Ellen DeGeneres

[0] Hello, welcome to the armchair expert.

[1] I'm your host, Zach Braff.

[2] Today, I'm speaking with a good friend of mine, Ellen DeGeneres.

[3] You've probably never heard of her.

[4] She's mostly unknown.

[5] I mean, she does have a daytime show that's pretty popular.

[6] She's had many sitcoms.

[7] In fact, she is such a powerhouse.

[8] I think she even has a game show that's very popular.

[9] So it's hard to get a few minutes with this woman.

[10] And she was gracious enough to give us some of her time.

[11] This is a shorter episode than you're used to because of her channel.

[12] challenging schedule and limited window of opportunity.

[13] So you might notice I'm going a little quick through here.

[14] I'm kind of trying to take you from soup to nuts in an accelerated way.

[15] And you'll just have to bear with that because she is so worth it.

[16] Ellen DeGeneres.

[17] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[18] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[19] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[20] Because I have you for such a short period, I'm going to jump right.

[21] Jump in.

[22] Okay.

[23] I'm going to just tell you that I very much was interested in stand -up when I was younger.

[24] And I used to watch every single stand -up on, like, Comedy Central, wherever they showed it back then.

[25] Right.

[26] And I really, really liked you as a comedian when I was younger.

[27] And the thing that I think is defined you, you could differ in the sense.

[28] opinion is your embrace of silence and your commitment to your pacing was very, very unique.

[29] Yeah.

[30] And Seinfeld was on Stern the other day and he was talking about the comedians he's most drawn to him, has the most amount of respect for.

[31] And it's the ones that can embrace that scary period where you're just waiting.

[32] And how can you do that?

[33] Why were you so confident?

[34] Did that evolve or did you start?

[35] Was that your brand of stand up right out of the gates?

[36] No, not at all.

[37] No. My brand was really bad, corny puns and like really silly, really silly things.

[38] Like knock duck jokes or?

[39] No, like I would, I would just like bring out different fabric.

[40] I would hold up like velvet and I would just show the audience just quietly.

[41] I would just show people fabric and then I'd pick up something else and I would show them.

[42] And then I mean, I did that for a while and I'd say I was just trying out some new.

[43] material.

[44] And I would do like, I would, I used to pass out my autograph because I would notice that big celebrities, you had to wait in line.

[45] And so I wanted to be thoughtful ahead of time.

[46] So I passed out my autograph and, and people would just leave them on the tables, you know, when they left.

[47] And I just did a lot of, a lot of prop stuff too.

[48] Did you like Andy Kaufman or so?

[49] Was there anyone that you were kind of family?

[50] Yeah, I never saw him and I but I heard about his stuff but um no you know Bob newhart was a big influence of mine and Woody Allen and um Steve Martin and no I think that as I got a little more confident a little better and had material I was happy with the silence the biggest silences I had were the phone call to God that was the phone call to God was waiting on for the other empty side of the conversation which was really dangerous to do at a club Porsche showed a clip of that at your birthday party right was that the clip that was shown in the little video package?

[51] Phone call to God?

[52] Yeah.

[53] Did you do that on Carson?

[54] Yeah, that was my first appearance.

[55] Right.

[56] Yeah, I think so.

[57] But it was like, it's, when you do phone call to God, like it is literally you're just waiting for people to scream and fill in that, whatever the other side of the conversation is.

[58] But that was my fear when I started doing the talk show is that I wouldn't be able to have, because you can't have too many silences on television.

[59] Yeah.

[60] It's different.

[61] Yeah.

[62] And I thought, I'm going to ruin my.

[63] entire kind of, that's my rhythm is just having pauses and I can't do that on the show.

[64] But you still do.

[65] You have this still bizarre confidence in silence, which is just very rare and unique.

[66] Yeah.

[67] I love it.

[68] When you did, I do want to ask you, when you were on Carson, and for people who don't know, the big thing with Carson was if he really, really liked you, right, he invited you over to the couch.

[69] So you go into that performance knowing that he's going to call me over to the couch or not.

[70] And I'll know whether I sucked or did great.

[71] Right.

[72] What is that experience like?

[73] Well, I've told this story before, but I'll condense it a little bit.

[74] My girlfriend was killed in a car accident when I was like 20 years old.

[75] And I wasn't doing comedy.

[76] I think I was probably waitressing someplace at the time.

[77] I was living with her.

[78] And when she was killed, I couldn't afford to live where we were living together.

[79] And so I moved into this tiny little basement apartment that was invested.

[80] Is this in New Orleans?

[81] Yeah.

[82] Okay.

[83] And I was, so I moved into this.

[84] basement apartment that I was sleeping on a mattress on the floor and it was infested with fleas.

[85] And I was just thinking, and I used to write all the time.

[86] I wrote poetry and songs and stuff.

[87] And I thought, why is this beautiful 21 year old girl just gone and fleas are here?

[88] And I just thought it would be amazing if we could just pick up the phone and call up God and ask questions and actually get an answer.

[89] And so I started writing and I just thought, you know, it rings a long time because it's a big place.

[90] I'm put on hold right away.

[91] And it just unfolded.

[92] I just wrote the entire thing.

[93] And when I finished, I read it and I thought, oh, my God, that's hilarious.

[94] I'm going to do this on Johnny Carson.

[95] I'm going to be the first woman in the history of the show to be called over to sit down.

[96] You thought that.

[97] Yeah.

[98] And I had never done stand -up.

[99] Oh, you hadn't even done stand -up.

[100] But it came to you like I've heard hit songs be described, like where the writer just gets kind of the whole song.

[101] nowhere.

[102] It's not like they pined over it for a month.

[103] I just wrote.

[104] It just came out of you.

[105] And it came out of this pen that was moving on the page.

[106] Prior to that, did you deal with, what order are you in your family?

[107] Are you a middle child?

[108] No, just me and my brother.

[109] And you're older or younger?

[110] Younger.

[111] Okay.

[112] So were you lightning the mood in your house with comedy?

[113] He left when my parents divorced.

[114] It was just me and my mother.

[115] Oh, okay.

[116] That's a bizarre split.

[117] That's unconventional.

[118] Yeah.

[119] He went on the road.

[120] He was a musician.

[121] So he just left.

[122] Oh, okay.

[123] He was old enough to leave.

[124] Not really.

[125] He was like 15.

[126] That's not old.

[127] No. We don't advise that.

[128] But he left.

[129] Okay.

[130] He's gone.

[131] It's just you and mom.

[132] It's just me and my life.

[133] Did you feel like you were lightning the load with her?

[134] Did you try to cheer her up?

[135] Yeah, that was sort of where it started.

[136] Where it started.

[137] Yeah.

[138] This is how it happens.

[139] Yeah.

[140] Yeah.

[141] I was a middle child in case you were curious.

[142] Yeah.

