344 - Hypothetical Rearview Mirror

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hello.

[2] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[3] That's Georgia Hartstark.

[4] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[5] And it is football season, guys.

[6] Who is?

[7] We might be amazing.

[8] We switched to a sports fight.

[9] Or we just really got into football all of a sudden for no fucking reason.

[10] We're just like, you know what?

[11] Our interests have changed.

[12] Yep.

[13] We welcome ourselves into the hallowed halls.

[14] Yeah.

[15] Like, can we...

[16] Can we please have a different pastime?

[17] Yeah.

[18] Can people evolve and grow, please?

[19] Yeah.

[20] Yeah.

[21] And get really into football for no fucking reason.

[22] No matter the state, no matter the city.

[23] Oh, I don't even have a team.

[24] I just love watching it.

[25] I love all football sports.

[26] Mm -hmm.

[27] I don't do it for the food and the drinks.

[28] Uh -uh.

[29] I just do it for the love of football.

[30] And are you more of an AFC or an NFC?

[31] That's a great question.

[32] Karen.

[33] Yeah, the answer is yes, 100%.

[34] You know what I mean?

[35] Like, yeah, because I feel like the AFC is more real than the other, the second option of that.

[36] Extreme.

[37] And I like, I like my football extreme.

[38] Oh, yeah.

[39] Like, I want to see some heads cracking or whatever.

[40] Yeah.

[41] I prefer when the faster, when the one team is faster than the other and more accurate with their throwing and catching.

[42] Yeah.

[43] Yeah.

[44] Definitely.

[45] That's why I like it.

[46] I want to see two footballs on the field at once.

[47] Just that's like what I have in you.

[48] I want a flag on that play, every play.

[49] And I want to watch men and their intricate romantic dances that they add a little violence on just so no one's the wiser.

[50] And I just want to see lifelong traumatic brain injuries really play itself out right there for my own pleasure and entertainment.

[51] See, that's where we bring kind of the darkness back into what is.

[52] normally very light, airy, fun -time sports.

[53] Sure.

[54] But we're like, hey, there's potential crime on the field happening right now.

[55] That's what we do.

[56] You're not fast enough.

[57] What else besides football have you been getting yourself into lately?

[58] Just mostly football.

[59] I really wish I could remember like the last thing my dad told me about that I didn't care about about football, that I could really impress you with.

[60] No, the AFC, NFC thing that you just pulled out of nowhere.

[61] I was.

[62] Is that real?

[63] I think NFC is like not featured content or something, but AFC is real.

[64] Okay, well, color me impressed.

[65] Thanks.

[66] That was good.

[67] Let's see, what, did I tell you about when I did a slip and fall?

[68] No. Did we talk about that last show?

[69] Well, this will be, we're recording a little bit early.

[70] Yeah.

[71] So this is evergreen.

[72] It'll be so fascinating what my toenail looks like by the time this actually airs.

[73] So I, here's what I did.

[74] The other morning I was trying to have like a power morning.

[75] Sure.

[76] So I got up.

[77] I went swimming.

[78] I'm on it.

[79] And I'm on it morning.

[80] Right?

[81] And I'm like, go get him.

[82] A go get him football kind of morning.

[83] Right?

[84] What the coach would tell me. Go get it.

[85] Go get it in that pool for half an hour.

[86] Getting out of the pool realized there's like I had ordered because I ran out of coffee.

[87] So I was like, well, then I guess I get to order Starbucks delivered to my home.

[88] Yes, you too.

[89] It's a necessity.

[90] I need it, first of all, and then I want it.

[91] And you've seen me on the road.

[92] When I go to Starbucks, I will order like four to five things at a time.

[93] It's my favorite.

[94] This time I only ordered two, which was a big coffee and then my double -tall mocha that I like.

[95] One pump.

[96] It comes very quickly, like surprisingly quickly, where I'm like, oh, shoot.

[97] So I have to get out of the pool.

[98] And instead of standing there and taking my time to dry off, I kind of, I kind of I ran to the door to get my drink.

[99] And the second my foot hit that fucking tile inside my house.

[100] Oh, Karen.

[101] It was a slip and fall of such hilarious dramatic height.

[102] Like, it was like a herky where my leg went out up from under me. Oh, my God.

[103] And then the other, you know what it was like?

[104] It was, have you ever seen drag queens do death drops where they just fall to the ground?

[105] Yes.

[106] It was one of those with the slip, you know, a liquid.

[107] slip height.

[108] So my first, anyway, it didn't, nothing, the only damage that came out of it, I'm really goosing this for like attention and pity, and thank you for that, is, it hurt, of course, my, like, right haunch that I fell on, my butt and thigh.

[109] It was like, ow, that was like height.

[110] I went up and came back down.

[111] I've been there.

[112] My left leg did bend behind me a little bit.

[113] The problem, which that was actually fine.

[114] The problem was, is that the way I know a toenail, I know a toenail injury is coming and I'm just like holding my sweating breath.

[115] I apologize.

[116] I'm making it take too long.

[117] Essentially, the way my big toe hit the ground, the toenail.

[118] No, no. Okay, disengage.

[119] Go forward to three if you're a squeamish person.

[120] Yeah.

[121] And also, Georgia, do you not want to hear this?

[122] No, I want to, I like gross things.

[123] I would look at your toenail right now.

[124] I'm weird like that.

[125] You can.

[126] It basically bent my toenail in the bed.

[127] So it came up off the toenail bed a little bit, and then it turned to the left.

[128] I'm sweating.

[129] I'm sweating.

[130] It was so.

[131] Your toenail vogue turned to the left.

[132] This whole thing.

[133] My toenail held up a compact and acted out putting on powder at me as if to say that my toenail gave me shade through vogueing.

[134] And it hurt so bad that it was numb at first, one of those nightmare ones, where then it slowly comes in.

[135] Were you shaken up?

[136] When I have a big fall like that, it's like when you're suddenly like, how badly am I hurt?

[137] Yes.

[138] Did you still get your coffee?

[139] Oh, hell yes.

[140] I mean, I stayed in place for like five minutes to make sure.

[141] Yeah.

[142] Like, there was no spinal, you know, midlife serious injury of like, you know, you have to take Boniva for the rest of your life or whatever.

[143] Realize that the only thing.

[144] was my butt, my one side of my butt hurt, and then that toenail was like something bad happened and I can't look at it.

[145] No. Got up, got my coffee, collected myself, and then slowly looked down at it.

[146] And it was just like turned.

[147] It was just slightly, it was like, it got side -swiped.

[148] Yeah, it was like a jar.

[149] And pushed to the left.

[150] It was horrible.

[151] Are you okay?

[152] Oh, my God.

[153] Yes.

[154] Well, then, here's the thing.

[155] I wasn't going to go to the emergency room because everybody would go ahead of me all day.

[156] Yeah.

[157] And the next doctor's appointment was like for 10 days ahead.

[158] So then I was just like, well, I guess we'll just see what happens.

[159] Because I have a wonky toenail for a couple days.

[160] Because it might fall off.

[161] Oh, God.

[162] You know, it's weird is in the last hour, this is like the accident -prone show, because in the last hour, I've hit myself in the face area twice.

[163] With what?

[164] And I'm going to have a black eye, I think.

[165] Well, I was putting on a hair clip, like a chompy type hair clip.

[166] and I had coconut oil, like, everywhere.

[167] And it slipped right here as I was about to put it on my face and fucking swapped me right in the face.

[168] So now I'm going to have a big bruise.

[169] It, like, slipped out of my fingers as I was opening it as like a banana clip thing.

[170] And shot onto your cheekbone?

[171] Yeah.

[172] Luckily, it didn't hit my eye.

[173] And that hurt really bad, and I think it is going to bruise.

[174] And then I was plugging in my equipment here, and I, like, pulled a cord that has a metal thing at the end too quickly, and it came back around and just whipped me in my big white teeth.

[175] Like, just so flat, like right in my fucking teeth.

[176] I was like, oh, God.

[177] Oh.

[178] But I think I'm okay.

[179] Good.

[180] That hurts.

[181] That makes me think of when I first, was it when I first got Blossom and she jumped up right at me?

[182] So our, like, skulls cracked.

[183] Oh.

[184] And something hit my teeth where I was like, ooh, that's a specific bad feeling.

[185] Yeah.

[186] Yeah.

[187] It was a very like, did that just crack my teeth?

[188] Yeah, for sure.

[189] Did that crack my skull up past my teeth?

[190] I love when it's like, hey, guys, have evergreen content because this is coming out early.

[191] This is where you're and my brains go, which is pretty great.

[192] And I think it's also like indicative of us being able to have done this podcast for almost seven fucking years because we're able to just like fill in the time.

[193] Hell yes.

[194] With tragedy.

[195] Because you know what?

[196] At this point, we know what a good story is.

[197] And a good story isn't.

[198] I watch this thing on TV.

[199] We're just trying to fill, fill our shows with what might be relevant to others.

[200] Yeah.

[201] But we know what's relevant to us is especially me living alone in this house.

[202] Like, I fell down and then I was just like, I might need to stay here for a while.

[203] Just in case, I don't fucking know.

[204] Right.

[205] And there's no. It's like, and I kind of crawled over to the carpet, you know, just to get a little softness under my butt.

[206] Yeah, exactly.

[207] It was just like, hmm.

[208] No, I don't like this at all.

[209] Oh, God.

[210] But I have to say this, and I'm sorry to say it, because I'm a believer, not when this podcast comes out, but when we're recording it, we're on the verge of Mercury going into retrograde.

[211] Oh, are we?

[212] And that's when you have to be careful of, you have to be careful.

[213] That makes sense.

[214] Because weird accidents happen.

[215] I was very much not careful just now when I hit myself those two times.

[216] And so it would have been completely my fault if something happened.

[217] Yeah.

[218] So it's good to know that because I definitely need to pay attention.

[219] Yeah.

[220] There was a very great female stand -up comic.

[221] And now I can't remember which one it was.

[222] It wasn't Susie Esmond, but it was in that 80s era.

[223] I'm almost positive.

[224] It was Liz Winstead's bit in stand -up where she'd go, you know you're getting middle -aged when you get into the shower and you go, all you can think is careful.

[225] Oh, no. Oh, God.

[226] Yeah.

[227] Yeah.

[228] Well, I'm there.

[229] But anyone, you know, really any age, let's all be careful.

[230] Yeah, be guys, be careful in the shower.

[231] If we've taught you anything, it's slip and falls are a real mess, and football is life.

[232] You know us, and you know these are the things we say all the time.

[233] Yeah, that's it.

[234] You know what?

[235] Should we just get into it?

[236] Yeah, we probably should only.

[237] I just wanted to say.

[238] Oh, okay.

[239] I got this lip stain.

[240] What is it?

[241] Perry, Perra, P -E -R -A.

[242] Mm -hmm.

[243] And it's just real good.

[244] Ink velvet, you stick it on and it stays on all.

[245] day long.

[246] All right.

[247] I'm doing it.

[248] I'm in.

[249] I'll wear it next time I play football.

[250] It's pretty.

[251] Now I play football.

[252] Now I play football.

[253] Now you're playing.

[254] You don't just watch it.

[255] That's how the lie escalates.

[256] So let's do some exactly right highlights real quick, shall we?

[257] Oh, sorry.

[258] It's going to stop you.

[259] Oh, go.

