Viggo Mortensen

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I am Mike Dicca.

[2] Today, we have one of my very, very favorite actors.

[3] And I've not heard him get interviewed a bunch.

[4] I'm sure you love him as well.

[5] Vigo Mortensen.

[6] Vigo Mortensen is an Oscar -nominated actor, writer, and director.

[7] I mean, he was fantastic in Green Book a couple years ago.

[8] Lord of the Rings trilogy.

[9] And then my favorite, Captain Fantastic, who I'm trying to be like, Eastern Promises.

[10] He has a new movie scored, written, directed, and starring Vigo.

[11] It's called Falling.

[12] Falling follows John dealing with the early stages of dementia in his conservative father.

[13] Now, we get into some really fascinating conversations about dementia and the experiences that Vigo has had.

[14] So please enjoy Vigo Mortensen.

[15] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[16] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[17] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[18] Are you in Spain?

[19] Yes.

[20] You're doing a full press tour from your den?

[21] I have done some of it in Europe where they were open and then they closed places.

[22] And that was great except for I sort of felt like I was the angel of death because every time I'd leave a country...

[23] They would close it down.

[24] Now, I'm an enormous fan, Vigo.

[25] I'm obsessed with all things, Sean Penn. I'm obsessed all things Bukowski, which led me to Sean Penn. And then, of course, Indian Runner.

[26] But that was his first directing effort, I think.

[27] And so I sprinted to the movie theater to see that.

[28] And of course, that's when I was introduced to you.

[29] And I promptly found love.

[30] I think you're so spectacular.

[31] And because I like you, I know that you don't do this.

[32] Or at least I perceive that you don't do this.

[33] You're not much of a publicity machine, are you?

[34] Generally, do you try to avoid it?

[35] I do do the publicity.

[36] I don't do the, I'm not a big social media maven.

[37] I'm not a...

[38] I don't know.

[39] I'm not a...

[40] Okay, so why I'm surprised it took so long is it's not like you just were pursuing acting for the last 30 years.

[41] You also are a painter and a writer and a poet and a million other things.

[42] So what that tells me is that you, you are super interested in being a part of the creation of something.

[43] So why did it take so long?

[44] To direct?

[45] Yeah.

[46] It wasn't for lack of trying.

[47] First time I think I tried to get a movie made that I wanted to direct from a screenplay I'd written was, I think it was about 25 years ago.

[48] And I've tried many times with different screenplays I've written over the years.

[49] Even the falling took me to three times, really, to finally get enough money.

[50] I didn't, you know, when it came right down to it, I had hoped.

[51] for a seven -week shoot and we ended up with five and we started shooting knowing or I knew I didn't tell the actors but that we had enough for two weeks and we were going to keep looking and you know typical thing with independent movies and two weeks in my co -producer came over to me and said you got a minute and I go yeah sure what's up and he says um you can finish the movie I go what do you mean finish the movie because you can finish shooting I said of course we're finish shooting.

[52] It's going good.

[53] You know, it's going really well.

[54] He goes, no, no, I mean, you have the money.

[55] Oh, oh.

[56] And I completely forgot.

[57] But, no, sometimes you just have to go for it.

[58] I thought, you know, I'm tired of waiting.

[59] It's not only 25 years, but it's been a few years with this movie.

[60] So I called up to cinematographer and Marcel.

[61] And I said, let's meet.

[62] Let's go to Canada.

[63] Let's go find these places.

[64] And I start shooting.

[65] Don't you think that's the gift, though?

[66] So there's all these hurdles of having no money and no time, but then I think the silver lining is like everyone has so much more ownership of it because everyone knows what's on the line.

[67] Like everyone has to show up or it won't work and there's some awareness of that.

[68] And then I think that just everyone having a stake in it just makes for such a unique experience.

[69] It's so special to be on a tiny thing that everyone has to show up.

[70] Yeah, definitely.

[71] And especially, you know, when you're shooting in difficult conditions.

[72] I mean, we're shooting in the dead of winter out in the of the countryside and it was tough and nobody's getting rich you know so yeah yeah either they're really into it sincerely or they're they're not or they're griping or you know but everybody pulled together and it was it was really supportive it was a great feeling now you have a really really interesting childhood in that you grew up in america for a period your dad's danish and then you moved to Argentina.

[73] As an infant, I was born in New York City and then as an infant.

[74] My dad got a job in South America and then he got another job after that.

[75] We stayed down there.

[76] Most of the first decade in my life, I lived in South America.

[77] Okay.

[78] And so you must have a very complicated identity.

[79] Because so much of my story I tell myself is like, oh, I'm from Michigan.

[80] This is what we're like in Michigan.

[81] Auto industry, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[82] But yours is such a quilt.

[83] And I just wonder, zero to ten is really formative.

[84] So do you identify more with that culture than ours, or is it a weird amalgam because you came back to New York?

[85] Well, kids adapt very quickly, you know.

[86] I have two younger brothers, Charles and Walter, that the movie's dedicated to.

[87] And they change even quicker.

[88] I mean, my Walter, the youngest, was six.

[89] I was 11 and Charles was eight.

[90] When we moved, my parents split up and my mom moved back to where she's from, northern New York state.

[91] And when we were flying up there, you know, with my mom after this kind of acrimonious split, and my mom explained to me, you know, we're going to be living in the grandparents' house and I'll see what happens.

[92] And I said to Walter, the youngest, I said, okay, he had never spoken to me or to my mother, to anybody in any other language than Spanish, right?

[93] Even though he understood English.

[94] And my mom would complain, she would say to him, I remember one time he was probably about four, and I was nine.

[95] And she said, you know, I want your brother to answer me in English.

[96] It makes no sense.

[97] I know he understands me because I asked him the question in English and he answers me perfectly in Spanish.

[98] So I went to him and I said, answer her in English, you know, just it's not that much to ask.

[99] He goes, no, it's a garbage language.

[100] I go, where did you get that?

[101] He's four years old.

[102] It's a garbage language.

[103] Who told you that?

[104] I just, everybody knows it.

[105] I'm like, on the plane, I'm sitting with my brothers.

[106] I go, my mom's asleep or whatever.

[107] And I said, we're going to have to speak English.

[108] Okay.

[109] But within a week, he was speaking perfect.

[110] Yeah.

[111] Like the slang, all the swear words from that moment, from that time, that place.

[112] Perfect adaptation.

[113] You know, I adapted to.

[114] And I thought I was completely in.

[115] But every once in a while someone would say, that's weird how you write those letters or how you do this or how you use that word.

[116] What's that word mean?

[117] You know, I mean, so...

[118] Yeah.

[119] It's true that if I run into Argentine people, I'm, like, right back.

[120] Yeah, yeah.

[121] You know what I mean?

[122] It's just what I was raised with.

[123] So that's true.

[124] Well, I think I've heard you say that, like, speaking in Spanish for you is easier to get to the emotional center of what you're talking about than when you're speaking in English.

[125] It depends what it's about.

[126] Certain kinds of poems or stories or maybe easier in Spanish.

[127] It depends.

[128] But I also have, you know, from my dad and I live some years there in Denmark, to.

[129] I also have that.

[130] That's a different culture, different sense of humor.

[131] And now you're in the role because you're the older brother.

[132] You got to help out.

[133] I've taken four of those trips in the car where we were leaving whatever dad just was there.

[134] Yeah.

[135] And then the little game plan talk, right?

[136] We're going to this place.

[137] You know, you're going to go to this school.

[138] So I'm quite familiar with that.

[139] But I was the middle child.

[140] And I know it was on my brother.

[141] And I wonder when you're giving the speech on the plane, how fearful are you to be going to northern New York?

[142] York on the border of Canada.

[143] Are you afraid?

[144] Part of it seemed like an adventure, but part of it was annoying, because I had friendships.

[145] Yeah.

[146] You know, and this is a time, we're talking in 1970.

[147] I was leaving behind for good.

[148] I mean, it wasn't like now, everybody has iPhones.

[149] I mean, there was no internet.

[150] There was no, there wasn't even cable TV at that point.

[151] Yeah, call would have been like 80 bucks for five minutes.

[152] Yeah.

[153] Yeah.

[154] Exactly.

[155] And if you could get through.

[156] And then on the TV, you know, It wasn't like I could email.

[157] Yeah.

[158] I knew I was saying goodbye, for real, to a lot of friends.

[159] Your whole life, you were saying goodbye to every part of your life you knew.

[160] Just certain the smells, the sounds, the language.

[161] Language is important, you know.

[162] And, you know, things that I cared a lot about, like football, soccer.

[163] Mm -hmm.

[164] But you adapt, you know, I mean, I have moved around quite a bit.

[165] Did you play sports when you got to the States?

[166] I started swimming when I'm competitively.

[167] I like that.

[168] That feels like a compromise.

[169] Yeah, I'll meet you halfway.

[170] How about I swim?

[171] And I also was watching TV one day, and I saw something I'd never seen, which was ice hockey.

[172] I'm like, what the hell is that?

[173] I'm trying to follow it.

[174] I'm just like, it's kind of like soccer, but with sticks and really fast.

[175] And I got really into it.

[176] And at that time, the Montreal Canadians were amazing.

[177] They were in their golden years.

[178] And I became interested in that.

[179] And that replaced soccer.