[143] You know, you weren't.

[144] Yeah.

[145] We'll say it for your show.

[146] Does that, does that mean something being the middle child?

[147] It does because generally, there's a baby in the mix.

[148] So the baby's fucking nuts and they're stressing mom out, right?

[149] And then the older kids getting into other shit.

[150] In my scenario, the age gaps were big.

[151] So it was a teenage boy and a baby.

[152] And both of them drove my mom crazy.

[153] And so my role was, don't ask for a thing.

[154] Nothing.

[155] I could be on fire.

[156] I wouldn't ask her for water.

[157] And try to lighten the mood about this chaos in her life.

[158] I think that's where it started.

[159] Yeah.

[160] In dyslexia, that in there too.

[161] Yeah.

[162] Yeah.

[163] So yours started with mom.

[164] Yeah.

[165] Okay.

[166] I totally hijacked your story.

[167] So you wrote this thing and you actually thought, I'm going to start doing stand -up, and I'm going to end up on Carson.

[168] He's going to invite me to the couch.

[169] But you somehow knew people got invited to the couch, so you followed comedy already.

[170] Oh, yeah.

[171] I mean, I was a huge fan of stand -up and, you know, yeah.

[172] You liked it.

[173] Yeah.

[174] And my brother at that time, I think he was already on Saturday Night Live.

[175] He created Mr. Bill.

[176] So he was Mr. Hans.

[177] You're kidding me. Yeah.

[178] I didn't know that.

[179] Yeah.

[180] Another thing I loved when I was younger.

[181] Yeah.

[182] So he was Mr. Hans and he was on Saturday Night Life.

[183] I think that, I don't know if he had started that then or, but he was, he was the talented one.

[184] He was a musician and he was funny and he was creative and I was just kind of around, around, doing nothing.

[185] Do you think him having a measure of success said, well, this is possible.

[186] I live in a world where this is possible.

[187] I could leave New Orleans and things could happen.

[188] No. No. Okay.

[189] I didn't think that.

[190] Well, yeah, you told me the other night that you thought you were likely to die before a sixth grade was out, right?

[191] Yeah.

[192] Yeah.

[193] I didn't think I was going to live to be an adult.

[194] Right.

[195] Yeah.

[196] And here we are.

[197] Yeah.

[198] Yeah.

[199] So you wrote that and then did you immediately start performing that?

[200] No. No. I don't know what happened.

[201] I think there was no comedy club in New Orleans at the time.

[202] I don't know.

[203] I don't know the sequence of what happened.

[204] But then I started doing stand up like, I don't, coffee houses and, you know, people asked me. I didn't go searching for it.

[205] I didn't go where.

[206] How can I get on stage?

[207] And then I slowly had a, you know, I was an emcee at a club that opened up out of nowhere.

[208] And I started working on material there.

[209] And then I started touring.

[210] You would introduce people that were coming up?

[211] Yeah, and do like five minutes.

[212] And then it was 10 minutes.

[213] And then I built up to where I could go out on the road and do like as an opener, like 15 minutes.

[214] Yeah.

[215] So, but I, you know, it took a while.

[216] And it was slow because there was no club, like I said.

[217] So it was just a few months of just me. performing where I could.

[218] And how do you end up on Carson?

[219] I was living in San Francisco and I won.

[220] I actually didn't win Sinbad won.

[221] I lost by like a tenth of a point.

[222] There was a big, huge...

[223] You probably didn't have the right outfit.

[224] He helped me shop, by the way.

[225] Oh, he did?

[226] He loves clothes, right?

[227] He likes big baggy balloon pants.

[228] Parachute material.

[229] Yes, we were really good friends.

[230] He won this contest that is the San Francisco.

[231] So comedy, it's a big deal.

[232] And I came in second and people from NBC saw me and I really should have won.

[233] Like I was doing really, really well and he won by like a, he's such a crowd pleaser.

[234] Sure, yeah.

[235] So anyway.

[236] He was a humongous personality.

[237] And I was still kind of not confident.

[238] And anyway, I got to, I ended up in New Orleans because a lot of people saw me and said, you should move to, you should do a sitcom.

[239] And so I moved to L .A. And I was still doing stand up at the improv in different places.

[240] And so the guy that booked the Tonight Show saw me at the improv and booked me. Were you scared?

[241] Yeah, of course.

[242] But you had done that routine at that point a thousand times.

[243] Yes, but, and you can't say, because there's one of the lines in there, like, you know, the reason I'm calling is there are certain things on this earth.

[244] I mean, Jesus Christ.

[245] Not that.

[246] We're still talking about that.

[247] But you can't say Jesus Christ on television.

[248] Right.

[249] So I had to remember to, you know, there are certain things on this earth that, you know, I don't like, you know, no, not Charo.

[250] And, you know, like, you know, you don't even know who Charo is.

[251] It was a singer.

[252] Yeah.

[253] Yeah, it was a dated.

[254] South American singer?

[255] Yeah, I do.

[256] Kind of Latin of like a. Some kind of.

[257] Cucci, coochie.

[258] Yes.

[259] It was an old, I did it in the 80s.

[260] Anyway, so yeah, I was really nervous.

[261] And then because, and every time you can imagine, Roseanne was on Tonight Show and she killed.

[262] And I was like, oh, no, no. And he didn't call her over.

[263] And, you know, Carol Leaf was on Paula.

[264] Poundstone was on, everybody I would watch, I was just like, you know, because I really had in my head.

[265] So he had really never called over a woman.

[266] I was, and still, when he retired, I was the only woman.

[267] He called over on the first appearance.

[268] It was like five men and me. Really?

[269] So when I did it, and I knew I was doing really, really well, but I didn't look over at him.

[270] I looked over at Doc Severnson and Ed McMahon.

[271] I looked over.

[272] And then finally I looked over and he was just kind of like, you know, signaling me to come over.

[273] And he had been doing that for a while, but I didn't look at him.

[274] because I was so, if you look at that appearance, I was like, my voice was really high.

[275] Oh, when you go sit on the couch, I was, I just wanted to come out and snuggle you.

[276] You're so little.

[277] You're so little in that moment.

[278] Yeah.

[279] I don't know if this is the same for you, but for me, it was Letterman.

[280] I loved Letterman so much.

[281] And then the first time I did Letterman, I had to keep reminding myself like, don't just be staring at him.

[282] Like, your to ear smile.

[283] Yeah.

[284] This is real.

[285] You're really on the show.

[286] Do you feel that way about Carson?

[287] Yeah, of course.

[288] Yeah.

[289] Yeah, he was, he was Letterman before.

[290] I mean, Letterman felt the same way about Carson.

[291] I mean, Carson was the, you know, pinnacle of as a comedian.

[292] And then, of course, it became Letterman.

[293] But Johnny Carson was the guy and he could change your career overnight.

