431 - Let Me Explain Nothing

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That is Georgia Hardstark.

[3] That is Karen Kilgareff.

[4] And here we go, a podcasting.

[5] Here we go again and again.

[6] On our own.

[7] For eight and a half years.

[8] How is your day?

[9] My day, like my actual day?

[10] It was fine.

[11] No, thank you for asking.

[12] It was fine.

[13] How was yours?

[14] Oh, thank you for us.

[15] I don't know what temperature I am.

[16] I said that on the last night.

[17] last episode but it's gone from what I thought was just purely kind of it's like menopausal confusion to like I insist that summer start in Los Angeles because this I can do hot and like oh I wish it wasn't so hot that's what I'm used to purposely hot like that you can complain about and then everyone it's like a topic that everyone can talk about yeah it's like once May hits it goes up to 81 and then it just keeps going up and that's what you know that's now it started but we are in a weird San Francisco spring right now.

[18] It makes no sense.

[19] Or it's overcast and dreary but hot as fuck.

[20] Right.

[21] Like make up your mind.

[22] Just come on because I have to keep putting on and taking off this sweater.

[23] And it's inconvenient.

[24] I don't have time.

[25] Oh, no. I, the crows in my neighborhood are starting to recognize me. I can tell.

[26] Uh -oh.

[27] Now that I'm feeding them, like, they know me and they don't like fly off.

[28] Like I'm getting closer and closer to them to give them food.

[29] What's the ultimate goal here?

[30] Diamonds.

[31] You get them to give you diamonds?

[32] Diamonds.

[33] Ultimate goal, okay, let's see.

[34] I guess for them to bring me a trinket would be really cool, you know?

[35] It doesn't matter what it is.

[36] It's just like a clear gift from the crows.

[37] And I'd like them to like me, you know?

[38] Did you see that video of the guy when he puts out his arm and this fucking wild crow from across the yard lands on him?

[39] and he's videoing selfie and he's like clearly freaking out like if it wasn't supposed to happen.

[40] That's what I want to happen.

[41] Oh, wait.

[42] He wasn't like calling the crow like they'd done it before.

[43] He was doing it just like on a whim.

[44] It wasn't like that was their thing and it was a pet crow.

[45] He just went, come here.

[46] And then he does it and he's like, holy fucking shit.

[47] And then the crow's like, yes, what would you like?

[48] You have three wishes.

[49] Because you know they can talk like parrots.

[50] That's right.

[51] That's right.

[52] So I mean, the potential is limitless.

[53] Right.

[54] For the Crow podcast, we are going to produce out of your backyard.

[55] My Favorite Murder.

[56] It's called My Favorite Murder.

[57] Look at it.

[58] It's sitting right there, waiting.

[59] I mean, if I can't make friends with elephants, then I'll make friends with crows.

[60] Just whatever species you can get your hands on.

[61] Truly.

[62] I started a Netflix series that a lot of people are talking about.

[63] Have you heard of the 7M cult, which is the TikTok Dancers cult?

[64] No, we haven't watched that yet.

[65] We're in a world now.

[66] Like social media is its own new entertainment kind of system.

[67] And in anyone where people are like, I'm here to make money.

[68] I'm here to have my talent be found out.

[69] I'm here, whatever.

[70] It's like everything is so exploitable.

[71] And for something like this where the idea is you're at home, you practice, you know, you want to be, you love dance, you're a really good dancer, you practice, you put your TikToks up, other people think.

[72] you're good and then suddenly you somehow find your way into a system of how to become like an even bigger and better right because you we always have to keep feeding this monster of content and it's just it's just always more more more as we all know but they tried to combine like a church and like a management company and i only got past the first episode and i'm like i this is so frightening to me it's so people are so susceptible these days i mean it's so dark it's just like yeah i'm trying not to scroll as much again i think this is like the 19th time i've said that in the past eight and a half years of like trying to take a social media break but it hooks you like you were addicted and to new content constantly absolutely we all are and to the dopamine that just stepping away from the horrors of life uh which there are many for everybody right now, and it's hard times.

[73] So then you're like, oh, I'm looking into my little phone and, oh, these people are such good dancers.

[74] They're being held against their will, or they were already brainwashed.

[75] Or allegedly, I don't know, I just watched one episode.

[76] But it's like that kind of thing where you're just like, man, this is like, it's not like we're getting away from it.

[77] It feels like for all the podcasts that everyone's doing, it's like, why are they still happening?

[78] Why isn't everyone, why doesn't everyone know?

[79] It really feels like the bad place a lot of times, doesn't it?

[80] You mean online?

[81] Yeah.

[82] Life a little bit.

[83] A little more central to life.

[84] Should we do network highlights and then tell our stories?

[85] Sure.

[86] Hey, we have a podcast network.

[87] We talk about it a lot and we give you highlights from it.

[88] So we have some for you right now.

[89] Georgia, take it away.

[90] Okay.

[91] This week you can listen to the third episode of Tenfoldmore Wicked's 12th season.

[92] in which Kate Winkler Dawson details the life and death of Lizzie Borden's great Aunt Eliza.

[93] Did you even know?

[94] Did I know?

[95] Anyone.

[96] Yes.

[97] Writer and comedian Julie Klausner is over on ghosted by Roz Hernandez talking to Roz about all kinds of spooky things.

[98] Julie Klazner is one of the funniest people ever.

[99] Definitely check that out.

[100] And on that's messed up, Kara and Lisa discussed the episode Fast Times at the Wheelhouse from SVU's 23rd season and have a conversation with law and order regular Ainsley Seeger.

[101] And lastly, we have a classic product back in stock.

[102] Go over to the exactly right store .com and order the enamel mood pin with a spinning hand that helps determine your vibe.

[103] Oh, and Aaron Brown, who we incorrectly credited Aaron Brown for the new thank you design of the merch that we have.

[104] It was actually Nicole Coffey's design plan.

[105] So Aaron was reminding us that because she didn't want to take Nicole's credit, which is really awesome.

[106] We've been working with Nicole four years.

[107] She is a merch queen.

[108] So thank you, Nicole, for coming up with that great design.

[109] Georgia, when you think about clothing that's evolved over the centuries, I bet you socks aren't on the top of that list.

[110] That's true.

[111] But let me tell you something.

[112] They've come a long way.

[113] When humans started wearing socks, they were made of leather, Karen.

[114] Think of how sweaty that is.

[115] Now, just a few centuries later, they're soft, stylish, and have the arch support of your dreams.

[116] Well, that is if you're wearing bambas.

[117] From their foot -hugging arch support to the anti -blister tabs and cushioned footbeds, Bomba socks are designed to keep your feet comfortable and supported.

[118] Their thoughtful design doesn't stop its socks.

[119] They also make underwear and shirts that give you the best fit and feel every day.

[120] And the Bomba's Spring Collection takes basics to the next level with playful designs like stripes and florals.

[121] If you're feeling extra fun, check out their quarter socks with a frilly cuff.

[122] And the best part is, every time you buy any Bomba's basic, you donate essential clothing to those in need.

[123] One item purchased equals one item donated.

[124] Okay, so I have a really high arch, and I'm kind of like between half sizes.

[125] So anytime I wear a new pair of shoes or I just haven't worn them in a while, my heel gets so messed up.

[126] So having socks like this that actually like think about those things and consider them and then don't fall down your foot during the day while you're wearing your shoes, huge.

[127] It's like a lifesaver.

[128] They're so good.

[129] Get comfy this spring and give back with bambas.

[130] Head to bombas .com slash MFM and use code MFM for 20.

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[133] Goodbye.

[134] Do you ever walk into a hotel lobby and think, this design is so cool, I would never think of putting those pieces together.

[135] Or when you try to recreate that look that you saw, you either can't find the right stuff or it ends up looking weird together.

[136] Thankfully, article is here to help.

[137] Not only do they offer design resources, but they make it easy to get inspiration from other customers' designs too.

[138] When you visit Articles' website, you can shop by room and browse through their curated collection of designs and styles.

[139] Or you can see how real customers have styled their pieces in their actual home.

[140] It makes shopping easy and approachable.

[141] And with Spring and Full Swing, you might be itching to change up your space.

