221 - Symbolic Violins

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hello.

[2] Hello.

[3] Welcome.

[4] Welcome to the whole time.

[5] My favorite murder.

[6] The podcast.

[7] Intanum.

[8] In tandem.

[9] Shit.

[10] Exactly at the same time.

[11] Exactly.

[12] On exactly at the same time media.

[13] That's right.

[14] That's Karen Kilgare.

[15] That's George Hart Stark.

[16] Hi.

[17] How are you?

[18] Coming at you from our individual homes.

[19] Mm -hmm.

[20] Hmm.

[21] As per.

[22] Mm -hmm.

[23] We're not protesting anything.

[24] We're staying home.

[25] You know why?

[26] Because it's just what you're supposed to do when you don't want to get a virus and give it to other people.

[27] The highly deadly virus, no one knows how it works.

[28] Stay home.

[29] And when you scream into the law enforcement faces, it turns out it doesn't help at all.

[30] It hinders, some would say.

[31] Strong start.

[32] We've done it again.

[33] Yeah.

[34] There we go.

[35] I mean, let's just make this a fucking political podcast at this point.

[36] How do we talk about anything else?

[37] Oh, man. Well, it's kind of being shoved down our throats all the time.

[38] That's why we do this podcast so you can escape.

[39] This is the escape hatch from that reality into the one we've decided to create.

[40] And you should absolutely be wary of the fact that the escape hatch of reality to make you feel better is a murder podcast.

[41] Yes.

[42] Please know.

[43] Please read the post -it note that we stuck on the escape hatch before we went through it first.

[44] And it says, beware all ye who enter here type of thing.

[45] It's two women talking.

[46] It's a murder podcast.

[47] What's a podcast?

[48] It's one big, God forbid.

[49] So get ready.

[50] It's one big, God forbid.

[51] That's the best.

[52] How are you doing with your stability and house and, living in it well I mean that all that's fine I did I was I think yesterday was a breaking point for a lot of people I was getting lots of texts like hey I'm freaking out ha ha ha ha so tonight actually technically although in our reality it's two nights away got it's a full moon and I think that has an effect on people especially when you're indoors and you need to be indoors yeah so just I don't know I would say keep conscious of details like that that might be affecting you.

[53] What does it do?

[54] Turn to do into a werewolf?

[55] Well, you know, like every time there's a full moon, like crime in normal times, crime spikes like crazy.

[56] People get a little nuts.

[57] It's like kind of like mercury in retrograde.

[58] I think so.

[59] Only the moon has much more of a true direct scientific.

[60] You know, we're made of water.

[61] The moon affects the tides and our periods and all those things.

[62] Push, pull.

[63] There's all that.

[64] It's all happening.

[65] Extra pushed, extra pulled this week.

[66] Stay aware.

[67] So, yeah, I think there was a little bit of that kind of, I had a couple, you know, we had a couple things we had to get done on the phone that felt like way bigger deals than they normally threw.

[68] I almost cried in a business meeting, Zoom, which was so, did you, did you notice last week when I almost started crying?

[69] Oh, I was so embarrassed.

[70] I was just like, get it together.

[71] together.

[72] No. Yeah.

[73] Okay.

[74] Was that when it was just the four of us though?

[75] Yeah.

[76] Yeah.

[77] Yeah.

[78] And I did, I thought, okay.

[79] Um, I did notice it.

[80] But I thought it was something else.

[81] So that I was just kind of like, what?

[82] That was getting my period.

[83] I, no. I remember I said, are you okay?

[84] Oh, yeah.

[85] Yeah.

[86] Yeah.

[87] And you were like, yeah.

[88] And then I was like, oh, that's, I hope she didn't think that was me being mean.

[89] Oh, no. I was really doing it.

[90] But that's the weird part.

[91] And it is.

[92] this part is driving me crazy.

[93] It's very difficult.

[94] You and I have almost, I feel sometimes a like a psychic connection where I don't have to say a lot of stuff to you.

[95] Yes.

[96] I really don't feel the need to because I know that you're already there.

[97] I wish you wouldn't.

[98] I mean, I do.

[99] I know I do a lot.

[100] But and so it's more difficult and it's very frustrating to me to have to podcast with you when there's like, say, a delay or a thing.

[101] I don't get.

[102] that the high of the connection no i mean it's almost like we need to start recording our phone calls because those are so funny and fun and like very but then yeah then it would ruin that and it wouldn't make any sense anymore i know i know it's just it's just an odd like that part of the adjustment those are the things i'm missing and feeling is like when people go like a human connection but there really is that thing where it makes me feel like i am when i feel i am connected to other people.

[103] Yeah.

[104] It's very important, it turns out.

[105] Yeah, it is.

[106] I almost cried the other night thinking of like hugging the first time I'm going to hug someone besides Vince or a cat.

[107] It's going to be so emotional, I feel like, you know, it's just going to feel like, I feel like for the first, it's going to be like when World War II ended for the first fucking couple of weeks, everyone's just going to be, you know, basking in these experiences that they haven't been able to do in three years, hopefully.

[108] I think, I mean, Yeah, really, when it actually ends up because people won't stop going out.

[109] Anyway, and it ends up lasting for a half a decade.

[110] Arresting black people and giving white people masks.

[111] Tickets.

[112] You know, exactly.

[113] The total disparity of justice in this country anyway.

[114] Anywho.

[115] Anyhow.

[116] We promised you this was an escape and we're.

[117] We're escaping you right to the front page of every newspaper that you've had to read this whole time.

[118] That's right.

[119] The perfect escape.

[120] I will say this.

[121] how I am escaping.

[122] And I don't know why I found it so soothing.

[123] Scandinavian police procedurals, much like their furniture, are so beautiful.

[124] And there's one, there's a couple I've been watching that I really binged.

[125] One is called The Truth Will Out.

[126] And it's really well done, really well made.

[127] I think that one is on Netflix.

[128] Can't remember.

[129] Everything is either on Netflix or Amazon.

[130] That one is great and the characters are amazing.

[131] So it turns into like it's a cold case team that's kind of rag tag.

[132] Yeah.

[133] Love a rag tag group of anything.

[134] And both so well written, like so realistically, wonderfully well written.

[135] And then this one I just started is called Trapped and it's Icelandic.

[136] And the main guy is this huge.

[137] I mean like let's be honest, he's a bear.

[138] He's like a bear.

[139] He's huge and hairy and has a big beard.

[140] And he's really, gruff and he is small town Iceland trying to solve these murders and you're like maybe I need a move to this town for real I'm going there the second warranty is lifted and we're yeah it's like come on it's really cool but and they also it's the thing where in the middle of a full on foreign procedural everyone starts speaking English when they have to talk to other people they'll just be speaking English with no accent where you're just like man that's cool you're like I'm sorry but thank you.

[141] I really appreciate it.

[142] Could never do it.

[143] I mean, I try to start taking Icelandic language lessons, but I would need the full five years.

[144] That's right.

[145] Oh, God, it's five.

[146] By the time I get there, I'm saying.

[147] When this quarantine is lifted.

[148] And then she gets to move there.

[149] What else do you want to?

[150] I keep seeing a title of a show that I drunkenly wrote down to recommend.

[151] and laughing out loud.

[152] Like, it's, it's like, I have, like, Atlanta's missing and murdered on HBO and Evan in the Green River.

[153] Like, and then just in the middle of it is a show called Flipping 101 on HGTV.

[154] That I am so obsessed with.

[155] It's so good.

[156] And it's just people redoing houses?

[157] It's this guy.

[158] He got losing their shit.

[159] It's this guy, Terrick, he had a, he got a divorce from his wife who they had a flipping show.

[160] And so now he kind of.

[161] that gets this like short end of the stick show of having to deal with people who have never flipped houses before while she's going off to like marry some dude in Orange County and live this beautiful house and I just shit pale for this guy so much.

[162] Wait, is that this is that written into the show or it's just like do you or you just know if you follow HGTV like we do then you know okay like you know who it and he just he seems so I feel so bad for him yeah well you don't want to be a a famous couple and then break up no and then get the short end well I mean how do you yeah I guess you're right if you're if you're like immediately marry a hot person she married a hot person she got pregnant she's so beautiful they've moved in this huge lovely house and they're like remodeling friends houses together and he just isn't like Alhambra remodeling like the saddest house he's got one of those really bad like goate he's grown out of a divorce goatee that's not working.

[163] Oh my God, how many divorce goatees are out there?

[164] We've seen them where it's just like, I get it.

[165] You're changing it up.

[166] Try to change something.

[167] You got to try.

[168] I get it.

[169] My divorce goatee is 50 pounds.

[170] So guess what?

[171] No judgment.

[172] Do your thing.

[173] Divorce goatee is different.

[174] It's all different.

[175] And there's no judging.

[176] Comfort yourself however you can, whether it's horrible facial hair or nonstop mac and cheese.

[177] Do your thing.

[178] Yeah.

[179] I mean, these days, here's something that isn't really anything I recommend per se, because it might not be interesting to anybody else, but sometimes at night, because I don't want to go anywhere and I don't want to introduce anything new into my household.

[180] So I'll just make myself like a cassadier or something very basic with my basic culinary skills.

[181] But then I just read postmates.

[182] Like I'll just see what restaurants are still open in my neighborhood.

[183] It's one of my favorite hobbies.

[184] It really is where I'm like, I would get this and this.

[185] And then I just, like, close it all.

[186] Just shut it down.

[187] Scrolling postmates?

[188] Sometimes I open it and I'm like, oh, what's new?

[189] Like, what's new in my neighborhood?

[190] Even though I'm not going to...

[191] No. I know all the neighborhoods.

[192] I know all the restaurants in my neighborhood.

[193] I know most of them by heart.

[194] And it was very scary and very...

[195] You can kind of...

[196] It's a real measuring stick, postmates, because, you know, a week after the quarantine was announced, a ton of restaurants just went off entirely.

[197] Yeah.

[198] And then you're just like, oh, no, I hope those come back.

[199] And, you know, getting so worried.

[200] Then there's all those restaurants.

[201] restaurants that got super creative and you want us to send you a bunch of flour and bread and sugar we can totally and there's like a biscuit window near one of the places near my house where they just like make different kinds of biscuit sandwiches and it's just like what go up to the yeah oh I'm selling my house moving into yours hello so creative yeah I love it's a great idea all the pantry items and shit I know it's super cool there's so many places it's that that thing too where I'm kind sometimes I'm scrolling going what if I made some thing.

[202] It's like, you're not going to.

[203] But then it's, or what if I got a full Italian family dinner?

[204] Like, what if I got this wall to wall carbs in here?

[205] And then I'm like, close the window.

[206] Oh, man. Vince was doing like an order on Costco.

[207] And he was like, I got this.

[208] I got that.

[209] I got.

[210] And then he said, I have, I got ravioli lasagna.

[211] And I was like, hold up.

[212] What?

[213] So instead of the lasagna, pasta sheets it's just ravioli so it's like double timing it's double the pleasure double the fun front back front back these are the times we're living in to remember get it yeah eat it eat ravioli lasagna like i mean how do you not how do you not turn to pasta in days like this how do you not go that's the solution all the all rules are off here which is fun and nice and kind of teaching me like a better way you know like just don't eat all the bread but you can have bread but you can have bread have really nice nicely made bread not and really enjoy it don't like beat yourself up while you're eating it totally i i what i'm doing is it as a small celebration for myself is using a very large cereal oh it's too big have you done that where you're just like this is easily three bowls of cereal but let's see what happens no that i i have eaten three bowls of cereal in a row but i've never in my life thought to get a bigger bowl of cereal.

[214] Like that's somehow not allowed in my life.

[215] It shouldn't be normally, but now it is.

[216] And it is now.

[217] It is now.

[218] I love it.

[219] You know, this has taught me two things about myself.

[220] One is that I don't want to bake bread and I never want to bake bread and I have no fucking interest in baking bread, even though everyone's baking bread.

[221] How though?

[222] That whole thing of starting your wheat, the sourdough starter and yeast and it's a lie.

[223] They call it a mother out of here.

[224] And you have to put flour everywhere.

[225] It's like, and it tells you to make a mess.

[226] You touch it so much.

[227] You touch flour.

[228] You put it on this.

[229] You add more flour.

[230] Keep rolling.

[231] Flower.

[232] And it's disgusting.

