my COVID boundary.

[377] and we had to have a conversation around that.

[378] And then another betrayal that happened in our household is my sister -in -law was pretty upset when our kids were getting too close to their friends who have looser COVID boundaries than us.

[379] And so that was another betrayal that we had to kind of deal with and rectify.

[380] So sometimes the betrayals can be more serious, like being in an enclosed space with people outside of your pod without a mask.

[381] And sometimes they can be a little looser, but it still feels really intense.

[382] I think the reason it feels especially intense with betrayals that happen around COVID is because we all are literally at risk right now and experiencing these threat risk.

[383] responses.

[384] And so we're already in prime position to get into fights with people and to feel like our safety was put in jeopardy.

[385] And so it can feel really disappointing when it feels like somebody that you really care about has put your safety in jeopardy.

[386] Thank you so much for sharing that.

[387] And I appreciate you sharing a bit of your personal experience as well.

[388] I think that's super helpful.

[389] I've even heard of people being exposed or having to navigate sort of frustration with coworkers as well, either, you know, not following the sort of agreed upon protocol at work or things like that.

[390] And so I think it can, it can definitely impact relationships from in all different areas of our lives for sure.

[391] Yeah, it's really hard because we're all just trusting and relying on each other right now.

[392] And so to feel like some of the people around you are not trustworthy can be really disappointing.

[393] Yeah.

[394] We all got to look out for each other right now.

[395] And I don't know.

[396] We got to do something because this is just nuts right now.

[397] I really hope everybody is staying safe and doing what they can to protect themselves and their families.

[398] Thank you so much again for coming on the show.

[399] It is always such a pleasure having you and I really respect your insight and your knowledge and everything that you bring to the episode.

[400] So thank you again for being here.

[401] Thank you so much for having me. It is such a joy.

[402] I would love to remind everybody where they can follow you.

[403] Yeah.

[404] So I'm moving parts psychotherapy on Instagram.

[405] and Facebook, and you can check out my website, www .movingpartpsychotherapy .com.

[406] And then we have a podcast, hopefully coming before 2021, but it's unclear right now.

[407] And so you can follow our podcast at Reading the Backs of Giants, and you can follow us at Reading the Backs of Giants.

[408] giants on Instagram to find out when that will be dropping.

[409] That is so exciting.

[410] Can you tell me a little bit about what the podcast is going to be about?

[411] Yeah.

[412] So we are actually going to be going back through some of the history of psychotherapy and teaching people about a bit about what we learn in theories and then also talking about the problematic nature of the beginnings of psychotherapy.

[413] So our first episode is called Who the Fuck was Freud?

[414] I am so excited about this.

[415] Like, are you kidding me?

[416] I actually hadn't even asked you yet what your podcast was going to be about.

[417] We had spoken about it in passing before.

[418] I knew it was going to be good, but damn, I'm so excited about this.

[419] The psychology nerd in me is very, very excited.

[420] This is awesome.

[421] I'm definitely looking forward to checking that out.

[422] And I will be sure to share on my Instagram as well when it's ready.

[423] But definitely go and follow Elise.

[424] Thank you again for being here.

[425] I so appreciate it.

[426] And I hope to have you back in 2021 when we've all made it.

[427] Yes.

[428] And we will make it.

[429] Yes.

[430] We will make it.

[431] Yes.

[432] Thank you.

[433] Thank you.

[434] Can you say it again?

[435] Just kidding.

[436] You think you know me. You don't know me well at all.

[437] Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[438] Music on this episode from Gladrags.

[439] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[440] If you'd like to help support the growth of something was wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, and support at patreon .com slash something was wrong.

[441] Something Was Wrong now has a free virtual survivor support forum at Something Was Wrong .com.

[442] You can remain as anonymous as you need.

[443] Thank you so much for listening.

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