Judd Apatow

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm your host, Judd Apatow.

[2] I'm joined by...

[3] Leslie Mann.

[4] Oh, wonderful.

[5] That makes sense.

[6] Today's guest is Judd Apatow.

[7] He is an American filmmaker, actor, and comedian.

[8] He's a director, a producer.

[9] He's all the things.

[10] He's got perhaps the most impressive list of comedic credits someone can have.

[11] Yeah.

[12] Freaks and Geeks, 40 -year -old Virgin, Superbad, Knocked Up, Trainwreck, Anchorman, Stepbrothers, Pineapple Express, forgetting Sarah Marshall, the Big Sick.

[13] He also produced Gary Goldman's The Great Depression on HBO that's on right now, and he's got a book that's coming out tomorrow, November 12, which is entitled, It's Gary Shanling's book, which will be a fascinating read.

[14] Also, Judd has a surprise guest stopped by because they had a meeting afterwards, so we have a late joiner in the episode, so look for that.

[15] So please enjoy Jud Epitow.

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[18] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[19] He's an armchair expert.

[20] He's an upcher expert.

[21] Lizzie says her best, by the way.

[22] How is Leslie?

[23] She's great.

[24] You guys have been married for 23 or been together.

[25] 23 years?

[26] Since 95.

[27] That's fucking crazy.

[28] Do you ever marvel at the span of time yourself?

[29] At my longevity.

[30] Have we started?

[31] Yeah, we're starting.

[32] ABR.

[33] Are we slipping in?

[34] Yeah.

[35] I marvel at anything that works.

[36] Yeah, we met in 95.

[37] And yeah, it's been a long, great ride.

[38] But, you know, it's simple.

[39] You may feel this way.

[40] It's easier when you think I don't deserve this.

[41] how did this happen you mean that in that makes you a better partner or yeah because you just know if we're fighting i'm wrong and i'm glad she's still here i don't understand why she's not trying to escape yeah because the money's now have hers right i mean in some level laws of california half the shits hers you go straight to the cash talk of course i do it's all about getting to the how how do we split up the money that's what the show's basically about i generally go straight towards whatever I have fear surrounding.

[42] I look at it just like, okay, she's got her George of the Jungle stack.

[43] Then I got my Jill Big Taylor stack.

[44] We got all this in paperwork figured out, you know.

[45] We got self -depried and heavyweights money over here.

[46] He's sandbagging.

[47] These are not his hits, Monica.

[48] I'm familiar with the hits.

[49] You know, it's funny, I was just telling Monica last night.

[50] I was like, yeah, the wild thing is I knew Leslie, not in 95, but But darn near, like 97 maybe.

[51] Sure.

[52] Met her in the groundlings.

[53] We were both in like level one or two.

[54] Yeah, I remember when she was doing it.

[55] Yes.

[56] And I was telling Monica, the really confusing thing about Leslie, we were all dead broke.

[57] And when we went outside, she had a brand spank and new Ford or Tahoe.

[58] Well, that's from commercials.

[59] Yeah.

[60] You know, in the early days, especially back then, I don't know what the residuals are.

[61] Monica knows really well.

[62] Yeah, they've gone downhill, though.

[63] But in the old days, you know, you'd get a commercial and you'd make $20 ,000, $30 ,000.

[64] I remember I lived with Adam Sandler when I was first starting out, and he got an Amex commercial.

[65] Oh, boy.

[66] And it was all like, young goofy Adam buying stuff with his first credit card.

[67] Yeah.

[68] And then the check started rolling in, and we were like, how do we get one of these commercials?

[69] Yeah.

[70] And I remember getting a commercial agent.

[71] Yeah.

[72] And I would go in for these commercials, but I didn't know how to act.

[73] And I hadn't taken any acting classes.

[74] I went in for this Jack in the Box commercial and I couldn't stop pointing.

[75] So everything I said, I would just point and point.

[76] And the guy was like, could you just do it one more time and not point?

[77] And I would do it again, like the new Jack in the Box Burger, and I'm pointing and pointing.

[78] And then he took a roll of tape and he taped my hand to my leg.

[79] Oh, wow.

[80] And then I just stopped going to...

[81] He really was fighting for you.

[82] I was just going to say modern day casting directors would not have worked with you that much.

[83] They wouldn't have wasted tape on someone.

[84] I took it as sexual.

[85] abuse.

[86] Well, when I started doing the commercial thing, yeah, I would bump into these guys, you know, older guys at these auditions.

[87] And I guess the ticket was to sell some kind of product where they just stuck with the campaign for years, right?

[88] And I guess like candy was infamous for that.

[89] This is in the 90s.

[90] Yeah.

[91] Where a guy, you know, some guy was like, you know, I did a Starburst commercial and I made 390 grand and ran for seven years and I was just, it was blew my mind.

[92] But I think more and more, and this holds true, really at every level of it, there's a lot of lore.

[93] There's a lot of promises.

[94] You keep getting to these different stations and going, wait, why am I making a fifth of what everyone else apparently is or is rumored to make?

[95] Why aren't I making what the progressive ladies making?

[96] How much money is she making?

[97] That's all anyone in Hollywood thinks every time we see a progressive insurance commercial, man, is flow raking in the cash.

[98] I hope she is oh she is again she's a groundling alum of ours and yeah she owns a home and stuff and I think how fantastic I had simple dreams when I first started to like get one of those commercials or to be allowed to be a warm up guy oh if I could just warm up the crowd at cheers because I would hear like oh you get a thousand bucks a thousand dollars to like do the crowd warm up at friends or cheers never could get those gigs never could get them by the way That's a unique gift unto itself that isn't really celebrated in the way that maybe it should be.

[99] Oh, yeah.

[100] No, it's hard because when you warm up a crowd, sometimes the taping's four hours.

[101] And every time they take a break, they're like, we're going to take a break for 20 minutes.

[102] And you've got to jump up there and give out Kit Katz and have dance competitions to keep the crowd amused.

[103] So I listened to a bit of your mare, which was fantastic.

[104] And I want everything to funnel into some viewpoint I have.

[105] Yes.

[106] Okay, so I'm projecting a ton.

[107] So whatever I say will support your feeling.

[108] For me, it'll all be confirmation bias for me, but not the listener.

[109] But that'll be the fog of war I'm in, just so you know.

[110] Because one of the things I really, really try to say are encourage as much as I can is like some flexibility with your game plan.

[111] Yes, yes.

[112] Because you're often loved by some group and not embraced by another.

[113] And you'd be foolish not to listen to who's loving you and what you're great at and all these kind of things.

[114] So I just feel like you're very emblematic of that.

[115] Sure.

[116] Does that trigger you at all the end?

[117] I bobbed and weaved.

[118] Yeah, you bobbed and weaved.

[119] Sure.

[120] And now in retrospect, you seem like an absolute genius.

[121] Because now film has become such a crazy endeavor, right?

[122] To make a comedy or to make anything but a tent pole movie seems very dicey or a high risk of failure.

[123] And so now a lot of people are like running towards TV.

[124] they have been for maybe the last I don't know eight years or something but you have always been in both worlds and again now in retrospect it seems like oh judd always knew the writing was on the wall or something right that movies were over yeah but that's not what happened right you just kind of did you go with the flow of the river a lot of the time I think uh when it comes to going to TV and away from TV I have a long history a good and bad with TV experiences so I started out writing some TV pilots.

[125] I remember I wrote one for Colin Quinn and Mario Joyner, driving a car across the country.

[126] Pete Siegel directed it, and it was half reality, half scripted.

[127] This is in the early 90s.

[128] And that didn't get picked up.

[129] And then I created the Ben Stiller show with Ben.

[130] And we were so psyched when we were going to make the best sketch show ever.

[131] And we worked really hard and got canceled after 12.

[132] I was heartbroken.

[133] I was in high school, and I fucking love that show.

[134] You were one of the people watching it at 7 .30, probably 6 .30.

[135] No, we're at the very last mile of Eastern Time Zone.

[136] Yes.

[137] And so I was so angry at our treatment because we had a supporter at the network, and then he got a promotion.

[138] Suddenly, he's not the head of the network.

[139] Now he's the head of everything, and we never hear from him again.

[140] Oops.

[141] And then there's a new guy who gets the job as the head of the network.

[142] And he instantly watches the Ben Stiller show and goes, I don't get it.

[143] Yeah.

[144] And that right there, I said to myself, how does he not get this?

[145] So whenever he would give us notes to change anything, I always said no. And I'm like, no, no, I don't take notes from the guy who doesn't get it.

[146] Like that's not the guy you take the notes from.

[147] And I'm sure it didn't help our survival.

[148] Yeah.

[149] And so then I went to movies because I was like, TV's unfair.

[150] And I worked on cable guy and heavyweights and Larry Sanders.

[151] And then finally I went back years later to the same network, to the same guy.

[152] The same guy.

[153] And did undeclared.

[154] And he did the same thing to me. Oh, God.

[155] He promised me he would get it this time.

[156] Really quick, when you were going back into the ring, did you think like, well, no, I've like accrued some.

[157] some, you know, some cachet.

[158] I'm going to be listened to this time.

[159] You never have the cachet and you think.

[160] You just don't, right?

[161] So, you know, I worked for Shandling for years on the Larry Sanders show.

[162] I just put out a book that is called It's Gary Shandling's book with all the stuff I found going through his estate, his journals, his photos, his script pages.

[163] Really quick, were you granted access to that because you had made the documentary?

[164] Did his wife go like, you are not, he didn't.

[165] I just went in the house.

[166] No one was there.

[167] No one was there.

[168] Stormed in.

[169] No, I, you know, his estates allowed me to make the documentary.

[170] And then when I made it, I found all these incredible things.

[171] And I thought, I'd love if people could just have this.

[172] Like, I'm reading Gary's journals.

[173] I wish young comedians could read it to see all the advice.

[174] And just what the journey was.

[175] What does it feel like to be going through someone's stuff?

[176] Is there like a voyeurist?

[177] Oh, it's just sad.

[178] I mean, I would just sit there.

[179] bawling you would it's it's hard to describe what it's like to read 30 years of your mentor's journals when you're so in grief but now you're getting to know him better than you knew him in life you personally yeah because now i'm in his head yeah well you're getting a probably a view into him that i can't imagine anyone did it's not like he's sharing his journal with girlfriends friends and friends or anything.

[180] Not at all.

[181] And I'm reading it, you know, sometimes years of journals in one sitting.

[182] So I'm also having a very compressed emotional experience of all of his feelings.

[183] Right.

[184] It's hard to describe how moving and sad it is to do the ride with him.

[185] Yes.

[186] And what percentage of the journals are basically just a tally of the day before and what percentage are musings on life, you know, emotional entries, like if you had to assign the percentages, how...

[187] It's 90 % supporting himself and 10 % what happened is trying to give himself advice.

[188] He's developing his higher voice.

[189] So when you read the journals, what you think is, I don't know what he was feeling, but it must have been rough, dark, based on this positive voice in his journal saying, hey, you know what you need to do?

[190] Whereas my journals, when I do them, are just trying to get out the bad voice.

[191] So the journal is all whining and complaining.

[192] I would fear my family ever reading them when I am gone.

[193] Because it's just trying to get out toxic stuff.

[194] But Gary didn't do that.

[195] You also, when you write in a journal, you must have some voice, because I even have the voice that I think, hmm, these could potentially be of interest to somebody at some point.

[196] Never.

[197] I just want to burn them this soon.

[198] I think about burning them now.

[199] because they're just a whiny bitch.

[200] There's nothing of value in it.

[201] They're not funny.

[202] They're just, get out the worst part of your mind.

[203] Yeah, the voice that's telling you you're a piece of shit.

[204] Yes.

[205] But Gary's voices, drop your ego, do things with love.

[206] Well, he seemed to be on a path, right, of self -exploration and trying to be mentally healthy.

[207] You interviewed him, this is this really fun thing, Monica.

[208] Judd had in high school, got involved with the high school, was it a radio station?

[209] Yes.

[210] And then interviewed.

[211] all these people when he was 16 years old, like Seinfeld and Chanling and, you name it.

[212] You somehow got your way.

[213] And he has all the tapes.

[214] Oh, that's so cool.

[215] Very fascinating on a lot of levels.

[216] But Shanley was revealed in that.

[217] He was a writer of sitcoms and then decided to do stand -up.

[218] I thought one of the funniest things, I didn't have time for it in the documentary.

[219] But Gary started out, he wrote some episodes of Welcome by Cotter and Sanford and Son.

[220] So I'm talking to the guy who was Gary's boss at Welcome Back Cotter And Gary was assigned a script He wasn't on staff They gave him money to write a script I think he wrote a second script And then Gary got in a terrible car accident And he almost died It was like a rainy day And someone stopped in front of him And then he kind of had a little fender bender from behind He gets out to look at the damage While he's in between the two cars someone hits Gary's car from behind and crushes Gary between the two cars.

[221] Oh, my God.

[222] So he has surgery, he has to have his gallbladder removed, and he's in the hospital.

[223] And when he's in the hospital, I think he's considering quitting writing sitcom comedy and just being a stand -up.

[224] Because when he is under, he has a religious experience.

[225] They're doing surgery on him, and he said that he heard a voice say, do you want to continue living Gary Shandling's life?

[226] And then he said yes.

[227] And that when he woke up, he remembered everything that all the doctors said during the surgery.

[228] Just one of those experiences that he said made him realize there's more happening than this life.

[229] Uh -huh.

[230] There's something after this.

[231] May he be right.

[232] Exactly.

[233] That's all I got is Gary telling me. But he always had that confidence.

[234] And oddly, as neurotic as he was, no fear of death.

[235] Oh, really?

[236] Because of that.

[237] Yeah.

[238] So in the journals, he's having major sources.

[239] surgeries.

[240] There's no, oh, my God, moments.

[241] It's all get comfortable with death.

[242] Don't fear death.

[243] So I speak to the head writer of Welcome Back Cotter, and he says that Gary called him from the hospital and said, you know, if you tell the insurance company that you were hiring me to be a staff writer next year, I'll get way more insurance money for, like, He's on the grift already.

[244] And the guy says to me that Gary wasn't going to get that job.

[245] Right.

[246] And indicated that he didn't even think Gary was that good.

[247] So he said to Gary, well, but you can't be a staff writer, right, Gary?

[248] And Gary's like, yeah, he's like, okay, you could tell him that you were going to be.

[249] Uh -uh.

[250] Oh, that's great.

[251] But to me, that was like the funny secret of it all.

[252] Right.

[253] is that Gary has this legend of being this incredible staff writer and the one guy who worked with was like he wasn't that good at that point.

[254] And it was all on the shoulders of a slipping fall scam basically.

[255] Like a pro bono 30 % lawyer who advised him.

