238 - Lady Suit

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] A one, a two, a three.

[2] What?

[3] That was the best one we've ever done.

[4] Seriously.

[5] Hello.

[6] And welcome.

[7] And welcome.

[8] To my favorite writer.

[9] I was harmonizing it with you.

[10] Oh, okay.

[11] The professional podcast for professional people in the professional world.

[12] Starring Georgia Hardstock.

[13] Yeah.

[14] Man, when I was a kid, I thought I'd be walking around in a fucking lady suit with fucking shoulder pads and a briefcase being like a professional working woman.

[15] That was like my dream.

[16] Did you have white rebuck high tops on to walk to work in?

[17] With my pumps in my bag.

[18] Hell yeah.

[19] Maybe I just watched Working Girl one too many times.

[20] I mean, it's a great film.

[21] It is a great film.

[22] Nine to five.

[23] Again, Sigourney Weaver just hitting threes all through the 80s.

[24] You can't everything she did.

[25] It's three good.

[26] Don't you want a five or ten?

[27] Well, hitting threes.

[28] from basketball.

[29] Oh, got it, got it.

[30] That's why you did the layup movement.

[31] That's right.

[32] I was throwing out from the outside.

[33] Outside lane, I don't actually follow basketball.

[34] I respect it.

[35] Should we start over?

[36] No, but you should introduce me since I introduced you.

[37] Oh, you did?

[38] Oh, that's Karen Kilgara.

[39] I didn't know you did.

[40] Oh, thank you.

[41] The basketball genius.

[42] Huge basketball nerd over here.

[43] I did see, and you did too, James Hardin, who's from the Houston Rockets, remember the guy, he had a beard, and we saw him at the Daily Grill in the bar.

[44] Oh, yeah.

[45] It was like two years ago.

[46] In Burbank?

[47] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[48] In the weirdest place, in the least celebrity.

[49] Yeah, it's next to the Burbank Airport, which is just like, not fancy.

[50] Commuter Central.

[51] And then like at the middle of the day in a fucking daily grill, which is like weird and awkward.

[52] Yeah.

[53] He had a great outfit on though.

[54] Yeah.

[55] I mean, it was cool.

[56] And that's when I, that was one.

[57] I like to do the thing where I'm not a fan of celebrities or stars or athletes or whatever until I see them in real life.

[58] And then I begin to follow their careers.

[59] Then I'm like, well, you came into my life.

[60] Right.

[61] Therefore now I care about yours.

[62] Now I care about you because we're friends because we've seen each other in real life.

[63] I get that.

[64] Yeah.

[65] Yeah, that's, that's tight.

[66] Thank you.

[67] Thanks so much.

[68] What's going on with you?

[69] Let's see.

[70] Well, the family came down to escape, did I already talk about this?

[71] To escape all the smoke in Northern California.

[72] So that was actually nice because I'd real people in my house and, you know, interaction and, like, eye contact and all those things that, like, give you, what either dopamine hits or serotonin.

[73] Yeah.

[74] pumps or whatever yeah yeah dopamine that was nice yeah eye to eye contact there's no there's no substitution for it yeah I mean I was like you do it with dogs but there's you know they're just using you for food they're like wait are you gonna are you about to feed me is that where you're staring at me um and I always love it when my dad comes down because we fight really loud because he's hard of hearing so it always makes it sound like we're really mad at each other but it's just that you're trying to get like a simple point across as loudly as you can.

[75] You know that my dad came over.

[76] So we hung out with you and your family and your dad because your dad loves my husband.

[77] Yes.

[78] Deeply in love.

[79] I saw my dad on Sunday.

[80] And I told him that what we did.

[81] And I was like, because Karen's dad, you know, loves Vince and loves just talking to, you know, a dude.

[82] And my dad goes, well, I like him for other reasons.

[83] Like he got jealous.

[84] I know.

[85] It's like, well, I love Vince, too.

[86] I was like, oh.

[87] Oh, Marty.

[88] Sorry, Marty.

[89] He's a jealous of Jim's relationship with Vince.

[90] I'm not just using Vince for guy stuff.

[91] I like him as a person.

[92] He's my actual son -in -law, so I love him.

[93] Much closer.

[94] Much closer.

[95] Right.

[96] And then my dad pops up from behind a bush and tries to punch Marty in the face.

[97] What?

[98] He's like, talks about sports and stuff.

[99] because my dad can't really do that.

[100] Sorry, dad.

[101] Sorry.

[102] My dad wants a stay sexy mask, by the way.

[103] Oh, he should have one.

[104] One of our stay sexy masks, which, by the way.

[105] My God, this is a good segue, right?

[106] Yeah, it is.

[107] Yeah, you've really nailed this one.

[108] Even I didn't see it coming and I knew it was coming.

[109] It's all true, though.

[110] I'm not making shit up.

[111] So we have masks now, face masks that say stay sexy on them.

[112] And 100 % of the proceeds are going to feeding America.

[113] to help feed hungry people in America and they came out last week we announced it and you guys have already raised 15 ,000 freaking I thought that was a typo when I saw it 15 ,000 dollars for feeding America .org.

[114] Yes.

[115] What amazing.

[116] Beautiful thing.

[117] Thank you guys so much.

[118] Good job.

[119] Good job.

[120] Good job.

[121] So you can still go to the merch store at my favorite murder .com and get yourself one.

[122] And while you're there.

[123] Well, the other announcement we wanted to make is so everyone knows that we have those logo pins that are little enamel pins with our logo on them and we use those.

[124] You can buy them and they go, the money goes toward different charities that we choose.

[125] And this last one, we put up for the Black Emotional and Mental Health Collective.

[126] It's called Beam.

[127] And for this logo pin fundraiser, you guys raised $20 ,000 for Beam.

[128] so amazing yep we sent that check off thank you so much for everybody that supported that one i mean you guys are thank you so much for using your money for such um awesome stuff like this because you're a force you're really you're really doing stuff totally it's very cool and then we also have a new shirt design that is so cool karen like you kind of you were the leader on this design and you love it well yes i love it i love it i love the design of it, but then the message is so timely.

[129] It is.

[130] Like, everyone I tell that I was showing my sister.

[131] She's like, oh, that's good.

[132] Yeah.

[133] I was like, yeah.

[134] So it's, this is terrible.

[135] Keep going.

[136] Yeah.

[137] Which is a thing we say about the murder.

[138] This is terrible.

[139] Keep going.

[140] But it's also about this time we're in.

[141] This is fucking terrible.

[142] But keep going.

[143] And it's just this really cool design.

[144] I love it.

[145] They're up for pre -order now.

[146] So if you want one, go on, um, my favorite murder.

[147] dot com go to the store and uh they'll ship in three weeks yeah well let's uh have you been watching anything lately well i watched any no uh the vow is my oh my god obsession obsession what a great i'm angry that i can't binge it every time it ends i get mad it's so frustrating but it's so incredible that one of the people that it happened to was also a filmmaker and a documentarian.

[148] Totally.

[149] So he, because I was sitting there going, are they doing reenactments?

[150] What is this?

