323 - Pills & Thrills

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] To my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hartstock.

[3] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[4] The end.

[5] You always got to take a sip of whatever your drink is right at that moment.

[6] Yeah, that's when I do it.

[7] Is that late night talk show?

[8] Yeah.

[9] This is me killing time during the dramatic pause after we introduced the show and then the impact of our listeners hearing.

[10] Yeah.

[11] It really is the show that I press playing.

[12] on.

[13] Wow.

[14] Like, right?

[15] You just got to give them four and a half seconds.

[16] A powerful pause.

[17] While I, well, you make drinking noises on a, on a podcast.

[18] That's how it goes.

[19] Things people hate the most on podcast, drinking.

[20] I don't know.

[21] Would you say you hate drinking noises more than eating noises?

[22] No. I think I hate drinking noises more.

[23] Really?

[24] Honestly, neither of them bother me that much eating noises bother me more though eating uh -huh there's something about you know what did i think it is the swallowing sound oh nobody fucking wants to hear another person's you know what's the word that i fucking love and hate so much when you chew something mastication yeah no one wants to hear that word alone gives you creepy feelings mastication mastication or a glottal any kind of epiglottis action.

[25] I don't want to hear it.

[26] I don't want to hear the enzymes in your mouth.

[27] Breaking down.

[28] Breaking things down so that your gut and the microbes in your gut can then churring them out even more, et cetera, et cetera.

[29] Not in my backyard.

[30] Not with my kids.

[31] Not in my backyard.

[32] Not in my America.

[33] No way.

[34] Not this America.

[35] What's going on?

[36] I'm going to get comfortable let my hair down.

[37] Well, can I tell you about that I did, I finally did the homework that I wish I had done years ago, but it didn't exist years ago when I made the mistake.

[38] But I felt as if when I saw this on Netflix, it was my duty as a person who had fucked up the identity and switched names that I had to watch the documentary on Netflix about Jimmy Saville.

[39] Oh, my God.

[40] The British entertainer slash serial, serial pedophile.

[41] Also, but actually sex pest to the max.

[42] Right.

[43] Because one of the very final lines, no spoilers.

[44] Yeah.

[45] One of the very final lines of this documentary is like just a black card comes up.

[46] And it says that he sexually molested and assaulted people from ages.

[47] And it was something like seven to 75 or something horrible.

[48] horrifying.

[49] I mean, it is really bad.

[50] And now I just want our listeners to know the mistake I'm talking about.

[51] I simply will never make that mistake again.

[52] Yeah.

[53] Because I know who Jimmy Saville is now.

[54] My God.

[55] That documentary is done really well.

[56] So much so that I tried to get Vince to watch it with me. And the trailer made him so creeped out and uncomfortable that he wouldn't watch it.

[57] I've watched like one episode and it's incredible.

[58] And just the whole time you're like, what the fuck?

[59] how how and obviously the how is fucking this institutionalized you know allowance of people with fame and money and charisma to get away with whatever they want and who align themselves with do -gooders and doing good so they align themselves with charity or they align themselves with volunteerism for the princess diana oh yeah he had the royal family and i mean but also didn't you find it interesting or maybe i don't know if you got this in one episode But first of all, as you well know, I never want to hear these people talking.

[60] I don't care.

[61] I don't want to get to know them so then they're reveal.

[62] You don't need to.

[63] Like, you already know who these people are.

[64] But it was so disturbing because he has a full life of video recording.

[65] So they just kept cutting back to him, talking, making excuses, making jokes.

[66] Yeah, but like jokes that fit perfectly with how creepy he was.

[67] And, of course, the hindsight, himself.

[68] saying that that he likes him young or whatever is the fucking, I mean, it's creepy to say that anyways, but the way he says it, it's like funny back then.

[69] He was our like, what, Dick Clark or something or their Dick, you know, the UK's Dick Clark would say.

[70] Yes.

[71] Not saying Dick Clark is a pedophile.

[72] Well, that's the other piece I was going to say is to be outside, because you're like, it's this institution, but we aren't in that institution.

[73] So we did not know this man from childhood.

[74] He was not any kind of like stalwart entertainer in any way.

[75] So you're watching this going, uh, yeah, yeah, that guy is the worst.

[76] Anyone should have asked us over here in the the heck in the hair alone.

[77] In our America.

[78] This great America.

[79] But also there was that amazing interview with a woman who was like the morning, the morning show host that he just kept disgustingly and aggressively making passes out and doing weird shit with that she had.

[80] to agree with.

[81] He knew she had to agree.

[82] She had to yes and him.

[83] And it's just man. Yeah.

[84] It's quite something of like people like to talk about the reactivity of a PC culture, blah, blah, blah.

[85] It's like let's look back on this was merely the 80s.

[86] It wasn't it was in 1920.

[87] It was fucking relatively recently and it was this bad.

[88] I mean, y 'all who are like we have some sense.

[89] to atone for.

[90] So if we take a severe right turn and overcorrect, then it's well deserved and shut the fuck up and let it happen.

[91] Because yes, we need to prove to like children that we won't just let anyone come on up and babysit them or, oh, hi, Blossom.

[92] Yeah.

[93] Speaking of somebody coming on up, excuse me, we're talking about pedophilia in England.

[94] Stop it.

[95] Blossom, do better.

[96] Blossom.

[97] Hey, bestie, oof.

[98] That's what I have to say to Blossom.

[99] Okay, yeah.

[100] So the Jimmy Saville documentary on Netflix.

[101] Yeah, it's incredible.

[102] Watch it, but it's really awful.

[103] Don't watch it if you're feeling anything other than ready to fight because it's just also, it's not satisfying.

[104] It's in that way where he dies before anything really happens.

[105] And it just all kind of points toward, yeah, because he was too powerful.

[106] No one could even imagine.

[107] And also, I've watched other it wasn't a full documentary I don't think but I've seen other shows on him and it was that went further into how he had like places set up for him to just go and molest like he had systems worked out all over that country where he was that's all he did that's what he did it's really really upsetting they didn't really go that far into that how extensive it was except for those cards.

[108] Speaking of true crime documentaries, have you seen the Invisible Pilot?

[109] It's on Apple Plus.

[110] No. It's only like one or two episodes right now, but it's so good.

[111] It takes place like in the 70s, this rough and tumble pilot, like teach them yourself, you know, down homey pilot drives one of those cars that are a car, but it's got the truck back on it.

[112] Is that a Camaro?

[113] What is that?

[114] A Subaru brat?

[115] No, but you know the ones that are like, yes, but the ones that are like big and long and famous.

[116] El Camino.

[117] And El Camino, like, he's that guy.

[118] So he, he's this, like, outlaw.

[119] It's basically, and here's my theory, is that he is, that he is D .B. Cooper.

[120] Like, oh, it's this great story of this outlaw pilot guy, who I swear to God, like, it could be D .B. Cooper's, like, origin story if they wanted to be, but it's not.

[121] It's really good.

[122] The Invisible Pilot.

[123] Yeah.

[124] How was it a true crime thing?

[125] because I can't get too much away, but he basically becomes like the biggest drug smuggling pilot.

[126] Oh, it's also cocaine bears origin story.

[127] It could be like, it could be like all of those things.

[128] Oh, yes.

[129] Okay.

[130] Okay.

[131] Got it.

[132] Yeah.

[133] It's great.

[134] I mean, it is kind of in that far pre -9 -11 world.

[135] There were so little regulations that, I mean, that's a big part of Catch Me if you can, where he just would dress up like a pilot and then anything goes.

[136] Or he was a pilot.

[137] I can't remember.

[138] but it was just like, yeah, he could take suitcases of drugs or money or whatever onto planes and fly them around.

[139] It's also back at a time where, like, you could just take a, like a piece, like, you know, open up a Coke can and put some needle and thread in it.

[140] And there's your ID and it's totally legal.

[141] And like, it could just disappear.

[142] And how do you mean?

[143] I don't know.

[144] You could just make up a new ID out of anything.

[145] And people would be like, yep, that's your legal ID.

[146] It says, this is who I am now.

[147] And anyone believes it.

[148] I'm like, did this happen?

[149] Go can with the Hill of Thread.

[150] I'm just trying to think of it.

[151] Like, oh, like arts and crafts, you're saying.

[152] Yeah, you do arts and crafts to make up a, like, a legit identification of who you are and what you're doing and why.

[153] Yeah.

[154] You just say, oh, this is my license.

[155] I'm from Hawaii or some state that that person's not in.

[156] It's like, oh, yeah, it's a little different than yours.

[157] Yeah, they print IDs on pineapple in Hawaii.

[158] Sure.

[159] It's my coconut ID.

[160] Okay, that's a good one.

[161] Oh, also, well, I let this roll right in.

[162] because I was having a lazy day here in L .A., gentle listener, it was hot, like, boiling hot over the weekend, and then all of a sudden now it's cold.

[163] But it happened so fast that I was, like, sitting at the table, like, working on my story, and I had a short -sleeve shirt on, and I was like, got into a bad mood.

[164] And then I was like, oh, I'm just cold.

[165] It's like freezing.

[166] I'm sitting in my house freezing with the sliding glass door open.

[167] Yeah.

[168] But I let the Jimmy Savile documentary roll over into another series that actually has been recommended to me by a bunch of people called Worst Roommate Ever.

[169] And the first episode's about Dorothea Puente.

[170] Yeah, I haven't seen it yet.

[171] It's really well made.

[172] It's really well done.

[173] I mean, it's tough these days because now there's one million.

[174] I mean, obviously, the production of true crime documentaries is like going like gangbusters.

[175] Yeah.

[176] But this one's made really well.

[177] It shot really well.

[178] It's edited really interestingly.

[179] But heartbreakingly, it made me realize because now they have like satellite shots of the neighborhood that I used to live in that she used to live in where the house was.

[180] And she wasn't two doors down.

[181] But you always thought she was like two doors down from you.

[182] That's what we were told when we lived there and we could see into the backyard and it was this whole thing.

[183] Well, when I looked at this satellite image, she.

[184] lived in a house like basically is one street down oh we were basically kind of parallel to her but not on the same street i've bragged so much about it you've now lost all credibility in the true crime community i'd like to apologize for our listeners i'd like to apologize hate mail to my favorite murder at gmo you know what's so funny about like that's that documentary sounds great um but i was talking to our friend bananas scotty landis at a party recently about how all true crime documentaries or about people swindling people.

[185] It's about murder sometimes, but mostly it's about like the Tinder swindler and this pilot, you know, who did all this crazy.

[186] A lot of swindling lately.

[187] A lot of that.

[188] Yeah.

[189] And even like, even Jimmy Seville, it's like, or Saville, it's like swindling people.

[190] It's like really the name of the game these days.