[256] But Gary got some money.

[257] I don't know if he got 10, 20 grand or something.

[258] But I think that was his buffer to really focus on stand -up.

[259] Yeah.

[260] When I think about you, Do I think about the fact that you're obsessed inexplicably at a young age with comedy and stand up specifically?

[261] And, you know, like some kid would want to fucking call you now from their high school radio station.

[262] And that 16 -year -old has some fantasy about your life that then he wants.

[263] And isn't it weird how this whole thing kind of perpetuates itself?

[264] And I would imagine you'd really get confronted by that sitting down and going through the life of someone you kind of idolized and had a fantasy about.

[265] Absolutely, because I had this weird experience with Gary, which is I'm in my early 20s.

[266] The most important early job I got was being asked to write jokes for the Grammys for Gary.

[267] And we just got along really well as to neurotic Jewish guys.

[268] And he took me to New York to watch them rehearse and shoot the Grammys and be on stage.

[269] Right.

[270] And I'm, you know, I'm 21, 22 years old.

[271] And now I'm on stage with Sinatra and Bono and Peter Gabriel's running by in Springsteen and En Vogue.

[272] Oh, sure.

[273] And then suddenly Gary's like, hey, you should read this book.

[274] And it's this, you know, Buddhist book, transforming problems into happiness.

[275] Now, I had no religion at all.

[276] Right.

[277] And suddenly he's like, I think this would help you.

[278] And the book has a very simple Buddhist premise, which is when bad things happen.

[279] you should think, oh, this is an opportunity to fix something about myself or learn something about myself.

[280] So actually, every time you get a problem, you should be psyched.

[281] Right, because it's going to mark an episode of change probably, or evolvement.

[282] And as a guy with no spiritual background, parents didn't take me to temple once.

[283] My whole life, you know, their only religion was, nobody said life was fair.

[284] That's all I heard in my house.

[285] That's a pretty good religion.

[286] So that's a life -changing moment for a neurotic kid to go, wait a second, I'm not supposed to just bitch about the bad things, that the bad things are the good things?

[287] Right, the things are happening for you and not to you.

[288] All of that.

[289] And I never considered any of it.

[290] So as a mentor, it wasn't just comedy, it was that.

[291] So now, when you talk about everything reversing, I think, well, the best thing I can do is put all that in a book.

[292] So some 19 -year -old comedian or creative person or anybody can find out what I found out.

[293] And then, in a way I become Gary because I'm just trying to keep the lessons going to someone else.

[294] Keeping the ball in the air.

[295] Yeah.

[296] And so you did, you were able to read that and find it profound and try to implement some of it into your life?

[297] Well, I always have, you know, to varying degrees of success.

[298] I mean, the interesting thing about Gary is, you know, you wouldn't say that Gary was this calm, evolved, centered guy.

[299] But you also wonder what would have been if he didn't do that?

[300] Yes.

[301] Yes.

[302] Yes, I think that's the most crucial thing people need to evaluate when they're thinking about a person.

[303] It's like, sure, they're not great, but this might be the best version of them.

[304] Oh, absolutely.

[305] And that's how I feel about myself.

[306] Like, you know, I guess this is the journey.

[307] It's a bumpy journey to get less crazy, to learn more, to calm down.

[308] We were laughing the other day.

[309] I worked on Gary Goldman's has this HBO special, a stand -up special.

[310] And Gary Goldman, he got terrible depression where he had to.

[311] to move back in with his family at 37, 38 years old.

[312] He was really debilitated, put himself in a psych ward.

[313] And then he got better.

[314] He felt better and wrote this incredible stand -up routine about depression that's called The Great Depression that's gonna be on HBO this coming month, October 5th.

[315] And we were just talking about how Bruce Springsteen wrote a whole book about depression.

[316] Yeah, yeah.

[317] That we all learned from his book, that the reason why he was doing four -hour shows was he did not want to be in the world.

[318] Right, sure.

[319] He wanted to be on stage.

[320] And even someone like him is on this journey of trying not to be crazy, dealing with emotional issues.

[321] Yeah.

[322] And just figuring it out in his 50s and 60s.

[323] Well, we watched, have you seen Norton's movie yet?

[324] Have you gone to a screening?

[325] Edward's new movie.

[326] Yes.

[327] You saw it?

[328] Yes.

[329] Incredible.

[330] So we saw it yesterday.

[331] Motherless Brooklyn.

[332] Motherless Brooklyn.

[333] And the one line that I just uncontrollably giggled at because it resonated so much was when he's talking to Michael K. Williams.

[334] And he goes, well, at least you've got this trumpet to funnel that craziness through.

[335] And he goes, yeah, but there's a lot of hours in the day where I'm not playing the trumpet.

[336] And I was like, oh, it was like straight into who I am.

[337] It's like I would have these little windows of freedom of performing or this or that.

[338] And then it's just completely dangerous if I'm not doing that thing.

[339] And do we want to fill all that time with work?

[340] Or do we try to figure out how not to be crazy in the non -trumpet time?

[341] Yes, how to live with ourselves, basically, hour to hour.

[342] Sure, minutes to minute, even being quiet.

[343] Like, I noticed, like, I'm not meditating lately.

[344] And I'm like, why?

[345] Because I just do not want to be with myself.

[346] I don't want to just like, like, it sounds like torture to sit in a quiet room.

[347] Yeah.

[348] Well, that's what I was curious about is, you know, your parents got divorced when you were 12, right?

[349] You stayed with dad, which is kind of unique, I guess, in that era.

[350] What year was that maybe?

[351] Early 80s?

[352] So that's unique unto itself.

[353] And then it can't be a coincidence that then also your obsession with comedy kind of starts overlapping that.

[354] Yeah.

[355] So personally, I got really drawn to writing simply because it was a world I would make up that I was Oz in.

[356] I could control every single element and it would go exactly where I wanted it to go.

[357] and I was so desperately seeking control of any little quadrant of my existence.

[358] And I just wonder, is there anything about when you would watch those people?

[359] Because the good ones, they're the merionette.

[360] Everyone in the audience is just along for a ride they've created out of thin air.

[361] And it's so powerful.

[362] It's like one of the most powerful things you can witness someone do.

[363] You know, it's funny.

[364] You look back and think, you know, why did I get interested in this?

[365] There's a great line from Joe Walsh.

[366] I'm sure he's used it's someone else's line about.

[367] about how, you know, your life is a mess.

[368] But looking back, it's a perfectly crafted, organized novel.

[369] Or a pollock.

[370] Now all those dribbles were intentional.

[371] But I look back and go, well, what happened?

[372] I had a grandfather who produced jazz, and he was just this balzy Jewish hustler guy who...

[373] On labels?

[374] Yeah.

[375] But in the 40s, before he even had a job, he would just work in an airplane manufacturing plan, take his money, and hire jazz guys to record songs.

[376] prints up the records himself and go to record stores and sell them.

[377] Yeah.

[378] And that's how he got in the business.

[379] But like Dizzy Gillespie he put out.

[380] Exactly.

[381] Dizzy Glezby.

[382] And Charlie Parker.

[383] And so there was like a little like, oh, you can hustle.

[384] And you also don't have to follow the path everyone tells you to.

[385] You don't go to high school and college and get your degree and then whatever that you could just do it.

[386] Yeah.

[387] And that was like, oh, I want to meet the comedians.

[388] I'll just come up with some reason to talk to them.

[389] Yeah.

[390] Oh, I'll do a radio show.

[391] But now I'm sitting down with Jay Leno.

[392] I'm grinding him for info for an hour.

[393] How do you do it?

[394] How do you write a joke?

[395] How do you get into the club?

[396] That's what's so clear about these interviews.

[397] Monica, it's like just vaguely about them.

[398] It's more like, please give me the equation by when I'll end up with this result.

[399] Well, yeah, they're in front of you.

[400] Why wouldn't you ask?

[401] Like, that's your opportunity to find out.

[402] But I do think it's unique to you because I think me in that opportunity, I would have been, even more repugnant, I would have been trying to show them how funny.

[403] I was on the phone.

[404] They'd be like, oh, they'll see that I'm one of them, and I don't know what they're going to do.

[405] They're going to vouch for me at some comedy club.

[406] I did not have that confidence.

[407] Occasionally in the tapes, you hear me try to make a joke, and it is rough.

[408] There's a moment where I'm like, I'm talking to Jay Leno, and Leno, you know, is a club comic at that point, and he's on Letterman a lot in the early 80s, and I say, you know, so where do you think you are in your career?

[409] I mean, you know, you're doing really well, but you're not exactly playing the, Universal Amphitheater.

[410] A weird insulting thing to say to him.

[411] Nagging him.

[412] My grandma was friends with this comedian Tody Fields and Tody Fields was a Joan Rivers type who was riotously funny.

[413] I went to see her perform.

[414] She had diabetes later in her life and she did a comeback tour with one leg.

[415] Oh, boy.

[416] So I saw at the Westbury Music Fair and the crowd just went crazy for her.

[417] And I think on some unconscious level I thought I kind of feel like someone with one leg like I I feel different yes and look at she's getting standing ovations and they adore her for her personality that's what I liked about stand -up like oh you don't have to be the most handsome person you don't have to be the quarterback yeah that's liberating right yeah comedians more than any group come in every shape and size and ethnicity yeah and you're your thought of is cool like wait the weirdos are cool yes that hit me hard is that little kid also a total meritocracy in that if you slay you slay and people will come to see you and there's no power dynamic that you have to manipulate in that way i like that because i was always picked last in gym class and i hated that other people decided my value yes and i did think that like oh any murphy's the funniest guy in the world like there's no way he's going to be mistreated if he can be that funny yes he's going to win yeah and so yes the meritocracy aspect of it i felt comfortable with and then people would say well it takes like 10 years to figure out how to do it i'm like okay i'm gonna start at 15 right so 25 i'm the biggest star in the world i was deluded like that but it made me motivated there's like uh you know there's a prerequisite ingredient list for anyone to succeed in this and there's a lot of stuff in there and some of it's like hard work and diligence a monocum of creativity and then a lot of it's arrogance delusion ego you know like you can't underestimate you know we've interviewed a few surgeons now yeah and surgeons are the only people I've talked to that approach us as far as there's unbridled arrogance it's crazy open your brain and I know what to do with your brain I can do it it's like well hold on and no no one can get in someone's brain and tinker but you must believe that to succeed at it so it's like I think all of us try to like wrangle it and point it in a productive direction and then stay on top of it enough but let it go enough i mean it's it's really a wild horse to be riding at all times because as you said like when you co -created the ben stiller show you were virtually the show runner of that right or you were officially the show runner yeah me and ben and that's the single hardest job in hollywood being a showrunner and you don't know what the fuck you're doing but nothing right but you get you convinced someone else you did and then you're going to learn in the moment and it's all just crazy arrogant it's madness it's total madness and i'm sitting in the dark at night just like devastated by just how stressed I am and exhausted and I have all these writers and if I don't use their sketches, they hate me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[418] I would sit and read management books about how to manage people because it's all built for you to hate the guy who picks the sketches.

[419] I would read seven habits of highly affected people and I had meditation tapes.

[420] I just sit in the dark and like, I have a piece of the world and everyone in it.

[421] Oh, I was such a mess.

[422] But I do think about that as I watch my kids.

[423] You know, my daughter, Maude is on that show, Euphoria.

[424] Oh, we love it.

[425] Like, I have to look at that for her.

[426] Like, I want her to be diluted.

[427] Right.

[428] Like, oh, you want to be in this business?

[429] Well, you have to be this insane person who thinks that you can win.

[430] Yeah.

[431] Who thinks you're going to get the parts.

[432] Who can show up on a set with 100 people and do your scene without being nervous and just kick ass.

[433] And it does take this bizarre level of confidence.

[434] like I lived with Sandler and it was just a vibe around him like this is the guy right he's a chosen one he's gonna do it and in my head it was so clear Adam is going to be the biggest comedy star in the world but I look back on it and go like what was my proof at the time he was in a room with a mattress with no sheet right he would do funny phone calls all night because he just was so bored he would do funny phone calls alone he had all this energy what a purist and and he you know what was Was he?

[435] He was like an MTV, like, sidekick on a game show.

[436] Mm -hmm.

[437] Mm -hmm.

[438] So in my mind, I was so deluded.

[439] Sure.

[440] That this was inevitable, just based on his talent and charisma.

[441] But, but, like, oh, yeah, this is definitely going to happen.

[442] I wonder when it'll happen.

[443] Right, right, right.

[444] But this is going to happen.

[445] But looking back, like, we were just two lunatics in a tiny $900 a month apart.

[446] Oh, yeah.

[447] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[448] If you dare.

[449] What's up, guys, this is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[450] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[451] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[452] And I don't mean just friends.

[453] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[454] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[455] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[456] We've all been there.

[457] to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[458] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[459] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[460] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[461] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[462] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[463] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[464] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[465] The War of Attrition is really underestimated in Hollywood, because it's like if you look at the people that you were surrounded with, like you drop out of USC, you go, live with Sandler.

[466] Ben Stiller is he is in his infancy as a star all these different people and then slowly just over time you kind of look around you're like this is impossible every one of us somehow found an outlet it's like encouraging and then it also really shatters the delusion of the people that were before you that you held in some esteem right do you have these moments are like oh I guess they were fucking human they were just a group like they were just a group like Saturday Night Live or Monty Python when I was a kid I thought I want to be a part of that oh i wish i could be a part of one of those and then in your life you go wait i guess i was in a version of of a group of people you know whether it's you know leslie and seth and rud and joan oh you more than anyone navigated all these little camps seemingly with perfection because some of them are really again from my perspective on the outside like sandler's happy madison camp it's like you're in or you're out it's kind of mafia yes and you dance in and out of that always have and then you're in adam and will's camp which is interesting then you kind of assembled the freaks and geeks camp that became the seth and Evan camp and all this you know it's just very fascinating that you seem to be the only person that kind of ducting and out of all those little camps i think it's just because i'm built to be a supporter and someone that sits with people and goes you know what are we doing what do you what do you have any stories do you have a result, it's easier to move.

[467] I'm not the person trying to be the star in the group.

[468] Right.

[469] I'm the person going, I wish there was a Will Ferrell movie that he was the center of.

[470] Yeah.

[471] And so when Adam and Will say, well, you know, we have a script that's the Will movie and at that time there wasn't a movie that was just Will.

[472] You know, the thing that I tried to do is go, well, how can we get someone to do that?

[473] You know, how can we make it great?

[474] How can we get someone to allow us to do that?

[475] Yeah.

[476] And as a fan, I usually, it's not about if they're famous.

[477] It's just, wouldn't it be great if Will had a movie?

[478] Right.

[479] You're juggling a lot of things.

[480] So, A, you find someone you think is funny.