[180] for me. So I became like a fanatical Canadians fan and still in.

[181] Do you hate the Red Wings?

[182] No, I don't hate anybody.

[183] Okay.

[184] So you lov, can we say lov them?

[185] I'm partial to the original six.

[186] Okay.

[187] All right.

[188] That's fair.

[189] But I'm not, I'm not, even in, you know, in Argentina, it's like a matter of life and death.

[190] And it's gotten really bad, you know, so much so that even before the pandemic, you know, you could only have home fans.

[191] You couldn't have visiting.

[192] fans because they would shoot each other.

[193] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[194] Goalie got killed, very famously, I think, when he got home.

[195] I saw that game.

[196] That was the 1994 World Cup in Los Angeles.

[197] I was living there, and I went with my son, and that was United States beat Columbia.

[198] And a defender, it's just bad luck.

[199] A ball went off him and ricocheted, and goalie couldn't stop it.

[200] It was an own goal.

[201] And when he got, I think you're referring to that.

[202] When he got back to Columbia, he was in whatever his hometown is, and he came out of a bar and somebody just shot him for having to let that goal on.

[203] I mean, again, talk about that's the power of identity right there, the in and out.

[204] But I mean, whether it's sports or any other walk of life, I mean, look what the hell happened in the Capitol.

[205] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[206] So that's no different than that insanity.

[207] But whether we're talking politics or sports, I think this thing of my team is extraordinary, it's the best team.

[208] It's like, well, it's the team I like the most.

[209] but it doesn't mean that I can't admire or even cheer when I see a great play by someone else.

[210] I'm with you.

[211] I wear a maple leaf sweater all the time and people get really upset because I'm from Detroit.

[212] And I love the wings.

[213] But by God, I also like the maple leaves and they got the best fucking merch.

[214] I wouldn't go so far as to wear their sweater.

[215] I'm going to send one to you.

[216] And when you see that color in person, that blue.

[217] I've seen it.

[218] I've shot in Toronto for David Cronberg.

[219] And one thing I did on the first movie I did with a history of violence is I would, whenever I had to do some kind of violent thing and I was off screen, I would put on the Canadian sweater in Toronto and the crew would jeer and stuff.

[220] And so on the final day at rap, they gave me, signed by the entire crew, a Maple Leafs sweater.

[221] And I had to put it on for the photo.

[222] But I said, the only way I'll do this is I can wear a cap, you know, a red much all -Canadian shirt.

[223] Well, if you're like Marie condoing your closet and you want to get rid of it, I'll shoot you my address because I'll wear the hell out of it and I'll take all the hate for it.

[224] I don't mind.

[225] Really?

[226] Yeah, yeah.

[227] But I think that this thing of that sports fans sometimes do where they take it too far.

[228] The tribalism, that you and me and we're different because of this, that's where it breaks down for me. And I think there's one thing I have to say that I feel.

[229] And it's not just, it doesn't just happen in the United States, but it's one of the countries where it's noticeably.

[230] a feature, almost an obligation for all politicians, no matter what strike they are, to go on about American exceptionalism.

[231] And to me, that is not constructive, because it's the same bullshit.

[232] It's like, no, the United States is great.

[233] Yeah.

[234] You know, but it's not greater than any other place.

[235] It's human beings.

[236] It's planet Earth.

[237] Yeah.

[238] You know, and you have a lot to be proud of.

[239] There's people that have come from all over the world that have contributed, science, arts, everything.

[240] The scariest moment I ever had in my marriage is I asked my wife what was on her New Year's resolution list, and she said nothing.

[241] And I said, oh, so your work is done?

[242] Forget all the other stuff about how they compare relative to any other country.

[243] It doesn't matter to me. Again, I'm an addict.

[244] So it's like you start with, yeah, fucking I have a ton of character defects.

[245] I'm going to try for the rest of my life to minimize those.

[246] So to start with, I'm exceptional, is not a place where growth is going to follow.

[247] Right?

[248] It means I got my shit together.

[249] If you met a gal at a bar and she said, oh, I'm perfect, you'd walk.

[250] Well, it doesn't lead me anywhere to go.

[251] That's what you're...

[252] No, you're saying this, well, this is the best it'll ever be.

[253] If I've already reached perfection, then that's it.

[254] We've capped out.

[255] We're done with the journey.

[256] But while you were talking really quick, I think we had to have had the same shared experience, which is I did a movie really shortly after you guys wrapped, Lord of the Rings, In fact, we had a lot of your hair and costume, which were the most lovely Kiwis.

[257] But I got insatiable for the all blacks, and I had never seen rugby.

[258] But the Hawka, like what an awesome way to do everything we want to do.

[259] The ritualized hyper -masculinity, the threats, the shit talk.

[260] But it's done in this way that is like it's been made safe through centuries of the Hawka.

[261] That's pretty big in Argentina, too.

[262] So I grew up with that a little bit.

[263] And that was wonderful to be in during that long.

[264] I went to see a lot of rugby and schoolboy rugby too.

[265] And even our crew, you know, the way someone might get out a couple of a pair of Mets and, you know, play catch during the lunch break on a crew, there they would grab a, there was always a ball around and they would play rugby and get all muddy and stuff.

[266] And I hadn't got shit for it one time because I did it in my costume and it was not a good thing.

[267] Now, you love language.

[268] Did you ever ask any of the Maori guys what they were saying in the hawka?

[269] They told me they're saying our dicks are bigger than yours.

[270] It's mostly about their dicks, which I was excited to learn.

[271] Yeah, and it's also about fighting.

[272] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[273] You know, I'm going to kill you and I'm going to eat you.

[274] You know, whatever.

[275] If I can get this cumbersome penis out of my way, I'm going to eventually eat you.

[276] Yeah, no, it's threatening.

[277] It's laying down the gauntlet, basically, but it's beautiful to watch.

[278] There was, I don't know if you saw the one they played, Argentina beat New Zealand for the first time in its history recently a couple months ago.

[279] And the haka that they performed that day was right after Diego Maradona had died, the great soccer player, right?

[280] And so they came out and they laid down a black shirt, like an all black shirt, but with a name Maradona number 10 on it.

[281] And they laid it down in front of the other team, which got them all emotional and, you know, Argentines.

[282] And then they did the most aggressive hawkker.

[283] guy I've ever seen.

[284] And then they beat them like 35 to nothing.

[285] They kick their ass.

[286] It's like, here you go, tender hearts, and then boom.

[287] It was kind of a Trojan horse.

[288] Yeah, maybe so.

[289] The best is when I was down there and the All Blacks played whatever the Tongan team was.

[290] And they were, both teams are doing it at the same time.

[291] And I'm like, oh my God, if I could have been there to experience it coming from both sides would have been something else.

[292] It's so cool.

[293] When I first thought, I was like, oh, this is kind of, this seems silly.

[294] And then midway through, I'm like, this is a little bit scary.

[295] And then by the end, I'm like, I would be terrified about us on this field.

[296] It's beautiful, though.

[297] In rugby, it's kind of like they play really hard.

[298] They injure each other.

[299] But they kind of shake hands.

[300] There's something polite about it, strangely.

[301] Yeah, very, very New Zealand, too.

[302] So after you went to college, you then lived in Denmark, which you just hinted at.

[303] In Copenhagen, you drove a truck, you lived in Spain, you lived in England.

[304] Do you have wonderlust?

[305] Were you just curious, or having split your own life up to that point in two different places, were you on the search for like, where do I want to be?

[306] Or is it just wonderlust?

[307] Well, I like being in Denmark just because I was close to my cousins.

[308] We would visit them every couple of years since I was, I think two, the first time I went there.

[309] And, you know, I learned the language, and I don't know, I had a very good relationship with all my cousins.

[310] there.

[311] There was a connection that I had with my Danish cousins.

[312] It was particularly strong and my aunts and uncles.

[313] And I really like being there.

[314] And since my dad was Danish, it was something I wanted to explore and spend some time there.

[315] And I did live there for a few years and worked there and had different jobs.

[316] And I like being there.

[317] And I've continued to go back there a lot.

[318] You know, like when I watch the World Cup, I'm always hoping it'll be, I mean, you know, there's the U .S. sometimes is in the World Cup, and Denmark is often in the World Cup.

[319] Argentina's almost always there.

[320] You're kind of lucky you have a lot of poker's in the fire.

[321] Like most of the games you could enjoy because you've lived there.

[322] That's true.

[323] It's like I got three lotto tickets.

[324] No, but I was talking about exceptionalism, U .S. I mean, a lot of countries do that, some less than others.

[325] But in the U .S., it seems like it's almost like I was saying obligatory for politicians to use that phrase at some point.

[326] And if they don't, it's wrong with them.

[327] It's not productive.

[328] But anyway, because I've moved around a lot and been exposed to a lot of cultures and languages, I concluded a long time ago that it's more important how you are than where you are.

[329] Yeah, you can make friends anywhere, really.

[330] If you try a little bit, you can find something to appreciate about any place, any landscape, any culture.

[331] If you're open to it, you know, you only go around once, you might as well learn.

[332] And so there's a lot of places, obviously Argentina, obviously, the U .S., particularly, you know, the northeast, but L .A. I lived there for a long time, too, so I have a lot of feelings.