[233] If your whole hand inside it, you make sure your hand gets all over it.

[234] That's right.

[235] All bread is 50 % someone's palm sweat.

[236] Oh, God.

[237] Yeah.

[238] Now eat your fucking bread.

[239] I'd rather it not be mine, I guess.

[240] And also that puzzle, I have no interest in puzzles.

[241] And I fucking tried.

[242] I got a puzzle of like my favorite photo of me and Vince.

[243] We're both taking swigs of beer on stage at the same time.

[244] So it's just like a can of PBR and both of our faces.

[245] Got it.

[246] Made it as a puzzle.

[247] Literally poured everything out and was like, I don't want to do this.

[248] Now, can I just give you a tiny bit of puzzle guidance to take or leave?

[249] Please.

[250] I have no interest.

[251] Yes.

[252] When we do calls that are not Zoom calls, that's all I'm doing, baby.

[253] puzzle time I need to there's no I should be into it but however yeah and how okay you know what also it is sometimes and you have to have this experience maybe to really have it start feeling like it's paying off but sometimes I just stare at the puzzle for a really long time and then I'll just pick up a piece and put it in immediate like it feels like puzzle psychic ability and that's what keeps me coming back for more because suddenly I think I have this idea in my head, I'm good at puzzles.

[254] Well, that is what's cool.

[255] Just crossed my mind that you can get better at puzzles.

[256] It's not just like you're always going to suck as bad as you suck at puzzles.

[257] It's like your skills get better and better.

[258] And it's a little, it's almost like, can you face, this reminds me of, like, I can do puzzles now because of I think the fact that I'm middle aged and like in a place in my life where I'm actively practicing like patients and things that I have never.

[259] been able to even approach before and it reminds me of like when I was in my late 20s on speed at like Buffalo Exchange watching the girl that worked there go through someone's garbage bag filled with clothes and she would take something out look at it and then fold it and she just very slowly where I was standing there going like oh my God if I had to do that like I was flipping out like how are you doing this and how are you doing it so calmly and why do you like it and And this is awful.

[260] It's like zen almost where she's just like, this is like origami or something where it's just Right.

[261] You have to make sense of it.

[262] Not on speed.

[263] Right.

[264] Oh, that's everything.

[265] Speaking of.

[266] It took me 20 years to realize that.

[267] Birthdays.

[268] Do you want to talk about your birthday?

[269] We can cut this out.

[270] Speaking of birthday.

[271] I feel like everyone who's having a birthday and during this time, we now will understand what it's like for kids.

[272] who have their birthdays during the summer.

[273] Which is why I have an idea to have a birthday blowout for everybody who has a quarantine birthday when the quarantine end.

[274] That's a great.

[275] Everyone in the world will all just...

[276] I mean, we'll see who I feel comfortable giving my address to, but for the most part, we'll have all the, like, all the birthdays where we're going to get stuck indoors and we'll just have a kind of a...

[277] Someone just pulled into my driveway.

[278] Oh, no. They're only turning around.

[279] I pull out a rifle I like the idea of like a party that might go all weekend long Oh yeah You can stay here You can get a room at the hotel down the street But like let's just do it Bring your dog and like blow it out Hang out Can people bring their dogs Build a dog park in the back yeah Do you know I get like I get Like disappointed in a visceral level When I find out there's not any pets At the party I'm going to you know yeah yeah that means there's no escape hatch for you that's right that's right yeah all right um what else do you have oh can i see no i just asked you a question what else i'm gonna let you answer it no go ahead i don't think i have anything else um i just oh are you gonna do a podcast no no oh yeah i can go ahead do it do it oh that's what i was gonna i was gonna recommend and i know i've recommended it before but my favorite um one of my favorite podcast who is a, I think, a clinical psychologist and a Buddhist teacher, Tara Brock.

[280] She's doing a series now, and it's called Sheltering in Love, and it's all about dealing with the feelings of being in quarantine and the frustrations that come out of it and the feelings that come up and kind of how to hang.

[281] And it's very, she's really good.

[282] Yeah.

[283] Like, I think she started it, you know, four, three, well, I guess seven weeks ago.

[284] Seven years ago.

[285] she started it when this happened um who knows but there's now like five there's like five or six um episodes of it and it's just really helpful like i get up in the morning and as i'm doing you know the dishes are doing kind of things around the house i stick it in and it's just a really nice level set so if anyone's looking for if anyone feels a little spinny or like my thoughts are taking over oh i think this or i think that or whatever you're targeting me right now yeah pointing in your face with my words.

[286] It's just, I find it so helpful.

[287] Yeah, she's incredible.

[288] She's just one of the best.

[289] Speaking of, I finally started listening to Unlocking us with Brunei Brown.

[290] And I, you know, I started and it was like, I know everything she says and then of course, I listened to the first few seconds of an episode and burst into tears, which doesn't fucking happen to me. What are you talking about?

[291] It was, let me see.

[292] Hold on one second.

[293] Oh, it was, okay, so it was the episode, Dr. Mark Brackett, who does.

[294] studies emotions and teaches us like how to feel and he said something that happened in his childhood and how hard it was as a kid to like understand what's going on fucking started crying and then there's another episode that I really love called um that's just her talking it's called it's just brine on anxiety calm and over under functioning and it's just a 30 minute episode and you just like learn so much and everything makes sense she started calling like your family that you were born into.

[295] She calls it your first family.

[296] And that just calmed me in so many ways where it's like that's not your chosen family.

[297] That is the first family that you were born into.

[298] And then you get a move on from that if you want.

[299] And that's just like I really stuck with me. So.

[300] And also your the family that you are born into, your family, your first family or whatever you want to call it, is also I always compared my family to every family on TV.

[301] And because I did that, um, did you think, think I was going to say every other family around.

[302] Yeah.

[303] Oh, yeah, no. I was always doing it to TV.

[304] That's, wow.

[305] Yeah.

[306] So then I would be like, I remember one time in like, you know, fourth grade when I was like, like trying to confront my mom about that fact she had a job and she wasn't waiting at home when I got home from school to give me cookies.

[307] Like who?

[308] And she, like, like, you know, Mrs. Cunningham or whatever, like any TV mom.

[309] And she just literally, she was like, are you kidding me?

[310] It was like this thing of like, what are you talking about?

[311] Like, I have to work to pay for your stuff.

[312] Yeah.

[313] You know, and I mean, like, that's not real.

[314] But I just, because that's the idea, you start getting these ideas in your head as a kid.

[315] And if no one, if no one interrupts and goes, yeah, that's not realistic.

[316] That's pretty much everybody's mom has to, you know, either work or the job of being at home is work.

[317] Yeah.

[318] No one's sitting there with their hair done and a bunch of lipstick.

[319] on going, honey, I mean, do you kidding.

[320] Yeah.

[321] It's very rare.

[322] Very rare.

[323] Yeah, TV, yeah, that's hard.

[324] I did that with 902 and oh, and relationships until I was like 20, where I was like, this is how relationships are supposed to be so dramatic and fucking tumultuous.

[325] And then I was like, oh, you're just modeling after Brendan and Dylan and Brenda.

[326] Brenda, yeah.

[327] It's Shannon Doherty, friend of the pod.

[328] Shannon Doherty.

[329] Love you, girl.

[330] Bad ass.

[331] Shannon Doherty My sister We saw her at the Beverly Center The first time my sister came to visit me I know I've told you the story But the first time my sister came to visit me When I moved to Los Angeles We went to the Beverly Center And we were walking around And Shannon Doherty walked by And my sister's the only one who saw her I didn't even see her That's such a bummer And my sister looked over at her And she gave my sister a huge smile Like I think my sister had the like Dear in the headlights Like holy shit Because it was prime 9021010 era And she gave my sister this huge lovely smile like super nice and then she my sister's like oh my god she hadn't already just smiled at me i'm like bullshit because that's what sisters do sisters actually that's the person i've been texting the most during this time and like connecting with the most which is really nice my sister no mine although i did have i did talk to your sister on text did you she text me and i yeah we text a little bit my dad and your and uh no wait your dad and my husband have text a little bit just to check in that's the that's the love of a lifetime he definitely i'm not surprised that my dad texts vince because he asked me how vince is i would say every other phone call where i'm just like i mean this is sexism a yeah and then b what the like just ask him yourself if you're so interested vince is a fucking lumberjack at this point that beard it's like the third person in our quarantine now.

[332] It is majestic.

[333] I've asked him if I could put flowers in it and take a photo.

[334] It's like, I want to see a picture.

[335] Okay, I can see it.

[336] I'll send it to you.

[337] We can post it or I'll put flowers in it.

[338] It's pretty special.

[339] Is it long?

[340] It's robust.

[341] Oh, yeah.

[342] It's like going white.

[343] Yeah.

[344] And there's like all, it's like gray and there's red hair and there's whatever.

[345] I'm not, I don't need to talk about my husband's beard.

[346] Oh, speaking of.

[347] Sounds like you like him.

[348] Just speaking of my dad, so apparently, I don't know if you've heard about this, but Britney Spears has a home gym and she made a video on Instagram a couple days ago telling everybody that she left some candles burning in her home gym.

[349] And well, basically, she burned her home gym down.

[350] What?

[351] Yes.

[352] I didn't hear that.

[353] Yeah.

[354] And so people have been tweeting me the video and going, what would Jim think of this?

[355] Oh, yeah.

[356] And going, like, we need to know Jim's response.

[357] So I actually called my dad.

[358] Oh, my God.

[359] Oh, my God.

[360] I called him.

[361] And I'm like, dad, you're going to have to hang in there.

[362] Now, here's the problem.

[363] My dad lost one of his hearing aids somewhere during the quarantine.

[364] So he's still waiting for it to be mailed to him.

[365] Okay.

[366] So it takes a while to explain where I'm like, dad, do you remember the 90s pop star?

[367] It took a while.

[368] Then he's like, all right, okay.

[369] And then it gets mad at you because he's like, yeah, I know.

[370] what you're talking about.

[371] We're like, I've been explaining it to you.

[372] Yeah.

[373] And it takes so long that he thinks I just want him to acknowledge that she exists and then he changes the subject where I'm like, no, there's a story.

[374] So I love to him.

[375] Dad, she left two candles burning and basically burned down her home to him.

[376] And I can't, this isn't something I can respond to explain to people on Twitter, so I figured I would save it till now because he went, ha, and had this loud Santa Claus laugh.

[377] I can't even do It sounds joyous.

[378] It sounds joyous.

[379] He loved it.

[380] He thought it was hilarious where it's like, now that he's retired, the job is so far in the past, he can, I think, be more lighthearted about, he thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard.

[381] That seems really hard to do.

[382] Like, I think like these days, candles are made in such a way where it's, unless you put it under a curtain.

[383] Yeah.

[384] It's hard to light shit on fire with them.

[385] And we're going to get a bunch of.

[386] a message is telling me that's not fucking true, and I totally agree, and I know.

[387] I mean, but I think there's, in some ways, well, people are at least looking toward that a little bit more these days as candlemakers, but clearly there's a large chunk of that story that's missing on Brittany's part.

[388] That it's like, and like, so how many days did they burn?

[389] Like, what are you talking about that two candles brought down your home gym?

[390] Yeah.

[391] And who works out to candlelight is another question I have.

[392] Real.

[393] Are you on the elliptical, like, zipping wine with candles and some Richard Marks playing in the background?

[394] Cool.

[395] Home gym.

[396] A romantic workout?

[397] Hey, home gym.

[398] That's your dad's podcast.

[399] Oh, and then basically, so I told, I explained to him that people were asking what he thought about that on Twitter.

[400] And then he just went, I got fans.

[401] I got a fan.

[402] Jim.

[403] Jim.

[404] We're big fans.

[405] Home gym.

[406] Home gym.

[407] That's him during the quarantine.

[408] Okay, sorry.

[409] Oh, no, that was the best story.

[410] I wish you had led with, that was incredible.

[411] I wish it had been different.

[412] I know.

[413] Exactly right.

[414] Media, that's our podcast network that we started.

[415] And we have, of course, the new podcasts are bananas.

[416] And I said no gifts with Bridger Weiner, which was in Oprah.

[417] Oprah Magazine.

[418] Guys, congratulations to Bridger.

[419] That is...

[420] Oprah picked you, Bridger.

[421] It's like his first month or two of podcasting, and it's in Oprah already.

[422] Yes.