[481] Now, mind you, obviously, this gets easier and easier as you go because you've got a track record that says, oh, if he says this kid can be the lead of a movie, he can.

[482] So when you did Anchorman with Will and Adam, I guess old school had come out.

[483] Will wanted to do Anchorman.

[484] and we couldn't get anyone to make it.

[485] And this is before Elf and old school.

[486] And so he has this script.

[487] That's fucking unbelievably.

[488] It's so funny.

[489] But the original version is even wilder.

[490] The original version that I read was all the anchorman are in one plane and they're flying to the Anchorman Convention.

[491] The plane gets into a crash with like a FedEx plane or a shipping plane that's filled with monkeys and boxes of throwing stars.

[492] And so they hit each other's wings, they both crash.

[493] Now all the anchorman in Will and Adams' original idea are on the side of a mountain like that movie alive about the soccer players all start eating each other.

[494] And so they're stuck on like a snowy mountain.

[495] And then every once in a while, the monkeys just attack their camp with throwing stars.

[496] Oh, my God.

[497] And within it was also this Alicia Corningstone story about that he's in love with the woman who's clearly smarter than all the men.

[498] Right, right.

[499] And then slowly over time and not being able to get the throwing stars version made, discussions would happen.

[500] Well, is there an adjustment in the story that might allow this to get made?

[501] And then, you know, they decided, oh, maybe this story of sexual harassment and gender prejudice.

[502] Maybe that's the stories She's so much smarter than them And they're holding her down Right So they were very I mean I look at it now Very ahead of their time In mocking the awful behavior of men Yes yes yes yes Obviously the perfect guy to do at Will Who has been on here And you know He of anyone I've met is the biggest enigma It's like he's one of the funniest to ever live But he's a great dad He drinks a fun amount of drinking but no problem there he's inclusive and nice to everyone like the whole time like anything like a massage parlor hand jobs like is there any darkness well i've spent a lot of time with will and i'll tell you where the darkness is okay oh good finally but it's not that dark will really doesn't like when people are rude to other people right right right right that's the lightest darkness he's really bad at people who are not nice to other people yes it's shocking yeah he's got a gnarly protective side it is shocking and and you know to be around will and adam there's nothing more fun than watching them work and improvise and did you read the original august blowout you must have i don't know i'm that was the one where will was a car salesman oh yes and the same shit there's a fucking panther to draw people to the dealership and then it gets loose and it's like the whole movie it's like sometimes it's in the vans and sometimes it just jumps out of the place.

[503] They like out of control animals.

[504] Yes, yes.

[505] It's kind of a recurring theme in comedy, though.

[506] I mean, it's in The Hangover.

[507] Yeah, if you subscribe to the school that, like, comedy's best, when there's a plausible threat of death.

[508] Oh, sure.

[509] We were trying to do a reshoot on Anchorman.

[510] So we tested Anchorman, and there was a storyline that just didn't work at all, like an SLA terrorist group.

[511] And we shot it when we shot it.

[512] And it just...

[513] And a ton of great people were in it, right?

[514] Chuck D. and Maya Rudolph and Kevin Corrigan and there's a lot of amazing, funny stuff in it, but it didn't track.

[515] Right.

[516] If you're a hardcore fan, you could go online and Adam literally edited a second anchorman that is that story because he cut out so much of it that he was able to assemble a completely different movie that we put out a two DVD set that had like Ron Burgundy, the Adventures Continue or something.

[517] And it is really funny, but it didn't work when we tested it.

[518] It wouldn't work as a commercial version of the movie.

[519] So Adam and Will wrote this new material that we wanted to reshoot, which was Alicia Corningstone falls into the bear pit at the zoo, and Ron Bergeny has to save her.

[520] So the studio doesn't get it at all.

[521] They don't understand the joke at all, which led to the most hilarious, fascinating meeting of Adam McKay explaining to the head of the studio why bears are funny the history of bears and comedy and he actually turned out to be completely correct it saved the movie to add the bears well what's really funny is I remember Brill and I had just got back from New Zealand that I remember without a panel we had a big bear sequence and I remember him calling me like there's a bear sequence and they like panic somehow and I'm like I think there's room in the market played for two bears too bear he's competitive well then he's just worried like oh shit there's a fucking bear thing now in anchor but you but you worked with real bears bart the bear which is in you know did he kill someone bart the bear well because there was a bear that will worked with that killed the trainer yeah and when we worked with the bears you know we would go visit the bears and there's like an electric fence around well and tell people how tall the electric fences it's four inches off the ground it's a fucking wire yeah Around your ankles.

[522] And so that's how the bear knows not to, like, run at you when you visit the bear's home.

[523] So, but when the bear comes to a set, what they do is they set up string on the set.

[524] It's not electric.

[525] To replicate.

[526] The bear thinks it's electric.

[527] And so it's...

[528] So I work with Bart the bear, who's a brown bear.

[529] He's the one that Doug, the famous trainer, trained.

[530] Brad Pitt made a documentary about this guy.

[531] He was in The Edge and all these.

[532] You know, he's a very famous bear, incredible.

[533] career.

[534] And I get to set and a couple things.

[535] Bart is he lives in Utah.

[536] They flew him to Seattle, then to Alaska, then to China, then down to New Zealand.

[537] He was the first bear ever to be in New Zealand.

[538] They're not nocturnal, but it was all night shoots with Bart. They're keeping him awake with a saucepan full of coffee and a saucepan full of donuts.

[539] They tell us, here are the rules with Bart. Don't ever look him in the face and the eyes.

[540] Don't be afraid around him or he'll sense it and never run around Bart. And I promise you, my first scene in the, my first scene in the, my very first movie ever as an actor Brill goes okay so you know the guys can see the bear behind you you can't see it then eventually it occurs to you there might be something behind me you turn around look at Bart scream and run away but wait those are all three of the rules in one thing why won't Bart change oh because of that electric thing that's not electric and again I think because it was my first movie I was like okay sure this is a movie set I'm safe yeah you don't know Leslie had one on Georgia the jungle where she shows up to work and then you're here, the lion's right here next to you and Leslie's like, who's gonna handle the lion if something happens?

[541] Like what equipment do you have to deal if the lion leaps?

[542] Where's the 30 out six?

[543] And they're like, no, can't have anything on set.

[544] It senses it.

[545] So we have nothing.

[546] Yeah, and I think in terms of those things when you look back you think I have created dangerous situations because I'm green.

[547] And I didn't have someone to go, don't do that.

[548] Well, by the way, and that extends to a billion things now.

[549] Especially at the rate we're evolving, which again, I'm in favor of.

[550] I was telling Monica, you know, there was a scene in without a paddle where it's like I pop up out of this weed field and someone's got a laser pointer on my forehead.

[551] And in the script, and then I did, I do a terrible Indian accent about trading cows for me. And at the time, I didn't even cross my mind.

[552] No problem.

[553] It's going to be great.

[554] It plays huge and it's like, oh, wow, that was just in my short little 15 year career.

[555] I certainly wouldn't do that now.

[556] Sure.

[557] But anyways, it moves so fast and you really do look back.

[558] Now, some of these people that we work with are pieces of shit.

[559] Like they have bad intentions and they're dark people.

[560] And then a lot of us, I just think suffer from like the same arrogance that got us in the room going like, well, I understand why this is funny and you will too if I execute this correctly.

[561] And then in retrospect, you're a little bit like, yeah, but there's a lot of arrogance going on in my conviction about that.

[562] You know?

[563] I should have said no. Right.

[564] Or I just, you know, it's weird.

[565] It's the thing that makes you good at it is also your Achilles, obviously.

[566] That's probably not unique to our thing.

[567] Because you just want it so bad that you don't have the other conversation.

[568] And you start from a place of, oh, I have a point of view about fucking, what, Seinfeld and traffic.

[569] I have a point of view.

[570] No one has.

[571] I have to introduce you to it and bring you into it.

[572] And once you see it, you're going to get it and love it.

[573] But no one bats a thousand.

[574] Yes.

[575] You're going to fail most of the time.

[576] I mean, I always say, you know, if I make three good movies out of ten, I am rocking this industry.

[577] Right.

[578] But especially I would imagine the way that you shot, because I once, early on in that same period, I was friends with Shawna, who used to produce with you, Shawna Robertson, who introduced Kristen and I. So in very bizarre ways, you're somehow.

[579] involved in this romance yeah if i didn't work with shana shana wouldn't work with your wife right because they met on sarah marshall which you produced and right when they got back from that is when i met her i got to go to set of knocked up i was watching you guys shoot the club scene where Craig robinson okay oh you were there Danny mcbride was there that night too yes it was a very visiting it's a very cool night because yes i was just visiting Craig robinson he must have said 10 ,000 things to ladies before he let him in the club right it was rough it was rough but this is the kind of point people want to ignore is like to find the appropriate line you must step over repeatedly yes it's like you throw a bunch of shit out the wall everyone collectively agrees oh that's that one's too far so it's yeah but but in an improv scenario that you're just watching in front of everyone right yes and i was going through drawers a while back and i found all these little pieces of paper and they were the pitches from Seth and Evan Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg from that night So I'm directing but they would hand me Little pieces of paper You know with stick them on them And it would just say like I can't let you in you old as fuck Yeah yeah I remember you yelling I specifically remember you yelling Matt Yes and I never seen any Well hey I'd only been on five sets But I had certainly never seen that Where someone's just in a scene for 12 minutes And then you just tried a million things Yeah, and so it's just a sea of abuse back and forth.

[580] I mean, I remember when Craig came in to audition, and the office just started.

[581] Maybe he was on it once or twice.

[582] And so I didn't really know him, and I thought, my God, is this guy riotously funny?

[583] You don't get any funnier than this.

[584] And it is the scene, that's the scene that people mention the most.

[585] Because he says, you're old as fuck.

[586] Is that the trigger?

[587] What's the trigger?

[588] It's just the doorman, doorman, doorman.

[589] It just ends with, let's say, screaming, Dorman, Dorman, Dorman, and yelling at him.

[590] And then she's so mean to him.

[591] And then he's like, I'm sorry.

[592] It's just, I'm under a lot of pressure.

[593] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[594] You know, he starts talking about the percentages of people he has to let in the club.

[595] Yeah, all the hot people he's got a let in.

[596] And so Leslie and I, we go to see Beyonce and J .Z at the Rose Bowl.

[597] Of course.

[598] And afterwards, someone says, you want to go to the party.

[599] And so we go to this party.

[600] And suddenly J .Z walks in and he walks up to me. And he goes like, oh, my God, that's seen Dorman, Dormann, with Craig Robbins, that's my favorite scene.

[601] We watch it all the time.

[602] We watch it all the time.

[603] And he turns with his friend.

[604] What did we watch last night?

[605] He's like, oh, yeah, knocked up.

[606] And then he's like, can you stay?

[607] And because Beyonce's coming.

[608] And if you leave, she'll be mad at me. Uh -huh.

[609] And I'm like, oh, my God, I could cause marital problems between Jay -Z and Beyonce right now.

[610] And then Leslie walks in, and Beyonce runs to Leslie.

[611] He goes, oh, my God, Dorman, Dormant, Dorman.

[612] That's our favorite scene.

[613] Yeah.

[614] And when you've reached Beyonce and Jay -Z.

[615] Oh, yeah.

[616] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, retire.

[617] You've got to shut it down.

[618] You got to shut it down.

[619] You got to shut it down.

[620] It is really fun, isn't it, when you get kind of compliments from people outside your realm or people you respect in some bizarre way.

[621] I can tell you my version of that story, which is still maybe the highlight of my life.

[622] I got taken to a Lakers game by my agent, and it was the old endeavor seats that were directly next to the Lakers bench.

[623] So the Lakers bench ends in the very next seat on this given night was Dax Shepard.

[624] I am feeling like I'm on the Lakers because when they come into a huddle on a timeout, I'm right there.

[625] And I'm listening.

[626] I'm listening.

[627] And they call one time out.

[628] And they all come back and they're right next to me. And Colby's standing and the rest of the guys are sitting.

[629] And he's like, Derek, you got to fucking, you de up on this.

[630] I saw you.

[631] You walked out.

[632] You're not supposed to be on the argument.

[633] Oh, damn.

[634] Oh, you a funny motherfucker.

[635] Leans in, taps me out.

[636] And then, like, goes back to yelling at the guys and I look at my agent, Grace, he goes like, I'm on the fucking Lakers right now.

[637] I'm on the Lakers.

[638] I had season tickets for years because I was writing a basketball movie.

[639] So I got season tickets.

[640] So I got to see the whole, Celtic Prime.

[641] Yes, the whole ride of Kobe from those seats, you know?

[642] And so Kobe is at the Beyonce show.

[643] And he says to my wife, he goes like, he used to go to the games.

[644] Oh, really?

[645] I'm like, oh, my God.

[646] Wow.

[647] You never think anyone to.

[648] But of course.

[649] When you put yourself in their shoes, it's like, well, in fact, if I were at Laker, I would be caught staring at Jack Nicholson probably every game.

[650] That's all you do.

[651] That's what I used to do.

[652] Oh, my God.

[653] There's Penny Marshall again.

[654] Yeah, yeah.

[655] There's a few people there at every game and you're trying to figure out like, what is that person a real estate developer?

[656] Like, you want to know those people.

[657] You want to know all their jobs.

[658] Yes.

[659] Don't you find?

[660] Do you have this, too, where it's like.

[661] I know I hit the lottery.

[662] So I'm constantly, I feel like, how did I end up in this neighborhood?

[663] And then when I meet fellow people in my community, it drives me mad.

[664] Like, well, how did this dude my age end up getting money for this house?

[665] Like Rob McElhenney, we always talk about this because he lives on a beautiful street and the Palisades and all of his neighbors are filthy rich.

[666] And anytime he meets one of them that's his age, you're like, I don't trust fun.

[667] Like, I hit the lottery.

[668] What did you do?

[669] I never think that way.

[670] I don't, that's not like a thing with me. It's not a preoccupation.

[671] I'm more just thinking about why do my neighbors not want to talk to me. Okay.

[672] Like I walk around.

[673] I take long walks.

[674] Uh -huh.

[675] And like I'll see people.

[676] And I'm like, why does that person not want to talk to me?

[677] Or how do I'm not friends with anyone in this neighborhood?

[678] And occasionally I'll like knock on someone's door like in the business.

[679] Mm -hmm.

[680] You know, I'll just drop in.

[681] Well, like James Corden lives down the street.

[682] And so I'm like, well, I'm just knock on his door.

[683] And so I knock on his door.

[684] door.

[685] I'm like, I'm making a joke out of it.

[686] Like, I'm going to stop by unannounced.

[687] I go, that's what's about to happen to you living in this neighborhood.