[191] Right, because I think, which is the same as this show or any true crime is like, we want to talk about who does stuff like this and talk about what they're like so that you could recognize that type of person if they come into your life.

[192] Right.

[193] Vince just walked in the room the moment you said that.

[194] Hi.

[195] Can you close the door just a little bit?

[196] Thank you.

[197] So you can recognize them as they come into your life and then Vince walks in.

[198] It's like the biggest like she should have known.

[199] Karen told her right when he walked in the door that the fateful.

[200] Yeah.

[201] Yeah.

[202] Totally.

[203] That's all we want is to be able to have like goggles, like swindler goggles on I mean to me it's just don't be so impressed by rich people or private planes it's not that big of a deal it's not that big of a deal what we've been trying if we have not been trying to join in the past six years it's that literally it's like in the tenders alert and I do you you didn't really watch it right no I watched it yeah oh well what I loved was that those women they like swiped whatever the right to correct direction is on Tinder for him and then a Immediately it was just like, look at his Irmez belt.

[204] Right.

[205] Look at his Gucci blouse.

[206] Right.

[207] He must be successful.

[208] Right.

[209] And then he's like, I want to take you to a different country on a private plane and they're like, I think he's the one.

[210] And it's like, well, how about you unpack your reasons for why that would matter so much to you?

[211] I think unpacking the reason your 27 is the biggest deal because I feel like a lot of us 40, 50 -something year olds would be.

[212] like, I don't like him.

[213] Right.

[214] And any Rames's fucking belt can be faked with a tin can and some fucking thread.

[215] Everyone knows that when you're over 40.

[216] It can be your ID and your belt buckle.

[217] I just think that guy was so unappealing.

[218] Truly.

[219] So unappealing.

[220] And also a guy you're trying to date who calls you honey, it's like that's four red flags by itself.

[221] Yeah.

[222] I mean, I don't want a victim shame because we've all been, you know, we've all been on some level pulled into like you know some charming person oh please some of us have married them i'm not wait that's all right back in then vince storms into the door and starts screaming uh i'm blushing okay go on i'm not judging the victims also you get to like what you like so you know like you can't help it if you're attracted to somebody because you didn't have anything.

[223] That's a huge relief and it's an attraction and whatever.

[224] Also, you know, like if you had a grammar school teacher who had a big curly hair and a big thick mustache, you might like those people.

[225] Like you, we can't really control those.

[226] What are you saying?

[227] Well, Mr. Ceple was kind of hot.

[228] No. He sounds like Bob, Bob, uh, Bob, uh, what's the, from Bob's burgers, Bob Belcher?

[229] No, what's the Bob, the painter guy?

[230] Pretty little Bob Ross.

[231] Bob Ross.

[232] He's actually the perfect combination of those two men.

[233] But I'm just saying you can't help who you're initially attracted to, but you can have better standards than just money and like assholes that spend money like to be showy.

[234] Because it's never a good sign.

[235] Yeah, 100%.

[236] In my opinion.

[237] You got to get those people that are like hiding their money in the couch cushion and they're just like, I don't know, want to go to the drive in.

[238] You're just like, this guy.

[239] And then you find out he's this a billionaire.

[240] oh my god happily ever after uh let's see i have to reiterate speaking of tv shows i talked about this couple weeks ago but i just finished the episode this past week the last episode aired that fucking show severance yeah on hbo is one of the best like seasons of a show i've seen and i found out that hold on one second ben stiller john juturo adam scotton well ben stiller's a producer.

[241] He's not even in it.

[242] I thought he was the director.

[243] That's what I meant.

[244] It's a different thing.

[245] Britt Lower, who's so good, who was in a manseeking woman, she was a sister.

[246] But it was created by Dan Erickson.

[247] And when I talked about it last time on the podcast, Hannah Cright and our producer text me and was like, we went to college together.

[248] It's his first show.

[249] And I am blow.

[250] It is so good.

[251] The last episode was like one of the best season ending episodes I've seen.

[252] Like, I can't fucking recommend it enough.

[253] It's sci -fi.

[254] It's creepy.

[255] It's weird.

[256] Season finale.

[257] You're looking for the word season finale?

[258] What did I say?

[259] That's what I meant.

[260] What did I say?

[261] Series ending?

[262] Series ending.

[263] Sure.

[264] And I've heard tons of people talking about it.

[265] I am in the second episode now.

[266] Okay.

[267] And I'm getting it.

[268] And I'm also trying to stay away from people talking in detail about it.

[269] Yeah.

[270] Don't.

[271] Right?

[272] So, yeah.

[273] It's great.

[274] That's good.

[275] It gets, oh, my God.

[276] Watch.

[277] Yeah.

[278] It's like a perfect little package of a series.

[279] and I got so bummed when it ended.

[280] But it got renewed, so great, yay.

[281] Oh, good, good, good.

[282] It made me that first episode with the low ceilings and fluorescent lights.

[283] Yeah.

[284] Made me at first begin to walk down me when I worked in offices and it seemed like I was never going to not have to work in offices, jobs, depression.

[285] And then I snapped myself out by going, you don't do that anymore.

[286] You're very lucky and you get to not do that anymore.

[287] So it really renewed my super gratitude for podcasting.

[288] You never get past it, though.

[289] Like you never get past, and I still don't either.

[290] Like every time I lay down for a nap during the day now, even though it's been 11 years since I had to have a desk job that I used to take naps under my desk when it was quiet because I was so tired.

[291] And I said to myself, if I ever don't have to work at, you know, nine to five, every nap I take, I will appreciate.

[292] And still to this fucking day, every time I lay down for a nap, I just go, yay.

[293] you did it yes and it can be done you don't need a college degree you don't need a ton of things apparently according to me in Georgia there's many things you can lack and still get there right just a little chutzpah and a friend good idea and some other people who also like the thing you like right that's it yeah it's that easy oh speaking of Game of Thrones a thing that other people like your new podcast your new game of throne podcast i have a game of thrones update it's been a while i am no longer interested in game of thrones oh i got to season six okay almost i just can't no i won't no i won't yeah yeah yeah yeah i can't care anymore it just got so boring what do you remember one of the last things that happened aria stark isn't ary is dark anymore she's in the place where she has to not have a face or a name or whatever yeah fucking john snow set off into the you know deep wide wanderous world and then you know what's your face got her hair cut off all short i don't know it just stopped bad or i stopped caring about it didn't you like the shame walk shame shame no i got so gross it was great it was an amazing scene but it was gross let me ask you one question okay and i need this to be it's a fine if it's a spoiler i just want to know and if the answer is yes, I will continue.

[294] Okay.

[295] Does the hound come back?

[296] Shit.

[297] No. Then I'm not interested.

[298] She left him when he was dying, not dead.

[299] So I was like, okay, maybe he'll come back.

[300] Because he was like my favorite.

[301] The duo there was great.

[302] I don't know why I'm talking about this.

[303] Like, I fucking, first of all, the reason I think I know is because Rory McCann is the actor who plays the hound.

[304] Right.

[305] You know him.

[306] And he was in the British show.

[307] So I will always.

[308] brag.

[309] I will always take five seconds to say I know Rory McAnne.

[310] Which I love which is why I'm asking you.

[311] I'm like, you're his friend.

[312] Did he ever call you and say, hey, guess what?

[313] I'm going to be back on.

[314] I don't know.

[315] Well, we weren't calling friends.

[316] Exactly.

[317] I know.

[318] I literally would have to go, Karen, I was in a show with you.

[319] No. He's in Glasgow.

[320] But I watched like, I would say in the beginning, 70 % because Rory McCann was in it.

[321] I was just this is the greatest and he deserves it.

[322] But I honestly think he didn't come back.

[323] But I can't remember because a lot of stuff happens at the end.

[324] And I'm not sure where you are.

[325] Yeah.

[326] Brienne of Tarth started to get on my nerves a little bit.

[327] All right.

[328] Oh, too tall.

[329] Okay.

[330] I loved that she was in love with.

[331] I know.

[332] I love that they kind of were in love with each other.

[333] I know.

[334] Not meant to be.

[335] That was a really great storyline.

[336] But then it fell apart and he became an asshole again.

[337] Like he thought he was going to start to be like good.

[338] soft and then he's like nope still gonna fuck my sister like it just i didn't it stopped giving me gifts and okay you know everyone says when something stops giving you gifts it's time to walk away so now i'm reading the self -help book giving me gifts oh my god speaking of did you watch lizzo's watch out for the big girls i have not yet it'll make me cry too much oh i watched it in a weekend i cried the whole time i feel so much better about myself and the world it was incredible it's incredible she's the greatest she's the greatest every woman on that show who was auditioning to be you know her big girl dancers like the best fucking people i followed them all on instagram now maybe i want to be a dancer i don't know sure which is impossible it's not too late it's not too late yeah also as two people who went and watched lizzo live at the palladium yeah way back when that show was constant dancing i was just like how is she doing all this dancing and singing with without even like gasping once no i mean i would be on the floor crying god that was such a good show yeah and her backup dancers every single one of them was like this dynamic could stand on their own and just still steal the fucking show like all of them and so these these women on the show are auditioning but it's not like a reality show where like every episode someone gets kicked off and cries and stuff it's not like that like the point isn't to get kicked off oh oh oh that's good it's like really feeling goody one girl gets sent home because she's not getting along with the other girls and she's kind of like not cool like that's the kind of show it is it's yeah really positive uplifting yeah i'm gonna have to put some time aside that's almost like special viewing where i'm like can i cry do have somewhere to go can my eyes be this swollen yeah because i know i love it and i i do love dance oh you are a creature of the dogs you know me and my don'ts you know what's actually funny or Jacob Tierney of Letterkenny was in town and we started watching, of course, I try to put in e -dating and that's like, I did a pilot documentary when I tried to find the one about the pilot.

[339] That's right.

[340] Nope.

[341] Nothing came up.

[342] You need so many more search terms these days.

[343] Okay, so we started watching this show called Dating No Filter and I just have to say we were binging it.

[344] It's so funny.

[345] So two comics sitting or talent from E or whatever Are sitting on a couch watching people go on blind dates But so it has a little bit of that What was that show?

[346] A blind date Oh, blind date, got it.

[347] Remember the 90s show Blind Date?

[348] Yes, I loved it.

[349] My ex -boyfriend was on that.

[350] So it has that vibe.

[351] But these are much more produced dates.

[352] They're kind of crazy.

[353] It's like crazy shit.

[354] But these people they have on there are so funny.

[355] All of them are genuinely conversationally funny.

[356] They're not.

[357] reading off of prompters, they're genuinely riffing.

[358] And I was like having written on a bunch of E pilots and a bunch of stuff for that channel.

[359] That was not good.

[360] I was like, oh my God, they've cracked it, like dating no filter.

[361] So if you're sitting around and you just need to binge funny reality dating silliness, dating no filter on E is a genuinely hilarious show with like it made me feel good about the comedians of tomorrow.