[151] And he had a real time.

[152] All conversation.

[153] Crazy.

[154] If you don't know, we're talking about the vow on HBO and it's about the nexium cult that like that turned into this sex cult and this whole time, this documentary filmmaker, the guy who made what the bleep do we know, which I totally forgot about too.

[155] That was like such sensation was there as they are figuring out it's a cult.

[156] And so it's all documented, his wife, it's so amazing.

[157] And it's cool because when she first starts talking about it, it's like she, you know, this is kind of taking over our life.

[158] And part of like, I think we talked about this last time, but you get it because part of what this whole program is, it starts out as like, if you're a business person that wants to get better results in your business or whatever.

[159] And then, but then it's like, but then you have to free yourself up in these ways and you see how it's such a slow and very like impactful lead in where it's like but you're bettering yourself as a person and you're challenging yourself and you're doing something that no one's ever done before this is radical and of course your family's not interested in it because they're still stuck in their ego and then I get it too where it's like you've spent two years and thousands of dollars in this program and they tell and you're expecting something and then they say well it's going to be another year you're not just going to quit it you're going to you've already invested so much you just keep going and going and suddenly well and also you're not going to quit it because they tell you the reason you want to quit it is because you have these negative impulses that you need to control and you need to stop wanting to be comfortable all the time right the things that they start setting up are these things that are basically making their there's no exit there's no exit because if you exit that is actually you're playing right into the storyline yeah here's how you're a failure and then the sleep deprivation part which is part of a cult where you're like what do they what do they mean you're just running around and it's like no you you need to be a busy functioning person so you only sleep from 11 p .m. to 5a and like you're so you're that's like six hours most people are fine with that but I think it's shorter because there's that one night where it was like the first one night volleyball midnight volleyball anytime he has a conversation with someone they go walking around at 1 30 in the morning and she the wife that leaves first looks it up and looks up what mind control and it's just step after step of exactly how mind control works totally it's just like it it's so fascinating the way he tries to mark when he called i mean these are all spoilers i guess we should have said that way at the beginning i think we're we're known for it they're all it's it's just the fact that you can hear the rationalization on the phone so you actually know how this happens real time why it's so believable why people can't process it because it's like, no, it's this guy, my good friend.

[160] He's not friends with anybody.

[161] He's brilliant.

[162] Right.

[163] And he's this brilliant person who's been able to figure stuff out.

[164] And he's an incredible speaker.

[165] He's an incredible, he's very convincing the leader, the cult leader.

[166] Right.

[167] Although I have to say, if you weren't told multiple times as they seem to be in this group, that he had the highest IQ in the world, I don't know if he's the most compelling speaker I've ever seen.

[168] I don't know if there's a lot of there there right.

[169] A lot of circles.

[170] A lot of circles.

[171] The glaze of like, but he's the smartest person in the world.

[172] People fucking, they love IQ shit.

[173] And then they want those people to like them and think they're smart.

[174] Right.

[175] Because then that must, that's such a validation.

[176] We're just like, yeah, but what if he's lying about being the smartest person in the world?

[177] When he sat down, remember when he's like, oh, I used to be this concert pianist as a child and a savant and all that, he sits down and starts playing like basically a super slowdown version of heart and soul where I was just like I used to play this on the piano when I was bored.

[178] Junior high like first chair level fucking piano and he looks like John Tash and his fucking if he didn't have that hair that beautiful manly mane do you think I don't know it's like something about it he gets away with a lot more he gets away with so much what his volleyball outfit is ludicrous oh my man I don't ever want to see a guy outside of the house in fucking sports shorts nylon sports shorts no he wore his knee pads around like before the game i mean there's some nerd stuff happening absolutely i i am so grateful that there's so much visual there's so much like actual footage videos they make that are like to show people who are thinking about coming in the like joyous running through the field video it's so culty i love it yes and there's so many actor types in there.

[179] There's that actor energy that reminds me of every fucking acting class I've ever taken and hated where I'm like, yeah, I wanted to learn how to act.

[180] I'm not here to like, I can't even explain it.

[181] It's kind of like a cute contest.

[182] It's like, oh my God.

[183] It's join the call, the acting thing where you almost feel like you are you have to join, join us, be one of us.

[184] Yeah.

[185] You can't be a cynical fucking asshole.

[186] No, you can't be like a arms crossed.

[187] I'm not, I'm not sure about this the whole thing is like surrender whatever which is like that's fine to a point but if you're not into like working with groups which I'm fucking not leave me alone yeah you're not gonna you're not gonna like this cult nexium you're not supposed to you're not gonna want to join this cult um oh I have a correction ish correctione from last week so okay so remember I was talking about fight flight fucking freeze freeze or fawn And I was saying how I fawn a lot and I was talking a lot of shit on it because I like to talk shit on myself.

[188] And I'm very, and I, you know, I can't, I can't possibly be nice to myself and gentle.

[189] So this person named Grody Marshmallow wrote and said to me, I want to offer a gentle challenge to the description of the PTSD fawn response in this episode.

[190] Well, fawning can definitely include flattery and disingenuous behavior that can damn.

[191] relationships.

[192] It's a lot more than that.

[193] People who fawn due to PTSD learn to constantly or yeah, learn to consistently put others' needs ahead of their own, often to dangerous effect.

[194] Fawning can look like having sex when you don't want to, and going to extreme lengths to please a rejecting or cruel caregiver in order to secure safety or basic care for getting yourself and your needs entirely because your brain has taught you that the only way to survive is to become what others want you to be.

[195] And there's, um, the person who kind of created the fawn response definition is Peter Walker.

[196] So I thought that was interesting.

[197] No?

[198] Yes, other people do fawning differently.

[199] Yeah.

[200] But like, it's not like you weren't.

[201] I know, I'm not sure what the point is.

[202] I think the point was to give yourself a break that you're that people who use all of these tools are using them because they worked during a time when they needed them.

[203] And a lot of us are still using those tools, even though we don't need them anymore.

[204] And we're adults.

[205] We're in different situations than we were as kids when we, when we utilized those tools.

[206] And I just think a lot of it, and like a lot of my therapy is not utilizing the unnecessary tools anymore.

[207] And so I liked that.

[208] I felt like it was correcting me in a way that was like giving myself a little more kindness that you're not an asshole.

[209] You're not, you know, I'm not being manipulative by telling you your hair looks good.

[210] What I'm doing is, old old old um an old way to make my life and myself feel better and that's okay sure but i think i also i don't think there's anything wrong with you looking at that behavior because you know as the person who received that behavior it was it was it it was the kind of thing where that's i knew that's what you were doing because we were about to have a difficult conversation yeah so yeah if If that analysis makes you not do stuff like that anymore because you get to update yourself and know that you're now a 40 -year -old woman who is completely in charge of her own life, then good.

[211] That's great.

[212] You know what I mean?

[213] Like the analysis is going to, whatever helps you do things less that make you feel bad is the point of all of it.

[214] And the thing my therapist always talks about is how those voices inside of us, the coping mechanism and voices and the critics and the ones that are trying to keep us safe by saying, shut up, sit down, you don't know what you're talking about.