[142] So check out Articles' website for new items or get ideas on how you can restile your existing pieces based on how other customers are doing it.

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[145] mid -century dining rooms and even modern patios with article there's something for everyone i mean we love article we've talked about it so much on this podcast but truly like the table that i just got from article that is just this little narrow side table that i put in the front foyer i guess the doorway so i can have i have a place to put my keys and a lamp and some books underneath it is so beautiful it's such a nice piece of furniture, really well made, perfectly sized for what it's trying to do.

[146] I'm just so always impressed by article.

[147] Totally.

[148] And article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

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[150] That's A -R -T -I -C -L -E dot com slash murder to get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

[151] Goodbye.

[152] Okay.

[153] I am very proud to say that my researcher, Marin, is back on the job.

[154] She has been off to have a baby, and she has returned, and I'm very happy that she is back.

[155] Although Jay Elias, who does many, many things at this company, was the stand -in researcher for us.

[156] A job that I would never want to have to do as a stand -in, and he killed it.

[157] So thank you, Jay, so much for covering.

[158] And also, Jay used to do it back in the day.

[159] Jay's done it over the years.

[160] You guys know Jay.

[161] He's one of the O .G. researchers.

[162] Okay.

[163] So today's story that I'm going to tell you starts in 2019 when a 57 -year -old man named Anthony Denning Sr. arrives at the Indiana cemetery looking for his great -grandfather, George Denning's grave.

[164] Anthony's tried to find this grave before, but he's never been able to.

[165] And for most of his life, Anthony hasn't known much about his great -grandfather, except for this one thing.

[166] His great -grandfather was a black man in the late 1800s who killed.

[167] killed a white man. And about that, Anthony says, quote, it seemed like one of those family secrets that no one really wanted to talk about.

[168] But in the 2010s, Anthony stumbles on a blog post about what actually happened on that night that the murder was committed.

[169] And this is when Anthony begins to realize how historically significant his great -grandfather's story actually is.

[170] So this is the story of George Denning versus the clan.

[171] Damn.

[172] Yeah.

[173] So the main source used for this story today is a book called A Shot in the Moonlight by a writer named Ben Montgomery and by Anthony Denning, Sr., the man I was just talking about.

[174] And the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

[175] So it all starts in the late 1800s, a very turbulent time after the Civil War when the United States was trying to cobble itself back together.

[176] It's also the era of Jim Crow, the racist response to four million formerly enslaved black people getting their basic rights.

[177] So during this time, black Americans are constantly terrorized with white supremacist violence and discrimination.

[178] These new laws and well -established social norms aim to keep black people segregated, disenfranchised, and as powerless as possible.

[179] So it's January 21st, 1897 in Simpson County southwestern Kentucky, kind of close to the Tennessee border.

[180] I didn't know this, but I'm sure people that went to high school did.

[181] Kentucky never joined the Confederacy in the Civil War, but racial violence is very much a part of life there, as it is throughout the South.

[182] This story actually takes place only 100 miles away from the birthplace of the KKK in Pulaski, Tennessee.

[183] So 42 -year -old George Dining, a formerly enslaved black man, is fast asleep in his small two -story cabin that he built with his own hands and that he shares with his white, Molly and seven of their 12 children.

[184] So some of their children have already grown up and left the house, but the kids that still live there range from 12 years old to four months old.

[185] So George has lived in this part of Kentucky his whole life.

[186] He was born into slavery.

[187] He became a free man when he was around 10 years old.

[188] And since then, he's done well as a farmer.

[189] And over the last 15 years, he's been so successful growing crops like tobacco and wheat, he was actually able to purchase his own property so he now owns the 125 acres of farmland that he works wow i know right it's impressive but he's not a rich man he's living a modest life as a as a working farmer but still of course the fact that he's a black man who does decent business and owns land is enough to piss off the local racists so around 11 p .m on the night of january 21st 1897 george is jolted awake by the sound of his dog barking outside, and then he hears men talking.

[190] But it's too dark to see when he looks out the window who's out there.

[191] When the group gets close to the house, a single male voice calls out to George asking him to come outside for a friendly chat.

[192] But when George asks the men to identify themselves, they refuse.

[193] So he knows it can't be good.

[194] There's no friendly chat in the middle of the night.

[195] That's not a thing.

[196] With someone yelling your name and a bunch of other people around them and George tells his wife Molly that's not much of a friend if he will not give a name so they know of course what's up and George knows he doesn't have many options they're not those men aren't going to go anywhere so he climbs out of bed walks downstairs and opens his front door and he is now face to face with 25 clansmen on his front porch yeah these men waste no time telling George they're there because they think he's a thief they say he's been stealing poultry tree and hogs from his neighbor's smoke houses, and they instruct him and his family to abandon their home and property and get out of the county within 10 days.

[197] And one man says, if George gives him any trouble, he'll, quote, tear this damn shack down and take you out and hang you.

[198] Oh my God.

[199] So George is shocked.

[200] He tells the men they have the wrong guy.

[201] He hasn't taken anything from any of his neighbors.

[202] And he actually says he knows several white men in the area who would instantly vouch for his honesty and his integrity.

[203] This actually makes the Klansman more hostile, and then all of a sudden someone fires a gun at toward the house.

[204] George doesn't know what's going on.

[205] It's dark outside.

[206] He just hears loud booms, and then he feels a sharp pain on his arm, and he realizes he's just been shot.

[207] So he runs inside, he grabs his shotgun, he rushes upstairs, he runs into his daughter's bedroom that has a front facing window he throws it open, sticks the muzzle of the shotgun out the window and he aims his shotgun at the mob and while that's happening he's still bleeding from the arm then he feels another jolt of pain now he's it's in his forehead what?

[208] Yeah he's been shot again but this time the bullet just grazed his forehead so thank God but in response to that he fires around into the mob and that's when the atmosphere outside shifts the clansmen have stopped firing their weapons they seem to be leaving the Dinn's property but then of course a few hours later they find out why word is quickly spread around town a rich white 32 year old man named Jody Kahn has been killed and George is the one who killed him so this is a very it's a small community they're tight -knit.

[209] George actually knows Jody and he's done odd jobs for the Khan family in the past.

[210] George also knows how this is going to shake out.

[211] So he's a black man who just killed a very rich white person.

[212] So the context around why Jody Khan was in Georgia's front yard or the fact that George's life was in danger when he fired the weapon won't matter.

[213] And he realizes all of this at one time.

[214] So he knows the mob will come back and the next time they come, they're going to be bigger and angrier and they're going to be out for blood.

[215] So he figures he needs to get away from the farm and turn himself into the police, which is the best way to divert the mob from his wife and kids and any chance that he has to stay alive is to turn himself in, which is horrifying.

[216] He does it.

[217] It's a courageous move because he'll basically be a sitting duck in jail.

[218] And at the time, it was very common for jailers to turn black prisoners over to lynch mobs.

[219] But George had to Franklin, Kentucky, the seat of Simpson County.

[220] He sets off on foot and walks nine miles with gunshot wound in the arm to turn himself in.

[221] And immediately, the shootout at the Dining property becomes front page news.

[222] White Run newspapers churn out extremely biased reports, of course, and that was the majority of newspapers back then.

[223] In some case, baseless accusations that the mob made against George, like that he was stealing that food, are treated.

[224] as facts in the case.

[225] At the same time, the members of the mob are described as heroic vigilantes, who just made an innocent mistake.

[226] So the whole story and the kind of twist of the story is coming out, or not the twist, but the manipulation of the truth of the story that's going to cover why this person was killed.

[227] Right.

[228] The cover up.

[229] It's a cover up.

[230] As reported by the Courier Journal newspaper, they were, quote, preparing to leave when one of the party accidentally discharged.

[231] his gun.

[232] That's their story.

[233] And this, of course, fuels local races fury even further.

[234] So the same people who were fine harassing George before Jody Khan was shot and killed are now out for blood.

[235] Newspapers start reporting that George Dinning will be pulled from the county jail and lynched.

[236] They're just like projecting that future.

[237] And a group of clansmen do show up at the jail.

[238] George can hear them as they're gathering outside.