[362] There's so many good.

[363] comics on it.

[364] Nice.

[365] I love it.

[366] Yeah.

[367] Great.

[368] Right.

[369] Okay.

[370] That's enough recommendations.

[371] Okay.

[372] Here's Exactly Right Corner, our podcast network.

[373] And this is the corner dedicated to the podcast network that we have called Exactly Right Media.

[374] And there's so much going on in Exactly Right Media and on that network.

[375] The lead story lately is that our Banana Boys, Scotty Landis and Kurt Brunler, have booked a guest for the Banana's Weird News podcast.

[376] that might just blow your mind.

[377] Charlize Theron is going to be on their podcast.

[378] You know, the up -and -coming actress, Charlize Theron.

[379] You know the young hopeful Charlize Throne.

[380] She's on their podcast.

[381] I was so great what they told us that.

[382] I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe it.

[383] What a get.

[384] I mean, what a get.

[385] On Parent Footprint with Dr. Dan, the Incredible Parenting Podcast, that also you don't need to be a parent for it also is, like, helpful for me. in my inner child.

[386] Dr. Dan had Myisha T. on and the episode's called Check Your Privilege.

[387] And she's the founder of Check Your Privilege.

[388] And they talk about awareness of unconscious bias and educate parents on families and parenting.

[389] It's really important.

[390] That's great.

[391] Well, also, if you just want some straight up comedy, you can go back over to I said no gifts.

[392] Because this week, Bridger's guest is comedian River Butcher.

[393] And he's hilarious.

[394] I've known him for a long time.

[395] Really good comedian.

[396] and that show's still killing it.

[397] It just won't quit.

[398] We've tried so hard to make him quit, and he just refuses.

[399] He will not.

[400] He refuses to quit.

[401] He's got a contract, so what are we going to do, you know?

[402] That's right.

[403] He can't quit.

[404] Also, if you've always wanted to become a member of the fan cult, and we know you probably maybe have, we are excited to let you know that our 2022 exclusive membership gifts have launched for new and renewing members.

[405] So every time you join the fan cult or renew for the next year, there's a new, like, little gift set that we pass out.

[406] And this one is really freaking cool.

[407] We, like, put a lot of thought into it.

[408] We make sure it's something you can't just get randomly on the store.

[409] So go to our website, My Favorite Murder .com, to see that exciting stuff and all the merch we have there.

[410] And then just to round it out, you may or may not know that April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month.

[411] So we just want to tell you really quickly about the Sexual Violence Prevention Association, the SVPA.

[412] They're a survivor -led nonprofit that prevents sexual violence systemically by revolutionizing policy, research, and institutions, and they advocate for legislation to prevent sexual violence.

[413] They also do a lot of work with colleges and universities and workplaces to improve practices to prevent sexual violence.

[414] So if you're interested in donating to SVPA, visit the exactly right website or you can follow them on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter at SVPA.

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[435] Georgia, this week I'm going to go classic serial killer story and he's one not a lot of people have heard about, I don't think.

[436] Although, well, I'll just start to tell you about it.

[437] But it's a fascinating area and the reason that I first picked him is because he is called the National Forest serial killer.

[438] killer.

[439] His name is Gary Hilton.

[440] Do you know that our stories have a connection this week for like the first time ever?

[441] For the first time.

[442] Hannah called me and she was just like, this happened and it happened accidentally.

[443] I swear to God, I did not do that some purpose.

[444] She was like, it'll be okay if we do it this way and this way and this way and it'll happen and it'll be great.

[445] I'd be like, I could do a different story.

[446] She's like, no, this will be great.

[447] Yeah.

[448] Well, there's just this weird overlap that like, Especially for a serial killer that isn't famous and isn't well -known, except for once I was reading through this, I was like, oh, actually, there's some pretty well -known things that have come out of this.

[449] It's strange.

[450] Okay, so let me just tell you about it.

[451] It starts New Year's Day 2008, and we're in Georgia, and a 24 -year -old woman named Meredith Emerson decides to go hiking with her dog Ella on the Freeman Trail in Vogel State Park, which is in Georgia.

[452] just Chattahoochee National Forest.

[453] But neither Meredith, who is very athletic.

[454] She's an avid hiker.

[455] She was also trained in martial arts or her dog Ella come back home, like within her normal time.

[456] This is something she did all the time.

[457] She hiked a lot.

[458] She was very outdoorsy.

[459] So the next day, when she didn't make it back, all her friends know something is very wrong.

[460] They go to the park to go look for her, but they have no luck.

[461] And once they report this.

[462] to the authorities, everyone's really concerned because it's New Year's Day, or now it's January 2nd.

[463] And at that time of year, the nighttime temperatures go below zero.

[464] Anyone who may have gotten lost or injured on the trail that she took could possibly get hypothermia.

[465] But her friends and family are actually more worried because they know she wouldn't get lost.

[466] And she probably wouldn't get injured that something must have happened to her.

[467] Right.

[468] So when the police get the statements from the witnesses who were at the park that day that Meredith was there, many of them say they saw a silver -haired older man who also had a dog following Meredith and her dog on the Freeman Trail.

[469] When they finally start the search of the park to try to find Meredith, over 100 volunteers come.

[470] They say in the local paper that it was like they'd never seen a turnout like that before.

[471] But the police hold those volunteers back because they want to search the park with, with a thermal detector so that they can actually see and they don't want people walking everywhere.

[472] They want to see if they can see if someone's out and lost.

[473] Right.

[474] So when volunteers finally are able to walk the trail and it's a six -mile trail, they end up finding Meredith's water bottle, her sunglasses, Ella's leash, and an extendable police baton.

[475] Oh, no. Yeah.

[476] Authorities are then alerted that Meredith's ATM card is being used at Banks miles away, from where she was last seen.

[477] So based on other unsolved murders in Georgia and Florida, a lot of people believe that there could be a serial killer operating in the national parks of both states.

[478] And authorities in North Carolina actually start watching the news about Meredith's disappearance.

[479] So they go wide with this description of the silver -haired man, and it's all on the news.

[480] And the authorities in North Carolina are like, oh, this is interesting because they've recently had a case where an elderly couple who loved hiking also disappeared from a national park.

[481] And this couple was last seen talking to a man with silver hair who was wearing a yellow jacket.

[482] So police end up running the tags on a car that was in the parking lot that had been seen that day.

[483] And they discovered that it's registered to 61 -year -old Gary Hilton.

[484] Gary Hilton is a bearded, silver -haired man known for his violent temper.

[485] and he's also known to often take his dog dandy on walks through the forest.

[486] Oh, God.

[487] So only one day after investigators identified Gary Hilton as a person of interest in Meredith's disappearance, her dog Ella is found alive.

[488] She just walked into a grocery store.

[489] Oh.

[490] And that grocery store was 60 miles away from where Meredith was last seen.

[491] Holy shit.

[492] Yeah.

[493] So now Ella is safely returned to the Emerson family, but there's, of course, still no sign of Meredith.

[494] and police start looking into the background of Gary Hilton.

[495] So Gary was born on November 22nd, 1946 in Atlanta, Georgia.

[496] His parents, William Hilton and Cleo Reynolds actually did not have a happy marriage.

[497] Gary never meets his biological father, partly because his father's away serving in the military when he's actually born.

[498] And then soon after that, Cleo, his mother, discovers that her husband has three other wives.

[499] Oh, shit.

[500] Yeah.

[501] So Cleo leaves her husband.

[502] She takes baby Gary, baby Gary.

[503] And she goes to work selling window coverings, which it involves a lot of traveling.

[504] She has to leave Gary with friends.

[505] And then she finally just starts taking him with her.

[506] And they just, they don't have like a permanent home.

[507] He doesn't go to one school.

[508] They just travel all over while she works.

[509] But when he's a kid, apparently Gary is very good.

[510] He's a good kid.

[511] He's very, very intelligent.

[512] But when he's around eight years old, classic.

[513] Like, this is actually following the classic.

[514] Yeah.

[515] Because also, remember, the Golden State Killer's father had multiple families?

[516] Yeah.

[517] Who was also in the military?

[518] Totally.

[519] There's some weird parallels.

[520] When Gary's eight years old, he gets hit on the head so hard.

[521] And now, if you're squeamish, you're not going to like this next part.

[522] Okay.

[523] He's partially scalped.

[524] Holy shit.

[525] He ends up having to get 200 stitches on his head.

[526] Oh, my God, an eight -year -old.

[527] An eight -year -old.

[528] So then following this, Cleo notices that he's becoming more hyperactive and more impulsive, and he has difficulty focusing.

[529] So it is...

[530] Classic hit in the head.

[531] Classic, the old triangle.

[532] Someone's triangle of something.

[533] The dark triad, it's the dark triad of head injury, wetting the bed, saying things on fire, killing animals.

[534] You know, a triangle.

[535] you know a triangle of like what sounds like five things okay so in 1953 um gary's mother marries an argentinian horse trainer named nilo de bag and they settle in Tampa Florida but as great as it sounds to have an Argentinian horse trainer as your dad yeah this guy has a temper he's overly strict with Gary in a way that Cleo isn't I mean this new man resents their close mother -son relationship The marriage is fraught with conflict.

[536] And in 1958, the family moves to Hyaliyah, Florida.

[537] The tension builds over the next six years.

[538] And then in 1959, 13 -year -old Gary shoots his stepfather.

[539] Oh.

[540] Yeah.

[541] Nilo is only wounded, and he actually declines to press charges against his stepson.

[542] Gary is sent for several months of inpatient psychiatric care, followed by a period in foster care, before returning home to a attend Miami Springs Junior High School.

[543] So he's still a child, basically.

[544] Then when Gary's in his mid -teens, his mom sends him to live with family friends for a couple years.

[545] And then when he gets back, he reports his mother being cold and distant.

[546] Now Gary's failing miserably at school.

[547] He has a short fuse.

[548] Clearly, he's having problems.

[549] So in 1964, 17 -year -old Gary drops out of high school he enlists in the U .S. Army, completes airborne training and gets his GED.

[550] He's stationed in Germany and he's in, I read an article about this weird.

[551] He was in this like group that was doing stuff with nuclear bombs and very high pressure, very kind of scary, a scary reality to be in.

[552] And it's around this time that Gary starts hearing voices and he basically ends up having a full a schizophrenic breakdown, essentially.

[553] They honorably discharge him in 1967, and when he returned to the United States, he comes back with his new German wife.

[554] Her name's Ursula, but their marriage falls apart in a couple years.

[555] In 1969, 22 -year -old Gary marries a woman named Sue, but they divorce in 71.

[556] He gets his chauffeur license in 1970.

[557] He's going to be a chauffeur.

[558] Everything's great.

[559] He's resetting.