[688] And then like, like, as a joke, did it again, like two weeks later.

[689] And he's the nicest guy in the world.

[690] Sure, sure.

[691] Yeah, I love him.

[692] And we're at a party and and my wife is talking to his wife.

[693] He's very nice.

[694] And she's like, yeah, Judd keeps dropping by the house.

[695] He's got some bit.

[696] And my wife's like, I don't think they want you to come over.

[697] I'm like, they love it.

[698] I think they love it.

[699] She's like, are you sure they love it?

[700] You should really find out if they really do love it.

[701] Well, now I have a, and it's regrettable, I'm trying to get over it.

[702] But I still have this chip on my shoulder about rich people.

[703] So when I see what you're talking about, I go, oh yeah, rich people, liberals, all of us liberals who act so, you know, worried about each other in the community are terrible fucking neighbors.

[704] Everyone's got like 90 foot hedges.

[705] Everyone ever wants to fucking interact with one another.

[706] You would never ask to borrow your neighbor's lawnmower or anything that happened when I grew up.

[707] That's because we saw the Tarantino movie.

[708] We know that there's hippies trying to get in.

[709] That's right.

[710] You need a hedge.

[711] None of that would happen if he had a hedge.

[712] That's true.

[713] That's true.

[714] Impenetrable head.

[715] Exactly.

[716] But you grew up, your dad, your dad was successful, right?

[717] He owned restaurants.

[718] My parents owned a restaurant when I was a kid and my grandfather owned a record label.

[719] Right.

[720] That my dad worked at.

[721] So, you know, we had an interesting experience where we were a very upper middle class, and then they got divorced and, you know, drained the funds by being in court for many years.

[722] Yeah.

[723] No one giving in.

[724] I don't think they ever settled.

[725] I think they both just gave up.

[726] Oh, wow.

[727] After like 10 years.

[728] There's nothing to fight for after a while with the bills.

[729] Let's split up this $10.

[730] And that's what would happen in my neighborhood.

[731] You'd be in a nice house.

[732] And then your parents would get divorced and you'd move into these little condo communities.

[733] Oh, sure, sure.

[734] So if someone moved to, like, hidden ridge, like, oh, their parents must have got divorced.

[735] Uh -huh.

[736] They just moved to Hidden Ridge.

[737] Yeah.

[738] Fair Haven.

[739] Did you have fear about getting married?

[740] Like my mom married four people and my dad married two.

[741] So I had a low expectation of marriage.

[742] That's a lot of people to meet.

[743] A lot of boyfriends and girlfriends and step relatives.

[744] I prefer the ratio it was flipped.

[745] I wish my dad would have had four wives and my mom only two.

[746] Because the dudes coming into your life throughout your life with showing up like, hey, I'm fucking Greg.

[747] And I got a whole new game.

[748] plan for this family and you're like hold up gregg we were doing pretty good the last couple years it's funny because i'm working on a movie now with pete davidson and and it's basically about his mom played by marissa tomey suddenly dating bill burr oh and it is about him trying to ride that relationship yeah it's about a lot of things but what i related to was what I had to deal with as a kid, my parents dating other people.

[749] And it was a very, very strange thing, especially when you're little because no one even talks you through it.

[750] No one says to you, hey, by the way, I know this is weird.

[751] That's the weirdest part.

[752] At least now maybe they do.

[753] But back in the 80s, early 80s, no one said, here's why it's uncomfortable and here's how we'll work through you realizing that your parents are sexual beings.

[754] Yes, who have needs that need to be Matt.

[755] Having come from that background, When you and Leslie got married, did you go, oh, I need a different game plan?

[756] Or what made you go, I do believe in this thing, I can make this work, or it wasn't out like that?

[757] I think I more thought about the kids generally, because I felt as a little kid and a kid from a divorce family that I didn't feel that, especially my mom, was that tuned into my experience.

[758] She was very traumatized by the fact that she was getting divorced.

[759] She didn't see that coming in her life.

[760] and I think it cracked her a little bit.

[761] Well, she went to work as a hostess at a comedy club, right?

[762] Yes, that's how I first went to a comedy club.

[763] Because my mom was very middle age.

[764] She just played tennis all day and was just very sweet and into being a mom.

[765] And then I think, you know, she got very traumatized and angry and then suddenly she's a waitress.

[766] And, you know, she was funny in the fact that, you know, she came from a successful family.

[767] And so when she had to go work, she was not happy about it.

[768] It was humiliating.

[769] It was humiliating to be suddenly the waitress in town.

[770] But as a kid, more what was affecting me was my mom's hatred of this work.

[771] And as a little kid, I thought, I think it's kind of cool to be a waitress.

[772] Like, I thought it was awesome that my mom was waiting tables and taking care of herself.

[773] I just thought it was work to be proud of.

[774] Like, I was a bus boy and a dishwasher.

[775] I just, I didn't think like, oh, this is below her.

[776] It wasn't really about that to her.

[777] I think it was about that she felt like her life had been taking.

[778] and away from her in some way, by the relationship falling apart.

[779] But it made me like hard work.

[780] I just thought, I hate that my mom hates this.

[781] Right, right, right.

[782] You know, like, I think that life is hard work, and it's okay to work hard, and all jobs are okay if you hopefully like them.

[783] You stayed with dad.

[784] It was she moved out.

[785] I just, okay.

[786] You just stayed at home.

[787] I'm staying in the house.

[788] I got you.

[789] I don't care who's here.

[790] Were you an only child?

[791] I had an older brother and a younger sister.

[792] Got it.

[793] Same set up as me. My sister left with my mom for periods.

[794] My brother moved to California.

[795] So I was in certain periods with one sibling or neither of them.

[796] Like the whole family just kind of went bonkers.

[797] A granated.

[798] For like 10 or 20 years.

[799] Or you could say forever.

[800] Sure, sure.

[801] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[802] If you dare.

[803] So you didn't say to yourself like, oh, I'm going to give this thing, this arrangement, a shot, despite I've seen it fail.

[804] Because I want to have kids and kids need that thing.

[805] Is that?

[806] I didn't have a concern about marriage from seeing their marriage implode.

[807] That's not what stuck with me. I had a more specific thing about them.

[808] Like, I knew who they were.

[809] I didn't think the institution was weird.

[810] Right.

[811] I just thought they really don't.

[812] bad actors and a yes and they're not figuring out how to come up with a solution to this so dad gives mom this much money and she figures out her life and that we're not constantly at war the war never ended yeah and i couldn't believe that they couldn't figure it out so i always thought this is very specific to them yeah and so you know i i didn't have that thank god i did that's not what i carried into it i might have carried into it i'd like to do this well I'd like to create a world for my family that's come where we solve problems in a healthy way as often as we can and to be more tuned into their experience.

[813] Yeah, but you met Leslie relatively early in your career.

[814] Yeah.

[815] Yeah, we're little.

[816] Both Leslie and I are very interested in getting sane and being strong and figuring out ways to be healthy.

[817] and figure out ways to communicate better.

[818] That doesn't mean that we haven't had, you know, difficult moments and stuff that's hard to work out.

[819] Yeah.

[820] But I think our goal is the same.

[821] You know, we have an understanding that, you know, we're normal people who came from families who did the best they could, which left us a little screwy.

[822] And how do we fix that so that we can feel better and then be better for each other and the family?

[823] Right.

[824] So it's a kind, I mean, like, I'm a self -help freak.

[825] I've been in therapy since I was 21 years old.

[826] Your favorites?

[827] I love like the Harville Hendricks has these books.

[828] He used to be on Oprah all the time.

[829] And its books have a simple theory, which is basically you have to look at your relationship as an opportunity to find out something about yourself you need to fix.

[830] And if you're mad at your spouse because they tell you the thing that you need to fix, it's a disaster.

[831] You have to look at it like that's a gift from each other.

[832] You know, someone's putting up a mirror and saying, you're acting weird this way, and you have to go, am I?

[833] As opposed to, fuck you, you got to go, wait a second, why am I doing that?

[834] And if it's considered a positive thing as often as you can to exchange those things, you have a much better chance of survival than if you're always resenting what comes up for the other person.

[835] And I would imagine the skill set to navigate a marriage that's very identical to a producer, right?

[836] Because you're taking these people who are passionate and have a point of view and they are on fire.

[837] You're working with tons of people that are, this is their first project they've written, their first movie they're going to star in.

[838] And you need to gently say to them, you're brilliant, that's great.

[839] Also, there's no third act.

[840] Also, there's no emotional stakes.

[841] You know what the ingredients are for something that works and you've got to help someone get to that without shattering their confidence, making them resentful, all those things.

[842] So do you feel like those things parallel each other nicely?

[843] I do, and in both negative and positive ways or unhealthy and healthy ways, somewhere I read that when you criticize someone, if when you criticize them, you're doing it because you want them to feel better or evolve for themselves, they can hear it if it's done with that kind of love.

[844] But when you criticize someone so they'll change to make your life better.

[845] easier, yeah, yeah.

[846] Then you're in trouble.

[847] That's the, yeah, the line that you have to stay on the right side.

[848] And I think that's a Gottman thing probably.

[849] And that's a tough one.

[850] And I think for me, I think because my parents were in conflict a lot and my mom was a bit manic, you know, when I first started working, I was writing jokes for Rosanne at like 21 years old.

[851] It was incredibly comfortable to sit with Roseanne.

[852] It felt very familiar.

[853] And it was comfortable for her because I knew what she was going through.

[854] But also I had compassion for her as a very complicated person.

[855] Yes.

[856] So you would be a great person to float this theory.

[857] But I have wanted to interview her more than anybody.

[858] Because when you look at the explosion of the last project, okay, first of all, it was racist shit.

[859] She said there's no excuse for it.

[860] I'm not excusing it.

[861] What I'm very fascinated by, here's someone who lightning has struck her like three times.

[862] And either she doesn't, believe people love her and she manifests an outcome where she proves it to herself that they didn't really love her now whether it's they love me they love me but i don't believe it what if i do this what if i sing the national anthem terribly intentionally that'll weed out who really loves me and who doesn't if i do this thing that'll weed it's like tests that an insecure person has for their partner like you've got to pass this test and then i'll really know you love me is it that or is it i don't deserve this thing.

[863] I feel like an imposter.

[864] I don't deserve this and I'm going to somehow subconsciously destroy it.

[865] I think it's probably even more complicated than that in ways that we probably don't even have enough information to judge.

[866] Because I interviewed her from my book.

[867] I did this book of interviews sick in the head.

[868] Yeah.

[869] And I had an amazing talk with her.

[870] The kind of talk I had never had with her, even as someone who's known her a little bit for a very long time, where I just asked her how she felt.

[871] And what happened when you did Roseanne the first time?

[872] Because the interview was before she did it the second time.

[873] Right.

[874] Like, what were you going through?

[875] Yeah.

[876] And she said, you know, I have mental illness.

[877] So you're asking me to go straight from like the kitchen and then the road to managing hundreds of people.

[878] And I can't manage myself.

[879] I'm paraphrasing, by the way.

[880] Sure.

[881] But so she's like, of course I'm going to flip out.

[882] I'm not built to do it.

[883] Yeah.

[884] Yeah.

[885] And I, had a lot of compassion for that.

[886] But I think she has very serious issues.

[887] I, you know, she was telling me that when she grew up, she was raised by very religious Jewish people, many survivors of the Holocaust and that she was deeply traumatized from a very early age by their constant discussion of the Holocaust.

[888] Sure.

[889] Yeah.

[890] From like the moment she could speak, the terror it created.

[891] And then she had generational trauma, right?

[892] Yes.

[893] And she, I mean, she's had all sorts of trauma.

[894] Yes.

[895] And so it's hard to subscribe any of it to, she's trying to blow it up because it's also connected to the Holocaust and Israel and the protection of the Jews and what fears come up rational or irrational.

[896] Oh, is that, do you think her right wingness is Israel driven?

[897] A lot of it seems to be.

[898] But when I first met her, she was very feminist, almost like punk.

[899] Yeah, yeah, that's the person I was introduced to.

[900] And so at some point, her inclination for that to be her highest value became not her highest value.

[901] Right.

[902] And I don't know how much of that is.

[903] I just don't know that if your average listener understands the enigma that was the second TV show.

[904] Like, they got 25 million viewers or something.

[905] I mean, they quintupled what any show has gotten in the last 15 years.

[906] It couldn't be a bigger thing.

[907] And to watch somebody lose that, again, I'm not excusing anything, she said, or justifying it.

[908] I'm just saying, I feel bad for somebody who would get something so precious and then lose it immediately.

[909] Just on some level, I go, oh, that person needed some kind of help.

[910] Absolutely.

[911] I mean, it's related to a complicated person who has a real mental illness and a lot of trauma.

[912] And so I never look at it like, this is a healthy, mean person.

[913] I just don't think it applies to that at all.

[914] And to think about it deeply requires an enormous amount of compassion for her and her journey.

[915] And yes, it's terrible that anyone gets hurt by things that she says.

[916] And a lot of the things that she says are clearly awful and wrong.

[917] But I also just think of her as this woman who's been through so much, who's given so much, who's struggling.

[918] and it's coming out, her struggles coming out in these demented ways.

[919] Yeah, I will say, though, if I imagine myself being black and listening to what I'm saying, I can hear myself going like, oh yeah, when someone's a racist you like, they have a mental health issue, or when a shooter, when a shooter goes and kills a bunch of Muslims, oh, that person had mental health.

[920] So, you know.

[921] They probably do.

[922] I mean, that's just you should just give everybody some benefit of the doubt that there's more going on than face value.

[923] Well, yes.

[924] I mean, that's a whole other question, which is anybody who turns violent is probably struggling with some sort of mental health issue.

[925] You know, to what extent are people purely evil or actually ill and broken in some way that leads to violent choices?

[926] And that's a hard discussion to have.

[927] Yeah.

[928] That's why no one does it.

[929] Yeah.

[930] I mean, in a nutshell.

[931] Yeah, because a lot of those people, there's something really going wrong.

[932] And it's not that simple.

[933] Well, I can admit my own, the own limits of my empathy.

[934] Like, Monica and I watched three white nationalist documentaries in a row on Netflix.

[935] Yeah.

[936] They're really, really great.

[937] I had to admit after the fact, when I watch the guy that they've captured that joined ISIS, I'm like, oh, that guy's just evil and he wants to kill me. And I don't know that that person can be fixed.

[938] All right, that's how I feel honestly.

[939] I'm watching these white nationals and I'm going dude these were the guys in my high school that no one ever talked to one time had zero friends they would have fucking adopted any ideology to have someone to talk to so I'm already finding my way to have compassion for them and clearly it's just because they're white I think it's just like my own primitive monkey brain somehow identifies with them that's the length of my empathy and I can start to see oh this is a tragically lonely person who's now doing this vile, horrendous thing.