[333] And I've crisscrossed the country, road trips in the U .S. and Canada so many times that I know lots of states, there's lots of corners of North America that I really like and I'd love to go back to.

[334] But I feel that way about a lot of different places I've been.

[335] New Zealand, spent so much time there.

[336] drove everywhere.

[337] I never flew.

[338] I just wanted to be able to go camping and fishing and do things and get to know people.

[339] And so the more places I go, the more places I feel like, yeah, I could be, I could live there.

[340] I could be happy here.

[341] What's the longest you ever lived somewhere?

[342] Have you done that math?

[343] Well, now I would say, you know, I lived in L .A. actually.

[344] I lived in L .A. from Yeah, there.

[345] What was your pocket?

[346] Were you like a Silver Lake person?

[347] I want to stereotype you, and you're being very elusive.

[348] But what part of the city were you most at home in?

[349] I was in Venice most of the time.

[350] There we go.

[351] That makes a lot of sense, yeah.

[352] Where do you live?

[353] You're in Los Angeles right now.

[354] Yeah, Los Felis, so right next to Silver Lake.

[355] Where do you live?

[356] Same.

[357] Yeah, we live three minutes apart by car, and I also just purchased a house that's 20 steps away.

[358] Literally, our drive.

[359] Now Connect.

[360] How does that feel?

[361] Well, I haven't moved in yet.

[362] We have a lot of renovation to do.

[363] So we'll see.

[364] We'll see.

[365] We'll see is the answer I'm sticking to.

[366] We're thrilled about it.

[367] I'm excited.

[368] I'm excited.

[369] Yeah, we're quite thrilled.

[370] My wife and I. This couldn't be better.

[371] We're trying to take over a whole pocket of Los Felis.

[372] You're invited.

[373] It seems like I'd invite you just based on this conversation.

[374] You don't seem like an annoying neighbor that's going to trouble me for too much.

[375] many things.

[376] No, I keep to myself a lot.

[377] Yeah.

[378] Okay.

[379] The reason I want to know about all the moving around, because I was going to say I have the opposite reaction to kind of a similar childhood where we moved a lot and I restarted so much that I've been in our current house for 16 years.

[380] It's the longest I've lived anywhere by a factor of like eight.

[381] And we're just about to move to a new house.

[382] My wife's idea.

[383] It's only a thousand feet from our old house.

[384] And that's still scaring me a little bit.

[385] And I just never wanted to.

[386] I have wanderlust.

[387] I love going places and having like a month experience or three, but I think I craved the roots.

[388] And I'm basically being surgically removed from our current house.

[389] Are you homesick for your childhood homes?

[390] Only one of them.

[391] I have this very rose -colored glasses view of a certain house I lived in in Milford, where I met my best friend, where I became who I think I still mostly in.

[392] And yeah, that place holds.

[393] I would have stayed there forever, maybe.

[394] And are you still friends?

[395] Is he still alive, that guy?

[396] He's at my house.

[397] He's a thousand feet away.

[398] I sent him to treatment last year.

[399] He's a year sober.

[400] We're back in business.

[401] It's fucking awesome.

[402] That just keeps all the people he likes, like, within 10 feet.

[403] That's the, yeah, ideally.

[404] That's good.

[405] Do you have any childhood friends that you still pale around with?

[406] From Argentina, I did lose touch with them.

[407] I know at least two of them didn't make it through what happened in the 70s down there.

[408] Oh, wow.

[409] I don't know exactly what happened, but there's one that now lives in England that I've talked to and we communicate a little bit.

[410] But I lost, I mean, that was a real severing when we went to northern New York.

[411] And by the time, communication and Internet, all that thing happened, it was too late.

[412] And it took me a long time before I went back to Argentina, many years.

[413] years.

[414] I mean, I didn't go back for 25 years, maybe.

[415] But when I went back, even though now there were McDonald's and there was all these other things, it still was the same.

[416] It still smelled the same.

[417] The people talked that way, even on the plane flying back, 25 years ago, it was exciting.

[418] It was like, wow.

[419] I stayed up all night just listening to them, you know, talking.

[420] It was like, this is so familiar.

[421] Yeah, it's in your cells.

[422] And every word, every aspect, as soon as I landed, Yeah, this sort of heat, this humidity and the music on the radio and walking around the street.

[423] It was just wonderful.

[424] And I found a car from some guy who was kind of like a half -ass rental car.

[425] It wasn't, I don't know how much of a company it was.

[426] He probably had like three, two and a half cars.

[427] And I got the half car.

[428] No spare and kind of iffy.

[429] But I took it and I did a massive road trip, you know, for days and days around the country.

[430] And I went to places I remembered going to.

[431] as a kid.

[432] Farms, we lived down that area.

[433] And it was really wonderful to go back.

[434] But it was funny that people would say, where are you from?

[435] What are you?

[436] Because they said, well, you talk like my grandfather.

[437] And because in 25 years, my swear words, all my slang was the old as hell.

[438] Yeah, yeah.

[439] Yeah.

[440] And my sort of sentence structures was that of an 11 -year -old.

[441] year old boy, not a 36 year old man, you know.

[442] So yeah, it was interesting.

[443] Sorry, it went off on that tangent.

[444] No, I love it.

[445] What I'm detecting is that you and I have, I think, an opposite batch of fears.

[446] So I think what I immediately know about you is you have a comfort with being untethered, or it seems like you have a comfort.

[447] So just the fact that my best friend, Aaron Weekly is a thousand feet away.

[448] I am happiest next to him, because I remember exactly who either I think I am, want to be, whatever it is, I can't live without that.

[449] And it goes to the houses and wanting to be in the same place.

[450] And I'm thinking of your life and I'm filled with anxiety about how gracefully you whisper around the globe.

[451] And I just can conclude we must have completely opposite fears.

[452] Maybe.

[453] I'm not afraid of it.

[454] I mean, I have nostalgia.

[455] I have Are you afraid to be alone?

[456] Do you mind being alone?

[457] No, I crave it.

[458] I crave it.

[459] Okay.

[460] You don't You don't need approval every five minutes like I do?

[461] I can spend two weeks, and I've done this many times where I don't even talk to anyone on the phone.

[462] And I realize maybe after a few days, I haven't said anything.

[463] So I don't want to listen to a song.

[464] I don't want to lose my voice.

[465] No, I don't mind.

[466] I'm happy.

[467] But I think that, you know, memory is a tricky thing.

[468] And that's, you know, in our movie, that's something that's really important.

[469] And I think that what we do with what we remember, it's more a collection of feelings than it is a collection of facts.

[470] because, you know, we think, well, the present, the present is confusing, never more so than now, of course, but it's always, it's in flux, it's kind of developing.

[471] It's undefined, the present.

[472] The future is completely unknown.

[473] Obviously, it hasn't happened.

[474] So we tend to think, well, at least the past, you know, I've got videos, I've got photo albums, I've got diaries.

[475] But you're telling the story from a point of view.

[476] You're taking the picture from a point of view.

[477] Everything's a point of view.

[478] And those things evolve.

[479] I think we try to control the past, without, even thinking about it so that we can be comfortable in the present.

[480] You know what I mean?

[481] We're constantly trying to make sense of the present day with this data set from the past, which, as you point out, is the most subjective thing in the world.

[482] My brother and I will be arguing about, like, it happened in a different house.

[483] And it's like, how could you not remember?

[484] And it's like, it was summer or you weren't even there.

[485] Yes, I was.

[486] Yes, and you just start realizing like, oh, this is the most fly.

[487] I can't even believe they allow human testimony in a court of law because I know from my own experience, it's so deeply flawed.

[488] And you're right, I'm more latched onto a version that helps me make sense of why I'm here today feeling this way.

[489] I think everybody does that.

[490] I mean, I think to some degree everybody does that.

[491] And you got to wonder what dementia then, if that's not what you're accumulating to define while you're here today, it must be, I can only imagine, it must be terrifying.

[492] Well, dementia is something.

[493] I mean, there's a couple reasons I wanted to write this story, you know, falling, one of them.

[494] And I was, in fact, I had another screenplay, and I had raised some of the money.

[495] I was in the middle of doing that when I got the idea to write this one.

[496] And it was right after my mother's funeral.

[497] She had had dementia.

[498] And that's something I've seen up close, and even in a caregiver kind of role, several times.

[499] Both my parents, my stepdad, three of my four grandparents, aunts, uncles.

[500] I've seen it a lot.

[501] And with my mother and father especially.

[502] When she passed away, I was, as you do, somebody you care about dies.

[503] there's a lot of things that are present that aren't normally present on a daily basis, just things she said or images of her.

[504] And you're also, you're looking at photographs, you're trading stories.

[505] And I was hearing stories that I was familiar with.

[506] But like you say, there's slightly different versions.

[507] Yeah, by a different director.

[508] Same script, you know, we were there.

[509] We were all there, but that's interesting you put it that way.

[510] And stories I hadn't known.

[511] So I thought that's interesting.

[512] And I started writing them down on the way home.

[513] I wanted to remember these things.

[514] And it made me think how, like you say, how subjective memory is.

[515] When I looked at these notes, I thought, this is an interesting structure for some kind of story, maybe a short story.

[516] Jumping around in time, different people's points of view, what is at stake for one person and a memory that isn't at all important to another person?