[560] He's re -aligning.

[561] He's man. manifesting his destiny, but then in January of 1973, he gets a DUI.

[562] He loses his license for a year, and he never reapplys.

[563] So he's off.

[564] In 1977, Gary marries what would be his third wife, Dina Baugh, who divorces him a year later.

[565] In March of 79, he tries for number four, marrying a woman named Betty Sue Galloway.

[566] She divorces him seven months later.

[567] So they're lasting shorter and shorter period.

[568] he must he's he's actually a on paper technically good looking man oh okay but his temper just probably immediately fucking comes shows up and yeah and drinking and sounds like there's lots of other kind of coping mechanisms so then in the 80s Gary begins his life of crime consistent crime he's arrested in 1982 and charged with arson there's your dark triad hey what's up what's up but he manages just to avoid a conviction, which is interesting.

[569] Then he gets convicted of drug possession, carrying a firearm without a license.

[570] In 1987, he's arrested and pleads guilty for theft and possessing a marijuana.

[571] In 1994, he's charged with and pleads guilty to 21 counts of phone solicitation.

[572] What's that mean?

[573] Hey, ring, ring, hello, hey.

[574] Hey, want to hang out?

[575] Hey, want to hang out and stuff?

[576] No, I'm a cop.

[577] And you're under arrest.

[578] You're under arrest.

[579] Citizens arrest.

[580] Yeah, I don't know what he was doing.

[581] This crime spree continues through the 90s.

[582] He's arrested and pleads guilty to theft and gets 10 years probation in late 1995.

[583] No one's looking at the record.

[584] I don't know.

[585] I don't know how they're making these decisions.

[586] He also gets involved around this time in 1995.

[587] He becomes the, quote, creative consultant, which is a very, interesting angle on a locally produced low budget movie called Deadly Run.

[588] Now, listen to this movie plot.

[589] It's about a man who abducts women and flies them out to a cabin in a remote area where he releases his victims in the forest so he can hunt them down.

[590] You did that story.

[591] Yes, it's the butcher baker.

[592] Holy shit.

[593] In Alaska.

[594] So this serial killer worked on a movie that stole the plot line, which, oh, I didn't look it up, but I don't know if 95, it had already all been processed.

[595] But who's that director that was like, hey, you know who I need to creatively consult on this?

[596] Yeah, you know who knows a lot about murder and torture?

[597] Yeah.

[598] Being a creep in the forest.

[599] Right.

[600] So after this era, Gary starts drifting from place to place and job to job until around 97, where he finally finds steady work with an insulation and siding business in Atlanta.

[601] And he stays there for the next 10 years.

[602] mostly because his boss, a man named John Tabor, also gives him a place to live.

[603] So I think he is finally able to settle down a little bit.

[604] But he has a problem with anger.

[605] And it comes up all the time.

[606] In 2004, the police are called after a man sees him savagely beating a dog in a public park.

[607] And it turns out it is his dog, Dandy, the one who he is known for enjoying taking on walks in the forest.

[608] In 2005, he abandons a van on federal land in White County, Georgia, and doesn't answer a citation for the offense, so a warrant is issued for his arrest in the federal database.

[609] And then in 2007, things sour between Gary and his boss, John Tabor, when Gary threatens to kill John if he doesn't pay him $10 ,000.

[610] So Gary then finds himself not only unemployed but homeless, and he now begins to live.

[611] live out of his van.

[612] And this brings us to 2007.

[613] So now we're going to go to three months before Meredith disappears.

[614] She disappears on New Year's Day of 2008.

[615] Three months before that, on October 21st, 2007, a retired couple named John and Irene Bryant, who were both in their 80s, they decide to go for a hike in the Piscka National Forest.

[616] The Bryant's have been married.

[617] for over 50 years.

[618] They live in Horseshoe, North Carolina, and they love to go hiking together.

[619] On October 21st, they park their maroon, Ford Escape, SUV, at Yellow Gap Road near Route 276, and they never make it back to their vehicle.

[620] So when two weeks pass without any word from the couple, their family reports them missing.

[621] Henderson County Sheriff's Office immediately launches a search that includes a helicopter and cadaver dogs, and as law enforcement combs the brides, Bryant's phone records, a devastating detail emerges.

[622] On the last day, the couple is known to be alive, seen alive.

[623] Irene attempts to call 911 around 4 p .m. from her cell phone, but due to the weak signal in the forest, the call drops and no further calls are made.

[624] Oh, my God, that's terrifying.

[625] Horrifying.

[626] So almost a week after the Bryant's are reported missing, searchers on the Barnett Branch Trail of the forest find the partially clad body of a woman covered in late.

[627] Due to the state of decomposition, they can't tell immediately if it's Irene.

[628] Three days later, an autopsy is conducted, and Irene's identity is confirmed, as is her cause of death.

[629] She has sustained a fractured skull from blunt force trauma.

[630] She's been bludgeon to death.

[631] Her body's only 30 yards away from the couple's vehicle.

[632] John is still missing, her husband John, and the police fear for his welfare, of course.

[633] Since National Forces are classified as federal land, the FBI is immediately called in to this investigation.

[634] They announce a $10 ,000 reward for any information leading to Irene's killer.

[635] And meanwhile, investigators monitoring the Bryant's bank accounts find that the day after the couple disappeared, their ATM card was used to withdraw $300 from an ATM in Ducktown, Tennessee.

[636] So when law enforcement checks the ATM, like the footage around the ATM, they can see this person making the withdrawal is an older Caucasian man, but his face is obstructed by the hood of his rain jacket.

[637] They can't identify him and the case goes cold.

[638] So a little over a month after John and Irene Bryant go missing on December 1, 2007, so the month before Meredith, a 46 -year -old Crawfordville, Florida nurse named Cheryl D. Dunlap, her friends called her Sherry, fails to show up to a dinner date with a friend, and the next day she misses church.

[639] When Cheryl doesn't call or reach out in any way to explain why she wasn't in either of these places, her friends get really worried that this is nothing, like that is absolutely not her character at all, and they report her missing.

[640] Her white Toyota Camry has found abandoned with a flat tire near the entrance to the Appalachicola National Forest.

[641] Upon further inspection, the authorities see that tire had been slashed.

[642] So witnesses report seeing Cheryl reading a book on the boardwalk in the Leon Sinks area of the Appalachicola Forest, and a search party is organized, but no one can find even a sign of Cheryl.

[643] Meanwhile, police detect that her ATM card is being used to make withdrawals in Tallahassee, Florida.

[644] The person making the withdrawals is wearing a rubber mask to obscure his face.

[645] Horrifying.

[646] Then two weeks after that, on December 15th, a hunter named Ronnie Rents is out in the same national forest where Cheryl was, and he finds what he thinks could be a partially eaten animal carcass.

[647] But sadly, upon closer inspection, he sees that it's the decomposing body of a woman, and she's been decapitated, and she's missing her hands.

[648] fuck yes so ronnie immediately reports this to state law enforcement just like with irene bryant authorities have to conduct an autopsy to confirm the victim's identity and when dna results come back the body is identified as charl dunlap the decapitation and removal of her hands were determined to have occurred post -mortem mercifully yeah yeah finally there's a lead investigators announced that they're looking at looking for a white van seen in the area around the time Cheryl disappeared, and the driver could be the same person who used Cheryl's ATM card numerous times in Tallahassee, with trying $700 from her bank account.

[649] So tips start to come in over the next few days with members of the public reporting a man with a dog who seems to be homeless driving a 2001 Chevy Astrovan.

[650] Despite this information, no solid suspect is ever identified, and the authorities assume that this is just a one -off homicide.

[651] So then we're basically back up to the date of Meredith Emerson going missing on New Year's Day 2008.

[652] Her car is found on January 5th.

[653] And two days later, the silver -haired man's description is released to the public.

[654] So Gary's former boss, John Tabor, tips off the police that Gary Hilton could be the man that they're looking for.

[655] Because Gary had just called John and asked him for money, which basically confirmed.

[656] his suspicions that he was, like, on the run and desperate.

[657] Can I say, like, I wonder, I wonder if Meredith ran into him beating up his dog, like he had done in that park that one time and tried to stop him.

[658] Or if he used his dog as a way to be like, look, I'm friendly.

[659] We both have dogs.

[660] Yep.

[661] It's just like, if she's hikes all the time, she's probably aware of her surroundings.

[662] It's just to be like, you know, tricked into being calm with someone.

[663] I mean, it's just so sinister.

[664] I think that's a really good point that you would assume a person with the dog is a better person than your average wandering single man. Yeah.

[665] I think that's true.

[666] When I walk cookie, I don't talk to anyone unless they have a dog in cookies.

[667] Like, I want to meet that dog.

[668] And then we chat, you know, it's.

[669] But I wouldn't do that with just dude fucking walking by.

[670] No way.

[671] no way like hey you want to chat no yeah okay so right after john tabor calls and is like i think this is the name of your guy you should look it up yeah then they get a call saying that gary has been that basically the man that's whose description just went out had been seen at a gas station in coming georgia cleaning his van and throwing items out of the van into a dumpster so someone basically called and said hey that guy you're looking for is basically throwing away all that the evidence and you better get down here.

[672] Oh, my God.

[673] So they did lights and sirens.

[674] They raced down.

[675] Hilton couldn't get away and they arrest him for kidnapping at this gas station.

[676] So inside the dumpster, they find Meredith's wallet, her driver's license, a student ID card, a bloodstained seatbelt, Meredith's bloody clothes, a knife and a sheath, hiking boots, chains, a padlock, gloves, a jacket.

[677] It is like a kill kit and a shit ton of evidence.

[678] Absolutely.

[679] and it's all just right there in this dumpster.

[680] It's like he collected it for them and then was like, here you go.

[681] I'm going to stick it all in this one spot.

[682] Yeah.

[683] There was also a folding police baton and a blue backpack.

[684] In a forensic search of Gary's van, crime scene technicians noticed the vehicle is missing a rear seat belt while the other belts in the car are an exact match to the bloody one that was found in the dumpster.

[685] So he was trying to get her DNA out of the van.

[686] Right.

[687] They're also able to match blood from his astro to Meredith's DNA, items seized from Gary's van also of traces of Cheryl Dunlap's DNA, including two sleeping bags, Gary's duffel bag, and his hiking boot shoelaces.

[688] So four days later on January 9th, investigators find what they believe to be the charred remains of Cheryl Dunlap's head and hands in a fire pit at a campsite seven miles from where her body had been found.

[689] Oh my God.

[690] Yes.

[691] There are cigarette butts, at that site that will later be identified to have Gary's DNA on them.

[692] So basically, very quickly, they're able to link him to these murders.

[693] Right.

[694] These horrifying, like, horrifying murders.

[695] I'm like, were they sexually motivated?

[696] Were they just for robbery?