[239] And according to Ben Montgomery, George also hears the sheriff, Bud Clark, quote, begging the mob to hold off until the next day when dinning would be given a preliminary hearing.

[240] Then they could have him, end quote.

[241] It's just by chance Sheriff Clark isn't like many of the racist lawmen in the American South at the time.

[242] Ben Montgomery actually describes him as, quote, a strong Democrat, a Baptist, and a member of a secret fraternal order that promoted philanthropy and friendship, end quote.

[243] So when Sheriff Clark tells the angry mob, he'll turn George over tomorrow.

[244] He's actually just lying to buy George some time.

[245] So once he convinces the mob to stand down, Sheriff Clark smuggles George out of town to Bowling Green 20 miles away.

[246] Holy shit.

[247] So George is able to get out of town, but the white men go back to the dinning farm and they order Molly and the kids to leave town immediately.

[248] immediately, and they basically threaten to kill them if they don't do it.

[249] Molly begs the men to let her stay or at least just give her a little bit more time to figure out where to go.

[250] It's the middle of winter, and she has a bunch of small, of little kids.

[251] She has seven basically little kids.

[252] Molly later testifies that, quote, near sundown, I left with my children, the youngest being four months old.

[253] I was so badly frightened when I left that I did not take time to put wrapping on myself or the children.

[254] So she was run out of her on home.

[255] And when the house is empty, when everyone's out of it, the mob raids the home, steals anything of value, and sets it, the stable, and all the farmland on fire.

[256] The home dinnings had built over the last 15 years and everything Molly and the kids couldn't take with them are just gone.

[257] So in Bowling Green, George is, of course, infuriated by these injustices.

[258] and he refuses to accept them but he knows that he can't fight the battle alone so from jail he writes to then -governor Bill Bradley and part of his letter says quote I only acted in what I believe to be in defense of my home and my family and I do not feel that I should suffer for it which I know that I must do unless you interfere on my behalf end quote which is yeah if you don't help me no one's going to help me here and this letter works Governor Bradley is sympathetic to George's case, and in June of 1897, roughly five months after George and his family are attacked, George is transferred back to the Simpson County Jail for his murder trial.

[259] So Governor Bradley, who's worried about lynch mobs, actually sends a militia to another part of the state to go protect that jail.

[260] Whoa.

[261] Mm -hmm.

[262] And that actually turns out to be extremely necessary as the Lexington Morning Herald interviews a local man who says, without the militia men, quote, they would have just taken George out and hung him up, end quote.

[263] Oh, shit.

[264] So the governor orders these militia men to protect George throughout the trial.

[265] And when George shows up to court, he is flanked by eight militia members.

[266] Wow.

[267] And George's lawyer, John B. Greider is also at his side.

[268] In the book, John Greider is described as a, quote, 47 -year -old Presbyterian and Lifelong Democrat, widely known as the most absent -minded man in Bowling Green.

[269] He once put a lit cigar in his pocket and set his suit on fire, but then convinced an insurance company to reimburse him for the ruins clothing.

[270] Oh, my God.

[271] Is he a cartoon character?

[272] He's like, yeah, he's the, he's a Mr. Magoo, but he's also like, can you think of an example of someone who's super good at stuff, but absent -minded?

[273] Oh.

[274] Like the nutty professor.

[275] Yeah, who just like keeps tripping in up and up and up.

[276] Yes.

[277] So this turns out to not end up being the open and shut trial that we'd all think it could be, even though it's a fully white jury, when the members of the mob testify.

[278] And we say white mob sometimes in KKK, sometimes because obviously they didn't know exactly who was there until those people started testifying in court.

[279] So when they do, they cannot offer a justifiable reason why they went to Georgia's house that night, aside.

[280] from that baseless accusation that he may have stolen food.

[281] The accusation had no proof, and even if it did, of course, it would not be up to a mob of people to figure out how to deal with an alleged crime.

[282] So this case comes down to a man defending his property from attackers, much like the stand your ground laws of today.

[283] And it should transcend racial lines.

[284] In fact, at the time, the white -owned and run newspaper, the Owensboro Inquirer, reported the following.

[285] Quote, if George Dinning is convicted at Franklin, the governor ought to pardon him without a day's delay.

[286] A lot of low -down scamps fell out with him and went to his house after a night to whip him and run him out of the county.

[287] He performed the praiseworthy act of killing one of them.

[288] Dinning ought to be given 40 acres of land and a mule for his action in protecting himself and his family.

[289] Wow.

[290] So knowing how much like the media, especially back then when it would be like the one newspaper where everyone was reading, knowing how much they could impact this kind of action, the Owensboro Inquirer really stepped up.

[291] And probably just like think about, it's that thing.

[292] It's the stand your ground can't only count for white men.

[293] Right.

[294] Right.

[295] So all the evidence points to George Denning being not guilty of willful murder, but he is still convicted of manslaughter.

[296] and he is sentenced to seven years hard labor by that jury of 12 white men.

[297] But then this story does take a big turn because in July of 1897, which is about two weeks after George's conviction, Governor Bradley steps in and pardons him.

[298] Nice.

[299] Plus, he informs George of this decision 24 hours before he announces it publicly giving George time to safely get out of town.

[300] Wow.

[301] Yep, but just kind of like, it's like they knew how everything worked.

[302] They knew how it worked.

[303] So when they didn't do that, they were basically, you know, sentencing people to death and vice versa.

[304] So when he's released from prison, George meets up with his wife and children in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

[305] So at least he, like, his family has landed somewhere safe.

[306] Then that enables him to land somewhere safe.

[307] And that's finally when he can do that.

[308] He starts thinking about how those men back in Simpson County basically tore his entire life apart.

[309] and he wants them to face consequences because him being exonerated from murder does not make George's life magically better.

[310] He has literally lost everything.

[311] It's actually, everything's been taken from him.

[312] It's only been six months, so it just happened.

[313] And he thinks about the fact that members of that white mob testified in open court.

[314] So the testimonies implicated them in the destruction of George's home and of his farm, but their identities are no longer a mystery under hoods and masks.

[315] So George decides he should sue these men and he doesn't keep it a secret.

[316] He's going to sue them?

[317] Holy shit.

[318] He's going to sue them.

[319] Holy shit.

[320] He's like, I have your name.

[321] You admitted you were there.

[322] Oh, my God.

[323] You're the reason I don't have a farm.

[324] Yeah.

[325] I mean, it totally makes sense.

[326] Like 100%.

[327] He's correct.

[328] That's just so.

[329] The chutzpah is like, unbelievable.

[330] Next level, yeah.

[331] But I think it's that thing of, like, when you take everything away from people, you leave them with nothing to lose.

[332] So he doesn't live there.

[333] He got away.

[334] His family's safe.

[335] And now he's like, I'm not just going to sit here.

[336] And the thing that I was thinking of, it's probably also that way because, I mean, it would be that way for anyone, especially if you built your own house, whatever.

[337] Farms are so hard.

[338] They're such hard work.

[339] To make them.

[340] profitable is like not it's not an easy task I'm sure it's you against nature you are fighting mother nature hoping to make enough money to fight mother nature again next season or whatever whatever it is and they they just took it all and then like walked so he's like yeah you know what no so there's a writer named roland close who said about george quote that george begins speaking out about the injustice he had endured, even telling a local newspaper that he intended to file a damage suit against the men who burned his house, end quote.

[341] So obviously this is incredibly brave.

[342] It puts a target on his back, like, as we're saying.

[343] And then, of course, that newspaper publishes George's quote, and very soon after he is attacked by a group of white men and beaten very severely.

[344] But he doesn't back down.

[345] Instead, he starts looking for a lawyer, which, of course, at that time, is not easy.

[346] Ben Montgomery writes, quote, Black residents had trouble getting legal representation.

[347] Lawyers weren't interested in taking on civil cases that didn't offer the possibility of big payouts.

[348] And it was often hard for black litigants to pay lawyers fees.

[349] Another deterrent was the constant threat of violence against white lawyers who would dare represent black citizens suing whites.

[350] Right, of course.

[351] I mean, just that right there is such an example of like this system being rigged against black people.