[294] Yeah, it's crazy to hear the stories about people going on there.

[295] Because at that time, what did he?

[296] He had 20 million viewers or something insane that doesn't exist now, right?

[297] One and three people are watching it.

[298] So literally overnight.

[299] There were no, you know, there weren't the amount of late night shows.

[300] You couldn't watch cops at 1135.

[301] You couldn't watch.

[302] And I think it was, it all went off the air at midnight or something.

[303] Like, there wasn't anything other than Carson.

[304] There was not another late night.

[305] There weren't it?

[306] Wouldn't that be great to be in show business where you just knew they're going to have to watch me. Yeah.

[307] For better or worse.

[308] That's the only thing that was on.

[309] Like, it's changed so much.

[310] It's crazy to think about that there was no competition.

[311] Yeah.

[312] It's really kind of a testament to anyone who's, succeeding currently that it's crazy you could niche out something that's successful um so and did overnight did you get a sitcom is that what happened after oh god no no no for the sake of our time could you say over the next morning you went straight to the lot instead of recording your sitcom i didn't get i i got uh everybody else was getting their own sitcoms and i uh got a line on a show uh i think the first show I think I had hello.

[313] Okay.

[314] But somehow I made it very funny.

[315] Uh -huh.

[316] And it was the people Neil and Carol Marlins and they had created the Wonder Years and growing pains.

[317] And so they did this show and I was not the lead.

[318] I was just and my brother was like, why are you taking that?

[319] Like, you know, literally Drew Carey has his own show and, you know, Tim Allen and everybody and other people that I can't remember that don't even have anything right now.

[320] Yeah.

[321] They had their own shows.

[322] And I just, I just thought they're great people.

[323] They're smart.

[324] And maybe they'll see something in me and develop something for me. And sure enough, that was who developed my sitcom.

[325] Oh, really?

[326] But did the appearance at least get you a huge bump in how many people would come see you when you toured?

[327] Yeah.

[328] So now, I would imagine after that, like, you're making pretty good money at that point, yeah?

[329] I was making like $5 ,000 a week.

[330] That's pretty great, though, right?

[331] When you're...

[332] Sure.

[333] I mean, that was a lot.

[334] Yeah.

[335] that was a lot for me. I mean, it was a whole lot.

[336] That's a tricky thing about money.

[337] It just keeps changing.

[338] Yeah.

[339] There's never the amount that you, whatever you think it has.

[340] But then I started doing, you know, theaters and, you know, like larger venues and it started becoming $5 ,000 for one night, you know?

[341] And then it was, but then I, then I stopped doing clubs all together and just did theaters.

[342] And so yeah, then it was.

[343] And then every time I was on, I thought I was going to walk around the next day after I did, because he calls me over.

[344] So I'm like a big star now, right?

[345] So the next.

[346] next day I was in San Diego because I was playing the improv, I was just looking around like waiting for people to run up to me and like, no one recognized me. Now, I was like, how, there's so many people watch this show.

[347] How do people not, you know, and everyone watched it.

[348] And, you know, it takes a lot of appearances for people to recognize you, but I assumed I was going to be mobbed the next day.

[349] Also, show businesses is just the perfect occupation for anyone like myself who has swings of total self -loathing and then total grandeur.

[350] So it's like, oh, my, my God, I'm gonna, I'll barely be able to walk out of my house for a morning.

[351] And then you're immediately back to, oh, no, that's right.

[352] I'm a piece of shit.

[353] I remember.

[354] Well, I didn't think I was a piece of shit, but I just, I don't go that low.

[355] Good for you.

[356] I went, I went.

[357] Yeah.

[358] That's why I had to self -medicate.

[359] But when you, when you got your show, when you eventually started doing your sitcom, was it what you wanted it to be?

[360] Yeah, I thought it was really funny.

[361] I thought it was, I got to do physical comedy.

[362] It was very different when we first started it.

[363] But yeah, it was a lot of, because I was a big fan of Lucille Ball, so I kind of incorporated a lot of physical comedy into it.

[364] And yeah.

[365] And you enjoyed going to work and doing that.

[366] Oh, it was great.

[367] I couldn't wait to stop stand up because I had been doing it.

[368] You know, it's hard.

[369] I think for anyone to tour and be in a hotel room, much less a woman.

[370] Like I was by myself.

[371] It's not like I had friends.

[372] I could afford to put up with me or like, you know, and I wasn't flying private.

[373] I was flying, you know, commercial all the time and changing planes.

[374] And I hate flying.

[375] I get anxiety when I fly.

[376] So I couldn't wait to stop touring.

[377] Yeah.

[378] And there's ways people deal with that.

[379] I think the male comedians just go out in town and try to get laid.

[380] That becomes how you not feel lonely.

[381] You did a bit of that?

[382] No. I'm kidding.

[383] But yeah, that seems to be like the male response to that is like, I feel lonely and awkward in this hotel room.

[384] I'll at least go out to a bar.

[385] You have an appell.

[386] You have some kind of medicine you can pursue.

[387] And when you're staying in a condo, which sometimes happen with these two strangers, these two males.

[388] So if I'm the headliner or the middle, I'm with the opener.

[389] You know, like I was.

[390] with two guys and we're all so I'd see them bring home you know random folks yeah it was it was gross it was like you know you were scared to sleep in that bed and who was there before and you know yeah what's in the rug that kind of thing yeah sure anytime you're living with dudes it's it's touch and go even if you love that guy it's it's hard we're not the best creatures to cohabitate with it may have influenced my decision well well yeah absolutely because you had had boyfriends I've heard you say that right you had yeah yeah yeah but i was gay when i started doing stand -up i was uh was because my girlfriend had been killed in the car accident and i was already seeing women but uh yeah i had boyfriends all all the way through the end of high school i i didn't realize and i think you were largely spared when we get grossest which is as we get older i was just describing earlier like the the the throat clearing and all the things i do that like my grandpa did and my dad did i now do in front of christin right and i don't even hear myself and occasionally i'll go oh jennifer i've been clearing my throat for like two minutes and I'll look at her and I'll say, God bless you that you can stand next to me at the sink.

[391] Yeah.

[392] Yeah, we just get worse and worse and worse.

[393] That's a shame.

[394] Yeah, you made the right.

[395] The fork of the road you chose correctly.

[396] I made the right decision.

[397] I don't really know it as well as I should, but your show ended and it ended why?

[398] Because I came out.

[399] Okay.

[400] And then the network said, okay, well, that's a different show or now that your public persona is such.

[401] This is a long, long story.

[402] But, but they, really didn't want me to come out.

[403] Just so you know, I don't even want the juicy details.

[404] I mostly want to know how you dealt with the heartbreak of that whole situation.

[405] That's what I'm most interested in.

[406] So I'm not trying to get any juicy details of who was a motherfucker at NBC.

[407] No, no, no. I know.