[423] It's very cool.

[424] We just found out before pressing record that if you go to iTunes and search exactly right, all the podcasts that are on our network come up and then some.

[425] So you can check out what's going on.

[426] Oh, this week Murder Squad, if you haven't heard it already, they get in.

[427] into the West Memphis 3, they got autopsy reports.

[428] Paul Holes digs into what the factual autopsy stuff is.

[429] Apparently, it's amazing.

[430] I haven't listened to it yet.

[431] I can't wait.

[432] It's what I'm going to do tomorrow.

[433] Billy actually texted me as like, did you listen to it?

[434] And I'm like, sorry.

[435] I have my own podcast.

[436] I've got some things to quarantine.

[437] But I can't wait.

[438] Apparently, it's great.

[439] And Paul is, you know, in his element.

[440] I love it.

[441] I can't wait.

[442] That's such a, that's such a case that I just can't, I can't not read or like, you know, look it up all the time and just, ugh, I hope it's solved one day.

[443] I know.

[444] It's amazing.

[445] And it's, it's so, that documentary, man, I will never forget watching it.

[446] I watched it at Margaret Cho's house.

[447] Paradise Lost.

[448] Yep.

[449] We watched it one night.

[450] John Travis was there.

[451] Abby Parker was there, me and Margaret.

[452] And we were like gripping the.

[453] seats.

[454] We were just like, whole, we were freaking out.

[455] It was amazing.

[456] It's insane.

[457] And there was recently an, like, two -part documentary called the forgotten West Memphis three, which is about the, you know, meaning the three boys who were murdered, those three West Memphis people.

[458] And it's, it's really good, too.

[459] And I think the theory is right that the stepdad did it.

[460] Yeah.

[461] Yeah.

[462] But it would just be so nice to know for sure.

[463] Yeah, for sure.

[464] because there's been so many theories and you get you get led down so many paths it's like so many things seem possible in that yeah in that situation it's crazy oh I have a really quick corrections corner yeah I said in the miniso this week this week I pronounced a city wrong shockingly really?

[465] Yeah New Hampshire town is pronounced Nashua not Nashaw County or Nashua Nashua Nashua Nashville.

[466] Sorry about that guys.

[467] New Hampshire?

[468] Yes.

[469] I mean, we need a corrections corner for next week, so I might as well.

[470] We really do.

[471] This is called creating content.

[472] That's how you do it.

[473] Yeah.

[474] We took a class.

[475] We took a class in influencing.

[476] An amazing class at Santa Monica City College.

[477] Ow.

[478] Okay.

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[498] Goodbye.

[499] Do you know what story I'm going to do this week?

[500] Tell me. I'm going to do the rescue of baby Jessica McClure.

[501] Shit.

[502] Going back to the 80s.

[503] Oh, good one.

[504] How have we not done that great one?

[505] Well, it's really out of the, it's well, underline, italicize.

[506] It's out of the normal true crime milieu, I would say.

[507] Yeah.

[508] But I was.

[509] you know we were talking about where I was like we can just do what we would like to talk about.

[510] We don't have to be so we don't have to adhere and then once I got into it as always happens once you start reading articles there is an unbelievable article by a writer named Lisa Belkin that was written in 1995 from the New York Times and it's called Death on the CNN curve and I recommend anybody read this article.

[511] It is an unbelievable expose about this time in the late 80s so I guess CNN started in 1980 it didn't really start making money until 1985 so before that it was just this kind of it was almost like C -SPAN it was 24 hour news that no one watched it was really boring and dull and it was just for I don't even know I don't know it was for but then you know mid to late 80s it started gaining a little bit of traction and this baby Jessica story is one of the things that started kicking off the 24 -hour news cycle.

[512] Disasters.

[513] People are just so interested in disasters.

[514] Right.

[515] But this was, yeah, I mean, if anyone relates, it's this team.

[516] I'm not shaming anyone.

[517] Right here, yeah.

[518] But it's just fascinating because before this time, and it's so difficult for a lot of people who weren't around for this, and it's odd to even think about now, like, there's this time in the late 70s, early 80s where nothing was branded.

[519] Like there wasn't stuff, brands of things sticking up all over.

[520] You didn't have, there wasn't that brand awareness.

[521] It would just be like, if there was a calendar on the wall, it would just be a willow tree.

[522] You know what I mean?

[523] It was just, you would, people just had a brown couch, a brown plaid couch and shag carpeting.

[524] You buy your couch from Sears or JCPenney.

[525] Or it's just the couch that was there when you moved into the house.

[526] Like it was, there was this real brown, low -key aspect of life.

[527] Nothing was sexy.

[528] Nothing was being advertised toward any demographic.

[529] It was all very kind of...

[530] If it was, it was like rich people.

[531] So it was like out of our eye shot.

[532] Or it was, yeah, or it was aspirational like the Bandesolet commercial.

[533] It was like the lady diving into the pool.

[534] You'll never be here by Band de Soleil.

[535] Right.

[536] I love that commercial anyway.

[537] So this is kind of about the time where the 24 -hour news cycle began to take off.

[538] And then I think that's another.

[539] reason why I was kind of went oh this would be good to talk about now yeah because now we are in this world where we're so used to it and we're so used to just getting constant information and kind of being left to the mercy of the 24 -hour news cycle whether or not we're choosing to participate it's a barrage yeah well you know but I was going to say this because at the end of the episode before this the live show that we posted two weeks ago I did say something about the news is trying to scare you and there was a couple reporters yeah tweeted at me like they were upset about it which it was like what I meant was the people who decide what goes on the news because I was absolutely wrong to say that in terms of how many journalists are out there you know risking it all to tell important stories and get the facts and and also especially these days there's so many feel good stories and stories about people caring about each other and connecting with each other so I did misspeak and I kind of used the language of the people who want to attack the media and I should have thought that through better so I do apologize yeah but I I more meant the people who decide what we ingest as news which is not it goes way above all the people who are trying to report the news and right keep us all in for it's the shareholders that decide what's allowed it's the six billionaires that run a political baby so okay excuse me I scared Elvis um yes we You broke up with your boyfriend?

[540] We obviously, we wouldn't have a podcast if it weren't for these incredible journalists who do so much insane, wonderful work that we then, you know.

[541] Regurgitate.

[542] Condense and regurgitate.

[543] And we are so grateful for that.

[544] And in my wildest dreams, I would be a journalist.

[545] I mean, truly.

[546] And, yeah, true crime journalists, true crime writers.

[547] Like, yes, we would not be here without them.

[548] So my apologies to anyone that was offended.

[549] Yeah.

[550] And that's why we up top, before our stories, give credits because we know it's so important.

[551] Entirely.

[552] So this, you know, story I'm about to tell you, I was going to tell you the version that I kind of experienced.

[553] And then I read Lisa Belkin's article, which was kind of about the full experience, not just what happened directly after the rescue, but then the effect that had and the effect the fame had.

[554] And the effect the fact that the world could see this, the world could see what happened in Midland.

[555] Texas of this tiny little town like I mean it's it and it at a time where it hadn't really happened that much yeah this was one of the first times that happened it's really fascinating so anyway so it is October 14th 1987 I'm 17 my eyebrows are flourishing in a way it looks like two huge black cattle pillars have crawled onto my forehead and made a home for themselves 17 year Carol Karen, what I wouldn't give to just like hang out with just like carpool somewhere with her, just have a chat.

[556] And she would have done it if you had some California coolers in the backseat.

[557] She would be down to clown.

[558] Big hoop earrings, California coolers, 1987.

[559] Amazing.

[560] So, but now we're in Midland, Texas.

[561] We're not a peddlema, California.

[562] We're in Midland, Texas.

[563] And it's the morning of October 14th, 1987.

[564] And 18 -year -old Reba, her nickname is Sissy McClure.

[565] she's at her sister Jamie's house at 3309 Tanner Drive in Midland and Jamie has a daycare that she runs out of her home and so Sissy's there with like five kids one of whom is her 18 month old daughter Jessica so they're out in the all the kids are out in the backyard and Sissy's out there with them playing and then the phone rings so she runs inside to grab it and while she's inside on the phone she hears all the kids scream so she runs back outside and all the kids are standing around a pipe that is three inches coming three inches up out of the ground and only eight inches in diameter and her 18 month old daughter has fallen down this pipe it's a mother's worst nightmare and she's standing in it like and freaking out of course oh my god she can hear her daughter i believe she can hear her daughter crying oh i will also say that there's was a TV movie that was made in, I believe, 1990 starring Patty Duke and Bow Bridges.

[566] It's called Everybody's Baby, the Jessica McClure story.

[567] So in that, the mother hears her crying, but I don't know if that's factual.

[568] That's just what happened in the TV movie.

[569] Okay.

[570] So I just, we don't know how deep it is yet.

[571] We'll find out.

[572] The well?

[573] Yeah.

[574] We, you will.

[575] Okay.

[576] Event.

[577] Got it.

[578] Okay.

[579] So she, of course, runs back in.

[580] calls the police they're there in three minutes and basically they come to find out that this pipe is basically leading down to an abandoned well.

[581] So it's very deep just so you know.

[582] Yeah.

[583] So the first police officer on the scene is 32 year old Bobby Joe Hall BJ is his nickname.

[584] Bobby Joe.

[585] Bobby Joe.

[586] Everybody got a nickname in Midland.

[587] Bobby Joe, BJ Hall comes to the front door.

[588] Sissy gets there.

[589] She is Of course, out of her mind, she just keeps saying over and over, I can't let my baby die.

[590] I got to get her out.

[591] So, Officer Hall assures Sissy that they're going to save Jessica.

[592] He tries to look down this shaft to see her, but it's too dark.

[593] He can't see anything.

[594] He calls out her name a few times.

[595] There's no response at first.

[596] Then he can hear faint crying.

[597] So they know she's alive.

[598] My God.

[599] Paramedics show up at the same time as the police.

[600] So the paramedics are back there with them.

[601] They start pumping oxygen down into the.

[602] opening okay um as more first responders arrive on the scene someone comes up with the idea to lower a microphone that's attached to a flashlight down into the shaft so they can hear her so they're calling out to her they wait to hear her respond then she they they hear her you know make sounds back and they can figure out from the length of the microphone that she's 22 feet down this well fuck yeah way the fuck underground yeah yeah Yeah.

[603] So after that, they, a little while after that, they figure out a way to lower a video camera down into the well.

[604] And so they can see, like, how she's down there because they don't understand.

[605] And essentially, they lower it down, they get this kind of side view.

[606] And she has fallen down.

[607] So it's in the diameter is eight inch, eight inches of this pipe.

[608] How big is that?

[609] What's that like?

[610] Eight inches is less than a foot.

[611] So it's like if 12 inches is a foot.

[612] Uh -huh.

[613] Like that.

[614] yeah it's like it's basically like that like it's tiny like it's tiny like it's a big huge pipe but tiny there's no there's no wriggle room for her at all not at all and in fact what they realize when the video goes down there is that she's stuck with her right leg up and pinned to the wall and her left leg down so she's kind of in the splits a little bit oh baby yes I know so the midland um fire and police departments they work together they come up with this plan and they're like we have to dig a second shaft next to this well and then tunnel across and then get in access and get her out that way okay so the city of midland gets a backhoe over there they tear down the neighbor's fences and that this is a funny thing too so it's it's a very this neighborhood is very kind of like lower middle class like the houses the houses all look like my old house it's just like a basic two -bedroom house yeah you know what I mean like all these houses are a little square little houses.

[615] They went up in the 70s and they're in they.

[616] Yeah.

[617] And they're like with five foot fences in the backyard.

[618] So if you stood in your backyard, you could see into your neighbor's backyard like, hey, what's up?

[619] It's not like big till eight foot fences is like that.

[620] So but they're like, they have to come in and like knock people's fences down, get this backhoe in there.

[621] They start to dig down two or three feet and then they hit basically bedrock, like really hard rock.

[622] And they realize that they're going to need something with more power.

[623] It's not a backhoe isn't going to do.

[624] it so they bring it luckily they're in midland texas which was like an oil town big time so there's all kinds of like um you know drilling for oil type of uh places you know everyone knows what we mean we're from california place you know they're everywhere and all the drill like all they have yeah all this heavy equipment is around town because of that luckily texans know what we're talking about they know and they relate and hey what's up texas you've always supported us thank you okay so they bring in what's called a rat hole rig which they usually use to drill holes to sink telephone poles okay so even even using heavy machinery it takes hours and basically if like as the hours passed this backyard is starting to fill up with firemen policemen paramedics volunteers people who are hearing there's a little girl trapped And people saying, okay, well, I have this rig and I used to work at this, you know, like all these people that no drilling and they're showing up to help.