[352] Like, I'm surprised that sheriff who snuck him out, he wasn't attacked.

[353] He might have been.

[354] He might have been, yeah.

[355] Well, but there's also that, like, it could be the thing of maybe he was the one person that had enough power to actually affect something good.

[356] And they knew it's like he is the law.

[357] I also could be thinking of the movie Tombstone.

[358] Okay.

[359] So George eventually finds well -known Southern lawyer, H. Young, who was also quite the personality.

[360] Young had been following this case because it'd been in the media so much.

[361] So he offers to represent George Pro Bono.

[362] And many historians don't know how to classify Bennett H. Young.

[363] On one hand, he often represented black men and women in court pro bono.

[364] He opened an orphanage for black children.

[365] But he also fought in the Civil War on the side of the Confederacy.

[366] He was a Confederate Civil War hero.

[367] And he maintained that the South was in the right during the Civil War.

[368] So he was a Confederate Southern white man. Weird.

[369] Right?

[370] He's like a little bit of a double life.

[371] His legacy is, of course, problematic.

[372] We're talking about the turn of the century.

[373] Yeah.

[374] All of that is, it's confusing to take into account when George's suit against the Klansman goes to court in 1890 and Young basically kills it.

[375] He is emotional, articulate.

[376] He's impassioned.

[377] At one point, he tells the courtroom, there was a great rejoicing in hell this morning.

[378] When men of intelligence, the two lawyers who have spoken for the defendants in this case, argue that a man may be murdered or driven from his home and his family by any self -constituted mob that may elect to take his life and destroy his property, all the demons smiled and applauded.

[379] Well may we, in view of the brutality towards this man and his wife and children, as detailed from the witness.

[380] says cry out, is God dead.

[381] Oh, my God.

[382] Epic speeches in history.

[383] And then he pulled off his one little eye thing and threw it on the ground.

[384] His monocle.

[385] Monocle.

[386] I can't think of any fucking words today.

[387] So in the spring of 1899, which is a little less than three years since the Klansman attacked the Dinnings farm, an all -white jury finds in favor of George Dinning.

[388] and he's awarded $50 ,000 in damages, which is worth...

[389] Okay, $1899, $50 ,000.

[390] $1 .2?

[391] $2 million.

[392] At least I was in the million.

[393] Oh, thank God.

[394] Yeah.

[395] He's awarded $2 million in damages in that day.

[396] Yeah.

[397] But we can't be too excited because, of course, it's a rigged system.

[398] And how it usually goes in things like this, which is that many of these...

[399] mob members slash clansmen that George is suing are so poor that they just simply can't give him any of that even, you know, barely a fraction of that money.

[400] So all in all, George ends up getting somewhere between $1750 and $3 ,500 worth today between $66 ,000 and $132 ,000.

[401] So a fraction.

[402] It's something.

[403] It's something, but it's a fraction.

[404] It's a fraction.

[405] And the trauma.

[406] we get a couple mill for that trauma please for his whole family my god well you just open the door to talk about reparations for black people because yes yes here i am hear me roar here we roar so still it's a huge victory for george denning he is one of the first if not the first black man to successfully sue the members of a white lynch bob wow yeah it's amazing it's incredible One Minneapolis -based newspaper even reports that it, quote, partly redeems the South from its heavy burden of disgrace and barbarism, end quote.

[407] George goes on to live a quiet life in Indiana.

[408] He ends up changing his last name from Dinning, which is D -I -N -N -I -N -G, to Denning, which is Anthony's last name, the guy I was talking about from the beginning of the story, probably in an effort to have the name be different but close enough so he can still, like, get his mail, right?

[409] But then it's like if people are looking for him, they won't find him.

[410] He starts working for a local coal company.

[411] And when he's in his early 70s and 1930, George Denning passes away.

[412] And over the years, his story fades into obscurity.

[413] Yeah, I've never heard of that.

[414] Right?

[415] Until the 2010s, when this case is rediscovered by several journalists, one of them, Ben Montgomery, who basically realized that historical importance, like legally, and culturally significant of this all happening and George Denning standing up and fighting this fight.

[416] This was a man who was as courageous as he was smart, who used the court system to get his justice and to enact meaningful consequences against the racist white men who believed they were above the law.

[417] So George, in doing this paved away for people who would come after, a journalist named Colette Bancroft described George Denning's civil court case as, quote, an early example of the deployment of the legal system to fight racism that became one of the civil rights movement's most useful tools.

[418] Wow.

[419] And for George's great grants on Anthony, what happened on the night of January 21st, 1897, and the actions his great -grandfather took after that, of course, are much more impactful and personal to him.

[420] Then writer Ben Montgomery says this about it, quote, that night exists as a signpost.

[421] in Anthony's lineage, a historic marker he can point to as a moment that helped create him three generations before.

[422] If things had gone differently that night, if George Denning had failed to grab his rifle or hadn't taken a bullet in the head or hadn't mustered the courage to squeeze the trigger, Anthony Denning might not have been born.

[423] Yeah.

[424] And Anthony himself puts it like this.

[425] Some of this falls down to us.

[426] We've been fighters.

[427] I feel like we were raised off of the things that he went through to stand up and have courage and face the things that come your way end quote and that is the story of george dinning and his fight for justice wow it's funny we talk about generational trauma which is a real thing look it up but what about generational resilience good point right great point let's let's look into that i mean what an amazing thing anthony has in his back pocket to like get him through hard times is that he has this incredible heritage of resilience.

[428] And that's a fucking incredible story.

[429] And I want everyone to carry that with them this week as they go through the trials and tribulations of life.

[430] Or try to find other equal stories that just haven't been found because it's something a black person did or an Asian person did or a woman did or a gay person did.

[431] And yes, Anne, email those to us for hometowns at My Favorite Murder at Gmail.

[432] we want to hear about your great grandparents and your grandparents and the resilience that they had and the shit they went through to like make it possible for you to be here today generational resilience great you've done it goodbye this is your goodbye this is you've got there's your book george is on audible with her new book have another job Jesus Christ social media can make it easy to connect to our friends but when major life events happen you might need more serious support don't wait for the big moment to test your connections.

[433] Make it a practice to work on the small stuff in therapy.

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[442] Karen, can you imagine the past 10 years of your life without therapy in it?

[443] Oh, dude.

[444] What would our lives look like?

[445] It'd be in shambles.

[446] It would not be pretty at all.

[447] So everyone, why are you waiting?

[448] There's 10 more years ahead of you.

[449] Be in therapy for them.

[450] I promise it'll make them better.

[451] It sounds intimidating, but something like TalkSpace, where you get to start in a very familiar way, texting, online.

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[461] Goodbye.

[462] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[463] Absolutely.

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[481] Goodbye.

[482] Okay, well, wow, that was incredible and inspiring.

[483] And now we're going to pivot into a mystery.

[484] Oh, nice.

[485] I'm going to tell you one of Australia's most important.

[486] enduring mysteries.

[487] It's an aviation incident that some people think was an alien abduction.

[488] Oh.

[489] And I fucking totally do for sure.

[490] This is the story of the disappearance of a young pilot named Frederick Valentich.

[491] The main source for this story is a radio feature from the Australian broadcasting company.

[492] And you can hear some original audio in that too, which is so creepy, but I won't play it for you because I know you don't like that stuff.

[493] Don't like aliens.

[494] Yeah, I don't like emergency audio.

[495] Yeah, that's my list.

[496] There's other stuff too.

[497] So first I'm going to tell you about Frederick Ballantitch.

[498] He is born June 9th, the day after me. But in 1958, his parents are Guido and Alberta, and they immigrate to Melbourne, which, of course, as we know, is in Victoria, the southernmost state in Australia.

[499] And they were from Tree East, which is in Italy.

[500] So they're Italian.

[501] Fred is the oldest of four.

[502] He's not particularly academic as a kid, but he's more interested in mechanics, particularly the mechanics of motorcycles and airplanes.

[503] And it sounds to me that kind of thing where it's like your brain doesn't fit into the regulated school system.

[504] And so people don't think you're as smart as you are, but you're smarter in your own way.

[505] You know, like you're not into fucking mechanics and shit if you're like, you don't have a great brain, you know?