[215] They don't know time has passed.

[216] They have no concept of time.

[217] So when those feelings come up, they don't go, yeah, this is from 1983.

[218] They're like, they, like we, I just talked to her, my therapist, about a thing that was similar where I was about to go do something that was making me really nervous and really stressed and I kept like making these excuses like oh it'll be fine it won't work out and it'll be fine and then she was like the the voice that's telling you that is trying to keep you safe and free from disappointment and you're tired of being disappointed yeah so that's that's that's protective but but what that voice doesn't understand is you're not going you're not leaving your house and going back to 1995 right you're and they don't understand that because time is not a part of the thinking in that.

[219] Right.

[220] And also you're an adult now who can deal with disappointment in, and you understand disappointments a part of life and it's not at the fucking end of the world.

[221] Like it maybe was when you were younger.

[222] Yeah, but those voices aren't aware of the other pieces of you that have grown and learned and changed.

[223] So they just kind of like, it's like, it's like, you know, different ages of you running up to the mic and like taking, taking the spotlight.

[224] And then you are going, oh, I guess this is how it is.

[225] And then you have to train your yourself to have then the modern version of you go, thank you for that warning.

[226] I know that you're trying to be nice and protect me. I'm all good.

[227] This will be new.

[228] This will be different.

[229] Yeah.

[230] This isn't the same.

[231] We don't just keep things aren't always exactly the same pattern over and over.

[232] You're living a brand new life and all these, you know, with all these different combinations.

[233] I just think that like sometimes I think people like to find a hole and go, here's what you're missing.

[234] Yeah.

[235] And I didn't feel like you were.

[236] missing anything in that conversation you know yeah i feel like i was like you going you i felt like being analytical is not the same as being mean to yourself yeah yeah being able to go that didn't make me feel good that's why you it felt like why you wanted to tell me that what why did i do that and it's like yeah because you're a human being we all do weird shit when we feel threatened and when we feel like something might be taken away yeah and like we we will do it until the day we die because that's how people are set up right and everyone does it it's not just you and you know what's really making me think of that is listening to again this is actually happening where everybody thinks we're the ones that have had the horrible thing happen or lived through the like extreme thing that's why i think i'm so obsessed with people telling their stories like on that podcast or on radio rental where i listen to that and go oh whoa i have no idea what like that's so funny because I like listening to it because so they have the you know the whole thing of like big T traumas and little T trauma where it's like big T traumas is going to war it's having a parent get ill it's you know sexual assault it's these events that are horrible and traumatic and of course they are and the little T traumas are the people who say well my life wasn't that bad you know like the little things that you can't point at and be like that's see that's why I'm trauma I have trauma it's the little things And so I think for me, having little tea traumas and not feeling worthy of them, listening to big tea traumas and seeing that a lot of their reactions and a lot of the ways they cope with them are the same fucking way that people with little tea traumas do.

[237] You know, like I don't have a big tea trauma, but I'm fascinated with people who fucking survive big tea traumas.

[238] Absolutely.

[239] And I would say that in our own individual lives, that your tea is your size.

[240] It's not a thing.

[241] It's not a thing to compare to others because, yes, that's true.

[242] There is a solace that we take in all banding together and going, have you been through shit and you feel fucked up about it?

[243] Me too.

[244] And it's not about, you know, it's like whose plane crash is the biggest.

[245] It doesn't, we don't have to do that to ourselves or each other.

[246] We can hear those stories and have that empathy to go, oh, I've been that place where whether it was because I got so many tickets that I knew I was my dad was going to kill me that now that this isn't that's not an example of trauma but I'm trying to think of like when I had problems in life that I was like I'm done this is it or say it when I flunked out of college yeah I fucked up like 17 things in a row I kept pushing it to the side not taking care of it and by the time the really bad thing happened um I was completely responsible for it blamed myself for it and did the thing of and this is the least of most people's worries.

[247] So it's not even a big deal, which I think is very damaging when you're going through shit.

[248] Yeah.

[249] Your shit is your shit.

[250] You can't, it's not less because other people's is more.

[251] Right.

[252] It's what it is.

[253] Yeah.

[254] You know?

[255] Totally.

[256] I guess that was my point.

[257] Not to dismiss, obviously, that person knows what they're talking about and just wanted to give like kindness to you, which is lovely.

[258] Yeah.

[259] But then there's also that thing of like, I don't know, it's good.

[260] I think it's good to be.

[261] like to clean up your, clean up the things you don't like doing, to chase those things and kind of go, yeah, and if I get into that moment again, do I have to go to that place?

[262] Right, right.

[263] And give yourself like a little bit of space to go, no, I don't need to.

[264] No one's going to threaten me. I'm not, there's not a truck rushing toward me. Yeah, or yeah, you're safe now.

[265] I'm safe.

[266] You're safe now.

[267] And you can handle shit.

[268] I think it's so much of therapy is like figuring it out, figuring out how you're safe now.

[269] yeah I think it's fascinating that parts of your brain don't understand time I think that is like the key to so many I mean time is a human construct it's not like our brains were suddenly like 12 a .m. to 12 p .m. is now a day like our brains didn't adapt I mean they adapted but that's not it's still not brain surgeons are like can you shut up they don't know no one knows anyone about the brain that's what I learned when I got epilepsy they're just like sorry unless we do brain surgery we don't don't know what's wrong with you is like thanks thanks because we're worshipping you guys we talk about oh i'm not a brain surgeon you guys don't know anything and to prove it we're going to give stephen brain surgery right now on the podcast stephen take off your skull take off your skull take off your skull take off your skull that's our new segment second hand therapy if it helps you great if you're confused, throw it all away.

[270] That's right.

[271] That's what we do.

[272] Take what you want out of it and swallow the rest.

[273] Wait, so I guess I asked you in that faky conversational way so that I could tell you what I've been watching.

[274] Great.

[275] Because...

[276] That was a long conversation about the vow.

[277] Now you go.

[278] Oh, but, which is to say, God, if we could only watch the entire vow and then talk about it for seven hours, because it is real good TV.

[279] HBO, get with the times.

[280] We want to binge.

[281] But it also makes me go, when I watch those things, I get worried.

[282] Like, I think, whew, it is a miracle I didn't join a cult.

[283] It's a miracle.

[284] Uh -huh.

[285] There's definitely a couple early years, early adult years where Georgia could have just later to fade into a fucking cult.

[286] Those searching kind of like, I'm lost, someone, tell me. And luckily it was like, oh, I'll just like the band this guy likes.

[287] Yeah.

[288] Instead of full on, like, I just signed up for.

[289] The whole thing of taking classes you can't afford.

[290] And then after the classes, like six weeks, then you have to take 10 more classes.

[291] It's like improv.

[292] It's like the cult of improv.

[293] I think we're lucky that we have and had a pretty high level of skepticism, especially in men.

[294] So like, you know, the men who would be the ones who would fucking indoctrinate you, we're just like, get away from me with your fucking goatee or whatever.