[697] I mean, it's just mind -boggling.

[698] He raped Meredith.

[699] Nothing was said about that about Cheryl Dunlap.

[700] But he, well, I'll tell you.

[701] all about it.

[702] So the search parties are still calming the National Forest for Meredith.

[703] They don't know.

[704] So now that they have, it all just basically happen at once.

[705] Yeah.

[706] So now the police know it's time.

[707] They have to get a confession from Gary.

[708] And they basically just go in and say, we have all this evidence.

[709] Like, it's over.

[710] And so Gary Hilton agrees to plead guilty to the murder of Meredith Emerson and to reveal the location of her body on the condition that the DA takes the death penalty off the table.

[711] Investigators make that deal, and Gary leads authorities to the Dawson Forest, where they find Meredith's decapitated remains covered by leaves and branches, more than 50 miles away from where she went missing.

[712] Oh, they.

[713] Gary tells investigators that he ambushed Meredith on the hiking trail with a knife, and he kidnapped her to steal her credit cards.

[714] He kept her alive in his van for four days, during which time he raped her repeatedly.

[715] Every time he asked, she gave him the wrong pin number to her bank account.

[716] And eventually, he bludgeoned her in the head with an iron bar.

[717] He strips her body and douses it with bleach.

[718] The autopsy concludes that Meredith was decapitated post -mortem, like Cheryl, with a serrated knife in an attempt to prevent her from being identified.

[719] Gary then put her head in a bag and hit it nearby.

[720] He tells police that he couldn't bring himself to kill Meredith's dog.

[721] Oh, my God.

[722] Wow.

[723] Right?

[724] He also testified that she fought fiercely for her life.

[725] And he also testified he was a piece of shit.

[726] Yeah.

[727] We testified that he.

[728] It's just like, it's that kind of thing where it's just so extreme.

[729] Totally.

[730] This is the difference between someone with a mental illness who's, Knapps quote unquote.

[731] Yeah.

[732] And a serial killer who has an ammo and a plan and a way they do things and all kinds of it's the reason is not credit cards.

[733] Right.

[734] The reason is not credit cards.

[735] Right.

[736] Or even rape, really.

[737] It almost just seems like this need to dominate and murder.

[738] And then it's this weird like, you can go like, well, there, psychopath.

[739] And it's like, well, what, but he won't kill the dog.

[740] It's like there's just a way.

[741] That's a thing that will never be able to.

[742] understand.

[743] Right.

[744] And grasp.

[745] I think fucking God.

[746] Yeah.

[747] So on February 1st, 2008, Gary pleads guilty to Meredith's murder and his sentence to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 30 years.

[748] No, don't do that.

[749] Meredith's parents give emotional statements to the court saying, quote, no punishment for Mr. Hilton is too great.

[750] He should stay alive and slowly rot.

[751] There is no such thing as justice in this case.

[752] Nothing will bring our daughter back.

[753] Two days later on February 3rd, a hunter named Mark Waldrop is out in the Nattahela National Forest in North Carolina.

[754] Mark is hunting just off the Forest Service Road when he comes across a human skull.

[755] He immediately calls the local deputy who arrives on scene and the two men search the immediate area.

[756] About 20 yards from where Mark finds the skull lies a human pelvis and spine.

[757] The remains are sent for testing and two days later, they're confirmed as belonging.

[758] to John Bryant, who had been missing for almost four months.

[759] He died from a gunshot wound to the head.

[760] John's remains are found more than two hours away from his wife Irene's body.

[761] Oh, God.

[762] In March 2008, Gary pleads not guilty to the December 2007 murder of Cheryl Dunlop and is remanded in Florida awaiting trial.

[763] So basically, this all kind of rolls out one on top of the other.

[764] It's very convoluted, and all of the getting moved to different states to face different charges, it basically makes everything take forever.

[765] So if normally, you know, he would be charged with this and then the trial would happen in three months.

[766] It doesn't work that way because there's so much red tape.

[767] And also he's doing these plea deals to not get the death penalty, but then there's some states where you just get the death penalty.

[768] There's no plea deal to be had.

[769] Those plea deals probably take back and forth for months and months themselves and everything.

[770] I think, I mean, I'm a lawyer.

[771] I don't know why we would ever just kind of like hold forth on legal, on the legal timeline of stuff like this.

[772] Our podcast and we sound right.

[773] Oh, that's true.

[774] Okay, so now that they have Gary Hilton in custody, they're starting to realize that he could be responsible for many other unsolved murders that have similar MOs.

[775] There are profilers that come from all across the country to go and sit in all of these trials and these court proceedings so that they can see if they can talk to Gary and see if they can get him to talk about anything.

[776] Because the odds that Gary began kidnapping, raping, and killing people that he just found in the forest when he was 61 years old are incredibly small.

[777] In fact, it's much more likely that since his petty crime spree and then 80s that built into the 90s, he had just been escalating for years and years and years.

[778] Totally.

[779] And of course, there are plenty of cold cases and or just a never reported cases out there.

[780] Authorities find that there are at least four other missing or murder cases that very closely match Gary Hilton's MO.

[781] In September of 2009, Hiker in the Chattahoochee National Forest finds camping equipment believed to be Gary's.

[782] They turn it over to the authorities in Florida who are still prepping their case against him for Cheryl Dunlap's murder.

[783] And in February of 2010, I've heard this story before but I didn't realize it was attached to this case.

[784] A reporter and a crime writer named Fred Rosen, he wrote the book Lobster Boy about Grady Stiles who we covered on this show.

[785] So he submits a formal request to the Georgia Bureau of investigation to access Meredith Emerson's crime scene and autopsy photos, which obviously have not been released to the public.

[786] So basically, Fred Rosen had been following Gary Hilton and had been researching him, and he was going to write a book about him.

[787] But he had a deal to basically have like chapters of the book printed in Hustler magazine before the book came out.

[788] So it was, essentially for Hustler magazine.

[789] They were going to put crime scene and autopsy photos in this story.

[790] Oh, no. Along with the rest of the story.

[791] Don't do that.

[792] I mean, it's, okay, and this is 2010.

[793] Yeah.

[794] Like in the 80s, the early 90s.

[795] This is the difference.

[796] This is the time, this is the cultural difference of back then, this was the kind of thing.

[797] Of course, when Meredith's fan family found out they were horrified and they were they were like you have to do something like this cannot happen well it's the thing that you and i talk about all the time or get asked about all the time in interviews is like why do women like true crime and it's like because it was packaged in this way for men in a fucking hustler magazine of crime scene and autopsy photos of a female victim who has family and friends whose life was brutally taken away it's like that's how it was packaged before.

[798] Now we get to control the narrative.

[799] And that is the most horrendous, upsetting thing I've ever fucking heard happened recently.

[800] There was a whole fight about it.

[801] Of course, it was declined.

[802] And then March 2010, the court issues an order prohibiting the release of any photos of Meredith depicted in the state of undress or dismemberment.

[803] And then very soon after, the Georgia House Governmental Affairs Committee unanimously passes the Meredith Emerson Memorial Privacy Act, which prevents graphic crime scene photos from being publicly released or distributed.

[804] Good.

[805] Which is, thank fucking God.

[806] But also, when those decisions came down, and this is a straight lift from Wikipedia, please go give them $5 right now.

[807] They need your help.

[808] The article says, quote, Hustler's response was through an email and that said, quote, Hustler is aware of the GBI's refusal to honor its reporter's request for copies of the Emerson crime scene photos, which were to be used in a news story about this crime.

[809] Hustler and Mr. Flint disagree with the GBI's position and are currently exploring all legal options available to them should the decision be made to go forward with the story.

[810] So they're basically saying, like, we reserves a right to do this.

[811] Yeah, we disagree with this unanimous verdict about how fucked up it is.

[812] And it was 10 years ago.

[813] So Gary's trial for Cheryl Dunlap's murder began in February 2011 after significant delays caused by arguments over which evidence would be admissible because ultimately the prosecution, they were prevented from presenting any evidence relating to Meredith Emerson's murder or mentioning Gary being the alleged killer of John and Irene Bryant.

[814] So they had to like block all that off.

[815] And I'm sure they were arguing that all of that was.

[816] prejudicial.

[817] What the court does here is how Gary Hilton abducted Cheryl Dunlop from the Leon Sinks geological area held her for two days, after which he killed and decapitated and partially dismembered her.

[818] He also attempted to burn her body parts, then basically dumped the rest of the remains in the forest.

[819] He is ultimately found guilty of three of the four charges, and the jury unanimously recommends the death penalty.

[820] So on April 21st, 2011, Gary Hilton is sentenced to death in the state of Florida.

[821] And then in March of 2012, Gary again faces trial this time in federal court in North Carolina for the kidnapping robbery and murders of John and Irene Bryant.

[822] He initially tries to plead not guilty, but as with Meredith Emerson's case, he strikes a plea deal.

[823] He admits to killing the Bryant's pleading guilty to robbery and firearm offenses in return for being sentenced to a second additional life term without the chance of parole.

[824] Gary explains that he killed Irene immediately before abducting John in order to obtain their banking details.

[825] Gary then shoots John in the head before dumping his body in the forest.

[826] So this is where the court learns that after Gary murdered the Bryant's, he drives them from North Carolina to Georgia and then once there, he gets caught camping on private property.

[827] And so the police are called and they go there to talk to him.

[828] But authorities are only required to run his license against the state database, not a federal one.

[829] Oh, no. So that outstanding federal arrest warrant from 2005 doesn't show up.

[830] I very.

[831] And Gary is let go with a warning.

[832] and he continues on to Florida where he kills Cheryl Dunlop.

[833] So sadly, that could have been prevented if, but there was no, there's no systems and place to check federal warrants.

[834] Right.

[835] That's just sad.

[836] It's just like a sad.

[837] Yeah.

[838] In January 2016, the statute covering Florida's death penalty is struck down by the U .S. Supreme Court.

[839] All Florida executions are put on hold.

[840] Ten months later, the Florida Supreme Court reverses that decision.

[841] so Gary stays on death row.

[842] He remains there to this day at Union Correctional Institution.

[843] Fred Rosen did publish a book in 2011 called Trails of Death, The True Story of National Forest Serial Killer, Gary Hilton.

[844] And there's also a dateline episode called Mystery on Blood Mountain.

[845] And that is the shocking and horrifying story of Gary Hilton, the National Forest serial killer.

[846] Wow.

[847] Wow.

[848] I mean, there has to be more victims.

[849] So I was going to say how shocking is as such a small amount of victims, but it's like, because that's just all that's happened.

[850] Like that's all that's come to light so far.

[851] Correct.

[852] I mean, that's it.

[853] You got to figure it's tip of the iceberg.

[854] With the level of the level of kind of mutilating of the victim's bodies.

[855] Like he was clearly used to.