[408] But it's like they didn't want me to come out.

[409] I wanted to come out.

[410] They kept saying, you know, I said it's my life and I want to come out.

[411] I want the character to come out.

[412] It's the time.

[413] And they, and I said, I'm going to lose the career.

[414] Like you can just put another show on.

[415] It's my show to lose.

[416] So even though it wasn't my show, it was, but they, they finally let me come out.

[417] And then they didn't really, and it was a huge success the night of.

[418] It was huge.

[419] It was celebrated.

[420] It was, you know, 45 million people that watched.

[421] And then they just stopped promoting it because everybody was scared.

[422] ABC, Disney didn't want to be, because their sponsors were giving them a hard time.

[423] We were losing sponsors.

[424] So they were just acting like, we're just letting it lied.

[425] We're not going to touch it.

[426] So I got no more advertising.

[427] I got no more promotion.

[428] I got, so it just, you know, so they canceled it.

[429] Yeah.

[430] So, and during that time, because there was so much talk about it, everyone was just sick of it.

[431] And even though I had only done the cover of time magazine, a prime time special with Diane Sawyer and Oprah, those are the only three places I talked.

[432] People were reporting on reports and reports and reports.

[433] And even Elton John said, shut up already.

[434] We know you're gay, be funny.

[435] And I'd never met him.

[436] And I thought, what kind of support is that from a gay person?

[437] But everybody assumed I was just nonstop talking about it.

[438] So I was just, it hurt my feelings.

[439] I was making, I was getting jokes made at my expense on every late night show.

[440] People were making fun of me. So I, I was really depressed.

[441] And because of that and because the show was canceled, I was looked at as a failure in this business.

[442] So no one would touch me. Right.

[443] So I had no agent.

[444] I had no possibility of a job.

[445] I had nothing and I was, and I didn't have money saved because I wasn't making that much on my sitcom.

[446] I wasn't making what Jerry Seinfeld made or Tim Allen or, you know, I was making Drew Carey.

[447] Yeah, or Drew Carey.

[448] Yeah.

[449] I think he made a lot.

[450] I heard.

[451] Yeah.

[452] And I, I didn't make that much.

[453] So I didn't have money saved.

[454] Stay with us for more armchair expert after this message.

[455] What's up guys?

[456] It's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good.

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[464] We've all been there.

[465] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[466] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[467] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[468] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[469] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[470] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[471] Follow Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[472] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon music.

[473] That's what is incredible to me about your journey is when that all goes away, how on earth do you find, like this career that I'm suggesting is really defined by confidence, How on earth do you find in that lull?

[474] Like, fuck that.

[475] I'm writing this story.

[476] I can still do something.

[477] Like, this show was next, right?

[478] Which you just celebrated 15 years?

[479] Well, no. I mean, I had to come back first.

[480] So I, after a couple of years, like three years I didn't work.

[481] And I just thought, I'm not going to work again unless I do stand up.

[482] You know, I mean, that's, I got to do stand up.

[483] So I wrote the beginning, which was my HBO.

[484] I thought, well, at least I can do stand up.

[485] Right.

[486] That's what I do.

[487] And I didn't want to do it because I was done with it.

[488] But I wrote the beginning because it was beginning again.

[489] And it's how I began.

[490] So I wrote the beginning and I went on tour and it was.

[491] People still loved you.

[492] It was gay people still loved me. I had very few straight people showing up to those because they thought they assumed I was just doing gay comedy.

[493] So it was really hard for me to get a crowd again.

[494] You know what's weird.

[495] I've been guilty of this.

[496] It's hypocritical and it's paradoxical.

[497] I've thought when I found someone was gay, I thought, oh, well, I'm, am I going to be able to believe them in a role where they're in love with someone of the opposite sex?

[498] Is that going to get in the way?

[499] My knowledge of them being gay, well, I think in these scenes, oh, but they don't really like that.

[500] It wasn't until I was probably watching like two straight dudes play gay guys and I'm totally invested and I believe they love each other where I realize, oh, this is so fucking hypocritical.

[501] And, but I was susceptible to that for whatever reason.

[502] I don't know why is, like, you think somehow that you're not going to be able to buy into this fairy tale because you know too much about the person well yeah but you're just talking about like you know being at home watching a movie or going to a theater like these are people that are scared to stand in line going people are going to think i'm gay if i'm here like so i got you so i i was like and so i ended up making a joke about it in my special like that we're all here for the same reason we're all gay and then i was like you know now the straight people are like do they think i'm gay i'm not gay And so I do this whole long thing.

[503] You've thought about it.

[504] I haven't thought about it.

[505] Like, so I did this because it really was, I was kind of looked at as the new leader.

[506] And I didn't want to be a leader.

[507] And I didn't want to be political.

[508] And I didn't want to be an activist.

[509] I just wanted to be free from a secret.

[510] From a secret.

[511] And that's all I wanted.

[512] So it was really hard to go out on tour again and see that I only had.

[513] And sometimes like really, you know, the gay community is like a really difficult like line to walk.

[514] Like some people thought you're not gay enough and you're not doing enough for our community.

[515] And there are so many people who have done more.

[516] And it's like, I didn't say I was your leader.

[517] And I didn't say I had done more.

[518] And there's as much diversity in the gay community as there is in any community.

[519] Exactly.

[520] So there's this assumption that you guys are somehow on the same page about something.

[521] But you're just all unique people that.

[522] But that's what I'm saying.

[523] But there are a lot of like really militant gay people that get really angry if you're not like just.

[524] And it's like I don't, I just want to be a comedian.

[525] And I just happen to be gay.

[526] And I just, and of course I'm going to, you know, speak up.

[527] And I think I'm doing a lot just by being a, you know, physical presence of, you know, hopefully a representation, not of the entire gay community, but of somebody at home going, oh, there's someone who's gay.

[528] Anyway, it was really tough because there were a lot of gay people that thought I wasn't being, you know, active enough and political enough and gay enough.

[529] And then, you know, if I, then the straight people are like, you're being too gay.

[530] And if I'd even mention, like, yeah, like how gay, how gay.

[531] I think I'm the right amount of gay for me. It's working for me. I found it to be a very appealing.

[532] So anyway, it was a really tough time.

[533] So was there some relief accompanying the depression of having the show go away and all that?

[534] Is the joy of having the secret out?

[535] Is that quantifiable?

[536] Do you feel that?

[537] Do you feel like, oh, this is a big burden released?

[538] Of course.

[539] You are.

[540] But then you're also dealing with something that's very hard to deal with, which is this lull in your career.

[541] Well, it was a high, and it was celebrated.

[542] And then it was a complete low.

[543] And then, you know, so it was, and, you know, I never thought I'd even be successful enough to have a sitcom in the top 10.

[544] So to me, I had reached the pinnacle of success.

[545] Right.