[295] never trust a goatee two hoop earrings and a goatee goodbye and a nose ring too you're like what what but then then if we're going to say that then let's thank that inner critic that was so mean to us but was also mean to everybody else thank you thank you for not trusting people you're right it turns out you were right not to trust me or him good job good job 17 year old Karen who thought you knew it all turns out she did it turns out she just did a lot of damage along the way it's like sure you went and locked the front door thank you but on the way you chipped every wall you knocked over every vase she was testing herself you know it's like you test your parents love where you like you still love me now do you still love me now it's like you're doing that to yourself like do you still have a good life now do you still have a good life now yeah it's like are you going to start loving me now how about No. Could you love me now?

[296] Could you forgive me, finally?

[297] I stumbled upon a show, and it was one of those ones where it started because the show I was binging ended, and so then it started, and I was kind of not paying attention.

[298] Yeah.

[299] And it's called Be foreigners.

[300] It's shot in Oslo, where we played.

[301] Oslo?

[302] Oslo, we played, and it is, I'll just tell you this, so there's no spoilers.

[303] It's modern -day Oslo, and there's an event.

[304] one night, all these lights go on in this ocean, and then people from the Stone Age, the Viking era, and the, I guess, early 1800s appear in the ocean.

[305] Karen, you're talking about the new Bill and Ted.

[306] I think you misread the label.

[307] I thought the new Bill and Ted was called Be Foreigners, an adventure in the photo.

[308] Okay, wait, so they, I'm sorry, that was, so they all show up in the ocean.

[309] in the ocean and they get rescued out and then they're like these people were so this one guy's a cop obviously in oslo and he shows up and it's like they rescue these people out of the ocean and they're just for a stone age family that's like screaming and panicking and they don't know where they are and then it cuts to three years later where this event has happened over and over again and all of modern day oslo is filled with either stone age people Vikings or um like turn of the century 1800s people who are just kind of trying to live and adapt.

[310] That's cool.

[311] Fascinating.

[312] It's really good.

[313] And then a Viking woman goes to, she basically shows up and then ends up going to school and becomes a police detective.

[314] So it's the, it's the detective you meet in the beginning that's there for the first person.

[315] And then three years later, his new partner is this, this actress is great.

[316] Is it a cartoon?

[317] It sounds like it should be a cartoon.

[318] It's, I just kept, I keep watching it.

[319] It's really funny.

[320] It's really well written.

[321] There's a scene in the second episode where the Viking woman detective finds her friend who was another female Viking and they get the friend doses her with mushrooms and they walk around the city like tripping out and screaming and they come upon a church and they start they start screaming at what they call white Jesus.

[322] They go, there he is again that white Jesus.

[323] And they start saying like, we're the shields women of Odin and we last.

[324] did longer than you.

[325] They're yelling at, and it's also for HBO Europe.

[326] So it's like an HBO series, but produced over there.

[327] It's great.

[328] It's great.

[329] I love it.

[330] That sounds awesome.

[331] In a similar theme, the show action, or the movie, the documentary Action Park.

[332] It's not at all like that.

[333] I'm dying for you to watch it.

[334] It's this fucking, it's this like, it's a documentary about this like 1980s, home fucking spun New Jersey water park where people just died all and got terribly injured and you guys, especially younger people were always like it was so no one gave a shit about children in the 70s and 80s, please watch Action Park because it just, it's exactly that's exactly what life was.

[335] You went and you might get hurt or maimed because some adult did a thing poorly it's your own fault.

[336] And you were telling me about it the other night and my mind was blown because I've always heard people, friends of mine who grew up in New York and New Jersey, who would tell me about Action Park.

[337] But I assumed it was just a real theme park that had a couple bad rides.

[338] The whole thing was built by a guy who was not qualified, not an engineer.

[339] He wasn't an engineer.

[340] The people who came up with the ideas and built them weren't engineers.

[341] The people who manned the rides were these like stone or 15, 16 year old high school kids, you know, super, super of the era.

[342] It's, It's pretty bad.

[343] I mean, but I shouldn't be laughing because kids died, right?

[344] Did they die?

[345] I think so.

[346] I didn't get to that part yet.

[347] But yes.

[348] Is it a series or a one -off?

[349] It's a series.

[350] I mean, it's a one -off.

[351] Okay.

[352] I think it's on Netflix.

[353] It's great.

[354] Yeah, to watch it.

[355] That's amazing.

[356] It's like, oh, yeah.

[357] You know how I always do like, you know, deaths at Disneyland or death set line country safari?

[358] Like, this is right for that.

[359] I don't know how I never found it, but it's perfect.

[360] Yeah.

[361] So that's, yeah, I couldn't believe it.

[362] Because it kind of made me think of in Big Bear in the summer, they let people, have you ever seen those?

[363] They're like cement, like, it almost is like what you would have at a water park, but they're made, what am I trying to say?

[364] Trails going down.

[365] Oh.

[366] A slide, but it's made of cement.

[367] And you go down sitting on this thing that has a break, but it kind of doesn't work that well.

[368] And that's like a ride in Big Bear that you can do during the summer when there's no snow.

[369] And she's basically just like And so in the winter It's just road rash Waiting to happen It's like It's not a good idea No It's just like hey If you can't do tubing Yeah Because it's summertime Just shut down Yeah That's not It's not a solution I mean it makes sense It's a better solution Than just leave them open Anything else I think we're good to go Should we start it off?

[370] Who's first this week Me?

[371] You are All right Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[372] Absolutely.

[373] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[374] Exactly.

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[387] important note that promo code is all lowercase go to shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today that's shopify .com slash murder goodbye this one kind of ties in to something we were talking about last week and we can talk about or we can file this under another insane story that I had never heard of somehow maybe you have this is the ayahuasca murders no Yes.

[388] Are you on ayahuasca right now?

[389] I just wanted to ask because I know that you're now an ayahuasca.

[390] Yeah.

[391] I actually don't exist.

[392] You're on ayahuasca the whole time.

[393] Yeah.

[394] You're the snake.

[395] Exactly.

[396] And by the way, I don't want to do it anymore.

[397] Everyone messaged me all these different things and I and after like fucking researching this, I think I'm good.

[398] Maybe ketamine.

[399] Let's see.

[400] We'll see where it goes.

[401] But we're still going to throw out a half baked ideas on this podcast.

[402] And I'm still going to do psychedelic drugs.

[403] Yeah.

[404] So I would like to think on Instagram, Katie underscore Daisy 419 is the one who told me about this.

[405] Insane story.

[406] And I got a lot of great info from there's a great article in Men's Journal by Matthew Bremner.

[407] There's a Guardian article by Dan Collins, CBC News article by Scott Anderson, a vice article by Alison Tierney.

[408] And then the Netflix show Unwell does a whole episode about ayahuasca and they lightly touch on this.

[409] God, I love that show.

[410] It's so good.

[411] It's really, if you haven't seen the Netflix series, did we already talk about it?

[412] Unwell.

[413] I hadn't seen it.

[414] I haven't seen it before, so I don't know.

[415] Oh, okay.

[416] Yeah, I started it because someone was like, you have to watch the one on the Essential Oil's pyramid scheme.