[856] My sources for this story today are an article by John Austendorf from the Asheville Citizen Times, an article by Nick Corbett in the Tallahassee Democrat, an article from the Atlanta Constitution by Tim Eberley and George Cheedy, an article from the Asheville Citizen Times by Mike McWilliams, WCTV article by Julie Montanero, and, of course, both the Wikipedia, Gary Hilton page and the murderpeda Gary Hilton page.

[857] Wow.

[858] Fucked up story.

[859] Great job telling it.

[860] Really awful.

[861] I feel like I haven't done one of those super rough stero killer stories in a while.

[862] All right.

[863] Great job.

[864] Thank you.

[865] My story today is one that I always see, you know, late night on Reddit.

[866] The Unsolved stories with these creepy, you know, possible red herrings or what could have happened or what detail in here is most important and there's just so much going on that you can't really figure out like what means something and what doesn't and it's always fascinated to me so today i'm going to talk about the bizarre 1997 disappearance and death of judy smith yeah connection to your story the sources used in today's episode are a medium article written by cat lee a news .com A .U article by Marnie O 'Neill, an episode of Unsolved Mysteries, to My City Paper articles by Frank Lewis and then another one by Frank Lewis and Howard Altman, a Philadelphia City paper article by Howard Altman, as well as Reddit and Wikipedia.

[867] In 1986, 40 -year -old Judith Lois Bradford, known as Judy, was working as a home health care nurse just outside of Boston, so she'd go to, you know, take care of patients in their home.

[868] She had had two unhappy failed marriages behind her, which left her as a single mother of two.

[869] And so having to fend for herself, she put herself through nursing school while working at the same time to support her kids.

[870] She was kind and caring, and at this time, she was currently taking care of an elderly man who was recovering from surgery.

[871] And it's there that she meets the man's son, Jeffrey Smith.

[872] So Jeff is an attorney.

[873] Bernie from Boston.

[874] He also happens to be a single father, and he and Judy hit it off, which is like such a nice meet cute, right?

[875] Yeah, it is.

[876] You know, he's touched by how well she cares for his father.

[877] She's an incredible nurse, everyone says.

[878] And so Jeff asks Judy out, they fall in love, and they're together for 10 years before marrying in 1996.

[879] So here we are, April 9, 1997.

[880] They're married, and they're planning a trip to Philadelphia.

[881] so that Jeff, who has experience in health law, can attend the Northeast Pharmaceutical Conference, which, Karen, you and I know is the sexiest, most debauchous conference in the pharmaceutical world.

[882] How many of those little black roller suitcases get thrown onto beds and opened up with, like, what pills do you want?

[883] Yeah, pills and thrills.

[884] It's all there at the Northeast Pharmaceutical Conference.

[885] Hell yeah.

[886] Great talks, even better pills.

[887] So the couple plan on going after the conference to see friends in New Jersey and make a little vacay out of it.

[888] So that morning when they're supposed to leave, Jeff and Judy arrive at Boston's Logan International Airport for their 1 .30 flight.

[889] But once they get there, and this is fucking happened to all of us, Judy realizes she left her driver's license at home.

[890] So she's like, shit, okay, well, Jeff has a meeting that afternoon in Philadelphia.

[891] So she's like, you go on on our scheduled flight.

[892] I'm going to run home and get my license.

[893] I'll meet you that afternoon or that evening after your conference.

[894] So if she does, she catches the 7 .30 p .m. flight, then taxis into the double tree hotel.

[895] She grabs flowers on the way to give to him to apologize for fucking up the flight or whatever, which is like door.

[896] Like they're cute.

[897] They're like a cute couple.

[898] Everyone loves them.

[899] All is well between the couple.

[900] They go to their room that evening and discuss what's going to happen the next day.

[901] So Judy has nothing to do with this crazy, sexy conference.

[902] So she's like, well, I've never been to Philadelphia.

[903] I'm going to go see some sites.

[904] She wants to see the Liberty Bell and Independence Hall.

[905] You know, she's into touristy stuff.

[906] Jeff thinks Judy's plan is great.

[907] According to Medium Quote, he's not worried about his wife wandering around the unfamiliar place by herself.

[908] As she's an experienced traveler, she had once taken her children to Europe for several weeks and had traveled to Thailand by herself to visit the family of a former patient.

[909] So she's fucking got her shit together when it comes to traveling.

[910] Yeah, she knows how to travel.

[911] That's right.

[912] Before going to bed, Jeff and Judy, they make plans for the next day after Judy's done traveling and Jeff is done conferencing to meet back at the hotel at 5 .30 so they can get ready and go to the cocktail party at 6 o 'clock that night.

[913] So the next morning, April 10th, Judy sleeps in.

[914] Jeff gets ready to go to the conference.

[915] They have acute exchange, all as well, and Jeff heads out.

[916] So then he gets back at around 5 p .m. after moderating the final session for that day, he shows up to the hotel.

[917] She isn't there.

[918] 5 .30 comes and goes, and she still hasn't arrived, and he's like, well, maybe she's down at the cocktail party and just didn't understand our plans, goes down there.

[919] She's not there.

[920] And then for the next, like, 45 minutes kind of goes back and forth, trying to figure out if he's missing her, where is she?

[921] And around that time, Jeff asked the concierge to call the local hospitals, but there's no sign of her next, still not being able to find her.

[922] Jeff hires a taxi to drive him around the city to follow the path of the tour bus that she was supposed to take that day.

[923] Still doesn't find anything.

[924] And he's like, so maddening.

[925] I know.

[926] And he was like, the taxi driver was so mad at me. I was making him go super slow so I could see exactly what's happening.

[927] people were honking behind us, I didn't care.

[928] You know, he's like, what is happening?

[929] Yeah.

[930] What do you do?

[931] Like, he's, that's the part before you're calling the cops because you're like, I don't want it to be a thing where the cops have to be involved yet.

[932] I'm going to keep trying.

[933] Or like, maybe I misunderstood this.

[934] Maybe she misunderstood what time we're supposed to meet, where we're supposed to meet.

[935] Maybe I did.

[936] Like, it's all going to become clear and funny in a minute, but it's not.

[937] Yeah.

[938] Yeah.

[939] He calls Judy's children to let them know what's going on.

[940] He even was like, go check our, you know, message machine back at home to see if she left a message because there's no cell phones, of course, there's nothing there.

[941] And so finally, he goes to the police to report her missing.

[942] And they are, of course, like, you have to wait 24 hours.

[943] Yeah.

[944] But luckily, he knows some high profile people in the city, this conference thing and law thing helps them out.

[945] And so they're like, okay, come back in the morning and we'll file a report.

[946] And he tells them there's no way Judy was kidnapped off the street without someone noticing because she would have caused a scene.

[947] Judy's son Craig later tells police quote She's the most difficult person To try to embarrass in public If she doesn't like something, she is yelling But also Jeff doesn't think that Judy disappeared on her own terms Last he knew she was carrying No more than $200 cash She had left $500 in the hotel room She hadn't used her credit card, her bank account Or a phone charge card And in the beginning Police in Philadelphia don't take Jeff seriously.

[948] They suggest she disappeared on her own.

[949] Maybe she's having a midlife crisis.

[950] They say at the time, Jeff feels like the police of the mindset that, quote, women sometimes do these crazy things.

[951] Like basically, she's like, woo, I'm out of here.

[952] You know, I need some time alone.

[953] Sure.

[954] You'd travel to a completely different city to then just go off on your own.

[955] Right.

[956] And you're happy marriage with your kids who love you and don't tell anyone and just wander the fuck away.

[957] Yeah.

[958] Within a few days of her disappearance, one detective even tells the Boston Globe that while Judy, quote, does not seem the type of person to just disappear.

[959] It's, quote, not uncommon for a person of this age to have a midlife crisis and disappear for a few days just to see if anyone misses them.

[960] You know women in menopause.

[961] Sorry, what year is this?

[962] This is 1997.

[963] Jesus fucking Christ.

[964] You know women when they're getting their period is essentially what he's saying.

[965] Women get all periody and naggy and like, does anyone love me?

[966] You know how we do that.

[967] It's just you can't, especially in, you know, these stories that we read or whatever, it's like the sooner you hire women to even out that overriding male thinking.

[968] Right.

[969] It's that thing where women at least go, yeah, I don't know what that guy's thinking.

[970] I don't understand.

[971] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[972] I'm confused and I wouldn't.

[973] Men are just, like, going to hold forth and tell you exactly what's happening and why.

[974] And don't worry, nothing's going on because I know what this middle -aged woman is doing and thinking.

[975] I learned a 1960s cigarettes ad that when women get PMS, they get real mad and I still believe it here in 1997.

[976] Like, it's just some, yeah.

[977] It's old and weird, and it has nothing to do with, like, sports, so they just don't care.

[978] It's just fucking insane.

[979] Anyway, yeah, it's just irritating to hear it over and over again.

[980] It's irritating.

[981] Right, especially knowing that that wasn't the case.

[982] Yeah, because you're opening the door to be wrong in this way that you're being condescending, you're being illogical, and you're wrong.

[983] And now you're a bad cop or detective.

[984] All right.

[985] But with no sign of Judy, the midlife crisis theory goes away.

[986] And detectives, of course, start to investigate Jeff.

[987] the husband even though he was at the conference when she disappeared he's their number one suspect which is understandable looking at the husband everyone does it fine yeah yeah he's lucky he was at that conference with like he a hundred witnesses that were just like yep all day long we saw him all day long debauchery all day long detective searched jeff and judy's hotel room detectives start to think that judy was never even in the hotel room because the clothes left behind didn't look worn at all meaning she must have left the hotel room in the same outfit she'd worn the day before.

[988] Hi, Karen.

[989] Do you know how many days in a row I wear the same fucking outfit?

[990] And I'm not at a hotel in my home.

[991] But it's like if you're, if you've got some loose travel pants that you didn't get anything on on the flight up or down or wherever you went.

[992] Yeah.

[993] Or they just don't notice maybe she folded her shirt that was from the day before back up and put it in the suitcase.

[994] Do you know how many adorable like weather and area appropriate vintage dresses I bring you do know because you've traveled with me a lot I do actually yeah that do not even come out of my fucking suitcase the entire there and I wear what are they called tight jeans and a t -shirt the entire time why would I get an address I like that you're saying weather appropriate when I saw you in Washington DC in the thinnest like trench coat a raincoat no it's really weird though and it was sub -zero and I was like you're going going to die here.

[995] How cute did I look?

[996] It was vintage.

[997] I looked like Carmen San Diego.

[998] It was fucking adorable.

[999] You look like Carmen San Diego went to Antarctica.

[1000] Thank you.

[1001] Also, there's no cosmetics in the room.

[1002] So they're like, there wasn't a woman in here.

[1003] Jesus Christ.