[260] Did you want me to open this box that you sent over?

[261] I'm so glad you were.

[262] No. Oh my God.

[263] This is fucking weird.

[264] Okay.

[265] Okay.

[266] Give me one second.

[267] Let me go fine.

[268] Okay.

[269] I think, hold that.

[270] This is true.

[271] I'll just preface this by saying, Georgia sent me a box and it says, Karen, don't open.

[272] That's all it says on it.

[273] And I got it last Tuesday, which was basically a week ago since the last episode that we recorded.

[274] And it's like a little surprise.

[275] So just in case you're confused, I have a brown box at my house.

[276] And apparently Georgia has one at her house too.

[277] So I think this is going to be an audio unboxing.

[278] Okay, I just ran upstairs to grab this thing that I bought for us and I sent it to you and I said, do not open on the box.

[279] And it's a theme that we've done before, but it's eerily fitting for today's episode.

[280] And my mind, I did not do this on purpose.

[281] My mind's a little blown.

[282] Okay.

[283] Open the box.

[284] Okay.

[285] It is another bag of Brock's candy corn.

[286] flavors in uh -oh we've done Thanksgiving we've done a couple different kind we did what is it street food and this one is tailgate flavor tailgate flavors we're talking about football that's crazy hot dog hamburger popcorn fruit punch vanilla ice cream this is going to be disgusting i'm so excited me too okay so let's open the bag tailgate flavor tailgate oh i have to give a shout out to the murderino who told me about it.

[287] Hold on one second.

[288] Oh, okay.

[289] Oh, I opened it and I can smell it already.

[290] Oh, you smell it?

[291] Hamburger hot dog.

[292] Oh, my God.

[293] You have to get the code.

[294] I know.

[295] Yeah, which one's which?

[296] I just got a handful of what I think is entirely popcorn, which, based on the jelly belly, jelly beans, is a nightmare.

[297] A woman named Jenny Marie at J -B -I -E -S -87.

[298] on Twitter is the one who told me about this and was like, you guys have to try this.

[299] So, I mean, I think we need to go right into the hot dog, but it doesn't look like they have a...

[300] It doesn't seem to be a code unless it's left to right the way they appear.

[301] Okay, so fruit punch should be pink and mostly pink with orange.

[302] Yeah.

[303] And then there, okay.

[304] So mostly...

[305] Vanilla ice cream is mostly white.

[306] Let's try vanilla ice cream because I have a lot of those.

[307] Okay.

[308] Okay.

[309] Mm -mm.

[310] Oh, no. That's popcorn.

[311] Is it?

[312] Mine tastes like popcorn.

[313] Let's just close our eyes and pick one and put one in our mouth and see what happens.

[314] Okay.

[315] Okay.

[316] But I really did not like popcorn.

[317] Okay.

[318] Dottie is, like, trying to eat these right now.

[319] It's very weird.

[320] Okay, here I go.

[321] Okay.

[322] I just don't want to eat a second popcorn.

[323] Then pick one a different color.

[324] Okay.

[325] Ready?

[326] Go.

[327] Oh, no. That's hamburger.

[328] Oh, oh.

[329] That's hamburger.

[330] Mine is vanilla ice cream, which is what I was expecting last time.

[331] Pick one with orange in it.

[332] Okay.

[333] Oh, that's fucking, tastes like a hamburger patty.

[334] Ew.

[335] Really?

[336] Yeah, I need another one.

[337] I'm sorry, the Brock's people are geniuses.

[338] Oh, my God.

[339] So hilarious.

[340] This is on level with a giant skeleton.

[341] It's just like, yes.

[342] You have a market for these people.

[343] I think I just ate a hot dog one and I really don't, might vomit.

[344] Okay.

[345] Let me see.

[346] I'm going to eat a new one.

[347] Oh.

[348] What you got?

[349] I got fruit punch now.

[350] That's better at least.

[351] Oh.

[352] I think that's supposed to be hot dog.

[353] It's weird.

[354] Yeah.

[355] I fear hamburger.

[356] Hamburger was a little life changed nearly bad.

[357] Like it kind of changed my life.

[358] Maybe I don't like football anymore after eating that.

[359] Mm -hmm.

[360] How dare you?

[361] I know.

[362] Oh, my God.

[363] This is just work.

[364] This is like, it's a fun trick and stuff, but fuck.

[365] Yeah, first the toenail, now this.

[366] I'm sweating.

[367] I'm like sweating so much.

[368] All right.

[369] We did it.

[370] First the toenail.

[371] Yeah, I don't, can we stop trying these?

[372] Yep, I promise I'll stop.

[373] I'll send them to you, but we don't have to try them anymore.

[374] No, no, I just min these flavors specifically.

[375] Oh, these now?

[376] Yes, absolutely.

[377] These now.

[378] We're done.

[379] I have the worst taste in my mouth.

[380] It's a meaty meat candy.

[381] Mine is, I have a combination hot dog vanilla ice cream thing that, yeah.

[382] This just sounds like a kid barfing at a birthday party.

[383] Oh my God, now I have vomit taste in my mouth.

[384] Sorry.

[385] It's all, I mean, it's 100%.

[386] It's rough.

[387] Look, this is what, I guess the Harry Potter bots beans thing kind of did at first with those trick ones.

[388] But I just really love the variation on the theme.

[389] that Brox has done.

[390] Yeah, I think it's brilliant.

[391] The turkey dinner one, I'm telling you guys, get that, bring it to your next Thanksgiving dinner coming up soon on us, Jesus.

[392] It's just right around the corner.

[393] Hey, guys, Thanksgiving is right around the corner.

[394] Hey, guys, promo code murder.

[395] We're doing a commercial for Thanksgiving this year.

[396] Use the promo code on your Thanksgiving to get 20 % off your family.

[397] 20 % off passive aggression.

[398] this holiday season.

[399] Can I say really quickly that I had an incredible huge honor this year that I just want to mention the re -release of the book The Stranger Beside Me by Anne Rule.

[400] I wrote the foreword to it.

[401] Yeah.

[402] Which is kind of the most surreal, crazy experience to see my name on this book that changed my life completely when I was young.

[403] Yes.

[404] And I was obsessed with.

[405] And I'm really proud of that.

[406] And so I just wanted to mention that you want to get a copy of the new stranger beside me re -release.

[407] Very cool.

[408] My name's on it, on the cover and everything.

[409] And my favorite murders mentioned on the cover, too.

[410] Amazing.

[411] That is kind of like watching football and then playing football.

[412] That's the trajectory you just took.

[413] You were a fan, and now you're a part of the game.

[414] Yeah, I am honored.

[415] Congratulations.

[416] Thank you.

[417] It's very exciting.

[418] Also, that book, if you haven't read it, truly is a page turner unlike any other.

[419] It really is a beautiful.

[420] It just stands a test of time.

[421] It's such a beautiful book.

[422] It's a true story.

[423] She lived it.

[424] She lived it.

[425] She stood next to a stranger who was beside her named Ted Bundy.

[426] She fell for the stranger beside her.

[427] Yeah.

[428] It's legendary.

[429] Ann Rule.

[430] Shout out to Ann Rule forever.

[431] Ann Rule.

[432] All right, let's do some exactly right corner.

[433] This week on I Said No Gifts, Bridger is welcoming comedic actor Timothy Simons, known for his role as Jonah Ryan on Veep, an incredible actor, that role is so perfect and good.

[434] And also over on bananas, the banana boys, you know those crazy guys.

[435] They're joined by stand -up comedian, cartoonist, and author Mo Welch talking about weird news in the world right now.

[436] She's so funny.

[437] Then on I saw what you did, Millie and Danielle highlight another double feature with a mystifying theme.

[438] This time, it's Ordinary People from 1980, and a clockwork orange from 1971.

[439] What a duo!

[440] And my guess, because you know every year you're supposed to guess the theme, my guess for that theme would be the definition of heavy.

[441] Because both of those movies.

[442] They are heavy.

[443] Then also in the MFF store, we have an end of summer sale happening on everything from our puzzles to the pajamas that we so love.

[444] And we're also offering a gift with purchases over $60.

[445] The sale ends on September 18th.

[446] So go to my favoritemerder .com to find some merch and treasure.

[447] Get some Thanksgiving gift giving out of the way.

[448] Yeah.

[449] You know, Thanksgiving's right around the corner.

[450] Everybody.

[451] Promo code murder.

[452] I'm first this week, right?

[453] Yes, you are.

[454] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[455] Absolutely.

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[457] Exactly.

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[473] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[474] Goodbye.

[475] This week, I'm doing pretty much the least obscure story you've ever heard of.

[476] Okay.

[477] I watched a really great documentary about this person and this story, and it's kind of a mystery thing that we all know, but maybe don't know that much about because it's so huge in pop culture that we kind of don't, like, pay attention to the details.

[478] But today, for you, I'm going to talk about the mysterious death of Marilyn Monroe.

[479] Wow.

[480] I know, right?

[481] Yeah.

[482] Why not?

[483] Interesting.

[484] Of course.

[485] It's mysterious and gives one a bad feeling when they think about it.

[486] It really does.

[487] And I'm not going to help with that at all.

[488] So the documentary I watched over the weekend was the 2022 Netflix documentary, The Mystery of Marilyn Monroe, The Unheard Tapes, which is based on the book by Anthony Summers.

[489] It's a 1985 biography called Goddess.

[490] And so I was kind of curious about this documentary.

[491] I was like, I know everything about Marilyn Monroe.

[492] I don't need to see anything.

[493] new, but it was actually really beautifully done and told about her life and what she was really like via these recordings and these interviews that Summers did.

[494] It was the interview tape playing and an actor reenacting it in the time, like in the era.

[495] So it looked legitimate.

[496] It was very cool because a lot of these people are dead, obviously.

[497] Like a historic reenactment kind of?

[498] Exactly.

[499] And it was really well done.

[500] So some of the sources used in today's episode are a Vanity Fair article by Julie Miller, a heavily used article by Robert Welkos and Ted Rolich, and also another by Shelby Grad, a New York Times article by Robert Lindsay, a Time Magazine article by Stephanie Zacharic.

[501] Also, declassified FBI records were used.

[502] Okay.

[503] And many, yeah, and many more sources.

[504] So check those out in the show notes.

[505] Let us start on the morning of August 5th, 1962, when the news breaks across the world that 36 -year -old Marilyn Monroe, one of the greatest screen legends of all time, has suddenly died of a drug overdose.

[506] The world is shocked, and grief of Marilyn's passing is felt throughout the world.

[507] The official story is that her housekeeper Eunice Murray had found Marilyn unresponsive in her bed at her bungalow in the Hollywood suburb of Brentwood around 3 a .m. on August 5th.

[508] Eunice says that she had called Marilyn's psychiatrist Dr. Ralph Greenson, who had been treating Marilyn for the past two years.

[509] years for depression.

[510] And the pair had become very close with their therapeutic relationship.

[511] And actually there's interviews with him and his family in this documentary that are really interesting.

[512] Like they become a kind of like she kind of joins their family and they become close.

[513] So he arrives, he says, at 3 .40 a .m., he has to break into Maryland's room through a window because the door is locked and she's not responding to anyone knocking on the door.

[514] Then two minutes later he says he opens the bedroom door and tells Eunice, we've lost her.

[515] So then at 3 .50 a .m., her doctor, Dr. Ingleberg, arrives and pronounces Marilyn dead.