[940] But I think the motivations friendship, bizarrely, family.

[941] Connection.

[942] Connection.

[943] Yeah.

[944] And I said to Monica, wow, I really have to work on extending that the guy who joined ISIS is likely the same exact person.

[945] And there's a religious aspect to it.

[946] Yes.

[947] When people think there's a religious reward for violence, you know, and if you've been trained from birth to believe it, I mean, there are some people who pick up that part.

[948] later.

[949] Yes.

[950] It's, it's, you know, we all know from being parents, if I said the same ideas to my kid, wall to wall, the entire ride, they're capable of anything.

[951] Yes.

[952] But speaking of that, actually, because you said that your parents said life isn't fair or that's really the only.

[953] So do you think being told that over and over again, you have that philosophy still?

[954] I think on some level, I'm always fighting against the abyss of that.

[955] that spiritual void that I was given.

[956] They didn't just not take me to temple.

[957] They did not replace it with anything.

[958] Yeah.

[959] You know, there was no Buddhist discussion because the people weren't even talking about Buddhism back in the 70s.

[960] But there wasn't a philosophy.

[961] They were kind people who were nice to everyone in the world.

[962] And so that's why hopefully I'm a nice person, just mirroring how they, interact with the world.

[963] But when you have nothing, I think it spins you out.

[964] So you spend the rest of your life going, what can I fill that with?

[965] Well, right.

[966] In addiction, we say, you know, you have God -shaped hole and you just shovel everything into it.

[967] And it's just not going to plug that hole.

[968] No, I don't believe in God, but I've found other things that I feel like plug the God -shaped hole.

[969] Sure.

[970] Yeah.

[971] And that's where I'm always at.

[972] It is like, Shandling says he saw something on the other side when he had a near -death experience yeah i'm more like that guy like someone tells me a ghost story i'm like good okay at least i'm a ghost yeah uh and i'm desperately looking for something and i'm trying to like let go of even that which is hard yeah so even the the fact that you worked with rosanne you also wrote a couple of tom specials in that same period right and then i mean so many different personality types and characters that you've been able to be fruitful with a a are you a chameleon did you start as a chameleon and then as you become crazy successful, are you less of a chameleon?

[973] I think the journey for me was, I wasn't sure who I was.

[974] I wasn't sure what my voice was, but I was able to mirror other people's voices.

[975] I could sit with Jim Carrey and write sketches for In Living Color with him and work with Ben and figure out what his style was.

[976] And then at some point from working with Gary watching how Gary mined his personality and his experience, I realize, oh, this is, this is what I'm supposed to do, but I think I'm not interesting.

[977] Ah, uh -huh.

[978] I don't think my life has been that interesting, and I don't think my point of view is that interesting, and that was my block for a long time.

[979] What error is this that you're feeling that way?

[980] In the 90s, in the late 90s, and so I'm working with Gary, and I'm seeing how he's doing it.

[981] Uh -huh.

[982] And I'm very impressed, but I just thought, I'm not interesting like Gary.

[983] And then I worked on freaks and geeks with Paul Feig, And Paul Figgas, he's digging deep into all his stuff.

[984] And slowly, I realized, oh, some of my stories apply to these characters.

[985] Right.

[986] So Paul's parents didn't get divorced, but my parents got divorced.

[987] So I could talk to everyone about how I became obsessed with juggling when.

[988] And so I became obsessed with that.

[989] And so we did an episode where Sam Levine's dad's cheating on his mom and he deals with it by becoming obsessed with ventriloquism.

[990] Uh -huh.

[991] And then, you know, we had Martin Starr being a latchkey kid coming home alone and just watching Shandling on Dinah Shore.

[992] And we see what it's like to be lonely and just watching comics on TV.

[993] And I started putting those things on the show.

[994] And Jake Kazan said to me once, you know, Jake, obviously.

[995] And he said, I think that's the best thing you ever did was that scene where Bill watches Gary Shandling alone in his house.

[996] And that was a big moment.

[997] for me like oh maybe it is interesting that led to i mean the 40 -year -old virgin is clearly not my life but i i really related to the shame of of feeling like you're a freak and that no one likes you and no one wants to connect with you right obviously with knocked up and this is 40 i'm beginning to mind more stuff i would say that now you are a brand or you are a point of view from that point on it seems like yes i'm whether things are from my life or not from my life i think i figured out what my sensibility is just the lends you're looking through regardless of the yeah yeah so even in the p davidson movie i'm doing now it's it's in there in some ways and i'm still doing the thing that i did writing for rosan with someone like p davidson i'm sitting with him for years discussing his life how do we make a movie out of this but there's more of me in that exploration It's hard.

[998] I mean, I met Warren Zevon once and we were talking and he said, the best thing you could do in your life is tell people your story.

[999] And I realized, oh yeah, that's what we're trying to do.

[1000] We're trying to figure out how do we tell our story.

[1001] Even if it's fictional, even if it's just inspiration for a different story.

[1002] That's the journey.

[1003] But I could see it being uniquely challenging for you because from a super early age, you start getting obsessed with other people's point of views.

[1004] You can kind of get lost in everyone else's.

[1005] And as you say, you're kind of adopting their thing as you write for them.

[1006] And that's kind of your skill set.

[1007] So it's like when you recognize your skill set is being flexible and being able to take that on, I think it'd be specifically or uniquely hard for you to believe, oh, no, I have my own thing.

[1008] Yes.

[1009] It was very hard.

[1010] It remains.

[1011] I mean, that's one of the reasons why I do stand -up comedy is I have to stay in touch with who I am because it's very easy for me to dismiss that.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] Now, look, I've never seen you do stand -up.

[1014] know you do stand -up because I've heard that you go on the road with people.

[1015] There's a Netflix special.

[1016] Check it out.

[1017] You can huddle up tonight.

[1018] What's it called?

[1019] It's called The Return.

[1020] The Return.

[1021] I imagine if you had your druthers, if you had mapped out your life and you got exactly what you wanted, that you would be Jerry Seinfeld.

[1022] You've almost singularly wanted to be a stand -up, right?

[1023] That was my original goal.

[1024] And there was definitely a moment where I just thought, I just think these guys around me are more interesting people.

[1025] Uh -huh.

[1026] They're just interesting creatures.

[1027] I'm not interesting in this way.

[1028] Right.

[1029] So I'm hanging around in my early 20s with Jim Carrey and Sandler and David Spade and Rob Schneider and Farley.

[1030] Not confidence -building guys to hang around with it.

[1031] Yes, it's, you know, I always say it's like if you started a band and your buddy was you too, it took me a long time to realize that I have something to offer and I don't have to be those guys.

[1032] And now that I'm older, I just have stories to tell.

[1033] tell an experience.

[1034] As a young guy, I wasn't that unique and I didn't have any stories or point of view.

[1035] Well, you hadn't really lived a life yet that maybe.

[1036] But if Roseanne told me her point of view, I could write it all day.

[1037] Yes.

[1038] As soon as I knew what it was.

[1039] Are you able to feel now that you are them?

[1040] Like you've contributed?

[1041] No, not at all.

[1042] Not zero.

[1043] Thank God, because that's the thing that keeps you going in the morning is the lack of self -esteem is such a great motivator.

[1044] I mean, you need both self -esteem and lack of self -esteem.

[1045] So the feeling I have, like lately, I have a real feeling of all the work disappearing into just like a digital black hole.

[1046] You're like, does a kid today who's 16, will he ever see the 40 -year -old virgin?

[1047] Right.

[1048] And so the fact that I feel like it's disappearing like an old Al Jolson movie makes me want to make another new one for this moment.

[1049] Yeah, that's good.

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] Now, okay, really quick on your creative process.

[1052] I for years wrote from a place of you're a lazy piece of shit, you're a waste of skin unless you start typing.

[1053] I've always aspired to working from a place where like, oh, I have some fun to share and I want to sit down.

[1054] I've not found a way to work that way.

[1055] Do you have a thing, well, you just kind of winked at it, which is you wake up going, well, I'm a piece of shit if I don't create this thing, or my self -esteem is such that I need to do this to validate myself.

[1056] Has yours evolved over the year?

[1057] Has it gotten any kinder to yourself?

[1058] or do you aspire for it to be kinder to yourself?

[1059] I'm trying to make it evolve.

[1060] And it probably has evolved a little bit.

[1061] I still, you know, fear sitting down in front of the computer or looking at a legal pad.

[1062] Every time you do, you're going to find out if you're good or not.

[1063] And it's a really bad way to look at it.

[1064] Like, today I find out if I have value.

[1065] And so I'm very fascinated by books about athletes about flow.

[1066] You know, it's like Michael Jordan and he doesn't have to think.

[1067] It's like he just knows what.

[1068] to do.

[1069] And there are creative states of flow where you feel hooked into the creativity of the universe.

[1070] It's like Bob Dylan in like four years.

[1071] He wrote like 200 songs.

[1072] And you have those moments where you feel something outside of yourself coming to you.

[1073] And for me, it is the only connection to the idea of spirituality or God is in the moment when I have an idea.

[1074] Right.

[1075] That seemingly wasn't yours five minutes ago.

[1076] And it can be a dick choke.

[1077] I could just be like, oh my God.

[1078] Like I feel a part of everything the fabric of the universe so when i'm trying to not be insane i try to remind myself like riding comes from a certain state of being open and relaxing and not wanting it and not being in your ego that's why you think of things in the shower and you think of things when you're walking with your friend for me a massage if i get a foot massage if i can't get some part of some story i'll go get the 20 dollar foot massage and invariably i'm sitting there and i forget about the stupid project and then I just blink my eyes and all of a sudden I have this like pretty fleshed out idea and I don't know where the fuck it just pops in.

[1079] You say goodbye to Robert Kraft on the way house?

[1080] Exactly.

[1081] I pay for Robert's guy because I know he's not a good tipper and then I keep it moving.

[1082] But if, yeah, but if, I mean, that's what you're trying to get to as a creative person to that flow.

[1083] You know, it's hard.

[1084] That's why writers rooms are fun on sitcoms because you're just in a big conversation.

[1085] Right.

[1086] And you're not alone going like, come to me idea.

[1087] Come.

[1088] I need it.

[1089] now like it's I think a lot of writing just for any writers out there is just you have to give yourself time where you just start typing you judge nothing and you just don't stop typing anything like I'm sitting here in the room yeah I want to heal myself I'm nothing's coming oh my god why is my cat doing that I had a cat when I was eight what happened to that cat oh yeah that cat got run over by the FedEx guy because mom opened the door and suddenly just stuff like a journey begins right because you don't stop you just let your mind just spew and then if you really did that consistently somewhere in it is either like a great joke for your act or a great story for a movie your eye for talent is insane it's really i mean other than lauren michael's i just don't i can't think of someone else who like somehow could recognize who was brilliant who wasn't where do you think that comes from is it the 10 000 hours of watching other brilliant people and isolating what that x -factor is or what that unique thing is like how are you able to look at Seth and Evan and go, oh, for sure, those guys are going to be able to do this?

[1090] You know, I'm not sure.

[1091] Like, Seth was just this weird guy from Canada.

[1092] Uh -huh.

[1093] I mean, someone just sent me a tape of like 40 kids from Vancouver.

[1094] And then Seth's there reading the scene.

[1095] And I just thought, I don't know what that is, but I want to watch that.

[1096] Uh -huh.

[1097] And then we met Seth, and he read, and he was super funny.

[1098] And we said, you know, every group in high school has got one of those guys.

[1099] So it starts with that.

[1100] like we need like that sarcastic energy like that's an original presence i've not seen on tv but i lived with as a kid right it felt very true yes and then you get to know him and suddenly you realize oh my god this guy has a huge heart oh he's a sweetheart guy and he's so smart and funny and when we can't figure out how to fix the scene his suggestions are generally correct oh when we do improv with him about a scene his instincts are amazing and then when we did undeclared I wanted to work with Seth again I thought we should make him a writer on the show and people are like well he's 18 years old but I think it might be as good or better than everyone on this show and so it reveals itself right in some way it's not instantaneous so Jonah was in 40 year old virgin he has one 90 second scene But in that day, we were like, I think this guy might be a genius.

[1101] Right, right.

[1102] And then you just put him in knocked up.

[1103] And that's generally how it would go.

[1104] Well, I told this story when I had a sister on here.

[1105] One of my great regrets, I have a few career regrets.

[1106] And one of them being is after that 90 -second scene, I happened to have lunch with he and Shawna.

[1107] And I just met him.

[1108] I'd only seen him in that 90 -second scene.

[1109] And he goes, I love your stuff.

[1110] I want you to be in all my movies.

[1111] And I was like, all your movies.

[1112] What are you talking about?

[1113] I should have said, I would love to.

[1114] That's the delusion of youth.

[1115] Yes.

[1116] Which is awesome.

[1117] And I'm glad he got the last laugh when I was the idiot.

[1118] It should have been like, yes, I will hook my car to your train.

[1119] You could have been skateboarding in mid -90s.

[1120] I loved that movie.

[1121] Did you see it?

[1122] Oh, it's fantastic.

[1123] Oh, it's so incredible mid -90s.

[1124] And that's the thing that I'm most excited about with everyone is like, Jonah's writing and directing and Seth and Evan are writing and directing.

[1125] Yeah.

[1126] Well, do you find this?

[1127] Because I found it in a much smaller capacity.

[1128] And the few movies I've directed that I've got to give people chances to be in movies that hadn't been in movies previously, or Monica and Rob and I. I can't internalize my own accomplishments for better or worse, probably for better to keep me motivated.

[1129] But I can internalize their opportunities in a way that is so fulfilling.

[1130] We're not responsible for any of it, but we always love Jonah.

[1131] And as a result, due to some weird sliding doors thing, he's in Wolf of Walsh.

[1132] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1133] So it's, there is like a parental or family feeling.

[1134] It's similar to Maud being on euphoria.

[1135] You have nothing to do with it, but you, you just feel proud.

[1136] But you're a part of the story in a significant way.

[1137] So that was one of my other questions is, is it heartbreaking when people go their own way?

[1138] Yeah, even if it's expected.

[1139] Yeah, it's brutal.

[1140] It's brutal, right?

[1141] Because all the, all the groups drift.

[1142] I've had to make that adjustment.

[1143] As a child of divorce, I project a lot of stuff onto it because I want everyone to stay together.

[1144] Yeah.

[1145] And I also feel like we all have magic together.

[1146] And so there is magic elsewhere, but there's a very special kind of magic when we collaborate.

[1147] So I always want to be in the cycle.

[1148] Like, yeah, maybe we're all not going to do everything together.

[1149] But, you know, one out of five or six, we should do it.

[1150] We should do it because this, you know, I feel that way about Will and Adam.