[625] So the whole backyard is starting to fill up with people.

[626] And one of those people is 36 -year -old police detective, Andy Glasscock.

[627] And he's actually going to spend the next 72 hours essentially laying on his belly on the ground next to this opening, calling down to Jessica and getting her to respond to him to make sure that she's still alive.

[628] He's like the hostage negotiator, but in a positive, but in a sweet way.

[629] Yes.

[630] He's the baby hostage and the hostage taker is the well.

[631] The baby down a well whisperer.

[632] So he's a dad himself.

[633] So he's saying that like he's calling down, making her say stuff back to him.

[634] And so he said after a while he could tell what her mood was.

[635] So she would switch between angry huffs or pain.

[636] whimpers or cooing and they could she would answer 80 % of the time but in the 20 % when she wouldn't respond of course everyone would get super nervous then they would say oh maybe she's sleeping or she's just really exhausted and then Andy would go yell down the pipe what does a kitten go how does a kitten go and then they'd hear meow oh my god right it's the saddest oh and at one point kids can't not respond to what does whatever go.

[637] Yes.

[638] They're trained.

[639] By 18 months, all American children are trained to tell you what every animal, what every sound every animal makes.

[640] At one point, they pause in the drilling and it's really quiet.

[641] And then they can all, because the microphones down there, they can all hear her singing, Winnie the Pooh, Winnie the Pooh to herself.

[642] She's comforting herself.

[643] She's comforting herself.

[644] And I'm editorializing here, but I imagine all those big, strong Texan men lost their shit.

[645] Absolutely.

[646] And in a very strong, manly Texan way, cried or brushed a single tear off and then got mad and demanded that someone bring them coffee.

[647] Whatever.

[648] Awesome stuff.

[649] Wow.

[650] Okay.

[651] So now October 14th, 1987 is actually a very big news day.

[652] So a U .S. flag tanker is hit by a missile in Kuwait.

[653] First Lady Nancy Reagan is actually a hospital.

[654] for breast cancer.

[655] And the Dow Jones drops more than 100 points that day.

[656] But none of those stories capture America's attention the way baby Jessica being stuck in the well does.

[657] And that's mainly due to the fact that CNN is covering it nonstop.

[658] Yeah.

[659] I said this already a little bit beforehand, but it had been running for seven years at that point.

[660] But this is only the second time they or any station covered a story live around the clock.

[661] The first one was, was a year earlier when the space shuttle Challenger exploded.

[662] And this story was just as big, but in this way of that it still had an inkling of hope.

[663] So CNN has reporters live on the scene almost immediately, and they keep their cameras, like, rolling on this backyard for this rescue mission nonstop the entire time.

[664] And everyone is glued to the TV.

[665] Millions and millions and millions of Americans.

[666] Seven -year -old Georgia was fucking watching.

[667] for sure.

[668] 17 -year -old Karen was drinking in a field but her heart was with the family.

[669] No, I saw it.

[670] So other news networks pick up the story and this backyard becomes, it's a media frenzy.

[671] So when as reporters show up, neighbors are letting news cameraman like, because first of all, the backyard fills up entirely, that Jamie's backyard fills up.

[672] Then the neighbors are letting news cameraman into their backyards that are surrounding this backyard.

[673] And then, they're sitting on ladders in neighbors' backyards with their cameras so they can get the shot above everything else.

[674] And then that becomes kind of the surrounding outline.

[675] And so those spots are like coveted new spots because those are all the people that have the shot.

[676] You know what I mean?

[677] And it's like ringing it.

[678] So all these guys are sitting up and then they need somebody to go down and like hold the ladder.

[679] It was all it was all like jostling for space.

[680] It was like a really big deal.

[681] Midland's local TV station, KMID TV, they start getting calls from all around the world for people asking for updates on Jessica's rescue mission.

[682] Holy shit.

[683] So the places that didn't have CNN or couldn't do it, people are just calling in, like hearing about it.

[684] Okay, so it takes this, the rescue team, six hours to dig the first parallel shaft.

[685] Now it's nighttime, it's getting dark.

[686] The whole world is on the edge of their seats, and everyone is just scared to death will they get to her in time.

[687] Do we know who coined baby Jessica or it just kind of became the name of I think it just became it I don't know I didn't find anything that said that but it was me I take credit took her first sip of her first Byrdson James and then turned to her friend and said I'm calling her baby she's my baby suddenly I have a Texan accent for no reason and also it's not really Texan okay so here's what I love the Midland Police Chief and the Midland Fire Chief both know they don't have enough experience for a rescue that's this important and this you know complicated delicate yeah and complicated so they reach out to a man named David Lilly who's a special investigator with the US mind safety and health administration in New Mexico.

[688] He's originally from West Virginia, and he grew up in a family of minors, so he has extensive experience and knowledge in underground recovery work.

[689] So they fly David Lilly out to Midland and basically interview him on the spot and immediately realize he is, he knows his stuff, he's the guy, and now David Lilly is in charge of this rescue operation.

[690] So by the time he gets there, this parallel shaft, has been dug 29 feet deep down.

[691] It's 30 inches wide.

[692] So, and they're actually starting to dig a horizontal tunnel across to where they know Jessica is stuck.

[693] Yeah.

[694] But then David realizes there's a problem with the tunnel's trajectory because if they, they've, they've made it so they're aiming right for where she is.

[695] But that would mean they would have to break the wall in on her.

[696] Right.

[697] And so he's like, no, no, no, we have to dig down even further.

[698] and then tunnel across and up.

[699] So he rerouted them.

[700] So basically the tunnel will connect two feet below where Jessica is stuck.

[701] Okay.

[702] So he also notices the dig team is using weak drill bits, which makes them have to stop and resharpen over and over.

[703] And it takes up way too much time.

[704] So he gets them drill bits made of tungsten carbide and they drill for longer so they don't have to stop or do anything.

[705] And he would later explain his strategy saying, quote, our strategy was that we would drill a series of holes in a square about 24 inches across and 18 inches down.

[706] And the holes would be no more than two inches apart.

[707] And then we would take a 45 pound jackhammer also with a tungsten bit and hold it there to knock out the rock.

[708] And we were going about an inch an hour.

[709] It was terribly hard rock.

[710] and it was slow going because you had to lie down on your stomach holding a 45 -pound jackhammer in front of you.

[711] And then he says, but I've never seen more dedicated people.

[712] That quotes from People Mag.

[713] So the next day is October 15th and the team finally reaches the wall of the well.

[714] But the rock around the well is even harder.

[715] So in order to drill through that, they have to use a high -pressure water jet cutting.

[716] but finally they do break through but the entryway they make is really small there's a local roofing contractor named Ron Short and he comes to volunteer to help because he was born without collar bones and so he can like basically fold in his shoulders and basically fit into cramped spaces yes so he's there I mean this is what the people of this spot into in like Midland but all around people show up and they're just like Like, there's a, in this, in Lisa Belkin's article, she says, there's a contortionist that shows up from Dallas.

[717] It's like, what can I do?

[718] Oh, my God.

[719] Like, people are just like, we want to, we want to help.

[720] But they don't know how badly baby Jessica's hurt.

[721] Right.

[722] And they know that moving her could potentially make it worse.

[723] So they finally decide that a Midland firefighter with paramedic training named Robert O'Donnell is should be, the one that goes down into this shaft.

[724] So this is actually going to be a full quote from Lisa Belkin's article, death on the CNN curve.

[725] Quote, at noon on the third day, the drillers stopped.

[726] The reporters clung to their ladders and everybody watched as O'Donnell with a mining light strapped to his head was lowered by a cable harness down the shaft.

[727] He was chosen because he was tall and thin, six feet, 145 pounds.

[728] He didn't mention he was also claustrophobic.

[729] He laid down on his back.

[730] and wriggled headfirst through the cross tunnel with his arms out in front of him.

[731] The air was wet and sticky, and within moments he was bathed in sweat.

[732] It was like trying to slither through a tightly wrapped sleeping bag.

[733] He would tell reporters later.

[734] Can you imagine?

[735] No. He inched to the end of the tunnel until he could look up at the shaft that held Jessica.

[736] Only the first few feet were lined with the pipe that protruded up into the yard.

[737] The rest was raw rock wall.

[738] ball.

[739] One of Jessica's feet was dangling down toward Robert, but the other was out of sight, wedged near her head.

[740] So she was almost in a split.

[741] And this is his quote, Juicy, which is the parent's nickname for Jessica.

[742] Juicy, I'm here to help you.

[743] Oh, I might cry.

[744] Sorry.

[745] He asked her to move her leg and she did, satisfied that she probably had no overwhelming spinal injuries.

[746] He started to tug on her foot but she didn't budge she was wedged in too tight and he did not have enough room to maneuver he cursed he prayed he became resigned to the fact that he would have to leave so that the diggers could whiten the tunnel oh my god he promised her he would come back oh god that poor little girl yeah so he has to go back through that tunnel that was so awful to go without her without her he comes up he's really upset there's some people people, they're doctors on the scene that are like, we think he's too upset to go back in, but he insisted that he was fine.

[747] They got like Vaseline, and they made it a little wider.

[748] They got Vaseline.

[749] And there was also, just so, you know, it's really interesting.

[750] I found this infographic that showed how narrow this crazy tunnel was at top and how it widened out.

[751] And they put a balloon under her so that she wouldn't fall further down the well.

[752] Yeah.

[753] Yeah.

[754] So, like, they came in.

[755] they put the balloon down there and then basically he went in you know it was widened out a little bit and and they just basically put a little vaseline he tugged on her he pulled her and he got her and he pulled her back through the tunnel so at 10 p .m. on October 16th, 1987 after 58 hours, two and a half days of being trapped.

[756] Oh, I have chills with yeah.

[757] 18 -month -old Jessica is pulled free by Robert O'Donnell and taken back across the tunnel to the parallel shaft where so at the bottom of the shaft that that parallel shaft that they dug paramedic steve forbes is waiting there he has a backboard which is that thing they put like when you're a car accident or whatever he has a little one for a little baby he has a bunch of gauze so he wraps her head she's got big cut on her head and her arms and you know stuff wrong with her legs so he basically does real rudimentary kind of head wrap he sticks her on this backboard and then They get onto this, like, plank, and the two Forbes and baby Jessica are carried 29 feet up and out of the shaft.

[758] And when they get to the top, and I swear to God, you all have to go and watch this.

[759] It's a 40 -second clip on YouTube, and it was, I was crying so hard.

[760] I was like, this is more than just this video, but it's so beautiful.

[761] When they get to the top, it's 10 o 'clock at night.

[762] So it's all this, you know, it's nighttime, but then it's all these lights, like cleats that they put up.

[763] Yeah.

[764] And by this point, you've got the reporters on their ladders, but it's like, it's like eight people deep.

[765] It's mostly men.

[766] It's mostly these rescue workers and these volunteers.

[767] And when they come up out of this well, there is cheering and applause like you wouldn't.

[768] I mean, these are seasoned reporters.

[769] These are like paramedics and firemen that seen everything and people are going nuts.

[770] Oh, my God.

[771] Church bells across the town of Midland are ringing.

[772] And Jessica, even though she's covered in dirt, she's clearly dazed.

[773] Her mom is right there trying to get, you know, trying to get to her.

[774] She's alive.

[775] And at this point, all three TV networks, all three TV networks, because it's 1987, break into their regular programming to announce that baby Jessica has been rescued.

[776] Dan Rather actually said, live from Midland, Texas.

[777] Jessica McClure is up.

[778] She's alive.

[779] What a fighter.

[780] So good.

[781] Okay.

[782] So she's taken to the hospital.

[783] Baby Jessica's taken to the hospital.

[784] Oh, oh.

[785] And just in the video, just, you know, there's a paramedic, basically Steve Forbes.

[786] So Robert O'Donnell is the one who got her out of the well handed to Steve Forbes.

[787] Steve Forbes is the one who secured her and brought her up out of the shaft.

[788] And then Forbes handed Jessica to paramedic Bill McQueen.

[789] And he's the one that you see walking her.