[516] In the bedroom are 15 bottles of medication, some of which are empty, and Maryland's been dead for six to eight hours, they say.

[517] The doctors don't call the police for another 35 minutes, and Dr. Ingleberg later explains that it's because he was so shocked that Marilyn was dead, and they had discussed whether or not to call the police, which they eventually do.

[518] So that's why there's like a weird gap, which is part of the mystery.

[519] It's like, why did they wait so long to call the police?

[520] Marilyn's body is then taken to the L .A. County coroner's mortuary for an autopsy, and there are mixed reports about what happens to the bottles of the medication.

[521] Some say they all remain in the house.

[522] Marilyn's manager, and as Melston claims, she threw them away, I'm sure a bunch of people took them, right?

[523] That's like a fucking souvenir and everyone knows it.

[524] Like, I mean, cop in the room that day.

[525] Yeah.

[526] Would have taken one, I would think.

[527] That's possible for sure.

[528] Or like people were trying to cover for her, knowing that looks bad just to get to clear the area.

[529] Totally.

[530] Like a PR thing for sure.

[531] Mm -hmm.

[532] Other reports say eight bottles are sent to the coroner's office, including an empty bottle labeled Nembutal, which was only filled the day before, and another labeled chloral hydrate.

[533] So both those sedatives are used to treat insomnia, which she has, it's like no secret, she has insomnia.

[534] Chloral hydrate is also effective in treating anxiety associated with withdrawal from alcohol, opiates and barbiturates, and it's also known that she had a problem with all of these.

[535] But if you take that medication, the chloral hydrate, along with nebutal, it's fatal.

[536] It can be fatal.

[537] The toxicology report shows that along with chloral hydrate in Maryland has a lethal dose of nubutal in her system.

[538] The 13 % nebutal reading indicates she must have ingested the drugs within about a minute.

[539] So that huge amount she took within a minute.

[540] Yet the Deputy Medical Examiner, Dr. Thomas Noguchi, doesn't find any barbitrate or capsule residue in Maryland's stomach.

[541] So if she took all those drugs, she didn't take them like a handful of pills because there's no capsules in her stomach.

[542] If Marilyn swallows enough nebutal pills to give the 13 % reading in her liver, she would have died before.

[543] all the residue dissolved.

[544] So she didn't take a handful of this pill, essentially.

[545] Okay.

[546] Marilyn's large intestine is also discolored, which is a possible indication of an enema.

[547] And there's no sign of any injection sites on her body.

[548] So that's kind of out of the question.

[549] But there is a small unexplained bruise.

[550] All right, let's talk a little bit about Marilyn's life.

[551] Of course, she's world famous.

[552] Publicly, she's portrayed as the epitome of a sophisticated woman and feminine.

[553] She's glamorous, this golden age of Hollywood, this icon.

[554] She's an aspirational figure beloved by everyone, men and women.

[555] But underneath Maryland's professional success, she's also extremely emotionally insecure and lonely, and she goes through these bouts of depression.

[556] She's born Norma Jean Moranson on June 1, 1926 in L .A., and she's later christened Norma Jean Baker, and those two surnames are of her mother's ex -husbands.

[557] So neither of those are her father.

[558] Marilyn never actually knows her father, and that fact plagues her throughout her life.

[559] Her mother Gladys suffers from chronic schizophrenia, and in 1934, she's in and out of psychiatric hospitals and is unable to care for her daughter.

[560] And so Marilyn moves around from numerous foster homes.

[561] She goes into the Los Angeles Orphans Home Society for two years.

[562] She has no positive, stable parental role models.

[563] And during this time, she's sexually abused by a lodger at one of her carers.

[564] So she has a really tragic sad life.

[565] She calls herself a waif and just kind of there's no stability in her life whatsoever.

[566] I did not know that about her mother or the fact that she was essentially a foster child.

[567] Yeah.

[568] I had no idea.

[569] In L .A. I didn't know that part.

[570] I thought she was from the fucking Midwest or something like that, you know?

[571] Right.

[572] Yeah.

[573] It's really sad.

[574] And they talk about that in the documentary as well.

[575] There's interviews of her as well.

[576] the documentary talking about how she just never felt like she had a stable home and she thought she had a mother.

[577] She wasn't an orphan in her mind because her mom, you know, was here, but she was unable to care for her.

[578] Yeah.

[579] So in June 1942, 16 -year -old Norma Jean marries her neighbor's son, 21 -year -old James Doherty.

[580] And then Marilyn gets noticed by a photographer at her factory job and her modeling career begins.

[581] But she had wanted to be an actress her whole life.

[582] If she would sit in the movie theater, didn't care what movie it was, would just watch it and dream about being a good actor.

[583] But her marriage, her marriage, she starts at 16 years old, ends in 1946 because now at 20 years old, Marilyn signs with 20th century Fox, and the contract says she can't be married.

[584] And they talk about the exploitation of these girls back then, you know, these actresses, these wannabe actresses, and how she can't be married because she can't be married she has to be available essentially available to the higher ups like it's just that simple also yeah that just provides an extra level of protection and outside eyes of someone going what are you doing this is inappropriate don't do that I'm not comfortable with this yeah so I'm sorry then this this first husband could have been the love of her life but then she had to pick like she was made to choose between her career and her who knows yeah life yeah and she and she the thing about this documentary that talks about is that she was just always chasing love especially with older men like father figure type she was always chasing not just with men but with the public like wanting to be loved and adored so badly because she had none of that her childhood and it is like so amazing that these circumstances she grew up in she was still able to become I mean you know she had this like dumb blonde bombshell image that they wanted her to have but she was absolutely fucking not.

[585] She was very, very smart.

[586] Well, and that kind of upbringing is difficult and traumatic as it might be.

[587] Also, absolutely, like, basically provides the fuel to get you to where you want to go.

[588] That's the, you know, the paradox of those difficulties, especially when you're a kid, is that then suddenly something gets planted inside you and you're like, well, now I'm just going to do it.

[589] Yeah.

[590] Yeah, there's nothing holding me back.

[591] Totally.

[592] Yeah.

[593] She was definitely a badass.

[594] So after some bit part, She moves around some studios, and now she's renamed Marilyn Monroe.

[595] And her film career really kicks off in 1950.

[596] But Marilyn's plagued by self -doubt.

[597] She appears to struggle with constant feelings of professional and personal inadequacy.

[598] She has debilitating stage fright, so she's often late to set because of that and can't remember her lines.

[599] And she wants to do take after take, so the schedule gets all fucked up because of her.

[600] But of course, she's also exploited and abused by Hollywood studio executives, who aren't interested in her talent.

[601] She also has a strong work ethic and she's intelligent, but of course that's not what they're interested in.

[602] However, she's determined to be a success.

[603] In 1954, wanting to gain a sense of professionalism, Marilyn starts her own production company.

[604] And this gives her more control over her career and Fox agrees to pay her a higher salary.

[605] Yet she continues to chase approval and love from powerful authority figures.

[606] And in 1954, then 27 -year -old Mary, retired baseball star, 39 -year -old Joe DiMaggio.

[607] Yep.

[608] So she's 27, he's 39 and retired.

[609] But the marriage is rocky.

[610] Joe is physically and emotionally abusive towards her.

[611] And nine months later, the couple divorces.

[612] Wow, that's a fast one.

[613] Yeah.

[614] From 1955, Marilyn trains at the actor's studio in New York.

[615] She just really wants to be taken seriously.

[616] She learns the method acting technique where students have to use their own personal experiences to develop their acting skills.

[617] And so as she explores that, she revisits her painful history of childhood trauma and attachment issues, and she uses it to become a better actress, which is just incredible.

[618] So she's really, really focused on becoming a credible, serious, dramatic actor.

[619] In 1956, now 29 -year -old Marilyn Mary's 40 -year -old playwright, Arthur Miller, who's, like, the most famous playwright in the world at the time.

[620] She wants a family.

[621] and they seem really, really happy together.

[622] But during the marriage, in the very beginning, Marilyn finds notes that Arthur Miller has written saying she's not much of improvement over his ex -wife, and he calls her, quote, disappointment and a, quote, whore.

[623] Oh, she finds notes after a party that he wrote to himself saying that shit.

[624] Can you fucking imagine?

[625] Sorry, why do you have to fucking write that down?

[626] Yeah, dude.

[627] What, just a quick scribble it so you don't forget?

[628] Yeah.

[629] Yeah, this isn't a play.

[630] And also that, I don't know, what would hurt your feelings worse to read something like that or just to find a love letter?

[631] Like, it feels like it's so much worse, it's so personal and shitty, it's like saying, it's not like going, it's not you, it's, I just met this other person.

[632] It's like, it's you, you're a disappointment.

[633] Yeah, you're not what I thought you would be, which is like, fuck you.

[634] Gross.

[635] And sadly, Marilyn suffers two miscarriages and the marriage ends in the late 1960.

[636] She had really wanted to start a family, and it didn't work out.

[637] Can I just remind you that if it was modern times, she would go to jail for having miscarriages?

[638] Just a quick reminder of where we are in America.

[639] Okay, go ahead.

[640] Nope, that's a great point.

[641] By this time, she also reconnects with someone she had met earlier, a 43 -year -old senator named John F. Kennedy.

[642] Yeah.

[643] She reconnects with him just before he's elected president.

[644] and she had known him via the rat pack in the 1950s, and they grow close.

[645] In early 1961, 34 -year -old Marilyn goes into the Payne -Wittany psychiatric clinic in New York for four days for her insomnia, which I'm sure it was for a lot more than that.

[646] But she's treated inhumanely and it traumatizes her further.

[647] She's isolated in a padded cell and has forced baths, which I think means forced cold baths.

[648] They used to do like ice baths.

[649] lunges and shit.

[650] Yeah.

[651] And she finally, after four days, Joe DiMaggio, her ex -husband, comes around and he's able to get her out.

[652] But instead of this being kept private, hordes of media had found out, and they're waiting outside the psychiatric hospital.

[653] And in this documentary, there's so many videos of her just leaving the psychiatric ward, leaving anywhere, being just fucking hounded.

[654] And she puts on this pretty face and says, I feel wonderful, everything's great, but it's just looks like a nightmare.

[655] So by this time, Marilyn had met JFK's little brother, 36 -year -old Robert Kennedy, who had been appointed Attorney General.

[656] In early 1962, Maryland had a brief affair with JFK, and some people say it was just a one -night stand.

[657] And then Bobby comes along, who kind of takes care of JFK's business, and says like, hey, this is over, it's not going to happen.

[658] But then they kind of fall for each other, and they start hooking up.

[659] And from what I can tell, like what I think from this documentary is that Marilyn and Bobby Kennedy were really the real item going on here, not JFK.

[660] Huh.

[661] Yeah.

[662] So they all start hanging out at actor Peter Lawford's house.

[663] He's married to a Kennedy sister, and it's kind of this, like, playground where everyone goes to, like, hook up and have affairs and have their discreet fun, or not discreet fun, but discreet from, you know, paparazzi and shit.

[664] Right.

[665] So it seems like she goes there a lot to hang out with Bobby Kennedy.

[666] I mean, here's the thing about those old school blue blood, East Coast rich people, which the Kennedys were, classic withholders.

[667] Somebody like Marilyn, who's always on the hunt for love and like, I'm not good enough, do's like that with like the bat of an eye, you are dedicated for life.