[517] And so that different version, all that kind of stuff.

[518] And so I started writing this story, and then it ends up being a fictional family.

[519] You know, I started writing and thinking about my mother.

[520] And it became falling, which is mostly made up.

[521] You know, it ends up instead of being about this woman, it ends up being about a father and son mostly.

[522] But for me, the heart of the story of falling is the mother.

[523] She's what they're mostly arguing about, how they remember her, how one thinks the other one's disrespecting her, whatever.

[524] And same with Laura Linney, who plays my sister in the story, her relationship with the father, they come, they butt heads or have differences of opinion based on the memory.

[525] memory, the differing memories of our mother, you know?

[526] Yeah, yeah.

[527] So the dementia aspect, you know, that's what Willis suffers from, the character Lance Henrickson plays.

[528] I wanted to, with the help of hopefully a really good actor, which I got in Lance Henrikson, and then the tools that you have in filmmaking, I wanted to get across what it's like for a person like that, how that looks, but also how that feels, to some degree for them as best I could.

[529] And even in the really good movies, and there's one or two this year that they deal with dementia as well, and there have been several good portrayals of that, dementia or Alzheimer's over the years.

[530] But the one thing that I've always felt, that I thought we could do something else with or that didn't at least reflect my personal experience, was that they generally show these people that have dementia as being confused, for the most part, right?

[531] And if they show their point of view, it's that of a confused person by and large.

[532] And in my experience, the people who are confused are the observers for the most part.

[533] They're not confused because they're really seeing, feeling, and hearing those things.

[534] That is they're present.

[535] Whether you like it or not, they're like, they're there.

[536] They're happy or sad, but they're there.

[537] They're not confused.

[538] When they do tend to get confused as if you correct them.

[539] You know, like, you know, I can give examples.

[540] Like, you know, for example, like maybe my father is talking to me. He says, you know, I had lunch with Harry and he's not looking so good.

[541] And I know that Harry died 37 years ago.

[542] And your instinct is to say, well, Dad, you know, Harry's been gone a long time.

[543] You know that.

[544] And you're thinking you're helping.

[545] And then they get not only confused but upset because Harry dies again.

[546] Oh, right, right, right.

[547] And it's an instinct that you want to correct them.

[548] But you have to, after realizing that that's not a good idea that you've only upset them, then you have to ask yourself, who am I doing this for?

[549] Oh.

[550] I'm doing it for me. It's my ego.

[551] I want him to be the way he was.

[552] I don't want him to make these mistakes.

[553] You know what I mean?

[554] But no, it's a selfish need to correct.

[555] And it's just a learning experience that you have to adapt.

[556] In any relationship, you have to adapt to that other person as they evolve.

[557] And with someone who has dementia, if you really want to be helpful with them, you have to give up, you have to sacrifice what you wish they were because they're not going to be that way anymore.

[558] and make them happy.

[559] So what do you do?

[560] So he just said, you know, Harry and I, we had lunch and he doesn't look so good.

[561] So instead of saying Harry's dead, you say, what did you guys have for lunch?

[562] Right.

[563] And then you have a conversation.

[564] Now, you have to give up your mind.

[565] That's not real and you're lying or it's weird.

[566] It doesn't have to be.

[567] If they're happy, give the other person what they need in any relationship, but especially someone who has dementia.

[568] if you dare What's up guys This your girl Kiki And my podcast is back with a new season And let me tell you It's too good And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest Okay, every episode I bring on a friend And have a real conversation And I don't mean just friends I mean the likes of Amy Polar Kelle Mitchell, Vivica Fox The list goes on So follow, watch and listen to Baby This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app Or wherever you get your podcast We've all been there.

[569] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[570] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[571] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[572] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[573] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[574] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[575] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[576] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[577] I got to say, so the lesson I learned, once, thank God, and then I got to apply it the second time was my dad died of lung cancer and I was the guy taking care of everything and I was trying to like, dad, why are you eating this fucking hamburger?

[578] You know, you're not supposed to do that.

[579] You know, while you're doing this, I tried very hard to, you know, give him the best shot possible.

[580] And after he died, my only regrets, because I was there, I felt good about the whole thing, was just like, why did I waste 30 minutes of that last four months arguing about a hamburger?

[581] What a fucking waste, right?

[582] Nagging him, yeah.

[583] And then so then my stepfather died of cancer a year and a half ago, and I approached that one with like, this is his deal.

[584] He'll pick treatment he wants.

[585] I'll have no opinion of that.

[586] If he doesn't want to do this, that's cool.

[587] It's his thing.

[588] I'm just here to kind of be present.

[589] And it went so much better taking that approach.

[590] But I would imagine it's then just an extra step harder with dementia, because again, you have the illusion that you be helping.

[591] like no dad uh henry's dad let's keep it on track here we got to you know you think you're letting someone slip further into this disease but it's the same thing as arguing about a fucking hamburger it's silly yeah and the best thing you can be but that's any relationship is flexible right i mean adapt to them every person's different every day no matter whether they have dementia or not and people who have dementia i've seen like my stepfather was a very uh soft -spoken friendly good sense of humor.

[592] He was just easy, right?

[593] And when he got it, he became, he was like gollum from the Lord.

[594] He was just like, he was eyes, bulged.

[595] He would need so he was very skinny.

[596] And he was a holy terror.

[597] And he would do crazy stuff.

[598] He would get up in the middle of the night and put on two or three ties and three coats.

[599] And then he'd go outside.

[600] And then, you know, a neighbor would call my mom at three, four in the morning and say, your husband's here.

[601] where and then he'd be like four blocks away and he was like shoveling their sidewalk or sweeping their you know doing something yeah just but then when somebody would confront him he would get really angry even at the very end i mean she couldn't anymore we had to find a place for him because my mom wasn't getting any sleep you know and we would go there and he was tough he was tough for the people there there was a period towards the end he wouldn't eat he wouldn't let them wash him he let nothing and he would let me but i had to do tricks you know i would show him him a picture of my mom, you know, like when they met.

[602] And he would go, oh, he's pretty lady, you know, like that.

[603] And he'd be looking at her, and I would start feeding him cookies or something.

[604] And then I would eventually get him to, and then I'd say, yeah, yeah.

[605] And then I would get him to eat food.

[606] And then I would talk to him about whatever I could figure out that he would be interested in.

[607] And so he trusted me to, not always, but usually enough to where he would let me wash him and stuff.

[608] Yeah.

[609] But he would do, he would get up.

[610] happens a lot to men, I guess women as well, but especially men.

[611] When they lose that inhibition, they get really kind of horny and grabby, right?

[612] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[613] He was famous for it.

[614] He would get up.

[615] One night he got into the bed of some ladies who had even worse to mention than him.

[616] He got in there, and he was.

[617] It never ends for women.

[618] It just never ends.

[619] And he was going for it.

[620] There's no finish line.

[621] You think I end up in a nursing known?

[622] No one's going to want anything to do with me. And he was all over her, and it was, you know, noisy.

[623] And so a nurse comes in, and she was probably 23, 24, young, you know, strong.

[624] She came in and she tried to get him out.

[625] She grabbed his arm.

[626] And even though he was literally a skeleton at that point, he was so thin.

[627] He just did this move on her.

[628] He grabbed her arm and he went like that, and he broke her arm.

[629] Oh, my God.

[630] This tough young woman.

[631] And I wasn't there at that moment, but I was here right after.

[632] And then when I saw her again, she came back to work with a cast on.

[633] And I said, I'm so sorry that she goes, it happens.

[634] I shouldn't have reached so suddenly.

[635] I mean, not everybody would say that.

[636] But she was saying it was on her because she startled him, like you would a dog or something.

[637] That's kind of her.

[638] Just go in slow.

[639] Very kind of her.

[640] But he was like that.

[641] He was completely nuts.

[642] My dad was a difficult character, fun, and could be.

[643] humorous and a good storyteller but he had a it was not always easy right and he mercurial we'd call him in the 50s yeah yeah and he and he could be domineering and stuff but when he got well into dementia he became very gentle he was like a child and he did a weird thing too even though he'd lived since the 1950s in the united states mostly argentina and then the united states had not lived in denmark anymore and he started speaking danish only right and not just danish but danish Danish from when he was a kid.

[644] So weird, old Danish, like accent and vocabulary, just like me when I went to Argentina, right?

[645] Yeah.

[646] But he was like a kid.

[647] And it's kind of a crapshoot.

[648] You don't know who they're going to remember or not or how they're going to remember them.

[649] And he would talk to me and he clearly thought I was his dad sometimes.

[650] The thing is that if you're open to it and you're not terrified and you just give up trying to make them be something, which we all need to do anyway in life.

[651] let people be who they are, try to figure them out rather than before you start thinking how they should be.

[652] And I would learn all kinds of things that I would have never learned.

[653] There was a period where he was talking to me. He sounded like a little kid.

[654] And it's like, I didn't, I didn't do it.

[655] I didn't let the pigs out.

[656] And I'm like, what the hell is he talking about?

[657] He kept going on about this.

[658] And I finally called his sister, my aunt in Denmark.

[659] I said, he's talking about, he sounds like he's about 10, 11 maybe.

[660] Did he let some pigs out?

[661] What happens?

[662] He goes, oh, yeah.