[790] out very quickly out of that backyard until a waiting ambulance.

[791] She's rushed to a hospital.

[792] She's in the hospital for over a month, about 36 days.

[793] Wow.

[794] She's got a pretty bad wound on her forehead.

[795] And because her foot was above her head, the whole time the loss of circulation, she actually got gangrene and she had to amp -they had to amputate one of her toes.

[796] Oh, no. Which, but other than that, she's okay, which is pretty amazing.

[797] Over the next few years, She has to have about six surgeries, but aside from a forehead scar and the toe, she's totally fine.

[798] And her hospital bills are paid.

[799] All the doctors that worked on her donated their time, and then her remaining hospital bills are paid by anonymous donors.

[800] Wow.

[801] And the entire world begins to send gifts and toys and cakes and all this stuff to Midland, Texas for baby Jessica.

[802] She is totally inundated.

[803] President Reagan and the first lady call the McClure's, tell them that they watched from Nancy's hospital room.

[804] She was supposed to go in for a biopsy, and she said she wouldn't leave her hospital room until the baby came up.

[805] That's the quote from Nancy Reagan.

[806] I spit on the ground of that name, but still, but still, we're all human beings doing our best.

[807] Sure.

[808] So are we?

[809] Okay.

[810] I mean, are they?

[811] Are they?

[812] Will we?

[813] Were they?

[814] Did they?

[815] there are parades for the rescuers and when Jessica's fully recovered and out of the hospital the McClure's guest on live with Regis and Kathy Lee I remember they get to give their first hand account of the story of course baby Jessica is so charming and lively and everyone is in love with her and of course in 1989 they make the ABC television movie Everybody's Baby the Rescue of Jessica McClore starring Patty Duke and Beau Bridges but of course as with all things like this with sudden and huge worldwide fame, there's a dark side.

[816] The state of Texas files a negligence claim against Jessica's aunt, Jamie Moore, whose daycare center was.

[817] What?

[818] There's a mine pipe in your fucking yard.

[819] I know.

[820] That's the city.

[821] But it's pretty much what they have to do when, if something happens to a kid, they have to do it.

[822] And apparently the person at that department where those claims are filed was like those people have suffered enough.

[823] but Jamie Moore ended up closing her that daycare permanently, I mean, of course.

[824] Right.

[825] So then the file, the charges were dropped.

[826] But both the pressure of worldwide and small town fame eventually gets to Jessica's parents, Sissy and Chip McClure.

[827] When they take $30 ,000 of the money that is given because people end up having to open like a trust account because people just keep giving money to baby Jessica.

[828] So they take 30 grand and buy out.

[829] a three -bedroom house on the edge of town, which is huge and way bigger than the house they already had.

[830] 30 grand.

[831] And can you imagine?

[832] The town gossip is like they're spending all of Jessica's money.

[833] People start to go crazy because it's jealousy and all kinds of stuff.

[834] This is an amazing quote from Lisa Belkin's article that it really warmed my heart.

[835] Not really.

[836] You'll see.

[837] Quote, this is, we were over at Denny's one day soon after it happened.

[838] And when she came in, says Maria Petronella, who lives two doors down from the house with the well and was out front with a garden hose on a recent June morning trying to resuscitate her baked, shriveled grass.

[839] There was a wait.

[840] And she looked at the guy and says, just like that, do you know who I am?

[841] I'm Jessica's mother.

[842] I said to her, if it wasn't for a whole lot of other people, you wouldn't be anybody's mother.

[843] Oh, damn.

[844] Oh, shit.

[845] So this is the kind of fucking small town, you know, pressure.

[846] And like the behavior change, the fucking status change, hierarchy, celebrity, financial change, the celebrity aspect, everything goes nuts.

[847] Yeah, it seems like it never works out great.

[848] Well, if everything changes overnight, I mean, how can it work out great?

[849] Yeah, look at us.

[850] You saw us at Denny's.

[851] We thought we're out of our minds cutting in front of people left and right.

[852] I've got to get moon over Miami.

[853] And I got to get it.

[854] for you.

[855] That's what makes it delicious.

[856] So Sissy and Chip McClure end up getting a divorce in 1990.

[857] The pressure just gets to them.

[858] But worse than that, the fame and the pressure also affects the first responders who are there.

[859] So this is another big quote from Lisa Belkin's article from New York Times.

[860] Quote, the attention heaped on the McClure's trickled down to the central players in the rescue.

[861] Andy Glasscock was seen in the Michael Jackson video Man in the Mirror.

[862] That's right.

[863] Remember?

[864] included flashes of major news events.

[865] Forbes and O'Donnell each received a wall full of citations and plaques, and O'Donnell was asked to serve as a judge for the G .I. Joe's search for real American heroes and attend the White House Award ceremony for that program.

[866] Not only was he a guest when Oprah Winfrey brought her show to Midland, but he also sat next to her at the press conference beforehand.

[867] He was invited to speak at so many firefighter conventions around the country that he developed a slide presentation.

[868] Forbes and O'Donnell and their wives were flown to Los Angeles to appear on the television program third degree where a celebrity panel tries to guess what two seemingly unrelated individuals have in common.

[869] The panelists knew immediately who they were.

[870] Wow.

[871] Yeah, that's how famous.

[872] A four foot by six foot plaque was hung on the wall of the Midland Center, a bronze rendition of the Pulitzer Prize winning photo.

[873] Oh, so there was a news photographer from an Odessa newspaper who was one of the people up on one of those ladders and when the baby got brought up he snapped a photo that went on to win a Pulitzer.

[874] Holy shit.

[875] So like big stuff was happening for all these people around there.

[876] Okay.

[877] An area a few blocks away was renamed Volunteer Park at the actual site of the rescue.

[878] An iron plate was welded over the pipe with the inscription for Jessica with love from all of us.

[879] In an emotional ceremony, the rescuers including O'Donnell, planted a red bud seedling surrounded by a ring of lavender chrysanthemum over the refilled parallel shaft.

[880] Sounds beautiful.

[881] Yeah.

[882] So then of course, Hollywood comes calling and there's multiple offers for TV, for movies or TV movies.

[883] So the rescuers and the volunteers become divided into two warring factions.

[884] And they each accuse the other of only caring about the money while claiming that they're the ones who care about the story being told well.

[885] Or they did the most important job work and whatever.

[886] So essentially it's that first wave.

[887] No one's experienced any of this before and everybody it gets, as I want to say, high on their own supply.

[888] Amen.

[889] So the one who seemed to suffer the most from this fame and then it's inevitable sudden withdrawal was the fireman Robert O'Donnell who first pulled Jessica out of the well.

[890] when the phone stopped ringing he became depressed and listless he then became addicted to pain killers eventually his wife left him he lost his job as a fireman and then soon after the oklahoma city bombing in april of 1995 clearly suffering from PTSD yeah he drove down a lone ranch road and shot himself in his truck he left he left a note that said no help from nobody but family oh god just so tragic and i did know anything about that part of the story until I read Lisa Belkin's article.

[891] And please go read this article.

[892] It's mind -blowing.

[893] She spent a lot of time with him before he died.

[894] She spent time in Midland.

[895] She tells the story from the inside of watching this town, like go through this amazing, beautiful, miraculous event.

[896] And then basically the fallout and how it affects people afterwards.

[897] It's really incredibly reported.

[898] PTSD is an ugly.

[899] an ugly thing.

[900] Yeah, apparently when the, he was watching the rescuers go into, you know, the, the Oklahoma bomb site.

[901] And he said to, I think by that time he was living with his mother.

[902] I mean, things were very dark for him.

[903] And he looked at his mother and said, those guys are going to need help.

[904] Yeah.

[905] Like, like, just knowing and seeing, like, oh, this is, this is what happened to us on like an even bigger scale.

[906] Right.

[907] Totally.

[908] But the upside.

[909] And, the kind of miraculous thing is baby Jessica herself turned out great so she goes on she graduates from Greenwood high school in 2004 she gets a job working in a daycare center and as she's working there she one of her co -workers um introduces her to her brother who becomes her husband they get married in 2006 they have two kids a little boy in 2007 and a little girl in 2009 um And then what's my favorite, favorite part of the story and so beautiful, people never stop donating to baby Jessica's trust fund.

[910] And she wasn't allowed to access it till her 25th birthday.

[911] And when she did, it had $800 ,000 in it.

[912] What?

[913] Are you fucking kidding me?

[914] Nope.

[915] Nope.

[916] People from all over the world gave baby Jessica money for years and years and years.

[917] Can you imagine?

[918] Can you fucking imagine?

[919] So, so, and, and also like, yeah, it's like basically, oh, my neighbor's waving high.

[920] Hi.

[921] That's the guy that told me I was beautiful.

[922] Oh, hi, we love you.

[923] I love him.

[924] Okay.

[925] So then other than a small scar on her forehead and, of course, not having, she only has nine toes.

[926] Right.

[927] But other than that, Jessica doesn't remember falling.

[928] She doesn't remember being in the well.

[929] She doesn't remember being rescued.

[930] She doesn't feel traumatized by it.

[931] She feels really lucky.

[932] And she says that the one amazing lesson that she learned from that whole experience, she's told this to Time Magazine.

[933] If you look hard enough, there are so many good people in the world.

[934] Right.

[935] And that is the story of the rescue of baby Jessica McClure.

[936] Karen.

[937] Now, can I just, here's a post script.

[938] Okay.

[939] and this is real and I've told a bunch of people this so because at first I was like I'm not going to tell this story on my podcast because then someone's going to steal my idea but all right I think this is I think I wrote this document I would say 2009 okay and it was this is something you wrote this is something okay so this is this idea I got I think it was like I was probably unemployed kind of just you know and I started thinking about the story because of how amazing it was and how big it was at the time.

[940] So I started, I wrote up a document because I wanted to write a sitcom called Oh Well about adult baby Jessica being a total monster.

[941] Okay, so here's the idea.

[942] And this was, I knew nothing about real baby Jessica.

[943] So real baby Jessica, if you hear this.

[944] This is fictionalized.

[945] I love that you're normal, cool and you have $800 ,000.

[946] Everything about it.

[947] But my idea was, oh, because I think I heard this.

[948] I heard, like, in people or time or whatever, that she had this huge trust fund.

[949] And in my mind, it was like, it's $7 million or whatever.

[950] So here's my document.

[951] It's a sitcom called Oh Well.

[952] And it takes place in Midland, Texas.

[953] Baby Jessica is now grown up and lives in a mansion built over the well she fell into when she was 18 months old.

[954] A trust was set up that day that the public made donations into, which has resulted in her living and behaving like a millionaire.

[955] She loves horses.

[956] everyone still calls her the baby.

[957] Her mansion is built over the well and she talks into it like a friend at night.

[958] She has a know -it -all butler, a scroungy family.

[959] The town worships her.

[960] She has flights of fancy from the trauma she suffered as a baby.

[961] So animals and creatures come to visit her from time to time, but she first met while she hallucinated them down in the well.

[962] Oh my God.

[963] She's treated like a holy relic in the town.

[964] People come from all over to see her.

[965] And she's constantly being asked to do talk shows and parades, and she's horribly jealous of any other child in peril on the news.

[966] Oh, my God.

[967] So let's get that made.

[968] This is going to be my next big project.

[969] It's called, oh, well, it is not based on fact, but I love the idea of, like, someone like this, that you're just going to take it.

[970] You're just going to be a rescued baby and then be like, now you're all my servants for the rest of your life.

[971] I hate that other famous baby.

[972] How dare that baby be rescued?

[973] I'm the rescued baby.

[974] But she's like 39.

[975] I love it.

[976] That's my story.

[977] That's the best.

[978] Great job.

[979] That was so awesome.

[980] I love that you did that.

[981] What a great idea.

[982] I like the disaster story element of it, but it's a happy ending.

[983] Well, and like there's this tragic element to it that I think it's that, again, that kind of thing, no one talks about stuff like that.

[984] So it's like, we all know the baby Jessica story.

[985] and we all like a lot of us read about like the trust fund where it's like that's kind of beautiful but the Robert O'Donnell's role that he played and then the way like what a wonderful thing and how much it meant to him obviously but then the way the fame and the kind of like being in that spotlight and how it can affect you if you are you know of a certain makeup or you just like obviously no one in that town thought anything like that was going to happen no and they weren't prepared for it and and they didn't get, yeah, the attention needed after.