[668] Yeah.

[669] Because all they have to do is be lightly nice to you and then ignore you.

[670] And you're like, he's number one.

[671] And they're so powerful.

[672] Totally.

[673] It was like insane.

[674] Well, that and like, I think she really wanted to be known as smart.

[675] And she wanted people to think she was smart.

[676] And part of like marrying Arthur Miller was around that of like, look, I'm marrying an intelligent person.

[677] And by, you know, that means I am too.

[678] I think she wanted the Kennedys to think and know how intelligent she was.

[679] And so the minute they're like, yeah, that's a great point or whatever.

[680] Yeah, she's smitten.

[681] Yeah.

[682] Yeah.

[683] But by this time, Marilyn is really.

[684] regularly taking amphetamines, and she's mixing opiates and barbiturates with alcohol to help her sleep.

[685] On the set of her last picture, something's got to give.

[686] She's often under the influence of prescription drugs.

[687] She's so unreliable that she's fired and then rehired again.

[688] She's just not in a great place.

[689] Something's got to give.

[690] What's that?

[691] Yeah.

[692] It's supposed to be great.

[693] I've never seen it.

[694] I just brought up her page just to look at all the tons of movies she's been in.

[695] Yeah.

[696] So crazy.

[697] Did you ever see?

[698] see, some like it hot?

[699] Mm -hmm.

[700] She's so...

[701] Darling.

[702] She's amazing in that movie.

[703] She's a great actress, for real.

[704] She's a really great, compelling actress that, like, every thing she was doing, you're just like, this is great.

[705] What's how?

[706] This is so funny.

[707] Yeah, you can't take your eyes off of her.

[708] Yeah.

[709] So during...

[710] Let's go back to the investigation of her death.

[711] During the initial investigation when she died, police talked to those close to her, including that Peter Lawford, Rat Pack guy, A week before Marilyn dies, he says she's feeling suicidal, drinking to excess, and taking lots of sleeping pills.

[712] Eunice Murray, the housekeeper.

[713] And I think she was way more than a housekeeper.

[714] I think she was almost like a guardian.

[715] To me, it seems that way.

[716] She privately says that hours before Marilyn dies, Bobby Kennedy had visited her to break off their affair.

[717] So the papers claim that Marilyn later speaks to Peter Lawford on the phone.

[718] Police try to interview him, but don't pursue inquiries with him.

[719] 20 years later, he says the first he hears about Marilyn's death is when his manager calls him at 1 .30 in the morning.

[720] But don't forget, Eunice said publicly the public story was that at 3 a .m. is when she found Maryland unresponsive.

[721] Oh.

[722] And Bobby Kennedy being in town that day is news to everyone too.

[723] It's like not a known thing.

[724] Okay.

[725] So, yeah.

[726] The coroner appoints a panel of mental health professionals to conduct a psychological autopsy of Maryland.

[727] Her behavior in the days leading up to her death is noted as unstable.

[728] The panel notes she previously tries to take her own life via a sedative overdose, and quote, had often expressed wishes to give up to withdraw and even to die.

[729] Her death is determined to be probable suicide caused by acute, barbiturate poisoning.

[730] And so one of the mysteries is, did she take her own life on purpose or was it accidental?

[731] That was one of those enduring mysteries.

[732] But also there's the whole conspiracy of did the Kennes have her.

[733] killed.

[734] Did someone else have her killed?

[735] You know, what really happened?

[736] Right.

[737] But others who are close to Maryland don't report her as being suicidal at all leading up to her death.

[738] They say she's planning to travel.

[739] She's focused on her work.

[740] And of course, there's no suicide note ever found.

[741] This group, including Joe DiMaggio, who arranges Maryland's funeral, suspects Maryland's been murdered due to her involvement with the Kennedys.

[742] And they start questioning the suicide finding.

[743] Wow.

[744] Very early on.

[745] So that, okay, that's interesting to know.

[746] I thought that's, It would have been a later kind of National Enquirer type of thing.

[747] Oh, no. It was like an immediate news story.

[748] Is it on purpose or is it suicide?

[749] Wow.

[750] Yeah.

[751] Well, also she has not to be, not like it works this way.

[752] Yeah.

[753] But innocent, my first dumb thought is she has so much to live for and she can have any man she wants.

[754] She's literally the embodiment of like, like the peak of femininity and perfection.

[755] Yeah.

[756] but she already has these feelings of inadequacy and that she's never going to be loved, wanted, needed.

[757] I think it's that classic lack of having a parental or a father figure, you're just constantly needing this thing.

[758] This is the only person who will ever love me if they don't want me. And it looks like Bobby Kennedy did try to end things that day.

[759] Oh, yeah.

[760] Come on.

[761] I know.

[762] But it's complicated, though.

[763] It's crazy why he was ending.

[764] like it got really, really messy.

[765] Yeah.

[766] Which they can't have.

[767] Right.

[768] I'm sure.

[769] It just makes me think of my listening to my two young, you know, like pseudo -nephews talking because one, a girl had broken up with him.

[770] And the other one just goes, get another one.

[771] And I was like, that's so true.

[772] Just get another one.

[773] Get another one.

[774] Get another one.

[775] Yeah.

[776] All right.

[777] So let's go to 1982 when this like public speculation and rumor about Maryland's death is so rampant that the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors asked the DA's office to reinvestigate.

[778] Dr. Engelberg, who was the doctor at the time, the one of the scene, there was the doctor and the psychiatrist and the housekeeper.

[779] Tells the DA office he had only prescribed numbutal to Maryland, not the other drug.

[780] She also died from chloral hydrate.

[781] So he had prescribed that to her that day and didn't know she was on chloral hydrate, which the duo would have, you know, is possibly fatal.

[782] So it's estimated that for Maryland to have died by suicide, she would have had to take around 25 to 40 nambutal pills.

[783] And it's not clear who had prescribed her chloral hydrate or how she had so many different medications, which I mean, like, medications are easy to get, right?

[784] Your friend has some, you're like, they're like, this works for anxiety and you try it.

[785] Not that I've ever done that before.

[786] Yeah, exactly.

[787] Yeah, exactly.

[788] But also, yeah, movie stars, people better.

[789] end over backwards to give them things that they will be grateful for.

[790] Right.

[791] Don't mix medications, you guys.

[792] It's very dangerous.

[793] Yes, it is.

[794] Dr. Noguchi tells the DA's office that when he later asked for tissue samples from Maryland's autopsy to be tested, he's told they've been destroyed.

[795] So it's not known, like, who gave her what and why she had a prescription for this and that.

[796] Another weird thing is that the first police officer on the scene, Sergeant Jack Clemens tells investigators that when he arrived, Eunice Murray, the housekeeper, is running the washing machine, but no one asks what she's washing or why.

[797] The 1982 investigation finds that Marilyn dies either by suicide or an accidental overdose.

[798] So they are doubling down on that.

[799] And the DA claims the reason there's no barbiturate residue in Marilyn's stomach is because the drugs had time to be absorbed into her blood and liver.

[800] So they think she died way earlier than when it was called in.

[801] So this is when this reporter who made the documentary, Anthony Summers, comes in.

[802] He hears about all this weird stuff going on.

[803] He does his own deep dive.

[804] He does 650 recorded interviews with 1 ,000 people just trying to get information, like in the 80s.

[805] So enough time had passed.

[806] He's hoping people will talk about what happened.

[807] So one thing is that in the early 1960s, a private investigator named Fred Otash, who's working for Jimmy Hoffa, head of the Teamsters Union, who of course has mob connections, notably with mafia boss Sam Giancana.

[808] He says that Jimmy Hatha and Sam Giancana hate Bobby Kennedy because the government is cracking down on organized crime.

[809] So in 1961, Jimmy gets this private investigator to tap Marilyn's house.

[810] So he goes into her house and taps her phone.

[811] It happened.

[812] Like this is so fucking crazy to me that you just break into someone's house back then, tap their telephone line.

[813] So he does it at Maryland's house, and he also does it at Peter Lofford, the Rat Pack guy's Malibu House, where everyone hangs out.

[814] Oh, wow.

[815] So he taps their phone and their house and basically gets recordings of Bobby Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe doing it.

[816] Like, he gets everything.

[817] Wow.

[818] And he gets her talking about politics.

[819] She's a total leftist.

[820] She's kind of spilling the beans on stuff that Bobby Kennedy is telling her, you know, and that JFK is telling her as a friend.

[821] like beds in bed.

[822] And she's a total leftist and she's also friends with people who are known communists.

[823] So it's totally possible that the U .S. government hearing all of this information might start to get worried that she's going to have, she's going to be spreading these secrets that are secrets.

[824] Okay.

[825] Secret, wait, secret secrets?

[826] Secrets that are secrets.

[827] Secrets, okay.

[828] Top secrets, some people would say.

[829] Extra strength secret.

[830] Extra strength, secret.

[831] Okay, the recordings also capture, allegedly, Marilyn and Bobby Kennedy having a fight at her house the afternoon right before she dies.

[832] Oh.

[833] So it's just so, like, she dies during all this, and it just so happens that there's recordings of all of it because of these illegal activities.

[834] That's crazy.

[835] Isn't that wild?

[836] Where are those recordings?

[837] You'll never know.

[838] On Netflix?

[839] Unfortunately, no. And so that day, Bobby does call off the affair and tells her not to contact him.

[840] or the president again because the FBI is worried about Marilyn fucking spilling these secrets and they're like Bobby, you can't see her anymore.

[841] So she's, who knows how deep they were, but she's clearly devastated about this.

[842] After Bobby leaves her house, she calls the White House to talk to the president.

[843] And then so Bobby goes to the Malibu House and tells Peter he's worried about what Marilyn might do.

[844] So he's aware that she might do something to herself.

[845] Peter Lafford's third wife, Deborah Gould, who's in this documentary, claims that years after Marilyn's death, her husband, then husband Peter, reveals Marilyn is incredibly distressed about Bobby Colly Things Off.

[846] Peter calls Marilyn that day, who said she's, quote, had it with, quote, being passed around like a piece of meat.

[847] And before ending the call, Marilyn says, just do me a favor.

[848] Tell the president, I tried to get him.

[849] Tell him goodbye for me. I think my purpose has been served.

[850] Oh.

[851] Uh -huh.

[852] Bobby calls Marilyn later that night and she tells him to leave her alone.

[853] That night that she's found dead, Marilyn's publicist Arthur Jacobs is at a Hollywood Bowl concert and he receives word that Marilyn has died.

[854] So his wife, who's there with him, corroborates that he found out at 10 .30 that night.

[855] So this whole 3 a .m. thing is not fucking true.

[856] He leaves the Hollywood Bowl, apparently gets to Marilyn's house at 11 o 'clock, and they start making phone calls.

[857] They multiple witness corroborate that when Marilyn is found that evening, she's lying on her side and she's alive but unconscious.

[858] And then the ambulance tries to take her to the hospital but she dies on the way.

[859] And so instead of taking her to the hospital to be declared dead, the thought is that they turn around, take her back to her house, put her in her bed.

[860] And the reason it takes so long to, quote, you know, find her and that she dies later is so that Bobby Kennedy can get out of town before she's found.

[861] So he has no connection to what's going on.

[862] on.

[863] That's kind of what this documentary is like purporting is that they waited so he could and there is a helicopter log from that night taking him across the bay to San Francisco.