[506] Yes.

[507] Yeah.

[508] And from early childhood, always has dreamed of becoming a pilot.

[509] So after graduating high school, he tries twice to get into the Royal Australian Air Force, but is rejected both times based on his poor academic performance in school.

[510] But he keeps showing up, asking for an unpaid civilian position, and eventually they give it to him.

[511] This is how dedicated it is to becoming, to like working with planes and becoming a pilot.

[512] Oh, unpaid.

[513] That sucks.

[514] I know.

[515] But they give it to him.

[516] They give him the rank of airmen.

[517] And he also gets a private pilot's license and flies as much as he can working toward becoming a commercial pilot.

[518] Like, that's his dream.

[519] So by October in 1978, Fred is now 20 years old.

[520] And he is what people call a low -time pilot, meaning he has not banked a ton of flying hours.

[521] He only has about 150 flying hours to date.

[522] And anything under 500 hours is generally considered low -time.

[523] Today, the types of jobs available to low -time pilots who want to build experience include banner towing, aerial surveying, and skydive plane piloting.

[524] So just another reason not to go skydiving is the person driving the plane doesn't have a lot of experience.

[525] I mean, but how do you learn if you don't get up there and help the skydivers?

[526] Video games.

[527] You should be able to be like, can I see your punch card of exactly how many hours you have before I do my unnecessarily stupid stunt thing.

[528] I do not understand skydiving.

[529] It's insane.

[530] When Benson went in the helicopter when we were in Hawaii and this lovely sweet kid was flying it.

[531] But he was a kid and he was like, I've been doing this since.

[532] And it was like a year that I was already in my 30s that he'd been doing it for.

[533] You know what I mean?

[534] And I'm like, I wish she had said like over 12 years at least.

[535] Oh, yeah.

[536] Yeah.

[537] You know?

[538] Like, I don't want you to still have like childhood acne flying whatever I'm in.

[539] He's like, hey, it's fungal.

[540] It's not childhood.

[541] I can't stop touching my face.

[542] Don't touch your face.

[543] And Fred doesn't have a high instrument rating, meaning he's only permitted to fly when visual conditions are good, not when he has to depend on his instruments to know how he's oriented in the sky.

[544] It reminds me of someone who can type really fast, but they have to look at their fingers the whole time.

[545] It's like, you don't totally know.

[546] He just hasn't put in those hours that are needed right that are kind of crucial which is like do you know how to run radar do you know how to like if you're at this level and this happens like which what do you switch it's like some of like guitar but they can't read music you know what I mean it's like there's just certain levels I feel like everyone gets that there's levels the word levels exists for a fucking reason how if listener if you need us to explain levels a little more please write in to my murder at jeanne Listen, if I have to give you an asinine fucking explanation, then maybe you should be starting at the dictionary podcast, not at my favorite murder.

[547] So, Fred is 20, and he has a 16 -year -old girlfriend named Rhonda Rushton.

[548] Great name.

[549] Rhonda Rushton, yeah.

[550] He's 20.

[551] Rhonda's family loves him.

[552] And from the reporting, it seems like the age difference isn't a big deal at this time.

[553] I think it was a little more acceptable.

[554] Yeah, it's a different time and also four years isn't crazy.

[555] I don't know.

[556] Right.

[557] Who knows?

[558] Let's not make excuses.

[559] Let's not make excuses.

[560] But still like, let's not do that.

[561] But I did it.

[562] Don't do it.

[563] Okay.

[564] So she flies with him a lot.

[565] It seems like they are really in love with each other.

[566] And it like he's going to propose to her and like this is the one.

[567] All right.

[568] So here we are October 21st, 1978.

[569] Where were you?

[570] Karen?

[571] I didn't exist yet.

[572] Oh, I was eight.

[573] So I was actually at the peak of my life.

[574] I was truly about I was becoming the best I was ever.

[575] going to be at eight years old.

[576] The best you.

[577] Free and easy.

[578] I'd a really good, like, feathered haircut.

[579] Yeah.

[580] A lot of neon clothes.

[581] That's the 80s more.

[582] Yeah, that's later in the 80s.

[583] This was closer to the 70s.

[584] So a lot of primary colors.

[585] Browns.

[586] Because it had just been 70, 1976.

[587] So we were coming off the red, white, and blue of everything.

[588] So it's more, a little more like, you know, I think Superman was in the movie theater.

[589] It was that vibe where it's just kind of in between the country of the 70s.

[590] What's the word, halcyon?

[591] It was halcyon days.

[592] The halcyon days.

[593] 1978 was, because I think we were out of the gas crisis a tiny bit.

[594] Oh, right.

[595] Like a little further away from it, we were about to head into the cocaine 80s of capitalism.

[596] Basically, that's where I got the idea of like Gordon Gecko greed is good.

[597] Right.

[598] That whole energy.

[599] Reaganism is about to fucking punch you in the face.

[600] It's about to totally deregulate this entire.

[601] country and really pull the rug out from services.

[602] So here we are.

[603] But we're in Australia, so it's fun.

[604] It's so depressing.

[605] You can't get out of it.

[606] Okay.

[607] But yeah, we're in Australia.

[608] Let's let go.

[609] Melbourne and fucking the 70s, sign me up.

[610] Like, I'm there.

[611] Oh, my God.

[612] The sexiness level was through the roof.

[613] Oh, my God.

[614] So it's 6 .19 p .m. As I said, on August 21st, 1978.

[615] Fred takes off from Morabin Airport, which is a small airport just outside Melbourne.

[616] His His destination is a place called King Island.

[617] He's allegedly meeting some friends for dinner on the beach.

[618] Like, how fucking beautiful is that?

[619] Like, I'm going to fly over real quick to meet my friends.

[620] Yeah, that's the life.

[621] And King Island is about halfway between the Australian mainland and the island of Tasmania.

[622] So Fred did all the normal stuff.

[623] He submitted a flight plan to the Melbourne Air Flight Service, which is basically air traffic control, and he'll need to check in regularly with them throughout the flight.

[624] He's supposed to tell the airfield at King Island of his intention to land there.

[625] but it appears he never does that.

[626] And I don't know if he was supposed to do it before or when he was in the air, but either way, he never does that.

[627] I'd guess before.

[628] I'd think so too.

[629] Like, hey, bro, I'm going to be your airport in like 20, whatever, you know?

[630] Yeah.

[631] Or however long.

[632] There are conflicting accounts of what Fred's plans are once he gets to King Island.

[633] And this is some people pick up on these little things, like things he didn't do that he was supposed to do or like his plans.

[634] So he tells his family he's going to pick up crayfish in the area, which there is a lot of.

[635] And he tells the flight service department that he's going to be picking up passengers there.

[636] But most reports say that no one was actually waiting for him on King Island.

[637] So there were no friends.

[638] What if there was crayfish dressed up like tourists and they were the passengers?

[639] Where does crayfish were his friend?

[640] What if he was including crayfish?

[641] Like the crows are mine.

[642] Yes.

[643] Finally for once, people are actually treating crayfish like the passengers that they can be.

[644] So Fred will be flying over a body of water called the Bass Straight.

[645] It's a notoriously difficult spot for pilots because of frequent bad weather, but tonight the weather is clear and there's very little wind.

[646] He's rented your favorite plane, a Cessna 182 L. Yeah, the L. You got to get the L. Yeah, you love that.

[647] Capital L for sure.

[648] That's right.

[649] It's a four -seat single -engine plane.

[650] So it's teeny tiny.

[651] It's like the little one that you're like, oh, no, this feels not safe, you know.

[652] It's the one from sitcoms where somebody hits the pilot in the head and they pass out.

[653] and then everybody has to it, right?

[654] Exactly.

[655] You've seen that episode.

[656] Oh, I love that episode.

[657] So we're talking small ass plane, and he's just in it alone.

[658] The whole flight's supposed to take about an hour, and he's supposed to be at about 5 ,000 feet the whole time.

[659] You know.

[660] The rules.

[661] You know the rules of planes.

[662] So at 7 p .m., Fred is on his planned route, route, on his planned route.

[663] It's your choice.

[664] Router route.