[546] And then I get, you know, the cover of Time magazine because I'm the first, you know, person to be, you know, openly gay.

[547] You think you're the first gay person in America.

[548] Yeah.

[549] But on a sitcom, like to, you know, so there's all this attention on me. for that.

[550] So that gets a lot of attention.

[551] So I'm thinking, you know, that's the pinnacle and everything is just now taken away from me and now how do I start over?

[552] On a millionth of that level, I can relate to having been honest about being molested in interviews.

[553] And then that always becomes a very big story, right?

[554] And then I always, I get this fear.

[555] People think I'm promoting this, right?

[556] When I was just maybe being honest in the moment when someone asked me what's all in this bag of tricks that led to X, Y, or Z. And it is a, it's so tricky because I, I remember being young and seeing certain people say stuff in magazines.

[557] And then I thought, well, that's weird.

[558] You're bragging about that, you know.

[559] And I come from that place.

[560] And it's prevented me from doing things.

[561] And then when I do them, I just, eventually I have to go, who gives a fuck if someone thinks I'm trying to promote that, right?

[562] I can only just be honest about my own story and then just whatever.

[563] If people think I'm trying to get attention for this, a weird way to get attention.

[564] but okay, I just am going to have to live with that, right?

[565] So, I mean, I understand somewhat, I feel like that weird feeling of like, hey, I'm not promoting, I'm just being honest.

[566] Right.

[567] There's a difference.

[568] Yeah, you just have to just trust that, you know, there's going to be haters out there.

[569] Now, you have achieved far more success than you thought you were going to, right?

[570] Has it healed any emotional stuff for you?

[571] Oh, yeah.

[572] I mean, I let go of all that a long time ago.

[573] I held on to like bitterness and anger for, a little while, but, you know, I'm really grateful for it now.

[574] I'm actually really grateful for it.

[575] I think it's, I can't believe that I was able to achieve what I achieved, lose it all, and then get to this point in my life at 60 years old, like to start over at 45.

[576] And no women start, no, no, no body starts over at 45 in this business, much less a woman.

[577] And so I'm really grateful that I had that experience.

[578] And it made me a stronger person.

[579] Did you have a mentor during that time or anyone whose advice you were seeking or?

[580] No, a lot of people reached out to me. Like Madonna reached out to me and Oprah reached out to me. Is it hard for you to ask for help or guidance?

[581] No, it's just that I wasn't like in the, these were people that literally made a, you know, like Madonna literally made a phone call to me. Like I didn't even know her.

[582] And she reached out and said, you know, you are brave and trust that that's going to come back to to be the best thing that ever happened.

[583] Yeah.

[584] And certainly there's probably no one ahead of you that navigated this all beautifully that you could call up.

[585] You know, I think every lesbian was looking at me like mere cats.

[586] Like they were just like their heads were like, you know, what's going to happen?

[587] And then they all went back in their holes.

[588] And then they're like, never mind.

[589] I mean, I know Portia has said that to me. Like people really were watching like, should I come out?

[590] Let's see how this goes.

[591] That was the litmus test.

[592] Yeah, you're the canary in the coal mine.

[593] So, yeah.

[594] It was definitely something that was, like I said, and when it was really celebrated, I think a lot of people were like, oh, and then it took a while for other people to decide to do that.

[595] I have to assume people tell you in real life all the time that they must thank you for all that, yeah?

[596] That's the one thing when it first started happening because I was closeted.

[597] I wasn't part of any kind of, you know, gay organization like Glad or the Trevor Project or anything.

[598] I was not a part of the gay world.

[599] And so when I came out, I got letters from like kids that were literally.

[600] about to commit suicide and I saved their lives.

[601] And so when I saw the impact and then Matthew Shepard was killed right after I came out and I went to the steps of Washington and spoke out and basically in tears was saying, this is why I did what I did to hope that this would change the world.

[602] I mean, it was stupid and naive of me to think that I could actually make that kind of impact in the world just by coming out.

[603] But when Matthew Shepard was killed, it broke my heart.

[604] because I just thought this is going to stop now and people have an example.

[605] And so I learned a lot about, you know, how much impact having a presence, you know, out there and being, and instead of saying my career and my money is more important, I realize that actually making a difference in the world and just being honest about who you are, whether it's if you were molested or whether it's that you're gay or whatever it is, because whatever your secret is, there's lots of other people out there that have that same secret.

[606] Well, yeah.

[607] And that's why I'm so attracted to you is that I don't think it's helpful for people to see other people with some crazy skill set they're never going to have.

[608] But what I think is super helpful is to go like, oh, I have the same secret.

[609] I'm carrying the same shame.

[610] I really like that person.

[611] I must not be as bad as I think I am because I know they're not.

[612] I think that's so helpful to people.

[613] Absolutely.

[614] And I think that you feel better about yourself that you're actually, you know, I know that I know that.

[615] I know that.

[616] I'm not just a famous person.

[617] I'm someone who's actually making a difference in the world for a lot of different people.

[618] And I'm really proud that I'm openly gay and I get to talk about and say the word wife.

[619] I mean, the fact that that was never talked about on television, but that it's becoming part of the vernacular that someone can hear wife.

[620] And that at least it's digesting, you know, slowly into society.

[621] and that I can, you know, talk about my, my amazing, incredible life with another woman is, is, I think, doing something.

[622] Yeah, it's pretty incredible.

[623] When you took on this show, did you feel like the stakes were super high, like, oh, God, if this doesn't work, now what?

[624] I've done a sitcom.

[625] I've done a talk show.

[626] Did you feel that pressure of this got to fucking work?

[627] I may have, but I don't really remember that pressure.

[628] I remember just thinking it was going to be fun.

[629] And I had high hopes for it.

[630] Well, I think the amazing thing that you've done with the show is the same thing I loved about your stand -up when I was young was it's in a box we all recognize, which is daytime talk show.

[631] But it is 100 % you.

[632] If you want to be talking about animals, you do it.

[633] If you want to talk about any kind of social issue, you make room to do that.

[634] And you don't seem to worry about what the outcome of that's going to be.

[635] You somehow stay very, very true to who you are.

[636] And I think it's just an incredible accomplishment for someone.

[637] just bet on exactly what they are and for it to work out.

[638] And it's really, really impressive.

[639] And I really am glad that I know you and that we're friends.

[640] I feel the same way about you.

[641] All right.

[642] Thanks for doing this.

[643] I love you.

[644] I love you too.

[645] We'll kiss someday.

[646] Okay.

[647] Well, we kiss a lot.

[648] But now we don't make out.

[649] And not even have to be a makeout.

[650] Just like a longer.

[651] A longer kiss.

[652] Yeah.

[653] Like one where people are like, are they going to stop this?

[654] I don't think that's going to happen.

[655] Well, you say that now.

[656] But, you know, a lot of things ahead of us.