[417] I had no idea because I left Facebook in like 2011.

[418] Oh, my God.

[419] So I had no idea this kind of these hijinks that were happening.

[420] Dude.

[421] And it's such a bummer.

[422] The first season of the podcast, The Dream, is all about pyramid schemes, and it is mind -blowing.

[423] So, and then there's this, like, anarchist Canadian podcast called From Embers, and they interview fucking...

[424] Anarchist Canadians?

[425] Yeah.

[426] It's rad.

[427] Support your local anarchist, everyone.

[428] Sweet.

[429] But just picture because Canadians are so polite.

[430] Yeah.

[431] It's like, they're just like, excuse me, I disagree.

[432] That's right.

[433] I'm an anarchist.

[434] I'm lighting this fireplace on fire now.

[435] Now everyone cozy up while I disagree virulently with you.

[436] And they interview this author named Kevin Tucker who wrote this book about it and I'll get to that later.

[437] So let's get in here.

[438] Wait, did you listen to the anarchist podcast?

[439] Uh -huh.

[440] How was it?

[441] It's good.

[442] From Embers.

[443] Check it out.

[444] It's cool.

[445] It's like, I love anarchists.

[446] They're like, it's like the same with Satanists.

[447] It's like just fucking, you're doing something different and you're challenging the status quo.

[448] Yes.

[449] And whether or not I believe wholeheartedly in your message, I don't fucking care.

[450] It's awesome that you're actually trying, you know?

[451] I feel like if there was ever a time where anarchists must feel really good about the decisions they've made and their kind of like thought processes, it's 2020 where it's like, I told you.

[452] They told you.

[453] They deserve a big, I told you so for sure.

[454] They really do.

[455] High five.

[456] You were right about the government.

[457] You were right about the military death.

[458] Capitalism.

[459] All of it.

[460] Everything.

[461] It's happening.

[462] So about an hour flight from Lima, Peru, and to the northeast of the Andes Mountains is the regional capital of Pukalpa.

[463] It's a bustling.

[464] Sounds good.

[465] Huh?

[466] Yeah, right?

[467] I'm going to try my best to get these pronunciations, right?

[468] It's a bustling city with almost a quarter million residents, and it sits on the Ukalai River in the middle of the rainforest.

[469] The area is home to a number of indigenous peoples who have lived in the rainforest and thrive there for centuries and have a deep spiritual.

[470] knowledge of plants and herbal remedies that the rainforest holds.

[471] And they view the rainforest as this living thing deserving of respect.

[472] So, ayahuasca is an example of this.

[473] It's a psychoactive brew made from the leaf of the chakaruna, and that contains the psychedelic substance DMT.

[474] So this is obviously a very basic description of it if you want to learn more about it.

[475] There's a lot of smart people talking about it.

[476] I am not one of them.

[477] while this ingredient, so this ingredient is highly psychedelic.

[478] This is so interesting.

[479] But it gets rapidly broken down by the enzymes in our liver and gastrointestinal tract.

[480] So even if we take it, humans, nothing happens, even though it is psychedelic.

[481] So it wouldn't cause any psychedelic reactions, but fucking ancient Amazonian tribes without modern science, we're able to figure out that when it's combined with a totally different plant, they were able to figure this out.

[482] it's combined with something with M .A .O. inhibitors, in this case, the stalks of the ayahuasca vine, it shuts off those enzymes and allows the DMT to enter the system.

[483] And these two plants, they form a powerful psychedelic brew that affects the central nervous system, leading to an altered state of consciousness that can include hallucinations, out -of -body experiences, and euphoria.

[484] I mean, it doesn't surprise me that they figured this out because they're also the ones that made, you know, like Machu Picchu, where the stones are so close together, you can't slide a credit card in between them.

[485] Right.

[486] So these people had, I think we're getting dumber for sure.

[487] Yeah.

[488] There's a very good chance.

[489] Those people were like, if you like an IQ, if you like a nice high Keith Renary IQ, yeah.

[490] I bet you back then they were way fucking smarter than we are now.

[491] Right.

[492] And even today.

[493] And it's, you know, the colonial fucking, the colonialism of it was that the fucking Europeans came over and were like, you're not using this incredible rainforest for anything.

[494] So we're going to remove the whole thing and use it for rubber plants and our bullshit, not understanding the deep connection to these plants that these people had for centuries.

[495] And actually, there's a really good book.

[496] Okay, so it said that ayahuasca can help treat addiction and depression, post -traumatic stress, and other mental disorders.

[497] But there's also studies that show it can exacerbate pre -existing mental illness, such as bipolar, especially if it's mixed with some Western medicines.

[498] And I got a lot of messages from people that were like, if you're on SSRIs, you should not take ayahuasca because it'll just fuck you up.

[499] Yeah.

[500] Good to know.

[501] Yeah.

[502] The brew is used for spiritual and religious purposes by ancient Amazonian tribes, but since at least the 1960s, tourists have been coming from North America and Europe to participate in the traditional shaman -led ayahuasca ceremonies.

[503] And it takes years and years to become a shaman and so much study.

[504] It requires patience and a deep knowledge of plants and herbal remedies.

[505] It's often passed down through a family.

[506] And the role of the shaman in the ayahuasca ceremony is imperative.

[507] And ayahuasca rituals were declared part of Peru's national heritage in 2008, which I think is interesting.

[508] And throughout the ceremony, the shaman or Corrondero recites these beautiful healing chants.

[509] It's these like high, high -pitched songs and chants that are just, you know, really, they're mind -blowing.

[510] They're gorgeous.

[511] And it's said that through those chants called the, those chants are called the Icaro.

[512] And through those, they can channel medicinal spirits.

[513] So the drug trip can last three to four hours and participants lie on mats in the dark and they fall into like a dreamlike state.

[514] And the whole time, you know, the shaman is there with the singing the chance and there's like this tobacco smoke that's blown throughout the room and they help people because they're vomiting and stuff like we talked about.

[515] And people who have taken ayahuasca say the visions can be intense and life altering calling up past traumas buried deep in the subconscious.

[516] So over the past decade or so, hundreds of ayahuasca retreats have popped up, promising to cure, you know, all kinds of things while providing this also a mind -expanding experience.

[517] And many are run by North American and European expats who come to Peru, wanting to open their own little retreats.

[518] And the most profitable retreats are in Equitos, Peru.

[519] it's which is the largest jungle city and it brings in nearly six million dollars annually whoa it's just so many people are looking for an answer and for healing and for something to actually work for them you know totally yeah the human experience is tough and you hope that their answers out there and yeah maybe there are and they charge guests as much as $2 ,700 for a week's stay so supporters of the drug claim that the ayahuasca boom has helped revive tribal communities and brought much needed income to poor indigenous communities.

[520] But many of people in these communities see these ayahuasca tourists, as they're known, as just another wave of colonialists exploiting the rainforest and the indigenous people who live there for their gain.

[521] And they argue that their use of ayahuasca is cultural appropriation and profiteering.