[864] I mean.

[865] At 2 or 3 a .m. in the morning.

[866] The rich and the powerful live completely different lives.

[867] Yeah.

[868] Than any of us are even familiar with.

[869] Totally.

[870] Totally.

[871] Imagine getting to leave an area in a helicopter just because it wouldn't look great for you.

[872] Yeah.

[873] Just get airlifted out of a situation.

[874] Hey man, we got to get you out of here because this looks really bad because this horrible thing has happened.

[875] John Minor, a former deputy DA, comes out and says that Maryland's access to top secret information via her affair with the Kennedys put the administration in a compromising position and that she's known to be a bit loose -lipped on the phone regarding her conversations with the brothers about matters of national security.

[876] So he surmises that the government goes into damage control and had her killed because of it.

[877] And so he suggests there's a conspiracy behind Maryland's stomach contents going missing at the autopsy and the claim that there's no evidence she ingested the nebutal.

[878] So maybe someone put the nebutal, remember there was evidence that she had had an enema.

[879] Oh, yeah.

[880] So maybe it was given to her after she had been passed out from the other drug and given to her of e -enema.

[881] But there's no evidence of that at all.

[882] And, you know, if you're going to do the whole fucking Occam's Razor thing, the most likely thing is that she was really upset about this relationship ending, took pills whether or not it was on purpose and passed away because of it.

[883] It's just an interesting thing to think of if somebody takes a lot of pills and drinks a lot of drinks and then wants to get on the phone because they witness things they weren't supposed to witness or have been made privy to information that, they shouldn't have been.

[884] That's just kind of, it's just like, well, what information could it be that they would need to go kill somebody, like secretly?

[885] Don't forget, at the time, there's a lot of really sensitive stuff going on in U .S. politics.

[886] It's the height of the Cold War with communist Russia.

[887] Maryland's ex -husband Arthur Miller identified as a communist, and he was on the blacklist.

[888] By 1962, the threat of the country by Fidel Castro and Cuba, and the Russians, has the U .S. government really on fucking edge.

[889] So they are also, like, losing it.

[890] It's possible that that's what was going on, and that's why it's not totally out of the realm of possibility that she was talking too much.

[891] You know what I mean?

[892] Like, I guess that's, like, part of it.

[893] It's not totally out of the realm of possibility that JFK was shot by his own government or by the mafia or by someone other than a lone gunman, which I think is what keeps the story going.

[894] Right.

[895] It's very feasible, if I may use that word.

[896] that that could take place.

[897] Also, this theory just popped in my head.

[898] It could have been in the beginning they were talking about sensitive stuff in front of her because they thought she wasn't that smart.

[899] And then when she starts putting two and two together and circling back of like, wait a second, does that mean that da -da -da?

[900] You know, I don't know.

[901] And based on a lot of information, she was a fucking leftist and it looks like a pacifist.

[902] And so she could have heard all this stuff they thought she was too stupid to understand, actually got upset by it and started telling people like her ex -husband, Arthur Miller, who was a communist, all this crazy information, who would actually do something about that information.

[903] So maybe she wasn't going to act on it, but she was telling people she shouldn't have been.

[904] Yes, that makes sense.

[905] So that's a really good point.

[906] Before the Red Scare, there was lots of casual communists in Hollywood because that used to be like saying it, it turned into the thing that it was where the McCarthy stuff and all that.

[907] But before that, it was kind of like, it meant you were artsy.

[908] You know what I mean?

[909] It was kind of like, I'm open -minded and I don't, you know, let's like defeat the man or whatever.

[910] And then it became that thing of like, you are the reason this country is at risk.

[911] Totally.

[912] Totally.

[913] So taken altogether, the evidence does indicate that there's some sort of cover up around Maryland's death.

[914] In the same way that people suggest there's a cover up with both Kennedy brothers of events.

[915] eventual shooting deaths, which is so fucking wild.

[916] There's only one surviving photo, at least publicly, of Marilyn Monroe with the Kennedy brothers.

[917] And it's after that happy birthday song, she sings them because all the other photos were confiscated, as well as any audio of them talking to each other from that wiretap.

[918] So there's none of that that, as far as we know, exists in the public.

[919] Right.

[920] In her career, which spanned the late 1940s to the early 1960s, Marilyn Monroe made over 40 movies and became one of the most enduringly famous and beloved movie stars of all time.

[921] Her tragic death only added to her status as a legend, and you can't help but wonder what other accomplishments the smart, hardworking woman would have achieved had she not died that night, however she died.

[922] And then I have a quote from her that I thought I'd end on.

[923] We should all start to live before we get too old.

[924] Fear is stupid, and so are regrets.

[925] Oh, yes.

[926] Yeah.

[927] I like that quote, Marilyn.

[928] And that is the mysterious death of Marilyn Monroe.

[929] Wow, that's fascinating.

[930] You know what?

[931] I only thought of this, though, when you just said it, if we're going to just be entertain every conspiracy theory and be, you know, which is what I enjoy.

[932] When you just said, yes, both of the Kennedy brothers were murdered.

[933] They were assassinated for whoever was behind it.

[934] they were murdered too.

[935] So there's a very strong possibility that the person that killed Maryland also killed them.

[936] Why not?

[937] Why not?

[938] And if we're going to do that, I think the most likely culprit and I hate to do this because I know how much you adore them.

[939] You have all the playing cards and everything.

[940] The go -goes?

[941] The mafia.

[942] It's just trying really quick to think of something I actually like.

[943] That was good.

[944] Yeah.

[945] The mafia.

[946] The mafia, but why?

[947] Why?

[948] Because I think if the mafia killed Marilyn Monroe, it was to get back at Bobby Kennedy or to get him to lay off the mafia as a, like, I think that she would have been killed as a, but it doesn't make any sense because maybe, maybe he broke up with her that night to try to save her.

[949] Let's do that.

[950] Here's the thing, though, you know, I jokingly defend the mafia, but now I'm actually going to do it.

[951] They don't kill women and children.

[952] The mafia is like, you keep it.

[953] It's mafia business.

[954] That's true.

[955] Maybe, unless it's Marilyn Monroe.

[956] And unless it's Bobby Kennedy, because he was really going after, and Jimmy Hoffa, he was going after Jimmy Hoff at the time.

[957] They were fucking pissed.

[958] Yeah.

[959] But they're not emotional.

[960] They're not.

[961] Yeah.

[962] They think it through.

[963] Well, great job.

[964] That was a...

[965] Thank you.

[966] That was a fun jaunt.

[967] Yeah, right?

[968] Yeah.

[969] All right.

[970] Well, I'll follow up your possible murder slash cold case slash enduring mystery with one of my favorite types of stories that I like to do on this podcast, a survival story.

[971] Woo -hoo.

[972] I'm about to tell you today the survival story of Antonio Sena.

[973] So the primary sources for today's episode are an article for ABC News, Australia, by Emily Olson and Sarah Ferguson.

[974] The Princess?

[975] Sarah Ferguson?

[976] Hey.

[977] A YouTube video by a place called AFP News where they did a whole presentation on this insane event and a New York Times article by Manuela Andrioni from 2021.

[978] And the rest of the sources will be listed in the show notes.

[979] This harrowing tale begins in the northern Brazilian state of Parra.

[980] It's January 28, 2021.

[981] So this very recent, 36 -year -old pilot Antonio Sena has just taken off from a tiny runway in a nearly 50 -year -old single -engine Cessna 210L.

[982] And as he steadily gains altitude, he can see the Amazon rainforest unfolding beneath him and all around him.

[983] And his breathtaking is that his mission that day is all business.

[984] And it's the kind of work that Antonio normally says no to.

[985] He's delivering food supplies and 160 gallons of diesel fuel to an illegal mining operation deep in the Amazon rainforest.

[986] So this is something that's common and that Antonio normally would not in any way, he would do everything to not be affiliated with these so -called wildcap miners.

[987] He knows that they themselves can be incredibly dangerous to deal with and what they do is dangerous to every living thing in the area around the mines.

[988] They clear and strip the land of minerals, and they dump toxic chemicals into nearby waterways and poison water sources for the locals.

[989] Nice.

[990] But it's mid -pandemic.

[991] It's everything is like, it's difficult times.

[992] Antonio desperately needs work.

[993] Above board flying jobs are very hard to come by.

[994] And Antonio is still financially reeling after he was forced to close the restaurant that he poured his heart and soul into and opened just a year before.

[995] So he was one of those wild.

[996] un -lucky people that got his stuff together, opened a restaurant.

[997] Shit, man. And then the pandemic hit.

[998] Nightmare.

[999] Nightmare.

[1000] So he takes the work he's offered.

[1001] And at the time, when many industries are suffering, illegal mining in Brazil is booming.

[1002] So these delivery gigs are the most consistent money available to him, and the money is good.

[1003] After about a 10 -hour day, Antonio can walk away with a guaranteed minimum of 3 ,000 Brazilian Real, which is about 590 American dollars.

[1004] So that's an amazing paycheck.

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] Yeah.

[1007] And it's hard -earned money.

[1008] The job has its risks.

[1009] He, of course, is piloting a small, old airplane filled with barrels of highly flammable fuel and cargo over vast, isolated swaths of rainforest.

[1010] So he's rolling the dice for sure.

[1011] But Antonio is a good and experienced pilot.

[1012] He's logged over 2400 hours of flight time.

[1013] he's experienced all kinds of less than ideal flying situations.

[1014] A profile on him by ABC Australia says that he has, quote, navigated dust storms in Chad, downpours in Brazil, and that in 2015, he performed a successful emergency landing with 24 passengers on board following an engine failure.

[1015] Fuck.

[1016] So he knows what he's doing.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] So he figures, Antonio figures, compared to all that, this short flight is just going to be a walk in the park.

[1019] So as soon as he reaches a flying altitude of about 3 ,000 feet, he's now situated well above the rainforest.

[1020] He sees all signs of human life and development are far in his rearview mirror.

[1021] Do they have rearview mirrors and planes?

[1022] That is.

[1023] I'm sorry, that made me laugh so fucking hard, isn't it?

[1024] That's a great...

[1025] No, probably not.

[1026] I bet they don't.

[1027] I bet they don't need them.

[1028] There's someone just, like, adjusting it, fixing their lipstick a little bit.

[1029] And here we go.

[1030] It's a hypothetical rearview mirror.

[1031] Get used to it.

[1032] You can always tell when I go off the page and just start talking.

[1033] Because the bullshit meters go off the charts.

[1034] Okay.

[1035] So now he's just flying over an endless sea of green, basically.

[1036] Suddenly about halfway through his flight, Antonio feels a distinct shift.

[1037] The steady roar of the plane's engine has suddenly dropped into ear.

[1038] silence.

[1039] He looks at the plane's gauges and he sees they're all on zero.

[1040] Nope.

[1041] This means there's no fuel flowing into the aircraft.

[1042] And he knows this because this is the exact same thing that happened to him in 2015 when he made his last emergency landing.

[1043] So he knows he basically has five minutes to come up with a plan to figure out how to land this plane in the rainforest.

[1044] If Antonio hopes to survive each step of this plan must be executed perfectly.

[1045] With the Cessna now gliding thousands of feet in the air, Antonio scans for something that might provide a soft landing.

[1046] So he's just trying to figure out what trees will be best to crash into, essentially.

[1047] Jesus.

[1048] Yeah.