[657] Yeah.

[658] I may relapse.

[659] We may do ecososy together.

[660] some point.

[661] Doubt it.

[662] Yeah.

[663] It's very unlikely.

[664] But just there is a world in which that could happen.

[665] Yeah.

[666] I don't want to, I don't want to end this on a bad, because it was so good.

[667] I can always cut it out.

[668] None of that's going to happen.

[669] I love you.

[670] I love you.

[671] Stay tuned if you'd like to hear my good friend and producer Monica Padman point out the many errors in the podcast you just heard.

[672] Monica, this was a short episode.

[673] So I like to think that your lifting was light this week.

[674] Was it?

[675] It was.

[676] There's only, there's only a few things to check.

[677] Oh, okay.

[678] And some of that's just clarification, not even.

[679] Not even someone was wrong or egregious.

[680] But you were wrong once, at least once.

[681] Good.

[682] Okay, good.

[683] Ellen talks about how she started out as an emcee and a club in New Orleans, and that is Clyde's Comedy Club.

[684] Oh, Clyde's Comedy Club.

[685] Is it still around?

[686] I can't remember.

[687] Yeah, that's a hard thing to remember.

[688] Yeah.

[689] And then you guys were talking about Sinbad's clothing.

[690] Okay.

[691] And you were just referring to them as big.

[692] baggy pants, but they have a name harem pants.

[693] Oh, yeah, he wore a lot of harem pants, which is super fitting for someone with the name Sinbad.

[694] Mm -hmm.

[695] He had to.

[696] He had no choice.

[697] He did not have a choice.

[698] He could have never worn overalls, been Sinbad.

[699] Although he probably could have pulled them all.

[700] He probably had harem overalls, like super billowy at the bottom, tight on top.

[701] A lot of loud colors, too.

[702] Did I tell, oh, I didn't have time to tell the story because it was such a short interview and I knew it.

[703] But I was shooting a movie.

[704] I can't even explain how deep in the valley I was.

[705] And if you're not from Los Angeles, you know, the further away from the center you go, you're just deeper, deeper, deeper valley.

[706] You know, the concentration, obviously, of movie stars out in that, the deep recesses of the valley, they fall off pretty dramatically.

[707] And we were shooting this movie at a carpet store that we had bought out the afternoon for.

[708] They shut down.

[709] And Sinbad showed up while we were shooting.

[710] And he was not happy that his carpet store was shut down.

[711] Oh.

[712] It was one of the weirder celebrity sightings I've ever had because I just couldn't understand why Sinbad A was shopping for carpet.

[713] B, why was he shopping for carpet there?

[714] That's interesting.

[715] And he, I'm sure he had become accustomed to the star treatment and he couldn't believe they weren't going to open up the carpet store for him.

[716] And let me also say, I may be filling in the blanks there.

[717] He may have taken it well.

[718] It appeared from my point of view that he was there for a while, long after he learned that it was shut down for the day.

[719] Interesting.

[720] It was very interesting.

[721] And he wasn't dressed as loudly as I would have liked him to have been.

[722] Oh, no. It's not like I saw a huge burst of color walk through the door then looked and it was sin bad.

[723] It was more I noticed it was sin bad.

[724] And then there was no real accoutrema to back up the persona.

[725] It's really a bummer.

[726] God, I hope I'm right that it was sin bad.

[727] Are you, um, okay.

[728] Could this be deformation of character to have been accused of shopping for carpet in the deep, deep valley in the middle of the afternoon?

[729] I like it because it shows that we all need carpet.

[730] Even Sinbad needs carpet.

[731] That's right.

[732] Well, he especially again in keeping needs of flying magic carpet.

[733] Maybe he was there to try to fashion his own.

[734] Whatever.

[735] What else?

[736] Ellen brought up Charo and you said she was South American.

[737] And she said she was Latin American.

[738] I just want to clarify she's from Spain.

[739] Oh, okay.

[740] So neither.

[741] Yeah.

[742] Neither.

[743] Yeah.

[744] Although if she said Latina, did she say Latina?

[745] No. I don't think so.

[746] I don't remember.

[747] His Spanola?

[748] I just want to put into context, Ellen, getting the nod of approval from Johnny Carson because there are so many huge comedians who did not.

[749] Get invited to the couch.

[750] Yeah.

[751] Like Jerry Seinfeld.

[752] Unimaginable, right guys?

[753] I know.

[754] Gerald Seinfeld, one of the most accomplished comedians in the history of the art farm did not get called over.

[755] Yeah, Jim Carrey.

[756] Now really quick, do you think that this is because Carson was an anti -Semite?

[757] Wait.

[758] Are you, wait.

[759] I'm just trying to start a terrible rumor.

[760] Oh, okay.

[761] I'm just trying to, you know, humans, we've talked about this.

[762] You know, we try to make sense of things after the fact.

[763] When things that we are not.

[764] Retroactively.

[765] Yes, we're uncomfortable with things not having made sense.

[766] So when I hear Gerald Seinfeld was not invited to the couch, I think there has to be an explanation because it sure is fucking that he wasn't funny.

[767] Yeah, that's true.

[768] So I go straight to Carson was an anti -Semite, which of course is not true at all.

[769] That's not true.

[770] All these comedians, when they go on, are at the beginning of their game.

[771] The next day they get a sitcom deal, some of them.

[772] People don't know them yet, but then often the next day people would know them and then they'd get huge.

[773] 12 million people are watching or whatever.

[774] Is that one of the facts you're going to bring out?

[775] Because I think I took a stab at how many people.

[776] Yeah, that comes up.

[777] So anyway, yeah, Jim Carrey.

[778] That fell a little soft when I was saying it.

[779] Oh, Jim Carrey didn't get invited over.

[780] Yeah.

[781] Wow.

[782] maybe he hated tall people.

[783] Yeah.

[784] We got to figure this.

[785] We got to explain these anomalies.

[786] But maybe off night.

[787] Yeah.

[788] That's the other thing.

[789] If you're putting all your eggs in this one person's little finger waving you over.

[790] Yeah.

[791] Yeah.

[792] He could be bloated.

[793] He could have diarrhea that day and he wants to get the fuck off that stage and deal with his business.

[794] Exactly.

[795] Also, you know, some people's comedy really lends itself well to a three minute because they don't give you any time, which is almost shocking that Ellen's went so well.

[796] because she has a very paced, casual, delayed, yeah.

[797] Or Chappelle, I think of Chappelle trying to go on a talk show and be funny in three minutes.

[798] It's not, he needs to kind of like bring you into his world for a little while before you.

[799] That's true.

[800] Yeah, are on your ass.

[801] Yeah, okay, so here it is.

[802] You said Carson had 20 million viewers.

[803] Yeah, I was really out on a limb on that one.

[804] And then you said, one in three people were watching it.