[665] I'm going to go route.

[666] He's making a turn at, Point Otway and begins to fly over the bass straight where he's supposed to be.

[667] He's where he's supposed to be.

[668] At 7 .06 p .m. Fred Radio's flight service, basically air traffic control.

[669] And the man on the other end of the radio based at the airport in Melbourne is named Steve Roby.

[670] Okay.

[671] So I'm going to paraphrase their conversation.

[672] So I don't just read you the transcript.

[673] And you're going to do it in a Kiwi accent.

[674] I will not offend.

[675] I will not offend that many people.

[676] I refuse too many.

[677] Okay.

[678] So Fred is piloting.

[679] And he asked if there's any known traffic below 5 ,000 feet.

[680] And Steve, the air traffic control guy, tells him that there's no other air traffic.

[681] And Fred says there seems to be a large aircraft above him.

[682] He sees four bright lights that look like, quote, landing lights.

[683] He asked if there are any military aircraft in the vicinity.

[684] And Steve's like, nah, dude, no, there isn't.

[685] Fred says, quote, it seems to me that he's playing some sort of game.

[686] He's flying over me two, three times at a time at speeds I could not identify, end quote.

[687] So someone's fucking around.

[688] And Steve can't really offer any more information.

[689] He asks Fred, like some basics, his levels.

[690] Fred says he's at 4 ,500 feet.

[691] And the radar doesn't work below 5 ,000 feet.

[692] So Steve can't really see the plane or see what's going on around him.

[693] Steve asked Fred to describe the aircraft that's fucking with him.

[694] and Fred says, quote, it seems like it's chasing me. What I'm doing right now is orbiting, and the thing is just orbiting on top of me also.

[695] It's got a green light and sort of metallic.

[696] It's all shiny on the outside, end quote.

[697] Mm -hmm.

[698] Then Fred says it vanishes.

[699] Suddenly it vanishes.

[700] Fred then says he can hear his engine having some trouble right after it vanishes.

[701] Then he says a mysterious object has reappeared.

[702] He says, quote, it's hovering.

[703] And it's not an aircraft.

[704] And Fred's voice is never heard again.

[705] It's hovering and it's not an aircraft.

[706] End of transmission.

[707] There is an open mic for 17 seconds and what's described, this is what I heard on this radio show.

[708] It's a pulsed noise or a metallic clanging.

[709] It does sound like an empty tin can being dragged behind a car on the pavement.

[710] Just kind of a nothing, a nothing.

[711] Let me explain nothing.

[712] That's kind of poetic.

[713] It's like, yeah, what does nothing sound like?

[714] It sounds like a tin can being dragged down the road by a ghost bride and groom in their car.

[715] Is it a wedding or is it an abduction you choose?

[716] So you're telling me that this man has now disappeared, right?

[717] And that's that.

[718] So people who are trying to figure out what happened, it's just that sound they have to listen to.

[719] It's the sound and saying it's not an aircraft.

[720] That's like the most haunting fucking sentence.

[721] And it's like, and I love aircrafts.

[722] I've spent my life caring about these things in every way.

[723] Yeah.

[724] This is not one.

[725] I am a bigger fan of aircraft than pilots are because I am here unpaid.

[726] And the word hovering.

[727] It's not flying.

[728] It's hovering and it's not an aircraft.

[729] Like that speaks volumes.

[730] So after that, contact is lost, and there are no more transmissions.

[731] And that his appearance is reported on the news the next morning, Fred isn't named, but his girlfriend, who's totally in love with him, and has been up all night because she was supposed to be with him that night, and he never came, and she's like, this is weird.

[732] She hears about it on the radio, calls the Department of Transportation, and they confirm that he is the missing pilot, and she just, you know, loses it.

[733] Almost immediately, she and Fred's family are inundated by reporters, and the UFO angle is reported quickly.

[734] Like, it becomes a UFO story.

[735] Yeah.

[736] A search and rescue effort also begins immediately both over the sea and on land.

[737] No traces of a wreckage are found, despite authorities knowing roughly where Fred was when his plane would have went down.

[738] And that fuel speculation that he didn't actually crash, but was abducted.

[739] So other people come forward claiming to have seen lights in the sky that night, but they only do it after it is reported that Fred saw a possible a UFO, you know, so you take him with a grain of salt.

[740] One man comes forward saying he believes he saw Fred's aircraft and a green light hovering above it.

[741] He says he'd been out in the early evening hunting rabbits with his nieces.

[742] And on the drive home, they saw what looked like an aircraft with a green light writing on the roof.

[743] And his two nieces confirmed the story.

[744] It was so unusual that they had pulled over to the side of the road to watch it.

[745] So like, it was a phenomenon.

[746] on.

[747] They could see the white lights of the airplane and then moving in tandem with them a large green light above it.

[748] And then about 20 people come forward saying they saw this green light as well.

[749] Some say it was lying erratically.

[750] Other people don't mention the green light specifically, but they do report signing a UFO or strange lights over the Bass Strait on the night of Friends disappearance.

[751] However, all these reports come after the UFO angle is widely reported, which of course leaves officials skeptical.

[752] I feel like Australia's got to be a great place to see UFOs, right?

[753] Yeah.

[754] Good point.

[755] That's the spot.

[756] It's like go to Savannah, Georgia, if you want to see ghosts, and go to Australia if you want to see aliens.

[757] Yeah.

[758] Out there in the ocean, not a lot of things fighting you.

[759] You're just kind of out there.

[760] So much sky.

[761] Mm -hmm.

[762] People are chill.

[763] So some people say that Fred was actually very interested in UFOs.

[764] And that's another thing, point to, and a report from the Australian government classifies him as, quote, a firm believer.

[765] His father tells the press that Fred had reported seeing a UFO from the ground a few years earlier, and his mother also had reported seeing one that year.

[766] And Fred had access to UFO reports from his posting in the Air Force.

[767] And so they were kind of on his mind.

[768] So he was, like, actively interested in UFOs.

[769] Fred's girlfriend, Rhonda, says that when they were stargazing, not that long before, he had said to her, quote, if a UFO came, I would love to go with it, but I'll never go without you.

[770] So they were on his mind.

[771] Yeah.

[772] But Fred's younger brother Richard maintains that Fred had a normal level of interest in UFOs and wasn't as obsessed as people may come out to be.

[773] And it's true, like there was a lot going on like in pop culture at the time around UFOs.

[774] In fact, close encounters of the third kind had just come out in Australia like that year.

[775] So people are thinking about it.

[776] Right.

[777] And in the weeks leading up to his disappearance, residents of King Island, where Fred was flying to, had already been reporting sites of strange bright lights in the sky.

[778] So he might have been thinking about it.

[779] And he had probably heard of these reports.

[780] And also, it's in 1978, as I said, like UFOs are just kind of generally in the zeitgeist.

[781] I remember well.

[782] Eight -year -old Karen staring up into that big Northern California night's guy.

[783] That's right.

[784] Anything's possible.

[785] I do remember somebody making a joke on the late night shows.

[786] They kept making jokes about the pile of mashed potatoes that the guy made.

[787] This means something.

[788] So that was how, it was like the first time I had like a movie kind of like lightly spoiled because it's like, well, I don't know what this is, but it looks stupid.

[789] And I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have really cared anyway, but pile of mashed potatoes.

[790] It means something.

[791] Okay.

[792] So in 2012, an old file from the Department of Transport's investigation into the incident from way back then is uncovered.

[793] And it points to the idea that Fred's career as a pilot was not going well.

[794] People who flew with Fred think he's a good pilot and careful.

[795] But on one occasion, he crosses into restricted airspace.

[796] And on two other occasions, he flies into clouds, which I guess is frowned upon.

[797] I don't know.

[798] Oh, I would think that would be like a big plus.

[799] It would be kind of fun.

[800] No, I think that's where you get turbulence, right?

[801] It's like clouds.

[802] Oh, especially if he doesn't know how to use the instruments.

[803] Right, exactly.

[804] So they believe he did it deliberately, and he was potentially going to be prosecuted for this at the time he disappeared.

[805] It's also revealed that he had twice failed his commercial pilot's license.