[522] So one such ayahuasca tourist was a 37 -year -old man from Vancouver Island, Canada, named Sebastian Woodroof.

[523] So, Sebastian, okay, first of all, fucking, he looks straight up like he could be a contestant on The Bachelor.

[524] Like, that's what he looks like.

[525] Oh, wow.

[526] He's got the, you know, chisel jaw, five o 'clock shadow, dark eyes, just total Bachelor contestant.

[527] Okay.

[528] And he's a bit of an aimless, free spirit.

[529] He's not interested in conventional life and the normal rat race shit, like consumerism.

[530] and materialism.

[531] Would you call him a Canadian anarchist?

[532] Could it be?

[533] One could possibly call him a Canadian anarch.

[534] What if it turns out all Canadians are anarchists and we just haven't been paying attention?

[535] And they're like, don't come over here.

[536] So, like, that's be really nice.

[537] So they think that we're not as.

[538] Exactly.

[539] So it seems like, it seems to me like he was a little lost in life, kind of a drifter.

[540] You know, they're like, I don't want to, I don't want to have a. conventional job and a conventional life, but I'm also not really sure what to do with my life.

[541] I don't really have much of a purpose, it seems like.

[542] But he does love there.

[543] Yeah, right.

[544] He does love nature.

[545] He likes climbing mountains, barefoot and getting lost in the woods and that sort of thing.

[546] He drifts between jobs.

[547] He does construction, tree planting, sea urchin diving.

[548] Sounds awesome.

[549] Yeah.

[550] And the guys on the workboat who work with him call him sea bass.

[551] because he was distant and always wrapped up in his own world, which I didn't know Seabass were like that.

[552] Seabass are the narcissists of the sea.

[553] You know how Seabass are.

[554] You know, it's me, me with those seabass every time you catch him.

[555] So he had a son in his early 30s, but the relationship with the kid's mom didn't work out, but they stayed friends.

[556] And Sebastian does have a big heart, it seems, and would give you the shirt off his back.

[557] Everyone says, you know, everyone's friend.

[558] He teaches his, he still.

[559] close with his son.

[560] He teaches his son how to swim in the valley rivers, which by the way, let's move to Vancouver Island.

[561] Oh, yeah.

[562] It's gorgeous up there.

[563] And he teaches his son how to forage for mushrooms in the forest, you know, that sort of thing.

[564] Yeah.

[565] So he's like a, he's a nature guy.

[566] He doesn't want a conventional life because he actually is really of, he's of nature and he's like a, he's that type of.

[567] He's like an RIA guy.

[568] This doesn't, I don't mean this in a negative way.

[569] I just think it's a really easy way to describe someone that you will understand.

[570] And a hundred percent burning man guy.

[571] You know what I mean?

[572] So in 2013, Sebastian's family stages an intervention for a relative struggling with alcoholism.

[573] And that experience changes him.

[574] So he begins to think deeply about addiction and suffering and how the family unit is disrupted.

[575] And alcoholism and addictions are just are just a symptom of that.

[576] And so how healing needs to happen through addiction.

[577] in the family unit just to get over addiction.

[578] I'm not explaining that well.

[579] But he discovers ayahuasca when his brother -in -law tries some in a ceremony in British Columbia.

[580] And he learns that people who take ayahuasca have surreal visions and vomit violently.

[581] But the effect can be therapeutic and help treat severe depression along with other mental health issues like addiction.

[582] And he has this awakening that this is his purpose in life is to be a drug.

[583] drug addiction counselor and to use, um, you know, medicine, natural medicine like ayahuasca to help people with addictions.

[584] Okay.

[585] And, um, he decides this is his path.

[586] And, um, he wants to help break people from their addictions.

[587] So in late 2013, he launches a crowdfunding campaign, which is, it says that in all the articles, but it's fucking indigo go go.

[588] Remember that one?

[589] Oh, yeah.

[590] Yeah.

[591] Does that not exist anymore?

[592] I don't know.

[593] Oh.

[594] Um, he wants to raise money.

[595] for his career change and the fucking video is on YouTube you can watch it which is him casually talking about you know this his theory on addiction and what he wants to do to change help change things he says he wants to go to Peru so he can study plant medicine and learn more about the healing properties of ayahuasca and his campaign goal is to raise $10 ,000 which which would include $6 ,800 for the healing center he plans on opening I don't know if it's there in Canada that he wants to open.

[596] It seems like in Canada.

[597] And then $2 ,000 for travel and $600 for a Spanish translator.

[598] But he only ends up raising $2 ,000.

[599] But either way, in September of 2014, he's not deterred.

[600] He travels to the Peruvian jungle city of Equitos.

[601] And it's the world's largest city that is not connected by a road.

[602] So you can't, the only way to get to the city is by plane or by taking a three.

[603] or four -day riverboat trip.

[604] Whoa.

[605] Which I think is part of the experiences that you're so secluded and in the middle of this gorgeous setting.

[606] So he wants to go there to study under local shamans.

[607] On Facebook, he posts that he wants to, quote, fix his mind.

[608] And while there, he meets Guillermo Arvalo, who is an ayahuascan shaman with more than 40 years experience, and he agrees to work with Sebastian.

[609] And over the next three years, Sebastian makes several trips.

[610] to Peru and continues to take ayahuasca and ceremonies in his hometown as well.

[611] I think it's illegal in Canada and the U .S. but there's secret ceremony.

[612] Or not secret, but there's like, they're private.

[613] Yeah, private.

[614] Yeah.

[615] So his friends and family say that he starts becoming distant and erratic.

[616] And in Facebook posts in 2016 and 2017, he says he's feeling low and lonely.

[617] And some people think maybe he's, yeah, it's because of a recent breakup he had.

[618] But others think that his issue, is from his quest to become a healer.

[619] A friend close to him later tells reporters that he is essentially a good person but he had a temper and he could be volatile and obsessive.

[620] And he claims the ayahuasca changed his friend, changed Sebastian.

[621] He starts dieting constantly, which is a requirement for taking ayahuasca.

[622] You can't have any salt or sugar or bad.

[623] It's like part of it.

[624] He loses a lot of weight.

[625] And when his father tells him to seek professional help, Sebastian just withdrawals further.

[626] In September 2017, he contacts the owners of a fishing company he used to work for and asks for a loan of several thousand dollars saying that his wallet and passport had been stolen, but it's definitely like a weird, a weird request.

[627] And two weeks before Christmas in 2017, he heads back to Lima, Peru, and almost immediately starts running into issues.

[628] He reports that his passport stolen.

[629] again.

[630] He's involved in a collision while driving a rental car, and he eventually finds a taxi driver who's able to take him to the colony of Victoria Gracia to meet with Guillermo Arivalo's grandmother, who's one of the most respected and renowned shamans in the Peruvian Amazon.

[631] So 81 -year -old Olivia Aravalo Lamos is known as Ayo Shan, which is grandmother.

[632] she lives in the jungle hamlet of Victoria Gracia so think you know wooden shacks dirt roads and then the the name Ioshan is a term of affection and respect for this woman who knows hundreds and hundreds like five 600 herbal remedies and is one of the last links to the dying tribal culture she's a defender of the cultural and environmental rights of her people she's just this incredible woman.