[663] Yeah, I was right at the beginning of the war, you know, things were tight as far as, you know, rationing with food and all that.

[664] And so the garden, the vegetable garden is really important.

[665] And he was alone one day on the farm and he forgot to close the door to the barn.

[666] Pig got out, pig died and destroyed the garden in minutes.

[667] Oh, boy.

[668] But he never copped to it.

[669] And this is something that had happened 74 years earlier.

[670] And then one day he goes, I did do it.

[671] I did.

[672] You know, he admitted this to me. Oh, my God.

[673] He unburdened himself.

[674] And I was his dad.

[675] And I said, it's okay.

[676] We're fine.

[677] Look, you're fine.

[678] I'm fine.

[679] We had something to eat.

[680] We just had dinner.

[681] The pigs didn't get it all.

[682] We're good.

[683] But it was like, if you're open to it and you're not just like, oh, this is weird.

[684] It's almost like a priest.

[685] You could absolve someone of this guilt.

[686] But you can also learn things that you'll never learn about your family.

[687] I would have never known that story.

[688] If that hadn't happened.

[689] Well, I think of the stuff I'd tell my brother and not my kids.

[690] Yeah, like if my daughter, if I think my daughter's my brother at some point, she's going to hear some new shit.

[691] No, my mom told me all kinds of stuff.

[692] There was another time where my dad was talking about, we can't leave the old people out in the snow in Danish, right?

[693] We can't.

[694] The old people are waiting by the station.

[695] I'm like, what station?

[696] He goes, you know, the name of this town.

[697] And I was like, so I call my aunt again.

[698] I said, what the hell is it?

[699] What's the deal with this year?

[700] no station in that town she goes yes but there was one until early 50s or i don't know there was a train a local train that used to go through there and uh that was probably because we had visitors from the this island where you know my grandparents came from and they were coming to visit and so they'd taken two trains and they were waiting to be picked up at the beginning of the war they were you know gasoline rationing so they would have gone horse and cart to pick them up wagon And so now I knew what he was talking about, that these people were waiting at the station in a snowstorm.

[701] He brought it up again the next night.

[702] I said, I'll go get him.

[703] Okay.

[704] So I went out to the kitchen.

[705] I made myself, you know, a cup of coffee or something, and then I waited a few minutes.

[706] And then I went back in thinking, he's either going to forgot it, which could happen, or he'll bring it up again.

[707] And he's so I walk in and he goes, well, what happened?

[708] And I said, even though I'd been gone two minutes, there's no way I could have gone to the station with him.

[709] So I said, I picked them up.

[710] It's a long trip.

[711] They were tired, but they're fine.

[712] They had a couple sandwiches and some soup.

[713] They said they were really tired and they were going to bed and that they would see you for breakfast.

[714] And he said, excellent.

[715] Thank you.

[716] So, you know, you could, but I learned a story about him and we had some fun.

[717] And just because for me, that's not real.

[718] Whereas it is for him, who am I to say?

[719] If we're saying that memory is subjective anyway, Why is the present that a person with dementia completely believes in and feels profoundly?

[720] Why is that any less legitimate than my view of the present?

[721] Yeah.

[722] Yeah, it's wild.

[723] Well, thank you for giving so much of our time.

[724] I got to say two more things.

[725] One, I fucking love Captain Fantastic.

[726] I'm modeling my own parenting after Captain Fantastic.

[727] For better or worse, we're going to find out.

[728] But the level of honesty, I was like, yeah, that's exactly what I like to do.

[729] like here's what it is you know very good writer -director matt ross i can't wait till he makes another movie he did a great job with that oh it was it was so spectacular i just loved it and now my very last question and it's an actor -to -actor question so the most famous thing you've ever been in your life i'm sure is the naked fight scene in the bathhouse which i'm sure you've talked about a million times i hate to bring it up again but i watched that going huh okay so let's say i had been cast instead of him and we're going to do that this.

[730] So I'm going to make up my mind like, we're doing this and I'm going to go all the way.

[731] But high probability of failure in that scene in a way.

[732] I mean, it's a big swing.

[733] And it's unbelievably.

[734] It's so memorable.

[735] You feel so vulnerable in that fight.

[736] Like, oh, this would be the worst place and the worst situation ever to have to fist fight.

[737] And I just wonder, your faith in Kronenberg just has to be like, yeah, I trust him.

[738] This is the right scene.

[739] I just want to wondered if was it any harder to commit to that one than other scenes or you were like no we're fucking doing this no i mean i remember you know we worked out the choreography well ahead of time because we had to i mean it was like you would with any stunt scene when it was written it just said they had this fight in a bath house and so when we were we showed him the choreography that we worked up you know it was a week or two before and and i said you know i was thinking about the scene i mean practically speaking i can be sitting there like everybody else you know with a towel on but that towel is not going to realistically stay on in this fight.

[740] So why not just not even try to do that?

[741] And he goes, it makes sense.

[742] I mean, that's just the way when it falls off, whatever.

[743] If you do this in continuity, that's where it falls off.

[744] And, you know, so it was more just practical concerns about it.

[745] And, yeah, I would probably do things with him or even stories that are strange, you know, that I might not trust another director with.

[746] That scene was tricky to orchestrate and perform, and there was also the practical thing.

[747] Once we'd done several takes, he got all these masters, basically.

[748] Then he said, we do have to do a couple pickup shots and close shots and some details tomorrow, so we'll have to repeat some of it.

[749] And then the next day I was so bruised that it took them longer to cover the bruises than it did to put all those tattoos on, actually.

[750] But those were just logistical things.

[751] I wasn't really freaked out about or concerned about it going in.

[752] I mean, because I, maybe like you say, because I trusted him, but it just seemed to make sense that this would have to be done that way.

[753] Yeah, I just think, I don't know how to articulate it, but the odds are you get a couple naked men fighting.

[754] It could just go wrong so easily.

[755] It could be laughable.

[756] You could be like, what the fuck am I watching?

[757] That's what I mean by the probability of failure.

[758] It was a very fine margin that that scene was pulled up as excellently as it was.

[759] I mean, I think David was committed and I was committed.

[760] To me, it was like fighting for my life.

[761] That's what it was about.

[762] No, it was awesome.

[763] It's the most memorable fight scene ever.

[764] It's incredible.

[765] I hope you get a chance to work with him someday.

[766] He's a fun person to be around.

[767] He's very smart and he's got a great sense of humor.

[768] And he's a really good director.

[769] I mean, he's a kind of director who will leave you alone.

[770] He trusts the people he casts and gives them room.

[771] That's nice.

[772] Feedback from everybody.

[773] Yeah.

[774] I hope you get to meet him.

[775] Well, listen, I've loved talking to you.

[776] Like ones.

[777] I had a hunch I would never bump into you at a Hollywood event, so I'm glad this happened.

[778] You never know.

[779] Small world.

[780] That's true.

[781] You don't know.

[782] All right, well, great luck with falling.

[783] It comes out February 5th on VOD Everywhere.

[784] Yes.

[785] So everyone should check that out.

[786] I'm excited for you.

[787] Lance Henriksen, a performance that will long live in memory.

[788] I guarantee you won't regret seeing him.

[789] Whether he horrifies you or not, it's an amazing acting job.

[790] See the for Lance, if nothing else.

[791] Well, I can see it for both of you.

[792] I don't have to pair.

[793] Fair enough.

[794] Anyways, nice to meet both you guys.

[795] Yeah, take care of you go.

[796] Thanks, thank you.

[797] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[798] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[799] We have a lot of housekeeping.

[800] Oh.

[801] Tons.

[802] Two big things.

[803] All right.

[804] We watched separately two big pieces of media this week.

[805] Brittany Spears documentary framing Britney Spears.

[806] Which is a New York Times documentary.

[807] So it's like it's really tastefully done.

[808] I think when I maybe heard of it at first, I assumed it would be salacious.

[809] I don't even know what I thought.

[810] I just generally if they make things about her, I'm nervous.

[811] It's an incredible documentary.

[812] It's on Hulu.

[813] Everyone should watch it.

[814] Yes.

[815] It's heartbreaking.

[816] It is heartbreaking.

[817] and it is so illuminating the fog in which we all lived in.

[818] Me, having lived through the whole thing with today's set of glasses was just flabbergasted at the level of misogyny that was just commonplace in every interview.

[819] People asking her about her boobs.

[820] People are asking her if she's a virgin.

[821] Oh, she has to walk this tightrope of being polite.

[822] And everyone talking about the way she dresses and how bad that is.

[823] for girls like a wife of like a senator saying she would shoot her if she could and you know even back rip love ed mcmann but even back to her appearance on star search when she's like an eight -year -old little girl and he goes do you have a boyfriend and she goes no he goes why she goes boys are mean she's so spunky and fun yeah she is and he goes what about me i'm not mean can i be your boyfriend which was so innocuous back then when i watched stuff like that i didn't even think about it but now I'm looking at this eight -year -old little girl having to explain to a grandpa why they shouldn't be boyfriend girlfriend.

[824] It was so.

[825] And then she just says, it depends.

[826] Yeah.

[827] It's so sad.

[828] Like, oh, my God.

[829] And you said it the best.

[830] You just, you watch this person get chiseled.

[831] Yeah.

[832] Like from the jump, just chiseled, chiseled, chisle, chisel, chisel, chisel, chisel.