[805] Which wouldn't be 20 million.

[806] Right, exactly.

[807] Because there were 256 million people in the U .S. in 1992.

[808] That would have been 84 million.

[809] So it would have been about one in 13 people.

[810] Okay.

[811] But do we even know how many people were really watching them?

[812] The final week of his run in 92, averaged 19 .43 million.

[813] Oh, my goodness.

[814] But that's the final week.

[815] So we can assume that that was inflated.

[816] I tried to find average numbers.

[817] Couldn't be done.

[818] I should have gotten to box office mojo.

[819] I don't think they would have had it.

[820] Maybe TV by the numbers.

[821] That's another website I like to go to to check up on things.

[822] Okay.

[823] TV by the numbers.

[824] You guys were talking about how much other comedians were getting paid for their shows around that time.

[825] And you said, you had said like, oh, Drew Carey made a lot.

[826] Oh, on his, yeah, his network show.

[827] On the Drew Carey show.

[828] I had heard $250 million.

[829] Did I say that out loud during the podcast?

[830] I don't know.

[831] But according to my research, now I feel nervous.

[832] It said $750 ,000 per episode.

[833] Well, right, but that's not any of the money those guys made.

[834] The way a TV contract works, right, he was getting $750 grand to show up in film.

[835] And then he was getting a residual when they re -aired it.

[836] But way more importantly is he owned a significant percentage of that show.

[837] And when it got sold into syndication, for example, the 70s show, which I don't think was as big as the Drew Carey show, their first cycle of syndication went for like $780 million.

[838] The Seinfeld catalogs gone for billions of dollars.

[839] That's how Jerry Seinfeld ended up with.

[840] Or whatever, he's rumored to have $800 million or whatever.

[841] So, yeah, I only meant that Drew Carey ended up with $250 when they sold his show or whatever.

[842] You said $250 million?

[843] I have always heard that he made $250 million on this show.

[844] Oh, I don't think you said that on this podcast.

[845] But not from his fee for acting, but from his ownership once it was packaged and sold.

[846] But $750 ,000 an episode is a lot.

[847] The damn good fucking money.

[848] No one makes anything like that.

[849] No, they sure don't.

[850] Okay, that's all.

[851] Oh, great.

[852] Well, did you like sitting with her?

[853] On the way there, we were discussing the fact that you're regularly around a lot of famous people.

[854] And I'm not a famous person.

[855] And you're not a famous person.

[856] Right.

[857] You have been in movies, but whatever.

[858] And that you're never really.

[859] I'm not starstruck anymore at all.

[860] But then when we left there, you go, I felt a little nervous on the couch.

[861] Yeah.

[862] Yeah.

[863] It was weird.

[864] Yeah, we had just been talking about it.

[865] And I'd said, it's so weird because I'm not, I'm not nervous around to anyone anymore.

[866] I'm not starstruck.

[867] I don't think there's anyone I can.

[868] a meet now that I would, besides maybe Barack Obama being the only exclusion.

[869] Yeah.

[870] Keep your politics out of this podcast.

[871] I love him.

[872] Okay.

[873] I do too.

[874] Anyway, yeah, I was just noting that.

[875] And then we got there and we were sitting and we were, we were waiting a little bit as we were setting up.

[876] Building the tension.

[877] Yeah.

[878] Because she's a very busy lady, as you said.

[879] And we had such a short window.

[880] And I started to get nervous that she was going to be in our presence.

[881] And then I just had to throw out my whole, my whole thesis from earlier.

[882] Do you think any of it had to do with the fact that she's such a powerful woman that like being in the presence of someone that has accomplished so much as a woman?

[883] Do you think that was an aspect of it?

[884] Oh, that's interesting.

[885] Maybe.

[886] Yeah, because I think like, I think part of Oprah's power is not just that she was that successful or that she made a billion dollars, but that she did it as a black female.

[887] There's something that is just quadruply impressive about that.

[888] That's yes.

[889] I mean, yeah, it's overcoming much more odds.

[890] But I don't think that's registering for me as much as she's a lesbian female.

[891] Yeah.

[892] Again, but that's still not.

[893] I feel like.

[894] Are you allowed to say?

[895] I just said that word out loud and I felt like I'm not supposed to say it anymore.

[896] Do we still say lesbian?

[897] Yeah.

[898] Okay.

[899] It just felt weird coming on.

[900] You know, sometimes you know, like I feel like my grandparent.

[901] Yeah.

[902] We haven't said.

[903] Like my grandmother thinks she's being very respectful when she says.

[904] someone's colored like because that her childhood that was as good as you could do right so she thinks she's being really respectful and it is rough when you're at a restaurant and she's talking about the colored people in her neighborhood or whatever and I just want to go like guys she really thinks she's doing the right thing african -american right now yeah yeah yeah yeah I think it's okay that you just said that I think she said it okay but this is a weird thing to say maybe it's not true.

[905] But when you meet men and you're a woman, there's more involved than just like taking them in at face value.

[906] There's like other things that come into play when you're meeting men.

[907] Like whether you're attracted them or not?

[908] Yeah.

[909] That's a weird thing to say.

[910] Why?

[911] I don't know.

[912] You're an animal.

[913] An animal's number one job is a procreate.

[914] It's all subconscious.

[915] The idea that none of us are not thinking about a 24 -7 is a fucking joke.

[916] So the one thing we're here to do is eat.

[917] But it's not intentional.

[918] I think it's all it's not like you meet someone and you think am I attracted it's just there's there's a subconscious thing happening you're evaluating a little bit more oh yeah well and in a weird sense now that you're saying it that does put a little bit of the power in your lap because you're like well I'm making a decision now whether I'm attracted to this person or not so you are you at that moment are kind of in the driver's seat yeah so it could right size their absolutely but when you meet Ellen that's not there so it is you're just confronted with her at face value and yeah and her power and all of her skills and it's a little more intimidating.

[919] Yeah, absolutely.

[920] So I've been kind of wanting to do this for a while and I'm going to attempt to do it off the cuff because I think in this podcast, we're going to have time on this one because she was short.

[921] I often reference the 12 step program that I'm a part of and I say that I do think there are some elements in that program that could be very useful to all people, alcoholic or not.

[922] And let me also say this.

[923] Sometimes you'll hear me reluctantly say AA, and I prefer to call it a 12 -step program.

[924] And that is because in the principles of the program, we are supposed to remain anonymous at the level of press and media.

[925] And I have broken that.

[926] And I've made a very, it was a, you know, a well -thought -out or not.

[927] I put a lot of time into whether or not I would break my own anonymity publicly.

[928] I ultimately lean towards the fact that I think more good can be done than harm, if I'm honest about it.

[929] and someone might think, you know, that I'm someone they might want to emulate and then they might find sobriety.

[930] And so, you know, I've pissed off probably a lot of people in AA by talking about it.