[1151] I love everything that they both do.

[1152] But you want there to be in the cycle.

[1153] yeah because you know no one else can do that so i i mean i find all of it weird i find the transitory nature of show business hard yes i don't like that i just made the pete davidson movie with all these people so i meet a whole bunch of new people you know yeah and it's like camp right and then camp ends so it's not like one person is the break it's like the whole business is the break yes i miss every person on everything i did you i mean the talks you would have on set of uh i don't know keenan thompson was 16 years old when he did heavyweights me and brill adored him uh -huh we were just like this is the coolest funniest guy uh -huh ever yeah and you know on cable guy you know jack black was in cable guy and owen so it's almost like that version of people you miss I'm so sad that I don't get to sit every day with Pete Holmes and kick around crashing ideas.

[1154] So in a weird way, it's constant grief.

[1155] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1156] It really is.

[1157] And because I do a bunch of things, it's a lot of grief because I'm not sitting around writing love episodes with Paul Russ today.

[1158] And I also loved love, by the way.

[1159] Leslie's an old friend of mine.

[1160] Yeah, we really went down a rabbit hole with love.

[1161] It made us love sick.

[1162] Like, it really was emotionally wonderful.

[1163] Yeah.

[1164] It's so funny.

[1165] And it is like, you know, it's like Buddhism.

[1166] There's life and then there's death.

[1167] And these projects are like that.

[1168] Yeah.

[1169] And these relationships are morphing and changing.

[1170] And I'm kind of a hoarder.

[1171] Like if you come to my house, like I'm not like a crazy hoarder, but I save everything from everything.

[1172] Well, the fact that you still have those tapes was telling to me. Oh, yeah.

[1173] I mean, how could he ever get rid of those?

[1174] Well, I would.

[1175] I'm the kind of person that's just like, uh, I'd rather not see anything.

[1176] I just want to throw everything away.

[1177] It's just a different kind of mentality.

[1178] I mean, I found a tape.

[1179] I was doing the Shandling documentary, and I went, I remember Gary was building a house and he thought it would be a funny HBO special to show the entire process because he's like, you know, I'm going to wind up in lawsuits with all the contractors.

[1180] Let's just start taping it.

[1181] We'll just keep visiting the site.

[1182] So we did it a few times.

[1183] And it was hilarious.

[1184] And then he stopped doing it because he really did get into lawsuits for that.

[1185] And then I had an old tape from 1991 of Roseanne doing stand -up at the improv, like a high -eight tape because I was helping her with her act.

[1186] And then at the end of that tape, there's Gary on the construction site.

[1187] And it's him and in the background, he's just kind of quietly pointing out that no one's working.

[1188] And he's going like, see those guys over there?

[1189] They're not doing anything.

[1190] And it's in the Shandling Dock.

[1191] But my whole personality is to not want things to change.

[1192] Right, right, right.

[1193] So that, I think, is the lesson for me to wish everyone well and to not hold on too tight because you can't.

[1194] It's just not the nature of how things work.

[1195] You're setting yourself up for heartbreak, resentment, all those things.

[1196] Do you find, it doesn't appear so because you've had great titles.

[1197] Of the many reasons I'm jealous of Tarantino, one of them is his fucking ability to title something is so uniquely great.

[1198] Yeah.

[1199] Do you struggle with titles?

[1200] I mean, I've gotten lucky because some things just hit you like, oh, knocked up.

[1201] Sure.

[1202] Oh, I guess that works.

[1203] Or the 40 old virgin, just say what it is.

[1204] Yes, yes, yes.

[1205] You know, this is 40.

[1206] Right.

[1207] You know, but we've made mistakes.

[1208] Like one mistake we made, we had this great movie with Jason Segal called the five -year engagement.

[1209] Uh -huh.

[1210] And it should have been just called the engagement or something.

[1211] But people heard the number five.

[1212] And I'm like this when I hear titles, I think, oh, I got to go through five years of this.

[1213] Right, right, right, or four Christmases.

[1214] Like, as soon as I see the first Christmas, I'm like, oh, there's three more and I get obsessed, OCD about, you know, will they all be the same amount of time?

[1215] I know, I track that too.

[1216] I'm so like that.

[1217] Yeah.

[1218] It bugs me. Or especially it's like seven.

[1219] Hello.

[1220] Oh, Wayne Federman is here.

[1221] Is it over?

[1222] Nice to see you.

[1223] It's not.

[1224] Wayne's got a podcast called The History of.

[1225] stand -up, which is very good.

[1226] Anyway, that was a movie where we thought, I think we messed up that title and, you know, the big sick was one.

[1227] We're like, does anyone want to be sick?

[1228] Right, right.

[1229] And then we're like, we can't top it.

[1230] I mean, I like it.

[1231] There's a lot of that.

[1232] I like it.

[1233] But do you want to avoid sickness?

[1234] Well, can I tell you the time?

[1235] You always go back and through revisionist history, you're a genius, right?

[1236] The Monday morning quarterbacking, right?

[1237] So now you're going, well, five years, and maybe you had those inklings then.

[1238] But I can tell you one word, it's like, I saw, I went to an early screening of Frozen, and I sat between Lasseter and Kristen, and I watched the movie.

[1239] I was like, oh, this is a tremendous movie.

[1240] And I remember thinking, no, Frozen, people don't want to be cold.

[1241] This is a bad title.

[1242] Who wants to be cold?

[1243] And I was, I was adamant about that.

[1244] I had full conviction.

[1245] That was a terrible title.

[1246] And you fought them hard.

[1247] I remember saying to my agent, I don't know about Frozen as a title.

[1248] It's a bad title, but the movie is so good.

[1249] That's true.

[1250] Maybe it would have been $2 billion if it was called something else instead of a measly 1 .2.

[1251] Wayne, actually, when I came to L .A. in 1985 to go to USC, I was 17 years old.

[1252] The first day I went to the Laugh Factory because I had written some articles for Laugh Factory magazine.

[1253] And Wayne was the first person I met.

[1254] That's, you know, that's kind of, I think, how you end up evaluating people I do at least in life.

[1255] When you find out they've got like 11 ,000 burnt bridges, you're like, well, it might be them.

[1256] You know, maybe they're holding the gas can.

[1257] It's David Crosby's fault.

[1258] Yes.

[1259] There's that moment in the David Crosby documentary, which is amazing.

[1260] And he's talking about how, like, everyone's mad at him.

[1261] He's not friends with anyone in Crosby still's never young.

[1262] Everyone's mad at him.

[1263] He says, you know, normally I would say it was them.

[1264] He's like, but because it's everyone, it must be me. He must be the common denominator.

[1265] That's great.

[1266] Well, that brings me one thing I just wanted to, I basically just say thanks for.

[1267] which is we're friends with Scott and Seth.

[1268] And your documentary about the Avid Brothers is so awesome.

[1269] Oh, my gosh.

[1270] Yes.

[1271] We love them.

[1272] It's like, I don't even know what adjectives you use to describe it, but it's like this little fairy tale of a world that they live in and create in and live in.

[1273] There's something 70s about it.

[1274] It's so interesting.

[1275] If anyone wants to see it, it's on HBO streaming, as is the Shandling.

[1276] And it's called May it Last.

[1277] Yeah, it's called May it Last.

[1278] So Rick Rubin said to me, you know, you've used some of their music, but they're making a new record soon.

[1279] Maybe you should, you know, document it somehow.

[1280] So we have no plan at all.

[1281] And I don't know them at all.

[1282] Okay.

[1283] But you were fans of their music?

[1284] I like their music.

[1285] But I wasn't, like, crazed.

[1286] And so Rick Rubin says, I don't know.

[1287] There's something about these guys.

[1288] Life is better when you're around them.

[1289] Wow.

[1290] And I said, okay.

[1291] So my friend Michael Bonfiglio, who I did.

[1292] directed the, uh, directed the Dwight Good and Daryl Strawberry 30 for 30 with, uh, he went down and, and recorded them, uh, playing their new songs for each other.

[1293] Yeah.

[1294] So two brothers, they sit down like, hey, I'm working on this.

[1295] What are you working on?

[1296] And they do it in this little recording studio, which was like in a church.

[1297] And we just did an experimental shoot.

[1298] And it was just magic.

[1299] Yeah.

[1300] And then for two years, just with my own money, I had no, I didn't even know if we would turn it to anything.

[1301] I just kept sending Mike to different places to record them.

[1302] And we realized there's no story here because they're just nice.

[1303] Yeah.

[1304] And then we realized that that's what it was about.

[1305] It is about two brothers who love each other and the creative process.

[1306] And it's not about that they all suddenly go to war.

[1307] And then that became very engaging and dramatic in its own way, how they love and support each other.

[1308] Yeah.

[1309] And they're really great.

[1310] Again, sad, it's over.

[1311] Yeah, of course.

[1312] It's fun to have a reason to follow them around.

[1313] Totally.

[1314] If I didn't have two kids, I've said to Seth, like, still one of my fantasies I've never got to live out, is like, I just want to be on your bus for a few cities.

[1315] I don't need to do anything other than like drink coffee in there with you guys and maybe sleep in a bunk.

[1316] I just really want that experience before I die.

[1317] I think you're going to get it.

[1318] Well, when these kids, I hope they play when they're older because I've got to wait that these kids are out of the house.

[1319] See, my kids are old now.

[1320] My daughter's 16 and she turned 17 in a couple of weeks and Maude is, you know, an adult, I guess.

[1321] And so, Lesie and I are like, I think we could start doing those things.

[1322] It's just happening now.

[1323] Yeah.

[1324] Leslie went to Mexico during the week.

[1325] Oh, my God.

[1326] She just went to Mexico for like five days.

[1327] I'm like, we can do that now.

[1328] Normally you'd have to have a terminal disease to do that, right?

[1329] You're not allowed to just do something for yourself.

[1330] What kind of thoughts did you?

[1331] have because you know there's all these varying levels like i talk about my kids on here a lot which already that came with its own like should i shouldn't i you know you played these games in your head you're you're trying to make both sides of the argument make sure you make the right decision but when they express an interest to be in your movies what is the like what do you you and leslie go through is it immediately like fuck yeah this fun is family or a family business if we made shoes they'd be on the floor selling them what is the process by which you decide whether or not to do it well they didn't show any interest in doing it oh that That helps.

[1332] I just didn't want to do it with other people's kids.

[1333] So I just thought, oh, I've worked with so many, like, kid actors and their parents, and some of them are nice, but some of them are a nightmare.

[1334] And also in movies, when people have kids, it never seems like they're kids.

[1335] Right.

[1336] And that was my main thing.

[1337] It's like, it always looks like a weird stranger.

[1338] Yeah.

[1339] So I just thought it would just seem better.

[1340] And in the beginning, it was literally just strapping them into chairs, having conversations around them and then they don't even realize the cameras are there after five minutes and they just start talking and I had seen this movie by the Safty brothers that Lena Dunham showed me called Daddy Longlegs and it's this guy and he's with like a I think like a six year old the whole movie is like him and this kid and I think in real life it's his kid but they found a way to tell a whole story and clear the kid isn't even acting the whole movie and so he's just real whatever happened they went with it sure and i think that inspired me that you could do do that in uh in movies right uh and then at some point you have to ask i'm like do you want to do this right right and you're in sag now yes you have a savings account that part's cool i'm stealing all this money from me then they tell you if they like it okay and at some point they said that they did like it and then you also have to go are they good sure right jamming my kids and to the movies and then I realize they're not good.

[1341] Right, right, right.

[1342] Luckily, you never know as a parent, but they seem to be.

[1343] Because what's interesting is, I'll take the other side of the argument.

[1344] Like, I remember being on Favreau's show, dinner for five.

[1345] Do you remember that show?

[1346] Yeah, I did that.

[1347] And, um...

[1348] That's where I met Paul Rudd.

[1349] Oh, really?

[1350] On that show.

[1351] Oh, no kidding.

[1352] Well, that was fruitful.

[1353] But Tim Blake Nelson was on.

[1354] Sure.

[1355] And he was saying that he gets really embarrassed when he gets stopped by people in front of his kids.

[1356] Now, I don't like getting stopped because just that's my time with my kids.

[1357] I don't want to interact with anyone but my kids.

[1358] But that wasn't his reason.

[1359] He found it to be very embarrassing that he would be being recognized for this, what is a silly job, basically.

[1360] Like, he's not a doctor or something.

[1361] And I said, that's bonkers.

[1362] It's one of the hardest jobs you could ever find employment in.

[1363] You should really feel proud of the fact that you make a living doing this.

[1364] I think that's incredibly esteemable.

[1365] But then it went into, like, he would not want his kids to act.

[1366] And I at that time took the position of like, well, I've had all the other jobs.

[1367] And I can promise you that this acting one is about as good as a fucking game.

[1368] That's how I always felt.

[1369] I always felt if you can escape and do this.

[1370] If you're not a roof in Detroit in the winter doing rubber roof, you're fucking winning.

[1371] Sure.

[1372] But you do get scared.

[1373] Like, what if they're not good?

[1374] What if they're so needy and insecure that this hurts them in some way?

[1375] Because most people fail.

[1376] Yeah.

[1377] And there's a lot in the business that destroys you if you're not strong.

[1378] Yeah, well, it makes sure it breaks you.

[1379] Yes, for sure.

[1380] So, you know, I try to float above it now.

[1381] little bit and go, well, if you want to.

[1382] But generally, I preach, this business is easier if you also learn how to write direct and produce.

[1383] And you can just keep switching gears.

[1384] If you're not getting an acting job, go sit and write.

[1385] And if you know how to do that, it's a fun career.

[1386] If you're just waiting on someone to give you a gig, it's hellish.

[1387] If you're waiting on Carl's Jr., tell you if you got the commercial.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] If your entire life is in the hands of a marketing department that doesn't understand it, you're...

[1390] Exactly.

[1391] It's very dangerous.

[1392] So that's what I tell them and they seem to be going with it.

[1393] And generally, I just think about Jake Kasden.

[1394] I just go, yeah.

[1395] His dad's Lawrence Kazin.

[1396] Jake's the greatest guy in the world, the most talented guy in the world.

[1397] Somehow it's possible.

[1398] Yeah.

[1399] Did she have fun on euphoria?

[1400] She did.

[1401] She did.

[1402] And you know, she worked on a movie called Assassination Nation with Sam Levinson.

[1403] Oh.

[1404] That shows incredible euphoria, I think.

[1405] I'm on episode three.

[1406] I'll let you know when I finish.

[1407] I'm scared.

[1408] I'm a parent.

[1409] I go slow.

[1410] I go slow.

[1411] It's intense.