[806] So things aren't going great.

[807] His dream is dying.

[808] Yeah.

[809] Yeah.

[810] He's like fucking 20, though.

[811] Like he's 20 years old.

[812] But it's like when you have that obsession where he's like, I saw myself from the time I was a child as a pilot.

[813] Totally.

[814] And then just to continually be told like, well, you're actually not going to be able to do that.

[815] the official way.

[816] Just awful.

[817] Definitely.

[818] The report doesn't reach a conclusion, but it implies that Fred may have intentionally crashed his plane.

[819] Like, that's the direction they're going with.

[820] And revisiting the case, Department of Transport officials now say that the tone of that report was too accusatory.

[821] They leaned toward the idea that external circumstances, though not necessarily aliens, led to the crash.

[822] So maybe he believed that there were aliens or a UFO, but it was something else.

[823] So they're like not accusing him of intentionally crashing his plane.

[824] Right, right.

[825] So some people believe Fred may have become disoriented and was flying upside down and was seeing lights from the King Island and Cape Otway lighthouses reflected in the water.

[826] No, he was shaking your head.

[827] There's no way.

[828] Because to become upside down, it's not like he would be so disoriented.

[829] He wouldn't know that his, like, gravity was pulling him the wrong direction.

[830] Well, it's funny because one pilot is quoting saying that Fred, surely would have noticed if he was flying upside down.

[831] He says, quote, in that half light, the pilot would have soon known if the aircraft had started to turn upside down.

[832] The carpet comes out of the floor and the butts fall out of the ashtray, which I love.

[833] It's just put you at a time and place that doesn't exist any longer.

[834] That's so right.

[835] All those cigarettes, you've been smoking in the past hour, they would have, in your plane, near fuel.

[836] With your little side window open so you could smoke a butt, Because just to pass the time, that's so funny.

[837] And the carpet's absolutely flammable and just like, like, yeah, you know, bowling alley carpet.

[838] Yeah, it's bowling alley carpet that's loose.

[839] It wasn't glued down correctly.

[840] So that's the funniest.

[841] Yeah.

[842] But there's another flying phenomenon that would have been less obvious to Fred.

[843] And I think this one's really interesting.

[844] When the sun sets over water, it can create the illusion that the horizon is tilted because part of the horizon is still illuminated and the rest is dark.

[845] Don't ask me to explain that.

[846] I, won't and I can't.

[847] I need the levels of that.

[848] Please.

[849] Go into it.

[850] There's no levels.

[851] Pilots who don't remember to look at their instruments or don't trust what their instruments are telling them or haven't learned that can compensate for this by trying to get the wings level in relation to what they think is the true horizon.

[852] I mean, that makes sense.

[853] You know what I'm saying, right?

[854] Yeah.

[855] So they're like, here's the line.

[856] That's where I'm like my plane is, but it's not the line.

[857] what they're really doing is banking a turn and they enter the turn so slowly that their inner ear fluid doesn't move which I guess is the thing that tells you something's going on and they don't register that they're tilted and they think they're straight and level when actually they're getting into a tighter and tighter turn yeah Karen's doing something with her hand and I just wish you could see it it's exactly making myself see it as the as a turn would be very very slight but the further you'd go so subtle uh -huh yeah Yeah, because you're following a line that's not really straight.

[858] And this could result in something called the graveyard spiral, which doesn't sound promising.

[859] I have been there.

[860] It's awful.

[861] Those mornings.

[862] But people believe that this is what happened to John F. Kennedy Jr. when he crashed his plane into the Atlantic Ocean in 1999.

[863] That's wild, right?

[864] Like if, you know, John F. Kennedy Jr. was a season pilot, and he just easily, you know, succumb to that.

[865] Who among us?

[866] Who among us that are us hopeful pilots?

[867] Right.

[868] And people who are like, it's the same thing as like I heard the thing where as a pilot you can't look at the ground or then you'll start aiming toward the ground.

[869] Have you heard of that one?

[870] Your hands go where your brain goes, kind of a thing?

[871] Yeah.

[872] And then you get, maybe it's the, that's the spiral that you're talking about where you get locked into this thing and you can't stop doing it.

[873] Yeah.

[874] It's almost hypnotic.

[875] I think flying it should, we should review it and take it into account and really decide whether we should be doing it at all.

[876] The shins, no. They wrote that song about it.

[877] Okay.

[878] A 2013 report says that it's possible that the four lights Fred saw were actually Mercury, Venus, Mars and a bright star called Antares.

[879] And together that night, these planets and the star would have formed a diamond -shaped and Venus would have been particularly bright.

[880] And Fred, we know, was already at least somewhat interested in UFOs and it's possible that he saw them and thought, like, this is it.

[881] This is my moment, you know?

[882] like he was kind of excited about it.

[883] That seems a little far -fetched to me. And he could have become distracted and entered the graveyard spiral before or after this sighting.

[884] It just doesn't explain hovering.

[885] It doesn't explain.

[886] I don't think you would look at stars in the sky no matter how bright they were and go they're above me hovering.

[887] Well, if you're doing a spiral and you're seeing it above you, they're staying in this.

[888] I mean, I don't think this is the answer, but this could have created the illusion that the lights were orbiting Fred.

[889] when really he was starting to spin around in tighter and tighter circles.

[890] He was the one spinning, not the thing around him.

[891] Oh, yeah, okay.

[892] Proponents of this theory think that this could also explain the engine trouble, Fred reported, and the strange noise at the end of his last transmission, the can on the floor.

[893] The engine of the Cessna 182, L, as you know and love, Karen, is fed by gravity.

[894] So if it were inverted or tilted, the fuel wouldn't be getting into the, I don't know how fuel works.

[895] Engine, does fuel go into the engine?

[896] It wouldn't be doing that.

[897] Here's the thing.

[898] It can't tilt.

[899] That's all I know.

[900] Right.

[901] It's like when you're almost out of gas and you're harked on a hill and you were like, I'll get gas later.

[902] Yeah.

[903] Your car won't fucking start.

[904] You just put yourself out of fully and officially out of gas where you thought you were fine.

[905] Yeah.

[906] Yeah.

[907] We've all done it.

[908] I like the idea that like airplane gas is completely.

[909] different where it's like don't put it on its side.

[910] Right.

[911] And this could also explain the green light people saw from the ground, which some described as flying erratically.

[912] And the rabbit hunter guy and his nieces said it was moving perfectly in sync with the aircraft below it.

[913] One of the lights on one of the wings of the Cessna 182L, as you know, Karen, is green.

[914] And if Fred had been baking a steep turn, this light would have appeared above the white lights on the plane moving with it consistently.

[915] Yeah.

[916] So it would look like a green light by itself that's just doing what the plane is doing.

[917] Right.

[918] But it's actually on the plane.

[919] Exactly.

[920] Yeah.

[921] All right.

[922] So in 1983, so a few years later, a part of an airplane called a Cowell Flap washes up on a beach on a place called Flinders Island.

[923] It's about 219 miles away from King Island, across from the Bass Strait.

[924] experts agree that the flap is definitely from a Cessna 182L, but they disagree on whether it came from Fred's plane as there have been other Cessna crashes in the area in recent years.

[925] So like that's just like the biggest piece of the puzzle.

[926] Is it or isn't it?

[927] If it isn't and no pieces of his plane has ever been found, that's to me, it's like aliens.

[928] Some say the strong current along the ocean floor could have dragged the piece of debris over while others think that it wouldn't have made it that far at all.

[929] Fred's younger brother Richard said in 2014 that authorities should run tests on the cowlap because you can tell how long the plane had been in the water based on those tests.

[930] But he's gotten the runaround and it's possible that authorities have misplaced that cowlap between the early 80s and now.

[931] It is weird.

[932] I will just say this.

[933] Being anti -alian personally, just vibes -wise.

[934] Yeah.

[935] That when stuff like this happens and then there's just nothing left over and know this and no, whereas normally they'd go out and three days later be able to find stuff floating in the water.

[936] Yeah, they'd like prove it almost too well that it wasn't an alien, right?

[937] Right.

[938] Yes.

[939] But that's the U .S., not Australia.

[940] They do it different over there.