[833] Until she's nothing.

[834] Yeah.

[835] It is so worth watching.

[836] I think it's a really good cautionary tale.

[837] Me and you had a little bit of this discussion.

[838] You know, this idea that everyone has to walk on eggshells and that there's, you could get canceled at any moment for something you say, that's wrong.

[839] Like, that's scary, and I don't like that.

[840] But it is the pendulum swing from that.

[841] Yeah.

[842] Yeah.

[843] And we're not to the middle yet, but I'm glad the pendulum has swung in a way that is going to prevent.

[844] If someone said what Ed McMahon says, said to a little girl on TV now, he'd get skewered.

[845] Yeah, there'd be blowback.

[846] Yeah, and I'm happy about that.

[847] I'm happy that people are dissecting.

[848] Well, even to, like, this has happened in a few documentaries we've watched recently where they go back to late -night talk show monologues.

[849] Yeah.

[850] And, man, they never age that well.

[851] And there was one where the talk show host was saying, like, you know, guys always want to know, like, who should they pick?

[852] Should they pick the nice girl that's a good mother?

[853] or should they pick the little slut or something?

[854] And it was, said slut, and it's like, oh, my, oh, my God.

[855] Yeah.

[856] And again, I would watch that stuff in that era.

[857] And that didn't even occur to me that that was insane.

[858] I know.

[859] And that, I guess that's what, like, we have progressed.

[860] And I think part of the reason we progress is because people have been put in a corner or two a little bit.

[861] And I am, I'm happy about that because this stuff is just so unacceptable.

[862] And it's not just men.

[863] It was women.

[864] It was Diane Sawyer who, I mean, is a legend and amazing.

[865] But everyone just lived in that world.

[866] It was society.

[867] That's why I always kind of say, like, you got to look at the systems.

[868] The little monkeys involved in the systems can only be so responsible.

[869] It's like the whole, the water everyone's swimming in is the problem.

[870] Oh, it's gut punchy so much of the stuff.

[871] And then also when Brittany famously attacked that car with the umbrella, I was thinking how different it would be if a if it had been me that would have happened years before yeah i would have snapped like i would have felt from my childhood trauma i would have felt like i'm about to be molested even though i'm not going to be molested i would have that same feeling of powerlessness and i will not let someone do this to me and i would have snapped years before that i would have punch people, and probably the narrative would not have been, I went crazy.

[872] It would have been he fought back.

[873] Yeah, exactly.

[874] It wouldn't be that I was weak and snapped and was hysterical.

[875] It would have been, I fought back.

[876] Oh, it's so depressing.

[877] It is.

[878] And, you know, the whole free Britney movement is interesting.

[879] We don't know the details, and I don't know whether she needs a conservatory or not.

[880] Whether she needs one or not, I do think it is another layer of misogyny because there are, like, you know, there are plenty of male actors who are crazy.

[881] Yeah, like Martin Sheen didn't take charge of Charlie Sheen during the whole meltdown.

[882] And like, it's because she's a woman and she was a girl.

[883] And we think that women and girls can't handle themselves when they're in the middle of an emotional situation.

[884] It's just the layers.

[885] Yeah, I didn't leave with conviction about whether she should or shouldn't be a part of a conservatorship.

[886] Conservatory ship.

[887] What was it?

[888] Conservateur.

[889] It's like a legal conservator.

[890] Yeah.

[891] I didn't leave with that because as many of the lawyers said, like, you don't know what you don't know.

[892] I don't know if she's tried to kill herself eight times and her life is in danger without that.

[893] We don't know the details.

[894] But it's also like chicken or the egg.

[895] Like let's say that's even true.

[896] Let's she has had suicide attempts.

[897] Is it because she's crazy or is it because this made her crazy?

[898] Right.

[899] Her entrapment, you know?

[900] Yeah.

[901] But I guess the only reason I brought that up is I don't really have a conclusion because I don't know nearly enough to make a statement like that.

[902] But the documentary is so illuminating outside of that question.

[903] Yeah.

[904] And what we accept with this whole paparazzi thing, like the fact that we could all fall in love with someone's talent, in light and then say and yeah we should live in a society where 350 people should mob that person physically every time there's footage of like those paparazzi getting in like crazy fist fights right next to her where she almost got hit and the notion that we're like we accept that is so crazy to me i know i'm predisposed to hate that but i even know that before i had any experience with it, I thought it was grotesque.

[905] Yeah.

[906] And if you just are unaware, I do think this is an enlightening movie to watch or doc to watch because literally I had to put my hand over my eyes because I truly was like, I'm at risk of having a seizure if I stare at this because of the flashing.

[907] Yeah.

[908] And that's me watching a movie.

[909] That's her life.

[910] I could not.

[911] It's so sickening.

[912] I don't think it's too far to go to say it's an assault.

[913] Like, they were publicly assaulting her, and we were all like, oh, freedom of the press.

[914] Bullshit.

[915] Yeah, I know.

[916] That wears so fucking thin to me, freedom of the press on that.

[917] And there's a paparazzi in the doc who is interviewed.

[918] And I mean, I find that so interesting, too.

[919] Also, simulation, Bader Meinhontov, frequency illusion, ding, ding, ding.

[920] Because we had just talked about this recently.

[921] We were talking about punked and how.

[922] Oh, sure.

[923] And then.

[924] Where's the line?

[925] Where's the line?

[926] Yeah.

[927] And this guy is on there and you can you can see that his brain is preventing him from seeing the reality, which is that he was a part of something that ruined a human.

[928] And he has some awareness of it.

[929] Like the way he's participating in it.

[930] Yeah.

[931] There's a certain level of responsibility he can accept before I think it would shatter his self image of himself.

[932] Yes, exactly.

[933] He comes in and out because he's like, well, first he says, like, I don't think when you're in it, you really can understand what they're going through.

[934] He says that.

[935] But then he basically said it was a mutual.

[936] Oh, yeah, this is the fucking thing I hate the most about Popper's Jesus.

[937] They need us and we need that.

[938] That's what he said.

[939] That is not true.

[940] Brittany Spears is a fucking star from her singing and dancing, not from you following her.

[941] What a bogus.

[942] You also see on the video, like we see a lot of clips of her being like, like, can you leave me alone?

[943] Can you leave me alone?

[944] And then we cut to the interview and he says, she never told us to leave her alone.

[945] And the interviewer says, what about when she said, leave me alone?

[946] And he said, well, she just met for that day.

[947] Right.

[948] Not forever.

[949] Right.

[950] And he, like, his brain has to think that.

[951] Yeah.

[952] It was heartbreaking and I wanted to be friends with her.

[953] I know.

[954] And I started to get really panicked by the end because they were basically saying like, You kind of can't get to her because of this situation she's in where she has these legal guardians.

[955] They kind of vet everything.

[956] And I was like, oh, my God, like, she can't even tell her story.

[957] This is, like, other country shit.

[958] This is not something we should allow in the United States.

[959] It's a very good documentary.

[960] I would highly reckon.

[961] I mean, it's not even that it's a good documentary.

[962] I think it should be sort of required watching for, like, empathy and to see that side of this industry and what we do to people and women.

[963] It's the same as the tiger thing, too.

[964] All these things fall into this narrative where we love to build someone up and then we can't wait for them to crash.

[965] And it's so sick that we're like that.

[966] It is.

[967] It is.

[968] It is.

[969] Um, it's like there's some part of us that's like no one deserves that much adulation.

[970] So now I wanted to swing the other way and them to get humbled.

[971] There's something interesting.

[972] So I think there's some programming in our brain that wants us to regulate who's getting too much power.

[973] Yeah.

[974] Yeah.

[975] I think so.

[976] And I think also we're so hardwired to want stories so that we can make sense of things.

[977] So like, yeah, this is the.

[978] teen idol story and oh this is the crazy woman story and oh that like we just need all these boxes and it's so hard to see all the facets of what's going on and i also think our brains want so badly to be looking up to someone yeah we both desire we need a model an alpha uh -huh but then our all our brains check themselves, I shouldn't care this much about them.

[979] And so, yeah, it swings in the other direction.

[980] We can't just have any, like, moderate thoughts.

[981] I think we desire a leader.

[982] Like, we desire someone that we all trust to defer to.

[983] Yeah.

[984] But we do not want that entity to have too much control.

[985] So it's like this balancing act.

[986] But we do until we don't.

[987] Exactly.

[988] You know, as we get into gene editing and CRISPR and all this stuff, I wonder if they'll start experimenting.

[989] I don't know how you experiment on people, but kind of removing some of the stuff.

[990] that ales us so much because we live so differently than we were designed to live.

[991] So the reward center for eating.

[992] Like, will they, well, they choose to augment that?

[993] So we don't have the desire to overconsume at all times.

[994] Will they fix this status obsession in us because we're a social climate?

[995] Yeah, but it benefits people too.

[996] Like, it's going to, it's going to change everything if that were to happen and probably a lot of bad ways.

[997] But we do have all this hard wiring that's not serving us anymore.

[998] Like the fact that we did have to be on high alert all the time when we have this whole nervous system designed to dump cortisol and adrenaline so you can run from a lion well no one has to run from a lion anymore and so we're carrying all that chemistry around and people with anxiety is like some of it's there isn't a big threat so you're looking for a threat but there are threats there are threats but not like early man dealt with yeah i mean i think if you're walking down a dark alley and you're a woman like that you need that lion quality fear of a lion quality to to be spiked.