[1412] You know what the breakthrough for me was because I have two daughters as well and I was like oh yeah it's scary even as an ex -drug addict who got navigated out of it it's still scary but I had to remember watching um less than zero and I was like I was able at my age then to recognize less than zero was a very heightened world but that the emotional truths were real and that that was the appeal not the suck dick for crack or whatever yeah I think that he you know it's a very strong anti bad behavior message And kids get that.

[1413] It's the same reason why people love Billy Eilish right now.

[1414] I think there are certain artists expressing the, you know, the anxiety and the, you know, the tension of this moment, what it's like to be young in this age.

[1415] Yeah.

[1416] In a very raw way that isn't exactly how we felt, you know, I was more of a fast -size -in -rich -Mont -I.

[1417] Yes.

[1418] The kind of person or diner.

[1419] Yeah, yeah.

[1420] Those were my touchstones.

[1421] Now, Pete Davidson, I've never met him.

[1422] He just has this magical thing where you kind of love him.

[1423] His dad died in 9 -11.

[1424] Yes, his dad was a fireman.

[1425] A fireman in 9 -11.

[1426] Who died on 9 -11.

[1427] And he's a sweetheart guy that's been through more than anyone you know.

[1428] Yeah.

[1429] And it's a very unique experience to be the child of someone that died on 9 -11.

[1430] Absolutely.

[1431] It's not just your grief.

[1432] It's the world's grief.

[1433] And it never ends in a way.

[1434] People are always talking about it.

[1435] Like my mom died.

[1436] So she died 11 years ago.

[1437] But no one talks about it.

[1438] No. It doesn't come up.

[1439] It's just a complicated experience that only a few people understand.

[1440] That when you're directly tied into that national trauma, and then you have your personal family trauma at the same time.

[1441] Yes.

[1442] And so Pete has been very brave to write about it both in his stand -up, hilariously and darkly in a way that people have responded to, and you realize, oh, this is how he survived as he developed this creativity around it.

[1443] I mean, he was an amazing stand -up at 17, 18 years old, which is unheard of.

[1444] Yeah.

[1445] And then he was very brave sitting with me and his partner, Dave Cyrus, crafting a story that isn't a true story, but is inspired by all of his feelings about this and all the ways that he's trying to heal from it.

[1446] And he's definitely one of those people that the whole world is rooting for.

[1447] Yeah.

[1448] I was going to say, are you drawn into the like, God, I want to be in his life to help him in whatever way I can?

[1449] I mean, I think I always have that inclination to collaborate with people who have a story to tell, who have wounds, who are trying to work through something because even my movies, when I'm making movies that are my personal movies, I know I'm making them to work through issues.

[1450] with a lot of the movies I think what I'm doing unconsciously but now I think more consciously is writing what health would look like and a path to get there.

[1451] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1452] Sure.

[1453] So at the end of train wrecks she learns some lessons about herself that changes her but what would have to go wrong for her to be forced to learn those lessons and I think a lot of my movies tend to be developed with that in mind.

[1454] Yeah.

[1455] Well, I don't think we've had a guess on where I read.

[1456] I was started like listing stuff you've done i was like i'm not even going to really do it and even having known you for 15 years and obviously knowing what you did i still would be like oh that's right he directed train wreck oh that's right bridesmaid oh that's right yeah both anchorman's whatever incredible career clearly a genius for being able to help a lot of different people with points of you come to a productive output of it it's it's a very cool thing my doubt you give yourself credit for it but i'll give it to you publicly it's really impressive you're a peach i love you i hope you'll come out is there is there a date i know there's not a title but is june 19th is the unknown title movie well that's a great day show yeah and then you know the it's gary shanling's book if you're interested in in his life and the and the gary goldman hbio special starts airing october 5th okay great and lastly the comedians and cars with shanley it's my favorite show and i can't get the title right but Comedians getting coffee and cars.

[1457] With sugar and coffee.

[1458] No, it's amazing.

[1459] And it's amazing because it is like, there were so many things Gary wanted to say to the world.

[1460] And he found a weird place to do it with his friend.

[1461] Yeah.

[1462] And it does become an odd goodbye.

[1463] There's a sweet, bitter, sweetness to that.

[1464] There's your title, by the way.

[1465] Sweet bitter sweetness for your...

[1466] And speaking of holding on to things, because it was very moved, there's a moment where they're talking about David Brenner dying and Jerry Seinfeldon says you know but don't you ever think about those jokes like what happens to all those jokes and Gary says you know those jokes were just an expression like of his spirit and Jerry's like but the jokes and the jokes and it's like isn't that enough that's the reason you're alive I'm paraphrasing again but it's an amazing exchange but it is about hoarding versus letting go totally yeah totally all right well thank you for what a pleasure thanks for driving and the country to get here.

[1467] There's a pleasure I'll get back to working on your house.

[1468] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate, Monica Padman.

[1469] When I get that feeling, I want factual healing.

[1470] Factual healing.

[1471] All right.

[1472] Makes me feel so fine.

[1473] Helps to relieve my mind.

[1474] Factual healing, baby.

[1475] is good for me Oh my gosh We haven't had a song in a while Something that's good for me Keeps going Well I wanted to read all the lyrics That P -M -M -M -C -C -C -Combs wrote to me Puffy Combs Oh my gosh, it was P -M -C -O -M -B -S On Instagram I think it's p -ditty combs I love P -Ditty You do?

[1476] Tell me why What does it you love about them?

[1477] Well, I like I like his songs.

[1478] I like his making the band show.

[1479] God, I loved that show.

[1480] Oh, I didn't watch it.

[1481] Oh, my God, it was a good show.

[1482] And I tried to learn the dance on my own.

[1483] Oh, you did?

[1484] Yeah.

[1485] And did you succeed?

[1486] Kind of.

[1487] I'd love to see it.

[1488] I don't remember it.

[1489] Oh, okay.

[1490] What about shake your tail feather?

[1491] How's that one go?

[1492] Bend over, let me see you shake your tail feather.

[1493] Bend over a little.

[1494] Do you see me shaking my tail feather?

[1495] I do.

[1496] I see.

[1497] They do.

[1498] So gross because I'm on my side.

[1499] Yeah.

[1500] It's so vulnerable.

[1501] It's so vulnerable.

[1502] It's very prone.

[1503] Yeah.

[1504] So we had Jud Appetal on.

[1505] Judd Epitow.

[1506] Oh, wait, before we talk about Judd.

[1507] Okay.

[1508] So Brett Weinstein emailed me back.

[1509] Okay.

[1510] And he said, do you mean literally false metaphorically true?

[1511] Metaphorically true.

[1512] That's his statement.

[1513] Well, the whole thing is literally false.

[1514] metaphorically true.

[1515] Oh, literally false metaphorically true.

[1516] Huh.

[1517] That seems like a lot of words.

[1518] Yeah.

[1519] I thought he just, yeah, great.

[1520] I don't want to fight with you.

[1521] I remember saying these are metaphorical truths when I was talking to him.

[1522] So I'm just wondering if he's added those words in that he's added those two first words.

[1523] Maybe.

[1524] To the thing that we talked about on the podcast.

[1525] But it's I mean, it's probably just his general thought on it.

[1526] Literally false metaphorically true.

[1527] And maybe when he...

[1528] Oh, literally false comma.

[1529] Yeah.

[1530] Okay, great.

[1531] You said it as one thing.

[1532] Literally false metaphorically true.

[1533] I was like, I don't remember it being four words, but literally false, comma, metaphorically true.

[1534] Yeah.

[1535] Now I'm on board.

[1536] So that is what it was.

[1537] Okay.

[1538] How was your drive out here?

[1539] We're live from the set of ABC's blessess mass. Which has got ordered today for more episodes.

[1540] If you're a fan of the show, there'll be five or six more coming on the back side of that 13.

[1541] Congratulations.

[1542] Thanks.

[1543] Congratulations to the crew and all the great actors that got us in that situation.

[1544] Like you.

[1545] You're one of those.

[1546] I'm a straight man. No. I am.

[1547] I was just talking about it yesterday with one of the directors.

[1548] It is the first time in my, almost the first time in my career where I am the bona fide straight man. Yeah.

[1549] And everyone else gets to be real funny around me. Characterie.

[1550] And just most of the time working for me, I was doing that.

[1551] Yeah, that's true.

[1552] And now I'm like Jason Bateman in Arrested Development.

[1553] Do you have some insecurity about that?

[1554] No, I like it.

[1555] You do.

[1556] Yeah, I like like, generally I always felt like that was on my shoulders in a scene, like to deliver something crazy or funny or the scene wouldn't be crazy or funny.

[1557] Now I'm like, oh, not my problem.

[1558] Yeah.

[1559] This is Ketner is going to do this.

[1560] And then he does it.

[1561] And it's fun to watch.

[1562] Yeah, that's true.

[1563] I get a front row seat and none of it's on my plate.

[1564] Yeah.

[1565] Being the straight man, though, for people who don't know if they're not in comedy, there's generally two characters, a straight man and a character.

[1566] Crazy person.

[1567] Yeah.

[1568] And the straight man is there to sort of bounce off and sort of reflect normalcy.

[1569] The audience.

[1570] Yep.

[1571] And it's actually very hard to do.

[1572] It's very hard to be a straight man and a comedy and still have energy and be an interesting character.

[1573] Right.

[1574] I'm trying to think of a great example of like a comedic straight man whose career was being the straight man. Well, you sort of said it, Bateman.

[1575] Bateman, yeah.

[1576] Dan Aykroyd, I think, for the most part.

[1577] Like he and Belushi, Belushi was kind of crazy and he was more the straight man. Yeah.

[1578] Or spies like us, Chevy Chase was bonkers and he was kind of straight man. Yeah.

[1579] Anyways, I like it.

[1580] Yeah, good.

[1581] Yeah.

[1582] But I can see if I hadn't got to do the other thing, I would be jealous of them.

[1583] Because they're getting all the laughs on set.

[1584] Yeah.

[1585] Okay, Judd.

[1586] So we had Judd on, which is a big fish, big get.

[1587] What a resume.

[1588] Are you kidding me?

[1589] I mean, my goodness.

[1590] I don't know if anyone's ever had a string of comedies like that that are that successful.

[1591] No, it's pretty amazing.

[1592] I also was thinking because, you know, he has this book for Gary Shanling's book.

[1593] Uh -huh.

[1594] And he did a documentary about him.

[1595] Yeah.

[1596] He was his mentor.

[1597] and I was just thinking about that.

[1598] He's keeping him alive.

[1599] Right.

[1600] And that made me sad for him.

[1601] I mean, and, like, I made me happy for him that he's able to do that and still sort of delve into his world.

[1602] But it also made me feel like, oh, he doesn't want to let go of him.

[1603] Right.

[1604] Which made me feel sad.

[1605] For him.

[1606] Yeah.

[1607] It's hard to love people that much.

[1608] Should I be doing that for somebody?

[1609] I guess I haven't had a real close friend in the public eye who doesn't.

[1610] who I can keep alive.

[1611] I'll do it for you.

[1612] You will?

[1613] Okay.

[1614] We'll start working on it.

[1615] It's probably a couple years out.

[1616] Start going through my journal.

[1617] When you die, what do you want to happen with your journals?

[1618] Everyone can read it.

[1619] They can?

[1620] Absolutely.

[1621] I'll be dead.

[1622] But what about people in them?

[1623] What about them?

[1624] That are alive.

[1625] It might affect them.

[1626] In what way?

[1627] Well, I don't know what's in your journal, so I don't know.

[1628] But if you're talking about someone.

[1629] I generally don't write anything.

[1630] bad about anybody.

[1631] You don't?

[1632] My journal's about me. How are you react to stuff.

[1633] What happened?

[1634] What I'm afraid of?

[1635] Yeah.

[1636] You know, it's not like Monica's a bitch.

[1637] Right.

[1638] Rob's a dick.

[1639] Well, you did write in your journal that you hoped I would die.

[1640] In your dream, yeah.

[1641] You thought I did that.

[1642] Yeah.

[1643] Which I never would do, nor have I. Although if you want, because this could be, boy, this is a Sophie's choice.

[1644] Because I have an opportunity to make a dreams can come true.

[1645] Like, I can make your dream come true.

[1646] By just writing in my journal, I hope you die.

[1647] And should you always try to make someone's dreams come true?

[1648] But I would never want to write that in my journal.

[1649] You can see how it's a real catch -22.

[1650] Well, why do you want to make people's nightmares come true?

[1651] Well, you positioned it as a dream.

[1652] Because it was a dream, but you know that I didn't like it.

[1653] Right.

[1654] So it is a nightmare.

[1655] But when you pose it as a dream, then the wording of it sounds like you should make someone's dream come true, right?

[1656] that's an old saying all my dreams came true i think you're confusing literal dreams with dreams i am intentionally yeah for this sake of this being a catch 22 oh okay you see how i'm trying to make it that i see yeah well yeah you could make it come true i'll check when you're dead to see what you decided to do okay do would you let me ask you this if um a show passed and you found he had been keeping a journal for 30 years would you read it yes you would so then that i'm inclined to think my daughters will read it my journal i think they probably which i would want them to read um i think as they get into their 20s that's when i started writing it yeah hopefully they'll recognize i was struggling with the same stuff they might be struggling with because they'll probably think oh we think of our parents as like they don't even have feelings right they're just honky dory yeah plodding along yeah fun out of show was like really wrestling with some kind of stuff that related to you.

[1657] That could be comforting.

[1658] That makes sense, but I don't think they need to find out when you're dead.

[1659] Why don't you just tell them when you're alive?

[1660] Like, I think you can share that.

[1661] Yeah.

[1662] Yeah, I think you can share all that.

[1663] Yeah.

[1664] I don't plan on keeping any of that secret.

[1665] Yeah, because I think, like, it's extra sad if they find it all out after when, like, they can't even talk about it with you or.

[1666] Unless they hire a medium.

[1667] That's true.

[1668] To communicate with me. I hope.

[1669] If I'm dead and I keep getting interrupted by a medium, I'll be frustrated.

[1670] You will?

[1671] What do you think you'll be doing that you'll get frustrated by?

[1672] It's supposed to be Eden, right?

[1673] It's supposed to be heaven.

[1674] It's supposed to be euphoric and blissful and a love you've never experienced.

[1675] So I don't, oh my, hey, Dax, yeah, I'm just talking with your uncle right now.

[1676] He hired me. Yeah.

[1677] He wants to know if you remember where his car keys are.

[1678] You were the last person to see him before you died Fucking figure out your owner's stuff I'm up here now Okay I you know worked hard to get here Well No Monica did you have a favorite part of Nashville Was it fun to see your four friends Yeah my friends came from Georgia They drove we watched the game The big Georgia game They're inordinately attractive Are they?

[1679] I think so I think so, too.

[1680] Yeah, they're really good looking.

[1681] Yeah.