[1049] Everything beneath him looks all the same.

[1050] It's just green.

[1051] And then finally he sees up ahead a spot of palms.

[1052] So he's like, okay, that's going to be a little bit better.

[1053] So he heads toward them as he reaches for the radio, to send out his distress signal, and then he braces for impact.

[1054] So we'll just talk about real quick about the Amazon rainforest, which we've known about its destruction since the 80s, or at least I have.

[1055] It's been a big deal for a long time because essentially the rainforest keeps this world alive.

[1056] And the more we destroy it, the less carbon dioxide can come out of the air.

[1057] And the more greenhouse gases and basically climate.

[1058] change will happen, the more we destroy it.

[1059] So it's obviously a very important thing to protect.

[1060] The Amazon rainforest is the largest tropical rainforest in the world.

[1061] Spans nine different countries in South America.

[1062] It's almost as big as the entire continental United States.

[1063] Wow.

[1064] I know.

[1065] I didn't know that.

[1066] No, I didn't either.

[1067] More than half of its total area is in Brazil alone.

[1068] So that's the majority.

[1069] And of course, countless wilds, wildlife and plant species live there, some of which don't exist anywhere else on Earth.

[1070] Also, there's 30 million people that live there from 350 different ethnic groups, nearly 10 % of whom are indigenous.

[1071] So given its sheer size, there's very large portions of the rainforest that are totally isolated, have been always and remain that way.

[1072] And some of that's actually intentional.

[1073] There's parts of the Amazon rainforests that are legally protected from human activity because it's damage, as I was saying, basically leads to rising sea levels and melting glaciers.

[1074] Environmentalists say that over the last 40 years, because of illegal logging and farming, an area roughly the size of California has been obliterated in the Brazilian Amazon.

[1075] Wow.

[1076] Deforestation rates hit a six -year high in Brazil just this year.

[1077] Jesus.

[1078] So it's an issue that I thought kind of got addressed in the 90s when everyone starts.

[1079] started learning about, you know, all that kind of stuff.

[1080] Ozone layers and shit, yeah.

[1081] Also, according to research done by the New York Times, between 2010 and 2022, criminal mining operations have absolutely ballooned.

[1082] And these mines, which are often connected to criminal networks, grew by 300 % on rainforest lands that are legally protected and 500 % on indigenous rainforest lands.

[1083] And that's having devastating effects.

[1084] When the land's cleared, the people are displaced, and the toxic chemicals that are used in the mining, one of which is mercury, ends up in local waterways and poisoning entire water supplies.

[1085] So the lack of strong response by law enforcement in Brazil, coupled with the recent weakening of environmental protections, have allowed these illegal mines to flourish.

[1086] So that's kind of the current situation in the Amazon rainforest.

[1087] Well, so now we'll talk about Antonio the pilot a little bit.

[1088] When he first told his family he wanted to be a pilot, nobody was surprised because he was and always had been very adventurous.

[1089] As a boy, he never sat still.

[1090] He was always exploring on his bicycle or climbing up trees, which frustrated his very protective older sister, Mariana, especially when his knack for adventure left him with a broken arm after falling off a neighbor's roof.

[1091] So, of course, she's the older sister.

[1092] Mariana is in charge and then she turns around in her brothers she looks across and is like you've got to be kidding me I bet she got in trouble for it yes that's what I was just going to say she's like I'm going down for this one of course she's not protective she's just the one who gets in trouble for him getting fucked up that's why she has to be protective not cool the burden of the older sister that's right may we never know it cheers amen regardless mariana always wanted to help her brother achieve his dreams and along with her younger brother Tiago, Antonio's siblings sold tracks of land to help him pay for his piloting classes.

[1093] So it was like a, yeah, the family pitched in and basically helped him get that done.

[1094] Mariana even put him up at her house while he was studying for that exam.

[1095] She was, of course, always worried about it, though, because she remembers when Antonio was going to flight school, he was telling her about this lesson that they all had to learn in survival skills, and she didn't like the idea that he would someday be in a position or he would need to know these survival skills that he was learning.

[1096] And unfortunately, that day is today.

[1097] Is today.

[1098] So now we're cutting back to when Antonio looks for some palm trees, gets on the radio, calls out the distract signal, and then braces for impact.

[1099] What a nightmare.

[1100] Nice segue.

[1101] Nice segue.

[1102] Yeah.

[1103] Right?

[1104] And now we're back.

[1105] So the plane has crashed in a dark area of forest packed with vines, plants, and trees, which is every area of the rainforest.

[1106] It's all dark and green and packed.

[1107] Oh, man, there's no McDonald's.

[1108] Well, there's, yeah, there will be.

[1109] There's McDonald's cows grazing on stolen land.

[1110] Anyway, we'll talk about that.

[1111] Sting is a guest here today, and we'll have him on in a second to talk about what a problem is.

[1112] Great.

[1113] Antonio's mangled Cessna is now on the jungle floor.

[1114] And so is the 160 gallons of diesel cargo that has been ruptured in the crash.

[1115] So the entire place smells like gas.

[1116] Inside the wreckage, Antonio is pinned to his seat and he's drenched in gasoline.

[1117] But he's amazingly never lost consciousness.

[1118] He's awake.

[1119] And as far as he can tell, he's not injured from this crash.

[1120] He feels okay.

[1121] There's no major pain.

[1122] He's not confused.

[1123] He doesn't have a concussion.

[1124] All he can see on his body are a couple.

[1125] small cuts.

[1126] He's amazed.

[1127] He just fell 3 ,000 feet through the air, and somehow he's unharmed.

[1128] It's nothing short of a miracle.

[1129] Not even a toenail out of place.

[1130] Not even a toenail shifted to the left in an unholy manner like mine is.

[1131] Okay, so then the smell of gasoline hits him, and he realizes he is in a very bad position.

[1132] So he wrenches himself out of his seat.

[1133] He goes through the cabin debris, he finds his backpack.

[1134] He basically collects himself.

[1135] He has to kick out the windshield, the front windshield of the plane, jumps down, slides out onto the nose, jumps down, and just starts running for his life.

[1136] And as he's running away, the plane explodes.

[1137] Yeah.

[1138] What?

[1139] What's that action movie?

[1140] I know.

[1141] And so all alone in the forest, he turns around and looks and realizes this is the second time he's cheated death in a matter of moments.

[1142] Dude.

[1143] In a major way.

[1144] Yeah, crazy.

[1145] So he looks for a place to sit down and catch his breath, and then he goes through his backpack, and he takes stock of the supplies that are in his backpack.

[1146] So here's what he has.

[1147] He's got four cans of soda.

[1148] He's got three bottles of water, and he has got 12 bread rolls, which I would love to know what kind.

[1149] Me too.

[1150] What's your dream bunch of rolls to have if you're trapped in the Amazon rainforest?

[1151] Hawaiian sweet rolls.

[1152] Oh, yes.

[1153] Immediately.

[1154] Okay.

[1155] Oh, I would eat them.

[1156] I would eat them all right then.

[1157] And I'd be like, well, shit.

[1158] That would be a problem, probably.

[1159] They're so airy and light.

[1160] I was thinking 12 biscuits would be amazing.

[1161] Like you want a denser.

[1162] You want something denser.

[1163] Yeah.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] And when I drink my water off a leaf, then you want something that's just going to expand in your stomach, right?

[1166] Okay.

[1167] But now I really want Hawaiian sweet rolls.

[1168] Okay.

[1169] Well, let's make a list.

[1170] Okay.

[1171] Order Postmates.

[1172] Okay.

[1173] Feel free to order postmates at any time during my story.

[1174] Okay.

[1175] Okay.

[1176] He's also got, so he's got that for the food.

[1177] He's also got some tools.

[1178] He has two pocket knives, a flashlight.

[1179] He has lighters.

[1180] He has rope and he has trash bags.

[1181] That's right.

[1182] Clean up.

[1183] All right.

[1184] He has a change of clothes, consider it.

[1185] He's got a wristwatch, and he's got a totally charged cell phone.

[1186] Oh.

[1187] So hilarious.

[1188] That's not a survivor story.

[1189] Well, there's no service.

[1190] Okay, of course.

[1191] So he can play solitaire for his own sanity, which is what I would do.

[1192] Immediately.

[1193] at least start playing solitaire the second I sit down.

[1194] You and I would finish the bread rolls and you'd play solitaire and then we'd have no food and no battery anymore.

[1195] And we'd start complaining about why won't anyone help us, including ourselves?

[1196] Okay.

[1197] So he can barely see sunlight through the trees.

[1198] There's no roads.

[1199] Obviously, there's no phones.

[1200] There's no people anywhere near him.

[1201] It's just him, his fully charged phone with no service and his roles in the vast dark jungles.

[1202] So he thinks back to his survival skills class, and he knows that while he waits to be rescued, he needs to build shelter for when it invariably rains.

[1203] And he also needs to start a fire to keep warm.

[1204] So he starts gathering palm fronds and limbs to look for a place to set up camp.

[1205] So his first choice to set up that area, it's short -lived when a pack of territorial spider monkeys sabotage his efforts.

[1206] Oh, how cute.

[1207] Like they come in and literally tear him.

[1208] his shelter down as he's trying to build it.

[1209] No, at first I thought you were going to say territorial spiders.

[1210] And that was a real issue.

[1211] And then when you said spider monkeys, I was like, oh, that's adorable.

[1212] Now it's precious.

[1213] Although when I read that the first time, I got really sad if I was Antonia and just be like, the monkeys are against me. That's what a terrible feeling.

[1214] Sure.

[1215] You'd want them to work.

[1216] Yeah.

[1217] You want to think that you're snow white and that like all the creatures in the rainforest are like trying to help you.

[1218] Yeah.

[1219] How about you monkeys go get?

[1220] some palm fronts.

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] Let's work as a team.

[1223] I'll start you guys a fire.

[1224] They're like, no, you have to get out of our area.

[1225] And our area is this whole area.

[1226] Yeah.

[1227] Our area is the rainforest.

[1228] Motherbucker.

[1229] Okay, so despite his exhaustion, Antonio can barely sleep that first night.

[1230] Of course, he's in the rainforest.

[1231] Yeah.

[1232] No, thank you.

[1233] Because there are territorial spiders.

[1234] You just can't see them.

[1235] Oh, God.

[1236] I don't want to think about those guys.

[1237] No, don't think about it.

[1238] Okay.

[1239] But he is awoken all night long with scary jungle.

[1240] sounds.

[1241] He doesn't know how close any of them are or how far away or what is making the noise and he can feel bugs crawling all over his body.

[1242] And of course he has to constantly show away those spider monkeys because they will not leave him all.

[1243] I love them.

[1244] To settle his nerves, he ties a pocket knife to a stick and he sleeps with that laid across his chest, which actually would make you feel better.

[1245] It's almost like a spear.

[1246] Yeah, he's made himself a spear.

[1247] Good.

[1248] He would later say, quote, An enormous fear of the dark and its shadows took hold of me. But after a while, I understood the mechanism of fear, and instead of it paralyzing me, I used it as an engine to keep going.

[1249] Huh, mechanism of fear.

[1250] I like that.

[1251] I like it, too.

[1252] It's a parallel thought to Marilyn Monroe's quote.

[1253] Yeah, because fear is a useful tool if you use it as a tool instead of letting it take hold.

[1254] Right.

[1255] That's a really good point.