[999] I agree, but like, 0 .0001 % of your life will be walking down a dark alley.

[1000] And then you're left with the rest of your life where you're just in your house, all that chemistry is working out these fears that aren't really plausible fears.

[1001] But I don't think you could just cut out like fear of lion attacks.

[1002] Like you'd be cutting out fear and you can't.

[1003] I guess what I'm saying is will they be able to dial it to give you an appropriate amount of fear for living on in this society so only point you know zero zero zero zero one percent are going to get attacked and killed by another human being now 30 percent of people are going to die of heart disease they're not too afraid of that right so none of it's actually related to the real threats whereas it used to be yeah and so i wonder if they could dial it maybe i don't know yeah if you live in a in a context where you have a 50 percent chance of getting killed by a lion you probably should be on high alert all day long.

[1004] Right.

[1005] But if you live in Beverly Hills in a house and you only go to Whole Foods, you probably don't need to be carrying that level of adrenaline around with you.

[1006] Right.

[1007] But it's just the same body.

[1008] Yeah.

[1009] But the Brittany thing kind of connects to the other piece of media that we consumed this week, that I could not recommend more.

[1010] In and of itself, a magic show that's on Hulu.

[1011] It was a stage show that ran for like 534 days or something in New York, and then they filmed it.

[1012] Yes, thank God.

[1013] They did a great job filming it, by the way.

[1014] They did.

[1015] They did.

[1016] And that is hard to do, especially a magic show.

[1017] It is beautiful.

[1018] It is not your average magic show.

[1019] Like, it's a storytelling show.

[1020] It's an identity exploration.

[1021] It is.

[1022] It is.

[1023] And, yeah, identity is such a huge theme in it.

[1024] And what we think of ourselves, what other people.

[1025] think of us, what other people choose to not think about us.

[1026] And it tied to the Britney thing, for me, I felt like, everyone just sees her as this one thing.

[1027] And they refuse to look at the whole picture.

[1028] Yeah, an archetype.

[1029] Yeah.

[1030] It's incredible.

[1031] It is incredible, the show.

[1032] The thing I was most excited about watching it was thinking how much you are going to like it.

[1033] Oh, my God.

[1034] I mean, it was just a confluence of all the things I like.

[1035] I mean, obviously, I love magic.

[1036] And I love the topics he was exploring and also just the way it was at.

[1037] I mean, I was crying from like five minutes in.

[1038] I was just crying the whole time.

[1039] Magic makes me scared and happy and excited and scared.

[1040] Just so much wonder.

[1041] I would give anything to feel about magic the way you do.

[1042] It would be really fun.

[1043] It's funny.

[1044] I was talking about it with Kristen afterwards because she loved it so much as well.

[1045] and I said us people are who we are like you can aspire to get rid of some of your character defects blah blah but we also there are types of people and I am a type of person where and again because of my history there is a manipulation it's not true and it results in an emotion and that to me is just a trigger you don't see that magic is a manipulation it is a tricking your senses it's deception And that's what's cool about it.

[1046] And when it's just to go like, oh, cool, that thing disappeared.

[1047] I didn't think that could disappear.

[1048] I don't really have any reaction to it.

[1049] But when it's that that then elicits emotions, it like triggers all this stuff in me. But you could choose to see it as all of these things that I'm walking around in the world thinking are real and right and exact.

[1050] Maybe they're not.

[1051] And that's exciting.

[1052] that doesn't have to be manipulation.

[1053] That doesn't have to be scary.

[1054] I mean, that's like shrooms.

[1055] When you take shrooms and you're walking around and you're like, oh, my God, there is a version of the world that's this.

[1056] That's tricking your brain.

[1057] That's making chemicals release that don't normally release.

[1058] And it resulted in a lot of emotion for me. So to me, it's the same thing.

[1059] It's just like, oh, my God, we're so obsessed with the, tangible world in the way we know it and there are versions of this world that are magical and i love that it's how you i think it's a choice in how you choose to see it i totally agree yeah for me there isn't magic so everything that happened was a trick that he performed beautifully the guy's so talented but they were all tricks none of it was real and on shrooms it's the same reality and you are interpreting it differently.

[1060] You're in charge of the manipulation, not another human being.

[1061] Well, I was not in charge.

[1062] You were.

[1063] Your brain was...

[1064] My brain was in charge, but I myself was not.

[1065] I couldn't stop it if I wanted to stop it.

[1066] I couldn't do anything like that.

[1067] Oh, I'm not arguing that you had control.

[1068] What I'm saying is it was your own brain that was seeing these other layers that do exist.

[1069] Like, you didn't see anything.

[1070] what you saw is how light enters your brain and if it enters your brain in one state it assembles a bush in this way but if your brain is accessing another part of itself it assembles it this way and you can't say which one's real well people have hallucinations on these things that's not real I'm not saying it well that's the same thing that's an illusion that's something your brain is creating in that moment that's not existing in the in your sober moment it's not existing to a person next to me who even if that person is on shrooms is probably not existing like everyone's reality i guess i like the fact that it's questioning it's questioning reality uh -huh yeah yeah although it's really cool it's so beautiful i think the message is so beautiful Oh, yeah, it's beautiful.

[1071] Can you see what I'm saying about?

[1072] Everyone starts crying, and they're crying because of a trick he performed.

[1073] And so that's the part that's triggering for me. But I don't see it like that.

[1074] I see that you see that as a trick.

[1075] Everyone's crying because they've bought into a trick.

[1076] But they can choose, and they are, to not feel like they're being tricked.

[1077] They can choose to feel like they're being seen.

[1078] Right.

[1079] And that's a beautiful thing.

[1080] There is a reality that they're not being seen.

[1081] Do you think they're happier having felt tricked or having felt seen?

[1082] Right.

[1083] So this is all I'm saying.

[1084] This is why there's so many different people in the world.

[1085] And some people like you, which I'm envious of, can forget that part and enjoy the emotional part of it, which is beautiful.

[1086] And then for people like me who were manipulated so often to give me an emotion that was.

[1087] bullshit.

[1088] It was a trick.

[1089] I will always be on guard against that.

[1090] But that's kind of the whole point of this whole thing is like you have this identity about yourself.

[1091] It's, it is steadfast and there's nothing that can change it and it's you.

[1092] But you have choices.

[1093] You can decide whether that's the truth about you moving forward.

[1094] I mean, of course.

[1095] I disagree.

[1096] I disagree.

[1097] Okay.

[1098] That's like you saying, I get telling you, you can decide you didn't feel like you were the only brown person in your friendship group.

[1099] You can't decide that.

[1100] You told me during.

[1101] You said, you have a choice in how you choose to feel this experience.

[1102] And I felt horrible.

[1103] And I felt so fearful and so scared and so out of control.

[1104] And when you said that, I was like, that's exactly right.

[1105] I can choose in this moment to override some of that wiring.

[1106] Uh -huh.

[1107] Yeah, the fear.

[1108] And I did.

[1109] Yeah.

[1110] And it was awesome.

[1111] We have that ability.

[1112] I'm not saying it's easy.

[1113] Here's the thing I'm bumping up against that's making me emotional in this argument is I see you.

[1114] I see how much you enjoy it and I see why.

[1115] Yeah.

[1116] And I'm happy for you.

[1117] And the way I'm experiencing it is true to me and you're trying to tell me that that's my choice in that I should be doing it differently.

[1118] I'm not saying you should be.

[1119] I'm saying if you're envious, that means.

[1120] means you would want it to be different.

[1121] And if you want it to be different, I'm telling you it can be.

[1122] If you're saying I'm totally content with that, then great.

[1123] Then you can be totally content with that.

[1124] You're saying you wish you can see it like me. Yeah, I would love to experience the emotion.

[1125] But unfortunately, because of my history, I can't.

[1126] I am on high alert for people that are lying to elicit an emotion out of me. And that is who I am.

[1127] Yeah.

[1128] Yeah.

[1129] I'm not going to change that.

[1130] Just like you hate the idea of anyone talking behind your back, more so.

[1131] than other people do, and it's because you had great reason to wonder if when you left your five white girlfriends that they talked about you being brown.

[1132] That was a real legitimate thing to wonder.

[1133] Right.

[1134] I think maybe that was subconscious.

[1135] Yeah, but yes, I'm wiring in that way.

[1136] Yes.

[1137] Yeah.

[1138] And so I don't think you can choose to not have that feeling about someone talking about you.

[1139] Absolutely.

[1140] I cannot choose that.

[1141] But I can have the feeling and then make a choice after that.

[1142] Does it mean that people don't like me?

[1143] Does it mean this?

[1144] Does it?

[1145] Am I getting bamboozled?

[1146] Like, I can have the feeling and then I can choose what to do with it.

[1147] I can choose to say, that's old wiring.

[1148] I don't need it.

[1149] I think we can sum this up really easily, which is we both recognize that the people at the end who are having this beautiful emotion is beautiful.

[1150] is beautiful.

[1151] Yeah.

[1152] And you don't mind how they got there, and I mind how they got there.

[1153] Right.

[1154] I wish it would have been something that was real.