[986] Yeah, that's sad.

[987] Are you going to tell me a story?

[988] I'm going to tell you a story.

[989] It's a little bit legendary, like yours.

[990] Yeah.

[991] This is the deaths of Sid and Nancy.

[992] No, dude.

[993] How would we not done this?

[994] All the times we've done shows in New York, and neither of us thought to do this.

[995] It's crazy.

[996] Me and my friend Laura Milligan, when we used to get drunk in 90s, I think it was with Laura.

[997] I think we used to be...

[998] Sad.

[999] Sad.

[1000] Like doing that.

[1001] It's the best.

[1002] I remember the movie came out.

[1003] Sid and Nancy came out in 1986.

[1004] And I remember I must have seen it, you know, in the 90s at some point, being like, this is the most romantic story ever.

[1005] And then now I'm studying it as an adult.

[1006] I'm like, this is fucked up.

[1007] It's so depressing.

[1008] I remember hearing the quote where he was...

[1009] Sid Visha said like sex is boring and stupid and I was like oh no am I perverted I think it's great I think it's great and exciting no no you're fine you're not the problem here I'm not on heroin that's the I think that's the key is it the finish the sentence sex is boring and stupid when you're on heroin right so I got information from a website called history collection people magazine mental floss rolling stone a website the website independent and there's so there's two articles on the Independent.

[1010] One is written by Joe Summerlad.

[1011] And the other one, I swear I looked so hard and could not find who wrote it.

[1012] But it was from like 93.

[1013] So maybe they just didn't have it.

[1014] But it might have been Joe Summerlad for all I know.

[1015] A Daily Beast article.

[1016] There's a documentary called Who Killed Nancy.

[1017] And then also Wikipedia.

[1018] Karen, ready?

[1019] Yes.

[1020] Okay.

[1021] This is Sex Pistols.

[1022] As you know, they were an English punk rock band.

[1023] They formed in London in 1975.

[1024] And they were responsible for initiating the punk movement in the UK.

[1025] It was.

[1026] was already going on in New York, and the sex pistols were like the main thing going on in London.

[1027] And they were regarded as one of the most influential bands in the history of punk and music, popular music.

[1028] The group originally consisted of John Leiden, aka Johnny Rotten.

[1029] He was singing.

[1030] Steve Jones was on guitar, Paul Cook on drums, and Glenn Matlock was the bassist.

[1031] But in early 1977, Glenn Matlock was kicked out of the band, or he decided to leave because, his mom hated how anti -crown the van was and like forced him to quit which is really adorable um and so he was in the name of all that's royal get out of that band how dare you and just really quick can we say if you haven't heard jonesy's jukebox oh it's one of the best radio shows steve jones has this radio show that is has in driving in traffic in los angeles over the years i've lived here saved my life it's influential it's so good amazing um so Glenn quit the band for mom and was replaced by Simon John Ritchie, aka Sid Vicious, even though Sid had no idea how to play bass.

[1032] Okay.

[1033] I really love that.

[1034] I really love and respect the fact that he would get on stage and just kind of not know how to do it.

[1035] No, it's great.

[1036] It's so punk rock.

[1037] Yeah.

[1038] It doesn't matter.

[1039] Yeah.

[1040] So Simon John Ritchie, who I'm going to call Sid Vicious from now on because it's easier, was born on May 10th, 19...

[1041] Oh, that's...

[1042] No, your birthday is the 11th.

[1043] That's right.

[1044] 1957 in England.

[1045] And his father flakes out on his mom.

[1046] Her name is Anne.

[1047] And his...

[1048] Then, so she remarries the stepfather.

[1049] He...

[1050] Six months after their marriage, he dies of cancer.

[1051] No. How sad is that?

[1052] Like, you've got this second chance and that happens.

[1053] Ugh.

[1054] So Sid Vicious's mom raises him alone in East London.

[1055] And by all accounts, Sid...

[1056] Sid's mother...

[1057] Anne was fucking very problematic.

[1058] She was heavily involved in drugs as both a user and a trafficker.

[1059] And when Sid was a toddler, his mom used him as a drug mule.

[1060] She'd stuff his clothes with packages of hash and smuggle them from Spain to England.

[1061] So lady, not a good start.

[1062] Not cool.

[1063] That's really not Marion Cunningham.

[1064] I thought my mom was bad.

[1065] Right.

[1066] No, your mom's amazing.

[1067] She killed it.

[1068] Sex Pistol Singer Johnny Rotten said that once he was hanging, out at Sid's house on Sid's birthday when they were like friends as young teens and and Sid's mom gave him Sid a bag of heroin as a birthday present and I think even for punk rockers like Johnny Rotten was like what the fuck and then Sid was like oh she means well she just knows that heroin relaxes me so it's all God damn yeah that's awful it's so awful it's not fair so Sid had first met Johnny Rotten in 1973 there were both students at it this technical college in their later teens and they had been hanging out in this in this little burgeoning punk scene that was actually pretty small in London and it originated in this little clothing shop called sex that was run by Vivian Westwood yeah did you know that yeah and there's an there's an amazing documentary about Vivian Westwood if you haven't seen it it is I have to watch it I'll look up the title it's amazing she's so she just she did it in the face of everyone going this is disgusting and she would win these awards and everyone in the fashion industry would be mad because they all they all wanted everything to look like those weird 90s plain suits and she was up there yeah yeah exactly and she was like how about a kilt and a tank top yeah amazing so truly i mean the fact that they named their clothing store sex just shows you like so cool so it was vivian westwood along with malcolm mclaren who becomes a sex pistols manager and um the clothing store specialize in clothing that define the look of the punk movement.

[1069] So Johnny Rotten nicknames this kid, Simon, his friend, nicknames him Sid Vicious because Johnny Rotten's had a pet hamster named Sid that he named after Sid Barrett, the founder of Pink Floyd.

[1070] And then one day the hamster bit Sid and they yelled about him being vicious.

[1071] And so now his name is Sid Vicious.

[1072] Legendary.

[1073] Kind of an innocent, yeah, innocent beginnings.

[1074] Right.

[1075] And actually, I didn't know this, but Sid Vicious was originally a drummer, and he was the original drummer for Susie and the Banshees.

[1076] Really?

[1077] Yeah.

[1078] So we actually could play an instrument.

[1079] It just wasn't the bass.

[1080] Even more punk.

[1081] Yeah, it turns out they're not interchangeable.

[1082] So when the Sex Pistols needed a bass player, Johnny Rotten, like, didn't care that he couldn't play.

[1083] He brought in his friend Sid Vicious in February of 1977, and Sid Vicious never really learns to play.

[1084] But he had been a big fan of the Sex Pistols.

[1085] He had been at every show.

[1086] And he, I think what mattered more for them was that great punk rock fuck you style with the spike black hair, leather jacket.

[1087] He wore a shirt that had a swastika on it as a, and he said it was like a political statement as a normalizing the swastika.

[1088] But, you know, it's England and like two decades past the bombing of your fucking town.

[1089] No, dude.

[1090] No. So.

[1091] It doesn't matter what your intention.

[1092] Right.

[1093] It doesn't matter what your intention is.

[1094] It matters what the impact is.

[1095] Exactly.

[1096] As we've all learned.

[1097] Right.

[1098] So on their debut album and only album, Never Mind the Bullocks, here's the Sex Pistols.

[1099] Syvicious for the recording was in the hospital with hepatitis.

[1100] So he was only on one track, one song where he plays bass, but even that track has to be dubbed over by Steve Jones.

[1101] So despite the success of Nevermind the Bullocks, which is a great album.

[1102] Bollocks?

[1103] Bollocks?

[1104] Is it Bollocks?

[1105] Is it an O?

[1106] You're right.

[1107] I feel like you're my teacher I just I'm just I'm clocking you No I like it I'm trying to be punk and mispronounce things Mom Funny it's bollocks It's bollocks Despite the success of never mind the bollocks The band never records another album And they break up after two and a half years of being a band Which is a fact that many people blame on Sid's new girlfriend, Nancy Spungeon.

[1108] Mm -hmm.

[1109] Let's talk about Nancy.

[1110] Said.

[1111] Said.

[1112] That's good.

[1113] So Nancy Spungeon is born in 1958 into an upper middle -class Jewish family, which I didn't know, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

[1114] As a young girl, Nancy is super smart, but her mom describes her as a problem child.

[1115] She has a lot of issues.

[1116] She was born with the embellical cord wrapped around her neck, which may have caused some injuries.

[1117] She throws violent tantrums as a kid.

[1118] She bullies her siblings.

[1119] She threatens her babysitter with a pair of scissors.

[1120] And she even attacks a psychiatrist who was trying to treat her.

[1121] So she's just really problematic.

[1122] She's diagnosed with schizophrenia in her teens, though I don't know how accurate that is.

[1123] That must be like the early 70s when those diagnoses.

[1124] And I don't know who diagnosed her if was her, you know, an actual psychiatrist or her mom just thought that.

[1125] So whatever.

[1126] But she starts using drugs, as a lot of us do, and graduates early from boarding school at 16, and she moves out on her own, and by 17 is in New York City, she arrives right as the New York punk scene is blowing up, and she makes money with part -time sex work.

[1127] So she's totally enamored with the punk scene, and all the hot dudes and the bands.

[1128] Amen.

[1129] Hell yeah.

[1130] Yeah, you're 17.

[1131] And she eventually becomes known as a groupie, and she follows bands.

[1132] like the New York dolls and the Ramones.

[1133] And it seems like she's just hanging out in that big, you know, CBGB era.

[1134] So cool.

[1135] Yeah.

[1136] I mean, like, just the definition of cool.

[1137] Exactly.

[1138] Like, she's there.

[1139] She's in it.

[1140] But she, when she is regarded as a loud and obnoxious and unlikable, which I'd like to say is kind of the most punk rock thing you can fucking do.

[1141] It really is.

[1142] So, like, yeah.

[1143] I feel like it's either that people have a problem with that means you must be really over the top or maybe they're just not punk rock enough.

[1144] but she's rejected by other groupies and accepted by the musicians mainly for her ability to get heroin and supply heroin to them so she follows the punk band johnny thunders and the heartbreakers they go to london for their tour there in 1977 but they tell her to get lost i think their manager was like this chick is problematic she like just anyone she's around becomes a fucking heroin addict yeah which is like i think they can do that on their own and uh she's She ends up meeting the sex pistols instead.

[1145] So when 19 -year -old Sid vicious and 18 -year -old Nancy Spungent meet, they're inseparable right away.

[1146] They move in together really quickly.

[1147] And in a daily beast article, Malcolm McLaren writes that Nancy teaches Sid all about, quote, sex and drugs and the lifestyle of a New York rocker.

[1148] And some people think that Sid lost his virginity to Nancy, actually.

[1149] Oh.

[1150] Yeah, because he wasn't in, he liked heroin more than sex, so who knows.

[1151] Sex is stupid and boring.

[1152] A whole lot of people blame Nancy for Cid's heroin addiction, but it seems like his mom might be the bigger issue, and he was fine before Nancy came along with that.

[1153] If he was getting it for his birthday, it's her fault.

[1154] But I guess, like, heroin at that time in the London scene wasn't big, and everyone blames Nancy to bringing it over to then, like, introducing it to that scene.

[1155] Wow.

[1156] I know.

[1157] Okay.

[1158] So in the documentary who killed Nancy, everyone talks about how Sid was like so smart and sweet and a goofy kid with a great sense of humor.

[1159] It's like fun to be around.

[1160] And he was this young, impressionable dude.

[1161] But then they go on to tell these fucking stories about him and what an awful violent person he was.

[1162] But like they tell it lovingly.

[1163] But he actually tortured and killed cats.

[1164] There's multiple stories of him doing that.

[1165] He would go out looking for fights and go out to shows like looking for fights.

[1166] He used his belt buckle or a bike chain as a a weapon after he'd pick a fight with someone at one show he threw a bottle at a girl and permanently blinded her in one eye.

[1167] Jesus Christ.

[1168] There are stories of him vomiting on groupies and getting into fights at shows and like swinging and swinging his base at like the audience trying to hit them on purpose.

[1169] He's like mommy, mommy, I'm so mad at you.

[1170] Mommy, please.

[1171] Love me. Mommy, mommy.

[1172] Yeah.

[1173] So Johnny I mean, of all those things purposely throwing up on people is so awful.