[1256] Fear is there for a reason.

[1257] Yes.

[1258] It gets you going.

[1259] Like, you have reason to be afraid, so good, take the information and then do something with it.

[1260] Yeah.

[1261] And this is what he does.

[1262] So, meanwhile, the news of the downed plane is reaching the Brazilian public.

[1263] These kinds of crashes happen frequently, and the grim reality is that most pilots are rarely found.

[1264] Yeah.

[1265] Because it's difficult, of course, to actually survive a plane crash into the rainforest.

[1266] Sure.

[1267] unlikely.

[1268] And then it's really hard for the rescue people to spot you once you've gone down.

[1269] Because basically you go into the canopy and that's it.

[1270] It's not like it leaves a big hole.

[1271] Right.

[1272] Right.

[1273] Because it's so dense in there.

[1274] Basically, it takes a miracle to get rescued in the rainforest.

[1275] But don't forget, he's already evaded death twice.

[1276] So he might be like a real house cat out there.

[1277] You might have seven more to go.

[1278] Okay.

[1279] So when this story hits like social media or, you know, it immediately resonates with Brazilian people, partly because of the time and place and Brazil is being ravaged by COVID -19, by January 2021, over 200 ,000 Brazilians will have died from coronavirus.

[1280] Wow.

[1281] So the story of a pilot's possible rainforest rescue actually offers everybody a little bit of hope and a break in just the onslaught of bad news that they're getting all the time.

[1282] The possibility of a miracle is out there now for people to focus on, and it's definitely a great distraction in quarantine, essentially.

[1283] So around 8 .30 that night, the night of the crash, Brazilian authorities call Tiago and Mariana, Antonio's brother and sister.

[1284] They're shocked.

[1285] They had no idea he was flying again, let alone flying for illegal miners.

[1286] And they know these sorts of rescue missions don't tend to have that happy endings.

[1287] But they also know their brother and how courageous he is.

[1288] And they believe he will do anything to survive.

[1289] Mariana tells Tiago, quote, let's do whatever we have to do.

[1290] We have to get to him.

[1291] And then Tiago's like, I have a dinner on Wednesday.

[1292] So maybe I'll meet you up there at the end of the week.

[1293] Oh, no. Just kidding.

[1294] He was right there.

[1295] He was right there with him.

[1296] And here's the book.

[1297] best part.

[1298] Because it happened in 2021, Mariana tweeted about the whole thing, the entire time.

[1299] Oh, wow.

[1300] Cool.

[1301] So people were truly like on the edge of their seats.

[1302] Yeah.

[1303] So after his first sleepless night in the rainforest, Antonio gets up and decides that he's going to go back to the crash, see if he can scavenge anything from after the explosion.

[1304] But of course, there's not much left that's useful.

[1305] The plane's charred.

[1306] So is anything that was left inside it.

[1307] But that's when Antonio notices there's still a gap in the tree line where his plane crashed through the palms.

[1308] And he knows that this might stand out to any rescue plane that's flying overhead.

[1309] And he figures it's the best shot at being spotted.

[1310] So he sets up camp by the wreckage.

[1311] And the spider monkeys are like, fine, we'll go over there too.

[1312] We don't care.

[1313] No. No. Oh.

[1314] So I thought they're just like following around the rainforests, fucking with him.

[1315] Oh.

[1316] I think they're a constant.

[1317] Yes.

[1318] When DreamWorks makes this movie, there will be a cast of Spider -Mosses.

[1319] Oh, absolutely.

[1320] So Antonio spends the daylight hours gathering supplies to keep himself safe and warm throughout the night.

[1321] And it's not easy.

[1322] He's collecting branches and palm leaves for his shelter, but he's exhausted, of course, and he's trying to conserve whatever food he has left and whatever energy he has left, but it's all going pretty fast.

[1323] Yeah.

[1324] Then he discovers a nearby stream.

[1325] Oh.

[1326] And so his lucky street continues.

[1327] is now he has something close by to keep him while hydrated.

[1328] He doesn't have to just wait for a terrain.

[1329] So he stays at the crash site for the next couple of days, watching the gap in the palm trees.

[1330] Little by little, he watches as the gap closes as the palms shift back to their original position.

[1331] Oh, no. Wow.

[1332] Yeah, he knows he's running out of time.

[1333] Isn't that dark?

[1334] That is so crazy.

[1335] So in the outside world, the search for Antonio is fully on.

[1336] As Marin, the researcher wrote, it is fully on.

[1337] Amerin.

[1338] Polly.

[1339] Antonio's friends have posted a $10 ,000 Real Reward, which is the equivalent of $2 ,000 in American dollars.

[1340] Okay.

[1341] And that's just for anyone that has any information of how to help the rescue efforts.

[1342] And in the small city of Santa Rame, sorry about the pronunciation, Santa Rame, the Brazilian Air Force sets up a base for their search and rescue flights.

[1343] So when rainfall is too heavy, they can't take off.

[1344] So local people volunteer their time and their vehicles to, like, help in the search, which is no small sacrifice because driving through that hostile terrain in the jungle basically destroys most of their tires.

[1345] Oh, wow.

[1346] And the volunteers never ask for replacement or reimbursement.

[1347] They just want to help get this lost pilot home, which is pretty beautiful and a pretty huge sacrifice.

[1348] So now, Tiago and Mariana arrive at the Air Force.

[1349] base to help with the search after a very long journey that involves, quote, a flight, a boat, rough roads, and more than seven hours of travel.

[1350] Shit.

[1351] Yeah.

[1352] And then it turns out it takes all that time they arrive on Antonio's birthday.

[1353] Aww.

[1354] Mariana, of course, is posting on social media and the Brazilian press and public hang on every word.

[1355] The hunt for Antonio now becomes a topic of national interest.

[1356] So Antonio has now been stranded for five days in the rainforest.

[1357] He's low on food.

[1358] He's forced to begin scavenging.

[1359] He's surrounded by unfamiliar vegetation, and he knows he has to be very, very careful.

[1360] Because after five days in the forest, he's really weak.

[1361] So if he just goes and eats the first thing he finds, and it happens to be poisonous or in any way toxic, he might not recover.

[1362] He can't just get sick and throw up.

[1363] He knows that it's too.

[1364] risky.

[1365] So he does something so ingenious.

[1366] He starts watching the evil little spider monkeys.

[1367] And he watches to see what they're doing.

[1368] Up until now, they've been a pain in the ass.

[1369] Suddenly, they're a godsend because he watches as they pull these bright pink shells from the surrounding trees and tear them open and eat the fruit inside.

[1370] Yes.

[1371] And so Antonio doesn't know this.

[1372] This is a jungle fruit called bro, bro.

[1373] And he's never seen it before, but he figures the monkeys are eating it.

[1374] Yeah.

[1375] So he scavenges for that and he starts eating it.

[1376] And as he is scavenging for it, he hears a noise up above that gets closer and closer.

[1377] And he's afraid that he's delirious and exhausted.

[1378] So he freezes for a second, but he knows it's unmistakable, especially to a pilot, it's the sound of an airplane.

[1379] Oh my God, I thought it was going to be a spider monkey jumping on him.

[1380] This is where the airplane spider comes in.

[1381] What?

[1382] Antonio drops everything.

[1383] All of his precious jungle fruits, he drops on the ground, and he runs full speed back to the crash site to stand in what remains of the little window opening to the sky.

[1384] Basically, by this point, the palms have almost entirely recovered to their original position, but there's still a tiny gap up there.

[1385] So he jumps up and down, waves, screams, does everything.

[1386] everything he can.

[1387] And then he watches the airplane just pass over the little window in the canopy and it doesn't see him.

[1388] And just as clearly as he heard that plane coming, he listened to it go.

[1389] Ouch.

[1390] So that plane was sent by the Brazilian Air Force.

[1391] They routinely give five days for a search and rescue mission in the Amazon.

[1392] And then past that point, they figure there'll probably be no one left to rescue.

[1393] That's how impossible it is for a regular...

[1394] I dave.

[1395] Plain old humans to survive in the jungle.

[1396] Wow.

[1397] And also, it's not cheap to fly search and rescue missions in the air.

[1398] But on this search, they do budge a little, because Mariana and Tiago are there, they beg them to continue searching.

[1399] And so the mission gets extended another day and then another, but still there's no sign of Antonio or the his Cessna.

[1400] Then a rescue plane spots something white that seems out of place on the forest floor, and they think it could be an airplane wing, so the Air Force dispatches a helicopter to go in for a closer look.

[1401] But when the helicopter zooms in on the object, they radio back.

[1402] It's just a white rapid in the Amazon River.

[1403] They were mistaken.

[1404] So assuming Antonio was probably killed in either the crash or in trying to survive in the jungle, the Air Force ends their search efforts after eight days.

[1405] But Mariana and Tiago are staying put.

[1406] Tiago says, quote, we always said we just had to find something.

[1407] It didn't matter if he was alive or dead.

[1408] We just couldn't live with the doubt.

[1409] So they're basically just waiting for some sort of confirmation of anything, just not in that weird in -between stage.

[1410] So for days, Antonio hears the rescue planes overhead.

[1411] He tries his best to find new gaps in the tree line where he jumps and yells and does all he can to make himself visible.

[1412] He is never spotted.

[1413] After a few days, Antonio stops hearing the planes altogether, and he gives up hope that he'll be rescued by air, but he starts to consider he could find help on foot.

[1414] It's so hard to find me this way.

[1415] So maybe if I start moving, I can find somebody who's looking for me. Yeah.

[1416] So he starts hiking.

[1417] So he's now been in the rainforest over a week.

[1418] His phone is now dead.

[1419] He still has his wristwatch.

[1420] And so basically he just makes up a daily routine, which we know in all these survival stories, that is really key.

[1421] You start making up a routine of how you're going to go through your days and you have short -term and long -term goals and you start, your focus is on surviving.

[1422] So this is Antonio's.

[1423] He spends the early morning hours hiking and he orientes himself using the position of the sun because everything around him, it's just so thick and dense.

[1424] He sometimes has to cut through vines and trees just to get a glimpse.

[1425] of sunlight and see where he is, like where the sun is in the sky.

[1426] And so basically, once he does that for a little while, he starts to, he can figure out what direction he's going.

[1427] So he starts heading east because he's pretty sure that's where the river is.

[1428] Okay.

[1429] And so he's, that's, his goal is if he finds the river, he can walk along it and that will eventually bring him to civilization, essentially.

[1430] Which is the truth.

[1431] And we've heard this in a bunch of survival stories, you get to the biggest body of water and walk along it and there will be people there at some point.

[1432] Totally.

[1433] But walking along the river isn't as easy, breezy as it sounds because, of course, it's all swampy water next to the river.

[1434] So he has to walk through swamps, basically.

[1435] He's dodging tree limbs.

[1436] And he also has to keep an eye out for alligators who like to sit real still and look like logs.

[1437] No, no. And wait for you right next to the river.

[1438] Oh, no. Yeah.

[1439] This is what he does every day until noon, and then from noon till three, he looks for a place to build a campsite.

[1440] And when he does build his campsite, he always goes inland a little bit, ideally somewhere elevated, because he knows from his survival training that predators like jaguars and anacondas.

[1441] Fuck.

[1442] This is what he's dealing with.

[1443] No. Yeah.

[1444] Yeah.

[1445] Just a jaguar could happen by.