[633] She's part of the Shippeebo, Connie Bo people, which is an indigenous people along the Yucayali River, who are Peru's second largest indigenous Amazon tribe with over 35 ,000 members, and they're renowned for their healer -led rituals that utilize ayahuasca.

[634] One of the villagers says that Olivia had the power to calm storms and strong winds.

[635] And if you look at her photo, she's just this.

[636] beautiful classic grandmotherly type with this wise kind face and a smile her eyes are you know bright and beautiful she's got the bright jewelry on warm this warm presence even through a picture you know and i would imagine that if you're in an ayahuasca ceremony led by this woman you would just feel at peace well yeah she's if she's studied that much stuff clearly it's yeah you know She possesses tons of knowledge and she knows what she's talking about.

[637] Exactly.

[638] Olivia's work as a healer is legendary, both within the Shippewa, Connie Bow Nation and internationally.

[639] She's attended to dozens of ayahuasca tourists to travel for more than 15 hours to cure themselves with her, specifically.

[640] And so when Sebastian finally meets Olivia, after having come to Peru for a couple years, to try to understand.

[641] and ayahuasca and the medical properties it has, he asks her if she can cure him and through him, cure his family back home from whatever he believes is their, you know, deep generational trauma.

[642] And she says she can if he has faith.

[643] And so Becky Lanares, who's the mayor of Victoria Gracia, says that Sebastian Woodrofe would come by, and he would insist that Olivia, Arivalo would take ayahuasca with him but she refused to sometimes the healers would take it as well and like so they could experience it with you but she hadn't taken it in years so she just was like that's not part of what I do she's probably also like yeah I'm I'm the one that calls the shots right right and so I think it seems like things devolved from there it seems like in the up until this point, Sebastian Woodruff, as my overdramatic English teacher in high school would say was descending into madness at this point, you know?

[644] And everything, every, his actions are becoming more and more erratic.

[645] And it seems so he develops a kind of obsession with the Arvalo family and becomes increasingly aggressive with the locals in that community.

[646] According to multiple accounts, he turns up in the village one night.

[647] during a healing ceremony, wanting to speak to Arivalo's son Julian.

[648] He's reportedly carrying a club.

[649] He's turned away.

[650] He tries to sneak back in and hits a man guarding the ceremony, allegedly.

[651] And some villagers chase after him and they take him to the police.

[652] And actually, Lanars later says that the community took Sebastian to the police on three separate occasions.

[653] And, of course, the local police have no record of this, but locals say it's because they didn't care if a white man is harassing natives, but if it had been the other way around, they would have given a shit.

[654] You know what I mean?

[655] Yeah.

[656] So when Sebastian Woodrow fails to check in over Christmas and New Year's, his family and friends in British Columbia are worried.

[657] They are trying to, like, track him down in Peru.

[658] And eventually, he responds to them and says, I'm alive.

[659] So he leaves Peru in early January 2018 with his relationship with the Arivalo family strained.

[660] And a number of rumors are circulating that maybe Sebastian had given Julian Aravalo money for ayahuasca ceremonies that he never received or he'd been ripped off after giving Julian thousands of Peruvian, you know, dollars to buy land for a new retreat.

[661] But it's also like he was asking for loans from people.

[662] He didn't have money.

[663] So that seems a little far -fetched.

[664] Maybe he, you know, had these perceived injustices in his head.

[665] Right.

[666] That couldn't be, couldn't be righted because they weren't.

[667] true, you know, they were the figment of his imagination.

[668] Yeah, if he went down there on borrowed money, then, yeah, it doesn't seem, well, who knows?

[669] Yeah.

[670] So the rumors are never confirmed, but prosecutors of the Yucayali provenance say that Julian allegedly owed Sebastian about $4 ,000, but we don't know if this is true or not.

[671] So Sebastian goes back to Canada, he lives in an RV, starts looking for a new job.

[672] He seems like he feels a little bit broken and dishearted.

[673] He posts on Facebook about how he feels like shit.

[674] He says he's basically looking for a life on Facebook.

[675] And on Facebook in February 2018 says, I miss my family and friends and feel like shit.

[676] I hope I'm not sick.

[677] And in March, he writes a post about heading back to Peru to do some soul searching and fix his mind.

[678] And his family and friends notice that he gets more and more closed off with each visit to Peru.

[679] They try to talk about a going.

[680] He fucking won't listen.

[681] And Woodrow, and his first teacher, Guillermo, Arivalo, says Sebastian reached out to him so they could meet up that Guillermo was out of town.

[682] And he says that Sebastian told him that he's bipolar and needs help.

[683] So it does seem like maybe he had some undiagnosed issues or maybe they were exacerbated by the ayahuasca.

[684] And he's losing touch with reality.

[685] So 13 days after arriving back in Peru, the now 41.

[686] year old Sebastian writes I'm feeling better day by day in Peru so thankful and he starts behaving more and more erratically and on March 30th he goes to a police station in Pukalpa and tells the officer that he's looking to buy a gun just randomly walks into the police station at the police station yeah I mean it's not good no that's not good but he tells the officer that he's going into the jungle and wants protection from animals and the officer actually agrees to sell him his nine millimeter pistol.

[687] Oh, no. Yeah.

[688] Which later they say is irregular but not illegal because he files all the paperwork and stuff even though he didn't have a gun license.

[689] His next Facebook post says, not enjoying life, having a rough go.

[690] Please send me prayers.

[691] So, okay, ready for this?

[692] On the day of April 19th, 2018, a teacher in the village school of Victoria Grasia, here's three gunshots, ring.

[693] out.

[694] And he tells the children in the school to stay put, runs out to see what happened.

[695] And there he finds Olivia Arrivalo laying on the ground outside of her hut, having been shot twice in the chest.

[696] Oh, God.

[697] Yeah.

[698] It's horrific.

[699] It's horrible.

[700] She cries out, they've killed me. They've killed me. And her daughter, Virginia, cradles her as she dies.

[701] Horrible.

[702] It's so horrible.

[703] someone has out to get the police and it takes a while for them to arrive from the nearby city and when they do arrive they leave Olivia Aravalo's body out in the dirt for hours as they investigate as her family and the grieving villagers stand around in shock.

[704] They find bullet cartridges a couple yards from the body and villagers tell the authorities that the killer is someone they know a tourist from Canada they call the gringo.

[705] They tell authorities his name, Sebastian Woodruff, and that they had taken him to the police station on three separate occasions.

[706] And this time, they say he showed up on a motorcycle waving a gun, looking for Olivia's son, Julian.

[707] And he had shot in the air once.

[708] But when Olivia came out, instead, he shot her.

[709] But he's nowhere to be found.

[710] So soon after the shooting, there's a one.

[711] Wanted poster made, it circulates online with Sebastian's photo.

[712] The message reads, this man is the man who killed our teacher, Olivia Aravalo.

[713] And two days go by with no sign of Sebastian until a local media outlet receives a disturbing video.