[931] The more important reason that I don't generally say AA specifically is because I may relapse.

[932] I've been sober 13 years, but I just as likely to relapse tomorrow maybe as I was on day 15 of this.

[933] And so I do not want to be the face of AA because if it fail, if I fail at my sobriety, it is not a failure of AA.

[934] It is a failure of me. I'll have stopped working it the way it needs to be worked.

[935] So I just want to be very clear about, I am hesitant to talk about it so much because I don't want to be the poster child and I don't want if I fail for it to be a mark against AA.

[936] With all that said, I want to tell you about my interpretation of the four step because I feel like it is the most breakthrough kind of thought process that's changed my life tremendously.

[937] It's really clever in the way it's constructed because it gets you to do something that you probably wouldn't be able to do if constructed any other way.

[938] So the very first thing that they ask you to do is just make a list of people that you're resentful towards, right?

[939] So you might say, I hate Mrs. Glendie.

[940] She was my third grade teacher.

[941] She always put me in the back of the class, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

[942] So Mrs. Glendie's on the list.

[943] Then you might have an ex -boyfriend on the list.

[944] You might have someone you work with.

[945] You know, this list can vary.

[946] I've gone over many guys' four steps with them.

[947] You know, some people, but 15 people on this list.

[948] Some people have 150 people.

[949] It doesn't really matter.

[950] You do want to get at least, you know, I think, around 20 people on this list.

[951] And it's throughout your whole lifetime.

[952] So it's just a list of people you're resentful towards, are angry at.

[953] So that's on the left column.

[954] And then you make another column and you say, so Jerry, I resent Jerry.

[955] What is it you resent about Jerry?

[956] So the next column is he's always trying to get me fired.

[957] He's always telling my boss if I'm laid or I didn't turn in something, right?

[958] So that's easy to answer.

[959] Why do I hate Jerry?

[960] Well, here's why he's always trying to get me fired.

[961] And then in the third column, you're going to say, what fear of yours is being triggered by this?

[962] So if Jerry's always trying to get me fired, well, that threatens my sense of economic security, right?

[963] So I will write down my fear of economic insecurity.

[964] And then ultimately what you could then think about is, well, if I'm never late, there's really nothing for Jerry to tell my boss, right?

[965] So I do play a role in this minimally.

[966] If I don't turn in my shit late, there's nothing to report on me. So I do play a role in this, me hating Jerry.

[967] I'm part of this.

[968] But way more importantly, and I encourage anyone to try this, if you make a list of 30 people or 120 people or whatever, you will start to see so quickly that all these people you're upset with trigger the same three fears over and over and over again.

[969] So for me, I have a huge fear of economic insecurity growing up, kind of poor at the beginning.

[970] So there's a lot of people on my list that they just triggered the same fear over and over again.

[971] And then I have a fear of my status.

[972] I'm so worried about this person was trying to make me look stupid or make me look less than or whatever.

[973] I'm mad at Mary because she said this or that.

[974] So I have a big fear of that I won't be high enough status.

[975] or that I'm less than.

[976] And then I have a fear that people think I'm stupid.

[977] I've talked about that on here and that comes from being dyslexic or whatever.

[978] And so when I'm done with this whole four -step list, I now have a sense of these three fears that are basically running my life because there's people I hate because of these fears.

[979] I'm certainly doing a lot of my character defects are probably to support this fear I have.

[980] And now I have a roadmap of what to attack because if I don't have any fears, I'm not going to have any resentments because you really can't be triggered by people that aren't triggering fears of yours.

[981] The example I always like to give is you could put 100 people in a room, put me on a stage and every one of them could be shouting, Dax, you're too short, you're too short, you're embarrassingly small.

[982] You're just a midget.

[983] You're so embarrassingly short.

[984] I could withstand that for 10 hours and it would always be comical to me because I know I'm six, two or three.

[985] I have no fear of being short and it just will have no effect on me. But if you put me in a room with just one person who's saying you're egomaniacal at times and narcissistic and you talk too much and you need everyone's approval, that's going to get on my nerves right quick because those are real character flaws I have.

[986] And I act those ways to try to elevate my status because I have a fear of status or to overcome this that people think I'm stupid.

[987] Again, if I can get my arms around the things I'm afraid of, it's incredible how much downstream business it takes care of.

[988] And there are steps you can take to confront your fears.

[989] If I have a fear of economic security, then I should do some real financial planning.

[990] And I should really crunch the numbers and find out what it takes me to stay alive for a year or support my kids.

[991] And I should have a real number, not one that I've, I just never feel safe.

[992] You know, I should really put some effort into going what's worth being afraid of and what's not.

[993] And then, you know, my status, a thing I like to do to confront that fear of mine is to just every time I start comparing myself to someone.

[994] else, like an alarm in my head will go off going, here we go.

[995] This is you.

[996] You're always going to feel worse when you compare yourself to somebody.

[997] And you're not going to feel like your higher status at the end of this.

[998] And you're really only entitled to compare yourself to an older version of yourself, a previous version, because really your only goal is to make yourself better.

[999] And that's something I can do.

[1000] I can also help other people who need my help.

[1001] Because when I'm engaged in that activity, I kind of stop thinking about status and I start recognizing the truer and more meaningful things about being a human on this planet.

[1002] But anyways, that's just a tip I thought I'd throw up.

[1003] This way you don't have to go become an alcoholic just to join AA to learn how to do a four step.

[1004] But it is fun, especially in a relationship, if you start talking about a topic and you feel your heart rate accelerating and your blood pressure rising, it's a good time to go, hmm, I bet if fears is being triggered.

[1005] And I know what fears I have.

[1006] So which one of these fears is being triggered?

[1007] My fear of abandonment, my fear of, you know, this or that, it's very helpful when you start to fight with a loved one to take 15 minutes, go into a room, and really get honest about what fear is being triggered and recognize that this is something from childhood and it's not real in the moment right now and then go out and tell your loved one.

[1008] You know what?

[1009] When you said that, it really triggered my fear of abandonment and that's what I'm actually fearing.

[1010] I don't care if you go on a trip to Spain.

[1011] I just felt that way.

[1012] And then your loved one could tell you, I will never abandon you.

[1013] And that may solve everything.

[1014] So that's my two cents on that.

[1015] And maybe I'll tell some other steps if that was of use or value to anyone else.

[1016] I'm glad you shared that.

[1017] Oh.

[1018] I really am.

[1019] Oh, good.

[1020] Because I feel like getting to know you over the past couple of years has really changed the way I think about those things because you talk about that so often.

[1021] Yeah.

[1022] We've had fun kind of like going through things if they're hot button topics.

[1023] for you in the moment.

[1024] We'll kind of dissect them and it's fun, right?

[1025] Yeah, and it's very helpful.

[1026] All right.

[1027] I love you.

[1028] I love you.

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