[941] Maybe.

[942] You know some fucking ex cop has that cowlap as his DIY coffee table at his home.

[943] Right?

[944] He brings his friends into the garage and he's like, I don't know, I've got some theories.

[945] He just has it at his house for himself.

[946] Shit.

[947] Shit.

[948] Find that at an estate sale.

[949] My God.

[950] So Fred's sweet father dies in 2000 without ever knowing what happened to his son.

[951] And he seemed really adamant to like find out.

[952] He was definitely on top of it.

[953] He always dismissed the idea that his son would have intentionally crashed his own plane.

[954] He believes Fred was abducted saying, quote, I have a very strong feeling that my son is still alive and is being.

[955] held by someone from another world end quote oh i know ronda fred's girlfriend at the time she's now in her early 60s and says she has never really moved on just recently in 2020 she got a tattoo on her arm v h ds j 21 october in 1978 1912 22 which is fred's tail number and the date and time he lost contact she got that tattooed on her arm it's so hard heartbreaking, a 16 -year -old, like, your first love and your hopefully soon -to -be -husband.

[956] Like, what a horrible loss.

[957] I know.

[958] She's never gotten over it.

[959] And that is the story of the mysterious disappearance of the young aviator Frederick Valentitch.

[960] Wow.

[961] 20 years old.

[962] I think it's a big story in Australia.

[963] It's one of those, like, enduring mysteries that they love so much.

[964] Yeah.

[965] Well, because I think it's incredible that there were eyewitnesses.

[966] is like it's so much more than just like somebody's story of like I was out on a road and I saw weird lights or whatever it's like there's much more official stuff happening and people that he's supposed to be reporting into and you know like we saw what we saw and then the recording and to me the recording is so fragmented like I think he's really reacting to something rather than a planned speech to make it seem like he's being abducted by a UFO I feel like if he were intentionally disappearing or intentionally crashing his plane and wanted to make it seem like a UFO is abducting him, it would have been more specific.

[967] And this wasn't.

[968] Yeah.

[969] And I also, and this is just my personal opinion, but I just don't, the idea that he's like, well, I'm just going to crash this plane.

[970] Yeah.

[971] Just doesn't seem very.

[972] I just don't think that's how the average person is built where it's like, I have this huge disappointment.

[973] Yes.

[974] But he seemed to be the kind of person who had similar disappointments in the past.

[975] And like, was like, well, I'll just become an unpaid employee and learn what I can.

[976] And, like, he seemed to be the kind of person that did something about it, made the best of it or whatever.

[977] And he had an engagement ring on Layaway, too.

[978] So, like, he had plans for the future, I know.

[979] Right.

[980] Yeah.

[981] That was great.

[982] Great job.

[983] Thank you.

[984] And yet another, we have to dog ear this mystery to see if we ever in our lifetimes come back.

[985] What if he came back and he was the same age he was when he disappeared?

[986] And that's my like, holy shit moment.

[987] And like, then we know.

[988] That's, you know what that is, is your, that is your new Hulu series where it's just like, well, the town.

[989] What was the one?

[990] The, there is, this is actually a thing that I'm stealing the idea from, from like the 80s.

[991] Of a TV show?

[992] Yeah.

[993] Well, there is that French one where all the dead people come back and they're just around.

[994] No, this is like an 80s movie, Flight of the Navigator.

[995] Oh, is he from the 40s?

[996] I actually don't know.

[997] Yeah, Flight of the Navigator.

[998] A 12 -year -old.

[999] lives with this family, awakens from being accidentally knocked out, finds that eight years have passed, and he had been abducted by aliens.

[1000] So he, like, knocks on the door eight years later.

[1001] Oh, my God.

[1002] Flight of the Navigator.

[1003] Oh, my God.

[1004] That movie was next level as a kid.

[1005] That must have been my right when I was practicing drinking as hard as I could.

[1006] And I wasn't seeing these movies.

[1007] I get it.

[1008] I totally missed my so -called life completely because I was doing drugs.

[1009] Like, I should have, like, these touchstones in my life of them, of that show, and I fucking don't.

[1010] That's such a great show.

[1011] That is such well -made television, because it was a teenager's show.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] It was a parents' show.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] There was, it was, it was, we just want the hot guy show.

[1016] They had something for everyone.

[1017] The angst.

[1018] The friends, your friends.

[1019] Yeah.

[1020] So real.

[1021] That whole thing of, like, the girl that she was friends with that she didn't want to be friends with anymore who was mad at her.

[1022] Yeah.

[1023] It's so sad.

[1024] And so what everybody goes through.

[1025] I was actually off doing teenage angst shit at the time.

[1026] Yeah, you were living it.

[1027] You weren't in the position to watch it on TV.

[1028] You had it in front of your face.

[1029] We weren't going to.

[1030] Wow.

[1031] Okay.

[1032] Should we quickly do some?

[1033] Let's find out.

[1034] Let's find out what you guys, what do you guys even doing right now is our new question.

[1035] What are you even doing right now?

[1036] You tell us what you're doing while you're listening to my favorite murder.

[1037] We love it.

[1038] You want to go?

[1039] you go.

[1040] Sure.

[1041] Mine is from, it's a hashtag, what are you even doing right now?

[1042] So this is from Instagram and the handle is Emma G -A -W -R -O -N.

[1043] So it's G -A -R -O -N or Emma G -A -R -R -on.

[1044] I don't know, Emma, what you're doing.

[1045] But I know what you're saying to us about what you're doing right now and you're saying, I am listening to the podcast while moving fixtures in the department store I work at and placing new goods out on the floor before the store opens.

[1046] And then it's says dot, dot, dot, dot, a bit creepy.

[1047] That's how the movie mannequin starts.

[1048] That's right.

[1049] Get ready.

[1050] Cute.

[1051] I love it.

[1052] This one's from Gmail.

[1053] It says, hello.

[1054] I've been a listener from the beginning.

[1055] When you first started the podcast, I was 17 years old in high school, listening to True Crime Podcasts in between classes.

[1056] Fast forward to now, I'm 25 and a forensic analyst working on reducing my state's sexual assault kit backlog.

[1057] Oh, my God.

[1058] I listen to MFM along with many other exactly right media podcasts while performing my analysis of these kits.

[1059] Sometimes it feels like you all are in the lab with me, smiley face.

[1060] From my pimply high school days, lost college years to now where I'm in my dream job, working hard to bring answers to victims in these horrific crimes.

[1061] Y 'all have been here throughout at all.

[1062] Thank you so much for talking about breakdowns in our criminal justice system and about mental health.

[1063] Stay sexy.

[1064] Don't get murdered and follow your dreams while listening to your favorite podcast.

[1065] S. S, congratulations.

[1066] You really came out of that high school phase of being goth and you went right into an adult phase of being goth.

[1067] So amazing.

[1068] So proud of you.

[1069] So good.

[1070] Yeah.

[1071] Great work.

[1072] Thank you.

[1073] It's important.

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] Whatever you guys are doing right now, thank you so much for listening to this.

[1076] We really appreciate you guys.

[1077] We do.

[1078] And if you're doing something that you think we'll find interesting, it doesn't have to be as big as S's or as crucial.

[1079] as Emma G .R. ones.

[1080] Yeah.

[1081] You could be baking.

[1082] You could be walking your dog.

[1083] You could be...

[1084] Just want to slice a life.

[1085] We just want a little...

[1086] If Frank wrote an email into this podcast, he'd be like, guys, I'm just loving barking while you record.

[1087] It's what...

[1088] It's my passion, and thank you so much for helping me do it.

[1089] It's been eight and a half years.

[1090] I've been with you guys from the beginning, barking the whole time.

[1091] Barking all through COVID.

[1092] That's how Frank has gotten through it.

[1093] All right.

[1094] Thanks, everybody.

[1095] Thank you.

[1096] Stay sexy.

[1097] And don't get murdered.

[1098] Goodbye.

[1099] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1100] This has been an exactly right production.

[1101] Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1102] Our managing producers, Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1103] Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[1104] This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachie.

[1105] Our researchers are Marin McClashin and Ali Elkin.

[1106] Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[1107] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[1108] Goodbye!