[1155] Because I think you can get people to feel that way with the truth.

[1156] But that's not a magic show.

[1157] Yeah, sure.

[1158] It's so clear that it's so much of my baggage, because I don't mind when people watch a movie and they feel like that, and they're crying at the end and they feel seen.

[1159] because the movie's clear about the fact that it's fake.

[1160] Like this is a story, this is a narrative.

[1161] And if you get this feeling out of it, it's great because I just feel like you were up front.

[1162] You're not presenting it as a documentary.

[1163] And that just shows how much of it's my baggage about, I mean, what's the difference between that magic show and a movie?

[1164] There's none.

[1165] And it's a magic show.

[1166] Yeah.

[1167] It's not like your dad is telling you that has, like, made a whole trick to it.

[1168] It's a magic show.

[1169] You are walking and knowing, like, you want to be.

[1170] There's, there, yeah, you're, you're buying into that experience.

[1171] Yeah.

[1172] So you're not getting tricked.

[1173] You know what you're doing when you go in there.

[1174] Yeah, like, I just think the simplest way to say this is, it doesn't matter you at all that how they got to that beautiful emotion was through this illusion.

[1175] And for me, it makes me think that emotion isn't real because it was an illusion.

[1176] Yeah.

[1177] Yeah.

[1178] Yeah.

[1179] I think we just disagree.

[1180] on, I think illusions can become your reality.

[1181] Anyway, I think it's - It's fucking awesome, though.

[1182] Let me just say that.

[1183] And I loved how much you and Kristen loved it and were emotional and felt totally connected.

[1184] And I think that's awesome.

[1185] It was, I would highly, also on Hulu.

[1186] Lots of things to watch on Hulu.

[1187] And you know what?

[1188] Now that I saw his name, I'm almost positive.

[1189] This is the person years ago.

[1190] we interviewed Ira in New York, I saw an amazing magic show there.

[1191] We were talking to Ira, and we were like, oh, we're going to this magic show.

[1192] Oh, I saw the best magic show last night.

[1193] And he goes, yeah, he's fine, but you should really see.

[1194] And I'm pretty sure it was this.

[1195] It had to have been that.

[1196] Yeah.

[1197] And I'm so upset I didn't get to see that in person.

[1198] You know what I loved about it is I was like, oh, yes, the thing that Chappelle has done so successfully is happening in magic now which is so cool like like talk about something yes be funny but talk about something for real and and do magic but but tackle something exactly yeah I love that same yeah speaking of I think Chappelle has something new out today oh my goodness I saw something on the Instagram but I didn't get to look at it yet oh my gosh your birthday buddy oh oh wait hold on ding ding ding oh Jesus triple ding so many ding ding ding ding because In the magic show, Bill Gates is there.

[1199] Oh, my God.

[1200] I wanted to just cry even harder.

[1201] I love him so much.

[1202] We are doing a book talk.

[1203] We're moderating a talk about his new book.

[1204] We're so flattered.

[1205] Oh, my God.

[1206] Our names are on this thing.

[1207] That's absurd.

[1208] Yeah.

[1209] That's exciting.

[1210] Oh, I wouldn't want another update.

[1211] You know, the last time this happened where we were, talking about another show and you said it's like when people don't like the food you're eating and they won't shut up about it many people responded there's a term for that called don't yuck my yum oh i like that yeah don't yuck my yum so yeah so i'm sorry if i'm yucking your yum when i share my opinions about i think it's beautiful that you no you're not yucking my yum at all.

[1212] Okay, good.

[1213] Okay.

[1214] So, Vigo.

[1215] In the light 70s, an international phone call would be like 80 bucks.

[1216] So I saw an ad for AT &T and an old national geographic from the early 60s announcing direct long -distance dialing to several countries.

[1217] I believe calls to the UK were around $3 per minute.

[1218] Oh my gosh.

[1219] For the first three minutes.

[1220] France and Germany were a bit more maybe 360 per minute.

[1221] Wow.

[1222] Yeah.

[1223] Yeah.

[1224] I remember getting busted All the time in junior high, I'd, like, meet these girls on, I went to Trevor City once, and I met this cute girl, and then I talked to her on the phone, and I would rack up these bills that were outrageous, and I'd get totally busted.

[1225] And then, yeah, a girl Jenny Lesnowitz, I'd tell you about the girl I met in England.

[1226] Just a landline back then, so we couldn't talk.

[1227] We had to write letters.

[1228] It was too expensive.

[1229] That's sweet, though.

[1230] Pen pal's, pen paling is fun.

[1231] Oh, yeah.

[1232] Because you were taking too long to write your letter?

[1233] The rugby player, remember?

[1234] Oh, yeah.

[1235] And I wrestled them and he won.

[1236] Oh, my God.

[1237] Ding, ding, ding.

[1238] What?

[1239] Rugby?

[1240] Yes.

[1241] We talk a lot about rugby in this episode.

[1242] Oh, yeah.

[1243] And one of my facts is, what are they saying in the Haka?

[1244] Hold on a second.

[1245] Jenny Hazleton.

[1246] I know another Jenny Loznoissewitz.

[1247] Not Jenny Losewitt.

[1248] Jenny Hazleton, I just want to clear that.

[1249] Okay.

[1250] The Haka, they say different stuff.

[1251] They say different stuff.

[1252] But one of them I found says, I die, I die, I live, I live.

[1253] I die, I die, I live, I live.

[1254] This is the hairy man who fetched the sun and caused it to shine again.

[1255] One upward step, another upward step.

[1256] Ooh.

[1257] And upward step, another, the sun shines.

[1258] Oh, wow.

[1259] Yeah, so they say different stuff, but that was one of them.

[1260] This must be all blacks, because it says all blacks, all blacks, let me become one with the land.

[1261] This is our land that rumbles.

[1262] It's my time.

[1263] It's my moment.

[1264] this defines us as the all blacks it's my time it's my moment our dominance our supremacy will triumph and will be properly revered placed on high silver fern all blacks silver fern all blacks yeah there's only a few teams that do the hawka oh really yeah yeah all blacks do it Samoa does it and Tonga does it I don't know if there's another one but maybe Fiji I don't know I don't know what the all the teams are but yeah okay okay the The goalie that got killed, the Columbia goalie, his name was Andre Escobar.

[1265] I think, I think Vigo even called his name.

[1266] By name.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] He was killed after the aftermath of the 1994 FIFA World Cup, reportedly as retaliation for having scored an own goal, which contributed to the team's elimination from the tournament.

[1269] Mm. Oh, you want to watch the Hawker?

[1270] Columbia.

[1271] Oh, sure.

[1272] Isn't that awesome?

[1273] Awesome.

[1274] It's cool.

[1275] The first couple times I saw, I think I said that in the interview when I was in New Zealand starting to watch these games.

[1276] First I was like, this is corny.

[1277] And then about halfway through, I'm like, oh, I'd be terrified.

[1278] The unity of the in ferocity.

[1279] Yeah.

[1280] I think you also like it because you like group dance.

[1281] You like group things.

[1282] I do.

[1283] I love group dancing.

[1284] Synchronized dancing.

[1285] Yeah, you love that.

[1286] I really do.

[1287] It reminded me of, honestly, it was like, oh, cheerleading.

[1288] Oh, sure.

[1289] It just looked like a formation to me. But I really like that the other team was holding hands and holding you.

[1290] each other's best.

[1291] Yeah.

[1292] Mostly it's that, right?

[1293] So 99 % of the teams they play just have to sit there while they intimidate them.

[1294] But when they play Tonga or Samoa, both teams are doing it.

[1295] Yeah, that's cool.

[1296] Very cool.

[1297] I thought all the stuff that Vigo said about dementia was really interesting.

[1298] Super fascinating.

[1299] And stuff I hadn't thought about.

[1300] And what I really liked, kind of a ding, ding, ding.

[1301] Because what he was saying is, The person who has dementia is living in their own reality, it's not real.

[1302] Right.

[1303] But, but.

[1304] Why ruin it for them?

[1305] Don't need, yeah, or just like.

[1306] Well, that's why I'm saying, sorry I yucked your young.

[1307] No, I'm not saying that.

[1308] I'm saying, but it's real to them, so what's real?

[1309] Mm -hmm.

[1310] Like, that's the big question.

[1311] Everything is a perception anyway.

[1312] So if that's real to them, it's real.

[1313] Yeah, for sure.

[1314] Man, I really ding, dinged that.

[1315] You're really tight.

[1316] You tied everything into a beautiful little book.

[1317] To a rugby ball.

[1318] Yeah, an all black bow.

[1319] I tried again.

[1320] You went too far.

[1321] You went back to the well, as we say, in comedy.

[1322] Won too many times.

[1323] Okay, dokey.

[1324] That was it?

[1325] That was the facts.

[1326] That was the facts.

[1327] So it was mostly just a review of these two great pieces of content we consumed.

[1328] And I encourage everyone to see it.

[1329] Oh, the...

[1330] You can buy tickets for both.

[1331] In and of itself is also on Hulu.

[1332] Yeah.

[1333] Yeah.

[1334] And the Brittany one is too.

[1335] Yeah, they're both on Hulu.

[1336] Okay.

[1337] Good job, Hulu.

[1338] Love you.

[1339] Bye.

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