[1004] Like, come on, man. They're in her purse.

[1005] What the fuck are you talking about?

[1006] Or she doesn't wear them.

[1007] She's 50 -something.

[1008] She's a casual lady.

[1009] her purse is her signature red backpack that's what she wears around town she's a nickname for her backpack she wears it so often maybe she doesn't care about makeup it's all in there but also how long are they staying it's the weekend right so you're not bringing you know you're gonna wash her hair with the hotel shampoo like it's shit like this they don't know it's like oh yeah the less i carry the better yeah that's that's how that's good traveling and if she's good at traveling or not every woman wants fucking wing tips on their eyes and fucking red lipstick, you know?

[1010] All right.

[1011] So they start to believe that Judy never even made it to Philadelphia.

[1012] Like the whole story of her losing her ID on the way, forgetting it is like a made -up thing too.

[1013] But Judy's two adult children tell detectives that what they found in the hotel room is totally typical of their mom.

[1014] And they also don't think Jeff is responsible because Judy, quote, loves Jeff and the pair get along very well.

[1015] Still thinking that Jeff is involved, though, they ask him to take a light of time.

[1016] detector test.

[1017] Police say he refuses.

[1018] And then Jeff's like, actually, I said I want the FBI to administer the test.

[1019] Otherwise, I wouldn't take it.

[1020] And they said no. So he declined.

[1021] So you got to check details, people.

[1022] Yeah.

[1023] Trying to narrow down the last time anyone saw Judy, detectives talked to possible witnesses.

[1024] So based on these conversations, here's what we know about what Judy was up to after Jeff left that morning for the conference.

[1025] A couple of people in the, The lobby had seen her, and they also confirmed with the driver of the sightseeing bus that Judy had been on it that day.

[1026] She had hit different tourist attractions and then got off the bus near the Double Tree Hotel later.

[1027] At around 3 p .m. on the day of her disappearance, a witness near the hotel said they saw Judy acting, quote, disoriented.

[1028] During all of these sightings, Judy was wearing a dark coat, jeans, white sneakers, and that signature red backpack that she always wore.

[1029] police received many other tips, including the day after her disappearance, Judy was seen in the Depthford Mall Macy's in New Jersey.

[1030] A salesperson and a customer both described Judy to a tea, including her red backpack.

[1031] They told investigators that Judy said she was shopping for dresses for her daughter, who never liked any of the clothes she picked out, that she said specifically.

[1032] According to Medium, the customer and salespeople said Judy was acting strangely and seemed unstable.

[1033] As she left, quote, she tried to get a younger woman to leave with her.

[1034] She seemed to think that the woman next to her was her daughter.

[1035] So there's some disorientation going on.

[1036] Judy's family believes that the Macy's sighting is credible, especially since Judy was known to buy clothes for her daughter, and there's also an hourly bus that runs from Philadelphia to that mall, not that weird that she would have been there.

[1037] However, Jeff can't figure out why she would go there.

[1038] The only thing he could think of is that she was suffering from a dissociative disorder like amnesia, and that's why the witnesses maybe thought she was disoriented and unstable.

[1039] Numerous people reported seeing Judy at Penn's Landing in Philadelphia.

[1040] They realized that the sightings might have been of an unhoused woman in that area who looks like Judy.

[1041] So when officers show pictures of Judy to people around that area, an unhoused man named David says that he for sure saw Judy.

[1042] he knows the woman that they're referring to and it was not it was not the same person the person he saw was judy and he says judy slept on a bench near him one night and in the morning he tried to buy her coffee david's citing is the last even remotely reliable tip for months so jeff stays in philadelphia for as long as he can searching for his wife he puts up flyers speaks to the media but there's just absolutely no sign of her so he goes back to boston and of course doesn't give up.

[1043] For months, he faxes and emails thousands of flyers all over the country.

[1044] He talks to reporters as much as he can.

[1045] He tries his hardest to get the FBI involved and then that doesn't work.

[1046] So he hires three different private investigators and then none of them find anything of importance.

[1047] It's got to be so scary to know that your loved one didn't go away backup information to suggest that, which means if those sightings are real, they did so either by force or in a state that they're not aware of.

[1048] It's got to be so much scarier than any little evidence that they left you.

[1049] It's almost like you want some evidence that they didn't want to be there anymore and voluntarily left, you know?

[1050] Because yeah, then they are in charge and they're empowered.

[1051] But this idea that something happened to her state of mind and that she was doing all of these things because how easy would it be to kind of weirdly get herded onto a bus?

[1052] Right.

[1053] And now I can't remember this could have happened to someone in our family.

[1054] It also could have happened in a story someone in my family told me about like a way out person.

[1055] But someone was in like Europe where the cars go the other way and they got hit in the head by a truck mirror because they were looking the wrong way up the street and then they were gone and in the hospital and had amnesia and didn't know who they were and had beard off the street like if she just had you know if she had a stroke and suddenly she was yeah yeah she wasn't in charge of herself in the normal way right so scary it's awful or that happened and then you know these touristy areas like fucking hollywood boulevard where it's like hey let me show you let me i'll give you a private tour of the area yep or you know anything like that it's like something could have happened and or she could have trusted the wrong person.

[1056] Yeah.

[1057] And something nefarious could have happened.

[1058] But either way, I mean, it's just got to be terrifying to have to go back home.

[1059] Knowing she slept on a bench one night, like knowing that she's kind of out there.

[1060] It's not the same person.

[1061] Yeah, something was going on.

[1062] So then on September 7, 1997, a tragic break in the case finally comes.

[1063] The father and son are out deer hunting on the Mount Pisgah in North Carolina.

[1064] They're out deer hunting.

[1065] They find a few scattered bones.

[1066] They think they look human.

[1067] And so when they take a closer look, they find a partially buried skeleton in a shallow grave near the Stony Point Picnic Area.

[1068] Body is wrapped in a blue blanket and the remains are still dressed in thermal underwear, a bra, jeans, and hiking boots.

[1069] And the father and son call the police.

[1070] During their search of the scene, the police find multiple items in a few holes near the remains.

[1071] See, this is what's so weird about this part, too.

[1072] Another, like, what does it mean in the story?

[1073] Is they're buried, which means someone else buried?

[1074] Someone buried them.

[1075] It's not like someone collapsed and all their stuff is there.

[1076] Even the partial skeleton has been buried.

[1077] Yep.

[1078] They find a blue vinyl backpack with winter clothing and $80 inside, a shirt with $87 in the pocket, and a pair of sunglasses, so obviously that's not the red backpack, and that's not found at all.

[1079] Police can't find a wallet or ID, but the victim still has their wedding ring on their finger.

[1080] The skeletal remains are examined by a coroner who determines they belong to a white woman in the late 40s to mid -50s, and that the victim suffered from chronic arthritis in the left knee and underwent extensive dental work.

[1081] A cause of death can't be certain, but due to puncture wounds and cuts on her brinkets, on her it appears that the weapon had been stabbed.

[1082] Basically, the Asheville Citizen Times run a story about the skeletal remains found an emergency room doctor in Franklin, North Carolina, or sees it, and they had seen one of the posters that Jeff had sent out all over.

[1083] So luckily, they were able to realize that this person was Judy Smith, based on her extensive dental records.

[1084] When Judy's family has shown photos of the clothes that were found on Judy's remains, none of her family numbers recognize them.

[1085] They don't recognize the items in the holes near her body.

[1086] You know, the only thing that they recognize is that the wedding ring is hers.

[1087] Oh.

[1088] I know.

[1089] There are some people that are like maybe it's just misidentified.

[1090] It was 1997.

[1091] I don't think there was a DNA test done.

[1092] But there was a really extensive dental work done on Judy and on the skeletal remains.

[1093] So they were able to match those.

[1094] And also the arthritis and also the wedding ring, but it's still like, wouldn't it be great to have a DNA match as well.

[1095] We don't have it.

[1096] But her family, though.

[1097] Her family thinks it's her.

[1098] The dental match is the old DNA.

[1099] And that's, you know, pretty specific.

[1100] So investigators asked Judy's family if they can think of a reason she'd be in North Carolina, which is 600 miles from Philadelphia, where she had last been positively identified.

[1101] According to my city paper, quote, to Jeff's knowledge, she had no friends or relatives in that region.

[1102] Her only connections, he says, were a week -long trip to Rally Durham to visit Jeffrey at a weight loss facility several years earlier and a drive to Tennessee or Virginia.

[1103] They couldn't remember which with a patient of Judy's who wanted to visit relatives there.

[1104] So she has no ties to the area and no reason to be there.

[1105] Authorities start investigating Judy's murder.

[1106] They have multiple questions to answer, like, how did she even end up in North Carolina?

[1107] why was she wearing hiking clothes and of course who killed her?

[1108] They know for sure at this point that Jeff didn't kill her.

[1109] It was known where he was this entire time.

[1110] They know it's not Jeff at this point.

[1111] Yeah.

[1112] Detectives go to the nearby town of Asheville, North Carolina, hoping to speak with people who may have seen her around the mountain.

[1113] A clerk named Joanne tells police that in mid -April she was in Asheville and they had a friendly conversation or Judy said she decided to visit Asheville while her lawyer husband attended a conference in Philadelphia.

[1114] So she's not totally, if she did have amnesia, it wasn't, she had some details or like a stroke.

[1115] It would still make sense that little blips are firing if she had a stroke, right?

[1116] Yes, for sure.

[1117] A stroke is a, seems to me, from the little I know and a couple people I know who have had strokes, it's a physical problem that then, you know, you kind of come back from.

[1118] but like I but her like freely walking around they would have said you know half of her face had lost you know what I mean like there's that there's different signs that people have had strokes that like EMTs especially can recognize where like slurred speech you know part of your face going slack there's different things where she wouldn't have just been walking around seeming like a lady that's erratic at Macy's right they would have been like oh I recognize this is what's going on right because there's there are more physical manifestations i guess is what i'm saying as opposed to i'm just trying to think of and make up reasons where it's that partial like she kind of knows what she's doing but she kind of doesn't yeah which is like what would that be a blood clot a small aneurism or like how or she got hit in the head and kind of came to or like came back and was like i'm fine but what really wasn't fine yeah you know what it kind of reminds it reminds me of in a way although clearly like two totally different stories is what happened to Aunt Diane that documentary where she just completely changed personalities 100 % and did something totally seemingly out of character but maybe it wasn't we just didn't know about her real character you know all these little things right it's like it reminds me of that or it's like what happened in this person's head and why in the circumstances that led up to these tragic events And how little we know other people, even people like our parents or our siblings, people we think we know so well where if something like this went on and then people were just informing you about what they were doing and you just be like, I don't understand any of it.

[1119] It's so bewildering.

[1120] And then it makes you also wonder like that the driver's license, forgetting the driver's license, if it was, did that have something to do with it?