[1174] I'd rather take a belt buckle to the cheek and have some puke on me. There's a story.

[1175] Can I tell you that like, I think it was Joey Ramon went into a bathroom in London to shoot up with Sid Vicious and there was no water to mix the heroin with.

[1176] And so Sid took the syringe and in a fucking toilet bowl full of puke used that.

[1177] Like, he was just like one -upping everyone who was already trying to one -up society.

[1178] Yeah.

[1179] Luckily, he never made.

[1180] met Ozzy.

[1181] I remember those behind the music stories where Ozzy was snorting lines of ants and stuff.

[1182] Oh, God.

[1183] But he was friends with Lemmy, which is pretty cool.

[1184] That is actually bad.

[1185] So Johnny Rotten's RIP, Lemmy.

[1186] RIP.

[1187] Johnny Rotten's dad actually witnessed some of this insanity and stated that he felt that they were due to Vicious's insatiable need for attention, never met by his mother because she was a drug addict.

[1188] He said, of Sid Vicious, quote, if he was sitting here and no one was taking any notice of him he'd cut his hand or something to attract attention you'd have to take your mind off everything else and look at him and he was like he did cut himself a lot like pretty severely and just always seem to like be the center of attention he sounds like a real fucking asshole and not a pleasant person at all even though everyone's saying how lovely he is and i think this whole nancy corrupted him thing is not legit at all not saying she's a great person well it's like he's he's still an adult as bad as his childhood is he's responsible for you himself and you know yeah very like convenient i mean i know especially if that um you know the portrayal of her is accurate which i it seems like it is yeah um chloe what's her name that webb i believe yes chloe web i love her so much so good in that role but that you know the voice and the whole thing where she didn't give a fuck about any she's like she was you know the real deal so i think it's very easy like when a woman like that comes along a difficult woman it's like that that's your scapegoat for everybody's problem.

[1189] Well, it's like she's part of that Yoko Ono and Courtney Love and her of like, you ruined it.

[1190] And it's like, they kind of ruined it themselves already.

[1191] They ruined it.

[1192] Right.

[1193] They were in there at those dudes.

[1194] And actually, then you also factor in the many instances of domestic violence against Nancy by Sid.

[1195] He beat her and left her with a broken nose and a torn ear among other injuries.

[1196] I think it was Malcolm McLaren that said, quote, Sid chose Nancy every bit as much as she chose him.

[1197] And in respect of their dangerous, destructive codependency, he and Nancy were ideally suited.

[1198] So, you know, they kind of were perfect together in that way.

[1199] Yeah.

[1200] And everyone said that she filled a void and he filled a void in her, that the other one needed.

[1201] Nancy took care of Sid in a lot of ways.

[1202] And actually, there's old video footage.

[1203] If you go on YouTube and put in Sid and Nancy, interview.

[1204] There's that interview from them in a bed where she's just trying to get Sid to fucking wake up.

[1205] He's nodding off and talking to the, I'm like, can I make you coffee?

[1206] Do you need coffee?

[1207] You know, right.

[1208] Over the next few months, as the sex pistols become huge and they're all over the tabloids for their insane behavior and this anti -crown songs, Sid and Nancy are also like famous and are all over the press for their heroin -fueled antics.

[1209] And the press labels Spungeon as nauseating Nancy.

[1210] They love to do those stupid nicknames.

[1211] They really do.

[1212] Because of public displays of verbal abuse and this shocking behavior.

[1213] And he does everything she wants without question once she said to him, push that groupie down the stairs.

[1214] And he pushed her down the stairs.

[1215] Jesus.

[1216] So things are going.

[1217] Devil children.

[1218] That's right.

[1219] And the other members of the sex pistols fucking hate Nancy so much that they ban her from their upcoming 1978 U .S. tour.

[1220] And, in fact, their manager had already tried to get Nancy kidnapped and sent back to New York City unsuccessfully.

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] Their tour manager told people magazine that Sid began to dislike everything except for heroin and Nancy.

[1223] But there was already a riff -growing in the band between the manager and Johnny Rotten.

[1224] So Sid Vicious's behavior only made things worse.

[1225] And it just seems like Nancy's president.

[1226] and said life sped up the demise of the band but wasn't the catalyst it doesn't seem like johnny rotten was a fucking peach to work with either not at all but at least he was trying to have a real band and take the success they were earning with their the whole you know directive it was a great idea and it was cool and it was like and then it's just like someone that's just like hell bent on ruining everything just tripping and falling over the entire thing yeah and just making a mess just ruining it so the sex puzzles break up after their last U .S. performance in San Francisco in January of 78, and then sit and Nancy go to New York City and move into the historic hotel Chelsea in New York City.

[1227] I said New York City.

[1228] It's known for house.

[1229] It's like a historic landmark now.

[1230] I felt that in my chest.

[1231] It was good, huh?

[1232] I felt it in my chest and I felt it in your chest too.

[1233] Through the wires.

[1234] We can finally.

[1235] Look, I'm channeling punk rock.

[1236] So, of course, the Hotel Chelsea is famous, you know, fucking Bob Dylan and Mark Twain and Stanley, like everyone famous ever stayed there.

[1237] And Sid and Nancy move into Room 100 and register as Mr. and Mrs. John Simon Ritchie.

[1238] So they continue their fucking crazy lifestyle, crazy drug abuse, partying, these raging arguments, domestic violence, and all sorts of shady characters are coming in and out of their room.

[1239] and they're there for three months and it's just a chaotic time.

[1240] So at this point they had been together 21 months and on the night of October 11th, 1978, they throw a party and when at the party, as any good boyfriend slash host of the party does, Sid takes at least 30 -tun -all tablets, two -and -all tablets.

[1241] Never heard of it.

[1242] It's a strong barbiturate and he takes 30 of them.

[1243] So he's attempting suicide at the party?

[1244] He's just having a laugh.

[1245] Okay.

[1246] And it knocks him out, obviously, so that sounds fun.

[1247] And the following morning at 7 .30, the hotel guests start to report the sound of a woman groaning from room 100.

[1248] And then at 10 a .m., Sid calls down to the reception and tells them that he needs help.

[1249] And when staff gets up there, they find Nancy's lifeless body under the bathroom sink.

[1250] in the room and she has a single stab wound in her stomach and so at just 20 years old nancy spongin is dead 20 they did all of that it's crazy i didn't realize they'd only been together for two years yeah it's i always thought like having watched the movie yeah i thought it was years and years yeah crazy so the staff at the hotel remember sid being like he was days he was wandering the hall he was wailing about how he had killed her and during his initial interview He confesses and says, I did it because I'm a dirty dog.

[1251] So he confesses, but he's arrested and charged with second degree murder.

[1252] But once he's arrested, he retracts his confession saying he was asleep at the time.

[1253] And he woke up and found her dead.

[1254] And he said that maybe Nancy rolled over onto the knife when she was in bed and accidentally stabbed herself.

[1255] Nope.

[1256] Unlikely.

[1257] Don't think so?

[1258] Don't think so.

[1259] No, no, no. Personal opinion.

[1260] No. So in the following days, Cid is released on $25 ,000 bail supplied by Virgin Records, which is the band's label.

[1261] Or it's his label at the time.

[1262] And a little while later, his bail is revoked after he assaults Patty Smith's brother, Todd Smith, with a broken Heineken bottle in a bar.

[1263] Because he was hitting on this dude Todd's girlfriend.

[1264] And so the guy, Todd comes up and is like, please don't hit on my girlfriend or whatever.

[1265] And he fucking hits him in the face with the bottle and like slashes his face.

[1266] So he's so Sid Vicious is sent to Rikers to go through detoxification program and get clean.

[1267] But unfortunately, um, that doesn't happen because while he's there, his mother and Beverly smuggles in her vagina drugs to Sid.

[1268] Ugh.

[1269] So Sid's released after 55 days on $10 ,000 bail.

[1270] He's, and so then his mom and some friends want to throw him a freedom party a couple days later.

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] So on February 1st, 1979, Sid and his friends and mom are having a party at the Greenwich Village apartment of Sid's new girlfriend, Michelle, and his mother, Anne, gets some drugs for him for the evening.

[1273] And Sid takes the drugs, but he thinks they're too, the heroin, but he thinks it's too weak.

[1274] So he asks another friend at the party to get him some more.

[1275] And his friend goes out and buys some heroin from people he's never bought heroin from before.

[1276] And so the heroin is 98 % pure, which is not what you normally get on the street and is way too pure for human consumption.

[1277] But Sid takes it and his friend takes him himself in almost overdoses and is like, be careful, this is really strong.

[1278] But then when the party breaks up and his friend leaves him with Sid with his mother, and the heroin and shortly after it seems like Sid kind of sneaks some heroin and takes more and in the morning his mother goes to wake him up and finds him dead from an overdose he is 21 years old and it's just four months after Nancy's death shit I mean yeah 21 21 and 20 also okay go ahead No, go ahead.

[1279] It just, how come we had a girlfriend immediately after?

[1280] I think they met at Rikers in, like, rehab or something.

[1281] Jesus Christ.

[1282] I met my first real boyfriend in rehab.

[1283] Oh.

[1284] But not for heroin.

[1285] Thank God.

[1286] Well, also, I mean, that's kind of a good place in some ways, because I guess you're all sitting in a circle.

[1287] Yeah.

[1288] Being super real and authentic.

[1289] We did stop doing meth together, so.

[1290] Nice.

[1291] I guess it worked.

[1292] But with Sid's death, the police closed the country.

[1293] case on Nancy, on Nancy's death and no further investigation is ever done.

[1294] And over the years, people have debated about Nancy's murder and whether or not Sid actually killed her.

[1295] And there's all these fucking theories.

[1296] In my estimation, and I think I kind of show this in the movie, you know, he gets, he's high, he gets annoyed with her, he stabs her, he goes back to sleep.

[1297] That's probably what happened.

[1298] But there is a possibility that he didn't kill her.

[1299] And because the amount of drugs he was on maybe he couldn't have woken up and there's other suspects there's drug dealers like in and out of the room the night before and the police did say that they had been robbed of $1 ,500 so but that could happen anyway so yeah but I mean and people hated her enough to have her kidnapped to get away from them right I mean like it's not like she was like beloved by all beloved by all exactly it's like God, there must have been so many suspects.

[1300] That's right.

[1301] But the police and the police discovered fingerprints belonging to six different people who had criminal records, but they never interviewed any of them.

[1302] And none of the visitors from the night before were ever interviewed.

[1303] The murder weapon had also been wiped down and cleaned.

[1304] Oh.

[1305] And no blood or fingerprints were found on it.

[1306] So that's a weird one, right?

[1307] Sounds like the cops were like two junkies killed each or like a donkey killed another junk.

[1308] and it's like we're not doing the paperwork.

[1309] But if he, yeah, if he had like in the middle of, you know, being passed out, stabbed her, I don't think he would have had the wherewith all to wipe.

[1310] Or maybe he did it right before he called the cops.

[1311] Seems unlikely, but yeah.

[1312] Who knows.

[1313] And then if she had done it, which a lot of people think that they did, why would she, how and why would she wipe it, wipe off the weapon?

[1314] That she stabbed herself?

[1315] Yeah.

[1316] And it is true that she had done.

[1317] like a you know suicide attempt before just to get his attention so it's not totally out of the realm of possibility and then there's also people who think that they had a suicide pact together when after sid's death his mom found a handwritten note in sid's leather jacket reading we had a death packed and i have to keep my half of the bargain please bury me next to my baby bury me in my my leather jacket jeans and motorcycle boots goodbye Wow.

[1318] So maybe he overdosed on purpose.

[1319] Who knows?

[1320] And it's also possible that Nancy, yeah, killed herself on accident because she was, you know, she was also, they were both also known to self -mutilate.

[1321] And so after finding that note, Anne contacts Nancy's parents and asked if Sid could be buried next to Nancy.

[1322] And they're like, hell no, first of all, she's being buried in a Jewish cemetery.

[1323] And second of all, like, we think he is part of the reason she's, you know, of course they were like, no. But Anne does climb over the fence of the cemetery and scatters some of Sid's ashes on Nancy's grave.

[1324] Oh, wow.

[1325] Wow.

[1326] What a mother.

[1327] She did it.

[1328] She did it.

[1329] She really did it.

[1330] So the biopic Sid and Nancy from 1986.