[714] Oh, no. And the grainy footage, which I highly recommend you don't fucking look up, even a screen grab is troubling.

[715] It's upsetting.

[716] Uh -huh.

[717] In the grainy footage, several male villagers are beating up a white man, identified as Sebastian, and he's pleading, he's beaten up, he's bloody, and while onlookers stand by, his attackers drag him around in the dirt, and then one man takes a seatbelt and uses it to tie a noose around Sebastian's neck, and they drag him through the fucking streets as he's strangled.

[718] and the violent video goes viral and becomes international news.

[719] Oh, God.

[720] No one needs that.

[721] No one needs that.

[722] That's horrible.

[723] So investigators search Woodruff's rented room in the town.

[724] And among his things, they find sleeping pills and two other prescription drugs from Canada.

[725] One of those prescriptions is an antipsychotic drug used to treat schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

[726] And the other is clonopin.

[727] Clonopin?

[728] Klanazapam.

[729] And another one is an anti -anxiety medication.

[730] Mm -hmm.

[731] Then authorities receive a tip about the whereabouts of Sebastian Woodruff.

[732] When they go back to Victoria Gracia, they find him buried in a shallow grave, 700 yards from the village.

[733] His body had been wrapped in a blue sheet, and he's covered in bruises, and his clothes are coated in dirt and dried blood.

[734] And they also find the 9 -millimeter pistol that he had bought in a dismantled motorcycle.

[735] So back in Canada, Sebastian Woodruff's family, when they hear about this, are like, that is not the person we knew he would never kill someone.

[736] They're adamant about it.

[737] And like, there's some rumors that, like, maybe it was the poachers and the rainforest that killed Olivia and all these stories.

[738] But once investigators find gunshot residue on the sleeves and hand of Sebastian's sweatshirt and forensics match, the empty cartridges found near Olivia are of all.

[739] his body with the gun they and there's also eyewitness accounts you know that it was him it's concluded that he is indeed the killer uh and as for sebastian's killers police in uh pukalpa are still looking for the four men in connection with the lynching um one of them was the mayor of that area at the time and they're currently at large reportedly hiding in the jungle So meanwhile in Canada, the local MP, Carlos Tabino, post a tweet that calls the villagers savages and blames the death on local shamans who, quote, turn ayahuasca into a business with foreigners.

[740] Uh -uh.

[741] That's not a good idea.

[742] Like it's their fucking fault that someone came to their village.

[743] What that's, and especially like, it's just insult to injury of like he killed whatever the context, he killed a holy person he killed a leader and a innocent like a shaman and a giver and a teacher like that's she didn't provoke this attack you know she didn't invite this into her life he he's the aggressor he later apologizes but the the current Mary Lanaris tells reporters that the whole affair is racist and she knows that the journalist covering the case and all the journalists descend on the town are only there because of white man died.

[744] The killing of indigenous people on the other hand is ignored every day.

[745] Like in December 2016, indigenous Amazonian healer Rosa Andrade, who was 67, was murdered by someone outside the community.

[746] That crime remains unsolved.

[747] And the killing of environmental advocate Edwin Chota in 2014 as well happened.

[748] But, you know, there's no press coverage.

[749] Right.

[750] A week after Sebastian's death, Canada also issues an advisory warning travelers to exercise, quote, a high degree of caution throughout Peru and to avoid non -essential travel completely due to terrorist in criminal activity.

[751] the double murder also cast a harsh spotlight on the unregulated world of ayahuasca tourism and some condemn the tribe for taking justice into its own hands some blames sebastian outright and some even assert that sebastian wasn't the murderer in the first place of olivia which i think is far -fetched yeah current mayor of victoria gracia becki lenara says that the village never wanted the violence that sebastian brought there usually a very tranquil community, but in this moment, with the death of the village grandmother and last linked to traditional ways, grief took over and they carried out their own justice, is their side of it.

[752] Nellie Vasquez, Olivia's granddaughter, says that the murder has made her more suspicious of outsiders, even if Sebastian was an anomaly.

[753] Before he came, she says they all lived a peaceful life and didn't bother anyone, and now she feels haunted by the gringo.

[754] And to Despite the media attention, the killings received, ayahuasca tourism has not decreased at all.

[755] And that is the murder of Olivia Arrivalo, aka the ayahuasca murders.

[756] Wow.

[757] If you want to read more, the book I was talking about earlier, Kevin Tucker's book, The Cull of Personality, Iowaska colonialism and the death of a healer.

[758] It basically talks about how the event is linked to colonialism and exploitation of an, indigenous peoples.

[759] It's a really interesting read.

[760] It's such a tragedy.

[761] It's a tragedy in every direction.

[762] But that that, that idea that she had all this kind of ancient knowledge and that, like, that that can only be passed down.

[763] The fact that she met such a violent end, this peaceful, spiritual, you know, knowledgeable person met such a violent end from a person who was suffering from his own mental issues is and the whole goal is like to go down there and to try to be healed and to be to say can you please help me I know that you heal people you know and that's that was that was the whole relationship and then that's that the way it turns out is that's a nightmare God that's yeah I've never heard of that one 2018 yeah it just happened yeah it's very it's also very good to think about in that way of like just accessing people's culture.

[764] Exactly.

[765] That way.

[766] You're going into their culture.

[767] You're going into their lives and you're expecting to be, you know, expecting to continue to be treated the way you are in your culture and not respecting, you know, not respecting another culture, essentially.

[768] And maybe also he wasn't respecting the issues he actually had that he made up the way it was going to be solved.

[769] Right.

[770] And then when that didn't happen, he just kept kind of going back the same source, which is like if you have, you know, maybe that mental illness and whatever else was going on with him needed to get treated a different way.

[771] Yeah.

[772] Definitely.

[773] Definitely.

[774] Wow.

[775] That's heavy.

[776] Okay.

[777] So the story I'm going to do this week has an equal amount of pronunciation challenges because it's also international.

[778] I'm going to do the story of the beast of Jevoudon.

[779] Okay.

[780] So here's what happened.

[781] There's a website that I love.

[782] love to read called Dangerous Minds.

[783] I've been reading it for years.

[784] I don't know if you've ever gone on to it, but it's a bunch of super cool writers.

[785] And it's mostly about music.

[786] But then it goes off into these kind of like fascinating, um, cultural kind of mondo.

[787] Have you ever seen this?

[788] Have you ever seen this video?

[789] Have you ever seen this?

[790] Whatever.

[791] Sometimes they'll just have a really good one time on there.

[792] My favorite thing, I think they had the like 1981, um, Christmas like employees.

[793] thank you reel for some news station in like Connecticut so it just was the camera going around and it would be like the guy in the the guy that was in like the in the editing band waving Merry Christmas oh my God like their name underneath like stuff like that on there it's just like yeah people with it's it's a bunch of people with good taste writing about things that you would find interesting love it so so their contributor someone named Cherrybaum is the person who wrote this article that I first found.

[794] So I sent it to Jay and I'm like, I have to do this next week.

[795] Yeah.

[796] But other sources we used are Smithsonian Magazine .com.

[797] There's a website called How About That