[1121] And we just don't understand.

[1122] Like, did she actually have plans?

[1123] and she needed to go back home by herself to fix some issues.

[1124] Ooh, I see.

[1125] You know what I mean?

[1126] Like that was just an excuse so she wouldn't have to fly at the exact same time because something else is going on.

[1127] Or she could go home and pack something different that he would have noticed or changed something at home.

[1128] Or if she normally would have never done something like, because forgetting your driver's license is weird, it means it's outside your wallet.

[1129] Well, they talk about that too.

[1130] I agree.

[1131] Well, here's the thing, though, is it was just the beginning of when you had to have an ID to get on a plane.

[1132] So her forgetting it wasn't that weird.

[1133] However, I carry my ID with me everywhere I fucking go, right?

[1134] However, moms love gigantic three -fold wallets with checkbooks and pens and all kinds of like, that's to me, and maybe that's just like how I was raised but my mom always had like a billfold style like all kinds of things but like you wouldn't your ID goes right in the in the part with the little window right it's always there so to me like a free floating single just an ID that on the counter is very like I'm in college and I'm making dumb decisions and grabbing my ID and putting in my back pocket I'm bringing a clutch out tonight with me because it's cute and goes with my outfit and I forgot to take my ID out of my clutch and put it in my billfold the next day.

[1135] Yeah, it's, moms are billfold based.

[1136] Mom, we're using them.

[1137] Mom don't do cute clutches and and fucking, and fucking, and fucking, the average mom, maybe we should say.

[1138] Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[1139] I think we're thinking of our moms in the 80s.

[1140] My mom would never let anyone touch or look at her driver's license, much less having outside of her wallet.

[1141] Remember we trying to go through her mom's purse to get a thing and she just, like her hair would stand up on end and she, my mom would say, stop Roycecomottering my purse.

[1142] He gets so mad that she'd use a Yiddish word, which she knew, Roosca muttering.

[1143] Stop Rooscomotering my purse.

[1144] That means like fucking with, you know?

[1145] Mom uses Yiddish words to yell at you.

[1146] You're in big trouble.

[1147] See, I think I was much more devious because I knew, like, you had to get money for the candy.

[1148] Yeah.

[1149] That we were going to go get at the store every single day.

[1150] You had to, like, pickpocket at least 75 cents out of your mom's wallet in some way.

[1151] So you had to be careful, be real quiet.

[1152] You had to plan it ahead.

[1153] There's a lot of devious behavior.

[1154] The sister would have to distract her with a dumb question that mom knew was bullshit.

[1155] Oh, my God.

[1156] Bring her up the hallway so that I can get my Snickers money.

[1157] Hey, mom.

[1158] Hey, mom, can I ask you a question?

[1159] Going back to this chick said she didn't, Judy didn't see.

[1160] seemed disoriented or unstable.

[1161] She seemed perfectly normal when she saw her in, in Asheville.

[1162] So there are numerous other people who saw Judy in Asheville, including a hotel clerk who says Judy stayed at the hotel from April 10th, the second, and other seemingly credible sightings.

[1163] And we know that eyewitness statements and sightings are always under, you know, scrutiny because it's so hard to tell.

[1164] But I think there's little details in each of them.

[1165] And there's enough in this one.

[1166] small area that are credible, that it does seem like it was her.

[1167] I mean, I'll say this, it makes me feel relieved if she in the beginning was sleeping on benches, but she got it together enough to get some cash and get a hotel.

[1168] At least she was indoors.

[1169] Yeah, yeah.

[1170] So where did she get that cash?

[1171] And there was another setting of her with a car.

[1172] And there was cash on her.

[1173] Yeah, and there was cash on her, yeah.

[1174] Yeah.

[1175] In the end, investigators aren't able to answer any of their questions.

[1176] They have no idea why Judy was in North Carolina or how she got there and they don't know why she was wearing hiking clothes.

[1177] It does seem like she hiked up there by herself on her own accord because it was a kind of, you know, up a hill remote area.

[1178] If someone had killed her, they wouldn't have brought her to that area.

[1179] You know, how they say like murderers don't carry their victims uphill after they're dead.

[1180] It's just not a thing.

[1181] Right.

[1182] Yeah.

[1183] So they have no idea who killed her.

[1184] they have a ton of theories like we discussed and sheriff bobby metford's theory is that judy wanted some time away from jeff or she wanted to completely start uh her life over by disappearing which who the fuck it could be true who knows doesn't seem possible could be i don't think a mother would just abandon her kids without a word like that you know also she's being an in -home care nurse those are some of the most like caring considerate people there are so I would think she would be like if that were the case she would sit everybody down and be like guys I got it I got to go for a while the idea that you would do it and just leave everybody in the lurch and scared to death doesn't track with at least what I know from you telling me and you know at some point while doing either one of these things disappearing on purpose or something going wrong she was murdered we don't know by who one of the theories is that Judy was murdered by none other than serial killer Gary Michael Hilton the...

[1185] Say it again?

[1186] The National Forest Serial Killer.

[1187] Tie -ins.

[1188] We love them.

[1189] One of his victims was found around 10 miles from where Judy's body was buried.

[1190] Oh.

[1191] But this is 1997, so it totally fits with your theory 10 years later.

[1192] She was an early victim.

[1193] Yes.

[1194] Judy was early.

[1195] Exactly.

[1196] On the timeline.

[1197] Wow.

[1198] Authorities and investigated this possible connection, but we're unable to find anything linking Hilton to Judy's murder, but fucking stranger things, man. Sadly, Jeff Smith passed away in 2005, never knowing what happened to his beloved wife.

[1199] And as of today, no one knows how Judy ended up in North Carolina or who killed her.

[1200] And that is the mysterious disappearance and murder of Judy Smith.

[1201] what a horrible, horrible way to lose your mom.

[1202] I was thinking the same thing.

[1203] I didn't put their names in the story, obviously, and I couldn't find anything about them, but heartbreaking, heart -fucking breaking.

[1204] Yeah.

[1205] And also just right when she finds new love and everything's kind of going great, that's the other part that doesn't track.

[1206] It's not like her and Jeff were married for 40 years, and she was like, enough of this already.

[1207] Totally.

[1208] It seemed like that part doesn't, Yeah.

[1209] They were going on this trip.

[1210] If you're in an unhappy marriage, you don't go to his boring -ass conference.

[1211] You're like, I'm great.

[1212] I'm going to stay home.

[1213] Yes, that's correct.

[1214] Like, she's like, I'll come with you.

[1215] We can hang out at night.

[1216] And then after we can go visit our friends in New Jersey.

[1217] Like, that's a fucking happy couple.

[1218] You know, in my mind, at least, you know what I mean?

[1219] Yes.

[1220] If I go with Vince to fucking WrestleMania, just so like I can hang out all day and I'll meet up with him later, that's, I didn't do that last weekend.

[1221] But we're still in love.

[1222] And that is a very loving.

[1223] But there's so many WrestleMania's in the future, and there have been so many in the past.

[1224] The point is, like, that's devotion.

[1225] You know what I mean?

[1226] It's true.

[1227] Yes.

[1228] Well, and it's also being up for, yeah, you're there for the hang because that's the person you want to hang out with the most.

[1229] So it's not that idea.

[1230] That's a really good point of, like, if that whole thing of this is, I need to get away, she had the opportunity to get away when he was going away that weekend.

[1231] That's exactly right.

[1232] She should have kind of be like, bye, have fun.

[1233] Close the door, pack your shit.

[1234] Get the fuck out of there.

[1235] Yes.

[1236] You're totally right.

[1237] Yes.

[1238] There's lots of steps in between where, and this is why I hate cold cases.

[1239] I know.

[1240] Because it's all theory.

[1241] And then hopefully in some amount of years, there will be something that comes up.

[1242] But that idea that you just have to kind of live in this, the weirdest story ever that ended in murder.

[1243] It ended in murder.

[1244] It did.

[1245] And there's so many, and this is what these stories that keep me up all night on Reddit is the like, what do you think are a lot of these threads are what do you think is a red herring in a cold case that everyone focuses on that has nothing to do with it?

[1246] And it's like, is it the red backpack?

[1247] Is it that she forgot her ID and had to go home?

[1248] Is it that there were these sightings that, you know, that they thought they were her and they weren't.

[1249] It has nothing to do with her case.

[1250] Like what are those stories?

[1251] And like same with, you know, Jean Bonnet where it's like which one of these points are a red herring?

[1252] is it the DNA?

[1253] Is it the this?

[1254] It's just like, that's why I'm obsessed with these cases.

[1255] And I know you hate, the exact reason you hate them is I just like can't look away.

[1256] I have to obsess about them.

[1257] Yeah, I get that.

[1258] I guess I just, it feels like especially that story, it's just so heartbreaking that it feels like, But if this were a just world we'd live in, this would get solved or this would get someone would figure something out.

[1259] It's tragic.

[1260] It's really fascinating, though, that it's connected to the early days of Gary Michael Hilton where he was, and he's still alive.

[1261] So he could actually come forward and be like, I've got information.

[1262] Why not?

[1263] Come on.

[1264] He's got like 16 life sentences.

[1265] He's not going anywhere.

[1266] Let some people off the hook.

[1267] but this is what you and I've talked about of like if you take anything any secrets to the grave with you you're a fucking asshole like just let everyone know your secrets before you die just like get it out there or you're an asshole yeah I mean he's clearly an asshole but good well good story thank you yeah all right well thanks everybody for listening yeah and being here with us hopefully everything's going good with you we're thinking about you and wishing you well okay no okay Aunt Georgia.

[1268] Thinking of you, honey.

[1269] Thinking of you, sweetie.

[1270] Now, take your ID and zip it in your pocket, please.

[1271] Careful.

[1272] Oh.

[1273] Nobody hold loose IDs.

[1274] That's just silly.

[1275] Back pocket is not a good place for an ID.

[1276] Inside your phone case, if you, for some reason, it's loose.

[1277] Put it in, put it into the phone case and lock it back down.

[1278] All these gen Zias are like, Grandma, we fucking know where to put our ID.

[1279] They're like, yeah, that's okay.

[1280] We don't like help.

[1281] Gen Z. Fine, then just stay sexy.

[1282] And don't get murdered.

[1283] Goodbye.

[1284] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1285] This has been an exactly right production.

[1286] Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Kreiton.

[1287] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1288] This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris.

[1289] Our researchers are Gemma Harris and Haley Gray.

[1290] Email your hometowns and fucking hoorays to my favorite murder at gmail .com.

[1291] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook.

[1292] at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[1293] Listen, follow, and leave us a review on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1294] And don't forget, you can listen to new episodes one week early on Amazon Music or early and ad -free by subscribing to Wondry Plus in the Wondry app.

[1295] Goodbye.

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