[1331] Amazing movie.

[1332] Amazing.

[1333] Directed by Alex Cox, who did Repo Man. Did you know that?

[1334] Of course you did that.

[1335] I mean.

[1336] Yeah.

[1337] So it's Sid is played by Gary Oldman.

[1338] and Nancy's played by Chloe Webb and and also of course musician Courtney Love was 22 that came out and she was like this is the role I'm fucking meant to play unfortunately she didn't get the role but she does play a smaller part as one of Nancy's friends yeah she's I mean she's a standout though that's the thing about Courtney Love I remember watching that movie and it's like oh no what's happening here yeah like you can't take your eyes off She never does anything half -assed.

[1339] No, no, sure.

[1340] She's the real deal.

[1341] So Sid's mother Anne takes her own life in 1996 at 63 years old.

[1342] And the guardian sums up the, that Sid and Nancy's tragedy as Romeo and Juliet with syringes.

[1343] And there is a poem that Sid wrote for Nancy that goes, you were my little baby girl and I knew all your fears, such joy to hold you in my arms and kiss away your tears.

[1344] But now you're gone.

[1345] There's only pain and nothing I can do.

[1346] And I don't want to live this life if I can't live for you.

[1347] So there might have an actual like real love there between the two of them and finally having someone who understood the other.

[1348] Yep.

[1349] But you can't add heroin into the mix.

[1350] Yeah.

[1351] Yeah.

[1352] For sure.

[1353] So music critic Lester Bangs legendary after Nancy's death said quote, Sid and Nancy were possibly two of the most pathologically tortured humans on the face of the earth.

[1354] And that is the deaths of Sid, vicious, and Nancy Spengen.

[1355] Wow.

[1356] Amazing.

[1357] Great job.

[1358] Thank you.

[1359] Said!

[1360] Everyone go watch Sid and Nancy.

[1361] It's so good.

[1362] Gary Oldman.

[1363] It's like Gary Oldman's like breakout role, right?

[1364] Yeah, he's so good.

[1365] He was in a, He was in a really good movie right before, I think before that, it was British, that was about a British playwright who was gay.

[1366] Now, I can't remember what that was called.

[1367] It was so good.

[1368] I read it today.

[1369] Yeah, I saw it today in one of the articles, but I can't remember what it was.

[1370] Isn't the word dog in the title?

[1371] I can't remember.

[1372] Let's see.

[1373] It's really good.

[1374] Very 90s.

[1375] And in the movie, in Sid and Nancy, Sid's mom gave Gary Oldman when he went to talk to her, gave him the actual chain and law.

[1376] that Sid wore to wear in the movie.

[1377] So that's the real one there.

[1378] Oh, wow.

[1379] Yeah.

[1380] Oh.

[1381] Yeah.

[1382] That's kind of cool.

[1383] Yeah.

[1384] God, that mom, man, what a talk about.

[1385] She's the third most tortured soul on the planet.

[1386] That's right.

[1387] I mean, pathologically, whatever.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] God, it's just so unhealthy.

[1390] It's so unhealthy and it's so like, oh, you didn't stand a chance.

[1391] No. Little kid.

[1392] Like, you didn't have a shot at a normal life.

[1393] And you know, what sucks is that the music, I think that a lot of people who had really shitty childhoods, they do go into music and it is their escape.

[1394] It is the, it is the release.

[1395] It's the thing that brings them somewhere else.

[1396] Yeah.

[1397] And he had the opportunity.

[1398] Clearly, he could play instruments.

[1399] He had a musical, like, you know, talent and, but, but fucking heroin.

[1400] Heroin ruins everything.

[1401] And there is this idea, too.

[1402] Like, if he had gone to Rikers and actually tried to get sober, maybe his life would have taken a total different, you know, trajectory and maybe Nancy's life if, you know, if she had had a chance to go home and, you know, recover a little and get real psychiatric help, then maybe her life could have been way different.

[1403] I bet she would have been pretty fucking awesome.

[1404] Yeah, but the thing that makes it so dark is like he couldn't do that because his own mom was like sabotaging.

[1405] Exactly.

[1406] That sucks so much.

[1407] Oh, I looked up the, um, that Vivian and Westwood documentary is called Westwood colon punk icon activists is from activist it's from 2018 cool it's really mind -blowing because i my um hilarious friend luke loves vivine westwood so much and he basically made me watch that and i didn't know i knew about her you know very tangentially and kind of like her cool style but not details right like she she really she was a driving force of the actual style of that late 70s which is such a huge part of it can almost say that one wouldn't exist without the other in a way and they say you know like all those styles of like having safety pins or wearing like you know the clothes they wore it was um part of it was because of the the there was really bad socio -economic it was like thatcher's england at that time and so they would have like the garbage men would go on strike and then so there was just garbage piled in the streets so when the teenagers would walk from like their house to a club there and i can't remember this if this might be in sidnancy or it might be in a documentary about that time they would just pick up garbage bags and put them on you know what i mean because it was just like garbage was everywhere it was like people were poor there were strikes all the time there's a lot of labor issues there was like there was so much um it was like a kind of a depression yeah and attention that was like very much like class class issues and that's why you know that that whole thing of like God save the queen and basically saying fuck you royals.

[1408] It took off because it was like we're all down here in the muck and literally in piles of garbage and you're in your tower like saying pay more taxes rough stuff.

[1409] All right Karen, I want to do fucking hooray's?

[1410] Yes.

[1411] I love it.

[1412] All right.

[1413] Do you want me to go first?

[1414] Sure.

[1415] This starts fucking hooray!

[1416] Hey MFM fam.

[1417] During the COVID -19 quarantine, I've been feeling hopeless and helpless as I'm not an essential worker nor a health care worker and I'm horrible with a needle and thread.

[1418] I felt there was something more I could be doing to contribute to supporting our community during this time.

[1419] My fucking hooray, my boyfriend and I took to walking around our community with trash bags and my old wagon collecting litter from parks and roadsides.

[1420] After just one weekend, we collected eight contractor trash bags fill to the brim.

[1421] If I can't fight the virus directly, at least I can fight pollution.

[1422] thanks for all you do keep killing the game and stay healthy for all our sake Shelby in bucks county pennsylvania that's awesome shelby that's fucking beautiful and important it's important for your mental health and it's so cool that you found something to do but you're helping your community and that's fucking beautiful it's really beautiful that's so smart um this one is from orangulant something okay hashtag fucking hooray my fucking hooray is for the staff at st mary's hospital in decatur illinois i went into their er late tuesday night with intense stomach pain and ended up needing an emergency appendectomy all the time so scary oh my god due to covid -19 my husband was not allowed to be with me and i had to go through the whole thing alone every single nurse doctor and staff member was gentle friendly and comforting i had never had surgery before so i had to go through the whole thing alone every single nurse doctor and staff member was gentle friendly and comforting i had never had surgery before so it was especially scary.

[1423] Everything went well and I'm back home recovering.

[1424] Oh, thank God.

[1425] Oh, my God.

[1426] How terrifying.

[1427] So terrifying.

[1428] I'm so glad that went well.

[1429] Yeah.

[1430] What a bummer to be like, I really don't want to go to the hospital.

[1431] Yeah.

[1432] And I have to go.

[1433] Yeah.

[1434] Okay, this is from Blood Splatter Analyst and it's Anna is in all caps.

[1435] So I'm assuming this person's name is Anna.

[1436] Hi.

[1437] My fucking hooray is that down my street, a little girl is always on her porch and every day she does something special for people walking by.

[1438] She has her violin practices out there, makes signs, yells out funny jokes, etc. She brings me joy every time I pass her and she loves when I say something back to her.

[1439] Stay home and safe, but make sure you still interact with others somehow, Anna.

[1440] That's so cute.

[1441] That is very cute.

[1442] We, Vince and I sit out front of our garage now in our lawn chairs and say hello to everyone walking by and silently judge.

[1443] them if they're not wearing masks but you know so true this is from science of myself says my fucking hooray for the week i work at a domestic violence shelter in central texas and this week our staff received a cookie delivery it was from bernay brown what and then it then there's a smiley face emoji a cookie emoji and a heart emoji how incredible i didn't know this when i talked about bernay brown at the top of the show i hadn't read this yet but what that's the whole story yeah they received a cookie delivery at their domestic violence shelter in central texas and it was from brine brown fuck yes brine brown i mean just class act just doing it right class that's beautiful yeah this one is from ashley ann ashley ann okay i'm a first time mom and my two -month -old baby girl cannot sleep for more than 15 minutes by herself alone in the bedroom.

[1444] She has to be sleeping right next to me or my husband or one of us has to hold her.

[1445] She will sleep for hours this way.

[1446] But this morning, after I fed her, I put her back down in the bedroom for a nap and she slept for all caps two and a half hours alone.

[1447] My husband and I were able to make ourselves breakfast and he worked on his laptop while I enjoyed some me time with a cup of coffee and a few chapters of the stranger beside me. Hell, yeah.

[1448] Also, I only peaked in on her once to make sure she was still breathing, which is a major progress, which is major progress, because I wanted to check in again like 80 more times, but I talked myself down.

[1449] Baby steps, literally.

[1450] Fucking hooray from me and my baby girl, S .S .DGM, Ashley Ann.

[1451] Oh, good job, Ashley Ann.

[1452] You know, my mom used to tell the story when she had my sister, her first baby.

[1453] she would go in every 15 minutes with a mirror because she wanted to make sure Laura was still breathing.

[1454] I bet.

[1455] It's just terrifying.

[1456] How could you not?

[1457] Totally.

[1458] Okay, here's my last one.

[1459] This is from mushroom beast.

[1460] My hashtag fucking hooray is that my mom, Linda, gave me a thumbs up yesterday.

[1461] My mom had a stroke in February and it was the scariest day I've ever experienced.

[1462] She was totally healthy, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink.

[1463] And one Sunday morning, she just had a stroke.

[1464] She was paralyzed down her left side for a while.

[1465] And with intense physiotherapy, her movement is coming back.

[1466] And we kept joking that when she could give me a thumbs up, we'd celebrate.

[1467] Well, yesterday I came downstairs and she was sitting grinning at me with her thumb up.

[1468] Ugh.

[1469] She's the strongest woman I know.

[1470] And she has just been so determined and focused in her recovery.

[1471] So fucking hooray and thumbs up.

[1472] Yes.

[1473] Oh, my God.

[1474] Praise of the little things you focus on, like, and that matter once, you know, once everything is real.

[1475] Yeah, when you get that perspective of like, listen, this is the thing that it gives us a lot of stress and a lot of, you know, panicky feelings.

[1476] But there is this advantage to looking at life like that could happen to you or you could catch the cerebral disease or something.

[1477] That this is not, we are lucky every moment that we have with our health.

[1478] is a gift and we should treat ourselves like it's a gift and we should treat other people like it's a gift and we should all go out onto our symbolic porches with our symbolic violins and play them for other people and be nice to your neighbors and wave to people and like get in the game while you still can it's important I love that it's so true it's so true I really really hope that we come out of this whenever we come out of it a little kinder everyone is a little more easy on everyone else and a little kinder well I think already a lot of us and it's only been about two months really of starting to appreciate the like other human beings and the the potential connection and the connections that we have and the things that we miss and like that all those things like that the screen doesn't give it to you and like the internet does not give it to you and you can only really get it from people in front of you and and so yeah hopefully that's something that doesn't just immediately evaporate the second we're all like woohoo it's over i can go go baseball game or whatever yeah for sure and you know thanks all of you for listening everyone is uh people say such nice things to us online about you know continuing to do this podcast for me it's a gift to get to what a miracle that this you know that we get to do that and we have these people that care so much and listen and give a shit i mean Like, it's really nice.

[1479] Yeah.

[1480] It's really, really, it's really a gift.

[1481] So thank you guys.

[1482] Thank you.

[1483] We're so incredibly lucky and grateful for you guys.

[1484] Send your fucking array.

[1485] It's just hashtag them and we'll read them next week, maybe.

[1486] Yeah, bigger, small, whatever, whatever's going on with you.

[1487] It's very, it's very good for your mental health to keep a gratitude list.

[1488] And so try to try to do it and try to find those moments so that you can fucking hooray along with us.

[1489] And in the meantime, stay sexy.

[1490] And don't get murdered.

[1491] Goodbye.

[1492] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1493] Yeah?