[1446] They stake out low -lying areas near water when they're hunting.

[1447] So he knows he has to be.

[1448] be away from that a little bit and ideally up high.

[1449] And then he gathers palm fronds and tree branches and makes his shelter.

[1450] So he is protection from the rain.

[1451] Okay.

[1452] So then for the rest of the day, he sleeps, or rests as best he can.

[1453] And then in the morning hours of the next day, he repeats this routine from the top.

[1454] And he does that again the next day and the next day.

[1455] Now an entire month has passed since his plane has crashed.

[1456] He survived a month in the Amazon rainforest.

[1457] Oh, my.

[1458] What is he eating?

[1459] What is he?

[1460] Oh, my God.

[1461] He's eating his little spider monkey fruits.

[1462] Oh, my God.

[1463] Yeah.

[1464] Okay, so at this point, but it's a good point you bring up.

[1465] He is totally weak and exhausted.

[1466] His body's been pushed to the brink.

[1467] His main source of food are those pink -shelled fruits that he's been on the lookout for.

[1468] Although, like, one day he found three bird eggs and ate those, but that was, like, just barely enough protein to get.

[1469] get him going.

[1470] Also, that's one of my greatest fears to be stuck somewhere and you have to eat raw bird eggs.

[1471] It's so gross.

[1472] The bigger, the worse, that you think?

[1473] I'd just be like, you can have it.

[1474] It's a terrible thought.

[1475] It's so awful.

[1476] But with all the walking and the physical activity that he's doing, he's always starving.

[1477] Nothing he eats is ever enough.

[1478] By day 35 in the jungle, Antonio hasn't eaten for three whole days.

[1479] He thinks his body's giving out.

[1480] He starts to reckon with the horrifying fact that despite all of his perseverance, his courage, his luck, and his strength, that he probably isn't going to survive or make it out of the rainforest alive.

[1481] Then he hears a new sound.

[1482] And I like to think that these things happen right back to back, right?

[1483] When he was like, I'm too weak, I can't go on.

[1484] And he's like, what's this noise?

[1485] And what it was, it wasn't a spooky jungle sound and it was not an airplane.

[1486] He listens closely and realizes it's a chainsaw, which means there's people somewhere nearby.

[1487] Oh my God.

[1488] Yeah, but who knows where, right?

[1489] Right.

[1490] And who knows who, because as we already said, there's a lot of people doing illegal shit out there that they're not supposed to be doing.

[1491] So you don't just want to run up on a camp somewhere.

[1492] Sure.

[1493] On a guy with a chainsaw.

[1494] Yeah.

[1495] Oh, my God.

[1496] It's leather face.

[1497] from Texas Chainsaw Massacre, just out.

[1498] That's the newest version of Texas Chainsaw Massacre as he's just killing people in the Amazon rainforest who are trying just to survive.

[1499] Yeah, they're just trying to.

[1500] And then that guy with this terrible mask.

[1501] Okay.

[1502] So the chainsaw sounds very far away and daylight is fading.

[1503] And Antonio knows he can't risk getting turned around in the rainforest at night and getting lost.

[1504] Yeah.

[1505] He's so weak, he figures that basically if he got lost at this point, it would kill him.

[1506] So he settles in for the evening and he prays that he'll hear that same chainsaw again in the morning.

[1507] Spoiler alert, he does.

[1508] He does.

[1509] Yay, it's a survival story.

[1510] Antonio wakes up early in the morning and he follows his same routine.

[1511] He orientes himself toward the sun.

[1512] He walks toward the river.

[1513] But now he follows the river and the sound of the chainsaw.

[1514] Yay.

[1515] As it gets closer and closer, Antonio sees something breaking up the dense forest landscape.

[1516] It's a white tarp.

[1517] and beyond the tarp, he can make out the distinct shape of a human being.

[1518] Fuck yeah, human beings.

[1519] Yay, humans.

[1520] Antonio is drained.

[1521] He's delirious and he's on death's doorstep.

[1522] Marin, the alliteration.

[1523] What alliteration.

[1524] He's losing his vision and most of his body is cramping up.

[1525] But seeing another person for the first time in over a month gives him this jolt of adrenaline and sends him walking right through the swamp water.

[1526] across the river and over to where he sees the tarp.

[1527] Wow.

[1528] So now his clothes are soaking wet and hanging off of his body, and he cautiously approaches the man who's near the tarp.

[1529] He doesn't want to spook him, and he doesn't want to threaten him.

[1530] Yeah.

[1531] And when the man finally sees him, he's visibly startled at the sight of this dirty, gaunt man who seems to just have materialized out of the jungle.

[1532] but he isn't met with hostility or violence.

[1533] Instead, the man asks him how he can help him.

[1534] And Antonio sees a large bucket of Brazilian nut shells sitting beside the man and realizes that he is a Brazil nut forager that's out there harvesting, and that means he's not a threat.

[1535] And then he realizes this means he's saved.

[1536] Yay.

[1537] So this man gives him two chestnuts and then goes to find the leader of his foraging group whose name is Maria Jorge Dos Santos -Tavarez.

[1538] She has five decades of experience collecting nuts in the Amazon to forage and sell back home.

[1539] Just like Antonio, Maria and her crew came to the jungle to make a living, but their work is sustainable and doesn't harm the forest.

[1540] And it's also been a very important revenue stream for Maria.

[1541] She lost her husband during the pandemic.

[1542] So her whole family is grieving.

[1543] then they realize that's a whole other income that they've lost.

[1544] They have to get back out there.

[1545] So the only reason they were that far into the rainforest is because they knew they had to make their haul that year.

[1546] Their harvest had to be way bigger so that they could make more money because they lost their husband and father.

[1547] So it's just more fate that served Antonio because they normally would not have been that deep in the forest.

[1548] Wow, that is wild.

[1549] Yeah.

[1550] So Maria finds Antonio a change.

[1551] of clothes, gives him hot milk and crackers, which he eats in tiny bites.

[1552] And then she gives him multiple spoonfuls of salt.

[1553] Brilliant.

[1554] So smart.

[1555] That's what you need.

[1556] Electrolites.

[1557] Yeah.

[1558] While he rests, Maria radios her daughter Miriam, who lives in the city and has access to a phone.

[1559] And she instructs her daughter to reach out to Antonio's siblings to tell them that he's still alive.

[1560] But when Miriam gets in touch with Tiago and Mariana, they can't believe it literally.

[1561] At this point, It's been over a month since their brother's plane went down.

[1562] And, of course, they want him to be alive, but they lost hope that he would be coming back safely.

[1563] And they're really afraid this is a hoax.

[1564] Oh, shit.

[1565] Or some sort of a scam.

[1566] So Miriam puts their call on speakerphone, and then she gets her mother, Maria, on the radio.

[1567] And Miriam mediates the conversation, basically.

[1568] Then I made a note.

[1569] Miriam has to do everything.

[1570] So first she asks her mother to give Antonio's full name and birthday, but that doesn't actually convince the siblings.

[1571] So Tiago asks for something that's decidedly ungooglable, which is the name of Antonio's dog.

[1572] And then over the radio, they hear a soft, they hear their brother say, Goncho, which is his dog's name.

[1573] They're overcome with joy, relief, disbelief.

[1574] Tiago actually throws his phone down onto the ground and then goes out into the town square and just starts shouting for joy.

[1575] Mariana's actually speechless.

[1576] She's having a really hard time accepting that it's real because it's just so unbelievable.

[1577] I mean, the idea that most rescuers expect people to survive at the most five days.

[1578] And this is now 38 days later.

[1579] Holy shit.

[1580] It's so crazy.

[1581] So soon a police helicopter arrives at the foragers camp to bring Antonio home.

[1582] Maria sends him off and then returns to the forest to continue her work.

[1583] Can't mess around because you still got to bring in that harvest.

[1584] Back at it.

[1585] Rescuing human beings doesn't make you any money.

[1586] When Antonio lands in Santa Rame, he sees his brother and sister waiting for him at the base along with a crowd of reporters and just well -wishers, people that are just thrilled he's back.

[1587] He runs to his siblings and holds them tight, saying through his tears, I did this for you.

[1588] I survived for you.

[1589] So Antonio Saina's incredible story of survival turns him into a national hero in Brazil where people were definitely in need of a story with a happy ending.

[1590] And when all was said and done, Antonio walked 17 miles over 36 days in the jungle and he lost an astonishing 55 pounds.

[1591] Holy shit.

[1592] Uh -huh.

[1593] Tests performed by doctors later determined that Antonio experienced muscle loss on the level of someone running a marathon every other day.

[1594] Oh, my God.

[1595] That's how hard he was working in that, to survive that rainforest.

[1596] Antonio's journey reignited the conversation around illegal mining and the Brazilian Amazon with Antonio himself, vowing to never work for wildcat miners again because of his renewed appreciation for the rainforest, saying, quote, a lot of people said, I beat the forest, but I just walked past it.

[1597] and she supported me. She gave me water and food.

[1598] She is the sustenance of the chestnut trees who saved me. To be found by a family of nut pickers who don't harm the forest in any way, it's beautiful.

[1599] It was magical for me. Oh, wow.

[1600] And that is the incredible rainforest survival story of Antonio Sena.

[1601] Damn.

[1602] That is wild.

[1603] I can't believe he survived 38 freaking days.

[1604] He just kept walking.

[1605] He just kept doing it.

[1606] Guys, you're always going to end up somewhere else, so just keep walking.

[1607] High ground.

[1608] High ground.

[1609] Look out for alligators.

[1610] Yeah.

[1611] Watch the spider monkeys.

[1612] I've always told you that, George.

[1613] I've always told you that.

[1614] You've had every football season, you remind me to watch those spider monkeys, and I appreciate you for it.

[1615] When I get down and out, because those, the old jaguars are being beaten by the pirates, You always say to me. Every season when the Steely Dan's are losing, and I'm heartbroken over it.

[1616] To the beautiful lip tints.

[1617] That's right.

[1618] To the Sephora Stranglers.

[1619] Thanks for listening, you guys.

[1620] We appreciate you as always.

[1621] You are our...

[1622] Go ahead.

[1623] I was going to say Amazon rainforest.

[1624] What were you going to say?

[1625] A special angel.

[1626] Oh, yeah.

[1627] You're our angel investor.

[1628] You're our secret investor in our Brazilian nut company.

[1629] That's right.

[1630] And we appreciate you so much for that specific thing.

[1631] Thank you.

[1632] And we, yes, thank you for buying our nuts all these years.

[1633] Guys, are you ready for some football?

[1634] That's the new sign -off.

[1635] And we got sued.

[1636] And immediately sued.

[1637] And just saying the words get you sued.

[1638] And the podcast is over.

[1639] And you are done.

[1640] That of all the things.

[1641] that you thought we're going to end you.

[1642] It's the NFL.

[1643] Wow.

[1644] Stay sexy.

[1645] And don't get murdered.

[1646] Goodbye.

[1647] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1648] This has been an exactly right production.

[1649] Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Kreiton.

[1650] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1651] This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris.

[1652] Our researchers are Marin McClashon and Gemma Harris.

[1653] Email your hometowns and fucking hooray to my favorite murder at gmail .com.

[1654] Follow the show and Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[1655] Goodbye.

[1656] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

[1657] If you like what you hear, rate and review the show.

[1658] Visit exactly right store .com to purchase my favorite murder merch.