[1682] Last night, we interviewed somebody in the evening.

[1683] We were talking about popularity.

[1684] Yeah.

[1685] And I look at those friends you have.

[1686] They were popular.

[1687] Yeah.

[1688] They were.

[1689] And you're in their group.

[1690] So you were popular.

[1691] There's almost no two ways about it.

[1692] I still think there's differences.

[1693] We all feel unpopular.

[1694] No, no. I don't think I was unpopular.

[1695] I would never say that.

[1696] Okay.

[1697] But I don't think...

[1698] Out of 10, you'd give yourself a 6 of popularity?

[1699] Maybe a 7.

[1700] I think you had to have been an 8 of popularity, just based on a lot of things.

[1701] Well, but nobody wanted to date me. That's a big part of it.

[1702] Popularity in high school.

[1703] But again, this is where you and I argue a lot, which is I'm quite certain a lot of people wanted to date you.

[1704] And I really bet those people sent some signals that you didn't catch.

[1705] Yeah, we have to agree to disagree on that.

[1706] We're going to have to agree to disagree on that.

[1707] But that is how I explain that.

[1708] Christina, one of the girls, she was prom queen.

[1709] Oh, she was.

[1710] Yeah.

[1711] So that's a 10, right?

[1712] If you're a prom queen, that's where we're going to set the bar at 10.

[1713] Okay, well, prom queen was picked by the faculty.

[1714] What?

[1715] That's weird.

[1716] It is weird.

[1717] But she was very popular.

[1718] That's why?

[1719] They shouldn't be able to.

[1720] I know.

[1721] It just means like teachers' pets are going to get picked, right?

[1722] Yeah.

[1723] But I think that's the point is like these are like good kids.

[1724] Okay.

[1725] Which is nice.

[1726] Homecoming court is chosen and queen and king is chosen by student body.

[1727] Oh, okay.

[1728] Okay.

[1729] And I think she was on court.

[1730] Oh, as well.

[1731] Yeah.

[1732] A double whammy.

[1733] Yeah, she was very popular.

[1734] Yeah.

[1735] Now, there was a group of people in my school that were incredibly popular because, like, let's say the girl was just the prettiest girl in school.

[1736] Sure.

[1737] But rarely did that person then have the most sparkly personality where they would be overall.

[1738] So it was literally just their looks had them in that.

[1739] top strad of popularity, but they weren't even that outgoing.

[1740] Like, some people are introverts and super hot.

[1741] That's true.

[1742] And become super pop.

[1743] There was, like, there were two groups.

[1744] One was, was, like, kind of like the party group.

[1745] Mm -hmm.

[1746] That was the most popular, I would say.

[1747] Okay.

[1748] I wasn't in that.

[1749] Although, I was friends with everyone in it.

[1750] Sure.

[1751] But I - These were, were they the athletes as well?

[1752] Some of them were on my cheerleading squad and, yeah, some football players.

[1753] But the guys were football players.

[1754] Yeah.

[1755] They seemed to get a fast pass.

[1756] the football players into popularity.

[1757] They do.

[1758] They do.

[1759] Rob, were they the most popular in your school of football players?

[1760] Yeah, I guess so.

[1761] Rob, what would you give yourself out of 10?

[1762] I was friends with kids not at my school that were all, like, older musicians.

[1763] That's a move.

[1764] So, that was, yeah.

[1765] Now, was that a reaction to, explain how that came to be.

[1766] I was friends with all the, like, jock people, elementary school, junior high.

[1767] Played sports And then high school Kind of was like You blazed your own trail Yeah No was it because though You did not feel like You were being embraced by that group Because now I too Had a satellite group of friends Not in my high school But that was largely a response to me In ninth and tenth grade Feeling like no one really liked me So I was like that's cool I'll go hang out with these gearhead friends I have Probably had a little bit to do with it A little mixed match Yeah Okay little chicken little egg Well look at us all here We're all in the same trailer That's right Dusty Setta, bless this mess in Newhall, California.

[1768] Equifinality.

[1769] Oh, equifanality.

[1770] So many roads leading to one place.

[1771] Yeah, we just learned that word yesterday.

[1772] We like that.

[1773] That word to me is very soothing.

[1774] I like it too.

[1775] Aquafinality.

[1776] It sounds like water.

[1777] I think equifanality.

[1778] What was I saying?

[1779] Aquafinality.

[1780] Yeah.

[1781] Well, you made it watery.

[1782] I think aquafinality should be a thing, too, because all streams will end up in the ocean.

[1783] So they are aquafinality.

[1784] Fine night I don't know You're right Okay Pud Epital Okay yeah Judd So I just felt sad for him That he had Lost someone he loved so much Yeah But I will I will keep your memory alive Although maybe I'll die Hopefully we'll die together That'd be fun Wouldn't that be great Yeah We're like Let's see I would be 102 You're 90 Yeah That's pretty good You're visiting and me and my retirement community.

[1785] Oh, and you're drunk.

[1786] And I'm hammered.

[1787] And even though I've agreed that I can drive a golf car because I'm only staying in the community, we do decide to go off property and we're crossing a pretty busy road.

[1788] And we're in the laugh and we're in the middle of a good laugh and bam!

[1789] Budweiser truck smashes us.

[1790] Oh, boy.

[1791] It turns us into dust.

[1792] That's kind of the dream, right?

[1793] Well, sure.

[1794] Yeah.

[1795] Also, is it a men's only retirement?

[1796] No, no, no, no, no. Oh, well, then I can live there.

[1797] Yeah, yeah, I just think because you're 90, you're still like on your own.

[1798] Oh, I'm on my feet.

[1799] Like maybe living in the city still.

[1800] I'm out in Arizona.

[1801] And a double wide.

[1802] Wow.

[1803] He mentioned that there was a bear on some movie that killed his trainer.

[1804] Uh -oh.

[1805] That was Stephen K. Miller, the trainer, not the bear.

[1806] Yeah, I doubt they would give the bear three names.

[1807] It'd be cool.

[1808] Stephen K. Miller was an American animal trainer Wrangler and stunt double who was killed by a bear while making a promotional video.

[1809] E!

[1810] Not even a movie.

[1811] Yikes.

[1812] Miller had worked as a trainer at Predators in Action, an animal training facility operated by his cousin, Randy Miller.

[1813] Randy Miller is the one who owned fucking...

[1814] Bartha Bear?

[1815] No, he's the one who owned New York Seltzer Water.

[1816] What?

[1817] Lifestyles of the rich and famous.

[1818] The dad started New York Seltzer Water and then he turned the whole company over to his son.

[1819] He's like 24 years old.

[1820] and he's the subject of a lifestyles of which is famous.

[1821] He announces a new flavor by base jumping off the roof of the Mondriant.

[1822] He drag races cars.

[1823] He has pet tigers he's walking through the office and they're almost attacking people.

[1824] That guy then went into animal wrangling.

[1825] That's him.

[1826] So this is one of, this is his fucking cousin.

[1827] The son.

[1828] The son is Randy.

[1829] Yes, Randy has sweet long hair, a fucking, I mean, he is so awesomely 80s in that lifestyle.

[1830] And we're sure it's the same Randy Miller.

[1831] positive because I know he's gone into predator animal wrangling.

[1832] Oh, my God.

[1833] Yeah, the company went belly up, but he...

[1834] Well, probably after this incident.

[1835] But he had accumulated some wild big cats, you know, from that open savannah.

[1836] Oh, my God.

[1837] So he hired his cousin and then his cousin died.

[1838] Oh, man. Ooh, I didn't know that.

[1839] This is a big update.

[1840] Because, okay, so, yeah, Randy Miller that trains wild and exotic animals for film and television appearances.

[1841] At the time of his death, Miller was not working as a trainer, but was attempting to perform a wrestling stunt supervised by Randy.

[1842] Yikes.

[1843] What could be worse than watching a loved one get attacked by a bear?

[1844] And you're in charge.

[1845] Yeah, and you're supposed to be, quote, in charge.

[1846] I'm told you this.

[1847] I'm not afraid of a lot of motorsports stuff.

[1848] Yeah.

[1849] I am terrified of animals.

[1850] They are so unpredictable.

[1851] Yeah.

[1852] Every time you see like animals attack TV show, you know, there'd be like clips of always someone on a talk show with a bear.

[1853] and that bear out of nowhere just goes berserk and attacks or these fucking cats get real.

[1854] A lion or a tiger you can't ever trust they're not going to eat you.

[1855] Never.

[1856] Look at Sigfried and Roy.

[1857] Yeah.

[1858] You couldn't be closer to some tigers than they were.

[1859] And the one got mauled, right?

[1860] I think.

[1861] Severely.

[1862] Yeah, we're really just playing with fire on these movie sets and TV sets.

[1863] It's like juggling handguns.

[1864] I know.

[1865] I don't like it.

[1866] I mean you get good at it, but.

[1867] God, it also just goes to show like actors feel like they just can't say, and you can't because they'll just hire somebody else who'll do it well i'll say what i suffered from is you've grown up watching movies your whole life and in movies people interact with animals and they jump off cliffs and all this so like when i was doing without a paddle yeah i felt like somehow this has been organized in a way that's safe yeah i know and it wasn't until i watched a stunt man get hurt where i was like oh no no no one here's impervious to getting really fucked up i know you're doing this stuff you're doing this stuff i'm going to do a show where i'm just bed -ridden the whole like six seasons oh my goodness so I'm just kind of napping there is it a will -she -won -she get out of the bed like the whole time that's right that's right and a couple times you actually get your feet onto the ground well that's the cliffhanger and then we'll see what happens you're so much thinner than not people I associate with staying in bed for six years like what we would call shut -ins oh sure you don't have the physique of a shut -in so you're going to have to wear probably and I have to say it a fat suit not it's not what I named it, but in show business, you're going to have to wear a fat suit.

[1868] Well, I can break the stereotype.

[1869] Or you could put on the weight.

[1870] Oh, put on the weight.

[1871] Put on the weight.

[1872] Wait, guys, no, you don't have to be larger to be a shut -in.

[1873] You don't have to.

[1874] You can have just agoraphobia, the bed kind.

[1875] Oh, yeah, right.

[1876] Rumophobia?

[1877] Yeah.

[1878] Anyway, I'm going to get on that.

[1879] Okay.

[1880] Okay, so you said Rosanne.

[1881] bar right but the show the new the news show got 25 million viewers quadrupled what any show had gotten in the last 15 years oops I forgot to back check that last part yeah that's not going to be right and I don't think it's right yeah but the first episode of Roseanne delivered at 18 .2 million viewers and a 5 .1 rating among adults 18 to 49 so just to put that in the context.

[1882] Bless This Mess is a hit comedy.

[1883] Yeah.

[1884] It gets like, I think, three and a half million viewers a week.

[1885] Kristen's show is a hit comedy.

[1886] I think it's like 2 .6 million viewers a week.

[1887] Right.

[1888] And this has got 18 on the opening.

[1889] That's great.

[1890] So in that case, it is six times as much as like your other shows.

[1891] Well, that's true.

[1892] But I wonder what the next biggest.

[1893] Well, the next biggest would probably be the, or they're geniuses.

[1894] Big Bang Theory.

[1895] Oh, right.

[1896] Which gets a lot.

[1897] Yeah.

[1898] yeah the series fell from its height okay uh and it concluded with a 10 .3 still insane it's still insane yeah yeah still a humongous hit that's nuts almost impossible to get these days yes i thought it was really interesting since he knows her what his thoughts on her and her mental illness and all of that he thinks not thinks he's like she has mental illness she talks about that and her stand up Yes, and he interviewed her for his book.

[1899] Oh, speaking of that book, Sick in the Head, is fantastic.

[1900] It is?

[1901] It is so good.

[1902] I have it.

[1903] And it's just interviews with all these different comedians, but the interviews are really good and deep and very interesting.

[1904] Yeah.

[1905] It's a good read.

[1906] I think it's cute that he's returned to interviewing so many times because he started as a kid calling these comedians and getting on the phone with them.

[1907] That's true.

[1908] By accident, basically.

[1909] What a cool, full circle.

[1910] Yeah.

[1911] Yeah, he's really manifested some stuff.

[1912] He sure has.

[1913] Okay, if people were confused towards the end, he brought his friend, or his friend came.

[1914] Yeah, I was confused.

[1915] Yeah, I was confused.

[1916] I thought he had something to do with a new project that he was maybe promoting.

[1917] Right.

[1918] But, no, just he had a buddy stop by.

[1919] Yeah, because I think they together were going to go to the next thing.

[1920] Uh -huh.

[1921] So it was like, hey, come in for a bit.

[1922] His name was Wayne.

[1923] He was so nice.

[1924] Very nice person.

[1925] And very funny.

[1926] I think he's a comedian.

[1927] Yeah, good looking, funny, sexy, rich.

[1928] All the boxes.

[1929] the boxes were checked um okay so he talks about the this movie called daddy long legs and it's a dad and his kid and then he said i think maybe that's his real kid but it's not oh it was not the kids are not his real kids but they are brothers there's two kids the two children are siblings okay but bear no relationship to the lead actor right other than friends i think all friends yeah lifetime friends.

[1930] Yeah, I think.

[1931] Well, this is just a thought I had that since he grew up around people who he identified as being so funny and stars, like Adam Sandler, when he was like, oh, I just know this person's going to be the biggest star in the world.

[1932] And I bet that subconsciously did give him some confidence or he just has some magic where he can identify what is actually real.

[1933] There's something special in people and I think he can identify.

[1934] that?

[1935] Oh, I think that's what his genius is, is being able to recognize that Seth and Evan are competent enough to write their own movie, you know, or that all these people, yes, I think that's his definite genius as being able to recognize who's got it.

[1936] Yeah.

[1937] But maybe it started even then, just with his roommate.

[1938] He just identified, like, oh, this person is going to be a massive star.

[1939] And it seems like, well, duh, because Adam Sandler is so good, but he was just a boy in an apartment.

[1940] Oh, right, right.

[1941] And there are so many talented people out here to be able to be like, nope, this one.

[1942] And then it happened.

[1943] Yeah.

[1944] That's crazy.

[1945] It is crazy.

[1946] I bet it would be a confidence builder in that it at least eliminates one of the things you tell yourself, which is like, well, this couldn't happen to me. Right.

[1947] But if your bozo roommate becomes Adam Sandler, you're kind of like, well, fuck, it happened to him.

[1948] Yeah.

[1949] It could happen to me. That's true.

[1950] Yeah.

[1951] Proximity.

[1952] Look at that.

[1953] success.

[1954] Proximity of success.

[1955] That's the message.

[1956] That is a message.

[1957] It's a good message.

[1958] I love you.

[1959] I love you.

[1960] Let's put some air on in here.

[1961] Okay.

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